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[Music]
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Sam Clark welcome to my podcast cheers
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thank you app you're a little um a
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little nervous this is your first
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podcast experience yeah oh I'd be yeah
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lying if I'm lying if I'm not not like I
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was saying to you before sort of not my
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personality to talk about myself
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especially in deep um or in sort of more
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lengthy conversations I'm more the kind
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of guy that just sit around and like to
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listen when when people talk but yeah
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definitely taking something out of the
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um out of my comfort zone new experience
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so yeah yeah cuz you you messaged me um
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on Instagram maybe a couple of months
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ago and we were just going backwards and
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forwards and uh you had some kind words
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about some previous episodes I've done
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that sort of helped you and then um I
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suggested that you'd be a good podcast
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guest uh you said [ __ ] off pretty
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much a little bit
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polter and then uh after after chatting
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about it with your wife uh you came back
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and said yeah maybe give it a go yeah
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yeah it was after I listened to your
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episode with um jenet redond and I think
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that um that afternoon I'd sort of come
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back from a psychologist appointment and
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um was not in the not in a good head
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space just feeling a bit [ __ ] and then
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listening to your episode where you sort
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of opened up and um yeah it was openly
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vulnerable sort of just gave me a bit of
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perspective of what I was going through
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it's normal and it's and it's okay so
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just thought that I'd flick your message
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just to say there was a appreciated um
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but yeah I did
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decline no no was it was um the message
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was really really kind and it's great to
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um have you here today and um what you
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have been through is um anything but
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normal um and we can get into this in as
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as much or as little detail as as what
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you're comfortable with but um yeah 20th
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of July
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2023 take it take us back to that that
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that day that morning um yeah so we were
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I was working on on this it was about
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7:20 in the morning and I was
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working um on this work group called opt
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which was part of this tactical response
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model in the
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police um and I remember that we were in
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the office and we which is we were out
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manal so traffic was shocking that time
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of the morning and we heard on the radio
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that a job had come in for a on Queen
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Street seen with a um shotgun and that
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was all the initial information so we um
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started to K up um ready to deploy to it
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um then we got we got updates that he
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had gone into a construction site and
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shots had been fired and I think someone
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had been um H at that
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point
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um sorry and yeah so we we floyed um we
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were a team of
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four um came in F rush hour traffic
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basically the whole way into the into
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the City and I remember um hearing on
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the radio that U there were more shots
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um more shots going off in the
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construction
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site and that there had been uh more
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people injured and at some stage I think
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police had already been shot at from the
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offender
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um yeah so
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we we got in there um and I remember
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thinking the whole way in that you know
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oh we're we're fighting rush hour
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traffic to get in there you know you're
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we're not going to get there in time you
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know he's police already front line guys
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and girls are already there um we just
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they're going to deal with it you know
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before we sort of get there for the not
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the good parts but for the to actually
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see some bit of action um
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but it kept unfolding we started get a
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little bit closer and started realizing
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okay we might actually be on here and
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have to really get stuck into work
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um yes so we pulled up um got all our um
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kit out I was driving and I remember
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when we pulled up or just before we
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pulled up the rest of the boys started
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chucking on their helmets their
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ballistic helmets and obviously I was
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driving so I couldn't couldn't put my
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one on and when we pulled up one of the
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boys just chucked me um a random helmet
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cuz mine was in the squad room at the
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time so it was someone else's
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helmet and I remember getting out of the
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car and looking at looking at my helmet
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and you could hear at this point
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gunshots going off in the construction
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site um which was down on one one Queen
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Street I think it was yes so you could
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hear gunshots going off and I remember
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looking at my helmet and having kind of
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like that feeling inside of [ __ ] I
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actually probably don't have time to
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actually put this on you know there's a
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guy in the construction site that's
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actively killing people or trying to
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attempt in to kill people and injure
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them um and just thought nah [ __ ] it
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I'll take the sorry I swear a bit that's
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all right that's a podcast I yeah so
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remember looking my helmet and thinking
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now I'll just take 20 seconds I'll just
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take 20 seconds to put it on um and what
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what ended up being fine cuz by that
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point the the rest of the boys had gone
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to the back in of the car and St and
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pull out some like first aid um kits and
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I think one one of the guys originally
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tried to pull out the shield and thought
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now bug of this um the defender was up
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on like level 18 so he I'm not carrying
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this all the way up so chucked it
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back um yeah went into the construction
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site I think when we got there he was on
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level it was either around level 18 or
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over 15 around there so we
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started
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um going up basically with our steer
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drills and and I remember you know there
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was um blood like from arterial bleeds
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when they bleed they squirt out so there
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was blood on the side of the um concrete
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slabs in the staircase there were empty
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shotgun casings on the on the
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staircase um there were victims that
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were running down that had um like
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gunshot wounds to their hands and arms
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um we just had to bypass them you know
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sort of our priority is to stop the
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offending and then then we look to
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provide medical assistance where we can
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mhm um yes we got ended up getting all
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the way up to level 20 um where some of
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the other guys that were on Squad um
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sorry on the
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um had already chased him up there and
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he had gone into like a elevator two
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elevator shafts that were under
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construction
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um so the decision was made that okay we
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would drop down two levels to try and
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isolate him in those shafts so that
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essentially he couldn't get back down
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past us back out onto another floor and
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keep shooting and looking for more
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victims essentially
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um like it's a lot going on very quickly
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yeah oh yeah it sort of took like we I
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remember we left manal at 7 from memory
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it was about 7:30 in the morning um and
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you're fighting rush hour traffic so
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really you're probably not getting in
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there to about maybe 20 minutes 30
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minutes so he had a lot of time to do
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some damage I mean once once you and the
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rest of your AOS arm Defender Squad
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mates are in there it's like Split
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Second decisions isn't it oh 100% um and
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I got to take my hat off to you know the
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AL for commander who ran that ran the
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job you know he's he's the one that's
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we're just
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executing his decisions essentially and
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following orders yeah and and he's
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having to make them um within yeah like
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you say a split second that no we are
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going to go down two floors um to try
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and isolate them so a few of of us went
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down back down from level 20 down to
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18 um and there were
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four like um plywood doors that were ped
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locked shut so where the elevator doors
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will eventually go they were just a
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hinged piece of plywood essentially
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temporary door and there were four of
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them lined up so we started to work on
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the first one just to start breaching
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them open so that we could properly
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contain him the
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offender um so I helped out on the the
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first door that was there um we breached
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that and it was just an open um
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essentially an open Elevator Shaft so
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there was nothing inside it just dropped
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straight down um and at this point I
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could
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see for some reason they we missed two
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doors and went to the last door in the
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row um and I could see two of the boys
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already working on that door so um
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usually with like with our drills you
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want three three people there ideally so
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I pushed over um I pushed over to where
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they were and we started to get to work
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on that
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door
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um yeah so the door we breached the door
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and essentially as the doors opened with
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we all we've been looking at is like a
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pitch black um Pitch Black space and
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basically as soon as that door has
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opened um two gunshots have gone off
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from the the offender
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um and I just remember feeling a massive
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thump to the side of my head and my com
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set falling off so it was then it was
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dangling down my back um so obviously
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that kind of knocked me backwards and
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all my ass a little bit um one of the
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Dog Handlers came around and grabbed
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kind of grabbed me around the corner and
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which just took off my helmet um checked
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everything over checked that my head was
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all good there was no obvious blood or
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anything um yeah put the helmet back on
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and came back around the corner to keep
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doing the job with the boys oh so you're
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back to work yeah yeah but but at that
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point there was there was a few other
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obviously once we had been shot a few of
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the boys had pushed past us and had put
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themselves in a position where they were
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doing the work basically at that point
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but came back around to join the stack
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with them um to be useful where possible
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and
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yeah yeah you um
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what what does it feel like when you get
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shot in a ballistics helmet with a with
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with a bullet um I wouldn't recommend it
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that um I mean you you you've done um
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you you do Iron Man events and you've
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done trions you must have fallen off a
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bike before is it similar to falling off
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a bike with a helmet on or is it does
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does it feel like someone's punched you
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in the it feels like someone's yeah like
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you've just clocked one to the side of
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the head basically so you sort of like a
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bit
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bewildered yeah yeah enough to like make
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you sort of stumble backwards um um a
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little bit and the helmet definitely did
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its job
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um yeah it's not something I'd i'
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recommend I think all I had in the end
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was a bit of a mild concussion which is
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what I walked away with thankfully um
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yeah because I I looked this up
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yesterday just to um remind myself of um
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yeah what happened that day so the
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shooter was a a 24-year-old who was on
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um um electronically mon monitored bail
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with permission to go to work so I went
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work in commercial Bay with a with a G
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gun as we know um killed two of his
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colleagues uh wounded seven other people
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including a police officer and then um
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killed himself so the police officer
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that was injured that's not you so two
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of us got shot right yeah so um one of
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us and I I sort of don't want to talk
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about um he's a good mate and sort of
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his recounter the events is sort of his
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story story to tell but yeah so he he
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received more physical injuries um but
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we were both at that door at the same
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time and he got one shot and I got the
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other one essentially right yeah so so
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when we read that report like one one
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police officer injured like it doesn't
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count the block that got a shot in the
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head with it shot to the shot to the
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head but it was concussion just a
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concussion yeah doesn't count to the
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stats
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um then when when do you find out that
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the um the the gunman has killed
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himself um so obviously we I was there
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once um once it all kind of eventuated
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and resolved itself um but yeah he just
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heard him essentially just um shoot
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himself basically and then there was a
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bit of a delay just voice appealing them
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the the guys did a good job with um
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after we had both of us had been shot
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there was a bit of a delay so they start
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voice peeling them out to try and not
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just rush in and take action you know
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they still had their thought okay let's
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try an alternative means um yeah so
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arrest them yeah yeah
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but must be a crazy chaotic environment
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like just shouting
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yelling yeah like you could hear um when
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we're going up the staircase originally
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at the staircase it was 15 flights or so
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20 flights to go up but yeah you can
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hear people screaming for help and
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victims in the um in the stairwell that
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you know had gunshot wounds and and you
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can't help them you know because you're
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still someone that's um actively
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offending and that's our priority
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unfortunately is to bypass the injured
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and deal with the offender neutralize
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him whether it's take him into custody
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or whatever um before we can actually
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look at providing first aid um yeah so
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then so so after it reaches its um
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conclusion
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um what what happens then so you s sit
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down and have a have a coffee or would
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have been nice um n so we had to I had a
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um throbbing headache and was felt like
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dizzy for about a couple hours um but
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essentially us myself and a couple of
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the others that were involved in the
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critical ending aspect of it um we kind
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of got put to the side
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and kind of not really to talk to sort
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of any of the other guys that were
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coming and going just from like
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investigation purposes so we kind of got
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put to the side and essentially what
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happens is um the team gets formed up
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and they clear the whole entire
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construction site so that took 4 hours
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that we were stuck up on level 18 and
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they had to clear 18 floors down to make
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sure that there's definitely no more
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offenders there's the one hiding um
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that's injured or um yeah so we I
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essentially had to wait the 4 hours till
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I could get get out and um to the
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ambulance and I just remember being
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busting for a piss the whole
00:16:15
time um I was there's nowhere there's
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nowhere to go can you go on your helmet
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yeah yeah well that was already right
00:16:23
off so as well um did did you did you
00:16:26
have your phone on you are you able to
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yeah so get hold of your wife my wife
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was ringing me
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um and how how I handled I mean she
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tells it a lot better than than I do but
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how I handled that whole situation
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afterwards and her words could have been
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a lot better um yeah so she rang me once
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and I'm I was looking at her and this
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was when we kind of seen to the side I
00:16:51
had throbbing headache and um sort of
00:16:54
coming round to actually what how
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processing what happened I was yeah yeah
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um and so she's ringing me and I it it
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popped up and I remember looking at her
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and thinking [ __ ] I can't answer this
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you know and I felt like at that point I
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wanted to cry um just sort of seing her
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her pop up and I was like thinking [ __ ]
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how am I going to explain this one you
00:17:19
know like um so I didn't answer that
00:17:21
call and then she rang again I didn't
00:17:23
answer that one meanwhile she's
00:17:25
panicking more and more with every call
00:17:27
yeah and and and she she says it a lot a
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lot better but she had she had no idea
00:17:32
what was going on she had dropped out
00:17:34
door off at daycare and her phone was
00:17:35
blowing up saying this I hope Sam's all
00:17:38
good and had a whole bunch of messages
00:17:41
and she's like I don't even know what's
00:17:43
happening so then naturally she starts
00:17:45
pening and it wasn't once she read
00:17:47
started looking online and she had saw
00:17:49
what had unfolded she then tried
00:17:51
reaching out but I ended up just texting
00:17:53
her um and this is the bit that I could
00:17:56
have handled better um they just said I
00:17:59
I'm all good um I got hit in the helmet
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but I'm
00:18:05
fine and that was all I
00:18:08
left was that was all I lefted it very
00:18:11
economical with your words yeah yeah
00:18:12
yeah and she say what do you mean like
00:18:15
hit with what a bullet or Capal and I
00:18:18
was like yeah yeah but I'm
00:18:20
fine um but yeah we've we've talked
00:18:23
about that and how to if if it was to
00:18:26
happen again how to how to handle handle
00:18:29
it a little bit better but it's a
00:18:30
surreal situation isn't it Ian you're in
00:18:32
shock she's panicked yeah yeah like I
00:18:35
don't know how else do you explain it
00:18:37
like yeah I did get hit but I'm fine um
00:18:41
without going into can't sit there and
00:18:43
tex out everything that's happened you
00:18:45
know no blow by blow yeah there's yeah
00:18:48
time for that later on I guess but you
00:18:49
can understand it from her perspective
00:18:50
but also I can understand it from yourp
00:18:52
100% yeah I'd be freaking out too if if
00:18:55
I was in her shoes you know so when so
00:18:58
when when you when you um get reunited
00:19:01
with her later that day what happened
00:19:03
you burst into tears what are you um so
00:19:05
I ended up having to go through the
00:19:06
hospital right so once we came out of
00:19:09
the site four or so hours later went
00:19:12
through the hospital and they just did
00:19:13
some like CT scans on my head just to
00:19:15
make sure that there wasn't any
00:19:17
permanent damage and it just to confirm
00:19:19
basically it was just a concussion um so
00:19:21
she ended up coming into hospital to
00:19:24
meet me there
00:19:27
um yeah I don't I I actually can't
00:19:29
really remember what I kind of felt at
00:19:31
the time I think I was probably still
00:19:33
had that mess of adrenaline dump and
00:19:37
um yeah I I remember her like walking in
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to the hospital and being like sort of
00:19:43
feeling grateful and thankful that she
00:19:44
was there but the yeah like wasn't
00:19:48
overly emotional I think it was just cuz
00:19:50
I still had that mess of adrenaline dump
00:19:52
from the whole cortisol levels must have
00:19:54
been through the [ __ ] ro oh yeah yeah
00:19:57
I remember not sleeping that night and
00:19:59
um just cuz you're playing it over and
00:20:02
over and over again
00:20:04
um
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yeah yeah so so armed Defender Squad um
00:20:11
so you have the um the bulletproof
00:20:13
helmet on which saved your life what
00:20:15
else have on do you have like a a
00:20:16
bulletproof chest vest or so we on the
00:20:19
team that we were working we were just
00:20:22
in normal Blues like like the normal
00:20:25
police that you see so we essentially
00:20:27
the trm model was created after conal
00:20:31
Matt hunt was murdered um as a a way to
00:20:37
essentially try and provide more support
00:20:39
to the front line so we were a work
00:20:42
group that had
00:20:44
four um AOS members on it but we were
00:20:49
dressed them out Blues to kind of to
00:20:51
essentially you the idea behind it so
00:20:54
that you could think you looking at a
00:20:57
normal Frontline p PST cop but you've
00:20:59
actually got four AOS qualified guys
00:21:03
there so that day we were just working
00:21:05
in our in our normal blue uniform but
00:21:08
yeah we so we had our bass on and we
00:21:10
just used to carry our helmets in the
00:21:12
car in case we went to a job that
00:21:15
escalated at least we had the re some
00:21:18
resources to do what we needed to while
00:21:21
we waited for the rest of the squad to
00:21:23
come out so presumably it was like a
00:21:26
wild shot rather than a targeted shot so
00:21:28
it could have easily got you in the in
00:21:30
the chest in the in the arm yeah
00:21:32
essentially so I think we ended up
00:21:34
thankfully we ended up being about a
00:21:37
meter and a half 2 m away from him
00:21:40
behind the door and i' still have never
00:21:42
seen him like it's still like last thing
00:21:44
I remember was just looking at a black
00:21:47
um black um space essentially um so it
00:21:52
was a blessing in disguise that both of
00:21:54
us were really close so the helmet took
00:21:58
the full impact um so essentially the
00:22:00
pallets are kind of St in like a wng
00:22:02
that comes out so they're in a shotgun
00:22:04
shell they're yeah a bunch of pallets
00:22:07
basically and because we were so close
00:22:08
they didn't have time to spread um
00:22:11
whereas I think if we were maybe a oh I
00:22:13
was maybe a couple meters 2 3 m back
00:22:16
that spread probably would have been a
00:22:18
bit wider and probably would have come
00:22:19
down into the neck area
00:22:22
um yeah I think thankfully I know um I
00:22:28
don't know maybe maybe I'm not the
00:22:29
tallest bloke the I think if I was a bit
00:22:32
taller that you know what was up here
00:22:34
could have maybe been down a little bit
00:22:36
lower um what other helmets is there
00:22:39
like a is it like a face guard or is no
00:22:41
there no face guard just literally just
00:22:42
a right just a ballistic helmet that's
00:22:45
just got um they look like um your a Ms
00:22:49
on the side but they're a com set so you
00:22:50
can still it's sound reducing to loud
00:22:54
desile so if a gunshot went off it would
00:22:56
block that out but you could still talk
00:22:59
as normal to each other um but yeah no
00:23:01
face shield um and I wasn't wearing
00:23:04
glasses um at the time either just cuz I
00:23:06
didn't have any
00:23:09
um yeah he was sh there was a lot that
00:23:11
went lucky that day isn't there oh yeah
00:23:14
and I just think back to you know if I
00:23:16
just remember stearing when we arrived
00:23:19
looking at my helmet and thinking
00:23:20
hearing gunshots you could hear people
00:23:22
scream inside for help and you're like
00:23:25
[ __ ] I probably don't have time to put
00:23:27
this on you know but
00:23:29
having I'm just going to take 20 seconds
00:23:31
or 30 seconds whatever it was to put the
00:23:33
helmet on make sure I'm ready to go so
00:23:35
that when we go in I'm as prepared as
00:23:37
possible and yeah thank God I did yeah
00:23:41
so when when uh what happens after that
00:23:44
do you go back to work or did you just
00:23:45
never return to work in your day no so
00:23:47
we um the police actually have a really
00:23:49
good reintegration program yeah um so
00:23:53
immediately after I think they sort of
00:23:54
gives you like oh you can have five I
00:23:56
think it was about 5 days off but at
00:23:58
that point you know you're going to a
00:24:00
psychologist straight away um you're
00:24:03
getting you got medical appointments
00:24:05
just to get the doctors sign off um got
00:24:09
meetings with the lawyers obviously
00:24:11
there's a criminal investigation aspect
00:24:13
of it as well um to figure out what
00:24:16
actually happened so we the association
00:24:19
kind of set us up with um yes you get
00:24:22
into talk to a lawyer just to make sure
00:24:25
what the statement that you're going to
00:24:26
give is is all it off and appropriate
00:24:31
essentially um so that was about 5 days
00:24:34
and I think after that 5 days I I went
00:24:38
back and and asked for more days off cuz
00:24:42
I kind of didn't really have a break
00:24:44
afterwards you know we had all these
00:24:45
appointments had to go see the
00:24:47
psychologist doctors lawyers
00:24:49
appointments you know everyone's
00:24:50
checking in on you the commissioner of
00:24:52
the police was um ringing to check in um
00:24:56
the guys on just that you work with
00:24:59
always Chicken in so I didn't really
00:25:00
feel like I had that break not really
00:25:04
not really a break so I said to my like
00:25:06
I just oh can you just just say I need
00:25:08
another I think it was about like six
00:25:10
more days off and at that six days I
00:25:12
just didn't pick up my phone or anything
00:25:14
and actually had six days off seems like
00:25:17
the duty of care from what you're
00:25:18
describing the duty of Care on behalf of
00:25:20
that like the place was really good it
00:25:21
is really good yeah and they and they
00:25:23
don't pressure you to go back either so
00:25:26
they
00:25:27
um they Sorry Kan is distracting me um
00:25:32
they yeah um so yeah their reintegration
00:25:36
program is really good so they sort of
00:25:38
you catch up for a coffee with the
00:25:39
reintegration team and they say like
00:25:42
essentially what do you feel like you
00:25:44
want to do to ease you back into work so
00:25:47
for me I said I wanted to do some um
00:25:51
like just listening to gunshots
00:25:53
again um what else did we do we did some
00:25:58
uh um went back did some shooting and
00:26:01
then just did some shooting in the dark
00:26:03
so sort of just getting in the habit of
00:26:05
chucking on the light doing some
00:26:08
shooting there but they they literally
00:26:09
ease you into it like we started off
00:26:11
with but by the way I'm just going to
00:26:13
pause you there I don't think you
00:26:14
realize how unusual that sentence or
00:26:17
paragraph is like easing back into work
00:26:19
by listening to gunshot noises and
00:26:22
shooting in the dark like it's it's
00:26:24
[ __ ] up yeah it is it is [ __ ] up but
00:26:27
that's the environment that you're
00:26:28
working you know um how how hard was it
00:26:31
to do that stuff at the time it was fine
00:26:35
yeah um at the time it was yeah it was
00:26:39
it was fine like we went to the range
00:26:41
and we um literally stood
00:26:45
outside
00:26:47
and yeah so we stood outside the range
00:26:51
and US listen to someone shooting inside
00:26:54
and then you get closer to the door and
00:26:56
you listen to it and then they open the
00:26:57
door to the range and you listen to the
00:26:59
gunshots and they'll just shoot and you
00:27:02
just kind of make your way closer and
00:27:04
closer till you're standing next to the
00:27:06
operator that's shooting just to expose
00:27:07
you to it again um and then you take
00:27:10
your ear M off if you want to um yeah so
00:27:14
they really ease you back into and
00:27:16
they're very open to like whatever you
00:27:20
feel like you need to do they'll make it
00:27:22
happen you know um well it's it's such
00:27:25
um such an important job but also such
00:27:27
an unusual job as well yeah yeah it
00:27:30
really is so so when do so you you do go
00:27:32
back to work yeah so I went back um I
00:27:35
went back from this was July and I ended
00:27:38
up leaving in October end of October I
00:27:41
ended up leaving the police so yes I
00:27:43
went back was that July August about 3
00:27:45
months was it your decision to leave or
00:27:48
like a a co-joined decision with your
00:27:49
wife
00:27:52
so looking at it now and this is sort of
00:27:54
like the I even though me and her have
00:27:57
had really good conversations about it
00:27:59
and talked about and I apologized to her
00:28:01
with the way I kind of dealt with it
00:28:04
afterwards but like once I kind of did
00:28:07
my reintegration and figured okay yeah
00:28:10
there's no triggers that I'm reacting to
00:28:13
or feeling stressed about um it was kind
00:28:16
of back to business as usual you know it
00:28:20
was um it was one of
00:28:23
the still at at the time it was the best
00:28:27
job I've ever been been to you know you
00:28:30
people will be in the police and on AOS
00:28:32
for their whole lives or their whole
00:28:34
career and never get to be exposed to an
00:28:36
incident like that so it's so even it's
00:28:39
that's a horrible thing it's still oh
00:28:41
it's still highlight highlight my you
00:28:43
know that's what we train for you know
00:28:44
all of our training is um worst case
00:28:48
scenario and that is worst case scenario
00:28:50
so it actually get to be deployed and be
00:28:52
at the pointy end of it is sort a
00:28:56
highlight of my career um is that why
00:28:58
you're so BL when you arrive so Blas
00:29:00
about the the helmet because things like
00:29:02
this just don't thankfully don't happen
00:29:04
all that often yeah yeah and yeah
00:29:08
potentially um yeah and it was just kind
00:29:12
of had the equipment there so you just
00:29:14
use it right um but yes I ended up
00:29:16
leaving in October I wasn't leave I
00:29:18
wasn't planning on leaving I was still
00:29:20
enjoying work and I'm happy had some
00:29:24
good jobs after that that we went to and
00:29:26
the confidence was there and there
00:29:28
wasn't any issues but my wife was still
00:29:31
kind of struggling with it a little bit
00:29:33
um like she was
00:29:35
getting like we would get I'd get called
00:29:38
out in the middle of the night and then
00:29:40
she's not sleeping now because she's
00:29:42
stressed well last time he got a call
00:29:44
out he nearly died essentially so
00:29:47
naturally
00:29:48
she's um anxious and her
00:29:52
anxiety's um no good so she was kind of
00:29:55
struggling with with it a little bit and
00:29:58
an opportunity out of the blue popped up
00:30:00
to sort of go do some different work um
00:30:03
that was
00:30:04
just kind of I looked at it as kind of
00:30:08
meant to be and kind of I wasn't looking
00:30:09
for it and it sort of came looking for
00:30:12
me so yeah just talked to Jess about it
00:30:15
and at the time it was the best decision
00:30:18
for both of us I think to to go do
00:30:20
something else yeah cuz you got two two
00:30:22
daughters as well what are the age of
00:30:24
Ages of your daughters uh so at the time
00:30:27
Florence was it was 10 days before her
00:30:30
third birthday and then uh my wife was
00:30:33
pregnant at the time so that didn't help
00:30:35
either
00:30:38
um yeah I'm M I'm I'm um I'm amazed you
00:30:41
went back to work at
00:30:43
all oh that's it's it's hard cuz it's
00:30:47
like like I sort of said it's it's what
00:30:49
we train for you know like that's to be
00:30:52
involved in a job like that was all a
00:30:54
lot of our training was training for a
00:30:56
situation like that and it did feel at
00:30:58
the time it felt like a scenario like
00:31:01
our scenarios in training we we'll have
00:31:03
role players and um depending
00:31:07
on to be hon some of some of the
00:31:09
exercises you know they will get um they
00:31:12
will be running around and screaming at
00:31:14
you and it did it just felt like a
00:31:16
scenario that we're stacked up um at the
00:31:20
car and they said cool scenario begins
00:31:21
and you do your run through and and
00:31:23
that's what it felt like on the day so
00:31:24
it just showed that the training that we
00:31:26
had been doing had prepared us
00:31:28
appropriate for it I think
00:31:30
we we were just set up we just had the
00:31:35
disadvantage essentially so um where the
00:31:38
offend ended up being you know we were
00:31:41
standing in an open construction floor
00:31:44
that had the skyline as a background and
00:31:46
he's in a dark room so the minute that
00:31:48
door opens he's looking he's seeing all
00:31:51
these Silhouettes against the Blue Sky
00:31:53
backdrop and we're steering into a black
00:31:58
room so I don't think it would have
00:32:00
mattered who was at the door or if we
00:32:02
had have done anything different we he
00:32:04
just had the advantage over us basically
00:32:06
and and what we do isn't isn't I don't
00:32:09
want to say bulletproof cuz it wasn't
00:32:11
bulletproof but but it's not that's not
00:32:15
like we take away some of the risk but
00:32:17
you don't take away all of it you know
00:32:18
well there's always going to be some
00:32:19
unnown there isn't there yeah um Al so
00:32:22
so how long had you had you been in the
00:32:23
place and then what's the training
00:32:25
that's involved in becoming a member of
00:32:26
the Armed Defender Squad
00:32:28
um so I joined in
00:32:30
2019 I think graduated
00:32:33
September um and I did my um AOS
00:32:38
selection course
00:32:40
um I think it was it February I think it
00:32:43
was February
00:32:46
2022 so it was yeah it was about a year
00:32:48
and maybe 3 four months in to the job
00:32:51
but that was all I kind of wanted to do
00:32:53
once um once I found out about the AOS n
00:32:58
Defender Squad my whole intention of
00:33:01
joining the police was to go down that
00:33:02
route so once I kind of ticked all the
00:33:05
boxes I needed to on being front line
00:33:08
PST the first selection that came around
00:33:12
I just chucked in my application and
00:33:14
thought buger give it a correct and
00:33:17
what's what's bu give it a correct
00:33:20
what's of what's of trainings involved
00:33:22
with
00:33:23
that um so they do so each district will
00:33:26
do a so each district has their own
00:33:29
Squad so Oakland will run a essentially
00:33:33
a one-day selection process and it's
00:33:35
just soort without giving it all away
00:33:38
that's um there's like some exams
00:33:40
scenarios and physical aspects of it um
00:33:44
like pack work and resilience um
00:33:47
exercises so you do the one- day
00:33:49
selection course and they the Oakland
00:33:52
Squad then will like let's say if
00:33:54
there's 25 people that apply for it and
00:33:57
do the course they might take three or
00:33:59
four that they think are these are the
00:34:00
ones that would want um on our Squad so
00:34:04
then you get sent down to Wellington um
00:34:08
all the districts send down their their
00:34:10
applicants and you do a 4-day selection
00:34:13
course and that one's that one's a bit
00:34:15
more in depth and yeah it's a lot of you
00:34:18
know you're not getting much sleep and
00:34:21
they just really work work you
00:34:24
down mentally and physically and you
00:34:27
know you're not getting too much food
00:34:29
and your sleep's limited and then
00:34:31
they'll put you through scenarios to
00:34:33
make sure that even in that state you're
00:34:35
still making right sound decisions
00:34:38
essentially sounds like a mini sort of
00:34:40
version of like hellick that they have
00:34:42
in the Navy Seals yeah probably not as
00:34:45
as as as hardcore but a lot of it's more
00:34:49
like you want have it's more around your
00:34:52
decision making um because that's a big
00:34:55
aspect of the police you know we not
00:34:58
going out there just trying to kill
00:35:00
people you're trying to actually
00:35:01
preserve life so you have to have make
00:35:03
sound decisions um and they're just
00:35:06
testing you for you could you
00:35:09
could come off a work at night shift and
00:35:14
then just goes off for an hour and then
00:35:15
get a call out and you the expectation
00:35:18
is you're should be making the right
00:35:20
decisions after that and that's what
00:35:22
they do through the selection process is
00:35:24
just basically break you down and then
00:35:27
Chuck you through scenarios to make sure
00:35:30
you don't [ __ ] up too badly yeah were
00:35:33
there any other like memorable jobs or
00:35:34
anything that you're involved with what
00:35:36
does like an average week look like for
00:35:37
an a guy well it's
00:35:40
part-time um so we sort of had our ba so
00:35:44
our kind of our normal jobs and the AOS
00:35:47
was just a part-time gig so there were
00:35:50
there were guys on Squad that were
00:35:51
detectives or had climbed the ranks and
00:35:54
were in management roles or there was us
00:35:56
that were still working front line um
00:35:59
but then when a call out would come in
00:36:01
or a job was planned You' then go to
00:36:03
that um so it's a real real variety of
00:36:08
of people that are on Squad you know you
00:36:10
could someone that you'd be sort of
00:36:13
calling sir and Senior Sergeant but once
00:36:17
they come on to an AOS job and if
00:36:21
they're not running the job and they
00:36:22
just in the stack with you you know
00:36:24
they're you feel like oh we're just the
00:36:26
same you know um yeah so it's kind of
00:36:29
hard to tell to say what it looks like
00:36:31
because it it wasn't fulltime you know
00:36:33
everyone's day to-day looked looked a
00:36:35
lot different to each others and what do
00:36:38
you miss about the
00:36:40
job um anything I I'd be lying if I said
00:36:44
I didn't miss it um I missed
00:36:48
the I missed like every now and then
00:36:51
when I see like the um the Deltas so the
00:36:56
the dog units or or a cop car with its
00:37:00
license arm I'm going to a job you kind
00:37:02
of get that fomo you know you feel like
00:37:04
you're wonder what they're going to and
00:37:06
what you're missing out on but um no I
00:37:10
actually don't miss it as much as I
00:37:12
thought I would but sort of since I've
00:37:15
come out you know yeah kind of realize
00:37:19
kind of did everything that I wanted to
00:37:20
you know I didn't really want to be a
00:37:23
detective or I didn't want to climb the
00:37:25
ranks um I got to see some action so
00:37:28
that my next move was well what's best
00:37:32
to sort of set the family up and it was
00:37:34
probably leaving and going into kind of
00:37:35
like the private sector in corporate
00:37:37
world it's probably quite
00:37:40
um there'll be a strange answer for a
00:37:42
lot of people that you see you see
00:37:44
sirens and you get fomo but to me I
00:37:46
think that's a good answer cuz the
00:37:48
alternative to that is like you you you
00:37:50
go into like pdsd or panic mode or get
00:37:53
all triggered when that happens and
00:37:55
that' be being on high alert like that
00:37:57
would be no no sort of way to live your
00:37:59
life so when did the therapy journey
00:38:01
start um so straight afterwards I was I
00:38:05
was fine um I did my psychologist
00:38:08
appointments and I think I didn't really
00:38:11
I didn't deal with it properly straight
00:38:13
afterwards you just sort of ticking the
00:38:14
boxes or yeah I kind of tick the boxes
00:38:16
and because I was still working in in
00:38:19
that environment you know I had to be in
00:38:20
that mindset of um you know I can't
00:38:24
really let
00:38:26
myself get into that state because if a
00:38:29
job comes up tomorrow I need to be
00:38:31
switched on and ready to perform
00:38:33
essentially um and this was sort of an
00:38:36
area I touched on before not kind of
00:38:39
handling it well with Jess you know like
00:38:41
I'd be like around openly say oh yeah it
00:38:44
was the best job of my life and she's
00:38:46
there you're a [ __ ]
00:38:47
idiot like you nearly you nearly died
00:38:49
and you're hear going on about how was
00:38:52
the best job that you've been to and
00:38:55
like just like so Blas about what
00:38:58
happened without actually taking into
00:39:00
account like she nearly lost everything
00:39:02
you know um and here I was I did nearly
00:39:06
lose everything but it was still I was
00:39:09
doing the job that I like to do and it
00:39:11
was something that I wanted to do um
00:39:12
where she had a lot more to lose so yeah
00:39:15
so it was fine at the beginning um and
00:39:17
then it wasn't until I left and um the
00:39:20
beginning of March and it was was it
00:39:24
yeah it would have been around March and
00:39:25
Guy Forks weekend where guy Fork started
00:39:29
and I just started noticing that I was
00:39:32
starting to get like flashbacks and
00:39:35
starting to have dreams about the
00:39:37
incident um just like about the things
00:39:39
that you saw and yeah the things I saw
00:39:41
and it kept kind of coming back every
00:39:43
time I was hearing um every time I was
00:39:47
hearing like at that time was the
00:39:49
fireworks I could just picture us back
00:39:51
at the door staring at the it just be
00:39:53
like a very clear image of us back there
00:39:57
standing at the door looking at a black
00:39:59
space um getting
00:40:02
shot and at first I was like ah like
00:40:05
whatever it will it will go and classic
00:40:08
just park it um move get on with it um
00:40:13
but it kept kind of going on for a
00:40:14
couple of weeks and then I started
00:40:16
noticing like it wasn't just fireworks I
00:40:19
heard loud bangs or car backfire um or
00:40:23
looking at um looking at construction
00:40:26
sites started to
00:40:28
trigger
00:40:30
um even seeing like at this point our
00:40:33
second daughter was born and sort of
00:40:37
seeing my oldest daughter interacting
00:40:40
with our little one so whether they were
00:40:42
like there was one occasion where there
00:40:44
were um Frankie our our little one was
00:40:47
lying on the ground and Florence was I
00:40:49
just walked in and happened to see
00:40:50
Florence was sitting next to her talking
00:40:53
to her and without even realizing that
00:40:56
kind of triggered me and I just started
00:40:59
feeling like this real tight feeling in
00:41:00
my chest and um Palms were getting
00:41:03
sweaty and that was kind of when it
00:41:06
started to sink in that [ __ ] I could
00:41:08
have like been missing all of this um so
00:41:12
just sort of started to talk to Jess and
00:41:15
just said oh I think I might just go
00:41:16
back to the psychologist just
00:41:19
to just
00:41:21
to get on to it now you know I'd hate
00:41:24
for it to boil up till um when I'm 50
00:41:28
and then it really all comes out and and
00:41:31
I can't control it at that point that
00:41:33
was quite smart rather than just
00:41:34
bottling it up yeah it was I was nervous
00:41:37
as [ __ ] to go you know like I don't know
00:41:40
and I think this is of what I said to
00:41:42
you when I messaged you you know it's
00:41:43
it's embarrassing you know and it
00:41:45
shouldn't be but for us as guys to
00:41:49
actually open up about our feelings and
00:41:51
talk about how we feel which I've never
00:41:53
done never done before you know I talk
00:41:56
to Jess about things but if I didn't
00:41:59
feel like I like really needed to I'd
00:42:02
just kind of gu it would be like oh
00:42:05
well she'll be right even even with your
00:42:08
your partner I think um oh this is a
00:42:10
generalization but I think most guys
00:42:12
it's like you don't want to burden your
00:42:14
partner with it or you don't want them
00:42:15
to worry or Panic so you probably keep
00:42:18
some stuff shielded because you think
00:42:20
you're doing the right thing by them
00:42:22
yeah but you're not no no 100% you're
00:42:24
not yeah yeah so that was um and I
00:42:28
haven't this is like this is the first
00:42:30
time I've really openly talked about it
00:42:33
you know I've talked to my I I
00:42:35
eventually opened up about it to my
00:42:37
parents um and yeah even my mates didn't
00:42:42
really don't really know um it wasn't
00:42:45
until we had a bit of a catch up
00:42:49
um with the guys that were involved in
00:42:51
the incident this was after I'd left the
00:42:53
police and we CAU up with them and I
00:42:54
actually said to them I'm going back to
00:42:56
the like colist I've just started to
00:42:59
notice I'm getting these triggers um and
00:43:01
they were super supportive um well quite
00:43:05
thankful that my team leader on the
00:43:07
day um he's a really good nice guy and
00:43:10
and another one of our team leaders who
00:43:12
sort of runs the squad um right from the
00:43:16
get-go they they've been on squad for a
00:43:19
while so you look up to them and they
00:43:20
were right from the get-go super open
00:43:22
with you know they go to a psychologist
00:43:25
and they highly recommend it and and
00:43:27
keept going on and on about it so that
00:43:29
that made me that without them knowing
00:43:32
that when the trigger started happening
00:43:36
I keept thinking oh yeah well if these
00:43:38
guys um are going and they're happy to
00:43:41
talk to me about it and I look up to
00:43:42
them like it goes it's fine to go well
00:43:46
that's um yeah that's how I ended up
00:43:47
with Janet Redmond on the podcast that
00:43:49
was you talked about she's on the style
00:43:51
Bender movie um and I thought if if
00:43:54
Israel is okay talking about this stuff
00:43:57
um then then it made me feel more sort
00:44:00
of comfortable as well made it seem more
00:44:02
accessible in a way yeah yeah that's
00:44:04
tough though yeah yeah and and I just
00:44:07
sort
00:44:07
of sort of my main reason why and this
00:44:12
is coming out of like even talking about
00:44:14
it is out of my comfort zone you know
00:44:16
but my main um reason for reaching out
00:44:19
and ended up changing my mind with when
00:44:21
I originally said no no to to coming on
00:44:25
was to if I can sort of
00:44:28
encourage one or two of the men and
00:44:31
women that are in the police you know my
00:44:33
my advice would be like it's the [ __ ]
00:44:36
that they're having to go to and deal
00:44:39
with is not normal um and I wish now
00:44:42
when I was
00:44:43
in I took advantage of the the services
00:44:47
that they do offer even if I didn't feel
00:44:49
like I needed to um I if I was to go
00:44:53
back I would have probably um just catch
00:44:56
up with a psychologist even if it was
00:44:59
just once every 3 months just to see if
00:45:03
there's anything that sort of needs to
00:45:04
be dealt with um yeah just front foot it
00:45:08
yeah yeah you've even SE I've picked up
00:45:10
you've seen something um maybe two or
00:45:12
three times in this chat which um to
00:45:14
like to me isn't normal where you talk
00:45:16
about that job as being you like the
00:45:19
best sort of the best job you've you've
00:45:21
ever been on I'm sort of paraphrasing
00:45:22
here there'll be people listening to
00:45:24
this that are probably thinking um you
00:45:26
know how how can he say this when when
00:45:28
this guy killed two of his colleagues
00:45:31
but yeah from your perspective is it is
00:45:33
it because you you know it could have
00:45:35
been a lot worse and you
00:45:37
guys um you guys you guys Steed what
00:45:40
could have potentially been like another
00:45:41
Christ
00:45:42
Church yeah I think well yeah how how do
00:45:45
you explain that yeah it's it's hard to
00:45:47
explain like I think it's because it's
00:45:50
what what you trained for you know like
00:45:55
it was it was our time to like his
00:46:00
actions and what he decided to do we
00:46:02
have no control over you know whether we
00:46:05
win or not um at the end of the day he
00:46:07
was going to go and do that you know so
00:46:09
for us it was we were given the
00:46:12
opportunity to put our training into
00:46:15
into actual use and to deploy um so it's
00:46:19
probably more from that that perspective
00:46:21
you know it was um cuz I remember when
00:46:24
we were driving in I remember being
00:46:26
nervous and and it was it was nerves of
00:46:30
holy [ __ ] it's time to switch on and we
00:46:34
need to perform you know like your
00:46:35
pregame nerves or before you're going to
00:46:38
compete in something you're nervous
00:46:40
because you want to execute and perform
00:46:42
mhm and that was the feeling that we had
00:46:44
was this is what we trained for
00:46:47
um it's it's happening and we now need
00:46:51
to step up and perform on the day um
00:46:56
yeah yeah it's hard it is hard to
00:46:58
explain yeah but I mean I I can yeah I
00:47:01
can I can understand it um I mean it
00:47:04
could have been a lot worse and the fact
00:47:06
that you guys were there so quickly like
00:47:07
I remember that morning clearly I was
00:47:08
running around that way and it was um it
00:47:10
was alarming the whole the whole sort of
00:47:11
Central City was in lockdown yeah the
00:47:13
day of the FIFA World Cup starting yeah
00:47:15
yeah that's right so the timing wasn't
00:47:17
wasn't great um but yeah I don't know
00:47:21
I've got so much respect for the so much
00:47:25
respect for the
00:47:27
Frontline men and women of the police
00:47:30
that also ran into that building because
00:47:31
we weren't the only ones in there you
00:47:33
know before we got there it was your
00:47:36
Frontline staff that ran in there
00:47:39
without
00:47:40
hesitation
00:47:42
to to deal with it you know like they're
00:47:45
the ones
00:47:46
that yeah to me they're the real heroes
00:47:51
in this because they only get limited
00:47:55
training you know whereas we get we are
00:47:59
open to so much more training and it's
00:48:02
expected that we're going to respond to
00:48:05
these instances but for them to not have
00:48:08
the same caliber of training that we get
00:48:10
and to
00:48:11
still run into that building hearing
00:48:14
gunshots as victims and to put
00:48:17
themselves on the line to try and save
00:48:19
those people uh I don't know I just
00:48:22
constantly take my head off head off to
00:48:25
them so what's your relationship with
00:48:27
therapy like now is it an ongoing thing
00:48:29
or are you in so I'm still going um so I
00:48:33
actually go every week so I have been
00:48:34
for last few
00:48:35
months
00:48:37
um yeah definitely still unpacking it um
00:48:41
like soort of
00:48:44
now kind of I don't know on the journey
00:48:49
if my psychologist is listening should
00:48:50
we pleased I threw that word in
00:48:54
there um cuz it's not like me to talk
00:48:56
about me being on a journey or anything
00:48:58
like this did you um did you have to go
00:49:00
through many before you find find the
00:49:01
right one like no I've been with one the
00:49:03
whole time okay yeah I um I I didn't go
00:49:08
through anything um like traumatic or
00:49:10
any sort of like particular triggering
00:49:11
event like you did but um I probably
00:49:14
needed therapy for a long time before I
00:49:16
went to one I don't know why I was so
00:49:17
nervous about it it's you look back and
00:49:19
it's dumb right it's dumb it's like a
00:49:21
personal trainer for your for your head
00:49:23
basically it's nothing to be scared of
00:49:25
but um yeah I was really reluctant and
00:49:27
kept on sort of putting it off it's good
00:49:29
and a lot of people said to me oh you
00:49:31
may go and the first therapist you see
00:49:33
you may not Jael and you may have to try
00:49:35
a couple of others um before you settle
00:49:37
on one so it's good that you found one
00:49:38
straight away yeah she's she's good she
00:49:40
out public CA ways and she's thankfully
00:49:42
she's done a bit of work with the
00:49:43
Defense Force so when I first went to
00:49:45
her I didn't have to explain what my job
00:49:48
was and she also saw my wife and she
00:49:51
does a lot of work with other wives that
00:49:54
are in the military and um so she also
00:49:57
so she knew what what we did and from
00:50:01
Jess's perspective what she probably
00:50:03
would have been dealing with from um the
00:50:06
wife's side of it um so it's just easy
00:50:10
and yeah so it's still work in progress
00:50:13
um a lot more open to talking about it I
00:50:17
still feel embarrassed at times um not
00:50:20
talking about it yeah and I don't know
00:50:22
why you know I think it's you for a for
00:50:26
us
00:50:27
I don't know for a guy to openly be
00:50:29
vulnerable and put his hand up and say
00:50:32
that oh no I do need help to sort of
00:50:34
unpe something um yes very nice feeling
00:50:39
I'm I'm the same it's like the uh the
00:50:41
podcast I did with um Janet Redmond um I
00:50:45
I I didn't even listen to that before
00:50:47
like posting it and sharing it because I
00:50:48
just thought if I if I over analyze it
00:50:50
I'm just not going to share it yes cuz
00:50:51
it's and it shouldn't be but it it it
00:50:53
feels
00:50:54
embarrassing yeah and I don't know what
00:50:56
exactly like what why you pinp put I
00:50:59
think it's just cuz you're
00:51:00
not like I don't know I was you know
00:51:04
you're you're not raised as a man you
00:51:07
know to I just get on with it kind of um
00:51:11
just feels like if you show
00:51:12
vulnerability you don't have your [ __ ]
00:51:13
together which is completely untrue yeah
00:51:16
an AB way to think and I've heard you
00:51:18
talk about it in your other podcast
00:51:20
before you know to actually be
00:51:22
vulnerable it's looked at as a weakness
00:51:24
but it's actually a strength um so but
00:51:27
it's all very well telling yourself to
00:51:29
look at it in that perspective that to
00:51:31
actually believe it um is another story
00:51:34
but yeah so all still working work in
00:51:36
progress um like I said going sort of
00:51:39
every every week or two weeks um find it
00:51:45
helpful yeah there's definitely been
00:51:47
like we've kind of got to like the real
00:51:50
what um Stacy would refer to my
00:51:53
psychologist as the real tumor of it all
00:51:56
now and and a lot of it is around like
00:51:58
closed doors and um which makes sense
00:52:01
right because obviously the the crunks
00:52:04
of the incident was around the closed
00:52:06
door when it all happened so
00:52:08
it's yeah it's just processing every now
00:52:11
and then I I'm finding that I'll walk
00:52:13
past or in in the house I'll be one of
00:52:17
our doors will be closed and it'll be
00:52:18
dark behind it and I feel I start
00:52:22
looking at the door and looking well if
00:52:23
the door opens this way I'm exposed to
00:52:26
it so I start to feel quite panicky and
00:52:30
and get a bit anxious around it
00:52:34
um yeah so that's sort of what we're
00:52:36
working through at the moment but she
00:52:38
always says that we're we're we're
00:52:41
making progress so just take a word for
00:52:43
it yeah are you um are you proud of
00:52:46
yourself and how far you've come in the
00:52:47
past year yeah I am actually yeah yeah
00:52:51
um like I never would have thought I'd
00:52:53
be in this position of openly talking
00:52:57
about like my feelings or um sort of how
00:53:02
the incident has impacted me
00:53:04
psychologically um so I was think of
00:53:08
probably sort of like just growing up a
00:53:10
little bit um with it
00:53:14
yeah yeah that's really cool it's cool
00:53:18
it's a yeah and what about your wife is
00:53:20
she proud of you she forgiven you yeah
00:53:22
yeah yeah she's forgiv me now and we and
00:53:24
I and I've gone like afterwards we've
00:53:27
had really good conversations since and
00:53:29
I've apologized to her and um she's been
00:53:33
super super supportive through this
00:53:36
whole thing and actually came with me um
00:53:39
we went
00:53:41
back uh would have been a few weeks ago
00:53:44
now um maybe about four four weeks ago
00:53:46
we went we actually went back to the
00:53:48
site me and her which was um who is just
00:53:53
just Jess and I okay um yeah so so this
00:53:57
there was probably a good good bit of
00:54:00
exposure therapy and that was sort of
00:54:01
once I started to her I said that was my
00:54:03
goal I wanted to I wanted to go back we
00:54:06
I had been back so immediately after the
00:54:09
shooting um we probably a couple weeks
00:54:13
after we actually went back to the site
00:54:14
once it was all cleaned up and but at
00:54:16
that stage I sort of was so Blas about
00:54:20
the impact that it was actually having
00:54:22
on me that it was fine um so it was
00:54:25
actually quite a big
00:54:26
since IID started getting my triggers
00:54:29
and going back to the psychologist to
00:54:32
actually actually go back so I was
00:54:34
finding that I was purposely avoiding
00:54:36
the area you know like would go out we
00:54:39
my wife's 30th birthday we went out for
00:54:42
lunch in the vict and um I remember
00:54:46
saying to her beforehand like I'm [ __ ]
00:54:48
scared you know to like what if we um
00:54:52
see commercial Bay um and the whole time
00:54:56
we were there I just everyone was having
00:54:59
a few drinks and and you start kind of
00:55:03
over over thinking like oh you know
00:55:05
people going to have a few drinks and
00:55:06
then they're going to want to some
00:55:09
reason walk by commercial Bay and I'm
00:55:11
like oh like what am I going to do you
00:55:12
know like I don't want to I don't want
00:55:14
to go back there and um so it was a big
00:55:17
step and I'm proud that um that I did go
00:55:21
back and we went and just had a coffee
00:55:24
me and her we got a coffee and we sat on
00:55:26
a bench um directly outside where we ran
00:55:30
into um into the construction site and
00:55:32
we just sat there for we set a timer for
00:55:34
20 minutes um just sat there
00:55:38
and was vulnerable and talked to each
00:55:41
other and talked it through and um yeah
00:55:45
it was [ __ ] hard yeah there was a um
00:55:49
there was a a little girl we was sitting
00:55:52
on the bench and this there wasn't much
00:55:54
of a gap between the bench and maybe
00:55:56
like a meter and a half to the kind of a
00:55:58
wall that went into the entrance and
00:56:00
this little girl around my daughter's
00:56:02
age
00:56:04
um and I remember saying Jess like oh
00:56:07
that Bloody little kid but she walked
00:56:09
and stood directly in front of the
00:56:11
entrance way where we were sitting and
00:56:13
looking and she's boiling her eyes out
00:56:16
and all I could picture was Jess's here
00:56:19
with Florence and that's where I died
00:56:21
you know and so I yeah broke down and
00:56:25
got upset and I was like why do that
00:56:28
Bloody kid have to stand right there
00:56:32
like I was having a good day go back to
00:56:34
your mom like yeah but yeah just just
00:56:37
process and since I've actually been
00:56:38
back um quite a few times and and have
00:56:41
had no issues and um yeah God you you
00:56:45
love um you you're painting a picture of
00:56:48
someone that loves um like like running
00:56:50
towards the fears a rather than sort of
00:56:53
you cowering or avoiding
00:56:55
them lot about a lot about your
00:56:57
character it's actually something that
00:56:58
we haven't got into as well as your um
00:57:00
your physical stuff like you're you're a
00:57:01
tough [ __ ] um you do Iron Man events
00:57:04
you do 24-hour runs Ultra marathons that
00:57:07
sort of stuff so you love um you putting
00:57:09
yourself in in difficult scenarios and
00:57:11
you willingly putting yourself in the
00:57:13
pain cave so I think I think that speaks
00:57:14
a lot about you have you um were you
00:57:17
much of a crier pre this or were you a
00:57:19
very emotional person no like obviously
00:57:22
at at like funerals like um my granddad
00:57:27
passed away you know you you'd get a bit
00:57:29
upset and yeah yeah the birth of your
00:57:32
the birth of your first daughter yeah oh
00:57:34
yeah 100% yeah um second one yeah but
00:57:38
I'd NE I'd just never talk about yeah
00:57:41
like how I was actually feeling about
00:57:42
things you know sort of I wasn't that
00:57:47
kind of a guy you know and yeah just
00:57:49
sort of coming around now to and that's
00:57:51
I just really encourage other people
00:57:53
that are storing the police to just it's
00:57:55
fine you know like the [ __ ] they're
00:57:57
going to it's expected that's going to
00:57:59
have a toll you and there's so many
00:58:00
things I wish that I did was more open
00:58:02
to it in the past um but no I wasn't a
00:58:06
very I wasn't I was very much
00:58:08
emotionally detached um
00:58:12
previously it's lucky that you went this
00:58:14
way cuz I suppose it could have been
00:58:15
just as easy to you know um numb
00:58:17
yourself with you know alcohol or drugs
00:58:19
or you know something something less um
00:58:23
productive as what counseling is and
00:58:25
actually dealing with with the root of
00:58:26
the problem yeah yeah I'm not a massive
00:58:29
massive drinker but it's not to say that
00:58:30
you don't go down that path right but i'
00:58:33
I've definitely found running has been
00:58:36
um the only way at the moment to when I
00:58:40
get the panicky feeling in my chest to
00:58:42
get rid of it is to go for a run um
00:58:46
which last week was it was actually a
00:58:49
really bad it was a bad week like so I
00:58:51
had a psychologist appointment and then
00:58:53
usually I'll go for a run afterwards cuz
00:58:56
I find that that's when it's kind of the
00:58:57
most raw the kind of panic um chest
00:59:00
feeling that I get is right after during
00:59:04
the during the session so I always go
00:59:06
for a run afterwards and that instantly
00:59:09
usually gets rid of it but last week was
00:59:11
the first week that it hasn't got rid of
00:59:13
it um and I actually panicked and kind
00:59:15
of freaked out a little bit cuz that was
00:59:17
my was The Cure yeah it was my way to
00:59:19
get rid of the rid of the feeling so I
00:59:22
was texting Stacy like oh can I see you
00:59:25
tomorrow like and it lasted way longer
00:59:28
than it usually would have so so that
00:59:31
wasn't overly Pleasant um but so I ended
00:59:35
up going back in the next day had
00:59:36
another session and that that that did
00:59:38
help but yeah when you realize that what
00:59:42
you use as a tool to kind of help get
00:59:45
rid of the feeling for whatever reason
00:59:48
doesn't work you feel like you don't
00:59:51
really then have control over it yeah I
00:59:54
suppose it's another additional layer of
00:59:56
like vulnerability it's like f yeah yeah
00:59:58
yeah you're like [ __ ] now it's hanging
00:59:59
around and and like what about
01:00:01
nightmares and stuff any of them I get
01:00:03
the odd dream yeah
01:00:06
um but yeah it's just mainly
01:00:09
um it's mainly flashbacks when I he
01:00:12
gunshots or loud bangs um like I went
01:00:16
out with a few of um some mates the
01:00:19
other weekend and we went and played
01:00:21
down in onetto down down south golf for
01:00:23
the weekend and obviously being made
01:00:26
that's duck shooting season and we were
01:00:28
out in the
01:00:29
country so for the whole round there was
01:00:32
people were duck shooting and there's
01:00:34
all these gunshots going off and oh it's
01:00:37
the hardest round of golf I've ever
01:00:39
played cuz every every time I hear the
01:00:42
bang it's just a vivid flashback of us
01:00:44
standing at the door getting shot um do
01:00:48
do you talk to your mates about it that
01:00:50
you're playing golf with or no I didn't
01:00:52
no I didn't didn't then um afterwards
01:00:55
I've talked to one of them about it um
01:00:57
why not you just didn't want to bring
01:00:58
the party down or it was just sort of
01:01:01
like it wasn't anything new at that
01:01:04
point you know it was like we had been
01:01:07
we sort of had a um had
01:01:10
a yeah it's been ongoing for the last
01:01:13
few months that it wasn't as if I maybe
01:01:16
would have said something I don't know
01:01:18
maybe would have said something if that
01:01:19
was like the first time it started
01:01:21
happening but because I was already
01:01:23
dealing with it I was like what I'm
01:01:25
that's the normal at the moment still
01:01:28
one yeah did you yeah that's the main
01:01:32
thing um you you have you got uh some
01:01:35
friends that you have that sort of
01:01:36
relationship with where you can talk
01:01:38
about stuff or did you did you not have
01:01:40
that relationship and you have it now or
01:01:42
is that still a work on it's hard isn't
01:01:44
it cuz you you can get to the point
01:01:45
where you're comfortable with being
01:01:46
vulnerable but then you have to get your
01:01:47
friends up to speed as well if they're
01:01:49
not on the same page I'm quite thankful
01:01:51
that one of
01:01:52
my um a couple of them I've I have
01:01:55
properly opened up about to now whereas
01:01:57
I wouldn't have before
01:02:00
um yeah so a couple of them that I run
01:02:02
with it was real oddly enough we were
01:02:05
out with one of them um he's a good mate
01:02:08
and we were out running and it was I we
01:02:11
put the kids to bed and gone for a run
01:02:13
so it was like we're running in the
01:02:15
middle of the bush with at like 9:00
01:02:17
p.m. at night um and that was saw the
01:02:20
first time that he said something that
01:02:23
that kind of made me realize oh okay
01:02:26
here's an opportunity for me to talk
01:02:28
about what I'm going through with him so
01:02:29
I fully opened up to him and that was
01:02:31
the he was the first person this was
01:02:33
only a few weeks ago he was the first
01:02:35
person that I've really apart from my
01:02:38
family openly spoken about it um and
01:02:42
since then there's been a couple others
01:02:43
that I've that I've spoken to and so
01:02:46
obiously this is the bigger picture of
01:02:49
what's going on and um yeah so getting B
01:02:52
at it it's cool and you're often fun
01:02:55
with your friends that's like a
01:02:56
vulnerability exchange he so if you rip
01:02:59
the Band-Aid off and start having some
01:03:01
real talk rather than just like lied b
01:03:04
um it lets them know to Safe space and
01:03:06
that's what ended up happening like he
01:03:07
also talked about some stuff and yeah it
01:03:10
was working you know we're out out on
01:03:12
the bush running up um camp slaten out
01:03:14
Clevon no one's around just following
01:03:16
your head torch and having a proper
01:03:20
conversation you know which which
01:03:23
usually yeah wouldn't have done in the
01:03:25
past yeah and and um I'm not sure if
01:03:28
this is a discussion you and your wife
01:03:30
have had or not but um what do you tell
01:03:32
your daughters or when do you tell them
01:03:34
or so Florence obviously our oldest one
01:03:37
is very switched on so she's nearly four
01:03:39
she'll be four in July and she's very
01:03:42
switched on and she doesn't know
01:03:43
anything um obviously Frankie wasn't
01:03:46
born at the time um I can't even
01:03:50
remember like when I came home from
01:03:51
hospital that night Florence was at home
01:03:54
with my parents and I I can't actually
01:03:56
remember what what we said to her but we
01:03:59
but she definitely doesn't know what
01:04:02
what's what actually happened too young
01:04:04
to process it anyway eh yeah and like we
01:04:06
were very cautious of when we were
01:04:09
talking about it in front of her like
01:04:11
would never say shooting or anything
01:04:13
like that would just say the incident um
01:04:15
if I was talking to someone else about
01:04:17
it
01:04:19
um yeah well it was funny enough we
01:04:21
actually just and I talked about it
01:04:23
saying like I would would I ever tell
01:04:25
them you know obviously now this is out
01:04:28
there um jez hey girls yeah yeah D's on
01:04:32
YouTube yeah
01:04:34
yeah um okay well do you want to like
01:04:37
look look down the camera because I mean
01:04:39
the way YouTube works this this will
01:04:41
linger around for a while so maybe this
01:04:43
is something they can see one day I I
01:04:44
reckon I've never never met these little
01:04:47
girls but I'd say they'd be so proud of
01:04:48
you yeah I hope yeah I hope so yeah um
01:04:52
what you
01:04:53
say oh put me on the spot now um I'd
01:04:58
just like to say that you know I'm
01:05:01
grateful that I get to be around to see
01:05:03
you guys grow up and and hope that you
01:05:06
get to see that it's all right to be
01:05:09
vulnerable um and talk about your
01:05:11
feelings and
01:05:14
um yeah and and I think the way
01:05:17
that me and um their mama raising them
01:05:21
at the moment we are very much creating
01:05:24
that safe space for them
01:05:26
to come to us and talk to us about
01:05:29
things
01:05:30
so yeah to the Future girls love you oh
01:05:34
I'm getting emotional here
01:05:36
this yeah I'm sure you were you were um
01:05:40
a great dead before but this is like
01:05:41
just a new layer of Sam Clark right yeah
01:05:44
really cool puts in the perspective
01:05:46
what's important right yeah and what are
01:05:49
you what are your goals for the
01:05:51
future
01:05:52
um like workwise or personal or probably
01:05:57
yeah personal I think um just being the
01:06:00
best version of yourself yeah just sort
01:06:02
of keep keep kind of on this journey
01:06:06
there we go dropped it twice
01:06:09
um is she giving you a discount every
01:06:12
time you say it yeah yeah well the
01:06:13
police are Pain still so Oh that's oh
01:06:15
that's fantastic yeah yeah so they they
01:06:18
they cover um essentially for the rest
01:06:21
of for Jess and I um if it's in relation
01:06:25
to the incident they'll it's covered for
01:06:27
the rest even though I've left so really
01:06:30
grateful and thankful to to have that
01:06:32
opportunity um yeah what what sort of my
01:06:35
sort of just keep continuing on this
01:06:38
journey and um sort of got some like
01:06:43
Fitness events that I want to do and
01:06:45
sort of trying to make sure I'm around
01:06:47
for the girls more often and
01:06:50
prioritizing like now I can actually
01:06:52
prioritize family over work um so making
01:06:55
the most of that
01:06:59
um yeah and and I've actually and since
01:07:02
we've started talking now I'm actually
01:07:04
enjoying telling my story and um so it'd
01:07:09
be cool to sort of keep going down that
01:07:11
Avenue as well um yeah it's a it's a I
01:07:16
mean it's a hell of a story and a hell
01:07:17
of a thing to go through and I think a
01:07:18
lot of people can learn a lot uh from
01:07:21
what you've you've been through and um I
01:07:23
think we were talking about this before
01:07:24
the podcast um started so you're
01:07:26
training for a 24-hour race in Ro later
01:07:29
this year and um yeah everyone gets the
01:07:31
same amount of hours in the day
01:07:32
regardless of who you are so you're
01:07:34
you're doing most of your running
01:07:35
training at night yeah for the most part
01:07:38
I wait till very much trying to fit it
01:07:40
around the family so put the kids put
01:07:43
the girls to bed and then we'll go out
01:07:46
and run for an hour hour and a half um
01:07:48
then get up early to go to work um yeah
01:07:52
I got doing the Blue Lake 24-hour
01:07:54
challenge in September
01:07:56
so it's essentially down in um roroa the
01:07:59
Blue Lake there's a 6K trail that runs
01:08:02
around and it's essentially as many laps
01:08:05
of it as possible in 24 hours um so I've
01:08:09
got that and then there's an event in
01:08:12
March next year called Northburn 100
01:08:15
have you heard of that yeah
01:08:18
100K 100 it's a mile so it's 160 K down
01:08:21
in Cromwell with 10,000 M of elevation
01:08:25
so it's more than Everest and elevation
01:08:28
um so me and a buddy are that's our main
01:08:32
goal for next year is to do that but
01:08:36
yeah we'll see if I can keep getting
01:08:37
permission from Jess to go train it's a
01:08:40
big commitment
01:08:41
so oh you got a good one there um but
01:08:44
she must be um on the flip side of that
01:08:46
like she must be proud of um you know
01:08:48
you coming closer to Reaching Your
01:08:50
Potential like um yeah this is probably
01:08:53
an unexpected layer of Sam Clark that
01:08:55
she didn't know she was getting when she
01:08:57
married and she's like I everyone says
01:09:01
about their wife like she's incredible
01:09:02
she truly is you know like she's always
01:09:06
um before we had kids and I was working
01:09:09
shift work and the police she was like
01:09:12
the minute we have kids um like I want
01:09:15
you to try to get a Monday to Friday CU
01:09:17
it be easier and I'm like yeah yeah
01:09:20
sweet yeah yeah so then we have a kid
01:09:22
and I'm like I'm going to join the armed
01:09:24
Defender Squad and
01:09:25
and be on call every second week and get
01:09:30
called out in the middle of the night
01:09:31
and and um add all this extra work and
01:09:34
keep working shift work and um and she
01:09:38
even though that's wasn't her ideal what
01:09:40
she she thought was going to happen she
01:09:42
was always supportive and should never
01:09:44
she never would turn around and say oh
01:09:47
no I don't don't want you to do it you
01:09:49
know like if I'd set my mind that this
01:09:51
was what I wanted to do um cuz they have
01:09:54
it really tough you know like when when
01:09:57
we're on call there's been times that
01:09:59
it's 5:00 at night you're halfway
01:10:02
through cooking dinner she might have um
01:10:06
Florence in the bath and a call out
01:10:08
comes in and you're like
01:10:10
well like sorry but I I need to go and
01:10:13
you literally drop everything and go and
01:10:15
she has to pick up all the pieces and um
01:10:19
so she truly is incredible and has
01:10:22
always been supportive with any career
01:10:24
decision that made made yeah and I mean
01:10:27
it may not may not feel like this from
01:10:28
um the perspective of um you the police
01:10:31
or the AOS guys but um from a Partners
01:10:33
perspective even though it's a slim
01:10:35
chance there's still a chance that every
01:10:36
time you leave the house you may not
01:10:38
come back yeah 100% And that's for all
01:10:40
the guys and girls that are in the
01:10:42
police yeah like and they like we get to
01:10:46
do what we enjoy and it's our job but
01:10:48
they're the ones that in general get
01:10:51
left behind at home um and they've got a
01:10:55
lot on the line you know to lose yeah
01:10:59
yeah um is there anything that we
01:11:01
haven't ticked off that that that that
01:11:04
you're going to be in the car after this
01:11:05
and go [ __ ] I wish we talked about that
01:11:07
or I wish I took that off um anything
01:11:09
anything left
01:11:11
unsa no I think that's that's for the I
01:11:14
wouldn't mind talking about the work
01:11:15
that I'm doing oh yeah yeah you're a
01:11:19
consultant now yeah so still working so
01:11:21
still got a full-time job at the moment
01:11:23
but I've started up a a sort of like an
01:11:26
emergency management consultancy
01:11:29
business so there's a lot of work and
01:11:33
sort of I talk through my experience in
01:11:36
particular around being involved in the
01:11:37
shooting and and an active armed
01:11:39
Defender situation
01:11:43
and essentially created some training
01:11:46
packages that get provided now to um
01:11:50
like your retail facilities and retail
01:11:52
stores cuz there's a lot that they can
01:11:55
do and have a responsibility that they
01:11:58
can prepare themsel for worst case you
01:12:02
know like we look at Sydney um the Bondi
01:12:06
Junction active arm Defender you know at
01:12:08
the Westfield
01:12:11
um they I know that that Westfield has
01:12:14
had this particular training through
01:12:15
another company and so they were as
01:12:18
prepared as possible there's a lot that
01:12:20
we can do for our retail centers and
01:12:24
crowded places in general um so yes I've
01:12:27
sort of started up a consultancy
01:12:29
business to try and upskill management
01:12:33
of facilities on how to take command and
01:12:35
control of the incident um and how to
01:12:38
then transition over to police because
01:12:40
there's a lot that they can do and a lot
01:12:43
of decisions that they can make that can
01:12:46
save lives and prevent more people being
01:12:49
injured so there's that aspect of it and
01:12:52
then we part of it also dives into
01:12:55
actual employees on the floor you know
01:12:58
educating them and giving them Awareness
01:13:00
on what to expect and what's our natural
01:13:03
um our natural reaction when something
01:13:06
unfolds um just sort of upskilling them
01:13:09
and and it's interesting now that I've
01:13:10
kind of researched more into it it's
01:13:15
there's a a look at it now and a lot of
01:13:18
the things that we say people are going
01:13:20
to do in situations when they react when
01:13:24
I reflect back on on our active arm
01:13:26
defender inulin in July there was all of
01:13:29
that stuff was there you know like we
01:13:31
had they talk about the the natural
01:13:34
human responses of fight flight freeze
01:13:37
and these days they talk about filming
01:13:40
so people will because of our we've got
01:13:42
our phones they just freeze and will
01:13:44
film you know so we had when we arrived
01:13:47
at the incident we had um probably about
01:13:52
40 school kids not too far away from the
01:13:54
construction site that were filming us
01:13:56
getting out of the car let alone there's
01:13:58
gunshots clearly being heard in a
01:14:00
construction site and their reaction
01:14:02
wasn't to leave the area but to pull out
01:14:04
their phone and and film um so it's just
01:14:08
sort of preparing them around what
01:14:10
decisions they can make
01:14:12
to essentially save their lives their
01:14:15
customers lives and um yeah it's funny
01:14:18
we even had when we were up on level 18
01:14:22
and the rounds were sort of going off
01:14:25
10 met behind us was a construction
01:14:27
worker filming so he's right in the
01:14:30
midst of it and his reaction wasn't to
01:14:33
run but [ __ ] I better pull out my phone
01:14:35
and video this it's got to be good for
01:14:38
Tik Tok followers oh
01:14:41
yeah but like you're like man if that
01:14:43
was me I'd be even if I was down where
01:14:45
the school kids were like a little bit
01:14:47
away man I would be gone like especially
01:14:49
my family was there you know
01:14:52
um yeah so it's just sort kind of
01:14:55
presented a good opportunity to try and
01:14:58
give back from my own experience to try
01:15:00
and upskill and train others on how to
01:15:03
manage the incident and yeah sort of
01:15:07
pass on my experience to them in that
01:15:09
way I love that oh for any uh yeah
01:15:12
business owners or um you know retail
01:15:15
chains that potentially listening to
01:15:16
this that think they could utilize your
01:15:18
services what's the best way to track
01:15:19
you down um so I've just launched our
01:15:22
our website so it's um response rise.com
01:15:26
um we're on
01:15:28
Instagram and yeah just reach out even
01:15:32
if you just want to catch up for a
01:15:33
coffee and talk through what if if if it
01:15:36
will work for you guys or if not um but
01:15:40
yeah I really try and use talk through
01:15:42
my experience with it and um actually
01:15:45
run through scenarios with them so we'll
01:15:48
put someone walking around their
01:15:51
shopping center and actually see if they
01:15:53
can track them on CCTV and
01:15:55
um if what Pas are they doing and
01:15:58
actually practice a free run run through
01:16:00
before the hopefully fingers cross it
01:16:02
doesn't happen but unfortunately one day
01:16:04
when it does happen yeah brilliant well
01:16:09
Sam Clark thank you very much for your
01:16:11
service and thanks for now um sharing uh
01:16:14
your unfortunate experiences which um
01:16:16
ultimately I think have made you and
01:16:18
will continue to make you a better
01:16:20
person no thank you cheers for giving me
01:16:22
the opportunity to openly talk about it
01:16:25
and hopefully it encourages um even just
01:16:29
one of the guys or girls that are still
01:16:31
in the police to go talk to someone and
01:16:33
it's it's normal and it's fine and um
01:16:37
yeah it's a real strength to be able to
01:16:38
do it
01:16:40
so appreciate it great place to end it
01:16:42
yeah thank you cheers
01:16:55
oh
