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we're here today with Stu fredman
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professor at Wharton and author of the
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new book baby bust new choices for men
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and women in work and family welcome Stu
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thanks Jeff it's great to be here it's
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great to be uh here with you again and
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in this conversation that's been going
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on for for decades but is really
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highlighted I think in the discussions
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uh happening today in this new book of
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yours you raised some provocative issues
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about work and family MH uh for today's
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students and also for uh Generations it
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joins a
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conversation uh that's been going on for
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a long time and you know recently we've
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seen comments from Amry Slaughter from
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Cheryl Sandberg uh the actions of
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Marissa Meyer what as I read this book I
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really felt like you were compelled to
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write it sort of what compels you on
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this topic well uh there's a both a
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personal reason and a professional one I
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originally got into this topic area when
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my first son was born Now 26 years ago
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and uh when I met him for the first time
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I was uh overwhelmed by this question
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that I just couldn't get out of my head
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and that was what am I going to do to
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make the world a safe place for him to
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grow up in which was a question that I
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hadn't really thought much about before
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I met him um but I couldn't stop
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thinking about it and so when I got back
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into my Wharton classroom about a week
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or so later later um I I frame the
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question in a slightly different way for
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the students uh future Business Leaders
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of the world how are you thinking about
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the development not so much of talent in
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the Next Generation but of people uh and
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what does that mean for you
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professionally as well as personally in
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your own life and how are you going to
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figure out how to do that in in your own
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world and and that created quite a stir
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in the class because first of all they
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had prepared a case on motivation and
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reward systems and I had put that aside
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for the day and they weren't very happy
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about that but uh some people were quite
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upset about the fact that I was talking
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about family and kids uh others were
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upset because they didn't really want to
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hear about my personal life uh but quite
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a few were really grateful and
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interested in the questions that I was
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challenging them with as I just started
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to rant on this issue completely
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unprepared uh
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and they turned the question around to
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me and said well you know I don't know
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what to do why don't you tell us since
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you're the professor right uh and so
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that began a conversation that's now
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been going on for almost three decades
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now uh that I've had with students
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alumni and Business Leaders government
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officials all over the world so it
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started as a as a very personal question
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for me uh but it very soon became one
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that I could see uh was was important to
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my students uh to our school uh and to
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our our businesses and our society and
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so I I began a research program to try
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to answer some of those questions that's
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fantastic and and I I can absolutely
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relate we think about uh our own lives
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as professionals but also as parents you
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know and I I know I sit across from you
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as a father myself um you're a father
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you have uh you have two sons and a
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daughter and so this this isn't just an
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mic exercise definitely not it's very
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personal who do you really hope reads
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this book um and who might it be
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difficult for well so one of the things
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that we started to do with the Wharton
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work life integration project which we
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started in 1991 was to
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survey uh students and alumni so uh the
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class of 1992 undergrads we asked almost
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all of them responded to hundreds of
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questions about their lives their
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careers their values their aspirations
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their hopes their dreams um and that
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became the the basis for this book uh
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when 20 years later uh we asked the same
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questions of the class of
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2012 and went to explore what we could
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discover about how things have
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changed um and what just popped off the
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the screen as we were looking at the
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initial findings was this this result uh
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in response to the question do you plan
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to have or adopt children yes probably
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not sure probably not or no in 1992 78%
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said yes in 2012 42% said yes yeah I
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scratched my head and thought is can
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that be right and it was uh so then the
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question was why and that's what the
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book tells the story of is is why that
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has uh changed so much the interest in
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having children or planning to have
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children and uh how it's different for
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men and for women and so as you pointed
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out at the start the conversation has
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changed new voices have entered the
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conversation there are new Norms
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evolving among young people and senior
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people about how to integrate the
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different parts of life in a way that
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work when I first started asking these
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questions it was it was very strange to
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be a man asking questions about work and
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family it was almost all women uh you
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know exploring that question but being a
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man at
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Wharton uh talking about families and
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kids it uh it made me kind of uh
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different and strange and so I got a lot
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of attention as a result just because of
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you know who I was not so much what I
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was doing but uh in terms of the quality
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of it uh and and that brought um a lot
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of interest in what we were doing here
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at Wharton and and it's it's something
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that uh you know the school um is was
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highly supportive of uh and being in the
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Vanguard of of uh interest in this topic
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now how is it that uh that that it's
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become difficult for some people to talk
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about I think the the most challenging
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audience uh or the most challenged
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audience would be uh Business Leaders
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and and social policy uh makers because
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what's what we observe in the data is
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that people's attitudes and values have
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changed but our our social institutions
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and our government policies and our
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business practices haven't they are
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still built around a model of family
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that has a single earner uh with with a
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mom at home taking care of the kids and
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that's just not the norm anymore so I
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think it's most challenging for those
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people who have uh you know the most
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responsibility for thinking about the
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direction of those of those institutions
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um so the the really striking statistic
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that you know you open the book with and
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you talk about um this big decline in
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the percentage of people who you know
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percentage of our undergraduate students
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who want to have children or are sure
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they're going to have children um is
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there a gender difference in that
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response no no it's exactly the same for
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men and women so so 78 79% men and women
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92 and then 42 43% for men and women in
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in 2012 I'd like to dig into some of the
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findings yeah right and what you really
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discovered about men and about women
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from from your surveys and your
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conversations one of the things that you
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note is that you're really seeing a
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change in life priorities among men can
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you describe what that what that change
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looks like over these last 20
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years uh men are somewhat more focused
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on career and a little bit less on
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family and that's that's the general
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Trend there um at the same time more men
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who are interested in becoming fathers
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are interested in being more involved as
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fathers uh and they don't see themselves
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as the sole bread winner anymore uh in
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'92 the Gen xers the men
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in that era were still of a mindset that
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was pretty
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traditional uh but today's men we don't
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see that uh they expect their spouses to
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be full-time engaged in
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careers uh they also expect to be
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working a lot more hours men and women
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so the the average number of expected
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hours per week has gone from 58 hours
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per week in ' 92 to 72 in 2012 that's 14
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hours per week more right uh but most
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importantly young men today expect more
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conflict between work and family and
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that's one of the big Inhibitors of
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their willingness to commit to being
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parents because uh it it it's they don't
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see how they can do it uh in addition uh
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the to the extent that they carry a lot
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of student debt that's another factor
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that um constrains men in their
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willingness to think about the prospect
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of having children it's not that they
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don't want it so much although that has
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gone down some the the the idea of being
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a parent it's how do I make it happen uh
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in in light of all these uh new
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pressures sure sure and and you talk in
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the book about students today and I I
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think this applies to both men and women
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they don't expect permanence they're
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leaving they're leaving college and
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going out into the work world uh and
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they have a different view of career
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paths can you describe that a little bit
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yeah uh was quite striking uh now this
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is the generation that were uh in their
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very formative years during
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911 uh and that had a profound impact on
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them and the class of 92 and this came
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through very powerfully in the
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interviews that we did um but in
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addition uh as has been noted by many
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people studying uh the millennial
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generation they are much more mobile uh
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much less you know committed to
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organizations uh and and this particular
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class 2012 they entered College uh as is
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the Great Recession hit so their sense
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of um insecurity about their economic
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Futures is particularly acute uh and all
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those factors lead them to be um more
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interested in moving faster uh into
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career tracks that are going to give
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them security the next question I'd like
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to ask you is about about women yes so
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one of the things that really stood out
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to me was this change in perception
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among young women as they're leaving
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college that it used to be selfish to
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want a career right and now they feel
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like it's selfish to want
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children I mean in the conversations
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that you're having with them um how are
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they how do they deal with um that kind
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of perception that kind of sentiment
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well one of the pieces of what I see as
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good news in this story is that uh more
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people women and men are willing and
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able to say I don't want to have
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children and for women I especially I
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see this as a kind of social progress in
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in human evolution uh every generation
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prior to the current one uh you know
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women have been you know normatively
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sanctioned to think of themselves as
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mothers you know there's almost a a mind
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March into motherhood through throughout
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history that that question hasn't really
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been raised today young women are saying
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I don't feel a need to do that got it
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it's an opening up of choices in some
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exactly that's why the subtitle is new
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choices uh it's not just new constraints
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and and this this there's good news in
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this I think now at the same time there
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are many people who want to have
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children men and women who because they
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don't have support from their
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organizations from our society and these
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are questions I get into in the
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recommendations um you know can't figure
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out how to make it work uh but then
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there are those who are choosing not to
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and for good reasons they don't want it
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and I see this as progress that people
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are able to choose uh to not become
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parents because not everybody wants to
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nor should everyone become a parent sure
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and that that's mirrored as you note in
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the book by um by national Trends as
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well right about uh the average number
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of births per family um and and just
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what's happening within population
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Trends within the country yeah the uh
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the downward Trend in uh becoming
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parents uh you know over the last 20
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years our data kind of reflects National
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Trends sure all right not just not just
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Wharton students absolutely what what
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else feels really important to you um
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about you know we're talking about women
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um for a little bit here what feels
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really important to you about changing
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perceptions um for women today versus
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this study 20 years ago
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women seem to be more realistic about
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what it's going to take to be successful
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in their lives uh and they're more
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interested uh according to our study in
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um friendships in networks and in being
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respected uh in their work and in their
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lives they're also more interested in
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doing work that has uh positive social
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value they want to help others uh more
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than the prior
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generation and one of the Striking
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findings uh that we observed is that the
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more uh that you wanted to be engaged in
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providing social value through your work
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the less likely it was that you would
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become a mother so it's almost as if uh
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there's a competition between serving
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the family of humanity versus the family
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that you might create uh with your own
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children sure and and this links to
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other work that you've done I mean I
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know within your book Total leadership
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you think about the self
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right you think about the family the
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career and the community so for um for
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men and for women what advice do you
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have um to move away from an either or
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mentality either family or career to one
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where you can integrate both of them
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right so in the uh in the
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recommendations uh in the book um baby
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bust I address what do we need to do as
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a society what do we need what
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organizations need to do and then what
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can individuals do and what we have
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found with this total leadership program
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that's also a course here that uh has
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been over subscribed for years now
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there's a lot of young people who are
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interested in it and tackling the
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question of what does it mean for me to
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be real to to clarify what matters most
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to me in terms of my values my vision of
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the kind of leader I want to become the
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kind of world I want to create to be
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whole who are the most important people
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in the different parts of my life and
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what do they really need for me and how
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can I serve them well and then to be
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Innovative to be continually
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experimenting with how things get done
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and I reserve a special section at the
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end of baby bust for how these uh issues
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and this method can be used by young men
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who uh I find are very confused uh
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because there is a we're in a moment in
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history where uh things are changing and
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changing fast and the models that they
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grew up with are different than the
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models that they want to create and so
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the the total leadership approach
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essentially uh helps you to see what
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matters most to you and then to figure
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out how to take creative action uh
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that's within your control uh that helps
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you to align your actions with your
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values in a way that serves the people
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around you that you care about sure and
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what the experiments are that people do
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uh to um to practice and to develop this
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mindset are uh in pursuit of what I call
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four-way wins small actions that you can
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take that demonstrably improve your work
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your home your community and yourself
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and by trying to do that in the
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laboratory of our course you develop new
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insights about what's possible in terms
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of how to integrate the different parts
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of your life in a way that works for all
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of them and by practicing that and
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seeing what's possible and usually what
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people discover is that they have more
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control and more um sense of agency and
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capacity to bring the different parts
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together they realize that uh that they
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can do that in in you know as they as
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they grow in in different uh parts of
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their career different stages of their
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career got it got it thank you thank
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Youk
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and one of the things that you talked
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about within the book um you presented
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this metaphor right which which also
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resonates to me as I think about
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establishing managing boundaries
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integrating life you talked about the
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double dutch metaphor right you can't
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actually jump two ropes at once um and
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you point to people like Richard
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Fairbanks from Capital One or John
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Donahue from eBay um what did you see in
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their lives and in their careers uh that
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could resonate with today's
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graduates these are two of many many
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examples that are out there that give a
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lie to the myth that you have to
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sacrifice everything in order to be
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successful in your career uh what I have
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seen time and time and time again in my
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own life and in the people that I study
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and work with and consult with is that
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um people are more successful in their
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careers to the extent that they don't
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divest of the of their lives their
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families their communities their
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personal lives you mind body and spirit
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but in fact they are more successful in
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their careers to the extent that they
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invest in those other parts that there's
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Mutual gain to be had and these these
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two executives are just two of many
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examples uh that I've been studying and
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that I'll be writing about in another
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book next year that I hope we can talk
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about um uh so but the common myth there
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is that you have to give up everything
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and it's just not true now that's not to
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say that you know sacrifices aren't
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needed and that you know there's there's
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pain and disappointment of course we all
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face that U but what is possible and
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what I'm hopeful about and what the
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results of the baby bust um research
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tells us is that uh because men and
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women are now more aligned in their
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views about what it takes to make life
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work uh especially dual career
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relationships we're seeing a lot more
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experimentation a lot more working
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together men and women private Public
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Partnerships in creating models that are
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different than the ones that you and I
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grew up with uh and uh demonstrate that
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it it doesn't have to be a zero sum game
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and that uh there are different models
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of career and of family that can work um
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but it's a long slow process cultural
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change is a slog and it takes years and
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years and years and years and it happens
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in part through the stories that we tell
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right well I want to return and we
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started this conversation uh and you
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said look policy makers organizational
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leaders they're some of the folks that
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you hope are reading the book um and
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that they're also the ones responsible
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for leading this kind of change that
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you're talking about uh in the in the
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last chapter of the book you have
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recommendations yeah um so could you
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talk about some of those recommendations
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if you're a CEO if you're leading Human
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Resources practice um how can
00:19:30
organizations start to change to support
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um these kinds of four-way winds
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integrated
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lives it's such an important question uh
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and and it's not just organizations it's
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social and educational policy and then
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it's what individuals can do but for
00:19:45
organizational leaders uh the key is uh
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making flexibility real uh and using the
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power of digital
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Communications technology to enable uh
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real exibility in terms of where when
00:19:59
and how work gets done and most
00:20:02
importantly today in 2013 to um to make
00:20:07
Heroes of the people who are successful
00:20:11
in in figuring out new models for how to
00:20:14
get work done and that is going to help
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us overcome the stigma of flexibility
00:20:19
which a number of researchers uh Joan
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Williams Shelley Carell and others are
00:20:24
writing about and talking about and
00:20:26
demonstrating is still very very real
00:20:29
for men and for women uh for for taking
00:20:32
you know flexible work options it's it's
00:20:34
stigmatized in most organizations and
00:20:35
you you overcome that you help to
00:20:37
overcome that by uh demonstrating that
00:20:41
uh flexibility works and the best way to
00:20:44
do that is to tell individual stories of
00:20:47
people who are successful in both their
00:20:50
work and in the rest of their lives
00:20:52
whatever matters most of them whether
00:20:53
it's family or you know social issues or
00:20:56
religious you know whatever it is it's
00:20:58
not just about kids um and and that's
00:21:03
that's that's an important function that
00:21:05
that businesses can play in addition to
00:21:08
providing uh you know flexible uh
00:21:10
benefits and other kinds of policies but
00:21:13
the real issue is culture and cultural
00:21:16
change and uh again the models that are
00:21:19
promoted as valued will make it E make
00:21:23
it easier for um for others to see ah
00:21:26
well if Jeff can do that well maybe can
00:21:28
try that uh so long as it's going to
00:21:30
help the company and me so it can't be
00:21:33
just about me and my kids and my needs
00:21:36
and you know my emotional state it's
00:21:40
what changes can I make that work well
00:21:43
for me and for our
00:21:45
organization so steu you've you've been
00:21:48
at this for for 20 plus years right
00:21:50
thinking about the work life work life
00:21:52
balance the work life integration
00:21:54
project that you've LED here at the
00:21:56
school um this is obvious a topic uh
00:21:59
that you are that you're deeply
00:22:01
connected to that you're passionate
00:22:02
about um where does it go from here you
00:22:04
mentioned I mean some of the things that
00:22:06
you'll be doing going forward but where
00:22:08
does the research go well one of the
00:22:10
things we want to do is to uh mine the
00:22:13
data that we collected about the class
00:22:14
of 1992 to learn more about how they
00:22:16
have evolved and how they see their
00:22:17
futures um and then I'm expecting that
00:22:20
in 2032 we'll we'll survey that class uh
00:22:24
to see what they're thinking uh and and
00:22:26
we'll be doing more um you know on going
00:22:28
research of of Wharton students in
00:22:30
alumni to just continue to track their
00:22:33
values and their interests in in the
00:22:35
different parts of their lives uh what
00:22:37
I'm most excited about now is uh tonight
00:22:41
we are launching uh the student Advisory
00:22:43
board for the work life integration
00:22:44
project and we've got a couple dozen
00:22:46
students at all levels in both MBA and
00:22:49
undergrad who are really eager to uh
00:22:53
help use this research as a platform and
00:22:57
really as a catalyst for creating a new
00:22:59
kind of conversation on our college
00:23:01
campus and in other college campuses to
00:23:04
invite and um inform young men and women
00:23:08
to start to talk about what these issues
00:23:11
mean for them now because it's clear
00:23:13
that the sooner uh we engage in real
00:23:16
conversation about what our interests
00:23:19
are uh men and women in shaping and
00:23:22
leading the kind of lives we want the
00:23:25
much more likely it is that uh that
00:23:27
those dreams will be f F filled because
00:23:30
no one's going to hand it to these kids
00:23:32
they're going to have to forge it
00:23:33
themselves they're going to need our
00:23:34
help uh and I think it starts with uh
00:23:37
with dialogue informed by research
00:23:43
[Music]
