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we're here today with Deborah Spar
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president of Barnard college and author
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of the book Wonder women sex power and
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the Quest for Perfection Deborah thanks
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for being with us today pleasure thank
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you so you draw a lot about a lot on
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your own experience in the book
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including the opening scene where you
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describe the moment that you realized
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that you were having it all can you
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describe that and some of the
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realizations that stemm from it so this
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is one of these really horrible awkward
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moments that somebody probably shouldn't
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put in a book but I I did nevertheless
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and and the book starts with this um
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rather sad moment when I'm in the ladi's
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restroom at LaGuardia Airport rushing to
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catch a plane and using a breast pump in
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the stall and it really was that moment
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where light bulb went off and and I you
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know realized you know somewhat
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ironically that this was having it all
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this was what it was actually like to
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have a family and be a mom and have a
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career and be a working woman and you
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know I realized that growing up when I
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imagined My Life as a working as a
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working woman this was not the image I
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had and yet this was the image that I
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was living and one of the things that's
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been interesting to me is um all of my
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male friends who've read the book uh
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particularly when they read it in draft
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form said oh please don't include this
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scene because it's just too embarrassing
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and yet every woman who's read the book
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says I was there and I think there there
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is something about these horrible breast
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pumps that it it it is actually
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something that by almost by definition
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every working mother has to encounter
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and she encounters it at a at had a very
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vulnerable moment in her life and in her
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career because it it is these moments
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when you when you realize that you're
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juggling and it's
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hard because you do say I guess one of
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the other things you say in the book is
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that the feminine ideal that you were
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just talking about that you saw when you
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were growing up was the Charly girl in
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the perfume ad who she you know her hair
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is perfect she's managing her children
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she's managing her work and everything's
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going perfectly how do you think that
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cultural image has evolved I mean what
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do you think is sort of the Charlie girl
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of today's generation and what are the
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impacts that she is have that that image
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is having well sadly I think we've made
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no progress and and May in fact have has
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have slipped back in some scary ways
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because I think if you look at the
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images today whether they be in
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magazines and movies on on television
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shows career women are glamorous uh
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they're always beautiful they're
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actresses they're models um they you
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know they may have children and you know
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we we may see some depiction of of
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balancing Acts
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but but they still look like movie stars
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and and they still manag to pull off the
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kids and the career and you know
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certainly if you read magazines um
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you're always getting a very sort of
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glamorized uh view so every female
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politician or CEO that does that you do
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see in a magazine is always made up and
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buffed up and and we see a be beautiful
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uh photo of her in her home which almost
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always has been staged by an entire team
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of interior decorators before they do
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the the photos so we're still see seeing
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these these hyper perfect images of
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working women and and we're also seeing
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still um these hyper perfect images of
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of women as Homemakers you know women
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who are delighted to be vacuuming their
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house or doing the laundry so sadly I
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mean we we don't we actually see fewer
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of the Roseanne bars if you will the
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women really struggling um with working
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life so I I wish there were more
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progress in this area but I don't see
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much MH and I was also um when I was
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reading the book I was remembering a
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college friend of mine recently had a
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baby and she remarked I think it was on
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Facebook that you know multiple people
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after she had her baby said oh are you
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going to stay home and when she said
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that she didn't plan to they were saying
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oh I'm just you know I'm amazed that you
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can juggle it all and that you're doing
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that and then nobody asked her husband
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either of those questions and it kind of
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made me wonder like what to what degree
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these constant discussions of can we
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have it all are we having it all how
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much are they actually perpetuating the
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problem well I hate the phrase having it
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all it's it's a hor phrase I don't know
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who created it but we we need to banish
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it from our vocabulary because it sets
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an expectation that is fundamentally
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impossible no one has it all and if the
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standard is all then by by definition
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we're we're we're all going to fall be
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below it we're all going to fail and
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it's also deeply gendered because when's
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the last time you saw anyone asking a
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man whether he has it all you know we
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just don't do that and and that's really
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this this um this new subtle but but
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very dangerous double standard that I
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talk about in the book that you know
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even in very casual conversation we make
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very different assumptions about how men
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will be parents and how women will be
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parents and they do perpetuate not only
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the stereotypes but they perpetuate a
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guilt because your friend probably is
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already starting to feel some levels of
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guilt you know maybe I should be staying
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home um maybe they think I'm Wonder
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Woman and I'm actually not whereas her
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male husband just is sort of getting on
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with his life without these added levels
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of complexity mhm and yet I mean there
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has been a lot of talk in the past year
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or so um first of all stemming from the
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article written by anarie Slaughter
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arguing kind of that institutions have
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put a lot of roadblocks in the way for
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women in terms of rising up the ranks
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and then also from the leanin book by
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Cheryl sanberg saying that you know
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women sometimes are maybe creating their
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own roadblocks in some ways I mean what
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do you where do you fall in that well I
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between those two books I fall smack in
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the messy middle um because because I I
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think the issues that women face are
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partly of their own making and partly of
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societal making but are mostly just
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complicated and um that's not a need
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answer but I think it's the accurate
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answer and if you think about this
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historically we had the same social
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structures for hundreds if not thousands
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of years and they essentially worked you
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know the man's job was to have a job and
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earn money and provide for his family
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and the woman's job was to bear children
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uh be faithful to the man and take care
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of the home in Marxist terms it was a
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perfect division of labor we turned this
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division of labor upside down for all
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the right reasons to provide women with
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equality and opportunity and and
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Liberation but we haven't really come up
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with a workable substitute for it and
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the work of the home the work of of
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child care has not gone away and so we
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really are left with quite a complicated
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situation and I think it would it's
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actually unrealistic to believe we would
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have solved it in just two generations
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which is what we have so I think now we
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start and we need to have men being part
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of this conversation we need to start
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conceiving of substitutes of new social
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structures and they won't be quite so
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simple as women trying harder because
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that doesn't address the problem and I
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wish they could be as simple as saying
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let's have better State subsidized child
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care but I don't think that's going to
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happen instead I think we need to change
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our expectations not that women can't be
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totally ambitious or competitive but
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they have to realize that all is a bad
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idea um men need to come up with new
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models of fatherhood and I think we're
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starting to get there but men face
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stereotypes as well you know we still
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don't have a great and if think about
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media where's the media hero of the the
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great dad who's also running a
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corporation you know we W with a working
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wife in anything that seems even vaguely
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realistic we need to change how our
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Public Schools function so that they
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make they make it easier for working
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parents we need to change how our
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organizations treat parents um so so
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it's it's a messy set of solutions I
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think we can get there um but I think we
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have to realize that there's nothing
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simple about this we are going through a
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major revolution in social structure and
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there are no easy solutions during
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revolutionary times now A lot of I mean
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at least a lot of the conversation is in
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the media at least or maybe in what you
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know people are hearing about in the
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mainstream is being you know it's coming
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from Academia where you are or where em
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Slaughter is or was
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or it's coming from maybe the CEO's
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office or the you know one of the
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executive office where Cheryl Samberg is
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so what is that I mean what does that
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mean for I mean like low-income women or
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middle income women I mean is it easy to
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tell how can you tell a low-income woman
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that she needs to relax when it might be
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very hard for her to relax when she's
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doing it all I I think um this is a
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really important question and I don't
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think we spend enough time sort of being
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honest about this question I think part
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of it is that all women face certain
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issues that cut across race and
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socioeconomic status and age and I think
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that's the issue of expectations so a
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poor woman of color who's a single mom
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faces massive expectations you know far
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greater than the ones I face you know
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she still is supposed to look look
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pretty and be sexually attractive and
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take care of her kids and bring home
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money and do it on her own so the
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expectations cut across but the workplac
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um environments and the workplace
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problems are quite different and I think
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we have to be honest in saying the kinds
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of things will work for women who are
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trying to become CEOs are very different
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from the women who are working 40-hour a
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week Blue Collar jobs they both have
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problems but they're very different
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problems for the blue collar pink collar
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Workforce um we have to think about pay
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Equity we have to think about uh more
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flexible and more generous maternity
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leaves we have to think about um cheaper
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and more accessible child care for the
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women who are in the higher paid um uh
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sort of hoping to be CEO or or more
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corporate jobs the issues there are less
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about maternity leave
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and more about balance and remaining
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competitive in the workplace the issues
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there are more about whether or not
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women can take time off and then come
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back into the workforce um the issues
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are about embedded sexism in terms of
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how people are promoted through the
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ranks so I think there's a certain
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political correctness and we in which we
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try to lump all women together and I I
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think that's actually blinding us to the
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fact that we we really need to think a
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little bit more sectorally about what
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will help women um and also of
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minorities who face some of these same
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uh obstacles in different different
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sectors of the workforce I mean I
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definitely feel that there has been some
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admission in these discussions you that
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there are some professions that are more
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conducive to say having you know
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achieving that work like a fairly good
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work life balance than others I guess I
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wonder I mean is that okay I mean is it
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okay that maybe banking isn't one of
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them or should there be changes to make
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it so it would be or is there is that
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just not reality I think part of it is
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not reality I mean I think if if you're
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talking about running anything whether
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it be a bank a hospital a television
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station a university these are not
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40-hour flexible Work Week jobs you know
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if you're running an organization it's a
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247 job that doesn't mean women can't do
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those jobs but it means that the women
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who do do those jobs or aspire to those
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jobs have to um either not have children
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or have Partners who pick up the burden
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of the child care or have parents or
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in-laws who are very deeply involved in
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the child care or who manage to have
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their children very early in life and
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then move into those jobs so I think
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women can do them but I think we need to
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be we need to be honest that there are
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certain kinds of jobs that will never be
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part-time Flex time easily manageable I
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also think that it's good to be honest
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and particularly in talking to young
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women and young men that if they if they
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really are committed to having an active
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enjoyable professional career and a
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working spouse and a couple of kids that
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there are some professions or some
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Fields within professions that will give
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them that flexibility and I don't see
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that as as stepping back or leaning out
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or opting out or whatever verb you want
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to use I see it as just being practical
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um you know in my own case I was ready
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to go into the Foreign Service I had
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gotten in I was ready to go um and then
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something in the back of my mind just
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sort of triggered the thought that gee
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you know the it's going to be harder to
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have a family and a husband in the
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Foreign Service and I don't know that I
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ever sort of sat down and worked out the
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math but I went into Academia instead um
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which has given me uh a lot of
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flexibility and a lot of control over my
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own
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productivity now what would you say I
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mean one of your pieces of advice to wom
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in the book is that they kind of should
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relax and realize that the only Wonder
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Woman is flying around in the invisible
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plane somewhere that's right and Magic
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bracelets right and to sort of focus on
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what work instead of trying to have it
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all but I guess I would think I mean I
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think I know too that sometimes that's a
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lot easier said and done I mean how what
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are some ways that how can we really
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divorce ourselves from kind of this need
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to be everything to everyone because I
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really do think it is kind of instilled
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in us very early on like you said it is
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deeply instilled although I think there
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is a moment right now that that that
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these conversations are occurring these
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books are coming out and I think they're
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healthy and I think you know I'm seeing
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myself and I'm seeing other people sort
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of catching
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ourselves um from falling into sort of
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saying and believing silly things like
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the things you were talking about what
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people are saying to your friend oh you
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you know I don't know how you how you do
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it all that's a silly thing to say to
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somebody Nobody Does it all um like
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feeling compelled you know to constantly
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dress up when you're going out to have
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coffee with your friends um like
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constantly feeling that the house has to
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be perfect um constantly feeling that
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you have to bake cookies every single
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time for this for the school bake sale
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so I think I think you know I don't mean
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to trivialize it but I think every
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little step we can take to sort of lower
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the the stress level and be more
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realistic I I think it's very important
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for women who are in positions of some
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prominence to be more honest about the
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trade-offs they've made about the
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mistakes they've made about the hard
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times they have you know if we're all
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out there selling our perfect lives
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we're we're really just perpetuating a
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myth um for the next generation of women
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and that kind of makes me wonder like I
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wonder how much do you think maybe
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social media has almost perpetuated that
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because it's sort of one of those things
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that you see as everybody's out to kind
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of create their brand on that no matter
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what it's horrible I mean I you know I I
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don't spend that much time on social
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media but I'm hearing more and more from
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younger women that social media is not
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only perpetuating these these
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stereotypes but is exacerbating them
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because you know nobody puts ugly photos
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on their Facebook page you know
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everybody puts themselves doing
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something wonderful looking beautiful
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with with glamorous people and jam from
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scratch
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exactly exactly table yeah you know and
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this is this is you I think people
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realize that it's perpetuating all of
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these bad things but it it it really is
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I think sort of a dangerous slope we're
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we're running off here now one thing I
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thought was interesting in the book is I
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mean you're really upfront about
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basically how you've kind of fallen into
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some of this stuff about how you know
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you are just as guilty of this as maybe
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the rest of us are how important was it
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for you to be that honest in the book I
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mean to go through your beauty regimen I
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mean to write about these things and
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just be very
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out there with you know I'm I'm doing
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this too this is happening too um you
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I've never written a book like this
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before I'm I'm a old school academic
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I've written serious uh non-fiction
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academic books so this was really tough
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um to get up the nerve to write but but
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there was an interesting thing that
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happened to me a number of years ago in
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the um the Wall Street Journal asked
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College presidents to write their own
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admissions
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essays and I whipped out something I had
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written in just a horrible moment
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several years earlier when I was having
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one of these terrible days where my
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husband was out of town and my kids were
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sick and the cat brought home a half
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dead chipmunk it was just a horrible day
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but I wrote about it and what was so
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interesting to me was I got an
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overwhelming response to this silly
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little essay because it struck a cord
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with women and I was bombarded with
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women saying oh my God I'm so glad you
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described my day and I actually realized
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that there was a power in telling these
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you know goofy crazy messy stories from
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my life and so I started experimenting
00:16:02
with that that mode of Storytelling in
00:16:05
the book and it did it did I think it
00:16:08
was therapy for me first of all to sort
00:16:09
of put some of this stuff on paper but
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but I think it it worked at some level
00:16:14
and I think it what I've heard from many
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readers of the book is that it sort of
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validated some of their own struggles
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and um and that's been that's been a
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good thing for me to hear it was it was
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scary to put some of this stuff out
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there but I think what I'm what I'm what
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I began to understand when I was writing
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and and have definitely understood since
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the book's coming out is that everybody
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has these stories everybody has the
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breast pump everybody has the moments
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when they're ready to kill their husband
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and their hair is horrible and they're
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you know blowing the presentation cuz
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their kid had the croo last night and I
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think the more we can get these stories
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out there without turning this into you
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know a you know a massive you know SOB
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sobbing event it just normalizes um the
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image of Wonder Woman which is which is
00:16:56
a much better place uh to be than
00:16:58
perpetuating this myth of perfection
00:17:01
great Deborah thank you so much for
00:17:02
being with us today it's been great
00:17:03
thank you
00:17:07
[Music]
