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sh Henwood welcome to my
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podcast thank you very much for having
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me the pleasure is all mine retired
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detective Sergeant Dave Chuck Henwood um
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the winner of do you say winner of three
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silver mer merit awards yeah I guess so
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your award and what does that mean
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exactly for well it's a it's kind of the
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highest award you can
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get internally in the police really um
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so usually goes anywhere that but mainly
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in investigations I think but yeah a lot
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of people have got them and and you got
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them oh but not many people have three I
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wouldn't imagine only one other person
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and he was at the he was at the large
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last night with me who's that Peter
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mford Burgers right and what are these
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three for well the first one was for
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working in papur we had numerous
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homicides and u a lot of serious crime I
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got it for that in in 94 I think 96 was
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up Park and 98 was up Harvey
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you you say park and Harvey like the
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because I mean it's such a big part of
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your life most people would be like
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what's it what's he about we but we
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we'll get into that cuz it's been um
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hell of a career 47 years in the New
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Zealand Police yeah yeah a long time but
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I started at 17 so and you're um you're
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retired now and you just um play um you
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literally blow your own trumpet now yeah
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absolutely which I'm not very not very
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used to yeah 50 50 years out of that um
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while I was in the police and just to go
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back and it's amazing how you can pick
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it up again it's good yeah so you plant
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a brass band um you also tend to your
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rose gardens um yeah yeah I thought
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about that after the um after the the
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you the high octane career you've had do
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these um like Hobbies just sort of give
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you the you know the peace and Calamity
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that you sort of need at this stage in
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life yeah I think so I think I think you
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um you got to walk away in the end and
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it's why one of the reasons why I left
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South Oakland to retire went into
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Cambridge CU you know every street and
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every Corner's got story you know and I
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I didn't want to retire there so we're
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somewhere new yeah and you enjoying
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retirement loving it yeah loving it yeah
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um you can pick your own moments what
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does that mean well you can you can kind
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of do what you want to in any time you
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can sleep in you can get up you can go
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you can get up in the morning and say oh
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I'll drive to Tong or visit somebody or
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it's just the freedom that it that it
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gives you you know um after always being
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dictated to by some
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and why why a book so you got this um
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brand new book out called unmasking
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monsters how the hunt for New Zealand's
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worst criminals change placing forever
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um why a book now at this age and stage
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of life well it was all about timing and
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a way you know we all as police officers
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we often talk ah this got to be we got
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to write it write down write the stuff
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down you know it was funny and all the
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rest of it and serious and all all the
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bits and pieces and but um
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at the end of the day nobody ever has
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because a lot of his graveyard humor and
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you don't write a book about that I mean
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how far does that go so in n in 2019 I I
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had a bit of I had a b of the old um
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prostate cancer which is about as common
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as smashing grabs in Oakland these days
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so so you know we we have a coffee
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morning where um about 20 or so were
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there and one time and half of us we
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called ourselves the prostate Club
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because we that's how common it is you
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know so yeah I was domiciled at home and
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I I thought B with a with a bit of
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encouragement from My Wife and and some
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other people I I started writing it it
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was a different story it was going to be
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at that time and I was I was kind of
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writing for my family and uh and to try
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and get a message out to people what
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it's like to be inside Major inquiries
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and and how it engulfs you and and how
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you deal with it but and and then she a
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bit about
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behavioral of rapists and criminal
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profiling at the end and it's kind of um
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it was a Meandering kind of scrambled
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script for a long time was about 150,000
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words when when I sent it to an editor
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Sue she she said well you're going to
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have to cut this in half mate you know
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so we did and a lot of stuff went out a
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lot of homicides and that so we we
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focused on just the the foundation that
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you have when you start to try and
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compare it with what the people were
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that we kind of dealt with at the end
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and what a different start we have in
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life and and how we go down different
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roads and then it kind of goes into
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operation Park and Behavioral Science
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and and criminal profiling and how that
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all developed yeah these these words
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that you're throwing around like
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operation Park and um Harvey before um
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these two and so many other cases um
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that you've been involved with like
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you've you've rubbed shoulders with like
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the most evil people that have ever like
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walked to New
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Zealand yeah some of the absolute worst
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like absolute bottom of the barrel
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pieces of [ __ ] yeah they you're know
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yeah you're did right I
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mean they're kind of um yeah the bottom
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of the bucket really aren't they yeah so
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this book you dedicated it to a woman
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who you never met Susan bdet why was
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that important to you well I think it if
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you you look at operation Harvey which
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was about a series of offenes by Malcolm
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Raya
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um we we failed to kind of get a
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conviction of of for her murder against
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malcol R and we all knew malcol R was
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responsible for it and it took a long
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long time and uh I I just felt found it
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necessary I I did also um dedicate it to
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the Legion of the um all the ladies that
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were involved and um and their Brave
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dealings in court in the process and but
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I just want to make extra mention of
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Susan bdet because she's not here and um
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her family are so yeah yeah that's one
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thing from um doing some research for
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this podcast that's uh yeah one thing I
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gather about you which comes through
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very strongly just your um the
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relationship that you have um with the
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victims that you've dealt with over the
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years um like Susan bdet who's dead and
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also victims that are living and um yeah
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some of them were even at your book
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launch last night I think that's worth
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acknowledging and mentioning yeah they
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were you know
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it's an interesting thought of
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connection to victims of rape because
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once the court case is over you deal
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with them a lot and and you want to make
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them you got to work with them to kind
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of help them through the the process
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which is you when a court set up for a
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defended isn't it I mean and rightfully
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so they got to make sure that he gets a
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fair trial but we kind of try and push
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the boundaries and and get as much if we
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can and help the victims through that
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process so you do get to know them well
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but at the end of it um
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you've got to kind of let go because
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some a lot of lot of victims of of rape
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want to move on and they don't want any
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more to do with it and whereas others um
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think that they've just been dumped you
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know at the end of the process because
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it's not for us to kind of to keep in
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contact with them but if they want to
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keep in contact with us and I and as you
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say there was four of them at of rers
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victims at the book launch last night
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and um we had a quite a long night and a
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lot of
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laughs well you bounc back all right
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this morning you seem okay well yeah
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yeah no it's fine yeah um a couple of
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other uh slow balls um you don't like
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the word cop no why what's wrong with
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cop well I I know the police department
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are now using it in the recruiting proc
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for goodness s i i kind of align it to
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when you turn up at at buddy at bws and
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scraps and and and and crime scenes is
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here are the filth here are the pigs
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here are the cops so I kind of put them
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all together and so I I don't like being
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and this phrase Top Cop I mean I I sick
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to death of that here and that you
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know um oh like like a lack of respect
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sort of thing I think so yeah do people
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like you remember like um pegs like in
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the 70s and ' 80s it was a massive
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massive slur against the police do
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people still say that I don't know
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police I imagine they've got some new
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names
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now but equ equally well interestingly
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I've got a I've got a t-shirt at home
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with a great big pig on the front of it
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which I I quite often wander around but
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yeah so I kind of laugh now at that but
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I you know the filth and stuff like that
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I mean I just think you know why why
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should we take it on they can use it if
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they want to um but I
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don't I don't go with it yeah yeah and
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you you um you spent your entire career
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in South Oakland yeah I did yeah what's
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the um what are the main like obvious
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differences between now and then well I
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don't know 100% what it's like now
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because I'm not been there but certainly
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they they walk a um I feel for them now
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I mean when we started in in 1970s early
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70s was um I think the public opinion
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and and support was pretty strong and um
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and it wasn't a
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um there is a a a kind of out outcry of
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kind of anti kind of police stuff going
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on in the in the world these days and um
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not just here but uh you know and they
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wouldn't they wouldn't think before the
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spring B to you wouldn't think of a
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crowd turning up throwing bricks at the
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police I mean that was 1981 was a bit of
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a changer wasn't it and uh um yeah so
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but it's also that what the police have
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got to do today they they're still
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underst staffed as we always have been
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you know but they're getting away from
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it you always got to fight for that
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little piece of the pie whatever you're
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doing and a SP pie at that so um but the
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today um they've got all these other
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little duties and it's not was quite
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simple in a way back in the early 7s we
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were there to catch
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criminals um we weren't even Amalgamated
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with the transport at that stay so was
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so Ministry of Transport I'm old enough
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to remember that yeah right 93 or
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something I think um but but uh but yeah
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so it was quite a simplistic thing you
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know you okay you dealt with fatal motor
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accidents and deaths and and things like
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that but um catching criminals was the
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kind of Pinnacle of what we were there
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about I don't think it is anymore I
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don't even know if it's in the in the
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front room anymore there's all these
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other social issues that are going on
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and we've been kind of dragged into
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other duties that perhaps weren't
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initially ours and we've still got we've
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even got a thinner police to and now
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than we had before so I don't know how
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they get on and also of course it's it's
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it's a lot more open and and and
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everybody's got a camera for everything
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that happens and yeah so it's a it's a
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tough tough beat to walk now I think
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than it was when we started yeah yeah I
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probably agree with that sort of a lack
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I don't know lack of respect or a
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certain amount of entitlement for I
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don't know um I've heard you describe
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yourself as an old school copper does
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that sort of like to him with the last
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answer yeah I guess it does and
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I because of what what what I believe
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our duty is duties to to victims and and
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crime um that's what I thought anyway
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and why I stayed in CIB for as long as I
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did yeah and
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um yeah so your your default now from
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where you are now like after spending
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your entire uh life and service with the
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New Zealand place and now you're retired
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is your um default to see the good in
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people or to think the worst of people
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oh know I think um that's one of the
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reasons why state in South Oakland
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because um we always hear the bad side
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of everything and uh if you actually
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stay somewhere long enough and and get
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to um talk to people and communicate
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which is face it the most important part
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of a policeman's um job really is to
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communicate with with everybody all
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different types of people you you
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actually see the good side of things
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when you there's a hell of a lot of good
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people out there and and in South
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Oakland as well like anywhere suppose
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but they're there um and they're trying
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to exist and it's getting harder and out
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for them um and I it kind of because we
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deal with I used to live in in South o
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as well you know there's some police
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officers kind of tend to kind of live
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somewhere else and and come in and you
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you surround yourself with these people
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trying to exist in in a in you know in a
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struggle and especially in plac like
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otar and mangar you see these good
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families with the the the mother with
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two jobs the father with two
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jobs struggling to even make meet and
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right next door there's a gangster
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selling drugs driving around in a Harley
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Davis and and you imagine the two
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families kids growing up next to each
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other yeah where as a young person are
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you going to be drawn you know so it's a
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hard hard C so there's a lot of good
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people out there corers yeah and I and
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you deal with them all too yeah it be
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hard hard to um remain glass half full
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though wouldn't it I guess after a while
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yeah be very easy to become cynical yeah
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well absolutely but I think you also um
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you you kind of feel that you you're
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um it makes you more complete when you
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when you kind of try to to understand
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what's going on see what I what I I
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think I mentioned in the book about the
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old days when we used to I say old days
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70s and 80s um we used to interview
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these these suspects and an interview we
00:14:01
talked to them for hours have a smoke
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with them I didn't smoke but anyway
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drink and drink of water and bu and just
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yarn and just build that little we
00:14:10
Bridge just such a little thing just
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just so that we all know that we we're
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not that buy different really we've just
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gone down a different Road and they
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started in a in a shocking environment
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and I didn't um and it's as simple as
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that really and uh we're not that Bloody
00:14:26
different and I and I think there's a
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little Bridge there it's all gone now
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because it's all clinical Our lives our
00:14:32
lives are clinical you know we don't
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laugh
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enough all right let's move into another
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chapter um in the mid90s so first of all
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uh I remember this clearly um but a lot
00:14:45
a lot of people of a certain age won't
00:14:46
even know the name but who is Joseph
00:14:48
Thompson yeah well back in was February
00:14:52
93 he turned up in my patch in
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manua um
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and it was followed by a number of rapes
00:15:01
stranger and TR rapes in Mana we we
00:15:04
weren't getting a handle on it at all he
00:15:06
was he kept offending didn't know where
00:15:08
he came from um but we knew it was one
00:15:11
guy and I I I went up and I I had to
00:15:15
kind of work out where I thought he came
00:15:17
from because there was no indication
00:15:20
that he had kind of grown up in Manu and
00:15:22
he was just kind of um moving up the
00:15:24
ladder To Be A Serial Opus he must have
00:15:26
come from somewhere else and and I went
00:15:28
up to odaho and pulled out a whole lot
00:15:30
of files from otar and Odo in the late
00:15:33
80s and early 90s and I took them home
00:15:35
and read them and it was quite clear
00:15:39
that this was the same guy this is where
00:15:41
he' come from so he' been going for ages
00:15:44
for years and uh so yeah so we started
00:15:47
operation Park to to find find this guy
00:15:50
and we after about a year and a bit um
00:15:55
we hadn't found them and these rapes
00:15:56
kept going on you know we were going
00:15:58
getting under bit pressure here and um
00:16:01
and rightfully so um but um then Johnny
00:16:06
Manning who was now in charge of
00:16:08
operation Park set by
00:16:10
about after about 18 months I suppose um
00:16:13
he decided that we're never going to
00:16:16
catch this guy the way with conventional
00:16:18
policing what we're doing so he he had
00:16:22
read a little bit and had a little bit
00:16:24
of um insight into criminal profiling so
00:16:27
um that's the direction he took the
00:16:29
whole inquiry was a big move for him he
00:16:32
just stepped out if he'd got it wrong or
00:16:34
we hadn't caught Malcolm re we probably
00:16:37
would have
00:16:38
been put under a rock but um yes
00:16:42
criminal profiling like anyone that's um
00:16:44
watched an episode of CSI would have
00:16:47
heard the phrase before but this was
00:16:49
like brand new yeah like a brand new
00:16:51
sort of system or technology in the
00:16:52
mid90s eh yeah absolutely no what does
00:16:54
that mean exactly well criminal
00:16:56
profiling is it comes from
00:17:00
behavioral analysis of a rape scene
00:17:01
first and I think if anybody reads books
00:17:04
like mind Hunter and that from the the
00:17:06
FBI and America from John Douglas get a
00:17:09
better idea of it but behavioral
00:17:11
analysis you analyze the crime scene and
00:17:14
your your victims and everything and you
00:17:16
you can you can identify a personal kind
00:17:19
of um behavior of an offender and from
00:17:22
that you draw a a picture of the
00:17:26
offender so then you um you say right
00:17:29
how can we find this person from that
00:17:32
description of that that we know for
00:17:34
sure about this guy or we believe that
00:17:36
this guy is so um we we struggled with
00:17:41
that um and then uh we got on board a um
00:17:47
a computer analyst who was really good
00:17:50
Frankie vanderswag and he he managed we
00:17:52
managed to get all the information we
00:17:54
could off the wo computer because what
00:17:57
we were looking for was that person in
00:17:59
the past as opposed to now because now
00:18:02
we couldn't find him but he can't change
00:18:04
what he's been and from the lists that
00:18:07
we gathered from war
00:18:09
computer from those behaviors and that
00:18:13
kind of description we had um we were
00:18:15
able to sift out Joe Thompson yeah
00:18:18
there's even a book written at the time
00:18:19
by Jen corett called um caught by his
00:18:21
past yep absolutely beautiful title yeah
00:18:25
absolutely perfect um I mean it's hard
00:18:28
to imagine now like 29 29 years on um
00:18:32
you not being familiar with things like
00:18:34
criminal profiling and DNA but this was
00:18:36
in the very early stages of all that
00:18:37
wasn't it and DNA as well yeah
00:18:39
absolutely um I think DNA was used the
00:18:42
first time in about 85 or something
00:18:44
other in in the
00:18:46
UK me and
00:18:48
um and it had had been used a couple of
00:18:51
times in New Zealand as well um before
00:18:53
parked but you know it was fairly early
00:18:56
days and we had to have a um a large s
00:18:59
um to get a result back then now don't
00:19:02
anything like one hair sort of thing
00:19:05
amazing so um July 15 1995 take us back
00:19:10
to that Day 1995 when we spoke to Joe
00:19:14
yeah so the the the really early start
00:19:16
so the night the night before like do
00:19:18
you do you sleep do you sleep at all or
00:19:21
like Are you full of anxiety and so
00:19:23
you'd known he was the guy for a couple
00:19:25
of weeks and You' had people a month so
00:19:28
been people chasing him just to make
00:19:30
sure there was not going to be another
00:19:31
rape that happened AB once you knew who
00:19:33
the guy was um but yeah you and um John
00:19:36
Manning you the guys have to knock on
00:19:38
the knock on the door and there's like
00:19:39
50 cops all around the area like the the
00:19:42
the night before like this is a
00:19:44
potentially the biggest day of your
00:19:45
career to that point like do you do you
00:19:47
sleep before do you eat what what you
00:19:51
working through your mind the different
00:19:52
scenarios of what's going to happen oh
00:19:54
absolutely you're thinking about it um
00:19:56
but you try and sleep yeah I I don't
00:19:58
think I had too much trouble sleeping
00:20:00
I've never have had um so um yeah so we
00:20:03
it wasn't Johnny man it was Brett
00:20:05
Simpson that I went to the door with and
00:20:07
um because he was OC suspects for Park
00:20:09
so they get the job of interviewing and
00:20:11
I was there because I had done all the
00:20:13
work on behav I knew the scenes and the
00:20:15
victims so yeah so we knock on the door
00:20:17
we we um yeah you think about it the
00:20:20
drive there particularly you're thinking
00:20:22
right what are we going to receive how
00:20:24
how's this going to go down and and you
00:20:25
think of all the different um
00:20:27
potentially how it's going to work and
00:20:29
all the different ways we can we can
00:20:31
work with it and uh yeah it went pretty
00:20:33
well amazingly well really he just
00:20:36
opened the door not just to to us but to
00:20:39
his whole life you know that's what it
00:20:41
was and it went from there we
00:20:43
interviewed him for 20 OD hours I think
00:20:46
and he just clear the clearest chest of
00:20:50
all all that he had done amazing
00:20:51
interview really it was um not not from
00:20:55
as it was just to be there and listen to
00:20:57
it all
00:20:59
yeah so that interview situation like um
00:21:01
you all um most of us have got to go on
00:21:04
is what we see on TV shows is is it is
00:21:06
it a good C good cop bad cop thing
00:21:08
certainly not with J because you know he
00:21:11
made it quite clear he was going
00:21:13
to going to tell us all you know so we
00:21:16
just sat him down and without any
00:21:18
leading questions you just let him go
00:21:20
and just went from scene to scene to
00:21:21
Scene It was no nothing no good cop bad
00:21:24
cop and um um not I'm not saying that
00:21:27
that never happens but certainly wasn't
00:21:29
going to happen on this
00:21:30
occasion so so yeah 20 hours of
00:21:33
interviews you had with this guy like
00:21:35
the the worst rapist imaginable in New
00:21:38
Zealand history um do you sort of you
00:21:41
sort of bond with them oh yeah I I think
00:21:43
you're sitting in a room with them for
00:21:45
that long you do get a kind of a feel
00:21:47
that was a connection um for sure but
00:21:51
let's face when you come out of the
00:21:53
interview room and you and you a few
00:21:55
days later and you and you remember all
00:21:57
the victims and you think yes evil
00:22:00
you're you're really just kind of there
00:22:02
acting the part I think then you realize
00:22:05
that you haven't really got a connection
00:22:06
with this guy at all um it's kind of
00:22:09
yeah acting in a way isn't it I suppose
00:22:10
went him over yeah absolutely so so and
00:22:14
he he he had a history of getting on
00:22:17
with authority you know at the boy homes
00:22:20
they they they called him bonus Thompson
00:22:22
so um he he'd get on with anything in
00:22:26
Authority um he he need needed he wanted
00:22:29
to be um kind of uh have some sort of
00:22:34
control over him CU he couldn't control
00:22:36
himself so yeah he found boys homes and
00:22:40
later on Prison not such a bad place
00:22:43
really yeah so so yeah in those 20 hours
00:22:47
of interviews is is it all um just sort
00:22:50
of structured or is there small talk and
00:22:52
banter and some jokes not on that one
00:22:55
really um because it just it just kept
00:22:58
rolling we couldn't afford to spend too
00:23:00
much time like like we used to with with
00:23:03
some people U it's really um we just
00:23:06
kicked off and uh went from crime to
00:23:08
crime and he had explained what he did
00:23:10
and he had amazing memory of each
00:23:12
offense because of course they they go
00:23:14
over it in their own mind and they they
00:23:17
relive the moment so to speak so he
00:23:20
remembered all these scenes with
00:23:22
Incredible memory that he had for he
00:23:25
knew exactly where the house was what he
00:23:27
did what the victim looked like um and
00:23:30
how he got into the house that kind of
00:23:32
thing so yeah um yeah just went for
00:23:35
because we had a big list of off course
00:23:37
he started admitting to things that we
00:23:39
didn't even know about hadn't even been
00:23:40
reported to us so I had a list of about
00:23:44
40 that I believed he was responsible
00:23:46
for it ended up it was only one of that
00:23:49
that he that he wasn't too sure about in
00:23:50
the end so it was dropped but um he he
00:23:54
admitted a whole lot of others so I
00:23:56
think and he pleaded guilty straight
00:23:58
away
00:23:59
um Jo say it was kind of a bit of
00:24:00
anticlimax in a way but we we there was
00:24:03
some some crimes that we was never
00:24:05
charged with that he admitted to because
00:24:07
we couldn't get couldn't get it together
00:24:09
quick enough for his sentencing you know
00:24:11
so he only got charged I think with 50
00:24:12
attacks but there were
00:24:15
more and um is he eligible for parole
00:24:18
he's still incarcerated isn't he it's 29
00:24:20
years well he's definitely still in
00:24:21
custody he he was eligible for parole
00:24:24
after 25 years which is um gone uh he's
00:24:28
still in there um something to the
00:24:30
patrol board decide whether he's going
00:24:31
to ever get out again but uh what are
00:24:33
your thoughts on that well I think if
00:24:34
you look at the last line of um the
00:24:37
psychologist report on on Joe and it's U
00:24:41
um murder was the uh killing his victims
00:24:44
was where he was heading according to
00:24:46
the psychologist will rboard hear that
00:24:48
they might have have to think twice
00:24:50
about whether they want to let him out
00:24:51
and going along with the fact that he
00:24:53
couldn't stop himself he admitted that
00:24:54
himself he I could I couldn't stop I
00:24:57
couldn't let anybody get in my way
00:24:58
so um yeah being in prison um for all
00:25:03
those years has that changed him and if
00:25:05
you put him back out in a place where
00:25:07
he's already been already shown what he
00:25:09
what he's capable of I don't know um you
00:25:12
know they say that um a person who is in
00:25:16
a in a position where he can't steal um
00:25:19
do that mean he's not a thief um don't
00:25:25
know and um and what about his wife so
00:25:28
yeah you're not knock on the door and he
00:25:29
says something like I've been I've been
00:25:31
waiting for you guys and then he grabs
00:25:32
his shoes and his jacket and he he goes
00:25:34
with you and his wife she's got she's
00:25:36
got no idea she thinks he's being taken
00:25:37
away for a ched about drugs or something
00:25:41
I can't remember whe whether she was
00:25:42
actually even there I don't remember um
00:25:45
she was certainly interviewed by another
00:25:47
um detective so we were only
00:25:49
concentrating totally I never saw her so
00:25:52
I don't know even know she to this day
00:25:54
whether she was in the house or where
00:25:55
she was well I can't remember anyway but
00:25:59
we were concentrating on Joe really so
00:26:01
yeah I didn't see her um she didn't know
00:26:04
though she I mean which it does seem
00:26:07
alarming though your husband's
00:26:09
disappearing for a few hours in the
00:26:10
middle of the night every few weeks it's
00:26:13
but but but people live in this Twilight
00:26:16
Zone or thousands of of men in this kind
00:26:19
of position because I went on to to
00:26:21
crime watch numerous times to try and um
00:26:25
say well somebody must notice their
00:26:27
husband brother father or whatever
00:26:30
coming back wet through from on the
00:26:33
nights of these particular rapes because
00:26:34
there was quite a few of them um
00:26:37
somebody must know but never never came
00:26:39
up anywhere because there's so many men
00:26:42
who live in kind of in an environment
00:26:45
where they come and go willy-nilly and
00:26:47
it's just kind of the norm sometimes
00:26:49
they don't come home at all and you know
00:26:51
so you unbelievable how many people are
00:26:54
like
00:26:55
that Jes the these sort of things like
00:26:58
from a personal perspective like what
00:27:00
sort of what sort of toll does it take
00:27:01
on on on your mental health and stuff so
00:27:03
you know you you deal with something
00:27:05
like this then you go home at the end of
00:27:06
the day like how are you able to switch
00:27:08
off or
00:27:10
compartmentalize yeah I think well you
00:27:13
have to um I think you it's the other
00:27:15
way around I think you just when you get
00:27:17
up in the morning you put your armor on
00:27:19
and go back um I don't know where you
00:27:22
take your armor off whether it's D when
00:27:23
you're driving home or what but what it
00:27:26
what it does do is it makes one of the
00:27:29
downsides I think is you're dealing with
00:27:32
such shocking things shocking crimes and
00:27:35
that you that when you get home and and
00:27:38
the wife's got a a problem with one of
00:27:39
the kids that seem in comparison
00:27:42
absolutely nothing but to them is
00:27:45
massive you know and and you kind of sit
00:27:47
there oh yeah but uh that that's the one
00:27:50
thing that I used to always kind of I
00:27:52
used to wonder about rather than
00:27:54
anything else you
00:27:57
know yeah it's it's a lot to it's a big
00:27:59
burden isn't it it's a lot to carry
00:28:00
around and I I wonder how you can even
00:28:02
like when you're in the the throws of
00:28:03
this like say when the investigation's
00:28:05
going on and Joseph Thompson's still out
00:28:08
there like how you get home and switch
00:28:10
off how you be present with your kids
00:28:12
and and your wife and what they're going
00:28:14
on like this I don't know I'm prob maybe
00:28:17
I'm just projecting here but if it was
00:28:18
me I think i' would just always be weing
00:28:20
over in the back of my mind well yeah it
00:28:23
is a bit 24/7 um but you I don't know
00:28:27
how how we cap really but I I mean it
00:28:29
was not just me it was a whole team of
00:28:30
people we talking about and um I guess
00:28:33
we all deal with it differently but
00:28:36
um I I used to go on the way home I'd be
00:28:39
thinking about it on the way to work I'd
00:28:41
be thinking about it and as I said I
00:28:42
took files home at time which I'm not
00:28:44
meant to have but I did and um so yeah
00:28:48
really um but I was always there for the
00:28:50
kids and I I don't remember ever um
00:28:54
missing any sporting events or anything
00:28:56
you know I got six children so we we we
00:28:58
didn't have mobile phones in those days
00:28:59
so you had to kind of or organize
00:29:01
yourself in the morning when you leave
00:29:03
so yeah just concentrate on that I it
00:29:06
didn't kind of I don't think it impacted
00:29:08
me much but maybe it did maybe after
00:29:11
need need to ask that question to some
00:29:12
of my
00:29:13
children who now growing up and uh we're
00:29:16
all at the launch last night and uh I
00:29:18
think they're a pretty all well-rounded
00:29:20
wom and MOB to be honest they bloody
00:29:22
great kids yeah you you got a big family
00:29:23
Ace is it six kids yeah and 15 15
00:29:27
grandkids 15 and a half 15 and a half
00:29:29
sorry I forgot the half and two and two
00:29:32
grand great grand great yeah amazing
00:29:35
yeah it's um yeah pretty
00:29:37
big um yeah your um your wife must have
00:29:40
done a lot lot of the heavy lifting
00:29:42
though just just because you even though
00:29:43
you're as present is what you can it's
00:29:45
like such a busy and important job you
00:29:46
had yeah I think one of the things I
00:29:48
done was back then um the wife didn't
00:29:52
work nowadays they have to so I don't
00:29:55
know how it would work today um so she
00:29:58
was concentrating on the children and I
00:30:00
kind of going and coming and I get
00:30:02
called out all hours of the day and
00:30:03
night so um but you couldn't do that
00:30:06
today could you really I I don't think
00:30:09
um so yeah so that was important and she
00:30:13
you know she was a good mother yeah and
00:30:16
um just before we move on from um Joseph
00:30:18
Thompson I just wonder about the um the
00:30:20
like the high-profile offenders that you
00:30:22
um dealt with are you given the
00:30:25
relationship you've got with them and
00:30:27
you the hours spending them in interview
00:30:29
rooms and stuff are you are you able to
00:30:31
have anything other than lothing for
00:30:32
these
00:30:33
people depends on the crime at the end
00:30:36
of the day you can't go in there with
00:30:39
that loathing feeling because you're
00:30:40
you're not going to communicate very
00:30:42
well are you so you go and um try and be
00:30:45
um kind of as impartial as you can and
00:30:48
just kind of communicate that's you know
00:30:52
I think it's one of the things that's
00:30:53
kind of lost in recent years kind of the
00:30:57
ability to communicate with people no
00:30:58
matter where where they are in the scale
00:31:00
of things I I've never really had an
00:31:03
issue talking to anybody um whatever
00:31:07
their background where wherever they
00:31:08
come into it you know whether the the
00:31:12
bottom of the bucket criminal to the to
00:31:14
a to a crown solicitor you know that it
00:31:18
doesn't make any difference to me but uh
00:31:20
you got to be able to communicate to all
00:31:22
of them so I you know I I'm not too sure
00:31:26
about um
00:31:29
how I how I managed them and talk to
00:31:32
them all but I mean there was some
00:31:33
criminals that you uh you can deal with
00:31:37
with a lot of humor back in the day um
00:31:40
particularly burglars and that around
00:31:42
town and when I was a young detective or
00:31:44
uniform police officer we you know we
00:31:48
we' kind of be having a laugh when we
00:31:50
going down the cell block them to
00:31:52
fingerprint them you know to be honest
00:31:54
and um they're quite Charming like
00:31:55
they're saying a likable Rogue yeah and
00:31:57
well there's a chapter in there about
00:31:59
Dan and um Dan Dudson the burglar and I
00:32:01
don't know if you're going to get into
00:32:03
that or not but uh you know a great
00:32:05
character I mean a national criminal I
00:32:08
mean this guy got a heck of a history
00:32:10
and uh heck of a lot of burglaries
00:32:13
behind him they're still digging up his
00:32:15
some of his jewelry and and stuff around
00:32:17
the country
00:32:18
today so um but but a Buri Crump is kind
00:32:22
of humor you know and he used to write
00:32:24
it but and that was one of the reasons
00:32:25
why I wrote the I was going to write the
00:32:27
book with him you know um because he had
00:32:30
this style and uh and I I used to I
00:32:33
don't know if you know Phil Taylor is a
00:32:34
journalist around town here and uh and
00:32:37
Phil and I and and Dan used to sit
00:32:40
around and chat and Phil's a
00:32:42
lefty Dan's a criminal and I come from a
00:32:45
fairly conservative kind of background
00:32:47
we can sit around there and laugh and
00:32:49
and talk and and communicate you know
00:32:51
it's just it was good and and Dan was a
00:32:56
I'd call him a mate really at the end
00:32:57
you know and he and he did he gave you
00:33:00
his word and he'd stick with it he said
00:33:03
all I've got left is my word and he
00:33:06
doesn't matter whether he gave it to me
00:33:08
or to another criminal he was never an
00:33:10
informant never told me about anything
00:33:12
that was going on I knew he knew
00:33:14
about but um but because he had given
00:33:16
his word to them yeah all right so let's
00:33:20
um talk about Malcolm rayin out so mola
00:33:23
his um one of one of his many victims um
00:33:25
Susan um bad is who you um dedicated the
00:33:29
book to even though you never got to to
00:33:31
meet her um who is Malcolm
00:33:35
Raya well yeah how do we run into
00:33:37
Malcolm R well just after the end of
00:33:39
Park and Joe Thompson was dealt with
00:33:42
there was a series of rapes in Oakland
00:33:45
and uh called operation Atlas and they
00:33:49
asked me to go in there and get and have
00:33:51
a look at it and try to work out which
00:33:52
offenses were committed by one person
00:33:54
because I knew some of them must have
00:33:56
been so I did that and at the end of
00:33:59
putting about five or six of them
00:34:01
together I um I asked there was another
00:34:04
operation called operation Harvey that
00:34:07
was started at uh back at manaca where
00:34:09
we just finished operation Park took
00:34:11
over the same building so it was it was
00:34:14
following the same line as operation
00:34:16
Park criminal profiling you know the big
00:34:18
blooding lists like we did with Park and
00:34:23
um I knew something about the operation
00:34:27
park for victims and and their stories
00:34:30
because I was putting operation Park F
00:34:33
bed and it took me a couple of months
00:34:34
because it was a massive thing and I was
00:34:36
in the same building so I knew a little
00:34:38
bit about what's going on and I after
00:34:40
looking at these um connecting these
00:34:43
victims for operation atas I I asked for
00:34:45
permission to go and have a look at the
00:34:46
Harvey on in depth and it was clearly
00:34:49
the same guy so then I had to um I think
00:34:54
I pretty much convinced everybody was
00:34:56
pretty much on board but they they
00:34:58
wanted a forensic link first before they
00:35:00
were going to um connect the two
00:35:02
operations in the meantime I I wanted to
00:35:05
connect them chronologically and and
00:35:08
geographically to the to the one of
00:35:10
there must be other rapes out there you
00:35:11
don't just stop in 93 with the end of
00:35:13
Harvey and then start in um in ' 95 in
00:35:16
Oakland so we I looked at all the rapes
00:35:19
I could and sure enough he was a whole
00:35:21
lot of others that were around scattered
00:35:23
all around Oakland and uh and they they
00:35:26
connected the rapes series T Harvey and
00:35:30
and then we got the link the forensic
00:35:31
link to Atlas and Harvey so we're all on
00:35:34
board and um and then we had a bad rape
00:35:38
in in um New Market really I think they
00:35:41
called it epom UB New Market border
00:35:44
there somewhere and uh it had a
00:35:47
connection to Malcolm rowa and there was
00:35:49
a old file that was left over from Park
00:35:52
that also had a reference to Malcolm
00:35:54
rowa and uh that was the link so we did
00:35:59
a um uh he we couldn't find him um and
00:36:05
he uh we did a uh
00:36:09
did got blood from his family and uh
00:36:13
Familia linked him to to Malcolm
00:36:16
rowa and that was enough so we took him
00:36:20
out and in mangry so this was by this
00:36:23
stage it was mid 96 it was just about a
00:36:26
year after we looked up after Joe
00:36:29
Thompson was locked up so it was about
00:36:31
11 months later we locked up Malcolm
00:36:32
rway it was a a different lock up all
00:36:35
together from Joe Thompson we knew it
00:36:37
was going to be because Malcolm River's
00:36:39
history told us that um he was a uh he
00:36:43
hated hated Authority and the police to
00:36:45
the Bone and
00:36:47
um uh and that's how it turned out right
00:36:50
so not compliant at all no he was taken
00:36:53
out by armed
00:36:54
Defenders and um
00:36:57
he was in a shower I remember KY RS and
00:37:00
CLA who was actually suspects just as
00:37:02
simpo had been for Park and I and myself
00:37:05
were going to arrest him so he he was um
00:37:09
he was in the shower and AOS at the
00:37:11
house and he came out the front door
00:37:13
with a a tail wrapped around him and a
00:37:15
AOS dog very close Pursuit so he ended
00:37:19
up on the front lawn and that was the
00:37:20
beginning of uh our dealings with Mr Mr
00:37:24
Raya yeah that must be that must be
00:37:26
quite satisfying see someone like that
00:37:28
feeling so vulnerable with a tow around
00:37:30
being bitten by a dog yeah we were
00:37:32
hoping that it that low point in his
00:37:34
life he might just tell us something but
00:37:36
he didn't um yeah it was yeah it was it
00:37:40
was a good result that yeah and um yeah
00:37:44
Malcolm Raya um there there's another
00:37:46
name that comes that is often associated
00:37:47
with that Tanana pora a young man who
00:37:49
ended up um wrongly incarcerated for
00:37:51
what 20 years yeah 20 years for being
00:37:54
associated and um you yeah you credit to
00:37:58
you you you you had a feeling that this
00:38:00
was like a wrong or an unsafe conviction
00:38:03
yeah I based it all on um on Malcolm
00:38:06
rowa his
00:38:08
behavior back back in the early 80s he
00:38:12
had been picked up of some burglaries in
00:38:14
relation to I think it was an undercover
00:38:16
operation or something but it was quite
00:38:19
clear to me that from that point on he
00:38:22
never committed any crime that was not
00:38:25
uh with anybody else for obvious reason
00:38:27
reasons you know and I mentioned in the
00:38:28
book all these there's no way he's going
00:38:31
to um take I thought there's no way he's
00:38:33
going to take some 18year old plab mouth
00:38:36
little car thief um uh from a different
00:38:41
gang along to a rape um which he had you
00:38:45
know he targeted his victims so it
00:38:47
didn't make any sense and then I and
00:38:50
there was no poor um DNA connection
00:38:53
there it was only Malcolm robis um so
00:38:56
how did that fit
00:38:57
um it simply didn't and um and when
00:39:02
taner Porter was interviewed um he um to
00:39:06
try and explain away not being his DNA
00:39:10
he if he was there because he had made a
00:39:13
confession that he was that he was
00:39:14
present when the rape took place to the
00:39:16
murder so um to kind of confirm that and
00:39:21
hopefully pick up a bit of a reward I
00:39:23
believe um he he had to had to nominate
00:39:26
who it was was there and whose SE it
00:39:29
would have been so he nominated some
00:39:31
senior mongr mob members from um mie
00:39:35
dangerous men in in his environment
00:39:37
because he lived there and he was kind
00:39:39
of mildly associated with the mob and
00:39:44
uh and they were blooded and it wasn't
00:39:47
them I mean why would you nominate
00:39:49
somebody who's got is so dangerous to
00:39:52
him potentially um to emury and bring
00:39:56
heat down on the m so yeah it just
00:39:59
didn't make any sense at all and um of
00:40:02
course Malcolm Ray were denied it and
00:40:04
Court as we know so there was a lot of
00:40:07
reasons why it didn't make any sense and
00:40:11
behaviorally the Malcolm rer covered his
00:40:15
victim's um faces with a with varying
00:40:20
things blankets usually and he didn't um
00:40:25
and that wasn't only to stop them
00:40:26
identifying him that was to stop them
00:40:29
seeing his fantasy being carried out
00:40:32
because his behavior and his signature
00:40:35
was being carried out and he didn't want
00:40:37
them to see that he why would he want to
00:40:39
take an 18yearold kid along to see it
00:40:41
just I was quite convinced yeah and you
00:40:45
you were quite um and I'm gu this would
00:40:47
have been a hard thing to do but you you
00:40:49
were you were reasonably vocal about
00:40:50
this right over the years like U about
00:40:54
tanapa and um that that he wasn't
00:40:56
involved why why did you why did you
00:40:58
decide to do that when the easiest thing
00:40:59
would just be to keep your you know tow
00:41:01
the line bite your tongue well it came
00:41:04
to a came to a
00:41:05
head after a while um because I tanur
00:41:11
was in prison still and it was 20 years
00:41:13
on well it wasn't quite 20 years on when
00:41:15
I when I spoke out but um he was still
00:41:18
in prison and B I knew that we would
00:41:21
never get a conviction against Malcolm
00:41:23
rowa for that murder of Susan berett
00:41:26
when everyone even in even the people
00:41:27
who believed tan por was there everyone
00:41:30
knew that it was Malcolm row had
00:41:32
murdered Susan so we weren't going to
00:41:34
get a conviction um and then the third
00:41:37
reason was because if the when when Tim
00:41:41
mckin and um Krebs and them started to
00:41:44
kind of develop this kind
00:41:46
of the defense for por and get him get
00:41:49
him out that the only way the police
00:41:52
could uh they would have had to fight
00:41:54
fight my behavioral um expertise which
00:41:58
which would put rower in prison in the
00:41:59
first place for most of those rapes and
00:42:02
many other offenders since then when I
00:42:04
was in the criminal profiling unit so I
00:42:06
wasn't going to let that happen um
00:42:08
because it was all these people are
00:42:09
sitting in prison and they could see see
00:42:12
something possibly going to give them a
00:42:14
chance to get out and um and the
00:42:17
criminal profiling you going forward you
00:42:19
know it put a lot of work into that and
00:42:21
um and it's still going to this day
00:42:23
under a different name but you know it
00:42:25
was um I wasn't going to let that get
00:42:28
sacrificed because we made a because a
00:42:31
mistake was made many years earlier so
00:42:33
then um Phil Taylor rang me and uh yeah
00:42:37
I said what I said um I thought well
00:42:39
we've been going long enough you know
00:42:41
yeah was this in uh 2012 when you got
00:42:43
you got you got disciplined you got sort
00:42:45
of red over the calls a little bit for
00:42:47
yeah I did and I knew pissed off you
00:42:49
when you look back on that now like um
00:42:51
obviously you've been Vindicated but did
00:42:53
did it [ __ ] you off at the time well
00:42:55
what did piss me off was um to be honest
00:42:58
was the um the fact that they wouldn't
00:43:01
wouldn't do a review of it if I felt
00:43:04
that if they because there was so many
00:43:06
senior CIB members who who were
00:43:09
supportive as far as poor poor of being
00:43:11
innocent you know from different
00:43:12
directions you know they they'd been on
00:43:14
the early investigation he'd been
00:43:15
interviewed earlier on a year before he
00:43:18
got arrested and he was kicked out of
00:43:20
the police station just a uh someone who
00:43:22
was talking rubbish and um and a lot of
00:43:25
people were I didn't even know now
00:43:27
existed until later on um from different
00:43:30
angles and yeah so uh I was brushed off
00:43:34
then more so than back in the day when
00:43:36
we took r at court because there were
00:43:39
some of the people involved there um
00:43:42
genuinely believed that still genuinely
00:43:44
believed that pora was there so that
00:43:46
wasn't a problem it was later on when
00:43:48
all this started coming out it was quite
00:43:50
obvious what we needed to do was just
00:43:53
have an internal review of it and get a
00:43:56
get some detective inspector from Inver
00:43:59
Caro or somewhere come up and have a
00:44:01
look at it the evidence that was there
00:44:03
and speak to all these people
00:44:05
because police are not going to go and
00:44:08
talk to some private investigator um
00:44:11
willy-nilly they're going to close shop
00:44:14
but it's an internal review they would
00:44:16
have and that could have saved a lot of
00:44:19
embarrassment and and when I was taken
00:44:22
to the um professional standard little
00:44:25
meeting they had to be on the hand and
00:44:28
um and growl at me I um I I said then
00:44:32
that it was um I knew where it was going
00:44:34
to end up and it did exactly where it
00:44:36
ended up yeah that must have that must
00:44:39
have must have hurt though cuz here you
00:44:40
are you you know um devoted your whole
00:44:43
life to this um to this career you
00:44:45
decorated for the work you've done and
00:44:47
then you know suddenly you've been
00:44:49
almost dismissed really for what ended
00:44:51
up being being factual well my um I got
00:44:56
the police associ involved in it because
00:44:58
I've been summoned to court to produce
00:44:59
stuff that the police wouldn't give me
00:45:01
and I and I so so I got a solicitor bar
00:45:05
to work for me through the association
00:45:08
Police Association and uh and I had the
00:45:10
Police Association involved as well and
00:45:13
and what it was annoying was the fact
00:45:16
that they um that hung me out to drive
00:45:18
and the the Barrister said that he said
00:45:21
you've been hung out to
00:45:23
DW so yeah that was annoying and there
00:45:27
was um yeah there was a a police report
00:45:28
that was buried for 17 years that came
00:45:30
out um last year um even though I mean
00:45:34
it's it's long gone it's in your past
00:45:35
now but um that must have been
00:45:37
satisfying yeah look I felt Vindicated I
00:45:40
I I didn't even remember making that
00:45:42
report but would have been um I think
00:45:44
before would have been late in n in in
00:45:47
2006 just before I retired from as a
00:45:51
sword member and I think I put it
00:45:54
in because I wanted a record to be there
00:45:57
that this was the reason why I felt like
00:45:58
this you know and um and felt as I did
00:46:01
and and I didn't remember writing that
00:46:04
report until Eugene Bingham I think it
00:46:06
was contacted me and and and had it
00:46:08
reported in the paper so and I thought
00:46:11
oh wow yeah I did write that obviously I
00:46:14
did um but what was good part about it
00:46:17
wasn't it it show that way back in 2006
00:46:21
was my view where some people might have
00:46:23
thought oh you just dream this up later
00:46:24
on you know but that was always
00:46:27
the way I saw things yeah it's
00:46:29
timestamped in history yeah um and
00:46:32
inspector Steve reliford the the guy
00:46:33
that caught tan pora has he offered any
00:46:35
sort of an olive branch or anything he
00:46:38
was he at the book launch last night
00:46:40
well no ST steeve wasn't here but um
00:46:43
look Steve's kind of gone his way and um
00:46:46
you I haven't spoken to Steve for a long
00:46:48
time we're pretty close back a while
00:46:49
back but um yeah I I haven't heard from
00:46:53
him yeah um yeah and like in hindsight
00:46:56
how did the police get there so horribly
00:46:58
wrong was it just the Des desperation to
00:47:01
get a conviction for a high-profile
00:47:02
crime or I think they believe that I
00:47:05
mean t Laura put his name in the Hat it
00:47:07
wasn't as if they dragged him off the
00:47:08
street and beat ANM Mission out of him
00:47:11
he he put his hand up and and it's it's
00:47:14
hard to kind of you know you got a
00:47:16
homicide that's a year old or whatever
00:47:18
it was at the time and somebody's saying
00:47:20
I was there and I can tell you who else
00:47:23
was there well you're not going to walk
00:47:25
away from that are you and
00:47:27
so I can understand fully that um it was
00:47:30
just later I
00:47:32
mean it was later when I looked at um
00:47:35
Raya that really pushed me in that
00:47:37
direction I I I've never met tanor I
00:47:41
never had anything to do with him at any
00:47:43
stage
00:47:46
um well that was that was going to be
00:47:48
the next thing I I was going to ask I
00:47:49
was going to so he ended up um for
00:47:51
anyone that doesn't know the taner por
00:47:52
story end up getting released and
00:47:53
getting 3.5 million in compensation so
00:47:56
you haven't you haven't hav seen him
00:47:57
since um I've never seen no yeah spoken
00:47:59
on the phone no right never never had
00:48:02
any contact with him
00:48:04
whatsoever
00:48:06
um yeah crazy crazy chapter to like a
00:48:09
remarkable career yeah did it put a bit
00:48:12
of a dampner on on things in a way like
00:48:14
sour taste in your mouth oh I think so I
00:48:17
think so yeah um you know they talk
00:48:21
about loyalty and um loyalty is a
00:48:24
two-way street isn't it and uh I think
00:48:27
yeah I mean the problem problem of the
00:48:30
police
00:48:31
is at the top of the Heap it becomes
00:48:35
political you know it's why I stayed as
00:48:36
a detective Sergeant I I didn't even
00:48:38
want to get involved in any of that
00:48:39
stuff so you know I understand I know
00:48:42
some good people who've gone up in the
00:48:44
ranks and um and I think you know it
00:48:48
does become political up there you've
00:48:50
got to kind of agree with policy and
00:48:52
stuff and and my personality I don't
00:48:57
I I've struggled to do that so yeah this
00:49:00
goes back to what we were talking about
00:49:01
at the beginning about you being like an
00:49:03
old school copper yeah just no um yeah
00:49:07
not much not much time for the for the
00:49:08
BS yeah it's uh and there's plenty of it
00:49:13
but no I but look there's so many of the
00:49:19
ncos and and inspectors are on the front
00:49:21
line they're the people that run the
00:49:23
police and um in my opinion you know
00:49:26
they're the people that catch the
00:49:28
criminals um and whatever comes from up
00:49:31
up top I think a lot of people that get
00:49:33
up to the top hierarchy it's just my
00:49:35
kind of view is they they feel like
00:49:37
they've got to come up with some great
00:49:39
idea but what they don't realize is that
00:49:41
great idea is just the same idea dressed
00:49:43
up differently that somebody else
00:49:44
brought up 10 years ago and didn't fail
00:49:46
then yeah yeah yeah yeah um with the
00:49:50
criminal profiling stuff that you were
00:49:52
um you sort of
00:49:54
spearheaded what other um yeah from us
00:49:57
new zealanders um were you sort of
00:49:59
involved with or associated with well
00:50:02
yeah I I gave a lot of evidence over the
00:50:05
in the years of the criminal profiling
00:50:07
unit against a lot of Serial offenders
00:50:10
and um some of them are are quite well
00:50:12
known and
00:50:13
um yeah it was good to be a part of um
00:50:17
helping it wasn't I didn't I didn't
00:50:20
arrest them or anything like that I just
00:50:22
gave some evidence that tried to help
00:50:24
the them get them convicted you know we
00:50:26
did profiling but we also gave evidence
00:50:29
behaviorally to at what they call Joiner
00:50:32
hearings to kind of so you've got three
00:50:35
or four rapes that believe to be
00:50:37
connected I give evidence that connects
00:50:40
them at a join hearing I don't
00:50:42
necessarily give evidence of their trial
00:50:43
even but the fact that you get four
00:50:45
victims together saying the same thing
00:50:48
is pretty powerful um evidence so yeah
00:50:51
get a lot of satisfaction that and a lot
00:50:53
of them are wellknown offenders they're
00:50:55
all still in prison yeah or
00:50:59
dead um best and worst days on the job
00:51:02
worst best and worst yeah I I think the
00:51:06
only way I can look at that is um the
00:51:09
worst days is way back and I used to go
00:51:12
to fatal motor accidents on the motorway
00:51:14
and bodies all over the place as like a
00:51:16
young fellow and um yeah it was um I
00:51:20
still have memories of that you know wet
00:51:22
horrible days up up by Tip Top corner it
00:51:25
was in the day you know and you'd see
00:51:27
these bloody mutilated bodies all over
00:51:29
the bloody place and and I um yeah
00:51:32
that's they're the worst things and and
00:51:34
children deaths they're always hard to
00:51:36
cope with and I think you ask any police
00:51:38
officer that you know they're the
00:51:39
hardest to deal with and um especially
00:51:42
when you got kidon they're the worst um
00:51:45
the best um looking up Jay Thompson
00:51:49
sitting in court with malcol r got delt
00:51:51
to by Justice Anderson and um yeah
00:51:56
they're good days and and getting in the
00:51:59
criminal profiling unit the one of the
00:52:01
last ones we ever did criminal profile
00:52:04
we profile them as number one on the
00:52:06
suspect list they're all good
00:52:08
days yeah is that something you
00:52:10
following now I can't remember what it
00:52:12
was about but Malcolm rayell was in the
00:52:14
news a couple of years ago and uh you
00:52:15
know he appeared in court and it's the
00:52:17
first time the public had seen him I
00:52:19
guess in 20 odd years um and he's
00:52:21
looking particularly grim and unhealthy
00:52:24
um is that satisfying for you to see
00:52:25
that he's uh were you just indifferent
00:52:28
well yeah I I did um I I did notice that
00:52:32
he was physically I went along to his
00:52:34
sing so
00:52:37
um yeah he was physically um he didn't
00:52:40
look great he because he was so very
00:52:44
um U big on his physicality you know and
00:52:48
um his strength and he depended on it
00:52:50
didn't he and uh U was part of his
00:52:54
Persona really um so he obviously looked
00:52:57
I don't know if that's what what you
00:52:58
look like after 22 years of sitting in
00:53:00
prison I don't know but I remember
00:53:02
thinking at the time I thought you know
00:53:04
you you're looking pretty crook mate but
00:53:06
I I I could see his eyes were still the
00:53:09
same you know he looked out and um it
00:53:13
was It was kind of I'll take his all on
00:53:16
you know that was that was Malcolm R
00:53:18
where he his hatred and his uh uh never
00:53:23
give up kind of attitude towards
00:53:28
um Society really and uh and and then a
00:53:31
month later I got cancer so I thought I
00:53:34
hope hope I outlive that buet that was
00:53:37
the only feeling I had you know thought
00:53:39
I thought God he's not going to outlive
00:53:41
me is he but um that was the only real
00:53:44
thing I didn't really give it toss what
00:53:46
he looked like yeah um yeah that was
00:53:48
your prostate cancer diagnosis in 2019
00:53:50
so you retire in 2017 17 and then a c
00:53:55
yeah a couple of years lat it's funny
00:53:56
how that happens it's almost like you
00:53:58
you know you have this hectic insanely
00:54:00
busy career for decades and then you
00:54:02
finally sort of relax and your body it's
00:54:06
it's it's interesting that when I
00:54:09
joined the compulsory Asia retirement
00:54:12
was
00:54:13
60 so that's what we always thought we
00:54:15
were going to do and uh you know that
00:54:18
they reckon that the average life
00:54:20
expectancy after 60 at that time was 2
00:54:23
years for a police officer and goes back
00:54:26
to just what you were saying do you live
00:54:28
that kind of life and then stop and you
00:54:31
die if they'd kept going would they have
00:54:32
lived longer I don't know that
00:54:34
incredible thing two years you think
00:54:37
that some of them live until their 90s
00:54:38
makes you wonder how many of them die
00:54:41
within months of
00:54:43
leaving it was just a little statistic
00:54:46
that always kind of stuck in my mind I
00:54:48
wondered
00:54:49
why yeah yeah how are you now like do
00:54:52
you have any like PTSD or have you have
00:54:55
you had any um therapy or anything to un
00:54:57
unpack some of the stuff that you've
00:54:58
seen over the years or I I don't I don't
00:55:01
think so I think some people are lucky
00:55:04
you know there's some very strong people
00:55:06
out there that just can't deal with
00:55:09
death and and especially if it's
00:55:12
somebody they know and they crumble and
00:55:15
and sometimes it's how many times they
00:55:17
go out to scenes like that and then
00:55:20
they'll seen they hit the walls like
00:55:21
Marathon running you hit the wall some
00:55:24
point you kind of done Steve Rood used
00:55:26
to always put it you've gone to one
00:55:27
battle too many um and and people fall
00:55:31
over and but it didn't happen to me
00:55:33
doesn't mean that I'm stronger than
00:55:34
anyone else it just means that somewhere
00:55:36
in my in my psyche I can kind of deal
00:55:38
with something that they can't and it
00:55:40
mean nothing else than that really yeah
00:55:42
so there's no obvious um things that you
00:55:45
can pinpoint about how you you dealt
00:55:46
with it like did you did you run through
00:55:47
your years in the force or were you
00:55:49
partial to a couple of drinks in the
00:55:50
evening to wind down I think we all were
00:55:53
to some extent um yeah there was a few
00:55:56
few few babies along the way for sure um
00:56:00
but um yeah I think I think the grard
00:56:04
humor helped us police bars you know
00:56:06
that they rubbish you know we we laughed
00:56:09
and and cried in those
00:56:12
places yeah I had a um a guy on the
00:56:14
podcast last year I I don't expect you
00:56:16
to be familiar with the name but it's um
00:56:17
Billy Evans and he was the police
00:56:19
commissioner in um Boston during the uh
00:56:22
uh during the mar the Marathon bombing
00:56:24
got 2012 I think it was he said the same
00:56:27
sort of thing um he he said you know
00:56:29
just black humor is how they they dealt
00:56:31
with it and he goes quite often you know
00:56:33
um there'd be like a horrific crime that
00:56:35
had taken place and people would see
00:56:36
like a roped off area and a bunch of
00:56:38
cops standing around laughing and he's
00:56:39
like it would often look bad like out of
00:56:41
context but um it was just like a coping
00:56:43
mechanism yeah it is you well if you've
00:56:47
read womo and the choir boys and some of
00:56:50
those kind of books I don't know if you
00:56:51
have or not but he talks about that kind
00:56:53
of thing and and he and it some of the
00:56:56
humor is is very very dark and um he
00:57:01
talked about a fatal motor action on the
00:57:03
motorway on one incident in the choir
00:57:05
boys I think it was the choir boys and
00:57:06
he and there was all these all these
00:57:09
people kind of looking over traffic
00:57:11
coming the other way looking over
00:57:13
Constable are they all right and this
00:57:16
this police officer picks up the head of
00:57:17
one of the victims and says I don't know
00:57:19
but he doesn't look too good this kind
00:57:21
of thing know that really kind of rough
00:57:24
stuff um but uh Jesus he's obviously
00:57:27
reached the point where for God's sake
00:57:29
just keep moving and piss off yeah you
00:57:31
know that um yeah so dark humor here
00:57:35
graveyard humor it's what it is and it's
00:57:37
not only the police I mean the military
00:57:39
must have it and I'm sure A&E at the
00:57:42
hospitals must have it a farm and that
00:57:44
go and you know all these different
00:57:46
people I'm sure they've got the same
00:57:48
thing goodby yeah yeah actually I had
00:57:51
had a go around last week um for the
00:57:53
podcast called um Dr inti Who's um an a
00:57:57
an A&E doctor here in Oakland and um
00:57:59
yeah he said the same sort of same sort
00:58:00
of thing but he said it's um seems like
00:58:02
it's a very Bleak place these days like
00:58:04
the amount of shootings that they deal
00:58:06
with every single weekend that you just
00:58:07
never even read about in the news
00:58:09
anymore no it's a it's the thing about
00:58:11
shooting is um I think as long as you
00:58:14
get a breather between each one you can
00:58:16
kind of cope but I remember in in I
00:58:19
think it was
00:58:20
93 we had 13 shotgun shootings in six
00:58:24
months and including the Scher Slaughter
00:58:27
and pukao and and um they were all kind
00:58:30
of different um but it was one after the
00:58:33
other bang bang bang bang bang and uh
00:58:35
and you know we we were worried about
00:58:37
some of the younger staff then because
00:58:39
God there's only so much especially
00:58:42
shotguns and they they make a bit of a
00:58:45
mess hey I put on um Instagram that you
00:58:48
were coming today and asked if there was
00:58:49
any questions and there was tons so
00:58:51
these are these are a bit sort of
00:58:53
scatter gun all over the place but um
00:58:55
you want to answer some of these
00:58:55
questions
00:58:56
okay um youth crime why is it so bad and
00:58:59
what do you think needs to be
00:59:01
done gosh what a great question that is
00:59:04
I wish I knew the answer um I've never
00:59:07
never been a youth aid but um you know
00:59:10
it's the old story of give me a give me
00:59:12
a boy from until he's seven I'll give
00:59:14
you the man and how do we how do we do
00:59:16
that people I think everybody accepts it
00:59:19
we need to kind of somehow get in there
00:59:22
um to these families you know the Joe
00:59:24
Thompsons and ravers and all the rest
00:59:26
and that get abused and all the rest of
00:59:27
neglected abandoned at an early age it's
00:59:31
it's all all to know that but what do
00:59:32
you do about it I got no answer um we
00:59:36
can't just go and SNF them um at the age
00:59:39
of four I me you go to a you go to a um
00:59:42
a criminal's address and some
00:59:43
four-year-old comes out and kicks you in
00:59:45
the shin and tells you to [ __ ] off um
00:59:48
you know where you're going to be seeing
00:59:50
that kid next 10 years time but what do
00:59:52
we do I don't know I got no answer
00:59:56
sad for those kids it's like they never
00:59:59
yeah they start on the back foot and
01:00:00
they' never given a chance I I was um um
01:00:03
the guardian of a a a Child part of a
01:00:06
family adoption thing a number of years
01:00:07
ago and as a result of that um because
01:00:09
he was too young to have therapy myself
01:00:11
and my partner at the time we had lots
01:00:13
of the therapy on his behalf and and we
01:00:15
learned so much like 80% of a brain
01:00:17
development's done in the first thousand
01:00:18
days so thousand everything everything
01:00:21
you say you give me a boy for seven
01:00:22
years and I'll give I'll give you the
01:00:23
man but it's like yeah life has sort of
01:00:26
won and lost in the first three years
01:00:28
believe it or not I one of one of the
01:00:30
chapter one of the guys I talked about
01:00:32
in the profiling the profiling that I
01:00:35
profiled um was was exactly that I don't
01:00:39
know if you remember but it was a when
01:00:40
he was doted out I think it's three and
01:00:43
he said you're going to be my parent now
01:00:45
I mean wow it tells you heaps doesn't it
01:00:47
you know yeah it sure does unsolved
01:00:50
cases do they occupy much space in your
01:00:52
mind
01:00:58
well you think of them um there's not
01:01:00
that many to be honest um some of them
01:01:04
might appear to be unsolved to some
01:01:06
people but as long as you kind of know
01:01:09
um you can take it take a file for as
01:01:12
far as you can and sometimes you know
01:01:15
you're never going to get the answer
01:01:17
here you know it's like having a jigsaw
01:01:19
puzzle in this three or four pieces
01:01:20
missing you know I I don't I
01:01:23
don't you can only do what you can do
01:01:26
and you know I can live with that must
01:01:29
be frustrating when you when you know
01:01:31
who the person is but you just don't
01:01:33
have the the correct evidence or the
01:01:35
right amount of evidence or that must be
01:01:37
infuriating yeah I mean it happens and
01:01:40
and I think the red fox T was a good
01:01:42
example of that you know we knew who the
01:01:44
people were responsible for it were but
01:01:46
we didn't quite have enough until and
01:01:48
then interestingly enough one of the
01:01:50
guys who is's now dealing with that um
01:01:53
who who locked up the offenders
01:01:56
um Mike hawood he he was in the Under 12
01:01:59
rugby team with my son um which we
01:02:02
coached and at the time that the red fox
01:02:04
went down and here we are he was locking
01:02:07
him up 30 years later you know or 25
01:02:09
years or whatever it was yeah what's the
01:02:11
red fox for anyone that um can't recall
01:02:13
that story there was a a murder at the
01:02:14
red fox Tavern of a man Mr Bush and um
01:02:20
and they went there was two guys went in
01:02:22
and shot him down doing an armed robbery
01:02:25
and
01:02:26
uh we kind of it went on for a long
01:02:30
time what are some things that you can
01:02:32
just not unsee even with
01:02:35
time I don't have any trouble with that
01:02:38
um but smells I do um some smells come
01:02:41
back every now and then um I think it
01:02:44
smells the strongest sense to be
01:02:46
honest what's it what do you mean what
01:02:49
death okay yeah and motor accidents and
01:02:51
you know I
01:02:53
still going to those fatal motor
01:02:55
accidents this before we used in a place
01:02:58
we used to deal with non used non injury
01:03:02
accidents any injury accidents the
01:03:04
police dealt with and strictly fatals
01:03:06
and the transport dealt with um the non-
01:03:09
injury so we went to all these fatal
01:03:11
matter actions and the the smell of
01:03:13
three smells always came out was
01:03:17
petrol um booze alcohol
01:03:21
and
01:03:23
the theer body parts that that b come
01:03:27
out it's smell all of its own those
01:03:29
three always live with you you know they
01:03:33
um just something that wom me you know I
01:03:37
remember going to a a little kid who
01:03:39
sniffed petrol under his house for a
01:03:41
long time and and died under there and
01:03:43
he'd been under there in the summer and
01:03:44
he he um he was almost flu me pull him
01:03:48
out the smell um I didn't mind looking
01:03:52
at it I couldn't didn't have a problem
01:03:54
with that but they brought out a
01:03:55
photograph two weeks later and the smell
01:03:57
comes straight back bang you know um
01:04:01
thing about smelling was it wasn't until
01:04:03
later into my career that I found out
01:04:05
wish that taught me at training College
01:04:07
um that when you when you go into a a
01:04:10
particularly bad death where somebody's
01:04:12
been dead for a while and the smells
01:04:14
enormous your first first instinct is to
01:04:17
go in and go back out again to take a
01:04:19
breath of fresh air but you don't um and
01:04:23
it was taught to me by Kevy Richard who
01:04:25
went over to the um did a lot of the
01:04:29
stuff over in um Thailand when the tital
01:04:32
wave went through over and they did at
01:04:34
work over there and they in the with the
01:04:36
smells all the time so um he said what
01:04:39
you do is you go in and you stay there
01:04:42
until your brain gets rid of it as far
01:04:44
as being like it adapts it adapts the
01:04:47
brain great thing it figures it out and
01:04:50
and you just stay in there and what the
01:04:52
hell they didn't tell me that a training
01:04:54
cols could saved your a lot of
01:04:58
grief yeah I don't know if I'm um I'm
01:05:01
normal or not but I'm I'm I was just
01:05:03
thinking about this while you gave that
01:05:04
answer I'm 51 years old I've I've seen a
01:05:07
couple of dead bodies in my life but
01:05:08
only in like open casket situations and
01:05:11
and funerals you know I've never seen so
01:05:13
the sort of stuff that you you're seeing
01:05:15
on um probably like a week toe basis or
01:05:17
whatever like it's really
01:05:19
abnormal well yeah I suppose you get
01:05:22
used to it I I don't know if you get
01:05:24
totally used to it or not but when I
01:05:26
started I I remember I used to think
01:05:29
about the people you know and and um
01:05:33
especially if they're young people in
01:05:35
fatal motor accidents and and the likes
01:05:38
you know especially in the young days
01:05:39
and I think these poor buggers you know
01:05:42
especially in the mot down Tip Top
01:05:44
quarter I always keep going back to that
01:05:46
but I remember a few of them there and
01:05:48
you think a few a few hours ago these
01:05:50
people were were dancing and having a
01:05:53
good time their life was full ahead of
01:05:54
them the gone and I yeah that was that
01:05:59
was hard and I but I thought about it
01:06:02
then a lot but as as you go along you
01:06:04
kind of it just become I hate to say it
01:06:07
but it becomes routine really like sick
01:06:09
nature yeah yeah um but I'm surely like
01:06:14
knocking on someone's door to tell them
01:06:15
that uh like a family member's gone that
01:06:17
that never got easier yeah no it never
01:06:21
good and it depends a little bit you we
01:06:23
struck some of them where that tell to
01:06:25
bug her off before You' cuz some of the
01:06:27
people that you were going to inform
01:06:29
come from families that didn't like us
01:06:31
very much so you I remember one in
01:06:33
particular and they and I said well
01:06:35
there's no easy way to say this but he's
01:06:38
um you if you got a brother called so
01:06:41
and so when he's down at the Mory you
01:06:43
know you're going to come with me and
01:06:44
identify him you know that you got to be
01:06:46
abrupt at some point other they'll kick
01:06:48
you off the doorstep so it all kind of
01:06:50
yeah kind of learn to kind of run with
01:06:52
them I suppose like that's the the worst
01:06:55
news imaginable to to give to another
01:06:57
human being did it help other areas of
01:07:00
your life and that you know having
01:07:02
difficult conversations that most of us
01:07:03
would probably procrastinate over you
01:07:05
became very good at them because you
01:07:07
realize it's this difficult conversation
01:07:08
is actually not a matter of life and
01:07:10
death well some people who are lot
01:07:11
better at it than others you know I
01:07:13
don't think it' ever come easy for me
01:07:15
that's for sure and I don't think it'
01:07:16
come easy for many people but um perhaps
01:07:19
some kind of dealt with it better than
01:07:20
others you know if you got a um if
01:07:23
you're an EXC car salesman or something
01:07:24
perhaps
01:07:26
do you follow high-profile trials now
01:07:28
just out of curiosity or you sort
01:07:31
disengaged with the news yeah yeah not
01:07:33
really I I I don't watch the news much
01:07:35
to be
01:07:36
honest um yeah know it's all too sad
01:07:40
really a lot of
01:07:42
it you just yeah happy with your rose
01:07:44
gardens and yeah look I mean and happy
01:07:46
with I like to surround myself with
01:07:48
happy people and people that I want to
01:07:50
be with that's the other good thing
01:07:51
about retirement you don't have to kind
01:07:52
of be in the in the company of people
01:07:55
you don't want to be you know you just
01:07:57
choose yeah um some more questions from
01:07:59
Instagram did you ever come across any
01:08:01
dirty
01:08:02
cops I don't how dirty but some of them
01:08:05
were um a bit naughty um in some of
01:08:09
their behavior but you know in all my
01:08:12
time in South Oakland you know they talk
01:08:14
about planting evidence and that kind of
01:08:16
stuff I never saw it now I can honestly
01:08:19
hand on heart say that you know I never
01:08:21
saw evidence getting planted or anything
01:08:23
like that and then and I know a lot of
01:08:26
people probably won't believe me but
01:08:28
that's a fact you know I I I'm hoping
01:08:32
that you know we had a reputation in the
01:08:35
police department as one of the least
01:08:37
corrupt least corrupt country for
01:08:39
starters and then of course him
01:08:41
naturally goes from that as to go the
01:08:42
least corrupt Police Department I hope
01:08:44
it stays like
01:08:46
that um can he recall a time that he
01:08:48
feared for his
01:08:50
life I feared for my life um there fear
01:08:55
but I I don't think I ever feared for my
01:08:57
life um certainly fear that I was going
01:08:59
to get um dealt to for sure but um no I
01:09:05
think it's probably more so nowadays
01:09:06
with all these firearms that are around
01:09:08
poor guys out there and girls out there
01:09:10
now um I think it's a bit more dangerous
01:09:13
now as far as thinking you might be
01:09:15
going to die today yeah by the way we
01:09:18
just um while you giving that answer
01:09:19
weird like a couple hundred meters up
01:09:21
the road from Oakland Central police
01:09:22
station and there was just a siren going
01:09:23
past you didn't even flinch or anything
01:09:26
did it take a while after retirement for
01:09:27
you to better switch off to those noises
01:09:29
or no it was a for a long time it would
01:09:33
be my wife or or or somebody else that I
01:09:36
might be in the car with oh I want to
01:09:37
wear that g i I hadn't even thought
01:09:39
about it you know I just and they said
01:09:42
oh it must be something serious going on
01:09:43
there I said it could be a motor
01:09:46
accident it could be anything could be a
01:09:48
burglary a domestic vus I just don't
01:09:50
think about it I and I'm not interested
01:09:53
but when I was in the CB um I think it's
01:09:58
common because I've discussed this with
01:10:00
some of the guys they
01:10:02
say you you look at suspicious vehicles
01:10:05
or or something going on you think
01:10:07
what's that car doing there and and it
01:10:10
was be the wives that would pick you up
01:10:12
on say what are you looking at you're
01:10:13
not at work now that but it it does be
01:10:17
you do get like that I mean but
01:10:20
afterwards I mean I I couldn't give a
01:10:22
toss you you know police guy comes along
01:10:25
okay right so the notes section of your
01:10:27
phone there's not like a whole lot of
01:10:28
number plates of vehicles of potential
01:10:31
interest that you've seen and I'll get
01:10:33
on you
01:10:35
um can chuk remember the first time he
01:10:38
saw a dead
01:10:39
body well the first time I saw um
01:10:43
anything at all was a like that you know
01:10:45
I was we didn't even go to funerals when
01:10:47
I was a kid you know we were really
01:10:50
protected kind of environment I was
01:10:51
naive as hell but when we got to
01:10:53
training College they took us to the
01:10:54
morch and they cut up a brain a couple
01:10:57
of the guys fell over and fainted I
01:11:00
didn't but but you know this is the
01:11:02
first time I've seen anything at all and
01:11:03
then of course after that it was yeah I
01:11:06
don't know about the first time but it
01:11:07
probably would have been at a fatal
01:11:08
motor accident or something or a or a
01:11:11
sudden death I mean sudden death were
01:11:14
common as one thing you know you suicide
01:11:18
well not only suicides anyone that would
01:11:21
that you didn't have a doctor
01:11:22
certificate for you was kind of you had
01:11:24
the police had to attend you know and um
01:11:27
and then put a coroners report in and
01:11:29
and a lot of them some of them were kind
01:11:30
of people who had been you know old
01:11:33
people who might have been dead for a
01:11:34
week in the middle of summer or or or as
01:11:38
you say suicides hanging blowing their
01:11:40
heads off um um yeah um I honestly can't
01:11:45
remember the first one I think it would
01:11:46
have been a fatal motor accent
01:11:49
probably um what would he say is the
01:11:51
most rewarding moment of his police
01:11:53
career
01:11:55
I think sitting with victims in the
01:11:58
court when rayel got convicted and
01:12:01
sentenced I think that was the biggest
01:12:04
the best best moment of
01:12:06
particularly um and and Justice Anderson
01:12:11
giving his little standup
01:12:14
Raya and uh it was it was really good
01:12:17
and some of the stuff he he he said in
01:12:20
his sentencing um would um bring tears
01:12:24
to your eyes really I mean it was so
01:12:27
just toor stps off them really stuff
01:12:30
real good stuff and I it's in the book
01:12:32
but I yeah that was good um someone
01:12:36
wants to know should police be armed oh
01:12:39
y when I was in the police I always said
01:12:42
no um but now it's not for me to say I'm
01:12:47
not out there um things have changed and
01:12:51
um I think they should ask the people on
01:12:53
the front line what they think and I
01:12:55
can't answer it any better than you can
01:12:57
probably don't really um cop shows on TV
01:13:01
does he have any favorites and is there
01:13:03
any resemblance to real life
01:13:07
well I've asked been asked this this
01:13:10
many years ago and I and um when I first
01:13:13
joined um there was a program on
01:13:15
television called Hill Street Blues and
01:13:19
I I used to watch that because it was
01:13:21
humorous and I I used to laugh at that
01:13:24
but but lot of cup shows now I don't
01:13:26
watch it all probably the one that I
01:13:29
liked was foil I don't if you've ever
01:13:33
seen foil it was a a British program and
01:13:37
during Second World War and it was about
01:13:39
a detective superintendent who um was
01:13:43
soling crimes and things it was all
01:13:45
these connections with the war and um
01:13:48
MI5 and MI6 were coming in and getting
01:13:51
in the way of his investigation and that
01:13:54
and what I like about foil was he never
01:13:57
took his eye off the ball all he hunted
01:13:59
for was the truth regardless of all the
01:14:02
political interference that came along
01:14:04
and he he just keep going straight ahead
01:14:06
and never lost track of what he was
01:14:08
after and um yeah I thought I enjoyed
01:14:12
him um someone sent me a message on
01:14:14
Instagram my daughter is 21 and wants to
01:14:16
join the place it's been her dream since
01:14:18
she was 16 what advice or words of
01:14:20
wisdom SL encouragement would you give
01:14:23
her about the profession
01:14:26
yeah i' what I'd say would
01:14:29
be go through with your dream you've got
01:14:32
to do that but um it's just those just
01:14:36
kind of keep your head about you for
01:14:39
those first six months in the job and
01:14:42
and hope that you get a good NCO that'll
01:14:45
look after you um and follow them and if
01:14:49
he's good if he's he or she is good um
01:14:53
you'll be right but if not um you might
01:14:57
have difficulty but uh um I I really
01:14:59
think you're got to follow a dream and
01:15:02
and it it's not going to be like it was
01:15:04
for me um because the life goes on the
01:15:06
world's turned a few times since then um
01:15:09
but you know you'll still get a lot of
01:15:11
enjoyment and you'll get some
01:15:12
camaraderie that you'll get in sell very
01:15:16
few other places I think yeah is it an
01:15:19
occupation where a lot of people get
01:15:20
chewed up and sped out yeah I think so
01:15:23
yeah what did you ever feel like in the
01:15:25
tail no no never no I never did um Until
01:15:29
the End um but um no I didn't um because
01:15:35
you're surrounded by some great people
01:15:38
really if Chu could give parents one tip
01:15:41
to help uh their kids stay safe what
01:15:43
would it
01:15:48
be um Know Your Home Zone um a lot of
01:15:53
people get into trouble when they they
01:15:55
they go you know they may come from
01:15:57
South Orland or wherever and they go
01:15:59
into somewhere else and and it's foreign
01:16:02
to them
01:16:05
um I think you just got to be
01:16:06
particularly careful there um um because
01:16:10
you don't know what you're dealing with
01:16:14
um um how do you keep them safe but the
01:16:18
most important thing in in your life is
01:16:21
um being pointed in the right direction
01:16:22
by a good person and you know if if for
01:16:25
example Joe Thompson had run into
01:16:28
somebody in his life who was good and
01:16:32
had decent morals and could could kind
01:16:35
of focus him he might have turned out
01:16:38
right just just be good and and um give
01:16:42
them a good foundation that and they'll
01:16:45
be
01:16:46
okay
01:16:48
um who's Neil grimste do you know Neil
01:16:51
grimste well spoke to him last night oh
01:16:54
he he sent me an email saying um ask
01:16:56
Chuck about his finest profiling
01:16:59
success that's cuz grimbo was involved
01:17:02
in it yeah no um there was a there was a
01:17:05
bad rape in um a shocking rape in poo
01:17:09
just near the end of I think it might
01:17:11
have been 2006 it was nearing the end of
01:17:13
my time in profiling unit and um we we
01:17:17
had put together lists would been very
01:17:19
successful but we'd never had we' never
01:17:21
had a number one and so grim grimbo got
01:17:25
a hold of me and he he said can you CH
01:17:28
can you can you give me a
01:17:31
um a list of suspects so I did I think
01:17:34
it was hundred and something he says uh
01:17:36
he came back to me he said CH I haven't
01:17:38
got enough staff to deal with 120
01:17:41
suspect can you can you break it down a
01:17:44
bit so I gave him 20 um and and then he
01:17:49
said can you prioritize it I said yeah
01:17:51
okay I prioritized it and then grimo so
01:17:56
proudly kind of points out and um it was
01:17:59
a great great result he gets a ring from
01:18:01
the ESR one day and uh one night and he
01:18:06
given him the name of the
01:18:07
offender and uh because they've been out
01:18:09
and blooded the the suspects you see the
01:18:11
top 20 and uh and he said I'd never
01:18:15
heard of the guy so he goes down to the
01:18:17
station and and and looks at the folder
01:18:20
and there was number one on the list was
01:18:22
this guy the locals in Pugo didn't even
01:18:25
know he was there um and he was caught
01:18:27
by his past just like Jay Thompson was
01:18:30
and that was the Pinnacle for us and see
01:18:32
in the profiling again it we had we
01:18:34
created a criminal suspect list with the
01:18:37
offender at number one um yeah not long
01:18:40
after that I
01:18:43
finished what do you hope your legacy
01:18:45
will be both within the force and in the
01:18:47
broader
01:18:50
Community I'm hoping that I've helped
01:18:54
rap Victor s deal with um the procedures
01:18:58
and and processes that they have to go
01:19:00
through and helped help them get through
01:19:03
court but also help catch catch the bad
01:19:06
buggers
01:19:07
really well there's no doubt you've done
01:19:09
that right some of the worst some of the
01:19:12
baddest some of the worst um yeah
01:19:15
um but they'll keep coming they'll keep
01:19:18
coming and the society we got today
01:19:21
yeah this has been a great chat hook
01:19:24
it's been really
01:19:26
enjoyable right well
01:19:30
yeah real real easy to be honest though
01:19:33
well no it's funny but I wonder how how
01:19:35
much it is from from your perspective
01:19:36
because I've had all sort of people on
01:19:37
the podcast but you know you have um say
01:19:40
s gram Henry here you know recalling
01:19:42
some of the highs and lows of his life
01:19:44
but even the lows of his life they're
01:19:45
very different to you know like what
01:19:47
you've been through and even the highs
01:19:49
in your life they they're still you know
01:19:51
quite Grim memories in a way aren't they
01:19:53
they are but I I don't think that
01:19:55
unusual for for detective if you were I
01:19:58
I could bring you in quite a few
01:19:59
detective sergeants and detectives that
01:20:02
could give you a similar kind of story
01:20:04
really um to some extent you know the
01:20:06
ups and downs anyway you know and how
01:20:08
they survive um you know that girl that
01:20:12
wants to join the police force Police
01:20:13
Department I should say um is um you
01:20:17
know if she hangs in there um she'll
01:20:21
have experiences you know good and bad
01:20:25
but don't dwell on the bad dwell on the
01:20:28
good and dwell on the the people that
01:20:30
you work with you know they're they're
01:20:33
great well that's great hey just before
01:20:35
we end um this show is sponsor sponsored
01:20:38
by the generate kiwi sa scheme love um
01:20:40
challenged me to give $20,000 to charity
01:20:43
by spreading the word about the
01:20:44
importance of kiwi saer advice and
01:20:46
planning for your future so if you
01:20:47
answer these five questions uh generate
01:20:50
will donate 500 bucks to a charity of
01:20:52
your choice what would it be what you
01:20:54
want to name the charity now or do it at
01:20:56
the end you can have a moment to think
01:20:58
about it if you want I
01:21:01
probably um Rape Crisis okay perfect
01:21:06
okay are you a spender or a
01:21:08
saver
01:21:10
spender what's been your biggest money
01:21:16
mistake um getting a
01:21:20
divorce don't even cheap are they
01:21:24
the one though that's probably not bad
01:21:26
for a life lifelong cop yeah one uh who
01:21:30
do you who do you talk to when you have
01:21:32
questions about
01:21:37
money probably my
01:21:40
son that's interesting cuz most people
01:21:42
had on the podcast they uh yeah they
01:21:44
generally say it's a parent they talk to
01:21:46
the whole the whole thing changes right
01:21:49
yeah I mean get so much so much
01:21:52
happening and it's changing in this
01:21:53
world 's no point in going going to the
01:21:56
elders you go to the youngers you know
01:21:58
it's like like getting some grandson in
01:22:00
to kind of check your
01:22:02
computer yeah is this a scam or is this
01:22:04
not a scam
01:22:06
absolutely uh um uh you're already here
01:22:10
but the next question is what's
01:22:11
something fun you can see yourself doing
01:22:12
in
01:22:14
retirement oh just just going down and
01:22:17
have a coffee getting involved with a
01:22:19
community and and you know I want to get
01:22:22
on a rotary and own a band and join the
01:22:26
local Bowling Club just get to know
01:22:28
people a lot of good people out there to
01:22:30
communicate with that's what I want to
01:22:32
do it really seems like you're genuinely
01:22:34
happy like you're really enjoying your
01:22:36
life well Absolut well really what else
01:22:40
is there I mean that point it's kind of
01:22:43
dwelling in the bad in the Dark Places
01:22:46
um I think you got to enjoy life you
01:22:48
never know what's around the corner my
01:22:50
wife my wife my second wife this is um
01:22:52
and I the last the last one too
01:22:55
the last one no more yeah no more um we
01:22:58
made a we made a pack years ago that we
01:23:01
were going to talk about spending money
01:23:03
is to just travel and enjoy ourselves
01:23:06
because you never know what's around the
01:23:07
corner and um then of course um and we
01:23:11
did we've spent 20 years wasting a hell
01:23:14
lot of money just traveling around
01:23:16
Europe and places and and having a good
01:23:18
time and sure enough health problems
01:23:21
come to poal Carolyn and um and now we
01:23:24
can't do anymore so yeah if you could
01:23:27
pick anywhere in New Zealand to retire
01:23:29
where would it be and why Cambridge you
01:23:32
there already what's so good about
01:23:33
Cambridge like it's it it's flat not
01:23:37
like Oakland here where I had to walk
01:23:38
down the hill in Parell and had to climb
01:23:40
a mountain coming up the other side to
01:23:42
get to the the um book launch last night
01:23:46
and um it's flat and it's a beautiful
01:23:48
town a lot of lot of grhe heads like me
01:23:51
and um lovely cafes people will smile at
01:23:55
you walking down the street which I'm
01:23:56
not used to um it's just a great place
01:24:00
yeah and what do you love most about
01:24:01
being a
01:24:02
Ki I'm a fourth generation kiwi what
01:24:05
else would I be you know I I think we're
01:24:08
pretty layback and um and we are we're
01:24:13
no we simple is not the right word but
01:24:15
we're simplistic in our approach to life
01:24:17
you know we don't get too tied up in
01:24:20
crazy kind of ideas and and things I I
01:24:24
think we're pretty pretty lay back
01:24:26
really that's what I like and most
01:24:28
people are good right absolutely yeah
01:24:30
yeah you forget about it because you
01:24:33
this is why I said that said before here
01:24:36
D that I I lived in in the community
01:24:39
that I worked in because if you
01:24:41
didn't all you'd ever deal with is the
01:24:44
bad people and that's that's the view
01:24:45
you'd have was you live there you see
01:24:49
that that's bad people only take up 5%
01:24:51
of the population the rest what about
01:24:52
all the rest of them they're all pretty
01:24:54
good
01:24:54
H hey thanks so much for your your time
01:24:57
today and and also for your service over
01:24:59
the last four decades or whatever it's
01:25:00
been um what a career what a life oh
01:25:03
what are you what are your grandkids and
01:25:04
and great grandkids call you is it POA
01:25:06
Granddad what a yeah papa CH Papa Chu
01:25:09
that's me I love it oh we didn't I
01:25:11
didn't even ask why why the is is is the
01:25:13
name Chuck to do with um hen yeah yeah
01:25:16
right right I got it a trenum right a
01:25:19
that's followed you around for life no
01:25:21
one no one calls you Dave hey no there
01:25:23
was one of the guys at was at the launch
01:25:25
last night who I work with a lot um at
01:25:28
my retirement when they said my name was
01:25:30
David he said I never knew your first
01:25:32
name been working with him for
01:25:36
years well that's great hey
01:25:37
congratulations on the book and masking
01:25:39
monsters and thank you so much for
01:25:41
coming on the podcast today I really
01:25:42
appreciate it okay D pleasure