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so I think there are some gender differences and we've seen that um in some of the data right there I think the
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data that I saw most recently about 10% higher demand from women um for remote work or hybrid work which makes sense in
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lots of ways in this when women are doing a lot of the home care and and child care and need that kind of
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flexibility welcome to the ripple effect the podcast that takes you on a journey
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through the minds of work and faculty I'm your host Dan Looney and in each episode we'll be diving deep into the
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inspiration behind the groundbreaking research that Wharton professors have conducted and exploring how their
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findings resonate with the world today well the workplace continues to evolve in the wake of the Corona virus pandemic
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and there is obviously a focus on a variety of elements uh one being is making the hybrid workplace fair for all
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involved there's also a focus on how much a job internationally could mean to
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someone's career pleasure to be joined here in Studio by Martine hos who's
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professor of management here at the Warton school she is also director of the Lauder Institute for management and
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International Studies great to see you great to have you in the studio here today good to see you how you doing I'm
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doing very well let's start with hybrid because I think that's one that's on a
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lot of people's thought process because of how things played out with the pandemic and and where we are right now
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we know it's probably going to be around here long term how much though do you
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think around hybrid work is still to be determined from where we are right now yeah it's feeling pretty kind of settled
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in some ways for a lot of companies in the sense of we're kind of relieved it's kind of
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working we seem to be in decent shape right um which you know is good but it also means we need to be careful about
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becoming complacent I think because there's definitely you know aspects of it that can use continuous kind of focus
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and maybe some tweaking and maybe some improvements right so we shouldn't get
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too kind of you know too too settled in this but there's no question it's going
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to be around for a while in lots of ways there lots of things about it that are good right um and there's it's kind of
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in many ways a good compromise between lots of things that employees want and have wanted for a long time right more
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flexibility less commuting more autonomy right and things that companies want to
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need in terms of having people in the office at least some of the time right so it seems to be a pretty good balance
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but there's there's a lot of issues that arise that still that need to be
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continually kind of worked through and it seems like the the and it's not every
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company but the mindset of of certain seite Executives is very much anti- hybrid work or remote work and others
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seems to be okay I I I understand it's a component that we're going to need and I
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don't know if it's a generational component or what we're seeing play out
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here but it is unique that you talk you hear commentary from some Executives and
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they are very much anti-hybrid work yeah no it's definitely true they have serious concerns about it and that you
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know so it adds up to if you're going to need to have it because your talent tent
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wants it and your talent has a lot of power in the labor market then as managers you got to figure out how to
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make sure that that is going to still meet the organization's needs right um
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and so how to put in place kinds of systems and processes that are going to help it to work smoothly for everybody
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right um and there's there's a whole there there's a whole set of challenges
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associated with that that I think we still really kind of you know there's been a lot of just let's carry over what
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we were doing before and hopefully it applies pretty well for hybrid work but it may be that we need to really kind of
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think much more carefully about how we design our onboarding processes our mentoring processes our talent
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development and it's got of skills training kind of processes to make sure that people can really um are really
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equipped and really have the skills that they need and I guess it's going to be
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interesting to see play out in the months and years ahead as to who the people are within the workforce that are
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majority going to be the people that are are ending up working hybrid obviously as you said before there's a component
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of Lifestyle and things outside of work that are allowing hybrid work to be a good
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combination but whether or not it is men or women that see this opportunity as being
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more applicable to what they want to have in their careers yeah so I think they're awesome gender differences and
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we've seen that um in some of the data right there I think the data that I saw
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most recently about 10% higher demand from women um for remote work or hybrid work which makes sense in lots of ways
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in this when women are doing a lot of the home care and and child care and need that kind of flexibility um but
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it's also very much a kind of um time time of your life kind of thing and that
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really you know is a really big deal that I think we've we've come to realize
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a bit more recently so for younger people more Junior in their careers and not don't necessarily have families and
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that kind of need that kind of flexibility at that point in their careers it makes a lot of sense and I
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think people have you know those young people who kind of were like oh it's going to be great to be on a beach
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somewhere no they've kind of realized right actually there's a lot of value
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that they get from being in in the work in the workplace and if they're not there they're going to miss out some
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stuff they really need like those mentoring kind of and networking kind of connections um but then you know midlife
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when people have families a lot of other demands it can you know people want more
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flexibility and later in life I think I suspect it probably diverges a little bit some people really like being in the
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office some people not so much and there's maybe just more individual differences I guess we also have to look
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at it from the perspective of a person's career and and where that path is going
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to go and if you are somebody that is working hybri what potential impact that might have if
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you are not in the office 5 days a week but you're you know working remotely two
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or three days a week yeah so for sure and you know I think as people's careers
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evolve it's there's so many good reasons why people want that that flexibility
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they want to be hybrid or they want to be remote um that we should respect they're really important right in terms
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of the rest of your life right and your ability to manage manage the rest of your life but I think it's really
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important to recognize that it does come with some disadvantages and just be conscious of those doesn't mean you
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shouldn't do it right but it does mean that you are less visible to possibly
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your manager who's in the office more than you are and maybe to everybody else
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on your team right they just don't quite know if you're there all the time or
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working as hard as you should be you don't necessarily have the access to resources that people have when they're
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in the office more of the time and over time you know it's probably fine in the
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short term right but over time that might mean maybe you're not really quite
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in the loops that you need to be in with in terms of information maybe you're not
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doing your job quite as well or maybe you are and people just see it right and maybe you don't get that promotion as
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fast as you might otherwise or whatever you don't get the opportunities that you
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might otherwise so again you can make that decision for yourself just make it consciously right that you're making
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that tradeoff um and and you know and I think managers have to really be conscious of that too and try to make
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sure that they're not they're being fair and they're not disadvantaging people
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who are taking advantage of work policies that they've put in place and have agreed they're okay to have in
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place well and I guess it becomes even more of a focus for women because there're still elements of the workforce
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that uh disadvantage women compared to men so they as you said have to have that kind of conscious understanding of
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the impacts that that could come along in the terms of where they want to take their careers yeah and so I think for a
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women you know I call this a double disadvantage right there is we know there can be a remote work penalty for
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anybody who's kind of not in the office so much especially when other people are
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in the office more right if you are a a woman in a malale dominated industry or workplace um you know you automatically
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probably have a bit of a disadvantage from that and there's a lot of research
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showing that in different ways you put together the two disadvantages and you have a bit of a you know potential at
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least for a double disadvantage right you're both remote and you're maybe a
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bit more marginalized in the first place maybe a little bit less likely to be listen to when you speak maybe a little
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bit less likely to be given the best opportunities or hooked up with the most senior male mentors or whatever it might
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be um and so again over time that couple double disadvantage could U be a disadvantage could be a substantial
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disadvantage for your career right and and again women may choose to make that decision deliberately and consciously
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and understand that and still have really good reasons for doing it um but but it's important to be aware of it and
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it's also I think worth noting it's not just women I mean I think it's anybody
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who might be or feel marginalized in the workplace in the first place could be people of color could be people who are
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non-dominant language speakers right not English speakers in an English speaking
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company just you can get that double disadvantage in other ways right it's just if you're already a little bit
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marginal and then you're not in the office as much those things can compound
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and from a career point of view you should be aware of that well and off of that because there's there's also been
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the conversation as hybrid work has kind of developed of kind of segmenting your
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day like you may not be anymore traditionally 9 to5 or 8 to4 but those hours may be spread out over a 12-h hour
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window and it makes you wonder whether or not the people who may end up being in that double disadvantage feel like
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they have to work a longer day in order to make up for that presence of not being there yeah and we we know that
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that has happened it happened to a lot of us during the pandemic and you know hopefully it's eased up for a lot of us
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but that sort of sense of being on call the whole time um is you know is an unfortunate byproduct I think of kind of
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relying so heavily on technology and not being in the office with clearer um work
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hours all the time so yeah it's something to look at but it's also important for people who are working
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from home I think to recognize that managers don't see them all the time during the workday so it's kind of don't
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know that they're doing their work during all the work day so sort of trying to align their hours with the
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manager's hours in some ways is desirable and the manager should not take too much advantage of that and be
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trying to you know get people to work you know 12 15 hour days do does technology hopefully fill in maybe some
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of those gaps then in those circumstances I mean being able to have a zoom call with your co-workers or does
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it does it not do enough do you think I mean technology you know is a is a double-edged sword right it's it's great
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for a lot of these things it wouldn't be possible to be doing hybrid work if we
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didn't have the technologies that we got used to during the pandemic it would
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just not have happened in the same way certainly not as fast in terms of being able to do Zoom calls and being online
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all the time just you know and easily accessible technology has its disadvantages too right you don't get
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the the real kind of cues that you get from being with somebody face to face you don't get those side conversations
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that you have when you're in the workplace so it's too easy to think as a
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it's a perfect substitute we all know it isn't we also all know that there's too
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many Zoom meetings that's right exactly right we rely on that technology too
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much a little too much you have also done research looking at the career but the potential of the benefits or or
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impacts of going International uh of getting a job offer some other place in the world or working for your company in
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another office take us into a deeper dive on how that is impacting the dynamic of career right now yeah so um
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I'm I've done a a recent study um with uh my co-authors Matthew Bidwell who's a
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a colleague of mine here at Wharton um and Isabella Isabelle Fernandez Mato who's at London Business School and gvan
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Capone who's in the Netherlands and you know we we took this big data set of
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alums MBA alums from one of the leading European Business Schools who tend to be
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super International and we looked at their careers over time and how their International moves affect their
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compensation right which turns out you there's a lot of research on how International moves might affect your
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opportunities but actually they don't usually look at compensation and so we
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were really interested to understand um what the effects are on pay and we found some really interesting things
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which are kind of you know um there there's research that says you know the stuff is likely to be negative you move
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internationally and you you know you kind of lose opportunities you lose your local networks um it's hard to come back
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it's hard to resettle and all that stuff maybe it's bad there's other research
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that says maybe it's good right because you're gaining all these international
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skills and maybe somebody's going to pay you more for them right we didn't really
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know what we found in the study um and it's a pretty compr prehensive and kind
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of carefully done study is that when people people who have moved once or twice and this is post MBA um careers so
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they their knowledge workers they're in business careers right um if they've
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moved once or twice it's actually negatively associated with their pay in the sense of their pay doesn't grow as
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fast um as people who haven't moved internationally and we were a little surprised there's a negative effect
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right um what then we find on top of that which is kind of even maybe even more surprising is there are a set of
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people for whom these International moves are really beneficial but they people that we call Super
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globals they're people who have moved internationally many many times and our
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study it's four or more times since they're MBA and those people get a substantial pay premium so you know from
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a career point of view I think you know International moves can have positive implications in all sorts of ways from a
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pure pay point of view um first couple of moves don't seem to have you know not
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the not you're not doing them necessarily because they're going to pay you the most sure you may be doing them
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for other really good reasons right there are these people who move a ton super globals who you know are the very
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elite kind of end of the of the international employment spectrum and they're making a lot of money from it
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are those people that end up having all of those experiences and maybe they are more relied upon within the corporate
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kind of environment of a company they've seen more they've seen more components
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of the company and therefore they can bring more to the table Yeah I think that's right so I mean our sense is that
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and we did a lot of interviews trying to understand exactly who who the super globals are what they careers look like
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why they're so valuable it is the case that you know some companies really need
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people who have substantial International experience right because of the kind of work they do these folks
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have bu built a really unique set of skills and perspectives and sort of adaptability and they can COPE in many
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different environments they can cope with a lot of different unexpected events right they've often demonstrated
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that through the way they worked internationally um and then on top of that these people are rare right so
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there's not that many people you can find who are going to be able to run that you know super internationalis out
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there so once you as a as an employe you know as somebody you know to in a career
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where you've moved multiple times you not only have the set of skills but you're also really rare in the workplace
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and so you're not you know going to get employed for some job that doesn't value
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that but for the jobs that do really value that you can command a premium and that's what we see in this data and
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again it it probably falls back into that category of being the personal decision the understanding of what the
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components are of that career that really have to be thought about in order to kind of take that leap yeah that's
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right in some ways maybe that connects back to our kind of hybrid work conversation is it's just about being
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conscious of the choices that you're making right and what we do find especially for people which will be more
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people than the super globals right the people who are thinking about moving once or twice um internationally in
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their in their careers it's about being conscious of the trade-offs you're
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making right and those can be really good trade-offs or really you know valid trade-offs to make right are you moving
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because you personally value there's personal enrichment right you love spending time not just traveling but
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spending serious time in different countries right and having different experiences and having adventures and
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you really want to learn from that are you moving because there are fabulous professional opportunities for growth
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that are going to kind of expose you to you know maybe you get to run your own division or do something that you
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wouldn't have been able to do domestically and do you really want to maximize your pay and the chance that
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those things all go together in at least in the first you know move or two when you're relatively Junior in your career
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are not super likely probably going to make trade-offs again just recognize that that's the trade-off that you're
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making and it's totally valid right um but don't assume that these things are
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necessarily all going to align and and work in your favor so as you say that is does there seemingly come a point in
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that process where people kind of make that decision that okay I'm G to kind of
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be that super Global or maybe I'm not going to be and that's kind of the you
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know whether there's a moment in time where that kind of Transitions and and
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you go one way or the other yeah I think that probably is for a lot of people I mean it's somebody who's
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moved internationally I said my co-authors in the study a lot um you know I think usually at some point you
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get to a point where you've most people get to a point where they've kind of
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moved enough and kind of want to settle at least for a substantial period of time there are a small number of people
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who just love it and Thrive and do extremely well and keep having these kind of international opportunities um
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that lead them to move but it does it is interesting I think in the sense of kind
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of as you're thinking about the skills that you want to develop um and what you're trying to get out of these
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different opportunities you know once you're somewhere you kind of think is maybe the longer term place you want to
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stay you're going to be trying to develop you know really local networks and understanding and language and
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really settle right um and but if you think you're going to keep moving that
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kind of local knowledge is important it's probably going to be important for
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your longer term jobs too but you're going to need a different set of skills
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on top of that right adaptability and flexibility and kind of open-mindedness and Global mindset so you're going to
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kind of be adding a different layer because you're going to you think you're
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going to keep moving Martin great to talk to you great to talk to you too D thank you Martin hos management
00:17:05
Professor here at the won school and director of the Lauder Institute thank you for listening to the ripple effect
00:17:11
we hope you found this episode informative and engaging don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review so that
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