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I'm Jeff Klein executive director of the Wharton leadership program this is knowledge at Wharton I'm joined today by
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Stuart fredman author professor and an influential expert on leading from the point of view of the whole person Stu's
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new book leading the life you want skills for integrating work and life has just been released by The Harvard
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Business press Stu thanks so much for being here it's great to be here Jeff thank you for
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joining me in this conversation of course uh so let's just start I mean leading
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the life you want it builds on Decades of your research right both in leadership development as well as work
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life integration what led to this book for you well I published total leadership which is kind of the
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predecessor book in in 2008 which is the story of my course which I've been teaching here at Wharton since 2001
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since creating it when I was on leave from Wharton uh as head of leadership development for Ford Motor Company right
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and in total leadership what I've done is to basically tell the story of that
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course which generally takes about four months to go through and it's a stepbystep uh series of activities that
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uh I ask students and clients uh and readers around the world now in a in a moo that I teach a massive open online
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course on corera to go through each of these different steps in uh in a progression uh so it's very kind of
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systematic and you know one step Builds on the other um and that's that's it's
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worked really well but immensely popular here what was missing though from uh the
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total leadership book uh and what drove me to write leading the life you want were two things first um I'd get a lot
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of push back from people who were saying to me well Stu all this you know work in
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life stuff is sounds great but to be truly successful in the professional world or in the public world I mean come
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on you've got to sacrifice everything in your life right and what I knew from my
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own experience but also as a consultant as a coach as a as an educator and as a researcher was that that's actually not
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true even though that is the common wisdom and certainly I'm not saying here
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that you know you can you can have everything all the time and that uh uh you know you you can have success
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without without sacrifice without effort without you know discipline and persistence in the face of in the face
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of disappointment but what I am saying is that not only is it possible to create a greater sense of Harmony among
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the different parts of your life while achieving greatness it's actually necessary that the people who were most
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successful even by you know external markers of Fame and wealth uh and you know power uh those are the folks who
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are able to figure out in their own way how to bring together the different parts of their lives over the course of
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their lives and indeed it's their commitments to family to community and to their private selves their minds
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bodies Spirits that's what gives them the strength the resources uh the support that they need to be successful
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in the professional world so so reason one was to address this issue of you know uh you have to sacrifice everything
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not true and you're say it's it's a false Choice basically it's a false
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choice that it holds us back from the kinds of success the kinds of happiness that you're talking about indeed uh that
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to think in terms of you know the binary work life balance which is a term that I
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have been railing against for decades and I and I think I think we're making
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some progress there because more people are talking instead about work and life integration or Harmony uh over the
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course of life and that the balance concept just doesn't work because it forces you to think in terms of
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trade-offs uh if your mindset is what am I going to have work or life uh then you're always thinking in terms of what
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you have to give up yeah there's always loss always some something to lose and
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of course your employer sees that as well if you're working for somebody and
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say I need some more balance what she your boss is probably thinking is okay you're taking something from me and you
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know I've already gotten nothing so like how's this going to work where where
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does that go now so so we've really got to be uh focusing the conversation on
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what I refer to as four-way wins MH things that you can do that are within your control that enable you to create value
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in some way some demonstrably improved result not just at work not just for yourself not just for your
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community not just for your family but for all four and what I've discovered in
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in asking that question of students and clients around the world like tens of thousands of them now is that everybody
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can answer that question with an affirmative response like yeah here's something I could try uh and that's
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that's a that's a big part of what we're trying to get people to do with this
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with this model and with these examples so so the first reason I wrote this book
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was to show examples of wildly successful people who have shown that you can integrate the different parts of
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your life and be incredibly successful in fact you need to and the other was to really drill into the skills that they
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developed naturally uh you know in most cases unwittingly uh to to Really break down
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for the reader here are the skills that people use to to enact this kind of life
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to to lead the line that they want and to illustrate those in the cases of these six people that I profile and then
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in the second half of the book to curate The Best of You Know positive psychology
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organizational psychology the current research uh and and and convert it into exercises that people can do anyone can
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do right to uh practice these skills in any way they want in any order they want
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so so this is different than the total leadership book in the sense that you can just pick and choose whatever you
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want to focus on in fact it starts the book starts with a self assessment takes just a few minutes which you can also do
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for free online that shows you all right of these 18 skills that I've you know
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described and Illustrated which ones do you want to focus on right and then you choose which ones you want to develop by
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reading the cases about them and or just going right to the exercises if we can let's talk a little bit about the
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stories right it's an engaging set of stories that you offer I mean we have Michelle Obama Bruce Springstein gron
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Cheryl Sandberg Julie FY Tom Tierney um why and and how did you decide to focus on on these
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individuals so how did I come up with with these six well for years now I've
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been asking our MBA students who take my total leadership class to write a leader
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biography to choose somebody who they want to focus on who they want to just discover more about and to look at their
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lives and and their careers through the lens of the three principles of total leadership in what ways are these people
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being real that's the first principle acting with authenticity by knowing what's important to you your values and
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your vision being whole respecting the whole person knowing that there are these different parts of your life and
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that they do affect each other your work your home your community your private self and then to be Innovative the third
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principle constantly learning and experimenting with new ways of getting things done those are the three
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principles so go out Dear student and find somebody who you want to learn more about and write up how they've done this
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so I've read hundreds of those biographies which is part of what you know persuaded me that yeah it's it's
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out there and this is a way to approach you know what it means to lead the life you want so that was one source another
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was just people I admire um and wanted to learn more about myself and the other you know clients or people that I knew
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about and you know I was just asking around who do you know who do you know and then ultimately I wanted uh to to
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try to create a representative sample so there's three men and three women uh
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there's two each from the business sector from sports and entertainment as well as from the private uh sorry the
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public sector uh and so you know the purpose there is to illustrate that uh you know people leading the lives they
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want are everywhere and and you may not identify with Michelle Obama or Bruce Springsteen or Cheryl Sandberg but you
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can learn from them so it's not like you have to like model your life after them
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but let's look at what they've done and the skills that they have you know
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really mastered uh that's enabled them to lead the lives that they truly want
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that you can learn from and use yourself and I certainly appreciate um the strong
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message that comes from the selection of these six subjects which is you know leadership work life integration right
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the work and life um and community and self it it's a universal it's a universal question it's a universal
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challenge perhaps it's a universal opportunity um that's not just in the
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realm of business right or just in the realm of uh a certain kind of person and I I think these stories really bring
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that to life that was definitely part of my intention was to to demonstrate that
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these issues are not just uh in the business world but that really anyone who's got a sense of uh ambition really
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and and need to learn about you know how do I bring the different parts of my life together in a way that works
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because you know so many people that that I run into every single day are feeling the sense of being overwhelmed
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and things are out of control and and so uh you know this this approach is helpful in giving people you know a
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model for what they can do and how to do it to gain a greater sense of control and of course the great Paradox and the
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reason I chose this title ultimately is that uh leading the life you want happens when you discover what is
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uniquely you your your passions your your interests uh and your skills and converting that into value for other
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people this so that you know the idea is and this really only came into very very
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sharp Focus for me when I was reflecting on the book after it was done like what
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have I learned from this and that was the big Insight that leading the life you want happens when you take what is
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you know most core to you and make it of use to others I appreciate that um it reminds me that the the old saying
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I don't even know where it comes from but just the simple statement wherever
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you go there you are right and wherever we find ourselves who we are at at a core level at an authentic level um is
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so essential to uh to being of service to others and ultimately being of service to yourself but you have to know
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what other people around you are interested in right so it starts with understanding what matters most to you
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but then you've got to take that outside in view like who are the important people in my
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life and in my world and what do they really need from me and so there's you
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know some of the exercises are just about that issue of identifying the critical people uh and talking to them
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to clarify what they expect what they need from you when they look at you uh and they look up to you or you know at
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you you know what is it that they see and using that knowledge that comes from these exercises which really raise your
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awareness your consciousness of who you are who the people around you are what they need and then on the basis of that
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kind of diagnostic work to discover new ways of creating value for them and for you and that's what makes uh this about
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leadership and about sustainable change because it all leads to taking action that's going to make things better for
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you and for them yeah so if we can let's focus on some of the stories that bring the total
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leadership principles goals of be real be whole be Innovative to life um now I'm a Bruce Springsteen fan I should say
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that but and the story you tell is riveting it's a it's a riveting account
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of Springsteen for someone who considers himself a a giant fan now he makes a comment um within you know within this
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profile that two of the best days of his life were the day he picked up the guitar and the day that he learned how
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to put it down how does does that illustrate the principles that that we're discussing here today yeah Bruce's
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story is is really quite amazing it was so much fun to write um and I think What
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that particular quote represents is uh another really important theme of the book that I saw in all these different
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stories and that is this idea of evolution you know and conscious learning uh by attending on a persistent
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basis to the question of who am I what matters to me who matters to me and how can I best you know live as as they need
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me to live as as well as how I need to live um you know finding his voice and his identity uh in getting that guitar
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uh you he was very very fortunate uh you know to have that and you know most people don't have that you know moment
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of when they're 12 years old uh to discover oh this this is now who I am and this is who I was meant to be but
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you know people can discover that through continual exploration uh and then ultimately much
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later in his life as all the six people in this book you know demonstrate they changed yeah a lot from you know where
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they started uh so another one of the kind of myths that I'm trying to bust with these stories is that you're born
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with you know this capacity to be great not true uh you know it's it's a matter
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of yes skill there's a lot of luck but there's also um uh you know persistence
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discipline you know passion and courage to pursue that which is most important to you and to the people around you so
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you know much later in life uh as other aspects of his life became even more important uh like when he became a
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father he realized uh I got to make room for other aspects of my life now and so
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the conscious deliberate choice to change again uh and to rest and to make room for other people like the people he
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was you know creating with Patty uh you that that represented yet another stage in his development yeah I mean we aren't
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static as people and you know the guitar I really like the way you put it because
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the guitar is not the guitar says to him this is who I was meant to be but it's
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not all he was meant to be right he was meant to be so much more and and he creates that space I um yeah such a
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compelling a compelling right before bed story I woke up energized the next morning glad to hear that Jee absolutely
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yeah I mean Bruce's story is is especially um valuable in in teaching the skill of creating cultures of
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innovation which basically means he's somebody who is learning all the time and he's just pushing everybody around
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him to you know discover new capacities new ways of of living of expressing their talents and that's why he's such
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an inspirational leader of his band of his fan base of you know so many people in the world yeah so Michelle Obama our
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first lady um another really compelling story and somewhat controversial I'm
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sure there were people watching who thinking what Michelle Obama leader I don't get it well I was convinced I'll
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tell you that much from the read I was convinced now she makes did you come in skeptical um I came in probably not
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knowing enough right knowing that there was a very public role that she plays um
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but not knowing to the ex the extent to which she was involved in organizations earlier in her career and then the
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extent to which she was champion in causes throughout her time you know as as the first lady so so it was very
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instru to me um there's a quote from her at one point uh I think when she's a
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university administrator right it's a wonderful profession by the way um if what you're doing doesn't bring you Joy
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every single day what's the point right and and that's the question she's asking
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herself I think both about her professional career but also the ways in which she's engaging with her children
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and with her community which is incredibly strong um so what Les lessons does Michelle Obama what what lessons
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does she present yeah so the three skills that I hone in on in terms of uh you know analyzing her story are uh her
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capacity to align her actions with her values to to really do the hard work of figuring out all right you know what
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matters most to me what do I need to be doing and the quote that you chose is is
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you know is emblematic of that she's asking the question on a regular basis um and and then taking action uh the the
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second one is um man managing boundaries intelligently and her story about you know how she arrived at the White House
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and and you know how she really thought through and negotiated you know what it was going to be like for her and her
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daughters uh is is just a wonderful example of what's possible even under the most you know white- hot scrutiny of
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the entire world to figure out all right how am I going to bring the different parts of my life together in a way that
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works not just for me but for my children right um and and the third piece is well and before you you say a
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little more about about boundaries like how how should how should we think about
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boundaries well uh boundaries by that I mean you know the the spaces between the
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different parts of our lives and there's there's two ways to think about
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boundaries one is to create firm boundaries that are impenetrable that allow you to focus on you know one
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person or one group or one project at a time now I'm dad now I'm work Jeff and I
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can't do anything else and and this is the only thing I'm going to do right now
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I'm just going to focus just in on this one person or this one thing right now
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so that's that's what we mean by creating a you know a boundary that is uh firm and you know as impenetrable as
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you can make it uh but then there's another way of thinking about boundaries
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and that is to make them permeable and I don't have a strong view about which is better because sometimes
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you need to have those firm impermeable boundaries um and sometimes you need to make them more poorest to allow
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different parts of your life to come together in ways that are mutually enriching the key is what's working sure
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what's working for you what's working for the people around you so I don't
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think there's one best way uh the best way is the way that works for you and
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for the people that matter to you and that means continually checking in is this working yeah and being really
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conscious about them it's is is what that skill offers exactly and then the third skill of Michelle's uh Michelle
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Obama's is um to be embracing change courageously this is a woman who has taken some really difficult uh decisions
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to try new things that put her in a in a zone that was anything but comfortable uh in pursuit of her you know core
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values and and living them in a way that she learned from her father which is another thing that I tried to bring to
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life in the story absolutely I'm going to switch gears a little bit here um now
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I I know throughout your work with total leadership you've created and you've LED
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countless peer coaching groups learning communities um right now at Wharton we have hundreds of MBA students who are in
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a voluntary program that that draws upon your work and and other faculty members
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to talk about passion and purpose and principles within their lives you know I I look around there's
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leanin circles there are true north groups right this conversation feels really relevant in today's world and so
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given that are are these ex exercises are they best experien in a group um and what advice would you have for for
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managers um for parents about you know maybe how these things how the exercises that you describe can best be used well
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you'll find that um many of the exercises do explicitly you know they requ instruct you to work with other
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people sure uh some of the things you can do on your own uh but then many uh sort of you know require you to engage
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other people in your Lear learning and Discovery and there are two main reasons for that that you know peer-to-peer
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learning uh in my view is is why it's so valuable and so powerful one is that it
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builds in accountability uh you make a public commitment and by that I mean to another
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person you know outside of yourself that you're going to try something uh and ask
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them to help you to you know stay on it uh and if you know if they've got a good
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reason to do that well that's going to put pressure on you which is a good good
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thing that most people need uh accountability pressure is one highly valued aspect of any kind of
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peer-to-peer learning but the other is um support encouragement you know reinforcement uh and and and another
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perspective that helps you to see especially when you're both doing the work of exploring you know what matters
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most who matters most what can I do to change to make things better all the way around if you're doing that as well as I
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am I'm I'm learning a lot just by trying to help you and listen to your you know
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challenges and concerns in in creating meaningful sustainable change so so you get um accountability pressure you get
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support and you get another perspective uh that that someone else can bring to you that you can't see uh and and and
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the bonus of course when you're helping other people to learn you know what it
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means for them to lead the lives that they want is that you develop new insights in trying to help them which
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Jeff is my kind of secret the reason I write these books and teach these courses and you know work with clients
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uh in all kinds of different settings is because uh these questions then are top
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of mind for me all the time because I'm trying to find Solutions even though
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I've been you know at this for for decades it's a it's a lifelong Quest as
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we start to wrap up here you make the argument that leading the life you want is about
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consciously compassionate action right about helping others so what advice do you have um for our audience for your
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readers about how to find that kindness um you know for others and especially for themselves well that uh you know
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that is again the kind of paradoxical um idea behind the title that you you become more free to pursue the things
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that matter most to you when you take your resources your assets your skills and and try to apply them in the service
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of other people uh and this is Illustrated in virtually all six of these of these stories uh and it's it's
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such an important idea and it's been around forever I mean most of the world's religions uh preach this and the
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reason that they do is because it works and it's something further that most
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people need to be reminded of because we are you know ultimately we're animals as
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well as Gods right and so we've got these competing tensions um in terms of our
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motivations um but anyone uh can take small actions to do what they can to think about the needs of other people
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and you know use your time and energy to try to serve them even in the most uh constrained and even horrific
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circumstances this is possible in fact and the gon the Eric gon story illustrates this particularly well sure
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um you it's a it's a means of survival that you know the way people uh get through uh really trying
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circumstances uh like in hell week in for Navy Seals training or worse in a concentration camps in World War II
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which is where Victor Frankle discovered uh you know this idea that we need meaning in our lives and meaning comes
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from creating value from other people for other people and you can always find a way to do that St thanks so much for
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being here with us today leading the life you want skills for integrating work in life just out from Harvard
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Business Review Press thank you Jeff [Music]