00:00:00
so I think there are some gender
00:00:01
differences and we've seen that um in
00:00:03
some of the data right there I think the
00:00:05
data that I saw most recently about 10%
00:00:07
higher demand from women um for remote
00:00:10
work or hybrid work which makes sense in
00:00:12
lots of ways in this when women are
00:00:14
doing a lot of the home care and and
00:00:15
child care and need that kind of
00:00:17
flexibility welcome to the ripple effect
00:00:19
the podcast that takes you on a journey
00:00:22
through the minds of work and faculty
00:00:24
I'm your host Dan Looney and in each
00:00:26
episode we'll be diving deep into the
00:00:28
inspiration behind the groundbreaking
00:00:30
research that Wharton professors have
00:00:32
conducted and exploring how their
00:00:34
findings resonate with the world today
00:00:36
well the workplace continues to evolve
00:00:38
in the wake of the Corona virus pandemic
00:00:40
and there is obviously a focus on a
00:00:42
variety of elements uh one being is
00:00:45
making the hybrid workplace fair for all
00:00:49
involved there's also a focus on how
00:00:51
much a job internationally could mean to
00:00:53
someone's career pleasure to be joined
00:00:55
here in Studio by Martine hos who's
00:00:57
professor of management here at the
00:00:58
Warton school she is also director of
00:01:00
the Lauder Institute for management and
00:01:02
International Studies great to see you
00:01:04
great to have you in the studio here
00:01:05
today good to see you how you doing I'm
00:01:07
doing very well let's start with hybrid
00:01:09
because I think that's one that's on a
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lot of people's thought process because
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of how things played out with the
00:01:15
pandemic and and where we are right now
00:01:19
we know it's probably going to be around
00:01:20
here long term how much though do you
00:01:23
think around hybrid work is still to be
00:01:26
determined from where we are right now
00:01:29
yeah it's feeling pretty kind of settled
00:01:31
in some ways for a lot of companies in
00:01:33
the sense
00:01:34
of we're kind of relieved it's kind of
00:01:36
working we seem to be in decent shape
00:01:38
right um which you know is good but it
00:01:41
also means we need to be careful about
00:01:42
becoming complacent I think because
00:01:44
there's definitely you know aspects of
00:01:46
it that can use continuous kind of focus
00:01:49
and maybe some tweaking and maybe some
00:01:50
improvements right so we shouldn't get
00:01:52
too kind of you know too too settled in
00:01:55
this but there's no question it's going
00:01:57
to be around for a while in lots of ways
00:01:59
there lots of things about it that are
00:02:00
good right um and there's it's kind of
00:02:02
in many ways a good compromise between
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lots of things that employees want and
00:02:06
have wanted for a long time right more
00:02:08
flexibility less commuting more autonomy
00:02:11
right and things that companies want to
00:02:14
need in terms of having people in the
00:02:15
office at least some of the time right
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so it seems to be a pretty good balance
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but there's there's a lot of issues that
00:02:20
arise that still that need to be
00:02:21
continually kind of worked through and
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it seems like the the and it's not every
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company but the mindset of of certain
00:02:28
seite Executives is very much anti-
00:02:31
hybrid work or remote work and others
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seems to be okay I I I understand it's a
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component that we're going to need and I
00:02:38
don't know if it's a generational
00:02:39
component or what we're seeing play out
00:02:41
here but it is unique that you talk you
00:02:44
hear commentary from some Executives and
00:02:47
they are very much anti-hybrid work yeah
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no it's definitely true they have
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serious concerns about it and that you
00:02:53
know so it adds up to if you're going to
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need to have it because your talent tent
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wants it and your talent has a lot of
00:03:01
power in the labor market then as
00:03:03
managers you got to figure out how to
00:03:05
make sure that that is going to still
00:03:07
meet the organization's needs right um
00:03:10
and so how to put in place kinds of
00:03:11
systems and processes that are going to
00:03:13
help it to work smoothly for everybody
00:03:16
right um and there's there's a whole
00:03:18
there there's a whole set of challenges
00:03:19
associated with that that I think we
00:03:22
still really kind of you know there's
00:03:23
been a lot of just let's carry over what
00:03:25
we were doing before and hopefully it
00:03:26
applies pretty well for hybrid work but
00:03:29
it may be that we need to really kind of
00:03:30
think much more carefully about how we
00:03:32
design our onboarding processes our
00:03:34
mentoring processes our talent
00:03:36
development and it's got of skills
00:03:37
training kind of processes to make sure
00:03:39
that people can really um are really
00:03:42
equipped and really have the skills that
00:03:43
they need and I guess it's going to be
00:03:45
interesting to see play out in the
00:03:46
months and years ahead as to who the
00:03:49
people are within the workforce that are
00:03:52
majority going to be the people that are
00:03:54
are ending up working hybrid obviously
00:03:56
as you said before there's a component
00:03:58
of Lifestyle
00:04:00
and things outside of work that are
00:04:03
allowing hybrid work to be a good
00:04:05
combination but whether or not it is men
00:04:07
or women that see this opportunity as
00:04:10
being
00:04:11
more applicable to what they want to
00:04:13
have in their careers yeah so I think
00:04:15
they're awesome gender differences and
00:04:16
we've seen that um in some of the data
00:04:19
right there I think the data that I saw
00:04:21
most recently about 10% higher demand
00:04:22
from women um for remote work or hybrid
00:04:26
work which makes sense in lots of ways
00:04:28
in this when women are doing a lot of
00:04:29
the home care and and child care and
00:04:31
need that kind of flexibility um but
00:04:33
it's also very much a kind of um time
00:04:35
time of your life kind of thing and that
00:04:37
really you know is a really big deal
00:04:39
that I think we've we've come to realize
00:04:40
a bit more recently so for younger
00:04:42
people more Junior in their careers and
00:04:44
not don't necessarily have families and
00:04:46
that kind of need that kind of
00:04:47
flexibility at that point in their
00:04:49
careers it makes a lot of sense and I
00:04:51
think people have you know those young
00:04:52
people who kind of were like oh it's
00:04:53
going to be great to be on a beach
00:04:54
somewhere no they've kind of realized
00:04:56
right actually there's a lot of value
00:04:58
that they get from being in in the work
00:05:00
in the workplace and if they're not
00:05:01
there they're going to miss out some
00:05:02
stuff they really need like those
00:05:04
mentoring kind of and networking kind of
00:05:06
connections um but then you know midlife
00:05:08
when people have families a lot of other
00:05:09
demands it can you know people want more
00:05:12
flexibility and later in life I think I
00:05:14
suspect it probably diverges a little
00:05:15
bit some people really like being in the
00:05:17
office some people not so much and
00:05:18
there's maybe just more individual
00:05:19
differences I guess we also have to look
00:05:21
at it from the perspective of a person's
00:05:23
career and and where that path is going
00:05:26
to go and if you are somebody that is
00:05:28
working hybri
00:05:30
what potential impact that might have if
00:05:32
you are not in the office 5 days a week
00:05:35
but you're you know working remotely two
00:05:37
or three days a week yeah so for sure
00:05:39
and you know I think as people's careers
00:05:41
evolve it's there's so many good reasons
00:05:44
why people want that that flexibility
00:05:46
they want to be hybrid or they want to
00:05:47
be remote um that we should respect
00:05:49
they're really important right in terms
00:05:50
of the rest of your life right and your
00:05:51
ability to manage manage the rest of
00:05:53
your life but I think it's really
00:05:54
important to recognize that it does come
00:05:57
with some disadvantages and just be
00:05:58
conscious of those doesn't mean you
00:05:59
shouldn't do it right but it does mean
00:06:01
that you are less visible to possibly
00:06:04
your manager who's in the office more
00:06:05
than you are and maybe to everybody else
00:06:07
on your team right they just don't quite
00:06:09
know if you're there all the time or
00:06:10
working as hard as you should be you
00:06:11
don't necessarily have the access to
00:06:13
resources that people have when they're
00:06:15
in the office more of the time and over
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time you know it's probably fine in the
00:06:20
short term right but over time that
00:06:22
might mean maybe you're not really quite
00:06:23
in the loops that you need to be in with
00:06:25
in terms of information maybe you're not
00:06:26
doing your job quite as well or maybe
00:06:28
you are and people just see it right and
00:06:30
maybe you don't get that promotion as
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fast as you might otherwise or whatever
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you don't get the opportunities that you
00:06:34
might otherwise so again you can make
00:06:37
that decision for yourself just make it
00:06:39
consciously right that you're making
00:06:41
that tradeoff um and and you know and I
00:06:43
think managers have to really be
00:06:45
conscious of that too and try to make
00:06:47
sure that they're not they're being fair
00:06:49
and they're not disadvantaging people
00:06:50
who are taking advantage of work
00:06:51
policies that they've put in place and
00:06:53
have agreed they're okay to have in
00:06:54
place well and I guess it becomes even
00:06:57
more of a focus for women because
00:06:58
there're still elements of the workforce
00:07:01
that uh disadvantage women compared to
00:07:03
men so they as you said have to have
00:07:05
that kind of conscious understanding of
00:07:08
the impacts that that could come along
00:07:10
in the terms of where they want to take
00:07:11
their careers yeah and so I think for a
00:07:13
women you know I call this a double
00:07:15
disadvantage right there is we know
00:07:17
there can be a remote work penalty for
00:07:19
anybody who's kind of not in the office
00:07:20
so much especially when other people are
00:07:22
in the office more right if you are a a
00:07:25
woman in a malale dominated industry or
00:07:27
workplace um you know you automatically
00:07:30
probably have a bit of a disadvantage
00:07:32
from that and there's a lot of research
00:07:33
showing that in different ways you put
00:07:35
together the two disadvantages and you
00:07:36
have a bit of a you know potential at
00:07:37
least for a double disadvantage right
00:07:39
you're both remote and you're maybe a
00:07:42
bit more marginalized in the first place
00:07:43
maybe a little bit less likely to be
00:07:45
listen to when you speak maybe a little
00:07:47
bit less likely to be given the best
00:07:48
opportunities or hooked up with the most
00:07:50
senior male mentors or whatever it might
00:07:52
be um and so again over time that couple
00:07:56
double disadvantage could U be a
00:07:58
disadvantage could be a substantial
00:08:00
disadvantage for your career right and
00:08:02
and again women may choose to make that
00:08:04
decision deliberately and consciously
00:08:06
and understand that and still have
00:08:08
really good reasons for doing it um but
00:08:10
but it's important to be aware of it and
00:08:12
it's also I think worth noting it's not
00:08:13
just women I mean I think it's anybody
00:08:15
who might be or feel marginalized in the
00:08:17
workplace in the first place could be
00:08:19
people of color could be people who are
00:08:20
non-dominant language speakers right not
00:08:22
English speakers in an English speaking
00:08:24
company just you can get that double
00:08:26
disadvantage in other ways right it's
00:08:27
just if you're already a little bit
00:08:28
marginal and then you're not in the
00:08:30
office as much those things can compound
00:08:32
and from a career point of view you
00:08:33
should be aware of that well and off of
00:08:35
that because there's there's also been
00:08:36
the conversation as hybrid work has kind
00:08:39
of developed of kind of segmenting your
00:08:41
day like you may not be anymore
00:08:44
traditionally 9 to5 or 8 to4 but those
00:08:47
hours may be spread out over a 12-h hour
00:08:49
window and it makes you wonder whether
00:08:51
or not the people who may end up being
00:08:53
in that double disadvantage feel like
00:08:56
they have to work a longer day in order
00:08:58
to make up for that presence of not
00:09:00
being there yeah and we we know that
00:09:03
that has happened it happened to a lot
00:09:04
of us during the pandemic and you know
00:09:05
hopefully it's eased up for a lot of us
00:09:07
but that sort of sense of being on call
00:09:09
the whole time um is you know is an
00:09:12
unfortunate byproduct I think of kind of
00:09:13
relying so heavily on technology and not
00:09:15
being in the office with clearer um work
00:09:17
hours all the time so yeah it's
00:09:19
something to look at but it's also
00:09:21
important for people who are working
00:09:22
from home I think to recognize that
00:09:25
managers don't see them all the time
00:09:27
during the workday so it's kind of don't
00:09:29
know that they're doing their work
00:09:30
during all the work day so sort of
00:09:31
trying to align their hours with the
00:09:33
manager's hours in some ways is
00:09:35
desirable and the manager should not
00:09:36
take too much advantage of that and be
00:09:38
trying to you know get people to work
00:09:40
you know 12 15 hour days do does
00:09:42
technology hopefully fill in maybe some
00:09:43
of those gaps then in those
00:09:45
circumstances I mean being able to have
00:09:47
a zoom call with your co-workers or does
00:09:50
it does it not do enough do you think I
00:09:53
mean technology you know is a is a
00:09:55
double-edged sword right it's it's great
00:09:56
for a lot of these things it wouldn't be
00:09:57
possible to be doing hybrid work if we
00:09:59
didn't have the technologies that we got
00:10:00
used to during the pandemic it would
00:10:02
just not have happened in the same way
00:10:04
certainly not as fast in terms of being
00:10:05
able to do Zoom calls and being online
00:10:07
all the time just you know and easily
00:10:09
accessible technology has its
00:10:11
disadvantages too right you don't get
00:10:13
the the real kind of cues that you get
00:10:15
from being with somebody face to face
00:10:17
you don't get those side conversations
00:10:19
that you have when you're in the
00:10:20
workplace so it's too easy to think as a
00:10:21
it's a perfect substitute we all know it
00:10:23
isn't we also all know that there's too
00:10:24
many Zoom meetings that's right exactly
00:10:26
right we rely on that technology too
00:10:28
much a little too much you have also
00:10:30
done research looking at the career but
00:10:34
the potential of the benefits or or
00:10:36
impacts of going International uh of
00:10:39
getting a job offer some other place in
00:10:42
the world or working for your company in
00:10:43
another office take us into a deeper
00:10:46
dive on how that is impacting the
00:10:47
dynamic of career right now yeah so um
00:10:51
I'm I've done a a recent study um with
00:10:55
uh my co-authors Matthew Bidwell who's a
00:10:57
a colleague of mine here at Wharton um
00:11:00
and Isabella Isabelle Fernandez Mato
00:11:02
who's at London Business School and gvan
00:11:04
Capone who's in the Netherlands and you
00:11:06
know we we took this big data set of
00:11:09
alums MBA alums from one of the leading
00:11:11
European Business Schools who tend to be
00:11:13
super International and we looked at
00:11:15
their careers over time and how their
00:11:17
International moves affect their
00:11:19
compensation right which turns out you
00:11:21
there's a lot of research on how
00:11:22
International moves might affect your
00:11:24
opportunities but actually they don't
00:11:25
usually look at compensation and so we
00:11:28
were really interested to understand
00:11:29
um what the effects are on pay and we
00:11:32
found some really interesting things
00:11:33
which are kind of you know um there
00:11:36
there's research that says you know the
00:11:37
stuff is likely to be negative you move
00:11:39
internationally and you you know you
00:11:41
kind of lose opportunities you lose your
00:11:43
local networks um it's hard to come back
00:11:46
it's hard to resettle and all that stuff
00:11:47
maybe it's bad there's other research
00:11:49
that says maybe it's good right because
00:11:51
you're gaining all these international
00:11:53
skills and maybe somebody's going to pay
00:11:54
you more for them right we didn't really
00:11:56
know what we found in the study um and
00:11:58
it's a pretty compr prehensive and kind
00:11:59
of carefully done study is that when
00:12:02
people people who have moved once or
00:12:04
twice and this is post MBA um careers so
00:12:06
they their knowledge workers they're in
00:12:08
business careers right um if they've
00:12:10
moved once or twice it's actually
00:12:12
negatively associated with their pay in
00:12:14
the sense of their pay doesn't grow as
00:12:15
fast um as people who haven't moved
00:12:18
internationally and we were a little
00:12:19
surprised there's a negative effect
00:12:21
right um what then we find on top of
00:12:24
that which is kind of even maybe even
00:12:25
more surprising is there are a set of
00:12:26
people for whom these International
00:12:28
moves are really beneficial
00:12:29
but they people that we call Super
00:12:31
globals they're people who have moved
00:12:33
internationally many many times and our
00:12:35
study it's four or more times since
00:12:37
they're MBA and those people get a
00:12:39
substantial pay premium so you know from
00:12:41
a career point of view I think you know
00:12:43
International moves can have positive
00:12:46
implications in all sorts of ways from a
00:12:49
pure pay point of view um first couple
00:12:52
of moves don't seem to have you know not
00:12:54
the not you're not doing them
00:12:55
necessarily because they're going to pay
00:12:57
you the most sure you may be doing them
00:12:58
for other really good reasons right
00:13:00
there are these people who move a ton
00:13:02
super globals who you know are the very
00:13:04
elite kind of end of the of the
00:13:05
international employment spectrum and
00:13:07
they're making a lot of money from it
00:13:09
are those people that end up having all
00:13:12
of those experiences and maybe they are
00:13:13
more relied upon within the corporate
00:13:16
kind of environment of a company they've
00:13:18
seen more they've seen more components
00:13:20
of the company and therefore they can
00:13:21
bring more to the table Yeah I think
00:13:23
that's right so I mean our sense is that
00:13:25
and we did a lot of interviews trying to
00:13:26
understand exactly who who the super
00:13:28
globals are what they careers look like
00:13:29
why they're so valuable it is the case
00:13:32
that you know some companies really need
00:13:34
people who have substantial
00:13:35
International experience right because
00:13:37
of the kind of work they do these folks
00:13:39
have bu built a really unique set of
00:13:41
skills and perspectives and sort of
00:13:43
adaptability and they can COPE in many
00:13:44
different environments they can cope
00:13:46
with a lot of different unexpected
00:13:47
events right they've often demonstrated
00:13:49
that through the way they worked
00:13:50
internationally um and then on top of
00:13:52
that these people are rare right so
00:13:54
there's not that many people you can
00:13:55
find who are going to be able to run
00:13:57
that you know super internationalis out
00:13:59
there so once you as a as an employe you
00:14:02
know as somebody you know to in a career
00:14:05
where you've moved multiple times you
00:14:06
not only have the set of skills but
00:14:08
you're also really rare in the workplace
00:14:09
and so you're not you know going to get
00:14:11
employed for some job that doesn't value
00:14:13
that but for the jobs that do really
00:14:15
value that you can command a premium and
00:14:17
that's what we see in this data and
00:14:19
again it it probably falls back into
00:14:21
that category of being the personal
00:14:23
decision the understanding of what the
00:14:25
components are of that career that
00:14:28
really have to be thought about in order
00:14:29
to kind of take that leap yeah that's
00:14:31
right in some ways maybe that connects
00:14:32
back to our kind of hybrid work
00:14:34
conversation is it's just about being
00:14:35
conscious of the choices that you're
00:14:37
making right and what we do find
00:14:39
especially for people which will be more
00:14:40
people than the super globals right the
00:14:42
people who are thinking about moving
00:14:43
once or twice um internationally in
00:14:45
their in their careers it's about being
00:14:47
conscious of the trade-offs you're
00:14:48
making right and those can be really
00:14:49
good trade-offs or really you know valid
00:14:52
trade-offs to make right are you moving
00:14:54
because you personally value there's
00:14:57
personal enrichment right you love
00:14:59
spending time not just traveling but
00:15:00
spending serious time in different
00:15:02
countries right and having different
00:15:04
experiences and having adventures and
00:15:06
you really want to learn from that are
00:15:08
you moving because there are fabulous
00:15:10
professional opportunities for growth
00:15:11
that are going to kind of expose you to
00:15:13
you know maybe you get to run your own
00:15:14
division or do something that you
00:15:16
wouldn't have been able to do
00:15:17
domestically and do you really want to
00:15:19
maximize your pay and the chance that
00:15:21
those things all go together in at least
00:15:24
in the first you know move or two when
00:15:26
you're relatively Junior in your career
00:15:27
are not super likely probably going to
00:15:29
make trade-offs again just recognize
00:15:31
that that's the trade-off that you're
00:15:33
making and it's totally valid right um
00:15:35
but don't assume that these things are
00:15:37
necessarily all going to align and and
00:15:39
work in your favor so as you say that is
00:15:41
does there seemingly come a point in
00:15:44
that process where people kind of make
00:15:46
that decision that okay I'm G to kind of
00:15:48
be that super Global or maybe I'm not
00:15:50
going to be and that's kind of the you
00:15:53
know whether there's a moment in time
00:15:55
where that kind of Transitions and and
00:15:56
you go one way or the other
00:15:59
yeah I think that probably is for a lot
00:16:01
of people I mean it's somebody who's
00:16:02
moved internationally I said my
00:16:03
co-authors in the study a lot um you
00:16:05
know I think usually at some point you
00:16:08
get to a point where you've most people
00:16:10
get to a point where they've kind of
00:16:11
moved enough and kind of want to settle
00:16:12
at least for a substantial period of
00:16:14
time there are a small number of people
00:16:15
who just love it and Thrive and do
00:16:17
extremely well and keep having these
00:16:19
kind of international opportunities um
00:16:21
that lead them to move but it does it is
00:16:23
interesting I think in the sense of kind
00:16:24
of as you're thinking about the skills
00:16:26
that you want to develop um and what
00:16:28
you're trying to get out of these
00:16:29
different opportunities you know once
00:16:31
you're somewhere you kind of think is
00:16:33
maybe the longer term place you want to
00:16:34
stay you're going to be trying to
00:16:36
develop you know really local networks
00:16:38
and understanding and language and
00:16:41
really settle right um and but if you
00:16:44
think you're going to keep moving that
00:16:46
kind of local knowledge is important
00:16:47
it's probably going to be important for
00:16:48
your longer term jobs too but you're
00:16:50
going to need a different set of skills
00:16:51
on top of that right adaptability and
00:16:53
flexibility and kind of open-mindedness
00:16:55
and Global mindset so you're going to
00:16:56
kind of be adding a different layer
00:16:58
because you're going to you think you're
00:16:59
going to keep moving Martin great to
00:17:02
talk to you great to talk to you too D
00:17:04
thank you Martin hos management
00:17:05
Professor here at the won school and
00:17:07
director of the Lauder Institute thank
00:17:09
you for listening to the ripple effect
00:17:11
we hope you found this episode
00:17:12
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