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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New
00:00:06
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:08
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:12
hole in one in
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it again. Hey Finn, how's the
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performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:00:21
here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:00:24
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:00:26
Maximize. Generate. putting performance
00:00:29
first.
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>> Nigel Ladder, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thank you, Donald. It's it's great to be
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here.
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>> I the it is um such an honor for me. I
00:00:43
was saying to you just a couple of
00:00:44
seconds ago like you're a white whale
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guest for me. This is like a dream guest
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and even more so I think given the the
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current circumstances.
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>> Well, I it's it's a good day out for me
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because my days now mostly staying at
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home. So actually getting to come out
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and do stuff is kind of cool. Uh and uh
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I've you know I've watched a few of your
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podcasts and stuff and so it's yeah it's
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cool. It's cool cool being here. It
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still seems odd to me that anybody would
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want to chat to me about stuff that I've
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done cuz I just think well I just did
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stuff you know. So this is
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>> but you've done um like you've done so I
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I put on Instagram that you were coming
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in and did anyone have any questions and
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um to be honest like 80% of it was just
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like well wishes and just people saying
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>> people have been people are super nice.
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Do you know what I It's like every time
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you um I've always had I should stop
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turning away from the microphone,
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shouldn't I? I I've always been really
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confident in the fundamental kind of
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goodness of people because they just
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are. And so people have been lovely.
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Like I've had some lovely messages of uh
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support and stuff like that.
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The bit that some of us funny the antiax
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people. I I found a thread just because
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I'm bored. I found a thread on Reddit
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where they were debating is it him
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getting his just desserts now that he's
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got turbo cancer. Have you heard about
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turbo cancer? No. Comes from the
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vaccine. Is he getting his just desserts
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now because he was one of the people
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advocating for vaccines? And some people
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were saying, "Yeah, it's totally fair.
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You should have." Other people saying,
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"Well, it's a little bit harsh. It's
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like so that's I find that hilarious."
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So apparently I've got the turbo cancer.
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>> Turbo. Well, it sounds really dramatic.
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>> It sounds quite cool. Um, I'm sure we
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can answer it. No.
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>> Hey, so um, we're recording this a few
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days, um, before your your next
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birthday. You've got a birthday next
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week.
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>> No,
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>> no,
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>> no.
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>> Bloody Wikipedia.
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>> No.
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>> No. I don't believe anything really. Uh,
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July is
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>> Oh, really? Yeah.
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>> Oh, well, I [ __ ] that one up
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completely.
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>> Yeah,
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>> I'll take it.
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>> Well, I guess in light of Well, I
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thought it was your birthday next week,
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but I suppose when you had your last
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birthday in July, like you you um were
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aware of the cancer then. Um, I was
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going to say, but it was only fairly
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recently. So, it's only been 4 months
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that I've been on this particular road,
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>> right?
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>> Uh, so yeah, the early part of the year
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was just trucking along, you know,
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working, working, working, trucking
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along, and then you get to a Monday
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morning and it all just changes.
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>> So, it's only been four months. So, so
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four months ago, you got told you've got
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between 6 months and a year to live.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. And that was that was um
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that was that was a we I'd had the thing
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with the the um in the GI person, the
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gastro person. Uh and so this was the
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meeting with the surgeon the next day
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and to be fair he was this lovely man
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like he was a really lovely man and cuz
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he said you've got it's it's incurable
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like it's inoperable. We can't take it
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out. And so you know you you want to
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know a number. So we just said, "Look,
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just tell us a number." And um he went
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like, "I really don't like doing that
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cuz it's hard to put a number on stuff."
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And and my partner, my wife, who's also
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a psychologist, said, "Look, we're
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psychologist. We can handle it. Just
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just just give us a number." And then he
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said this 6 to 12 months. And it's like
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I remember it's been punched in the
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brain. I remember thinking, "Could you
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give me another number?" Like, "Have you
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got any other ones?
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>> Is it a negotiable?
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>> That's your first offer. Let's let's
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push out." Since then, it's all changed
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since then because I've now um you enter
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oncology and that's a just this winding
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path of lots of options. And so,
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actually, it's been going uh pretty
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well. Like, I'm four months into chemo.
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I've had a number of lucky breaks. Like,
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I'm I've got the right I've got a really
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good tumor type. It's fast growing,
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which is good because when it divides,
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that's when it can kind of get got at.
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Uh I can take her, which is um a
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targeted therapy. uh and I can also do
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imunotherapy which so the combination of
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kind of chemo and these two sorts of uh
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other drugs are really good for me. So
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now it's very optimistic. Now I'm
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looking forward to being here for a long
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time.
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>> So you're living not dying.
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>> Yeah. Like I just don't like for the
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first few days it felt like I was dying,
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you know, cuz it was just shock and
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trauma and all of the rest of that
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stuff. And I remember the day that we
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got told that um like I remember going
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we left the place we were standing
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outside and I just like I literally had
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no idea what to do in that moment. I
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thought I don't know what to do or where
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to go. And so fortunately a friend was
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there uh and I just thought I can make a
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freaking decision. I thought we can't go
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home. I don't know why we just couldn't.
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Uh, and so we went to her place and then
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um we Yeah, we went there and started
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calling people. It was very very grim.
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And uh
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>> why why couldn't you go home?
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>> I just in my head it was like no can't
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do that yet. Like cuz the the kids were
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at home and I thought I like I need to
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get my [ __ ] together. Like we can't we
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can't be walking into the in the middle
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of this. Like that's so so it was just
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let's avoid that for a bit. So that
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night we went to a hotel and just I ate
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lots of ice cream and cried. And then
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from the next day it got better cuz from
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the next day we started to see the
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oncologist and um who's my new favorite
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guy like this really smart guy. Um and
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and then options start opening up and
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things start improving. So it went from
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the bleakest of the bleak to actually
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now it it's going forward. And it's been
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good learning because you spend your
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whole I spent people a long time telling
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people how to be resilient. It's like,
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okay, so let's practice some of those
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things now.
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>> Yeah. I um I watched a TED talk on
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YouTube that you did um and it just one
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one of the key messages in there was um
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it could always be worse.
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>> Yeah. Yeah, it can. And um
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>> how how for you?
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>> Well, the 6 to 12 months could be true.
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That gives me till November, you know. I
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mean, imagine if you ask, "How long have
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I got?" And he went about I'd say 25 30
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minutes. like
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um no like it can always be worse. And
00:06:46
so I I do I think that um one of the
00:06:49
things I've kind of always believed is
00:06:51
that basically life is just a big bus
00:06:53
and you're either going to be a
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passenger or you're going to drive the
00:06:56
bus. And so you have to you have to
00:06:57
drive the bus. You have to kind of take
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charge of the things that are happening
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to you. Um and so so kind of part of my
00:07:04
thinking in those initial days was just
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like your job now is to make it easier
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on the people around you. like that's
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that's something I can do and that
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there's a lot of things I can't control
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but I can control how I am and how I am
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with the people around me
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>> and that that's uh it's like it's a
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really simple idea but it's pretty
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powerful.
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>> Easier said than done though because you
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know you tend to save your your worst
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behavior for the people that you love
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the most and you'd have every right to
00:07:29
be like you know a [ __ ] pain in the
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ass at that particular point. Well, and
00:07:33
it's not to say that I don't get kind of
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mopy and feel a bit sorry for myself
00:07:36
during some of the days of um the chemo
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stuff, but I just work really it's like
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wallowing is
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it's like the world at the moment's in
00:07:47
this weird space where you're
00:07:51
everything
00:07:52
kind of this is a toxic masculinity,
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right? and and toughing it out is bad
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and blah, but actually sometimes
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toughing it out and just hardening the
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[ __ ] up is the most important thing to
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do. And it's like
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>> I if I really care about the people
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around me, I can try to make their lives
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easier. And when I do that, when I do
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this act of generosity towards other
00:08:13
people, it makes me feel better.
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Whenever I whenever I behave like an
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[ __ ] or I do something that's selfish
00:08:18
or I do something that's unkind, it
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doesn't even in the moment when you feel
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justified in doing it, it's never made
00:08:24
me feel good. The stuff that makes me
00:08:26
feel good is when you're being generous
00:08:28
and helping the people around you. And
00:08:30
so really early on I just decided that
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I'm just going to do everything I can to
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make it easier for the people around me
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rather than harder. And it's just
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>> it just works. It does make life easier.
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>> It's it's Yeah, it's common sense. Like
00:08:43
if I ever um you see the red mist and
00:08:45
lose my call at a stranger or someone I
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know, I feel bad about it for hours
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afterwards. Like it just doesn't it
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doesn't make you feel good.
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>> Um it even sometimes you feel really
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justified in doing it
00:08:56
>> cuz the other person was being a
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complete dick,
00:08:59
>> but it's just never worked. And the only
00:09:01
thing that's ever worked for me is
00:09:04
stepping back from that and thinking,
00:09:05
okay, what's something kind I can do for
00:09:07
this person who's being an [ __ ] right
00:09:08
now? Because no one like no one's born
00:09:11
an [ __ ] Well, there's that's not I
00:09:14
think there a small percentage of people
00:09:15
who literally are. Everyone else is just
00:09:17
a bit tangled up and most people are
00:09:20
doing things cuz they're even the
00:09:22
antivax people that are debating whether
00:09:24
or not I deserve turbo cancer. Those
00:09:26
guys like
00:09:29
they're still that's coming from a place
00:09:31
of they're really they think this
00:09:33
harmful thing was done to the world and
00:09:35
so they're trying to speak out against
00:09:36
it. Like I understand why they're doing
00:09:38
it. I just some of it I just find a bit
00:09:41
hilarious. So yeah, I think the world's
00:09:45
everyone's supposed to feel good about
00:09:47
everything all the time and you're never
00:09:49
supposed to just tough it out. Well,
00:09:51
actually sometimes that's the best thing
00:09:53
to do. Like what else are you going to
00:09:55
do? Fall on the ground and and kind of
00:09:57
whimper. And that's I've done a little
00:09:59
I've done that, too.
00:10:00
>> But you can't do that all the time. You
00:10:01
have to stand up and and push on.
00:10:06
>> And you you definitely are. So Oh, yeah.
00:10:08
So yeah. So, the the day you found out,
00:10:10
you spend the night in the hotel eating
00:10:12
the ice cream. Um,
00:10:13
>> the ice cream
00:10:14
>> because the kids are at home. You've got
00:10:15
two kids, two sons in their 20s.
00:10:17
>> So, so I've got a I've got five in
00:10:19
total. Uh, there's a a girl and a boy
00:10:22
and then a girl, sorry, a boy and a girl
00:10:26
and a boy. So,
00:10:27
>> is it like a blended situation?
00:10:28
>> Yeah, a blended situation. So, the the
00:10:30
two oldest are mine and then um and then
00:10:33
Natalie and I we sort of co-parent the
00:10:36
her her three kids as well.
00:10:38
>> What are their ages? a little younger.
00:10:40
>> Uh but yeah, so they're kind of 18 uh 18
00:10:43
and 17 and uh 14. So we've got a great
00:10:47
lumbering 14-year-old in the house.
00:10:49
>> So are you rereading your books, you
00:10:51
know?
00:10:52
>> Well, I mean it helps having been there,
00:10:54
right? It's like and I understand boys
00:10:56
and boys are the best thing about boys
00:10:58
is you say, "How was your day?" And they
00:11:00
go, "Good." And that's it. We're all
00:11:02
done. Like that's the day wrapped up. Um
00:11:05
whereas girls, they talk a lot more
00:11:07
about stuff. And so you when you ask
00:11:08
them how the day is, you got to have a
00:11:10
chair and like a a drink of water, clear
00:11:14
the clear the afternoon.
00:11:15
>> So So did you guys um I mean they're all
00:11:18
ages where you can sort of I suppose
00:11:20
have adult conversations with them, but
00:11:22
did you is that what you did in the
00:11:23
hotel? You discussed how you were going
00:11:24
to message it the next day or
00:11:26
>> No, we kind of didn't do it in the
00:11:27
morning. Most of you just sat in the
00:11:28
hotel and cried and I ate ice cream. And
00:11:30
um the one thing I do regret is one of
00:11:32
the newspaper articles that came out
00:11:34
after I put my little video out said
00:11:35
that I went to a hotel and I scream and
00:11:37
cried. I saying no there was someone
00:11:40
else with me like I did seems slightly
00:11:42
less pathetic.
00:11:43
>> I know it seems a slightly pathetic
00:11:44
thing. What did you do? I went to a
00:11:45
hotel by myself. Checked in. Just sat
00:11:47
there crying in the middle of the room
00:11:48
eating ice cream. Um
00:11:50
>> if I read that I'd be like he was
00:11:51
definitely watching the hotel porn.
00:11:53
>> The ice cream's a distraction.
00:11:55
>> I know. So, so no, we we kind of the
00:11:59
next morning we kind of got our heads
00:12:01
around the fact that um
00:12:03
how we were going to talk to the kids
00:12:05
about all this stuff. And it does help
00:12:07
that we buy shrinks. So, it's like you
00:12:10
do have some things to fill back and
00:12:11
it's also irritating because you do have
00:12:13
to practice the things you've been
00:12:14
preaching and sometimes those things are
00:12:15
quite hard to practice.
00:12:16
>> Yeah. So, um September 5, 5:32 p.m.
00:12:20
That's when the video went live. Um
00:12:22
yeah.
00:12:23
>> Yeah. Why did you decide to do that now?
00:12:26
It's kind of the drive the bus thing.
00:12:27
So, actually you sent me I remember you
00:12:29
sent me an email a while ago about
00:12:30
coming on the podcast and at that point
00:12:31
I was thinking I'm going to do this but
00:12:34
I'm going to do this it wasn't the right
00:12:35
time then basically a couple of
00:12:37
journalists have been calling um asking
00:12:40
to write something about it and I
00:12:42
thought yeah I kind of want to
00:12:45
that I want to be in control of the
00:12:47
message and do it in the way that I want
00:12:48
it. I don't want to be talking to a
00:12:49
print journalist and have to worry about
00:12:51
how they write it and how it sounds. So,
00:12:54
and that's the great thing about social
00:12:56
media now. You can just make a little
00:12:57
video,
00:12:58
>> control the narrative.
00:12:58
>> Yeah. And say to people, "Hey, so this
00:13:00
is a thing." And then uh but people have
00:13:02
been super nice. Like it's I wish
00:13:04
everybody
00:13:06
>> I wish everyone that got cancer could
00:13:07
have all these people saying these super
00:13:09
nice things to them because people are
00:13:11
just really,
00:13:12
>> you know, just people just lovely.
00:13:14
People are nice.
00:13:14
>> Um yeah, I mean the there's thousands of
00:13:16
comments including I saw one from um
00:13:18
Sonia Yell who's Lord's mom um saying
00:13:21
you helped raise her kids. You know
00:13:23
what? I'm
00:13:23
>> which is awesome.
00:13:24
>> I'm I've been talking to lawyers. I need
00:13:26
a cut of the Lord. I played a role
00:13:28
there. I thought that was so hor
00:13:32
in some small maybe a large way I
00:13:36
contributed to Lord's
00:13:37
>> Yeah. No, I mean I mean this this
00:13:40
validation it's it's only um I mean it's
00:13:42
strange on the internet. Um but it still
00:13:44
must be incredibly humbling. It says a
00:13:46
lot about the impact you've had on
00:13:47
society over the last 30 odd years.
00:13:49
>> Yeah. I know it's it is really nice and
00:13:51
and particularly particularly over the
00:13:53
last little bit it it um it does it does
00:13:57
feel really nice when people say that
00:13:59
but there's always this thing in there
00:14:00
that like everything I've done has been
00:14:02
a part of teams and so if you're the
00:14:05
presenter on tally they think it's your
00:14:06
TV show and it's like no there's a whole
00:14:08
bunch of us made that stuff so it's like
00:14:11
it it's always that I always feel like
00:14:13
saying
00:14:14
>> that's really I'll let the other people
00:14:15
know who are part of making the stuff as
00:14:17
well cuz it's like everything I've done
00:14:18
has been part of a team. It's like it's
00:14:21
everything is everything's a
00:14:22
collaborative process.
00:14:23
>> Yeah. And um there's a book that you've
00:14:26
recommended called Life Hacks from the
00:14:28
Buddha.
00:14:28
>> Yeah.
00:14:29
>> Um yeah, that was the post you did after
00:14:31
the the video post announcing that you
00:14:33
had cancer.
00:14:34
>> Yeah. So Tony Tony Fernando, who's a
00:14:36
psychiatrist, wrote the book. It's a
00:14:37
really good book. Um and uh it's I kind
00:14:41
of expected it to be sort of the usual
00:14:43
self-helpy stuff, but Tony, as well as
00:14:45
being a psychiatrist and a really good
00:14:46
psychiatrist, he's also a Buddhist monk.
00:14:48
And so it's kind of he takes Buddhism
00:14:51
and talks about how you can apply that
00:14:54
to your life now. And you don't have to
00:14:56
think about Buddhism as a religion. And
00:14:58
in fact, the Buddha never really took a
00:14:59
position on it. People would say to him,
00:15:00
"So what's what happens after you die?"
00:15:03
And he went, "Look, don't worry about
00:15:04
that. Just focus on now." Um, so you
00:15:06
don't it's not it's not really a
00:15:07
religious thing. It's more just a it's a
00:15:08
it's a philosophy and a a series of kind
00:15:11
of ideas about
00:15:13
>> how to be that make you kind of suffer
00:15:17
less and make it easier to feel um to
00:15:20
feel kind of happier and content in
00:15:21
life. So I've always been a sort of a
00:15:23
closet Buddhist you know like I'm a bit
00:15:25
Buddhist not all the way like Tony in
00:15:28
the book he talks about how Buddhist
00:15:29
monks will if there's ants they'll scoot
00:15:31
them all up and take them outside. I had
00:15:33
a bunch of ants on the bench yesterday.
00:15:34
I just fly straight back.
00:15:37
You guys just know. So like
00:15:42
I I don't do the whole thing. And and
00:15:44
sometimes it's interesting. We're
00:15:45
talking about this the other day. My my
00:15:46
my my son said that sometimes um he was
00:15:50
talking about a project he had to do in
00:15:52
class and he didn't like the lecturer
00:15:53
and so he kind of he wanted to succeed
00:15:55
out of spite despite this guy.
00:15:58
>> Amazing. And sometimes spite's a good
00:16:00
little motivator, you know, like it's
00:16:02
not the healthiest, I guess, in some
00:16:04
ways, but it's like it's a it I've done
00:16:06
some things just the thing that
00:16:08
motivates me is out of spite. And it's
00:16:10
like it's not a very Buddhist thing to
00:16:12
do, but it works.
00:16:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. Use your haters as your
00:16:14
motivators. There's something to it.
00:16:16
>> Yeah. Absolutely.
00:16:17
>> Right. Um that's probably enough about
00:16:19
the the the cancer for now. We'll get
00:16:20
back to that later, but there's so much
00:16:21
um of the Nigel letter story to unpack.
00:16:23
So um born in Awamu 1967. Um I I heard
00:16:28
you say maybe on another podcast um you
00:16:30
described it as quote an interesting
00:16:31
place to grow up. What?
00:16:32
>> It was a [ __ ] place to grow up.
00:16:34
>> Was it why?
00:16:35
>> Omry is cool now, but it was a [ __ ]
00:16:37
place to grow up cuz it was like I I was
00:16:39
kind of growing up in the sort of late
00:16:41
'7s and ' 80s. So I was a teenager in
00:16:43
the 80s and I went to this um boys which
00:16:47
is like all boy schools of the 80s was a
00:16:49
toxic and shitty place. Um didn't wasn't
00:16:53
interested in sports at all. Um and at
00:16:57
at at White Boys in 1980s, if you got a
00:17:00
blazer, which is some, you know, a prize
00:17:02
from the school for um for rugby or
00:17:05
cricket or something, people
00:17:08
if you got one an academic blazer,
00:17:10
people beat you up cuz they thought you
00:17:11
were gay. Like that was sort of that was
00:17:13
our in 1980 in Omro. The way that we
00:17:16
thought you could tell someone was gay,
00:17:17
if they're smart, they're definitely
00:17:18
gay, which is like
00:17:20
you think it's like, so what?
00:17:23
heterosexual people was stupid. Like
00:17:24
that was the thing. So I I yeah I hated
00:17:27
Waki Boys when I went there. Um and I
00:17:30
just couldn't wait to get out of Omaru.
00:17:33
Now it's cool. Like now I'm You should
00:17:35
go and visit Omar. Now it's really cool.
00:17:36
They've got the steampunk stuff going
00:17:38
on. There's penguins and nice little
00:17:40
cafes and things. But yeah, back in the
00:17:42
80s I didn't like it at all.
00:17:44
>> It sounds similar to um to my school
00:17:47
experience. So I went to Palmer Boys
00:17:48
High like um mid 80s to 1990. Um got
00:17:53
called a [ __ ] every day.
00:17:55
>> Yeah. It was just and it wasn't any it
00:17:57
wasn't any particular school. That was
00:17:58
just kind of what happened. And
00:18:00
>> no one intervened. And you know, we
00:18:02
would practice hackers for the these
00:18:04
first 15 matches and the prefects would
00:18:07
scream and yell at you. And the weird
00:18:09
thing is I remember them like in my
00:18:11
memory. They were these [ __ ] huge
00:18:13
hulking gorillas screaming at us. And I
00:18:15
found an old school magazine and looked
00:18:17
back and they were just skinny little
00:18:18
teenage boys. But at the time,
00:18:20
>> but if they're older than you, I suppose
00:18:21
they have a size advantage. There's
00:18:22
nothing more more gratifying than being
00:18:24
like for me at least being 18, 19, 20
00:18:27
going out and seeing the guys from the
00:18:29
first 15 as adults now still wearing you
00:18:32
know still wearing their rugby shirt or
00:18:34
living on the other glory days of their
00:18:36
life.
00:18:36
>> I know. I know. I always kind of think
00:18:38
like if you're if you're if high
00:18:40
school's amazing that's not a good sign
00:18:42
>> if you don't want to peek at high
00:18:43
school.
00:18:44
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:44
>> So what what were you like as a what was
00:18:46
like as a kid? I I read you bought
00:18:47
yourself a typewriter at the age of 13.
00:18:49
So you you must have had a like a
00:18:50
creative creative side.
00:18:51
>> Yeah. like I wanted to write books. That
00:18:53
was the the the life plan for me was
00:18:55
writing novels. That's what I wanted to
00:18:56
do at that point. Um and um so yeah, I
00:19:00
was just like a I was always kind of I I
00:19:05
like I was the only seventh former not
00:19:06
made a prefect at the school like they
00:19:08
were third year six were becoming
00:19:10
prefect and that was a smart move like
00:19:12
cuz I would have been a disaster because
00:19:13
um I was just all anti-establishment. I
00:19:16
remember the um the governor general
00:19:18
came to a school prize giving to give
00:19:20
and I won a prize for English and so I
00:19:22
went to the a bookshop and got um Carl
00:19:25
Marx the first hundred years because I
00:19:28
know in my sort of school boy oh that
00:19:30
that'll put the wind up the governor
00:19:31
general marks and stuff um he just gave
00:19:34
it to me and shook my hand I've still
00:19:36
got it never read it was a stupid book I
00:19:38
should have got an aster
00:19:39
>> why um yeah were you were you just like
00:19:41
an angry angsty teen or what was it I
00:19:44
just it's like I just didn't I didn't
00:19:48
like bollocks and I just thought this is
00:19:50
all bollocks like I I got a detention
00:19:52
once cuz I wouldn't sing God save the
00:19:53
queen in assembly such a snot and I
00:19:57
remember Mr. Kissle, who was a lovely
00:19:58
man, he said, "What's the why won't
00:20:00
weren't you sing you're not singing God
00:20:02
Save the Queen ladder?" And I went,
00:20:03
"Well, no, cuz like she lives in a
00:20:05
palace and she's got like servant stuff.
00:20:06
We should sing God save the starving
00:20:09
little African kids." I didn't care
00:20:10
about the starving little African kids.
00:20:12
I was just being a dick.
00:20:14
So
00:20:15
>> why why were you being said to fire?
00:20:17
>> Um it just I don't know. It just seemed
00:20:18
like much more interesting to me than um
00:20:20
Well, that's my little beeper to tell me
00:20:22
to take stuff, but I've already taken
00:20:23
it, so I'll dismiss that. Um, I I just
00:20:26
kind of like the idea of poking a stick
00:20:28
into all that stuff and not taking it
00:20:29
too seriously.
00:20:30
>> Just questioning authority.
00:20:31
>> Yeah. I just thought, well, why why am I
00:20:32
singing God Save the Queen? Cuz I never
00:20:34
met her. I'm sure she's fine, but she
00:20:36
seems okay. Like, I don't think she
00:20:37
needs us to sing.
00:20:38
>> What What was What was that beeper? What
00:20:40
do you need to take?
00:20:40
>> Ah, see, now I'm such my life is so
00:20:43
different that uh I have to have an app
00:20:45
to tell me which pills to take when
00:20:46
because my day is a series of a series
00:20:49
of pills I take. Um, you know, so
00:20:51
there's the chemo drugs and there's
00:20:52
nauseous stuff and there's heart stuff
00:20:54
cuz I also discovered I've got a dicky
00:20:56
heart. It's like, come on. Cuz I start
00:20:59
looking at everything. Um, so I've I
00:21:02
take heart stuff now. I'm Yeah, I
00:21:05
>> So every every 3 hours, four hours.
00:21:07
Yeah, it's about every every 3 hours
00:21:10
there's a big there's a big pile in the
00:21:11
morning first thing and then there's
00:21:12
another lot about 10:00 and then there's
00:21:14
be another lot sort of 11:30 12 and then
00:21:17
more at three and then more at and it's
00:21:19
mostly just about keeping the nausea
00:21:20
under control because chemo gives you
00:21:21
nausea because it's basically chemo is
00:21:23
taking a blunt like it's a cheese grater
00:21:26
to all the fast dividing cells in your
00:21:28
body so you get all these weird symptoms
00:21:30
but again I'm lucky because I don't get
00:21:32
as many symptoms as a lot of other
00:21:34
people and I don't have them as extreme
00:21:35
so it's fine
00:21:38
You're so positive about things. Well,
00:21:40
>> I mean, I suppose you It's a choice,
00:21:42
isn't it? I suppose you you have to be,
00:21:43
but it' be I mean, it'd be
00:21:44
understandable and easy to have a bit of
00:21:46
self-pity.
00:21:47
>> Yeah. And I do have that like there are
00:21:48
there are definitely times like there
00:21:49
are days when um I've got like at the
00:21:52
moment about another 11 weeks of chemo
00:21:54
to go and there are days when you just
00:21:56
lie there and just go, "Oh man, this
00:21:58
sucks." Um but
00:22:02
it yeah I just kind of I always think um
00:22:05
it'll be fine and if it's if it's not
00:22:07
deal with it when you get there and so
00:22:10
>> how I kind of reframe all the symptom
00:22:12
stuff is like it's good.
00:22:14
>> It's interesting I a special forces guy
00:22:17
we watched a video years ago but a
00:22:19
special forces guy saying you know if
00:22:20
you want to improve your resilience you
00:22:22
just it's just you can do that with one
00:22:23
word whatever happens you just say good.
00:22:26
So, you're feeling sick, good, that
00:22:28
means it's working. You know, you're
00:22:29
feeling uh really ground down and done.
00:22:31
Good. That means it's really working. It
00:22:33
doesn't work all the time, but I try and
00:22:35
practice that a lot cuz it's just
00:22:37
better, easier.
00:22:39
>> [ __ ] This I mean, we've only been going
00:22:41
20 minutes. There's already been so many
00:22:42
good takeaways. You just dispense you
00:22:44
dispense advice without even knowing it.
00:22:47
Well, the thing is
00:22:50
unlike look where I've been lucky is
00:22:51
that I've got to spend basically my
00:22:53
entire life reading about stuff that
00:22:56
helps people being kind of kneede at
00:22:59
helping people for 20ome years doing all
00:23:01
these telly shows where you go out and
00:23:03
you've got researchers that find super
00:23:05
interesting people for you to talk to.
00:23:07
And so really all I've need to do is
00:23:10
just be awake and pay attention to stuff
00:23:12
that's happening around me. you just
00:23:13
pick up these kind of useful things and
00:23:15
most of the good stuff people thought
00:23:17
generations ago like thousands of years
00:23:19
ago. All the good thinking has been
00:23:21
done. There's no new thinking.
00:23:22
>> There's just um there's just the old
00:23:24
stuff repackaged.
00:23:26
>> Yeah. So um so after after the Y techie
00:23:29
experience um you go to university um
00:23:32
get a zoology and marine science degree.
00:23:34
>> Yes. Why?
00:23:35
>> Well, so university I I went I went to
00:23:38
university when it was free. I think we
00:23:39
paid $300 in student fees and we bitched
00:23:42
about that. It's like why am I paying
00:23:44
$300? I didn't even go this year. Um,
00:23:47
and so I ranged through a whole bunch of
00:23:49
careers at university. And uh, I
00:23:51
originally uh thought I was going to be
00:23:53
a philosopher because that was the least
00:23:56
Omaru thing I thought you could study.
00:23:58
Uh, but then I went to a philosophy
00:23:59
lecture and they said, "Should you eat
00:24:01
the bread of the plate?" And I went,
00:24:02
"This is just stupid. Like I know the
00:24:03
answer to that. I need to go find that."
00:24:05
Only later I discovered that actually
00:24:07
philosophy is super interesting. Um but
00:24:09
I and I I I I I
00:24:14
was going to do um
00:24:17
the only science subject you could do at
00:24:18
stage two without chemistry was um I
00:24:21
think zoologology at that point and
00:24:22
geology and some of those things and
00:24:25
basically I had cheated through my
00:24:27
entire six form year and copied Don
00:24:29
Clark's assignments in chemistry and got
00:24:31
accredited in chemistry. I understood
00:24:32
nothing about it at all. I still don't
00:24:34
to this day. Chemistry is a complete
00:24:35
mystery to me. So I wanted to ditch
00:24:37
that. Um, and I'd watched Jacqu Kustar
00:24:39
as a kid. Um, and uh, I thought, "Oh,
00:24:42
I'll be a marine biologist. That sounds
00:24:43
pretty awesome." So, so yeah, I peeled
00:24:46
off and did zoology. Uh, and then, um,
00:24:50
with this idea of doing marine science
00:24:52
after that, I wanted to go to the
00:24:53
Antarctic to do a research project, but
00:24:55
because I was such an idiot, I left it
00:24:57
way too late. So, by the time I talked
00:24:58
them was already too late. Um, so yes, I
00:25:01
did zoo and marine science. I got within
00:25:02
two weeks of joining the police back
00:25:04
then because that was uh, something I
00:25:06
was kind of super interested in doing.
00:25:07
and then um changed tack and came up to
00:25:10
Oakland did psychology up here.
00:25:12
>> When was the music career? Was that in
00:25:13
between those two? The the Gavin
00:25:14
Thornton steam injected.
00:25:16
>> Yeah, we we were a thing.
00:25:17
>> What was what was that? Were you a
00:25:19
ukulele player? No. What did you
00:25:20
>> Yeah, I play ukulele and a bit of
00:25:21
harmonica uh and um kazoo and stuff like
00:25:26
that. We we had we knew this guy Stuart
00:25:28
who actually really was talented and he
00:25:30
played in proper bands. Um and we just
00:25:32
thought it'd be fun to go busking. We
00:25:33
thought we could raise some money for
00:25:34
beer basically. Um, and so we we set
00:25:37
this little skiffl band up with a
00:25:39
teacher's bass and ukulele and
00:25:40
washboards and all that kind of stuff.
00:25:42
Um, and we went away for a weekend to
00:25:45
Twisle and I think our first gig in the
00:25:49
Twisle Mall, we got drunk first. That
00:25:52
was a bad idea cuz we couldn't do
00:25:54
anything. So, we made 20 cents. The next
00:25:56
day we thought, okay, let's do it not
00:25:57
being drunk and see how that goes. And
00:25:58
we made enough, I think, to buy two and
00:26:01
a half jugs of beer or something. So, we
00:26:03
thought, oh, this is quite good. So we
00:26:04
just did that for a fun thing for the
00:26:06
year and um yeah that was my that was my
00:26:08
musical career in Gavin Thornton's.
00:26:10
>> So what so how old were you when you
00:26:11
went back to back to study and to do
00:26:14
psychology? God that must have been must
00:26:16
be having never been to university
00:26:18
myself like you you do these years you
00:26:19
get a degree does it feel like a waste
00:26:21
of time? No, cuz cuz even the
00:26:23
zoologology and marine science stuff,
00:26:25
like at the time I thought, "Oh, I did
00:26:26
all that stuff and I'll never use it."
00:26:28
And then I had kids and it's like I
00:26:29
could go to the beach and say wise
00:26:31
things about the various little
00:26:32
creatures skimming about in the in the
00:26:34
in the in the water and stuff. Um, no,
00:26:37
but it w it was very different back then
00:26:38
because it was free. And so I this is
00:26:40
where kids now have it so much harder.
00:26:42
like they have to every year cost them a
00:26:45
fortune and so they have to really think
00:26:47
about what's the subject I'm doing and I
00:26:50
don't know how you can know that
00:26:52
>> before you do it like I chopped and
00:26:53
changed all over the place and then you
00:26:54
know
00:26:55
>> then we decided that uh all the people
00:26:57
that got free education decided that it
00:26:59
simply wasn't right for people to get
00:27:00
free education so they bought them fees
00:27:02
and now kids came out with these massive
00:27:04
debts and end up doing courses they
00:27:05
don't like and a bunch of things but
00:27:07
>> but what was the motivation for
00:27:08
psychology what was the catalyst to go
00:27:10
back and study that
00:27:11
>> um I quite liked Like I I I like the
00:27:14
idea of working with people and I've
00:27:16
always been sort of
00:27:18
my sort of approach to things is like
00:27:20
you know that whole thing about if
00:27:21
there's two paths diverged in the wood
00:27:23
>> like if if I came to a wood and there
00:27:26
was two paths and there was a dude there
00:27:28
and the dude said look definitely go
00:27:31
this way. It's flat. It's paved. There's
00:27:33
good lighting. There's a little cafe up
00:27:35
there um and comfy seats. Don't go down
00:27:37
there. There's some [ __ ] up [ __ ] down
00:27:39
there. I would totally that I'm going
00:27:42
that way straight away. Like I just
00:27:44
thought the world's an interesting place
00:27:47
and I wanted to kind of see more of that
00:27:50
and I was interested in like why people
00:27:52
do bad things um and what are people who
00:27:55
do bad things like and so the psychology
00:27:58
stuff um yeah that sort of that
00:28:00
interested me. Um so yeah I just kind of
00:28:03
did it cuz I thought oh that I'm going
00:28:04
to I'm going to learn some interesting
00:28:05
things if I if I do that which I which I
00:28:08
did.
00:28:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, we'll get into the TV
00:28:11
stuff, but yeah, Beyond the Darklands,
00:28:12
one of my one of my favorite TV shows of
00:28:14
the last 20 years. Never missed an
00:28:15
episode. Fascinating.
00:28:17
>> And the weird thing is I had more
00:28:18
information about the guys that we
00:28:20
profiled on that show than I did um in
00:28:23
any psychology report that I ever wrote
00:28:25
because we would have producers who
00:28:26
would spend six or eight months going
00:28:28
around and gathering all this
00:28:30
information up about people. And so it
00:28:32
was
00:28:33
>> the scuffing sound is the we dog
00:28:36
>> Kanye's trying to dig a hole in the
00:28:38
carpet.
00:28:38
>> Digging a hole. He doesn't realize we're
00:28:39
in an apartment and this is going to
00:28:41
make life super difficult. Um, yeah. So,
00:28:45
so, so yeah, Beyond the Darklands was a
00:28:47
And it's interesting like I when we when
00:28:50
we started to like when Philly is from
00:28:53
Screen Time first kind of met with me
00:28:54
about the show,
00:28:57
I sort of had some conditions. I kind of
00:28:59
said, "Well, we're not going to make an
00:29:00
episode about about any of these
00:29:03
offenders unless we've got the victim's
00:29:05
famil family's permission to do it."
00:29:06
like we would go to them directly and
00:29:08
ask them. Um, and we're not going to do
00:29:09
any recreations and we're not going to
00:29:11
have blood and stuff like that. And
00:29:12
Philly's, you know, a marvelous and
00:29:14
ethical person and was totally on board
00:29:16
with that. And so we kind of stuck to
00:29:18
that. Like we would always get the
00:29:20
permission of victim's families before
00:29:21
we made an episode. And so there was
00:29:24
some we just didn't do like Mark Lundy
00:29:25
was going to be the first season, but
00:29:27
his family would had got burned by the
00:29:28
media and weren't interested. And so I
00:29:30
think
00:29:31
>> in season four we kind of went back to
00:29:33
them and said, "Okay, so now you see
00:29:34
what we do." And for me, I was making
00:29:37
those things for the parole board of a
00:29:38
lot of these guys, so they would have
00:29:40
that information in front of them. Uh,
00:29:41
and and so second time around, they were
00:29:44
okay with us doing it because they kind
00:29:46
of knew how we did things. I mean, it's
00:29:48
people's families and stuff. And so it's
00:29:50
not just entertainment. And another of
00:29:52
my conditions was we're never going to
00:29:54
sell it as a DVD set in Wickles, like it
00:29:55
won't be for sale because
00:29:57
>> that's just too crass or insensitive.
00:29:59
>> It's crass. It's like if my kid had been
00:30:01
murdered and then it's this thing gets
00:30:03
made and they're selling it. We're cool,
00:30:06
you know, it's just that just seemed
00:30:07
wrong. So, um yeah, to the to Philly's
00:30:10
Phillyy's great. Um and just all that
00:30:13
stuff was fine.
00:30:14
>> Yeah. Do do you still follow Bleeck
00:30:16
stuff now? Like at the time we're
00:30:17
recording this, the jury's out on the uh
00:30:20
>> Hulking Horn trial.
00:30:21
>> Oh, yeah.
00:30:22
>> You follow that?
00:30:22
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, we we we follow that. Um
00:30:26
um so Natalie, my partner, she's that
00:30:28
also she's done a lot of adult mental
00:30:30
health stuff and has worked in um did
00:30:32
did some time in Broadmore in the UK as
00:30:34
well where you know she talked to people
00:30:36
who cut people's heads off and bury them
00:30:38
in the backyard and stuff. Um some of
00:30:41
that carry on and so yeah know we follow
00:30:42
the porn and stuff because it's just
00:30:44
it's interesting. I don't follow the new
00:30:46
I try not to follow the news generally
00:30:47
because it's just generally depressing
00:30:48
and irritating
00:30:49
>> but some of that stuff
00:30:52
it's pretty interesting. M. Is there
00:30:54
part of you that that is, you know,
00:30:55
thinks, [ __ ] I'd love to do a show
00:30:57
about this or documentary about this?
00:30:58
>> No, because like I'm really glad the
00:31:00
Darklands is done because it was
00:31:03
>> just because you're making it about
00:31:06
individual people and individual
00:31:08
families. There's always that kind of
00:31:10
pressure there that you you don't want
00:31:12
to make something that's going to make
00:31:14
people feel kind of exploited or that um
00:31:17
kind of isn't okay. So, I was glad to go
00:31:19
back from I'm I'm glad we did that
00:31:22
stuff. I think we did some good stuff in
00:31:23
there, but it was good that it ended
00:31:25
when it did.
00:31:26
>> Yes. So, so in your early years as a a
00:31:28
psychologist who like who who were your
00:31:29
clients?
00:31:31
>> So, my um I most I did a lot of child
00:31:34
and family stuff for most of my career
00:31:36
really. Um and that was because again
00:31:41
like I sort of I thought rather than let
00:31:44
someone choose you had to get placements
00:31:47
and internships. Rather than let someone
00:31:48
choose that for me, I'm going to go and
00:31:49
find my own. Um, and so I very cynically
00:31:54
joined victim support before I applied
00:31:55
for the diploma. So I had some stuff
00:31:57
under my belt. Um, as part of that, a
00:32:00
guy came along um, from a stopping
00:32:02
violence program and talked about this
00:32:04
10e program. And so when I got into the
00:32:06
diploma and I was looking for a mast's
00:32:08
project, I went to see him, but he was
00:32:11
on the phone and the guy that ran the
00:32:13
sex offend the treatment program wasn't.
00:32:14
And we started chatting and even though
00:32:17
this one was 10 weeks, this one was like
00:32:19
two years long. um I it just sounded far
00:32:22
more interesting and so I immediately
00:32:24
kind of peeled off into that and then
00:32:26
through that met a lot of really clever
00:32:28
people and ended up um working in the
00:32:31
child and family area because it's just
00:32:33
interesting and
00:32:35
>> um teenagers are great like if adults
00:32:38
are super polite but teenagers tell you
00:32:40
to go [ __ ] yourself like you walk in I
00:32:43
once walked into this girl I once walked
00:32:46
into I was to assess this girl she was
00:32:47
like 11 and she had 12 or something and
00:32:50
she tried to take like an old lady and
00:32:52
her car. So, she wanted the set of those
00:32:54
two things. And I walked into the room
00:32:56
and she looked at me and she said,
00:32:58
"Fuck, man. I'm not [ __ ] talking to
00:33:00
you. You're the [ __ ] ugliest man in
00:33:01
the whole [ __ ] world."
00:33:05
And I liked her straight away. Like, I
00:33:08
thought you are like a great deal. And
00:33:10
then, so I just said to her, you know
00:33:12
what's interesting? I used to be a
00:33:13
stunningly handsome man, but it wasn't
00:33:15
working. So, went to made a moan as a
00:33:17
plastic surgeon. And I said, "Can you
00:33:18
[ __ ] me up just a little bit?" Which she
00:33:20
did. And she laughed, which made her
00:33:22
really annoyed. And then we just did
00:33:23
that for the rest of the time. And I
00:33:24
like I like kids like that. Like I like
00:33:26
working with kind of families and kids
00:33:28
where they're just super upfront in the
00:33:30
Tony stuff. And also there's just such a
00:33:32
ton of hope because, you know, they're
00:33:33
just kids.
00:33:35
>> Were you were you um were you
00:33:36
polarizing? Like did did some of your
00:33:38
peers sort of frown upon you? Like um
00:33:40
>> Yeah. I think
00:33:41
>> cuz you're quite unorthodox. E
00:33:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I've I've had a
00:33:46
tenuous relationship with my
00:33:48
professional body. Um because I think
00:33:50
psych I think there's lots of really
00:33:52
great psychologist doing amazing stuff,
00:33:53
but I think we're way too careful as a
00:33:55
profession. And I think that we're a bit
00:33:57
we sort of we turn on ourselves a little
00:33:59
bit too much. Um, and so,
00:34:03
you know, I there were I I yeah, I know
00:34:05
there was psychologists that didn't
00:34:07
think that what I was doing was a good
00:34:09
thing, but
00:34:11
my my thing is always um
00:34:14
if you're doing something and you don't
00:34:16
and you feel like you can't or shouldn't
00:34:18
talk about it to other professionals,
00:34:20
then it's wrong. And so, I've always
00:34:21
been really open about kind of the stuff
00:34:23
I did. And and also, I was always
00:34:24
working in teams of people. So, it was
00:34:26
never just me doing stuff. You're
00:34:27
working in this collaborative team. We
00:34:29
all make decisions together. Um, but
00:34:30
yeah, like I know there are some
00:34:31
psychologists that don't
00:34:34
I don't give a I don't care. I literally
00:34:36
don't give a [ __ ]
00:34:36
>> I get the feeling you don't. No, cuz
00:34:38
that TED talk I was talking about that's
00:34:40
on YouTube. Yeah, you tell a story in
00:34:41
there about a kid that's um
00:34:42
>> doing um play therapy or sand therapy,
00:34:44
whatever it's called.
00:34:45
>> And you you basically um uh get through
00:34:48
to him by teaching him how to trick the
00:34:50
psychologist.
00:34:50
>> Yeah.
00:34:51
>> Um I was thinking, yeah, a lot of your
00:34:53
peers must would be like, "Oh, that's
00:34:54
not the correct way to do it." But it's
00:34:55
effective.
00:34:56
>> It is. And a lot of them would. But
00:34:57
there are lots of really good
00:34:58
psychologists doing really good work. I
00:35:00
just think they're we're too worried
00:35:02
about what other psychologists will
00:35:04
think of the stuff that we do. And so
00:35:05
there's lots of people doing really
00:35:06
creative and good stuff. I mean, my
00:35:07
thing was always I don't like my
00:35:09
obligation is not your sensibilities. My
00:35:12
obligation is here's this kid in the
00:35:13
room
00:35:14
>> and my job is to find out what's going
00:35:15
on. And so I'll do whatever I need to do
00:35:17
within the realms of what's, you know,
00:35:19
ethical and responsible um to help this
00:35:22
kid to talk about stuff. And I don't
00:35:24
care if some up top I I once offered to
00:35:26
do a talk at the site conference and I
00:35:28
was going to call it um why we need to
00:35:30
pucker less and fart more. But they they
00:35:34
they said they wouldn't let me do it
00:35:36
unless I change the title. I said well
00:35:37
I'm not changing the title so I didn't
00:35:38
do it. But I do think it's that it's
00:35:39
like we don't everyone's just far too
00:35:43
freaking careful and worried about
00:35:44
stuff, you know? Everyone's worried
00:35:45
about getting cancelled.
00:35:47
>> From what I can see, cancel just means
00:35:49
people say mean [ __ ] about you on the
00:35:50
internet. Well, who gives a [ __ ] like
00:35:52
you know it's like cancel me I'm fine
00:35:55
with that. Um it just mean you go oh
00:35:56
typity type.
00:36:00
>> It's so true. So so um from kids you
00:36:02
move on to um like like just just the
00:36:05
worst of the worst like violent
00:36:06
offenders, sex offenders, murderers. Um
00:36:10
when when you're working with terrible
00:36:12
people like that, like what sort of
00:36:13
impact does it have on your mental
00:36:14
health? Like how do you switch off
00:36:16
outside of work?
00:36:17
>> The odd thing is most of them weren't
00:36:18
terrible people. Like your job when
00:36:20
you're doing that stuff is you have to
00:36:22
you can't you have to find a way to
00:36:24
connect and build a relationship with
00:36:25
this other person because you're saying
00:36:26
to this other human being, hey, don't do
00:36:28
those bad things anymore. Like try these
00:36:30
other things instead. No one is going to
00:36:32
listen to that or think about that if
00:36:34
you if you're an [ __ ] or if you're
00:36:37
angry at them or you're hering them or
00:36:39
making them feel bad, you got to find a
00:36:40
way to connect with the actual kind of
00:36:42
person inside of all of that. And so
00:36:44
there's their behaviors and then there's
00:36:46
the person. There are very I can't think
00:36:49
of a single offender that I work with
00:36:51
that I didn't find something to like
00:36:53
about because they're just they're just
00:36:54
people and
00:36:56
>> we kind of have this idea that they're
00:36:57
vastly different to us.
00:36:59
>> No, they're not. They're us. They're
00:37:00
just us. You know, it's just some of
00:37:02
most of us are lucky and that our sexual
00:37:04
fantasies aren't about things that are
00:37:06
illegal or if they are about things are
00:37:07
illegal, we don't actually do them. Um
00:37:09
some people uh get caught up in all
00:37:12
kinds of things. And you know, our
00:37:14
prisons aren't full of people who are
00:37:16
innately bad. They're full of people who
00:37:18
have alcohol and drug habits, who grew
00:37:19
up in poverty, who didn't get kind of
00:37:21
enough education, who grew up in trauma
00:37:23
and all that kind of stuff. And all the,
00:37:25
you know, people go, "Oh, it's all woke
00:37:27
apologist nonsense." It's like bollocks.
00:37:28
You go into these places and sit down
00:37:30
with someone, ask them about their life
00:37:32
story, and then tell me that you think
00:37:34
that they're just innately a bad person.
00:37:37
If you grow up being beaten and abused
00:37:40
and hungry and cold and scared, you're
00:37:43
not going to think the world's a lovely
00:37:44
place and I should be nice to other
00:37:46
people. you're going to think the world
00:37:47
doesn't give a [ __ ] about me, so why
00:37:48
should I give a [ __ ] about other people?
00:37:49
So, you have to find stuff to kind of
00:37:51
connect and like about those people. And
00:37:54
and it's a it's a really good life skill
00:37:56
because um not many of us have to do
00:37:59
that. We often, you know, we we meet a
00:38:01
whole bunch of people and you don't
00:38:02
always have to find things to like, but
00:38:05
it always works better if you do.
00:38:08
>> Sure. You're a good bastard, aren't you?
00:38:09
Like I mean you could you could eas you
00:38:11
could you know no you are because you
00:38:12
could I I got some friends that are like
00:38:14
ex cops and they a lot of them ended up
00:38:17
like quite cynical like have an ability
00:38:19
to see the worst in almost everyone but
00:38:21
it seems like you can you you've got
00:38:23
this ability to I don't know maybe it's
00:38:25
a compassion streak or something
00:38:27
>> to see that there is a little bit of
00:38:28
good in everyone.
00:38:29
>> Well I think I'm just fundamentally I'm
00:38:31
a pragmatist and so I I want to do
00:38:33
whatever works. I'm fundamentally kind
00:38:36
of lazy and a pragmatist and so I don't
00:38:38
want to have to do [ __ ] if there's no
00:38:39
point in doing it. Like I want the
00:38:41
fastest result to something happening.
00:38:43
Um and it is through this thing. I
00:38:45
totally get why cops get like that. Like
00:38:47
I think if I'd spent my career in the
00:38:48
police, I'm pretty sure I would have
00:38:49
been like that too because their job is
00:38:52
to basically catch people and lock them
00:38:55
up. Like they're not doing therapy.
00:38:57
Their job isn't to connect. Although,
00:38:59
you know, you read people like um uh
00:39:02
Chuck Hemwood's book that's just this is
00:39:04
>> Oh, yeah. And masking monsters
00:39:05
>> and like one of the Chuck Hemwood's a
00:39:08
really smart guy. Um and it's a
00:39:11
fantastic book. Like if you want a
00:39:13
really good book to show you what
00:39:15
criminal profiling is like in the real
00:39:17
world, it's like you not I read the
00:39:19
whole thing in like one go. It was
00:39:21
fantastic. I I had him um he was in that
00:39:23
chair a couple of months ago and he he
00:39:25
he sort of echoed what you were saying
00:39:27
about there's a bit of good in everyone
00:39:28
but he said the the exception to that
00:39:30
rule in his experience was Malcolm
00:39:31
>> Raya. Yeah. Yeah. Some people you look
00:39:34
at them and for whatever reason there's
00:39:36
just cold dead ice and
00:39:39
>> and you know you can come up with
00:39:41
whatever theories you want from that but
00:39:43
it's the smart thing is to take people
00:39:45
like that just put them in a place where
00:39:46
they can't get out and be with other
00:39:47
people because if they are they'll hurt
00:39:48
them. Um, so I absolutely think there
00:39:51
are people like that. Um, but and but
00:39:53
but you know, even people like Chuck,
00:39:55
one of the things I like about his book
00:39:56
and he he did have compassion and he did
00:39:59
have that ability to kind of reach out
00:40:00
and deal with people. And you look at
00:40:02
the best cops, the best cops aren't
00:40:03
macho, arrogant, pushing people around.
00:40:05
They're like calming everything down,
00:40:07
treating people with respect. D gets you
00:40:10
a long way.
00:40:11
>> Yeah, it's great. Yeah. There's a quote
00:40:13
from Michelle Obama that I I love. I use
00:40:15
it all the time. Um, I've learned it's
00:40:17
harder to hate up close. Sounds like
00:40:19
you'd agree with that.
00:40:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like every time, this
00:40:22
is the thing about the internet, right?
00:40:24
Everyone goes
00:40:26
and I don't I don't know why anyone goes
00:40:28
on Facebook to engage in a conversation
00:40:30
cuz it's like I think this politically,
00:40:33
oh, you're a dick. No, you're a dick.
00:40:35
You're a dick. And it just goes
00:40:36
backwards and forwards and backwards and
00:40:37
forwards. Um, no one ever changes their
00:40:39
mind on the internet about any of that
00:40:41
kind of stuff. But when you get two
00:40:44
people together, they do. We did this. I
00:40:45
don't think we ever it was for a show
00:40:47
but we didn't put this bit in. We got
00:40:49
people from the furthest ends of the
00:40:51
political continuum we could get and we
00:40:54
interviewed them first about their views
00:40:55
about other people in the world and
00:40:57
stuff and then we um brought them
00:40:59
together to make a pizza like it was
00:41:01
just schmaltzy tally stuff. But I
00:41:02
remember this one guy like he was on the
00:41:04
D for three years and then this other
00:41:06
person was really high up in the ACT
00:41:07
party and they both talked about
00:41:09
unemployed people da d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:10
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:10
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:10
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:11
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:11
d d d d d d d d d d d and then we
00:41:12
brought them together to make a pizza
00:41:14
and we did so you you think this about
00:41:15
them and you think this about them why
00:41:17
don't you have a chat about that and you
00:41:18
can't be it's just much harder to be
00:41:20
mean to people in the same room and so
00:41:22
what happens is we discover that
00:41:24
actually
00:41:25
>> people do have far more in common than
00:41:27
than not it's like
00:41:29
>> we spent uh 10 days in parliament a
00:41:31
couple of years ago doing a docker about
00:41:33
basically what a politicians do all day.
00:41:35
Um, you know, they work really hard and
00:41:38
and we sat in select committees and it's
00:41:40
boring. It never makes a tally, but it
00:41:42
was all of them working together to try
00:41:45
to do sensible things. So,
00:41:48
I think, you know, most most people
00:41:50
their intentions are good. It doesn't
00:41:52
mean that the stuff they do is always
00:41:54
good, but their intentions are usually
00:41:56
good.
00:41:57
>> Yes. Speaking of um yeah, like internet
00:41:59
trolls and stuff. Yeah. You you used to
00:42:01
be active on Twitter and then you you
00:42:02
you
00:42:03
>> stopped. So you stopped. Why? Why did
00:42:06
you What was the
00:42:07
>> I suddenly realized I'd never go on
00:42:08
Twitter and feel anything but angry, you
00:42:10
know, and it's like
00:42:12
>> And what was it debating with strangers,
00:42:14
people that you
00:42:14
>> Oh, yeah. And I got into this weird
00:42:16
thing with Simon Bridges.
00:42:17
>> Oh, yeah. What was that? There was some
00:42:18
beef there, eh?
00:42:19
>> It was a weird thing.
00:42:20
>> He he called you a lefty or something or
00:42:22
>> Yeah. Well, he he said, "Oh, you know,
00:42:23
the government's done nothing about
00:42:25
housing." And I just tweeted him back
00:42:27
cuz people do. I said, "Well, dude, like
00:42:29
you had nine years. You, you know, they
00:42:31
didn't just, it wasn't perfect." Um, and
00:42:33
then he came back with something and I
00:42:34
came back with something and that went
00:42:35
on for like two days. And then, um, then
00:42:38
Natalie said, "What are you, what are
00:42:40
you doing?" I mean, what do you mean?
00:42:41
She said, "You're just angry guy on
00:42:43
Twitter with Simon Bridges." And I said,
00:42:45
"Oh, yeah. Like, what the how did that
00:42:48
happen?" So I just I did I did used to
00:42:50
do a thing though where because I quite
00:42:52
liked I quite like when people kind of
00:42:53
troll you a little bit and um there was
00:42:56
this one dude who you know why is Nigel
00:42:58
later such a big star and so I was
00:43:01
staying in Deneden at my mom's place and
00:43:02
I remember I spent 45 minutes trying to
00:43:05
explain how a star is formed in 160
00:43:08
characters I said you know swirling dust
00:43:11
circles gravity and then the whole thing
00:43:13
ignites and that's how it becomes a star
00:43:14
and he went back a dick and and then I I
00:43:18
was just going back being relentlessly
00:43:20
good human and nice to him and
00:43:21
eventually he just thought, "Can you
00:43:23
just stop now? Can you just leave me
00:43:25
alone? I'm sorry. Was my good humor
00:43:27
getting in the way of you all trolling?"
00:43:29
And then again at my mom's place I made
00:43:32
up an account called Nigel trolling
00:43:33
Nigel where um I think I only did it
00:43:36
once but I trolled myself uh and you're
00:43:38
a dick. Oh no. And then because then I
00:43:41
could win the argument so I but it was
00:43:44
too hard to log out and log back in. So,
00:43:46
I gave that up.
00:43:47
>> Oh my god, that seems so time inensive.
00:43:50
Um, when when did you become a big star?
00:43:53
When was the moment that you thought,
00:43:54
"Oh, I'm I'm um I'm kind of famous now."
00:43:57
>> Well,
00:43:57
>> was it was it did it start with a book
00:43:58
deal or was it a TV show? No, it was
00:44:02
it's I was kind of um it probably after
00:44:06
I think the parenting show was probably
00:44:07
when the the poling that when we got
00:44:10
some quite big audiences for back in the
00:44:12
day for that um
00:44:15
>> and it was just it was a very strange
00:44:17
thing because I'm from Omaroo and so I
00:44:19
didn't I I I didn't know anyone in the
00:44:22
media or tally or anything like that. So
00:44:24
that whole world is pretty weird and it
00:44:25
just it just kind of gradually happens
00:44:28
and then it's like you suddenly it's
00:44:31
like oh like I'm part of this kind of
00:44:33
world of people but you know to be fair
00:44:36
it's TV in New Zealand right and I
00:44:38
remember going to it was some TV awards
00:44:41
thing before I stopped going cuz I
00:44:43
missed the good ones back in the 90s
00:44:44
they were awesome apart from all the
00:44:46
accounts was fighting and drugs and
00:44:48
scandals now it's just everyone being
00:44:50
nice to each other um but there were all
00:44:52
these sort of tally people um some of
00:44:54
the networking people were sort of
00:44:56
getting their photos in front of the
00:44:57
thing and sort of and I just remember
00:44:59
thinking settle down like if you're on
00:45:03
telly and and people know you in New
00:45:05
Zealand it's like being in a community
00:45:07
newspaper in Sydney you know what I mean
00:45:09
like it's not like
00:45:10
>> you're not
00:45:11
>> you're big fish in a very small pond
00:45:12
>> yeah you are and it's like and it's not
00:45:14
taking anything away from it but it's
00:45:15
like it's that part of the whole thing
00:45:18
is meaningless and frivolous and silly
00:45:20
what it does though um is that it gets
00:45:23
you access to people and it gives you
00:45:25
more influence. And so for a time when I
00:45:28
was doing telly stuff and clinical
00:45:29
stuff, it worked really well because a
00:45:31
social worker could say the same thing
00:45:33
to family for ages and then they just
00:45:35
wouldn't listen. They go, "Do you want
00:45:36
to see that guy from the telly?" He'd
00:45:37
come and see. Oh yeah. So I would come
00:45:40
and see them, say the same things as a
00:45:41
social worker and they would just start
00:45:42
to listen and do those things and it's
00:45:44
just because of the
00:45:45
>> star power.
00:45:46
>> Yeah. It's just because of the thing.
00:45:47
Oh, he's on the telly. He must know what
00:45:48
he's talking about.
00:45:50
>> That's awesome. Um but like speak of
00:45:52
those TV awards, it must be like
00:45:53
gratifying um you knowing that you're
00:45:56
there because you've done some done some
00:45:57
like good work that adds value to people
00:45:59
life people's life rather than just
00:46:00
sitting there reading an auto quue with
00:46:02
the day's current affairs on.
00:46:04
>> Yeah. I I well what I liked about doco
00:46:06
making is it's kind of like um you get
00:46:09
to work with a team of people and um I
00:46:12
always work with like just great people
00:46:14
and like some of the best years in telly
00:46:17
that I had um it was a couple of years
00:46:19
where it was just you know my friend
00:46:21
Mitchell um and and Beon and Gabe and we
00:46:24
the four of us would just tood around
00:46:26
the place making telly and then you meet
00:46:28
all you know all these talented guys do
00:46:31
all these people who are really super
00:46:32
talented um and you and you get to go
00:46:35
around and do that. And what I like is I
00:46:38
I do like that collaborative process.
00:46:40
And I've never liked the idea of anyone
00:46:43
being special in any way. And so I never
00:46:45
bought into that you're the presenter so
00:46:47
you get the best stuff. I think that's
00:46:48
[ __ ] I think if you're the
00:46:49
presenter, you know the least amount and
00:46:52
you've got the least amount of expertise
00:46:54
of anyone here. DPS, soundies,
00:46:57
directors, you know, they all have to
00:46:59
know and do a whole bunch of stuff. I
00:47:01
just have to make words come in. I'm a
00:47:04
face. Like that's literally all I have
00:47:05
to do. And so so we we always had teams
00:47:08
where we we like everyone would weigh in
00:47:10
on ideas and no idea was sacred and we
00:47:13
started from the position that you know
00:47:16
the blank page you fill the blank page
00:47:17
with something ugly and stupid and then
00:47:19
we're all just going to kick it and kick
00:47:20
it and kick it until it becomes kind of
00:47:22
better. And I really I like I like that
00:47:24
process. So the my first job always when
00:47:26
I'm working with new people is just to
00:47:27
convince them I don't do any of that
00:47:29
presenter stuff like please don't do
00:47:30
that. Gabe though was an ask. I worked
00:47:33
with Gabe and Gab's a Gabe would what he
00:47:37
would do cuz he knew that I hated that
00:47:39
and so if if we were with someone if we
00:47:42
were I'd be doing this right the chat
00:47:44
before the interview and Gabe would come
00:47:45
to mic me up with my little microphone.
00:47:48
What he would do is he would kneel down
00:47:49
in front of me and keep his eyes down
00:47:51
like that. Say, "Excuse me, Mr. L. I
00:47:52
know you don't like me interrupting when
00:47:53
you're talking to people. Um, I do
00:47:55
apologize for that, but would it be all
00:47:56
right if I was to mic you up and I know
00:47:58
I don't want to make you cross your
00:48:00
Gabe, don't freaking do that cuz they
00:48:01
don't." And once we were filming in a
00:48:03
park, um, and it had been raining, so we
00:48:05
had an easy up on the center of the park
00:48:07
and we'd r for the day and all these
00:48:09
houses around so kids were watching us
00:48:11
cuz it was nice and stuff out there. And
00:48:12
um, I was walking out to the car
00:48:14
thinking, "Oh, that's weird." Like, why
00:48:15
is it not raining on me? And it is
00:48:17
raining on us. Gabe was following me
00:48:18
through the park with an umbrella over
00:48:20
me. Him in the pouring rain, making me
00:48:23
look like a total wanker.
00:48:28
>> Oh my god, that's amazing. That's like
00:48:30
peak celebrity status having an umbrella
00:48:32
holder.
00:48:34
>> Um, okay. So, uh, I god, I don't even
00:48:36
know if you won any TV awards or not,
00:48:38
but I'm assuming you would have. No.
00:48:39
>> No. No. I I laughed every time. Um Jer
00:48:43
um um um Jeremy um um
00:48:47
>> Wells um
00:48:48
>> Corbett
00:48:49
>> Corbett Corbett brain chemo brain.
00:48:51
>> Is that is that a thing?
00:48:52
>> Yeah, it really is a thing. Like I'm
00:48:54
just like half the time I can't remember
00:48:56
anything at all at the moment. Um but uh
00:48:59
yeah, I've been at a couple and
00:49:02
so one one of these is Jeremy Corbett.
00:49:05
Jeremy Corbett won. So I thought right,
00:49:07
you're my nemesis from now on. Um, and
00:49:10
it's a nice nemesis. A comedian is a
00:49:12
nemesis. Quite that's a good nemesis to
00:49:14
have. Um, and then there was one a
00:49:16
couple of years ago, I think, where I
00:49:17
went. And, um, for some reason I was in
00:49:19
the same category as Sam Neil. And Sam
00:49:22
Neil was about five people back in the
00:49:25
line to kind of get in. And I thought,
00:49:27
I'll just be friendly. I'll just go up
00:49:28
and, you know, and so I went up to Sam
00:49:30
Neil and I thought he's in the same
00:49:33
category. Surely he must. And I said,
00:49:35
"Look, mate, if I get up there and I
00:49:37
win, I'm going to [ __ ] talk you. I'm
00:49:39
going to [ __ ] talk your work. I'm gonna
00:49:40
[ __ ] talk your show. I'm just warning
00:49:41
you." And he sort of looked at me and he
00:49:43
went, "Sorry, who are you?"
00:49:48
>> Oh my god.
00:49:49
>> Weird. Like, okay, I'm just going to
00:49:52
>> Wow. Oh, what an amazing story. Amazing
00:49:55
story. Um, I mean, okay, so no TV
00:49:58
awards, but the Queen's birthday honor
00:49:59
us. Is it was that special? That must
00:50:01
have been gratifying, humbling.
00:50:02
>> Yeah, it was. It's also it's very
00:50:03
strange to get things like that. Um,
00:50:05
>> what what have you got? An O
00:50:06
>> an O N ZN.
00:50:07
>> What does that mean?
00:50:09
>> An officer of the New Zealand
00:50:11
>> Order of Merit.
00:50:13
>> I think that's what it means. Um, yeah,
00:50:16
like it was it was uh it was it was
00:50:18
strange. It was nice cuz I got to go to
00:50:20
government. I mean, the nice thing about
00:50:22
it is I got to go to government house
00:50:23
with my mom
00:50:24
>> uh and uh you know, with my kids because
00:50:26
they were a lot younger then. Uh, and so
00:50:28
that was all kind of nice and um, you
00:50:30
know, met the governor general and the
00:50:32
carpets. Have you ever been to
00:50:34
government house? Carpets are awesome.
00:50:36
Are
00:50:36
>> they? Why?
00:50:37
>> Everyone was going, "Man, these carpets
00:50:38
are awesome."
00:50:39
>> You just wanted to take your shoes off
00:50:41
and just run around your socks. Like
00:50:42
they were these really soft, deep
00:50:44
carpets. That's the thing I remember the
00:50:45
most. Where do you get your carpets
00:50:47
from? These are great.
00:50:49
>> But that's Did you take your shoes off?
00:50:51
No.
00:50:51
>> No, I didn't.
00:50:52
>> Um,
00:50:54
yes. So um so so you recently got
00:50:57
married eh so your wife um Natalie
00:50:59
Flynn.
00:50:59
>> Yeah. Six six well about seven months
00:51:02
ago. So our anniversary is November.
00:51:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. So second marriage your
00:51:05
first one was really long like almost 30
00:51:07
years.
00:51:07
>> Yeah. Almost 29 years. Yeah.
00:51:09
>> How how's that? Is that a are you guys
00:51:12
on okay terms?
00:51:13
>> Uh it was a complicated separation.
00:51:16
Let's just say that.
00:51:16
>> Okay. Uh, so mine my hope of how that
00:51:22
played out wasn't how it played out,
00:51:24
which is, you know, that's just how
00:51:26
things are. But, um, yeah, now I'm with
00:51:29
uh this uh amazing person and um like
00:51:33
just super happy. I think I kind of said
00:51:35
it on the video, but I think it's true.
00:51:36
is like
00:51:38
I think if if you're really lucky in
00:51:39
life, you meet like your person and like
00:51:42
there's just and you have the sense that
00:51:44
all of the people in the world like
00:51:45
you're the person and so she kind of is
00:51:48
that for me. And so
00:51:49
>> it's been um that's been it's been
00:51:51
really lovely. And
00:51:53
>> yeah, there's there's a line in that in
00:51:54
that video where you're talking about
00:51:55
Natalie and um I I don't know how many
00:51:58
minutes in it was, but um it made me
00:52:00
start crying just the line was um I
00:52:03
think she makes me feel safe.
00:52:05
>> Yeah, she does.
00:52:05
>> Beautiful. beautiful line.
00:52:06
>> She she makes me feel um
00:52:09
safe and and particularly over the last
00:52:12
four months, it's been like it's really
00:52:15
nice to have someone that you can lean
00:52:17
on like that. And you know, and she is
00:52:20
um like she comes from a family of super
00:52:22
smart people. Her her her father was Jim
00:52:25
Flynn who was this worldrenowned
00:52:27
economist. Her brother's a Oxford math
00:52:29
professor. Um basically in that house
00:52:31
I'm like a chimpanzeee. like there's
00:52:33
everyone else in the house and then
00:52:34
there's the chimpanzeee and then I I can
00:52:36
fix laptops and plug things in, but
00:52:38
that's pretty much it. Um uh but yeah,
00:52:42
but she's she's what I really love about
00:52:44
her is that she doesn't judge and she's
00:52:47
absolutely kind of fearless. Like most
00:52:49
people are a bit judgy about some
00:52:51
things, but she's a bit like me. She's
00:52:52
worked with um all kinds of people in
00:52:55
all kinds of places and so just doesn't
00:52:57
do that. and she's like compassionate to
00:53:01
the point that you feel it saying no you
00:53:03
don't have like she was really worried
00:53:04
about Ray Gun after the Olympics about
00:53:06
how she was doing you know
00:53:09
which is but like really worried about
00:53:11
it um and I keep saying we got enough to
00:53:13
worry about I'm sure Ray gun will be
00:53:14
fine um but no it's it's it's it is
00:53:18
really lovely having kind of found
00:53:21
something like that so now that's the
00:53:23
motivation for me it's like I there's
00:53:25
nothing I want to do or know where they
00:53:28
want to go. I just kind of want to be
00:53:30
>> with her and we want to get old and we
00:53:33
go to an old age home and complain about
00:53:35
the people around us. That's
00:53:37
>> Oh, those Ryman homes look so good,
00:53:39
don't they?
00:53:40
>> I know.
00:53:40
>> Looks like a contie for senior citizens.
00:53:42
>> I know. I know. I know.
00:53:44
>> Um, how did how did you guys make you
00:53:46
you working on an app? The parent land
00:53:47
app.
00:53:48
>> Yeah. So, we we'd known each other for a
00:53:49
while. Um,
00:53:50
>> through work.
00:53:51
>> Yeah. And so I'd uh I we kind of I
00:53:54
initially met her because she wrote this
00:53:56
book called Smart Mothering um which is
00:53:59
a really evidence-based look at the
00:54:01
about babies and what they need. She
00:54:03
loves babies. Loves the babies. Like we
00:54:05
when we walk past someone with a baby, I
00:54:08
have to hold her hand really tight
00:54:09
because say it's not your baby. You
00:54:11
can't. And once we were at Wellington
00:54:12
airport and there was this mom had these
00:54:14
two little twin babies on a rack and
00:54:15
Natalie was going up and chatting to her
00:54:17
and I could see the mom was getting a
00:54:19
little bit anxious cuz she you see
00:54:20
Natalie thinking I'm going to take one
00:54:21
of them and maybe the closest one. So I
00:54:24
get that one.
00:54:26
>> Um yeah. So we we sort of um I'd met
00:54:30
because her publisher asked me to read
00:54:32
the book cuz I hadn't met her before
00:54:34
then and so I did. I thought it was an
00:54:36
amazing book full of really good stuff.
00:54:37
Um, and uh, then we met and I thought,
00:54:40
"Oh, you're like real smart and funny.
00:54:42
Uh, um, I need to get you working on the
00:54:44
app." And so that's kind of how we
00:54:46
initially uh, met.
00:54:48
>> What's it like when two psychologists
00:54:50
have an argument?
00:54:51
>> Well, we don't actually argue. No.
00:54:52
>> No. Like we most of the time we don't.
00:54:55
Um, but if we do, it's like other
00:54:56
people. We just use words and say things
00:54:59
sometimes that, you know, you don't
00:55:01
necessarily mean, but we don't um, we
00:55:03
don't kind of have arguments. Well, like
00:55:06
we sometimes we have this stuff that
00:55:08
happens and we talk about it, but it's
00:55:10
not like uh I can't imagine having an
00:55:12
argument.
00:55:12
>> Yeah. Okay. Like a robust discussion,
00:55:14
right?
00:55:15
>> Yeah. It's like
00:55:16
>> Yeah.
00:55:17
>> I validate your feelings.
00:55:20
>> Yeah. Well, neither of us if any if if
00:55:22
any one of us said that the other one I
00:55:24
think we'd have them just taken away and
00:55:26
seen to
00:55:27
>> um Yeah. In that that video on
00:55:29
Instagram, you um you mentioned that
00:55:30
you've been through some trauma. Um, you
00:55:33
say this is the biggest biggest trauma,
00:55:35
but there has been others. Anything you
00:55:37
want to share or
00:55:37
>> Oh, it was the stuff I talked about in
00:55:39
the tent talk like when I was, you know,
00:55:40
14-year-old doing CPR on a dead guy.
00:55:42
That was pretty grim.
00:55:43
>> Yeah. What were the circumstances for
00:55:44
that? Like an elderly an old elderly guy
00:55:46
with fake false teeth.
00:55:47
>> Yeah. So, I was a little St. John Cadet
00:55:49
back in Omaru and um Oh, another thing
00:55:53
you get I get anyway chemo runny nose.
00:55:56
There you are. A little bit of
00:55:57
information there. Um, uh, yeah, I was a
00:56:00
little St. John Cadet and I was at this
00:56:02
BK's place who was an ambulance officer
00:56:04
in Omaru and he got this call and it was
00:56:06
just around the corner. So I kind of
00:56:08
went and um ended up doing CPR on the
00:56:11
dead guy and it turns out um it's not
00:56:13
like the resistation dummy where it's
00:56:15
all clean and rubbery. It's just it's
00:56:18
rubbery and if you make the beginner's
00:56:21
mistake which I did of taking out the
00:56:22
false teeth, mouth loses all structure.
00:56:24
It's just this big sort of blubbery
00:56:26
vomit covered hole. Um, and you're
00:56:28
blowing and it's wheezing and gurgling
00:56:30
and all that kind of. So, so, so I so I
00:56:33
had um I had definitely had some sort of
00:56:36
stuff from that. But one of the things
00:56:38
look people talk about post-traumatic
00:56:39
stress disorder which we all know about
00:56:40
which is kind of that's the bad side of
00:56:42
trauma, but you can have post-traumatic
00:56:43
growth like for most people for the
00:56:45
majority of people you go through
00:56:46
something traumatic um and you get
00:56:50
stronger as a result of it. And so for
00:56:51
me that was super useful because that
00:56:53
was my yard stick about is this bad?
00:56:55
It's like, well, it's an old dead guy
00:56:58
vomiting your mouth. That's worse than
00:56:59
this, you know? So, most things actually
00:57:01
seemed easy in comparison.
00:57:04
And the other things are just weird
00:57:05
things. Like, I remember um when we did
00:57:07
the did the Beyond the Darklands thing,
00:57:11
I part of it is you sometimes see some
00:57:14
of the evidence books and things. And
00:57:17
when we were doing the Michael Choy
00:57:18
episode, um who was killed by all those
00:57:20
kids, Bailey, BJ Kuricki, and a bunch of
00:57:23
other kids.
00:57:23
>> Yeah. Michael Choy, pizza delivery guy.
00:57:25
Yeah. Um I remember this I still
00:57:27
remember this photo in the evidence book
00:57:29
of this in the kitchen and it was just a
00:57:32
rubbish bin with a pizza box and some
00:57:34
drink bottles in it and that was the
00:57:35
stuff they taken from the go and I just
00:57:36
remember sitting there looking at it
00:57:38
thinking like they killed him for
00:57:40
basically pizza and freaking change. And
00:57:43
so that that kind of image has always
00:57:45
stayed with me. And some of the
00:57:48
conversations that you I had with family
00:57:51
about what it was like for them losing
00:57:53
people that that that that kind of stuff
00:57:56
too. But mostly what happens is um
00:58:01
you have to decide early on you have to
00:58:02
be able to kind of put that stuff down
00:58:04
and if you can't then you can't do that.
00:58:07
And so, you know, I'm really good at
00:58:09
being when I'm in something, I can be in
00:58:11
it and I can just put it down and and
00:58:13
and go home. H
00:58:15
>> how can how can any one of us um be you
00:58:19
more resilient? Like there's a great
00:58:20
joke at the beginning of that video
00:58:21
where you talk about trigger warnings.
00:58:23
So,
00:58:24
>> something that only bomb disposal.
00:58:27
>> It's it's a great but if it does feel
00:58:29
like everything has a a trigger warning
00:58:30
now.
00:58:31
>> It's like when did we all become so
00:58:33
fragile and useless that we can't talk
00:58:35
about things? I was at a stopping
00:58:37
violence conference, right? It's a it's
00:58:39
a family violence conference about
00:58:42
family violence. And one of the people
00:58:45
got up and said, "Just a trigger
00:58:47
warning. I'm going to talk about
00:58:49
violence and uh that may be triggering
00:58:51
for people and upsetting." And I'm
00:58:53
sitting there thinking, "It's a [ __ ]
00:58:55
family violence conference." Like I got
00:58:58
up in mine. I said, "I'm not giving you
00:59:00
a trigger warning. If you are at this
00:59:02
conference and you're triggered by the
00:59:04
fact that we're talking about family
00:59:05
violence, you're either stupid because
00:59:08
you hadn't worked out that's what family
00:59:09
violence is or you're messed up and you
00:59:11
need to go and talk to someone. Like
00:59:13
that's how mad the world has got. I
00:59:15
don't give trigger warnings for anything
00:59:17
because I have the belief that we can
00:59:18
talk about things and actually sometimes
00:59:20
you get upset and that's that's okay. So
00:59:23
part of it I think is not buying into
00:59:25
all of that nonsense. Um, but I think a
00:59:27
large part of resilience is I I think
00:59:29
there are some really simple ideas. It's
00:59:31
about, you know, it is about being
00:59:32
intentional and driving the bus. Like we
00:59:34
all get to choose our response. And so
00:59:36
things happen to us and they can be
00:59:38
upsetting and traumatic and bad. But
00:59:40
even in the depths of that, you still
00:59:42
get to choose how you respond to those
00:59:44
things. And that's not just some wery
00:59:47
sort of idea. People like Victor
00:59:49
Frankle, the Jewish psychiatrist who
00:59:51
survived four camps during the war. He
00:59:53
talked about the last fundamental human
00:59:54
freedom is to choose a response in any
00:59:56
given situation. You get to choose that.
00:59:58
Um then it's about, you know, the old
01:00:01
stoic idea about for me anyway, my
01:00:04
single biggest stress management goto is
01:00:07
just focus on the things that you can
01:00:09
control. It's a really simple idea, but
01:00:12
it really works. And so I could get lost
01:00:14
in all of the cancer stuff, but I can't
01:00:17
control any of that. Um, what I can
01:00:18
control is am I sleeping? What stuff am
01:00:21
I eating? Do I meditate? Am I doing a
01:00:24
little bit of exercise? Like where is my
01:00:26
mind at? These are these are things that
01:00:28
I can control. And so it's easy to
01:00:30
become swamped with things. But if you
01:00:32
think, okay, what can I control right
01:00:33
now? Maybe all you can control is how
01:00:35
you're sitting and how you're breathing.
01:00:37
um that day outside of the standing
01:00:40
outside of the um surgeon's office when
01:00:43
I just felt completely
01:00:45
lost, I thought, okay, well,
01:00:49
I can make a decision. Like that's
01:00:50
something I can make a decision about
01:00:52
where I'm going to go to now. Um
01:00:55
and then for me, the last thing is like
01:00:57
it's always about team. It's about
01:00:59
building up the people around you. It's
01:01:00
about seeing that your job is to make
01:01:03
the peoples around your you that to make
01:01:06
their lives kind of better in some way.
01:01:08
And and it's that idea of kind of
01:01:10
building people up um
01:01:13
>> is the stuff that's useful because
01:01:15
that's when you need people like we've
01:01:17
got a really great group of friends um
01:01:19
and they've been super kind and super
01:01:22
helpful. And so it's the team around you
01:01:24
that that matters. So I I think there
01:01:25
are some simple things that people can
01:01:27
do. Um and it doesn't make it any
01:01:30
easier. Like things are things are hard.
01:01:33
There's no magical if you do these three
01:01:35
amazing things everything will be easy
01:01:36
and simple because it won't.
01:01:38
>> Um
01:01:39
>> it's just that uh it can be harder. It
01:01:42
can be or it can be less hard. And so
01:01:45
doing some of those things I think makes
01:01:46
it easy to kind of chug through.
01:01:48
>> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. So
01:01:49
many good takeaways there. And by the
01:01:50
way, um, Frankle, who you mentioned, um,
01:01:53
yeah, Man's Search for Man is one of my
01:01:55
one of my favorite books of all time.
01:01:57
>> I keep buying a copy and then I'll give
01:01:58
it to someone else and have to replace
01:01:59
it. Yeah, it's fantastic. Brilliant.
01:02:02
>> Um, so you want to talk about the cancer
01:02:04
for a bit?
01:02:05
>> Yeah.
01:02:05
>> So, you feel like it's it's been a
01:02:07
running thread through this. So, um,
01:02:09
yeah. So, you you're feeling unwell for
01:02:11
how long?
01:02:12
>> Like a sore throat, right?
01:02:13
>> No. So, about four four about four or
01:02:16
five weeks, maybe maybe six weeks, maybe
01:02:18
a bit more. I would eat eat stuff and
01:02:21
feel full really quickly and almost sort
01:02:22
of get like a painful sort of pushy
01:02:25
feeling at the back of my throat. I at
01:02:27
the time and I started to lose a bit of
01:02:28
weight now at the time I thought ah it's
01:02:30
a peptic ulcer. Um so I thought I was on
01:02:32
a peptic ulcer diet and I this is great
01:02:34
cuz I lost about 6 kgs and think this is
01:02:37
awesome like I want to get this fixed
01:02:39
but I'm just going to wait till a little
01:02:41
bit more.
01:02:42
>> I'm almost at the goal weight.
01:02:44
>> It's like it's my new fat diet. It's
01:02:47
like it turns out I was on a gastro
01:02:48
cancer diet which is not as good as the
01:02:50
peptic diet by a long shot. I thought I
01:02:53
can't really pass it. If you want to
01:02:55
lose weight and eat lots of chocolate
01:02:57
and drink fizzy drinks, go on a gastric
01:02:59
cancer diet. You may die, but you're
01:03:02
definitely going to lose weight. Um
01:03:04
>> so so I I those kind of symptoms and um
01:03:07
I've got so I did kind of think my
01:03:11
tendency is to put most things off but I
01:03:13
just thought this feels like something.
01:03:15
So I went to my GP who's a great GP sent
01:03:17
me to the gastro person and then off off
01:03:18
it rolled from there
01:03:21
>> and then um went to So yeah. So you have
01:03:23
the night in the hotel you phone who who
01:03:26
did you phone by the way? Who did you
01:03:27
phone that night?
01:03:27
>> Um oh I can this is one thing I wanted
01:03:29
to say the one of the first people that
01:03:32
I phoned was our insurance guy. One of
01:03:35
the things I've learned from this is
01:03:36
that and I'm telling this to everyone
01:03:38
and I'm really glad I remembered this.
01:03:39
Um,
01:03:41
insurance, insurance, insurance. And I
01:03:44
know that for a lot of people, insurance
01:03:45
is a luxury and they can't get it. But
01:03:47
for some people, you could get it, but
01:03:49
they don't. You need life insurance, and
01:03:51
you need to look at how your life
01:03:52
insurance is structured because there's
01:03:54
money you get when you die, but also you
01:03:56
can get payments for if you're
01:03:58
permanently disabled or if you get a
01:04:00
terrible diagnosis. Um, you need health
01:04:03
insurance, uh, and you need income
01:04:05
protection. the health insurance stuff
01:04:08
that the there's there's no place I
01:04:10
think in our health system where that
01:04:12
inequity is more clear than in oncology
01:04:15
because the difference between living
01:04:16
and dying in oncology is money and if
01:04:19
you have money then you can get the
01:04:22
drugs that a lot of people can't get and
01:04:24
>> Oh it gives you the options.
01:04:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. And now the one thing I wish
01:04:27
I'd done differently is that uh in my
01:04:30
health I have health insurance which has
01:04:31
been just a godsend. Um, but what I
01:04:35
didn't do is take the extra cancer cover
01:04:37
because you don't cuz most people don't
01:04:39
know anything about oncology. They don't
01:04:41
think about the fact that one in three
01:04:42
people are going to get cancer. They
01:04:44
don't know uh which drugs are funded and
01:04:46
nonfunded. It's only after you get it
01:04:48
you go. So, I wish I'd ticked the extra
01:04:52
cancer cover up to 300,000 box. If I'd
01:04:55
ticked that, that would have been great.
01:04:57
>> Is there a box below that for turbo
01:04:58
cancer?
01:05:00
>> Not yet.
01:05:01
>> There will be soon though. Um yeah what
01:05:04
so you get the diagnosis then when when
01:05:06
does the chemo start? Is it like the
01:05:08
same week? Is it
01:05:08
>> well this is again where health
01:05:10
insurance is such a it just shows the
01:05:12
difference basically within 10 days of
01:05:14
being diagnosed I was doing chemo and so
01:05:17
they put a little thing in called a
01:05:19
portoath um which is like a little a
01:05:21
little a little device in here
01:05:23
>> like a little tap.
01:05:24
>> Yeah. It's just under the skin and uh so
01:05:26
they can inject the drug straight into
01:05:28
your kind of heart and you don't have to
01:05:30
worry about veins and stuff like that.
01:05:32
Um I got that done. I had scans. I got
01:05:34
that done. Uh and within 10 days I was
01:05:36
sitting there as they were pumping all
01:05:38
the stuff in going, "Oh, yep. This is an
01:05:40
unexpected event."
01:05:41
>> Were you um like [ __ ] how were you
01:05:44
pre chemotherapy? Were you [ __ ]
01:05:45
bricks? Just the fear of the unknown or
01:05:47
>> really the thing that I was having panic
01:05:49
attacks about was the this was the
01:05:50
porterath. I don't know why but this
01:05:52
thing really freaked me out. And so when
01:05:54
we kind of got on there on the day um
01:05:56
and the guy was talking about said look
01:05:58
usually I'm pretty good about this stuff
01:06:00
but I'm losing my [ __ ] Can you give me
01:06:02
as much mazzelam and fentinel as you can
01:06:04
as quickly as you can and that stuff is
01:06:07
freaking awesome. If I was a billionaire
01:06:09
I would have a raging addiction but I
01:06:11
would pay a really good anesthetist to
01:06:14
manage it. I think people like the
01:06:15
people that the celebrities that die
01:06:17
from the stuff, they just have shony.
01:06:18
Just get it if you're going to get
01:06:19
addicted to these things and I can see
01:06:21
why you would cuz they are awesome. Um
01:06:24
really
01:06:25
>> wh why like in what way? Just like a
01:06:27
nice warm feeling.
01:06:28
>> Yeah. It's like you go from being it's
01:06:30
just the best thing. Um you go from
01:06:32
being like I was really honestly
01:06:33
actually having a panic attack. Like I
01:06:35
don't know why but it just really
01:06:36
freaked me out. And so you're like
01:06:38
panicking panicking panic panicking and
01:06:40
they put the fender and you go panic. Ah
01:06:42
fantasy race. Oh, this is awesome. Hey,
01:06:44
we should do this like every week. You
01:06:46
guys are cool. I'm gonna come back here.
01:06:48
I'm gonna take this out at home and go,
01:06:50
"Ah, sorry. Fell out again. We need to
01:06:53
do another one."
01:06:54
>> Fentinel is Is that what Michael Jackson
01:06:56
was taking to sleep?
01:06:57
>> Yeah, it's actually And it's incredibly
01:06:59
dangerous. And it was dangerous when
01:07:00
fentinel was kind of entering the market
01:07:02
here and kids were starting to use it.
01:07:03
Like people don't know how dangerous it
01:07:05
is. Um, but when you're getting these
01:07:07
procedures done, they give you the Yeah.
01:07:08
Mazzylam and Fentinel and it is a tiny
01:07:11
little cocktail of stuff. M and what's
01:07:13
been the biggest sort of surprises about
01:07:14
chemotherapy because I suppose prior to
01:07:16
this all you sort of knew is what you'd
01:07:18
seen on your movies and things.
01:07:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. I it's it's um I think the f
01:07:24
the first time was really stressful
01:07:25
because it's new. And also
01:07:28
what they're looking at is do you have
01:07:29
reactions to drugs? So I was thinking
01:07:31
just don't have a reaction because I
01:07:32
want this drug. I don't want to. Even if
01:07:34
you do though, one of the things I've
01:07:35
learned about oncology is that it's this
01:07:37
it's like this big winding path and if
01:07:40
it's blocked one way, they can just go
01:07:41
another way. So there's lots of
01:07:42
different things that people can do. And
01:07:45
the other thing I've learned about
01:07:46
cancer is that everyone's cancer journey
01:07:47
is different. Like they just are. And so
01:07:49
one person's story really isn't relevant
01:07:51
to any person at all. It's like, you
01:07:54
know, my broken leg, your broken leg,
01:07:56
same thing with cancer because it's so
01:07:58
genetic. Genetic stuff is so important
01:08:01
now. Um, and the targeting stuff is so
01:08:03
important that it's making comparisons
01:08:07
or hearing people's stories or all of
01:08:10
those timelines, it's just not relevant.
01:08:12
It's just you and it's the road that
01:08:14
you're on.
01:08:15
>> Is is there anything you could have done
01:08:17
differently to avoid it?
01:08:18
>> No, no, no. I mean,
01:08:20
>> it's not lifestyle factors or anything.
01:08:21
>> No, it's just your DNA sometimes just
01:08:23
goes all right and then it just goes off
01:08:25
in this crazy path. And so I didn't
01:08:27
drink a lot like um one of the things I
01:08:30
you know one of the things I it's just
01:08:32
such a bummer man like one of my biggest
01:08:33
regrets is that um so I didn't drink for
01:08:36
a long time uh and recently probably in
01:08:38
the last couple of years I've discovered
01:08:40
cocktails. I never had cocktails because
01:08:42
I would think I'm not paying $22 for
01:08:44
freaking thing called a pelicantail
01:08:47
with mango and egg yolk in it. That's
01:08:50
ridiculous. What sort of an idiot would
01:08:52
buy that? And then we were out once and
01:08:55
I got a cocktail. I went, "This is the
01:08:57
best thing I think that's ever happened
01:08:58
to me. Um, this is so nice." And so I
01:09:01
really like cocktails, but I'm just
01:09:03
never drinking alcohol ever again. Like
01:09:05
it's a group one carcinogen.
01:09:07
>> Um, and it would seem pretty freaking
01:09:09
stupid to be to get this, have all these
01:09:12
magical treatments work, and then chuck
01:09:14
a carcinogen in on top. So unfortunately
01:09:16
for me,
01:09:17
>> cocktails are out the windows. And
01:09:19
that's a shame because I think
01:09:20
margaritas are one of the great
01:09:21
achievements of the human race. Oh, a
01:09:23
spicy margarita with a salty rim.
01:09:26
Unbeatable.
01:09:26
>> Well, have you had a coconut margarita?
01:09:28
>> No.
01:09:29
>> We want a Melbourne. Just amazing. It's
01:09:31
basically it's it's they make it with a
01:09:33
a margarita, but you just chuck in some
01:09:35
I think it's coconut cream or something
01:09:37
like that.
01:09:38
>> Really nice.
01:09:39
>> So, so like is is alcohol like a a
01:09:42
cause? So,
01:09:43
>> yeah, it's a it's a good one cuz like
01:09:45
all this [ __ ] the alcohol industry
01:09:47
gives you about it's you know one or two
01:09:49
drinks a day is good for you. No, it's
01:09:51
not. on balance. It's bad for
01:09:53
everything. And I'm not saying, you
01:09:54
know, you shouldn't drink cuz I used to
01:09:56
and and enjoyed it and all the rest of
01:09:58
that stuff,
01:09:58
>> but it's like just be aware. It's like
01:10:01
having a cigarette. Like it's a
01:10:02
carcinogen. And it's not one drink isn't
01:10:03
going to kill you, but the more you
01:10:04
drink, the more you increase the
01:10:07
likelihood of these things going wrong.
01:10:09
>> Well, well, I mean, it's a poison, isn't
01:10:11
it?
01:10:11
>> It it it pretty much is. I remember we
01:10:13
when we did the alcohol documentary, we
01:10:15
we interviewed Jeffrey Palmer who was
01:10:16
scary to interview
01:10:18
>> cuz you know how you sit down to do an
01:10:19
interview and there's always faffing
01:10:20
about as you're fixing stuff. He was
01:10:22
like he sat down and she right let's go
01:10:25
like ah
01:10:27
>> yeah we could be just going to faff
01:10:28
about with the lights a little bit and
01:10:29
Gab's going to do some of these things
01:10:31
and
01:10:32
>> batteries always need changing on TV.
01:10:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but he said that uh
01:10:36
one of the biggest regrets of his
01:10:38
political career was liberalizing the
01:10:40
alcohol laws. And he said that if you're
01:10:42
trying to bring alcohol into the country
01:10:43
now, we wouldn't we wouldn't have it.
01:10:45
And it is kind of weird that we freak
01:10:47
out about cannabis and MDMA and
01:10:50
mushrooms and all these things. Alcohol
01:10:52
is by far more harmful than any of those
01:10:54
things, you know, but for some reason
01:10:56
those classes of chemicals go, those are
01:10:58
very bad.
01:10:58
>> Yeah.
01:10:59
>> It lead to a corruption of society. Uh
01:11:01
but alcohol, that's fun. Mhm. So um yes
01:11:05
so so the original oncologist that you
01:11:07
saw that tells you 6 months to 12 months
01:11:10
surgeon
01:11:10
>> oh surgeon oh yeah on on your insistence
01:11:12
so you sort of like pushed
01:11:13
>> on the basis of him not actually having
01:11:14
all the information he had he had an
01:11:16
initial scan that did look like they'd
01:11:17
been spread to kind of liver possibly
01:11:19
spread to livers and lung and things
01:11:20
like that. So he had on that on on what
01:11:23
he had in front of him
01:11:24
>> um he made the call that we asked him to
01:11:26
make
01:11:27
>> yeah but it's looking a lot better now.
01:11:29
Did did that in did it annoy you when
01:11:31
the the Herald article came out after
01:11:32
you did the video and the the headline
01:11:34
seemed very sort of click bay? It said
01:11:36
Nigel lettered dead in 6 to 12 months or
01:11:38
something. Very dramatic.
01:11:40
>> I know. I had to ring people. I had to
01:11:41
ring my kids go. It's that's not
01:11:43
nothing's changed. Nothing has changed.
01:11:45
Um so yeah, like that was a bit that was
01:11:47
a bit clickbay. Uh and it's part of the
01:11:49
whole why I'm you know I want to kind of
01:11:52
try to manage the narrative more. But I
01:11:54
you know I mean it's part of the nature
01:11:56
of it that that happens. Often I feel
01:11:58
sorry for the journalist because the
01:11:59
journalists don't write the heading. The
01:12:00
journalist will write the article and
01:12:02
then some sub editor will come in and
01:12:04
put a click bay heading on and often I
01:12:05
think it drives them crazy.
01:12:07
>> Oh, it would if if you're a journalist
01:12:09
that manages to win someone over and
01:12:10
write a story about them and then they
01:12:12
get shhat on by whoever writes the
01:12:14
headline.
01:12:14
>> Yeah.
01:12:14
>> Um Yes. So how are things looking now?
01:12:16
So the tumor the the the treatment's
01:12:18
working. The tumor has shrunk 60%. Which
01:12:20
is massive. Is it going to is it going
01:12:22
to keep on shrinking? Is that the hope?
01:12:24
>> Yeah. So, so basically in the initial
01:12:28
initially I had a lymph node here with
01:12:30
cancer activity in it. I had some lymph
01:12:32
nodes between my lungs with cancer
01:12:34
activity in it. Lymph nodes around the
01:12:35
stomach with cancer activity in them.
01:12:37
Nodules in the paritinium which is
01:12:39
currently outlining of the stomach with
01:12:40
cancer activity and the tumor itself. So
01:12:43
after uh after um the first kind of
01:12:46
three months which is four rounds all
01:12:49
the cancer activity has gone from this
01:12:50
lymph node all the activity has gone
01:12:53
from here the activity all of the lymph
01:12:55
nodes around the stomach all of that's
01:12:56
gone there's only one nodule left now in
01:12:59
the parisium and that's got um that's
01:13:01
that's been reduced down to about 45% of
01:13:04
what it was uh and the stomach lining
01:13:06
has has the stomach tumor is thinner uh
01:13:09
and the activity has gone down by 60% so
01:13:11
it's like
01:13:12
>> incredible Oh Molly, I know the the PET
01:13:15
scans are like one of the things about
01:13:16
getting these results is it's like it's
01:13:19
just tender hooks, you know? You're just
01:13:21
thinking and the first one was really
01:13:23
important because the first one showed
01:13:25
how I was responding to chemotherapy.
01:13:26
And so it turns out um pretty damn well.
01:13:29
Um and I'm just really glad that there
01:13:33
are people sitting in rooms working this
01:13:36
stuff out. And I hope they have no work
01:13:37
life balance. I hope they ignore their
01:13:39
families and neglect theirelves, their
01:13:42
health, and everything else and just
01:13:43
keep working. Um cuz they're doing some
01:13:46
amazing stuff. Oncology is changing so
01:13:48
quickly. And this is the thing like
01:13:50
every six months that you're you're
01:13:51
around, new stuff is coming along. Um so
01:13:55
yeah, like actually doing real well. So
01:13:58
now I feel a lot of the time when I'm
01:14:00
feeling sick and I've got another, you
01:14:01
know, 11 weeks of that. Um
01:14:03
>> it's because of the chemo. And so I do
01:14:04
have to just keep thinking this is good
01:14:06
means it's working. This is good.
01:14:08
another 11 weeks of that. What What do
01:14:09
you mean?
01:14:10
>> So, I've got another um I'm halfway
01:14:13
through the the first of the next four
01:14:14
rounds. I've got four four four more
01:14:16
rounds to go counting the one I'm in.
01:14:17
And so, sort of by the beginning of
01:14:19
November, the um I'll be done with the
01:14:21
worst of the chemo stuff. And then it's
01:14:23
just the other thing. So, the
01:14:24
imunotherapy and hopefully the Huma,
01:14:26
which don't have all the side effects of
01:14:28
chemotherapy.
01:14:29
>> Well, you I mean you you know you the
01:14:31
man sitting in front of me now, you look
01:14:33
remarkably healthy.
01:14:34
>> Yeah. like I feel when I'm not having
01:14:36
chemo the really bad chemo side effects
01:14:39
I actually feel much better than I did
01:14:40
before. So I don't have the same
01:14:41
symptoms that I did before.
01:14:43
>> Um and all that kind of stuff. And
01:14:44
that's part of the problem is that now I
01:14:46
just get bored
01:14:47
>> because when you get to a few good days
01:14:49
I instantly get bored because I'm just
01:14:51
sitting around.
01:14:52
>> Um but it's hard to kind of commit to
01:14:54
doing anything too much because you know
01:14:56
there are going to be weeks where you
01:14:57
don't feel good.
01:14:58
>> Um but you know I get to hang out with
01:15:01
Natalie a lot and we see friends a lot
01:15:03
and that's kind of nice. It's like I
01:15:04
people come over and you have coffee and
01:15:05
chat in the afternoon and that's not
01:15:06
something I did before. Um so there's
01:15:09
lots of you know there are lots of good
01:15:10
things about it. We really my hair
01:15:11
doesn't grow random but it hasn't fallen
01:15:14
out.
01:15:14
>> Hasn't fallen out which is good. I'm
01:15:16
pleased about that. Um but it doesn't
01:15:17
grow. Like I had a haircut just the
01:15:19
other day and that was the first one of
01:15:20
four months and I usually get them in
01:15:22
every every six weeks. So the turbo
01:15:24
cancer is definitely
01:15:26
>> it's bad for barbers. Barbers are going
01:15:28
man
01:15:29
>> terrible for
01:15:30
>> what's happening with haircuts?
01:15:31
Everyone's got the turbo cancer from the
01:15:32
vaccines and the hair doesn't grow.
01:15:34
>> Yeah. Um I had this uh woman on the the
01:15:37
podcast earlier this year called Tracy
01:15:38
Hickman who um was very sick with cancer
01:15:40
and she chose to um die on a on a
01:15:43
certain date and um everything went
01:15:45
exactly as she as she had hoped which is
01:15:47
>> just wonderful. Um yeah. Have have you
01:15:51
thought about that? like if you got
01:15:52
really sick or unwell, would you?
01:15:54
>> I think um what what you don't want to
01:15:56
be is a burden to the people around you,
01:15:58
but like basically I'm I I'm not uh No,
01:16:02
I wouldn't do that. Like I'm I'm here
01:16:05
and I'm going to stay here and I'm doing
01:16:08
whatever the hell I can no matter how
01:16:09
sick it makes me because um you know cuz
01:16:12
like it's I want to be every second of
01:16:16
that I can get with Natalie is like
01:16:18
that's a win for me. So, I'm I can't
01:16:21
imagine ever getting to the point and
01:16:22
it's different for everyone and people
01:16:24
make their own decisions and I think
01:16:25
that's all good. Um, it's just not going
01:16:27
to be me. I'm going to be like kicking
01:16:29
away, kicking away, kicking away.
01:16:32
>> Oh, happy to hear that [ __ ] You love
01:16:33
Natalie, eh? Oh my god.
01:16:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really do. Like
01:16:37
really do. Um, and we had a we got
01:16:39
married. We had this really lovely
01:16:40
wedding. Uh, and so it was kind of weird
01:16:42
that it was six month almost six months
01:16:44
the day that I sort of I got married
01:16:46
that we got this diagnosis.
01:16:49
Yeah, I really do. Like it's like um and
01:16:51
we kind of met at just the right time in
01:16:53
our lives because if we'd met earlier, I
01:16:56
don't know that it kind of would work
01:16:58
out, but like I was kind of quiet,
01:16:59
nerdy, and she was like a super, you
01:17:01
know, popular party person.
01:17:02
>> It's all about timing, isn't it?
01:17:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's like it's the right
01:17:05
time. And now we've got these five kids
01:17:07
who are all awesome and we we've got,
01:17:10
you know, the plan is to get old and
01:17:12
gray together. Well,
01:17:14
>> already gray.
01:17:15
>> Just to get older. Um, hey, I put on
01:17:18
Instagram that you're coming over and
01:17:19
there's a a bunch of questions here. Um,
01:17:22
>> Nigel spoke, again, as I said at the
01:17:24
beginning, most of them were like just
01:17:25
people just saying, you know, how much
01:17:26
love they've got for you and
01:17:28
>> the value you've brought to their life.
01:17:30
Uh, Nigel spoke at my work a few years
01:17:32
ago. One thing that stood out and
01:17:34
changed my life was how to allocate time
01:17:36
and his detailed exercise in working out
01:17:38
how much of your timeline is spent on
01:17:40
must do things like sleeping, eating,
01:17:41
cleaning,
01:17:42
>> and then what time is left for the
01:17:43
things you want to do. Um, I'd like to
01:17:45
know, has his perspective changed since
01:17:47
the cancer diagnosis?
01:17:49
>> Yeah. Well, no. Uh, in the sense that I
01:17:51
still believe all of those things. I
01:17:53
just believe them and live them a lot
01:17:54
more now. Um,
01:17:55
>> and so, um, yeah. Yeah. I I I like time
01:18:00
now is I really think about that and I
01:18:03
I'll think about that
01:18:05
>> cuz cuz for me like it's not unless some
01:18:07
wonder drug comes like it's not curable.
01:18:09
It's going to be manage and maintain it
01:18:11
and keep going. Um, and so I really
01:18:14
think about how I'm exper I mean the
01:18:16
nice thing about having cancer is you
01:18:17
can do whatever the [ __ ] you want. Like
01:18:18
I can say I'm tired going for a nap now
01:18:20
and just get up and leave the room or
01:18:22
it's like people come over. Can we come
01:18:24
and visit? No.
01:18:26
Or should we leave? No, you shouldn't
01:18:28
leave. You have to stay because I've got
01:18:30
cancer. I want to talk to people. Um, so
01:18:33
so there's that. But I do think like you
01:18:36
know I I when I eventually get back into
01:18:38
work, there's just some things I won't
01:18:40
do. So like I a lot of my time before
01:18:43
this was I travel a lot. You have to go
01:18:45
away the night before and sometimes you
01:18:46
away for a few days. Um we've kind of
01:18:48
decided that I'm really not going to do
01:18:50
that very much at all and if I do go
01:18:51
away we'll both go away together and go
01:18:52
and hang out in the place and do the
01:18:54
thing. And so I do think a lot more
01:18:56
about that and and it's it is that idea
01:18:58
that like we don't think about dying.
01:19:00
We're all we're all dying. Some of us
01:19:02
are just closer to it than others. And
01:19:04
um some of us it'll be by accident. Some
01:19:06
of us some of it be by illness. But um
01:19:09
you do really have to think about okay
01:19:11
if that happened to me like if and be
01:19:13
lots of people think man I'm glad I'm
01:19:15
not him and that's a good thing I'm glad
01:19:17
it's not you too I wouldn't wish this on
01:19:18
anyone um but you should think but what
01:19:21
if it was me if it was me
01:19:24
>> do I have my legal [ __ ] in order do I
01:19:27
have insurance like will my family be
01:19:29
all right what are the protections I've
01:19:30
got in place for them um and who am I
01:19:33
spending time with and how am I doing it
01:19:34
like so I would do a lot of kind of
01:19:36
after dinner speaking Um, and you go
01:19:39
along, you have dinner, do your speech,
01:19:40
and stay for the night. Um, now I'm I'm
01:19:42
I'm not going to stay for the night. I'm
01:19:43
going to go along. I'm going to do my
01:19:44
thing, and then I'm going to high tell
01:19:46
it out there and go home and be with
01:19:47
family because that's kind of that's
01:19:48
practicing what I preach. So, yeah, I
01:19:50
think about it, but I I really think
01:19:52
about it now.
01:19:53
>> Yeah. Someone said, um, are there any,
01:19:55
uh, lessons he's learned, um, from the
01:19:58
diagnosis that he wish he realized
01:19:59
earlier in life?
01:20:01
>> Um, no. No, actually, there haven't
01:20:04
been. really what what's been
01:20:06
interesting is, you know, because I do
01:20:08
talk a lot about kind of resilience and
01:20:10
all that sort of stuff. Um,
01:20:13
but I've never like really been tested
01:20:15
and there's something about when a guy
01:20:16
says you'll be dead in maybe in 6
01:20:18
months. No, don't beep at me. That's my
01:20:21
little amp saying take some stuff. No,
01:20:23
I've got cancer. I don't have to.
01:20:25
Actually, I do. That doesn't make any
01:20:26
sense.
01:20:27
>> Yeah. Do you need a break?
01:20:29
>> No, no, no. I'm good. Um, but yeah, so
01:20:31
so um and I completed the chemo brain.
01:20:33
What the hell was I saying then?
01:20:34
Something.
01:20:35
>> Um Oh, like lessons since the diagnosis
01:20:38
that you wish.
01:20:38
>> No. So, I haven't I haven't changed
01:20:40
anything that I thought, but I've like
01:20:42
I've really had to really kind of double
01:20:44
down and focus on how I apply it and see
01:20:47
if those things do actually work. And it
01:20:49
turns out when you're facing like some
01:20:50
super big stuff like you could die, um
01:20:53
it works. Like it does work. It's the
01:20:55
that's the the thing that's got me
01:20:57
through is um
01:20:58
>> just having those basic principles that
01:21:00
when I don't know what to do, I fall
01:21:02
back on those things.
01:21:03
I I feel terrible. What am I going to
01:21:04
do? Do something nice for someone else.
01:21:06
I I feel lost and depressed and
01:21:08
hopeless. What What can you control
01:21:10
right now? I can't control the future,
01:21:11
but I can pat the dog. Okay, let's do
01:21:13
that.
01:21:14
>> Yeah, it seems like you're very
01:21:16
optimistic now, but there must have been
01:21:17
like a period of there where where you
01:21:19
were sort of staring death in the face.
01:21:20
Um, any big surprises about confronting
01:21:22
death?
01:21:23
>> Um, see, no, I'm not scared of dying
01:21:25
>> like at all. Like I don't what I don't
01:21:27
want the thing that frightens me. The
01:21:28
thing I don't like thinking about is is
01:21:30
is leaving Natalie alone. But I'm not
01:21:34
scared of dying because it's like I'm
01:21:36
not I'm not a deeply kind of spiritual
01:21:37
person. Like a little bit of woo woo is
01:21:39
all right. Like I meditate a little bit
01:21:40
of woo woo on top of that. That's good.
01:21:42
But um I'm not a deeply spiritual
01:21:45
person. So it's like I go to sleep every
01:21:46
night and I sleep for eight hours a
01:21:48
night and I don't I wasn't I don't
01:21:49
remember it. I wasn't here for the
01:21:51
first, you know, 17 point something
01:21:53
billion years of the universe and I'm
01:21:55
not feeling traumatized about that. So I
01:21:58
know that actually for me I've got the
01:22:00
easy part. I'm either living and getting
01:22:02
better and going on for a long time or
01:22:04
it takes a turn and it goes bad and I
01:22:07
die. If that happens it'll be the people
01:22:09
around me that have to carry that
01:22:10
because the process of dying itself that
01:22:12
doesn't frighten me. The idea of being
01:22:14
dead doesn't frighten me. I don't think
01:22:15
I'm going to get up there and you know
01:22:18
someone's going to cast me down.
01:22:19
Probably
01:22:20
>> the antivaxes will be up there.
01:22:23
>> Do you do you Yeah. What do you think
01:22:24
happens when you die? Do you think
01:22:26
there's an afterlife or anything? I'm
01:22:27
just a really pragmatic biological
01:22:28
person. No, I think that we're
01:22:30
biological beings. We're made of bits of
01:22:32
stars from, you know, the big bang 17
01:22:34
billion years ago. And what happens is,
01:22:36
you know, you come from it, you go back
01:22:37
to that. And so, no, I don't think that
01:22:39
I don't have this idea that there'll be
01:22:41
some, you know, it'd be cool if it was,
01:22:43
you know, like if a nice idea. Um, I
01:22:47
just don't actually don't actually
01:22:48
believe it.
01:22:49
>> Yeah. I'm I'm much the same. It's the
01:22:52
Steven Hawking theory. We're like a
01:22:54
computer and you get switched off and
01:22:55
that's it
01:22:56
>> because it happens every night. Yeah.
01:22:57
Like you go to sleep and you're not
01:22:58
thinking ah that was terrible and no
01:23:01
you're just asleep and if you don't
01:23:03
remember your dreams then there's a
01:23:04
whole period of where essentially you
01:23:06
didn't exist
01:23:07
>> in your own consciousness for that
01:23:08
period of time and so the idea that that
01:23:11
could extend longer. It's like well that
01:23:12
won't be that I won't have to bear the
01:23:15
>> the that the that will be borne by the
01:23:19
people around me and the people that
01:23:20
care about me and that's the bit that I
01:23:21
don't like.
01:23:22
you why um why is your big concern about
01:23:24
leaving Natalie?
01:23:26
>> Uh cuz cuz
01:23:28
>> just the whole little
01:23:29
>> I hate I hate the idea of her being
01:23:31
alone when she won't be. She's got lots
01:23:33
of friends and stuff and but I don't
01:23:35
like the idea of of not being there, of
01:23:37
her missing me and not being able to
01:23:39
help and all of that. So that's the
01:23:41
that's the that's the one bit of all of
01:23:42
this that is the that's the intolerably
01:23:46
painful part of it for me. Um
01:23:49
>> yeah. And any FOMO?
01:23:54
>> No.
01:23:54
>> No. I've been
01:23:55
>> That's what it would be. I reckon if I
01:23:56
was in your your your shoes, that's what
01:23:58
it would be for me. It' be the, you
01:23:59
know, FOMO about Yeah. the stuff that
01:24:01
I'm not going to get to see.
01:24:03
>> There's there's all of that like this
01:24:04
fear there's the there is all of that.
01:24:08
Um, but again, like I'm I lucky the
01:24:11
right word, but like, you know, all of
01:24:13
the kids are pretty much older and
01:24:15
>> people and in their life. And that's the
01:24:18
thing about like if if you if you're a
01:24:19
parent, if you're lucky, you don't get
01:24:21
to see how it ends for your kids. And so
01:24:23
that's something everyone has to kind of
01:24:25
deal with. My dad died um
01:24:28
20 something years ago. And um
01:24:30
>> yeah, bowel cancer, right?
01:24:31
>> Yeah, it was bowel cancer. And so we
01:24:33
just had, you know, my oldest was just a
01:24:35
little guy then and um
01:24:37
and my my second one been born, he was
01:24:41
just like a tiny little baby. And so dad
01:24:42
missed all of this stuff since then that
01:24:46
he would have enjoyed and all this time
01:24:47
and stuff,
01:24:48
>> but it's like that's the way that things
01:24:52
kind of sometimes happen. Um,
01:24:54
>> someone has to go first. It's like
01:24:55
that's how it goes.
01:24:57
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, do do you have like a
01:24:59
bucket list or anything like that? I
01:25:01
mean, time time's like running out for
01:25:04
all of us, but um, I suppose a diagnosis
01:25:06
like this crystallizes things a bit.
01:25:07
I've been where I've been really
01:25:08
fortunate in life is that pretty much
01:25:10
everything that I've wanted to do
01:25:13
>> done. So like when I was little I wanted
01:25:15
to publish a book or I did that and
01:25:16
>> many times
01:25:17
>> many times and then wanted to go to the
01:25:19
Antarctic and I did that and that's a
01:25:20
pretty miraculous thing. And I've, you
01:25:22
know, my oldest is really into traveling
01:25:24
to adventurous and strange places. And
01:25:26
so um I've been to some pretty amazing
01:25:32
>> I've you know I'm traveling through Iran
01:25:34
and um we went to this thing called
01:25:35
Babach Castle and it always involves
01:25:38
walking up some massive bloody hill and
01:25:41
um like 600 steps then walking way off
01:25:45
into the back of beyond these mountains
01:25:47
in Iran and then you but you come to
01:25:49
this bit where you come through this
01:25:50
little cutting and it's like a scene
01:25:51
from Lord of the Rings this abandoned
01:25:54
castle perched on a cliff face and so
01:25:55
I've done all of that. I've jumped out
01:25:58
of planes for telly's men I've got to
01:26:00
do. I've jumped out of planes. I've got
01:26:03
just so there's nothing there's nothing
01:26:06
I have on my bucket list. My list now is
01:26:08
just about time with people that I care
01:26:09
about. I I don't think ah I wish I'd
01:26:10
gone to there because I don't
01:26:12
>> you know I mean there are places in the
01:26:13
world that I haven't been to but it's
01:26:14
like I don't I don't feel that you know
01:26:16
I can go or not go. It doesn't really
01:26:18
>> Google images.
01:26:20
>> Um what about regrets? Any regrets? Um,
01:26:24
yeah. I mean, I think most people I
01:26:26
think most people do. Like, I wish I'd
01:26:27
known earlier in life. I wish I'd worked
01:26:29
out earlier in life that actually you're
01:26:31
just you and just relax into that. Like,
01:26:34
I was I've always been quite I was quite
01:26:36
shy as a kid. Uh, and as an adolescent,
01:26:40
I was more of a kind of an introvert and
01:26:42
stuff. And so I've always kind of
01:26:45
oh I wish I' and you can never know this
01:26:48
cuz that's part of the process but I
01:26:50
wish I'd kind of known like you're just
01:26:51
you and that's enough like it's fine
01:26:53
just relax with that. That would have
01:26:54
made things a lot easier.
01:26:56
>> I think a lot of that just comes with um
01:26:57
age. You sort of grow into yourself.
01:26:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just realize what's
01:27:00
important.
01:27:01
>> Well you have to cuz like [ __ ] I'm not
01:27:02
changing like it's just this. It's like
01:27:04
oh [ __ ]
01:27:05
>> Um and yeah so I think you do. I think
01:27:08
you did. But it's been it'd be nice if I
01:27:10
could have known that earlier, but no
01:27:11
one does cuz that's what you work out. I
01:27:12
wish I'd there were times I think I'd
01:27:14
done been more doing work like I missed
01:27:17
my dad's 60th because I was working
01:27:21
we took his adolescence off into the on
01:27:22
these 10day wildness programs. I was
01:27:24
doing one of those instead of his and
01:27:25
that kind of stuff like I think some my
01:27:27
prioritizing has been a bit wrong.
01:27:29
>> Yeah.
01:27:30
>> Um
01:27:31
>> but you know No.
01:27:33
>> Yeah. Like Sonatra eh?
01:27:35
>> Yeah. a few but too few to mention.
01:27:38
>> Yeah. It's like there's no point because
01:27:39
like everyone messes things up and of
01:27:41
course there are things I could go back
01:27:42
and do differently but all of the
01:27:45
>> I just think it all leads to kind of
01:27:46
where you are. There's nothing there's
01:27:48
nothing I'd go back and undo because
01:27:50
that's led to where I am now. And
01:27:52
actually apart from cancer,
01:27:55
I'm pretty happy with where I am now.
01:27:57
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. And yeah, [ __ ] up.
01:27:59
It's the human experience, isn't it?
01:28:00
>> Yeah, it really is. It's like that's
01:28:01
where you learn the most. And it's where
01:28:03
I've always learned the most. It's like
01:28:04
you [ __ ] things up, you make mistakes,
01:28:06
you get things wrong. Um, it's like, oh,
01:28:07
that was that was pretty smart.
01:28:09
>> What about legacy? Is legacy something
01:28:10
you give much thought to or anything?
01:28:12
>> No, cuz it's like I don't care. I'll be
01:28:14
dead. Like, no. You know, like, no. Um,
01:28:19
>> I don't know. I feel like it's an ego
01:28:21
thing. Like just no one wants to be
01:28:22
forgotten, right?
01:28:23
>> Yeah. I'm I'm comfortable with the fact
01:28:25
that I'll be completely forgotten. It's
01:28:26
like in a hundred years like no one's
01:28:28
going to know who any of us were. Like
01:28:29
there's the Shakespearees and those
01:28:31
sorts of people will know who they were.
01:28:33
But for the rest of us, no one's going
01:28:35
to know. Um,
01:28:36
>> it's a funny thing, isn't it? Even like
01:28:38
the most famous person in the world, say
01:28:39
Taylor Swift, 500 years from now, no
01:28:41
one's going to know.
01:28:42
>> David Bowie, you know, it's like David
01:28:44
Bowie like who died of cancer.
01:28:47
>> It's like even if you're David Bowie,
01:28:49
you die. Even Bowie dies. If Bowie dies,
01:28:52
we're all there's no hope for any of us
01:28:54
because if anyone was going to not, it'
01:28:55
be him. But
01:28:56
>> yeah, no one gets out alive. No.
01:28:58
>> Um, are you proud of yourself?
01:29:01
Um, I'm I'm proud of things that I've
01:29:04
done and I'm proud of things I've done
01:29:06
and I'm also conscious of the fact that
01:29:08
I'm
01:29:10
it's always tempered with the idea that
01:29:12
these are things I've done with other
01:29:13
people and it's not false humility or
01:29:15
modesty or anything like that. It's just
01:29:17
the freaking truth. Like everything I've
01:29:19
ever done that's been of any worth or
01:29:22
good at all has been done with other
01:29:24
people. It's not all just me. And so
01:29:27
because you write the book and your
01:29:28
name's in the front or you present the
01:29:30
TV show and say you're the face that
01:29:32
people see, there is that tendency for
01:29:34
people to see it as being your thing.
01:29:36
But I'm I'm hugely aware that it's not
01:29:39
like it's
01:29:40
>> I've I've worked a lot with this guy
01:29:41
Mitchell Hawks and Arwin Connor who's um
01:29:45
Mitchell's director and Arwin's a
01:29:46
producer and like they're just freaking
01:29:48
geniuses and they're amazingly good at
01:29:50
what they do. And so my success in TV
01:29:53
was off the back of everyone else. I do
01:29:56
think and radar said to Radar said this
01:29:58
once that you know he said don't [ __ ]
01:30:00
this up because if we do the only one
01:30:01
that doesn't work again is me. You know
01:30:03
presenters get axed everyone else keeps
01:30:06
going.
01:30:07
>> Yeah. This has been great. This has been
01:30:10
so much fun. How so this has been like
01:30:12
90 minutes. Is is this um exhausting for
01:30:14
you or has this been cathartic? Is it
01:30:16
just
01:30:17
>> No, it's not exhausting at all. Like
01:30:18
it's a weird thing to sit around and
01:30:19
talk about yourself cuz I don't
01:30:21
generally like I cuz I just don't um
01:30:24
>> Yeah, I I know that I'm I I listen to
01:30:26
every podcast I could find about you and
01:30:28
it's um there's very very few out there.
01:30:30
Um so I was um just incredibly grateful
01:30:33
when you said you'd do it.
01:30:35
>> Well, no, it's like part of it is like
01:30:37
people are all these lovely people have
01:30:39
been concerned and so I do want to kind
01:30:40
of let people know that actually I'm
01:30:41
doing all right and I do appreciate the
01:30:44
um really appreciate the nice things
01:30:46
that people have said. Um,
01:30:49
>> yeah, it's an outpouring of love.
01:30:51
>> Yeah, it's really nice. And it it, you
01:30:53
know, it does make me think everybody
01:30:55
that gets cancer should get this from
01:30:57
everyone cuz it's really nice. So, it's
01:31:00
it's about just letting people know that
01:31:02
actually I'm doing all right. And um and
01:31:04
I do think there are I kind of have some
01:31:06
ideas of some some I had a bookie idea
01:31:10
this morning about
01:31:12
some big ideas and principles of things
01:31:14
that kind of work and sharing those with
01:31:16
people because I think None of them are
01:31:17
mine. They're all been around for a long
01:31:19
time. But I just think there are things
01:31:20
that So, it's been like it's it's
01:31:22
interesting and it's and it's fun. Um,
01:31:24
and it's it's like it's the one time you
01:31:26
can talk about yourself and it's like ah
01:31:28
>> this is that's the purpose of it. Like
01:31:30
if I don't this is not going to work.
01:31:32
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:31:33
>> It makes it a difficult podcast. I
01:31:34
noticed you um um getting emotional
01:31:37
there. Like has the have you become more
01:31:40
emotional with the diagnosis like with I
01:31:42
suppose like tears of gratitude?
01:31:44
>> Yeah. like I it was I mean it's really
01:31:45
been lovely like the stuff that people
01:31:47
have said um and you do I think you do
01:31:52
become I remember Dheimmer talked about
01:31:55
this like he would he found himself
01:31:57
crying over song lyrics
01:31:59
>> and like I I
01:32:02
found myself doing that like I was
01:32:04
watching VEP
01:32:06
and I forget what something weirdly for
01:32:08
VEP because nothing nice ever happens in
01:32:10
VE something nice happened and I got
01:32:12
quite tearful over that and um In what
01:32:15
>> in VEP that you know the show um Julie
01:32:18
Lou Drifus she's the vice president
01:32:20
sitcom it's really great um and all of
01:32:22
the characters are terrible people they
01:32:24
just apart from Gary who's lovely all of
01:32:26
them are terrible um but there was
01:32:28
something in that that sort of made me
01:32:29
uh a bit sort of uh tearful so you do
01:32:32
you do kind of I do feel more about
01:32:34
stuff I mean
01:32:36
I'm always been like I'm I don't have an
01:32:38
issue with kind of crying getting upset
01:32:39
about stuff and getting getting weepy
01:32:41
over things because I think that's all
01:32:43
that's all good and it's part of life.
01:32:44
Um, but you certainly I think the chemo
01:32:47
process and the cancer process and
01:32:49
re-evaluating things and thinking about
01:32:51
your life and how much time you've got
01:32:53
and how much more you want and you know
01:32:56
being exhausted and being happy and all
01:32:58
of that just see that was a chemo
01:33:00
thought that started as an idea that
01:33:03
started as a well-rounded idea and
01:33:05
halfway through it I completely lost it
01:33:07
and I thought
01:33:09
keep talking it'll come back and then it
01:33:11
didn't. and I thought, "No, it's just
01:33:12
going to trail off now." And that's
01:33:13
exactly what it did. Yeah.
01:33:15
>> [ __ ]
01:33:15
>> Is Is there anything that we um we
01:33:17
haven't discussed today that you you
01:33:19
wanted to.
01:33:20
>> No, I think just make sure everyone out
01:33:22
there
01:33:23
>> that you um health insurance if you can
01:33:26
afford it, if you can afford it, income
01:33:28
protection if you can afford it, and
01:33:29
life it feels like a luxury or it feels
01:33:32
like something that's a waste of money.
01:33:34
And it is until you need it. And one in
01:33:37
three people get freaking cancer. I'm
01:33:39
not saying that to be doomy and gloomy.
01:33:40
I'm just saying get your affairs in
01:33:43
order and as much as you're able to in
01:33:45
the circumstances that you've got, make
01:33:47
sure all that practical stuff is sorted
01:33:48
out. Like that's the most if we if I
01:33:51
hadn't done some of the things I've
01:33:52
done, it would have been a million times
01:33:54
harder. And I feel again, this is the
01:33:57
inequity of the health system that there
01:33:59
are a lot of people who have got
01:34:01
freaking a million times harder than me
01:34:03
because they're dealing with not only
01:34:05
the cancer, the treatment stuff, but not
01:34:06
being able to get access to some of
01:34:08
those other drugs and um just how do I
01:34:10
pay the bills? And that was my first
01:34:12
thought was like, [ __ ] how am I how do
01:34:15
I pay the bills? I had no idea what we
01:34:17
were at with insurance stuff. And so um
01:34:19
I rang my guy Andy straight away. He was
01:34:22
literally my first call.
01:34:25
That's That's bleak, isn't it really?
01:34:27
But it's a reality, I guess. Um
01:34:30
>> Yeah. God, selfless, eh? Totally
01:34:31
selfless. Um there was Oh, a friend of
01:34:34
mine, Fraser Grew, you you met him in um
01:34:37
May 2023. Uh he's doing a thing called
01:34:39
the 10,000 Dreams project where he's
01:34:41
going around filming, filming a bunch of
01:34:42
people about their dreams. Can you
01:34:44
remember what you said to him in May
01:34:45
2023?
01:34:46
>> No.
01:34:46
>> Um your dream then was uh to make the
01:34:48
world a fairer place.
01:34:50
>> Oh,
01:34:50
>> yeah. Would it still be the same now?
01:34:52
>> Uh yeah, it would be. Clearly I didn't
01:34:54
achieve that, did I? Doesn't feel like
01:34:56
that that's gone so well. I have to get
01:34:57
a more achievable one. Um, uh, no, I
01:35:01
mean, I think I think it's really easy
01:35:03
to get lost in the fact that the world's
01:35:04
[ __ ] and everyone's crazy. And I think
01:35:07
that since the pandemic, people are sort
01:35:10
of there's an element of people that are
01:35:11
kind of angry. Like there's an angry
01:35:14
component to that whole antivax, anti
01:35:16
that I find quite disturbing and a bit
01:35:18
sad because they feel obviously put
01:35:20
upon. Um, but actually if you look at
01:35:25
the statistics, the world is a gentler
01:35:27
place than it's ever been. There are
01:35:29
there are less wars. You're less likely
01:35:31
to die by violence. You're less likely
01:35:33
to be the victim of a violent crime. And
01:35:35
all of these things are true. It just
01:35:36
doesn't feel true. It feels like the
01:35:38
world's just going to hell because we
01:35:40
got Trump and we got people yelling
01:35:42
stuff and crazy things are happening all
01:35:44
over the place. But actually, it's not.
01:35:46
The world's actually pretty nice. and
01:35:49
and when people are having trouble,
01:35:51
people help them. And so I kind of I
01:35:55
just think we just need to kind of just
01:35:57
stay focused on the fact that we're far
01:35:59
from perfect and things are still pretty
01:36:00
messed up, but we're getting better.
01:36:03
>> We're doing our best. We're chugging
01:36:04
along. You know, climate change. Oh
01:36:07
yeah, that's a thing. But someone will
01:36:08
someone will work at it soon. I mean,
01:36:10
>> everyone, that's what I'm banking on as
01:36:12
well. The smart people do it.
01:36:14
>> The smart people do it. That's what
01:36:15
every time I go to these have some fancy
01:36:17
scan. I always say to people do scan,
01:36:19
man. I'm so glad that people like you
01:36:22
were sitting around and inventing
01:36:24
machines and training the rest of us.
01:36:26
We've just been watching Netflix and
01:36:27
eating chips and you guys have been
01:36:29
building these amazing machines and
01:36:31
training yourself. I'm glad that you're
01:36:32
not like lazy like the rest of us. And
01:36:34
it's true. There are people just coming
01:36:36
up with solutions. We'll solve it. It's
01:36:39
the world's not going to end.
01:36:41
>> Oh, I love that. Oh, Nigel Ladder, thank
01:36:44
you so much. you are a an absolute
01:36:46
national treasure.
01:36:48
>> Um
01:36:49
>> can we do let's do a follow-up like two
01:36:51
or three years from now.
01:36:52
>> Yeah, absolutely. We do a followup two
01:36:53
three years from now. Yeah, that would
01:36:54
be good. Be good. I'm sure we'll learn
01:36:56
some more things two or three years from
01:36:57
now.
01:36:58
>> Um I look I look forward to that.
01:37:00
>> Yeah. Oh, I appreciate you so much and
01:37:01
on behalf of um everyone in New Zealand.
01:37:04
Thank you so much.
01:37:04
>> Oh, thank you, Tom. It's been fun. I've
01:37:06
enjoyed it.