00:00:00
Loney: And so, part of the research you
had done a few years ago
00:00:02
looked at specifically how
self-reliance in women
00:00:06
- Yeah.
- is perceived
00:00:08
kind of in the office setting— and the
potential impact.
00:00:10
Shaumberg: When you think about
self-reliance and what that means
00:00:12
and what that conveys, I always say
it sort of conveyed this inability
00:00:17
to ask for help, this
resistance to others.
00:00:19
I'm from Oregon.
00:00:21
It's kind of like the man in
the woods who doesn't want
00:00:23
to talk to anybody else.
- That's right.
00:00:24
- But that just did not align
with the examples and historical
00:00:28
examples in my own life of women
who I thought of as being highly
00:00:32
self-reliant. Where, in fact,
it wasn't at all a resistance to
00:00:35
community, but it was
a capacity or an agency.
00:00:58
Well, how does self-reliance factor into
potential career success for a woman?
00:01:04
Rebecca Shaumberg is an Assistant
Professor of Operations,
00:01:07
Information, and
Decisions here at the Wharton School.
00:01:09
She has taken a deeper dive
into this area over the years,
00:01:12
and she joins us here in our studio.
Nice to meet you.
00:01:15
Great to have you with us today.
- Nice to meet you, too.
00:01:17
Let's start larger-scale, though. What's
the importance,
00:01:20
do you think, of the component
of self-reliance in general?
00:01:23
Self-reliance is obviously a trait
that I think within the U.S.
00:01:27
we talk about a lot.
It is a cultural value
00:01:30
that especially, for someone like me who
has grown up in the Pacific Northwest,
00:01:32
kind of the frontier states,
00:01:34
it's part of our ethos and our culture,
00:01:36
but it is a trait that is—
00:01:38
tends to be associated
stereotypically more
00:01:41
with men than it is with women.
00:01:44
And I think because of that, our understanding
00:01:46
of what this trait means
00:01:47
and what it conveys— particularly
as it is associated with women—
00:01:50
is not well understood.
00:01:51
And indeed is pretty different from
how it is often thought about,
00:01:55
in terms of its association with men.
00:01:57
And so part of the research you had
done a few years ago
00:02:00
looked at specifically how self-reliance
in women - Yeah.
00:02:04
is perceived kind of
in the office setting
00:02:07
and the potential impact.
00:02:09
When you think about self-reliance
and what that means and what that conveys,
00:02:12
I always say it sort of conveyed
00:02:14
this inability to ask for help,
this resistance to others.
00:02:18
I'm from Oregon. It's kind of like
the man in the woods
00:02:21
who doesn't want to talk to anybody else.
- That's right.
00:02:23
But that just did not align
with the examples
00:02:27
and historical examples in my own life
00:02:28
of women who I thought of
as being highly self-reliant.
00:02:32
Where, in fact, it wasn't at all a
resistance to community,
00:02:35
but it was like a capacity
or an agency.
00:02:38
Something that inspired this work for me was
actually my great-
00:02:41
-great grandmother,
00:02:42
who immigrated to the U.S.
from Ireland.
00:02:45
And she had 11 children, and
on the way, her husband dies.
00:02:49
You know, and ends up in Nebraska
00:02:51
- Oh, wow.
- And, like, makes it work
00:02:54
through the use of community.
- Right.
00:02:56
And I'm like, "That
is a self-reliant woman."
00:02:58
It's like, female homesteaders
in the early 1900s.
00:03:01
Those are self-reliant women,
00:03:03
and that's just not
captured well in
00:03:04
our association
when we think with men,
00:03:06
it's sort of like this self-reliance
and an inability to ask for help.
00:03:09
That's not how I thought
about self-reliance for myself.
00:03:12
It's not how I thought about
self-reliance for the other women
00:03:14
in my life. Indeed, it's not how
other people appear to perceive
00:03:17
self-reliance when it's
communicated or associated with
00:03:20
women, which is just fundamentally
different and means something
00:03:22
very different than when it is,
00:03:24
for instance,
communicated by a man.
00:03:26
So then in terms of the
workplace, then, there are probably
00:03:29
historical patterns in terms of
how this idea of self-reliance
00:03:34
is thought of, in terms of how
it's associated with men,
00:03:39
and it's probably different in how
it's associated with women.
00:03:41
I mean, one is, I think, we
just haven't even thought of what
00:03:44
self-reliance means, or how the
definition of what self-reliance is
00:03:48
changes when it's
associated with women.
00:03:50
Indeed, I think historically in
the workplace, it has been so
00:03:53
male-dominated that our
understanding of these traits and
00:03:55
qualities have often -- particularly
masculine qualities -- have often
00:03:58
been associated—
or we only
00:04:00
see them through that lens,
of being attached to sort of male
00:04:03
employees, as opposed to
00:04:05
when all of a sudden
they're associated and attached to
00:04:07
women, female employees,
they just may mean
00:04:09
something fundamentally different.
- Right.
00:04:11
So tell us a little bit about
the research and what you found out
00:04:14
from doing it.
00:04:15
What I did and what
I was interested in is how, pretty
00:04:18
simply, if you describe a man as
"self-reliant," and you describe a
00:04:22
woman as "self-reliant," do those
communicate dissimilar or different
00:04:25
things? And so you hold everything
constant, which can be challenging,
00:04:29
particularly when you're
studying something like gender.
00:04:31
You take different individuals or
different types of leaders or different—
00:04:34
you describe different people, and you
hold everything constant except,
00:04:37
you know, it a man or a woman,
and do you describe them as self-reliant?
00:04:40
Or for instance, another
trait, like "dominant" or
00:04:43
just something neutral.
00:04:44
And what I wanted to know was when you
describe self-reliance for a man,
00:04:47
does that communicate
something different than for women?
00:04:49
And indeed, like, when you
describe a man as
00:04:51
"highly self-reliant,"
it communicates more
00:04:53
of this inability to connect
with others, a lower what we call
00:04:56
"communality," which is
connection with other people.
00:05:00
And that's just not the case for
women, where in many ways this
00:05:02
self-reliance is orthogonal
or independent of
00:05:05
any association of communality.
00:05:08
So we could say for men,
you describe a man as "highly
00:05:10
self-reliant," people infer
that he's not going to be very
00:05:13
social, he's not going to be very
warm, he's going to be resistant to
00:05:15
working with others.
00:05:17
They just don't make that same
inference when you describe a woman
00:05:20
as "self-reliant."
00:05:21
- Right, and of course when you're
talking about kind of the business setting,
00:05:25
that kind of idea of community,
- Yes.
00:05:27
- especially now,
in the last several years,
00:05:29
it seems like the focus on
community and groups and working
00:05:32
together is even much— a
greater focus than we've seen.
00:05:36
Yes, and I think
what's interesting about that is
00:05:38
normally, if you view
self-reliance, as I said, from this
00:05:41
masculine angle, or as it's
associated with men, you would
00:05:43
think it's— that it would be in
opposition to that,
00:05:46
to sort of a team-oriented
environment. - Right.
00:05:48
- But when you take, as I say,
this more feminine perspective on
00:05:51
self-reliance, it is actually quite
aligned with that environment—
00:05:54
or at least not
in opposition to it.
00:05:56
Is it surprising that there is kind of
that separation of what the
00:06:00
perception is, for
men and women?
00:06:03
On the one hand, yes.
I think with traits, you know,
00:06:06
like self-reliance, dominance,
or even
00:06:07
caring or compassion, we associate
these traits with different
00:06:10
genders. You know, we associate
caring and compassion
00:06:13
stereotypically more with women,
00:06:15
and so when we
hear those traits, we often
00:06:17
then assoc— we have an image
of a woman and
00:06:19
all the stereotypes
that go along with that.
00:06:21
But then what happens when we put
that trait in association with a
00:06:24
man? We assume it means the same
thing, but that's an assumption.
00:06:28
And I think what this work shows,
which I think is a promising other
00:06:32
area of inquiry, is that these same
traits mean something different
00:06:37
when they're associated
with different genders.
00:06:39
And so we can't assume that
the meaning of the word or
00:06:41
the trait stays the same.
00:06:43
Not that it's something
that probably a lot of the C-suite
00:06:46
would be thinking about, but there
is probably a significant business
00:06:50
impact component here that needs
to be investigated so that you can
00:06:54
truly have a better understanding
of how your operation works, the
00:06:57
ways to be able to reach the levels
of success that you want for all
00:07:01
employees across the scope.
00:07:02
What you realize is that
if you start to think about the
00:07:04
traits and qualities that you
would look for in a leader, in a
00:07:08
manager, somebody to lead a
team, a project leader, we have to
00:07:12
understand what these qualities
mean when they're associated with
00:07:15
different genders or different
types of groups of people.
00:07:18
Because if we're saying, "I don't think I
would want
00:07:20
somebody who is is self-reliant,"
00:07:22
because that seems
in opposition to being
00:07:23
team-oriented or being a leader,
that's just not the case of all of
00:07:26
a sudden you're looking for -- if
you mean that—
00:07:28
if you take this more in
this other perspective
00:07:29
associated with women,
how that might mean.
00:07:31
Yeah. Because when you say
"self-reliant," the first thing I
00:07:34
thought of is "team player."
00:07:35
You know, you're not necessarily
viewed as a team player
00:07:39
because if you're
self-reliant, you're able to take
00:07:40
care of things on your own, and you
don't really feel like you need to
00:07:43
incorporate other people
kind of into the mix or the
00:07:47
operation that you're running.
- Yeah.
00:07:48
I think that is the
dominant perception of what this
00:07:51
trait is, but again, because the
dominant perception of this trait
00:07:55
comes from an association of this
trait with men in general,
00:07:59
that we don't know that we realize that
00:08:01
that trait can just mean something
00:08:03
different when we
associate it with women.
00:08:04
And I do think that that is surprising,
00:08:07
but it is less surprising when I
stat to think about
00:08:09
the association with other things like
00:08:11
-- there's a term in cultural
psychology called "horizontal
00:08:15
individualism," which is a
mouthful, but just basically means
00:08:17
that, like, there are views of the self
that you're an independent person,
00:08:21
but you're not better or
worse than any other person.
00:08:24
- Sure.
- And into my own work,
00:08:26
that seems to be
more about what self-reliance
00:08:28
is conveying for
women than it is for men.
00:08:30
So there's probably an
element that, by understanding this
00:08:35
better, you're maybe taking away
some of those historical beliefs
00:08:41
- Yeah.
- that will make
00:08:43
the overall operation
or the overall mindset
00:08:46
around employees and workers in
the company better in the future.
00:08:49
That's what I would hope.
00:08:50
And I think— you know,
what's also interesting to me
00:08:52
with any research
related to gender is
00:08:54
we often talk about it
through the lens of one gender.
00:08:57
- Right.
- So I'm talking about this as
00:08:58
self-reliance as it relates
to women, but I think
00:08:59
this work also sheds light on some
of the pressures that we've talked
00:09:02
about, self-reliance
as it relates to men.
00:09:04
For men, that stereotype seems to
suggest potentially more of this,
00:09:06
like, "To uphold this value of
self-reliance, I'm not supposed to
00:09:09
seek help. I'm not supposed to work
with other people."
00:09:12
And the hope would be:
Could we change the view
00:09:15
of what it means
to have the capacity
00:09:17
to be self-reliant, such that it's
not in opposition
00:09:20
to being able to work well with others?
00:09:22
Even though you did this
research a few years ago,
00:09:25
with all that we've gone through
in the last four years
00:09:28
with the pandemic and
remote work and the
00:09:30
change of dynamics in and around
the workplace and what we know,
00:09:36
I think there's probably
some importance
00:09:38
to having that understanding, even
more so now,
00:09:40
as we kind of move forward in
the years ahead.
00:09:43
I think you're right.
I there there was kind of a
00:09:45
induction of— many of us didn't
want to be, like—
00:09:48
going to Walden and
Thoreau and being by ourselves
00:09:51
during all of that time.
00:09:53
You know? And I think it's
changing.
00:09:55
So some of the benefits of
what we found during that time
00:09:57
of being able to be more in control
00:10:00
and being more agentic over our own
work lives as individuals - Right.
00:10:03
while also still integrating ourselves
within an organization.
00:10:06
And I think in many ways the pandemic
revealed some of that tension
00:10:09
between our own individual agency,
and capa--
00:10:12
and then needing to integrate with
an organization.
00:10:14
And in some ways, my own work
is just showing that own tension with
00:10:16
self-reliance, where, like, it is
00:10:19
both this capacity to be
by oneself
00:10:21
and to take care of oneself,
00:10:23
but that it does not
necessitate not being
00:10:25
able to work well with others.
00:10:26
Having done the work that
you've done up to this point,
00:10:30
where do you want to take it?
00:10:31
Where is kind of the natural next
step in trying to take this next?
00:10:35
- So what this revealed
to me is often sometimes these
00:10:37
traits, they change their meaning and
what they convey
00:10:40
based on who is
possessing that trait.
00:10:42
So describing myself as
self-reliant could be different
00:10:44
from describing my
brother as self-reliant.
00:10:46
And my guess is that there are
other traits like that,
00:10:49
where we think that they might mean the
same thing,
00:10:52
when we describe, for instance,
a man as "dominant"
00:10:54
or a woman as "dominant."
Or if we describe
00:10:56
a woman as "caring,"
or a man as "caring."
00:10:58
But once we associate
those qualities with a
00:11:01
particular gender, the very meaning
of the word could shift.
00:11:05
And so I think it's important
to flesh that out
00:11:07
- Yeah.
- so that when we're talking
00:11:09
about who are we
seeking as an employee,
00:11:11
like, what are the qualities
that we want in a leader,
00:11:14
we have to know what we truly mean,
rather than just using the word.
00:11:17
You know, if I say, "I'm looking for a
self-reliant person,"
00:11:20
or "I'm looking for a dominant person," or
"I'm looking for a caring person,"
00:11:24
I am assuming that that means the
same thing to you as it does to me.
00:11:27
- Yeah. - But then if I dig deeper, and I
say, "Well, what do you mean?
00:11:30
Okay, well, what does
that look like to you?
00:11:31
What is that— can you describe
what that person is like?"
00:11:35
Then I think we have to actually
describe what the person is like
00:11:37
because we realize that just
sometimes using these shorthands or
00:11:40
descriptors, we might not
be communicating what we
00:11:42
intend to communicate.
00:11:43
What do you think this
has meant for you personally,
00:11:46
doing this research?
00:11:47
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I think
about sometimes the challenge.
00:11:50
I mean, obviously right now— and I think
about this in academic research,
00:11:52
but also as it aligns with where
organizations are interested in—
00:11:56
is deeply interested
in issues related to diversity and
00:11:59
having rigorous empirical evidence
00:12:02
one way or the other about,
how we do we
00:12:03
study issues of
diversity in the workplace.
00:12:06
And I think in some ways what this
work has revealed to me is just how
00:12:09
sometimes challenging that can be,
because
00:12:13
even if the very—
we're trying to say,
00:12:14
you know, "Oh, do people judge
dominant women differently than
00:12:16
dominant men?" And that
very well might be the case.
00:12:19
But if what we mean by "dominance"
changes
00:12:23
when we're describing a
woman than a man,
00:12:24
then it becomes
incredibly hard to sometimes study
00:12:27
these very things
that we care about.
00:12:28
- Yeah. I think it's also fun
for you to express the connection
00:12:33
that it had for you personally
- Yeah.
00:12:35
with your grandmother,
I believe you said it was, - Yeah.
00:12:37
- to see that experience and what
that means, you know, in terms of
00:12:41
this research that you're doing.
00:12:43
I think that's where
a lot of research comes from.
00:12:45
And sometimes the research that we're most—
00:12:48
that motivates us the most
as academics, is where
00:12:51
when you look into the
world, and you realize your own
00:12:53
experience is not necessarily
aligning with the things that
00:12:56
you're reading, or the
things that people are saying.
00:12:57
And then that deep exploration
into why is it that your experience
00:13:01
might be different from
what you're reading or what
00:13:03
standard beliefs suggest?
00:13:04
Rebecca, great to meet you.
00:13:06
Thanks very much for coming in.
00:13:07
Thank you very much.
00:13:08
You got it. Rebecca Shaumberg,
who is an Assistant Professor of
00:13:10
Operations, Information, and Decisions
here at the Wharton School.
