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kiwi's Love at
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First like Finn we're making
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[Music]
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waves generate switch online
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[Music]
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today Lance bu welcome to my podcast
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yeah it's great to be here I just love
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this setup that is absolutely amazing
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you said come for a chat I'm like okay
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okay for a chat look at this you want to
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see it from where I'm seeing it it's
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just this lights camera action dog well
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yeah I've had a glow up I've um moved
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from um a studio at home which has been
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great but this is um sort of Next Level
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and it's so good to have you here as one
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of the first guests in my new studio
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fascinating guy fascinating guy so um
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yeah three very distinct chapters to the
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Lance bit story right so um there's the
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Lance the Builder which is like you from
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when you left school to the age of 35 uh
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then 22 years in the police doing just
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about every job imaginable and and with
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your permission that'll make a big part
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of this um conversation and then since
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then um the third chapter um your own
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company War which is Wellness awareness
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resilience and negotiation what what
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does that mean exactly what's War yeah
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so it was one of those um 3:00 a.m. in
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the morning when you wake up and go I
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know one of those epiphanies you have
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and you think um you start a company and
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you think yeah I wish I hadn't have done
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that really cuz what is warned like warn
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warn everybody but um it's it's so we
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mainly our focus on Neuroscience so I
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fell into Neuroscience when I was
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recovering from depression and uh I read
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a book and another book and then I just
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started to prolifically read and then I
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read this one book uh by Daniel Arman
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called change your brain change your
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life and that's where I discovered
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neuroscience and it made sense it was
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practical uh it was easier to understand
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how the brain works and I just started
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there um and then you know stepped
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forward very quickly to the end of my
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police career and my I said I don't know
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what I want to do but I'm not staying
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here this place is destructive and um
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I've had enough of it and um and so my
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wife said well you always like to stand
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in front of people why don't you do that
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for a living um as you know work in uh
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contact centers so that's sort of how I
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started and then from there it's just gr
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to this wonderful business where I get
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to help people and and do some amazing
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things yeah well you're um I mean you're
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in your your late 60s now um and you're
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just such a wel no one's ever described
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it like that late 60
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late
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mid you're in great shape for your age
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and um just the um the the wealth of
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knowledge that you've got from your
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careers and uh and and also you know
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personal experience um you know it's
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great to have you here to um you know
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tap into thank you who you are um you've
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got a brand new book out too anxiety is
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a worry understanding and managing anx
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anxiety yes yes so anxiety underpins or
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who we are as as a species really uh
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we're sort of the only species that
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recognizes that uh we have a finite time
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most animals don't so we're an animal
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animals don't realize that they they
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could die at any moment we do and we
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don't know how long that time span is um
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and that sort of sets us up for when am
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I going to die but that's how anxious
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people think other people don't think
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that way
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and so um it's been a journey of
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Discovery I guess a selfish journey of
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of writing three books one was to put my
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police career into perspective um and
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it's a great cathartic thing to do uh
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the the this next book that came out was
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dark side of the brain it was going to
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be a funny thing so I I started to
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realize that um our brain makes [ __ ] up
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but just makes [ __ ] up right all the
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time it's continually we continually
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talking to our while we're talking your
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comp in yourself to myself and I'm
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comparing what you're saying to me and
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we we've already thought of a couple of
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things in the future the brain is just
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crazy and I started to think about that
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and I was going to call it our [ __ ]
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brain and then unfortunately we lost our
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niece to um suicide yeah at the age of
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17 yeah at the age of 17 and so because
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of that um I thought I'd change it into
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a a book that could help people and so
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um in the my police career as the lead
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crisis negotiator for New Zealand Police
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um suicide intervention was a specialty
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and so um I changed it around and so
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people loved it and then this third book
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was one I never set to write and I was
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asked by the um publisher to do it and
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so I did um first year not so good
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second year third year fourth year of
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writing it I that I really became
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engaged with it and thought this is
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going to help people and so it's quite a
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um it's a robust book right so it's not
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something that I'd normally want to do
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uh but hopefully it'll help people as
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much as
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possible yeah the um the death of your
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niece uh to Suicide um when was that
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what year was
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that oh you're putting me on the spot
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here it must be four or five years ago
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now yeah easily I'm really might even be
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more than that yeah and I I want to know
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um what sort of impact that had on your
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personally because as you mentioned you
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were the um police crisis negotiator for
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13 years and uh in terms of like talking
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people down suicide people down you you
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never lost someone um yeah on your watch
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very lucky so um yeah so with your niece
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like what's s of impct oh it slapped you
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around um well apart from the actual
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loss of you know a person of a human you
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do have doubts about I had doubts about
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my job and about my work um as it
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happened a week before um she took her
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own life was she was at um a gig that I
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did so a from the same family uh one of
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the other uh nieces had um cancer had
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terminal cancer so I I ran a uh a free
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presentation essentially for the uh for
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her so with donations and um we made
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some money so she could get some uh life
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longing you know make it little
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longevity even her life um and she was
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there the young one and uh and we'd had
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a discussion about a few things but you
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know to me she looked okay and then one
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morning we get this my wife gets this
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phone call I heard this horrible scream
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and it still sends chills down my spine
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and uh and then you know it's tearing up
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now um sorry it's just a hellish thing
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sometimes I wake up on a Saturday
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morning and I think oh why uh and I
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started to think what why should I
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should I do this job should I help
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people should I be there you know I
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started the second guess and then I just
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took time and went well you can only
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help who you can help and you you know
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to be there at the right time is so
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difficult and I never ever have never
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thought that it's a weakness in anybody
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you hear people talking that don't know
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it's a weakness or selfish it's selfish
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you know well it's not it's the most
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selfless thing you'll ever do I had
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ideations thoughts of suicide
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myself um and they're
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fleeting they but they get they increase
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so the voice that was once our friend as
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a child turns on us as a teenager and
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starts to go hey you know you're not as
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good as the other ones you know you're
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not as good as you know you're not as
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you know you should have you and you
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think where's where's my friend gone and
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then when you get really down struggled
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that this voice becomes well I'll tell
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you what uh here's the way
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out and it it'll just you know you and
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it does it it says to you you're a
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burden you're hurting people by being
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here this this thing is it's never
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talked about I talk about it and um and
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you know when I went to the funeral I
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was um I was really upset uh because I
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wasn't allowed to talk about because it
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was she was still at high school and
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there was high school people there are
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no schools no we don't talk about this
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stuff uh and having researched it and
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realized you know the actual talking
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about it bringing it out into the open
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is how you help people and you know uh
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so all I could say was this is not who
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she is or who she was this is just what
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happened yeah sad the way because
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ultimately if that's the way you choose
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to exit that's sort of what defines your
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life it's the it's the full stop on the
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end and that's the problem right and
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that's you know um another one that just
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passed about a year ago M Holland um I I
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spent time with him Dr mahand and U Tom
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Tom yeah I always call him Dr mahand uh
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I spent uh 4 and 1 half hours driving um
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I drove him and I in a rental car from
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uh we were in denan and we had to get
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across to I think Gore or somewhere
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anyway over the other side like 4-Hour
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Drive I've never laughed so much in all
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my life uh we got on like house on fire
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we just and I thought this guy is such a
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cool guy and then you know he gets this
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diagnosis of a bit of a heart problem
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and then same thing would have happened
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to him he's just catastrophized he's
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just gone and fallen over you know and
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and he was a big advocate of of looking
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after people it's a poor old doctor yeah
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Dr Tom he even wrote a book I've got a
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book at home yeah I've got he wrote two
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yeah and he signed one for me how's
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how's your in a voice these days uh it's
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it's actually
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changed um I ignore it do you how do you
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do is that mindfulness or um no it's
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just learning that um it's there it's so
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it's there to keep us safe is is the
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biggest thing right so that's what we've
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got to realize and but we have to be um
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so our the rational part of our brain
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doesn't fully develop until our mid 20s
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but up until that point um we believe
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what we tell ourself and it is real
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right so as a child um I was punished at
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school um ADHD was was what not was not
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know and then you're just like a bad kid
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orid that just just you had to sit in
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the corner and and you know shut up and
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um but it would always say to me you're
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different to everybody else you know
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you'll never have a true friend you'll
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never have it but it was always sort of
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there just to comfort and then it sort
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of changes around but when we get to our
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mid 20s we can sort of rationalize it
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provided uh we have support around us
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and we learn about ourselves the most
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important thing I would suggest all of
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us can do is learn about ourselves go
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back to your childhood go back if you
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got report cards go back and and and
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discover how you grew up what were those
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trying times and what did you learn from
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them because you always do so um I
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learned that uh I would never be I would
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never have a lifelong friend because
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that's not how I see Life um you know
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I've got lots of good friends but I
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never see them as lifelong friends
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because uh for me it's people come and
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go it's just the way the makeup of my
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own brain um I'm so fortunate to have a
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beautiful wife who who you know don't
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know 9080 we got married so whatever
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that is 4 years 44 um and you know it's
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been a journey and a half but wow we
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we're at such a cool place now you so
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she's my lifelong friend but you know
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going back to your when you're at school
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you know you see these movies where life
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is supposed to be this this whole like a
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movie where you've got a childhood
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friend and they stay your friend for
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life now life's not like that so when
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you understand yourself and how you
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manage things and how you deal with it I
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now um I still have down times um I've
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been going through quite a bit the year
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with um with with pain through injuries
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uh mainly but lots of pain um through
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mismanagement of um of um
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Pharmaceuticals and that not from me but
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from you know on the wrong stuff to keep
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me alive and it's caused lots of pain
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and a couple of injuries and so you get
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low point but it's just a matter of
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going and I sat down I actually wrote a
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post while I was down and I said I'm not
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feeling real good this is what D this is
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what's going on in my life hey um I feel
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better now so here's what you do you sit
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down and you write about it and show
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them all the research and science around
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it so you can get through this stuff
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right but it takes some time and some
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work and a lot of us if you're in a bad
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place you get tired it's just you get
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tired you just don't have the energy
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right the energy is gone energy is
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sapped um you you fight you fight so
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it's extreme fight or flight right so
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you fight and you fight and you fight
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and you fight and you think no I'm not
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going to succumb I'm going to stay I'm
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going to stay and then it's some point
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these fleeting little well actually
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there's a flea here there's a little way
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out and it just and then we start to
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believe it and we believe and when we
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don't want to share so we insulate now
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that's a self- protection mechanism uh
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out of fear fear of what others will
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think fear of of being dismissed fear of
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not taking it seriously all that stuff
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and we yeah really it is it's it's about
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reaching out I did a um we've got a free
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video out online at the moment and uh I
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think we call it when there's no one
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else and so it's for when you're at 3:00
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in the morning 4 in the morning and you
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think there's no one around just play
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the video and just see that there is
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someone there um and get in touch
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tomorrow cuz I'll be there for you at
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some stage you know and and know that
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you're not alone in that your journey
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I'd go used to go and get up wake in the
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middle of the night and go and stand out
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in the middle of the road um s Jamies
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and just look up and down the street to
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see if there was lights on there's
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someone else awake they probably weren't
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was probably a security
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light probably somebody scared as hell
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in the dark was somebody that fell
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asleep drunk with the light on yeah the
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TV still going but for me that was
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enough to know that somebody else was
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there right um and so yeah it's a it's a
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being a quite a quite a journey I'd say
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um but understanding yourself if you
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know if I was to plead to anyone out
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there go and look back in your past and
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and take from not the bad take the good
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take the what the you don't learn from
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things when you're in it you must go
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back to the things in your past and
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learn from those uh number one uh you
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can make amends if if you can't make
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amends because it's going to hurt
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someone then you should not make amends
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you should suck it up but you learn and
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never to do that again and you learn
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what can I be a better self and if you
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can do that every day yeah that you know
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if we all had such a great life it was
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if life was all such full of roses and
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it it would just be life you've got to
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have the Downs to have the UPS yeah yeah
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yeah yeah it's it's an impossible
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illusion to be happy all the time right
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you can't be it's impossible so so for
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you um it was 1999 so s years into your
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policing career that you you um suffered
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depression for the first time um so you
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would have been actually probably
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similar journey to me I think you were
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like early to mid 40s did it was was
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there an incident did it just sort of
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happen or did it creep up on you well it
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actually sort of creeps up there's a
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whole lot of things when I go back to it
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you know I I mismanaged myself um not
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taking leave so um I like to bank things
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I like to save money I like to save
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leave so I had uh 7 months leave duw
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jeus uh wow I was living just in case
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right just in case it rained so that's
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from my Builder days you know you work
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every single day in case it rains simple
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as that because I might not get paid
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today and so I T took my police career
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the same way and it was a whole number
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of things with the c with the final uh
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being when my mom died um I was at her
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house the day before and she said um do
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you want to have a cup of tea and I said
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no I'm
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busy and she died that next day and I
00:16:05
never got to say goodbye well I did but
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you know she wouldn't have known and and
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that just just tipped tipped me over the
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edge and um I didn't deal with it in
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fact I was back at work within a day uh
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that's my way of dealing with stuff was
00:16:17
just to keep working um wrong you know
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we think we're bulletproof we're not it
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always happens to somebody else we just
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need to toughen up we that's all
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bollocks that's all bollock [ __ ]
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[ __ ] you know it's just rubbish um we
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must grieve we must shout we must cry we
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must hate the world you have to you have
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to go through that hole and it's not a
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linear it's not in this circle they talk
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about it's a pile like a birds nest the
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pile of poo that you've got to go
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through and that's every minute of your
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life you'll be up and down and all over
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the place but you have to express it you
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have to get it out of your head because
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to keep it inside nothing good happens
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in the
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dark yeah yeah um a previous podcast
00:17:00
guest I've had on a couple of times
00:17:01
who's been through his own mental health
00:17:03
struggles Um Zack Gord the former yeah
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um his saying as um which he loves is
00:17:07
Secrets make you sick yeah they do yeah
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so was there a moment that you realized
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you needed help uh yeah there
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was it came as a rush I was um I was
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photocopy at Oakland Central police
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station the old building not the one
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that's just over the road here um four
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stories up and damn it photocopies are
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made by men aren't they to break down so
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we can make more money to come and fix
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it and I think I was a detective senior
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sergeant that point getting paid a huge
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salary to go and photocopy a file and I
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just kept jamming and I just and I was
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in a bad place and I looked out the
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window and this voice you must go higher
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you need to go higher something like
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that you need to go
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higher and I just and I could feel the
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BL just the blood just drained because
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I'd just become a crisis negotiator and
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was knew what ideation was and I went
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[ __ ] I'm having a thought of suicide I
00:18:07
want to be here so straight down the
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stairs and I I I reached out to our
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welfare who who are very very good but
00:18:14
you know of course they're busy um and
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so I just went and talked to a um to a
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padre who every Friday at or police this
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P used to come through and he'd spend
00:18:25
time with every person on all seven
00:18:27
floors just chatting what's Padre Padre
00:18:29
like a a minister okay a church Minister
00:18:31
yeah they call him padr in the in the
00:18:32
military and and the police and so I
00:18:35
went and had a chat to him about it and
00:18:36
he said well come on and we had you know
00:18:37
prayed and things he said but you are
00:18:39
going to need to get some pretty good
00:18:40
solid help mate um it's been good you've
00:18:43
come to me let's get your yourself fixed
00:18:45
up and I did and uh I'd like to say it
00:18:48
was a wonderful Journey it's a it's hard
00:18:50
work but there's one thing I discover
00:18:52
You Must Believe In
00:18:54
Yourself there's one thing that that
00:18:57
keeps you going and that is you your
00:18:59
true self this [ __ ] voice is not you
00:19:03
it's not who you are it's a part of what
00:19:07
designed you across your life your true
00:19:09
self is here hence the the badge right
00:19:13
the heart will always overcome the brain
00:19:15
you've just got a what do you love it's
00:19:17
called your hook so that's one thing I
00:19:19
always worked with when we dealing with
00:19:21
people who are um
00:19:23
suicidal um what's keep you going and
00:19:27
that's your hook and you just keep
00:19:28
focusing on that and you push through
00:19:30
that because if you don't it it will
00:19:33
happen so so quickly and you just have
00:19:34
no control over it yeah [ __ ] I had a
00:19:37
similar sort of experience probably
00:19:38
about the same age as
00:19:40
you early to mid 40s I guess and um you
00:19:43
know you start to like weighing up the
00:19:44
pros and cons and um there were times
00:19:48
where where the only reason for staying
00:19:51
I could think of is this little dog on
00:19:52
the ground I thought like humans that I
00:19:55
know and that I know love me it's like
00:19:57
I'll be doing them a favor and they'll
00:19:58
be
00:19:59
understand he wouldn't then I had a
00:20:01
friend that um took his own life in a
00:20:02
very a very violent way and um I saw a
00:20:06
lot of myself and and him and the type
00:20:08
of person he was and I thought sh if he
00:20:09
could reach this point where this seems
00:20:11
like the best option to make in that
00:20:12
moment so could I and that's what um
00:20:15
that was the Catalyst for me to get
00:20:17
professional help yeah that was actually
00:20:19
I I was scared of therapy and I don't
00:20:21
know why I put it off for so long but it
00:20:22
was one of the best things I've ever
00:20:23
done like I thought I was when you're
00:20:25
having these thoughts like especially
00:20:27
like your niece at 17 seems like it's
00:20:29
the sort of danger age right it is it's
00:20:31
the biggest growth period in the brain
00:20:32
is in the teenage years yeah so there
00:20:34
our brain grows bigger than when we were
00:20:36
first born so when you're a grown ass
00:20:39
man like us you think you're out of the
00:20:41
danger zone and then no no it's like
00:20:43
it's like anything right it's life will
00:20:45
come and hit you uh it is it is a yeah
00:20:49
um I'll never go there again and neither
00:20:51
will you I'll tell you that right now um
00:20:54
and you do have to go back there though
00:20:56
to that dark place uh and to to learn
00:20:58
from it so what I talk about these days
00:21:00
so um we've got to change the narrative
00:21:04
on what we talk about so I I I You' got
00:21:08
this debrief I run people through and I
00:21:09
talk them about you must talk about
00:21:11
something within six hours right so when
00:21:13
something happens to you with you've got
00:21:15
six-hour window to talk with somebody
00:21:17
about it because otherwise the memory
00:21:19
starts to set in your in your brain in
00:21:22
your HPP campus well it starts your
00:21:24
short term then overnight goes into your
00:21:25
long term and so you got 6 hours to talk
00:21:27
about what happened how you felt now our
00:21:30
memory is held by two things it's held
00:21:32
by repetition or the emotion at the time
00:21:35
so our longest strongest memories are
00:21:38
because we're in our most emotional
00:21:39
state at the
00:21:41
time negative so whenever the amydala
00:21:44
Sparks up and the brain is designed to
00:21:46
look for danger to avoid it that's what
00:21:49
it's designed to do right so we we look
00:21:51
for risk and then go no I'm not now we
00:21:53
got to learn to go back there so that's
00:21:55
how you felt if you talk about how you
00:21:56
felt about something you get the emotion
00:21:58
out which reduces the mark in your
00:22:00
memory and so you're not going to be
00:22:02
impacted by it the next stage of that is
00:22:04
going to a form more formal one what
00:22:06
happened second time what did you do
00:22:07
well what would you do differently next
00:22:09
time that's how you learn the third part
00:22:11
is a psychological debrief EAP um so I
00:22:15
in a a workshop I say right hands up
00:22:17
who's had physio all proud right I say
00:22:20
you've all had
00:22:22
therapy I want I want to film it one day
00:22:25
cuz they go what are you talking about
00:22:28
um well well it's called physiotherapy
00:22:30
what do they do they find the part that
00:22:32
hurts and they push on it why because
00:22:34
they love
00:22:35
you they love hurting you no it's
00:22:38
designed to get things moving to get the
00:22:40
energy out what do these people do they
00:22:43
push on the part that hurts so you're
00:22:45
actually going for brain
00:22:46
physio so if we could change the
00:22:49
narrative on that to say you're going
00:22:50
for brain physio how imagine how helpful
00:22:53
imagine imagine how many people would be
00:22:55
lined up at the door I'm going for brain
00:22:57
physio oh yeah yeah my big regret is not
00:22:59
doing it sooner like straight away this
00:23:02
woman put my mind at e you know she said
00:23:03
oh have you had suicidal thoughts and
00:23:05
she said it real not not chalantly and
00:23:07
i' never I hadn't I hadn't told anyone
00:23:08
at that point and I took a deep breath
00:23:10
and I said yes and she just s of
00:23:11
shrugged her shoulders and she goes oh
00:23:13
it's not that big a deal it's nor she
00:23:14
said that's a that's a long way away
00:23:16
from planning it and even she even
00:23:18
planning it it's a long way away from
00:23:19
executing it um and it made me feel um
00:23:22
like a huge weight had been noral right
00:23:24
yeah yeah so when I got a diagnosis of
00:23:26
accumulated stress disorder I was like
00:23:29
oh there must be other people like that
00:23:32
awesome it's no surprise to me that you
00:23:34
became sick like the things that you saw
00:23:36
and did it's crazy and we'll get to that
00:23:39
um yeah but what advice would you have
00:23:40
for anyone who's having suicidal
00:23:42
thoughts or struggling with poor mental
00:23:43
health like right now right now I'm is
00:23:46
to get hold of somebody now A stranger
00:23:47
is better mhm so I recommend the 1737 or
00:23:50
Lifeline a stranger is better and the
00:23:52
reason why I say that is uh they won't
00:23:55
judge you uh they will never be there
00:23:57
for you in the future
00:23:59
whereas your friends may be there for
00:24:00
you in the future or it might push them
00:24:02
away reach out to someone you don't know
00:24:04
reach out to me reach out to you uh and
00:24:07
just talk it's hardest thing you'll ever
00:24:10
do but yet when you start now the reason
00:24:12
we fear that is we fear opening up too
00:24:15
much uh we Fe we won't be able to turn
00:24:17
the tap off lots of other reasons why we
00:24:19
don't want to do it but I'll tell you in
00:24:22
that first and you tell me first
00:24:24
disclosure that you go and you talk
00:24:25
about this stuff don't you come out of
00:24:27
there feeling amazing so much lighter
00:24:30
it's just lighter yeah it's I was dizzy
00:24:32
yeah I was dizzy it was surreal it was
00:24:35
like I was in a movie I went out and
00:24:36
went this is
00:24:38
life it's so normal isn't normal great
00:24:43
you know and for the first time I went
00:24:44
back after that first about a month
00:24:46
later I went back and said for the first
00:24:48
time and I don't know how long I've now
00:24:50
realized I've got an ankle injury and it
00:24:52
hurts there not here or here and it's a
00:24:56
real injury and that's good I'm happy
00:24:58
with that yeah so you've just got to
00:25:01
you've just got to you know so reach out
00:25:02
to somebody talk you don't have to do
00:25:04
talk they've got online so7 37's got
00:25:07
online but yeah just just take that
00:25:09
first step and you watch you'll never
00:25:11
look back but then you and I have an
00:25:13
obligation now don't we to help others
00:25:15
to tell our story so we must yeah
00:25:19
absolutely I I love to it's become like
00:25:21
a Cornerstone of this um this podcast
00:25:22
like talking about mental health and um
00:25:24
I feel bad when like people send me DMS
00:25:27
and praise me for it because I feel like
00:25:28
no you know it was Brave of say s John
00:25:32
Kuan and Mike King to like when when
00:25:35
Kuan came out no one was talking about
00:25:37
this [ __ ] that was a courageous move I
00:25:38
feel like um he's paved the way for the
00:25:40
rest of us yeah look I
00:25:43
I and again I don't want to disrespect
00:25:46
they they all had what majoring careers
00:25:49
but as people like me that had no career
00:25:51
that have done nothing that step up to
00:25:54
the plate and go this is happening for
00:25:55
me too because people will always make
00:25:58
make an excuse oh but yeah they could do
00:26:00
it because they had that and they
00:26:02
they're a named person and they are a
00:26:04
celebrity and they are so therefore
00:26:06
that's why they did it and that's why
00:26:08
they've got all this help around them
00:26:10
whereas in re reality that's not the
00:26:12
case they are people yeah right and
00:26:14
that's the case but having more people
00:26:16
um like Zach you know coming out and
00:26:18
saying this is this is what and then
00:26:20
offering some help some practical
00:26:23
techniques is what we can all do as well
00:26:25
as share our story is is how did we get
00:26:27
better and so if we can do that part of
00:26:30
it cuz I think that's the part that's
00:26:31
missing today is so what did you do to
00:26:34
get yourself
00:26:35
well yeah thanks for that hey um we'll
00:26:38
get into the the um incredible stories
00:26:40
of your police career but first of all I
00:26:42
mentioned on Instagram that Instagram
00:26:43
that you were coming and I've got some
00:26:44
um questions here from um my followers
00:26:47
on Instagram
00:26:48
um Lance has seen and experienced some
00:26:51
horrible things how does he block that
00:26:52
stuff out I just don't remember it I
00:26:55
just purposely block it out yeah it does
00:26:57
come back back every so often
00:27:00
uh there's a book being written by judon
00:27:03
breu I like to promote others as well so
00:27:05
Judson Brewer wrote a book called
00:27:06
unwinding
00:27:07
anxiety and uh I read it and it just
00:27:10
resonated when you push away from on
00:27:12
things your brain holds onto it so don't
00:27:15
push it away sit with it and what you do
00:27:17
is you sit with it and you start to
00:27:18
panic and go into a whole horrible place
00:27:21
and then what I did was I just slowed my
00:27:23
breathing down and then it went away and
00:27:26
the more you do that the less it will
00:27:29
return but um I I still I there's some
00:27:33
parts that I still get um and I still
00:27:35
talk about this one part where you can
00:27:38
never get over uh uh and that is take
00:27:41
going into somebody's home and taking
00:27:43
their baby who's died overnight taking
00:27:45
that to the Mory you never you never get
00:27:48
past that it took me I think four or
00:27:52
five attempts to write that small part
00:27:56
and then I had to go through another
00:27:57
three or four times um again and every
00:28:01
time I'd just break down in tears and
00:28:03
couldn't get through it and I still
00:28:04
can't get through it I I've never read
00:28:05
my book because I don't want to don't
00:28:08
want to relive and Trigger that that
00:28:10
whole emotional experience you know and
00:28:12
when I I looked at the mom and she's
00:28:14
just she's why and I just looked and
00:28:17
said I don't
00:28:19
know all I could think of I'm going to
00:28:22
leave you uh but I'm going to give you a
00:28:24
finite moment so I'll come back in 15
00:28:27
minutes
00:28:30
and then I managed to convince the um
00:28:32
which you're not allowed to do um and I
00:28:34
don't care as I asked the driver of the
00:28:37
of the Mory vehicle to could mom sit in
00:28:41
the front seat with you and be with her
00:28:43
baby to the Mory and he said yeah first
00:28:46
time ever it's ever happened and I just
00:28:48
followed me because there's a whole lot
00:28:50
of stuff around you know the coronal
00:28:52
stuff it has to be security all bollocks
00:28:55
to that how how old was the baby oh just
00:28:58
very very would have been under 6 months
00:28:59
yeah was it just like sudden yeah sudden
00:29:02
infant death yeah s and um yeah you talk
00:29:05
about that length in your book and uh
00:29:08
it's until it's um the cause of death
00:29:10
death is established it needs to be
00:29:11
treated with a certain amount of
00:29:13
Suspicion so you got to ask a bunch of
00:29:15
questions like you know was there a
00:29:17
heater near the baby is there a smoker
00:29:18
in the house is anyone on drugs um and
00:29:21
you sort of
00:29:22
rewrote yeah they're still using it
00:29:24
apparently um which I I found out
00:29:27
somebody read my book recently who
00:29:28
actually works in the mort and said uh
00:29:30
we still use your form and your process
00:29:32
so it's about um it's a hell of a legacy
00:29:35
yeah it's become a real so P 47a that's
00:29:39
uh that's my legacy in the police do
00:29:41
that just come come from a place of
00:29:42
compassion yeah yeah well it had to be
00:29:44
there had to be a better way of dealing
00:29:47
with that I mean how can you go into
00:29:48
somebody's home and say oh I noticed you
00:29:51
smoke um you know how how many
00:29:53
cigarettes a day because this is what
00:29:54
the the the um people people who um
00:29:58
goodness me I forgotten their names now
00:30:00
not the morticians is a name for them
00:30:01
but the Pathologists the
00:30:05
morticians and they they they do all
00:30:07
this work and they want to know these
00:30:08
things to as to what to look for great
00:30:11
but let's not bloody punish parents
00:30:13
who've lost a child have a look is there
00:30:15
an ashtray on the table right yes
00:30:16
somebody smokes in the house is there a
00:30:19
heater take a photo of the room for
00:30:21
goodness sake of course there's a heer
00:30:23
have a look around use your eyes you
00:30:25
write it down don't ask them and don't
00:30:27
sit there and punish them by making them
00:30:29
you know they the baby's still there and
00:30:31
you're asking the parents these bloody
00:30:33
questions they had to had to change and
00:30:35
so by using your eyes and your ears
00:30:37
you're all police officers you're
00:30:39
trained at doing a form of Investigation
00:30:42
so do a form of Investigation if if a
00:30:44
detect you feel that something needs to
00:30:46
be changed a sergeant always turns up
00:30:48
they've got a lot more experience in
00:30:50
this they'll have a look around and go I
00:30:51
think we'll get a detective out here
00:30:53
just in case right that's what happens
00:30:55
in all in suicides all SU Ides it
00:30:58
happens in Road crashes why doesn't it
00:31:00
happen with a with a baby death why are
00:31:02
we punishing the parents and so just
00:31:04
worked with the then deputy coroner on
00:31:07
on a process of how do we how can we
00:31:09
make this better so it took a bit of
00:31:10
time to get there so we had to we had to
00:31:12
consult with all of the um all of the
00:31:14
police stations across the country that
00:31:16
had uh these these um inquest officers
00:31:20
and and developed this technique and
00:31:21
it's still been used today so very proud
00:31:23
of that
00:31:26
yeah so
00:31:29
when you're in the place and an adult
00:31:31
dies obviously you can't carry an adult
00:31:32
body out you need to put on a gurny what
00:31:34
do you do with a with a baby carry them
00:31:36
out yeah they get carried out um it's
00:31:40
it's it's um yeah it's horrible but but
00:31:43
but it's done in a in a in a in a nice
00:31:45
way in a sympathetic way but yeah
00:31:47
there's no there's no option right so
00:31:49
then you you go home from you go home
00:31:51
from work and then what you get drunk
00:31:53
you get
00:31:54
drunk you pissed off your head I was
00:31:56
thinking yeah get drunk maybe go for a
00:31:58
run or have have a shower but it's like
00:32:01
none of it none of it's going to get rid
00:32:02
of anything well so yeah and it depends
00:32:04
on the time of day as well you know all
00:32:06
night but uh this was this was the ear I
00:32:09
remember it was an early shift and um I
00:32:11
still had the shift to go and you know
00:32:13
there's a whole lot of other things will
00:32:14
happen across that shift um but yeah
00:32:17
that night you go home and you just you
00:32:19
just hug your family harder than you
00:32:21
would normal normally right well that's
00:32:23
something I didn't think about that's
00:32:25
something I I didn't did not think about
00:32:27
you know you think that's going to be
00:32:28
the end of the shift and you know Lance
00:32:31
this has been traumatic you go home now
00:32:32
knock off
00:32:33
early no it's not like that man I've got
00:32:36
such mad respect for the police job they
00:32:38
do I remember one one night one
00:32:42
shift um I was it was an inspector then
00:32:45
and so um I had all the guns in those
00:32:47
days you had all the guns in the boot of
00:32:48
the car and you turn up with all the
00:32:50
serious incidents and I went to this
00:32:53
terrible terrible job where a a young
00:32:56
man had fallen off his Bel balcony of
00:32:58
some floors up um and what his
00:33:00
grandmother had had washed the tiled
00:33:04
floor and he was leaning on the hand
00:33:06
rail and his feet went out and over he
00:33:08
went and um they were an Asian family
00:33:11
and every time uh another family would
00:33:13
turn up they'd go into this big meltdown
00:33:15
on crisis and blame each other and blame
00:33:16
us and hit and you know uh it was
00:33:19
horrible but then I got a call uh once
00:33:21
we got that sort of s I got a call oh
00:33:22
there's somebody on the train tracks um
00:33:24
wanting to commit suicide um and you can
00:33:27
you go there so I'm heading there and
00:33:30
next thinging a call comes in from
00:33:31
ambulance saying uh ambulance are
00:33:34
waiting outside this address this
00:33:36
mention of a knife they don't want to go
00:33:38
in so I went uh you stand by and I'm
00:33:42
thinking [ __ ] which one um and then a
00:33:47
good friend of mine who was at Christ
00:33:49
negoti said I'll do that one I'll go to
00:33:51
that one to the train track one um
00:33:53
because he's qualified crisis into noo
00:33:55
shatter thanks mate and I went to the
00:33:57
one and so we got Ked up and I I got a
00:34:01
carried a gun a firearm and we had two
00:34:03
dog L we took one dog and and uh we went
00:34:06
through the door and there was just
00:34:07
blood everywhere and this guy was lying
00:34:08
on the bed with a he had his hand
00:34:11
bandaged up and in the suitcase beside
00:34:13
him was
00:34:14
this person head chopped
00:34:17
up and uh and I looked and I
00:34:20
went and I don't remember seeing it my
00:34:23
brain switched off so then we got all
00:34:26
that sorted out and um media want an
00:34:31
interview so I've been to somebody
00:34:33
falling off that heading to another job
00:34:35
go to this job taking the guy down by at
00:34:38
night at gunpoint got all that sorted
00:34:40
out right hi yeah no we've just found it
00:34:43
we just discovered a body in the house
00:34:45
up there yeah yeah yeah that great and
00:34:47
then you go back and do your paperwork
00:34:48
CU you got to do your paperwork so 2: in
00:34:50
the morning I go home there was one
00:34:53
shift uh drunk that night
00:34:57
I can see a pattern and I and I'm not no
00:35:00
judgment I tell you what it works well
00:35:03
it probably doesn't right but but it
00:35:05
doesn't until it doesn't it doesn't it
00:35:07
doesn't and so there's a series of these
00:35:09
things that lead up to my demise so you
00:35:13
can see how all of these things when you
00:35:15
don't deal with it and um I remember um
00:35:19
cops of slow learners but I remember
00:35:22
having a uh we did a horrible homicide
00:35:24
there was a a group and the detective
00:35:26
inspector then said um how about we uh I
00:35:30
said I went to him I said Dom why don't
00:35:32
we go for a a bit of a debrief and you
00:35:34
know get a a psychologist and or
00:35:35
something we'll just do a team debrief
00:35:37
to help people he goes yeah well we
00:35:41
could go and get
00:35:42
pissed I went so what do you think he
00:35:44
said let's go and get pissed I okay cuz
00:35:47
that's how it was dealt with in those
00:35:48
days yeah um and that's all we knew now
00:35:50
it's a lot well it's mandatory now yeah
00:35:53
and so they've made it mandatory so you
00:35:55
have to go so that's that's actually the
00:35:57
leverage that says to people I don't
00:35:59
want to go but I have to it's
00:36:02
mandatory well you don't have to
00:36:04
actually cuz you no one can make you but
00:36:06
but but just by saying it's mandatory it
00:36:09
makes it so much easier for people to go
00:36:10
yeah and suddenly everyone else is doing
00:36:11
it so there's not going to be everyone
00:36:14
yeah yeah no no [ __ ] here yeah know
00:36:16
we all have to go oh those bloody police
00:36:19
they don't look after us they're making
00:36:20
us go and really inside you're thinking
00:36:22
thank goodness somebody's taking control
00:36:24
because I'm I'm 51 and the the only time
00:36:27
I've seen dead body in my life is
00:36:28
probably um my Nana's made up body in a
00:36:30
coffin open casket near lounge and you
00:36:32
guys are seeing you guys you guys are
00:36:34
seeing yeah blood murder scenes car
00:36:37
accidents just Grim stuff that that big
00:36:39
advertising campaign a while ago the get
00:36:41
bit of work stories it was It was kind
00:36:44
of mischievous in a way wasn't it no one
00:36:47
no one can set you up for for what
00:36:49
you're going to see no one can and I'd
00:36:51
never seen a body before I went to
00:36:53
police college and they they actually
00:36:55
take you to Mory and you get to View and
00:36:58
view how they dress a body and um it's
00:37:00
not until you yeah you get into the
00:37:02
actual job and you see it in reality but
00:37:04
that's still that's still a sort of
00:37:05
clinical environment right but when you
00:37:08
actually get to see it in real life in
00:37:10
reality it's just it's heartbreaking and
00:37:13
you realize how fragile life is you know
00:37:16
I so for a while I was the inquest
00:37:18
sergeant and um we turn up on a Monday
00:37:21
morning and at Oakland morer and there
00:37:23
would be 8 or 10 or 12 over the week
00:37:27
just from over over the weekend of
00:37:29
people that are required to undergo for
00:37:31
whatever reason um a a postmortem
00:37:34
examination and they just lined
00:37:36
up um all with their opened up and all
00:37:39
sitting ready to go for for the um
00:37:41
pathologist to come in yeah and you are
00:37:44
the faces covered or no you Tred not to
00:37:47
look at the faces I never looked at the
00:37:48
face no the bodies intrigued me um the
00:37:52
mechanics of the bodies are fascinating
00:37:53
how does it work what do you mean oh
00:37:55
just just you know as you know when you
00:37:57
see plastic models of that's pulled
00:38:00
apart that's what we look like that
00:38:03
looks like that when they're dead
00:38:04
because there's no blood flowing so
00:38:05
they're just yeah just um and they're
00:38:08
quite it's quite fascinating quite the
00:38:11
makeup of of us is is incredible I find
00:38:13
it fascinating but just don't look at
00:38:15
the face cuz if you look at the face
00:38:17
there's a person that's somebody's son
00:38:19
and someone's dad and someone's yeah
00:38:21
Someone's Child yeah yeah that breaks
00:38:24
you up yeah okay well I was get to
00:38:26
Instagram question but since we're on
00:38:28
the police stuff we might as well sit
00:38:30
here for a while and we'll get back to
00:38:31
those later um by the time you you left
00:38:34
were you like a more or less
00:38:35
compassionate person or more or less
00:38:37
cynical like did you have an ability to
00:38:39
see the best in people or no absolutely
00:38:42
cynical um everyone lies um and you
00:38:45
never see the best in life you you you
00:38:48
those times that you're with your
00:38:50
colleagues when you can let your head
00:38:51
down and relax and not not have all
00:38:54
these personas at the time that should
00:38:56
be encouraged more perhaps not with it
00:38:58
like we used to do with the alcohol and
00:39:00
that's that's frowned upon now but we
00:39:01
certainly need to have those times where
00:39:03
we're together as a team um and to talk
00:39:07
about it and and dark humor is a is a is
00:39:09
a wonderful way of overcoming stuff
00:39:11
laughing about it uh because it it just
00:39:15
would it's a hellish job you know when
00:39:17
you when I think back I was asked by a a
00:39:19
colleague when I was writing that first
00:39:22
book he said can you put something you
00:39:23
know some of the good stories in there I
00:39:25
said I can't remember any
00:39:28
I I was serious about I can't remember
00:39:30
any time I can remember is we got called
00:39:32
out um somebody put their porridge into
00:39:34
the uh on a night shift put the porridge
00:39:36
into the microwave turned it on and and
00:39:38
hadn't realized how high they turned it
00:39:40
on and we got called out to a job come
00:39:41
back and this it had blown the door off
00:39:44
the microwave and there was porridge
00:39:45
splattered all around the the mill room
00:39:48
that was
00:39:49
funny cuz he had to clean it up well I
00:39:53
was going to yeah than that I can't
00:39:55
remember much yeah maybe this is a
00:39:56
redundant question then I was going to
00:39:58
ask you best and worst days on the job
00:40:00
worse hard to imagine something more
00:40:03
traumatic than the death of a baby my
00:40:05
yeah so that would be my worst day well
00:40:08
yeah that would that was the worst day
00:40:10
was the baby right so you give me
00:40:13
finding you know going to help a family
00:40:15
who've lost their loved one an adult
00:40:18
orbe it or you know that one day of you
00:40:21
know going to pull somebody out at
00:40:22
gunpoint give me that day any day um
00:40:25
that whole heart string the whole
00:40:27
connection with people um really does
00:40:29
and you know if you've got kids you're
00:40:31
all thinking about them the whole time
00:40:33
and so uh yeah I best days in the police
00:40:36
um I know there were many but I just
00:40:40
can't remember them because they're
00:40:41
overwhelmed with the negative stuff
00:40:43
right and that's when you understand the
00:40:45
brain the brain has a negativity bias
00:40:47
it's looking for danger to avoid it all
00:40:49
the time and so um I've had to go back
00:40:53
there a number of times whether it's
00:40:55
writing the book or in the work I do now
00:40:57
I often use my examples so my time of
00:41:00
depression we've got this uh tool we've
00:41:01
developed now called the strength
00:41:03
exercise of how to work through
00:41:05
something and realize how far you've
00:41:07
actually come because you don't realize
00:41:09
that and so I still get triggered by
00:41:11
some thoughts there but best day in the
00:41:14
police I mean I it certainly wasn't the
00:41:17
day I left um I regretted that you know
00:41:20
I didn't want to go but I needed to go
00:41:23
because it was my time um but yeah I
00:41:27
just you there would be good days but
00:41:30
they are I guess few and far between
00:41:33
because you're continually working at a
00:41:35
high
00:41:37
Pace see having read your read your book
00:41:40
I I would have thought the answer for
00:41:42
bestand the job May something like um
00:41:44
you know talking a 14year old boy down
00:41:45
from mway over pass or talking talking a
00:41:49
girl down who was about to jump off the
00:41:50
Harbor Bridge or you know saving a kid
00:41:52
uh through a phone conversation that was
00:41:54
about to hang himself in a tree in a
00:41:55
park yeah they is they're just taking
00:41:58
the boxes they a SC they leave a scar
00:42:02
yeah um because of where I've been um I
00:42:06
would love to have not have done that
00:42:08
but you you you were literally
00:42:10
responsible for saving lives so that's
00:42:12
well it is I I remember I remember on
00:42:16
one job that we had this guy chased me
00:42:18
up a a driveway with a knife so
00:42:21
um M just came back to you that's when
00:42:24
you when you sparked that one yeah CU
00:42:26
that was one he didn't even you didn't
00:42:28
even mention
00:42:29
but don't know if that was in the book I
00:42:32
no I think it might be um because it was
00:42:34
it was I remember it being hilarious
00:42:36
because both he and I were being chased
00:42:38
by a police dog the driveway so it was a
00:42:42
long story short the guy was in the
00:42:43
house um um spoiled sort of brat really
00:42:47
he was um when so when I turned up we
00:42:50
had a a fresh new crisis negotiator who
00:42:53
happened to be yelling back at the
00:42:55
person and I went can't be good sh we
00:42:58
don't yell we're
00:43:00
negotiators so managed to convince that
00:43:03
there was a whole whole new Dy um so I I
00:43:06
said you come to the front door and you
00:43:08
you can sit get a chair sit down I'll
00:43:10
sit down here in a chair quite some
00:43:13
distance away probably I don't know 3 4
00:43:16
met away you don't come outside there
00:43:18
and I don't come in and we talk and he I
00:43:20
said you can keep the knife okay so I
00:43:23
said but one one re one one little
00:43:25
warning there is a dog there's a police
00:43:28
dog here uh and if you come out I'm
00:43:32
going to run away and the dog will get
00:43:33
you just just letting you know okay and
00:43:37
so and it got was going quite well and
00:43:39
then for some reason he just went off
00:43:41
[ __ ] it and he just threw the chair back
00:43:44
and he came running at me with a
00:43:45
knife and I just [ __ ] myself and I took
00:43:49
off and because I'm reasonably fit I ran
00:43:52
and I'd love to have seen somebody film
00:43:54
it because it was me in the front him
00:43:57
chasing me with a knife and I could
00:44:00
hear these dogs they don't make a noise
00:44:03
when they're running
00:44:04
but like you can hear the the whole way
00:44:07
back and I thought and all I heard was
00:44:11
Rous and I thought he's that dog handle
00:44:14
is not still hanging onto the
00:44:16
Rope now in the back of my mind I know
00:44:20
that police dogs can't tell a good
00:44:21
person from a bad person they go for the
00:44:24
person with the biggest sweat and and
00:44:26
ner and the smell of fear that would
00:44:29
have been
00:44:31
me your
00:44:33
honor and I went [ __ ] and so I looked
00:44:38
and there was a fence a wooden fence and
00:44:40
look D it must have been I don't know
00:44:42
about that high above my head I jumped I
00:44:45
know I know I did it like the PCT you go
00:44:47
over the big fence and I just grabbed it
00:44:49
reached over the top and pulled myself
00:44:51
over and then all I
00:44:53
he I went that was close hell yeah so um
00:44:57
so I got out I got back over the fence
00:44:59
and I walked up the end of the driveway
00:45:01
and uh he's sitting down he's got this
00:45:04
big bandage on his leg and I just said
00:45:07
see carried on and drove off into the
00:45:10
sunset never said a word to him see um
00:45:14
and yeah I mean I I I shouldn't look
00:45:17
back on fondness with that but but it
00:45:18
was just that whole Keystone Cops
00:45:22
laughter of I was just thinking that
00:45:24
must have looked so funny even from the
00:45:26
dog in the dog been handle was probably
00:45:27
wet himself thinking holy hell [ __ ] that
00:45:31
guy can run I'm not taking him on on a
00:45:33
in a race how um yeah I mean you're
00:45:37
still married you've only been married
00:45:39
once how did you like only once yeah how
00:45:42
did how did you keep your marriage
00:45:43
together through this career cuz it's
00:45:44
like um you had so many roles with so
00:45:47
much responsibility so much time away
00:45:49
from home so much pressure my wife's
00:45:51
special she's a special person um she
00:45:54
had the ability to um ignore me when I
00:45:57
need to be ignored um um she didn't
00:46:01
really know I was having going through
00:46:03
depression she knew I was in a really
00:46:04
bad place and going through some bad
00:46:06
stuff but didn't know what and so you
00:46:08
know that whole inquisitive stuff that
00:46:10
goes on um and and in hindsight I
00:46:13
probably could have but how can you how
00:46:14
can you go home and tell your parents
00:46:16
your parents your wife your partner and
00:46:19
even your kids are likely to hear about
00:46:21
what you do during the day and the
00:46:24
reason I say parents is that that some
00:46:25
people in the police do have you know
00:46:27
parents they live with their parents to
00:46:29
how can you go home and tell them about
00:46:31
that and for them to understand because
00:46:34
all they'll probably say is oh you know
00:46:36
you you'll get over this this is just a
00:46:37
glitch you know you know but look at
00:46:39
what good you're doing that's all you
00:46:41
know we that's that's it's well- meaning
00:46:45
but it's the wrong thing to
00:46:46
say it's so tell me what that was like
00:46:50
is what you should say so what was that
00:46:52
like at the time how scared were you I
00:46:55
could not do that that's what you should
00:46:57
say to somebody what was it like for you
00:47:01
because I don't know I know what it was
00:47:02
like for me but it'll be different for
00:47:03
each of us so if you could just say to
00:47:05
somebody so what was that like how did
00:47:07
you feel what was going through your
00:47:10
head holy [ __ ] is there something I can
00:47:12
get for you what do you need right
00:47:15
now nothing just let's just sit here
00:47:18
then that's what we need but but people
00:47:21
well meaning don't don't don't
00:47:24
understand that they think you want help
00:47:26
we're wired to help people don't help
00:47:28
people help people helps by putting it
00:47:30
back on them giving them some IDE some
00:47:33
some so just like you did then you said
00:47:36
some three of these things about you
00:47:39
know saving this person's life I would
00:47:40
have liked to have said that but they
00:47:42
still leave a mark they still leave a
00:47:44
scar what if the worst
00:47:47
happened was it a skill or was it luck
00:47:50
that got me through that but that
00:47:52
triggered something else about that
00:47:54
person who was in the house not wanting
00:47:56
to but wanting to hurt other people and
00:47:58
that triggered that little thing so you
00:48:00
did exactly what you're supposed to do
00:48:02
right but you probably didn't realize it
00:48:03
m but no doubt because you've been
00:48:06
through uh something yourself yeah I I'd
00:48:08
say from um you might might because you
00:48:11
look
00:48:12
for like what good can come out of these
00:48:14
things cuz um you're going through like
00:48:15
mental health issues and depression it's
00:48:17
[ __ ] horrible yeah like you just you
00:48:19
life just seems black and white things
00:48:21
just seem dull but if if I look for the
00:48:23
the silver lining of it the good that
00:48:24
came out of it it probably made me more
00:48:26
compassionate person yeah if someone
00:48:28
snaps at me or is angry like I I I
00:48:31
immediately now think oh I wonder what
00:48:33
they've got going on yeah there was
00:48:34
irrational reaction on their
00:48:36
part hting people hurting people hurt
00:48:39
people without realizing it yeah so I
00:48:41
probably needed to be a bit more
00:48:42
compassionate I think that's what
00:48:43
depression gave me what about you yeah
00:48:45
same same um I realize now that I'm U
00:48:48
more empathic so more understanding of
00:48:50
others uh more caring of others uh still
00:48:54
got that little bit of um selfishness
00:48:57
not selfishness I guess look at me
00:48:59
self-centeredness when you know when
00:49:00
you're up on stage doing a keynote uh
00:49:03
it's a euphoric feeling when you know
00:49:05
that people are listening to every word
00:49:07
when the whole room goes quiet I used to
00:49:09
think that I wasn't doing a great job
00:49:12
but when the whole room and and you walk
00:49:14
across the stage and their eyes are like
00:49:15
this following you it's it's a euphoric
00:49:19
feeling it's like wow they actually
00:49:21
listening to what I have to say and and
00:49:23
you know because we all have a a strong
00:49:25
and a critic but also have an impostor
00:49:27
and us all of us are on different parts
00:49:29
and you know I've got a bit of both and
00:49:31
the imposters thinking you know you're
00:49:33
not really qualified to do this job
00:49:35
still even though I've got a masters and
00:49:38
two diplomas doing a third one to three
00:49:40
books you know you're still not
00:49:41
qualified enough are you no I'm not uh
00:49:44
and so um yeah it is it is kind of like
00:49:47
that so uh I I guess I've I've I
00:49:51
realized that I always was I used to
00:49:53
think it was a sympathetic person and
00:49:56
and and my son has the same trait I
00:49:58
remember him coming home from school
00:50:00
once saying he was crying I said what's
00:50:02
wrong mate he said oh there was a cat
00:50:03
outside a house meowing and I didn't
00:50:06
know where it lived and I thought it
00:50:07
must have been lost I mean that's a
00:50:10
beautiful thing for a young man to say
00:50:12
right young boy to say and so I knew he
00:50:14
had that same that's the sort of feeling
00:50:16
that I have and so people like us are
00:50:19
susceptible to depression because we
00:50:22
take on other people's
00:50:24
emotions and that's what we have to be
00:50:26
careful of
00:50:27
yeah so the the keynote stuff you do now
00:50:30
um yeah I'm sure it gives you a bit of a
00:50:32
rush bit of an adrenaline kick but does
00:50:34
um does does anything match up to you
00:50:37
know the adrenaline kick from your past
00:50:39
life you know what I mean like the the
00:50:41
rush of saving someone's life and
00:50:45
oh yeah I think it does I really do I I
00:50:49
I'd love the feeling of taking uh
00:50:52
somebody to the ambulance right from
00:50:54
that have just saved off the bridge take
00:50:56
got off the bridge it's a great feeling
00:51:00
um but then I always thought well youve
00:51:03
you've managed to escape with another
00:51:05
one another safe one you know without
00:51:08
really feeling that um and so um yeah
00:51:12
for me it's I I get a wonderful Rush
00:51:14
when I when I have these this amazing
00:51:16
feedback come through afterwards I heard
00:51:19
you talking the other night and and I
00:51:21
remember in in vagle I did a keynote in
00:51:23
in vagle and this um in those days I
00:51:26
used to do a a quite a a funny sort of
00:51:30
um presentation now where it's more
00:51:32
informative lots of humor in there um
00:51:35
but this was mainly humor and he he
00:51:37
wrote to me the next day and
00:51:39
said I was in a bad place when I came to
00:51:42
see you I've been unwell I've been I was
00:51:44
suicidal the night before you've never
00:51:46
made me laugh so hard in my life thank
00:51:48
you for saving my
00:51:50
life just like that and that's what
00:51:52
keeps me going where are the laughs
00:51:54
where are the laughs in you Keynote
00:51:57
well it's lots of lots of funny things
00:51:58
that you that we think that we're the
00:52:00
only ones but in those days I used to
00:52:01
talk about how we poo so you can
00:52:05
tell you can tell um when you are not in
00:52:09
a good place uh you've got too much um
00:52:12
cortisol build up is when you wake up in
00:52:13
the morning you have the
00:52:15
shits so it's adrenaline and cortisol
00:52:17
it's the cortisol that comes out so two
00:52:18
ways cortisol comes out of your system
00:52:20
one is exercise and the other one is it
00:52:22
comes out naturally as shits and so I'd
00:52:24
talk about why is there always always
00:52:26
corn in our [ __ ] I don't even I don't
00:52:30
even eat corn but there's always corn in
00:52:32
it what is that why do peanuts come out
00:52:35
whole I I I I know I know I I know you
00:52:39
look don't you you all look and it's
00:52:42
through the and theyd end up laughing
00:52:44
but that was because I was going into
00:52:45
those in those days doing a lot of real
00:52:48
serious stuff around um suicide so
00:52:52
suicide intervention but certainly
00:52:54
postvention because postvention is what
00:52:56
we don't do enough
00:52:58
of we can do a lot of prevention
00:53:01
fantastic we can do a lot of
00:53:03
intervention okay but what about after
00:53:06
you failed to kill yourself now
00:53:09
what no one does that so I go there and
00:53:12
I talk about how to restart your life
00:53:15
and in fact the work I do these days is
00:53:16
mainly based on that but just presented
00:53:19
in a different way of how to get through
00:53:21
life's crap at the moment with what
00:53:23
we've been going through since since
00:53:25
2020 well how how does that look for
00:53:27
people that have a failed attempt oh
00:53:29
well they failed they can't even they
00:53:31
failed at life and then they can't even
00:53:33
kill themselves it's a double failure
00:53:35
but do you have like um a euphoric
00:53:37
moment where it's like I survived you
00:53:38
know oh my God I survived I'm lucky to
00:53:40
be here it wasn't meant to be not at the
00:53:42
time no um well did you have that I
00:53:45
never attempted I never think so I never
00:53:47
I never attempted but had ideations but
00:53:50
was there ever a moment where you
00:53:51
thought gee I'm glad that um I didn't
00:53:54
get any worse yes yeah yeah so I haven't
00:53:57
had
00:53:59
that but that might be because I just
00:54:01
move on I just kind of keep moving
00:54:04
forward um I I've I'm absolutely pleased
00:54:08
that I'm still here yes you know it
00:54:11
wasn't a moment where I went oh thank
00:54:13
goodness for that no I don't I don't
00:54:15
remember an
00:54:17
actual Awakening of a wow I'm so pleased
00:54:21
um but I think that's my makeup yeah I
00:54:24
think that's my brain the way it is
00:54:27
life has been one continuous challenge
00:54:29
for me for for a number of reasons um
00:54:32
and you know it starts with the parents
00:54:34
and then it moves on from there so both
00:54:36
parents military well you can imagine
00:54:38
the sort of discipline that we had at
00:54:40
around home and some of the struggles
00:54:42
that so that sort of sets you up with
00:54:45
first thousand days and all that sort of
00:54:46
thing um not that I didn't have a bad
00:54:48
childhood don't ever get me wrong there
00:54:50
but it was quite disciplined sound it
00:54:51
was very very St like by today's by
00:54:54
today's um
00:54:57
yeah yeah hugely strict no no we not
00:54:59
abusive just just really strict you know
00:55:01
if you put one foot out of line there
00:55:03
was a whack coming or was a web belt
00:55:05
coming there was something you know
00:55:06
there was there was a a repercussion for
00:55:08
that that's what I mean by that uh and
00:55:11
we know that that's completely the wrong
00:55:13
way to do things right it hardened you
00:55:15
it made you worse yeah well there's a
00:55:16
story in your book where you you steal
00:55:18
some money from school and you get sent
00:55:19
home and you Dad gives you a whack on
00:55:21
the face and then you have to go back to
00:55:22
school with a bruised face to apologize
00:55:24
and yeah you think about what would
00:55:25
happen now like
00:55:27
the school would handle it differently
00:55:29
the police would be involved and your
00:55:30
dad would be in the most trouble out of
00:55:32
anyone yeah that's true that's true yeah
00:55:34
it doesn't happen like that and and uh
00:55:37
did that work well you know people say
00:55:39
Well it worked look at you now no it
00:55:40
didn't work it made me worse and I'll
00:55:43
tell you it made me worse yeah so um am
00:55:47
I a better person for the the the thing
00:55:49
that made me a better person without a
00:55:51
doubt is going through that that whole
00:55:52
trouble of that depression and that
00:55:54
whole trauma uh because I had to have a
00:55:58
deep look at myself and really focus on
00:56:02
who do you want to be who do you want do
00:56:05
you want to be that person or you want
00:56:06
to be somebody different someone new and
00:56:08
so that's how I worked on it yeah and
00:56:11
ongoing yeah oh I think that's an
00:56:13
exciting thing though way like I'm I'm
00:56:15
I'm 51 now when I was like 20 or 30 I
00:56:17
would have thought you know someone
00:56:18
that's 51 has it all 51 I can tell you
00:56:22
look 66 thank you the flattery Society
00:56:26
do I mean this is Fitness right yeah
00:56:28
completely Fitness for you and I we're
00:56:30
both fit people yeah I I got friends my
00:56:32
age and they're like oh it's an old age
00:56:35
thing you know because they've got the
00:56:36
sword joints whatever I'm like no that's
00:56:38
negligence like you need to yeah well I
00:56:40
got asked um recently um do you get sore
00:56:44
aches and pains you know because you're
00:56:46
so fit I said yeah you get aches and
00:56:47
pains every day because I'm fit because
00:56:49
that's how I stay fit it causes aches
00:56:51
and pains so you're going to have aches
00:56:52
and pains either way it's better to have
00:56:54
aches and pains that you go oo GE I
00:56:57
pulled that oh that's that feels good
00:56:58
today rather than a I can't move yeah
00:57:02
it's like choosing your hard a like hard
00:57:04
Choice Easy Life Easy Choice hard life
00:57:07
hey so um so some of your jobs in the
00:57:08
police so um you were in the um police
00:57:12
negotiations team um one week training
00:57:15
for that uh no well it was a continuous
00:57:19
seven days yeah s days so we changed it
00:57:21
to 10 so I changed it to two weeks yeah
00:57:24
that doesn't seem like a lot of you
00:57:26
learn I know and it was lots of videos
00:57:29
it was weird i' forgotten about that too
00:57:32
cuz I've never read my book so you get
00:57:34
um yeah that's right it was so police
00:57:37
negotiations um in a in a nutshell uh
00:57:41
you you're dealing with the sad The Bad
00:57:42
and The Mad so sad depressed people y
00:57:45
mad people who are they're schizophrenic
00:57:48
or they're yeah yeah yep yep going
00:57:50
through psychosis and bad so criminals
00:57:53
yeah okay yeah right like the like the
00:57:56
hostage situations or the yeah mull or
00:57:59
barricaded criminals yeah okay and you
00:58:01
you spent 13 years on that role as a
00:58:03
negotiator and amongst doing other roles
00:58:05
in the police what makes a good
00:58:06
negotiator someone who can
00:58:08
listen and someone who can talk
00:58:11
naturally um when we go Tri ended up
00:58:14
running the courses and uh we have to
00:58:16
beat the cop out of the cop when they
00:58:17
become a noo shatter don't do the
00:58:19
question answer question answer it's
00:58:22
what do you mean it's so tell me what's
00:58:24
happened you've got to now now become
00:58:26
the listener not the talker as a cop you
00:58:29
learn to talk you learn to steare you
00:58:31
learn to guide you learn to get as much
00:58:33
information as possible in the shortest
00:58:35
possible time and move on reverse it and
00:58:38
that's so hard to do uh but it's how do
00:58:41
you get the best how do you get someone
00:58:43
to talk and so that's the skills and
00:58:45
there's an acronym called more pies and
00:58:47
it's a like it's a way of naturally
00:58:51
going through a natural rhythm of how to
00:58:52
get somebody to talk um you know and to
00:58:56
get and to get the information out two
00:58:57
ears one mouth yeah it's a real skill to
00:59:00
do yeah yeah but intent listening is one
00:59:03
thing but then you have to say the right
00:59:04
things don't
00:59:06
you you you do and that's the problem so
00:59:10
the one thing you have to keep and this
00:59:11
is the hardest thing to teach people is
00:59:13
what are you trying to achieve because
00:59:16
when we show the techniques often times
00:59:19
they're just trying to tickle the boxes
00:59:21
I've asked open questions I've had some
00:59:23
minimal encourages I've done one
00:59:25
reflecting it's no what's the point of
00:59:28
this and so whenever we we uh we
00:59:31
whenever I was in charge of the
00:59:32
negotiations at the time it was always
00:59:34
so what's the aim here get everybody out
00:59:37
safe okay good that's that's a
00:59:39
barricaded criminal what about a
00:59:40
somebody to get them off the bridge and
00:59:42
that's your aim so how can you do that
00:59:44
and by breaking it down into small
00:59:46
little chunks so how can I get that
00:59:48
person just to put one leg or even just
00:59:50
to get them to turn around and look at
00:59:52
me rather than look down at the ground
00:59:55
how can I get them just to to put one
00:59:56
arm
00:59:57
over how can I get them to put one leg
00:59:59
over and often times I'd say look if you
01:00:02
come back over just sit there and I'll
01:00:05
come and sit beside you how's that and
01:00:07
that would be the way that I'd get
01:00:08
somebody rather than say come on jump in
01:00:10
the car whereas I I recall a senior
01:00:13
Sergeant who he was renowned for this he
01:00:16
was just the the worst guy you could
01:00:19
ever send to a suicide
01:00:21
intervention a Harbor Bridge um so we're
01:00:24
waiting for the the day I'm on my way
01:00:26
there and um I I get to the the cordon
01:00:29
and I said say where is he said is is it
01:00:32
the Central police station now the
01:00:33
senior Sergeant picked him up I said
01:00:35
what he said oh he said come on get in
01:00:38
the car let's go and have a coffee the
01:00:40
guy did come over the bridge jump in the
01:00:41
car they went a cup of coffee he W even
01:00:44
train for it because you just don't know
01:00:46
right so so sometimes you can have the
01:00:48
best negotiators and other times that
01:00:50
you can just have somebody that just
01:00:52
knows people this this might be hard for
01:00:54
you to answer but um what made you so
01:00:58
good I don't know that I was that good I
01:01:01
think I was probably
01:01:03
methodical which helped me but being
01:01:06
having having been in that position and
01:01:08
being able to think to people uh and I a
01:01:11
couple of times I've said it I've been
01:01:13
where you are and it's not nice is it
01:01:16
what's it like for
01:01:18
you and that just you see them they look
01:01:21
up and they look into your eyes they can
01:01:22
tell you can look into people's eyes and
01:01:24
you can tell right
01:01:26
you know they've been there and so
01:01:28
that's that helped a hell of a lot and
01:01:31
look at me
01:01:32
now Look at me now there was one
01:01:34
negotiation I did with with a guy who
01:01:36
was um holding a knife to his stomach
01:01:39
and he had the the knife handle on the
01:01:41
steering wheel and he was pulling it so
01:01:43
it would going to a stomach and he was
01:01:45
about to be arrested and the worst thing
01:01:47
was the cops that were about to arrest
01:01:48
him uh to detectives I was standing
01:01:51
behind me and I'm like can you go just
01:01:55
off
01:01:57
um might been a job here and and cuz it
01:02:00
I remember it was with the sun it was
01:02:01
summertime and I I haven't day it was
01:02:04
yeah during the day uh that turned up to
01:02:06
arrest him and he jumped in his car and
01:02:08
driven off and driven to this place um
01:02:10
in Browns Bay at a car park at the
01:02:12
tennis club and um so they turned up
01:02:14
there and they had them cornered but
01:02:16
obviously they had the Firearms they
01:02:18
didn't want to go on cuz he said I've
01:02:19
got a knife here and I've got a knif you
01:02:20
come close I'm going to kill myself so I
01:02:23
first thing that happened I went up to
01:02:24
him and I said um he said I don't you
01:02:26
come any close closer because I'll I'll
01:02:29
kill myself mate you got a knife I'm
01:02:31
coming anywhere near you and his face
01:02:33
was like he's like
01:02:36
really I'm not going to get I'm going
01:02:39
home tonight don't about you this was
01:02:41
going under my head you know I'm eting
01:02:42
home tonight I'm not a hero um and but
01:02:45
how do you convince somebody who's being
01:02:47
arrested for sexually abusing his kids
01:02:51
who were his hook that kept him alive
01:02:55
and so you have have to really think on
01:02:56
your feet and uh I remember saying to
01:03:00
him
01:03:01
well you are going to go to jail there's
01:03:05
no way around
01:03:07
this you love your kids um you want to
01:03:10
be there for your kids you want to make
01:03:12
amends yes yes yeah yeah yeah right so
01:03:14
the only way to do that is to go to jail
01:03:16
and get help and you will get help for
01:03:17
it and that's what you have to do that's
01:03:19
the way you can make up to them and it
01:03:22
just was and he went really but he
01:03:25
couldn't get out of the car because of
01:03:26
the
01:03:27
media uh they wanted to get a photo of
01:03:29
them and you know and cameras they TV
01:03:31
had TV cameras it was a c contingent so
01:03:34
I said look how about this you get out
01:03:36
the car we'll sit beside your car facing
01:03:38
that way so they can't see you and we'll
01:03:40
just sit and talk goes yeah yeah okay
01:03:43
and he sat down and then he says no I'm
01:03:45
all good I don't want to sit here
01:03:47
anymore so I just called the detectives
01:03:49
over and they arrested them and took him
01:03:51
away so you really do have to think on
01:03:53
your feet pretty quickly um
01:03:56
if this happens you know if I say this
01:03:57
what what will it do there's no right or
01:03:59
wrong but it's just being personable
01:04:01
just being genuine just being you yeah
01:04:03
that's the biggest thing I can say yeah
01:04:05
because one of the one of the um pillars
01:04:07
is you're not allowed to lie right so
01:04:09
you can't say okay it'll be we won't you
01:04:12
won't go to jail no you're not yeah it's
01:04:14
the only time I've ever lied is when
01:04:16
somebody's going through
01:04:19
psychosis um you have to buy into their
01:04:22
lie to um to get get them into the car
01:04:27
cuz they know where they're going even
01:04:28
in the back of their mind they know
01:04:30
where they're going and people in
01:04:31
psychosis are so hard to to talk well
01:04:34
you don't talk with them you listen to
01:04:36
them and they just and they end up
01:04:38
talking so much they end up with the dry
01:04:41
um saliva around there they just talk
01:04:42
and you can see the white in their their
01:04:44
mouth or it's that's what that you know
01:04:45
they call it frothing but it's not it's
01:04:47
just the the saliva all dry um and
01:04:50
that's the only time I'd ever say look
01:04:52
come on let's just get in the car where
01:04:54
do you want to go okay let's go there
01:04:56
that's the only time I've ever had
01:04:57
because then I I know that once they're
01:04:59
in the car they'll see where we're going
01:05:01
and then they just fade a comply they
01:05:04
they really do they just go oh yes are
01:05:06
we going to the police station aren't we
01:05:07
yes we are because you need help you
01:05:09
haven't been taking your medication and
01:05:11
so that um but no if you because the
01:05:16
risk is if you lie to somebody you're
01:05:18
going to be back with them again so as
01:05:20
soon as you turn up you might as well
01:05:22
just walk away because if you've lied to
01:05:24
them they'll remember that
01:05:26
and a lot of these people are come come
01:05:28
back again and again not just in suicide
01:05:30
but also criminals you know they they'll
01:05:32
they'll be cornered in the house cuz
01:05:33
that's what they know so two or three
01:05:35
times you can be talking to a person
01:05:36
within you know four or five years you
01:05:39
can talk to two or three times same
01:05:40
position same nothing's changed you know
01:05:42
here he is again Li Lance yeah so you
01:05:45
said I wasn't going to
01:05:47
jail so that's it right so the only time
01:05:50
that we could have I was asked to lie
01:05:52
was uh in was with George Baker now
01:05:54
George Baker
01:05:56
um killed Liam Ashley in the back of a
01:05:58
prison van he strangled him and every
01:06:01
year on the anniversary of that that
01:06:03
death he would um go a little crazy OB
01:06:07
you know well obviously it's guilt but
01:06:09
they don't know it as guilt because they
01:06:12
he's um um not narcissist but he's got a
01:06:15
real almost um I don't
01:06:19
know he's he's he's way off the end of
01:06:22
of every Spectrum you could ever see on
01:06:24
so he's just got no emotional connection
01:06:26
with anything but their guilt still
01:06:28
there and so um the prison can't they
01:06:31
they had the prison locked down and you
01:06:33
can't aede to somebody's request
01:06:35
otherwise it'll happen again and again
01:06:37
again so I said well I can't lie but I
01:06:39
can get somebody else to lie on your
01:06:41
behalf yes so this was um yeah he had
01:06:44
like a like an elderly so he went and
01:06:45
kidnapped an inmate and held him hostage
01:06:48
and he said at
01:06:49
9:30 I think it was 9:30 for memory 9:30
01:06:52
um you'll know the answer and so we were
01:06:55
able to go back through his file and it
01:06:57
was at 9:30 that he got
01:06:59
arrested off for murdering murdering
01:07:03
yeah that night and so what's
01:07:05
significance there well we got to get
01:07:06
him out of there before
01:07:08
9:30 because either he's going to take
01:07:11
that person or he's going to kill
01:07:12
himself and so um there was a guy there
01:07:16
who had uh been doing some negotiating
01:07:18
with him and I mean inmates prisoners
01:07:22
can see can smell cops you you walk
01:07:24
through the prison all year is
01:07:27
that's
01:07:29
original come on you had years years in
01:07:32
this cage to think that's the best you
01:07:34
can do oink oink give me a break so
01:07:37
what's um yeah what's that like going
01:07:39
into um a place like Pim This was um is
01:07:42
this DB block the yes it used to be
01:07:43
called DB block now they've got a name
01:07:45
for it now but it's the most uh highrisk
01:07:48
so there was people in there like gely
01:07:50
head his leg shot off in in Christ
01:07:52
Church there was all these really bad
01:07:55
murder is and really you know high risk
01:07:58
um some of them actually shouldn't be
01:08:00
there they should be in an institution
01:08:02
because they should be getting help
01:08:03
because that's just completely you know
01:08:05
mad yeah it's the worst of the
01:08:07
worst yeah he was there gr Burton the
01:08:10
guy that Burton was there there was they
01:08:12
were all there there was a whole lot of
01:08:14
them they were just the worst of um so
01:08:16
we managed to get uh they can so I can't
01:08:19
do it I turned up I looked and went uh
01:08:21
and so I role played a helper an
01:08:24
assistant and and was was helping The
01:08:25
Negotiator and so they lied uh on their
01:08:29
behalf and then they end up smashing
01:08:30
them to the ground got him open the door
01:08:32
up what did he want he wanted to go to B
01:08:34
Block which is a less secure facility
01:08:37
yeah as if that's going to happen M bro
01:08:39
you're proving right now why when you
01:08:42
you're an idiot but when you think of
01:08:44
what they don't know was there was the
01:08:46
the prison so they have a team called
01:08:48
ACR which is avanced K and restraint so
01:08:50
they have shields uh and there's just
01:08:53
one Squad of them so they they can put
01:08:55
these squads together and and go into an
01:08:57
entire prison and lock it down that's
01:08:59
fantastic the way do it so there's uh
01:09:01
two Shields at the front and there's a
01:09:04
couple of with the round Shields at the
01:09:05
back and two people in the middle and
01:09:07
then uh a team leader and so my thumbs
01:09:09
up was they were going to go through the
01:09:11
door and my thumbs down was the STG
01:09:14
they're going to try and taser then they
01:09:16
they'll try the the bag that they've got
01:09:19
a big um bean bag or he's going to
01:09:23
be um stopped M or like a ban bag gun
01:09:27
yeah they got a bing bag gun or or the
01:09:29
ultimate you know the the being shot and
01:09:32
um so luckily for me it was um it was
01:09:36
that he managed to get him to to start
01:09:39
taking cuz he' barricade and jammed the
01:09:40
lock up he started to pull it down so I
01:09:42
just looked across and I went thumbs up
01:09:45
right now the guy that was there
01:09:48
happened to be there by accident I'd
01:09:49
been working with him for four years I
01:09:51
used to go to their ACR courses and he
01:09:54
was a good good M of M right and he's
01:09:56
ging them all up going just yours your
01:09:59
time to get it your time to win this is
01:10:01
what we trained for this is and he got
01:10:03
them so GED up they nearly
01:10:09
rushed
01:10:10
wait and then then I went and they come
01:10:14
around the corner and just I mean you
01:10:16
can't have it but as soon as they took
01:10:17
him down you know but terrible thing to
01:10:20
do because they broke his nose and M him
01:10:22
he was screaming like the whole prison
01:10:24
went quiet m M dead you could literally
01:10:27
hear a pin drop you could hear nothing
01:10:30
just silence everybody just
01:10:33
stopped and it was just like that just
01:10:35
this whole it was eerie but when you
01:10:39
walk into a place like that you can
01:10:40
smell fear you the whole prisons aren't
01:10:44
good places you smell fear just fear
01:10:49
testosterone you can smell it it's a
01:10:52
sweet sickly smell there is that much
01:10:55
fear in prison it's a sweet sickly smell
01:10:58
you can inside every one of those people
01:11:00
as a as a young child MH trying to get
01:11:02
out right literally and figuratively um
01:11:05
and so it's not the place to have them
01:11:07
because fear breeds
01:11:08
[Music]
01:11:10
fear we need like someone like George
01:11:14
bely absolutely 100% but in a different
01:11:17
way not lock down the way we've got them
01:11:20
locked down so you look at the
01:11:21
Scandinavian countries way way different
01:11:24
it's still like home where they're
01:11:26
locked in it's still they're still
01:11:28
treated with some form of
01:11:29
dignity uh and their reci rate is was
01:11:33
really low that they their success with
01:11:36
having um because of a completely
01:11:38
different style is amazing it's quite
01:11:40
funny like before um before my own
01:11:42
mental health struggles I was probably
01:11:43
more like rightwing I would have been
01:11:44
like nah
01:11:46
Lo me too yeah no good um but now it's
01:11:50
like well you know eventually most of
01:11:52
these people are going to come out so
01:11:54
you you know we want to see some sort of
01:11:56
result or some sort of out I've met some
01:11:58
wonderful people that we EX in fact I I
01:12:00
just bought a book the other day the guy
01:12:02
was just sitting um up at Roa at the
01:12:06
shops and he's just sitting and he's
01:12:07
just got some books beside him I said oh
01:12:09
like I said I Wake Them walked up to him
01:12:11
and shook his hand hey you going what
01:12:12
are you up to goes I just just wrote a
01:12:14
book here I oh did you I said are these
01:12:17
for sale yeah I'll buy one and he was an
01:12:19
ex gang member and a very senior gang
01:12:21
member you had the full full facial and
01:12:23
had everything um
01:12:25
and he said yeah sometimes you know we
01:12:28
takes us a long time to
01:12:30
learn and that's what a beautiful thing
01:12:32
to say so they need to write a book and
01:12:35
to tell these people young people don't
01:12:37
because the road's not worth it the
01:12:39
road's not worth it yeah but what's
01:12:41
what's it like for you being face to
01:12:43
face with someone that you that you know
01:12:44
is a like a a real nasty piece of work
01:12:47
like a George
01:12:48
Baker I I'd still be I'd still be
01:12:51
fearful of George Baker um he's not to
01:12:53
be trusted is he no that you he will he
01:12:56
should never be let out there's some
01:12:58
people you must never let out but the
01:13:00
system uh will let them down by letting
01:13:03
them out and the system will let us down
01:13:06
by letting them out um yeah there's
01:13:10
there's a few people like that like the
01:13:11
bows they must never ever get out they
01:13:13
should be put in an institution where
01:13:14
they get as much support as they can for
01:13:15
the rest of their life but yeah there's
01:13:17
some very very bad people and it's it's
01:13:19
been done to them both those cases you
01:13:22
mentioned but that was done to them as
01:13:24
children that caused that thing to
01:13:25
happen to them yeah so it's not their
01:13:27
fault right so but it's very hard to say
01:13:29
that but it's not their fault they were
01:13:31
made that way yeah the old me would have
01:13:33
been like well because that was their
01:13:34
upbring they should know not to do that
01:13:36
to other people but I understand now
01:13:38
that's not how it works well I could
01:13:39
tell you a story about um one of them
01:13:41
and I won't tell you which one who was
01:13:43
put in a 44 gallon drum with the lid put
01:13:46
on that bashed with a stick every time
01:13:48
they were naughty in the darkness and it
01:13:50
so what would that
01:13:52
cause it's heartbreaking that's just
01:13:54
heartbreaking yeah and I I got asked
01:13:56
once
01:13:58
confidentially by um by uh the crown
01:14:02
cister one day said what can we do about
01:14:04
these people I said we'll kill their
01:14:05
parents
01:14:07
first because they did it and he said
01:14:10
you can't say that just did I just did
01:14:13
let's start with that yeah so they you
01:14:15
know so they won't have any more
01:14:17
influence on them and then let's start
01:14:19
with the with working on the person in
01:14:20
front of
01:14:21
us um one thing just looking back to
01:14:24
something we were talk about before the
01:14:26
you the the dad in the car with the
01:14:27
knife at the beach that had been um
01:14:30
molesting his own
01:14:31
children so you you know your job your
01:14:34
role there as a negotiator like how how
01:14:36
are you able to find any sort of
01:14:37
compassion with that sort of person um
01:14:40
looking forward to the
01:14:42
future so very hard to do when you got
01:14:45
your own kids and you think what is
01:14:46
wrong with you you know but but
01:14:49
understanding that it's something that
01:14:51
it's
01:14:53
intergenerational you're just you're not
01:14:55
not born it you're not you're not born
01:14:57
with that Gene you might have we're all
01:14:58
born with genetic dispositions but we're
01:15:00
not born and we have the gene but they
01:15:02
have to be activated and so what
01:15:04
activated that Gene and that person
01:15:07
that's what I hold on to that inside
01:15:10
there may be a good person inside there
01:15:13
might be a good person and let's hold on
01:15:16
to that and let's see if we can give
01:15:18
them an opportunity yes they've probably
01:15:21
well they have destroyed two lives um um
01:15:25
and so we've got to start somewhere so
01:15:28
start with this person they're going to
01:15:29
go to jail so that's their punishment
01:15:32
right and then they get some help while
01:15:33
they're in there now we have to also
01:15:36
wrap around the children but that's not
01:15:39
what's being done we aren't spending
01:15:40
enough time on the victims these days of
01:15:42
wrapping around the oh that's all good
01:15:44
they're okay now because we've got a
01:15:45
prosecution so they'll be feeling good
01:15:48
it's a bit like the postvention right
01:15:49
and suicide oh they've survived that
01:15:51
suicide attempt so they're all good now
01:15:54
yeah they made it no no we're not we
01:15:56
haven't got enough wraparound services
01:15:58
for for people that need
01:16:02
help so the um The napia Siege would it
01:16:05
be fair to say that this is like career
01:16:08
defining would you say yeah I feel like
01:16:10
it's pretty significance this is 15
01:16:12
years ago it was it was the probably the
01:16:14
was biggest in my career but biggest
01:16:16
that um in fact the person my
01:16:19
predecessor would have been his biggest
01:16:21
as well he said so hopefully it'll never
01:16:25
repeat itself again but yes it was a it
01:16:27
was a it was a matter of bringing um
01:16:30
every skill we all had so we brought in
01:16:33
I think four maybe five teams yeah every
01:16:35
sko that we could man manage to get that
01:16:38
resolved so um just a a quick recap and
01:16:41
correct me if I get anything wrong it's
01:16:42
a guy called Yan molo who was growing
01:16:43
some cannabis in his house had a a a
01:16:47
massive massive supply of weapons um
01:16:49
police came to do a check presumably
01:16:51
because of the smell of cannabis and he
01:16:53
just saw the Red Mist shot a cop shot
01:16:55
his neighbor who tried to intervene in
01:16:56
the league y shot another cop yeah shot
01:16:59
it right yeah shot shot and killed one
01:17:01
cop and then shot another cop and then I
01:17:02
think probably another two and then his
01:17:04
neighbor and then barricaded himself in
01:17:05
his house taking shots at and then yeah
01:17:08
he had um I think they got 14 or 15
01:17:10
weapons all had been modified in some
01:17:12
way to become automatic weapons and he
01:17:14
was just firing willy-nilly into the
01:17:16
into the neighborhood so he was ready
01:17:17
for a fight wasn't he he was he was
01:17:19
ready and he had some military training
01:17:21
um as well which made it worse and he'
01:17:23
put he made it well know that booby
01:17:25
traps around the property um and that
01:17:27
was to keep gang members away because he
01:17:29
was the gangs controlled in Orcs Bay
01:17:32
they controlled the the drugs and he was
01:17:34
selling and so yeah there was a big fear
01:17:36
there for him of that and that's why he
01:17:38
did that very difficult uh to get
01:17:41
through to him um and that's the first
01:17:43
time I've ever used I I just fairly
01:17:46
recently come back from the FBI
01:17:48
negotiators course in quano and uh they
01:17:51
talked about
01:17:53
um uh oh goodness me they um in Texas
01:17:58
they had that uh the wo Waco right yeah
01:18:01
they'd come back from there and I I I
01:18:03
remember reading in there that some part
01:18:05
of it they used a family member to try
01:18:08
and engage and so that sort of put that
01:18:11
little spark into my mind of maybe we
01:18:13
could use his partner to help break
01:18:16
through we did in the end yeah because
01:18:18
you're you're ruled up until that point
01:18:19
was not to involve a family member
01:18:22
because um it gives them opportunity to
01:18:23
say goodbye opportunity say goodbye and
01:18:25
yeah to end it all that's why you never
01:18:26
bring them you know somebody who's
01:18:27
suicidal or can we bring somebody along
01:18:29
you get my mom here you think oh okay
01:18:31
we'll get the mom and they go this is
01:18:32
for you and off they go um so we bring
01:18:35
them to the scene but we debrief them
01:18:38
and so we got uh we got her to we said
01:18:41
this is what we want to say put it into
01:18:44
a text message and so how would you say
01:18:46
that and then she would say what we were
01:18:49
saying but in her own words and send it
01:18:50
to them back and forth what we didn't
01:18:52
know was that there was another an next
01:18:54
part of his was also sending other ones
01:18:56
you know kill yourself you're loser so
01:18:58
we're up against that but didn't know it
01:19:01
um and so in the end we put her Adell on
01:19:04
on the phone and um because he was was a
01:19:08
a risk willing to take we'd be given a
01:19:10
tight time frame if it doesn't end by
01:19:13
here we're going in yeah cuz this been
01:19:16
on for so long he yeah well it was was
01:19:17
it was over 12 hours of holding the town
01:19:19
at Ransom so the whole town because he
01:19:21
had high powerered rifles he could shoot
01:19:23
from the Hospital Hill across into into
01:19:26
the city so the whole town was basically
01:19:29
being held hostage yeah and it gets to
01:19:31
the point where it becomes such a big
01:19:32
Nationwide story you got politicians
01:19:34
then you got oh well they turned up well
01:19:35
that was great yeah awesome had the
01:19:37
Deputy Commissioner come through hi here
01:19:38
you
01:19:40
go you need that like a ho the head when
01:19:43
you're thinking so this thing kicks off
01:19:44
and you get flowing down from ockland to
01:19:46
nap and westpack helicopter um so are
01:19:50
are you reading notes on the way down
01:19:52
are you briefed on the way down you you
01:19:54
get down there i' already had a number
01:19:55
of briefings in the morning and on the
01:19:58
way down um I had in my mind because P
01:20:01
had just come on the scene that was
01:20:03
quite rampant at that point and um again
01:20:06
I guess I could joke about it um I I
01:20:08
said to the so there was there was
01:20:10
myself there was the STG members we had
01:20:12
two helicopters there there was police
01:20:13
helicopter and the wispack by the time
01:20:15
we got there there was military planes
01:20:17
helicopters it was just like a war zone
01:20:19
time we landed and I remember saying oh
01:20:21
this all all be over by 10 we'll be home
01:20:23
out of here soon a bit M
01:20:27
maletic
01:20:30
consequently things didn't go as well as
01:20:32
I
01:20:34
thought so um and and it went on a bit
01:20:37
longer than I thought yeah yeah yeah so
01:20:39
so at the conclusion conclusion of that
01:20:41
he ended up um end up taking his own
01:20:43
life yeah
01:20:45
um yeah how you it would have been good
01:20:47
to have him hold to account well you
01:20:48
feel responsible for it I had to go and
01:20:50
have some serious counseling after that
01:20:52
because you do feel responsible and it
01:20:54
does take some time to work through
01:20:55
we're responsible for yeah and people
01:20:56
will say yeah but he deserved it well no
01:20:59
the the goal is to get everybody out and
01:21:01
I wanted to get him out to hold him to
01:21:02
account so he could see what he'd done
01:21:05
so he could feel the pain of everybody
01:21:07
else so he could be
01:21:10
punished and maybe rehabilitated but
01:21:12
certainly be punished for all that and
01:21:14
so um you know we have to be held to
01:21:16
account for our for our sins and so that
01:21:19
would have been the time when he took
01:21:20
his life it did take I didn't sleep much
01:21:22
that night I have to say and then for
01:21:24
the next couple nights and then I had to
01:21:25
go and get some some psychological
01:21:26
support just to to work through the
01:21:29
process of this is why it happened this
01:21:32
is how it happened and here's the
01:21:34
outcome of it and I remember um when the
01:21:37
STG came back in after getting into the
01:21:39
house and finding him dead uh coming
01:21:42
back and one of them just said to me if
01:21:43
we'd gone through that door there'd be
01:21:45
more of us dead because of the way he'd
01:21:47
set the house up yes and he it was his
01:21:49
way of saying thank you Lance for what
01:21:51
you did yes so was the part of you
01:21:55
like at the conclusion of that that you
01:21:56
you feel like you failed oh you feel
01:21:58
like a failure well the well the idea is
01:21:59
to get everyone goes home safe no matter
01:22:01
who they are everyone and that's the
01:22:04
number one aim of Crisis negotiating
01:22:06
everyone goes home it's it's not like
01:22:09
you see on TV how can you we did that we
01:22:11
were asked to encourage him to come
01:22:12
towards the window because at that point
01:22:14
it was at such a dangerous stage that
01:22:17
that was our role so he could be shot um
01:22:20
but then a as the time went on the
01:22:23
urgency waned and so therefore legal
01:22:26
opinion from headquarters says no the
01:22:29
urgency is not there anymore so it's now
01:22:33
arrest so was the wrong call to put his
01:22:35
patterner on the phone no it was the
01:22:37
right call I still say it today it was
01:22:39
the right call it was his choice
01:22:40
ultimately just like we talked about at
01:22:41
the very start going back to the start
01:22:42
it's their choice so his choice was I
01:22:45
can either come out and suffer the
01:22:48
consequences or I can take my I can end
01:22:52
it all here and so he choose option
01:22:55
be yeah it's funny so that was well it's
01:22:58
not funny at all actually but that was
01:22:59
15 years ago and I think one of his one
01:23:01
of his um lines in his final
01:23:03
conversation to his partner was he
01:23:04
didn't want to spend 15 years you locked
01:23:06
up in a cage and uh yeah had he done
01:23:09
that had yeah probably be coming close
01:23:11
now to having a meeting with the parole
01:23:13
board yeah yeah yeah so I mean that's
01:23:15
that's the thing about life right we
01:23:16
just don't know what's going to be in
01:23:17
front of us and then we can work through
01:23:19
some things here for sure what was some
01:23:20
of the hindsight learnings from that
01:23:22
scenario um well the biggest one was um
01:23:26
never to put the person on and uh and to
01:23:28
record it so that was and I got that
01:23:31
from a guy from Texas um from my FBI
01:23:34
course the guy from Texas was everything
01:23:36
happens in
01:23:37
Texas he's got some great videos about
01:23:40
his negotiation time but he said uh we
01:23:41
always record their voice so they can't
01:23:44
say
01:23:45
goodbye so that's one of now the new
01:23:48
protocols as you record the person the
01:23:49
loved one saying please come out darling
01:23:51
I you know I'm here for you you know
01:23:53
I'll be here right to the end where
01:23:54
through this we'll get through it
01:23:55
together and you do it as a recording so
01:23:57
they can't say
01:23:58
goodbye it's it's funny that CU you
01:24:00
think hearing if you're in that state
01:24:02
hearing a partner's voice encouraging
01:24:04
you to come out would be I don't know I
01:24:07
maybe I'm thinking from a rational point
01:24:08
of thinking Yeah well yeah he was in
01:24:09
crisis right so very rare crisis plus
01:24:12
his brother had committed suicide I
01:24:14
think about a year earlier
01:24:15
yeah
01:24:17
um yeah another one of your your massive
01:24:19
jobs in the police was um you in charge
01:24:21
of the uh 111 Northern Communication
01:24:23
Center uh we was in charge of the
01:24:26
Staffing of it yeah so looking after the
01:24:28
staff as in um their training their well
01:24:32
the recruitment it end up being
01:24:33
recruitment training and then the
01:24:34
ongoing support that they needed yeah
01:24:36
was that like hectic job oh hell of a
01:24:38
job there was 300 and something just in
01:24:40
the ockland uh let alone then taking
01:24:43
over the responsibility for we re
01:24:46
changed the recruitment process um for
01:24:49
it um but yeah no it was a it was a
01:24:52
fascinating job because I was also not
01:24:53
only there to help part of the role was
01:24:56
also there to um hold people to
01:24:59
account so you were both uh the the the
01:25:03
person who did the hugging and the
01:25:04
person who did the the the telling
01:25:08
off what sort of what's what's an
01:25:10
average day like know like that well if
01:25:13
if you're on the floor um you're you're
01:25:15
running from job to job to job uh
01:25:17
because as the inspector you you must be
01:25:21
uh if it's a if it's a Firearms job if
01:25:23
it's a Pursuit you must stand next to
01:25:25
the or sit next to the the the um
01:25:28
dispatcher and listen and if sometimes
01:25:31
turn on and go abandoned pursuit or this
01:25:34
is now going to another stage or uh you
01:25:36
have control so you've got that whole
01:25:38
overall control uh it's the worst job
01:25:40
because you're not there you can't see
01:25:42
you believe you have everything's done
01:25:43
by sight everything's done by um
01:25:45
something by site by watching a map and
01:25:48
where they put the little icons and then
01:25:49
hearing and you're listening for things
01:25:51
but that's it and you're in charge
01:25:54
so it's a hell of a hell of a
01:25:56
responsibility that you don't get
01:25:57
trained for you're just there you just
01:26:00
learn on the job you just learn on the
01:26:02
job what's this button for was my what's
01:26:05
my what's my catch cry what does this
01:26:07
button do and all I hear inspector don't
01:26:11
touch it yeah well that must make um
01:26:14
this next part of your career seem like
01:26:17
um a little bit of fun in comparison I
01:26:19
don't know maybe I'm completely wrong
01:26:20
but the vi PP stuff oh the vs yeah
01:26:22
what's that a very important person
01:26:24
protection Squad yeah um so you were
01:26:27
working with um Helen Clark as prime
01:26:28
minister for a while yeah yeah it was
01:26:30
great um what what did that entail so um
01:26:33
there was two parts of it one was the
01:26:35
VIP protection side and the other one
01:26:36
was the witness protection side so we
01:26:38
had two parts within that same building
01:26:40
um and it used to be based in R rnz
01:26:42
house underneath Radio New Zealand on
01:26:44
the level one and there was double doors
01:26:46
like um Maxell smart type thing you know
01:26:48
it's all secret it's a very cool job uh
01:26:51
very very highly trained highly skilled
01:26:53
operators uh who ultimate profession um
01:26:58
the training is you get to smash cars up
01:27:01
um not as not as much as we used to but
01:27:03
you still get to break a few cars and
01:27:05
you still get to what do you mean crash
01:27:07
crash them yeah sometimes they crash and
01:27:09
they're training you f accident of
01:27:12
course but I mean where else where else
01:27:15
what other kind of job do you know where
01:27:17
you get given a firearm and you get
01:27:21
given a rifle and you get given um a car
01:27:24
and they say go out and protect that
01:27:27
person it's a cool job and the training
01:27:30
is exceptional they you go to Oak and
01:27:34
the airbase there and they've got a
01:27:35
track that you go on and you you know
01:27:37
they they run all these scenarios past
01:27:39
you and you do a whole day a full day of
01:27:42
firing firearm so just a full day of
01:27:45
just Glock pistol your fingers are red
01:27:49
sometimes bleeding with loading the
01:27:50
magazines and with firing that the
01:27:52
finger is bruised
01:27:55
what isn't that
01:27:56
great is it yeah it is because you get
01:27:59
so highly skilled at using Firearms it
01:28:01
becomes absolutely intuitive you know I
01:28:04
can still do
01:28:05
a an automatic relay without even
01:28:08
technical relay without even thinking
01:28:10
muscle memory happens just muscle memory
01:28:12
it just happens right so you just click
01:28:14
the mag out you have the other one you
01:28:15
bring the other one up click it pull it
01:28:16
put the other one in it's done you just
01:28:18
do it without even just happens so it's
01:28:21
a pretty cool job yeah that must been um
01:28:23
a what I can't talk about of
01:28:25
course I don't I don't know if this is
01:28:27
something you've you've reflected on or
01:28:29
maybe I'm overthinking this but um yeah
01:28:30
you were like a kid in balls when your
01:28:32
dad was at ohaki Airbase now you are
01:28:35
back there in this very very important
01:28:37
role uh doing this training at ohaki it
01:28:39
must have felt like a very very
01:28:40
satisfying full circle it was it was
01:28:42
yeah life's lot and I lots of circles
01:28:45
Clos but that was quite a surreal sort
01:28:47
of place because I was actually in the
01:28:48
shop uh I thought I going to have a look
01:28:51
and in the shop they have shops you
01:28:53
obviously with the people on BAS M and I
01:28:55
went there and I was shopping and here's
01:28:56
the instructors in there as well and
01:28:58
what are you doing in here why aren't
01:28:59
you you know reading or training or
01:29:01
something what am I going to read what
01:29:03
am I going to train for I'm home this is
01:29:05
my home I live here I lived
01:29:09
here and that night um we had some beers
01:29:11
at the sergeant M and I was there at the
01:29:13
sergeant M having beers too the only one
01:29:15
there and shouldn't you be doing no no
01:29:18
because this Feels Like Home to me it
01:29:20
was a whole returning back to where I
01:29:22
grew up said this is home I'm enjoying
01:29:24
this and were there any like any
01:29:28
incidents or anything when you were
01:29:29
looking after Helen Clark not really um
01:29:33
well not I can't say I'm not allowed to
01:29:35
you're still sworn by the secrecy of it
01:29:37
but um there were times when uh we
01:29:40
didn't know where she was that was that
01:29:42
was horrible times for the for the team
01:29:44
what do you mean for how long what
01:29:45
duration time for for for an hour or two
01:29:47
hours or not realizing you know that she
01:29:49
might have gone somewhere she might go
01:29:50
to the gym or she might just do
01:29:51
something that doesn't we don't know and
01:29:54
that's scary scary as hell yeah not yeah
01:29:59
well well I mean you can't be standing
01:30:02
over someone the whole time no right and
01:30:04
she's the Prime Minister when you what
01:30:06
are you supposed to do um yeah it's
01:30:10
interesting job it really was it was
01:30:13
um you
01:30:15
know I I I guess she didn't like to have
01:30:18
police around here I guess would be the
01:30:20
the easiest way of saying that but yet
01:30:22
when they were there I know that
01:30:24
appreciated it like for example that
01:30:25
she's on a plane and the door flies off
01:30:27
of the plane so they're she physically
01:30:29
holding the door a little plane and the
01:30:31
the protection offic is holding the door
01:30:32
closed so it won't fly off um I'm sure
01:30:35
she appreciated
01:30:38
that um what was what was she like as a
01:30:41
person CU i' imagine very serious right
01:30:44
yeah cuz i' imagine she wouldn't know
01:30:45
who I was cuz I was the in charge of M
01:30:47
you got to see her a few times and I'd
01:30:49
I'd often just pop into the house so um
01:30:52
wherever the prime minister is there is
01:30:54
a protection team so they're somewhere
01:30:56
nearby so they're either in a car
01:30:57
watching or they're in a house
01:30:59
nearby and so there's always uh and so
01:31:02
we in those days we had a house right
01:31:04
next door and so I'd be sitting in there
01:31:06
with the with the with the um wasn't a
01:31:08
Protection Officer they they call them
01:31:10
the uh residential Security Group who
01:31:12
are highly trained and they do patrols
01:31:15
they do random patrols at different
01:31:16
times and yeah looking after so you're
01:31:19
there most of the time but it is easy to
01:31:20
get away because you don't want to be
01:31:22
completely over them mhm you John ke he
01:31:25
had um the security guys living on a
01:31:27
camper van on his driveway and um I'd
01:31:30
imagine I can imagine John let taking
01:31:32
Pizza out to them same as just maybe
01:31:34
maybe cooking pikelets for them Helen
01:31:36
probably not so much not so much she was
01:31:39
so Prime ministerial she was she was she
01:31:41
was a gy love to get her on the podcast
01:31:43
and then I was that that V vipps role is
01:31:47
that what took you to the Olympics and
01:31:48
the cworth games as well uh so after
01:31:50
that yeah so after that it was just
01:31:51
another part of the career I applied to
01:31:54
go and do that so I ended up with
01:31:56
looking after the the London Olympics
01:31:59
and then uh in the village and then also
01:32:00
at the deli Comm games looking after the
01:32:02
Olympics the athletes at the conth gam
01:32:05
so all you're doing is you're making
01:32:07
assessments of where all the venues are
01:32:09
so you actually go and visit every
01:32:10
single venue like it's a hell of a job
01:32:13
Dom and you go and visit all the all the
01:32:15
big uh it's a great great gig so you get
01:32:18
given a a pass that gets you anywhere to
01:32:21
go anywhere doesn't matter who you are
01:32:24
you just flash your badge and then you
01:32:26
go it's great so so you had to watch a
01:32:29
few events no no well that's the thing I
01:32:32
I I'm not a sporty sort of guy even
01:32:34
though I try and keep fit um and uh I
01:32:37
think that's probably why I got the gig
01:32:39
because I don't I'm not that much
01:32:41
involved in sports I just I'll watch it
01:32:44
maybe but no I my role was to be looking
01:32:48
for the safety so I was I was I love
01:32:51
that part of it so I'm talking with
01:32:52
other security officers from around the
01:32:53
world
01:32:54
uh loved it I you know I fact in the
01:32:58
Olympics at London the SAS were there
01:33:00
the Special Operations group they call
01:33:02
themselves now in the house next door to
01:33:03
where we were and they spotted me um and
01:33:07
and said you know do you want to come
01:33:08
over and say good day and and I got to
01:33:10
learn how they operated you know so very
01:33:13
cool that that was that was where I like
01:33:15
to be in there rather than sitting
01:33:17
watching I know that one year um
01:33:19
somebody just went to the one of the
01:33:21
cops just went to the um volleyball the
01:33:24
the beach Vol all and that's where we
01:33:26
spend his whole days
01:33:27
apparently men's and women's or just
01:33:31
just
01:33:33
women's I want tell you who it was yeah
01:33:36
um well yeah I suppose it's like mostly
01:33:38
a fun job but um you got to be
01:33:40
hypervigilant though because if anything
01:33:41
goes wrong it's like you're there
01:33:42
question you're it right and so that's
01:33:44
what I was I was hypervigilant yeah yeah
01:33:47
so it was um was it 10 years ago that
01:33:48
you left the place yeah 10 years 10
01:33:50
years yeah how how was that how was
01:33:53
adjustment life post place um I have to
01:33:56
say uh about a month after leaving I was
01:33:59
driving through town I looked up and I
01:34:01
went [ __ ] that's an ugly building and I
01:34:03
realized it was Oakland Central police
01:34:05
station it was like turning a light
01:34:07
switch off never looked back never want
01:34:10
to go back and that's the same building
01:34:11
where in 1999 you on the flo floor never
01:34:14
even thought about that yep and I just
01:34:16
completely Switched Off and went that's
01:34:18
it good life over and so now it's just
01:34:21
about uh never being in a better place
01:34:24
living the dream helping people sharing
01:34:27
my story listening to other people's
01:34:28
story hopefully helping as much as I can
01:34:31
but just living life to the fullest I
01:34:33
have to say yeah just really enjoying
01:34:36
everything I do you you you had a real
01:34:39
um lowkey farewell do you do you sort of
01:34:41
regret that now after a 22 year career
01:34:43
the only reason I regret it is somebody
01:34:45
said to me it's not about you it was
01:34:47
about us when you left we weren't able
01:34:49
to say
01:34:50
goodbye uh and that caught that hurt
01:34:54
because I never thought of it from that
01:34:55
way so I was I was still very
01:34:57
self-centered at that time still very
01:34:59
selfish were you were you sort of better
01:35:01
and burnt out yeah better and burnt out
01:35:03
yeah yeah there's a reason I stayed 22
01:35:05
years and not 21 I got I was I had my um
01:35:09
Good Conduct a long service I got But A
01:35:11
Good Conduct but it wasn't quite there
01:35:13
and so they delayed it by a year so I
01:35:16
thought I'll wait a year then almost to
01:35:19
the day they said here you are I went
01:35:21
see you yeah yeah um what what do you
01:35:25
miss the most about it and what are you
01:35:26
glad to leave behind uh I miss the
01:35:28
camaraderie I miss I miss the intensity
01:35:30
of of intense situations make friends
01:35:35
and Friends you'll never forget people
01:35:36
that that you can stand beside and Trust
01:35:39
um that's what I miss
01:35:42
um but that's probably it um now I'm
01:35:46
just loving what I do look where I
01:35:48
am I'm here I'm here you're on the dumb
01:35:52
heavy podcast It's been a From Grace no
01:35:54
it's not it's been it's been a wonderful
01:35:56
journey and I'm I'm very lucky to done
01:35:58
and I've got some very good people
01:36:00
around me which you should always have
01:36:01
and I know you do too and so yeah it's
01:36:04
about um being uh being you and being
01:36:08
your genuine self yeah any regrets
01:36:12
none no things I would have do done
01:36:15
differently absolutely but regrets I've
01:36:18
now learned to go I cannot change them I
01:36:20
can be a better person because of them
01:36:23
yeah and you proud of
01:36:24
yourself I am now I am now how long did
01:36:29
it take you to get there about last
01:36:33
week and I'll leave here and go oh
01:36:36
there's still a couple of other things
01:36:37
you might want to work on yeah yeah yeah
01:36:39
hey this has been a great chat I
01:36:40
mentioned we had these um questions from
01:36:42
people on Instagram but um I've taken up
01:36:44
enough of your yeah I've got to go I've
01:36:46
got to go for some physio Dom yeah do
01:36:47
you yeah yeah yep therapy from the neck
01:36:50
down there one for the leg Yeah um this
01:36:54
has been so great thanks so much for
01:36:55
sharing how the the police stuff how how
01:36:57
is it to talk about that um yeah well
01:37:00
I've got a dry mouth um it does take you
01:37:03
back there but
01:37:05
um I've forgotten about it this is the
01:37:09
most I've ever talked about it um and I
01:37:11
put it behind me and every so often I'll
01:37:14
I'll get somebody will say uh like just
01:37:16
recently I'm helping somebody who's
01:37:18
who's an island so I know he may not see
01:37:20
this um and he I worked with him and he
01:37:22
said I always remember you when we went
01:37:27
to a special investigations the four of
01:37:28
us went to the special investigations in
01:37:30
fatani and uh he said I remember you
01:37:33
said so what's your claim to fame and he
01:37:37
said what a great way to get people to
01:37:39
introduce themselves so what's your
01:37:41
claim to fame I didn't even sometimes
01:37:43
you you touch people with in a way that
01:37:45
you don't even realize you've done it
01:37:46
with some words you say you know people
01:37:49
will come up and say I remember when you
01:37:50
said this and I'm like did I say that
01:37:53
don't remember what's yours claim to
01:37:56
fame um well apart from the P 47a my
01:37:59
claim to fame I guess is I don't know uh
01:38:03
I'd like to be known I'd like to be
01:38:04
remembered by the person who tried to
01:38:06
help as many people as possible yeah I
01:38:08
think that would be my legacy of of he
01:38:11
was somebody who was worked hard to try
01:38:14
and make it better for others in this
01:38:18
last part of life his last third of his
01:38:20
life um I owe a lot to my wife uh for
01:38:24
for putting up with me uh and she's
01:38:26
still the rock to this day you're right
01:38:28
and she's she needs the one that needs
01:38:29
to be interviewed because she's put up
01:38:32
with a lot of of she's seen the best and
01:38:34
the worst the very worst of me and and
01:38:37
and I'm so lucky that she's still live
01:38:40
do you think she's proud of the guy she
01:38:41
married oh she better be yeah hey well
01:38:44
thank you for um yeah I mean it's um she
01:38:47
much this it's it's it's a funny job
01:38:50
it's such an essential job and um you
01:38:52
know there some people that Pro police
01:38:53
some people that are anti police but uh
01:38:55
you know the sacrifices that you made
01:38:56
and I'm sure the stuff that you missed
01:38:58
on with your kids um to try and make New
01:39:00
Zealand a better to society I mean I
01:39:02
appreciate it for one thank you mate
01:39:04
thank you and I appreciate you being
01:39:05
here today um yeah my pleasure I love it
01:39:08
great yeah same here it's been been
01:39:09
fascinating Lance P you're a great New
01:39:10
Zealander oh thank you Dom yeah I really
01:39:12
appreciate it thank you
