00:00:01
this podcast is brought to you by knowah
00:00:04
[Music]
00:00:10
warten welcome to knowledge at warten
00:00:12
I'm Angie bessan with me today is Dr
00:00:14
Stuart fredman he's the author of baby
00:00:17
bust new choices for men and women in
00:00:20
work and family it's a really
00:00:22
interesting look at how our competitive
00:00:25
demanding work culture in the United
00:00:27
States is leading more and more young
00:00:28
people to question whether they want to
00:00:30
become parents or even have
00:00:32
families Dr fredman is an organizational
00:00:35
psychologist he joined the Wharton staff
00:00:37
in
00:00:38
1984 and in early 1990s set up two of
00:00:40
the seminal programs here at the
00:00:42
university the Wharton leadership
00:00:43
program and the Wharton work life
00:00:45
integration project he has uh been a
00:00:49
sought-after expert in the topic of work
00:00:51
life balance and he's won numerous
00:00:52
awards for his teaching Excellence now
00:00:55
he is an Emeritus practice professor of
00:00:57
management Stu thanks for joining me so
00:01:00
great to be here Angie thanks for having
00:01:01
me thank you well we have something to
00:01:03
celebrate today because it's is the 10th
00:01:05
anniversary of baby bus so it's been
00:01:07
reissued to marthy occasion
00:01:09
congratulations that's an achievement
00:01:11
thank you I'm very glad to have this new
00:01:14
addition and grateful to the Wharton
00:01:16
press for uh for doing it absolutely
00:01:20
well this book is based on your research
00:01:23
using Wharton graduates as your as your
00:01:26
subject matter you talked to the class
00:01:28
of 1992 and then 20 years later the
00:01:31
class of 2012 you surveyed them about
00:01:33
their perceptions and their attitudes
00:01:34
about work and family give us a bit of
00:01:36
an overview and really what inspired you
00:01:39
to write this
00:01:41
book well uh you know back in the 80s I
00:01:45
was doing research and practice uh
00:01:49
working with organizations on leadership
00:01:51
development talent management for uh for
00:01:56
how companies prepared and selected
00:01:59
their senior
00:02:00
Executives um that was my dissertation
00:02:03
at the University of Michigan that's
00:02:04
what I've been working on and it was all
00:02:07
going quite swimmingly when uh few years
00:02:11
into that in the late 80s I became a
00:02:14
father for the first time and that sort
00:02:17
of changed things for me and I realized
00:02:19
at that moment of meeting my son for the
00:02:23
first time that uh that I had a new
00:02:27
question to pursue and that was how am I
00:02:30
going to contribute to making the world
00:02:32
one in which he's going to flourish so I
00:02:35
brought that question to everyone
00:02:38
including my students in the Wharton
00:02:39
School uh in the MBA program and asked
00:02:43
what are you as future Business Leaders
00:02:45
going to do about uh cultivating not
00:02:48
just the next generation of talent in
00:02:51
your companies but the Next Generation
00:02:54
full stop and that uh that conversation
00:02:58
led me to to become a lot more active in
00:03:02
doing research starting to develop
00:03:04
teaching models and uh sharing knowledge
00:03:08
about how people integrate the different
00:03:10
parts of their lives for Mutual gain it
00:03:13
led to this the start of the work life
00:03:15
integration project which did uh
00:03:18
research in the field finding people who
00:03:21
were good at this uh and identifying
00:03:24
what it was about what they did that
00:03:27
helped them to find Harmony among the
00:03:31
different parts of their lives as
00:03:33
parents and in other aspects of their
00:03:35
lives we also did large scale survey
00:03:38
research uh starting in
00:03:40
1992 uh which was uh the basis the
00:03:43
original basis for the uh the baby bus
00:03:45
study so uh we started tracking
00:03:49
different classes of of Wharton students
00:03:51
and as the project grew and aged and as
00:03:55
I aged uh we we decided 20 years after
00:03:59
the initial
00:04:00
study uh the first in a series of
00:04:02
studies we decided to go back to the
00:04:06
class of 1992 and ask them a series of
00:04:08
questions about their lives their
00:04:11
careers their hopes their dreams their
00:04:13
passions their
00:04:15
interests um their political views lots
00:04:18
and lots of questions about who they are
00:04:20
as people but we also surveyed the class
00:04:22
of 2012 which enabled us to do a
00:04:25
cross-generational study 20 years apart
00:04:29
so we compared the class of 1992 when
00:04:32
they graduated and the class of 2012
00:04:36
when they graduated so we had a true uh
00:04:40
you know cross-generational
00:04:42
comparison that's the study that uh baby
00:04:45
bust is about and now 10 years after
00:04:48
that study uh I've had a chance to to
00:04:52
provide some new commentary on what we
00:04:55
observed then in 2012 or 2013 was
00:04:59
actually when the uh um the study was
00:05:01
published and and now 10 years later the
00:05:04
the main finding the thing that really
00:05:07
struck me when I looked at the data uh
00:05:10
comparing the class of 1992 to the class
00:05:12
of 2012 was what men and women were
00:05:16
saying about their interests in planning
00:05:20
uh to have or adopt
00:05:22
children in
00:05:24
1992 uh about 78 79% of men and women
00:05:29
said that they plan to have or adopt
00:05:32
children so the the response scale was
00:05:34
uh yes probably not sure probably not
00:05:38
and no so 78 79% men and women said uh
00:05:43
yes or probably in 1992 in 2012 that
00:05:47
number dropped to 42
00:05:49
43% that's really dramatic I was it was
00:05:53
crazy I thought no that can't be that's
00:05:55
just too too huge a drop uh but it was
00:05:58
true so that became kind of the focal
00:06:01
point for looking at what had changed
00:06:04
when we when we studied the Gen xers
00:06:06
compared uh to the uh compared to the
00:06:10
Millennials um and so in in the book
00:06:13
what what I do is to
00:06:15
describe what
00:06:18
changed uh and why uh and and how the
00:06:21
story is a little bit different for men
00:06:23
and women as to why fewer young people
00:06:25
were planning to have or adopt children
00:06:28
let's talk a little bit about that um
00:06:30
first of all I do want to show the book
00:06:31
here it is this is the newest edition
00:06:32
with the orange cover um the the there
00:06:36
is a striking number of differences in
00:06:38
the attitudes and the perceptions
00:06:40
between the Gen xers and the Millennials
00:06:43
um some things were similar as you put
00:06:44
in the book there's good news and
00:06:45
there's bad news can you highlight some
00:06:47
of those differences that you found for
00:06:50
us well people are less likely to want
00:06:54
to have children now I thought uh and
00:06:56
and in indeed the original response to
00:06:58
the to the
00:06:59
book uh was oh that's just Wharton
00:07:02
students we can't really generalize well
00:07:04
it turns out that these are trends that
00:07:07
are both National and Global uh I I
00:07:10
became much more knowledgeable about
00:07:12
Trends in birth rates because I had to
00:07:15
to try to learn something about uh what
00:07:18
it was we were observing among
00:07:20
students uh and and now alumni turns out
00:07:24
um these are not isolated findings among
00:07:27
you know these Elite Business School
00:07:29
students these are uh broader findings
00:07:32
and uh there are a number of reasons
00:07:35
that explain why men and women uh
00:07:37
shifted in their in their interests
00:07:40
their willingness to want to have uh
00:07:43
kids of of their own uh it's not that
00:07:46
they think any less about the importance
00:07:48
of long-term relationships or even
00:07:50
becoming a parent it's still an
00:07:52
important part of life it's just that
00:07:53
many many fewer of them are planning to
00:07:55
actually do it uh for for men it had to
00:08:00
do in part with
00:08:03
um having a different attitude about
00:08:05
what a modern father is a a different
00:08:08
father than the one that they had in
00:08:10
terms of their role in the family
00:08:12
wanting to be more involved more
00:08:15
active um and also wanting to be able to
00:08:20
uh to uh to fund their family's needs
00:08:24
and their concerns about that so we
00:08:25
found that people uh young men who were
00:08:29
caring uh a high level of student debt
00:08:31
for example they were less likely to
00:08:33
want to have kids because they were
00:08:34
afraid that they couldn't provide the
00:08:37
support uh they also anticipated greater
00:08:41
conflict uh in their uh relationships
00:08:45
because uh of their um expected amount
00:08:49
of Engagement in the role of Father uh
00:08:53
and how that was going to conflict with
00:08:56
their um being you know uh
00:08:59
successful in uh in their careers women
00:09:03
on the other hand had had very different
00:09:04
reasons uh for their reduced interest in
00:09:08
having children one was uh greater
00:09:12
Freedom uh they they had a greater sense
00:09:15
of choosing not to become uh a mother uh
00:09:19
compared to their uh the the um gen xers
00:09:24
before them that the social pressures to
00:09:26
become a mother were not as great
00:09:29
uh they also were conflicted about their
00:09:32
role in society more women who felt that
00:09:36
uh it was important for them to be
00:09:39
contributing to social good through
00:09:41
their work those people saw a conflict
00:09:43
between that role and their ability uh
00:09:47
to have the time and attention that they
00:09:49
wanted uh for for children so those are
00:09:54
just some of the uh ways in which men
00:09:56
and women shifted over the course of
00:09:59
those two generations I think for me
00:10:01
what really struck me about that shift
00:10:03
that change is is almost like the the
00:10:05
Gen X uh cohort had these rose-colored
00:10:08
glasses on right the idea that they
00:10:10
could achieve it they could do it all
00:10:12
and um the Millennials uh went into it
00:10:15
with their eyes wide open this that you
00:10:17
mentioned in the book they're concerned
00:10:19
about student debt they're concerned
00:10:20
about climate change they're concerned
00:10:21
about social injustice um it reminded me
00:10:24
of a Betty for Dan the famous Betty for
00:10:26
Dan quote uh you can have it all just
00:10:28
not at the same time and it felt it felt
00:10:30
like the Millennials kind of got that
00:10:31
message so they were sort of scaling
00:10:33
back their expectations of what their
00:10:35
life might be like and understanding
00:10:36
that perhaps these are choices now that
00:10:38
they have to make that they cannot have
00:10:40
at all would you say that that's an
00:10:42
accurate uh sort of depiction of uh the
00:10:44
differences yeah one of the fascinating
00:10:47
of observations comparing those two
00:10:49
generations was that men seemed in their
00:10:53
attitudes to become more egalitarian in
00:10:56
terms of how you know two career uh
00:10:59
relationships were going to work where
00:11:01
men were going to be more active at home
00:11:04
and to be uh more equally Distributing
00:11:08
you know domestic responsibilities
00:11:10
however to your point women seem to have
00:11:14
um learned from the generation prior to
00:11:17
them uh some hard lessons uh that that
00:11:21
perhaps the Gen xers didn't quite
00:11:23
Envision with their more Rosy or
00:11:27
optimistic view about you know anything
00:11:29
being possible and so the uh the uh Gen
00:11:34
X women were less likely to have uh the
00:11:38
The View that relationships at home
00:11:41
would be egalitarian than their
00:11:43
forebears so they saw it as necessary to
00:11:47
make sacrifices more so than uh the
00:11:51
people 20 years prior to them uh the
00:11:55
result though is that the attitudes
00:11:58
about
00:11:59
egalitarian relationships two career
00:12:01
relationships and how they were going to
00:12:02
work converged uh and so they're more on
00:12:07
the same page now uh than men and women
00:12:10
are than they were in the past and that
00:12:13
uh that there's a note of optimism I
00:12:15
think that comes from that observation
00:12:17
definitely you you as you mentioned
00:12:18
there's good news there but it also what
00:12:20
was striking to me was just how much the
00:12:23
the men that you surveyed really um were
00:12:26
vocal about their concerns about their
00:12:28
worries yes they see uh women's careers
00:12:30
as being equal to theirs they see their
00:12:32
role in fatherhood as being much greater
00:12:34
than the generations previous to them
00:12:36
but they were also concerned about how
00:12:37
they were going to accomplish that as
00:12:39
well um if I ask you to prognosticate a
00:12:42
little bit into the future um if you
00:12:44
were to survey the attitudes of the
00:12:47
class of 2022 which would be 10 years
00:12:50
forward what do what kind of differences
00:12:51
do you think you might find
00:12:53
now well these last 10 years uh have
00:12:57
been um really tumultuous of course we
00:13:01
all know that uh and and the trends uh
00:13:04
that I observed in that earlier study
00:13:06
continue so birth rates continue to
00:13:09
decline uh in our society and it's it's
00:13:12
a frightening Prospect for the
00:13:14
future um the pandemic had a radical
00:13:20
shift uh in how people think about the
00:13:23
relationship between work and the rest
00:13:24
of life um there's a greater recognition
00:13:28
that people have lives outside of work
00:13:30
um there's also a greater recognition of
00:13:32
the need for uh us as a society to be
00:13:35
investing more in education uh as people
00:13:38
came to realize that uh professional
00:13:41
Educators do an enormous service to our
00:13:44
society and need need more support and
00:13:48
uh you not just economic but all kinds
00:13:50
of support in society um so there's a
00:13:54
greater recognition of the need to
00:13:56
support the whole person and to help
00:13:57
people to create bound boundaries among
00:13:59
the different parts of life uh and to
00:14:01
invest in the whole person that shift is
00:14:04
definitely happened it's a good thing
00:14:06
however the digital revolution has uh
00:14:09
created a a an environment in which it's
00:14:12
it's harder to focus uh on one thing at
00:14:16
a time it's harder to focus on work
00:14:18
people young people especially are even
00:14:21
more socially isolated and alienated
00:14:24
feeling lonely these are not my own
00:14:26
personal observations there's a lot of
00:14:27
research supporting this and I think
00:14:29
that makes it harder for them to connect
00:14:31
in ways that make them want to become
00:14:33
parents of course there's climate change
00:14:36
which has become a much more present
00:14:39
issue in the minds of most thinking
00:14:42
people uh and people who are informed
00:14:44
about what's happening in the world and
00:14:47
uh when I when I had a discussion about
00:14:50
the original findings of the baby bust
00:14:52
study uh in a recent class uh in my MBA
00:14:56
uh class on leadership from the point of
00:14:59
view of the whole person What I Call
00:15:00
Total
00:15:02
leadership um which is another outgrowth
00:15:04
of the work life integration project
00:15:07
another another topic which I won't
00:15:09
delve into here but in that class we had
00:15:12
people reading this the study findings
00:15:14
and then learning about what the impact
00:15:17
of climate change was going to be on the
00:15:19
future and our future business um ideas
00:15:22
and this was uh a heated debate uh that
00:15:26
ensued about well is it is it moral to
00:15:30
bring children into a world that is
00:15:32
going to be
00:15:33
uninhabitable so so there are those
00:15:36
kinds of concerns on top of all the
00:15:38
other uh sort of chaotic changes that
00:15:41
are happening in our world that I think
00:15:43
make it ever less likely for people to
00:15:46
feel confident in taking up the role of
00:15:50
uh being a parent I would love to have
00:15:52
been a fly on the wall in one of your
00:15:53
classrooms during one of those debates
00:15:55
um it's certainly a debate that you hear
00:15:56
pretty much in every corner now uh
00:15:58
younger older people doesn't matter um
00:16:00
it's just something that's on the top of
00:16:02
our our minds right now um let me ask
00:16:05
you one of the things that I really like
00:16:06
about this book is that it's not just a
00:16:08
summary of your research it's not just a
00:16:10
narrative you also offer these policy
00:16:13
recommendations okay doct Freeman what
00:16:15
can we do to fix it and you put those in
00:16:17
there you have them at the society level
00:16:19
which is more cultural policy you have
00:16:21
it at the organizational level and you
00:16:23
have it at the individual level and of
00:16:25
course we can't talk about all of them
00:16:26
but I was wondering if You' pick out
00:16:27
some of the ones that you feel are the
00:16:28
most important maybe the most doable
00:16:31
that we could start looking at well
00:16:33
where we have seen some change at the
00:16:35
policy level though not nearly fast or
00:16:38
enough substantial enough is in child
00:16:42
care and uh family leave there is no
00:16:45
reason why the United States cannot be
00:16:48
the world leader in providing real
00:16:51
support for families all kinds of
00:16:54
families uh and that starts with family
00:16:57
medical leave and child heare uh we are
00:17:00
woefully behind the rest of the world
00:17:04
the rest of the developed world for sure
00:17:07
uh and um you know that's a that's a
00:17:10
matter of political uh will uh we again
00:17:14
have made some progress not nearly
00:17:16
enough the real progress seems to be
00:17:18
happening at the municipal and state
00:17:20
levels that are more malleable perhaps
00:17:24
uh but at the federal level there's been
00:17:27
very little uh so that those are two
00:17:30
that's where I would start uh and there
00:17:32
are you growing movements uh of
00:17:36
political actors of Advocates of All
00:17:38
Sorts activists who are pressing for
00:17:41
this and you know that's something that
00:17:43
each and every one of us can have an
00:17:44
impact on in terms of the people we vote
00:17:46
for um at the at the organizational
00:17:49
level in businesses all kinds of
00:17:51
organizations there has also been
00:17:53
progress probably more progress on that
00:17:55
front where you have the private sector
00:17:57
responding to the demand of the labor
00:17:59
market wanting more flexibility and more
00:18:01
control over their lives so that they
00:18:03
can do the things that matter to them in
00:18:05
all the different parts of their lives
00:18:06
including becoming parents you see just
00:18:10
greater uh understanding and respect for
00:18:13
how to enact a a real flexible uh
00:18:16
workplace there are still many sources
00:18:19
of resistance to that uh including
00:18:21
traditional outmoded views about what u
00:18:24
a good working life looks like but that
00:18:26
is clearly changing and will continue to
00:18:29
as young people especially gen Z are you
00:18:33
know pressing up against and pushing for
00:18:36
change at the individual level and you
00:18:38
know within families I've done a lot of
00:18:40
work on that uh in what I referred to
00:18:44
earlier is the total leadership program
00:18:46
which I created when I was I took a
00:18:48
leave from Morton for a few years about
00:18:50
20 years ago to become head of
00:18:52
leadership development for Ford Motor
00:18:54
Company and what we did there was to
00:18:57
develop a model model of leadership
00:18:59
that's about the whole person we called
00:19:01
it total leadership and you can learn
00:19:03
all about that at and about the baby bus
00:19:05
study and some other research uh at
00:19:08
total leadership.org that is all about
00:19:12
how you learn to become a better leader
00:19:15
and have a richer Life by knowing what's
00:19:18
important to you knowing who's important
00:19:20
to you and experimenting continually
00:19:22
with how you get things done and we've
00:19:24
seen incredible results in helping
00:19:26
people to find greater freedom
00:19:28
and greater control of their lives to be
00:19:31
able to create a bit more Harmony in
00:19:33
their lives and to perform better and to
00:19:35
grow faster As Leaders the most recent
00:19:40
um version of that work is a book called
00:19:42
parents who lead where we took the the
00:19:46
essence of that total Leadership Model
00:19:48
and practice which is a course that I've
00:19:50
been teaching at Wharton now for over 20
00:19:52
years and we applied it to parents
00:19:56
people who are in the parenting project
00:19:58
together and so we had another set of
00:20:00
Orton alumni uh develop with us uh a set
00:20:04
of tools that help parents get on the
00:20:06
same page in terms of their values and
00:20:08
their Vision uh who is most important to
00:20:11
them and how to connect with them in
00:20:12
meaningful ways and how to experiment as
00:20:14
a family with new ways to become uh uh
00:20:20
more close to each other more trusting
00:20:22
and better able to meet the needs of
00:20:25
both parents or however many parents
00:20:27
there are and the children as it grows
00:20:30
uh in in uh in their communities and in
00:20:33
their business lives uh people are more
00:20:35
fruitful as a result because they are
00:20:37
consciously and deliberately creating
00:20:40
positive change that works for them
00:20:42
their families their businesses and
00:20:44
their communities uh so there there is
00:20:48
hope I think the the the best action
00:20:50
that I've seen and where I tend to focus
00:20:52
my background is is is as a psychologist
00:20:55
is at the individual and family levels
00:20:57
because I think that's where you can
00:20:58
have the most tangible kind of impact uh
00:21:02
so there is some hope but you know uh I
00:21:06
am pessimistic as we talk right now in
00:21:09
February
00:21:10
2024 about the prospects for positive
00:21:14
social change uh you know depending on
00:21:17
what happens uh in the upcoming election
00:21:19
I think it's going to have a profound
00:21:21
impact on so many aspects of social life
00:21:25
uh cultural life um including especially
00:21:29
uh in support for families and the kind
00:21:32
of
00:21:33
freedoms uh like control over our own
00:21:37
bodies for one and also how we choose to
00:21:40
live in the kinds of families we want to
00:21:43
create um so political action at this
00:21:47
time I think is an imperative for all of
00:21:49
us to try to create the world we want
00:21:51
we're definitely at a Tipping Point um
00:21:53
one of the things I wanted to bring out
00:21:54
uh when you are talking about the
00:21:56
individual level is you really in this
00:21:57
book you encourage people uh to push
00:22:01
back to challenge the stigmas of uh of
00:22:04
work being this badge of honor this
00:22:06
sense of heroism that I'm I'm working 10
00:22:08
12 14 hours a day you encourage in
00:22:11
particular men to push back against the
00:22:13
stigmas of uh masculinity um the one of
00:22:17
the phrases we use these days toxic
00:22:18
masculinity to sort of engage and this
00:22:21
what I'm hearing is this the sort of
00:22:22
idea that it can come from the top from
00:22:24
management from organizations and it can
00:22:25
also Bubble Up From The Bottom from
00:22:27
people saying no this isn't really how I
00:22:29
want to live my life I think I can find
00:22:31
a deeper richer more meaningful life in
00:22:33
both work and at home so I think that's
00:22:36
a really important message in your book
00:22:38
and and uh that it is possible to not
00:22:43
have it all at once as as you cited
00:22:46
Betty frean speaking but we can have
00:22:48
more of what we want as as people in
00:22:52
society parents and in other roles if we
00:22:55
take seriously the idea that to grow as
00:22:59
a person as a leader in your life you
00:23:02
need to really identify what's important
00:23:04
to you what's important to the people
00:23:05
around you and then continually look for
00:23:08
opportunities to make change that's good
00:23:10
for you and the people around you so to
00:23:13
get beyond the trade-off thinking that
00:23:16
the term work life balance canotes it's
00:23:18
a bad phrase because it's it compels you
00:23:22
to think about the trade-offs you must
00:23:24
make now of course trade-offs are
00:23:26
inevitable but there are more
00:23:29
opportunities to create positive change
00:23:31
that can have an impact on all the
00:23:34
different parts of your life if you are
00:23:36
intentional and smart about looking for
00:23:38
those starts with knowing what's
00:23:40
important to you who's important and
00:23:42
then looking for ways that you can act
00:23:44
to make a positive impact on the world
00:23:46
and and there are many many
00:23:48
opportunities and everyone can do this
00:23:50
yes so that does give me uh some hope
00:23:54
but it's a uh it's a difficult Road for
00:23:57
us given the political environment that
00:23:59
we're in right now let's stay let's stay
00:24:01
positive uh I'm going to close but I
00:24:03
wanted to read just a couple of
00:24:04
sentences from your book uh you say the
00:24:06
call to action described in this book is
00:24:08
as relevant now as it was 10 years ago
00:24:11
perhaps more so we can create a world in
00:24:14
which people are free to choose whether
00:24:16
to become parents and to make the
00:24:17
parenting path more feasible for those
00:24:19
who want to pursue it that's exactly
00:24:21
what we've been discussing in the last
00:24:23
couple of minutes what are your closing
00:24:25
thoughts on that where do you hope we
00:24:27
are in work life integration I won't use
00:24:29
the word balance uh 50 years from now
00:24:32
where will we
00:24:33
be I really think it's going to depend
00:24:35
on what happens this year in the
00:24:37
presidential election uh and you know if
00:24:41
if we have people who are thinking about
00:24:43
the future and thinking about us as a
00:24:46
society who are in positions of you know
00:24:49
executive Authority making choices about
00:24:52
investing in families and the the health
00:24:55
and education that they need to to be
00:24:57
supported in growing uh healthy
00:25:01
well-nourished and open-minded citizens
00:25:05
uh you know that that's going to help a
00:25:07
lot uh I think you know it's hard to
00:25:09
predict how the world's going to be 50
00:25:11
years from now uh you know and it's uh
00:25:17
you know my hope now as a grandfather
00:25:19
I'm I'm the proud grandfather of three
00:25:21
amazing people and I you know I think a
00:25:24
lot about them and about what their
00:25:26
world's going to be like
00:25:28
and my hope is that we will make choices
00:25:32
today that will that will enable them to
00:25:36
be free to choose the lives that they
00:25:39
want to
00:25:41
live uh in all aspects of their lives
00:25:44
That's My Hope and I hold on to that
00:25:47
hope and I doing what I can to try to
00:25:50
make that hope uh become real absolutely
00:25:54
thank you so much again the book is uh
00:25:56
called Baby bust uh
00:25:58
new choices for men and women in work
00:26:00
and family this is the 10th anniversary
00:26:01
edition it is put out by Wharton School
00:26:03
press you can download it or get a copy
00:26:05
from your favorite book seller uh I want
00:26:08
to thank Dr Stuart freedan for joining
00:26:10
me if you enjoyed this conversation you
00:26:12
can check out all our content on our
00:26:14
website it's uh just type knowledge of
00:26:17
warten into your search bar I'm Angie
00:26:19
basuni thank you for being
00:26:21
here thank you
00:26:23
Angie for more insight from knowledge at
00:26:26
Wharton please visit knowledge. won.
00:26:29
up.edu
00:26:32
[Music]
