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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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Runners only with dom Harvey and Sir
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John James Patrick Kerwin
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how does that sound you said John James
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Patrick since my mum told me off right
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isn't that right she's been passed for
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the last four years so there you go
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right oh sorry to hear that I wasn't
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aware of that yeah and uh This was 92.
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oh that was a good announcement and what
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about your dad is he still here he
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passed 10 years ago right right yeah he
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had his first triple bypass when he was
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sort of
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59 so he got through to 84 which is
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pretty good Innings considering the he
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had three triple bypasses and stuff
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might you step he used to have dripping
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on bread white bread for breakfast you
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know back in the day I think that's
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right we used to use that growing up as
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well what even was it just fat yeah no
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it's just pure fat I used to make it on
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a Wednesday morning when I was a butcher
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and basically you just all the cuttings
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of fat you just boil and then all the
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excess meat comes to the top scrape that
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off and then you pour it I used to pour
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it into those little dripping things
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amazing amazing I'd like to like touch
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upon that it's uh geez it feels like
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we're going straight into it but um you
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touch upon your relationship with your
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dad because I've heard some interviews
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that you've done and he's like an
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instrumental part of your life in a
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massive way yeah and I think um
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one of the one of the things that I talk
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about often
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is how the world is pushing us to
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think about a capitalistic form of
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success right
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um and both my mum and dad were amazing
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parents and Incredibly wise but if you
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put them on the world stage today you
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probably wouldn't give them any credit
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for being wise you know mum was was uh
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was a stay-at-home mum dad was a butcher
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but they were amazing parents and
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Incredibly wise and I remember when Dad
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was very very unwell you know I said to
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him I had very fortunate I had three
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days with him
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and I said Dad what's success and he
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said how many bastards want to carry out
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when you die you know yeah and Dad and
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you know when Dad passed you know like
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30 people said oh can I help with Dad
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you know you need any help can we carry
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him out and all that sort of stuff and I
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think that when I talk about the
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capitalistic world I'm a capitalist
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myself you know but I think the world is
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pushing us to think about success and
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material gain rather than
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possibly being a great dad or you know
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being a great friend yeah that's
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probably your dad's thing like how many
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people are willing to carry you out it's
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probably a good way of geez we're going
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straight deep into it it's probably a
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good way of looking at it because I mean
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there's um there's the rear few people
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like you uh who have done enough stuff
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in your life that you're going to be
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remembered by a broader audience people
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that don't even like know you personally
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but I suppose that's the thing for most
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people it's the impact you have on
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you know how sad other people that
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actually know you are going to be once
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you're gone
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I think um you know another thing data
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was sit the same in the same breath was
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you know it's nose having the Flash's
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car in the car park of the cemetery
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um you know you can't take anything with
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you okay yeah no absolutely and
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um you know I was brought up a Catholic
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and we believe in God and
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um you know that was a that was another
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interesting
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um search that I had to go on when I was
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you know coming out of my Illness but
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but I think I had a life-changing event
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which made me look at life way
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differently and that was you know a
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clinical depression and wanting to jump
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out of a window one night and I think if
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you talk to anyone who's had a
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a scare with health or whatever you know
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you do start to look at these things a
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little bit differently and you do start
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reassessing and I was very fortunate
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that I did that at 23. you know so
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um I keep get I keep getting dragged
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back into the the rat race I keep having
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to
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you know and I think you've been through
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it yourself you know you've done a bit
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of a journey of Discovery over the last
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what 18 months is it I I yeah um
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actually probably last last few years
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like I've um I don't know geez you know
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I suppose there was like a bunch of
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stuff that I just just didn't deal with
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um yeah I went through a relationship
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breakup went through years of like
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fertility treatment and IVF and there's
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a bunch of stuff and the analogy I like
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to use is it's like getting old gym
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clothes and shoving it in a bag and just
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leaving it there and zipping it up and
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the the smell is only going to get worse
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and worse and you need to address that
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and sooner rather than later and then I
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think
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um I never I never really felt suicidal
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or anything but there was um a therapist
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said to me you know she have you ever
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felt you know like taking your own life
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and I said not really but I said there
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are nights where I'll drink three
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bottles of wine maybe more and then just
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be quite content if I don't wake up in
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the morning she just sort of shrugged
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her shoulders and said that's not really
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a big deal a lot of people think that
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which made me feel really good but I
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think the big thing for me was um
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um a mate of mine took his he was
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bipolar and no one no one knew no one
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otherly his wife afternoon and some very
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close people but I consider myself a
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pretty good friend and I had no idea and
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he took his life in a very dramatic way
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like by getting in front of a train and
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um I thought at that point should have
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if Daryl was capable of having that weak
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moment where he makes a such a permanent
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decision to such a temporary problem
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then you know we could all have that
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moment and that was alarming for me yeah
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I mean I never planned my own suicide
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for that I was felt very very grateful
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but I'd had suicidal ruminations which
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was so damn scary that you know I used
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to end up shaking in bed yeah you
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mentioned before something about um
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wanting to jump out of a window yeah
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that was that was on the um on an all
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black tour actually and I've been hiding
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my mental health and my anxiety and my
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anxiety fell into a depression because
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uh two different illnesses and I had no
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understanding of either of them
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um you know you're probably old enough
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to remember One Flew Over the Cuckoo's
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Nest right yeah the Jack Nicholson movie
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yeah but that was my reference right
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that was my reference to mental health
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so I thought that if I don't if I you
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know if I I talk to someone I'm going to
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get locked up I'm going to get locked up
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with Jack Nicholson and chief the big
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American Indian guy and nurse ratchet
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yeah and I can laugh about it I can
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laugh about it now which is which is a
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healthy place to be but the reality was
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I just did not understand what was going
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on in my head and the three things I
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talk about with mental health
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that is part of the illness and I say to
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people it's an illness not a weakness
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right
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and
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what happened with me was I was ignoring
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the signs I didn't know what it was and
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this illness takes away your self-esteem
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your self-confidence and your enjoyment
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in life and life's pretty shitty without
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those three things right and that's
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where I was living and I had these
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suicidal ruminations which used to scare
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me and one night I was in a hotel room
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in in Buenos Aires the Hilton on the
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10th floor the window was open and I
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thought of sick of fighting this [ __ ] I
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was going to run and jump out guy lying
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next to me said JK you've got a good
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heart saved my life his name was Michael
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Jones
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Sir Michael Jones nice man the Iceman
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um and and have you you've obviously
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spoken to him in the years since did he
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have you asked him why or yeah why is it
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those words at that moment I've got
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goosebumps man just yeah yeah I mean the
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interesting thing about ice is a
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beautiful man I saw him yesterday
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actually
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um you know he said well God must have
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told me Jack I thought should if God
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knows who I am I'm all good
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um you know and and he he is you know I
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think when you when you talk about this
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world and you would have met people who
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have an amazing EQ and other people have
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an amazing IQ and some have great IQ and
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no EQ
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um but he had amazing EQ so I'm pretty
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sure he would have sensed it and and he
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would have felt it and and um
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and the timing of it was impeccable so
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so okay so so you're lying you're lying
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there on on your bed next to next to
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your teammate and you're having these
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thoughts about doing something as final
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as that and then he says those words
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that change your mind what happens then
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do you like do you do you break down and
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like can spell your guts no totally hide
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it
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um just got me through that moment
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carried on like he would have said it
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for no reason I wouldn't have reacted to
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it but I didn't jump out the window but
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he didn't know any of that was going on
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I played a test match for New Zealand
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the next day scored two tries of
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relevance like watching myself
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from the stand like an out of body
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experience which sounds a bit freaky but
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wasn't quite that but it was just like
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running
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just on nothing
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um but I think it was so frightening
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that it made me reach out to get help so
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I realized wow that was close I need to
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do something about that so that was sort
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of my pivotal moment and then when I got
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home you know I did reach out and I went
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and saw my doctor
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um the stupid thing was the doctor had
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been on tour with us for five weeks but
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I wouldn't talk to him about it yeah
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I've read this in your book how more
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Blackstone Christ so this is uh Dr John
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maker yeah yeah
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um so and that's another alarming thing
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it's like your your mask was so good
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none of your none of your teammates
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friends had any [ __ ] clue well though
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all our mass is good right yours was
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good yeah yeah you know I mean it's just
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what we do and I think part of our part
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of our cultural problem that we need to
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address like I talk about living in
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Italy right so living in New Zealand go
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to work in the morning morning how are
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yeah sweet bro yeah I've been fishing
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you know Life's good had a great weekend
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you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah you
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go to Italy and so how about I feel like
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[ __ ] you know
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had a fight with Mumsy like it's you
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know
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and it's more on a more authentic chat
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but but you get you feel awkward as a
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kiwi to start with right yeah because we
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are quite superficial and that's not a
00:10:02
that's not a criticism that's just an
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observation of mine whereas in Italy
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people will say to you that they've got
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words for for stuff we don't talk about
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like in their common you know Commerce
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like
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Hi how are you I'm really nervous and
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anxious you know and people say that to
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you Australia and invariably you just go
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oh okay what's going on you know can I
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buy a cup of coffee or you know but then
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the next day as a kiwi oh [ __ ] should I
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say hello to them and you say hello to
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them and they say yeah I'm all good so
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so the whole
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um keeping
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key emotions down and I think there's
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two that especially as males I think
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females are way better and I don't know
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whether this is and it also reflects on
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our suicide rate
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um where we I wasn't brought up to deal
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with anger or crying two fundamental
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emotions to be whole
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right what do you mean I I sort of
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understand the crying thing like because
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um yeah I mean the title of your book is
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All Blacks don't cry but I think uh New
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Zealand men just don't cry it's an
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emotion that you um you try and suppress
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I guess but what what do you mean the
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anger thing um well I don't know if
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you've been to a pub lately or get to a
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pub around closing time you can actually
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feel oh the oh yeah gotcha you can feel
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because anger is a perfect emotion you
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should never hold it down but how you
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express it should be
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in a non-violent positive way for anger
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yeah right so once again talking about
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the Italians because I understand that
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culture and you've just been around the
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world on your trips
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um you know you see people arguing in
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Spain or in Italy and and they they get
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all this emotion out and then it's all
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over you know and so I think those
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things whereas we suppress it and it
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comes out at the wrong time and anger I
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think you know
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um you were talking about your emotions
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you know when you decided to change your
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life a couple of years ago and and I
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talk about you know when you're not
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feeling great you're
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you know your actions aren't aligned
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with your values right and so you always
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feel a bit
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off and so I think that what I learned
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during my depressive years was that I'm
00:12:20
not my emotions on my values and so I'm
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okay if I'm angry now I just go and do
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something positive with it you know go
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for a walk or
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Danielle or listen to music Whatever
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Gets that to pass yeah so um so one one
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thing I wanted to talk to you about is
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um and uh Dr John May who addresses this
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in your book he talks about how you uh
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when you're at your worst you were
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scared of not necessarily like doing
00:12:45
something bad to yourself like jumping
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out the window but about like doing
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something bad to to someone else what
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did he mean exactly
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I'd watch the news and then you know
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like if you watch the news last night
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there's been a shooter in the in the
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states or stabbing in early South
00:13:01
Auckland
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um I'd be scared that that was me I was
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scared that this is what this illness
00:13:06
was it was going to drive me to do
00:13:08
something like that it's so irrational
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though oh exactly I mean I felt like I
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was going insane
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um and but it was a real fear and it was
00:13:16
so scary like I walked past a knife in
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the in my kitchen thinking [ __ ] I'm
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going to stab someone and stab myself
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right but that was the illness not me I
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just didn't know that right
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um and that sort of stuff would drive me
00:13:29
to bed having an anxiety attack or too
00:13:31
scared to go out or too scared to drive
00:13:33
or you know and so if I wasn't
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ruminating about
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um suicide I was ruminated about being
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you know one of society's
00:13:45
um headlines was it just all concerning
00:13:48
oh every a minute felt like an hour an
00:13:51
hour felt like a day and a day felt like
00:13:53
a week how long how long are we talking
00:13:55
uh I think probably off and on so like I
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would like for example during the 87
00:14:01
World Cup I was having anxiety attacks
00:14:04
but they'd come and go and I'd go back
00:14:05
to normal so I had I was having a good
00:14:07
time as well right so they'd come on for
00:14:10
what like an hour a couple of hours yeah
00:14:12
depending starting just briefly you know
00:14:14
just short ones and then sometimes an
00:14:17
hour sometimes half a day and then
00:14:19
there's a hangover from it that I call
00:14:21
fear and then which is not uncommon the
00:14:25
anxiety then fell into a depression so
00:14:27
it just didn't go away and that was
00:14:28
probably uh two years
00:14:31
and then it probably took me
00:14:34
um from 1989 to 1996 to really come out
00:14:38
of it and get back to what I would say
00:14:40
you know one of the things I was scared
00:14:43
of was me getting myself back
00:14:45
but I actually think I got a better
00:14:46
version but I was getting getting back
00:14:49
to normal how do you mean one thing what
00:14:52
do you mean one of the things you were
00:14:53
scared of was getting yourself back well
00:14:54
you're in this altered state yeah you
00:14:57
know you're in this Freak Out World
00:15:00
um and it's so dominated by your illness
00:15:02
and stuff that what you're what you're
00:15:04
trying to do is just get through every
00:15:06
day so and often when I'd have these
00:15:09
breaks from it so I'd feel okay I wanted
00:15:11
myself back I wanted to go back to what
00:15:14
I perceived was normal right
00:15:16
and the best way I could explain normal
00:15:19
is just unconscious mind you're just
00:15:21
living you're not thinking too much
00:15:22
you're just you know doing your [ __ ] and
00:15:24
having a good time and
00:15:25
um you know not not grabbing hold of
00:15:27
emotions too hard and just getting on
00:15:29
with it that's what I wanted back
00:15:32
um but that's a long time to be
00:15:35
basically riding through hell yeah
00:15:37
they're basically living with the
00:15:39
mentality you know these um there's
00:15:41
there's mantras and mentalities like put
00:15:43
one foot in front of the one put one
00:15:45
foot in front of the other no storm
00:15:46
lasts forever the sun always comes up
00:15:49
eventually but six or seven years [ __ ] I
00:15:52
mean this wasn't all it was yeah it
00:15:53
wasn't all bad I'm
00:15:56
I'm pretty scary I mean I remember when
00:15:58
I was relatively well and this is one
00:16:00
thing
00:16:01
it's really difficult when you start
00:16:02
coming out of it you're waiting for it
00:16:04
to come back so you're always living
00:16:05
with this on the knife edge yeah on this
00:16:08
edge of waiting and that's what I talk
00:16:10
about
00:16:11
um anxiety you know when you have an
00:16:12
anxiety attack you put it into the back
00:16:14
of your mind into the cupboard of your
00:16:16
mind but it leaves a little Scar and
00:16:19
that scar is called fear So eventually
00:16:21
ended up you end up living in more and
00:16:23
more fear and that's what happened to me
00:16:24
then I fell into depression which is
00:16:26
just like a full-time anxiety attack and
00:16:28
that sort of lasted
00:16:30
um and that when I say lasted you're not
00:16:33
getting any peace even when you're
00:16:34
relatively well you're thinking about it
00:16:36
coming back so you're just in this
00:16:37
constant cycle
00:16:39
and then I think once I reached out to
00:16:42
Doc sort of 89 so
00:16:46
um started getting anxiety attacks in 87
00:16:48
88 had a really good year but with
00:16:50
anxiety attacks so good year on the
00:16:52
footy field 89 sort of fell into it
00:16:56
um and uh you know I remember I remember
00:16:59
going to Italy and I was just crippled
00:17:02
for for a couple of weeks and then it
00:17:04
went away right and then when I flew
00:17:06
home in 89 I came back like I had a I
00:17:10
had a anxiety attack I walked I remember
00:17:13
um we'd won the championship in the
00:17:15
league
00:17:16
I went to the airport and my my
00:17:18
girlfriend then who who's now my wife
00:17:21
you know we'd fall in love had a I'd had
00:17:23
a really good five months to obtain team
00:17:25
at one I'd forgotten all about the first
00:17:27
two weeks where I was really unwell
00:17:30
um and I walked through customs and I
00:17:33
had this massive anxiety attack this is
00:17:34
in Italy you know with guys holding guns
00:17:36
and [ __ ] and I said I Associated my
00:17:39
anxiety attack and my depression to New
00:17:41
Zealand so I turned around and went back
00:17:43
and I was never gonna come back to New
00:17:45
Zealand so I turned went back through
00:17:46
customs
00:17:48
um but everyone had gone as you do you
00:17:49
know white people goodbye so I was
00:17:51
knowing this I went back through customs
00:17:52
right and came home
00:17:54
um and it never really left me then
00:17:56
probably until till 91 I was still on
00:17:59
antidepressants in the 91 World Cup
00:18:01
and then in 92 I started to really get a
00:18:05
handle on it and started to get some
00:18:06
confidence back and and started to ex
00:18:10
really really accept it and then really
00:18:11
work on it yeah are you still on any
00:18:14
sort of medication now or no no no no no
00:18:15
no I um well one of the mistakes I made
00:18:18
was that I came off my medication too
00:18:20
quick
00:18:22
um and the way the way I put it is you
00:18:25
know I've got friends of mine that are
00:18:26
on medication for all their life and you
00:18:29
know if I
00:18:30
if I say to people in a room you know
00:18:33
put up put up your hand if you're taking
00:18:35
an anti-inflammatory or a blood pressure
00:18:36
pill or whatever you know it just it
00:18:38
just is what it is but I was pretty
00:18:40
determined that I wanted to get a system
00:18:42
in place where I didn't have to
00:18:45
um and so it took me until about 1996
00:18:48
with a couple of false starts because I
00:18:51
think the antidepressants gave me
00:18:52
balance to work on my illness yeah and
00:18:54
the first time I thought the pills were
00:18:56
going to fix me and I didn't work hard
00:18:58
enough on my mental health plan and then
00:19:01
the second time you know I I came off
00:19:03
them a bit slower I had everything in in
00:19:05
place to look after myself
00:19:08
yes my um my exam JJ she's on them and
00:19:12
uh she said to a doctor at one point
00:19:14
like how long how long will I be on
00:19:15
these for him the doctor was like well
00:19:16
you've got a chemical imbalance in your
00:19:18
brain and these sort that out so there's
00:19:20
nothing wrong with being on them on them
00:19:22
forever
00:19:23
my brother and Perth he had a similar
00:19:25
thing he was he was on them and um he
00:19:27
felt amazing so he went off them and
00:19:29
realized the drugs were doing all the
00:19:31
work for him yeah yeah and I think I
00:19:33
think what I say to what I say to people
00:19:36
is
00:19:37
um
00:19:38
you know for me I was talking about it
00:19:40
the other day so in the 80s man the
00:19:42
beginning of the 1980s we all smoked a
00:19:44
have a [ __ ] and bloody a few beers and no
00:19:47
one really gave a [ __ ] by the end of the
00:19:48
80s people sort of saying you know the
00:19:50
Smoking Man
00:19:51
you need to look at the health
00:19:52
consequences and then the government
00:19:54
gets involved and then now if you smoke
00:19:56
I don't judge you you know the risks
00:19:58
it's your call I think mental health now
00:20:01
is is that where smoking was in the 80s
00:20:03
it's doing a whole lot of damage and we
00:20:05
all need to know how to look up to our
00:20:08
mental health you know and that's why I
00:20:09
created Groove and that's why I've got
00:20:10
Mighty the the Charities but you know
00:20:13
when you talk about the pills what I I
00:20:15
had an amazing woman called Dr Louise
00:20:17
Armstrong who said okay JK what are you
00:20:20
going to do every single day for your
00:20:22
mental health right and so I have a
00:20:25
daily mental health plan that I put
00:20:26
first and people say why do you put it
00:20:28
first I say well I'm a better husband
00:20:29
better father better work mate better
00:20:32
better mate
00:20:33
um so how do you do that and I think
00:20:36
you've got to build into these but build
00:20:38
it into your day and put it first so
00:20:40
obviously this is this is your plan so
00:20:42
this works for you but um yeah I mean
00:20:46
um what is it is it just like structure
00:20:48
structure and routine
00:20:58
um for example I went and saw my mum
00:20:59
right my mum said um
00:21:02
I said my mom did you know I'm dead
00:21:04
inside and she said well the good thing
00:21:06
about your dead son is you're still here
00:21:08
and she said and you can start again I
00:21:11
went right [ __ ] I can start again
00:21:14
because I always thought that I had to
00:21:15
bring my past with me and she said no
00:21:18
you can there's no rules in this world
00:21:20
boy you can start again and she said you
00:21:23
need to start by smelling the Roses
00:21:25
and I thought about that it's a bit of
00:21:28
an old saying and I thought about that
00:21:29
on the way home right
00:21:31
um
00:21:32
and I had nothing to look forward to so
00:21:34
depression and anxiety you've got
00:21:36
nothing to look forward to you are just
00:21:38
dead and so the next morning I had a
00:21:40
shower
00:21:42
um but for the first time
00:21:44
in my life I felt the water
00:21:46
and I actually just stood there for a
00:21:49
minute and a half got it really hot and
00:21:51
just really really enjoyed it
00:21:53
and I still don't do that to the stay
00:21:55
sort of mindfulness in a way that is
00:21:57
mindfulness right yeah but people say
00:21:58
what is mindfulness mindfulness is just
00:22:00
being in the prison and enjoying the
00:22:02
moment right and if you had a shower
00:22:04
this morning you might have been
00:22:05
thinking about [ __ ] what you did
00:22:06
yesterday you got that you got this
00:22:07
bloody podcast to do with JK and you've
00:22:09
got those 10 other things to do and you
00:22:12
know you get on this on this journey
00:22:15
without actually stopping and and so for
00:22:18
the first time in about five years I had
00:22:20
someone to look forward to every day and
00:22:21
that was my shower so then
00:22:23
um habitual change is quite hard so I
00:22:25
started building on that you know and I
00:22:27
absolutely love my coffee so straight
00:22:30
after I've had a shower I now
00:22:32
have a workout first and then I go and
00:22:34
have a shower and then I I have a coffee
00:22:37
but I don't invite my phone my phone's
00:22:39
not invited you know and I have a coffee
00:22:42
um so so there's so that so for example
00:22:46
the six pillars are chill what are you
00:22:49
doing just to really
00:22:51
relax and chill you know what are you
00:22:53
doing physically and you know you're
00:22:55
you're into your running
00:22:57
um but doing is very very important how
00:23:00
do you connect right so for me
00:23:02
connection when someone comes into my
00:23:05
heart either text or mothering them
00:23:06
connection is really really important
00:23:08
one of the things about
00:23:11
um about mental health is you feel
00:23:13
lonely you can be a room with 100 people
00:23:15
and you feel really good early so those
00:23:17
solid connections are really really
00:23:19
important right um
00:23:22
so so when you think about my daily
00:23:24
mental health plan so this morning I've
00:23:26
had a shower I've had a workout
00:23:28
right
00:23:30
um and I've had a cup of coffee Factor
00:23:32
two cup of coffee
00:23:33
but one was sitting in here with my
00:23:35
workmates and just have any on yeah
00:23:37
right
00:23:39
um so also I think
00:23:41
um I talk about
00:23:44
honey bitty right I had a nanny biddy
00:23:47
she had um purple here and she used to
00:23:49
knit
00:23:51
to drive us nuts but knitting is a form
00:23:54
of meditation so I tried meditation and
00:23:57
I can't meditate right I can't meditate
00:24:00
because I've got a ruminating mind right
00:24:01
it was really really busy I probably
00:24:03
could if I spent more time on it but I'm
00:24:04
also very busy so early in the piece
00:24:06
with Dr Louise she said well you know
00:24:08
you've got a you've got an act of mind
00:24:10
so I just call my my mind a monkey mind
00:24:12
you know I call my mind Bob the monkey
00:24:15
right so Bob the monkey hates reading
00:24:19
right when when I read Bob the monkey
00:24:21
goes into his cage has a banana and
00:24:23
falls asleep right
00:24:25
um Bob the monkey hates cooking yeah
00:24:28
right
00:24:30
um so every single day and uh during
00:24:33
covert covert was taking so much away
00:24:35
from me that I wanted to find another
00:24:37
thing to piss Bob the monkey off and
00:24:39
that was playing in the guitar now it
00:24:40
sounds like I'm killing a cat in the
00:24:42
lounge but after I played for half an
00:24:44
hour I feel amazing so I do the one of
00:24:47
those three things and sometimes all of
00:24:48
those three things in my day so I know
00:24:51
and then I breathe as well I do box
00:24:54
breathing six or seven times a day right
00:24:57
so
00:24:59
if I read before I go to sleep you know
00:25:01
what Bob does
00:25:03
goes in those caves and falls asleep if
00:25:04
I don't read before I say you know what
00:25:06
Bob does Yoo-hoo
00:25:08
yeah and he goes on this so if you put
00:25:12
those if you put those pillars into your
00:25:14
day and I just call them my daily mental
00:25:16
health plan right then you're starting
00:25:18
to do mindfulness you know you're
00:25:20
starting to connect you're starting to
00:25:21
move you're starting to do
00:25:23
um and you're starting to sexually build
00:25:25
this this day where you're taking that
00:25:27
time out for you the best way to explain
00:25:29
it is um we're animals at the end of the
00:25:32
day yeah right so there's a there's a a
00:25:35
zebra on the Savannah Desert and out of
00:25:38
the Bush Comes Alive trying to eat its
00:25:40
ass for breakfast they have this massive
00:25:41
chase the zebra gets away what does it
00:25:44
do
00:25:45
goes back to eating grass right what do
00:25:47
we do
00:25:48
we're always worried about the lion in
00:25:51
the bush and what is the line in the
00:25:52
bush the line in the bushes
00:25:54
emails that never stop your inbox is
00:25:56
always full
00:25:58
um there's no work-life balance anymore
00:25:59
you know you can it's just life you know
00:26:02
there's all this thing Wars in in
00:26:04
Ukraine all these things going on in our
00:26:06
in our world yeah so much stimulus so
00:26:09
much stimulus mate in this cell phone
00:26:10
which is a beautiful thing but also it
00:26:13
can take control I say to people don't
00:26:15
invite your cell phone to your coffee
00:26:16
date you know why because it'll get in
00:26:17
the way and you won't taste the coffee
00:26:19
so I think now in this modern world
00:26:22
technology has overtaken us
00:26:24
we've got all these inputs in our brain
00:26:26
and we just need to learn some of these
00:26:28
basic basic
00:26:31
tools for mental health so do you I feel
00:26:34
like they are um they're good pillars
00:26:36
and they're good things and I feel like
00:26:37
um I'll grab something for you very
00:26:39
quickly
00:26:42
there you go stay in here come out
00:26:58
so you can you can download this free
00:27:00
mate on the um
00:27:02
and the groove app but the thing in in
00:27:04
the we're on a podcast so you people
00:27:06
can't see it but what I like what I like
00:27:07
to do is show so this is this is all
00:27:09
based in in medical science if you do
00:27:12
these things every single day then
00:27:15
you'll you will be better but what I
00:27:17
didn't realize back in the day was that
00:27:19
my psychiatrist was building me to start
00:27:21
doing these things right and if you turn
00:27:23
it over that's mine
00:27:26
translated into what I do every single
00:27:28
day right Cafe shower read breathe tell
00:27:30
people I love them guitar yeah yeah you
00:27:33
know and I do that religiously and so it
00:27:36
can be anything you you you love your
00:27:39
running right yeah you're running for
00:27:40
you might be fundamental part of your
00:27:42
move and the other thing I say to people
00:27:44
is we're busy two birds with one stone
00:27:46
right so oh yeah 100 we're always
00:27:48
multitasking yeah exactly but you can do
00:27:50
that for your mental health so for
00:27:52
example I've got a I've got a I've got a
00:27:54
dog a little bit bigger than yours yours
00:27:56
is really small size mine
00:27:58
um but I take it with a walk for a walk
00:28:00
with my wife because that's the only
00:28:02
time we can connect right so I'm doing
00:28:04
my move
00:28:05
right I'm doing something physical but
00:28:08
I'm also connecting with my wife and the
00:28:10
dog's happy you can do those things in
00:28:12
our days because we need to
00:28:15
when um
00:28:17
when when what year did Junior wife meet
00:28:19
and has she been helpful in you being
00:28:21
more open and expressive not totally
00:28:24
yeah really did you suffer um like
00:28:27
mental health stuff before you met her
00:28:28
or would you um no it was sort of uh for
00:28:32
me it was
00:28:34
um a method so I got to Italy I had that
00:28:37
three weeks I was talking about it and
00:28:38
then I met her in this really beautiful
00:28:40
period of my life so I'd forgotten about
00:28:43
the three weeks of anxiety and that I'd
00:28:46
had and then I started playing really
00:28:48
well for me I met my wife you know I'm
00:28:50
living in Northern Italy going on dates
00:28:53
to Venice like just you know really full
00:28:56
time
00:28:58
um then the probably the next two years
00:29:00
for us were really rough I got really
00:29:02
unwell
00:29:03
um I was drinking too much it was she
00:29:04
doesn't agree with drinking
00:29:07
culturally very very different yeah you
00:29:09
know it came down to New Zealand didn't
00:29:11
like it to start with you know I'm
00:29:13
playing footy all sorts of different
00:29:14
stuff going on so we had a pretty we had
00:29:17
a pretty
00:29:18
um rough time early on yeah just early
00:29:20
on just yeah just
00:29:22
just change and her having both of us
00:29:25
having to change and so
00:29:28
um but then she was amazing
00:29:31
around my mental health because she just
00:29:33
thought it was normal whereas I thought
00:29:34
it was this massive thing in my life
00:29:37
which it was but she just thought it was
00:29:40
normal so she was really good at
00:29:42
accepting it and and helping me with
00:29:44
emotions you know I'm
00:29:46
I still I I'm still working on how good
00:29:50
they are at being emotional yeah
00:29:52
Italians you know like they can she can
00:29:55
fly off in that
00:29:56
you know and be angry and then in two
00:29:58
seconds later she's trying to give you a
00:30:00
kiss yeah well I went to um Argentina a
00:30:03
few years ago and I was surprised at um
00:30:04
the some this English speaking tour
00:30:05
guide I spoke to he said that most
00:30:07
people over there have a therapist and
00:30:08
it's just something they do so like a
00:30:10
therapist over there like personal
00:30:11
trainers here and people just go because
00:30:13
they like to gesticulate and vent and
00:30:16
but it's just not a not a kiwi way is it
00:30:18
it's like if you hear someone's going to
00:30:19
therapy it's like oh [ __ ] is everything
00:30:21
okay yeah and that needs to change yeah
00:30:23
I I uh I talk about the maid of mine who
00:30:26
came around and um
00:30:27
you know we're talking footy talking
00:30:29
code you know talking code and uh he
00:30:32
goes oh buddy you know stuff my knee at
00:30:35
touch the other night and I'm going like
00:30:36
yeah well we're playing the over 40 so
00:30:38
he gives a [ __ ]
00:30:39
it's not as if you're out out with
00:30:42
covert for the All Blacks no one really
00:30:45
cares
00:30:46
um but anyway we were talking away and
00:30:48
he said oh but that's not what I'm here
00:30:50
for bro you know I think I've got a case
00:30:51
of the jks and I said oh yeah he didn't
00:30:54
say that though yeah and I go okay okay
00:30:59
so what have you done for your knee and
00:31:01
he said well
00:31:02
you know it swelled up the next day I
00:31:04
went to the doctor the doctor gave me
00:31:05
some anti-inflammatory said oh you
00:31:06
better go and see you know a specialist
00:31:08
I went to see a specialist and and you
00:31:10
know the specialist actually is the
00:31:12
specialist that saw Sonny Bill Williams
00:31:13
I said well ask him to put some pace and
00:31:16
maybe some ABS back then when you get
00:31:17
operate on you know we're just having a
00:31:19
good old boys taking the test out of
00:31:21
each other
00:31:22
um and then he said and what the what
00:31:25
the doc said to me is actually do rehab
00:31:27
before I opt I'm going to get operated
00:31:28
in three weeks and then it's probably
00:31:30
going to be a you know a three to six
00:31:33
months recovery and I'll be back for
00:31:34
touch next summer I said oh cool no one
00:31:36
really gives a [ __ ]
00:31:37
but it's all good you know what I mean
00:31:40
um and I said what have you done for
00:31:42
your brain
00:31:43
anyway oh I've come to see you and I see
00:31:46
you I'm a butcher
00:31:47
yeah I can help you
00:31:50
and I'm happy to sit here and tell you
00:31:52
what I did but look what you did for
00:31:53
your knee
00:31:55
you should do that for your brain yeah
00:31:56
you know some of the greatest life
00:31:58
lessons I've learned have been off
00:32:00
psychologists and psychiatrists just
00:32:02
about understanding the Old nutmeg you
00:32:04
know
00:32:05
um so if we do it for our physical body
00:32:08
I'll say to you mate you've got a flu
00:32:10
for three days right what do you do you
00:32:12
go down to local chemist and whatever's
00:32:14
on TV Fire relax
00:32:16
whatever that is right and then after
00:32:18
three days if it hasn't come right you
00:32:20
go to the doctor yeah yeah and he says
00:32:22
oh well at the moment you know we can't
00:32:23
talk about the flu because everyone does
00:32:25
a covert test but you know what I mean
00:32:27
we take out we've got to take our mental
00:32:29
health like we do our physical health
00:32:30
yeah
00:32:31
well there's some since um I launched
00:32:33
this podcast in uh like February
00:32:35
um your mental health is something that
00:32:37
I've I've talked about a lot and I've um
00:32:39
I feel like I've got a lot of
00:32:40
undeserved and unnecessary
00:32:43
um DMS and kudos for people saying hey
00:32:45
it's good that you're talking about this
00:32:46
stuff
00:32:47
um but I feel like there's like physical
00:32:49
health and mental health and they
00:32:50
shouldn't be yeah you know you should
00:32:52
one shouldn't be excluded like the other
00:32:54
one isn't but I don't know if you
00:32:56
noticed on but you your head is attached
00:32:58
to your body you know what I mean yeah
00:33:00
by the neck right yeah and so everyone
00:33:04
has mental health right and mine came
00:33:07
out mentally I know people that it comes
00:33:10
out physically
00:33:11
um how do you mean how do you mean well
00:33:13
they just get aches and stomach aches
00:33:16
and caused by stress and yeah yeah and
00:33:18
chest pain and they go to the doctor and
00:33:20
Doctor there's nothing I mean I've I've
00:33:21
had I've had people that go to the
00:33:23
hospital with a heart attack and it's
00:33:24
anxiety yeah right so Stress and Anxiety
00:33:27
is a cumulative
00:33:29
if you don't get rid of it today you're
00:33:32
going to accumulate it for tomorrow and
00:33:34
you know you you I presume you've
00:33:37
changed your life in the last couple of
00:33:39
years but you had this incredibly busy
00:33:41
life right and I'll take you back to
00:33:43
when you're 23. you know you've finished
00:33:45
whatever your studies was and you start
00:33:47
your new job Christmas holidays come
00:33:48
around right by the time you get to the
00:33:51
car park you're on a holiday man you've
00:33:52
forgotten about work by the time you get
00:33:53
to your real holiday the next day it
00:33:55
feels like you've been on holiday for a
00:33:57
week you get three weeks off feels like
00:33:58
three months
00:33:59
what was the last time you went on
00:34:01
holiday how long did it take you to
00:34:03
disconnect from your phone how long does
00:34:04
it take you not to feel guilty about
00:34:06
answering emails how long does it take
00:34:08
you to stop your brain and just let your
00:34:10
brain wander you know like you pick up
00:34:12
your phone because your brain's so full
00:34:14
of [ __ ] now that you don't even know how
00:34:16
to just wander and think and create yeah
00:34:19
and and so if you don't get rid of your
00:34:22
stress and anxiety every day you're not
00:34:24
going to be able to recover on the
00:34:25
weekends you know so it's really really
00:34:28
important that we look at our mental
00:34:30
health like we do our physical health I
00:34:32
feel like the um the conversation has
00:34:34
come such a long way and you your the
00:34:38
work that you've done on that is just
00:34:39
phenomenal like you you were the you
00:34:41
were the Trailblazer like you were the
00:34:42
Edmund Hillary and the stuff why why
00:34:45
what year did you come out and talk of
00:34:47
mental health first of all and and why
00:34:49
did you decide that publicly when the
00:34:50
easy thing to do not the right thing to
00:34:52
do but the easy thing to do would just
00:34:53
be to keep it to yourself and keep it to
00:34:55
your family and keep it to Dr John
00:34:58
um so I think I'll be the face of this
00:35:00
for 15 years yeah it's been longer than
00:35:02
that though yeah yeah it feels longer
00:35:04
than that it does too
00:35:06
um and back back to my mum so uh
00:35:12
uh I didn't want to do it I thought I'm
00:35:14
going to ruin my reputation I'm going to
00:35:15
ruin everything I've worked hard for
00:35:18
people see me as
00:35:20
a leper in the society not good enough
00:35:23
not not
00:35:25
being able to handle the pressure
00:35:26
because this is what you go through when
00:35:28
you're in this hell you know you think
00:35:29
you think it's you rather than the
00:35:31
illness
00:35:32
and my mom said how bad was it in there
00:35:35
I said mum was hell on Earth like I
00:35:37
would not wish it on anyone and there
00:35:40
isn't anywhere in your head when you're
00:35:41
going when I was in depression right
00:35:42
right help
00:35:44
and she said well if you could help one
00:35:47
person not to live that hell would it be
00:35:49
worth it
00:35:50
and I said yes and she said well there's
00:35:52
your answer
00:35:53
so I've always done it for one person
00:35:57
whoever a I can help and B I just keep
00:36:01
telling the story because
00:36:04
um you know and I'm so pleased that
00:36:06
you're sitting here in front of me
00:36:08
because you are now picking up the Baton
00:36:09
and you're talking about it and you
00:36:11
might not have the same experience as me
00:36:14
but it doesn't matter everyone's got
00:36:15
their own mental health journey and
00:36:17
whether it's you know you're going
00:36:19
through your breakup or you know being a
00:36:21
celebrity or whatever that Journey was
00:36:23
for you everyone has their own mental
00:36:26
health and everyone has their own points
00:36:28
where we're we're pushing right so you
00:36:31
know I talked about bipolar before and
00:36:33
the stats in our country are four
00:36:34
percent of people are born with some
00:36:35
sort of mental health issue
00:36:36
schizophrenia bifolar some sort of
00:36:40
um some sort of personality disorder and
00:36:43
we should be spending as much money as
00:36:45
we can and getting them as early as we
00:36:47
can because I do believe the future of
00:36:49
those illnesses will be turned around
00:36:51
like all other illnesses four percent of
00:36:53
the population never suffer but the 92
00:36:55
percent of us you and me and everyone
00:36:57
else in this world we get pushed up and
00:36:59
down that Spectrum right so what
00:37:01
happened to me was I was an
00:37:02
anxiety-based person that didn't deal
00:37:04
with this anxiety and I got pushed
00:37:06
off the cliff we've got to stop pushing
00:37:09
people off the cliff we've got to put a
00:37:10
fence at the top of the cliff and move
00:37:11
that move that back
00:37:14
so you must be so proud of the stuff
00:37:16
you've done on this realm not at all
00:37:18
mate no no no I mean how can you not be
00:37:20
how can you say that um because mental
00:37:22
health taught me to live by the day so
00:37:25
can you change yesterday no can you tell
00:37:28
me what's gonna happen tomorrow no no
00:37:30
exactly right so
00:37:32
um I woke up five years ago and felt an
00:37:34
absolute failure and I felt a failure
00:37:36
now don't get me wrong
00:37:38
um
00:37:39
Friday used to be a big shock of mine
00:37:41
and it used to scare the [ __ ] out of me
00:37:43
and make me swim very fast as the Sharks
00:37:45
does but unfortunately sharks always
00:37:47
catch you and failure was one of my big
00:37:49
sharks but now I love failure it's one
00:37:52
of the greatest teachers yeah the
00:37:54
biggest lessons I learned yeah exactly
00:37:56
and so I embrace it so I woke up five
00:37:58
years ago and two things happened to me
00:38:01
I looked at the newspaper and our
00:38:04
suicide rates
00:38:05
are going the wrong way so by the end of
00:38:08
this evening
00:38:10
one person will be dead by tomorrow
00:38:12
evening three people will be dead two
00:38:15
males and one female three human lives
00:38:18
um so I felt like I'd failed and then I
00:38:22
get really really upset with
00:38:25
um people
00:38:27
sort of talking about this issue and
00:38:28
nothing really changing yeah so our
00:38:30
stats aren't eight hundred thousand
00:38:31
people committed suicide last year in
00:38:34
Australia 120 attempts eight deaths a
00:38:36
day so I've failed I might have raised
00:38:39
the awareness but we needed to look at
00:38:40
things differently and so I decided to
00:38:43
look at things very differently five
00:38:44
years ago and created a foundation which
00:38:47
has I facilitated for a year and we
00:38:50
created a a mental health curriculum for
00:38:54
primary schools and the first the first
00:38:57
thing we we spoke about was well we
00:38:59
should put it in secondary school
00:39:00
because the kids need it now at
00:39:01
secondary school but actually they need
00:39:03
to learn the tools by the time they get
00:39:05
to secondary school yeah they are
00:39:06
preventions better than a cure exactly
00:39:08
yeah and then the other thing the other
00:39:09
thing thing that I did was
00:39:11
depression.org.nz 12 years ago which we
00:39:13
created with the New Zealand government
00:39:14
was one of the most successful online
00:39:17
mental health tools in the world so it
00:39:19
won all these amazing Awards this is no
00:39:22
one's fault but for the last 12 years no
00:39:24
one spent any money on the technology
00:39:25
kept and I gave my image to the
00:39:29
government for nothing I was proud to do
00:39:30
so driving people to the site that was
00:39:33
then starting to get clunky so very
00:39:35
lucky I met my my business partner Adam
00:39:38
Clark who who's been absolutely amazing
00:39:40
and and my dream was to create a
00:39:44
world-class world-changing digital
00:39:45
platform
00:39:47
that people could teach and learn and
00:39:50
understand their mental health and what
00:39:51
we wanted to do was do that through
00:39:53
businesses because we didn't want the
00:39:54
end user to pay right I had a few false
00:39:56
starts and then I went to him and I said
00:39:58
okay I want to reach 2 million 456 000
00:40:00
people because that's the working force
00:40:02
of New Zealand
00:40:03
um and he said JK this is a worldwide
00:40:06
problem we should reach 100 million
00:40:07
people and save a hundred thousand lives
00:40:10
because I firmly believe that the future
00:40:12
is everybody understanding their mental
00:40:15
health and then having the tools and
00:40:17
techniques that they need every single
00:40:18
day to deal with what the world throws
00:40:21
at them so that's my journey at the
00:40:23
moment but I don't I don't look back and
00:40:25
I don't look forward all I do is I and
00:40:27
this was because I wanted to jump out of
00:40:29
a window one night all I want to be is
00:40:31
the best meat today and I break those
00:40:33
things into four things
00:40:36
I want to be a great
00:40:38
dad I want to be a great husband I want
00:40:42
to be really good at whatever
00:40:43
I'm doing so at the moment it's it's
00:40:45
mighty and and
00:40:48
um and growth and the last thing is I
00:40:50
want to be very spiritual
00:40:53
and that's another story because I had
00:40:55
some issues with God
00:40:56
but I want to make sure that I'm looking
00:40:58
after my spirituality and and my mental
00:41:00
health is
00:41:02
is the foundation yeah right those
00:41:04
things right yeah yeah can we talk about
00:41:06
the um the religion stuff because you
00:41:07
touched upon that early early in this uh
00:41:10
this conversation and you just brought
00:41:11
it up again now so you were raised
00:41:13
religious yeah I was raised to Catholic
00:41:15
ah same
00:41:17
in Europe as well have you got a guilt
00:41:21
shark most of us
00:41:22
got it every time um you're growing up
00:41:26
if um if if I did something wrong one of
00:41:28
my brothers did something wrong and went
00:41:29
to snitch to mum or dad it'll always be
00:41:31
like don't worry God will punish them
00:41:33
exactly or if you do that that's going
00:41:35
to happen so we feel guilty so much
00:41:37
can't let go so you're an atheist now no
00:41:39
no no no no no no no not at all I
00:41:42
um I'm not a practicing Catholic so I
00:41:45
don't
00:41:46
um I'm not a Vatican Catholic
00:41:48
but I well it's a really interesting
00:41:50
story so I got told all my life as you
00:41:53
would of that if I'm in trouble and I
00:41:55
need God and I pray he'd be there for me
00:41:57
I wanted to jump out a window I prayed
00:41:59
and it wasn't there
00:42:01
so I was pretty dark on him for a long
00:42:03
time and then I went and actually did a
00:42:06
prenuptial wedding thing
00:42:08
with my wife right and I said I'm not
00:42:10
doing it she said it's six week course I
00:42:12
said I'm not doing it like are you
00:42:13
kidding me but anyway I got her down to
00:42:16
three days any argument another one
00:42:21
yeah but anyway I walked in and I just
00:42:24
told this priest
00:42:25
[Music]
00:42:26
um
00:42:27
I just sit on man this is what happened
00:42:30
pretty hours guide and he said to me how
00:42:33
was um
00:42:35
how was your family when you told them I
00:42:37
said oh they were awesome you know they
00:42:38
showed me a lot of love
00:42:40
and he said okay and he said what about
00:42:41
your mates and I said well my mates were
00:42:43
really pissed off that I hadn't told
00:42:44
them about my depression and stuff but
00:42:46
when I told them they were amazing I
00:42:48
said they showed you a lot of love eh I
00:42:49
said
00:42:51
yeah and then and they said well what
00:42:52
about your wife to be how a chef's eyes
00:42:54
it's so patient amazing oh she showed
00:42:57
you a lot of money and I said yeah and
00:42:58
he said make God is love
00:43:00
that's all he is he is love and that
00:43:04
really gave me peace because then I
00:43:06
decided that if I show more love as much
00:43:10
love as I can to as many people as I can
00:43:12
then I will be a spiritually okay and
00:43:16
then if I do get to heaven and Izzy up
00:43:17
there I'm pretty sure he's going to let
00:43:19
me in anyway yeah yeah I mean the guys
00:43:21
hey Dom how are you met you in here
00:43:24
you know what I mean yeah we got all the
00:43:26
[ __ ] we got brought up yeah but if
00:43:29
you're a and this is this is this led me
00:43:31
to thinking about you know
00:43:33
um you know you see lots of other
00:43:35
religions but at the end of the day if
00:43:37
you as a person are going to show your
00:43:40
community and those around you as much
00:43:41
love as you can then I think spiritually
00:43:44
you're in a really good space yeah but
00:43:45
giving love
00:43:47
um takes a bit of time and takes a bit
00:43:49
of effort you know yeah it it takes work
00:43:52
on to be able to give back to your
00:43:54
community to be able to give to those
00:43:55
around you time especially right
00:43:58
um the world is taking time away from us
00:44:00
and so a lot of the love that you can
00:44:02
show to something you need to plan and
00:44:05
make sure you're doing it properly yeah
00:44:07
so so you mentioned before the um the
00:44:09
the priest or spiritual leader asking
00:44:12
you like how your friends were when they
00:44:13
found out about your depression I just
00:44:15
want to touch upon this for a second so
00:44:18
um I think it's Grant fox in your book
00:44:19
he he talks about how he had no idea
00:44:21
sort of thing did should it have been
00:44:24
and and like in hindsight you chose to
00:44:27
keep it to yourself and um they would
00:44:29
probably probably seem like the right
00:44:31
thing to do in hindsight should you
00:44:33
should you have told your friends that
00:44:34
were close to you on the team or should
00:44:36
have been up to them too no no no why
00:44:38
should the onus be on you when you're
00:44:39
the sick one because you can't see it if
00:44:41
I walked in limping today you'd say oh
00:44:43
it's okay what's wrong with your knee
00:44:44
right
00:44:46
um You can't see it yeah and so people
00:44:49
don't know
00:44:50
and as we mentioned before we faked I
00:44:53
faked it right so I'm leveling in this
00:44:55
hell but I could still sit down and do
00:44:57
an interview or I could go and play a
00:44:59
game of rugby right so
00:45:02
um I say this it is your health so you
00:45:05
share it with whoever you feel
00:45:07
comfortable with so I've shared mine
00:45:09
with the world but you you share it with
00:45:11
people who sure love you and care for
00:45:13
you right and you might lose a couple of
00:45:16
people around it right but those are the
00:45:18
decisions that you need to make and so
00:45:20
your mental health is to do what you
00:45:23
want to do with it but keeping it to
00:45:25
yourself and not telling people is not
00:45:26
the answer
00:45:27
the answer is you know if you don't want
00:45:30
to tell your friends you've got to tell
00:45:33
your family or if it's not your family
00:45:34
you've got to tell a psychiatrist a
00:45:36
psychologist you've got to get help
00:45:37
right so the most important thing is you
00:45:41
share it with those who you trust
00:45:42
because then it's half the load you know
00:45:45
when I started sharing I mean
00:45:47
that person's pain that through that
00:45:49
that person you know and you start
00:45:51
building a community which makes you
00:45:52
feel way more normal yeah because did
00:45:55
you find as soon as you came clean about
00:45:56
a whole lot of people came to you they
00:45:58
had exactly the same feelings yeah I
00:46:00
think
00:46:01
um I think the honesty that it creates
00:46:03
in a relationship is really healthy yeah
00:46:05
and I think especially for males because
00:46:07
often I have some beautiful
00:46:09
relationships with some really close
00:46:10
friends and it's not superficial it's
00:46:13
not a you know which I I also love our
00:46:16
superficial part of our relationship
00:46:17
because we're probably males you know we
00:46:19
love the banter and taking the piss and
00:46:21
that which I really enjoy but I've got
00:46:23
some really beautiful relationships
00:46:26
where my friends tell me they're not too
00:46:28
good you know and I think that's that's
00:46:31
cool and I have relationships where a
00:46:34
few see me and I know you and you ask me
00:46:36
how I am I'm going to tell you the truth
00:46:38
um
00:46:38
so you know and and some days I'll say
00:46:41
mate it's like I said who'd I say to
00:46:43
yesterday very very difficult to find
00:46:45
someone better than me at the moment
00:46:46
because I'm on fire but then I will tell
00:46:49
you a bit flat I'm a bit anxious or
00:46:51
whatever so some some days you just wake
00:46:53
up feeling [ __ ] for no reason
00:46:55
um I normally so so one of the one of
00:46:58
the things that we talk about and I talk
00:47:00
about and and being in your groove right
00:47:02
so when I'm in my groove how do I how do
00:47:05
I feel
00:47:06
and
00:47:07
and feel being in your groove is
00:47:09
actually feeling good and functioning
00:47:10
well right so when I'm in my groove
00:47:12
everything's going good at home I'm
00:47:15
really creative I'm really optimistic I
00:47:18
love the little things in life like I
00:47:19
laugh at some stupid stuff you know
00:47:22
um which is which is really really cool
00:47:24
so when I'm feeling like that I know
00:47:26
that I'm in my groove but I also talk
00:47:29
about my AAA Battery right so when my
00:47:31
battery is low I do three things which I
00:47:34
didn't do for a long long time which is
00:47:36
really important so my triple Bay a
00:47:37
battery is be aware
00:47:40
acknowledge and then act right so when
00:47:44
I'm feeling
00:47:45
flat sometimes I'll go okay I'm feeling
00:47:49
flat so I'm aware I'll acknowledge why
00:47:52
so three weeks ago I was really anxious
00:47:55
not feeling great it was a Monday and
00:47:57
then when I had a look at my life I
00:47:59
thought you've been breaking some of
00:48:00
your own rules JK you know you haven't
00:48:02
had a day off you've been doing this
00:48:03
doing that you know you've probably been
00:48:05
drinking a bit too much like you're
00:48:07
breaking your own rules so aware then I
00:48:10
acknowledged it and then I acted on it
00:48:12
and I and I said right I took a day out
00:48:14
of my week canceled some stuff
00:48:17
and went to the beach for three days and
00:48:20
just really reassessed where I was so I
00:48:23
don't let those sometimes I just feel
00:48:25
flat and I might be tired might not have
00:48:27
slept well I might have had too much
00:48:28
coffee yesterday those things are just
00:48:30
life but if I feel myself getting
00:48:32
anxious and some of my sharks are
00:48:34
turning Then I then I take a bit of a
00:48:35
triple a battery look at it and reassess
00:48:38
very quickly so I don't let that go
00:48:40
unfortunately I find a lot of people
00:48:42
just carry on you know
00:48:47
you know
00:48:50
and I just think that's really unhealthy
00:48:51
yeah
00:48:52
so the sharks are still there but you
00:48:54
know when they're getting close yeah no
00:48:56
I mean
00:48:57
I mean it's an interesting story it's
00:48:58
another story about um Dr Louise
00:49:00
Armstrong so when early in the piece
00:49:02
when I accepted my illness
00:49:04
she said okay well
00:49:06
what do you want to do I still want to
00:49:07
be great at it
00:49:08
so I'm going to be great at this illness
00:49:11
um and look I love being blissfully
00:49:13
average right so it's really cool
00:49:16
what do you mean what the hell have you
00:49:19
ever been blissfully average at I'm
00:49:21
blissfully yeah it's a guitar and
00:49:23
surfing okay and I think it's okay yeah
00:49:27
like I was talking to someone the other
00:49:29
day and they said um you know I just did
00:49:31
a marathon cool you know I took them for
00:49:34
whatever and and they said I was
00:49:37
blissfully average that's okay in some
00:49:40
of the things in your life yes right and
00:49:42
so I went to her and I was on my own how
00:49:45
would you look like to learn how to
00:49:48
um do self-hypnosis man this is the 80s
00:49:51
bro like if you did Jaeger you had dope
00:49:53
smoking so none of this funny
00:49:55
alternative [ __ ] back then this is one
00:49:57
of the Stars
00:49:59
exactly yoga you're kidding yourself
00:50:01
you're happy but anyway I I went and did
00:50:04
it and she said what do you love doing
00:50:05
and I said I love surfing she said okay
00:50:07
well in your mind
00:50:09
so we did this breathing exercises and
00:50:11
we did this thing with my arm and in my
00:50:12
mind I put on board shorts ran down the
00:50:14
beach without the water
00:50:16
paddled out two to three foot Perfection
00:50:18
surfed really well
00:50:19
and then when she brought me out of it
00:50:21
depression and anxiety offers this
00:50:24
heaviness on my head it's cloud and
00:50:27
um
00:50:27
that was gone so I went home and said to
00:50:29
my wife
00:50:30
was my girlfriend back then I'm going to
00:50:31
do that so I go upstairs a bit early do
00:50:33
the same you know do the breathing put
00:50:35
the bottles on run down feel the water
00:50:36
feels great paddle out two to three foot
00:50:39
Perfection four sharks in the water shut
00:50:41
myself and go down right and I go back
00:50:44
to the actual sharks well not the sharks
00:50:46
in your mind have you ever been yeah
00:50:48
have you ever been in the
00:50:50
water with a shark [ __ ] no yeah well you
00:50:53
can imagine yeah so I couldn't explain
00:50:55
what was going on on my head yeah there
00:50:57
was this fear
00:50:58
it's Fierce circling me that felt like
00:51:00
sharks in my mind so I called them my
00:51:02
sharks now I know I could explain back
00:51:03
to the psychiatrist was
00:51:05
there were sharks in my water she said
00:51:07
JK they're your sharks
00:51:10
um you have to get them smaller get the
00:51:11
teeth out of them and get them out of
00:51:14
your mind and so
00:51:16
my first shark was a dumb shot
00:51:19
now this took a while by the way so I go
00:51:22
home thinking sharks my sharks what is
00:51:23
this [ __ ] about okay what's really
00:51:25
what's really driving some of this
00:51:28
Behavior
00:51:28
yeah my first one was a dumb shark you
00:51:30
know I left school at 15 never passed an
00:51:32
exam in my life got told I was dumb
00:51:35
um you know my mates told me I was dumb
00:51:37
my teachers told me I was Dumb and so I
00:51:39
felt dumb
00:51:41
where are you though
00:51:42
were you done with just school to school
00:51:45
dumb yeah that's right and but I felt I
00:51:47
was dumb right right because
00:51:49
um Society tells you if you're
00:51:50
intelligent you pass these exams okay
00:51:52
right I never passed one so I'm dumb and
00:51:57
um that was my shock so what I did is I
00:52:00
thought okay I'm going to address this I
00:52:02
went back into the education system
00:52:04
that let me down or I let it down and
00:52:07
failed a game right but what I
00:52:10
what I do do now is I'm not
00:52:14
educated but I'm not done right but it
00:52:17
was a big shock you know then I had a
00:52:19
guilt shark I had an imposter syndrome
00:52:21
show
00:52:23
um you know and so I slowly dealt with
00:52:25
those with those sharks and now when I'm
00:52:29
getting
00:52:30
unwell
00:52:32
my sharks come back right where they
00:52:34
start when I start feeling what are you
00:52:36
doing jacket what are you talking to Dom
00:52:38
what are you doing a podcast for you
00:52:39
idiot like you dummy like you know I
00:52:43
know that I'm and it doesn't happen much
00:52:45
at all yeah yeah because I'm I'm always
00:52:47
right so you um there's there's no
00:52:50
reason for you ever to get I'm really
00:52:51
sick again because you're that
00:52:53
self-aware you've done that much work so
00:52:55
you know when when things are creeping
00:52:57
up on you yeah I'm not worried about it
00:52:59
yeah yeah I've taken the fear out of
00:53:01
I've taken the fear out of anxiety I
00:53:03
still have the anxiety attack you know
00:53:05
but instead of lasting a day it lasts
00:53:07
like 10 seconds yeah
00:53:09
um you know I had one the other night I
00:53:10
got a bit of you know
00:53:13
I'm actually going to see a specialist
00:53:14
today you know
00:53:15
and the other night I was lying in bed
00:53:17
my ears are ringing and I'm going
00:53:19
I started to get anxious about having to
00:53:22
live with us this could drive me insane
00:53:23
yeah yeah but then I just went don't
00:53:26
message okay you just need to
00:53:28
accept it and listen
00:53:30
because what I learned with my anxiety
00:53:32
the more I pushed it away the more it
00:53:34
had come forcing back into it of it
00:53:37
instead of actually accepting it and
00:53:39
sitting it on my knee so what I did the
00:53:41
other night was just a couple of my
00:53:42
techniques I just sat with it and just
00:53:45
thought it's going to be fine because if
00:53:46
you sit with it then you stop hearing it
00:53:48
so but I was really anxious for the
00:53:50
light my the the the the lockdown in
00:53:53
covert last year I just wasn't ready for
00:53:55
it for some dumb reason yeah and I
00:53:57
didn't have my support and experiment
00:53:58
and I was really really anxious for
00:54:01
three days until I went back to my
00:54:04
battery yeah why are you anxious what do
00:54:06
you need to do put the safety in it geez
00:54:08
that's some good takeaways I think that
00:54:10
things that anyone can Implement right
00:54:11
yeah of course you can because it's it's
00:54:13
just a daily Mental Health Plan like you
00:54:16
know I did some cognitive behavior
00:54:18
therapy and I was talking to Adam one of
00:54:20
my best mates the other day about it
00:54:21
about being anxious about mother
00:54:23
bringing in my ears but what happened
00:54:24
was I just call it rewiring your brain
00:54:27
my brain took over saying JK breathe
00:54:31
if you accept this you'll be fine you
00:54:34
know you've got you've booked the
00:54:35
specialist just relax and read a book
00:54:38
and that's what I did so that that's a
00:54:40
that's a series of things that you can
00:54:43
do when you're when you're anxious that
00:54:44
I had to learn
00:54:46
can we can we talk about a couple of
00:54:47
your sharks that you mentioned um first
00:54:49
of all
00:54:51
um The Imposter syndrome shark because
00:54:53
uh that's that's something I've had as
00:54:54
well and I I was on a podcast about a
00:54:56
month ago that you've been on as well
00:54:57
called between two beers and that they
00:54:59
asked me about it and the way I sort of
00:55:01
explained to them is like through my
00:55:03
through my radio career I said that it'd
00:55:05
be Peaks where it would go away like I'd
00:55:07
win an award and go away or someone
00:55:08
would try and poach me and I'd get a big
00:55:10
pay rise and would go away temporarily
00:55:11
I'd have these like Spike validations
00:55:14
and it would go away but in some ways I
00:55:16
look back on my uh 30 odd years and
00:55:18
radio and I think it maybe it was like
00:55:20
helpful in a way because it just made me
00:55:21
like swim harder because I felt like I
00:55:23
needed to to keep up was that the same
00:55:25
with you in rugby oh totally I mean and
00:55:27
it's really interesting because a lot of
00:55:29
successful people have an imposter
00:55:31
syndrome and like I say
00:55:34
um if you want to win an Olympic race
00:55:36
swimming
00:55:37
get chased by a shark
00:55:39
you're gonna you're gonna get that
00:55:42
record time but the shark is going to
00:55:44
eat you yeah the shark is going to win
00:55:45
that race right you know what I'm saying
00:55:47
so yeah the trouble is with giving up my
00:55:49
imposter shark was it made me who I was
00:55:52
it made me I did that good totally yeah
00:55:55
because I'm coming off the field
00:55:56
thinking I'm gonna get dropped on Monday
00:55:58
right
00:55:59
I'm not good enough when are they going
00:56:01
to find out I'm not good enough when
00:56:02
they're going to find out I'm just lucky
00:56:04
but the trouble is that often our brain
00:56:05
will lie to us you were amazing on radio
00:56:09
because you had a talent for it you did
00:56:12
the hard work right whatever that three
00:56:15
or four things where but you don't
00:56:17
listen to that all the time you go [ __ ]
00:56:20
but then you get addicted to
00:56:23
the shark because it actually drives you
00:56:26
because you've won that award and then a
00:56:28
week later think uh [ __ ] you know
00:56:30
I'm not any good anymore and you just
00:56:33
keep driving yeah and I think the
00:56:35
hardest thing when you're an imposter
00:56:37
syndrome is part of your success is
00:56:41
really identifying why you've been
00:56:43
successful and really embracing that and
00:56:47
um part of that for me was
00:56:50
um you know I I talk about my sister
00:56:53
Rings me and says g'day little bro how
00:56:55
is it fantastic how are you great why
00:56:58
are you so good I've just looked in the
00:57:00
mirror are you vain
00:57:03
but there's a part in imposter syndrome
00:57:06
that we actually never good enough and
00:57:08
we don't actually love ourselves and
00:57:10
look at the achievement that we've done
00:57:12
now
00:57:14
what happens is you get addicted to the
00:57:16
Imposter because that's driving you to
00:57:18
to keep getting better yeah so how do
00:57:21
you replace that and I think that was
00:57:23
one of the biggest things how do I
00:57:25
replace the shark
00:57:28
um but keep getting motivated and keep
00:57:30
driving and you're probably doing that
00:57:31
now you know you've given it all away
00:57:34
and you've got this new motivation and
00:57:35
you're finding other things that make
00:57:38
you want to be the best that you can be
00:57:40
every single day and I think once you
00:57:42
flick that and once you get rid of the
00:57:44
shark you you keep that same things
00:57:46
that's made you
00:57:48
who you are and what you're great at
00:57:51
um but you get rid of some of that
00:57:52
stress that comes with it that that that
00:57:54
running that chasing and real
00:57:57
interesting you talk about
00:57:58
um drinking you know I say to people uh
00:58:00
drinking is not my problem stopping us
00:58:04
oh yeah I think I'm like you I I love my
00:58:06
wine so Reds in particular but are you
00:58:09
have you got a healthy relationship with
00:58:10
alcohol now like can you drink like an
00:58:12
Italian as in I have two with dinner and
00:58:14
then have finished with a with a coffee
00:58:16
um I'm that's my challenge right yeah
00:58:19
yeah whenever I first time I went to
00:58:20
Europe it's like um you have two over
00:58:22
dinner and then the waiter would say do
00:58:23
you want a coffee and I'm like no no no
00:58:25
yeah I remember having a party in my
00:58:28
Italian house one night
00:58:30
um and the first night a whole lot of
00:58:32
kiwi mates came to visit and um my
00:58:35
father-in-law came up the next day to me
00:58:37
said to me oh I'm sorry what went wrong
00:58:41
and I said what do you mean he said wow
00:58:43
was the wine off and I said why he said
00:58:46
there's 36 bottles outside
00:58:49
right
00:58:51
and there was 10 of us at dinner
00:58:53
all right and um just the right amount
00:58:55
yeah and the next night I had ten
00:58:58
Italians for dinner and there was five
00:59:00
bottles outside but also I think one
00:59:03
point like you come to my placement I'm
00:59:05
pouring you wine in Italy you pour your
00:59:07
own one right right but I'm I don't want
00:59:10
you talking about wine so my
00:59:12
relationship with with alcohol I have a
00:59:14
wine company wine importing business I
00:59:16
love my wine and my goal is to actually
00:59:18
you know enjoy it for what it is and I I
00:59:22
have some triggers now that I try and
00:59:25
listen to
00:59:26
um but also I was brought up as a binge
00:59:29
drinking kiwi so it's still associated
00:59:31
with relaxing and having a good time
00:59:33
which is wrong but you know that's the
00:59:36
that's the culture we're always brought
00:59:38
up in and so it is a challenge for me
00:59:41
yeah
00:59:44
um can we talk about the um the other
00:59:46
shark that you mentioned the dumb shark
00:59:47
and then maybe we'll get into some fun
00:59:49
stuff before we finish I know I know you
00:59:51
say yesterday's in the past and whatever
00:59:53
but
00:59:54
um it's been I mean it's been a hell of
00:59:55
a life like we're focused on the mental
00:59:57
health stuff but
00:59:58
um a lot of like younger people I guess
01:00:00
listen to this won't have an idea of
01:00:02
like just what a phenomenal career you
01:00:04
have so
01:00:06
um
01:00:08
absolutely not it lives on YouTube
01:00:10
forever so yeah I'm the dumb Shack so
01:00:13
you left school at 15 and you you worked
01:00:15
with your dad as a a Butchery Apprentice
01:00:18
um was that a big call uh I'm guessing
01:00:20
you were like a talented or promising
01:00:22
rugby player no not really not really no
01:00:25
I was I was half back at school yeah I
01:00:28
made the first 15. you know I played all
01:00:30
sports like you know I loved all sports
01:00:32
because I only went to school to eat my
01:00:34
lunch and play sports films about it
01:00:36
really
01:00:37
um so yeah I made the first 15 as a half
01:00:39
back and then you know school just
01:00:40
wasn't for me obviously and so so it was
01:00:43
either you know I was going to go and
01:00:44
get a trade it was either be a butcher
01:00:46
or or be a builder and I just decided to
01:00:50
follow in Dad's footsteps so became an
01:00:52
apprentice butcher yeah did your parents
01:00:54
I don't know if you've had this chat
01:00:56
with them but they were sort of think
01:00:57
okay he'll do The Butchery thing and
01:00:59
rugby was still amateur them but you'd
01:01:01
still keep playing rugby and you'd keep
01:01:02
excelling at that or yeah well I think
01:01:04
no not at all so I went to Marist
01:01:07
um you know just went into the fifth
01:01:09
grade and
01:01:11
um you know I changed from Pete sneddon
01:01:15
who was my coach at the time he changed
01:01:17
me from half back to Wing I said I think
01:01:19
he'd be a really good Winger and so in
01:01:21
the fifth grade he changed me to the
01:01:22
wing and I really enjoyed it and I had
01:01:25
no Ambitions rugby was amateur rugby was
01:01:28
something that you did Tuesday Thursday
01:01:30
and Saturday right and even even at the
01:01:33
top level we're talking about then yeah
01:01:35
totally yeah yeah so I mean I was very
01:01:37
lucky I made the Auckland team when I
01:01:39
was 18.
01:01:40
um and we trained for Ma first on
01:01:43
Tuesday and Thursday and then you played
01:01:45
for you trained for Auckland on Monday
01:01:46
Wednesday
01:01:48
so and then we played on so I mean I
01:01:50
played a test match one of my first test
01:01:52
matches against France and came home and
01:01:54
played for Marist on Sunday
01:01:55
at uh in park number three so we were
01:01:58
totally amateurs I mean I I was not paid
01:02:01
to pay I was never a professional
01:02:04
rugby player in New Zealand ever I got
01:02:06
first got paid at the age of 29 when I
01:02:09
went to the Warriors right and then I
01:02:10
got paid for my last three years in
01:02:12
Japan as a professional so what did you
01:02:14
what did you get through your all black
01:02:16
years were you did you get like like per
01:02:17
dams like a daily yeah so I was players
01:02:20
committee
01:02:21
um towards the end of my career so when
01:02:23
I started it was 15 a day and pay for
01:02:25
your laundry
01:02:26
I was gonna ship money even back then
01:02:28
yeah and by the time I finished it was
01:02:32
55 a day and we're all trying to make
01:02:35
money you know around you know the game
01:02:38
was unsustainable in its current state
01:02:41
if you wanted to be best in the world so
01:02:44
by the end
01:02:45
um you know 94 when I finished rugby
01:02:48
went professional in 95 you know we were
01:02:50
we were getting money from Lion Nathan
01:02:53
or DB or whoever we could you know
01:02:57
um and so the game needed to go pro so
01:03:00
I'd go to Italy um 1989 you know I made
01:03:02
sixty thousand dollars and and that
01:03:05
might not sound a lot like a lot of
01:03:06
money to a lot of people but you could
01:03:07
buy a house in Mount Albert for 85. yeah
01:03:10
so wow yeah exactly and that was totally
01:03:13
illegal so you know Craig green and I we
01:03:16
often laugh about this he's over there
01:03:17
I'm catching up with him shortly my old
01:03:18
mate he's he's still in Italy he went
01:03:20
over after the World Cup in 87 and 88.
01:03:24
um and you know we'd drive across the
01:03:26
Swiss border and put money in a bank
01:03:28
account there
01:03:29
and then we'd send it to London and send
01:03:32
it home and if you declared it with the
01:03:33
with the government you were fine but if
01:03:36
rugby found out you'd be banned from the
01:03:38
game right so we had wow you just
01:03:41
weren't allowed to earn at all I know we
01:03:42
had to keep all that money yeah
01:03:44
um secret and one of the greatest things
01:03:46
I did after 89 is I brought I brought my
01:03:50
beach house or my Beach property with
01:03:52
that money because you had to spend it
01:03:53
straight away you know so um so the 1987
01:03:58
World Cup I I I wasn't I was never a
01:04:01
rugby player or anything but I was 14
01:04:02
years old at the time and you were as
01:04:04
big as big a star as what you could get
01:04:05
especially after this try you scored
01:04:07
against Italy you ran the length of the
01:04:08
field
01:04:09
um you must have got some like some some
01:04:11
money some commercial opportunities
01:04:13
after that some TV ads um yeah so it
01:04:17
um it was a really interesting time
01:04:18
because it was still amateur so we
01:04:19
weren't allowed to accept the money
01:04:22
um so it was all black money but right
01:04:24
yeah
01:04:26
um but I you know Andy Hayden May rest
01:04:28
in peace he was sort of the pioneer on
01:04:31
how to route the system of course he was
01:04:34
and make sure you got your money so I
01:04:37
think um
01:04:38
more so than 87 in 86 the Cavaliers tour
01:04:42
which I did not go on
01:04:44
um so that was to um a parad South
01:04:47
Africa yeah yourself and um David Kirk
01:04:49
did not go did not go no we did not go
01:04:52
um what was so for anyone for anyone
01:04:53
that can't remember that or has vague
01:04:55
memories of it what was the what was the
01:04:56
what was the controversy about it and
01:04:57
why did you decide not to go uh I was
01:04:59
the controversy is pretty easy because
01:05:02
South Africa was Apartheid yeah and
01:05:05
um the all black tour official all black
01:05:06
tour that I was available for because it
01:05:08
was official had been canceled
01:05:12
and so there was a Cavaliers tour
01:05:16
organized and
01:05:18
you know I decided that I wasn't going
01:05:21
to go if it wasn't an official
01:05:24
um so the plans that went was it like
01:05:25
it's a grade driven not really I I think
01:05:29
it's everyone has their own political
01:05:32
agenda and I you know
01:05:34
God or whoever you believe in will do
01:05:36
Judgment at the end of the day so some
01:05:37
people might have gone for the money
01:05:39
there was a decent amount of money
01:05:40
involved back in those days but some
01:05:43
people didn't think that Sports and
01:05:44
politics should mix and so it was
01:05:47
probably the worst time of my life to be
01:05:49
fair I had to grow up pretty quick I had
01:05:52
to stand up in front of my peers and
01:05:53
tell them I wasn't going and to be fair
01:05:55
to every single one of them they were
01:05:56
pretty good yeah about it
01:05:59
um so for me it was a it was a pretty
01:06:01
traumatic time but off the back of that
01:06:04
you know
01:06:06
the country was in real bad shape from a
01:06:09
rugby point of view the country was
01:06:10
divided
01:06:12
um the Cavaliers tour people it was the
01:06:15
first time it stopped being our national
01:06:16
game and people started thinking
01:06:18
stuff this so really difficult time but
01:06:22
then uh I actually started getting some
01:06:25
TV ads started to make a bit of money
01:06:28
outside the game right which which
01:06:30
really motivated me to try and continue
01:06:32
to be the best that I could be so back
01:06:35
then no one was professional and I
01:06:37
decided to get a personal trainer when
01:06:39
they went trendy and I decided that I
01:06:42
never I'd like to talk about imposter
01:06:44
shop I never thought I was good enough
01:06:45
so I thought how can I be better than
01:06:48
everyone else if I'm not good enough and
01:06:50
I thought that was through training
01:06:52
being as fit as I could and just being
01:06:54
an extra level from a physical point of
01:06:57
view and so that's that's what I that's
01:06:59
what I did in 1986
01:07:01
and then 87 came around and and
01:07:04
um you know I was probably in the best
01:07:07
form of my life with that combination
01:07:08
you know I'd matured enough at the test
01:07:10
Arena I've been going and training and
01:07:13
getting physically fit
01:07:16
um my my really good mate Pete young
01:07:18
hori who was my marriage training became
01:07:20
my personal trainer came around at six
01:07:22
a.m get me out of bed we did some really
01:07:23
interesting training through the trees
01:07:25
and it was just uh it was just a really
01:07:28
special
01:07:30
rugby timer Mars yeah through the trees
01:07:33
thing like I wanted to talk about that
01:07:34
because the the name of this podcast is
01:07:36
called Runners only believe it or not
01:07:37
and we haven't mentioned running at all
01:07:39
um but that try that I referenced just a
01:07:41
second ago in the 997 World Cup where
01:07:43
you basically ran the length of the
01:07:45
field through the Italian team how many
01:07:47
how many players did you pass like eight
01:07:49
I don't know I I don't know I keep
01:07:50
telling people I paid them they're all
01:07:52
my money and I'm still paying it was
01:07:55
like a length at the field try but you
01:07:57
you like trained for that moment by
01:07:58
running through like a forest yeah yeah
01:08:00
no if you go through Twin Oak Drive if
01:08:03
you're driving through Twin Oak drive
01:08:04
from the onion
01:08:06
um to the Epsom end if you go into the
01:08:09
trees to your left you'll find a row of
01:08:12
trees that has three trees and then a
01:08:15
gap and then another four trees and so I
01:08:17
ran through that
01:08:19
um at the uh so my dad once again I was
01:08:22
driving to work one morning and he said
01:08:24
I said I'm down I can't step and keep my
01:08:27
pace
01:08:28
he goes oh okay that's interesting
01:08:30
and he said
01:08:32
um oh okay so the next day he said in
01:08:34
the case said uh you want to fix that
01:08:36
step promise of you he said prepare to
01:08:39
pay the price I mean oh yeah okay so
01:08:43
about a week later he said to me on
01:08:44
Wednesday morning which was sausage
01:08:45
morning which was very difficult day if
01:08:47
you're a Apprentice butcher so you make
01:08:48
a couple hundred kilos of sausages and
01:08:50
he said take your boots so I take my
01:08:52
boots and and then after after lunch
01:08:56
Neville Denton comes in who was a maid
01:08:58
of my dad's and and they're standing
01:09:01
there and they're talking as if I'm not
01:09:02
there and Neville sister dad ah it's
01:09:04
just a boy yeah not much good eh there
01:09:07
goes no
01:09:08
[Laughter]
01:09:19
I'm just part of this conversation but
01:09:22
anyway he takes me up I do four four
01:09:24
hundreds then he takes me through the
01:09:25
trees and I can't do it I cannot do it
01:09:27
mate I step hit a tree like disgraceful
01:09:30
anyway we'll go back to work and um in
01:09:33
hindsight by the way would it have been
01:09:34
better if they were tackle bags or
01:09:36
something well no because a tackle bag
01:09:39
will actually fall over whereas the
01:09:41
trees are pretty good tackler you know
01:09:42
yeah you hit a tree at full Pace it's
01:09:45
gonna suppose that's the price you're
01:09:46
prepared to pay well no that's not the
01:09:48
price right oh yeah no so what happens
01:09:50
is I go back to work and you know Dad
01:09:52
says how's it going never goes no he's
01:09:54
no good I go back I go back every single
01:09:57
night it's like they thought you were
01:09:59
there exactly so I go back every single
01:10:01
night for like six months until I can
01:10:04
run through those trees at 100
01:10:07
um and that Italian try is actually for
01:10:10
me just trees I still see it now like if
01:10:13
I I know the angles even now that if I
01:10:16
run I know when I can step I know when
01:10:18
I'll hit the tree I know when I'm close
01:10:20
enough because the interesting thing for
01:10:21
me because I wasn't fast enough I needed
01:10:23
to leave you on the ground
01:10:25
when I beat you right because normally
01:10:28
you bring us back then we're way faster
01:10:29
okay
01:10:31
so anyway two weeks later it's sausage
01:10:33
day and Neville turns up with a wild pig
01:10:37
that's uh weighs 100 kilos
01:10:39
and
01:10:41
dad says to me
01:10:43
that's the price and you're not doing it
01:10:45
on my time so I had to break down the
01:10:47
peg make it into sausages and salami in
01:10:50
my lunch hour how long would that all
01:10:52
right so you get it done oh no probably
01:10:54
you know it probably took me it probably
01:10:56
took me two hours to do it yeah so yeah
01:10:59
but I wasn't allowed to do it on Dad's
01:11:01
time so I did on my lunch time and then
01:11:02
after work
01:11:07
hell yeah geez you're dead one
01:11:09
incredible man yeah
01:11:12
yeah yeah
01:11:14
um I I heard a story I don't know if
01:11:16
this is true or not um so you're 18
01:11:18
years old and John Hart wants you to
01:11:19
play for the Auckland B team and you're
01:11:21
dead yeah like negotiates to get you in
01:11:23
The A Team instead yeah yeah true story
01:11:26
so
01:11:27
um you know I played a game and and I
01:11:30
think John Graham May rest in peace he
01:11:33
was there and uh
01:11:34
anyway John Hart
01:11:36
contacted me and said like you'd like me
01:11:38
to come and meet with them so we're
01:11:39
butchers right so we still have those
01:11:42
elastic ties we even got 200 we've got
01:11:45
two two new ones man you know dad said
01:11:47
we better get dressed up we're going to
01:11:49
Fletcher Challenge and so I went to
01:11:51
Fletcher's and you know sixth floor and
01:11:53
we're we're there and and I'm 18 mate
01:11:56
like I'm totally out of my depth and I'm
01:11:59
thinking dad is as well you know we sit
01:12:01
in the reception and then in 60 so I'll
01:12:03
be with you in a minute and you know you
01:12:04
want a cup of tea and all that sort of
01:12:05
stuff which is I'm just shooting myself
01:12:06
you know walking and John Hart says to
01:12:09
my dad
01:12:10
um
01:12:11
you know I think your son's got some
01:12:13
real potential and I'd like him to pay
01:12:14
for Auckland bees on on Saturday in this
01:12:16
world 15 game that we're playing and I'm
01:12:19
going yes how good is that you know I'm
01:12:22
going to be playing for the Auckland
01:12:23
bees and dad said my son won't be
01:12:25
playing for the Beast and I go I'm
01:12:27
looking at him I'm going Dad this is
01:12:29
John Hart like he's walking coach like
01:12:31
what are you talking about
01:12:32
and dad said
01:12:34
um if he plays for the bees and he makes
01:12:36
a mistake he'll never be good enough if
01:12:38
he plays for the a side
01:12:40
and he makes a mistake it's just a
01:12:42
mistake
01:12:48
deal done
01:12:50
[ __ ] and there was the Auckland side was
01:12:53
a hell of a hell of a good top side at
01:12:54
that time yeah and then there must have
01:12:56
been intimidating as [ __ ] turning out
01:12:57
what how's this is another dad's story
01:12:59
so I am [ __ ] myself right I'm about
01:13:01
to go to my first training room all
01:13:03
right so you've got Andy Hayden uh Joe
01:13:06
Stanley uh Gary whetton
01:13:10
and uh I'm shooting myself sit down I'm
01:13:13
sure myself and he goes um
01:13:16
kilo ham kilo bunch and a kilosevelties
01:13:19
and I went what you want me to get an
01:13:21
order to get this [ __ ] cut me a killer
01:13:23
here cut me a kilo back okay uh lunch
01:13:25
and get a kilo so
01:13:28
I'm assuming myself there was a bit of
01:13:31
fill an order and so I fill the order
01:13:33
and I put it in HD
01:13:37
it said
01:13:39
take it to training and at the end of
01:13:40
training you open that up on the table
01:13:42
and they won't give a [ __ ] about whether
01:13:43
you train well or not they'll want you
01:13:45
back on Thursday that's so good
01:13:48
my train like [ __ ] obviously because I'm
01:13:51
so so nervous
01:13:52
they're getting a free thing yeah yeah
01:13:55
and um and I pulled it out after after
01:13:58
training and mate the boys just hoeing
01:14:00
into it you know I see you Thursday JK
01:14:02
but then after a month dad came to me
01:14:04
and said boy if you're not good enough
01:14:05
to start training without the ham
01:14:07
luncheon you can start I'm going to
01:14:09
start taking it out of your wages
01:14:11
how good is that yeah I'm guessing there
01:14:13
was no uh nutritionist back then as well
01:14:15
so lunch and after a session was
01:14:17
perfectly fine unbelievable unbelievable
01:14:19
and then um so then at the India rugby
01:14:21
you had a couple of um very successful
01:14:22
years in the Warriors you're like the
01:14:24
top try scorer one year yeah I had a
01:14:26
great I had a really great time I didn't
01:14:27
think I was that good at rugby league to
01:14:29
be fair
01:14:30
um but it was just this amazing time in
01:14:32
my life I um I was an amateur right
01:14:36
playing rugby union and trying to go to
01:14:38
Italy and make money and and I was
01:14:39
probably a little bit one I don't have
01:14:41
any regrets but one of the things that
01:14:43
happened later on in my career is I
01:14:44
probably should have changed position
01:14:45
you know I was getting a bit tired a bit
01:14:47
grumpy and I needed some extra
01:14:50
challenges and I was just coming out of
01:14:52
my mental health and you know there's
01:14:54
some things that I should have done that
01:14:55
I'd ever did but
01:14:57
um going to the Warriors was just this
01:14:59
new lease of life I just had an absolute
01:15:01
ball I trained as a professional got
01:15:03
paid as a professional and it was just
01:15:05
this great two years of my life
01:15:07
um can you remember what the money was
01:15:09
this was like 2005 2006 well I turned it
01:15:12
down the first time so it was 250 000.
01:15:15
back then which is a lot of money and I
01:15:18
said no especially a lot of money if you
01:15:20
haven't been earning much yeah exactly I
01:15:21
mean I had massive
01:15:22
message yeah 29 and
01:15:24
had my first kid and you know like so I
01:15:27
would have been finishing rugby with not
01:15:29
knowing what I was going to do and and
01:15:32
um I always remember I turned it down
01:15:33
and then every single night before I
01:15:36
went to sleep I'd say what if
01:15:38
what if what if I could make anything
01:15:40
and I remember back then
01:15:42
um Michael Jordan had gone from
01:15:44
basketball to softball baseball yeah
01:15:47
yeah and I read an article and he said
01:15:50
I don't want to have water for my life
01:15:52
and I was lying in bed that night and I
01:15:55
said to my wife I don't have water for
01:15:57
my life I don't care if I fail I'm going
01:15:58
to do this so I rang the back and I said
01:16:00
I'd love to have you JK but the price
01:16:02
has changed 150 Grand now all right oh
01:16:05
really yeah that delay cost you a handy
01:16:07
yeah it cost me a big handy but it
01:16:09
doesn't really matter at the time
01:16:10
because and then
01:16:16
and then it really opened up my my
01:16:20
um willingness to keep playing and then
01:16:22
I went to Japan as a rugby player for
01:16:24
three years which was just an amazing
01:16:27
time in my life you know I said I'd
01:16:29
never go I don't know why but I said you
01:16:32
know I'd never go and live in Japan
01:16:33
Never Say Never because it was
01:16:35
absolutely amazing I had this amazing
01:16:37
time and finished playing rugby 35. what
01:16:42
a career
01:16:43
it was a great fun man it was just
01:16:45
really really good
01:16:46
I feel very very fortunate and this is
01:16:49
this is one of the things I'm really
01:16:51
concerned about
01:16:52
you know and you're passionate about you
01:16:54
running
01:16:55
I'm really concerned that we are going
01:16:57
in our schools we're starting to have
01:16:59
academies of this and academies of
01:17:01
theirs and academies and kids are
01:17:03
failing at 13 if they don't make the
01:17:05
rugby Academy Soccer Academy or the
01:17:06
running team that is [ __ ] we should
01:17:08
be able to play anything because sport
01:17:10
is for life it's only three percent of
01:17:13
people who end up being a professional
01:17:15
rugby directly yeah but if you go to
01:17:17
London tomorrow and you join a rugby
01:17:18
club you'll have friends and a job
01:17:20
within two days you know as a runner I
01:17:23
bet you've gone to Madrid and ended up
01:17:25
running with a Spanish guy who you never
01:17:27
met before and had it made sense yeah
01:17:28
that's great that's great that's a great
01:17:30
Community yeah it's a sense of community
01:17:31
yeah
01:17:40
maintain as new zealanders you know it's
01:17:42
really interesting was it the was it the
01:17:46
um the was it Norway the team that won
01:17:48
the most
01:17:49
Winter Olympic Golds they don't let you
01:17:52
can play whatever you like to you're 18
01:17:54
and then you get
01:17:55
computer right and so I think New
01:17:56
Zealand needs to get back to saying that
01:17:58
sport whatever it is is a way of life
01:18:01
yeah it's a good way of looking at it I
01:18:03
mean um yeah I've never been a
01:18:05
particularly fast runner or anything but
01:18:06
I but I just love it and the um I know
01:18:09
it's running for me but I think the
01:18:10
mental health benefits that anyone can
01:18:12
get from any form of movement just you
01:18:14
know can't be underestimated it's
01:18:15
massive right well as part of my um part
01:18:18
of my sex pillars but the interesting
01:18:21
thing for me and this is when I talk
01:18:22
about
01:18:23
the amount of inputs we have into our
01:18:25
life right
01:18:27
so the pressure that's on our youngsters
01:18:30
so have you ever seen a fat bastard and
01:18:33
a photo on the wall of the
01:18:37
job no no everyone's perfect right yeah
01:18:39
absolutely you're right perfect that's
01:18:42
[ __ ] right so I I talk about the
01:18:46
most important thing about
01:18:48
whatever you do is you just move right
01:18:51
you love running I'm walking I go
01:18:54
surfing you know it's not about I say to
01:18:56
people I don't know what to eat I don't
01:18:58
know whether to be a eat the whole
01:18:59
garden eat a cow be who your Palio or
01:19:02
Julio I don't know anymore so effort
01:19:05
I'll just have a packet of chips and a
01:19:06
glass of wine yeah because we've got all
01:19:08
this information all the time yeah yeah
01:19:10
yeah right yeah but
01:19:12
um the most important thing for me is
01:19:13
that every single day I think nutrition
01:19:16
is really really important and you
01:19:18
should learn what's best for you and
01:19:21
then I think the other thing that's
01:19:22
really important is just to move if it's
01:19:23
running you know if it's walking if it's
01:19:26
surfing or whatever it is but moving
01:19:28
every single day is a mental health
01:19:30
exercise yeah for me hey I've taken up
01:19:34
so much of your time but I can't thank
01:19:35
you enough for sharing and I know that a
01:19:36
lot of people are going to get a lot of
01:19:37
good takeaways from this it's been
01:19:39
really good like you've you've done the
01:19:40
work and uh I I think I probably can
01:19:43
speak safely on behalf of most of New
01:19:45
Zealand when I can say thank you
01:19:47
um for everything you've done you you
01:19:49
were the first one that took the leap of
01:19:50
faith like you've you've paved the way
01:19:52
for any conversation I think that
01:19:55
happens in this country around mental
01:19:56
health these days you probably downplay
01:19:57
that but you really have yeah thank you
01:20:00
but I think back at you because
01:20:03
um you know I couldn't help but follow
01:20:05
your journey because you're in the
01:20:07
public eye you're a very successful you
01:20:10
know had a very public breakup but I
01:20:13
think both of you came out and spoke
01:20:14
about your mental health and that
01:20:16
journey and I think that that gives
01:20:18
everyone else the permission right um
01:20:20
and I think if we're in a situation of
01:20:25
um
01:20:26
I don't know what you'd call it we're
01:20:28
fortunate because of the ability that
01:20:30
God or whoever you want to believe gave
01:20:32
us we can use that platform to just tell
01:20:36
people it's normal because we're just
01:20:37
normal right you and I just normal yeah
01:20:38
yeah right so yeah thank you man for
01:20:41
carrying on the torch your turn
01:20:44
lastly before we head stop on this um
01:20:47
the next 20 years of your life what's
01:20:49
what's it looking like
01:20:50
much of a goal set or a planner no no
01:20:53
you see what comes your way yeah no I um
01:20:56
uh yeah I want to reach 100 million
01:20:58
people and save a hundred thousand lives
01:20:59
with the with with the business that I'm
01:21:02
in at the moment called Groove
01:21:03
um I think if we can make
01:21:05
well-being a successful business and
01:21:08
that workplaces realize that it's the
01:21:10
most important thing they do around
01:21:11
productivity and retention of good
01:21:12
people then we will definitely change
01:21:14
the world right because even the most
01:21:15
cynical [ __ ] as a leader knows that
01:21:18
has to look after them into half of
01:21:20
their people and then the second thing I
01:21:21
want to do is make sure that we educate
01:21:23
our tamariki to have a mental health
01:21:25
plan for what the world throws at them
01:21:27
and I think it's like English maths and
01:21:29
science we've got to teach our kids that
01:21:31
um but I don't think too far ahead I
01:21:33
just try and be the best meet today
01:21:36
um I the covert has been hard on me from
01:21:39
a from a
01:21:41
um I have half my life in Italy a lot of
01:21:43
great friends haven't seen my son
01:21:45
for a few years some really buoyant
01:21:48
about the World opening and being able
01:21:50
to to get out and and see the things
01:21:53
that I love to do but really I don't I
01:21:56
don't think too far ahead I think um a
01:21:59
friend once told me if you want to make
01:22:01
God laugh tell them your plans so so the
01:22:04
best thing for me is to be great today
01:22:06
I've got some got some goals that I'd
01:22:08
like to achieve but don't think too hard
01:22:10
about them yeah I'm brilliant well best
01:22:12
of luck with everything I'm sure it's
01:22:13
gonna work out just great like
01:22:14
everything else has in your life cool
01:22:16
and I've just released a nice Pinot Noir
01:22:18
that you might enjoy I made one for my
01:22:21
father-in-law he passed during covert
01:22:23
and I've released it today it's a Pinot
01:22:27
Noir I made in New Zealand but it's got
01:22:29
a lot of what I think Italian tastes
01:22:31
would be what sort of red do you like oh
01:22:33
I love my Pinos yeah okay I love my
01:22:35
Pinos but then again even the heavy ones
01:22:38
I'll never turn down a Malbec or a yeah
01:22:43
never met a red I didn't like there you
01:22:45
go I'll get you a bottle thanks JK
01:22:47
really appreciate everything you do and
01:22:49
have done pleasure thank you
