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Jake Bailey, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Fantastic to be here, Dom. Thanks for
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having me. E,
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>> it's great to connect. You like just
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popped a vocal zone like 8 seconds
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before we started.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. No, these these are good. I
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do a lot of um I do a lot of talking and
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you sort of sit these in the side of
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your mouth and it means you can I don't
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know do a lot of talking. So that's um
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that that's that's that's what that's
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for.
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>> Hey, it's great to have you here. You've
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got a a brand new book out called The
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Comeback Code: The Power of Resilience
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When the Going Gets Tough. Um long time
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between drinks.
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>> Yeah, it has been [laughter]
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>> like 10 years. You think a book? Is this
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your thing now? A book every 10 years?
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>> Well, I I don't know. I wouldn't get
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through very many if it was, I don't
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think. I mean, the book has been Yeah,
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it's definitely been a lot of years in
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the making. Um, and I guess in a sense
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it sort of had to be. It's kind of the
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product of the last nine years of of
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learning and study and and and yeah, the
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opportunity that I've had to I guess
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work with and learn from people all
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around the globe and from different
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walks of life about how we get through
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tough times. Um so yeah, it's been a
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long time in the making and it's really
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really satisfying to sort of have it out
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there now into the world.
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>> Yeah, resilience is like a a big um buzz
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word now, isn't it?
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>> Massive. And in your book you talk about
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the um
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>> uh the four model S.
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>> 4S model. Yep.
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>> The what? the 4S model.
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>> Yeah. Of um constructing resilience. So
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what's that?
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>> So the 4S model is basically the way
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that I have come to uh teach and explain
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around resilience. It's effectively four
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things uh which we know from I guess
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studies and and research and psychology
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are just proven to make people better at
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getting through tough times. And so I
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guess you know resilience the way to
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view and think about resilience is that
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it is just like any other skill. It's
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something which you can learn and
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develop and improve upon through
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practice. Um but particularly if you
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sort of practice around specific skills
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that we know know work. So the four S's
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are I guess four of these key pillars of
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of what go towards creating resilience
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and making people good at getting
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through tough times sort of framed up
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and and and packaged in a way which
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hopefully people can um understand and
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relate to uh which they can retain and
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then which they can go on to I guess
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utilize and actually put into practice
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in life because I think often when it
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comes to learning about these things
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when it comes to learning about these
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kind of you know really grandiose
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concepts a lot of the time they're not
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particularly tangible. the four S's is
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hopefully a way to to to get it across
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and communicate it to people in a way
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which they can yeah actually get use out
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of in life.
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>> So S number one slow down.
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>> Yes. First S slowing down. Um and I
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guess at its core the idea of of slowing
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down is basically to take um a problem
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or a challenge or a piece of adversity
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and to try and break it down into a
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series of smaller more manageable
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bite-sized pieces. Um, we find that
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people who have this ability to, I
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guess, face things on their own terms,
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whether that's getting through it, you
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know, a month at a time, a week at a
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time, a day at a time, an hour at a
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time, they do considerably better at
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getting through those tough times than
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people who, I guess, take things on as
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one big lump sum, one big challenge.
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Because I'm sure you would have
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experienced this many times in life, you
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know, when something bad happens, when
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when you're going through a really tough
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time, there is the sense of overwhelm,
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right? It's how am I going to get
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through this, you know, this day or this
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this week or or even this next hour. And
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hopefully the answer for you has been,
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you know, I'm just going to focus on
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getting through to the next milestone.
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Um, and even, you know, you were talking
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about running just before off air and
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that's something which I'm sure you do
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with running as well. It's definitely
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something which I do with my running is
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that when you go into a race or you go
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into a long run or a training block or
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whatever it may be, you just focus on
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getting through to the next aid station
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or focus on getting through the next
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kilometer instead of trying to take on
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this big massive thing as as one hole.
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>> Um, because it's it's a hell of a lot
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harder to get through it. um when you
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frame it in that way which makes it
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appear so much bigger and more massive
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and and I guess insurmountable um than
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than if you take it piece by piece.
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>> Yeah. Unmanageable. That's the the only
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way to do it. Um it's like that that
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joke um you know how do you eat an
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elephant?
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>> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And actually it's sort
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of I talk in the book there's you know
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about a million different really really
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bad metaphors that psychologists have
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put to this and it's Yeah. eating an
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elephant, you know, one bite at a time
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or, you know, a masterful painting is
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made up of a million individual small
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strokes sort of thing. Like if you have
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a look online, there's there's, you
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know, there's a whole bunch of of of of
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metaphors and and and simileies which
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have been put to this, most of which are
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really really cheesy. But at its core,
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you know, we know that people who have
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this ability to just face things on
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their own terms, they just do better at
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getting through tough times. I I think
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for most people they can understand and
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relate to I guess why that would why
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that would be
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>> you know I love this because um yeah
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tough times are to be expected like life
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is life's a [ __ ] [ __ ] show
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>> 100% absolutely and you know in
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psychology we call that inevitable
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adversity right it's this idea that
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>> you know tough times and and adversity
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and hardship can't be avoided it's not
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something which you can sort of outwit
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or outsmart through you know luck or or
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being a good person or always doing the
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right thing or it's not something which
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you can avoid. You know, tough times are
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just an inevitable, unavoidable part of
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of life. And suffering and and things
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being pretty [ __ ] sometimes is just how
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it goes. That's not a bad thing. Um but
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if we can equip ourselves with the
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skills and tools to to get through it
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more effectively and overcome it more
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efficiently, we basically set ourselves
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up to have a more enjoyable, more
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successful, better life as a result of
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that.
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>> Yeah. And is number two, salvage.
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>> Yeah. Salvaging. Um salvaging is
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basically your ability to look for
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silver linings. um your ability to find
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the good during tough times, your
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ability to find the positive in
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negatives, your ability to deliberately
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look for and seek out what could be
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possibly good about a bad situation. And
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and in psychology, this has got sort of
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a fancier name. We talk about this idea
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of realistic optimism, which is exactly
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what it sounds like. It's your ability
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to be, I guess, realistic about a
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situation, which often is to say, you
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know, this is actually [ __ ] And in
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spite of that, to deliberately choose to
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be optimistic anyway, to actually
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continue to seek for and and look for
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the good. um within that situation. Um
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and and and again, I don't really like
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to keep sort of bringing it back to the
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fact that this is all around research
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and evidence because it's kind of, you
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know, people people throw, you know,
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studies and research and evidence around
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all of the time. But I think that it is
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important to note that, you know, we
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have proof that this works and and proof
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that people who have this ability to, I
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guess, continue to look for the good
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during tough times are the people who
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fear best in life. Um, if you can go
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into a bad situation and you can
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continue to look for and seek out what
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about that could be positive or good,
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you tend to come out the other side of
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it better off. And and it's worth
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noting, I think, a couple of things.
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One, that's actually a conscious,
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deliberate decision a lot of the time.
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Um and and two to to to make that
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decision you have to sort of go into
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life with the sense that not everything
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is black and white. Not everything is
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binary. Not all good situations are good
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through and through. Not all bad
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situations are bad through and through.
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That there is sort of shades of gray in
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between where there can be silver
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linings. Um and you know for me and and
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throughout my story that's kind of been
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a a really defining defining part of
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that. I think that you know humor is a
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great example of that. And a lot of
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people are really good at laughing their
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way through tough times. And really at
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its core, that's just an example of
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salvaging. Your ability to find
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something to laugh at during tough times
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is a really practical, tangible example
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of how you can, I guess, take some good
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um from from the bad.
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>> Yeah. And we we'll get into your whole
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backstory and uh what makes you
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qualified to speak about this um
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shortly, but yeah. S number three,
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streamline.
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>> Yeah. Streamlining. I guess streamlining
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comes down to how we engage and manage
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our anxieties and worries particularly
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during times of adversity and and
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challenge. Um, and there's there's sort
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of two different parts to this. First of
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all, we know that for particularly young
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people who are going through really
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rapid periods of of brain development
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and growth or what we talk about as
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neurokcognitive development, we know
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that if they spend a lot of time, I
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guess mismanaging their worries, if they
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spend a lot of time uh anxious or
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concerned about things, they can
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actually physiologically change the way
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that their brain grows and develops um
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to basically set themselves up to be
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good at worrying for the rest of their
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life at the cost of their ability to
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solution find or or problem solve. And I
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think the easiest way to explain this or
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to think about this is when you're
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young, you become really good at
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whatever you spend a lot of time doing,
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right? You spend a lot of time kicking a
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rugby ball, you become pretty good at
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that. If you spend a lot of time
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practicing a language or an instrument
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or whatever it may be, you pick these
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things up really well when you are young
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because your brain's still relatively
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sort of plastic and malleable and
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adaptable and developing. But we also
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know likewise, if you spend a lot of
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time worrying, you become really really
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good at worrying. Uh and often to the
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detriment of your ability to solution,
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find or or problem solve. So when it
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comes to our young people, it's really
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important that we encourage them to find
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ways to I guess manage or control their
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anxieties and worries during that period
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of life. But I think it's something
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which is more relevant and and and
00:08:34
broadly applicable than just to our
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young people. I don't know about for
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you, but you know, for me, when I've
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gone through tough times in my life
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before, there's a real tendency to, I
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guess, kind of pick up all of the
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problems at once or pick up all of the
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worries at once. It's really easy to
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sort of languish under the tap of bad
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things when something's going wrong and
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to frame and view everything through
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this lens that that there is no good.
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>> Um, and you know, a good friend of mine,
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Dr. Lucy Hone, um, who who some of your
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listeners will be familiar with as well,
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she's, you know, an international expert
00:09:04
in in this field around the psychology
00:09:06
of resilience. And to to sort of steal
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her framing, the way that she talks
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about this point is around is what I'm
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doing helping or harming. Uh I guess at
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its core streamlining is about ensuring
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that particularly during tough times
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particularly during periods of of
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adversity and challenge that we are not
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making things harder on ourselves than
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they need to be. Um yeah.
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>> Yeah. Actually a therapist said the same
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thing to me. Ask yourself that is this
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helpful or is it harming? And then
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another one is is is this even factual?
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>> Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
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>> Or is it just something that your brain
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has made up for you?
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>> Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that
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that's a really natural human tendency
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like I say. Um, you know, there's a
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story which I tell about this one which
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I think kind of it paints it in a in a
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in a bit of a manner and it's something
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which we can possibly sort of delve
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into. You know, we're going to delve
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into the story a little bit later on.
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Um, but when it comes to my my cancer
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journey and experience which sort of set
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me on this path, um, during that time of
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of of going through treatment, I lost my
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my hair, my eyebrows, my eyelashes, and
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as an 18-year-old guy, that was quite it
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was actually and it feels ridiculous to
00:10:06
look back on it now, but that was
00:10:07
actually a really significant thing. you
00:10:09
know, being an 18-year-old guy, you're
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insecure or self-conscious or insecure
00:10:12
as as I certainly was, as I presume most
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of us are at that time of life. And for
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me, I actually vividly remember that it
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impacted the way that I I guess
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interacted with with the adversity in
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terms of of of my cancer in a really
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negative way. and and and I guess I
00:10:28
stopped doing things like um you know
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going out in public or or taking time
00:10:32
hospital leave when I had the
00:10:33
opportunity to even going outside to go
00:10:34
to the park because I was concerned and
00:10:37
worried about the way that other people
00:10:38
I guess viewed me um and the fact that I
00:10:40
attracted attention. It was you know
00:10:42
very sympathetic of course but it was a
00:10:44
factor which was which was was present.
00:10:47
I came to realize very quickly that
00:10:49
worrying about I guess how I looked and
00:10:51
this insecurity which I had around that
00:10:52
was not only not going towards achieving
00:10:55
the outcome which I wanted which was you
00:10:56
know getting through the cancer and
00:10:57
getting better but in fact it was
00:10:59
actively working against that outcome.
00:11:01
You know I wasn't getting out and
00:11:02
getting fresh air. I wasn't spending
00:11:04
time with friends. I wasn't sort of
00:11:05
having some freedom from the hospital.
00:11:07
So I guess you know I tell that story
00:11:09
because hopefully it it paints a or
00:11:11
illustrates a picture of of what this
00:11:13
means. Streamlining is about trying to
00:11:14
ensure that during tough times when
00:11:16
we've already got limited I guess
00:11:18
attention and effort and resources that
00:11:20
we're putting them towards things which
00:11:21
which actually matter and go towards
00:11:23
achieving the outcome which we're trying
00:11:24
to to reach not sort of squandering them
00:11:26
on on on on other things which are I
00:11:28
guess tangentially related and and not
00:11:30
that important.
00:11:30
>> Yeah. So um the forest model so slow
00:11:33
down salvage streamline and the fourth
00:11:35
and final one stand alongside.
00:11:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. So standing alongside is you
00:11:39
know I guess relatively
00:11:40
self-explanatory. Um the story which I
00:11:42
tell to sort of frame this one though
00:11:44
was a few years ago I had the privilege
00:11:45
of working with the United States Forest
00:11:47
Service um which is basically the US
00:11:49
government's version of of doc
00:11:50
department of conservation do similar
00:11:52
stuff to to doc um but they're you know
00:11:55
they're tough a big part of their job is
00:11:57
just to you know survive out in the
00:11:58
wilderness either by themselves or with
00:12:00
one other person for prolonged periods
00:12:02
of of time. So I presented to their team
00:12:05
afterwards one of the guys came up to me
00:12:06
and what he said to me was in the United
00:12:08
States Forest Service we have two rules
00:12:10
to ensure we don't die out there in the
00:12:12
bush. The first one is we don't go out
00:12:14
unprepared and the second rule is we
00:12:16
don't climb mountains alone. And what he
00:12:18
said to me was I think you'll find this
00:12:20
relates to I guess resilience into
00:12:22
getting through life just as much as it
00:12:24
relates to surviving in the bush. And I
00:12:26
really thought about that and I guess on
00:12:27
that first point, you know, having some
00:12:29
some not going out unprepared. That's
00:12:31
really what you know, my work is around
00:12:33
hopefully equipping people with some
00:12:34
skills and tools and strategies to to to
00:12:36
face life's challenges. On that second
00:12:38
point though, far more interestingly,
00:12:39
not climbing mountains alone. I guess if
00:12:42
you take that as a pretty kind of
00:12:43
cheesy, pretty obvious metaphor for
00:12:44
going through tough times, we know for a
00:12:46
fact that people who face adversity
00:12:48
alone, people who go through tough times
00:12:50
by themselves or without the support of
00:12:51
others around them have just really,
00:12:53
really bad outcomes. And this is, you
00:12:55
know, potentially the most integral of
00:12:57
the four S's to creating resilience is
00:13:00
just having the sense of community, a
00:13:02
sense of belonging to something bigger
00:13:03
than oneself, a sense of of of a place
00:13:06
that you are safe or can retreat to, a
00:13:08
sense that there's someone somewhere out
00:13:09
there that cares about you who you can
00:13:10
lean on during tough times. And so the
00:13:12
idea of standing alongside is I suppose
00:13:14
yeah actively engaging with people
00:13:16
during tough times and leaning on them
00:13:18
but also and I guess particularly for us
00:13:20
as well ensuring that before those tough
00:13:22
times you've actually invested the
00:13:24
effort and attention and energy and and
00:13:26
resources into creating relationships
00:13:29
where you know that you can can be safe
00:13:31
during tough times. I think it's really
00:13:32
easy for us as guys to, you know, sort
00:13:34
of muddle along um and and and sort of
00:13:37
suspect that we can go at solo and get
00:13:39
through all fine when when the times are
00:13:41
good and then it's only when things go
00:13:42
wrong and it's during the tough times
00:13:43
that we find actually we did need people
00:13:45
who we could rely on people who we could
00:13:46
lean on. Um and and often by that point
00:13:49
it's a bit too late.
00:13:51
>> Yeah. I suppose um vulnerability comes
00:13:53
into that as well. Having that ability
00:13:55
to let your walls down and um ask for
00:13:58
help from other people.
00:13:59
>> Yeah, absolutely. which is not it's
00:14:01
actually not as easy as what a lot of
00:14:02
people think it is.
00:14:03
>> No, there's it's [laughter] funny
00:14:05
there's a lot of conversation about that
00:14:06
as well. You know, it's very speak up
00:14:08
and talk and and that but I don't know.
00:14:10
I I honestly feel like I'm very
00:14:13
unqualified to speak on that point in
00:14:15
particular because I'm not I'm I'm
00:14:16
terrible at it. I'm I'm I'm horrendous
00:14:18
at sort of not verbalizing or
00:14:20
communicating my emotions and and I'm um
00:14:23
very very good at sort of masking them
00:14:25
and and and and sort of pretending that
00:14:27
things are great and things are fine
00:14:28
when they are not necessarily. So
00:14:30
>> I'm trying to work on that which is
00:14:32
probably why I'm sort of boldly
00:14:33
oversharing this with you with you right
00:14:35
now. Um, but I think that, you know,
00:14:37
it's really important that when we talk
00:14:39
about, you know, the importance of
00:14:40
leaning on people that, you know, there
00:14:42
just has to be some sort of, it's just
00:14:45
about being realistic with life. I I
00:14:47
think I've come to realize, you know,
00:14:48
there's a lot of conversation about, you
00:14:49
know, speak out and speak up and and so
00:14:51
on and so forth. I think that there's
00:14:52
sort of these really grandiose concepts
00:14:54
around it. But at the end of the day,
00:14:55
it's just as simple as giving an honest
00:14:57
appraisal of how the day has gone. Not
00:15:00
just, and this is probably what I've
00:15:01
been guilty of previously as well, not
00:15:02
just focusing on the positives. I'm I'm
00:15:04
I'm a really optimistic person. I'm very
00:15:06
very good at sort of picking out the
00:15:08
good and and I guess that's idea of
00:15:09
salvaging, even finding good within the
00:15:11
bad, but probably to the detriment of
00:15:14
acknowledging or being aware of the fact
00:15:15
that things are sometimes bad and that's
00:15:17
that's still fine. That's okay. You just
00:15:18
have to be realistic about how
00:15:20
everything is is going, I guess.
00:15:21
>> Oh, yeah. You um I think I read this
00:15:23
somewhere. You were doing like a a
00:15:25
school um book thing for for the book,
00:15:28
The Comeback Code, and someone
00:15:30
introduced you to the phrase toxic
00:15:31
positivity.
00:15:32
>> Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And I I
00:15:34
have I I was once accused of that by by
00:15:37
a student at a school and it was really
00:15:39
interesting. I I I'd never really heard
00:15:40
the phrase. This was probably two years
00:15:42
ago that this happened, I'd say. And and
00:15:44
I um [laughter] we did so we we we do
00:15:47
anonymous well I do anonymous um sort of
00:15:49
feedback surveys with students after I
00:15:51
speak at schools a lot of the time.
00:15:52
First of all, you know, no fear like
00:15:54
giving 15year-old boys the ability to
00:15:57
anonymously write feedback and comments
00:15:59
to you. Like if you want to get a really
00:16:01
honest appraisal of who you are as a
00:16:03
person and and and how how they perceive
00:16:06
you, then yeah, anonymous comments from
00:16:08
teenage boys is a is a is a pretty
00:16:10
direct way to to to cut to the quick,
00:16:12
I'll tell you that.
00:16:12
>> Yeah, it's a generation that's grown up
00:16:14
with the internet. There's no fear of
00:16:15
trolling with that. [laughter]
00:16:17
>> No, so I probably even had practice some
00:16:19
of them as well. So yeah no they um yeah
00:16:23
it's kind of that's something which I do
00:16:24
because I think it's valuable to
00:16:25
understand for me what students connect
00:16:27
with what they don't what resonates what
00:16:29
doesn't what I could do better and what
00:16:30
I could do so I so so I I do it because
00:16:31
of that and and by and large you know
00:16:33
the the feedback is is is is generous
00:16:36
and and kind from students but yeah
00:16:38
anyway one one day this phase phrase
00:16:41
toxic positivity came up and I sort of
00:16:43
had to go away and sort of figure out
00:16:44
what that was with a bit of bit of
00:16:46
googling and I guess I I guess May maybe
00:16:50
what it meant to me was that I had
00:16:52
incorrectly communicated what I was
00:16:54
saying. Um, and I guess I've hopefully
00:16:56
done a better job of it now. For me,
00:16:57
this idea of, you know, resilience more
00:16:59
broadly, but even I guess this idea of
00:17:01
salvaging and taking the good away from
00:17:02
the bad and and and the gratitude side
00:17:04
of things, like I say, is not about just
00:17:06
being willfully, deliberately ignorant
00:17:08
of the fact that there is bad and there
00:17:10
is tough times. It's instead, I guess,
00:17:12
the ability to actually face those
00:17:14
headto-head to kind of grapple with them
00:17:15
and to still look to come out the other
00:17:17
side with as much of a positive mindset
00:17:19
and attitude as possible. But I'm not
00:17:21
I'm not I don't think in in denial about
00:17:23
the fact that, you know, there's bad in
00:17:25
life and and that's not a bad thing in
00:17:26
itself.
00:17:27
>> Yeah, I'm torn about it. I'm talking
00:17:29
about the phrase toxic positivity. Um,
00:17:31
like a previous podcast guest I've had
00:17:33
on, um, Asia Scott, she's on a TV,
00:17:35
reality TV show on Bravo called Below
00:17:37
Deck, and she gets accused of it on a
00:17:40
like an international scale all the
00:17:42
time. And I'm thinking, is it a bad way
00:17:44
to live your life? You know what I mean?
00:17:46
Looking looking for the
00:17:47
>> Yeah.
00:17:48
>> Look looking for the good in everything
00:17:49
in every situation. I don't know. I I I
00:17:52
think and and as with everything in
00:17:54
life, I suppose that there's a bit of a
00:17:56
you know, a range or a spectrum and
00:17:58
there's probably levels in ways in which
00:17:59
it is healthy and and and levels which
00:18:01
it's not. Um and you know, for me, I am
00:18:04
mindful of the fact that I've
00:18:06
potentially previously used that kind of
00:18:09
um you know, positivity and and
00:18:10
gratitude to sort of mask things that I
00:18:13
was aware of or feeling. And that's
00:18:15
probably when it's not particularly
00:18:17
healthy or the right thing to do. Um but
00:18:19
I guess by and large I think going into
00:18:21
life with an optimistic attitude is
00:18:22
going to be a good way to approach and
00:18:24
face things.
00:18:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. As someone that has has
00:18:27
tried um both um optimism and pessimism.
00:18:31
I feel like optimism has got me a lot
00:18:33
further in life than what pessimism
00:18:34
>> a hell of a lot more fun as well. I'll
00:18:35
tell you that.
00:18:36
>> Yeah. All right. Hey. Um so the book's
00:18:39
great. The comeback code. Um so yeah,
00:18:42
everyone can grab a copy of that. Now
00:18:44
can we um can we go back to where it all
00:18:46
began?
00:18:46
>> Yeah, 100%. the YouTube fame.
00:18:48
>> Yes. Y [laughter]
00:18:50
>> So, if anyone's wa like watching this
00:18:52
podcast think I I know that face from
00:18:54
somewhere. Um that's because you went
00:18:56
this is probably in the early days of
00:18:57
the phrase going viral. Like you went
00:18:59
viral in um towards the end of 2015.
00:19:01
>> Yeah, it was. Yeah.
00:19:02
>> Like 10 years ago. So, um Yeah. How many
00:19:05
times has that clip been viewed? Over 50
00:19:08
million.
00:19:08
>> Yeah. So, so on YouTube it's, you know,
00:19:10
the original video's got got a couple of
00:19:12
million views on it, I think. But
00:19:14
through um through you know ways that
00:19:16
people have you know re-sliced it for
00:19:18
socials and pages like you know Goldcast
00:19:20
and things have reposted it. It's yeah
00:19:22
it's it's well into the well into the
00:19:24
tens of millions over sort of 50 million
00:19:25
now across yeah really wide range of
00:19:27
different kind of audiences. Um which is
00:19:30
yeah very um very surreal I think is the
00:19:33
only way to to put that. That's for
00:19:35
sure. It doesn't it doesn't kind of mean
00:19:36
anything to me. you know, particularly
00:19:38
during that time of the the cancer and
00:19:40
during my treatment, I was just so
00:19:41
incredibly grateful for the support and
00:19:44
I felt incredibly supported, I guess, by
00:19:46
the by the public at a broad level and
00:19:48
and that meant a massive amount to me.
00:19:50
But in terms of the um you know, the
00:19:52
verality of it or the reach and and how
00:19:54
many people have seen it, I don't you
00:19:56
know, I don't get anything from those
00:19:57
numbers. It doesn't give me a boost. It
00:19:59
doesn't sort of give me a kick in terms
00:20:00
of ego or self-esteem or anything. It's
00:20:02
just genuinely um yeah, odd and and
00:20:06
surreal. um very very grateful for the
00:20:08
support like I say that's come from it
00:20:09
but the numbers in itself don't mean
00:20:10
anything.
00:20:11
>> No no but I'm I'm keen to unpack the the
00:20:13
whole thing and explore this a little
00:20:14
bit because um I'm I'm assuming it
00:20:17
changed the trajectory of of your life
00:20:19
and 10 years on you know spoiler alert
00:20:21
you're fit and healthy.
00:20:22
>> Yeah I am.
00:20:24
>> You've now got a couple of books out and
00:20:25
I'm not sure how your life would have
00:20:26
looked otherwise.
00:20:28
>> Yeah. And I guess neither am I. And
00:20:29
that's you know that's sort of the funny
00:20:31
thing about it. I knew what it was
00:20:33
potentially going to look like. I was um
00:20:35
looking to go and and go to University
00:20:37
of Oakland here and do commerce and law.
00:20:39
I was sort of locked into that path
00:20:40
where I had a spot in the halls and I
00:20:42
don't know life life would have at least
00:20:44
begun down that trajectory. Um
00:20:46
presumably I would have been happy.
00:20:47
Generally as humans we we we find a way
00:20:49
to be um I wouldn't have known any
00:20:52
different which I guess is a big part of
00:20:54
it as well. But yeah, the experience of
00:20:55
the cancer and um everything which came
00:20:58
about as a result of that has definitely
00:20:59
shifted and changed the trajectory uh
00:21:01
your trajectory which I've I've found
00:21:03
myself on
00:21:04
>> um on now. Yeah.
00:21:06
>> Yeah. So um October 29 uh 2015 you got
00:21:10
this um cancer diagnosis and the speech
00:21:13
that we're talking about that went viral
00:21:14
uh that was on November 4. Yes. Um so
00:21:16
like a week later to the day and day
00:21:19
three of your chemotherapy.
00:21:20
>> Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Um yeah.
00:21:25
Yeah. What are your recollections of
00:21:26
that?
00:21:27
>> Um the speech itself specifically, I
00:21:30
guess I was so incredibly um sick at
00:21:34
that time. You know, it was it was later
00:21:36
described by um by one of my doctors as
00:21:39
sort of this phase where when you're
00:21:41
beginning treatment, you're kind of
00:21:42
simultaneously still dying from the
00:21:44
cancer and having all of the side
00:21:45
effects of the chemotherapy at the same
00:21:47
time. there sort of bit of a war going
00:21:48
on within you and and not no one's got
00:21:50
the upper hand yet. Um and so you're
00:21:52
sort of getting a bit of a double whammy
00:21:54
in terms of that. So it was a really
00:21:55
really difficult phase of my treatment.
00:21:56
I was I was really sick and when it
00:21:59
comes to the speech itself, it's funny.
00:22:00
I don't recall a great deal of it. I was
00:22:03
on a lot of really strong medication at
00:22:05
the time. Um I was, as I say, just
00:22:07
profoundly unwell. I have I have
00:22:09
recollections of um some specific parts.
00:22:12
I remember being wheeled into the
00:22:14
auditorium. I remember um sort of going
00:22:17
through and delivering the speech and I
00:22:18
remember looking up at the stage lights
00:22:20
and I couldn't see anything. It was just
00:22:22
all sort of stage light. Anyone that
00:22:23
spent um any time on a stage before
00:22:24
knows what it's like when you can't see
00:22:26
an audience beyond the lighting. So, I
00:22:28
remember I remember that. Um I remember
00:22:30
that my ears were sort of blocked
00:22:33
because I was I was so unwell. You know,
00:22:35
if you're if you're very very um sick or
00:22:37
if you got a really bad head cold and
00:22:38
you sort of sound like you're
00:22:39
underwater, you can't hear yourself. So,
00:22:40
I sort of couldn't see. I couldn't hear
00:22:42
myself talking. Um, and I just was was
00:22:45
pretty uh pretty focused on trying to
00:22:47
get through the next kind of 15 minutes.
00:22:49
Um, and and and in all honesty, there's
00:22:51
there's there's one other distinct
00:22:53
recollection which I have was how much I
00:22:55
was just focused on not throwing up down
00:22:57
my front [laughter]
00:22:58
because it was like it was I'd been very
00:23:01
sick in the even in the minutes leading
00:23:03
up to to going on stage. I'd sort of
00:23:05
been throwing up in the car on the way
00:23:06
there. I've been throwing up in the
00:23:07
wings on side of stage and mom mom had
00:23:11
said you have to take your sick bucket
00:23:12
out on stage with you when you deliver
00:23:14
the speech in case you throw up and I
00:23:16
was like mom there is no there's no way
00:23:17
in which I'm taking a sick bucket out on
00:23:20
stage to deliver the speech and so I
00:23:21
hadn't um but you know that you know
00:23:24
there was it was definitely in the back
00:23:25
of my head that ms are always right and
00:23:27
I did not want to come out on the wrong
00:23:28
side of of of this particular um choice
00:23:31
that I'd made. So yeah, there was a
00:23:32
focus on just getting through the next
00:23:34
sort of 15 minutes of the speech, not
00:23:35
throwing up down my front and and
00:23:36
wanting to yeah get it done really.
00:23:39
>> When was the last time you saw it?
00:23:41
>> Oh, um it's a good question. I
00:23:43
>> do you play a part of it in keynote
00:23:44
speeches?
00:23:45
>> I I don't. No, I don't. That's why you
00:23:47
mention that.
00:23:48
>> I don't know. I guess for me, um
00:23:51
yeah, it's funny because I guess this
00:23:53
the speech is how people met me, right?
00:23:56
This is sort of how people and to some
00:23:58
degree still remember me and I guess
00:23:59
will continue to remember me. Um, but
00:24:01
for me it was it was just really was
00:24:03
just that moment in time. Um, you know,
00:24:06
I I I don't think, you know, it was
00:24:08
obviously the circumstances were unique,
00:24:10
but I don't think that there was
00:24:11
anything particularly, I guess,
00:24:13
remarkable about about me in that
00:24:16
speech. There definitely wasn't anything
00:24:17
particularly remarkable about my story.
00:24:20
You know, it's it's it's a very common
00:24:22
story. Um, and that's not just that's
00:24:24
not humility. Um, I guess for me it's
00:24:26
just something which it is what it is
00:24:28
and it was what it was. Um, but yeah, I
00:24:32
I haven't seen it for oh man, I don't
00:24:35
know, six years probably would have been
00:24:37
the last time I watched it. I sort of,
00:24:39
you know, I hear little snippets of it
00:24:40
sometimes um when when when people play
00:24:42
it sort of as background to an interview
00:24:44
or whatever as a lead in.
00:24:45
>> Um, but it's not it's not something
00:24:47
which I go back and watch. Um, and I
00:24:49
don't know, maybe I should and have a
00:24:52
look and see how I feel about and think
00:24:53
about it with with a bit of a bit of
00:24:54
hindsight and a bit of time to to shift
00:24:57
perspectives on it. Um, but no, it's
00:24:59
definitely not um it's not not regular
00:25:01
viewing, that's for sure. The 50 million
00:25:02
views wasn't me on repeat. [laughter]
00:25:06
>> Well, a couple of them were me the other
00:25:07
day. I I had like you, I hadn't seen it
00:25:09
in years, but I re-watched it um knowing
00:25:11
that you were coming in today
00:25:13
>> and um yeah, there's parts of it where,
00:25:17
you know, I don't know, you look scared,
00:25:18
you look Yeah, you look afraid.
00:25:21
>> Um were you?
00:25:24
>> Um no, no, I wasn't. And I guess the
00:25:28
reason for that I I was I was you know
00:25:30
profoundly uncomfortable and that that
00:25:32
was sort of a lot of what my experience
00:25:34
with the with the cancer and going
00:25:35
through the treatment was was that it
00:25:36
was physically challenging. It was
00:25:38
physically incredibly challenging. Um
00:25:41
but in terms of the psychology and the
00:25:42
emotion behind it and what I was going
00:25:45
through there wasn't there wasn't a huge
00:25:47
amount to it. And I I guess the so so
00:25:51
the answer and and the reason for that
00:25:53
is that I never had any doubt that I was
00:25:55
going to survive and to to to to live.
00:25:58
But I really need to quickly put a
00:26:00
proviso on that which is that that was
00:26:02
not some sort of you know relentless
00:26:04
positivity or optimism or bravery or
00:26:07
courage or anything particularly
00:26:08
admirable. It was literally just being a
00:26:11
naive foolish 18-year-old guy. like, you
00:26:14
know, we're not particularly renowned
00:26:15
for being aware of our our own mortality
00:26:17
at the best of times, let alone when
00:26:19
you're when you're in your teenage
00:26:20
years. And for me, I I honestly think
00:26:23
and and and I guess I've come to better
00:26:25
understand in recent years in terms of,
00:26:26
you know, brain development and growth
00:26:27
as well, that I was pretty much
00:26:29
physically incapable of comprehending my
00:26:31
own mortality in that setting. So for
00:26:34
me, no, there was never any there was
00:26:36
never any fear around it because there
00:26:37
was never any sense for me that there
00:26:39
was another alternative option other
00:26:40
than to to to beat it. I was never going
00:26:43
to die in my head. And I guess it was
00:26:46
only in the latter years as I had the
00:26:49
privilege of of walking alongside a lot
00:26:51
of other young people who who went
00:26:53
through that same journey and walked
00:26:54
that same path as I did who then went on
00:26:57
to have um I guess a different ending to
00:26:59
their story than I had that I probably
00:27:01
became fully cognizant of and grateful
00:27:04
for the fact that I had survived it. And
00:27:06
for me that was always a foregone
00:27:08
conclusion. And that, like I say, is
00:27:10
just just a reflection of of of
00:27:11
obliviousness and naivity and stupidity.
00:27:14
And there's there's a whole bunch of
00:27:15
stories which I think really reflect
00:27:17
that. There was there was one time um
00:27:20
where I'd had some symptoms come up and
00:27:21
basically I had to have a brain scan and
00:27:23
the two options were either one um the
00:27:26
the symptoms were were were fine and
00:27:28
unrelated or two um it was because I the
00:27:30
cancer had spread to my brain and if it
00:27:32
had done so then it was probably sort of
00:27:34
lights out, right? So it was a really it
00:27:37
was a very tense time for evidently
00:27:38
those around me but not for me because I
00:27:40
knew in very big inverted commas that
00:27:43
that can't have been what had happened
00:27:44
because I knew I was going to be fine
00:27:46
right and the brain scan results came
00:27:48
back and we were told as a family that
00:27:50
yeah lo and behold my brain scan was
00:27:52
clear and it was all fine and mom bursts
00:27:54
into tears and and mom mom's balling and
00:27:57
I vividly remember turning to her and
00:27:59
and and trying to comprehend that moment
00:28:02
and and I just said to her you you
00:28:03
really thought that there was a chance
00:28:05
that I might have died. Um, which sounds
00:28:08
absurd, right? But for me, it was just
00:28:10
so foreign. The fact that someone could
00:28:12
not perceive it, I guess, the same way
00:28:14
that I did. Um, which I think was
00:28:16
probably even more foreign for the
00:28:18
people around me to perceive the fact
00:28:19
that I I I didn't think that I I could
00:28:22
or would ever die from it. There was a
00:28:24
another one another story which I guess
00:28:26
is really humorous in in in retrospect
00:28:28
but kind of about you know a week or two
00:28:30
into treatment um we had to have a sort
00:28:33
of like a family conference with the
00:28:34
doctors and the medical professionals
00:28:36
because they were worried I was not sort
00:28:38
of um I had not got the message I'd been
00:28:41
talking to the nurses about oh well you
00:28:43
know this is great that it's happened at
00:28:44
this time of year because it means that
00:28:46
I'll have these couple of months of
00:28:47
treatment then I'll come out the other
00:28:48
side and I'll be good to go for for
00:28:50
university at the start of next year
00:28:52
2016 bring it on.
00:28:53
>> Yeah, exactly. And lo and behold, that
00:28:54
triggered some sort of family conference
00:28:56
because I I didn't get it. Wasn't taking
00:28:58
it seriously enough sort of thing. The
00:28:59
doctors were like, "You do you
00:29:01
understand what's going on, right?"
00:29:02
Which I did. Um, but I guess like I say,
00:29:05
I was just I was just a teenage guy and
00:29:07
was oblivious to it. So anyway, the the
00:29:10
reason that we go through all of that
00:29:11
rigmarole is because I guess that's the
00:29:13
answer to your question. How did I feel?
00:29:14
Was I scared, afraid? Um, and the answer
00:29:16
is no. Because I didn't carry any of the
00:29:18
emotional burden from that. I was an
00:29:20
18-year-old kite. I didn't have, you
00:29:22
know, a wife and kids to worry about. I
00:29:24
didn't have a job to hold down. I didn't
00:29:25
have a mortgage to pay. My life was
00:29:27
really, you know, simple at that time.
00:29:29
And so I I feel very grateful for the
00:29:31
fact that I didn't have to carry the
00:29:32
burden of worrying about all of these
00:29:34
other, I guess, pressures and and and
00:29:35
and influences, which for, you know,
00:29:38
other people going through that
00:29:39
experience at a different stage of life
00:29:40
would be a really big part of that. Um,
00:29:42
so no, for me it was it wasn't
00:29:45
emotionally or psychologically too
00:29:47
challenging going through that.
00:29:49
>> Yeah. the the the speech itself it
00:29:51
seemed um particularly poant uh given
00:29:54
the um the health state at the time. Did
00:29:56
you have a different speech um written
00:29:58
before you got sick?
00:30:00
>> So the speech was was very much the
00:30:02
same. No, I didn't I didn't really write
00:30:03
another speech. Um there was a few
00:30:05
things which were tweaked or adjusted um
00:30:08
sort of anything in in the speech where
00:30:10
I referred to I guess the diagnosis and
00:30:12
and the news that I'd had in the in the
00:30:14
prior week that was that was obviously
00:30:15
added later on. But apart from that, the
00:30:17
speech was was was in its um yeah
00:30:19
complete in its entirety before the
00:30:20
diagnosis.
00:30:21
>> Oh. So So the line none of none of us
00:30:23
get out of life alive. Be brave. Be
00:30:24
gallant. Yeah. Cuz it seemed um that's
00:30:27
the part that's the bit where you get
00:30:29
goosebumps because you're like [ __ ] this
00:30:30
this kid is staring death in the face
00:30:33
and he's doing it with such courage. Oh,
00:30:34
it was already pre-written. [laughter]
00:30:36
>> Well, that was And I guess at the end of
00:30:38
the day, I mean, like I say, I don't
00:30:39
know. I I don't I don't know. I mean,
00:30:42
>> the speech was it was it was a high
00:30:44
school end of year speech. Um, and you
00:30:47
know, I guess a lot of the weight and
00:30:49
the symbolism that that came to it came
00:30:52
from the, you know, the situation and
00:30:54
the context and the cancer itself. Um,
00:30:56
and I, like I say, I don't I don't want
00:30:58
to give the impression that I'm not, you
00:30:59
know, incredibly humbled by the way that
00:31:01
it was received, but for me, I guess it
00:31:03
it it was just, you know, my high school
00:31:05
end of year speech that I' I'd written.
00:31:07
Um, and and that was,
00:31:09
>> you know, made made very different by
00:31:10
the context, like I say. Um, but yeah, I
00:31:13
I appreciate that people found meaning
00:31:15
within those words and I guess meaning
00:31:16
within that context as well and value
00:31:18
from that
00:31:19
>> and they still do. Why was it so
00:31:20
important for you to be there? And were
00:31:22
your parents trying to talk you out
00:31:23
[laughter] of it or the hospital staff
00:31:25
trying to talk you out of it?
00:31:26
>> So from from a medical perspective,
00:31:28
there was no reason that I couldn't or
00:31:29
shouldn't be there. People around me
00:31:32
were very supportive of obviously
00:31:34
whatever I wanted to do either way. No
00:31:35
one's going to go tell the guy with
00:31:36
cancer that he has to go and give a
00:31:38
speech at his school, right? But
00:31:39
[laughter] they were very um they were
00:31:41
very supportive of me doing that if
00:31:42
that's what I wanted to do. Um why did I
00:31:46
go and give it? I think and it's a it's
00:31:48
a it's a a silly answer really at the
00:31:49
end of the day. I think probably what a
00:31:51
lot of it came down to was the fact that
00:31:53
I didn't think realistically that I
00:31:55
should have been chosen for that role as
00:31:57
as head boy. Um I think there was
00:31:59
probably other people who were you know
00:32:01
better qualified would have been a
00:32:02
better fit for that role. And I guess
00:32:05
that probably had led me over the course
00:32:07
of the year to feel really invested in
00:32:09
doing that job to the absolute best of
00:32:11
my abilities. I thought, you know, since
00:32:12
it is me, I'm going to give it a really
00:32:14
decent shot, a really a really good
00:32:16
crack, a really good nudge. And I don't
00:32:18
that that wasn't a conscious or
00:32:20
deliberate factor which sort of played
00:32:21
into me giving that speech at the end of
00:32:22
the year. I didn't think I', you know,
00:32:23
kind of got to go and do this now um
00:32:25
because of that. But I I guess
00:32:27
subconsciously I'd gone through the
00:32:29
course of that year really wanting to do
00:32:31
that job to the best of my abilities.
00:32:33
And I I was quite I was I was quite
00:32:35
worried about how I how I did that job.
00:32:37
You know, as as as an 18-y old guy, it
00:32:38
was a massive privilege and it meant a
00:32:40
lot to me. And I think I do recall there
00:32:42
is a line in that speech about that
00:32:44
where it sort of maybe some of that
00:32:46
vulnerability or or insecurity about
00:32:48
that role that I'd had sort of shows
00:32:49
through. I think I said something like I
00:32:51
hope I did you proud when I when I
00:32:53
talked to, you know, the senior
00:32:54
leadership team and who who had chosen
00:32:56
me for that role. Um, so I think, you
00:32:58
know, in terms of why and why I went and
00:32:59
did that speech, I basically just felt
00:33:01
that I wanted to to finish the year as
00:33:03
strong as I'd started. I felt like I
00:33:04
owed it to those those young guys that
00:33:05
I'd had the privilege of leading over
00:33:06
the course of that year.
00:33:08
>> And how how did it end up online?
00:33:10
[laughter]
00:33:11
>> It's there there was a whole series of
00:33:13
of sort of flukes um which which led to
00:33:15
to to all of this happening. Um, one of
00:33:18
them was the fact that it was filmed at
00:33:20
all and the only reason that it was
00:33:21
filmed was because I was um sick. the
00:33:24
hospital, sorry, that the school had set
00:33:26
up a live stream of the school um the
00:33:29
end of year assembly so that if I was
00:33:31
stuck in hospital, I could watch the the
00:33:33
prize-giving live stream from hospital,
00:33:35
[laughter] which even as I say it now is
00:33:37
hilarious because the idea that you'd be
00:33:39
sick in hospital going through cancer
00:33:40
stream and wanted to watch your high
00:33:41
school prize giving is just
00:33:44
preposterous. Like I mean they're bad
00:33:46
enough to sit through at the best of
00:33:47
times, let alone when you've when you're
00:33:49
dying from cancer, right? So, um, the
00:33:52
the reason it was filmed was in case I
00:33:54
wasn't there and it ended up being
00:33:55
filmed, you know, with me there. And,
00:33:58
um, I don't even know if I should kind
00:34:01
of really entirely tell the story. I
00:34:03
don't think that I've shared this story
00:34:04
publicly before, but the way that it
00:34:05
ended up I guess in the media was
00:34:07
because there had been some um stuff
00:34:10
which had gone on basically a game of
00:34:11
sort of tackle bull rush which had gone
00:34:13
on at school on the last day of school,
00:34:14
the school that the day that I gave that
00:34:15
speech, the 4th of November, and some
00:34:18
students had been sort of um injured as
00:34:20
a result of that. Um and um the reporter
00:34:24
had come to the school to to interview
00:34:27
um the headmaster and to to write about
00:34:29
uh what had what had gone on there. And
00:34:31
long story short, I I suspect I don't
00:34:33
know this for a fact, but my suspicion
00:34:35
is that my story and and speech may have
00:34:38
been thrown as a dummy pass to try and
00:34:41
and and and lead someone away from a an
00:34:44
unfortunate story about students being
00:34:45
injured in a game of bull rush um to
00:34:47
write something a little bit a little
00:34:48
bit different. Um but yeah, it started
00:34:50
from there and that began as a very very
00:34:52
small piece on page five or six of the
00:34:55
press in the days following. Um and
00:34:58
yeah, it just sort of continued to grow
00:35:00
and and expand from from there.
00:35:02
>> Yeah. And and it [ __ ] it sure did. Hey,
00:35:05
like went went truly international and
00:35:06
and um Yeah. What are your memories of
00:35:08
going viral? Like were you too sick to
00:35:10
know about it or care?
00:35:12
>> Yeah. I
00:35:12
>> Or were you were you refreshing and
00:35:14
reading comments?
00:35:15
>> Um I I I knew about it very much. I
00:35:18
think, you know, for me, um, the the
00:35:22
prevailing memory of that experience was
00:35:24
being in the hospital with my girlfriend
00:35:26
and, um, just sort of hanging out and
00:35:29
she was, you know, on her phone
00:35:30
scrolling through Facebook. And I
00:35:32
remember her turning to me and saying,
00:35:34
"Holy [ __ ] there's a story here in the
00:35:37
Australian news. It's been posted on
00:35:38
Facebook by 9 News and it has 5,000
00:35:41
likes on it." And it was like, "That is
00:35:44
unbelievable." And then by that night,
00:35:47
uh, the TVN Z story on Facebook had like
00:35:50
50,000 likes on it and it had just blown
00:35:52
up and exploded over the course of
00:35:55
really sort of 48 to 72 hours. And I
00:35:57
guess that's kind of what Verality is
00:35:59
about in terms of, you know, clips going
00:36:00
viral like that. It's a very very quick
00:36:02
rise and a very very steep descent. Um,
00:36:05
I guess in in my case, I was I was
00:36:07
really fortunate that that people sort
00:36:08
of had this prolonged care or interest
00:36:11
for me which was really humbling. you
00:36:12
know, people saw the clip and I guess it
00:36:14
meant something to them. Um, but more
00:36:16
than that, they sort of continued to
00:36:18
care for my health and want the best for
00:36:20
me afterwards, which was yeah, so
00:36:22
incredibly yeah, it's just genuinely
00:36:24
humbling to think that, you know, people
00:36:26
care about you in that way. Like I say,
00:36:28
my story was not sort of special or
00:36:30
unique or uncommon particularly.
00:36:31
Everyone goes through adversity.
00:36:33
Everyone goes through hardship and
00:36:34
suffering. To for me in that place, you
00:36:36
know, surrounded by other people walking
00:36:38
that same journey as me to feel like I
00:36:39
had the support of really without being
00:36:42
melodramatic to feel like I had the
00:36:43
support of the nation behind me was
00:36:45
incredible privilege. But I was very
00:36:47
mindful at the time that it was not
00:36:49
inherently fair, right? I was one of
00:36:51
many, many people in that ward going
00:36:52
through that experience, walking that
00:36:54
journey who did not have that same level
00:36:56
of care and support and love um being
00:36:58
poured out for them. Um, and I think for
00:37:01
me, you know, I was I was really mindful
00:37:03
of that and have continued to be mindful
00:37:04
of how lucky I was um, since then. So,
00:37:06
in terms of yeah, what it was like and
00:37:09
how it felt in a funny sense, for me,
00:37:12
the cancer and and that going viral
00:37:14
thing is um, it's sort of inextricably
00:37:17
tied together, right? Like my perception
00:37:19
of a cancer diagnosis is that in the
00:37:21
days following it, you just end up
00:37:23
plastered all over the media and there's
00:37:24
and there's, you know, a million
00:37:25
interview requests come in and and and
00:37:27
that's sort of the, you know, your life.
00:37:29
interview requests. Really?
00:37:30
>> 100%. Absolutely. Oh, interview
00:37:32
requests. And, you know, I it was it was
00:37:35
not just interview requests. It was
00:37:37
things like, you know, journalists
00:37:38
calling through to the ward pretending
00:37:40
to be family members to try and get put
00:37:42
through to to my room to speak to me on
00:37:44
the phone and lying about who they were
00:37:46
or um people trying to get into the the
00:37:49
hospital ward. And and you know, I I
00:37:51
listened to your podcast. I actually
00:37:52
listened to the podcast recently. I know
00:37:54
it's not a recent podcast, but with
00:37:55
Kelsey Wagghorn, who is a friend of mine
00:37:57
[clears throat] now and someone who I've
00:37:58
come across recently in in life through
00:38:00
some some um involvement with an
00:38:01
organization that we're both part of and
00:38:03
she sort of, you know, it's a story
00:38:05
which which she told in the podcast in
00:38:06
terms of the I guess how there can be
00:38:09
some sort of pretty odd odd odd people
00:38:11
out there as well as the, you know, love
00:38:12
and support and care which I had. There
00:38:15
was a lot of people who were um Yeah.
00:38:17
doing doing weird things trying to get
00:38:19
into my room. Um there were people
00:38:21
>> like fans, stalkers.
00:38:23
>> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose
00:38:24
[laughter] sort of somewhere somewhere
00:38:26
between somewhere somewhere between the
00:38:27
two or maybe a bit of both. Um
00:38:29
>> suppose that's the problem when you go
00:38:30
viral and people know exactly where you
00:38:31
are.
00:38:31
>> Yeah. Exactly. [laughter] You know where
00:38:32
to find them.
00:38:33
>> Yeah. There's one sort of one ward where
00:38:35
I could have been being treated in in
00:38:37
Christ Church and and that was where I
00:38:38
was. So yeah, there was there was some
00:38:41
um you know interesting experiences
00:38:43
which came about as as part of that. But
00:38:44
for me that was kind of the normal like
00:38:48
there is so and it sounds it sounds
00:38:50
stupid but there's just so much upheaval
00:38:51
and change in your life through that
00:38:53
whole process. You know your life gets
00:38:54
tipped upside down that all of this
00:38:57
other stuff which came with it wasn't
00:38:59
wasn't particularly odd. I suppose it
00:39:01
was just oh just another things changed.
00:39:02
Oh, you know I now have cancer. I now
00:39:04
have to fight for my life. I now you
00:39:06
know I'm not going to school. I I'm now,
00:39:08
you know, ripped away and I'm put in
00:39:09
hospital and and I'm I'm in this
00:39:10
environment for the indefinite, you
00:39:12
know, for the foreseeable future, for an
00:39:13
indefinite amount of time. Plus, now I'm
00:39:15
just on the news when I turn the TV on
00:39:17
at night and and plus there's, you know,
00:39:18
people who are in some cases getting
00:39:20
into my room um and and people trying to
00:39:22
get into my room and media trying to
00:39:24
reach me and my family and and all of
00:39:26
this stuff. So, I guess, yeah, it wasn't
00:39:29
just that that was weird in itself. The
00:39:31
whole the whole thing was weird and
00:39:32
because of that, it was it was just all
00:39:34
quite normal and and how weird
00:39:36
everything was. Yeah. And and you you
00:39:38
were 18, so you were like like legally
00:39:39
an adult at the time, but you're still
00:39:40
very much a child. Like, you know,
00:39:42
you're just finishing your school. Yeah.
00:39:43
I can't imagine how troubling that was
00:39:44
for your for your parents. That extra
00:39:46
additional layer, you know, like the
00:39:48
media trying to call that's wildly
00:39:50
inappropriate.
00:39:51
>> Um it was a funny one.
00:39:52
>> I better think carefully because I was
00:39:54
on the edge at the time. We probably
00:39:55
tried to get you on as well.
00:39:56
>> I I tell you what, you you didn't you
00:39:58
guys and actually I remember this as
00:40:00
well. guys. Um I think it's a family
00:40:02
friend of ours was in touch with you
00:40:04
guys and you guys offered to put
00:40:05
together some sort of support campaign
00:40:08
and to do something really really kind
00:40:10
and wonderful around that and um we we
00:40:14
declined it and you guys were incredibly
00:40:15
respectful around that at the time. So
00:40:17
no, you might not remember but I do
00:40:18
remember and you guys were actually
00:40:19
brilliant specifically.
00:40:21
>> Um what was the question there? Sorry, I
00:40:22
completely lost track of
00:40:25
your parents about I mean so they're
00:40:27
dealing with um like you were cool with
00:40:28
it. you you knew you were sick and you
00:40:30
were going to beat it like a flu, a
00:40:32
seasonal flu. But for your parents, they
00:40:33
thought their kid was dying. Um then
00:40:35
there's this additional layer of um this
00:40:37
sideshow going on like um yeah, have you
00:40:40
unpacked that with them? [laughter]
00:40:41
>> Probably not. Not particularly. Um it's
00:40:44
funny sometimes when I when I speak at
00:40:45
schools, you get students that ask the
00:40:47
question, you know, what was this like
00:40:48
for your your parents? And I always say
00:40:50
to them, that is such an emotionally
00:40:52
intelligent question to ask because for
00:40:53
me, not only did I not comprehend what
00:40:56
my parents' emotions might have been at
00:40:58
the time, I didn't even comprehend the
00:40:59
fact that my parents had any emotions of
00:41:01
any form at all. To me, they were just,
00:41:03
I don't know, parents. You don't even,
00:41:06
at least I didn't, as an 18-year-old
00:41:07
guy, sort of perceived them in all of
00:41:09
their humanity. And and I wasn't really
00:41:11
aware of what it would have been like
00:41:13
for them going through it. So, I think
00:41:14
with I guess the benefit of hindsight, I
00:41:16
look back on it now and I just say
00:41:18
basically, holy [ __ ] Like for my
00:41:20
parents, this was the worst thing they
00:41:22
had ever had to go through in their
00:41:24
entire life. It was the hardest thing
00:41:25
they'd ever had to be through or to get
00:41:27
through. And yet, at the same time, they
00:41:30
were expected to not show any form of
00:41:32
weakness. They were expected to be
00:41:33
strong and to be there for me and to
00:41:34
prop me up during the hardest time of
00:41:36
their life instead of just, you know,
00:41:38
retreating and wanting to curl up into a
00:41:39
ball and and cry as I assume that they
00:41:41
did. Um, so yeah, my parents were
00:41:43
incredibly brave and resilient and
00:41:45
strong and just an amazing source of
00:41:47
support throughout that time as well.
00:41:49
And I'm I'm yeah, obviously hugely
00:41:50
grateful to them for that.
00:41:52
>> Yeah. Well, you you even like banned
00:41:53
your mom from crying in front of you.
00:41:55
[laughter]
00:41:57
>> Look, that's Yeah.
00:41:57
>> Is this on the documentary or
00:41:59
>> Yeah. I I don't know. I read or heard.
00:42:02
>> I've let this story out slip some point.
00:42:04
It's it's this a story which I I've been
00:42:06
poor mom I've been increasingly sort of
00:42:07
reticent to put it out publicly because
00:42:09
it paints me in a really bad light bas
00:42:11
you were 18 you're 18 at the time give
00:42:13
yourself a free
00:42:14
>> pass that's sort of and and that was the
00:42:15
I guess the context after we after I was
00:42:17
diagnosed um we were told separately my
00:42:20
parents were told outside the room I
00:42:21
guess I was technically an adult so I
00:42:22
was told by myself they were told with
00:42:24
my permission outside the room and so
00:42:26
there was this moment where I see my
00:42:28
entire family for the first time after
00:42:30
after they have found out and I have
00:42:32
found out that I've got this this stage
00:42:33
for cancer. And so they walk back in and
00:42:35
and you know, mom's mom's crying as as
00:42:37
you'd probably expect. But as an
00:42:39
18-year-old guy, I think as as any human
00:42:41
being, the one of the worst things that
00:42:43
you can experience in the entire world
00:42:44
is seeing a parent cry. Like it's just
00:42:47
it's a it is just an abomination of
00:42:49
nature. That's not how it's supposed to
00:42:50
be, right? And so whilst it was
00:42:52
incredibly understandable, mom comes
00:42:54
back in crying. And yeah, it's sort of
00:42:56
it's lived on in family law because
00:42:58
unfortunately the first thing I said to
00:42:59
mom, the first thing I said to mom after
00:43:01
my cancer diagnosis was, "Mom, if you're
00:43:03
going to cry, you're going to have to
00:43:04
get the [ __ ] out." Which is just
00:43:07
appalling. It's just terrible. But mom
00:43:10
sort of like startled and and then
00:43:12
sniffed a few times and kind of wiped
00:43:14
her eyes and said, "Okay." And um to her
00:43:18
immense credit, she she held it together
00:43:20
um throughout the rest of that time
00:43:22
afterwards. Um, so yeah, I'm probably
00:43:24
going to sort of make that one up to her
00:43:25
a little bit, but at the end of the day,
00:43:27
it went a long way to Yeah, I I I I
00:43:30
guess, you know, I I just didn't have
00:43:31
the capacity to deal with other people's
00:43:34
emotions on top of on top of everything
00:43:36
which was going on at that time.
00:43:37
>> Oh, when when you're that age, your life
00:43:38
sort of revolves around around yourself.
00:43:41
You got to give yourself a free pass.
00:43:42
Yeah, we we'll get more into that soon,
00:43:44
but I just a couple more on the um the
00:43:45
YouTube clip and u So um yeah, 2015
00:43:48
quote of the year. M do um do you
00:43:51
remember who you were up against?
00:43:52
>> Um
00:43:53
>> John Key was one e with talking about
00:43:55
ponytails.
00:43:56
>> Yeah. Oh, was that 2015? Yeah, that was
00:43:58
probably about the right time. Yeah,
00:43:59
that could have been it. I was up
00:44:00
against um Steve Hansen. I remember um
00:44:04
which I think the quote was um in reply
00:44:07
to do you have anything else up your
00:44:08
sleeve at the 2015 Rugby World Cup was
00:44:11
um just my arms I think was the quote.
00:44:13
There was um yeah, there was a few
00:44:15
others which which Yeah, it's quite
00:44:17
funny to look back on the quotes
00:44:18
actually. I have seen that somewhere
00:44:20
recently and it's like opening a time
00:44:21
capsule like it's it's really funny
00:44:23
because they they they relate very much
00:44:25
to a I guess a very specific time in in
00:44:27
in culture. It's a really is a it's a
00:44:30
really good snapshot. So um I can't
00:44:33
remember the off my head. Um but there
00:44:35
was Yeah, there were definitely I don't
00:44:37
know there was there's some great quotes
00:44:38
amongst them that's for sure.
00:44:39
>> Can you remember yours the winning
00:44:41
quote?
00:44:41
>> Yeah, the quote the quote was um none of
00:44:43
us get out of life alive. So, be
00:44:45
gallant, be great, be gracious, and be
00:44:47
grateful for the opportunities that you
00:44:48
have.
00:44:51
>> It's a great quote.
00:44:52
>> Um, yeah. Yeah. I I think
00:44:56
>> Yeah. Where did that come from? This is
00:44:57
pre-C GPT, so [laughter]
00:45:00
there's there's no plagiarism here.
00:45:02
>> No, there was there was no no plagiarism
00:45:05
there, I guess. Um,
00:45:07
>> it's a deep quote for an 18-year-old.
00:45:10
>> I don't know. I just wanted
00:45:11
>> You wrote it when you were 17, actually.
00:45:13
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:14
18.
00:45:15
>> I don't know. I just wanted to I wanted
00:45:17
to to get my um you know, high school
00:45:19
end of year speech done. I just wanted
00:45:20
to I guess write something which um yeah
00:45:24
would hopefully
00:45:26
I guess yeah and this is it's funny
00:45:29
because I guess like I say the cancer
00:45:30
and the context added and changed a lot
00:45:32
around that. But I guess at its core I
00:45:34
just wanted to write something which
00:45:35
would connect with those boys that I had
00:45:37
had the opportunity to lead and
00:45:38
hopefully hopefully inspire them to some
00:45:39
degree. Um, so yeah, the speech itself
00:45:42
was just a I guess a collection of of of
00:45:44
thoughts which I hoped that they would
00:45:46
be able to carry forward into into life
00:45:49
with them. Um, and
00:45:50
>> yeah, that that quote was was was that
00:45:53
>> cuz in in this chat you you've almost
00:45:56
been trying to paint a picture of
00:45:57
yourself as someone that's like naive
00:45:59
and self-centered and self-absorbed. Um,
00:46:02
but that like that quote and those uh
00:46:05
those words they they tell a different
00:46:06
story, I think.
00:46:08
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. I I guess, you
00:46:11
know, as a young person, you're there's
00:46:13
a lot of complexity to to all of us at
00:46:15
that time and stage of life. And I I
00:46:17
suppose, yeah, I am um pretty kind of
00:46:20
self-deprecating, which which I don't
00:46:21
think is a bad thing. I think I sort of
00:46:24
I like the fact that as Kiwis, we are
00:46:27
good at just being down to earth and
00:46:29
realistic about these things. But I I
00:46:30
guess the reason that I'm I lean into
00:46:32
that is because I'm mindful of the fact
00:46:33
that sometimes people perceive, you
00:46:36
know, my story and my experience as
00:46:38
being so, you know, inspirational um or
00:46:40
so powerful or impactful. And and for
00:46:42
me, you know, I just I don't want it to
00:46:45
be framed that way for no reason other
00:46:46
than the fact that I think that for for
00:46:48
people it makes it feel um I guess
00:46:50
unachievable or unattainable,
00:46:51
particularly when it comes to
00:46:52
resilience. You know, people say to me,
00:46:53
"You're so brave to get through the
00:46:55
cancer. You're so brave going through
00:46:56
that." And it's kind of like, well, no,
00:46:58
it was it was it was not bravery. It was
00:47:00
not courage. It was not some sort of
00:47:02
superhuman ability. It was just what we
00:47:04
all have, which is the ability to kind
00:47:05
of muddle through, fight through to
00:47:07
another day, and just to try and keep on
00:47:09
going. Um, so
00:47:10
>> if there's anything special or unique or
00:47:12
uncommon about my story, it's the fact
00:47:14
that I've been supported by and
00:47:15
surrounded by some incredible uh people
00:47:17
along the way, which has been, you know,
00:47:19
a massive part of how I've got through
00:47:20
those tough times. And that I've been
00:47:22
really, really lucky. I've been, you
00:47:24
know, so lucky to be born in a country
00:47:25
where I had access to to treatment and
00:47:27
health care. So lucky to have been
00:47:29
diagnosed when I was. So lucky to have,
00:47:31
I guess, got through that time of life.
00:47:34
So lucky to have been supported by
00:47:35
people through that, as I say. And then
00:47:37
you're really so lucky to have had
00:47:38
opportunities come about as a result of
00:47:40
that as well. Um, I just, yeah, I'm
00:47:42
hesitant to frame myself as being sort
00:47:44
of special in any kind of way because I
00:47:45
think it comes down to amazing people
00:47:47
that I've I've walked alongside and a
00:47:48
lot of luck that I've had throughout
00:47:49
that time as well. M
00:47:52
>> yeah and I'm just trying to think how I
00:47:54
felt at the time so that you know the
00:47:56
clip came and it went viral um and I
00:47:58
think we were all just wrapped up in the
00:47:59
story and it's um it just sort of
00:48:01
provided a beacon of hope I think to
00:48:03
have a positive outcome.
00:48:05
>> Yeah.
00:48:05
>> You know to show that that you know some
00:48:07
people have a terrible outcome you know
00:48:09
with cancer but not everybody does.
00:48:11
>> Yeah. Absolutely. And I guess in a
00:48:13
sense, yeah, that that's something which
00:48:15
I've been, you know, mindful of as well
00:48:16
and have wanted to try and I suppose
00:48:19
portray through through my cancer
00:48:20
experience and journey at the time was
00:48:21
the fact that you can go through the
00:48:23
cancer, you can go through that
00:48:24
treatment and you can come back out the
00:48:25
other side not just, you know, as good
00:48:27
as you were beforehand, but in my case,
00:48:29
I think I'm sort of fitter and and
00:48:31
healthier than I've ever been before.
00:48:33
And I think that there is yeah, there is
00:48:34
something powerful or important in in
00:48:36
that for people to people who have
00:48:37
walked that path or people who will walk
00:48:39
that path in the future to understand
00:48:41
that
00:48:42
Yes, that 2015 quote, none of us get out
00:48:44
of life alive. So, be gallant, be great,
00:48:46
be gracious, and be grateful for the
00:48:47
opportunities you have. Um, then, uh,
00:48:49
364 days later, you're back again. Um,
00:48:53
in the same stage, same assembly
00:48:55
assembly hall. Um, this time
00:48:57
cancer-free. Um, this quote was not
00:48:59
quote of the year. It wasn't even a
00:49:00
finalist, I don't think. Uh, don't drink
00:49:02
diesels and don't get cancer. [laughter]
00:49:05
>> Don't tell me it's not good advice,
00:49:06
though. Right. That's that's bringing
00:49:08
things back to basics. Um, again, that's
00:49:10
a that's a snapshot of the time. What
00:49:12
What Yeah, for anyone that doesn't know
00:49:13
what we're talking about, what are
00:49:14
diesels?
00:49:15
>> Diesels are diesels are RCDs. They're
00:49:18
pre premix bourbon and coke and they're
00:49:21
I don't know seven seven or eight
00:49:22
percenters. Um, and you still get them.
00:49:25
>> I I think you can. I And I only know
00:49:27
because we had a reunion night a few
00:49:29
years ago where it was it was compulsory
00:49:31
to to drink diesels, which um yeah, sort
00:49:33
of
00:49:34
>> I don't know. definitely [laughter] made
00:49:36
me uh made maybe made me made me wonder
00:49:38
how we ever managed to drink them when
00:49:39
we were 18. That's for sure. Um but
00:49:41
yeah, that's I'll tell you what that is
00:49:43
pretty solid advice by and large. As
00:49:45
I've said to people before, I think you
00:49:46
know I've had as many um I felt as bad
00:49:50
off the diesels as I felt on the chemo.
00:49:52
So um [laughter] they're not
00:49:54
>> it's not a great endorsement.
00:49:55
>> No, no, it's not. There's no there's not
00:49:56
going to be any sort of brand
00:49:58
partnership coming my way from that, I
00:49:59
don't think. But
00:50:00
>> well, there's there's two trains of
00:50:01
thought. Some might say that diesel um
00:50:03
has the capability to kill cancer.
00:50:05
Others will [laughter] others will tell
00:50:06
you the cause is cancer.
00:50:07
>> It's pretty it it could be both. It
00:50:09
could be either. But um yeah, it's it's
00:50:11
strong stuff. It's strong enough to do
00:50:12
to to potentially do either of them. I
00:50:14
think that's [laughter] for sure.
00:50:16
>> And then um so the uh the viral clip
00:50:18
that the was the hucker at the end that
00:50:20
you got from your your classmates in
00:50:22
your school, was that on the clip or was
00:50:24
that a separate
00:50:25
>> uh that was on the clip. Yeah, that was
00:50:26
at the end of it there.
00:50:28
>> That's powerful, isn't it? Oh, it was it
00:50:29
was honestly still to this day probably
00:50:31
the most powerful thing I've ever
00:50:32
experienced. It was incredibly powerful
00:50:35
and um meant so much to me. It was so
00:50:37
incredibly Yeah, I guess humbling. Um I
00:50:41
sort of sigh when I say that because I
00:50:42
think I use humbling as a bit of a
00:50:44
crutch word. Like I I I've I've been
00:50:46
told before that I repeat that far too
00:50:48
many times in interviews, but there's
00:50:50
not really any other way to describe
00:50:51
what that experience was like with the
00:50:54
with the um yeah, with the cancer and
00:50:56
and and getting through the other side
00:50:57
apart from um and the experience of the
00:50:59
hucker other than than humbling.
00:51:01
>> I think it's a it's a fine word to
00:51:03
overuse. Um if if you're a person that
00:51:05
practices uh gratitude um and looks for
00:51:08
that sort of stuff, I think you would
00:51:09
find it humbling. Eh,
00:51:09
>> yeah, it was. And it was it was powerful
00:51:12
and I felt the full force of that
00:51:14
support. Um, so
00:51:16
>> yeah. Yeah.
00:51:18
>> Yeah. Cuz that's the part of the clip
00:51:19
where it it like it looks like it looks
00:51:21
like you're on the the the cusp of
00:51:22
tears. You're fighting the tears.
00:51:24
>> Um
00:51:25
>> Yeah. That was just like a a powerful
00:51:27
emotional moment. Wasn't for your own
00:51:29
fear of what you were being wheeled off
00:51:31
into.
00:51:31
>> No. No. It was just it was just I felt
00:51:34
um
00:51:35
>> Yeah. I just I just really felt the full
00:51:37
weight of that support in that moment.
00:51:38
It was incredibly overwhelming. It was
00:51:40
it was very very powerful. And I, you
00:51:42
know, I did go back and watch that clip
00:51:44
of the hucker a number of times when I
00:51:45
was back in hospital and going through
00:51:46
the treatment and and felt, yeah, felt
00:51:49
the full weight of that support. Um, and
00:51:51
and it did help me get through some of
00:51:52
those tough times, those tough moments.
00:51:54
Yeah.
00:51:56
>> Is it okay for you to talk about this
00:51:57
stuff now or do you feel like a
00:51:58
completely different person, you know,
00:52:00
given 10 years has has passed? Is it is
00:52:02
it is it like triggering to revisit the
00:52:04
cancer stuff or
00:52:05
>> Yeah. No. So, you know, for me, it's
00:52:07
always quite funny because when I talk
00:52:09
about cancer, and I I sort of
00:52:11
inadvertently have ended up spending a
00:52:13
lot of time doing that. Um, I recognize
00:52:15
very quickly that, you know, for a lot
00:52:18
of people, it's a it's a difficult,
00:52:19
uncomfortable, awkward topic to discuss.
00:52:22
You know, you you bring up cancer and
00:52:23
it's just inherently uh shocking and
00:52:26
uncomfortable and confronting and
00:52:27
awkward. It's really hard for people to
00:52:29
talk about. And I guess that's because
00:52:31
we've all had experiences with cancer,
00:52:33
right? I mean,
00:52:34
>> you know, almost everyone knows someone
00:52:36
that has has been through it who's close
00:52:38
to them. Almost everyone's lost someone
00:52:40
close to them to
00:52:40
>> one in three is the stat. One in three
00:52:42
is the stat that they use for daffod
00:52:44
each year that uh it impacts one in
00:52:46
three
00:52:46
>> Kiwis
00:52:46
>> 100%. And I guess you know that that
00:52:48
that's firsthand. I guess the second
00:52:50
hand and and and you know the
00:52:51
connections which we have to people who
00:52:52
go through and walk that journey is is
00:52:54
you know almost all of us experience
00:52:56
that. So I completely get and understand
00:52:59
and accept why there is that discomfort
00:53:01
around talking about cancer. why people
00:53:03
don't feel feel good or or or feel
00:53:05
comfortable talking about it. I guess
00:53:07
for me it's it's a funny one because it
00:53:10
for me it's not, you know, shocking or
00:53:11
confronting or awkward or uncomfortable
00:53:13
or weird to talk about. For me, cancer's
00:53:14
been part of, you know, my journey or
00:53:16
story or life or whatever kind of cliche
00:53:18
you want to put to it. Um, and so
00:53:20
because of that, it doesn't feel any of
00:53:23
those those negative things. Um, you
00:53:25
know, there's a story which I tell which
00:53:27
I think illustrates how people feel
00:53:28
about talking about the cancer and it
00:53:30
was a few years back I went into a um a
00:53:32
cafe to to order a coffee, went up to
00:53:34
the counter and the brisster at the
00:53:35
counter said to me, "Oh, have you been
00:53:36
in a scrap? Like, have you been in a
00:53:38
fight?" And the reason that she said
00:53:39
that was um I've got a a mark under my
00:53:42
right eye. Um it's only in sort of
00:53:44
certain lighting. If you get in the
00:53:45
right kind of lighting though, it looks
00:53:46
like I've basically copped a shine or
00:53:48
I've got a black eye. Looks like it's
00:53:50
sort of darkened up and swollen up
00:53:51
around there. Um I'm not sure if it
00:53:52
comes through in the clip or not. you've
00:53:54
got such good studio lighting that I
00:53:55
suspect it potentially won't. Um, but
00:53:57
anyway, you get in the right sort of
00:53:58
lighting, it looks like I've got a black
00:54:00
eye. It's not from that at all. It's
00:54:02
actually from where uh when I went
00:54:04
through the cancer, there was a tumor.
00:54:05
When it grew and grew fast, it sort of
00:54:07
um damaged the underlying bone structure
00:54:09
through there, and when it shrunk away
00:54:10
during the treatment, it basically left
00:54:11
this dent or this divid, which if you
00:54:13
get in the right light and cast a
00:54:15
shadow, the shadow looks like a dark
00:54:16
mark and and so on and so forth. But I
00:54:19
wasn't going to tell the barista that
00:54:20
because it was 7:00 in the morning and
00:54:22
it would be [ __ ] weird to bring that
00:54:23
up with a complete stranger, right? So I
00:54:25
just said just sort of shrugged it off
00:54:26
and said, "Oh, no, no, it's not. No, no,
00:54:28
it wasn't that. No, no fighting for me."
00:54:30
And [snorts] she goes, "Oh, yep. Cool.
00:54:31
Right. Did you fall down the stairs?"
00:54:34
And I was like I was like, "No, no, no.
00:54:36
It wasn't that either."
00:54:37
>> It's a really inquisitive barista.
00:54:39
>> I think [clears throat] she has a slow
00:54:40
morning or something because she then
00:54:42
goes, "Right, right. Okay. Did you did
00:54:44
you walk into a door?" I said, "No, no,
00:54:46
it wasn't that either." But the problem
00:54:48
was like, as as I'm feeling more and
00:54:50
more awkward about this, she's getting
00:54:51
more and more excited. She's sort of
00:54:53
building up into this guessing game
00:54:54
instead of it [laughter] instead of it
00:54:55
petering out.
00:54:56
>> She's in too deep.
00:54:57
>> Yeah. She's loving it. She's, "Oh, you
00:54:58
play rugby." I was like, "Nah, nah."
00:55:00
[laughter]
00:55:01
And she sort of throws a few more things
00:55:02
out there. And I'm sort I'm always
00:55:03
watching her sort of like steam the
00:55:05
milk, thinking like, "Fuck, I can
00:55:06
probably ride this out if she just gets
00:55:08
this coffee done quick enough until
00:55:10
eventually she sort of sealed both of
00:55:11
our fates." and she went, "Well, I'm not
00:55:13
going to give you your coffee until I
00:55:14
can figure out how you've done that to
00:55:16
yourself." [laughter] And I thought,
00:55:17
"Well, it's going to be a seriously long
00:55:19
morning and a long morning with no
00:55:20
coffee if I kind of let you guess away
00:55:22
to that ride." So, I um you know,
00:55:24
blurted out and like I say, to me, it
00:55:26
means it means nothing. It means nothing
00:55:27
to say it. There's no emotional
00:55:28
attachment to it. There's no emotional
00:55:30
response. It doesn't you know, it
00:55:31
doesn't mean anything to me to say it,
00:55:32
but I just said, "Oh, it's from where I
00:55:33
had cancer a couple of years ago." But
00:55:35
to her, I think, you know, her reaction
00:55:37
was basically the epitome of of of how I
00:55:40
think people feel about talking about
00:55:41
cancer. She physically recoiled in
00:55:43
horror. Her mouth literally dropped open
00:55:45
in shock. She would not stop
00:55:46
apologizing. Got the coffee for free in
00:55:48
the end offer actually. [laughter] Um,
00:55:49
which I think
00:55:50
>> you've been using that excuse.
00:55:51
>> Yeah. I mean, I haven't paid for a
00:55:52
coffee in nearly 10 years now. I just
00:55:54
[laughter] always angling for for
00:55:55
freebies from baristas. No, I um I think
00:55:58
for me, you know, that sort of
00:55:59
illustrates this this discomfort which
00:56:01
people have around talking about cancer.
00:56:02
And like I said, I completely get and
00:56:03
understand and accept why that is. But
00:56:05
for me, um, to answer your question, no,
00:56:07
I mean, it doesn't mean anything to me
00:56:09
to talk about it because it's just how
00:56:11
it's been. It's just it's just the
00:56:12
reality. It's just the truth. Um, and
00:56:15
and yeah, I just feel lucky to still to
00:56:17
still be out the other side of it and to
00:56:18
have the opportunity to talk about it.
00:56:20
>> Yeah. So, it was um September 25th. By
00:56:22
the way, who who was Jake Bailey
00:56:24
precancer? Like, what was the biggest
00:56:26
adversity you went through before that?
00:56:28
Parents breaking up.
00:56:28
>> Yeah. I I I guess I'd been through that
00:56:30
sort of normal regular kind of young
00:56:33
person adversity. I mean, I'd lost a
00:56:34
grandparent or lost two grandparents.
00:56:36
Um, but I'd lost my grandmother who I
00:56:39
was particularly close to in in the year
00:56:41
prior to the diagnosis, but that's, you
00:56:42
know, normal adversity. I'd lost, yeah,
00:56:44
my parents had split up and separated
00:56:46
when I was um seven. So, that's, you
00:56:48
know, again, pretty normal, regular kind
00:56:50
of um young person adversity. I don't
00:56:52
think I was, you know, necessarily
00:56:54
particularly resilient person before the
00:56:56
cancer. I don't even think I'm really a
00:56:58
particularly resilient person after the
00:56:59
cancer either. Um, but I guess I was
00:57:02
just a, you know, a pretty regular
00:57:04
average sort of teenage guy. I I wasn't
00:57:07
good at sports. I did better in the
00:57:09
academic side of things. I didn't do a
00:57:12
lot outside of school. I wasn't sort of
00:57:14
musically talented or into culture or
00:57:16
arts or like I say, you know, sport was
00:57:18
never a strength. So, I was just a, you
00:57:20
know, pretty regular kind of teenage guy
00:57:21
hanging out with his with his his mates
00:57:24
and his family and just getting through
00:57:26
school and figuring out what he wanted
00:57:27
to do with his future.
00:57:28
>> It was fabulous hair at the time. You
00:57:30
look like you could have been a six
00:57:31
member of One Direction. [laughter]
00:57:32
>> That's quite funny. It's funny when when
00:57:34
I watch that clip. When I watch that
00:57:36
clip back of the speech, the times I
00:57:37
have seen it, whenever I see a steal
00:57:39
from it, it always really bugs me that
00:57:41
my hair looks like that because it's all
00:57:43
greasy and disgusting and horrible. And
00:57:46
I guess part of me, it's selfishly part
00:57:48
of me part part of me, you know, um,
00:57:50
regrets that because the reason it was
00:57:53
is that I had stopped washing it because
00:57:55
I was worried it was going to fall out
00:57:57
before the speech. If I if I had washed
00:57:59
it, I had it into my head that now I
00:58:01
started the chemotherapy and I was going
00:58:02
to lose my hair that maybe I'd get in
00:58:04
the shower, wash it, and it would all
00:58:05
come out. And [laughter] so the reason
00:58:07
it looks like that in the video is just
00:58:09
that it hadn't been washed for for days.
00:58:11
I wasn't, like I said, I was very unwell
00:58:13
anyway. So I wasn't having a lot of um
00:58:15
sort of showers particularly. Um but
00:58:18
>> I suppose it was the last thing on your
00:58:19
mind. You're not looking in the mirror
00:58:20
in the car going, "Yeah, the hair
00:58:21
still."
00:58:21
>> No, I wasn't. No, I think I was lay I
00:58:22
was laying in the backseat of the car
00:58:24
throwing up. So it was it was it was it
00:58:26
was kind of where it was at now. uh
00:58:27
where was that then?
00:58:28
>> Um but yeah, I I started to notice it
00:58:31
more because as as you'll see, I don't
00:58:32
have a great deal of hair on my head
00:58:34
now. So I look back on the clip from 10
00:58:36
years ago and think, man, what a lucky
00:58:37
guy I was back then. [laughter] And I
00:58:38
think I took that took that for granted
00:58:40
a little bit. So yeah.
00:58:42
>> Yeah. So it was um September 2015 uh
00:58:45
when you started getting sick. Um there
00:58:46
was some pain in your jaw. You thought
00:58:48
it was wisdom teeth related.
00:58:49
>> Yes. Y
00:58:50
>> um so that's starts you on the the
00:58:52
health system treadmill.
00:58:54
>> Um
00:58:55
>> yeah. Yeah. What happened? you just get
00:58:57
progressively sicker and sicker. Was it
00:58:58
a gradual thing?
00:58:59
>> It was it was over the course of um
00:59:01
probably two two to three months.
00:59:02
>> Why did it take so long to discover it?
00:59:04
>> I guess the the the easy answer is that
00:59:06
there was always kind of a logical
00:59:08
explanation along the way. And you know,
00:59:10
wisdom teeth um saw wisdom teeth and an
00:59:12
18-year-old is not going to raise any
00:59:14
alarm bells, right? Wisdom teeth hurt.
00:59:15
Wisdom teeth get impacted. They get
00:59:16
infected. They cause difficulty. When my
00:59:19
wisdom teeth did that, that was
00:59:20
completely normal. Um and then yeah, I
00:59:24
guess gradually stranger and stranger
00:59:25
things started to happen. I lost a lot
00:59:26
of weight um very quickly. I lost about
00:59:29
12 or 13 kgs over the course of about 2
00:59:31
and 1/2 weeks. But again, there was kind
00:59:33
of a reason for that. I couldn't chew
00:59:35
any solid food. So at the time I was
00:59:37
living entirely off vanilla up and go. I
00:59:39
was having I was having three three lers
00:59:41
of up and go a day. Sort of a one liter
00:59:42
bottle for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
00:59:44
Um and you know, vanilla up and go,
00:59:46
great stuff. Still have it, but um not
00:59:49
exactly what you'd call complete
00:59:50
nutrition, right? So it wasn't
00:59:51
particularly surprising when I lost that
00:59:53
weight. Then I guess the bottom half of
00:59:55
my face went numb was the next thing
00:59:56
which happened. Um which is you know
00:59:59
alarming to to just you know lose
01:00:00
feeling in the bottom half of your face
01:00:02
and for it to not come back. But again
01:00:04
there was sort of a reason the wisdom
01:00:06
teeth um in an infection in there or
01:00:08
anything like that can compress the
01:00:09
nerves which supply sensation to the
01:00:11
face. So there was sort of another
01:00:13
logical explanation. Um and then yeah,
01:00:16
progressively I just got I guess sicker
01:00:17
and sicker um until eventually I was
01:00:19
kind of bedbound and and started
01:00:21
throwing up blood and you know in these
01:00:24
intervening periods I should make it
01:00:25
clear as well that there was a lot of
01:00:27
engagement with the medical system too.
01:00:29
Um you know I was was seeing a number of
01:00:32
doctors, a number of maxelo facial
01:00:33
surgeons, a number of dentists. I'd been
01:00:35
to A&E a couple of times but effectively
01:00:38
there was just always a relatively
01:00:40
logical explanation. Um, and you know,
01:00:44
when it comes to the presentation of
01:00:45
these symptoms, you don't jump straight
01:00:47
to the idea of getting this
01:00:50
the cause is some extraordinarily rare
01:00:52
and uncommon form of cancer, right? Um,
01:00:54
you go with the most most obvious um
01:00:56
solution because 99% of the time that's
01:00:59
correct. It's just in my case it it
01:01:00
wasn't.
01:01:03
>> Yeah. Again, back to your parents, that
01:01:04
must have been a particularly troubling
01:01:05
time for them.
01:01:06
>> Yeah. Yeah, it Did they manage to shield
01:01:08
you from how worried they were or was it
01:01:09
quite
01:01:10
>> like clear to you just how concerned
01:01:12
they were about
01:01:13
>> like losing like 10 kilos in 2 weeks or
01:01:16
whatever? That's that's it's not great.
01:01:18
>> No, it's not. [laughter] It's not it's
01:01:19
not great at all. Um particularly given
01:01:21
that I'm not and and yeah, I'm not not a
01:01:23
huge guy as as you will have noticed.
01:01:25
I'm sort of 5'7 and I probably weighed
01:01:27
then about what I weigh now maybe 60 65
01:01:30
sort of kgs. So losing losing 10 plus
01:01:32
kgs rapidly was um not you know
01:01:35
>> was not normal or expected. Um yeah for
01:01:38
my parents I guess they they did do a
01:01:41
good job of I suppose shielding me away
01:01:43
from kind of their emotions and feelings
01:01:45
around it at the time. Um yeah, I think
01:01:50
I think for them they were they were
01:01:52
abundantly worried, but we were doing
01:01:54
everything which we could in terms of
01:01:56
engaging with the you know the medical
01:01:57
system and professionals and they were
01:01:59
really good at at and in practical terms
01:02:01
at helping with that and and pushing
01:02:03
those things along and advocating for me
01:02:04
within the healthare system. Um but
01:02:07
yeah, that's just that's just how it
01:02:09
was.
01:02:10
>> Can you remember the moment you got the
01:02:12
news?
01:02:12
>> Yeah, I can. Yeah, I do. Um, it was a
01:02:16
regular kind of afternoon. I was laying
01:02:18
in my hospital bed, my hospital room
01:02:20
there. I'd had a whole range of
01:02:22
different sort of tests and procedures
01:02:23
in the in the days preceding this. Um,
01:02:26
and I guess I knew at that point that
01:02:28
something was was really wrong. I didn't
01:02:30
know what it was. I didn't really expect
01:02:32
that it would be cancer either, but I
01:02:33
did know that it was going to be bad,
01:02:35
whatever it was. Um, just based on based
01:02:38
on sort of what the doctors had been
01:02:40
like and based on how sick I was. Um and
01:02:42
so lady who I'd never met before came
01:02:44
into the room and she sat down on the
01:02:47
bed beside me and she introduced herself
01:02:48
as a hematologist. I had no idea what a
01:02:50
hematologist was. Um but she went on to
01:02:53
explain just very slowly uh very calmly
01:02:55
that I had yeah I had cancer that I had
01:02:57
burkits non-hodkkins lymphoma. Um and
01:03:00
explained that at that stage they'd
01:03:02
found it through my uh brain lining, eye
01:03:04
sockets, nasal passages, sinuses, gums,
01:03:07
jaw, spinal fluid, pancreas and through
01:03:09
both of of my kidneys. Um and yeah, she
01:03:13
sort of talked me through um what the
01:03:16
options were in in terms of treatment,
01:03:18
which was when I say options, it was
01:03:19
sort of the option to have treatment or
01:03:21
or not. Um which I guess is a
01:03:24
theoretical choice more than anything
01:03:25
else. You know, for me, I was always
01:03:27
always set on on having that treatment
01:03:29
because, you know, in my head there was
01:03:31
no alternative other than than getting
01:03:32
through it. Um, you know, you sort of
01:03:35
you actually framed it really well
01:03:36
before when you said, you know, you
01:03:38
think of it like um you sort of said you
01:03:41
viewed it as having a flu or getting
01:03:43
through a flu or getting through a cold.
01:03:44
And really that's kind of what it was in
01:03:46
my head. It was like every other time
01:03:48
I'd been sick previously. I'd gone to
01:03:50
the doctors. I'd been given some
01:03:52
medication and I'd come out the other
01:03:53
side completely fine. And I guess for
01:03:55
me, I perceived the chemotherapy and the
01:03:56
treatment in a very similar sort of way.
01:03:59
It was just a matter of just doing doing
01:04:00
doing what the doctor said, going
01:04:02
through that process and coming out the
01:04:03
other side.
01:04:05
>> If if you didn't get treatment, the
01:04:06
other option like how long did how long
01:04:08
did they
01:04:09
>> uh about about 2 weeks sort of
01:04:11
>> you were a very sick young man.
01:04:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. And the cancer, you know,
01:04:14
it's incredibly it's the fastest growing
01:04:15
cancer which which exists. Um it's it's
01:04:18
evidently very very rapidly growing. And
01:04:21
so, yeah, sort of a two to three weeks
01:04:22
was the doctor's best estimate at at
01:04:24
kind of, yeah, about how long I' I'd
01:04:26
still be kicking if if it wasn't for
01:04:28
immediate treatment. Was was your mom in
01:04:30
the room? Is that the moment that she
01:04:31
bled her eyes out?
01:04:31
>> No. So, mom mom actually came back in
01:04:34
after that. So, I was I was just in
01:04:36
there with the the hematologist at the
01:04:37
time.
01:04:38
>> Do you you start crying or are you just
01:04:40
sort of is the room spinning?
01:04:41
>> Um, no. There was Yeah, there was just
01:04:45
nothing. There was really and I think
01:04:48
[laughter] it's worth sort of thinking
01:04:50
of it in in in the sense that to never
01:04:52
to to
01:04:54
it's incredibly hard to explain as you
01:04:56
can as you can probably tell by the way
01:04:57
I'm struggling to frame it. I think in
01:04:59
that moment I felt genuinely nothing
01:05:01
which sounds like a bit of a a platitude
01:05:04
or a cliche but you've got to think in
01:05:06
life you're always feeling something.
01:05:07
Even if you're just feeling, I don't
01:05:09
know, contented or calm or relaxed or
01:05:11
whatever, there's always some sort of
01:05:12
feeling there. Even if it is a very
01:05:15
neutral one, there is always something
01:05:16
there. In that moment, I genuinely, for
01:05:18
the first time, and it's only happened
01:05:20
once once since then, I felt absolutely
01:05:22
nothing in that moment. It was
01:05:23
completely blank. Um, and it's it's
01:05:26
maybe some of your listeners will have
01:05:28
experienced that themselves, maybe
01:05:29
you've experienced that it's a moment in
01:05:30
life, but if you if you haven't, I think
01:05:32
it's incredibly hard to understand or or
01:05:34
or imagine what it must be like to feel
01:05:36
blank like that. just absolutely
01:05:37
absolutely absolutely nothing. Um and
01:05:41
then as we talked through the the the
01:05:43
treatment with the doctor um I pro I
01:05:46
probably felt a little bit of a sense of
01:05:49
um maybe impatience. I just wanted to
01:05:51
get started on things. I really knew
01:05:53
that the only way to get through the
01:05:54
cancer was to be was to go through the
01:05:57
treatment. Um I wanted to come out the
01:05:59
other side. I wanted to get back to my
01:06:00
life again. And so there was a sense of
01:06:02
let's just get on and get started with
01:06:04
this. Let's let's let's get through
01:06:05
this. Um, and so that was maybe the
01:06:08
first emotion I felt afterwards. But no,
01:06:09
at the time there was no, you know, it
01:06:11
didn't feel like the world was crashing
01:06:12
in. It didn't feel like, you know, it
01:06:14
didn't it didn't feel like this big sort
01:06:15
of movie moment. There's no big emotions
01:06:17
attached to it. Wasn't the things you'd
01:06:18
expect. It wasn't angry, scared, sad,
01:06:20
afraid, upset. It was it was nothing.
01:06:23
Just just very much nothing.
01:06:25
>> Yeah. May maybe that's cuz you were so
01:06:27
so unwell potentially.
01:06:28
>> Yeah.
01:06:29
>> Just pleased to finally get an answer.
01:06:30
>> There was definitely a bit of that as
01:06:31
well. Yeah. Yeah, there was definitely a
01:06:33
sense that um particularly after, you
01:06:35
know, months of getting increasingly
01:06:37
sicker without any answer or solution to
01:06:39
it, there was definitely a sense of
01:06:42
relief that we had kind of got some sort
01:06:44
of answer. And it wasn't a great answer,
01:06:46
obviously. Um but it gave us something
01:06:49
to work with, whereas up until that
01:06:51
moment, I'd been getting, you know,
01:06:52
worse and worse without any idea why or
01:06:54
what we could or were going to do about
01:06:56
it. M I I I know um what your answer
01:06:59
will would be to this, but um yeah, is
01:07:02
is your mom or your dad salty that it
01:07:03
took so long to find the answer?
01:07:05
>> Um [laughter] yeah, look, it's funny. So
01:07:09
I I've got no I got no hard feelings
01:07:11
about about anything which happened
01:07:13
because for me, you know, it didn't
01:07:16
change the outcome. First of all, if it
01:07:17
had changed the outcome, it would have
01:07:18
been different. Um two, it was there was
01:07:21
never any individual failings. There
01:07:23
were some some times where the system um
01:07:26
sort of could have performed better. Um
01:07:28
and there were times where I I could
01:07:29
have and perhaps should have been
01:07:30
diagnosed earlier, but I genuinely have
01:07:33
no hard feelings around that. Um these
01:07:36
things happen. That's just the reality.
01:07:37
You you can't have, you know, a
01:07:39
healthare system which gets everything
01:07:40
right all the time because it's run by
01:07:42
people and people don't get everything
01:07:43
right all of the time. It's just it's
01:07:44
just the inherent nature of these
01:07:46
things, right? So I don't have any hard
01:07:48
feelings around it. Um I don't you know
01:07:51
Yeah. [laughter]
01:07:52
my parents and family um may have
01:07:54
slightly different perspectives and
01:07:56
feelings around that. But for me, you
01:07:58
know, I I've spoken to to people
01:08:01
involved through that process and um
01:08:03
it's been a learning opportunity for a
01:08:05
lot of people that's come about as a
01:08:07
result of that. Um and yeah, I'm I'm
01:08:10
just grateful that it's gone on to to
01:08:11
have some sort of positive impact in
01:08:13
terms of how things are done now. Um so
01:08:15
that hopefully next time it doesn't
01:08:16
have, you know, it can save someone from
01:08:18
falling through some of those same
01:08:20
cracks.
01:08:22
So, is this the point where your mom
01:08:24
goes to a bar called the Pegasus Arms
01:08:26
[laughter] and gets like two double
01:08:30
shots of vodka?
01:08:31
>> Yeah, this is [laughter]
01:08:32
And mom
01:08:34
hates when the story comes up, which is
01:08:36
so funny. Yeah, sorry about that one,
01:08:38
Mom. Um [laughter]
01:08:40
she and because it paints it's just like
01:08:42
I can't believe she ever let this story
01:08:44
slip because it just paints her in the
01:08:46
light in a light which is so much not
01:08:48
who she is as well which is what's so
01:08:50
funny about it. M is very very um she
01:08:54
she's she's she's fun. She's great but
01:08:56
she's very you know she's she's not a
01:08:58
big drinker one. Um in fact she's she's
01:09:00
she's spent most of her life sort of not
01:09:02
really drinking at all and she's not
01:09:03
really much of a drinker now either. Um
01:09:05
but she's very she's very responsible.
01:09:07
Um, she's very levelheaded. She's very,
01:09:11
I guess mature is a funny word to use to
01:09:13
describe an adult anyway, but she's
01:09:15
just, yeah, she's a very a very normal,
01:09:17
upstanding citizen. Um and somehow um to
01:09:21
her to her ongoing perpetual detriment
01:09:23
let slip the fact that yeah that that
01:09:24
that that one of the ways that she
01:09:26
responded to that in the immediate
01:09:27
aftermath was was was with a few drinks
01:09:30
um to try and take the edge off so that
01:09:32
and and as she says when she told this
01:09:34
story it's so that she could go back and
01:09:35
sort of put her emotions aside and be
01:09:37
there to support me. And in fairness I
01:09:39
just told her that if she was going to
01:09:41
cry she had to get the [ __ ] out. So, she
01:09:43
was working to find a I guess an
01:09:44
alternative solution to mean that she
01:09:46
could kind of be there and I guess
01:09:48
taking the edge off things a bit was was
01:09:50
what it was in that moment. Um, but
01:09:52
sorry, Mom.
01:09:53
>> Cuz you you did um you did a documentary
01:09:55
and your mom told the story um
01:09:57
firsthand. And when I saw that, I
01:09:59
thought I thought, "Oh, yeah. Yeah,
01:10:01
[laughter] it paints a picture of the
01:10:03
type of character she is." Yeah.
01:10:05
>> But then you read the first book that
01:10:06
you put out called um What Cancer Taught
01:10:09
Me and
01:10:10
>> uh there's these wonderful parts
01:10:12
peppered through the book of your mom's
01:10:13
sort of I guess you'd call it a diary or
01:10:15
letters to
01:10:16
>> Yes, it is. Yeah. She wrote me a she
01:10:17
wrote me a letter every day when I was
01:10:18
going through treatment and it was
01:10:20
about, you know, what had gone in
01:10:21
practical terms, it was about what had
01:10:23
gone on and the treatment and how I was
01:10:24
doing, but more than that, it was just a
01:10:26
really broad Yeah. capturing of that
01:10:28
time and the emotions and thoughts
01:10:29
around it as well. It was really, really
01:10:30
powerful.
01:10:31
>> Yeah. They're like love letters to you
01:10:32
really in a way.
01:10:34
>> They They're a mom's a mom's sort of
01:10:35
care and affection for a son going
01:10:37
through this this time and it and it you
01:10:39
know a lot of stuff shines through and
01:10:40
it's really powerful.
01:10:41
>> Yeah. And you read them and you you
01:10:43
think part of it she's writing it for
01:10:46
you for for something that because
01:10:48
you're not able to fully remember what's
01:10:49
going through so you'll have an
01:10:50
encounter of it
01:10:51
>> and then part of it on like on the the
01:10:53
flip side of that is um a diary for
01:10:55
herself in case it's a negative outcome
01:10:57
as well. Um, yeah, it's multi-layered
01:10:59
and it's um, yeah, it's definitely like
01:11:01
a lot deeper than than a lady that just
01:11:03
um does a bit of dating.
01:11:04
>> It's funny, eh, because like [laughter]
01:11:05
the drinking story paints a real vivid
01:11:08
picture of mom and it paints like
01:11:09
complete opposite of who she is. Like it
01:11:11
really I don't just I don't it's not
01:11:13
like I'm just leaping to mom's defense
01:11:14
here, but it really is I find it quite
01:11:16
amusing that the the picture it paints
01:11:18
is just could not be more diametrically
01:11:20
opposed to who she is as a person. So
01:11:22
yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So during this
01:11:24
time, what can you It was Is there a
01:11:26
point where you can remember the worst
01:11:28
physical pain you experienced?
01:11:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. There was and there was lots
01:11:32
of different It's quite funny. I often
01:11:34
get asked that by particularly students.
01:11:35
Students are kind of like what was the
01:11:36
what was the most gruesome or gory or
01:11:38
painful thing that happened and I'm like
01:11:40
cool like I'm on the same page like
01:11:41
these are some of the best stories. So I
01:11:44
used to talk a lot more about some of
01:11:45
these you know medical procedures and
01:11:47
things. I actually I knocked that on the
01:11:48
head in at the end of 2023 because I I
01:11:51
figured I'd kept telly over the course
01:11:53
of 2023 I'd had 14 audience members pass
01:11:56
out when I when I told them about some
01:11:58
of these medical procedures which I'd
01:11:59
had [laughter]
01:12:00
at some point.
01:12:01
>> Well, you think they'd be quite a
01:12:01
grizzly sort of bunch.
01:12:03
>> Uh yeah, 100%. And and it's quite funny.
01:12:05
always um you know I' sort of told some
01:12:08
of the same sort of stories and talked
01:12:09
through the same sort of things with um
01:12:12
with my uh with adult audiences I guess
01:12:15
you'd say as well as companies and
01:12:16
businesses and organizations and teams
01:12:18
that I was working with but it's
01:12:19
[snorts] always the teenage boys that
01:12:21
pass out the girls are way tougher way
01:12:24
stronger the men seem to get through it
01:12:26
all right and and and the women are
01:12:27
fantastic as teenage boys just drop like
01:12:29
flies and I had I have one presentation
01:12:31
to a group of sort of year nine and 10
01:12:33
boys so there 14 15year-olds and they
01:12:36
were like, "Yeah, yeah." Like, you know,
01:12:37
tell us the gruesome, gory stories.
01:12:38
Yeah. Yeah. And then four people passed
01:12:41
out in one presentation. And I was like,
01:12:43
I I can't keep doing this. It's a health
01:12:45
and safety hazard at some point. Like,
01:12:47
it becomes a it becomes um it just
01:12:50
becomes wrong to to stand up on stage
01:12:52
and tell these stories when you know
01:12:53
there's a decent chance that someone's
01:12:54
going to flake. So, um
01:12:56
>> All right, let's do it one last time,
01:12:57
though. [laughter] But for anyone that's
01:12:59
driving a car right now, maybe just pull
01:13:02
over
01:13:02
>> deep breaths and and I as I used to tell
01:13:05
the students, you know, if you're going
01:13:05
to pass out, put your head between your
01:13:07
knees. Um probably not while you're
01:13:08
driving might not be great, but I
01:13:10
[snorts] don't know, some of the some of
01:13:11
the things which stand out were um
01:13:13
something called a bone marrow aspirate,
01:13:14
which is where they take a sample of
01:13:16
your your bone marrow. It's obviously
01:13:17
inside your bones. Um and the way they
01:13:19
do it is through your pelvis. you know,
01:13:22
if you if you touch the back of your,
01:13:23
you know, your lower back where where it
01:13:24
meets your, you know, sort of your
01:13:26
pelvis, the one on each side, left and
01:13:28
right, you've got these bumps or lumps.
01:13:30
Fancy name is an iliac crest. It's sort
01:13:32
of the back side of your pelvis. That's
01:13:34
where they they go in through. Um, and
01:13:36
basically they take sort of like a the
01:13:38
easiest way to describe it is it's
01:13:40
basically like a receipt spike. You know
01:13:41
how like at cafes and restaurants where
01:13:42
they spike receipts? is basically one of
01:13:44
those. And the doctor, whilst you're
01:13:46
awake for all of this, basically hammers
01:13:48
the um you know, this this big metal
01:13:50
spike through the skin, through that
01:13:52
thin layer of flesh, punches a hole
01:13:54
through inside the bone um and then sort
01:13:56
of digs around on the inside of your
01:13:58
bone and and takes a sample of the bone
01:13:59
marrow. But you know, this process of of
01:14:01
hammering the spike through you, in my
01:14:03
case, you I was young, I had pretty
01:14:04
robust, strong bones. And I remember
01:14:06
being in this hospital bed with the
01:14:08
doctor hammering the spike through and
01:14:10
sort of being thrown around in the the
01:14:12
gurnie like flailing around because of
01:14:15
the force that the doctor had to use to
01:14:17
hammer the spike through my through my
01:14:18
pelvis and it was you know you're awake
01:14:20
for all of us. It was it was horrific
01:14:22
and I remember crying. I cried. I cried
01:14:24
like a baby. I cried and cried and cried
01:14:27
and then you know other things um
01:14:29
intratheals or sort of spinal taps. Um I
01:14:32
had had had chemotherapy put into my
01:14:33
spinal column and um yeah more people
01:14:37
have experienced those than than the
01:14:39
bone marrow aspirates but that was that
01:14:41
was horrific. That was that was really
01:14:43
bad as well. Um and I was having those
01:14:46
weekly during treatment um as as part of
01:14:48
my treatment protocol. So there was
01:14:50
you'd get through one and you still knew
01:14:51
you had another one coming and another
01:14:52
one coming after that. And um that was
01:14:55
yeah that was really that was quite that
01:14:57
was quite bad. you know, the the needle
01:14:59
would punch into your spinal column and
01:15:00
there would be a distinct pop as it went
01:15:01
into your spinal column and then the
01:15:03
needle would um hit the nerves which run
01:15:06
through your spine towards your legs.
01:15:07
So, you'd get shooting pains through
01:15:09
your through your legs when the needles
01:15:11
hit different parts and you get sort of
01:15:13
electric shocks shooting down your legs
01:15:15
and it was it was that was pretty
01:15:16
horrendous. Um I guess even yeah in
01:15:18
terms of the pain strictly there was you
01:15:20
know the cancer itself the diagnosis the
01:15:23
cancer in my jaw or pre-diagnosis was
01:15:26
that was remarkably painful um and yeah
01:15:29
there was there was even a period where
01:15:31
I started to get these horrendous pains
01:15:33
in my uh legs the bones in my legs which
01:15:36
felt sort of inexplicably at the time as
01:15:38
if my legs were you know sort of sort of
01:15:41
breaking um and came to find out in
01:15:44
retrospect that you know with my cancer
01:15:46
it's you blood cancer. So, it's produced
01:15:48
inside the bones and the bone marrow.
01:15:49
Um, because it's so fast growing though,
01:15:52
the the cancer cells can't get out of
01:15:54
the bones fast enough. And so, like if
01:15:56
you shake a bottle of fizzy drink and
01:15:57
the pressure builds up inside, um,
01:16:00
that's basically what happened to my leg
01:16:01
bones and and the pain, this incredible
01:16:03
pain was basically the legs breaking and
01:16:05
and sort of developing these micro
01:16:07
fractures from the pressure building up
01:16:08
inside them. Um so yeah there was there
01:16:11
was [laughter] a a fair few you know
01:16:13
painful bits and gory stories and and
01:16:15
stuff along the way but at the end of
01:16:16
the day it was not like I say
01:16:18
particularly um unique or remarkable and
01:16:21
and often I sort of found myself looking
01:16:22
around and feeling kind of grateful for
01:16:24
the situation that that I was in
01:16:26
relative to other patients. There was a
01:16:27
guy in the room next door to me at one
01:16:28
point who had a brain tumor and the way
01:16:30
they were treating it is they drilled a
01:16:32
a hole through his skull and put a port
01:16:33
in and they were basically putting
01:16:35
chemotherapy through a hole in his head
01:16:37
onto his brain every day. And I was
01:16:38
thinking, well, you know, if he can get
01:16:39
through that and he's just as human as
01:16:42
as I am, then, you know, presumably I
01:16:44
can get through this as as well. Um, so
01:16:47
yeah,
01:16:49
>> why why can't they give you like a local
01:16:51
or a general force [laughter]
01:16:54
fix on the receipts thing? It's a great
01:16:56
visual, by the way.
01:16:57
>> Terrible visual, but a great
01:16:59
>> So you get you get a local for that. Um,
01:17:01
but the way that it was described to me
01:17:03
and definitely the way that it felt was
01:17:04
that you can sort of numb up the skin
01:17:07
and the flesh around there, but you're
01:17:09
particularly when you're young, your
01:17:10
bones have nerve endings which grow on
01:17:12
the outside of the bones and you can't
01:17:13
numb those up. Um, so you don't feel it
01:17:16
go through the skin. Um, but you do feel
01:17:18
it go through the the bone and it was
01:17:20
Yeah, she was pretty she was pretty
01:17:22
rough.
01:17:23
>> It's a great endorsement for up and go
01:17:24
though, eh? [laughter]
01:17:26
>> This guy's got bone density like we
01:17:28
haven't seen before. Yeah, this guy off
01:17:30
the charts. This guy has been drinking 3
01:17:32
lers a day for the past month or
01:17:33
something.
01:17:34
>> Like, we're never going to get through
01:17:35
these things.
01:17:36
>> Yeah. Calcium content through the roof.
01:17:38
>> So, um Yeah. So, all all up your your
01:17:40
cancer journey was like it was very
01:17:43
brief, eh? Very brief. So, it was like
01:17:45
to towards the end of uh 2015 that you
01:17:47
get sick and then by January 29 you're
01:17:49
in remission.
01:17:50
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, it was Yeah. 3 months of
01:17:52
of treatment.
01:17:53
>> Um and I feel incredibly lucky for that.
01:17:56
uh like I met and knew and was close to
01:17:59
other young people through that time who
01:18:01
had very very long roads ahead of them
01:18:03
for for them and their family to to
01:18:05
travel. You know, you'd meet you meet
01:18:06
six-year-olds that had four years worth
01:18:08
of chemotherapy ahead of them and you
01:18:10
just think that you know that is just
01:18:12
>> to use the phrase again that really is
01:18:13
just an abomination of nature. It's just
01:18:15
so wrong. It's just so so wrong um to
01:18:18
see young people who have to walk this
01:18:20
this path and and their families that
01:18:22
have to walk this path with them. And
01:18:23
for me, you know, 3 months of treatment,
01:18:25
you can do anything for 3 months, right?
01:18:27
It was it was it was short. It was
01:18:28
sharp. It was either going to work or it
01:18:30
wasn't. And I'm just lucky that in my
01:18:32
case, it it it worked. And and after
01:18:33
that, I was I was out the other side and
01:18:35
and my body began to heal and recover
01:18:37
and repair. And um my health is is is
01:18:40
now better than it's ever been before,
01:18:42
which is I'm lucky to be able to say
01:18:43
that in itself. I know lots of other
01:18:44
young people and and other survivors who
01:18:46
have um you know not recovered to to to
01:18:49
the same level of standard that they
01:18:50
were at beforehand who have been left
01:18:52
with permanent side effects as a result
01:18:54
of the treatment and whilst I I had some
01:18:56
of those for a period of time um and and
01:18:58
for the long term I'm I'm now you know
01:18:59
fitter and healthier and better than
01:19:00
I've ever been before physically.
01:19:02
>> So so January that um announcement on
01:19:05
January 29 was that a special day for
01:19:06
you or for you was it just like yep good
01:19:08
this is what this is what I expected?
01:19:10
>> Yeah. um like for your parents like I I
01:19:13
imagine it was a huge um moment of
01:19:16
elation.
01:19:16
>> Yeah. I think when you say the 29th, you
01:19:19
mean being announced in in remission the
01:19:22
first time? Yeah.
01:19:23
>> News. Yeah.
01:19:23
>> Well, well, yeah. I said when I said
01:19:25
before that I've I sort of, you know,
01:19:26
felt that that nothingness when I was
01:19:28
diagnosed and I've only felt it one time
01:19:30
ever since then. That was that was the
01:19:31
second time. When I was told that I was
01:19:32
in remission, when I was told that the
01:19:34
cancer was gone, I once again felt the
01:19:37
exact same thing that I'd felt when I
01:19:38
was diagnosed, which was um nothing.
01:19:40
absolutely nothing. A complete nothing
01:19:42
and not any of the things you'd expect.
01:19:45
I didn't feel um relieved. Um I didn't
01:19:48
feel happy. I didn't feel like a weight
01:19:51
had been lifted. Um I guess even as an
01:19:53
18-year-old guy, I didn't feel that on
01:19:55
behalf of my my parents even. I didn't
01:19:57
sort of I didn't I didn't sort of
01:19:58
perceive how powerful or impactful it
01:20:00
was for them because for me, I was
01:20:02
probably still very much in the space of
01:20:03
I knew I was going to get through this.
01:20:05
I can't believe you guys ever doubted
01:20:06
that there was a possibility that
01:20:08
anything else could could kind of
01:20:09
happen. Um, and so
01:20:12
>> yeah, I mean my memories of that time,
01:20:14
like I say, are just being pretty pretty
01:20:16
neutral, pretty kind of blank. Um, and I
01:20:20
was I was very aware of how lucky I was
01:20:22
to have made it to that point. Um, but
01:20:24
probably the full weight of the emotion
01:20:26
hadn't hadn't come through or sunk in at
01:20:28
that point.
01:20:29
>> What's your relationship like or what's
01:20:31
your thoughts on manifestation? Cuz you
01:20:33
[clears throat]
01:20:34
>> I mean it it sort of worked out the way
01:20:36
you the way you sort of visualized.
01:20:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, it's a funny one a
01:20:41
because I think that at the end of the
01:20:42
day
01:20:44
I suspect that there would be or is some
01:20:48
sort of proof or evidence out there
01:20:49
whether it's anecdotal or not that
01:20:51
people's attitude as they go through I
01:20:54
guess any form of adversity or suffering
01:20:56
goes towards a you know achieving an
01:20:58
outcome right and I I suppose that
01:21:01
theoretically anyway cancer is probably
01:21:03
no different to that but the reason I'm
01:21:05
quite cautious around that is because if
01:21:08
If you make this case that yeah you know
01:21:10
I got through the cancer because of this
01:21:12
manifestation or because I was so you
01:21:13
know positive or optimistic because I
01:21:15
expected to you then end up creating
01:21:17
this this false negative um where you
01:21:20
suggest that anyone who doesn't survive
01:21:22
or doesn't make it through or who isn't
01:21:23
as lucky as I have been sort of had some
01:21:26
sort of role in in in causing or
01:21:28
creating that outcome for themselves
01:21:30
which is just isn't true. Um so whilst I
01:21:32
guess yeah I I I guess there's there's
01:21:35
maybe a case to be made or it's it's
01:21:36
entirely unknowable but I guess there's
01:21:38
a case to be made that perhaps my um
01:21:40
expectation that I would get through you
01:21:42
know came to or went towards achieving
01:21:43
that outcome but I certainly don't think
01:21:46
that we can you know always jump to
01:21:47
those conclusions because otherwise you
01:21:49
end up creating this you know the
01:21:51
inverse is a is a false narrative. Yeah,
01:21:53
it's it's a tricky one, isn't it?
01:21:55
Because um you know, people like to say
01:21:56
things like, "Yeah, you know, she kicked
01:21:58
cancer's ass, whatever." But it's kind
01:22:00
of saying that anyone that doesn't kick
01:22:01
cancer's ass wasn't enough of a fighter
01:22:04
or didn't try hard enough or do
01:22:05
something. But, uh I think there's a lot
01:22:07
of like genetic luck and other things
01:22:08
that sort of come
01:22:09
>> 100% and and I think
01:22:11
>> I guess the language around that's
01:22:12
probably shifted a lot in recent years
01:22:14
as well. Um you know I think people are
01:22:16
sort of um more hesitant to frame things
01:22:19
as you know fighting being a fighter or
01:22:21
fighting cancer or you know beating
01:22:23
cancer like you say kicking cancer's ass
01:22:24
and coming out the other side because I
01:22:26
suppose there is a risk that it creates
01:22:27
this this inverse as well um which isn't
01:22:30
which isn't true. Yeah.
01:22:32
>> Did you did you are you familiar with
01:22:34
the term survivors guild?
01:22:35
>> Yeah.
01:22:36
>> Yeah. Did did you have any of that at
01:22:37
the time or have you had any since then
01:22:39
or
01:22:39
>> I
01:22:39
>> were you just in in the woods such a
01:22:41
brief time you [laughter] didn't you get
01:22:43
to form connections? I tell you what, I
01:22:44
I don't think I've ever experienced any
01:22:46
survivors guilt. Um, but I've I I've
01:22:49
carried and continue to carry a whole
01:22:51
lot of
01:22:51
>> like a shitload of survivors gratitude,
01:22:54
I suppose I'd call it. Um,
01:22:56
>> you know, for me, um,
01:23:00
you turn up into the hospital, right?
01:23:02
And and in my case, you know, I was
01:23:04
treated in what's called the BMTU, which
01:23:05
is, you know, this this ward for adult
01:23:08
patients. as an 18-year-old, I wasn't
01:23:09
there. But I spent a lot of time in
01:23:10
another ward called Chalk, which is the
01:23:12
Children's Hematology and Oncology
01:23:13
Center. And that's, you know, you know,
01:23:15
that's that's that's kids with cancer,
01:23:17
right?
01:23:18
>> And you turn up into this hospital, you
01:23:21
you're diagnosed with cancer at age 18.
01:23:22
And I expected that when I got to that
01:23:24
place and I looked around, I would be
01:23:26
surrounded by people who looked like my
01:23:28
grandparents, right? I thought it' be an
01:23:29
old people's sort of setup.
01:23:31
>> Or if people were particularly unlucky,
01:23:34
really unlucky, I thought maybe there'd
01:23:35
be some people my parents age there. And
01:23:37
I turned up in this this ward chalk and
01:23:39
spent time in there. And you look around
01:23:41
and you are surrounded by people who
01:23:43
look a hell of a lot like yourself,
01:23:45
people, you know, my age at the time,
01:23:46
people considerably younger than me. Um,
01:23:48
and you know, I I I don't know whether I
01:23:52
was naive or oblivious or a bit stupid,
01:23:55
but I genuinely never comprehended until
01:23:57
that moment that I saw it with my own
01:23:58
eyes that each and every day just up the
01:24:01
road from where I've been living, going
01:24:02
to school, going out to town, there were
01:24:04
dozens and dozens of other young people
01:24:06
with goals and dreams and hopes and
01:24:08
ambitions and whatever just as real and
01:24:10
vivid as mine who through no fault of
01:24:12
their own were robbed of that
01:24:14
opportunity to go out and to chase those
01:24:16
goals and hopes and dreams And for me, I
01:24:19
know that I was incredibly lucky to make
01:24:22
it out of that place, to walk out of
01:24:23
there. There's a lot of people who I was
01:24:24
close to, a lot of people who I knew who
01:24:27
didn't have that same privilege, who who
01:24:28
didn't get to move forward and move on
01:24:30
in life. And so, for me, I feel a sense
01:24:32
of responsibility to live my life to the
01:24:34
fullest on their behalf. And I think
01:24:36
people can sort of comprehend that and
01:24:38
understand that if the roles had have
01:24:40
been reversed realistically that's all I
01:24:41
ever could have asked of anyone else is
01:24:43
that if I didn't get to walk out of
01:24:45
there and they did that they just went
01:24:46
and gave it a decent [ __ ] shot on my
01:24:48
behalf. Right. And so I carry that on on
01:24:51
my shoulders. But more than that I don't
01:24:54
think that that's a responsibility which
01:24:55
I just bear alone cuz I can't really
01:24:57
figure out why it would be like is it my
01:24:58
job because I was lucky or is it my job
01:25:00
cuz I met these people or is it my job
01:25:02
cuz I saw this place? No. I really think
01:25:04
that collectively we uh as as as you
01:25:07
know society and and and particularly
01:25:09
young people that I speak to as well now
01:25:11
have an obligation to just go and live
01:25:13
life to the absolute max the absolute
01:25:16
fullest on behalf of those people that
01:25:18
don't get the opportunity to do so. And
01:25:19
I hope that that doesn't come across as
01:25:21
sort of patronizing or sanctimonious.
01:25:23
But for me I only feel this way because
01:25:25
I I know how lucky I have been. I've
01:25:27
seen that place. I've met some of those
01:25:28
people who weren't quite as lucky. And
01:25:31
whilst there's not survivors guilt,
01:25:33
there's a hell of a lot of survivors
01:25:34
gratitude for the fact that I can still
01:25:36
now go out and and and do all of these
01:25:37
things which I get to do. And I think
01:25:38
that that really spurs me on every day.
01:25:41
>> No, I I love that. I I think you've got
01:25:43
a like a second chance and you're not
01:25:45
squandering it. And it would be easy um
01:25:47
you know, because your your thing seems
01:25:49
so your whole process seems so
01:25:51
streamlined and seamless, you know, in
01:25:53
and out, couple of months later, done.
01:25:55
Um it would be easy to especially with
01:25:57
the passage of s uh time like you sort
01:26:00
of lose the appreciation for it or take
01:26:01
it for granted but it's it's clear that
01:26:03
you're not
01:26:04
>> uh I think that that's that's got to be
01:26:07
a conscious sort of choice and decision
01:26:08
and in all honesty it has faded in in
01:26:10
part. I don't think go away. It'll
01:26:12
always be an integral part of of who I
01:26:14
am and how I view life and how I feel in
01:26:16
in in the world. But I had a really
01:26:18
powerful chat with a guy um a number of
01:26:20
years ago now when I spoke at an event
01:26:22
at a conference and afterwards he came
01:26:23
up to me and he said, "Hey, you know, I
01:26:25
went through um cancer when I was when I
01:26:27
was the same age as as you went through
01:26:29
it and I just wanted to let you know
01:26:30
that all of those things that you think
01:26:32
and feel now, all of those positive
01:26:34
changes, all of the gratitude, the
01:26:36
perspective, all of these good things
01:26:37
which have come about as a result of the
01:26:39
cancer, they do fade with time. you have
01:26:42
to consciously deliberately try to to
01:26:44
try to cling on to these things and hold
01:26:45
on to them because they will lessen and
01:26:48
deplete and and sort of shrivel up a
01:26:50
little bit as you you get further and
01:26:52
further away from that experience and
01:26:53
time of life. So for me, yeah, I guess I
01:26:56
try and cling on to cling on to the good
01:26:58
and the positive change which has come
01:26:59
about through that and as a result of
01:27:01
that. Yeah.
01:27:02
>> And what about your mental health? It
01:27:04
seems like it was rock solid through
01:27:05
this time. Um has it been good since
01:27:07
then?
01:27:08
>> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think like I say,
01:27:10
I've been um I've I've probably been at
01:27:14
times, as we touched on earlier, too
01:27:16
good at just focusing on the good. And I
01:27:19
guess maybe maybe that's sort of like
01:27:23
the flip side of that that ramble that I
01:27:25
just went on there about, you know,
01:27:26
living life with a sense that, you know,
01:27:29
everything every single day is always
01:27:31
going to be better than the alternative
01:27:33
that I had. Right? when when you almost
01:27:34
die and you continue moving forward,
01:27:36
you've sort of you've sort of got to go
01:27:38
into every day
01:27:40
>> kind of grateful for how things go
01:27:42
regardless of how good or how [ __ ] they
01:27:43
are. And I think previously I've
01:27:45
probably been not good enough at
01:27:48
actually stopping and processing and
01:27:50
thinking and feeling emotions because I
01:27:51
just go, "Well, [ __ ] I guess this is
01:27:53
better than having died." um which
01:27:55
>> in some ways is a really powerful, you
01:27:57
know, motivator and sense of gratitude
01:27:58
and in other ways is just a really
01:28:01
profoundly unhealthy way to to view and
01:28:04
think about mental health and and how
01:28:06
bad things um just happen sometimes in
01:28:08
life. So, um yeah, my mental health has
01:28:10
has been has been good. Um, but I've
01:28:13
still got as as we all do, a lot to a
01:28:15
long way to go and a lot to learn and
01:28:16
and probably need to do do better in
01:28:19
terms of how I Yeah, in terms of how I
01:28:22
engage with myself around mental health,
01:28:24
I think,
01:28:25
>> oh, spoiler alert, mate. And it never
01:28:26
never ends. It's an ongoing treadmill.
01:28:29
I'm 52. I'm still trying to get better,
01:28:31
still learning. But I think that's an
01:28:32
exciting thing about life that you never
01:28:35
there's never a peak that you reach, you
01:28:36
know? There's always another peak.
01:28:38
>> There's and and I guess that is that is
01:28:40
the excitement like you say. Yeah.
01:28:41
>> Um but I guess as well in a sense that's
01:28:44
kind of why I'm so passionate about this
01:28:46
resilience side of things is that that's
01:28:48
quite I guess that's quite empowering
01:28:50
the knowledge that yeah you sort of
01:28:52
never there's always another challenge
01:28:54
to come. There's always some other [ __ ]
01:28:55
that's going to happen. There's always
01:28:56
some other problem which is coming your
01:28:57
way but if you have the capability to
01:29:00
try and sort of steal yourself and and
01:29:02
learn and prepare and develop and and
01:29:05
hone these skills of resilience that
01:29:07
hopefully you'll be in a better place
01:29:08
when those come. And if not, at the very
01:29:11
least, you can at least go into them as
01:29:12
the opportunity to learn and and treat
01:29:14
adversity as a bit of a training ground
01:29:16
instead of as a a victim. I think that's
01:29:19
one of the things which is most
01:29:19
empowering about learning about
01:29:21
resilience and and I guess my hope with
01:29:23
this book in terms of equipping people
01:29:24
with some skills around resilience is
01:29:26
that when things go wrong, you can
01:29:28
actually face it from the perspective of
01:29:30
this is a a training ground, a learning
01:29:32
opportunity. this is something which I
01:29:34
can can can become better from as
01:29:36
opposed to just oh god I've ended up in
01:29:39
this shitty situation that I don't want
01:29:41
to be in this sucks and there's nothing
01:29:42
good which can possibly come from this.
01:29:44
It allows you to meet adversity as a as
01:29:46
a as a as a survivor rather than a
01:29:48
victim.
01:29:48
>> Yeah, I love I love the path you're on
01:29:50
and um your resilience the more
01:29:52
awareness about it and the more that
01:29:53
people um can learn that it's something
01:29:55
that can be you know trained rather than
01:29:57
you're born with or you're not um I
01:29:59
think the better and hypotheticals are a
01:30:01
little bit they're they're silly.
01:30:02
They're kind of pointless. But um yeah,
01:30:04
how would life [clears throat]
01:30:05
potentially look now had it not been for
01:30:07
the cancer?
01:30:07
>> Yeah, I don't it's a good question. I
01:30:09
don't know. I was dumb. It's a dumb
01:30:10
question.
01:30:11
>> Well, no, it's it's not. I mean, it's
01:30:12
it's it's an interesting thing to ponder
01:30:14
and it's something which I've definitely
01:30:15
found myself pondering more recently as
01:30:16
well.
01:30:17
>> I think like I say, I would have been up
01:30:19
here. Um I would have I would have
01:30:21
studied in commerce and law. I think I
01:30:23
probably would have gone down the law
01:30:24
pathway. Life would have been life would
01:30:26
have been life. Life would have been
01:30:27
presumably good and happy and and
01:30:29
whatever. Um but you know for me in all
01:30:31
honesty I feel like I'm moving to a
01:30:34
stage a stage and phase of life where
01:30:36
I'm potentially um looking towards
01:30:38
moving into something different anyway.
01:30:40
You know, for me, I've had an amazing 10
01:30:42
years um traveling and and speaking to,
01:30:44
you know, over 100,000 people around the
01:30:46
world, having written a couple of these
01:30:48
books. And in a lot of ways, I feel like
01:30:50
whilst I'm I'm really grateful for those
01:30:52
opportunities, I I very much enjoy that
01:30:54
work, I feel like I'm maybe moving
01:30:56
towards um the next stage and and phase
01:30:59
of life. Um I don't want to be stuck
01:31:01
with this um teen cancer survivor thing
01:31:04
forever. you know, I um no, no one wants
01:31:08
to be defined by something which they
01:31:09
did when they were 18. For for better or
01:31:11
worse, no one wants to be remembered for
01:31:13
something which they did when they were
01:31:15
in in high school, right? And and as I
01:31:17
say, I'm I'm so grateful for the support
01:31:18
and care um and and and everything which
01:31:21
has come about, all of the opportunities
01:31:23
which have come about as a result. But I
01:31:24
feel like I'm ready to to move out into
01:31:26
the world and to to do something
01:31:28
different and to to to be something else
01:31:30
and and hopefully to become something
01:31:32
more. Um, and I don't know what that
01:31:34
opportunity will be yet. Um, if you find
01:31:36
it, let me know. If anyone listening
01:31:38
knows about it, be sure to get in touch.
01:31:39
I'd love to hear about it. Um, but I
01:31:42
think, you know, I'm moving into a stage
01:31:43
of life where I'm ready for for the next
01:31:44
journey, the next adventure, and I'm
01:31:46
excited for that.
01:31:47
>> Oh, you're playing dumb. You've got
01:31:48
ideas. I bet there's a note section on
01:31:50
your phone with a you you must have like
01:31:52
a sort of idea of what you want to move
01:31:54
into next.
01:31:54
>> Yeah, I can definitely see myself doing
01:31:56
a few different things. Um, and I can
01:31:58
definitely see places and ways in which
01:32:00
I can can hopefully add value and
01:32:02
particularly add value given, you know,
01:32:03
the opportunities and lessons and
01:32:04
learnings which I've I've taken over the
01:32:06
past couple of years. I don't think
01:32:07
that, you know, I don't feel stuck
01:32:10
>> um in this in this this this stage or
01:32:11
space of life where I'm at now. Um, but
01:32:13
it's time for me to go out and to prove
01:32:15
myself that to to prove to myself that I
01:32:17
can do something different and be
01:32:18
something more.
01:32:19
>> Yeah. Well, you're you're a guy right
01:32:21
now that loves type two fun. Um you
01:32:24
showed me a photo before we came in of
01:32:25
um you and I side by side in the in the
01:32:27
Kepler challenge last December which is
01:32:29
a a 60k mountain run. Um so you love um
01:32:33
like putting yourselves in situ
01:32:34
deliberate situations where it's going
01:32:36
to be tough to be challenging.
01:32:37
>> Absolutely.
01:32:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Why is that? Do you think
01:32:39
that would have been there without the
01:32:40
cancer?
01:32:41
>> Uh no it wouldn't have. It definitely
01:32:42
wouldn't have been for me. you know,
01:32:44
endurance sport has been a really big
01:32:46
part of the last sort of five or six
01:32:47
years for me from um sort of ultra
01:32:49
running and and multisport in terms of
01:32:51
the coast to coast and endurance
01:32:53
cycling. Um that all came about because
01:32:56
in all honesty, like I say, I sucked at
01:32:59
sport when I was when I was at school. I
01:33:00
was like the kid that got chosen last
01:33:02
for the team in PE and when you got
01:33:04
picked for the team, the whole team
01:33:05
would grown that you were on their team.
01:33:06
Like really, this is this is again not
01:33:08
humility. This is just reality. I was
01:33:10
the kid that swam widths instead of
01:33:12
lengths at school swimming sports day,
01:33:14
which I said that to someone recently
01:33:15
and they said like, "What are you what
01:33:16
do you mean? What are you talking
01:33:17
about?" I mean, literally I had to swim
01:33:19
the widths across the pool instead of
01:33:21
the lengths because I couldn't get from
01:33:22
one end of the pool to the other. So,
01:33:24
they made me do across [laughter] the
01:33:26
pool instead. And like I say, I I'm I'm
01:33:29
not talented in sport. And then I
01:33:32
remember getting to the end of year 10
01:33:33
at school. I remember I vividly remember
01:33:35
my last ever PE class that I had and I
01:33:37
wasn't taking PE as a subject the
01:33:39
following year. And I remember getting
01:33:40
to the end of that class and going to
01:33:42
the locker rooms and getting changed and
01:33:43
thinking to myself, that is the last
01:33:44
time I will ever exercise again in the
01:33:47
rest of my life because no one will ever
01:33:48
make me go for a run or or exercise ever
01:33:51
again and I suck at it and I don't want
01:33:52
to do it anymore. So I'm not going to
01:33:53
ever have to do it again. This is great.
01:33:56
And then [gasps]
01:33:56
I guess so so first of all going through
01:33:58
the cancer showed me a couple of things.
01:34:00
One that my body had a a hell of a lot
01:34:02
more to give than I expected it to.
01:34:04
There were times when, you know, during
01:34:05
treatment I was so incredibly sick that
01:34:07
I did not think I could it could get any
01:34:10
worse or I could enjoy anymore and I
01:34:12
always could. And the second thing was
01:34:14
that I realized that my brain was a
01:34:16
really big part to unlocking that. Like
01:34:17
I came to see the impact that um yeah
01:34:20
that my inner inner thoughts and and
01:34:22
that my head had in terms of controlling
01:34:23
my body. And because of that, I guess I
01:34:26
fell into this this world of endurance
01:34:28
sport because it's the only thing I've
01:34:29
ever found since then where you can put
01:34:31
yourself in a situation where you think
01:34:33
you've got nothing more to give and it
01:34:35
somehow turns out that you do and two
01:34:37
that the key to unlocking that is within
01:34:39
your within your head. So got into the
01:34:41
ultr running side of things and um I've
01:34:43
done a fair bit of that over the past
01:34:44
couple of years. But as I say to kids at
01:34:47
school when I go to speak at schools
01:34:48
like you know I I I was the kid that
01:34:51
sucked at sport. If you are the kid that
01:34:52
sucks at sport, that gets picked last
01:34:54
for the PE team, then endurance sport is
01:34:56
the sport for you because you don't
01:34:58
actually have to be good at anything. I
01:34:59
still suck at running. It's just that I
01:35:01
can run for 10 hours straight. You don't
01:35:03
have to be good at it. You just have to
01:35:04
be able to do it for a really long time.
01:35:05
And I still suck, but I can sort of
01:35:07
outlast other people. Um so, so, so
01:35:10
endurance sport is the sport for you if
01:35:11
you're stuck at sport.
01:35:12
>> I'm I'm laughing along with you cuz I
01:35:14
see I see parallels. I was the same with
01:35:15
sport. Um so team sport, I felt like I
01:35:18
was always so uncoordinated and so
01:35:20
useless. I'm letting other people down.
01:35:22
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Sure.
01:35:23
>> Cuz if you're running, it's like
01:35:24
>> that's feeling as well. I mean, like
01:35:26
that's especially when you're you're
01:35:27
teenagers and you're you're mean to each
01:35:29
other, right? Like you let other people
01:35:30
down, you know about it. You get told
01:35:32
about it pretty quickly.
01:35:34
>> Um and yeah, the running side of things,
01:35:36
yeah, being individual is is gives that.
01:35:39
But in many ways, you know, there's
01:35:40
there's more to it for me. you know,
01:35:42
being out in nature, the isolation, um
01:35:45
the trail running side of things is is
01:35:47
really important for me in terms of my
01:35:48
mental health and just as a person, you
01:35:50
know, it means a lot to me to um yeah,
01:35:53
to to be in the nature. And I think
01:35:56
broadly speaking, I guess the thing is
01:35:57
when it comes to to to learning and
01:36:00
developing resilience, when it comes to
01:36:01
being good at getting through tough
01:36:02
times, you have to go through adversity
01:36:05
and hardship. Like I said, you don't
01:36:06
learn to be resilient without going
01:36:08
through adversity. And for me, I
01:36:11
manufacture or create some of that
01:36:13
adversity in my life by, you know,
01:36:14
signing up to go run a 60k mountain race
01:36:17
because I know it'll be hard, but I know
01:36:19
that when I get through it, I will be
01:36:21
stronger as a result of that. And I'll
01:36:22
get to apply all of these lessons and
01:36:24
learnings around resilience along the
01:36:25
way and and it will hopefully make me a
01:36:26
better person on the other side of it.
01:36:28
>> Yeah, 100%. And yeah, psychologically it
01:36:31
just gives you this data that when
01:36:32
things get tough in life, the unforced
01:36:34
adversity, you know that you you can
01:36:36
handle it because you've got this
01:36:37
>> you've got, you know, you got this
01:36:39
previous data that says you can.
01:36:40
>> Yeah. And I mean that's how we build
01:36:42
resilience in life. That's that's what
01:36:43
we know about resilience is that it's
01:36:45
it's created around something called
01:36:46
self-efficacy, which is basically your
01:36:48
ability to back yourself, your
01:36:49
self-belief, your sense that you can get
01:36:51
through something and and over the
01:36:53
course of a lifetime. That's how we
01:36:54
become resilient as adults. We start off
01:36:55
as young people, you know, um, getting
01:36:58
through a school swimming sports day
01:36:59
where you have to swim widths instead of
01:37:01
lengths of the pool or getting through
01:37:02
being picked on in PE class cuz you suck
01:37:04
like I did. And it gives you the sense
01:37:06
of I got through this, so I can get
01:37:08
through that. And that builds up over
01:37:10
the course of a lifetime until the other
01:37:11
end. You're saying, like I said, I can
01:37:13
get through this divorce because I've
01:37:14
got through this redundancy or I can get
01:37:16
through this redundancy because I've got
01:37:18
through the loss of a loved one. And
01:37:19
that is that you know that is how we
01:37:20
create resilience over the course of a
01:37:22
lifetime is by taking on increasingly
01:37:24
bigger and bigger challenges. That's
01:37:25
something which you can choose to do.
01:37:27
You can you can find that within you in
01:37:28
a in a in a voluntary context by you
01:37:31
know endurance sport in my case. For
01:37:33
other people it's learning a language or
01:37:34
learning an instrument or going through
01:37:36
a breakup or moving overseas. Um there's
01:37:38
lots of ways that people find this
01:37:39
within themselves.
01:37:42
>> I I love that. I've got a couple more
01:37:43
about resilience then. Um we'll let you
01:37:45
go. Jesus [ __ ] We've been going like an
01:37:48
hour and 40. [laughter]
01:37:50
>> I tell you what, I'm a bit of a listener
01:37:51
to your podcast as well, like I said, so
01:37:53
I know for a fact and nearly an hour 40
01:37:55
is that that's on the long end of
01:37:56
things. I'm quite I'm quite happy with
01:37:57
that.
01:37:57
>> Oh, no. It's good though. It's it's been
01:37:58
an intriguing chat and I can't thank you
01:38:00
enough for being so
01:38:00
>> No, it's it's a real privilege. Oh,
01:38:02
there you go. I've done it again. It's a
01:38:03
it's a real privilege to have the
01:38:04
opportunity to be here. Yeah, you you
01:38:06
pick yourself up when you say these
01:38:07
things, but I um I only started like
01:38:10
getting into practicing like gr
01:38:11
gratitude and journaling a few years ago
01:38:13
and it's it's actually like a I find it
01:38:15
a great way to live your life like to be
01:38:16
appreciative of of these things.
01:38:18
>> Absolutely.
01:38:19
>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if it's
01:38:22
a ne Yeah, I don't think it's a negative
01:38:23
at all.
01:38:23
>> Look, and and it's something which I
01:38:24
talk about a lot in the book. I think at
01:38:26
the end of the day, kind of in in life,
01:38:28
we've sort of got the option to capture
01:38:31
all of the small good stuff, all of the
01:38:33
little wins, all of the the the tiny
01:38:35
bits of good throughout the day, uh, or
01:38:37
the option to kind of ignore them. Um,
01:38:40
but I think that if you don't capture
01:38:41
those, if you don't deliberately seek
01:38:43
them out and try and look for them and
01:38:44
find them, then I think that it has a,
01:38:46
you know, an overall negative impact on
01:38:48
you over the course of your your
01:38:50
lifetime. There's so much good to be
01:38:51
found in each and every day. And like I
01:38:53
said, I'm I'm still very I'm very keen
01:38:54
to try and temper this, like I say, with
01:38:56
an understanding of the fact that not
01:38:57
everything has to be good. Not
01:38:58
everything always has to be positive.
01:39:00
You can you can feel bad and feel down
01:39:01
and feel upset sometimes. It doesn't
01:39:03
have to be good through and through.
01:39:04
>> But I think that if you can find and
01:39:06
seek out and and and look for the good
01:39:08
within each day, overall you you know,
01:39:11
you end up with a better experience of
01:39:12
of life as a result of it.
01:39:14
>> Yeah. If you if you lose the ability to
01:39:17
appreciate the good little things in
01:39:18
life like um a crazy red sunrise or um
01:39:22
you the first sip of a really cold glass
01:39:24
of water first thing in the morning um
01:39:26
yeah life's life life's just going to be
01:39:27
way more difficult.
01:39:28
>> Yeah I think there's you know there's no
01:39:29
point in not capturing those things and
01:39:31
I think that it it puts you in the right
01:39:32
mind mind frame to to get through tough
01:39:34
times as well. That's you know the
01:39:36
second is that idea of salvaging that
01:39:38
>> uh the gratitude is a good thing to
01:39:39
practice not just during tough times but
01:39:41
just always
01:39:42
>> it's a good habit to be in. Uh what are
01:39:44
some practical strategies you found most
01:39:46
effective in bouncing back from
01:39:47
setbacks?
01:39:48
>> Yeah, I mean like I said the four S's is
01:39:52
really at the core of everything which
01:39:54
kind of really everything which we know
01:39:56
about making people good at getting
01:39:57
through tough times. I mean it's a
01:39:58
little bit tongue and cheek to say that
01:39:59
no one could really assume to create
01:40:01
something quite so comprehensive. But
01:40:03
that book and the 4s model is a
01:40:05
relatively good summary of like 40 years
01:40:07
worth of research into the psychology of
01:40:09
resilience and what makes people good at
01:40:10
bouncing back and getting through. I
01:40:12
think you know for me individually the
01:40:14
things which I find most powerful are
01:40:17
probably um you know people and
01:40:19
connections and relationships. I'm I'm a
01:40:21
big kind of I guess people person um and
01:40:24
and find a lot of uh benefit and
01:40:26
strength in leaning on people and being
01:40:28
being around people. Um but equally all
01:40:31
of those other three S's are kind of
01:40:32
relevant and applicable. I think that
01:40:34
these are things which we know for a
01:40:35
fact make people good at getting through
01:40:36
tough times. And I I would assume that
01:40:38
for your listeners as we went through
01:40:40
those four S's, hopefully they kind of
01:40:41
all rang a bell. I'd probably be a bit
01:40:43
worried actually if anyone found them
01:40:44
particularly revolutionary because if
01:40:47
they if they do ring a bell, if it's
01:40:48
something which you say, "Hey, that's
01:40:49
how I got through X, Y, or Z. That's
01:40:51
something which I do during tough
01:40:52
times." Probably means you're a
01:40:53
relatively resilient, welladjusted
01:40:55
adult. It probably means that you're
01:40:56
just good at getting through tough
01:40:58
times.
01:41:00
>> I I honestly think it's a it's something
01:41:02
that a lot of people just don't even
01:41:03
give any thought to.
01:41:04
>> And and in a lot of ways, you don't have
01:41:06
to. Like I say, you know, those 4S's,
01:41:07
like I for you, for anyone, they're
01:41:09
probably relatively familiar. They
01:41:11
probably do ring a bell. They probably
01:41:12
are things which you've utilized at
01:41:13
different times. I think what is really
01:41:15
worth keeping in mind is is two things.
01:41:17
One, if any of those ring a bell, if any
01:41:20
of those are things which you do, it's
01:41:21
because you have learned and earned
01:41:23
those through blood, sweat, and tears.
01:41:24
Like, you weren't born with those. They
01:41:26
weren't innate within you when you came
01:41:27
out of the womb. Those things, those
01:41:29
skills, if you do them, if you've got
01:41:31
them, it's because you had to earn them
01:41:32
when you went through suffering, right?
01:41:35
And [snorts] particularly for our young
01:41:36
people, we actually have the capacity to
01:41:38
equip them with these skills before they
01:41:40
have to go and figure it out for
01:41:41
themselves. We can send them out into
01:41:42
the world, I guess, a bit armed to go
01:41:44
out and to deal with things better so
01:41:46
that they just have a head start. They
01:41:48
can they can meet adversity as as as a
01:41:50
as I say a training ground with some
01:41:52
skills and tools on their side instead
01:41:54
of having to sort of bumble through and
01:41:56
figure it out. And I think for for for
01:41:57
many of us, that's why adolescence and
01:41:59
growing up is so hard is because you
01:42:00
start facing real world adult problems
01:42:03
without the real world adult skills to
01:42:04
deal with them because you haven't
01:42:05
learned them yet. That's really what
01:42:06
that time of life is is just figuring
01:42:08
these things out. So, you know, my work
01:42:10
with schools, I've been really
01:42:11
passionate about equipping young people
01:42:12
with those. But secondly for for adults
01:42:15
um for the rest of us as we move past
01:42:18
that phase of you know adolescence and
01:42:19
into life I think it's really important
01:42:21
to put words to those things which we
01:42:24
don't think about um sort of frame up
01:42:26
and understand why these skills that
01:42:28
many of us will have why they actually
01:42:30
work what the research is what we can do
01:42:32
to lean into them further and how we can
01:42:34
can sort of integrate them into our
01:42:35
lives more and I think you know for me
01:42:37
with with with the comeback code with
01:42:39
this book I think the thing which has
01:42:40
been most I guess exciting about it is
01:42:43
that it was it was written really with a
01:42:45
teen audience in mind or or at least for
01:42:48
young people and a lot of the feedback
01:42:50
and and reviews that I've received over
01:42:52
the past couple of weeks that it's been
01:42:53
out has been people of all different
01:42:56
ages and stages of life saying how
01:42:58
beneficial and helpful it was to them. I
01:43:00
think my favorite review so far was from
01:43:01
someone who said I'm sort of three times
01:43:03
the age of the author. I'm 27. You can
01:43:05
do some cook math on that. Wow.
01:43:07
>> And he said for me this has taught me so
01:43:10
much and given me so much. And I
01:43:11
thought, you know, wow, that's that's
01:43:12
that's, you know, very very humbling to
01:43:14
hear. So, yeah, I think it's important
01:43:16
to put words to these things and to
01:43:17
remember that for our young people,
01:43:18
they're not born with them innately.
01:43:20
None of us were, none of us are, but we
01:43:22
still hopefully can learn them and
01:43:23
better understand them.
01:43:25
>> And how cool is that that someone in
01:43:26
their 80s is reading your book and still
01:43:28
still trying to like get better or
01:43:30
improve?
01:43:31
>> That's cool. That's so exciting. It is.
01:43:33
>> Um, what advice would you give someone
01:43:35
who feels like they can't see a way
01:43:36
forward? I think the main thing which
01:43:39
you know and and and it's a we touch on
01:43:42
this before because it's a situation
01:43:43
which I think most of us have found
01:43:44
ourselves in right when when something
01:43:46
bad happens when something goes wrong
01:43:48
when there's something catastrophic in
01:43:49
your life often that first sense of
01:43:52
emotion or feeling around it is a sense
01:43:54
of I've got no idea how I'm going to get
01:43:56
through this next
01:43:57
>> you know day week hour
01:44:00
>> and and as I said before hopefully the
01:44:02
answer for you for me for for anyone
01:44:04
listening has been I'll just get through
01:44:06
to the afternoon or I'll just get
01:44:08
through to a catch up with a mate or
01:44:09
I'll just get through this week of work
01:44:11
or I'll just get through this project
01:44:12
and and to try and take it piece by
01:44:14
piece. I think when you feel like there
01:44:16
is there's no way through when you feel
01:44:17
that sense of overwhelm, it's incredibly
01:44:19
important to try and strip things back
01:44:21
down to a scale at which you don't feel
01:44:23
overwhelmed and to take things on your
01:44:24
own terms, whatever size pieces those
01:44:27
may may be.
01:44:29
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's something I
01:44:32
get from like doing endurance runs like
01:44:34
the Kepler we're talking about. Like
01:44:35
it's just Yeah. Putting one foot in
01:44:37
front of the other like taking it Yeah.
01:44:39
just go to the next little orange war
01:44:42
pole thing, whatever it is.
01:44:44
>> Absolutely.
01:44:44
>> Or go to the next drink stop and it's
01:44:46
amazing eventually you do that and
01:44:48
eventually you get to the finish.
01:44:49
>> And as you would have experienced, as
01:44:50
I've definitely experienced, your your
01:44:52
sense of of scale in terms of what
01:44:54
you're trying to get through shifts
01:44:56
depending on how you feel. Like there
01:44:57
sometimes there was sometimes in Kipl
01:44:59
when we ran that last year together that
01:45:00
for me I was like oh boy I just need to
01:45:03
get through to that next tree or I need
01:45:05
to get through to the next warer like
01:45:06
you say or whatever it may be but and
01:45:08
other times you go well I just need to
01:45:10
get through to the next aid station or I
01:45:12
need to get through to the halfway mark.
01:45:14
Um some of these things are are big some
01:45:16
of these things are small you just have
01:45:17
to be adaptable and reactive depending
01:45:18
on how you're feeling and that's
01:45:20
applicable to kind of everything in
01:45:21
life. God knows it's not just applicable
01:45:23
to to endurance sport and ultra running.
01:45:25
Yeah, by the way, very charitable of you
01:45:27
to say we ran it together. [laughter]
01:45:29
There was a moment near the start line
01:45:31
where we got caught um photographed um
01:45:33
side by side.
01:45:34
>> I don't think I didn't realize I didn't
01:45:36
realize that you were there either. I'd
01:45:37
seen you before. I had no idea we were
01:45:39
next to each other and I'm sure that you
01:45:41
didn't know that I was next to you
01:45:42
either, but when I saw the race photos
01:45:44
come through afterwards, I picked it
01:45:45
straight away and thought it was Yeah.
01:45:46
thought it was pretty entertaining.
01:45:47
>> That's cool. But just for clarification,
01:45:49
you you you were finished. You may have
01:45:51
even been showered and changed and I was
01:45:54
still [laughter] deep in the forest.
01:45:55
>> Well, that I think you've exhibited
01:45:57
considerably more resilience than I had
01:45:58
to. Right. If I was at home in the
01:46:00
shower and you were still running
01:46:01
through the freaking forest, then I
01:46:03
think you probably you probably did a
01:46:04
better job of of enduring it and being
01:46:06
resilient than I did over the course of
01:46:07
that day.
01:46:08
>> Good point. I had way more time on my
01:46:09
face.
01:46:09
>> That's 100%. It's a bigger day for you.
01:46:11
>> Um, hey, this has been great. Is there
01:46:13
any any final words? Any any parting
01:46:15
words?
01:46:15
>> No, I don't think so. It's just been
01:46:17
it's been such a cool opportunity to
01:46:18
chat and you know I I can I get the
01:46:21
sense and understand not only from this
01:46:22
conversation but from from listening to
01:46:24
your podcast and and from having met and
01:46:25
known you before as well that you're
01:46:27
someone that that thinks about you know
01:46:28
these these challenges in life and how
01:46:30
we can best sort of overcome them and
01:46:32
and and I know that you've exhibited
01:46:34
great resilience at different periods
01:46:35
through your own journey as well. And I
01:46:37
think that that's probably why we've
01:46:38
spent nearly sort of two hours talking
01:46:40
about it is because um for you, for me,
01:46:42
hopefully for the listeners as well, um
01:46:44
we've seen and understand what a
01:46:46
powerful and profound impact that
01:46:48
resilience has in the course of our
01:46:49
lifetime. We both understand that as as
01:46:51
hopefully everyone listening does that
01:46:53
that there is this inevitable adversity
01:46:54
we all go through and we all face. Um
01:46:56
but it's been a really cool opportunity
01:46:58
to sort of yan through and chat and
01:47:00
unpick a little bit with you with you
01:47:01
here now. So, thank you for the
01:47:02
opportunity.
01:47:03
>> It's been great, mate. Jake Ba, thank
01:47:04
you so much. Cheers, Dom.
