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Nigel ler welcome to my podcast thank
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you D it's great to be here I the it is
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um such an honor for me I was saying to
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you just a couple of seconds ago like
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you're a white whale guest for me this
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is like a dream guest and even more so I
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think given the the current
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circumstances well I it's it's a good
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day out for me CU my days now mostly
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staying at home so actually getting to
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come out and do stuff is kind of cool uh
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and uh I've you know I've watched a few
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of your podcasts and stuff and so it's
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yeah it's cool it's cool cool being here
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it still seems odd to me that anybody
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would want to cheat to me about stuff
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that I've done because I just think well
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I just did stuff you know so this is no
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but you've done um like you've done so I
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I put on Instagram that you were coming
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in and did anyone have any questions and
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um to be honest like 80% of it was just
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like well washers and just people saying
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people been people are super nice do you
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know what I mean it's like every time
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you um I've always had I should stop
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away from the microphone shouldn't I
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always been really confident in the
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fundamental kind of goodness of people
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because they just are and so people have
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been lovely like I've had some lovely
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messages of uh support and stuff like
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that the bet that son very funny the
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antix people I I found a thread just cuz
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I'm bored I found a thread on Reddit
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where they were
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debating is it him getting his Just
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Desserts now that he's got turbo cancer
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have you heard about turbo cancer no
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comes from the vaccine is he getting his
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just deserts now because he was one of
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the people advocating for vaccines and
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some people were saying yeah tot it's
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totally fair you should well it's a
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little bit harsh it's like so that's I
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find that hilarious apparently I've got
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the turbo cancer turbo cancer well that
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sounds really dramatic quite cool caner
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hey so um we're recording this a few
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days um before your your next birthday
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you've got a birthday next week no no no
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Wikipedia no no don't believe anything
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really July oh really yeah oh well I
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[ __ ] that one up completely yeah I'll
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take it I have a business well and light
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well I thought it was your birthday next
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week but I suppose when you had your
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last birthday in July like you you um
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were aware of the cancer then um but it
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was only fly recently so it's only been
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four months that I've been on this
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particular Road right uh so yeah the
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early part of the year was just Trucking
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along you know working working working
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tracking along and then you get to a m
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morning and it all just
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changes so it's only been four months so
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so 4 months ago you got told you've got
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between 6 months and a year to live yeah
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yeah and that was that was
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um that was that was a with I had the
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thing with the the um in the GI person
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the gastro person uh and so this was the
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meeting with the surgeon the next day
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and to be fair he was this lovely man
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like he was a really lovely man and cuz
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he said you've got it's it's uncurable
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like it's inoperable we can't take it
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out and so you know you you want to know
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that number so we just said look just
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tell us a number and um he went like I
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really don't like doing that cuz had to
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put a number on stuff and and my partner
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my wife is's also psychologist look
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we're psychiatrist we can handle it just
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just just give us a number and then he
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said there 6 to 12 months and it's like
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I remember start being punched in the
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brain I remember thinking could you give
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me another number like if you got any
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other ones negotiable that's your first
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offer let's let's push out but since
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then it's all changed since then because
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of now um you enter oncology and that's
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a just this winding path of lots of
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options so actually it's been going uh
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pretty well like on four months into
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chemo I've had a number of Lucky breaks
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like I'm I've got the right I've got a
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really good Guma type it's fast growing
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which is good because when it divides
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that's when it can kind of get got at uh
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I can take hpon which is um a targeted
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therapy uh and I can also do
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immunotherapy which so the combination
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of kind of chemo and these two sorts of
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uh other drugs are really good for me so
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now it's very optimistic now I'm looking
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forward to being here for a long time so
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you're living not dying yeah like I just
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don't like for the first few days it
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felt like I was dying you know cuz it
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was just shock and Trauma and all of the
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rest of that stuff and I remember the
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day that we got told that um like I
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remember going we left the place we were
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standing outside and I just like I
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literally had no idea what to do in that
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moment I thought I don't know what to do
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or where to go and so fortunately a
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friend was there uh and I just thought
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okay make a freaking decision I thought
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we can't go home I don't know why we
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just couldn't uh and so we went to her
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place and then um we yeah we went there
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and started calling people it very very
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grim and uh why couldn't you go home I
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just in my head it was like no can't do
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that yet like cuz the the kids were at
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home and I thought I like I need to get
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my [ __ ] together like we can't we can't
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be walking into the in the middle of
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this like that's so so it was just let's
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avoid that for but so that night we went
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to a hotel and just I ate lots of ice
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cream and cried and then from the next
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day it got better cuz from the next day
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we started to see the oncologist and um
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who's my new favorite guy like this
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really smart guy um
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and and then options start opening up
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and things start improving so it went
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from the bleakest of The Bleak to
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actually now it's going forward and it's
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been good learning because you spend
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your whole I spent people a long time
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telling people how to be resilient it's
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like okay so let's practice some of
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those things now yeah I um I watched a a
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Ted Talk on YouTube that you did um and
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one of the key messages in there was um
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it could always be worse yeah yeah it
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can and how how for you well the 6 to 12
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months could be true that gives me till
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November you know I IM if you ask how
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long have I got he me about I'd say 25
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30 minutes
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like um no like it can always be worse
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and so I I do I think that um one of the
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things I've kind of always believed is
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that basically life is just a big bus
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and you're either going to be a
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passenger or you're going to drive the
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bus and so you have to you have to drive
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the bus you have to kind of Take Charge
00:06:29
of the things that have happened to you
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um and so so kind of part of my thinking
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in those initial days was just like your
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job now is to make it easier on the
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people around you like that's that's
00:06:39
something I can do and that there's a
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lot of things I can't control but I can
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control how I am and how I am with the
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people around me and that that's uh it's
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it's a really simple idea but it's
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pretty powerful easy see than done that
00:06:53
way because you know you tend to save
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your your worst behavior for the people
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that you love the most and you'd have
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every right to be like a you know a
00:07:00
[ __ ] pain in the ass at that
00:07:02
particular Point well and it's not to
00:07:04
say that I don't get kind of mopy and
00:07:05
feel a bit sorry for myself during some
00:07:06
of the days of um the chemo stuff but I
00:07:09
just work really it's like wallowing
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is it's like the world of the moments in
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this weird space where
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you're
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everything kind of this a toxic
00:07:23
masculinity right and and toughing it
00:07:26
out is bad and but but actually
00:07:29
sometimes tough it out and just
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hardening the [ __ ] up is the most
00:07:32
important thing to do and it's like I if
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I really care about the people around me
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I can try to make their lives easier and
00:07:40
when I do that when I do this act of
00:07:41
generosity towards other people it makes
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me feel better whenever I whenever I
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behave like an [ __ ] or I do something
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that's selfish or I do something that's
00:07:49
un kind it doesn't even in the moment
00:07:52
when you feel Justified and doing it
00:07:54
it's never made me feel good the stuff
00:07:55
that makes me feel good is when you're
00:07:57
being generous and helping the people
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around and so really early on I just
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decided that I'm just going to do
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everything I can to make it easier for
00:08:05
the people around me rather than harder
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and it's just it just works it does make
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life easier it's it's yeah it's common
00:08:12
sense if I ever um you see the red M and
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lose my call at a stranger or someone I
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know I feel bad about it for hours
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afterwards like it just doesn't it
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doesn't make you feel good and even
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sometimes you feel really justified in
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doing it cuz the other person wants
00:08:27
being a complete dick but but it's just
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never worked and the only thing it's
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ever worked for me is stepping back from
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that thinking okay what's something kind
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I can do for this person who's being an
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[ __ ] right now cuz no one like no
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one's born an [ __ ] well there's
00:08:43
that's not I think there are a small
00:08:44
percentage of people who they literally
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are everyone else is just a bit Tangled
00:08:48
Up and most people are doing things cuz
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they're even the antix people that are
00:08:53
debating whether or not I deserve turber
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cancer those guys
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like they're still that's coming from a
00:09:01
place of they really they think this
00:09:03
harmful thing was done to the world and
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so they're trying to speak out against
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it like I understand why they're doing
00:09:07
it I just some of I just find a bit
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hilarious so yeah I think the world's
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everyone's supposed to feel good about
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everything all the time and you're never
00:09:19
supposed to just tough it out well
00:09:21
actually sometimes that's the best thing
00:09:23
to do like what else you going to do
00:09:25
fall on the ground and and kind of
00:09:27
whimper and that's I've done a little
00:09:28
I've done that too but you can't do that
00:09:30
all the time you have to stand up and
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and push
00:09:35
on and you you definitely are so are you
00:09:38
said yeah so the the day you found out
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you spend the night in the hotel eating
00:09:41
the ice cream um ice because the kids
00:09:44
are at home you've got two kids two sons
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in their 20s so so I've got a I've got
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five in total uh there's a girl and a
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boy and then a girl sorry a boy and a
00:09:55
girl and a boy so it like a blended
00:09:58
situation yeah Blended situ so the the
00:10:00
two oldest are mine and then um and then
00:10:03
Natalie and I we sort of co-parent the
00:10:06
her her her three kids as well what are
00:10:08
their ages are they a little younger uh
00:10:10
but you so they kind of 18 uh 18 and 17
00:10:14
and uh 14 so we've got a great lumbering
00:10:17
14y old in the house so are you
00:10:20
rereading your books you know well it
00:10:23
helps having been there right it's like
00:10:25
and I understand boys and boys boys are
00:10:27
the best thing about boys is you say how
00:10:29
how was your day and they go good and
00:10:31
that's it we're all done like that's the
00:10:33
day wrapped up um whereas girls they
00:10:36
talk a lot more about stuff and so when
00:10:38
you ask them how the day is you got to
00:10:40
have a chair and like just a drink of
00:10:42
water clear the clear the afternoon so
00:10:46
so did you guys um I mean they're all
00:10:48
ages where you can sort of I suppose
00:10:50
have adult conversations with them but
00:10:51
did you is that what you did in the
00:10:53
hotel you discussed how you were going
00:10:54
to message it the next day or no we kind
00:10:56
of didn't do it in the morning mostly we
00:10:57
just sat in the hotel and cried and I I
00:10:59
and um the one thing I do regret one of
00:11:02
the newspaper articles that came out
00:11:04
after I put my little video out said
00:11:05
that I went to a hotel and ice cream and
00:11:07
cried when I first like no no there was
00:11:09
someone else with me like I seems
00:11:12
slightly less pathetic I know it seems a
00:11:13
slightly pathetic thing what did you do
00:11:15
I went to a hotel by myself chick just
00:11:16
sat there crying in the middle of the
00:11:18
room eating ice cream um if I read that
00:11:20
I'd be like he was definitely watching
00:11:21
the hotel
00:11:22
Point ice creams a distraction I know so
00:11:27
so no we we kind of the next morning we
00:11:30
kind of got our heads around the fact
00:11:31
that
00:11:32
um how we were going to talk to the kids
00:11:35
about all this stuff and it does help
00:11:36
that we buy shrinks so it's like you do
00:11:40
have some things to fall back and it's
00:11:41
also irritating because you do have to
00:11:42
practice the things you've been
00:11:43
preaching and sometimes those things are
00:11:45
quite hard to practice Yeah so um
00:11:47
September 5 5:32 p.m. that's when the
00:11:50
video went live um yeah yeah why did you
00:11:54
decide to do that now it's kind of the
00:11:56
drive the bus then so you see me I
00:11:58
Remember You See Me a while ago but
00:11:59
coming on the podcast and at that point
00:12:01
I was thinking I'm going to do this but
00:12:03
I'm going to do this it wasn't the right
00:12:05
time then basically a couple of
00:12:07
journalists have been calling um asking
00:12:10
to write something about it and I
00:12:12
thought yeah I kind of want
00:12:14
to that I want to be in control of the
00:12:16
message and do it in the way that I want
00:12:18
it I don't want to be talking to a print
00:12:19
journalist and have to worry about how
00:12:21
they write it and how it sounds so and
00:12:24
that's a great thing about social media
00:12:26
now you can just make a little video
00:12:27
control the narrative yeah and say
00:12:29
people hey so this is a thing and then
00:12:31
uh but people have been super nice like
00:12:34
it's I wish everybody I wish everyone
00:12:36
that got cancer could have all these
00:12:38
people saying these super nice things to
00:12:40
them because people are just really you
00:12:42
know just people just lovely people are
00:12:44
nice um yeah I mean the there's
00:12:46
thousands of comments including I saw
00:12:47
one from um Sonia Yelich who's Lord's
00:12:50
mom um saying you helped raise her kids
00:12:52
you know what I'm which is awesome I'm
00:12:54
I've been talking to lawyers I need a
00:12:56
cut of the Lord thing I play a rooll
00:12:58
there
00:13:00
I thought that was so awesome it's like
00:13:01
man I in some small maybe a large way I
00:13:05
contributed to Lord's yeah now I mean
00:13:09
this this validation it's only um I mean
00:13:11
it's strangers on the internet um but it
00:13:13
still must be incredibly humbling it
00:13:15
says a lot about the impact you've had
00:13:16
on society over the last 30 odd years
00:13:19
yeah no it's it is really nice and and
00:13:21
particularly particularly over the last
00:13:23
little bit it it um it does it does feel
00:13:27
really nice when people say that I B at
00:13:29
there's always this thing in there that
00:13:31
like everything I've done has been a
00:13:32
part of teams and so if you're the
00:13:35
presenter on tally they think it's your
00:13:36
TV show and it's like you know there's a
00:13:38
whole bunch of us made that stuff so
00:13:40
it's like it's always that I always feel
00:13:42
it saying that's really I'll let the
00:13:45
other people know who are part of making
00:13:46
this stuff as well CU it's like
00:13:48
everything I've done has been part of a
00:13:49
team it's like it's everything is
00:13:51
everything's a collaborative process
00:13:53
yeah and um there's a book that you've
00:13:56
recommended called life hacks from the
00:13:57
border yeah um yeah that was the post
00:14:01
you did after the the video post
00:14:02
announcing that you had cancer yeah so
00:14:04
Tony Tony Fernando who's a psychiatrist
00:14:06
wrote the book it's a really good book
00:14:08
um and uh it's I kind of expected it to
00:14:11
be sort of the usual self-helping stuff
00:14:13
but Tony as well as being a psychiatrist
00:14:16
and a really good psychiatrist he's also
00:14:17
a Buddhist monk and so it's kind of he
00:14:20
takes Buddhism and talks about how you
00:14:23
can apply that to your life now and you
00:14:25
don't to think about Buddhism as a
00:14:27
religion and in fact that Buddha even
00:14:29
really took a position on that people
00:14:30
would say to him so what's what happens
00:14:32
after you die and he went look don't
00:14:33
worry about that just focus on now um so
00:14:35
you don't it's not it's not really a
00:14:37
religious thing it's more just a it's a
00:14:38
it's a philosophy and a series of kind
00:14:41
of ideas about how to be that make you
00:14:46
kind of suffer less and make it easier
00:14:47
to feel um to feel kind of happier and
00:14:51
content in life so I've always been a
00:14:52
sort of a closet Buddhist you know like
00:14:54
I'm a bit Buddhist not all the way like
00:14:57
tny in the book he talks about her bdd
00:14:59
monks will if there's ants they'll scoot
00:15:01
them all up and take them outside I had
00:15:03
a bunch of ants on the bench yesterday I
00:15:04
just fly
00:15:06
straight you guys just know
00:15:11
so I don't do the whole thing and and
00:15:14
sometimes it's we're talking about this
00:15:15
the other day my my my my son said that
00:15:18
sometimes um he was talking about a
00:15:20
project he had to do in class and he
00:15:22
didn't like the lecturer and so he kind
00:15:24
of he wanted to succeed out of spite to
00:15:27
spite this guy and sometimes sp's a good
00:15:30
little motivator you know like it's not
00:15:32
the healthiest I guess in some ways but
00:15:34
it's like it's uh it I've done some
00:15:36
things just the thing that motivates me
00:15:38
is out a Spite and it's like it's not a
00:15:40
very Buddhist thing to do but it works
00:15:43
yeah yeah use your haters as your
00:15:44
motivators there's something to it yeah
00:15:46
absolutely right um that's Proby enough
00:15:48
about the the cancer for now we'll get
00:15:50
back to that later but there's so much
00:15:51
um of the [ __ ] letter story imp pack so
00:15:53
um born in aadu
00:15:55
1967 um I I heard you say maybe on
00:15:59
another podcast um you described today
00:16:00
as quite an interesting place to grow up
00:16:02
what it was a [ __ ] place to grow up was
00:16:04
it why I'm always cool now but it was a
00:16:07
[ __ ] place to grow up because it was
00:16:08
like I I was kind of growing up in the
00:16:10
sort of late 70s and 80s so as a
00:16:12
teenager in the 80s I went to this um
00:16:15
Whi boys which is like all boy schools
00:16:18
in the 80s was a toxic and shitty place
00:16:21
um didn't wasn't interested in sports at
00:16:24
all um and at at at w Boys in 19 880s if
00:16:29
you got a Blazer which is some you know
00:16:32
a prize from the school for um for rugby
00:16:35
or Cricket or something you way if you
00:16:38
got one an academic Blazer people beat
00:16:40
you up because they thought you were gay
00:16:41
like that was of that was our 1980 in
00:16:44
omo the way that we thought you could
00:16:46
tell us someone was G is if they're
00:16:47
smart they definitely G
00:16:49
which you think it's like so what H
00:16:53
people stupid like that was the thing so
00:16:55
I I yeah I hated what te BS when I went
00:16:58
there um and I just couldn't wait to get
00:17:01
out of omaro now it's cool like now I'm
00:17:04
you should go and visit omaro now it's
00:17:06
really cool they've got the steampunk
00:17:07
stuff going on there penguins and nice
00:17:09
little cafes and things but yeah back in
00:17:11
the 80s I didn't like it at all that
00:17:14
sounds similar to um to my school
00:17:17
experience I went to Pal boy high like
00:17:20
um mid 80s to 9090 um got called a [ __ ]
00:17:24
every day yeah it was just and it wasn't
00:17:26
any it wasn't any particular school that
00:17:28
was just what happened and no one
00:17:30
intervened and you know we would
00:17:32
practice haers for the these first 15
00:17:35
matches and the prefect would scream and
00:17:37
yell at you and the weird thing is I
00:17:39
remember them like in my memory there
00:17:41
were these [ __ ] huge Hulen gorillas
00:17:43
screaming at us and I found an old
00:17:45
school magazine and looked back and they
00:17:47
were just skinny little teenage boys at
00:17:49
the time if they're older than you I
00:17:50
suppose they have a size Advantage
00:17:52
there's nothing more more gratifying
00:17:54
than being like for me at least being 18
00:17:56
192 going out and seeing the from the
00:17:59
first 15 as adults now still wearing you
00:18:03
still wearing their rugby shirt or
00:18:04
living on other Glory Days of their life
00:18:06
I know I know I always kind of think
00:18:08
like if you're if you're if High
00:18:10
School's amazing that's not a good sign
00:18:12
if you don't want to peek at high school
00:18:13
yeah yeah so what what were you like as
00:18:15
what was like as a cat I read you bought
00:18:17
yourself a typewriter at the age of 13
00:18:18
so you you must have had a like a
00:18:20
creative creative side yeah like I
00:18:21
wanted to write books that was the the
00:18:24
life plan for me was writing novels
00:18:25
that's what I wanted to do at that point
00:18:27
um and um so yeah I was just like a I
00:18:31
was always kind of I I like I was the
00:18:35
only s former not made a prefect at the
00:18:37
school like they were 30 six were
00:18:39
becoming prefects and that was a smart
00:18:41
move like cuz I would have been a
00:18:42
disaster because um I was just all anti-
00:18:45
establish I remember the um the governor
00:18:47
general came to a school prize giving to
00:18:50
give and I won a prize for English and
00:18:52
so I went to the a Bookshop and got um
00:18:54
KY Marx the first 100 years because I
00:18:57
know my sort of boy oh that'll put the W
00:19:00
up the governor general all this Max and
00:19:02
stuff um he just gave it to me and shook
00:19:05
my head I've still got it never read it
00:19:06
it a stupid F I should have got why um
00:19:09
yeah were you were you just like an
00:19:11
angry angsty teen or what that I
00:19:15
just it's like I just didn't I didn't
00:19:18
like bollocks and I just thought this is
00:19:20
all bollocks like I I got a detention
00:19:21
once cuz I wasn't seen God Sav the queen
00:19:24
and the sebl I was such a snot and I
00:19:27
remember Mr Kissle who was a lovely man
00:19:29
he said what's the why won't you sing we
00:19:31
not singing God Save the Queen L and I
00:19:33
went well no cuz like she lives in a
00:19:34
palace and she's got like s stuff we
00:19:36
should sing God God Save The Starving
00:19:39
little African kids I didn't care about
00:19:40
the starving little African kids I was
00:19:42
just being a
00:19:43
dick so why why were you being set to
00:19:46
fire um it just I don't know it just
00:19:48
seemed like much more interesting to me
00:19:50
than um oh that's my little beeper to
00:19:51
tell me to take stuff but I've already
00:19:52
taken that s dis must um I I just kind
00:19:56
of like the idea of poking a stick into
00:19:58
all that stuff not taking it too
00:19:59
seriously just questioning Authority
00:20:01
yeah I just thought well why why am I
00:20:02
singing God Save the Queen cuz I don't
00:20:04
me her I'm sure she's fine but she seems
00:20:06
okay like I don't think she needs us to
00:20:07
sing what what was what was that beeper
00:20:09
what do you need to take ah see now I'm
00:20:11
such my life is so different that uh I
00:20:14
have to have an app to tell me which
00:20:15
pills to take when because my day is a
00:20:17
series of a series of pills I take um
00:20:21
you know so there's the chemo drugs and
00:20:22
there's nauseous stuff on this heart
00:20:24
stuff because also a scout I've got a
00:20:25
Dicky hat it's like come on cuz I start
00:20:29
looking at everything um so I've I take
00:20:32
heart stuff now I'm a yeah I every every
00:20:36
3 hours 4 hours yeah do you mean it's
00:20:38
about every every every 3 hours there's
00:20:39
a big there's a big pile in the morning
00:20:41
first thing and then there's another lot
00:20:42
about 10:00 and then there's be another
00:20:44
lot sort of 11:30 12 and then that's
00:20:46
more at 3 and then more and it's mostly
00:20:49
just about keeping the nausea under
00:20:50
control because chemo gives you nausea
00:20:51
because it's basically chemo is taking a
00:20:54
blunt like it's a cheese grer to all the
00:20:57
fast dividing cells in your body so you
00:20:58
keep get all these weird symptoms but
00:21:00
again I'm lucky cuz I don't get as many
00:21:03
symptoms as a lot of other people and I
00:21:04
don't hit them as extreme so it's
00:21:07
fine you're so positive about things
00:21:10
well I mean I suppose it's a choice
00:21:11
isn't it I suppose you you have to be
00:21:13
but it' be I mean it' be understandable
00:21:15
and easy to have a bit of self-pity yeah
00:21:17
and I do have that like there are there
00:21:18
are definitely times like there are days
00:21:20
when um you I've got like the moment
00:21:22
about another 11 weeks of chemo to go
00:21:25
and there are days when you just lie
00:21:26
there and just go oh man this
00:21:29
um
00:21:31
but yeah I just kind of I always think
00:21:34
um it'll be fine and if it's if it's not
00:21:37
deal with it when you get there and so
00:21:40
how I kind of reframe all the symptom
00:21:42
stuff is like it's good it's interesting
00:21:45
I a special forces guy I watched a video
00:21:48
years ago about the special forces guy
00:21:50
saying you know if you want to improve
00:21:51
your resilience you just it's just you
00:21:52
can do that with one word whatever
00:21:54
happens you just say good so you're
00:21:56
feeling sick good that means it's
00:21:58
working you know you're feeling really
00:22:00
ground down and done good that means
00:22:02
it's really working it doesn't work all
00:22:04
the time but I try and practice that a
00:22:06
lot cuz it's just better easier sh this
00:22:10
I mean we've only been going 20 minutes
00:22:11
there's already been so many good
00:22:12
takeaways you just dispense it you you
00:22:14
disp advice without even knowing it well
00:22:18
the thing
00:22:18
is unlike look where I've been lucky is
00:22:21
that I've got to SP basically my entire
00:22:23
life reading about stuff that helps
00:22:27
people being kind of KNE deep and
00:22:29
helping people for 20 something years
00:22:31
doing all these teley shows where you go
00:22:32
out and you've got researchers that find
00:22:35
super interesting people for you to talk
00:22:36
to and so really all I've need to do is
00:22:40
just be awake and pay attention to stuff
00:22:41
that's happening around me you just pick
00:22:43
up these kind of useful things and most
00:22:45
of the good stuff people thought
00:22:47
Generations ago like thousands of years
00:22:49
ago all the good thinking has been done
00:22:51
there's no new thinking there's just um
00:22:53
there's just the old stuff
00:22:55
repackaged yeah so um so after after the
00:22:59
y te experience um you go to university
00:23:01
um get a zoology and Marine Science
00:23:04
degree yeah why well so University I I
00:23:07
went I went to University when it was
00:23:08
free I think we paid $300 in student
00:23:11
fees and we butched about that like why
00:23:13
am I paying $300 I um and so I ranged
00:23:18
through a whole bunch of careers at
00:23:19
University and uh I originally uh
00:23:22
thought I was going to be a philosopher
00:23:24
because that was the least omaro thing I
00:23:26
thought you could study uh but then I
00:23:28
went to a philosophy lecture and they
00:23:30
said should you eat the bread of the
00:23:31
plate and I me this is just stupid like
00:23:33
I know the answer to that I find that
00:23:35
only later I discovered that actually
00:23:36
philosophy is super interesting um but I
00:23:39
and I I I I I was going to do
00:23:46
um the only science subject you could do
00:23:48
at stage two without chemistry was um I
00:23:51
think zoology at that point and geology
00:23:53
and some of those things and basically I
00:23:55
had cheated through my entire six4 and
00:23:58
copied Don Clark's assignments in
00:24:00
chemistry and got accredited in
00:24:01
chemistry I understood nothing about it
00:24:03
at all still don't to this day chemistry
00:24:05
is a complete mystery to me so I wanted
00:24:06
to ditch that um and I'd watch ja who
00:24:09
was a kid um and uh I thought I'll be a
00:24:12
marine biologist sounds pretty awesome
00:24:14
so so yeah I peeled off and did zoology
00:24:17
uh and then um with this idea of doing
00:24:21
Marine Science after that I wanted to go
00:24:22
to the antartic to do a research project
00:24:25
but because I was such an idiot I left
00:24:26
it way too late so by the time I talked
00:24:28
to them was already too late um so yes I
00:24:31
did zoo of Marine Science I got within
00:24:32
two weeks of joining the police back
00:24:34
then cuz that was uh something I was
00:24:35
kind of super interested in doing and
00:24:37
then um changed Tac and came up to
00:24:39
ockland and psychology up here when was
00:24:42
the music career was that in between
00:24:43
those two the G Thornton Steam and you
00:24:46
yeah we we were a thing what was what
00:24:47
was there well were you ukulele player
00:24:49
no I play ukulele in the B of harmonica
00:24:52
uh and um kazoo and stuff like that we
00:24:57
we had we knew this guy's chew who
00:24:58
actually really was talented and he
00:25:00
played in proper bands um and we just s
00:25:02
be fun to go busing we thought we could
00:25:03
raise some money for beer basically um
00:25:06
and so we we set this little skiffle
00:25:08
band up with a teachers base and
00:25:09
ukuladies and washboards and all that
00:25:11
kind of stuff um and we went away for a
00:25:14
weekend to twizel and I think our first
00:25:18
gig in the twis mall we got drunk first
00:25:21
that was a bad idea cuz we couldn't do
00:25:23
anything so we made 20 cents the next
00:25:25
day we thought okay let's do it not
00:25:27
being drunk and see how that go goes and
00:25:28
we made enough I think to buy two and a
00:25:31
half jugs of beer or something so we
00:25:32
thought oh this is quite good so we just
00:25:34
did that for a fun thing for the year
00:25:36
and um yeah that was my that was my
00:25:37
musical career in Kevin Thornton's so
00:25:40
what how old were you when you went back
00:25:41
to back to study and to do psychology
00:25:44
God that must have been must be having
00:25:46
never been to University myself like you
00:25:48
you do these years you get a degree does
00:25:50
it feel like a waste of time no cuz cuz
00:25:53
even the zoology and Marine science
00:25:54
stuff like at the time I thought oh I
00:25:56
did all that stuff and I'll never use it
00:25:57
and then I had and it's like I could go
00:25:59
to the beach and say wise things about
00:26:01
the various little creatures coming
00:26:03
about in the in the in the in the water
00:26:05
and stuff um no but it it was very
00:26:07
different back then because it was free
00:26:09
and so this is where kids now have it so
00:26:12
much hter like they have to every year
00:26:14
cost them a fortune and so they have to
00:26:16
really think about what's the subject
00:26:19
and doing and I don't know how you can
00:26:20
know that before you do it like I
00:26:22
chopped and changed all over the place
00:26:24
and then you know then we decided that
00:26:26
uh all the people that got free
00:26:27
education to decided that it simply
00:26:29
wasn't right for people to get free
00:26:30
education so they bought them fees and
00:26:32
now kids come up with these massive
00:26:33
debts and end up doing courses they
00:26:35
don't like and a whole bunch of things
00:26:37
but what was the motivation for
00:26:38
psychology what was the Catalyst to go
00:26:40
back and study that um I quite liked I I
00:26:43
I like the idea of working with people
00:26:45
and I've always been sort
00:26:47
of my sort of approach to things is that
00:26:49
you know that whole thing about this two
00:26:51
paths diverged in the wood like if if I
00:26:55
came to a wood and there was two paths
00:26:57
and there was a dude there and the dude
00:26:58
said look definitely go this way it's
00:27:01
flat it's paved there's good lighting
00:27:03
there's a little cafe up there um and
00:27:05
comfy seats don't go down there there's
00:27:08
some [ __ ] up [ __ ] down there I would
00:27:10
totally that I'm going that way straight
00:27:12
away like I just thought the world's an
00:27:15
interesting place and I wanted to kind
00:27:17
of see more of that and I was interested
00:27:21
in like why people do bad things um and
00:27:24
what are people who do bad things like
00:27:26
and so the psychology stuff um yeah that
00:27:29
sort of that interested me um so yeah I
00:27:32
just kind of did it cuz I thought oh
00:27:34
that I'm I'm going to learn some
00:27:35
interesting things if I if I do that
00:27:37
which which I did yeah yeah you did um
00:27:40
we'll get into the TV stuff but beyond
00:27:41
the darkland one of my one of my
00:27:42
favorite TV shows of the last 20 years
00:27:44
never missed an episode fascinating and
00:27:47
the weird thing is I had more
00:27:48
information about the guys that we
00:27:50
profiled on that show than I did um any
00:27:53
psychology report that we ever wrote
00:27:55
because we would have producers who
00:27:56
would spend six or eight months going
00:27:58
around and Gathering all this
00:28:00
information up about people and so it
00:28:02
was the scuffing sound is the we
00:28:05
dog Kanye trying to dig a hole in the
00:28:08
caret digging a hole he doesn't realize
00:28:09
we're in an apartment and this is going
00:28:10
to make life super difficult um yeah so
00:28:15
so so yeah beyond the dark P was a and
00:28:17
it's interesting like I when we when we
00:28:20
started to like when Philly is from
00:28:22
Springtime first kind of met with me
00:28:24
about the
00:28:25
show I sort of had some conditions I
00:28:28
kind of see well we're not going to make
00:28:30
an episode about about any of these
00:28:33
offenders unless we've got the victim's
00:28:35
families permission to do it like we go
00:28:37
to them directly and ask them um and
00:28:39
we're not going to do any Recreations
00:28:40
and we're not going to have blood and
00:28:41
stuff like that and Philly's you know a
00:28:44
marvelous and ethical person and was
00:28:45
totally on board with that so we're kind
00:28:47
of stuck to that like we would always
00:28:49
get the permission of victim's families
00:28:51
before we made an episode and so there
00:28:53
was something we just didn't do like mik
00:28:55
Lundy was going to be the first season
00:28:56
but his family had burned by the media
00:28:59
and wer interested and so I think in
00:29:01
season 4 we kind of went back to them
00:29:03
and said okay so now you see what we do
00:29:05
and for me I was making those things for
00:29:07
the parole board of a lot of these guys
00:29:09
so they would have that information in
00:29:10
front of them uh and and so second time
00:29:13
around they were okay with us doing it
00:29:15
because they kind of knew how we did
00:29:17
things I mean it's people's families and
00:29:19
stuff and so it's not just entertainment
00:29:21
and another of my conditions was we're
00:29:23
never going to sell it as a DVD set in
00:29:24
work course like it won't be for sale
00:29:26
because that's just
00:29:28
orens crass it's like if my kid had been
00:29:31
murdered and then it's this thing gets
00:29:33
made and they're selling it we're Co you
00:29:36
know it's just that just seemed wrong so
00:29:38
um yeah to to Philly Philly's great um
00:29:42
and just all that stuff was fine yeah do
00:29:44
do you still follow Bleak stuff now like
00:29:46
at the time we're recording this the
00:29:48
jury's out on the uh ping horn trial do
00:29:51
yeah you follow that oh yeah yeah we we
00:29:53
we we follow that um um so nalie my
00:29:57
partner she's that also she's done a lot
00:29:59
of adult mental health stuff and has
00:30:00
worked and um did did some time in
00:30:03
Broadmore in the UK as well where you
00:30:05
know she talked to people who cut
00:30:07
people's heads off and bury them in the
00:30:08
backyard and stuff um some of that S car
00:30:11
on and so yeah now we follow po stuff
00:30:13
because it's just it's interesting I
00:30:15
don't follow the new I try not to follow
00:30:16
the news generally because it's just
00:30:17
generally depressing and irritating but
00:30:19
some of that
00:30:21
stuff pretty interesting is there part
00:30:24
of you that there you know think [ __ ]
00:30:26
I'd love to do a show about this or
00:30:27
document about this no because like I'm
00:30:29
really glad the dark L is done because
00:30:31
it was just because you're making it
00:30:34
about individual people and individual
00:30:37
families there's always that kind of
00:30:40
pressure there that you you don't want
00:30:42
to make something that's going to make
00:30:44
people feel kind of exploited all that
00:30:46
um kind of isn't okay so I was glad to
00:30:49
go back from I'm I'm glad we did that
00:30:52
stuff I think we did some good stuff in
00:30:53
there but it was good that it ended when
00:30:55
it did yeah so so in your early years as
00:30:57
a a psychologist who like who who were
00:30:59
your clients so my um I most I did a lot
00:31:03
of child and family stuff for most of my
00:31:06
career really um and that was because
00:31:10
again like I sort of I thought rather
00:31:13
than let someone choose you had to get
00:31:16
placements and internships rather than
00:31:18
let someone choose that for me I'm going
00:31:19
to go and find my own um and so I very
00:31:23
cynically joined victim support before I
00:31:25
applied for the diploma so I had some
00:31:26
stuff under my belt um as part of that a
00:31:30
guy came along um from a stopping
00:31:32
violence program and talked about this
00:31:33
10 we program and so when I got into the
00:31:36
diploma and I was looking for a master's
00:31:38
project I went to see him but he was on
00:31:40
the phone and the guy that ran the seend
00:31:43
the treatment program wasn't and we
00:31:44
started chatting and even though this
00:31:47
one was 10 weeks this one was like 2
00:31:49
years long um I it just sounded far more
00:31:52
interesting and so I immediately kind of
00:31:54
peeled off into that and then through
00:31:57
that made a lot of really other people
00:31:58
and ended up um working in the child and
00:32:01
family area because it's just
00:32:03
interesting and um teenagers are great
00:32:07
like if adults are super polite but
00:32:09
teenagers tell you go [ __ ] yourself like
00:32:11
you'll walk
00:32:12
in I once walked into this girl I once
00:32:15
walked into I was to assist this girl
00:32:17
she was like 11 and she' 12 or something
00:32:20
and she' tried to take like an old lady
00:32:21
and her car so she wanted the set of
00:32:24
those two things and I walked into the
00:32:25
room and she looked at me and she said
00:32:27
[ __ ] man I'm not [ __ ] talking to you
00:32:29
you're the [ __ ] ugliest man in the
00:32:31
whole [ __ ]
00:32:34
world and I like to straight away like I
00:32:37
thought you are like a great deal and
00:32:40
then so I just said to her you know
00:32:41
what's interesting I used to be a
00:32:43
stunningly handsome man but it wasn't
00:32:45
working so went to a made him M he's a
00:32:47
plastic surgeon I said can you [ __ ] me
00:32:48
up just a little but what she did and
00:32:50
she laughed which made her really
00:32:52
annoyed and then we just ad that for the
00:32:53
rest of time and I like I like kids like
00:32:55
that like I like working with kind of
00:32:57
families and kids where they're just
00:32:58
super upfront and the tell stuff and
00:33:00
also there's just such a ton of Hopey
00:33:02
because you know they're just
00:33:04
kids were you were you um were you
00:33:06
polarizing like did did some of your
00:33:08
peers sort of frown upon you like um
00:33:10
yeah I think cuz you're quite unorthodox
00:33:12
he yeah yeah and I've I've had
00:33:15
a tenous relationship with my
00:33:18
professional body um cuz I think like I
00:33:21
think there's lots of really great
00:33:22
psychologist doing amazing stuff but I
00:33:23
think we're way too careful as a
00:33:24
profession and I think that we are a bit
00:33:27
we sort of we turn on ourselves a little
00:33:29
bit too much um and
00:33:32
so you know I there were I I yeah I know
00:33:35
there were psychologist that didn't
00:33:37
think that what I was doing was a good
00:33:38
thing
00:33:39
but my my thing is always
00:33:43
um if you're doing something and you
00:33:45
don't and you feel like you can't or
00:33:47
shouldn't talk about it to other
00:33:49
professionals then it's wrong and so
00:33:51
I've always been really open about kind
00:33:52
of the stuff I did and also I was always
00:33:54
working in teams of people so it was
00:33:56
never just me doing stuff you're work in
00:33:57
this collaborative team we're all making
00:33:59
decisions together um but yeah like I
00:34:01
know there are some psychologists that
00:34:03
don't I don't give a I don't care give
00:34:06
[ __ ] I get the feeling you don't that
00:34:08
Ted Talk I was talking about that's on
00:34:09
YouTube you tell a story in there about
00:34:11
a kid that's um doing um play therapy or
00:34:14
sand therapy whatever it's called and
00:34:15
you you basically um uh get through to
00:34:18
him by teaching him how to trick the
00:34:19
psychologist yeah um I was thinking yeah
00:34:22
a lot of your peers must would be like
00:34:23
oh that's not the correct way to do it
00:34:25
but it's effective it is and a lot of
00:34:27
them would like there lots of really
00:34:28
good psychologists doing really good
00:34:29
work I just think they we're too worried
00:34:32
about what other psychologists will
00:34:33
think of the stuff that we do and so
00:34:35
there's lots of people really creative
00:34:36
and good stuff me my thing was always I
00:34:38
don't like my obligation is not your
00:34:40
sensibilities my obligation is this he's
00:34:42
this kid in the room and my job is to
00:34:44
find out what's going on and so I'll do
00:34:46
whatever I need to do within the Realms
00:34:48
of what's you know ethical and
00:34:50
responsible um to help this kid to talk
00:34:53
about stuff and I don't care if some up
00:34:54
top I I once offered to do a talk at the
00:34:57
site confence
00:34:58
and I was going to call it um why we
00:35:00
need to pack a less and fat more but
00:35:03
they they they said they wouldn't let me
00:35:05
do it unless I change the title I said
00:35:06
well I'm not changing the title so I
00:35:08
didn't do it but I do think it's that
00:35:09
it's like we don't do everyone's just
00:35:12
far too freaking careful and worried
00:35:14
about stuff you know everyone's worried
00:35:15
about getting
00:35:16
canceled from what I can see canel just
00:35:18
means people say mean [ __ ] about you on
00:35:20
the internet well who gives a [ __ ] like
00:35:21
you know it's like cancel me I'm fine
00:35:25
with that um it just mean you go oh typ
00:35:27
ity typ it
00:35:30
it's so true so so um from kids you move
00:35:32
on to um like like just the worst of the
00:35:35
worst like violent offenders sex
00:35:37
offenders murderers um when when you're
00:35:41
working with terrible people like that
00:35:42
like what sort of impact does it have on
00:35:44
your mental health like how how do you
00:35:45
switch off outside of the other thing is
00:35:47
most of them weren't terrible people
00:35:49
like your job when you're doing that
00:35:50
stuff is you have to you can't you have
00:35:53
to find a way to connect and build a
00:35:54
relationship with this other person
00:35:55
because you're saying to this other
00:35:56
human being hey don't do those bad
00:35:58
things anymore like try these other
00:36:00
things instead no one is going to listen
00:36:02
to that or think about that if you if
00:36:05
you're an [ __ ] or if you're angry at
00:36:07
them or you're Haring them or making
00:36:09
them feel bad you got to find a way to
00:36:10
connect with the actual kind of person
00:36:12
inside of all of that and so there's
00:36:14
their behaviors and then there's the
00:36:16
person there are very I can't think of a
00:36:19
single offender that I work with that I
00:36:21
didn't find something to like about
00:36:23
because they're just they're just people
00:36:25
and we kind of have this idea that they
00:36:27
vastly different to us no they're not
00:36:29
they're us they're just us you know it's
00:36:31
just some of most of us are lucky and
00:36:33
that as sexual fantasies aren't about
00:36:35
things are illegal or if they are about
00:36:37
things are illegal we don't actually do
00:36:38
them um some people uh get caught up in
00:36:41
all kinds of things and you know our
00:36:43
prisons aren't full of people who are
00:36:46
innately bad they're full of people who
00:36:47
have alcohol and drug habits who grew up
00:36:49
in poverty who didn't get kind of enough
00:36:52
education who grew up on trauma and all
00:36:53
that kind of stuff and all the you know
00:36:55
people go oh it's all woke apologist
00:36:57
nonsense is just like botocks you go
00:36:59
into these places and sit down with
00:37:00
someone ask them about their life story
00:37:02
and then tell me that you think that
00:37:05
they're just innately a bad person if
00:37:07
you grow up being beaten and abused and
00:37:10
hungry and cold and scared you're not
00:37:13
going to think the world's a lovely
00:37:14
place and I should be nice to other
00:37:15
people you're going to think the world
00:37:16
doesn't give a [ __ ] about me so why
00:37:18
should I give a [ __ ] about other people
00:37:19
so you have to find stuff to kind of
00:37:21
connect and like about those people and
00:37:24
and it's a it's a really good life skill
00:37:26
because um not many of us have to do
00:37:28
that we often you know we we meet a
00:37:31
whole bunch of people and you don't
00:37:32
always have to find things to like but
00:37:35
it always looks better if you do [ __ ]
00:37:38
you're a good bastard aren't you like I
00:37:40
mean you could you could you could you
00:37:41
know no you are because you could I I
00:37:43
got some friends that are like ex cops
00:37:45
and they a lot of them ended up like
00:37:47
quite cynical like have an ability toly
00:37:49
the worst in almost everyone but seems
00:37:51
like you can you you've got this ability
00:37:53
to I don't know maybe it's a compassion
00:37:55
streak or something to that there is a
00:37:57
little bit of good in everyone well I
00:37:59
think I'm just fundamentally I'm a
00:38:01
pragmatist and so I I want to do
00:38:03
whatever works I'm fundamentally kind of
00:38:06
lazy and a pregn and so I don't want to
00:38:08
have to do [ __ ] if there's no point of
00:38:09
doing it like I want to the fastest
00:38:11
route to something happening um and it
00:38:14
is through this thing I totally get why
00:38:15
cops get like that like I think if I'd
00:38:17
spent my career in the police I'm pretty
00:38:18
sure I would have been like that too
00:38:20
because their job is to basically catch
00:38:24
people and lock them up like they're not
00:38:26
doing therapy the job wasn't Conn
00:38:28
although you know you read people like
00:38:30
um uh TR Hood's book that's just this is
00:38:34
oh yeah masking monsters and one of the
00:38:37
Chuck's a really smart guy um and it's a
00:38:40
fantastic book like if you want a really
00:38:43
good book to show you what criminal
00:38:45
profiling is like in the real world was
00:38:47
like you will not I read the whole thing
00:38:49
in like one go it was fantastic I had
00:38:51
him um he was in that chair a couple
00:38:53
months ago and he he he sort of echoed
00:38:56
what you were saying about this a bit of
00:38:57
good in everyone but he said the the
00:38:59
exception to that role in his experience
00:39:00
was Malcolm Raya yeah yeah some people
00:39:03
you look at them and for whatever reason
00:39:06
there're just cold dead eyes and and you
00:39:10
know you can come up with whatever
00:39:11
theories you want from that but it's the
00:39:13
smart thing is to take people like that
00:39:15
just put them in a place where they
00:39:16
can't get out and be with other people
00:39:17
because if they are they'll hurt them um
00:39:19
so I absolutely think there are people
00:39:21
like that um but but you know even
00:39:24
people like Chuck one of the things I
00:39:25
like about his book and he he did have
00:39:28
compassion and he did have that ability
00:39:29
to kind of reach out and deal with
00:39:31
people and you look at the best cops the
00:39:32
best cops aren't marcho arrogant pushing
00:39:35
people around they're like calming
00:39:36
everything down treating people with
00:39:38
respect d d d that stuff gets you a long
00:39:40
way yeah that's great yeah there's a
00:39:43
quote from Michelle Obama that I I love
00:39:45
I use it all the time um I've learned
00:39:47
it's harder to hate up close sounds like
00:39:49
you'd agree with that yeah yeah it's
00:39:50
like every time this is the thing about
00:39:53
the internet right everyone
00:39:55
goes and I I don't know why anyone goes
00:39:58
on Facebook to engage in a conversation
00:40:00
because it's like I think this
00:40:02
politically oh you're a dick no you're a
00:40:04
dick you're a dick and it just goes
00:40:05
backwards and forwards and backwards and
00:40:07
forwards um no one ever changes their
00:40:09
mind on the internet about any of that
00:40:11
kind of stuff but when you get two
00:40:14
people together they do we did this I
00:40:15
don't think we ever it was for a show
00:40:17
but we didn't put this B on we got
00:40:19
people from the furtherest ends of the
00:40:21
political continum that we could get and
00:40:24
we interviewed them first about their
00:40:25
views about other people in the world
00:40:26
and stuff and then we um brought them
00:40:29
together to make a pizza like it was
00:40:30
just schaly tally stuff but I remember
00:40:32
this one guy like he was on the dial had
00:40:34
been for 3 years and then this other
00:40:35
person was really high up in the ACT
00:40:37
party and they both talked about
00:40:39
unemployed people D D D D D D and then
00:40:42
we brought them together to make a pizza
00:40:43
and we did so you you think this about
00:40:45
them and you think this about them why
00:40:46
don't you have a ched about that and you
00:40:48
can't be it's just much harder to be
00:40:50
mean to people in the same room and so
00:40:52
what happens is we discover that
00:40:53
actually people do have far more in
00:40:56
common than they're not it's like we
00:40:59
spent uh 10 days in Parliament a couple
00:41:01
of years ago doing a docko about
00:41:02
basically what a politicians do all day
00:41:05
um you know they worked really hard and
00:41:08
and we sat in select committees and it's
00:41:10
boring it never makes a tally but it was
00:41:12
all of them working together to try to
00:41:15
do sensible things
00:41:17
so I think you know most most people
00:41:20
their intentions are good that doesn't
00:41:22
mean that the stuff they do is always
00:41:24
good but their intentions are usually
00:41:25
good you speaking of um yeah like
00:41:28
internet trolls and stuff you used to be
00:41:31
active on Twitter and then you you you
00:41:33
stopped you stopped why why did you what
00:41:36
was the I suddenly realized I'd never go
00:41:38
on Twitter and feel anything but angry
00:41:40
you know and it's like and was it
00:41:42
debating with strangers people that you
00:41:44
oh yeah and I got this weird thing with
00:41:46
Simon Bridges oh yeah what was that
00:41:48
there was some beef there right it was a
00:41:49
weird thing he he called you a lefty or
00:41:51
something yeah well he he said either
00:41:53
you know the governor's done nothing
00:41:54
about housing and I just tweeted and
00:41:56
back cuz people do well dude like you
00:41:58
had N9 years you you know they didn't
00:42:01
just it wasn't perfect um and then he
00:42:03
came back with something and I came back
00:42:04
with something and that went on for like
00:42:05
two days and then um then Natalie said
00:42:08
what are you what are you doing I mean
00:42:10
what do you mean she said you're just
00:42:12
angry yell guy on Twitter with Simon
00:42:13
Bridges and I thought oh yeah like what
00:42:16
the how did that happen so I just I did
00:42:19
I did used to do a thing though where
00:42:21
cuz I quite liked I quite like when
00:42:23
people kind of troll you a little bit
00:42:24
and um there was this one dude who you
00:42:27
know why is n lat such a big star and so
00:42:30
I was staying in Denon at my mom's place
00:42:32
and I remember I spent 45 minutes trying
00:42:34
to explain how a star has formed in 160
00:42:38
character you know swirling dust circles
00:42:42
gravity and then the whole thing ignites
00:42:43
and that's how it becomes a star and he
00:42:44
went back you're a
00:42:46
dck and then I I was just going back
00:42:49
being relentlessly good humored and nice
00:42:51
to him and eventually he just look can
00:42:52
you just stop now you just leave me
00:42:55
alone I'm sorry was my good humor
00:42:57
getting in the way of your trolling and
00:42:59
then again at my mom's place I made up
00:43:02
an account called Nigel trolling Nigel
00:43:04
where um I think I only did it once but
00:43:06
I trolled myself uh and you're a dick oh
00:43:10
no then CU then I could win the argument
00:43:12
so but it was too hard to log out and
00:43:15
log back in so I gave that up oh my God
00:43:17
that seems so time and tensive um when
00:43:21
when did you become a big star when was
00:43:23
the moment that you thought oh I'm I'm
00:43:24
um I'm kind of famous now well was it
00:43:27
was it start with a book dealer was it a
00:43:29
TV show no it was it's I was kind of um
00:43:34
it probably after the I think the
00:43:36
parenting show was probably when the the
00:43:38
Poli that when we' got some quite big
00:43:41
audiences for back in the day for that
00:43:44
um and it was just it was a very strange
00:43:46
thing because I'm from omaro and so I
00:43:49
didn't I I I didn't know anyone on the
00:43:52
media or Telly or anything like that so
00:43:53
that whole world is pretty weird and it
00:43:55
just it just kind gradually happens and
00:43:58
then it's like you suddenly it's like oh
00:44:01
like I'm part of this kind of people but
00:44:04
you know to be fear it's TV in New
00:44:07
Zealand right and I remember going to oh
00:44:10
it was some TV Awards thing before I
00:44:12
stopped going CU I missed the good ones
00:44:13
back in the 90s they were awesome from
00:44:15
all accounts it's fighting and drugs and
00:44:18
Scandal now it's justone being nice to
00:44:20
each other um but there were all these
00:44:22
sort of tally people um some of the
00:44:24
nbook people were sort of getting the
00:44:26
photos in front of the thing and sort of
00:44:28
and I just remember thinking settle down
00:44:31
like if you're on tally and and people
00:44:34
know you and New Zealand it's like being
00:44:36
in a community newspaper in Sydney you
00:44:38
know what I mean like it's not like
00:44:40
you're not you're big fish in a very
00:44:41
small pond yeah you are and it's like
00:44:43
and it's not taking anything away from
00:44:44
it but it's like it's that part of the
00:44:48
whole thing is meaningless and frivolous
00:44:49
and silly what it does though um is that
00:44:53
it gets you access to people and it
00:44:54
gives you more influence and so for a
00:44:57
time when I was doing T stuff and
00:44:58
clinical stuff it worked really well
00:45:00
because a social worker could say the
00:45:03
same thing to family for ages and then
00:45:05
they just wouldn't listen they go do you
00:45:06
want to see that guy from a tell he'd
00:45:07
come and see you oh yeah so I would come
00:45:09
and see them say the same things as a
00:45:11
social worker and then they would just
00:45:12
start to listen and do those things and
00:45:14
it's just because of the star power yeah
00:45:16
it's just because of the thing eyes on
00:45:17
the tell he must know what he's talking
00:45:18
about that's awesome um but speak of
00:45:22
those TV Awards it must be like
00:45:23
gratifying um you're knowing that you're
00:45:26
there because you've done some done some
00:45:27
like good work that adds values to
00:45:29
people life people's life rather than
00:45:30
just sitting there reading an auto queue
00:45:31
with the day's current affairs on yeah I
00:45:35
well what I liked about doco making is
00:45:37
it's kind of like um you get to work
00:45:39
with a team of people and um I always
00:45:42
work with like just great people and
00:45:44
like some of the best years in Telly
00:45:46
that I had um it was a couple of years
00:45:48
where it was just you know my friend
00:45:51
Mitchell um and and be and gab and we
00:45:54
the four of us were just tole around the
00:45:56
place can Telly and then you meet you
00:45:58
know all these talented guys dominant
00:46:01
all these people who are really super
00:46:02
talented um and you and you get to go
00:46:05
around and do that and what I like is I
00:46:08
I do like that collaborative process and
00:46:11
I've never liked the idea of anyone
00:46:12
being special in any way and so I never
00:46:15
bought into that you're the presenter so
00:46:17
you get the best stuff thing I think
00:46:18
that's [ __ ] I think if you're the
00:46:19
presenter you know the least amount and
00:46:21
you've got the least amount of expertise
00:46:24
of anyone here dops soundies directors
00:46:27
you know they all have to know and do a
00:46:29
whole bunch of stuff I just have to make
00:46:33
words come out on my face like that's
00:46:34
literally all I have to do and so so we
00:46:37
we always had teams where we we like
00:46:39
everyone Weighing on ideas and no idea
00:46:42
was sacred and we started from the
00:46:44
position that you know the blank page
00:46:46
you fill the blank page with something
00:46:47
ugly and stupid and then we're all just
00:46:49
going to kick it and kick it and kick it
00:46:51
until it becomes kind of better and I
00:46:52
really I like I like that process so the
00:46:55
my first job always when I'm working
00:46:56
with new people was just to convince him
00:46:58
I do any of that presenter stuff like
00:46:59
please don't do that Gabe though was an
00:47:02
ask I work with Gabe and Gabe's a Gabe
00:47:05
would what he would do because he knew
00:47:07
that I hated that and so if if we were
00:47:10
with someone if we were i' be doing n
00:47:13
right the chat before the interview and
00:47:14
Gabe would come to mic me up with my
00:47:16
little microphone stuff what he would do
00:47:18
is he would kneel down in front of me
00:47:20
and keep his eyes down like that so
00:47:21
excuse me Mr L I know you don't like me
00:47:22
interrupting when you're talking to
00:47:24
people um I do apologize for that but
00:47:26
would it be all right if I was to mic
00:47:27
you up and I know that I don't want to
00:47:28
make you cross said Gabe don't freaking
00:47:30
do that because they don't and once we
00:47:32
were filming in a park um and it had
00:47:34
been raining so we had an easy up on the
00:47:36
center of the park and we' rra for the
00:47:38
day and all these houses around some
00:47:40
kids were watching us cuz of the lights
00:47:41
and stuff out there and um I was walking
00:47:43
out to the car thinking oh that's weird
00:47:45
like why is it not raining on me and it
00:47:46
is raining else Gabe was following me
00:47:48
through the park with an umbrella over
00:47:50
me him and the pouring rain making me
00:47:53
look like a total wanker
00:47:58
oh my God that's amazing that's like
00:48:00
Peak C liberity status having an
00:48:02
umbrella holder um so uh I God I don't
00:48:06
even know if you won any TV Awards or
00:48:07
not but I'm assuming you would have no
00:48:09
no i i l every time
00:48:12
um um um um Jeremy um um Wells um cor
00:48:19
cor ke my brain ke my brain is that is
00:48:22
that a thing yeah it really is a thing
00:48:23
like I'm just like half the time I can't
00:48:25
rate anything at all at the moment um
00:48:28
but uh yeah I've been at a couple
00:48:31
and so one one of is Jeremy corber with
00:48:35
Jeremy corber one so I thought right
00:48:36
you're my nemesis from now on
00:48:39
um it's a nice Nemesis a comedian is a
00:48:41
nemesis quite that's a good name as that
00:48:44
um and then there was one a couple of
00:48:46
years ago I think where I went and um
00:48:48
for some reason I was in the same
00:48:49
category as Sam Neil and Sam Neil was
00:48:52
about five people back in the line to
00:48:55
kind of get on I thought I'll just be
00:48:57
friendly I'll just go up and you know
00:48:59
and so I went up to Sam
00:49:00
Neil and I thought he's in the same
00:49:03
category surely he and I said look mate
00:49:06
if I get up there and I win I'm going to
00:49:08
[ __ ] talk you I'm going to [ __ ] talk
00:49:09
your work I'm going to [ __ ] talk your
00:49:10
show I'm just warning you and he sort of
00:49:12
looked at me he went sorry who are
00:49:17
you oh my god weird look okay I'm just
00:49:21
gonna wow what an amazing story Amazing
00:49:25
Story um oh okay so no TV Awards but the
00:49:28
Queen's birthday honors is was that
00:49:29
special that must have been gratifying
00:49:31
humbling yeah it was but it's also it's
00:49:33
very strange to get things like that um
00:49:35
what what have you got an O an ozm what
00:49:37
does that mean an officer of the New
00:49:40
Zealand order of I think that's what it
00:49:44
means um yeah like it was it was uh it
00:49:47
was it was Strang it was nice because I
00:49:49
got to go to government I mean the nice
00:49:51
thing about it is I got to go to
00:49:52
government house with my mom uh and uh
00:49:55
you know with my kids because they were
00:49:56
a lot younger then uh and so that was
00:49:58
all kind of nice and um you know met the
00:50:01
governor general and the carpets have
00:50:03
you ever been to govern house carpets
00:50:05
are awesome are they why everyone was
00:50:07
going man these carpets are awesome you
00:50:09
just wanted to take your shoes off and
00:50:11
just run around your socks like they
00:50:12
were these really soft deep carpets
00:50:14
that's the thing I remember the most
00:50:15
it's like where' you get your carpets
00:50:16
from these are
00:50:18
great but that's did you take your shoes
00:50:21
off no no
00:50:23
um yes so um so so you recently got
00:50:26
married he so your wife um Nal Flyn yeah
00:50:29
six well about seven months ago so our
00:50:32
anniversary is November yeah yeah so
00:50:34
second marriage your first one was
00:50:35
really long like almost 30 years yeah
00:50:37
almost 29 years yeah yeah how how how's
00:50:40
that is that are you guys on okay terms
00:50:43
uh it was a complicated situation let's
00:50:46
just say that okay uh so my My Hope of
00:50:50
how that played out wasn't how it played
00:50:53
out which is you know that's just how
00:50:56
things are but um yeah now I'm with uh
00:50:59
this uh amazing person and um like just
00:51:03
super happy I think I kind of see it on
00:51:05
the video but I think it's true it's
00:51:07
like I think if if you're really lucky
00:51:09
in life you meet like your person and
00:51:12
like there's just and you have the sense
00:51:13
that of all of the people in the world
00:51:15
like you are the person and so she kind
00:51:17
of is that for me and so it's been um
00:51:20
that's been that's been really lovely
00:51:22
and yeah there's there's a line in that
00:51:24
in that video where you talking about
00:51:25
Natalie and um
00:51:27
I I don't know how many minutes in it
00:51:28
was but um it made me start crying just
00:51:31
the line was um I think she makes me
00:51:33
feel safe yeah she beautiful beautiful
00:51:36
line she she makes me feel
00:51:38
um safe and and particularly over the
00:51:41
last four months it's been like it's
00:51:44
really nice to have someone that you can
00:51:47
lean on like that and you know and she
00:51:49
is um like she comes from a family of
00:51:52
super smart people who her her father
00:51:54
was Jim Flyn who was this world-renowned
00:51:57
Economist her brother's a Oxford math
00:51:59
professor um basically in that house I'm
00:52:01
like a chimpanzee like there's everyone
00:52:03
else in the house and then there's the
00:52:04
chimpanzee and I I can fix laptops and
00:52:07
plug things in but that's pretty much it
00:52:10
um uh but yeah but but she's she's what
00:52:13
I really love about her is that she
00:52:15
doesn't judge and she's absolutely kind
00:52:18
of fearless like most people are a bit
00:52:20
judgy about some things but she's a bit
00:52:21
like me she's worked with um all kinds
00:52:24
of people in all kinds of places and so
00:52:26
just doesn't do that and
00:52:28
she's like compassionate to the point
00:52:31
that you feel it's say no you don't have
00:52:33
like she was really worried about rayan
00:52:35
after the Olympics about how she was
00:52:36
doing you
00:52:38
know which just but like really worried
00:52:41
about it um and I keep we got enough to
00:52:43
worry about I'm sure rean will be fine
00:52:45
um but no it's it's it's it's it is
00:52:48
really lovely having kind of found found
00:52:51
something like that so now that's the
00:52:53
motivation for me it's like I I there's
00:52:55
nothing I want to do or know where that
00:52:58
I want to go I just kind of want to be
00:53:00
with her and we want to get old and we
00:53:03
go to an old age home and complain about
00:53:05
the people around
00:53:06
us oh those Ryman homes look so good
00:53:09
don't they I know looks like Cony for
00:53:11
Senor I know I know I know um how did
00:53:14
how did you guys make you you working on
00:53:16
an app parent land yeah so we we' known
00:53:18
each other for a while um through work
00:53:21
yeah and so I'd uh I we were kind of I
00:53:24
initially met her because she wrote this
00:53:25
book called mothering um which is a
00:53:29
really evidence-based look at the about
00:53:31
babies and what they need she loves
00:53:33
babies loves the babies like we when we
00:53:35
walk past someone with a baby I have to
00:53:38
hold her hand really tight cuz I say
00:53:39
it's not your baby you can't and once
00:53:41
we're Wellington airport and there was
00:53:43
this mom had these two little twin
00:53:44
babies on a rack and Natalie was going
00:53:46
up and chatting to her and I could see
00:53:47
the mom was getting a little bit anxious
00:53:49
cuz she You Could See n I'm going to
00:53:51
take one of
00:53:52
them maybe the closest one get that one
00:53:56
um yeah so we we sort of um I'd meet
00:53:59
because her publisher asked me to read
00:54:02
the book because i' didn't meet it
00:54:04
before then and so I did I thought it
00:54:05
was amazing book full of really good
00:54:07
stuff um and uh then we met and I
00:54:10
thought oh you're like real smart and
00:54:11
funny uh um I need to get you working on
00:54:14
the app so that's kind of how we
00:54:16
initially uh met what's it like when two
00:54:19
psychologists have an argument well we
00:54:21
don't actually argue no no like we most
00:54:23
of the time we don't um but if we do
00:54:26
it's like other people we just use words
00:54:28
and say things sometimes that you know
00:54:31
you don't necessar mean but we don't um
00:54:33
we don't kind of have
00:54:34
arguments like we sometimes we have this
00:54:38
stuff that happens and we talk about it
00:54:39
but it's not like uh I can't imagine
00:54:41
having an argument yeah okay like a
00:54:43
robust discussion
00:54:45
rather yeah I validate your
00:54:48
feelings yeah neither of us if any if if
00:54:52
anyone ever said that the other one I
00:54:53
think we'd have them just taken away and
00:54:55
seen to
00:54:57
um yeah in that that video on Instagram
00:54:59
you um you mentioned that you've been
00:55:01
through some trauma um you say this is
00:55:03
the biggest biggest trauma but there has
00:55:05
been others anything you want to share
00:55:07
or oh stuff I talked about the T talk
00:55:09
like when I was you know 14-year-old
00:55:10
doing CPR on a dead guy that was pretty
00:55:12
Grim yeah what were the circumstances of
00:55:14
that like an elderly an old elderly guy
00:55:16
with fake false teeth yeah so I was a
00:55:18
little St John cette back in omaro and
00:55:20
um well another thing that you get like
00:55:24
get anyways chemo runny nose there you
00:55:26
are a little bit of information there um
00:55:29
uh yeah I was a little St John cette and
00:55:31
I was at this BL Place who was an
00:55:33
ambulance officer in omaro and he got
00:55:35
this call and it was just around the
00:55:36
corner so I kind of went and um ended up
00:55:39
doing CPR on the Dead Guy and it turns
00:55:41
out um it's not like the resusitation
00:55:43
dummy where it's all clean and rubbery
00:55:46
it's just it's rubbery and if you make
00:55:50
The Beginner's mistake which I did of
00:55:51
taking out the false teeth mouth loses
00:55:54
all structure it's just this big sort of
00:55:55
blubbery covered hole um and you're
00:55:58
blowing and it's wheezing and gurgling
00:56:00
and all that so so so I so I had um I
00:56:04
had definitely had some sort of stuff
00:56:06
from that but one of the things like
00:56:07
people talk about post-traumatic stress
00:56:09
disorder which we all know about which
00:56:10
is kind of that's the bad side of
00:56:11
drawing but you can have post-traumatic
00:56:13
growth like for most people for the
00:56:14
majority of people you go through
00:56:16
something traumatic um and you get
00:56:19
stronger as a result of it and so for me
00:56:21
that was super useful because that was
00:56:23
my yard stuck about is this bad it's
00:56:25
like well
00:56:27
old Dead Guy vomiting your mouth that's
00:56:28
worse than us you know so most things
00:56:30
actually seemed easy in
00:56:32
comparison and the other things are just
00:56:34
weird things like I remember um when we
00:56:37
did the did the beyond the darklands
00:56:40
thing I part of it is you sometimes see
00:56:44
some of the evidence books and things
00:56:46
and when we were doing the Michael Choy
00:56:48
episode um who was killed by all those
00:56:50
kids Bailey BJ kuruki and a bunch of
00:56:53
other kids yeah m p delivery guy yeah um
00:56:56
I remember this I still remember this
00:56:57
photo in the evidence book of this in
00:57:00
the kitchen and it was just a rubbish
00:57:02
bin with a pizza box and some drink
00:57:04
bottles in it and that was the stuff
00:57:05
they taken from the go and I just
00:57:06
remember sitting there looking at it
00:57:08
thinking like they killed him for
00:57:10
basically pizza and freaking change and
00:57:13
so that that kind of image is always
00:57:15
stay with me and some of the
00:57:18
conversations that you I had with family
00:57:21
about what it was like for them losing
00:57:23
people that that that that kind of stuff
00:57:25
too but mostly what happens is
00:57:29
um you have to decide early on you have
00:57:32
to be able to kind of put that stuff
00:57:33
down and if you can't then you can't do
00:57:37
that and so you know I'm really good at
00:57:39
being when I'm in something I can be in
00:57:41
it and I can just put it down and and
00:57:43
and go home how can how can any one of
00:57:46
us um be you're more resilient like
00:57:49
there's a great joke at the beginning of
00:57:50
that video where you talk about trigger
00:57:52
warnings or something that only bomb
00:57:55
disposal
00:57:57
it's it's a great L but it does feel
00:57:58
like everything has a a trigger warning
00:58:00
now it's like when do we all become so
00:58:03
fragile and useless that we can't talk
00:58:05
about things I was at a stopping
00:58:07
violence conference right it's a it's a
00:58:09
Family Violence conference about Family
00:58:12
Violence and one of the people got up
00:58:15
and said just a trigger warning I'm
00:58:18
going to talk about violence and uh that
00:58:20
may be triggering for people and
00:58:22
upsetting and I'm sitting there thinking
00:58:24
it's a [ __ ] family VI conference like
00:58:27
I got up from mine I said I'm not giving
00:58:29
you a trigger warning if you are at this
00:58:31
conference and you're triggered by the
00:58:33
fact that we're talking about Family
00:58:35
Violence you're either stupid because
00:58:37
you hadn't worked out that's what family
00:58:39
violence is or you're messed up and you
00:58:41
need to go and talk to someone like
00:58:42
that's how mad the world has got I don't
00:58:45
give trigger warnings for anything
00:58:46
because I have the belief that we can
00:58:48
talk about things and actually sometimes
00:58:50
you get upset and that's that's okay so
00:58:53
part of it I think is not buying into
00:58:54
all of that nonsense um
00:58:56
but I think a large part of resilience
00:58:58
is I I think there are some really
00:59:00
simple ideas it's about you know it is
00:59:02
about being intentional and driving the
00:59:03
bus like we all get to choose our
00:59:05
response and so things happen to us and
00:59:07
they can be upsetting and traumatic and
00:59:09
bad but even in the depths of that you
00:59:11
still get to choose how you respond to
00:59:14
those things and that's not just some
00:59:16
wery sort of idea people like Victor
00:59:19
Frankle the Jewish psychiatrist who
00:59:20
survived four camps during the war he
00:59:22
talked about the last fundamental human
00:59:24
Freedom as to choose their responsib
00:59:26
given situation you get to choose that
00:59:28
um then it's about you know the old
00:59:31
stoic idea about for me anyway my single
00:59:34
biggest Stress Management goto is just
00:59:37
focus on the things that you can control
00:59:39
it's a really simple idea but it really
00:59:42
works and so I could get lost in all of
00:59:45
the cancer stuff but I can't control any
00:59:47
of that um what I can control is am I
00:59:49
sleeping what stuff am I eating do I
00:59:52
meditate am I doing a little bit of
00:59:54
exercise like where is my mind that
00:59:56
these are these are things that I can
00:59:58
control and so it's easy to become
01:00:00
swamped with things but if you think
01:00:02
okay what can I control right now maybe
01:00:04
all you can control is how you're
01:00:05
sitting and how you're breathing um that
01:00:08
day outside of the standing outside of
01:00:11
the um surgeon's office when I just felt
01:00:14
completely lost I thought okay
01:00:18
well I can make a decision like that's
01:00:20
something I can make a decision about
01:00:22
where I'm going to go to now um and then
01:00:26
for me the last thing is like it's
01:00:27
always about team it's about building up
01:00:29
the people around you it's about seeing
01:00:31
that your job is to make the peoples
01:00:34
around your you to make their lives kind
01:00:37
of better in some way and and it's that
01:00:39
idea of kind of building people up um is
01:00:43
the stuff that's useful because that's
01:00:45
when you need people like we've got a
01:00:47
really great group of friends um and
01:00:50
they've been super kind and super
01:00:52
helpful and so it's the team around you
01:00:54
that that made us so I think there are
01:00:55
some things that people can do um and it
01:00:58
doesn't make it any easier like things
01:01:01
are things are hard there's no magical
01:01:03
if you do these three amazing things
01:01:05
everything will be easy and simple
01:01:07
because it won't um it's just that uh it
01:01:10
can be harder it can be it can be less
01:01:13
hard and so doing some of those things I
01:01:16
think makes it easy to kind of chug
01:01:17
through yeah oh thanks for sharing that
01:01:19
so many good takeaways there and by the
01:01:20
way um Frankle who you mentioned um yeah
01:01:23
uh man search for meing is one of my one
01:01:25
of my favorite books of
01:01:26
I keep buying a copy and then I'll give
01:01:28
it to someone else and have to replace
01:01:29
it it's
01:01:31
fantastic um so you want to talk about
01:01:34
the cancer for a bit yeah so yeah I feel
01:01:36
like it's been a running thread through
01:01:38
this so um yeah so you're feeling unwell
01:01:40
for how long like a sore throat right no
01:01:43
so about four four about four or five
01:01:46
weeks maybe maybe six weeks maybe a bit
01:01:48
more I would eat eat stuff and feel full
01:01:51
really quickly and almost sort of get
01:01:53
like a painful sort of pushy feeling at
01:01:55
the back of my right I at the time and I
01:01:57
started to lose a bit of weight now at
01:01:59
the time I thought a it's peptic Ula um
01:02:02
so I thought I was on the pipic Ula diet
01:02:04
this is great CU I lost about 6 kgs and
01:02:07
this is awesome like I want to get this
01:02:08
fixed but I'm just going to wait till a
01:02:10
little bit
01:02:11
more I'm almost at the goal way yeah
01:02:14
it's like it's my new fat diet it's like
01:02:17
it turns out on the gastric cancer diet
01:02:18
which is not as good as a piples time
01:02:21
but a long
01:02:22
shot I thought I can't really face it if
01:02:24
you want to lose weight and eat lots of
01:02:26
chocolate and drink fizzy drinks go on
01:02:28
the gastric cancer diet you may die but
01:02:31
you're definitely going to lose weight
01:02:33
um so so I I those kind of symptoms and
01:02:37
um I've got so I did kind of think my
01:02:41
tendenc is to put most things off but I
01:02:43
just thought a feels like something so I
01:02:45
went to my GP as a great GP sent me to
01:02:47
the gastro person and then off off it
01:02:48
rolled from
01:02:50
there and then um so when so yeah so you
01:02:53
have the night in the hotel your phone
01:02:55
who who did you phone by the way who did
01:02:56
you phone that night um oh I can this is
01:02:58
one thing I want to say the one of the
01:03:01
first people that I phoned was our
01:03:03
insurance guy one of the things I've
01:03:05
learned from this is that and I'm
01:03:07
telling this to everyone and I'm really
01:03:08
glad I remember this um insurance
01:03:11
insurance insurance and I know that for
01:03:14
a lot of people insurance is a luxury
01:03:16
and they can't get it but for some
01:03:18
people you could get it but they don't
01:03:20
you need life insurance and you need to
01:03:21
look at how your life insurance is
01:03:23
structured because there's money you get
01:03:24
when you die but also you can get
01:03:26
payments for if you're permanently
01:03:28
disabled or if you get a terrible
01:03:30
diagnosis um you need health insurance
01:03:33
uh and you need income protection the
01:03:36
health insurance stuff that there's
01:03:39
there's no place I think in our health
01:03:41
system where that inequity is more clear
01:03:44
than an oncology because the difference
01:03:46
between living and dying and oncology is
01:03:48
money and if you have money then you can
01:03:51
get the drugs a lot of people can't get
01:03:53
and it gives you the options yeah yeah
01:03:56
and now the one thing I wish I'd done
01:03:57
differently is that uh in my health I
01:04:00
have health insurance which has been
01:04:03
just a god scen um but what I didn't do
01:04:06
is take the extra cancer cover because
01:04:07
you don't CU most people don't know
01:04:09
anything about oncology they don't think
01:04:11
about the fact that one and three people
01:04:12
are going to get cancer they don't know
01:04:15
uh which drugs are funded and non-funded
01:04:17
it's only after you get it you go oh so
01:04:20
I wish I'd ticked the extra cancer cover
01:04:23
up to 300,000 box if I took that that
01:04:26
would have been great is there a box
01:04:27
below that for Turbo
01:04:29
cancer not yet there will be soon though
01:04:32
um yeah what so you get the diagnosis
01:04:35
then when when does the chemo start is
01:04:37
it like the same week is it well this is
01:04:39
again where health insurance is such a
01:04:41
it just shows the difference basically
01:04:43
within 10 days of being diagnosed I was
01:04:45
doing chemo and so they put a little
01:04:48
thing in called porter cath um which is
01:04:50
like a little a little a little device
01:04:53
in here like a little tap yeah it's just
01:04:54
under the skin and and uh so they can
01:04:56
inject the drug straight into your kind
01:04:58
of heart and you don't have to worry
01:05:00
about veins and stuff like that um I got
01:05:02
that done I had scans I got that done uh
01:05:04
and within 10 days I was sitting there
01:05:07
as they were pumping all the stuff and
01:05:09
going oh Yep this is an unexpected event
01:05:11
we were you um like shutting how were
01:05:13
you pre chemotherapy were you shutting
01:05:15
bricks just the fear of the unknown
01:05:16
really the thing that I was having panic
01:05:18
attacks about was the this was the
01:05:20
porath I don't know why but this thing
01:05:22
really freaked me out and so when we
01:05:24
kind of got on there on the day um and
01:05:26
the guy was talking about said look
01:05:28
usually I'm pretty good about this stuff
01:05:30
but I'm losing my [ __ ] can you give me
01:05:31
as much my desam and fendol as you can
01:05:34
as quickly as you can and that stuff is
01:05:36
freaking awesome if I was a billionaire
01:05:38
I'd have a raging addiction but I would
01:05:41
pay a really good entist to manager I
01:05:44
think people like the people that the
01:05:46
celebrities that die from the stuff they
01:05:47
just have shanky just get it if you're
01:05:49
going to get addicted to these things
01:05:50
and I can see why you would cuz they are
01:05:53
awesome um really wait what what what
01:05:56
like in what way just like a nice warm
01:05:57
feeling yeah it's like you go from being
01:05:59
it's just the best thing um you go from
01:06:01
being I was really honestly actually
01:06:03
having a panic attack like I don't know
01:06:05
why but it just really freaked me out
01:06:07
and so you're like panicking panicking
01:06:08
panicking
01:06:09
panicking and they put F on you get
01:06:11
Penny ah F super race oh this is awesome
01:06:14
hey we should do this like every week
01:06:15
you guys are cool I'm going to come back
01:06:18
here I'm going to take this out at home
01:06:20
and go a sorry fell out again we need to
01:06:23
do another one is is that what Jackson
01:06:26
was taking to sleep yeah it's it's
01:06:28
incredibly dangerous and it was
01:06:30
dangerous when fentel was kind of
01:06:31
entering the market here and kids were
01:06:32
starting to use it like people don't
01:06:34
know how dangerous it is um but when
01:06:36
you're getting these procedures done
01:06:37
they give you the you melan and Fel and
01:06:39
it is a tiny little cocktail of stuff
01:06:42
and what's been the biggest sort of
01:06:43
surprises about chemotherapy I suppose
01:06:46
prior to this all you sort of knew as
01:06:47
what you've seen on your movies and yeah
01:06:50
yeah I it's it's um I think the F the
01:06:54
first time was really stressful cuz new
01:06:56
and
01:06:57
also what they're looking at is do you
01:06:59
have reactions to the drugs so I was
01:07:00
thinking just don't have a reaction CU I
01:07:02
want this drug like I don't want even if
01:07:04
you do though one of the things I've
01:07:05
learned about oncology is that it's this
01:07:07
it's like this big winding path and if
01:07:09
it's blocked one way they can just go
01:07:11
another way so there's lots of different
01:07:12
things that people can do and the other
01:07:15
thing I've learned about cancer is that
01:07:16
everyone's cancer journey is different
01:07:18
like they just are and so one person's
01:07:19
story really isn't relevant to any
01:07:22
person at all it's like you know my
01:07:24
broken leg your broken leg same thing
01:07:26
with cancer because it's so genetic
01:07:29
genetic stuff is so important now um and
01:07:31
the targeting stuff is so important that
01:07:35
it's making comparisons or hearing
01:07:38
people's stories or all of those
01:07:40
timelines it's just not relevant there's
01:07:42
just you and there the road that you're
01:07:44
on is is there anything you could have
01:07:46
done differently to avoid it no no not
01:07:50
lifestyle factors or anything no it's
01:07:51
just your DNA sometimes just goes all
01:07:53
right and then it just goes off on the
01:07:55
crazy path and so I didn't drink a lot
01:07:58
like um one of things I you know one of
01:08:00
the things I just such a bum man like
01:08:02
one of my biggest regrets is that um so
01:08:05
I didn't drink for a long time uh and
01:08:07
recently probably in the last couple
01:08:09
years I've discovered cocktails I never
01:08:11
had cocktails because I would think I'm
01:08:12
not paying $22 for freaking something
01:08:15
called a pelican shock tail with mango
01:08:18
and egg yut that's ridiculous what sort
01:08:21
of an idiot would buy that and then we
01:08:24
were out once and I got a cocktail I me
01:08:26
this is the best thing I think that's
01:08:27
ever happened to me um this is so nice
01:08:30
and so I really like cocktails but I'm
01:08:33
just never drinking alcohol ever again
01:08:35
like it's a group one carcinogen um and
01:08:37
it would seem pretty freaking stupid to
01:08:39
be to get this have all these magical
01:08:42
treatments work and then Chuck a
01:08:44
carcinogen in on top so unfortunately
01:08:46
for me cocktails are out the windows and
01:08:48
that's a shame because I think
01:08:49
Margaritas are one of the great
01:08:51
achievements of the human race oh a
01:08:53
spicy margarita with a salty unbeatable
01:08:56
well have you had a coconut Margarita no
01:08:59
we want a m one just amazing it's
01:09:01
basically it's it's they make it with
01:09:03
the a margarita but you just check in
01:09:05
some I think it's coconut cream or
01:09:06
something like
01:09:07
that really nice so so like as as
01:09:10
alcohol like a a cause for yeah it's a
01:09:13
like a c like all this [ __ ] the
01:09:16
alcohol industry gives you about that's
01:09:18
you know one or two drinks a day is good
01:09:20
for you no it's not on balance it's bad
01:09:22
for everything and I'm not saying you
01:09:24
know you shouldn't drink cuz I used to
01:09:26
and and enjoyed it and all the rest of
01:09:28
stuff but it's like just be aware it's
01:09:30
like having a cigarette like it's a
01:09:31
carcinogen and it's not one drink isn't
01:09:33
going to kill you but the more you drink
01:09:35
the more you increase the likelihood of
01:09:37
these things going wrong Well it Well I
01:09:39
mean it's a poison isn't it it it it
01:09:42
pretty much is I remember we when we did
01:09:43
the alcohol documentary we we
01:09:45
interviewed Jeffrey Palmer who was scary
01:09:46
to interview because you know how you
01:09:48
sit down to do an interview and there's
01:09:49
always faffing about as you're fixing
01:09:51
stuff he was like he sat down and right
01:09:53
let's go so ah
01:09:57
we could be's just going to f about with
01:09:58
the lights a little bit and Gabe's going
01:10:00
to do some of these things and batteries
01:10:02
always need changeing yeah yeah um but
01:10:04
he said that uh one of the biggest
01:10:07
regrets of his political career was
01:10:08
liberalizing the alcohol laws and he
01:10:11
said that if you're trying to bring
01:10:12
alcohol into the country now we wouldn't
01:10:14
we wouldn't have it and it is kind of
01:10:16
weird that we freak out about cannabis
01:10:17
and MDMA and mushrooms and all these
01:10:20
things alcohol was by far more harmful
01:10:23
than any of those things you know but
01:10:25
for some reason those classes of
01:10:26
chemicals those are very bad yeah it
01:10:29
lead to the corruption of society uh but
01:10:31
alcohol that's fun M so um yes so so the
01:10:35
original oncologist that you saw that
01:10:37
tells you 6 months to 12
01:10:39
months or sujan oh yeah on on your
01:10:41
insistence so you sort of like P on the
01:10:43
basis of him not actually having all the
01:10:44
information he he had an initial scan
01:10:46
that did look like they' been spread to
01:10:48
kind of Li possibly spread to livers and
01:10:50
Lung and things like that so he had on
01:10:52
that on on on what he had in front of
01:10:53
him um he made the call that we asked
01:10:56
him to make yeah but it's looking a lot
01:10:58
better now did that did annoy you when
01:11:00
the The Herald article came out after
01:11:02
you did the video and the the headline
01:11:04
seemed very sort of clickbaity it said
01:11:06
Nigel lad dead in 6 to 12 months or
01:11:08
something dramatic I know I had to ring
01:11:10
people had to ring my because go that's
01:11:12
that's not nothing's changed nothing has
01:11:14
changed um so yeah like that was a bit
01:11:17
that was a bit click B uh and it's part
01:11:19
of the whole why I'm you know I want to
01:11:21
kind of try to manage the narrative more
01:11:23
but I you know I mean it's part of the
01:11:25
nature of it that that happens and often
01:11:27
I feel sorry for the journalists because
01:11:28
the journalists don't write the heading
01:11:30
the journalist will write the article
01:11:32
and then some subor will come on and put
01:11:34
a clickbaity hitting on and often I
01:11:35
think it drives them crazy oh it would
01:11:38
if if you're a journalist that manages
01:11:39
to win someone over and write a story
01:11:40
about them and then they get shat on by
01:11:43
whoever writes the heat line yeah um yes
01:11:45
so how are things looking now so the
01:11:46
tumor the the the treatment's working
01:11:48
the tumor shrink 60% which is massive is
01:11:51
it going to is it going to keep on
01:11:52
shrinking is that the Hope yeah so so
01:11:55
basically in the initial initially I had
01:11:58
a lymph node here with cancer activity
01:12:01
in it and some lymph nodes between my
01:12:02
lungs with cancer activity in it lymph
01:12:04
nodes around the stomach with cancer
01:12:06
activity in them nodules in the
01:12:08
peritoneum which is kind of the
01:12:09
outlining of the stomach with cancer
01:12:10
activity and the tumor itself so after
01:12:14
uh after um the first kind of three
01:12:17
months which is four rounds all the
01:12:19
cancer activities gone from this lymph
01:12:21
node all the activity gone from here the
01:12:23
activity all of the lymph nodes around
01:12:25
the stomach all of that's gone there's
01:12:27
only one nodle left now in the pisum and
01:12:30
that's got um that's that's been reduced
01:12:32
down to about 45% of what it was uh and
01:12:34
the stomach lining has has the stomach
01:12:37
tumor is thinner uh and the activity has
01:12:40
gone down by 60% so it's like incredible
01:12:42
Molly I know the the pet scans are like
01:12:46
one of the things about getting these
01:12:47
results is it's like it's just tender
01:12:49
hooks you know you're just thinking and
01:12:52
the first one was really important
01:12:53
because the first one showed how I was
01:12:55
responding to chemotherapy and so it
01:12:56
turns out um pretty damn well um and I'm
01:13:00
just really glad that there are people
01:13:03
sitting in rooms working this stuff out
01:13:06
and I hope they have no work life
01:13:07
balance I hope they ignore their
01:13:09
families and neglect theirselves the
01:13:11
health and everything else and just keep
01:13:13
working um because they're doing some
01:13:15
amazing stuff ecology is changing so
01:13:17
quickly and this is the thing like every
01:13:20
6 months that you you're around new
01:13:22
stuff is coming along um so yeah like
01:13:25
actually actually doing real well so now
01:13:28
I feel a lot of the time when I'm
01:13:29
feeling sick and I've got another you
01:13:31
know 11 weeks of that um it's because of
01:13:33
the Gema and so I do have to just keep
01:13:35
thinking this is good it means it's
01:13:36
working this is good it means it's
01:13:37
working another 11 weeks of that what
01:13:39
what do you mean so I've got another um
01:13:42
I'm halfway through the the first of the
01:13:44
next four rounds I've got four four four
01:13:46
more rounds to gra counting one that man
01:13:47
and so sort of by the beginning of
01:13:49
November the um I'll be done with the
01:13:51
worst of the chemo stuff and then it's
01:13:52
just the other thing to the imun and
01:13:55
hopefully the hauma which don't have all
01:13:57
the side effects of chemotherapy well
01:13:59
you I mean you you know the man sitting
01:14:01
in front of me now you look remarkably
01:14:03
healthy yeah like I feel when I'm not
01:14:06
having chos the really bad chemo side
01:14:09
effects I actually feel much better than
01:14:10
I did before so I don't have the same
01:14:11
symptoms that I did before um and all
01:14:13
that kind of stuff and that's part of
01:14:15
the problem is that now I just get bored
01:14:17
because when you get to a few good days
01:14:19
I instantly get bored because I'm just
01:14:21
sitting around um but it's hard to kind
01:14:23
of commit to doing anything too much
01:14:25
because you know there are going to be
01:14:26
weeks where you don't feel good um but
01:14:29
you know I get to hang out with Nelly a
01:14:31
lot and we see friends a lot and that's
01:14:33
kind of nice like I people come over and
01:14:34
you have coffee and chat in the
01:14:35
afternoon and that's not something I did
01:14:37
before um so there's lots of you know
01:14:39
there are lots of good things about it
01:14:40
really my hair doesn't grow random but
01:14:43
it hasn't fallen out it hasn't fallen
01:14:45
out which is good I'm pleased about that
01:14:47
um but it doesn't grow like got a
01:14:48
haircut just the other day and that was
01:14:49
the first one of four months and i'
01:14:51
usually get them on every every 6 weeks
01:14:54
so the turbo cans is definitely bad for
01:14:57
barers barers going man terrible what's
01:15:00
happening with the haircuts everyone's
01:15:01
got the turbo cancer from the vaccines
01:15:02
and the hair doesn't grow yeah um I had
01:15:05
this uh woman on the the podcast earlier
01:15:07
this year called Tracy Hickman who um
01:15:09
was very sick with cancer and she chose
01:15:11
to um die on on a certain date and um
01:15:14
everything went exactly as she as she
01:15:16
had hoped which is just wonderful um
01:15:20
yeah have have you thought about that
01:15:21
like if you got really sick or unwell
01:15:23
would you I think um
01:15:25
what what you don't want to be is a
01:15:26
burden to the people around you but like
01:15:28
basically I I I'm not
01:15:31
uh no I wouldn't do that like I'm I'm
01:15:34
here and I'm going to stay here and I'm
01:15:37
doing whatever the hell I can no matter
01:15:39
how sick it makes me because um you know
01:15:42
cuz
01:15:43
like I want to be every second of that I
01:15:46
can get with Natalie is like that's a
01:15:48
one for me so I'm I can't imagine ever
01:15:51
getting to the point and it's different
01:15:53
for everyone and people can make their
01:15:54
own decisions I think that's all good um
01:15:56
it's just not going to be me I'm going
01:15:58
to be like kicking away kicking away
01:16:00
kicking away I happy to hear that [ __ ]
01:16:03
you love Natalie oh my God yeah yeah
01:16:05
yeah I really do like really do um and
01:16:08
we had a we got married we had this
01:16:10
really lovely wedding uh and so it was
01:16:12
kind of weird that it was six months
01:16:13
almost 6 months the day that I sort of
01:16:16
got married that we got this diagnosis
01:16:18
so yeah I really do like it's like um
01:16:21
and we kind of meet at just the right
01:16:22
time in our lives because if we'd met
01:16:25
earlier I don't know that it kind of
01:16:27
would work out like I was kind of quiet
01:16:28
nerdy and she was like a super you know
01:16:31
popular party person that's all about
01:16:32
that timing isn't it yeah yeah and so
01:16:34
it's like it's the right time and now
01:16:35
we've got at least five kids who are all
01:16:37
awesome and we we've got you know the
01:16:41
plan is to get old and gray together
01:16:43
well already gray just to get older um
01:16:47
hey I put on Instagram that you're
01:16:48
coming over there's a bunch of questions
01:16:50
here um Nigel spoke again as I said at
01:16:53
the beginning most of them were like
01:16:55
just people just saying yeah how much
01:16:56
love they've got for you and the value
01:16:58
you've brought to their life uh [ __ ]
01:17:01
spoke at my work a few years ago one
01:17:02
thing that stood out and changed my life
01:17:05
was how to allocate time and has
01:17:06
detailed exercise and working out how
01:17:08
much of your time Lear to spend on must
01:17:10
do things like sleeping eating cleaning
01:17:11
yeah and then what time is left for the
01:17:13
things you want to do um I'd like to
01:17:15
know has his perspective changed since
01:17:17
the cancer diagnosis yeah well no uh in
01:17:20
the sense that I still believe all of
01:17:22
those things I just believe them and
01:17:23
live them a lot more now um
01:17:25
and so um yeah yeah I I like time now is
01:17:31
I really think about that and I I'll
01:17:33
think about that cuz cuz for me like
01:17:36
it's not unless some wonder drug comes
01:17:38
like it's not curable it's going to be
01:17:39
manage and maintain it and keep going um
01:17:43
and so I really think about how I'm I me
01:17:45
the nice thing about having cancer is
01:17:46
you can do whatever the [ __ ] you want
01:17:48
like I can say I'm tired going for a nap
01:17:50
now and just get up and leave the room
01:17:52
it's like people come over can we come
01:17:54
and visit
01:17:55
no or should we leave no you shouldn't
01:17:58
leave you have to stay because I've got
01:17:59
cancer I want to talk to people um so so
01:18:03
there that but I do think like you know
01:18:06
I I when I eventually get back into it
01:18:08
there's just some things I won't do so
01:18:10
like I a lot of my time before this was
01:18:13
I travel a lot you have to go away the
01:18:15
night before and time away for a few
01:18:17
days um we've kind of decided that I'm
01:18:19
really not going to do that very much at
01:18:20
all and if I do go away we'll both go
01:18:21
away together and go and hang out in the
01:18:23
place and do the thing and so so I do
01:18:26
think a lot more about that and and it's
01:18:27
it is that idea that like we don't think
01:18:29
about dying we're all we're all dying
01:18:31
some of us are just closer to it than
01:18:33
others and um some of us it'll be by
01:18:35
accident some of some of us It Be by
01:18:37
Illness but um you do really have to
01:18:40
think about okay if that happened to me
01:18:42
like if and lots of people think man I'm
01:18:44
glad I'm not him and that's a good thing
01:18:46
I'm glad it's not you too I wouldn't
01:18:48
wish this on anyone um but you should
01:18:50
think but what if it was me if it was me
01:18:54
do I have my legal [ __ ] in order do I
01:18:56
have insurance like will my family be
01:18:58
all right what are the protections I've
01:19:00
got in place for them um and who am I
01:19:02
spending time with and how am I doing it
01:19:04
like so I would do a lot of kind of
01:19:05
after dinner speaking um and you go
01:19:08
along you have dinner do you speech and
01:19:10
stay the night um now I'm I'm I'm not
01:19:12
going to stay for the night I'm going to
01:19:13
go along I'm going to do my thing and
01:19:15
then I'm going to high tell it out there
01:19:16
and go home and be with family because
01:19:18
that's kind of that's practicing what I
01:19:19
preach so yeah I think about it but I I
01:19:22
really think about it now yeah someone
01:19:24
said um are there any uh lessons he's
01:19:26
learned um from the diagnosis that was
01:19:28
he realized earlier in life um no no
01:19:33
actually they haven't been really what
01:19:35
what's been interesting is you know cuz
01:19:38
I do talk a lot about kind of resilience
01:19:39
and all that sort of stuff
01:19:42
um but I've never like really been
01:19:44
tested and there's something about when
01:19:46
a guy says you'll be dead in maybe in 6
01:19:48
months M no don't be with me that's my
01:19:51
little app saying take some stuff no got
01:19:53
cancer I don't have to it should do it
01:19:55
doesn't make sense yeah you need a break
01:19:58
no no no I'm good um but yeah so so um
01:20:02
and I complet G my brain what the hell
01:20:03
was I saying then something um oh like
01:20:06
lessons since the diagnosis that no so I
01:20:09
haven't I haven't changed anything that
01:20:11
I thought but I've like I've really had
01:20:12
to really kind of double down and focus
01:20:15
on how I apply it and see if those
01:20:17
things do actually work and it turns out
01:20:19
when you're facing like some super big
01:20:21
stuff like you could die um it works
01:20:24
like it does work it's the that's the
01:20:26
the thing that's got me through is um
01:20:28
just having those basic principles that
01:20:30
when I don't know what to do I fall back
01:20:31
on those things I feel terrible what am
01:20:34
I going to do do something nice for
01:20:35
someone else I feel I feel lost and
01:20:37
depressed and hopeless what what can you
01:20:39
control right now I can't control the
01:20:41
future but I can Pat the dog okay let's
01:20:43
do that yeah it seems like you're very
01:20:45
optimistic now but there must have been
01:20:47
like a period of there where where you
01:20:48
were sort of staring death in the face
01:20:50
um any big surprises about confronting
01:20:52
death um see no I'm not scared to die at
01:20:55
all like I don't what I don't want the
01:20:57
thing that frightens me the thing I
01:20:58
don't like thinking about is is is
01:21:01
leaving natal alone but I'm not scared
01:21:04
of dying because it's like I'm not I'm
01:21:06
not a deeply kind of spiritual person
01:21:07
like a little bit of wooo is all right
01:21:09
like I meditate a little bit of woo woo
01:21:10
on top of that that's good but um I'm
01:21:13
not a deeply spiritual person so it's
01:21:15
like I go to sleep every night and I
01:21:16
sleep for 8 hours a night and I don't I
01:21:18
wasn't I don't remember it I wasn't here
01:21:20
for the first you know 17 something
01:21:23
billion years of the this and I'm not
01:21:26
feeling traumatized about that so I know
01:21:28
that actually for me I've got the easy
01:21:30
part I'm either living and getting
01:21:32
better and going on for a long time or
01:21:34
it takes a turn and it goes bad and I
01:21:36
die if that happens it'll be the people
01:21:38
around me that have to carry that
01:21:40
because the process of dying itself that
01:21:42
doesn't frighten me the idea of being
01:21:43
dead it doesn't frighten me I don't
01:21:45
think I'm going to get up there and you
01:21:47
know someone's going to cast me down
01:21:49
probably the antix will be up there do
01:21:53
you do you yeah what do you think
01:21:54
happens when you die do you think
01:21:55
there's an afterlife or anything I'm
01:21:57
just a really pragmatic biological no I
01:21:59
think that we're biological beings we're
01:22:00
made of bits of stars from you know the
01:22:03
Big Bang 17 billion years ago and what
01:22:05
happens is you know you come from it you
01:22:07
go back to that and so now I don't think
01:22:09
that I don't have this idea that
01:22:10
there'll be some you know it'd be cool
01:22:12
if it was you know like if a there nice
01:22:15
idea um I just don't actually don't
01:22:18
actually believe it yeah I'm I'm much
01:22:20
the same the Steven Hawking Theory we're
01:22:23
like a computer and you geted and that's
01:22:26
it happens every night like you go to
01:22:27
sleep and you're not thinking that was
01:22:30
terrible no you're just asleep and if
01:22:32
you don't remember your dreams then
01:22:33
there there's a whole period of where
01:22:35
essentially you didn't exist in your own
01:22:37
Consciousness for that period of time
01:22:39
and so the idea that that could extend
01:22:41
longer it's like well that won't be that
01:22:43
I won't have to be the the that the the
01:22:48
that will be born by the people around
01:22:49
me and the people that care about me and
01:22:50
that's the but that I don't like why um
01:22:53
why is your big concerned about leaving
01:22:55
Natalie uh cuz cuz just the whole little
01:22:59
just ha I hate the idea of her being
01:23:01
alone when she won't be she's got lots
01:23:03
of friends and stuff but I don't like
01:23:05
the idea of of not being there of her
01:23:07
missing me and not being able to help
01:23:09
and all of that so that's the that's the
01:23:11
that's the one bit of all of this that
01:23:13
is the that's the intolerably painful
01:23:16
part of it for me
01:23:18
um yeah and any
01:23:23
fomo no I've I've I've that's what it
01:23:25
would be ar if I was in your your your
01:23:27
shoes that's what it would be for me it'
01:23:29
be the you know F about yeah the stuff
01:23:31
that I'm not going to get to see there
01:23:33
there's all of that like there there's
01:23:35
fear the there is all of that um but
01:23:38
again like I'm I don't lucky right word
01:23:41
but like you know all of the kids are
01:23:43
pretty much older and people and in
01:23:46
their life and that's the thing about
01:23:48
like if if if you're a parent if you're
01:23:50
lucky you don't get to see how it ends
01:23:52
for your kids and so that's something
01:23:54
everyone has to kind of deal with my dad
01:23:55
died
01:23:57
um 20 something years ago and U yeah
01:24:00
Bell cancer right yeah it was Bell
01:24:02
cancer and so we just had you know my
01:24:03
oldest was just a little guy then and
01:24:06
um and my my second one I've been born
01:24:10
he was just like a tiny little baby and
01:24:12
so Dad missed all of this stuff since
01:24:15
then that he would have enjoyed and all
01:24:17
his time M but it's like that's the way
01:24:20
that things kind of sometimes happen um
01:24:23
someone has to go first it's like that's
01:24:25
how it goes yeah yeah um do do you have
01:24:29
like a backet list or anything like that
01:24:31
I mean time time's like running out for
01:24:33
all of us but um I suppose a diagnosis
01:24:35
like this crystallizes things a bit I've
01:24:37
been where I've been really fortunate in
01:24:39
life is that pretty much everything that
01:24:41
I've wanted to do I've done so like when
01:24:44
I was little I wanted to publish a book
01:24:45
I did that and many times many times and
01:24:48
wanted to go to the Antarctic and I did
01:24:49
that and that's a pretty miraculous
01:24:51
thing so and I've you know my oldest is
01:24:53
really into traveling to adventurous and
01:24:55
strange places and so um I've been to
01:24:58
some pretty
01:25:00
amazing I've you know traveling through
01:25:03
Iran and um we went to this thing called
01:25:05
B castle and it always involves walking
01:25:08
up some massive bloody Hill and um like
01:25:12
600 steps then walking way up into the
01:25:15
back of Beyond of these mountains in
01:25:17
Iran and then you but you come to this
01:25:18
bit where you come through this little
01:25:20
cutting and it's like a scene from Lord
01:25:21
of the Rings this
01:25:22
abandoned castle ped on The Cliff face
01:25:25
and so I've done all of that I've jumped
01:25:27
out of planes tell's mean I've got to do
01:25:30
I've jumped out of planes I've got just
01:25:34
so there's nothing there's nothing I
01:25:36
have on my buet list my list now is just
01:25:38
about time with people that I care about
01:25:39
I I don't think a I wish I'd gone to
01:25:41
there because I don't you know I mean
01:25:42
there are places in the world I haven't
01:25:43
been to but it's like I don't I don't
01:25:45
feel that you know I can go or not go it
01:25:47
doesn't really doesn't Google
01:25:49
Images um what about regrets any regrets
01:25:52
um
01:25:54
yeah I mean I think most people I think
01:25:56
most people do like I wish I'd known
01:25:57
earlier in life I wish I worked out
01:25:59
earlier in life that actually you just
01:26:02
you and just relax into that like I was
01:26:05
I've always been quite I was quite shy
01:26:06
as a kid uh and as an adolescent I was
01:26:10
more of a kind of an introvert and stuff
01:26:12
and so I've always kind
01:26:14
of oh I wish I and you can never know
01:26:18
this CU that's part of the process but I
01:26:20
wish I'd kind of known like you're just
01:26:21
you and that's enough like it's fine
01:26:23
just relax with that that would have
01:26:24
made things a lot easier I think a lot
01:26:26
of that just comes with um AJ you sort
01:26:28
of grow onto yourself yeah just realize
01:26:30
what's important well you have to
01:26:31
because like oh [ __ ] I'm not changing
01:26:32
like it's just this like oh [ __ ] yeah um
01:26:36
and yeah so I think you do I think you
01:26:38
do but it'd be it'd be nice if I could
01:26:39
have known that earlier but no one does
01:26:41
cuz that's what you work out I wish I'd
01:26:43
there are times I think I'd done been
01:26:45
more doing work like I missed my Dad's
01:26:47
60th because I was
01:26:50
working we took these ades off into on
01:26:52
these 10day Wilderness programs I was
01:26:54
doing one of those it's that kind of
01:26:56
stuff like I think some my prioritizing
01:26:58
has been a bit wrong yeah
01:27:00
um but you know no yeah like AR yeah a
01:27:06
few but too few to mention yeah it's
01:27:08
like there's no point cuz like everyone
01:27:10
messes things up and of course there are
01:27:12
things I could go back and do them
01:27:13
differently but all of the I just think
01:27:15
it all leads to kind of where you are
01:27:17
there's nothing there's nothing I'd go
01:27:18
back and undo because that's led to
01:27:21
where I am now and actually apart from
01:27:25
pretty happy with Yeah well yeah and
01:27:28
yeah [ __ ] up it's The Human
01:27:30
Experience isn't it it really is it's
01:27:31
like that's where you learn the mist and
01:27:33
it's where I've always learn to M like
01:27:34
you [ __ ] things up you make mistakes you
01:27:36
get things wrong um so oh that was that
01:27:38
wasn't pretty smart what about Legacy is
01:27:40
Legacy something you've given much
01:27:41
thought to or anything no cuz it's like
01:27:43
I don't care we
01:27:44
did no you know what like no I don't
01:27:49
know I feel like it's an ego thing like
01:27:51
just no one wants to be forgotten right
01:27:53
yeah I'm comfortable with the fact that
01:27:55
I'll be completely forgotten it's like
01:27:56
in a 100 years like no one's going to
01:27:58
know who any of us were like there's the
01:28:00
Shakespeare and those sorts of people
01:28:02
will know who they were but for the rest
01:28:04
of us no one's going to know um it's a
01:28:06
funny thing isn't it even like the most
01:28:08
famous person in the world say Taylor SW
01:28:09
500 years from now no one's going to
01:28:11
know and like David Boe you know it's
01:28:13
like David Boe like who died of cancer
01:28:17
it's like even if you're David Bowie you
01:28:19
die even Bowie dies if Bowie dies we're
01:28:22
all there's no hope for any of us cuz if
01:28:24
anyone was going to not it' be him but
01:28:26
yeah no one gets out alive no um are you
01:28:29
proud of
01:28:30
yourself um I'm I'm proud of things that
01:28:33
I've done and I'm proud of things I've
01:28:35
done and I'm also conscious of the fact
01:28:37
that
01:28:38
I'm it's always tempered with the idea
01:28:42
that these are things I've done with
01:28:43
other people and it's not false humility
01:28:45
or modesty or anything like that it's
01:28:46
just the freaking truth like everything
01:28:48
I've ever done that's been of any Worth
01:28:51
or good at all has been done with other
01:28:54
people it's not all just me and so
01:28:57
because you write the book and your
01:28:58
name's on the front and you present the
01:28:59
TV show and say you're the face that
01:29:01
people see there is that tendency for
01:29:04
people to see it as being your thing but
01:29:06
I'm I'm hugely aware that it's not like
01:29:09
it's I've I've worked a lot with this
01:29:11
guy Mitchell Haws and aan Conor who's um
01:29:15
Mitch's a director and A's a producer
01:29:17
and like they just freaking Geniuses and
01:29:19
they're amazingly good at what they do
01:29:20
and so my success in TV was off the back
01:29:24
of everyone I do think and radar said to
01:29:27
radar said this once that you know he
01:29:29
said don't [ __ ] this up because if we do
01:29:31
the only one that doesn't work again as
01:29:32
me you know presenters get xed everyone
01:29:35
else keeps going yeah but this has been
01:29:38
great this has been so much fun so this
01:29:41
has been like 90 minutes is is this um
01:29:43
exhausting for you or has this been
01:29:45
cathartic is it just no it's not
01:29:47
exhausting all like it's a weird thing
01:29:48
to sit around and talk about yourself
01:29:50
because I don't generally like I because
01:29:52
I just don't um yeah I I know that I
01:29:55
listen to every podcast I could find
01:29:57
about you and it's um there's very very
01:29:59
few out there um so I was um just
01:30:02
incredibly grateful when you said you do
01:30:04
it well no it's like P it is like people
01:30:07
are all these lovely people have been
01:30:09
consumed and so I do want to kind of let
01:30:10
people know that I'm doing all right and
01:30:12
I do appreciate the um really appreciate
01:30:16
the nice things that people have seen um
01:30:19
yes it's an outpouring of Love yeah it's
01:30:21
really nice and it it you know it does
01:30:24
make me think everybody that gets cancer
01:30:26
should get this from everyone because
01:30:28
it's really nice so it's it's about just
01:30:31
letting people know that actually I'm
01:30:32
doing all right and um and I do think
01:30:35
there are I kind of have some ideas of
01:30:37
some some I had a Booky idea this
01:30:40
morning
01:30:41
about some big ideas and principles of
01:30:43
things that kind of work and sharing
01:30:45
those with people because I think none
01:30:47
of them are mine they're all been around
01:30:48
for a long time but I just think there
01:30:49
are things so it's been like it's it's
01:30:52
interesting and it's and it's fun um
01:30:54
and it's it's like it's the one time you
01:30:56
can talk about yourself and it's like ah
01:30:58
this that's the purpose of it like if I
01:31:00
don't this is not going to work it makes
01:31:03
it a difficult podcast I noticed you um
01:31:05
um getting emotional there like has they
01:31:09
have you become more emotional with the
01:31:10
diagnosis like with I suppose like tears
01:31:12
of gratitude yeah like I it was I it's
01:31:15
really been lovely like the stuff that
01:31:17
people have said um and you do I think
01:31:22
you do become I remember d d would
01:31:25
talked about this like he would he found
01:31:26
himself crying over song lyrics and like
01:31:29
I I
01:31:31
I found myself doing that like I was
01:31:34
watching
01:31:35
vep I forget what something weirdly for
01:31:38
vep because nothing nice ever happens in
01:31:40
V something nice happened and I got
01:31:41
quite tearful over that and um and what
01:31:45
in V you know the show with um Julie L
01:31:48
dord she's the vice president sitcom
01:31:50
it's really great um and all the
01:31:52
characters are terrible people just
01:31:54
apart from Gary who's lovely all the
01:31:56
material um but there was something in
01:31:58
that that sort of made me uh a bit sort
01:31:59
of tearful so you do you do kind of I do
01:32:03
feel more that stuff I
01:32:05
mean I'm always been like I'm I don't
01:32:07
have an issue with kind of crying and
01:32:09
getting upset about stuff and getting
01:32:10
getting Rey over things because I think
01:32:12
that's all that's all good and it's part
01:32:13
of life um but you certainly I think the
01:32:16
chemo process and the cancer process and
01:32:19
re-evaluating things and thinking about
01:32:21
your life and how much time you've got
01:32:22
and how much more you want and you know
01:32:25
being exhausted and being happy and all
01:32:28
of that just see that was a chemo
01:32:30
thought that started as an idea that
01:32:33
started as a well-rounded idea and
01:32:35
halfway through it I completely lost it
01:32:37
and I
01:32:38
thought keep keep talking it'll come
01:32:40
back and then it didn't I thought no
01:32:42
it's just going to Trail off now and
01:32:43
that's exactly what it did yeah [ __ ] is
01:32:46
is there anything that we um we haven't
01:32:47
discussed today that you you wanted to
01:32:50
no I think just make sure everyone out
01:32:52
there that you um health insurance if
01:32:55
you can afford it if you can afford it
01:32:57
income protection if you can afford it
01:32:59
and life it feels like a luxury or it
01:33:02
feels like something that's a waste of
01:33:03
money and it is until you need it and
01:33:06
one in three people get freaking
01:33:08
cancered I'm not saying it to be doomy
01:33:10
and gloomy I'm just saying get your
01:33:12
Affairs in order and as much as you're
01:33:14
able to and the circumstances that
01:33:16
you've got make sure all that practical
01:33:18
stuff is sorted out like that's the most
01:33:20
if we if I hadn't done some of the
01:33:22
things i' done it would have been a
01:33:24
million times harder and I feel again
01:33:26
this is the iniquity of the health
01:33:28
system that there are a lot of people
01:33:30
who have got freaking a million times
01:33:32
harder than me because they're dealing
01:33:33
with not only the cancel and the
01:33:35
treatment stuff but not being able to
01:33:37
get access to some of those other drugs
01:33:38
and um just how do I pay the bills and
01:33:41
that was my first thought was like [ __ ]
01:33:44
how how do I pay the bills I had no idea
01:33:46
what we were at with insurance stuff and
01:33:48
so um I rang my guy Andy straight away
01:33:51
he was literally my first call
01:33:55
that's that's Bleak isn't it really but
01:33:57
it's a reality I guess um yeah God
01:34:00
selfless eh totally selfless um there
01:34:02
was a a friend of mine Fraser grw you
01:34:05
you met him in um May 2023 uh he's doing
01:34:08
a thing called the 10,000 dreams project
01:34:10
was going around filming filming a bunch
01:34:12
of people about their dreams can you
01:34:13
remember what you said to him in May
01:34:14
2023 no um your dream then was uh to
01:34:17
make the world a fearer place oh yeah
01:34:20
would it still be the same now uh yeah
01:34:23
it would be clearly I didn't achieve
01:34:24
that did I doesn't feel like that that's
01:34:26
gone so well I have to get a more
01:34:27
achievable one um uh no I mean I think I
01:34:32
think it's really easy to get lost in
01:34:33
the fact the world's [ __ ] and
01:34:35
everyone's crazy and I think that since
01:34:37
the pandemic people are sort of there's
01:34:40
an element of people that are kind of
01:34:41
angry like there's an angry component to
01:34:44
that whole antia anti iPhone quite
01:34:47
disturbing and a bit sad because they
01:34:49
feel obviously put upon um but actually
01:34:54
if you look at the statistics the world
01:34:56
is a gentler place than it's ever been
01:34:58
there are there are less Wars you're
01:35:00
less likely to die by violence you're
01:35:02
less likely to be the victim of a
01:35:03
violent crime um all of these things are
01:35:05
true it just doesn't feel true it feels
01:35:07
like the world's just going to hell
01:35:09
because we got Trump and we got people
01:35:11
yelling stuff and crazy things are
01:35:13
happening all over the place but
01:35:14
actually it's not the world's actually
01:35:17
pretty nice and and when people are
01:35:20
having trouble people help them and so I
01:35:24
kind of I just think we just need to
01:35:26
kind of stay focused on the fact that
01:35:28
we're far from perfect and things are
01:35:30
still pretty messed up but we're getting
01:35:32
better we're doing our best we're
01:35:33
chugging along you know climate change
01:35:36
oh yeah that's a thing but someone
01:35:38
someone will work it out some right
01:35:40
that's what I'm Bing on as well smart
01:35:43
people do it the smart people do it
01:35:45
that's what every time I go this have
01:35:46
some fancy scan I always say to people
01:35:48
do scan man I'm so glad that people like
01:35:51
you were sitting around and inventing
01:35:54
machines and training the rest of us
01:35:56
we've just been watching Netflix and
01:35:57
eating chips and you guys have been
01:35:59
building these amazing machines and
01:36:00
training yourself I'm glad that you're
01:36:02
not like lazy like the rest of us and
01:36:04
it's true there are people just coming
01:36:06
up with Solutions we'll solve it it's we
01:36:09
not going to
01:36:10
end oh I love that oh Nigel L thank you
01:36:13
so much you are an absolute National
01:36:17
Treasure
01:36:18
um can we do let's do a followup like 2
01:36:21
or 3 years from now yeah absolutely
01:36:22
we'll do a follow 2 three years from now
01:36:24
yeah that' be good be good I'm sure we'
01:36:25
learned some more things 2 or 3 years
01:36:27
from now um I look I look forward to
01:36:29
that yeah oh I appreciate you so much
01:36:31
and on behalf of um everyone in New
01:36:33
Zealand thank you so much oh thank you D
01:36:35
it's been fun I've enjoyed it
01:36:37
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01:36:51
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