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I'm Jeff Klein executive director of the
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Wharton leadership program this is
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knowledge at Wharton I'm joined today by
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Stuart fredman author professor and an
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influential expert on leading from the
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point of view of the whole person Stu's
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new book leading the life you want
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skills for integrating work and life has
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just been released by The Harvard
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Business
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press Stu thanks so much for being here
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it's great to be here Jeff thank you for
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joining me in this conversation of
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course
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uh so let's just start I mean leading
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the life you want it builds on Decades
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of your research right both in
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leadership development as well as work
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life integration what led to this book
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for you well I published total
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leadership which is kind of the
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predecessor book in in 2008 which is the
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story of my course which I've been
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teaching here at Wharton since 2001
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since creating it when I was on leave
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from Wharton uh as head of leadership
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development for Ford Motor Company right
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and in total leadership what I've done
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is to basically tell the story of that
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course which generally takes about four
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months to go through and it's a
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stepbystep uh series of activities that
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uh I ask students and clients uh and
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readers around the world now in a in a
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moo that I teach a massive open online
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course on corera to go through each of
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these different steps in uh in a
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progression uh so it's very kind of
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systematic and you know one step Builds
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on the other um and that's that's it's
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worked really well but immensely popular
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here what was missing though from uh the
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total leadership book uh and what drove
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me to write leading the life you want
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were two things first um I'd get a lot
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of push back from people who were saying
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to me well Stu all this you know work in
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life stuff is sounds great but to be
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truly successful in the professional
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world or in the public world I mean come
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on you've got to sacrifice everything in
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your life right and what I knew from my
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own experience but also as a consultant
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as a coach as a as an educator and as a
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researcher was that that's actually not
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true even though that is the common
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wisdom and certainly I'm not saying here
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that you know you can you can have
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everything all the time and that uh uh
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you know you you can have success
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without without sacrifice without effort
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without you know discipline and
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persistence in the face of in the face
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of disappointment but what I am saying
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is that not only is it possible to
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create a greater sense of Harmony among
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the different parts of your life while
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achieving greatness it's actually
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necessary that the people who were most
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successful even by you know external
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markers of Fame and wealth uh and you
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know power uh those are the folks who
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are able to figure out in their own way
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how to bring together the different
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parts of their lives over the course of
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their lives and indeed it's their
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commitments to family to community and
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to their private selves their minds
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bodies Spirits that's what gives them
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the strength the resources uh the
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support that they need to be successful
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in the professional world so so reason
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one was to address this issue of you
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know uh you have to sacrifice everything
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not true and you're say it's it's a
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false Choice basically it's a false
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choice that it holds us back from the
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kinds of success the kinds of happiness
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that you're talking about indeed uh that
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to think in terms of you know the binary
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work life balance which is a term that I
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have been railing against for decades
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and I and I think I think we're making
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some progress there because more people
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are talking instead about work and life
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integration or Harmony uh over the
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course of life and that the balance
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concept just doesn't work because it
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forces you to think in terms of
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trade-offs uh if your mindset is what am
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I going to have work or life uh then
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you're always thinking in terms of what
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you have to give up yeah there's always
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loss always some something to lose and
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of course your employer sees that as
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well if you're working for somebody and
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say I need some more balance what she
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your boss is probably thinking is okay
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you're taking something from me and you
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know I've already gotten nothing so like
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how's this going to work where where
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does that go now so so we've really got
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to be uh focusing the conversation on
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what I refer to as four-way wins MH
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things that you can do that are within
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your
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control that enable you to create value
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in some way some demonstrably
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improved result not just at work not
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just for yourself not just for your
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community not just for your family but
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for all four and what I've discovered in
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in asking that question of students and
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clients around the world like tens of
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thousands of them now is that everybody
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can answer that question with an
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affirmative response like yeah here's
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something I could try uh and that's
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that's a that's a big part of what we're
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trying to get people to do with this
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with this model and with these examples
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so so the first reason I wrote this book
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was to show examples of wildly
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successful people who have shown that
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you can integrate the different parts of
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your life and be incredibly successful
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in fact you need to and the other was to
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really drill into the skills that they
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developed naturally uh you know in most
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cases
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unwittingly uh to to Really break down
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for the reader here are the skills that
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people use to to enact this kind of life
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to to lead the line that they want and
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to illustrate those in the cases of
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these six people that I profile and then
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in the second half of the book to curate
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The Best of You Know positive psychology
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organizational psychology the current
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research uh and and and convert it into
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exercises that people can do anyone can
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do right to uh practice these skills in
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any way they want in any order they want
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so so this is different than the total
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leadership book in the sense that you
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can just pick and choose whatever you
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want to focus on in fact it starts the
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book starts with a self assessment takes
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just a few minutes which you can also do
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for free online that shows you all right
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of these 18 skills that I've you know
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described and Illustrated which ones do
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you want to focus on right and then you
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choose which ones you want to develop by
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reading the cases about them and or just
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going right to the exercises if we can
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let's talk a little bit about the
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stories right it's an engaging set of
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stories that you offer I mean we have
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Michelle Obama Bruce Springstein gron
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Cheryl Sandberg Julie FY Tom Tierney um
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why and and how did you decide to focus
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on on these
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individuals so how did I come up with
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with these six well for years now I've
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been asking our MBA students who take my
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total leadership class to write a leader
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biography to choose somebody who they
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want to focus on who they want to just
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discover more about and to look at their
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lives and and their careers through the
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lens of the three principles of total
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leadership in what ways are these people
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being real that's the first principle
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acting with authenticity by knowing
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what's important to you your values and
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your vision being whole respecting the
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whole person knowing that there are
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these different parts of your life and
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that they do affect each other your work
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your home your community your private
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self and then to be Innovative the third
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principle constantly learning and
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experimenting with new ways of getting
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things done those are the three
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principles so go out Dear student and
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find somebody who you want to learn more
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about and write up how they've done this
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so I've read hundreds of those
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biographies which is part of what you
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know persuaded me that yeah it's it's
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out there and this is a way to approach
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you know what it means to lead the life
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you want so that was one source another
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was just people I admire um and wanted
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to learn more about myself and the other
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you know clients or people that I knew
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about and you know I was just asking
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around who do you know who do you know
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and then ultimately I wanted uh to to
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try to create a representative sample so
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there's three men and three women uh
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there's two each from the business
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sector from sports and entertainment as
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well as from the private uh sorry the
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public sector uh and so you know the
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purpose there is to illustrate that uh
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you know people leading the lives they
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want are everywhere and and you may not
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identify with Michelle Obama or Bruce
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Springsteen or Cheryl Sandberg but you
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can learn from them so it's not like you
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have to like model your life after them
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but let's look at what they've done and
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the skills that they have you know
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really mastered uh that's enabled them
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to lead the lives that they truly want
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that you can learn from and use yourself
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and I certainly appreciate um the strong
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message that comes from the selection of
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these six subjects which is you know
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leadership work life integration right
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the work and life um and community and
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self it it's a universal it's a
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universal question it's a universal
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challenge perhaps it's a universal
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opportunity um that's not just in the
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realm of business right or just in the
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realm of uh a certain kind of person and
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I I think these stories really bring
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that to life that was definitely part of
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my intention was to to demonstrate that
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these issues are not just uh in the
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business world but that really anyone
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who's got a sense of uh ambition really
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and and need to learn about you know how
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do I bring the different parts of my
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life together in a way that works
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because you know so many people that
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that I run into every single day are
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feeling the sense of being overwhelmed
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and things are out of control and and so
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uh you know this this approach is
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helpful in giving people you know a
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model for what they can do and how to do
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it to gain a greater sense of control
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and of course the great Paradox and the
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reason I chose this title ultimately is
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that uh leading the life you want
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happens when you discover what is
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uniquely you your your passions your
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your interests uh and your skills and
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converting that into value for other
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people this so that you know the idea is
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and this really only came into very very
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sharp Focus for me when I was reflecting
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on the book after it was done like what
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have I learned from this and that was
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the big Insight that leading the life
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you want happens when you take what is
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you know most core to you and make it of
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use to
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others I appreciate that
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um it reminds me that the the old saying
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I don't even know where it comes from
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but just the simple statement wherever
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you go there you are right and wherever
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we find ourselves who we are at at a
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core level at an authentic level um is
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so essential to uh to being of service
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to others and ultimately being of
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service to yourself but you have to know
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what other people around you are
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interested in right so it starts with
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understanding what matters most to you
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but then you've got to take that outside
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in view like who are the important
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people in my
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life and in my world and what do they
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really need from me and so there's you
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know some of the exercises are just
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about that issue of identifying the
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critical people uh and talking to them
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to clarify what they expect what they
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need from you when they look at you uh
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and they look up to you or you know at
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you you know what is it that they see
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and using that knowledge that comes from
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these exercises which really raise your
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awareness your consciousness of who you
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are who the people around you are what
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they need and then on the basis of that
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kind of diagnostic work to discover new
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ways of creating value for them and for
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you and that's what makes uh this about
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leadership and about sustainable change
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because it all leads to taking action
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that's going to make things better for
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you and for
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them yeah so if we can let's focus on
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some of the stories that bring the total
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leadership principles goals of be real
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be whole be Innovative to life um now
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I'm a Bruce Springsteen fan I should say
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that but and the story you tell is
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riveting it's a it's a riveting account
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of Springsteen for someone who considers
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himself a a giant fan now he makes a
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comment um within you know within this
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profile that two of the best days of his
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life were the day he picked up the
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guitar and the day that he learned how
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to put it down how does does that
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illustrate the principles that that
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we're discussing here today yeah Bruce's
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story is is really quite amazing it was
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so much fun to write um and I think What
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that particular quote represents is uh
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another really important theme of the
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book that I saw in all these different
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stories and that is this idea of
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evolution you know and conscious
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learning uh by attending on a persistent
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basis to the question of who am I what
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matters to me who matters to me and how
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can I best you know live as as they need
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me to live as as well as how I need to
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live um you know finding his voice and
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his identity uh in getting that guitar
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uh you he was very very fortunate uh you
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know to have that and you know most
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people don't have that you know moment
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of when they're 12 years old uh to
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discover oh this this is now who I am
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and this is who I was meant to be but
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you know people can discover that
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through continual
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exploration uh and then ultimately much
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later in his life as all the six people
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in this book you know demonstrate they
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changed yeah a lot from you know where
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they started uh so another one of the
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kind of myths that I'm trying to bust
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with these stories is that you're born
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with you know this capacity to be great
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not true uh you know it's it's a matter
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of yes skill there's a lot of luck but
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there's also um uh you know persistence
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discipline you know passion and courage
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to pursue that which is most important
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to you and to the people around you so
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you know much later in life uh as other
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aspects of his life became even more
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important uh like when he became a
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father he realized uh I got to make room
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for other aspects of my life now and so
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the conscious deliberate choice to
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change again uh and to rest and to make
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room for other people like the people he
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was you know creating with Patty uh you
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that that represented yet another stage
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in his development yeah I mean we aren't
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static as people and you know the guitar
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I really like the way you put it because
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the guitar is not the guitar says to him
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this is who I was meant to be but it's
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not all he was meant to be right he was
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meant to be so much more and and he
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creates that space I um yeah such a
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compelling a compelling right before bed
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story I woke up energized the next
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morning glad to hear that Jee absolutely
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yeah I mean Bruce's story is is
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especially um valuable in in teaching
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the skill of creating cultures of
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innovation which basically means he's
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somebody who is learning all the time
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and he's just pushing everybody around
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him to you know discover new capacities
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new ways of of living of expressing
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their talents and that's why he's such
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an inspirational leader of his band of
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his fan base of you know so many people
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in the world yeah so Michelle Obama our
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first lady um another really compelling
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story and somewhat controversial I'm
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sure there were people watching who
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thinking what Michelle Obama leader I
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don't get it well I was convinced I'll
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tell you that much from the read I was
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convinced now she makes did you come in
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skeptical um I came in probably not
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knowing enough right knowing that there
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was a very public role that she plays um
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but not knowing to the ex the extent to
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which she was involved in organizations
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earlier in her career and then the
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extent to which she was champion in
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causes throughout her time you know as
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as the first lady so so it was very
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instru to me um there's a quote from her
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at one point uh I think when she's a
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university administrator right it's a
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wonderful profession by the way um if
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what you're doing doesn't bring you Joy
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every single day what's the point right
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and and that's the question she's asking
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herself I think both about her
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professional career but also the ways in
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which she's engaging with her children
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and with her community which is
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incredibly strong um so what Les lessons
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does Michelle Obama what what lessons
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does she present yeah so the three
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skills that I hone in on in terms of uh
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you know analyzing her story are uh her
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capacity to align her actions with her
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values to to really do the hard work of
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figuring out all right you know what
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matters most to me what do I need to be
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doing and the quote that you chose is is
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you know is emblematic of that she's
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asking the question on a regular basis
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um and and then taking action uh the the
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second one is um man managing boundaries
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intelligently and her story about you
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know how she arrived at the White House
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and and you know how she really thought
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through and negotiated you know what it
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was going to be like for her and her
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daughters uh is is just a wonderful
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example of what's possible even under
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the most you know white- hot scrutiny of
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the entire world to figure out all right
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how am I going to bring the different
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parts of my life together in a way that
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works not just for me but for my
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children right um and and the third
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piece is well and before you you say a
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little more about about boundaries like
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how how should how should we think about
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boundaries well uh boundaries by that I
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mean you know the the spaces between the
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different parts of our lives and there's
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there's two ways to think about
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boundaries one is to create firm
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boundaries that are impenetrable that
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allow you to focus on you know one
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person or one group or one project at a
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time now I'm dad now I'm work Jeff and I
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can't do anything else and and this is
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the only thing I'm going to do right now
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I'm just going to focus just in on this
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one person or this one thing right now
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so that's that's what we mean by
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creating a you know a boundary that is
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uh firm and you know as impenetrable as
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you can make it uh but then there's
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another way of thinking about boundaries
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and that is to make them
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permeable and I don't have a strong view
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about which is better because sometimes
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you need to have those firm impermeable
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boundaries um and sometimes you need to
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make them more poorest to allow
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different parts of your life to come
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together in ways that are mutually
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enriching the key is what's working sure
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what's working for you what's working
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for the people around you so I don't
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think there's one best way uh the best
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way is the way that works for you and
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for the people that matter to you and
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that means continually checking in is
00:18:49
this working yeah and being really
00:18:51
conscious about them it's is is what
00:18:53
that skill offers exactly and then the
00:18:55
third skill of Michelle's uh Michelle
00:18:57
Obama's is um
00:18:59
to be embracing change
00:19:01
courageously this is a woman who has
00:19:03
taken some really difficult uh decisions
00:19:06
to try new things that put her in a in a
00:19:10
zone that was anything but comfortable
00:19:12
uh in pursuit of her you know core
00:19:15
values and and living them in a way that
00:19:17
she learned from her father which is
00:19:19
another thing that I tried to bring to
00:19:21
life in the story absolutely I'm going
00:19:23
to switch gears a little bit here um now
00:19:25
I I know throughout your work with total
00:19:27
leadership you've created and you've LED
00:19:30
countless peer coaching groups learning
00:19:32
communities um right now at Wharton we
00:19:35
have hundreds of MBA students who are in
00:19:37
a voluntary program that that draws upon
00:19:39
your work and and other faculty members
00:19:41
to talk about passion and purpose and
00:19:44
principles within their
00:19:46
lives you know I I look around there's
00:19:48
leanin circles there are true north
00:19:49
groups right this conversation feels
00:19:51
really relevant in today's world and so
00:19:54
given that are are these ex exercises
00:19:57
are they best experien in a group um and
00:20:00
what advice would you have for for
00:20:03
managers um for parents about you know
00:20:06
maybe how these things how the exercises
00:20:08
that you describe can best be used well
00:20:11
you'll find that um many of the
00:20:13
exercises do explicitly you know they
00:20:16
requ instruct you to work with other
00:20:19
people sure uh some of the things you
00:20:21
can do on your own uh but then many uh
00:20:24
sort of you know require you to engage
00:20:27
other people in your Lear learning and
00:20:29
Discovery and there are two main reasons
00:20:31
for that that you know peer-to-peer
00:20:33
learning uh in my view is is why it's so
00:20:37
valuable and so powerful one is that it
00:20:39
builds in
00:20:40
accountability uh you make a public
00:20:43
commitment and by that I mean to another
00:20:45
person you know outside of yourself that
00:20:47
you're going to try something uh and ask
00:20:49
them to help you to you know stay on it
00:20:53
uh and if you know if they've got a good
00:20:54
reason to do that well that's going to
00:20:56
put pressure on you which is a good good
00:20:58
thing that most people need uh
00:21:01
accountability pressure is one highly
00:21:03
valued aspect of any kind of
00:21:05
peer-to-peer learning but the other is
00:21:08
um support encouragement you know
00:21:11
reinforcement uh and and and another
00:21:14
perspective that helps you to see
00:21:17
especially when you're both doing the
00:21:19
work of exploring you know what matters
00:21:21
most who matters most what can I do to
00:21:23
change to make things better all the way
00:21:25
around if you're doing that as well as I
00:21:26
am I'm I'm learning a lot just by trying
00:21:29
to help you and listen to your you know
00:21:31
challenges and concerns in in creating
00:21:33
meaningful sustainable change so so you
00:21:36
get um accountability pressure you get
00:21:38
support and you get another perspective
00:21:40
uh that that someone else can bring to
00:21:43
you that you can't see uh and and and
00:21:46
the bonus of course when you're helping
00:21:48
other people to learn you know what it
00:21:50
means for them to lead the lives that
00:21:52
they want is that you develop new
00:21:55
insights in trying to help them which
00:21:58
Jeff is my kind of secret the reason I
00:22:01
write these books and teach these
00:22:03
courses and you know work with clients
00:22:05
uh in all kinds of different settings is
00:22:07
because uh these questions then are top
00:22:10
of mind for me all the time because I'm
00:22:12
trying to find Solutions even though
00:22:14
I've been you know at this for for
00:22:16
decades it's a it's a lifelong Quest as
00:22:19
we start to wrap up here you make the
00:22:20
argument that leading the life you want
00:22:22
is about
00:22:24
consciously compassionate action right
00:22:27
about helping others so what advice do
00:22:30
you have um for our audience for your
00:22:32
readers about how to find that kindness
00:22:35
um you know for others and especially
00:22:36
for themselves well that uh you know
00:22:39
that is again the kind of paradoxical um
00:22:42
idea behind the title that you you
00:22:45
become more free to pursue the things
00:22:48
that matter most to you when you take
00:22:50
your resources your assets your skills
00:22:53
and and try to apply them in the service
00:22:55
of other people uh and this is
00:22:57
Illustrated in virtually all six of
00:22:59
these of these stories uh and it's it's
00:23:02
such an important idea and it's been
00:23:04
around forever I mean most of the
00:23:05
world's religions uh preach this and the
00:23:09
reason that they do is because it works
00:23:12
and it's something further that most
00:23:14
people need to be reminded of because we
00:23:17
are you know ultimately we're animals as
00:23:20
well as Gods right and so we've got
00:23:22
these competing tensions um in terms of
00:23:25
our
00:23:26
motivations um but anyone uh can take
00:23:30
small actions to do what they can to
00:23:35
think about the needs of other people
00:23:36
and you know use your time and energy to
00:23:38
try to serve them even in the most uh
00:23:41
constrained and even horrific
00:23:43
circumstances this is possible in fact
00:23:45
and the gon the Eric gon story
00:23:46
illustrates this particularly well sure
00:23:49
um you it's a it's a means of
00:23:53
survival that you know the way people uh
00:23:56
get through uh really trying
00:23:59
circumstances uh like in hell week in
00:24:02
for Navy Seals training or worse in a
00:24:05
concentration camps in World War II
00:24:07
which is where Victor Frankle discovered
00:24:10
uh you know this idea that we need
00:24:13
meaning in our lives and meaning comes
00:24:15
from creating value from other people
00:24:17
for other people and you can always find
00:24:20
a way to do that St thanks so much for
00:24:23
being here with us today leading the
00:24:25
life you want skills for integrating
00:24:27
work in life just out from Harvard
00:24:29
Business Review Press thank you Jeff
00:24:35
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