00:00:00
And the really good news is that
we now have a body of evidence
00:00:03
that shows that when you take
care of the whole person in a
00:00:06
way that serves the interests of
the person, their families,
00:00:10
their communities, and your
business, you can all win. Now
00:00:14
it's not easy to do that, and of
course, there's conflict between
00:00:17
work and the rest of life, and
you've got to deal with those,
00:00:20
having to do with time and other
other constraints. But when you
00:00:25
ask what can be done to make
things better for you and your
00:00:30
family and your community and
our business, people come up
00:00:34
with ideas for innovation that
you wouldn't have thought.
00:00:36
- Welcome to <i>The Ripple Effect</i>,
00:00:38
the podcast that takes
you on a journey through the
00:00:41
minds of Wharton faculty. I'm
your host, Dan Loney, and in
00:00:44
each episode, we'll be diving
deep into the inspiration behind
00:00:47
the groundbreaking research that
Wharton professors have
00:00:50
conducted and exploring how
their findings resonate with the
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world today.
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- The balance between
the time we spend on the job and
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the time we spend living our
lives has been a very important
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area of study for quite some
time now. But just how different
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is that balance now from a
couple of decades ago? Pleasure
00:01:09
to be joined here in studio by
Stew Freeman, who is Emeritus
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Practice Professor of Management
here at the Wharton School. He
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also founded the Work Life
Integration Program, a project—
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excuse me— here at Wharton. And
he's Founding Director of the
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Wharton Leadership Program. Stew,
great to see again, as always.
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Thank you, Dan. So good to be
here.
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Let me start out by—
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because this has obviously been
such an important area of focus
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for you for many years now.
Let's go back in time and— what
00:01:36
was it that first had you
thinking about the importance
00:01:39
and the connection between work
and life?
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Well, I was a graduate student
at the University of Michigan in
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the early '80s. And there, I sort
of minored in the field of role
00:01:51
theory and adult socialization,
and how people figure out how to
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piece together the different
roles that they play in life.
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But my main emphasis in my
research and teaching and
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practice was on talent
management systems and the
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succession and development of
leadership talent in companies.
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But when my first son was born
in the late '80s, I had a very
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profound reaction to his
arrival, to meeting him and
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thinking, "Oh, what do I do now
to ensure that the world that he
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grows up in is one that— will
be one that encourages his
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flourishing, his safety. It was
a question that I hadn't really
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given enough thought to before I
actually met him, but it was— it
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was a question that I couldn't
get out of my head after— after
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that moment. And I asked
everybody— my parents, my
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friends, relatives. And then
when I got back into the
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classroom about a week or so
after that, I asked my students.
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I kind of cleared the deck of
what we had planned to study
00:03:07
that day, which had to do with
motivation and reward systems.
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We were going to do a case on
that. And I said, "You know what?
00:03:13
We're going to put that aside
because there's something else
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that I want to talk with you
about, and that is, how are you
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as future business leaders, going
to cultivate a world in which
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people can be the people they
want to be, outside of work, as
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parents, as whatever— friends,
members of their communities.
00:03:33
And the reaction was intense.
There were people in the room
00:03:38
who were thinking, why is he
doing this when we prepared a
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case for today. And that
was in the days when students
00:03:45
would prepare for class. Sorry.
- Not using ChatGPT, right?
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Well, they were— they were
there, ready to go. And I was
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putting that aside. They
were also saying, like, "This is—
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how's this relevant for us right
now? We're a business
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school. Why are we talking about
children and families and—
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Professor, nobody really cares
about your family. So like,
00:04:07
let's get to— let's get down to
it." But there were others in the
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room who kind of leaned
forward and said, "Yeah,
00:04:17
let's talk about this."
- Right.
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And in response to my question,
00:04:21
what are you going to do as
future business leaders to shape
00:04:26
a new world, one of them said to
me, "Well, you're the professor.
00:04:30
You tell us." - Right.
- And that that caused me to shift my
00:04:34
attention. That's probably more
than you wanted to hear about
00:04:37
the early days of this. But the
late '80s, I shifted my
00:04:40
interest and started to focus
more on— and using what I had
00:04:44
learned in graduate school and
the tools that I had developed
00:04:47
there at the Institute for
Social Research at the
00:04:49
University of Michigan, how
could I study this question and
00:04:53
produce useful knowledge for
people to help them figure out
00:04:56
what it was going to take to
integrate the different parts of
00:04:59
their lives?
- How, then,
00:05:00
have those two elements, work and
life, kind of developed? And
00:05:05
thinking about it from the
corporate perspective and the
00:05:08
employee perspective, how have
they developed in the last 30
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years, to whatever point we are
at right now? And maybe, to a
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degree, where you think we are
going with this?
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That's a great question, Dan.
There's good news and bad news
00:05:25
here. The good news is that the
world has changed in many
00:05:31
positive ways in terms of the
role of women in the workforce
00:05:35
and the increasing authority and
power that women have, which has
00:05:39
changed the dynamics of the
domestic lives of people, and
00:05:46
forced a new kind of questioning
and experimentation with
00:05:52
different ways of approaching
how men, women, everyone figures
00:05:57
out how to integrate the
different parts of their lives
00:05:59
for mutual gain. That became our
challenge and our task. So
00:06:07
today, you have many more young
men interested in having
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fulfilled lives beyond work, and
you have many more women in
00:06:21
positions of authority who are
also helping to drive innovation
00:06:26
and change. What we figured out—
so I started the Leadership
00:06:30
Program at about the same time
that I started the Work Life
00:06:32
Integration Project. And there,
we were developing new models
00:06:36
for how people learn what it
means for them to lead and how
00:06:39
to grow as leaders. 35 years
ago, this wasn't standard fare.
00:06:43
Now it is. And now it's
standard for organizations
00:06:47
around the world to be asking
the question, how do we help our
00:06:51
people grow as people, not just
as elements of our, you
00:06:55
know, components of our
productive machines? They're
00:06:59
more than that. And the
really good news is that we now
00:07:02
have a body of evidence that
shows that when you take care of
00:07:06
the whole person in a way that
serves the interests of the
00:07:09
person, their families, their
communities and your business,
00:07:13
you can all win. Now,
it's not easy to do that. And of
00:07:17
course, there's conflict between
work and the rest of life, and
00:07:19
you've got to deal with those,
having to do with time and other
00:07:23
other constraints. But when you
ask what can be done to make
00:07:29
things better for you and your
family and your community and
00:07:33
our business, people come up
with ideas for innovation that
00:07:36
you wouldn't have thought.
00:07:37
Should I be surprised that maybe
the corporate world has taken
00:07:41
the level of interest that it
seemingly has in this topic,
00:07:45
specifically? Because it feels
like going back decades— and you
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talked about this before— this
was not on the radar of the C-
00:07:53
suite or the corporate world in
general. Now, obviously, it very
00:07:57
much is.
- Yeah.
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Well, back in the day, not
only was it not on the radar, it
00:08:02
was— it was an idea that was
suppressed. And indeed, when I
00:08:07
shifted my focus of research and
practice and teaching to this
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issue, I had people— senior
people— saying, "Stew, what are you
00:08:15
doing? This is a women's issue
that nobody cares about. Why are
00:08:18
you shifting your attention in
this direction?" But I could
00:08:21
foresee that things were going
to be different. I'm not saying
00:08:24
I had a crystal ball, but it was
clear that— that changes in
00:08:29
the roles that men and women
wanted to play in organizations,
00:08:32
and the increasing flexibility
that was going to be possible,
00:08:36
and the supports that we were
seeing in Europe, especially
00:08:39
northern Europe, that were
being provided for people's
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lives beyond work, particularly
their families, was creating
00:08:46
pressure for organizations in
the United States to respond.
00:08:52
And so when I was, you know, a
man at the Wharton School
00:08:57
talking about families and kids
in the late '80s and early '90s, I
00:09:02
was decidedly strange. I mean, I
still am in a lot of ways, but—
00:09:07
but there, I was a distinctive
messenger. Because at that time,
00:09:12
it was almost only women talking
about this issue. And it wasn't—
00:09:17
it wasn't really on on the
radar, as you say, in most
00:09:20
business school curricula. So as
things changed, we have now,
00:09:27
with the advent of the internet,
of course, and then with the
00:09:31
pandemic and the radical shift
to working from home, there's
00:09:38
all kinds of new models for how
to figure out the ways and means
00:09:43
of how we get things done in the
different parts of our lives.
00:09:46
And so to a degree, it's incumbent
on companies to have this as a
00:09:50
component of their health
profile that they will have for
00:09:54
employees, of making sure that
they are doing as much as they
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possibly can for the employee, not
only for the bottom line benefit
00:10:02
of the day-to-day work, but
obviously, the component of
00:10:05
keeping the employee there, who
may be very valuable. And you
00:10:08
don't want to lose an employee
to another company who may be,
00:10:11
you know, a key cog in
your daily mix.
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Yes, and that is the good
news in the story. When I
00:10:19
went, at the end of the '90s,
after launching the
00:10:24
leadership program here and
doing the research on, what does
00:10:28
it take to integrate the
different parts of life for
00:10:30
mutual gain throughout the '90s,
the CEO of Ford Motor Company
00:10:34
hired me to be the Head of
Leadership Development for the
00:10:36
company worldwide. And so I went
there for a few years. Took a
00:10:40
leave from my post here at
Wharton and there, had the
00:10:44
opportunity, with an incredible
support of remarkable executive
00:10:49
sponsors and a great team, we
created a program that we call
00:10:53
Total Leadership, which brought
together what we'd been learning
00:10:56
about the growth of leadership
capacity and the integration of
00:10:59
the different parts of life. And
what we demonstrated there was
00:11:04
that when you help people to
articulate their values— what
00:11:07
they care most about— to be
real, to act with authenticity
00:11:12
by clarifying what matters most
to them, by helping them to be
00:11:15
whole, by identifying who are
the most important people at
00:11:18
work, at home and in the
community, and what do they
00:11:21
really need from you, and what
do you need from them? And
00:11:23
looking at your whole life as a
social system that you can
00:11:27
navigate and influence. And
using that knowledge, that fresh
00:11:31
knowledge in a peer-to-peer
coaching environment to come up
00:11:35
with ideas for innovation that
are designed to produce what I
00:11:39
called a "four-way win"— and that
is demonstrably improved
00:11:42
performance at work, at home, in
the community and for yourself.
00:11:46
People are able to do that. And
they overcome the guilt and the
00:11:50
fear of trying something new
when they realize that what
00:11:53
they're trying to do is not just
for themselves, their families,
00:11:55
their communities, their
businesses, but for all four. So
00:11:59
when you take that view— that
it's possible, if you look— put
00:12:03
on a new set of lenses and look
for ways to make things better
00:12:07
in the different parts and
experiment with that, then you
00:12:11
can actually make those things
happen and get support. So using
00:12:14
leadership principles to create
change, to become a leader that
00:12:19
is capable of producing
sustainable change— because it
00:12:23
works for all the different
parts of your life. And we call
00:12:25
this Total Leadership. For the
last 25 years, I have been doing
00:12:29
that, both in coursework here at
Wharton and with companies all
00:12:33
around the world. And the good
news here again is that our
00:12:36
evidence shows that when you
take this approach, people work
00:12:41
smarter. They're less distracted
when they are at work, and they
00:12:44
actually produce better results
at work while spending less time
00:12:50
at work. Which is a paradox that
my economist friends wonder about.
00:12:55
Are we then going into a time
that requires a little bit more
00:13:00
focus because of the fact
we're seeing companies start to
00:13:03
call people back into the office
full time, and there are some
00:13:07
people that are fighting back
against that, or not staying
00:13:10
with the company, or, you know,
making a choice that— that
00:13:15
balance that they've had for the
last few years, especially
00:13:18
during the pandemic, is more
valuable to them than being in
00:13:22
the office five days a week?
00:13:24
Yeah, having control over your
life is something that more and
00:13:29
more people are claiming. Now in
the current labor market, it's
00:13:34
hard to predict what is coming
forward. But what we have found,
00:13:38
and the evidence is pretty
clear, is that when you trust
00:13:42
people and verify, you know, that
what they're doing is good for
00:13:47
you and for them in their lives,
and you let them know that they
00:13:53
can and should be experimenting
with different ways of getting
00:13:56
things done that are good for
you and for them, and you
00:13:58
measure that, and you support
that, that you're going to get a
00:14:02
big return in terms of retention
and loyalty. But you're also
00:14:06
going to get better
productivity. So the blanket
00:14:10
policies of "Everybody's coming
back, and everybody's got to be
00:14:13
there all the time," I think
that's going to backfire.
00:14:17
Because the norms for today's
workforce are very different
00:14:20
than the ones that I grew up
with and the ones that you grew
00:14:23
up with too, a generation later,
Dan, after me. And— and so, you
00:14:27
know, there is going to be
pushback. But of course, in a
00:14:32
tighter labor market, you know,
it's going to— there's going to
00:14:35
be— it's hard to know. I don't
think anybody can really
00:14:38
predict. But clearly, the trend
is in the direction of greater
00:14:41
freedom, greater sense of
control, greater belief that
00:14:44
people want to be productive in
the different parts of their
00:14:47
lives. And when you give them
the tools and the support to do
00:14:49
that, the returns are great for
your business.
00:14:52
Great topic. Where can people
find out more about the work
00:14:56
that you've done in the past and
how this is progressing?
00:15:00
Well, it's kind of you to ask,
Dan. The Total Leadership
00:15:03
website is probably the best
place to get free information,
00:15:06
videos, book chapters. It's
totalleadership.org, and you can
00:15:10
learn all about our history and
impact there.
00:15:12
Great to see you again. Thanks
very much. Stew Friedman, who is
00:15:16
Emeritus Practice Professor of
Management here at the Wharton
00:15:19
School and founder of the Work
Life Integration project, as
00:15:22
well as the Founding Director of
the Wharton Leadership Program.
00:15:27
Thank you for listening to <i>The Ripple Effect</i>.
We hope you found
00:15:29
this episode informative and
engaging. Don't forget to
00:15:32
subscribe and leave us a review
so that we can continue to bring
00:15:36
you the best insight from the
Wharton School.
