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[Music]
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[Music]
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hi I'm Stu Freedman from the management
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department at the Wharton School and I'm
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here today speaking with anarie
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slaughter who is a professor of politics
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and international Affairs at Princeton
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and who wrote the Earth shattering
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article in the Atlantic last year uh why
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women still can't have it all and we're
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here to speak with emry today about that
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welcome emry thank you my pleasure it's
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great to have you here let's start by uh
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a little bit of background on that
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article and what spurred it what was was
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there a critical experience in your in
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your life or in your work that propelled
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you to write that
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piece I would
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say somewhere over the in the two years
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that I spent in Washington as it became
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harder and harder to be working in DC
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with my kids back in Princeton I really
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did feel this sort of ground shifting
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under my feet as I started thinking you
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know I've always believed you could make
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this work work in family but this isn't
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working and so I started thinking about
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you know that writing something about
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that and then I thought well no you know
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this is just me it's just now and so
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probably the event that crystallized it
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was coming back to Princeton and
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starting to give talks just to students
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and they weren't prepared talks they
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were just kind of what was it like in
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Washington and I would start to to a lot
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would start to spill out about how hard
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it was and it was those students and
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then later as I wrote in the article
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Road an audience of young Road Scholars
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who kept saying you have to write this
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and that made me
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decide this is going to be difficult
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it's hard for me to write it may be
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controversial but really for this next
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Next Generation I need to write this and
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we need to have this
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conversation so so the impetus really
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was to to share your story with the Next
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Generation and and and what was your
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your hope your intent or what were they
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asking for why was they were they wanted
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they wanted to open up the conversation
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around work and family and they wanted
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to hear more than what I and so many of
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my peers have been had been telling them
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which is you can do it you know our
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standard response had been you can do it
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it's hard but you can make it work and
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that is of course true for some number
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of women and that is has been true of me
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as long as I stay in a more flexible job
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and I did make it work for two years in
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Washington I just couldn't make it work
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for four much less eight but these
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younger women and men I think in some
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ways are the first generation who've
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watched a whole generation of working
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men in women ahead of them because I
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didn't see working women I'm I'm of the
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generation where I was still first these
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young men and women whether it's their
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own parents or others have seen it and
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they don't like what they see or they're
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scared of what they see or at the very
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least they think you know what people
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tell me and the reality I'm seeing just
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isn't meshing so there is a hunger to
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open this topic back up whereas many
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women of my generation told me after
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this article came out well you know
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that's fine but it wasn't exactly news
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right like we knew this is living this
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we've been we've written these things
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before you could have written this 20
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years ago it wouldn't have been any
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different so every generation has to
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find it for themselves so what what was
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the news if I can follow on that last
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Point what was it that what cord was
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struck I mean why do you think it had
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such a a broad effect and
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readership well I think it I think the
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first thing is I did catch again this
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generational wave and I think many young
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younger women who had been saying to
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each other I don't want to be in a
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workplace and never see my children I
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don't want to have two nannies if that's
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what it takes I want something different
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those women had been talking to each
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other but it wasn't getting it wasn't
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registering in the larger conversation
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they sent my article to their mothers
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sisters aunts mentors every woman I
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think uh who they had talked to as as
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well as to each other so I think that's
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uh a large part of it but I also
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think you know I was drawing aside the
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curtain I did know that I was doing this
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I I I have been enormously successful
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and very fortunate uh and I've been able
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to have great jobs and so from the
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outside I think it looked exactly like
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sure you can have it all you know I have
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two kids and a husband and great some
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great jobs and the fact that I was
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saying you know what actually this
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didn't work the way way I expected it to
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actually I'm having to not continue in a
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job that I would have loved to continue
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in because my kids are at home and and I
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feel like that's more important I think
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it it kind
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of ripped aside the
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um the perfect facade and I know many
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women wrote me with profound relief CU
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even the women who are making it work
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and the men it's hard they're feeling it
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right they're feeling it and they were
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feeling like that was their fault you
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know something must be wrong with them
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they weren't organized enough or there
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something was wrong with their parenting
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or something and I was basically saying
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you know what this is really hard and a
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lot of people are not actually able to
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make it so a lot of people are stepping
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out and that means we don't have that's
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the major explanation in my view as to
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why we don't have enough women at the
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top you said that you became aware that
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the the feminist beliefs on which you'd
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built your career were shifting under
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your feet so were those beliefs wrong or
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were women women of of Our Generation
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sold a bill of goods by early feminists
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or have attitudes changed the world's
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changed what what shifted it's
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interesting I've I've had to think
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really hard myself about what I meant I
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certainly didn't mean that feminism sold
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us a bill of goods feminism is
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responsible and as far as I'm concerned
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for the life that I have I am in total
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debt to the women uh and the men who
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were a generation ahead of me who broke
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barriers and allowed me to dream of a
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career and then have one but
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along the way it never occurred to me as
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somebody as a self-proclaimed career
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woman feminist however you want to see
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it it just never occurred to me that I
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would end up in a situation where I'd
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make the choice I made and that's what
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shifted it was to leave Washington yeah
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to to and the way I think of the choice
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is I'd been there for two years I always
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knew that after two years my public
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service leave would end and that I would
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would go home but then I succeeded well
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enough to be considered for promotion
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and that was the point at which I
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thought you know the old me would have
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said well of course you'll make it work
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I mean this is just you have a dream job
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and that's even more of a dream job and
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generally if your part's in power and
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you have an opportunity you take it
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because you can never promise that'll
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come again and I when it came down to it
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as it was hard but I knew the right
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thing to do was to go home and that is
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not something I had been taught to
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expect of myself in other words it's the
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flip of the 1950s stereotype the woman
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of course is going to you know choose
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her children and put her family first I
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just thought no I'm a different kind of
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woman and I or parent or person it's not
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just a woman and
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I I will make it work but when it came
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down to it I realized you know what
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there's actually something more
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important and as you know ambitious as I
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am as dedicated to my career I'm
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actually a different person than I
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thought I was so your thinking had
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evolved in in light of the the Zeitgeist
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of beliefs about what men men or women
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could possibly do yeah it's hard
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to explain fully but it was it was
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exactly you know I think the best way to
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explain it is I just read an article
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about how we always look back and we
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know we've changed a lot if I think of
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who I was at 20 or 30 or 40 I know I've
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changed a lot but when I look forward I
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assume I'll be the same person at 60 or
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70 or 80 and yet in fact of course
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change and so it was an evolution it was
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a growth but it was one I never would
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have
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expected you've said that there are
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several half truths that that women hold
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here and you write about this in the
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piece uh that it's possible to have it
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all if you're just committed enough if
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you marry the right person if you sequ
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sequence it right what did you mean by
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Hal truths well exactly that they are
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true but not enough I mean there there
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it is certainly true that if you want to
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succeed you have to be committed you
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have to work very hard I mean Cheryl
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sandberg's arguments are right I think
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in many many ways but that's not enough
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and it's also certainly true that it may
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be necessary to marry the right person I
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think it is but it's not always
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sufficient makes a huge difference if
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you don't marry the right person you may
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never get out out of the Starting Gate
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but even with a fully supportive spouse
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and that and I have a wonderful husband
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who is
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completely you know a equal partner more
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than an equal partner
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even so you know you hit situations
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where both of you need to be there or
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you feel you need to be there uh and the
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sequencing it could be right in the
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sense that if we restructured Society in
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the workplace I think it would be quite
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possible to sequence but right now what
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so many women have found is if they opt
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out of the workplace for something they
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might think it's five years eight years
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they can't go back or they can't go back
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in the same way it's not that they won't
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get a job necessarily but but it's not
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as if they pick up as you know that
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associate who was heading toward partner
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or you know that untenured faculty
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member who was heading toward tenure
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they're in a very different world the
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paths are the ba the pathed or different
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very so they're half TRS but there are
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things we cling to because we want to
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believe if we just do this it'll work
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and that's not enough so what can
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businesses do to be supporting employees
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to to be able to live the lives that
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that matter to to them and still
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contribute productively to the economic
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engines of progress in our society and
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businesses specifically um what thoughts
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do you have about that what have you
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been discovering about that as you've
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really taken up the charge in this in
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this Arena this last year Well there I
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mean they're their whole programs the
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one that I think is the most interesting
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is the results only workplace
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environment or row where you effectively
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tell your employees here's what you have
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to do here's the date by which you have
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to do it here's the quality that it has
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to attain and it's really up to you when
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you get it done and how you get it done
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and where you get it done uh which is a
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radical uh change it's not Flex time
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it's no time it's your time um there are
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there are programs like that and they're
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being implemented in some very
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surprising places including some very
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big corporations I actually think the
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most important thing is what I call the
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culture of the presumptive yes which
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is you are completely open to
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experimentation and you let your own
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employees figure out either to singly or
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more likely as teams what they need to
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make it work and then you experiment and
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some of those experiments will not work
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you know a job share really may not work
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a certain kind of flexible Arrangement
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may not work but you're willing to try
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and it's like any innovation
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you know small steps small bets you you
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keep trying and you see what works and
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when it works then you expand it so I
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think the the biggest barrier in the
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workplace is women are afraid to ask and
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Men parents are or caregivers are afraid
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to ask because they're afraid they'll be
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told no but worse still they're afraid
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that they will look like they're not so
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committed to their career so the very
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asking will be a black spot so they
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don't ask so nothing changes uh and if
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the management said hey you let's try
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let's try you tell me what you need and
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let's give it a try and if it doesn't
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work I promise you I will say it's not
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working we got to do something else but
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hey maybe it
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will and those small steps then engender
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a greater sense of confidence and
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confidence in being able to produce
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further changes and and uh and so it
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goes absolutely experimentation um so
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thinking about what we do here at the
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whorton school uh and other business
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schools what thoughts do you have about
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what we ought to be doing to Foster
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progress well in the first place I think
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the idea that if anybody in any student
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in that classroom who would like to
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reproduce let's just put it that way
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wants to have children or uh imagines
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that they're going to want to have time
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for f their family everybody needs to
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think of it as an equal respons
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responsibility and that is an ethos that
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I think we are starting to see among
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many of our younger men that it isn't
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this idea that well you know that's the
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person at home's domain presumably a
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wife of uh but rather this is my
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responsibility how am I going to fit my
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career around it because if we get men
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and women thinking that way or women and
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men I should say that changes the
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dynamic a great deal and of course then
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Young young men start asking questions
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of employers as well and that that makes
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a big change but I think there's even
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something deeper and I've thought about
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this even at the undergraduate
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level we are seeing kids who are more
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programmed and more accomplished than
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ever before they don't have a speriment
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it I have a 16-year-old son and at 16 he
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has little time and if you look at my
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freshman and sophomores at Princeton
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they are scheduled to the minute and I'm
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sure at Wharton it's even greater you
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cannot re Ward cramming every minute of
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your time all the way through high
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school all the way through college all
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the way through graduate school the
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early parts of the workplace and then
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say Oh but now actually family is really
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important I mean that we have to
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start putting our money where our mouths
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are we really have to start saying we
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think it's important to take time now as
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students as faculty we think that hour
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that you have coffee with a friend is
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more important than cramming in one more
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thing on your resume we think calling
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home or we think taking time and I don't
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mean volunteering and doing good works I
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mean cultivating human connection with
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those you love be and at this you know
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as students it's mostly F it's friends
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sure but I've heard students say you
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know I have to schedule in my friends I
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don't have time for my friends well
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later that's going to be I don't have
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time for my kids and that's what again
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Fosters this binary choice voice so I
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think we've got a lot of work to do as
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educational institutions indeed um I
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couldn't agree
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more well what do you think we should be
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telling our kids about what they can
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expect in in their work
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lives well one thing I I think we tell
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them the the future work is changing
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right work over their lifetimes first
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place they'll whole many different jobs
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but work itself will be done in pretty
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radically different ways uh different
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kinds of knowledge work different kinds
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of teamwork uh different kinds of techn
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technologically enabled work so what I
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want to tell them is and as part of that
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less is more a lot of it's creative work
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you will not be able to succeed
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creatively unless you give yourself
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downtime unless you it's not just
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downtime it's different time you need to
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do different things you need to talk to
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cultivate different relationships and
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you should as you think about the
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changing nature of work you should be
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thinking about a very different notion
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of the place of family as part of that
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changing nature and that you will be
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happier you will be more productive you
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will be you will work longer and live
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longer your children will be happier and
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our society will be more competitive and
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so I don't like thinking about it just
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in terms of work family and you taught
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you yourself actually taught me to stop
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saying work life because work is part of
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life and that doesn't work I prefer to
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think of it as Who are the who do we
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want to be as Breadwinners
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caregivers human beings
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professionals so as you think to the
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Future about the Next Generation which
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which clearly is your your motivating
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force behind this work um where does
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where does the brunt of responsibility
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lie is it at the individual level is it
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is it
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institutions uh social policy public
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policy uh where where is the real action
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have to have to come in order to see the
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kinds of changes that you're envisioning
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I think at all those levels I really do
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I do think every individual can be part
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of this change and part of the reason
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I'm writing a book is both to tell the
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stories of men and women have written to
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me and to Showcase Solutions but also to
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say to people if you want to be part of
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this change you know here's what you can
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do for men and women uh I think
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government is going to have to do some
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big things it it just has to if you look
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at the societ societies that make this
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work it isn't an opin situation you know
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there are certain we're going to have to
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move toward Paid Family Leave we're
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going to have to have paid family leave
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and you know yes I understand that
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business says that's an incumbrance but
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you know back
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in the early part of the 19th century
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they thought restrictions on work days
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period were an incumbrance right I mean
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so we're going to have to have some
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really important signals from the top
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from government but I wouldn't wait for
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that uh I would work for it but I
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wouldn't wait for it and the so the in
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between is the workplace and there I
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think a lot of the
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experimentation must take place the
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places that are are doing this kind of
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experimentation have a better chance of
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retention um I think leaders and again
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this is work you've done that I've read
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I mean thinking about total leadership
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thinking about what makes you a good
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worker m are a good leader a good
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professional so workplaces are going to
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have to change things like you know
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schedules and time in the office but
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they're going to have to change cultures
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and that you know good CEOs are always
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about I think many of the best are about
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the culture and the culture now has to
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focus on it essentially has to say you
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were here all night for you know two
00:19:25
months you you're either not managing
00:19:27
your time well and you must be a very
00:19:29
unidimensional person so you know that's
00:19:32
not what we want to reward we want to
00:19:34
reward the quality of your work but we
00:19:36
also want to reward somebody who is you
00:19:39
know able to relate to others to manage
00:19:42
well to understand to manage well that
00:19:43
people need time not they're not just
00:19:45
automatons all those things changing
00:19:48
culture is a a a slog right it takes a
00:19:51
long time uh especially deeply
00:19:54
entrenched attitudes and values and
00:19:57
expect ations the kinds of things that
00:19:59
you're talking about so uh as we're
00:20:02
wrapping up here and what is it that
00:20:05
you'd want to uh kind of convey to boil
00:20:09
it down to as to the to the viewers in
00:20:11
terms of what they can be doing now we
00:20:14
can all be a part of of progressive
00:20:16
change in this area what what's the most
00:20:18
important thing for people to be
00:20:20
thinking about it and doing so I think
00:20:22
the first thing is for for all of us
00:20:25
it's to own what we want not what think
00:20:28
we should want not what you know our
00:20:31
parents expect and or Society or any of
00:20:33
that own what we want and recognize that
00:20:37
if we want both a profession and the
00:20:40
power and dignity of a profession and
00:20:43
the love of family and however family is
00:20:46
constructed that is entirely legitimate
00:20:49
and actually we will be better for it as
00:20:51
our society will be so that's the first
00:20:53
thing and the second is to have the
00:20:55
courage to both talk about it and ask
00:20:58
for change the worst that can happen is
00:21:01
somebody will say no but I think part of
00:21:03
what my article demonstrated was there
00:21:05
were a whole lot of people who are
00:21:06
thinking about like this and you know if
00:21:08
you thought you were alone no the woman
00:21:10
next to you and the man next to you they
00:21:12
were thinking about it too so have the
00:21:14
courage to say I'm G to ask and even if
00:21:18
they say no And even if they think a
00:21:20
little less well of me well you know
00:21:21
that's not what I'm judged on I'm judged
00:21:23
on the quality of my work and I'm going
00:21:25
to keep working so you're no worse off
00:21:27
and you may be much better off
00:21:28
and then I think if you are in
00:21:30
management you have you should be
00:21:34
willing to get out of your comfort zone
00:21:37
so many people tell me all the time well
00:21:39
you know I'm just uncomfortable with a
00:21:41
job share or well that goes against the
00:21:44
idea what are other people going to
00:21:46
think if this woman has a different
00:21:47
Arrangement and that man you know comes
00:21:49
in only four days a week so get out of
00:21:52
your comfort zone that's what change
00:21:53
takes try it and I think you may be
00:21:56
agreeably surprised surprised uh and I
00:21:59
think it may it may lead to then it's a
00:22:01
then it's it's a long slow process but
00:22:04
it's a virtuous
00:22:05
circle thank you emry you're welcome
00:22:08
appreciate your time here today my
00:22:09
pleasure all
00:22:13
[Music]
00:22:26
right
