00:00:00
Corinne Low: So women like me who were
primary breadwinners did not
00:00:03
have the same support at home as
my male colleagues who were the
00:00:06
breadwinner. And in the data,
you actually see that women who
00:00:10
are the primary breadwinner
still do twice as much cooking
00:00:14
and cleaning as their lower
earning male partners, and that
00:00:17
just doesn't add up. And then
when you add to that the fact,
00:00:20
again, I didn't know until
you looked at the data, that
00:00:24
moms spend twice as much time
with their kids as moms a
00:00:27
generation ago because of our
greater understanding of child
00:00:31
development, because we
understand that holding our
00:00:34
babies and breastfeeding and
baby wearing and talking to our
00:00:37
toddlers and doing homework with
our grade schoolers, that these
00:00:40
things are crucial, we put -- and
they require our time.
00:00:44
Dan Loney: Welcome to the Ripple Effect,
the podcast that takes you on a
00:00:48
journey through the minds of
Wharton faculty. I'm your host,
00:00:51
Dan Loney. And in each episode
we'll be diving deep into the
00:00:54
inspiration behind the
groundbreaking research that
00:00:57
Wharton professors have
conducted and exploring how
00:01:00
their findings resonate with the
world today. Loney: The old line, having
00:01:05
it all, is one that tends to be
associated with women and their
00:01:09
careers, and what they look to
try and find in those careers.
00:01:13
Like, can they bring children in
the world while still advancing
00:01:15
a professional life? Corinne Low is
an Associate Professor of
00:01:18
Business, Economics, and Public
Policy here at the Wharton
00:01:21
School. She has authored a new
book about the topic titled
00:01:24
<i>Having It All: What Data Tells Us
About Women's Lives and Getting</i>
00:01:29
<i>the Most Out Of Yours.</i> And she
joins us here in studio. Hi,
00:01:32
Corinne. How are you? - Hi, Dan.
It's great to be back. - I guess
00:01:35
let's start with the title
itself, because that's always
00:01:38
the big question is, where we
are now. Can women have it all?
00:01:42
- Well, what I document in the
book is that actually having it
00:01:46
all, quote unquote, has become
harder than ever, because
00:01:50
women's time, and especially the
time of working moms, is being
00:01:53
uniquely squeezed in this
moment. Our careers are more
00:01:55
demanding than ever. Men have
not stepped up to perform
00:02:00
household duties at home. We'll
get into that data more. And we
00:02:04
do twice as much childcare. We
spend twice as much time with
00:02:08
our kids as parents a generation
ago. And so all of those things
00:02:12
kind of don't add up to 24 hours
in the day. And so I think if we
00:02:16
try to have it all according to
these old models, these old
00:02:20
beliefs, without recognizing the
way that these structural forces
00:02:23
have changed, then we're setting
ourselves up for unhappiness.
00:02:26
- So is having it all a reasonable
expectation? - I think what I say
00:02:31
in the book is that it is
possible for women to have what
00:02:35
they need to have a happy and
fulfilled life, but they're
00:02:38
going to have to choose what
their all is. And absolutely, if
00:02:42
you want to have that career
where you're going to be the
00:02:44
equal to a man and equal to your
male colleagues, and it's going
00:02:47
to move at the same pace,
absolutely, you can have that.
00:02:50
And absolutely, if you want to
be the mom who never misses a
00:02:52
soccer game and makes the
homemade baby food and the hand
00:02:55
decorated birthday cupcakes,
absolutely, you can be that. But
00:02:59
those might be two separate full
time jobs. And so if you try to
00:03:03
do both of those things, you
know, to a level of excellence,
00:03:06
where there's never going to be
a dropped ball, there's never
00:03:09
going to be a tough day, you
will end up feeling the way I
00:03:15
was feeling at the beginning of
the book, which is exhausted,
00:03:18
depleted, and wondering, like, is
this it?
00:03:21
- So what does the data tell
us about the path of trying to
00:03:25
have it all right now?
00:03:27
- So as I said, there's two big
forces that, when I looked at the
00:03:30
data, it kind of was an aha
moment for me. Because I was
00:03:33
wondering, you know, when I was
at Wharton early in my career,
00:03:37
and I was commuting from New
York City, and I had just had a
00:03:40
baby, and as I say in the book,
I say in 2017, I gave birth to my
00:03:43
son, and also a midlife crisis.
Because I was commuting two and
00:03:47
a half hours, I was the primary
breadwinner, became the sole
00:03:50
breadwinner, and I just felt
like it was so hard every single
00:03:54
day for me to show up the way I
wanted to show up, both at work
00:03:58
and at home. And I felt like my
male colleagues seemed to be
00:04:00
publishing papers faster than
me, and my female friends seemed
00:04:04
to be doing a better job, you
know, with their kids or, you
00:04:06
know, be able to do more. And
then I started looking at the
00:04:10
data, and I found that it was
not just me at all, that we were
00:04:15
being set up to fail. Because as
women had been able to take on
00:04:20
the same roles as men in the
workplace, as gender roles had
00:04:23
converged at work, they hadn't
converged at home. So women like
00:04:26
me who were primary breadwinners
did not have the same support at
00:04:30
home as my male colleagues who
were the breadwinner. And in the
00:04:33
data, you actually see that
women who are the primary
00:04:36
breadwinner still do twice as
much cooking and cleaning as
00:04:40
their lower earning male
partners, and that just doesn't
00:04:44
add up. And then when you add to
that, the fact, again, I
00:04:47
didn't know until you get the
data, that moms spend twice as
00:04:51
much time with their kids as
moms a generation ago because of
00:04:56
our greater understanding of
child development. Because we
00:04:58
understand that holding our
babies and breastfeeding and
00:05:01
baby wearing and talking to our
toddlers and doing homework with
00:05:04
our grade schoolers, that these
things are crucial. We put -- and
00:05:09
they require our time.
00:05:10
- Yeah, so, as you kind of laid
out a moment ago, then the
00:05:14
relationship also between
husband and wife, partner and
00:05:19
partner, to have a great working
relationship so that the mom,
00:05:27
the wife, can have it all
becomes that much more
00:05:29
important. Everybody doing their
share so that everybody can be
00:05:34
successful along the way.
00:05:35
- I mean, I think that's
absolutely it. When I look in
00:05:38
the data, I see that when a man
has a high paying career, it
00:05:43
almost becomes like a joint
project of the household, right?
00:05:46
It's something that the whole
household is organized to kind
00:05:48
of support, because that is the
income that then is, you know,
00:05:51
supporting the lifestyle for
that household. And I don't see
00:05:54
that reciprocity with women's
careers, that when she has a
00:05:56
really high paying job, and even
much higher paying than his job,
00:06:00
I don't see his time in the
household change to actually
00:06:04
support her. - Why do you think
that is? - I do think that gender
00:06:07
roles have something to do with
it, and I think that's one of
00:06:09
the big things that we have to
tackle to start making some
00:06:12
change, is that I think it's
hard to see -- you know, men have
00:06:17
kind of been trained to say,
"Okay, your ambition, your
00:06:19
career, that's what matters." And
it's hard to let go of that
00:06:23
ideal and to say, "Oh, maybe the
way that I can really be a great
00:06:28
provider and a great supporter
is by leaning into my wife's
00:06:32
career and making sure that, you
know, she's able to get the work
00:06:35
hours that she needs."
And so like in the data, I see
00:06:38
some couples where the wife is
earning four times as much, and
00:06:43
she still gets fewer hours to
work than he does. So he's
00:06:46
earning a quarter of the amount,
and he gets more hours to work
00:06:49
and is doing much less of, you
know, the home duties.
00:06:52
- What has the corporate world
done then? I mean, they have
00:06:57
made some changes in terms of
the availability of time off
00:07:02
when you have a child. But it
still feels like, obviously,
00:07:05
from a lot of people's
perspectives, that there is
00:07:07
still a ways to go. That, from
the business perspective, they
00:07:11
can do more to open the door for
women, to make sure that they
00:07:15
can try to have it all.
00:07:17
- Well, I think not only can they
do more, but I think the firms
00:07:20
that manage to figure this out
are going to have a major
00:07:23
competitive advantage, because
that's talent that you're
00:07:26
retaining, and talent is ideas,
it's innovation, and it's what's
00:07:30
going to actually, you know,
push you ahead of your
00:07:33
competitors in this race that
we're all in, right? So I think
00:07:36
that firms must figure this out,
and I don't think it's as hard
00:07:40
as they think, because another
thing that's true is, when I look
00:07:43
at the data, this period in life
where our time is most
00:07:48
constrained, actually call it
the squeeze, it's temporary.
00:07:52
It's the time when our kids are
young and we're making career
00:07:54
investments, but because those
investments haven't paid off
00:07:57
yet, we can't throw money at the
problem. And that period comes
00:08:02
and it goes. And if firms can
figure out how to retain women
00:08:05
through that period, then all
the investments they made in
00:08:08
recruiting and acquiring and
training that talent, they're
00:08:10
going to get to hold on to
through a very long, productive
00:08:13
life of this worker, right? So
what do firms need to do? And I
00:08:18
think here I'd like to do some
myth busting, because a lot of
00:08:21
firms are talking about, right
now, that they want return to
00:08:24
office, and that they think
that's better for productivity,
00:08:27
and I think they're worried.
They're saying, "Well, we can't
00:08:29
give women the flexibility in
the work from home that they
00:08:31
want." But that's not actually
what the research shows that
00:08:34
women want. So in research that
has offered women different
00:08:38
types of roles, either the
standard kind of nine to five, 40
00:08:41
hours a week, or work from home,
flexible hours, they find that
00:08:45
women are willing to give up
very little pay for those
00:08:48
flexible or work from home
options. But instead, if they
00:08:51
offer women a schedule where the
employer sets it. It's called
00:08:55
employer discretion. So you know,
this time you're working, you
00:08:57
know, six to noon, but tomorrow
you have to be here until nine p.m.,
00:09:00
they're willing to give up
almost 40 percent of their pay to avoid
00:09:04
that schedule. What this tells
me is that women don't want
00:09:07
flexibility. They want
boundaries. And I think
00:09:10
it's actually possible for firms
to offer them. So yes, you can
00:09:13
get everybody back into the
office if you're able to say,
00:09:15
"Hey, let's use this remote
technology that we really
00:09:18
perfected during the pandemic to
say in person work ends at five p.m.
00:09:22
Go home, pick up your kids from
daycare, have dinner as a
00:09:26
family, and then after bedtime,
that's when we're going to have
00:09:28
our next call. That's when we're
going to log back on, right?"
00:09:31
Recognize what women are telling
you about what hours are the
00:09:34
most costly, and figure out a
way to put those boundaries in
00:09:37
place.
00:09:37
- Well, and partly, I guess, that's made
easier to be able to do that
00:09:41
because of the technology that
we all have at our fingertips. I
00:09:45
mean, none of us go too far from
our smartphones to begin with.
00:09:48
So we're constantly in this kind
of connection phase. And that's
00:09:50
another kind of component of
work in general, about how
00:09:53
people talk about, you know, we
don't get as much break in
00:09:56
general.
00:09:57
- Yes, exactly. And so rather than
saying -- firms are saying, "Hey,
00:10:00
it's costly for us to have
everybody working from home all
00:10:03
the time. We need some of that
in person interaction." Great,
00:10:05
get it done between nine to
five, and I promise you, you are
00:10:08
going to retain not just more
female employees, but more
00:10:11
employees in general. Because
that old trope of the employee
00:10:15
that you built the system for,
that's a man with a stay at home
00:10:18
wife, that's fewer and fewer of
your employees in general. So
00:10:21
it's not just female employees
who are responsible for care
00:10:24
work and who have kids that they
need to pick up from
00:10:26
daycare. - You have spent some
time in the book talking about
00:10:30
the decision making process that
women go through in terms of
00:10:33
making these calls on a variety
of different areas so that they
00:10:38
can have the best of all worlds
here, and the challenges that
00:10:41
that really, in many cases, get
put forward.
00:10:44
- Yeah, absolutely. And so I
encourage people to think about
00:10:47
their happiness like an
economist. And so, you know,
00:10:50
economists think about
individuals as maximizing their
00:10:53
utility function. What's your
utility function? Well, it's not
00:10:57
quite happiness, because it's
this deeper meaning,
00:11:00
contentment, joy and fulfillment
over a lifetime, versus kind of
00:11:03
momentary happiness. And when
you use that as your north star,
00:11:08
that's going to enable you to
respond to these impossible time
00:11:11
constraints by radically
prioritizing what actually
00:11:15
contributes to your happiness,
the thing that actually gives
00:11:18
you a marginal benefit for that
marginal time you're putting in,
00:11:21
versus the things that we're
doing from guilt, obligation, a
00:11:24
sense that somebody on social
media or my friend is doing it,
00:11:28
right? And we're going to figure
out that if we want to be able
00:11:33
to have the careers that we want
to have, and if we want to be
00:11:36
able to be the parents that we
want to be, that's enough. We
00:11:40
have to say no to everything
else, and we've got to declutter
00:11:43
our time.
00:11:44
- So that brings me into something
else you talk about, and you
00:11:47
talk about ROI in the scope
of this process. We talk about
00:11:51
return on investment so much in
the business landscape, it feels
00:11:56
like we don't talk about it
enough of looking at all that
00:11:59
kind of is impacted in our
personal lives, and are we truly
00:12:03
getting the best ROI in our
personal side as well as our
00:12:06
professional?
00:12:06
- Absolutely. Just one example
that I think, you know, some
00:12:09
people, women especially, don't
think about enough, is when we
00:12:12
go through this guilt of like,
"Oh, should I outsource this?
00:12:15
Really, I should be able to do
it myself." I want us to reframe
00:12:18
that decision to say not
outsourcing a task is choosing
00:12:21
to hire yourself to do it. Are
you going to get a higher return
00:12:25
on your time from doing this
household task in house versus
00:12:28
the other uses of your time? And
that might be investing in your
00:12:31
career, or it also might just be
refilling your cup, replenishing,
00:12:34
sleeping, which we also need to
be productive, right? And I
00:12:38
think with male coded tasks, we
don't struggle with that same
00:12:41
guilt weight and trade off. We
say like, "Hey, of course, you
00:12:44
know, the plumber can fix this
problem, or the roofer, or the
00:12:47
car repairman can fix this
problem faster than he can do
00:12:50
it." And we recognize that kind
of a man's time is valuable
00:12:53
because it can be spent in the
workforce. But with female coded
00:12:56
tasks, we almost go in with the
assumption that she should be
00:12:58
able to juggle both, and that's
unfair, it's not the reality,
00:13:04
and it's inefficient.
00:13:06
- Should companies -- companies,
obviously, are bringing forward
00:13:10
a little bit more to the table
in a lot of these areas. Can
00:13:15
there be, or should there be a
middle ground where both the
00:13:19
employee and the employer can
kind of meet in that, where the
00:13:22
employee is getting the benefit,
but also the employer is getting
00:13:25
the benefit, and both sides feel
like it is a great relationship,
00:13:30
it just works for both sides?
00:13:32
- I absolutely think the win-win
solution is there because, as I
00:13:35
said, women are bringing their
innovation to the table, they
00:13:38
bring their talent to the table.
And you can, if you figure out
00:13:41
how to do this as a firm, retain
a woman for, you know, the 25
00:13:45
years after her kids are in full
time school, where you don't
00:13:48
know where she's going to be
able to go to in the company.
00:13:51
And so I think firms make a
grave mistake by losing talent
00:13:55
during this temporary period,
during this squeeze, that they
00:13:58
could hold on to. And again, I
think it's a little cheaper than
00:14:01
they think to hold on to it if
we are evidence driven.
00:14:04
- How much has the pandemic kind
of changed a lot of these
00:14:07
dynamics? I say that because it
seemed like before the pandemic,
00:14:10
from the financial perspective,
the amount that women were
00:14:15
getting for certain jobs was
improving. It certainly was not
00:14:17
on par with where men were. But
it seemed like it was improving
00:14:21
a little bit. And it felt like
the pandemic knocked that back a
00:14:24
few steps as well. - Well, I
00:14:25
think the pandemic put a lot of
childcare burden on women, and
00:14:28
women were the ones who were the
shock absorber for that, by and
00:14:32
large. And the thing that is
interesting is that was true
00:14:34
whether they were the
breadwinner or not. It wasn't
00:14:36
based on their earning power.
They were more likely to kind of
00:14:39
take that on. But I think if you
zoom out a little bit, actually,
00:14:42
the gender wage gap has been
plateauing since around the
00:14:45
1990s, and that's around the same
time that we saw this explosion
00:14:48
in child care time. And so I
actually think if we zoom
00:14:53
out, you know, it goes up and
down, it gets better or worse,
00:14:56
we have some deeper structural
issues that we need to work on,
00:14:59
where we absolutely need more
support for everybody, both moms
00:15:04
and dads being parents. We need
to recognize the fact that this
00:15:09
has changed, that the inputs
that we put into raising
00:15:12
children is different. You know,
every parent who's listening can
00:15:16
probably recognize the elaborate
bedtime routine and waiting for
00:15:20
your kid to go to bed and
processing the day's highs and
00:15:22
lows. I grew up in the 1980s. My
bedtime routine was, go to bed, okay?
00:15:26
And when you think about that,
you actually recognize how much
00:15:30
time use has changed, that the
way we parent today is
00:15:32
completely different. And
knowing that data, it's
00:15:36
empowering. It's empowering for
workers and it's empowering for
00:15:38
firms to think about, well now,
how do we make that work?
00:15:41
- A five minute go to bed process
compared to what could be 45
00:15:44
minutes to an hour at this
point. - Exactly. - Then is the expectation,
00:15:51
then -- and you talked about men
helping out this process as
00:15:54
well. What do men need to do to
help this process move forward
00:16:00
for women?
00:16:00
- Yeah, I'm going to write another
book, and I'm going to call it
00:16:02
<i>Lean In For Men</i>,
because I think we focus so much
00:16:05
on what women need to do to be
competitive in the workplace,
00:16:07
and we haven't focused on how
men need to evolve. And I think
00:16:10
the missing part of the gender
revolution is, as I said, we've
00:16:14
seen that convergence in roles
at work. Women can take on the
00:16:17
same roles. They can be as
productive as men at work. We
00:16:19
haven't seen that convergence at
home. Men's time doing housework
00:16:23
hasn't changed since 1975. It's
entirely constant. And so for
00:16:27
men to be competitive as part of
this changing world, in a broader
00:16:31
sense, not just on the labor
market, but for them to be good
00:16:34
partners, for them to get
married, for them to stay
00:16:36
married, I think men need to be
bringing more to the table than
00:16:39
a paycheck.
00:16:40
- What do you hope then that
people will take from reading
00:16:43
your book?
00:16:45
- I hope that women will feel seen
and validated. One of the things
00:16:48
I say is, "It's not in your head,
it's in the data." And so I hope
00:16:51
that they will see that they are
not failing, they are facing a
00:16:55
kind of impossible set of
circumstances. And then I hope
00:16:58
that will give them permission
to navigate it however brings
00:17:02
them the most happiness and
fulfillment, and to find what
00:17:05
they need and pursue that.
Pursue their optimal, their
00:17:09
utility function, not what
success is that somebody else
00:17:13
has defined for you. And I call
that having it almost.
00:17:16
- Corinne, great to see you again.
Thanks very much for your time.
00:17:19
- Thanks so much, Dan. - Thank you.
Corinne Low. The book is titled
00:17:21
<i>Having It All: What Data Tells Us
About Women's Lives and Getting</i>
00:17:26
<i>the Most Out Of Yours.</i> Corinne
is an Associate Professor of
00:17:29
Business, Economics, and Public
Policy here at the Wharton
00:17:32
School. - Thank you for listening
to the Ripple Effect. We hope
00:17:36
you found this episode
informative and engaging. Don't
00:17:38
forget to subscribe and leave us
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00:17:42
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