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A Helmet Saved His Life - Sam Clarke was Shot in the Head During 2023 Auckland Shooting

July 17, 2024 / 01:17:00

Video

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[Music]

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Sam Clark welcome to my podcast cheers

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thank you app you're a little um a

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little nervous this is your first

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podcast experience yeah oh I'd be yeah

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lying if I'm lying if I'm not not like I

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was saying to you before sort of not my

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personality to talk about myself

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especially in deep um or in sort of more

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lengthy conversations I'm more the kind

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of guy that just sit around and like to

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listen when when people talk but yeah

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definitely taking something out of the

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um out of my comfort zone new experience

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so yeah yeah cuz you you messaged me um

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on Instagram maybe a couple of months

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ago and we were just going backwards and

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forwards and uh you had some kind words

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about some previous episodes I've done

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that sort of helped you and then um I

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suggested that you'd be a good podcast

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guest uh you said [ __ ] off pretty

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much a little bit

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polter and then uh after after chatting

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about it with your wife uh you came back

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and said yeah maybe give it a go yeah

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yeah it was after I listened to your

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episode with um jenet redond and I think

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that um that afternoon I'd sort of come

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back from a psychologist appointment and

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um was not in the not in a good head

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space just feeling a bit [ __ ] and then

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listening to your episode where you sort

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of opened up and um yeah it was openly

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vulnerable sort of just gave me a bit of

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perspective of what I was going through

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it's normal and it's and it's okay so

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just thought that I'd flick your message

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just to say there was a appreciated um

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but yeah I did

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decline no no was it was um the message

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was really really kind and it's great to

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um have you here today and um what you

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have been through is um anything but

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normal um and we can get into this in as

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as much or as little detail as as what

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you're comfortable with but um yeah 20th

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of July

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2023 take it take us back to that that

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that day that morning um yeah so we were

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I was working on on this it was about

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7:20 in the morning and I was

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working um on this work group called opt

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which was part of this tactical response

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model in the

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police um and I remember that we were in

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the office and we which is we were out

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manal so traffic was shocking that time

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of the morning and we heard on the radio

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that a job had come in for a on Queen

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Street seen with a um shotgun and that

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was all the initial information so we um

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started to K up um ready to deploy to it

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um then we got we got updates that he

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had gone into a construction site and

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shots had been fired and I think someone

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had been um H at that

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point

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um sorry and yeah so we we floyed um we

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were a team of

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four um came in F rush hour traffic

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basically the whole way into the into

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the City and I remember um hearing on

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the radio that U there were more shots

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um more shots going off in the

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construction

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site and that there had been uh more

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people injured and at some stage I think

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police had already been shot at from the

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offender

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um yeah so

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we we got in there um and I remember

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thinking the whole way in that you know

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oh we're we're fighting rush hour

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traffic to get in there you know you're

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we're not going to get there in time you

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know he's police already front line guys

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and girls are already there um we just

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they're going to deal with it you know

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before we sort of get there for the not

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the good parts but for the to actually

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see some bit of action um

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but it kept unfolding we started get a

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little bit closer and started realizing

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okay we might actually be on here and

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have to really get stuck into work

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um yes so we pulled up um got all our um

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kit out I was driving and I remember

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when we pulled up or just before we

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pulled up the rest of the boys started

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chucking on their helmets their

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ballistic helmets and obviously I was

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driving so I couldn't couldn't put my

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one on and when we pulled up one of the

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boys just chucked me um a random helmet

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cuz mine was in the squad room at the

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time so it was someone else's

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helmet and I remember getting out of the

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car and looking at looking at my helmet

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and you could hear at this point

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gunshots going off in the construction

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site um which was down on one one Queen

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Street I think it was yes so you could

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hear gunshots going off and I remember

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looking at my helmet and having kind of

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like that feeling inside of [ __ ] I

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actually probably don't have time to

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actually put this on you know there's a

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guy in the construction site that's

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actively killing people or trying to

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attempt in to kill people and injure

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them um and just thought nah [ __ ] it

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I'll take the sorry I swear a bit that's

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all right that's a podcast I yeah so

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remember looking my helmet and thinking

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now I'll just take 20 seconds I'll just

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take 20 seconds to put it on um and what

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what ended up being fine cuz by that

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point the the rest of the boys had gone

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to the back in of the car and St and

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pull out some like first aid um kits and

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I think one one of the guys originally

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tried to pull out the shield and thought

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now bug of this um the defender was up

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on like level 18 so he I'm not carrying

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this all the way up so chucked it

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back um yeah went into the construction

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site I think when we got there he was on

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level it was either around level 18 or

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over 15 around there so we

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started

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um going up basically with our steer

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drills and and I remember you know there

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was um blood like from arterial bleeds

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when they bleed they squirt out so there

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was blood on the side of the um concrete

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slabs in the staircase there were empty

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shotgun casings on the on the

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staircase um there were victims that

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were running down that had um like

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gunshot wounds to their hands and arms

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um we just had to bypass them you know

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sort of our priority is to stop the

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offending and then then we look to

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provide medical assistance where we can

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mhm um yes we got ended up getting all

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the way up to level 20 um where some of

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the other guys that were on Squad um

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sorry on the

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um had already chased him up there and

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he had gone into like a elevator two

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elevator shafts that were under

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construction

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um so the decision was made that okay we

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would drop down two levels to try and

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isolate him in those shafts so that

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essentially he couldn't get back down

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past us back out onto another floor and

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keep shooting and looking for more

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victims essentially

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um like it's a lot going on very quickly

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yeah oh yeah it sort of took like we I

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remember we left manal at 7 from memory

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it was about 7:30 in the morning um and

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you're fighting rush hour traffic so

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really you're probably not getting in

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there to about maybe 20 minutes 30

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minutes so he had a lot of time to do

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some damage I mean once once you and the

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rest of your AOS arm Defender Squad

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mates are in there it's like Split

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Second decisions isn't it oh 100% um and

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I got to take my hat off to you know the

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AL for commander who ran that ran the

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job you know he's he's the one that's

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we're just

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executing his decisions essentially and

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following orders yeah and and he's

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having to make them um within yeah like

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you say a split second that no we are

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going to go down two floors um to try

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and isolate them so a few of of us went

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down back down from level 20 down to

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18 um and there were

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four like um plywood doors that were ped

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locked shut so where the elevator doors

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will eventually go they were just a

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hinged piece of plywood essentially

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temporary door and there were four of

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them lined up so we started to work on

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the first one just to start breaching

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them open so that we could properly

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contain him the

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offender um so I helped out on the the

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first door that was there um we breached

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that and it was just an open um

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essentially an open Elevator Shaft so

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there was nothing inside it just dropped

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straight down um and at this point I

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could

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see for some reason they we missed two

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doors and went to the last door in the

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row um and I could see two of the boys

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already working on that door so um

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usually with like with our drills you

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want three three people there ideally so

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I pushed over um I pushed over to where

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they were and we started to get to work

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on that

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door

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um yeah so the door we breached the door

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and essentially as the doors opened with

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we all we've been looking at is like a

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pitch black um Pitch Black space and

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basically as soon as that door has

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opened um two gunshots have gone off

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from the the offender

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um and I just remember feeling a massive

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thump to the side of my head and my com

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set falling off so it was then it was

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dangling down my back um so obviously

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that kind of knocked me backwards and

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all my ass a little bit um one of the

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Dog Handlers came around and grabbed

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kind of grabbed me around the corner and

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which just took off my helmet um checked

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everything over checked that my head was

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all good there was no obvious blood or

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anything um yeah put the helmet back on

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and came back around the corner to keep

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doing the job with the boys oh so you're

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back to work yeah yeah but but at that

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point there was there was a few other

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obviously once we had been shot a few of

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the boys had pushed past us and had put

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themselves in a position where they were

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doing the work basically at that point

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but came back around to join the stack

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with them um to be useful where possible

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and

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yeah yeah you um

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what what does it feel like when you get

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shot in a ballistics helmet with a with

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with a bullet um I wouldn't recommend it

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that um I mean you you you've done um

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you you do Iron Man events and you've

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done trions you must have fallen off a

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bike before is it similar to falling off

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a bike with a helmet on or is it does

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does it feel like someone's punched you

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in the it feels like someone's yeah like

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you've just clocked one to the side of

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the head basically so you sort of like a

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bit

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bewildered yeah yeah enough to like make

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you sort of stumble backwards um um a

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little bit and the helmet definitely did

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its job

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um yeah it's not something I'd i'

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recommend I think all I had in the end

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was a bit of a mild concussion which is

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what I walked away with thankfully um

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yeah because I I looked this up

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yesterday just to um remind myself of um

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yeah what happened that day so the

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shooter was a a 24-year-old who was on

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um um electronically mon monitored bail

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with permission to go to work so I went

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work in commercial Bay with a with a G

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gun as we know um killed two of his

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colleagues uh wounded seven other people

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including a police officer and then um

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killed himself so the police officer

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that was injured that's not you so two

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of us got shot right yeah so um one of

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us and I I sort of don't want to talk

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about um he's a good mate and sort of

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his recounter the events is sort of his

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story story to tell but yeah so he he

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received more physical injuries um but

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we were both at that door at the same

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time and he got one shot and I got the

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other one essentially right yeah so so

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when we read that report like one one

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police officer injured like it doesn't

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count the block that got a shot in the

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head with it shot to the shot to the

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head but it was concussion just a

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concussion yeah doesn't count to the

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stats

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um then when when do you find out that

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the um the the gunman has killed

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himself um so obviously we I was there

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once um once it all kind of eventuated

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and resolved itself um but yeah he just

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heard him essentially just um shoot

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himself basically and then there was a

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bit of a delay just voice appealing them

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the the guys did a good job with um

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after we had both of us had been shot

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there was a bit of a delay so they start

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voice peeling them out to try and not

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just rush in and take action you know

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they still had their thought okay let's

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try an alternative means um yeah so

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arrest them yeah yeah

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but must be a crazy chaotic environment

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like just shouting

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yelling yeah like you could hear um when

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we're going up the staircase originally

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at the staircase it was 15 flights or so

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20 flights to go up but yeah you can

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hear people screaming for help and

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victims in the um in the stairwell that

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you know had gunshot wounds and and you

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can't help them you know because you're

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still someone that's um actively

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offending and that's our priority

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unfortunately is to bypass the injured

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and deal with the offender neutralize

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him whether it's take him into custody

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or whatever um before we can actually

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look at providing first aid um yeah so

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then so so after it reaches its um

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conclusion

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um what what happens then so you s sit

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down and have a have a coffee or would

00:15:07

have been nice um n so we had to I had a

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um throbbing headache and was felt like

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dizzy for about a couple hours um but

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essentially us myself and a couple of

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the others that were involved in the

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critical ending aspect of it um we kind

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of got put to the side

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and kind of not really to talk to sort

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of any of the other guys that were

00:15:35

coming and going just from like

00:15:36

investigation purposes so we kind of got

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put to the side and essentially what

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happens is um the team gets formed up

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and they clear the whole entire

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construction site so that took 4 hours

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that we were stuck up on level 18 and

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they had to clear 18 floors down to make

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sure that there's definitely no more

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offenders there's the one hiding um

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that's injured or um yeah so we I

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essentially had to wait the 4 hours till

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I could get get out and um to the

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ambulance and I just remember being

00:16:12

busting for a piss the whole

00:16:15

time um I was there's nowhere there's

00:16:18

nowhere to go can you go on your helmet

00:16:21

yeah yeah well that was already right

00:16:23

off so as well um did did you did you

00:16:26

have your phone on you are you able to

00:16:28

yeah so get hold of your wife my wife

00:16:30

was ringing me

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um and how how I handled I mean she

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tells it a lot better than than I do but

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how I handled that whole situation

00:16:41

afterwards and her words could have been

00:16:43

a lot better um yeah so she rang me once

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and I'm I was looking at her and this

00:16:49

was when we kind of seen to the side I

00:16:51

had throbbing headache and um sort of

00:16:54

coming round to actually what how

00:16:57

processing what happened I was yeah yeah

00:17:01

um and so she's ringing me and I it it

00:17:05

popped up and I remember looking at her

00:17:06

and thinking [ __ ] I can't answer this

00:17:08

you know and I felt like at that point I

00:17:10

wanted to cry um just sort of seing her

00:17:13

her pop up and I was like thinking [ __ ]

00:17:16

how am I going to explain this one you

00:17:19

know like um so I didn't answer that

00:17:21

call and then she rang again I didn't

00:17:23

answer that one meanwhile she's

00:17:25

panicking more and more with every call

00:17:27

yeah and and and she she says it a lot a

00:17:30

lot better but she had she had no idea

00:17:32

what was going on she had dropped out

00:17:34

door off at daycare and her phone was

00:17:35

blowing up saying this I hope Sam's all

00:17:38

good and had a whole bunch of messages

00:17:41

and she's like I don't even know what's

00:17:43

happening so then naturally she starts

00:17:45

pening and it wasn't once she read

00:17:47

started looking online and she had saw

00:17:49

what had unfolded she then tried

00:17:51

reaching out but I ended up just texting

00:17:53

her um and this is the bit that I could

00:17:56

have handled better um they just said I

00:17:59

I'm all good um I got hit in the helmet

00:18:04

but I'm

00:18:05

fine and that was all I

00:18:08

left was that was all I lefted it very

00:18:11

economical with your words yeah yeah

00:18:12

yeah and she say what do you mean like

00:18:15

hit with what a bullet or Capal and I

00:18:18

was like yeah yeah but I'm

00:18:20

fine um but yeah we've we've talked

00:18:23

about that and how to if if it was to

00:18:26

happen again how to how to handle handle

00:18:29

it a little bit better but it's a

00:18:30

surreal situation isn't it Ian you're in

00:18:32

shock she's panicked yeah yeah like I

00:18:35

don't know how else do you explain it

00:18:37

like yeah I did get hit but I'm fine um

00:18:41

without going into can't sit there and

00:18:43

tex out everything that's happened you

00:18:45

know no blow by blow yeah there's yeah

00:18:48

time for that later on I guess but you

00:18:49

can understand it from her perspective

00:18:50

but also I can understand it from yourp

00:18:52

100% yeah I'd be freaking out too if if

00:18:55

I was in her shoes you know so when so

00:18:58

when when you when you um get reunited

00:19:01

with her later that day what happened

00:19:03

you burst into tears what are you um so

00:19:05

I ended up having to go through the

00:19:06

hospital right so once we came out of

00:19:09

the site four or so hours later went

00:19:12

through the hospital and they just did

00:19:13

some like CT scans on my head just to

00:19:15

make sure that there wasn't any

00:19:17

permanent damage and it just to confirm

00:19:19

basically it was just a concussion um so

00:19:21

she ended up coming into hospital to

00:19:24

meet me there

00:19:27

um yeah I don't I I actually can't

00:19:29

really remember what I kind of felt at

00:19:31

the time I think I was probably still

00:19:33

had that mess of adrenaline dump and

00:19:37

um yeah I I remember her like walking in

00:19:40

to the hospital and being like sort of

00:19:43

feeling grateful and thankful that she

00:19:44

was there but the yeah like wasn't

00:19:48

overly emotional I think it was just cuz

00:19:50

I still had that mess of adrenaline dump

00:19:52

from the whole cortisol levels must have

00:19:54

been through the [ __ ] ro oh yeah yeah

00:19:57

I remember not sleeping that night and

00:19:59

um just cuz you're playing it over and

00:20:02

over and over again

00:20:04

um

00:20:08

yeah yeah so so armed Defender Squad um

00:20:11

so you have the um the bulletproof

00:20:13

helmet on which saved your life what

00:20:15

else have on do you have like a a

00:20:16

bulletproof chest vest or so we on the

00:20:19

team that we were working we were just

00:20:22

in normal Blues like like the normal

00:20:25

police that you see so we essentially

00:20:27

the trm model was created after conal

00:20:31

Matt hunt was murdered um as a a way to

00:20:37

essentially try and provide more support

00:20:39

to the front line so we were a work

00:20:42

group that had

00:20:44

four um AOS members on it but we were

00:20:49

dressed them out Blues to kind of to

00:20:51

essentially you the idea behind it so

00:20:54

that you could think you looking at a

00:20:57

normal Frontline p PST cop but you've

00:20:59

actually got four AOS qualified guys

00:21:03

there so that day we were just working

00:21:05

in our in our normal blue uniform but

00:21:08

yeah we so we had our bass on and we

00:21:10

just used to carry our helmets in the

00:21:12

car in case we went to a job that

00:21:15

escalated at least we had the re some

00:21:18

resources to do what we needed to while

00:21:21

we waited for the rest of the squad to

00:21:23

come out so presumably it was like a

00:21:26

wild shot rather than a targeted shot so

00:21:28

it could have easily got you in the in

00:21:30

the chest in the in the arm yeah

00:21:32

essentially so I think we ended up

00:21:34

thankfully we ended up being about a

00:21:37

meter and a half 2 m away from him

00:21:40

behind the door and i' still have never

00:21:42

seen him like it's still like last thing

00:21:44

I remember was just looking at a black

00:21:47

um black um space essentially um so it

00:21:52

was a blessing in disguise that both of

00:21:54

us were really close so the helmet took

00:21:58

the full impact um so essentially the

00:22:00

pallets are kind of St in like a wng

00:22:02

that comes out so they're in a shotgun

00:22:04

shell they're yeah a bunch of pallets

00:22:07

basically and because we were so close

00:22:08

they didn't have time to spread um

00:22:11

whereas I think if we were maybe a oh I

00:22:13

was maybe a couple meters 2 3 m back

00:22:16

that spread probably would have been a

00:22:18

bit wider and probably would have come

00:22:19

down into the neck area

00:22:22

um yeah I think thankfully I know um I

00:22:28

don't know maybe maybe I'm not the

00:22:29

tallest bloke the I think if I was a bit

00:22:32

taller that you know what was up here

00:22:34

could have maybe been down a little bit

00:22:36

lower um what other helmets is there

00:22:39

like a is it like a face guard or is no

00:22:41

there no face guard just literally just

00:22:42

a right just a ballistic helmet that's

00:22:45

just got um they look like um your a Ms

00:22:49

on the side but they're a com set so you

00:22:50

can still it's sound reducing to loud

00:22:54

desile so if a gunshot went off it would

00:22:56

block that out but you could still talk

00:22:59

as normal to each other um but yeah no

00:23:01

face shield um and I wasn't wearing

00:23:04

glasses um at the time either just cuz I

00:23:06

didn't have any

00:23:09

um yeah he was sh there was a lot that

00:23:11

went lucky that day isn't there oh yeah

00:23:14

and I just think back to you know if I

00:23:16

just remember stearing when we arrived

00:23:19

looking at my helmet and thinking

00:23:20

hearing gunshots you could hear people

00:23:22

scream inside for help and you're like

00:23:25

[ __ ] I probably don't have time to put

00:23:27

this on you know but

00:23:29

having I'm just going to take 20 seconds

00:23:31

or 30 seconds whatever it was to put the

00:23:33

helmet on make sure I'm ready to go so

00:23:35

that when we go in I'm as prepared as

00:23:37

possible and yeah thank God I did yeah

00:23:41

so when when uh what happens after that

00:23:44

do you go back to work or did you just

00:23:45

never return to work in your day no so

00:23:47

we um the police actually have a really

00:23:49

good reintegration program yeah um so

00:23:53

immediately after I think they sort of

00:23:54

gives you like oh you can have five I

00:23:56

think it was about 5 days off but at

00:23:58

that point you know you're going to a

00:24:00

psychologist straight away um you're

00:24:03

getting you got medical appointments

00:24:05

just to get the doctors sign off um got

00:24:09

meetings with the lawyers obviously

00:24:11

there's a criminal investigation aspect

00:24:13

of it as well um to figure out what

00:24:16

actually happened so we the association

00:24:19

kind of set us up with um yes you get

00:24:22

into talk to a lawyer just to make sure

00:24:25

what the statement that you're going to

00:24:26

give is is all it off and appropriate

00:24:31

essentially um so that was about 5 days

00:24:34

and I think after that 5 days I I went

00:24:38

back and and asked for more days off cuz

00:24:42

I kind of didn't really have a break

00:24:44

afterwards you know we had all these

00:24:45

appointments had to go see the

00:24:47

psychologist doctors lawyers

00:24:49

appointments you know everyone's

00:24:50

checking in on you the commissioner of

00:24:52

the police was um ringing to check in um

00:24:56

the guys on just that you work with

00:24:59

always Chicken in so I didn't really

00:25:00

feel like I had that break not really

00:25:04

not really a break so I said to my like

00:25:06

I just oh can you just just say I need

00:25:08

another I think it was about like six

00:25:10

more days off and at that six days I

00:25:12

just didn't pick up my phone or anything

00:25:14

and actually had six days off seems like

00:25:17

the duty of care from what you're

00:25:18

describing the duty of Care on behalf of

00:25:20

that like the place was really good it

00:25:21

is really good yeah and they and they

00:25:23

don't pressure you to go back either so

00:25:26

they

00:25:27

um they Sorry Kan is distracting me um

00:25:32

they yeah um so yeah their reintegration

00:25:36

program is really good so they sort of

00:25:38

you catch up for a coffee with the

00:25:39

reintegration team and they say like

00:25:42

essentially what do you feel like you

00:25:44

want to do to ease you back into work so

00:25:47

for me I said I wanted to do some um

00:25:51

like just listening to gunshots

00:25:53

again um what else did we do we did some

00:25:58

uh um went back did some shooting and

00:26:01

then just did some shooting in the dark

00:26:03

so sort of just getting in the habit of

00:26:05

chucking on the light doing some

00:26:08

shooting there but they they literally

00:26:09

ease you into it like we started off

00:26:11

with but by the way I'm just going to

00:26:13

pause you there I don't think you

00:26:14

realize how unusual that sentence or

00:26:17

paragraph is like easing back into work

00:26:19

by listening to gunshot noises and

00:26:22

shooting in the dark like it's it's

00:26:24

[ __ ] up yeah it is it is [ __ ] up but

00:26:27

that's the environment that you're

00:26:28

working you know um how how hard was it

00:26:31

to do that stuff at the time it was fine

00:26:35

yeah um at the time it was yeah it was

00:26:39

it was fine like we went to the range

00:26:41

and we um literally stood

00:26:45

outside

00:26:47

and yeah so we stood outside the range

00:26:51

and US listen to someone shooting inside

00:26:54

and then you get closer to the door and

00:26:56

you listen to it and then they open the

00:26:57

door to the range and you listen to the

00:26:59

gunshots and they'll just shoot and you

00:27:02

just kind of make your way closer and

00:27:04

closer till you're standing next to the

00:27:06

operator that's shooting just to expose

00:27:07

you to it again um and then you take

00:27:10

your ear M off if you want to um yeah so

00:27:14

they really ease you back into and

00:27:16

they're very open to like whatever you

00:27:20

feel like you need to do they'll make it

00:27:22

happen you know um well it's it's such

00:27:25

um such an important job but also such

00:27:27

an unusual job as well yeah yeah it

00:27:30

really is so so when do so you you do go

00:27:32

back to work yeah so I went back um I

00:27:35

went back from this was July and I ended

00:27:38

up leaving in October end of October I

00:27:41

ended up leaving the police so yes I

00:27:43

went back was that July August about 3

00:27:45

months was it your decision to leave or

00:27:48

like a a co-joined decision with your

00:27:49

wife

00:27:52

so looking at it now and this is sort of

00:27:54

like the I even though me and her have

00:27:57

had really good conversations about it

00:27:59

and talked about and I apologized to her

00:28:01

with the way I kind of dealt with it

00:28:04

afterwards but like once I kind of did

00:28:07

my reintegration and figured okay yeah

00:28:10

there's no triggers that I'm reacting to

00:28:13

or feeling stressed about um it was kind

00:28:16

of back to business as usual you know it

00:28:20

was um it was one of

00:28:23

the still at at the time it was the best

00:28:27

job I've ever been been to you know you

00:28:30

people will be in the police and on AOS

00:28:32

for their whole lives or their whole

00:28:34

career and never get to be exposed to an

00:28:36

incident like that so it's so even it's

00:28:39

that's a horrible thing it's still oh

00:28:41

it's still highlight highlight my you

00:28:43

know that's what we train for you know

00:28:44

all of our training is um worst case

00:28:48

scenario and that is worst case scenario

00:28:50

so it actually get to be deployed and be

00:28:52

at the pointy end of it is sort a

00:28:56

highlight of my career um is that why

00:28:58

you're so BL when you arrive so Blas

00:29:00

about the the helmet because things like

00:29:02

this just don't thankfully don't happen

00:29:04

all that often yeah yeah and yeah

00:29:08

potentially um yeah and it was just kind

00:29:12

of had the equipment there so you just

00:29:14

use it right um but yes I ended up

00:29:16

leaving in October I wasn't leave I

00:29:18

wasn't planning on leaving I was still

00:29:20

enjoying work and I'm happy had some

00:29:24

good jobs after that that we went to and

00:29:26

the confidence was there and there

00:29:28

wasn't any issues but my wife was still

00:29:31

kind of struggling with it a little bit

00:29:33

um like she was

00:29:35

getting like we would get I'd get called

00:29:38

out in the middle of the night and then

00:29:40

she's not sleeping now because she's

00:29:42

stressed well last time he got a call

00:29:44

out he nearly died essentially so

00:29:47

naturally

00:29:48

she's um anxious and her

00:29:52

anxiety's um no good so she was kind of

00:29:55

struggling with with it a little bit and

00:29:58

an opportunity out of the blue popped up

00:30:00

to sort of go do some different work um

00:30:03

that was

00:30:04

just kind of I looked at it as kind of

00:30:08

meant to be and kind of I wasn't looking

00:30:09

for it and it sort of came looking for

00:30:12

me so yeah just talked to Jess about it

00:30:15

and at the time it was the best decision

00:30:18

for both of us I think to to go do

00:30:20

something else yeah cuz you got two two

00:30:22

daughters as well what are the age of

00:30:24

Ages of your daughters uh so at the time

00:30:27

Florence was it was 10 days before her

00:30:30

third birthday and then uh my wife was

00:30:33

pregnant at the time so that didn't help

00:30:35

either

00:30:38

um yeah I'm M I'm I'm um I'm amazed you

00:30:41

went back to work at

00:30:43

all oh that's it's it's hard cuz it's

00:30:47

like like I sort of said it's it's what

00:30:49

we train for you know like that's to be

00:30:52

involved in a job like that was all a

00:30:54

lot of our training was training for a

00:30:56

situation like that and it did feel at

00:30:58

the time it felt like a scenario like

00:31:01

our scenarios in training we we'll have

00:31:03

role players and um depending

00:31:07

on to be hon some of some of the

00:31:09

exercises you know they will get um they

00:31:12

will be running around and screaming at

00:31:14

you and it did it just felt like a

00:31:16

scenario that we're stacked up um at the

00:31:20

car and they said cool scenario begins

00:31:21

and you do your run through and and

00:31:23

that's what it felt like on the day so

00:31:24

it just showed that the training that we

00:31:26

had been doing had prepared us

00:31:28

appropriate for it I think

00:31:30

we we were just set up we just had the

00:31:35

disadvantage essentially so um where the

00:31:38

offend ended up being you know we were

00:31:41

standing in an open construction floor

00:31:44

that had the skyline as a background and

00:31:46

he's in a dark room so the minute that

00:31:48

door opens he's looking he's seeing all

00:31:51

these Silhouettes against the Blue Sky

00:31:53

backdrop and we're steering into a black

00:31:58

room so I don't think it would have

00:32:00

mattered who was at the door or if we

00:32:02

had have done anything different we he

00:32:04

just had the advantage over us basically

00:32:06

and and what we do isn't isn't I don't

00:32:09

want to say bulletproof cuz it wasn't

00:32:11

bulletproof but but it's not that's not

00:32:15

like we take away some of the risk but

00:32:17

you don't take away all of it you know

00:32:18

well there's always going to be some

00:32:19

unnown there isn't there yeah um Al so

00:32:22

so how long had you had you been in the

00:32:23

place and then what's the training

00:32:25

that's involved in becoming a member of

00:32:26

the Armed Defender Squad

00:32:28

um so I joined in

00:32:30

2019 I think graduated

00:32:33

September um and I did my um AOS

00:32:38

selection course

00:32:40

um I think it was it February I think it

00:32:43

was February

00:32:46

2022 so it was yeah it was about a year

00:32:48

and maybe 3 four months in to the job

00:32:51

but that was all I kind of wanted to do

00:32:53

once um once I found out about the AOS n

00:32:58

Defender Squad my whole intention of

00:33:01

joining the police was to go down that

00:33:02

route so once I kind of ticked all the

00:33:05

boxes I needed to on being front line

00:33:08

PST the first selection that came around

00:33:12

I just chucked in my application and

00:33:14

thought buger give it a correct and

00:33:17

what's what's bu give it a correct

00:33:20

what's of what's of trainings involved

00:33:22

with

00:33:23

that um so they do so each district will

00:33:26

do a so each district has their own

00:33:29

Squad so Oakland will run a essentially

00:33:33

a one-day selection process and it's

00:33:35

just soort without giving it all away

00:33:38

that's um there's like some exams

00:33:40

scenarios and physical aspects of it um

00:33:44

like pack work and resilience um

00:33:47

exercises so you do the one- day

00:33:49

selection course and they the Oakland

00:33:52

Squad then will like let's say if

00:33:54

there's 25 people that apply for it and

00:33:57

do the course they might take three or

00:33:59

four that they think are these are the

00:34:00

ones that would want um on our Squad so

00:34:04

then you get sent down to Wellington um

00:34:08

all the districts send down their their

00:34:10

applicants and you do a 4-day selection

00:34:13

course and that one's that one's a bit

00:34:15

more in depth and yeah it's a lot of you

00:34:18

know you're not getting much sleep and

00:34:21

they just really work work you

00:34:24

down mentally and physically and you

00:34:27

know you're not getting too much food

00:34:29

and your sleep's limited and then

00:34:31

they'll put you through scenarios to

00:34:33

make sure that even in that state you're

00:34:35

still making right sound decisions

00:34:38

essentially sounds like a mini sort of

00:34:40

version of like hellick that they have

00:34:42

in the Navy Seals yeah probably not as

00:34:45

as as as hardcore but a lot of it's more

00:34:49

like you want have it's more around your

00:34:52

decision making um because that's a big

00:34:55

aspect of the police you know we not

00:34:58

going out there just trying to kill

00:35:00

people you're trying to actually

00:35:01

preserve life so you have to have make

00:35:03

sound decisions um and they're just

00:35:06

testing you for you could you

00:35:09

could come off a work at night shift and

00:35:14

then just goes off for an hour and then

00:35:15

get a call out and you the expectation

00:35:18

is you're should be making the right

00:35:20

decisions after that and that's what

00:35:22

they do through the selection process is

00:35:24

just basically break you down and then

00:35:27

Chuck you through scenarios to make sure

00:35:30

you don't [ __ ] up too badly yeah were

00:35:33

there any other like memorable jobs or

00:35:34

anything that you're involved with what

00:35:36

does like an average week look like for

00:35:37

an a guy well it's

00:35:40

part-time um so we sort of had our ba so

00:35:44

our kind of our normal jobs and the AOS

00:35:47

was just a part-time gig so there were

00:35:50

there were guys on Squad that were

00:35:51

detectives or had climbed the ranks and

00:35:54

were in management roles or there was us

00:35:56

that were still working front line um

00:35:59

but then when a call out would come in

00:36:01

or a job was planned You' then go to

00:36:03

that um so it's a real real variety of

00:36:08

of people that are on Squad you know you

00:36:10

could someone that you'd be sort of

00:36:13

calling sir and Senior Sergeant but once

00:36:17

they come on to an AOS job and if

00:36:21

they're not running the job and they

00:36:22

just in the stack with you you know

00:36:24

they're you feel like oh we're just the

00:36:26

same you know um yeah so it's kind of

00:36:29

hard to tell to say what it looks like

00:36:31

because it it wasn't fulltime you know

00:36:33

everyone's day to-day looked looked a

00:36:35

lot different to each others and what do

00:36:38

you miss about the

00:36:40

job um anything I I'd be lying if I said

00:36:44

I didn't miss it um I missed

00:36:48

the I missed like every now and then

00:36:51

when I see like the um the Deltas so the

00:36:56

the dog units or or a cop car with its

00:37:00

license arm I'm going to a job you kind

00:37:02

of get that fomo you know you feel like

00:37:04

you're wonder what they're going to and

00:37:06

what you're missing out on but um no I

00:37:10

actually don't miss it as much as I

00:37:12

thought I would but sort of since I've

00:37:15

come out you know yeah kind of realize

00:37:19

kind of did everything that I wanted to

00:37:20

you know I didn't really want to be a

00:37:23

detective or I didn't want to climb the

00:37:25

ranks um I got to see some action so

00:37:28

that my next move was well what's best

00:37:32

to sort of set the family up and it was

00:37:34

probably leaving and going into kind of

00:37:35

like the private sector in corporate

00:37:37

world it's probably quite

00:37:40

um there'll be a strange answer for a

00:37:42

lot of people that you see you see

00:37:44

sirens and you get fomo but to me I

00:37:46

think that's a good answer cuz the

00:37:48

alternative to that is like you you you

00:37:50

go into like pdsd or panic mode or get

00:37:53

all triggered when that happens and

00:37:55

that' be being on high alert like that

00:37:57

would be no no sort of way to live your

00:37:59

life so when did the therapy journey

00:38:01

start um so straight afterwards I was I

00:38:05

was fine um I did my psychologist

00:38:08

appointments and I think I didn't really

00:38:11

I didn't deal with it properly straight

00:38:13

afterwards you just sort of ticking the

00:38:14

boxes or yeah I kind of tick the boxes

00:38:16

and because I was still working in in

00:38:19

that environment you know I had to be in

00:38:20

that mindset of um you know I can't

00:38:24

really let

00:38:26

myself get into that state because if a

00:38:29

job comes up tomorrow I need to be

00:38:31

switched on and ready to perform

00:38:33

essentially um and this was sort of an

00:38:36

area I touched on before not kind of

00:38:39

handling it well with Jess you know like

00:38:41

I'd be like around openly say oh yeah it

00:38:44

was the best job of my life and she's

00:38:46

there you're a [ __ ]

00:38:47

idiot like you nearly you nearly died

00:38:49

and you're hear going on about how was

00:38:52

the best job that you've been to and

00:38:55

like just like so Blas about what

00:38:58

happened without actually taking into

00:39:00

account like she nearly lost everything

00:39:02

you know um and here I was I did nearly

00:39:06

lose everything but it was still I was

00:39:09

doing the job that I like to do and it

00:39:11

was something that I wanted to do um

00:39:12

where she had a lot more to lose so yeah

00:39:15

so it was fine at the beginning um and

00:39:17

then it wasn't until I left and um the

00:39:20

beginning of March and it was was it

00:39:24

yeah it would have been around March and

00:39:25

Guy Forks weekend where guy Fork started

00:39:29

and I just started noticing that I was

00:39:32

starting to get like flashbacks and

00:39:35

starting to have dreams about the

00:39:37

incident um just like about the things

00:39:39

that you saw and yeah the things I saw

00:39:41

and it kept kind of coming back every

00:39:43

time I was hearing um every time I was

00:39:47

hearing like at that time was the

00:39:49

fireworks I could just picture us back

00:39:51

at the door staring at the it just be

00:39:53

like a very clear image of us back there

00:39:57

standing at the door looking at a black

00:39:59

space um getting

00:40:02

shot and at first I was like ah like

00:40:05

whatever it will it will go and classic

00:40:08

just park it um move get on with it um

00:40:13

but it kept kind of going on for a

00:40:14

couple of weeks and then I started

00:40:16

noticing like it wasn't just fireworks I

00:40:19

heard loud bangs or car backfire um or

00:40:23

looking at um looking at construction

00:40:26

sites started to

00:40:28

trigger

00:40:30

um even seeing like at this point our

00:40:33

second daughter was born and sort of

00:40:37

seeing my oldest daughter interacting

00:40:40

with our little one so whether they were

00:40:42

like there was one occasion where there

00:40:44

were um Frankie our our little one was

00:40:47

lying on the ground and Florence was I

00:40:49

just walked in and happened to see

00:40:50

Florence was sitting next to her talking

00:40:53

to her and without even realizing that

00:40:56

kind of triggered me and I just started

00:40:59

feeling like this real tight feeling in

00:41:00

my chest and um Palms were getting

00:41:03

sweaty and that was kind of when it

00:41:06

started to sink in that [ __ ] I could

00:41:08

have like been missing all of this um so

00:41:12

just sort of started to talk to Jess and

00:41:15

just said oh I think I might just go

00:41:16

back to the psychologist just

00:41:19

to just

00:41:21

to get on to it now you know I'd hate

00:41:24

for it to boil up till um when I'm 50

00:41:28

and then it really all comes out and and

00:41:31

I can't control it at that point that

00:41:33

was quite smart rather than just

00:41:34

bottling it up yeah it was I was nervous

00:41:37

as [ __ ] to go you know like I don't know

00:41:40

and I think this is of what I said to

00:41:42

you when I messaged you you know it's

00:41:43

it's embarrassing you know and it

00:41:45

shouldn't be but for us as guys to

00:41:49

actually open up about our feelings and

00:41:51

talk about how we feel which I've never

00:41:53

done never done before you know I talk

00:41:56

to Jess about things but if I didn't

00:41:59

feel like I like really needed to I'd

00:42:02

just kind of gu it would be like oh

00:42:05

well she'll be right even even with your

00:42:08

your partner I think um oh this is a

00:42:10

generalization but I think most guys

00:42:12

it's like you don't want to burden your

00:42:14

partner with it or you don't want them

00:42:15

to worry or Panic so you probably keep

00:42:18

some stuff shielded because you think

00:42:20

you're doing the right thing by them

00:42:22

yeah but you're not no no 100% you're

00:42:24

not yeah yeah so that was um and I

00:42:28

haven't this is like this is the first

00:42:30

time I've really openly talked about it

00:42:33

you know I've talked to my I I

00:42:35

eventually opened up about it to my

00:42:37

parents um and yeah even my mates didn't

00:42:42

really don't really know um it wasn't

00:42:45

until we had a bit of a catch up

00:42:49

um with the guys that were involved in

00:42:51

the incident this was after I'd left the

00:42:53

police and we CAU up with them and I

00:42:54

actually said to them I'm going back to

00:42:56

the like colist I've just started to

00:42:59

notice I'm getting these triggers um and

00:43:01

they were super supportive um well quite

00:43:05

thankful that my team leader on the

00:43:07

day um he's a really good nice guy and

00:43:10

and another one of our team leaders who

00:43:12

sort of runs the squad um right from the

00:43:16

get-go they they've been on squad for a

00:43:19

while so you look up to them and they

00:43:20

were right from the get-go super open

00:43:22

with you know they go to a psychologist

00:43:25

and they highly recommend it and and

00:43:27

keept going on and on about it so that

00:43:29

that made me that without them knowing

00:43:32

that when the trigger started happening

00:43:36

I keept thinking oh yeah well if these

00:43:38

guys um are going and they're happy to

00:43:41

talk to me about it and I look up to

00:43:42

them like it goes it's fine to go well

00:43:46

that's um yeah that's how I ended up

00:43:47

with Janet Redmond on the podcast that

00:43:49

was you talked about she's on the style

00:43:51

Bender movie um and I thought if if

00:43:54

Israel is okay talking about this stuff

00:43:57

um then then it made me feel more sort

00:44:00

of comfortable as well made it seem more

00:44:02

accessible in a way yeah yeah that's

00:44:04

tough though yeah yeah and and I just

00:44:07

sort

00:44:07

of sort of my main reason why and this

00:44:12

is coming out of like even talking about

00:44:14

it is out of my comfort zone you know

00:44:16

but my main um reason for reaching out

00:44:19

and ended up changing my mind with when

00:44:21

I originally said no no to to coming on

00:44:25

was to if I can sort of

00:44:28

encourage one or two of the men and

00:44:31

women that are in the police you know my

00:44:33

my advice would be like it's the [ __ ]

00:44:36

that they're having to go to and deal

00:44:39

with is not normal um and I wish now

00:44:42

when I was

00:44:43

in I took advantage of the the services

00:44:47

that they do offer even if I didn't feel

00:44:49

like I needed to um I if I was to go

00:44:53

back I would have probably um just catch

00:44:56

up with a psychologist even if it was

00:44:59

just once every 3 months just to see if

00:45:03

there's anything that sort of needs to

00:45:04

be dealt with um yeah just front foot it

00:45:08

yeah yeah you've even SE I've picked up

00:45:10

you've seen something um maybe two or

00:45:12

three times in this chat which um to

00:45:14

like to me isn't normal where you talk

00:45:16

about that job as being you like the

00:45:19

best sort of the best job you've you've

00:45:21

ever been on I'm sort of paraphrasing

00:45:22

here there'll be people listening to

00:45:24

this that are probably thinking um you

00:45:26

know how how can he say this when when

00:45:28

this guy killed two of his colleagues

00:45:31

but yeah from your perspective is it is

00:45:33

it because you you know it could have

00:45:35

been a lot worse and you

00:45:37

guys um you guys you guys Steed what

00:45:40

could have potentially been like another

00:45:41

Christ

00:45:42

Church yeah I think well yeah how how do

00:45:45

you explain that yeah it's it's hard to

00:45:47

explain like I think it's because it's

00:45:50

what what you trained for you know like

00:45:55

it was it was our time to like his

00:46:00

actions and what he decided to do we

00:46:02

have no control over you know whether we

00:46:05

win or not um at the end of the day he

00:46:07

was going to go and do that you know so

00:46:09

for us it was we were given the

00:46:12

opportunity to put our training into

00:46:15

into actual use and to deploy um so it's

00:46:19

probably more from that that perspective

00:46:21

you know it was um cuz I remember when

00:46:24

we were driving in I remember being

00:46:26

nervous and and it was it was nerves of

00:46:30

holy [ __ ] it's time to switch on and we

00:46:34

need to perform you know like your

00:46:35

pregame nerves or before you're going to

00:46:38

compete in something you're nervous

00:46:40

because you want to execute and perform

00:46:42

mhm and that was the feeling that we had

00:46:44

was this is what we trained for

00:46:47

um it's it's happening and we now need

00:46:51

to step up and perform on the day um

00:46:56

yeah yeah it's hard it is hard to

00:46:58

explain yeah but I mean I I can yeah I

00:47:01

can I can understand it um I mean it

00:47:04

could have been a lot worse and the fact

00:47:06

that you guys were there so quickly like

00:47:07

I remember that morning clearly I was

00:47:08

running around that way and it was um it

00:47:10

was alarming the whole the whole sort of

00:47:11

Central City was in lockdown yeah the

00:47:13

day of the FIFA World Cup starting yeah

00:47:15

yeah that's right so the timing wasn't

00:47:17

wasn't great um but yeah I don't know

00:47:21

I've got so much respect for the so much

00:47:25

respect for the

00:47:27

Frontline men and women of the police

00:47:30

that also ran into that building because

00:47:31

we weren't the only ones in there you

00:47:33

know before we got there it was your

00:47:36

Frontline staff that ran in there

00:47:39

without

00:47:40

hesitation

00:47:42

to to deal with it you know like they're

00:47:45

the ones

00:47:46

that yeah to me they're the real heroes

00:47:51

in this because they only get limited

00:47:55

training you know whereas we get we are

00:47:59

open to so much more training and it's

00:48:02

expected that we're going to respond to

00:48:05

these instances but for them to not have

00:48:08

the same caliber of training that we get

00:48:10

and to

00:48:11

still run into that building hearing

00:48:14

gunshots as victims and to put

00:48:17

themselves on the line to try and save

00:48:19

those people uh I don't know I just

00:48:22

constantly take my head off head off to

00:48:25

them so what's your relationship with

00:48:27

therapy like now is it an ongoing thing

00:48:29

or are you in so I'm still going um so I

00:48:33

actually go every week so I have been

00:48:34

for last few

00:48:35

months

00:48:37

um yeah definitely still unpacking it um

00:48:41

like soort of

00:48:44

now kind of I don't know on the journey

00:48:49

if my psychologist is listening should

00:48:50

we pleased I threw that word in

00:48:54

there um cuz it's not like me to talk

00:48:56

about me being on a journey or anything

00:48:58

like this did you um did you have to go

00:49:00

through many before you find find the

00:49:01

right one like no I've been with one the

00:49:03

whole time okay yeah I um I I didn't go

00:49:08

through anything um like traumatic or

00:49:10

any sort of like particular triggering

00:49:11

event like you did but um I probably

00:49:14

needed therapy for a long time before I

00:49:16

went to one I don't know why I was so

00:49:17

nervous about it it's you look back and

00:49:19

it's dumb right it's dumb it's like a

00:49:21

personal trainer for your for your head

00:49:23

basically it's nothing to be scared of

00:49:25

but um yeah I was really reluctant and

00:49:27

kept on sort of putting it off it's good

00:49:29

and a lot of people said to me oh you

00:49:31

may go and the first therapist you see

00:49:33

you may not Jael and you may have to try

00:49:35

a couple of others um before you settle

00:49:37

on one so it's good that you found one

00:49:38

straight away yeah she's she's good she

00:49:40

out public CA ways and she's thankfully

00:49:42

she's done a bit of work with the

00:49:43

Defense Force so when I first went to

00:49:45

her I didn't have to explain what my job

00:49:48

was and she also saw my wife and she

00:49:51

does a lot of work with other wives that

00:49:54

are in the military and um so she also

00:49:57

so she knew what what we did and from

00:50:01

Jess's perspective what she probably

00:50:03

would have been dealing with from um the

00:50:06

wife's side of it um so it's just easy

00:50:10

and yeah so it's still work in progress

00:50:13

um a lot more open to talking about it I

00:50:17

still feel embarrassed at times um not

00:50:20

talking about it yeah and I don't know

00:50:22

why you know I think it's you for a for

00:50:26

us

00:50:27

I don't know for a guy to openly be

00:50:29

vulnerable and put his hand up and say

00:50:32

that oh no I do need help to sort of

00:50:34

unpe something um yes very nice feeling

00:50:39

I'm I'm the same it's like the uh the

00:50:41

podcast I did with um Janet Redmond um I

00:50:45

I I didn't even listen to that before

00:50:47

like posting it and sharing it because I

00:50:48

just thought if I if I over analyze it

00:50:50

I'm just not going to share it yes cuz

00:50:51

it's and it shouldn't be but it it it

00:50:53

feels

00:50:54

embarrassing yeah and I don't know what

00:50:56

exactly like what why you pinp put I

00:50:59

think it's just cuz you're

00:51:00

not like I don't know I was you know

00:51:04

you're you're not raised as a man you

00:51:07

know to I just get on with it kind of um

00:51:11

just feels like if you show

00:51:12

vulnerability you don't have your [ __ ]

00:51:13

together which is completely untrue yeah

00:51:16

an AB way to think and I've heard you

00:51:18

talk about it in your other podcast

00:51:20

before you know to actually be

00:51:22

vulnerable it's looked at as a weakness

00:51:24

but it's actually a strength um so but

00:51:27

it's all very well telling yourself to

00:51:29

look at it in that perspective that to

00:51:31

actually believe it um is another story

00:51:34

but yeah so all still working work in

00:51:36

progress um like I said going sort of

00:51:39

every every week or two weeks um find it

00:51:45

helpful yeah there's definitely been

00:51:47

like we've kind of got to like the real

00:51:50

what um Stacy would refer to my

00:51:53

psychologist as the real tumor of it all

00:51:56

now and and a lot of it is around like

00:51:58

closed doors and um which makes sense

00:52:01

right because obviously the the crunks

00:52:04

of the incident was around the closed

00:52:06

door when it all happened so

00:52:08

it's yeah it's just processing every now

00:52:11

and then I I'm finding that I'll walk

00:52:13

past or in in the house I'll be one of

00:52:17

our doors will be closed and it'll be

00:52:18

dark behind it and I feel I start

00:52:22

looking at the door and looking well if

00:52:23

the door opens this way I'm exposed to

00:52:26

it so I start to feel quite panicky and

00:52:30

and get a bit anxious around it

00:52:34

um yeah so that's sort of what we're

00:52:36

working through at the moment but she

00:52:38

always says that we're we're we're

00:52:41

making progress so just take a word for

00:52:43

it yeah are you um are you proud of

00:52:46

yourself and how far you've come in the

00:52:47

past year yeah I am actually yeah yeah

00:52:51

um like I never would have thought I'd

00:52:53

be in this position of openly talking

00:52:57

about like my feelings or um sort of how

00:53:02

the incident has impacted me

00:53:04

psychologically um so I was think of

00:53:08

probably sort of like just growing up a

00:53:10

little bit um with it

00:53:14

yeah yeah that's really cool it's cool

00:53:18

it's a yeah and what about your wife is

00:53:20

she proud of you she forgiven you yeah

00:53:22

yeah yeah she's forgiv me now and we and

00:53:24

I and I've gone like afterwards we've

00:53:27

had really good conversations since and

00:53:29

I've apologized to her and um she's been

00:53:33

super super supportive through this

00:53:36

whole thing and actually came with me um

00:53:39

we went

00:53:41

back uh would have been a few weeks ago

00:53:44

now um maybe about four four weeks ago

00:53:46

we went we actually went back to the

00:53:48

site me and her which was um who is just

00:53:53

just Jess and I okay um yeah so so this

00:53:57

there was probably a good good bit of

00:54:00

exposure therapy and that was sort of

00:54:01

once I started to her I said that was my

00:54:03

goal I wanted to I wanted to go back we

00:54:06

I had been back so immediately after the

00:54:09

shooting um we probably a couple weeks

00:54:13

after we actually went back to the site

00:54:14

once it was all cleaned up and but at

00:54:16

that stage I sort of was so Blas about

00:54:20

the impact that it was actually having

00:54:22

on me that it was fine um so it was

00:54:25

actually quite a big

00:54:26

since IID started getting my triggers

00:54:29

and going back to the psychologist to

00:54:32

actually actually go back so I was

00:54:34

finding that I was purposely avoiding

00:54:36

the area you know like would go out we

00:54:39

my wife's 30th birthday we went out for

00:54:42

lunch in the vict and um I remember

00:54:46

saying to her beforehand like I'm [ __ ]

00:54:48

scared you know to like what if we um

00:54:52

see commercial Bay um and the whole time

00:54:56

we were there I just everyone was having

00:54:59

a few drinks and and you start kind of

00:55:03

over over thinking like oh you know

00:55:05

people going to have a few drinks and

00:55:06

then they're going to want to some

00:55:09

reason walk by commercial Bay and I'm

00:55:11

like oh like what am I going to do you

00:55:12

know like I don't want to I don't want

00:55:14

to go back there and um so it was a big

00:55:17

step and I'm proud that um that I did go

00:55:21

back and we went and just had a coffee

00:55:24

me and her we got a coffee and we sat on

00:55:26

a bench um directly outside where we ran

00:55:30

into um into the construction site and

00:55:32

we just sat there for we set a timer for

00:55:34

20 minutes um just sat there

00:55:38

and was vulnerable and talked to each

00:55:41

other and talked it through and um yeah

00:55:45

it was [ __ ] hard yeah there was a um

00:55:49

there was a a little girl we was sitting

00:55:52

on the bench and this there wasn't much

00:55:54

of a gap between the bench and maybe

00:55:56

like a meter and a half to the kind of a

00:55:58

wall that went into the entrance and

00:56:00

this little girl around my daughter's

00:56:02

age

00:56:04

um and I remember saying Jess like oh

00:56:07

that Bloody little kid but she walked

00:56:09

and stood directly in front of the

00:56:11

entrance way where we were sitting and

00:56:13

looking and she's boiling her eyes out

00:56:16

and all I could picture was Jess's here

00:56:19

with Florence and that's where I died

00:56:21

you know and so I yeah broke down and

00:56:25

got upset and I was like why do that

00:56:28

Bloody kid have to stand right there

00:56:32

like I was having a good day go back to

00:56:34

your mom like yeah but yeah just just

00:56:37

process and since I've actually been

00:56:38

back um quite a few times and and have

00:56:41

had no issues and um yeah God you you

00:56:45

love um you you're painting a picture of

00:56:48

someone that loves um like like running

00:56:50

towards the fears a rather than sort of

00:56:53

you cowering or avoiding

00:56:55

them lot about a lot about your

00:56:57

character it's actually something that

00:56:58

we haven't got into as well as your um

00:57:00

your physical stuff like you're you're a

00:57:01

tough [ __ ] um you do Iron Man events

00:57:04

you do 24-hour runs Ultra marathons that

00:57:07

sort of stuff so you love um you putting

00:57:09

yourself in in difficult scenarios and

00:57:11

you willingly putting yourself in the

00:57:13

pain cave so I think I think that speaks

00:57:14

a lot about you have you um were you

00:57:17

much of a crier pre this or were you a

00:57:19

very emotional person no like obviously

00:57:22

at at like funerals like um my granddad

00:57:27

passed away you know you you'd get a bit

00:57:29

upset and yeah yeah the birth of your

00:57:32

the birth of your first daughter yeah oh

00:57:34

yeah 100% yeah um second one yeah but

00:57:38

I'd NE I'd just never talk about yeah

00:57:41

like how I was actually feeling about

00:57:42

things you know sort of I wasn't that

00:57:47

kind of a guy you know and yeah just

00:57:49

sort of coming around now to and that's

00:57:51

I just really encourage other people

00:57:53

that are storing the police to just it's

00:57:55

fine you know like the [ __ ] they're

00:57:57

going to it's expected that's going to

00:57:59

have a toll you and there's so many

00:58:00

things I wish that I did was more open

00:58:02

to it in the past um but no I wasn't a

00:58:06

very I wasn't I was very much

00:58:08

emotionally detached um

00:58:12

previously it's lucky that you went this

00:58:14

way cuz I suppose it could have been

00:58:15

just as easy to you know um numb

00:58:17

yourself with you know alcohol or drugs

00:58:19

or you know something something less um

00:58:23

productive as what counseling is and

00:58:25

actually dealing with with the root of

00:58:26

the problem yeah yeah I'm not a massive

00:58:29

massive drinker but it's not to say that

00:58:30

you don't go down that path right but i'

00:58:33

I've definitely found running has been

00:58:36

um the only way at the moment to when I

00:58:40

get the panicky feeling in my chest to

00:58:42

get rid of it is to go for a run um

00:58:46

which last week was it was actually a

00:58:49

really bad it was a bad week like so I

00:58:51

had a psychologist appointment and then

00:58:53

usually I'll go for a run afterwards cuz

00:58:56

I find that that's when it's kind of the

00:58:57

most raw the kind of panic um chest

00:59:00

feeling that I get is right after during

00:59:04

the during the session so I always go

00:59:06

for a run afterwards and that instantly

00:59:09

usually gets rid of it but last week was

00:59:11

the first week that it hasn't got rid of

00:59:13

it um and I actually panicked and kind

00:59:15

of freaked out a little bit cuz that was

00:59:17

my was The Cure yeah it was my way to

00:59:19

get rid of the rid of the feeling so I

00:59:22

was texting Stacy like oh can I see you

00:59:25

tomorrow like and it lasted way longer

00:59:28

than it usually would have so so that

00:59:31

wasn't overly Pleasant um but so I ended

00:59:35

up going back in the next day had

00:59:36

another session and that that that did

00:59:38

help but yeah when you realize that what

00:59:42

you use as a tool to kind of help get

00:59:45

rid of the feeling for whatever reason

00:59:48

doesn't work you feel like you don't

00:59:51

really then have control over it yeah I

00:59:54

suppose it's another additional layer of

00:59:56

like vulnerability it's like f yeah yeah

00:59:58

yeah you're like [ __ ] now it's hanging

00:59:59

around and and like what about

01:00:01

nightmares and stuff any of them I get

01:00:03

the odd dream yeah

01:00:06

um but yeah it's just mainly

01:00:09

um it's mainly flashbacks when I he

01:00:12

gunshots or loud bangs um like I went

01:00:16

out with a few of um some mates the

01:00:19

other weekend and we went and played

01:00:21

down in onetto down down south golf for

01:00:23

the weekend and obviously being made

01:00:26

that's duck shooting season and we were

01:00:28

out in the

01:00:29

country so for the whole round there was

01:00:32

people were duck shooting and there's

01:00:34

all these gunshots going off and oh it's

01:00:37

the hardest round of golf I've ever

01:00:39

played cuz every every time I hear the

01:00:42

bang it's just a vivid flashback of us

01:00:44

standing at the door getting shot um do

01:00:48

do you talk to your mates about it that

01:00:50

you're playing golf with or no I didn't

01:00:52

no I didn't didn't then um afterwards

01:00:55

I've talked to one of them about it um

01:00:57

why not you just didn't want to bring

01:00:58

the party down or it was just sort of

01:01:01

like it wasn't anything new at that

01:01:04

point you know it was like we had been

01:01:07

we sort of had a um had

01:01:10

a yeah it's been ongoing for the last

01:01:13

few months that it wasn't as if I maybe

01:01:16

would have said something I don't know

01:01:18

maybe would have said something if that

01:01:19

was like the first time it started

01:01:21

happening but because I was already

01:01:23

dealing with it I was like what I'm

01:01:25

that's the normal at the moment still

01:01:28

one yeah did you yeah that's the main

01:01:32

thing um you you have you got uh some

01:01:35

friends that you have that sort of

01:01:36

relationship with where you can talk

01:01:38

about stuff or did you did you not have

01:01:40

that relationship and you have it now or

01:01:42

is that still a work on it's hard isn't

01:01:44

it cuz you you can get to the point

01:01:45

where you're comfortable with being

01:01:46

vulnerable but then you have to get your

01:01:47

friends up to speed as well if they're

01:01:49

not on the same page I'm quite thankful

01:01:51

that one of

01:01:52

my um a couple of them I've I have

01:01:55

properly opened up about to now whereas

01:01:57

I wouldn't have before

01:02:00

um yeah so a couple of them that I run

01:02:02

with it was real oddly enough we were

01:02:05

out with one of them um he's a good mate

01:02:08

and we were out running and it was I we

01:02:11

put the kids to bed and gone for a run

01:02:13

so it was like we're running in the

01:02:15

middle of the bush with at like 9:00

01:02:17

p.m. at night um and that was saw the

01:02:20

first time that he said something that

01:02:23

that kind of made me realize oh okay

01:02:26

here's an opportunity for me to talk

01:02:28

about what I'm going through with him so

01:02:29

I fully opened up to him and that was

01:02:31

the he was the first person this was

01:02:33

only a few weeks ago he was the first

01:02:35

person that I've really apart from my

01:02:38

family openly spoken about it um and

01:02:42

since then there's been a couple others

01:02:43

that I've that I've spoken to and so

01:02:46

obiously this is the bigger picture of

01:02:49

what's going on and um yeah so getting B

01:02:52

at it it's cool and you're often fun

01:02:55

with your friends that's like a

01:02:56

vulnerability exchange he so if you rip

01:02:59

the Band-Aid off and start having some

01:03:01

real talk rather than just like lied b

01:03:04

um it lets them know to Safe space and

01:03:06

that's what ended up happening like he

01:03:07

also talked about some stuff and yeah it

01:03:10

was working you know we're out out on

01:03:12

the bush running up um camp slaten out

01:03:14

Clevon no one's around just following

01:03:16

your head torch and having a proper

01:03:20

conversation you know which which

01:03:23

usually yeah wouldn't have done in the

01:03:25

past yeah and and um I'm not sure if

01:03:28

this is a discussion you and your wife

01:03:30

have had or not but um what do you tell

01:03:32

your daughters or when do you tell them

01:03:34

or so Florence obviously our oldest one

01:03:37

is very switched on so she's nearly four

01:03:39

she'll be four in July and she's very

01:03:42

switched on and she doesn't know

01:03:43

anything um obviously Frankie wasn't

01:03:46

born at the time um I can't even

01:03:50

remember like when I came home from

01:03:51

hospital that night Florence was at home

01:03:54

with my parents and I I can't actually

01:03:56

remember what what we said to her but we

01:03:59

but she definitely doesn't know what

01:04:02

what's what actually happened too young

01:04:04

to process it anyway eh yeah and like we

01:04:06

were very cautious of when we were

01:04:09

talking about it in front of her like

01:04:11

would never say shooting or anything

01:04:13

like that would just say the incident um

01:04:15

if I was talking to someone else about

01:04:17

it

01:04:19

um yeah well it was funny enough we

01:04:21

actually just and I talked about it

01:04:23

saying like I would would I ever tell

01:04:25

them you know obviously now this is out

01:04:28

there um jez hey girls yeah yeah D's on

01:04:32

YouTube yeah

01:04:34

yeah um okay well do you want to like

01:04:37

look look down the camera because I mean

01:04:39

the way YouTube works this this will

01:04:41

linger around for a while so maybe this

01:04:43

is something they can see one day I I

01:04:44

reckon I've never never met these little

01:04:47

girls but I'd say they'd be so proud of

01:04:48

you yeah I hope yeah I hope so yeah um

01:04:52

what you

01:04:53

say oh put me on the spot now um I'd

01:04:58

just like to say that you know I'm

01:05:01

grateful that I get to be around to see

01:05:03

you guys grow up and and hope that you

01:05:06

get to see that it's all right to be

01:05:09

vulnerable um and talk about your

01:05:11

feelings and

01:05:14

um yeah and and I think the way

01:05:17

that me and um their mama raising them

01:05:21

at the moment we are very much creating

01:05:24

that safe space for them

01:05:26

to come to us and talk to us about

01:05:29

things

01:05:30

so yeah to the Future girls love you oh

01:05:34

I'm getting emotional here

01:05:36

this yeah I'm sure you were you were um

01:05:40

a great dead before but this is like

01:05:41

just a new layer of Sam Clark right yeah

01:05:44

really cool puts in the perspective

01:05:46

what's important right yeah and what are

01:05:49

you what are your goals for the

01:05:51

future

01:05:52

um like workwise or personal or probably

01:05:57

yeah personal I think um just being the

01:06:00

best version of yourself yeah just sort

01:06:02

of keep keep kind of on this journey

01:06:06

there we go dropped it twice

01:06:09

um is she giving you a discount every

01:06:12

time you say it yeah yeah well the

01:06:13

police are Pain still so Oh that's oh

01:06:15

that's fantastic yeah yeah so they they

01:06:18

they cover um essentially for the rest

01:06:21

of for Jess and I um if it's in relation

01:06:25

to the incident they'll it's covered for

01:06:27

the rest even though I've left so really

01:06:30

grateful and thankful to to have that

01:06:32

opportunity um yeah what what sort of my

01:06:35

sort of just keep continuing on this

01:06:38

journey and um sort of got some like

01:06:43

Fitness events that I want to do and

01:06:45

sort of trying to make sure I'm around

01:06:47

for the girls more often and

01:06:50

prioritizing like now I can actually

01:06:52

prioritize family over work um so making

01:06:55

the most of that

01:06:59

um yeah and and I've actually and since

01:07:02

we've started talking now I'm actually

01:07:04

enjoying telling my story and um so it'd

01:07:09

be cool to sort of keep going down that

01:07:11

Avenue as well um yeah it's a it's a I

01:07:16

mean it's a hell of a story and a hell

01:07:17

of a thing to go through and I think a

01:07:18

lot of people can learn a lot uh from

01:07:21

what you've you've been through and um I

01:07:23

think we were talking about this before

01:07:24

the podcast um started so you're

01:07:26

training for a 24-hour race in Ro later

01:07:29

this year and um yeah everyone gets the

01:07:31

same amount of hours in the day

01:07:32

regardless of who you are so you're

01:07:34

you're doing most of your running

01:07:35

training at night yeah for the most part

01:07:38

I wait till very much trying to fit it

01:07:40

around the family so put the kids put

01:07:43

the girls to bed and then we'll go out

01:07:46

and run for an hour hour and a half um

01:07:48

then get up early to go to work um yeah

01:07:52

I got doing the Blue Lake 24-hour

01:07:54

challenge in September

01:07:56

so it's essentially down in um roroa the

01:07:59

Blue Lake there's a 6K trail that runs

01:08:02

around and it's essentially as many laps

01:08:05

of it as possible in 24 hours um so I've

01:08:09

got that and then there's an event in

01:08:12

March next year called Northburn 100

01:08:15

have you heard of that yeah

01:08:18

100K 100 it's a mile so it's 160 K down

01:08:21

in Cromwell with 10,000 M of elevation

01:08:25

so it's more than Everest and elevation

01:08:28

um so me and a buddy are that's our main

01:08:32

goal for next year is to do that but

01:08:36

yeah we'll see if I can keep getting

01:08:37

permission from Jess to go train it's a

01:08:40

big commitment

01:08:41

so oh you got a good one there um but

01:08:44

she must be um on the flip side of that

01:08:46

like she must be proud of um you know

01:08:48

you coming closer to Reaching Your

01:08:50

Potential like um yeah this is probably

01:08:53

an unexpected layer of Sam Clark that

01:08:55

she didn't know she was getting when she

01:08:57

married and she's like I everyone says

01:09:01

about their wife like she's incredible

01:09:02

she truly is you know like she's always

01:09:06

um before we had kids and I was working

01:09:09

shift work and the police she was like

01:09:12

the minute we have kids um like I want

01:09:15

you to try to get a Monday to Friday CU

01:09:17

it be easier and I'm like yeah yeah

01:09:20

sweet yeah yeah so then we have a kid

01:09:22

and I'm like I'm going to join the armed

01:09:24

Defender Squad and

01:09:25

and be on call every second week and get

01:09:30

called out in the middle of the night

01:09:31

and and um add all this extra work and

01:09:34

keep working shift work and um and she

01:09:38

even though that's wasn't her ideal what

01:09:40

she she thought was going to happen she

01:09:42

was always supportive and should never

01:09:44

she never would turn around and say oh

01:09:47

no I don't don't want you to do it you

01:09:49

know like if I'd set my mind that this

01:09:51

was what I wanted to do um cuz they have

01:09:54

it really tough you know like when when

01:09:57

we're on call there's been times that

01:09:59

it's 5:00 at night you're halfway

01:10:02

through cooking dinner she might have um

01:10:06

Florence in the bath and a call out

01:10:08

comes in and you're like

01:10:10

well like sorry but I I need to go and

01:10:13

you literally drop everything and go and

01:10:15

she has to pick up all the pieces and um

01:10:19

so she truly is incredible and has

01:10:22

always been supportive with any career

01:10:24

decision that made made yeah and I mean

01:10:27

it may not may not feel like this from

01:10:28

um the perspective of um you the police

01:10:31

or the AOS guys but um from a Partners

01:10:33

perspective even though it's a slim

01:10:35

chance there's still a chance that every

01:10:36

time you leave the house you may not

01:10:38

come back yeah 100% And that's for all

01:10:40

the guys and girls that are in the

01:10:42

police yeah like and they like we get to

01:10:46

do what we enjoy and it's our job but

01:10:48

they're the ones that in general get

01:10:51

left behind at home um and they've got a

01:10:55

lot on the line you know to lose yeah

01:10:59

yeah um is there anything that we

01:11:01

haven't ticked off that that that that

01:11:04

you're going to be in the car after this

01:11:05

and go [ __ ] I wish we talked about that

01:11:07

or I wish I took that off um anything

01:11:09

anything left

01:11:11

unsa no I think that's that's for the I

01:11:14

wouldn't mind talking about the work

01:11:15

that I'm doing oh yeah yeah you're a

01:11:19

consultant now yeah so still working so

01:11:21

still got a full-time job at the moment

01:11:23

but I've started up a a sort of like an

01:11:26

emergency management consultancy

01:11:29

business so there's a lot of work and

01:11:33

sort of I talk through my experience in

01:11:36

particular around being involved in the

01:11:37

shooting and and an active armed

01:11:39

Defender situation

01:11:43

and essentially created some training

01:11:46

packages that get provided now to um

01:11:50

like your retail facilities and retail

01:11:52

stores cuz there's a lot that they can

01:11:55

do and have a responsibility that they

01:11:58

can prepare themsel for worst case you

01:12:02

know like we look at Sydney um the Bondi

01:12:06

Junction active arm Defender you know at

01:12:08

the Westfield

01:12:11

um they I know that that Westfield has

01:12:14

had this particular training through

01:12:15

another company and so they were as

01:12:18

prepared as possible there's a lot that

01:12:20

we can do for our retail centers and

01:12:24

crowded places in general um so yes I've

01:12:27

sort of started up a consultancy

01:12:29

business to try and upskill management

01:12:33

of facilities on how to take command and

01:12:35

control of the incident um and how to

01:12:38

then transition over to police because

01:12:40

there's a lot that they can do and a lot

01:12:43

of decisions that they can make that can

01:12:46

save lives and prevent more people being

01:12:49

injured so there's that aspect of it and

01:12:52

then we part of it also dives into

01:12:55

actual employees on the floor you know

01:12:58

educating them and giving them Awareness

01:13:00

on what to expect and what's our natural

01:13:03

um our natural reaction when something

01:13:06

unfolds um just sort of upskilling them

01:13:09

and and it's interesting now that I've

01:13:10

kind of researched more into it it's

01:13:15

there's a a look at it now and a lot of

01:13:18

the things that we say people are going

01:13:20

to do in situations when they react when

01:13:24

I reflect back on on our active arm

01:13:26

defender inulin in July there was all of

01:13:29

that stuff was there you know like we

01:13:31

had they talk about the the natural

01:13:34

human responses of fight flight freeze

01:13:37

and these days they talk about filming

01:13:40

so people will because of our we've got

01:13:42

our phones they just freeze and will

01:13:44

film you know so we had when we arrived

01:13:47

at the incident we had um probably about

01:13:52

40 school kids not too far away from the

01:13:54

construction site that were filming us

01:13:56

getting out of the car let alone there's

01:13:58

gunshots clearly being heard in a

01:14:00

construction site and their reaction

01:14:02

wasn't to leave the area but to pull out

01:14:04

their phone and and film um so it's just

01:14:08

sort of preparing them around what

01:14:10

decisions they can make

01:14:12

to essentially save their lives their

01:14:15

customers lives and um yeah it's funny

01:14:18

we even had when we were up on level 18

01:14:22

and the rounds were sort of going off

01:14:25

10 met behind us was a construction

01:14:27

worker filming so he's right in the

01:14:30

midst of it and his reaction wasn't to

01:14:33

run but [ __ ] I better pull out my phone

01:14:35

and video this it's got to be good for

01:14:38

Tik Tok followers oh

01:14:41

yeah but like you're like man if that

01:14:43

was me I'd be even if I was down where

01:14:45

the school kids were like a little bit

01:14:47

away man I would be gone like especially

01:14:49

my family was there you know

01:14:52

um yeah so it's just sort kind of

01:14:55

presented a good opportunity to try and

01:14:58

give back from my own experience to try

01:15:00

and upskill and train others on how to

01:15:03

manage the incident and yeah sort of

01:15:07

pass on my experience to them in that

01:15:09

way I love that oh for any uh yeah

01:15:12

business owners or um you know retail

01:15:15

chains that potentially listening to

01:15:16

this that think they could utilize your

01:15:18

services what's the best way to track

01:15:19

you down um so I've just launched our

01:15:22

our website so it's um response rise.com

01:15:26

um we're on

01:15:28

Instagram and yeah just reach out even

01:15:32

if you just want to catch up for a

01:15:33

coffee and talk through what if if if it

01:15:36

will work for you guys or if not um but

01:15:40

yeah I really try and use talk through

01:15:42

my experience with it and um actually

01:15:45

run through scenarios with them so we'll

01:15:48

put someone walking around their

01:15:51

shopping center and actually see if they

01:15:53

can track them on CCTV and

01:15:55

um if what Pas are they doing and

01:15:58

actually practice a free run run through

01:16:00

before the hopefully fingers cross it

01:16:02

doesn't happen but unfortunately one day

01:16:04

when it does happen yeah brilliant well

01:16:09

Sam Clark thank you very much for your

01:16:11

service and thanks for now um sharing uh

01:16:14

your unfortunate experiences which um

01:16:16

ultimately I think have made you and

01:16:18

will continue to make you a better

01:16:20

person no thank you cheers for giving me

01:16:22

the opportunity to openly talk about it

01:16:25

and hopefully it encourages um even just

01:16:29

one of the guys or girls that are still

01:16:31

in the police to go talk to someone and

01:16:33

it's it's normal and it's fine and um

01:16:37

yeah it's a real strength to be able to

01:16:38

do it

01:16:40

so appreciate it great place to end it

01:16:42

yeah thank you cheers

01:16:55

oh

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