00:00:00
Friedman: So once we saw that there was
this huge gap that was the same
00:00:05
for men and women in terms of
their plans for whether or not
00:00:09
they were going to have children
we looked into, why is this? And
00:00:14
how is it different, if it is, for
men and women? And indeed, for
00:00:17
women the drivers had more to
do with their increased interest
00:00:26
in providing help to other
people through their careers.
00:00:31
And also in their networks of
friendships. That these were in
00:00:35
some ways playing a more
important role
00:00:39
in their identities.
00:00:42
Loney: And welcome to a
special edition of <i>The Ripple</i>
00:00:44
<i>Effect: Meet the Authors</i>. I'm
your host, Dan Loney. In each
00:00:48
episode this month, the podcast
will feature Wharton faculty
00:00:51
authors in lively, fast-moving
conversations about their latest
00:00:55
books and research. We're going
to be covering a diverse range
00:00:58
of topics, bringing you the
latest insights and knowledge
00:01:02
that you can apply to your life
and to work.
00:01:05
Well. The decision
00:01:06
to start a family has been one
that's become more challenging
00:01:09
in the last decade or so, as
younger generations are
00:01:12
considering what is best for
their lives at the moment. And
00:01:15
with the birth rate on the
decline, what are the
00:01:18
discussions going on around the
potential impacts of these
00:01:22
decisions? Pleasure to be joined
here in studio as part of our
00:01:25
summer author series by Stew
Friedman, who is Founding
00:01:28
Director of the Work/Life
Integration Project here at the
00:01:31
Wharton School. He is also
author of the book <i>Baby Bust:</i>
00:01:34
<i>New Choices for Men and Women in
Work and Family</i>. It's been too
00:01:39
long since we've had a
chance to chat.
00:01:41
Stew, great to talk
to you again.
00:01:42
Friedman: Dan, thanks so much
for having me.
00:01:43
Really appreciate being here.
00:01:44
And so this book is a 10th
anniversary edition. And so
00:01:48
let's start there, with
obviously the importance of
00:01:51
doing the first edition. But why
you think it's so important to
00:01:54
bring it back now?
00:01:56
Well, the first edition,
2012-2013, was based on the
00:02:02
findings of a study we did here
at the Wharton School, the
00:02:06
Wharton Work/Life Integration
Project, which I founded in
00:02:08
1991. One of the things we did
with that project was to start
00:02:12
to survey Wharton students and
alumni in depth as to their
00:02:18
values, beliefs, hopes, and
aspirations for their careers
00:02:22
and for the rest of their lives.
And we had the opportunity in
00:02:25
2012 to compare the responses
of people from the class of
00:02:31
1990, Gen Xers, with the
Millennials, the class of
00:02:37
2012. So we had a true
longitudinal comparison of 22-
00:02:42
year-olds, both graduating from
the same place, as opposed to a
00:02:47
lot of the other studies that
compare generations that ask
00:02:51
22-year-olds a set of questions,
and then they ask 42-year-olds
00:02:54
a set of questions, when what
you're getting there has a lot
00:02:57
to do with the difference
between being 22 and being 42.
00:03:00
Here, we had a true cross-
generational study, which was
00:03:04
unique. And what was so
startling about my initial take
00:03:10
on what we saw in our data— this
is hundreds and hundreds of
00:03:14
people from both classes, men
and women— was the response to
00:03:19
the question, do you plan to
have or adopt children? "Yes",
00:03:23
"probably", "not sure", "probably
not", and "no", were the response
00:03:26
alternatives. And in 1992, it
was 78-79% "probably" or "yes", for
00:03:32
men and women. And in 2012, it
was 42%.
00:03:39
- Significant difference.
- Well, staggering.
00:03:42
And I just thought, "No, that
can't be right." But it was. - Yeah.
00:03:46
So— so that became the central
focus of this cross-generational
00:03:50
study. Why is this? And so
that's what we were exploring in
00:03:56
the initial— the initial
monograph for the book about—
00:04:01
the different generations and
why men— and the different
00:04:04
reasons for why men and women
were less likely to plan to have
00:04:08
or adopt kids. Well, ten
years later, the Wharton Press
00:04:15
thought, "Well, let's look at
this again, because this issue
00:04:18
has just gotten bigger, right?"
With respect to how people think
00:04:23
about working the rest of their
lives, and particularly about
00:04:26
the care and— creation and care
of the next generation. So much
00:04:33
had happened in the intervening
decade, including and especially
00:04:38
the pandemic. But also huge
economic shifts, changes in
00:04:44
attitudes particularly about
religion. And so we produced
00:04:52
a new version that had an
update, that has an update, with
00:04:56
respect to how— how things have
changed, with a special focus on
00:05:01
how the the means by which work
and life fit together is now
00:05:08
radically different. Not only
because of people working from
00:05:11
home more often as a result of
the humongous jolt that the
00:05:17
pandemic brought, but also the
digital revolution and the
00:05:19
tools we have now to be able to
communicate anywhere, anytime,
00:05:22
and how that has changed how
people experience the
00:05:27
relationship between work and
family life. - Yeah, and
00:05:30
obviously, part of this also
plays into the work that you've
00:05:33
done around just thinking about
work/life balance, and how
00:05:37
people try and do this in what
has become an ever-increasing
00:05:44
level of stuff that we have in
our lives. And the challenges of
00:05:49
trying to balance that, you
know, and not fall off the
00:05:54
deep end into the deep end of
the pool here.
00:05:57
Yeah, it's really— it's really
tough now. And it's gotten
00:06:00
tougher. There are signs of hope
that I observe just thinking
00:06:05
about the last decade, but also
in the 2012-2013 version. The
00:06:11
main one being that young men
and women are more alike now
00:06:15
than they were when we started
this study 30 years ago, in
00:06:19
terms of their thinking about
what a modern working parent
00:06:25
partnership looks like. - Right.
- They're— they're more similar in
00:06:28
their attitudes. They've become
closer in how they think about
00:06:34
what they would expect of their
partners. So that's a good
00:06:41
thing. And it creates, you know,
within a family, or a parenting
00:06:47
partnership, the ground for
smarter choices, fairer choices.
00:06:53
But there's still so much— so
much that needs to be done to
00:06:56
create change. And people are
struggling for lots of different
00:07:01
reasons that have to do with
social policy, organizational
00:07:05
practice, the capacities that
individuals have to be able to
00:07:09
figure these very complex
puzzles out. And, you know, on
00:07:15
all fronts, there are things
that are happening that are
00:07:19
intended to make it easier for
people who choose to become
00:07:23
parents to— to enable them to do
that. To empower them to do
00:07:25
that. But there's also a lot of
resistance on all fronts. So
00:07:31
it's an ongoing— it's an ongoing
issue. And one that I think
00:07:36
there's just more and more
expressed pain about. And so
00:07:40
it's become more of a national
point of focus for both men and
00:07:45
women, and for grandparents too. I
am now one. That's another thing
00:07:49
that's happened since.
- Congratulations. - Thank you. Since—
00:07:52
since the first publication in
2012-2013, I've become a
00:07:56
grandparent. And so I have a new
perspective personally on what
00:08:00
these issues mean. - And
00:08:02
so part of this I guess also
is, as you said, with the
00:08:05
pandemic, obviously how people
are dealing with their work, but
00:08:09
also how work is dealing with
them, in being able to maybe work
00:08:14
with them a little bit better to
understand some of these issues
00:08:17
that people are going through,
so that they have more
00:08:19
flexibility to be able to work
from home. And that's a dynamic
00:08:23
that you go back to 1992, we
really didn't have a lot of that
00:08:27
in the mix.
00:08:28
No. But between '92 and 2012, we—
we saw some shifts, as you know,
00:08:34
particularly as the digital
revolution was— was upon us. And
00:08:39
people were figuring out how
they could work more flexibly
00:08:42
because of that. For other
reasons as well, as companies
00:08:45
were responding to an increasing
demand by men and women to have
00:08:48
more flexibility. That voice was
being expressed more. But the
00:08:51
pandemic just changed
everything. As we started living
00:08:55
Zoom life and started to
actually see on the screen, you
00:09:00
know, people and animals behind
you as you're speaking, and
00:09:05
recognizing that the boundary
between your work identity and
00:09:11
role and the other parts of your
life, particularly in your home
00:09:13
life, was something that needed
to be much more consciously
00:09:17
managed. But it also brought, as
you say, Dan, the greater
00:09:20
recognition that, "Wow, there is
this person's life, and I can see
00:09:25
it. So perhaps we as a company
ought to be taking greater
00:09:29
account for that other part of
life and to invest in employees'
00:09:34
capability and being able to
manage the different dynamics,
00:09:38
intentions and boundaries so
that they can be more fully
00:09:41
present when they are, you know,
engaged in work— in work tasks.
00:09:45
And that's— and that's been
happening. And that's a positive
00:09:47
trend.
- What has this meant
00:09:49
then from a policy perspective,
and how
00:09:52
entities beyond the corporate
boardroom are thinking about
00:09:57
these components of— of social
policy? - Well,
00:10:01
in the— in the concluding chapter
of the book, I write about the
00:10:06
changes that I'm advancing based
not only on my own views and
00:10:11
work as a policy advocate, and
as an organizational consultant
00:10:14
practitioner and as a
psychologist, and at the policy
00:10:18
level, what I was advocating for
then and continue to is greater
00:10:26
investment in childcare, and in
family leave. So those remain
00:10:32
issues that at the national
level, we are stymied. But where
00:10:37
we're seeing real innovation and
progress is at the state and
00:10:41
especially at the municipal
level throughout the country, as
00:10:45
more and more municipalities and
states are changing their
00:10:49
policies to provide greater
support for family and medical
00:10:53
leave, as well as for childcare
support of various kinds. But we
00:10:58
as a country remain woefully
behind our peers and in the
00:11:04
international economy. And that
is a source of, I think, shame,
00:11:08
really, as you think about what
what makes for good society.
00:11:14
Well, it's one that cares for
its most— its most needy, and
00:11:18
especially the next generation.
And we're just not doing that
00:11:21
nearly enough.
- So for countries
00:11:23
that are ahead of
where our curve is right now,
00:11:27
how have they been able to
advance it? And— and is it— has it
00:11:31
become— and I've wondered whether
or not this is another one of
00:11:33
those areas where there's a
component of public-private
00:11:37
partnership that may have to
come together in order to be
00:11:41
able to break down that wall
that seemingly has been there
00:11:44
for many decades.
00:11:45
Yeah. In fact, in 2000, when I
was on leave from Wharton
00:11:50
serving as Head of Leadership
Development for Ford Motor
00:11:52
Company, one of the things that
we were able to organize here at
00:11:56
Wharton was a national
conference on public-private
00:12:00
partnerships in providing for
childcare. That's almost 25
00:12:04
years ago. And we're still—
we're still not as nearly as far
00:12:10
as we need to be. But that is
surely part of the solution. And
00:12:13
as I was saying earlier, many of
the companies, the more
00:12:16
progressive companies, the ones
that are tuned into the— these—
00:12:19
these aspects of the demands of
a changing labor market,
00:12:23
they're innovating. So there's a
lot of innovation happening at
00:12:26
the— at the organizational level,
especially in the wake of the
00:12:29
pandemic, as— as, you know,
experiments were just, you know,
00:12:34
flourishing everywhere in terms
of new models for how you invest
00:12:39
in people's whole lives. But at
the national level, I don't— I
00:12:43
don't see much hope for
progress, frankly. And— and
00:12:46
we've got to look to, you know,
to smaller units at state and
00:12:50
local levels, as well as in
support of what private sector
00:12:56
companies, through tax
advantages and other
00:12:59
investments, allow them to— to
provide the kinds of support
00:13:03
that— that people need. So one of
the reasons people are less
00:13:07
likely to want to have— to plan
to have children now— and that
00:13:11
decline, by the way that we
observed in 2012, from 1992 to
00:13:14
2012, has only gotten worse. - Right.
- Since. Now, we haven't done
00:13:18
another follow up study. Maybe
2032, if I'm still around, we'll
00:13:22
do one. But— but you can look at
lots of other data to see that
00:13:28
the fertility rate in the United
States is declining still
00:13:31
further. - Right. - So, you know,
money is a big part of that,
00:13:34
economics is a big part of that.
But support for what families
00:13:39
need. And that has much to do
with childcare, education,
00:13:43
investing more in education as a
society, which is something that
00:13:46
we see in some of, you know, our
partners in other parts of the
00:13:50
world. That— that we're just not
investing enough. And so those
00:13:53
are some of the things that— that
are on the horizon, we hope.
00:13:57
And then there is obviously
00:13:59
the downstream impact
of having that
00:14:02
lower birth rate, fertility rate,
of what it's going to mean for
00:14:06
the numbers of people in the
population, of course, 20, 30
00:14:08
years down the road, and what
that economic impact—
00:14:11
- Yeah. - That is going to be
not only for our
00:14:13
economy, but for businesses
as well.
00:14:16
Well, that's why companies that
have a long-term vision are
00:14:19
concerned about this. But you
know, most of the motivation for
00:14:25
businesses is near term, how do
we attract the best and the
00:14:28
brightest? Well, we try to
have policies and practices in
00:14:31
culture, that— that truly values
the whole person. But yeah, you
00:14:36
know, economists have been
studying birth rates for a long
00:14:39
time because you need people to
replenish your economic engine.
00:14:45
And that's why it is such a such
a pressing issue as you look,
00:14:49
you know, the strategic view of
where our society is going.
00:14:53
One of the things that you
talk about in the book is the
00:14:56
reasoning behind the idea of
opting out of parenthood, and
00:15:00
the fact that in many instances,
the reasons why it may differ
00:15:04
between what men think and what
women think, right? - That's
00:15:08
right. That's right. So, once we
saw that there was this huge gap,
00:15:14
that was the same for men and
women in terms of their plans
00:15:19
for whether or not they were
going to have children. I
00:15:21
looked into why is this, and how
is it different, if it is, for men
00:15:26
and women. Indeed, for women,
the drivers had more to do with
00:15:34
their increased interest in
providing help to other people
00:15:39
through their careers, and also
in their networks of
00:15:43
friendships. That these were in
some ways playing a more
00:15:49
important role in their
identities than was becoming a
00:15:55
mother. So— so that was an
important shift. There was also
00:16:00
the reduced interest in
religion. So the people who
00:16:07
identified as atheist or
agnostic— women. This is for
00:16:12
women, not for men— the more
likely they were— they were
00:16:17
likely to, they were going to
say "No, that's not something
00:16:20
that I have to do, to become a
mother." Because they were less
00:16:22
bound by traditional
expectations for a woman's role
00:16:26
in society. For men, on the
other hand, it had more to do
00:16:30
with money. Especially if you
were a man, as a student, and
00:16:36
you have loans that you had to
pay back. Now you were less
00:16:41
likely to think about having or
planning to have children. But
00:16:47
they also anticipated greater
conflict between their work and
00:16:51
family roles than the prior
generation. Because as I said
00:16:54
earlier, they had— they were
more likely to have views of
00:16:58
family life that were
egalitarian in the sense that
00:17:01
both men and women were going to
be playing equal partner roles
00:17:06
in making both their careers and
their domestic organization
00:17:10
work. So they anticipated
greater conflict. And when I
00:17:14
started to have discussions with
students and alumni about these
00:17:19
results ten years ago, one of
the things that I heard quite a
00:17:23
bit about was young men being
afraid to become fathers,
00:17:28
because they thought that they
might fail in the role. And they
00:17:30
were concerned about that, that
that was another inhibitor that
00:17:33
we were hearing in discussions,
because of their expectation of
00:17:37
greater conflict. - Right. - At the
same time, we had people— there
00:17:42
was a student in one of my
undergraduate classes, where I
00:17:46
began the class by asking people
what their aspirations were for
00:17:50
their careers. And one of them,
as we're going around, first day
00:17:54
of class said, "Well, my— my
career aspiration is to be a
00:17:57
full-time dad." And of course, I
nearly fell off my chair when I
00:18:02
heard that. This is about ten
years ago. But you— you
00:18:05
definitely would not have heard
that in 1992. - No. - So, you know,
00:18:09
that's just a little outcropping
of how men are thinking
00:18:13
differently. They're not— you
know, their father's father, in
00:18:16
terms of they don't think of
themselves as necessarily the
00:18:19
ideal worker who is 100%
available anytime, anywhere.
00:18:23
They want to have a greater
impact in their families. But
00:18:28
because of that higher
expectation for the domestic
00:18:31
role, less of them are choosing
to invest in it. - Yeah. For
00:18:37
people that read the book, and
obviously, knowing what we know
00:18:40
now, what is it that you hope
that they take away from having
00:18:44
a chance to read <i>Baby Bust</i>?
00:18:47
Well, I think you'll get a— sort of
an interior view, how people
00:18:52
think and feel about their lives
and careers, that you don't get
00:18:56
from economic or sociological
studies. Because this is not
00:18:59
just about employment. Am I
going to work? Am I not going to
00:19:02
work? Am I going to have kids, am
I not going to have kids? This
00:19:04
is the— you know, it digs deep into
why people are thinking this
00:19:09
way. And what we can do to help
people think about and find
00:19:13
creative ways to— to live the
lives they truly want to live.
00:19:18
That's another note of
optimism that I took from this
00:19:21
study and I still am holding
on to. And that is that there's
00:19:25
greater freedom now for women
and men to choose the roles they
00:19:30
want to play in life. - Yeah. - And
so how we invest in that, so—
00:19:34
is an important part of the
back part of the book, which is
00:19:38
implications for policy. Which
we just touched on a bit. But
00:19:42
also, organizational practice.
What can you do as a manager, as
00:19:45
an executive, as a CEO, to
organize your company and to
00:19:50
promote certain values and
practices that enable people to
00:19:54
live the lives they truly want
to live? Whether that's becoming
00:19:57
parents or not. And there's also
material there on what you as
00:20:03
an individual or as a family
can do to— to become more
00:20:09
conscious of the choices that
you've got available to you and
00:20:13
how to get support for taking
those choices and making them
00:20:18
real, to craft the life that—
that you want to live. And so I
00:20:23
hope that people will take both
a better understanding of this
00:20:26
phenomenon, why it's important
for our country, for our
00:20:29
businesses, but also to get some
practical insights about what
00:20:32
they can do to try to promote
positive change at the social
00:20:36
level, at the organizational
level, and perhaps most
00:20:39
importantly, in their own lives
and families.
00:20:41
Great to see you again.
00:20:43
Thanks for coming in.
00:20:43
Well, thanks for having me, Dan.
00:20:45
Absolutely. Stew Friedman. The
book is titled <i>Baby Bust: New</i>
00:20:48
<i>Choices for Men and Women in
Work and Family</i>.
00:20:52
- Thank you for listening to
<i>The Ripple Effect</i>.
00:20:54
We hope you found this episode
00:20:55
informative and engaging. Don't
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00:20:59
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00:21:02
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