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this podcast is brought to you by
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knowledge of Wharton
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[Music]
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hello my name is Stephanie creary and
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I'm an assistant professor of management
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at the Wharton School of the University
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of Pennsylvania and I'm delighted to
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welcome you to today's episode of the
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knowledge at Wharton leading diversity
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at work podcast series which is focused
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on Reproductive Rights and the impact on
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education and the workforce
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joining me today are three very special
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guests first we have Professor Bobby
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Thomason who is assistant professor of
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Applied Behavioral Science at graziadio
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business school Pepperdine University in
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California prior to that Bobby was a
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postdoctoral fellow at the war in school
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her research explores how individuals of
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traditionally underrepresented social
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categories at work
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um pursue their careers globally and
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work in the workplace she is
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particularly interested in how
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individuals overcome inequality and
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social hierarchies in order to attain
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career rewards and resources part of her
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research agenda focuses on how women
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overcome professional barriers to their
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career Ascension Bobby has worked in
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Conflict Management Consulting and as a
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research associate at Harvard Business
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School and the Harvard Kennedy School
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she also was the international research
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a fellow for Cheryl sandberg's book lean
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in women work and the will to lead and
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to the book option b facing adversity
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building resilience and finding Joy
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she's also a contributor to the lean in
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foundation and recently along with a
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number of business school professors
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from around the world Bobby published an
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article in the MIT Sloan management
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review which was focused on and entitled
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how organizations can take a lead in
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productive protecting Reproductive
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Rights next we have mega Bonsall Rizzoli
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who is director of employer mobilization
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at jobs for the future and an Alum of
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the Wharton MBA program Mega has over 15
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years of experience working in strategy
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and Innovation she started her career
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working for the federal government
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dabble in research and analytics at the
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Brookings institution and she spent
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close to a decade working in Consulting
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at monitor Deloitte where she focused on
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how large-scale disruptive Trends impact
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organizations communities and people
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Mega was also a fellow at the world
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economic Forum where she launched a
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major research initiative and
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publication at the 50th WF annual
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meeting in Davos in 2020. at jobs for
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the future Mega Drive strategy thought
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leadership and high impact initiatives
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focused on transforming policies and
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practices building capacities and
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driving behavior change of private
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sector employers and employer coalitions
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and associations towards Equitable
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economic advancement for all
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Mega's published thought leadership and
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guidance to employers on how best to
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respond to the Supreme Court decision
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that ended up overturning Roe v Wade and
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into she provided the thought leadership
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prior to the decision she's also shared
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these insights and others in both the
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popular press and at this year's South
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by Southwest edu conference
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and last we have Jen Stark who is
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co-director at the center for business
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and social justice at business for
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social responsibility she's been working
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for over the past year to prepare
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companies for the fall of row by
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addressing the workforce impact and
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identifying meaningful ways they can
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respond including advocacy data privacy
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risk mitigation and corporate political
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giving alignment prior to be to joining
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BSR gen directed Investments at the
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Terra Health Foundation to drive
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Behavior change among private sector
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employers on gender and racial Equity
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including historic progress on Paid
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Family and Medical Leave reproductive
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health and other workplace protections
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before working in philanthropy she
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founded the corporate relations program
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at Planned Parenthood Federation of
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America to unlock advocacy Grant making
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and employee support to preserve access
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to reproductive Healthcare Nationwide
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while at Planned Parenthood excuse me
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well at Planned Parenthood Jen also
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helped launch don't ban equality a
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national platform for businesses that
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reinforces abortion as a Workforce and
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economic issue so it goes without saying
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we have quite an accomplished group of
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panelists today for our leading
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diversity at work podcast welcome Bobby
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Mega and Jen I'm so delighted and
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honored to have you here with me today
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with us for what I hope will be a very
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interesting and provocative conversation
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about Reproductive Rights and the impact
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they are having have had will continue
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to have on education and the workforce
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so I would love to start us off by
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talking about the June 22 2022 Dobbs
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versus Jackson Women's Health
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Organization decision so this is the
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decision that overturned last year Roe v
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Wade and I want to just give ourselves
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our audience more of a sense of how you
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entered this conversation where you sit
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in this conversation and what your work
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is uh in related enriched this topic so
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Bobby let's start with you and how and
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why did you become involved in this
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topic focused on Reproductive Rights and
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organizations
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um the necessity for organizations to
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take it up and can you summarize some of
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the main parts of the MIT slow
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management review article I referenced
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earlier
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gladly thank you so much Stephanie for
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having us here and hosting this
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conversation which I think is only
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increasingly relevant in the world today
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so as you highly introduced I broadly
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study inequality at work and I'm very
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focused on the experiences of women to
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do that research I generally do
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inductive work so I will open with a
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broad-ended question about how and the
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principle of the work that I'm really
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trained in doing is to follow the data
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and one thing that keeps emerging from
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the data over more than a decade of my
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work is the ways in which life outside
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of work fundamentally shapes women's
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careers within organizations and I think
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as professionals uh ourselves and in the
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audience it it probably is
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just a given that in the midst of our
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careers life is happening
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um and so unsurprisingly for women
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children caregiving marriage uh these
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things really fundamentally shape
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their career so just as an example we
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find that uh research on the gender gap
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in earnings and Leadership is really a
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function of the fact that women and men
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have different career paths and women
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end up making choices as a result of the
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context in their families and their
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organizations where they pursue
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different paths and this really shapes
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their earnings so given the findings on
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just Parenthood and pregnancy it
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um
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the research on abortion access is also
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quite Stark that when individuals with
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uteruses do not have access to abortions
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they are more likely to be out of the
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workforce six months after that care is
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denied
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um and in the long term are more likely
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to end up in economically precarious
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situations and raising children in
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poverty
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so as a scholar the evidence on the
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connection between abortion rights
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Reproductive Rights and work is just
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um very fundamental so when the
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decision came out last June it was
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striking both as a scholar aware of the
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evidence and the consequences of of
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reproductive and abortion care
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and it also felt personal it was
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something that I worried what did this
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mean for the safety of myself for the
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people I care about for I have a young
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daughter what what is our country going
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to look like for her and the choices
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that she's going to be able to make
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so I had tweeted you know what can we do
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as management Scholars at this moment
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with a particular tools that we have and
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that led to multiple conversations
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with other faculty other Scholars and
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the first step was actually realizing
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that our own professional association
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hosts conferences that rotate around the
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U.S and we realized that in the past
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this had been in states where abortion
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access was now either illegal or
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severely limited
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and we got together and wrote a petition
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that over 500 management Scholars signed
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asking our association to not hold agree
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to not hold conferences in those States
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and ultimately our professional
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association did not support our petition
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and while that was
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quite disappointing the process of
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putting that petition together
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gave us a chance to think about what do
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we what do we want our own organization
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to be doing what could other
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organizations be doing and so
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collectively we wrote this article for
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MIT sloanmanagement review documenting
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the very clear consequences for
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employment
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and economic security when abortion
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access is denied and we specifically
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outlined five things that organizations
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could do for their employees in the wake
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of the Dobbs decision the first was to
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allow for remote work and locations
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flexibility suddenly the health care
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that individuals can access change
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dramatically and we really encouraged
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companies let your employees and workers
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make choices for themselves about where
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they are going to be safe
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second to support employees in accessing
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reproductive care this was a move that
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we did see a lot of organizations saying
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in the wake of Dobbs we will help pay if
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you need to travel to access abortion
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care the third thing we talked about was
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partnering with organizations that are
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experts in providing this care so this
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is something we see a lot of progressive
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companies doing around Family Planning
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and pregnancy and there are indeed
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organizations
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um like hey Jane and just the pill that
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are experts in supporting abortion care
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and that organizations can partner with
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because this is not expertise at every
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every company has the fourth thing and
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very poignant to us was to be careful
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about where you are holding your
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organizational events and conferences
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big conferences are professional
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development opportunities they are where
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people are seeing
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um senior folks in the organization that
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have control over promotions and key
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opportunities and when a predictable
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fraction and segment of your Workforce
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is not going to be safe attending those
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events you you're marginalizing and
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perpetuating inequalities and so we
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really felt very strongly and that felt
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personal about thinking about where are
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you going to have promotable career
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consequential events and the fifth thing
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was that we reminded organizations to be
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really careful to align
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where your money is going with the
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values you're purporting so we saw after
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the Dobbs decision lots of organizations
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were speaking in support
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um and many of them were also lobbying
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organization lobbying politicians
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that were supporting legislation that
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went specifically against those words so
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it also is really an opportunity for
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organizations to think about being
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consistent
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thank you so much Bobby I remember so
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Bobby and I belong to the same
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Professional Organization so I've
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watched all of this unfold and you know
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I remember when you all posted to our
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group
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um chat uh that uh the association had
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not been supportive but you know
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something that I think was helpful to me
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I didn't I think admittedly when we
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started talking about where the
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conference should be held I I didn't
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make all of the links
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um as to sort of like why that would be
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a problem outside of the values right
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but we all have different values you
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know some people are in our organization
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Association our pro-choice and some are
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pro-life and so it wasn't really about
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that it wasn't about declaring us as you
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know a pro-choice organization and so
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don't hold conferences in places like it
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wasn't that it was the one part of what
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I think it was in one of the various
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pieces that you all wrote whether it was
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to the group or to publicly it was
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understanding that you know conditions
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under which someone might need access to
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abortion care
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and one of those that really resonated
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with me was um you know at various
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stages of of a pregnancy the pregnancy
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May no longer be viable right and this
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may be a wanted and desired pregnancy
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and the answer to that pregnancy becomes
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abortion like that's the only option and
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so if that happens to you and you're in
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one of these states
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um you will have have a hard time
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accessing that care that you need for
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this pregnancy that you probably did
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want but is no longer viable that to me
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sounded really um also interesting and
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important and I felt like that could
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even resonate with people who are
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pro-life is as like this is it is a
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danger to the to the person with the
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uterus
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um to to keep that pregnancy like it's a
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life or definite matter to them and then
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if you're in a state that
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um says that this is not something that
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we provide now your life is truly in
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danger were there other examples
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um that you can speak to that I think
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would help people who protect perhaps
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um are more along the lines of you know
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I don't know why abortion it matters to
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a conversation about where we hold
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conferences that I didn't already
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explicate that was the one that stood
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out to me as perhaps helping some people
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find Clarity around the importance of
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this issue
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well yes exactly I mean I think you're
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raising a critical point which is a lot
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of us in writing the article wrote from
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the perspective as mothers or along the
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way of our journey to being mothers
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um and I think it can't be emphasized
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enough that
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what has been
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curtailed in the wake of this
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legislation are medical procedures that
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are also necessary for people who
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desperately and happily want to become
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parents but depending on how a pregnancy
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goes a DNC
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which is now a procedure that
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um will be considered an abortion and is
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uh illegal by punishable as a felony in
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in states in the country now is what is
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necessary in the case of a pregnancy not
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becoming viable and so I have had uh
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even friends talk about having
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um a a miscarriage while traveling and
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thinking about what does that look like
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today
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um suddenly we're making questions about
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you know thinking through are we going
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to be safe and
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um I think we'll continue to talk about
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this in our conversation but we're
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seeing you know doctors are really being
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constrained in what they can do and this
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is leading to doctors leaving States
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uh hospitals I mean just this week in
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the news hospital is closing their
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maternity Awards because they cannot
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safely deliver babies anymore
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um
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it it
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the ripple effect of this
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this decision is really quite wide thank
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you so much Bobby let me turn to you
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Mega can you share it with us a little
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bit about the work that you've been
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doing in this area as well so so as I
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mentioned when when I introduced you is
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that you know Mega is an Alum of the
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Wharton School she actually was also in
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my first uh leading diversity
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um in organizations class that I taught
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at war end back in
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2017 or 2018 you're in the class I can't
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remember now but
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um interestingly Meg and I have had a
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number of different contexts over the
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years certainly initiated by you or
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you've invited me to be part of things
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that you're doing and one of the things
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that you recently invited me to be part
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of was a panel that you put together for
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South by Southwest edu we talked about
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many of these issues and topics I
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actually Bobby referred to your article
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and some of the insights from your
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article during this topic but so can you
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share a little bit more about that and
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other activities Mega that you've been
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involved in with respect to this the
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topic of Reproductive Rights yes
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Stephanie thank you um and thank you for
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having me
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uh my work at jobs for the future really
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focuses on unlocking the potential of
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the private sector to drive Equitable
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economic advancement for all and Bobby
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as you've just laid out I mean when we
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think about Reproductive Rights and
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abortion care and as we've seen this
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play out this is a huge issue around
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economic mobility and a huge issue for
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employers
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um the stats are incredible right and
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you highlighted some of them too Bobby I
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mean one in four working women will have
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an abortion in their lifetime and as you
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mentioned women who do not have access
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to abortion care are three times more
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likely to leave the workforce and four
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times more likely to have a household
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income below the federal poverty line
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not to mention sort of the economic
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impacts on state so State abortion laws
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are costing over a hundred billion
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dollars annually in reduced labor force
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participation and productivity and
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reduced earnings so last year when this
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was the one the decision was leaked you
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know at JF at jobs future jff we knew we
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needed to do and say something about it
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and so in response to that my
00:19:06
organization we first quickly organized
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to adapt our own benefits and policies
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to support the preservation of
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Reproductive Rights for our employees no
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matter where they live we work in all 50
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States including travel benefits Flex
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time off and a number of other things we
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also quickly organized our own call to
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action for employers to do more to
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support Reproductive Rights Beyond just
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the travel benefits that so many have
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now started providing so extending
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benefits plans going Beyond this to talk
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about time off flexibility Child Care
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checking in on employees psychological
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safety and creating spaces for that
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dialogue and you know among other things
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examining corporate policies around
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political donations and sort of how
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you're aligning values and a lot of the
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work that we outlined Bobby matches up
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quite nicely was sort of what the call
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to action that you also had that this is
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really about how employers can be
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supporting employee well-being job
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quality
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um so our our work really focuses on
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that we we think about and we do uh work
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on how to help employers become become
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good become better right and become more
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impactful
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um in prioritizing employee well-being
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and job quality um we view this as a
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critical component of that
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um I will also say on the personal front
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uh I you know I'm going to tear up here
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because I was you know three months
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pregnant when this decision came out and
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found out we were having a baby girl on
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the day that this decision was leaked
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and so this was incredibly personal for
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me as I thought about what this was
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going to mean for the future of my my
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little girl's life right and and the
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decisions and the country she was going
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to grow up in
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she's six months old now so everything
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is is great
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um but I view this as a little bit of of
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my dedication to her right and the life
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and the and the country I want her to
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live in so it was very personal for me
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too and everything you shared about
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being a working mother right now and
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thinking about how these issues play out
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on the personal and the work front
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um it's just very core to to my
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motivation and passion around this as
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well so
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thank you Mega let's turn to you Jen
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welcome I would love to hear more about
00:21:19
the work that you've been doing in this
00:21:21
area which has certainly been quite
00:21:24
um extensive
00:21:25
um and I would say intentional as well
00:21:28
so can you share with us uh what you've
00:21:30
been doing
00:21:31
yeah I just want to reiterate thanks
00:21:33
again for creating a space for this
00:21:35
conversation and for the team at at
00:21:38
knowledge at Wharton for for recognizing
00:21:41
abortion as a Workforce and an economic
00:21:44
issue if I could you know go back 50
00:21:47
years and wave a magic wand I would make
00:21:50
abortion as much about economic
00:21:52
empowerment and economic Justice is
00:21:54
anything else
00:21:56
um I think it's also important
00:21:59
um as I share a bit more about how I
00:22:01
approach the work just to level set
00:22:02
currently that abortions now banned in
00:22:06
14 States following the overturn of Roe
00:22:08
a year nearly a year ago these states
00:22:11
are mostly in the Southeast and Deep
00:22:13
South uh in many states the fight over
00:22:17
abortion access is still taking place in
00:22:19
courtrooms Daily uh while other states
00:22:22
have moved
00:22:24
um to expand and protect access to
00:22:26
abortion so all that said I was among
00:22:29
the founders of the don't ban equal
00:22:31
platform back in 2019 and what was then
00:22:35
a historic spike in state level abortion
00:22:38
restrictions companies were calling
00:22:40
leading reproductive health
00:22:42
organizations like Planned Parenthood
00:22:43
ACLU Center for Reproductive Rights
00:22:46
neural pro-choice America to understand
00:22:48
the impact of abortion bans at the time
00:22:51
in Georgia and in the Midwest and
00:22:53
struggling to find ways to talk about it
00:22:56
so don't manage quality is now a
00:22:59
coalition of more than 800 businesses
00:23:01
from large to small making the case that
00:23:04
policies that restrict reproductive
00:23:06
Health Care are bad for business and
00:23:09
don't pay inequality was actually just
00:23:10
recognized by Fast Company
00:23:13
um among the world-changing ideas and
00:23:16
you know as everyone said so far access
00:23:18
to abortion care impacts business
00:23:20
operations workplace benefits Workforce
00:23:23
health and safety Talent mobility and
00:23:26
it's important also to underscore that
00:23:28
access to abortion is supported by 75
00:23:31
percent of Americans believe
00:23:33
reproductive Health Care decisions
00:23:34
should be between patients and providers
00:23:37
and the majority of residents in 43
00:23:40
States say abortion should be legal and
00:23:44
this is playing out in states where
00:23:45
we've seen ballot measures like Michigan
00:23:47
Kentucky and Kansas and so from where I
00:23:51
sit now at BSR at 30 plus year old
00:23:53
organization that works with business
00:23:55
particularly large companies on a range
00:23:57
of issues across the globe we've been
00:23:59
preparing business to respond to the
00:24:01
fall of row and I've been telling them
00:24:03
that this is just the end of the
00:24:05
beginning
00:24:06
so we've helped companies understand
00:24:08
this for what it is this is an ongoing
00:24:12
slow-moving Public Health crisis that
00:24:16
you know leaves companies as as a
00:24:19
firewall whether they want to be or not
00:24:21
when it comes to their workers accessing
00:24:24
abortion care
00:24:26
absolutely absolutely
00:24:28
um this conversation's already been Rich
00:24:30
so far uh and what we're gonna do from
00:24:33
here is is continue to Pat unpack a lot
00:24:36
of what you were saying maybe I'm gonna
00:24:38
go Mega I'm gonna go back to you
00:24:40
um so the mission of jff jobs for the
00:24:43
future which is your employer is to
00:24:45
drive transformation of the American
00:24:47
Workforce and education systems to
00:24:49
achieve Equitable economic advancement
00:24:51
for us that's a stated mission on the
00:24:53
website
00:24:55
um but I think it might be hard for some
00:24:57
people to automatically link a
00:24:59
conversation about Reproductive Rights
00:25:00
in the Dobbs decision to that mission so
00:25:04
can you connect the dots for us a little
00:25:06
bit more yeah absolutely
00:25:09
um so I'll repeat it again so as you
00:25:11
said our mission is around achieving
00:25:13
Equitable economic advancement for all
00:25:16
and the truth of the matter is that for
00:25:18
for women and and particularly women
00:25:20
working in low-wage jobs and women of
00:25:23
color this access can mean the
00:25:25
difference between I mean economic
00:25:28
insecurity and economic advancement and
00:25:31
the choice to participate in the
00:25:32
workforce often unfortunately comes down
00:25:35
to issues of Access to Health Care and
00:25:36
child care in this country and the data
00:25:38
backs us up
00:25:40
um I remember there was a survey last
00:25:42
year I think from from Courts at work
00:25:44
that found that 40 of women who sought
00:25:46
abortion cited financial reasons as a
00:25:48
factor so huge socio socioeconomic
00:25:52
concerns the driver of decisions to
00:25:54
participate in the labor force not to
00:25:57
mention uh when you consider things like
00:25:58
the time and money required to cross
00:26:00
state lines for medical services and the
00:26:03
disproportionate effect that this has on
00:26:06
communities of color who you know for
00:26:08
due to many structural reasons often may
00:26:12
have inadequate health coverage and
00:26:14
insurance
00:26:15
that could be contributing to unplanned
00:26:17
pregnancies
00:26:18
um so it's a critical issue for
00:26:20
Equitable economic advancement and a
00:26:22
critical issue in which employers have a
00:26:24
huge role as we've started to talk about
00:26:27
this also you know two-thirds of
00:26:29
college-educated workers said that they
00:26:31
wouldn't take a job in a state that had
00:26:34
an abortion ban and almost half said
00:26:36
they would move if the state was rolling
00:26:38
things out and this was over a year ago
00:26:40
and I'm curious to see now how that
00:26:42
actually has played out right and it
00:26:44
goes beyond employers so if those
00:26:46
planning to enroll in an undergrad
00:26:48
program 39 said that the overturn was a
00:26:52
factor in their decision to attend or
00:26:54
stay in school
00:26:56
so I'll pause here but for me that's
00:26:59
massive right you think about the the
00:27:01
ramifications of this on education and
00:27:04
on Workforce
00:27:06
um it it's it's very hard to deny the
00:27:09
linkage there and I think when you play
00:27:11
this out a couple years you play this
00:27:13
out choices around where to go to school
00:27:15
if to go to school where to live they
00:27:19
have just huge economic impact so
00:27:21
um that's sort of the linkages we see it
00:27:23
both in terms of the economic
00:27:25
advancement and the role that employers
00:27:27
really can be doing to mitigating the
00:27:31
um the Fallout from this decision yeah
00:27:33
very compelling I don't know if you if
00:27:35
your organization or any organizations
00:27:37
that you know are actually doing
00:27:39
research to track this over time we all
00:27:42
know I mean here at the Wharton School
00:27:44
as well as many of our institutions
00:27:45
these days right it's like what's the
00:27:46
day to say and you all have done such a
00:27:49
fantastic job of giving us the data in
00:27:51
addition to sort of your broad insights
00:27:53
on these topics as well and your
00:27:54
perspectives I think what will be
00:27:57
especially compelling important over
00:27:59
time is that we have this longitudinal
00:28:02
understanding of of how not just one
00:28:05
year later what the implications are but
00:28:07
but the larger Fallout because these
00:28:09
become the basis for you know other
00:28:12
legislative opportunities and changes as
00:28:14
well so Jen continuing this theme I can
00:28:18
imagine that businesses and employers
00:28:20
more broadly might be struggling uh to
00:28:23
understand their place in this
00:28:25
conversation about Reproductive Rights I
00:28:27
mean I think we all know in many of the
00:28:28
people who are listening to this podcast
00:28:31
understand that you know businesses
00:28:33
always had somewhat of a tense or
00:28:35
precarious understanding of its
00:28:38
relationship to broader societal issues
00:28:41
and concerns
00:28:42
um we also know and I also experience
00:28:45
this personally and professionally that
00:28:47
when the decision came out there weren't
00:28:50
a lot immediately of employers who
00:28:52
wanted to get on camera or to be
00:28:54
recorded saying what they were doing on
00:28:57
this topic so to the extent that
00:28:58
Reproductive Rights felt especially
00:29:01
taboo I know that was felt um I know
00:29:04
even myself as a diversity scholar I was
00:29:07
trying to figure out like what is the
00:29:08
right way to talk about this
00:29:10
conversation and how does this relate to
00:29:12
the topics I normally talk about around
00:29:14
diversity and so you know I've used
00:29:16
opportunities to engage with you know
00:29:18
people who who have your backgrounds and
00:29:20
some of you individually to to upskill
00:29:23
myself that said I can imagine Jen that
00:29:27
there are still businesses and employers
00:29:28
who are still struggling to understand
00:29:30
their place in this conversation so how
00:29:32
have you been helping them to make sense
00:29:34
of their roles and responsibilities on
00:29:36
this top
00:29:37
I think that is
00:29:39
um the the the Cornerstone question here
00:29:43
Stephanie and um I appreciate all the
00:29:45
the the
00:29:47
um research and stats that um Bobby and
00:29:50
Mega have brought in so far if if I had
00:29:52
to put it you know on a bumper sticker
00:29:54
for business right now I'd say the
00:29:56
sidelines are no longer the middle
00:29:58
ground uh this issue is literally
00:30:01
showing up on the doorsteps of companies
00:30:05
um you know nearly 60 percent of women
00:30:07
of reproductive health age live in a
00:30:09
state hostile to abortion access
00:30:13
and as mentioned the Institute for
00:30:15
Women's policy research citing
00:30:18
um the existing costs of restrictions in
00:30:20
terms of Labor Force impact and earnings
00:30:22
is conservatively over 100 billion
00:30:26
dollars annually and new research will
00:30:28
be coming out in the coming weeks and
00:30:30
now without Rose setting some kind of
00:30:33
constitutional floor if you will
00:30:36
um companies are having to mind what
00:30:38
I'll call the quote-unquote collateral
00:30:40
damage of abortion restrictions in a way
00:30:43
that we haven't that they haven't had to
00:30:46
historically So speaking of data on BSR
00:30:49
recently commissioned
00:30:51
um some polling from morning consult
00:30:54
that affirms and this is for the second
00:30:56
year in a row and I appreciate the
00:30:59
um the academic research expertise on
00:31:02
this call as well and we'll continue to
00:31:03
do this so that we do start to get some
00:31:05
longitudinal data This research affirms
00:31:07
that by a two to one margin workers
00:31:10
across all demographics
00:31:12
um educational levels income levels
00:31:16
Etc want to live in a state where
00:31:18
abortion is legal and accessible folks
00:31:20
already mentioned the new data coming
00:31:23
out about prospective and current
00:31:25
college student preferences and I do
00:31:27
think higher education is such an
00:31:29
important economic driver in States and
00:31:32
I think part of the Hidden costs of
00:31:34
State restrictions that folks I think
00:31:36
will come to realize perhaps a bit late
00:31:38
and I think Bobby mentioned at the
00:31:41
outset I think it was on PBS NewsHour a
00:31:43
few days ago they did this incredibly
00:31:45
compelling segment on OB gyns in Idaho
00:31:48
who are leaving the state in mass and
00:31:51
hospitals are closing their maternity
00:31:53
Wards because of the state's abortion
00:31:54
ban
00:31:56
um and the ambiguity around what care
00:31:58
that they can provide one of the
00:32:00
Physicians who left Idaho said something
00:32:02
like do I have to wait till I need to
00:32:04
perform CPR do I have to wait till she
00:32:07
bleeds out
00:32:09
um there's little a company can do to
00:32:12
make up for a healthcare desert in a
00:32:14
state without engaging in some of the
00:32:16
structural issues so on that note I
00:32:19
think it was notable in Watershed
00:32:22
um how companies are finding ways to
00:32:24
speak out through industry groups like
00:32:26
how the biotech and pharmaceutical
00:32:28
Association signed recent amicus briefs
00:32:31
to the courts when a judge in Texas was
00:32:34
willing to sort of throw chaos into the
00:32:36
gold standard FDA regulatory process to
00:32:39
enact his own agenda to try to ban one
00:32:42
of the drugs used in medication abortion
00:32:44
in the U.S you know we are hearing about
00:32:47
companies considering travel policies
00:32:49
that restrict hosting events in places
00:32:52
where abortions illegal or where their
00:32:54
workers may be unsafe and unable to
00:32:57
access emergency care if they need it I
00:33:00
think increased restrictions are also
00:33:02
prompting new questions relevant in the
00:33:05
long term to corporate site selection
00:33:07
whether that's office location you know
00:33:11
warehousing other types of footprint
00:33:14
business might have I do think site
00:33:16
selection is the new quote-unquote
00:33:18
boycott if you will
00:33:20
um finally finally I think
00:33:23
um companies are
00:33:26
increasingly cognizant
00:33:29
um and actions are starting to be taken
00:33:33
behind the scenes to minimize or at
00:33:35
least consider the harm when it comes to
00:33:37
data collection and storage and I'm not
00:33:39
talking just about tech companies also
00:33:42
financial service companies and REITs
00:33:44
and retailers who need
00:33:46
who realize they need to mind the
00:33:48
unintended consequences of the
00:33:49
information they have on users and
00:33:51
consumers in this Minefield of
00:33:54
state-by-state public policies where
00:33:56
abortion may be you know illegal in one
00:33:58
place illegal in another and you have
00:34:00
policies that seek to criminalize anyone
00:34:02
who quote unquote AIDS in a bets and
00:34:05
this isn't some you know dystopian novel
00:34:07
or movie this is you know the state of
00:34:09
America in 2023 so I'd say companies are
00:34:13
um even if you don't even if there's not
00:34:15
always the press release about a
00:34:17
particular company's stance or policy
00:34:19
there's a lot going on behind the scenes
00:34:21
absolutely absolutely Bobby you've
00:34:24
already covered some of this but I just
00:34:25
want to give you the chance to to say
00:34:27
more
00:34:28
um and then to begin to offer some
00:34:30
recommendations we've spent some time
00:34:32
talking about like all the issues and
00:34:34
the challenges but at first what I'd
00:34:37
like to hear you share more about is is
00:34:39
you know this is this is a topic you
00:34:41
know where it is important to you you
00:34:44
said it personally it felt important
00:34:46
professionally it felt related to the
00:34:49
research that you do on issues of gender
00:34:52
and diversity broadly in the workplace
00:34:54
and how that affects careers and you're
00:34:57
also an educator right you teach
00:34:59
students in a higher education setting
00:35:01
would love to hear more about the the
00:35:04
links that you draw to the
00:35:05
meaningfulness of this topic to the to
00:35:07
the education setting and then if you
00:35:09
want to begin to kick us off by offering
00:35:11
what you see as as the way forward
00:35:14
um in the different spheres you touch
00:35:16
that would be great
00:35:18
sounds great so let me start off
00:35:20
addressing how I'm thinking about this
00:35:22
as a scholar and an educator
00:35:25
the first is that uh in the follow-up to
00:35:29
that MIT Sloan article several of us are
00:35:32
working on empirical projects we clearly
00:35:36
as as a team of Scholars care about this
00:35:39
issue and want to understand it more and
00:35:43
So based on some pre-testing and recent
00:35:46
data we've collected what we're seeing
00:35:48
is that job Seekers care very much about
00:35:53
having access to abortion and
00:35:56
reproductive care
00:35:57
um so when we ask individuals to
00:36:00
prioritize factors of a job abortion
00:36:04
access is in the top few items and mega
00:36:07
mentioned this survey that came out a
00:36:09
year ago showing that job Seekers don't
00:36:12
want to move to a state where abortion
00:36:15
is legal or restricted so very
00:36:17
consistent with those findings and we
00:36:21
are in the midst of ongoing data
00:36:23
collection and so I I will look forward
00:36:26
to having more to say as we further
00:36:28
unpack the data but
00:36:30
for now I feel quite confident between
00:36:33
the pre-testing I've been doing with my
00:36:36
collaborators and and surveys that have
00:36:38
come out before that this really is
00:36:40
something that job Seekers care about
00:36:42
and it is a priority to them
00:36:45
as Stephanie mentioned I'm also an
00:36:48
educator I have students that I talk to
00:36:53
about their career choices and even my
00:36:56
past students it's been many years since
00:36:58
I was at Wharton but I keep in touch
00:37:00
with those students and as I open saying
00:37:03
I increasingly am thinking about the
00:37:06
ways in which life happens along the way
00:37:09
of us pursuing our careers and so it is
00:37:12
something I have
00:37:13
in recent years become very proactive in
00:37:18
talking about with my students that I
00:37:21
really encourage them starting in the
00:37:23
content of my class to think about what
00:37:25
is the life you want to be leading
00:37:26
holistically what are you your values
00:37:29
where do you find joy and how is that
00:37:31
going to be
00:37:33
a part of the job and career decisions
00:37:37
you make and so it's very sobering
00:37:40
realizing in the past year that I am now
00:37:44
including in that conversation where are
00:37:47
you going to feel safe where can you get
00:37:50
the health care that you need or by
00:37:54
default where is your partner going to
00:37:57
feel safe is this a place that they can
00:37:59
live with you and that is a conversation
00:38:01
I am having with my you know with
00:38:04
students with past students and with my
00:38:06
friends and peers this is not
00:38:09
um the conversations with my students
00:38:11
are frankly not that different from
00:38:12
conversations I have with friends and
00:38:15
peers that I am watching multiple people
00:38:18
move and take new positions because they
00:38:23
overnight the place that they lived was
00:38:25
no longer safe for them and their family
00:38:27
yeah very sobering thank you for for
00:38:30
your recommendations and I think for
00:38:32
keeping it
00:38:33
um very close to home I think personally
00:38:35
and professionally again because you and
00:38:37
I come from the same field and and we
00:38:40
share the same background and we study
00:38:42
similar things every time I hear you
00:38:44
talk it feels like you are talking
00:38:46
straight to me and I'm sure other people
00:38:48
listening will feel that as well so
00:38:50
thank you so much Bobby Mega let's turn
00:38:52
to you when you think about all the
00:38:54
spaces you touch what recommendations do
00:38:58
you have for the people in them
00:39:02
so
00:39:04
I I do want to highlight there's a
00:39:05
bright spot here we have seen more work
00:39:08
and more I mean as Jen you laid out with
00:39:10
don't be inequality 800 companies have
00:39:13
signed on it's just incredible work that
00:39:15
you all are leading and doing and
00:39:18
there's a lot of great momentum from
00:39:20
employers but I will say you know many
00:39:22
workers aren't satisfied still right so
00:39:25
one month after after the decision less
00:39:27
than 10 percent of companies had made a
00:39:29
public statement and though many more
00:39:31
have taken action now there's a recent
00:39:34
survey um from catalyst
00:39:36
uh let's say 44 of their of workers want
00:39:40
to see their employers doing more to
00:39:42
ensure abortion access and half of
00:39:44
younger employees don't think their
00:39:46
companies are doing enough
00:39:48
um and it goes so far to even
00:39:49
characterize some employers responses as
00:39:52
performative on without real substance
00:39:55
and those are not my words
00:39:56
um necessarily but I guess my call to
00:39:59
action recommendation is
00:40:01
to employers I mean you have to listen
00:40:03
to your talent right listen to your
00:40:05
employees that Talent is is the driver
00:40:08
of growth and Innovation
00:40:11
um for companies and they want I mean
00:40:13
Bobby your research says it they want
00:40:15
and deserve workplaces that prioritize
00:40:18
their well-being and their psychological
00:40:20
and physical safety
00:40:22
um the quality of their experiences the
00:40:24
ability to advance and learn and develop
00:40:27
and grow and build careers that serve
00:40:30
them holistically in all aspects of
00:40:31
their life
00:40:33
so that would be a recommendation is you
00:40:35
you have to turn inward this isn't about
00:40:37
a statement you put out
00:40:40
um this isn't about you know a PR
00:40:42
campaign this is about the work and the
00:40:45
work of making your workplace one that
00:40:47
all employees can thrive in
00:40:50
um and then you you talked about the
00:40:52
work that we touch and we also touch
00:40:54
work with employees and I guess a call
00:40:55
to action for employees would be
00:40:58
ask more right do you know you should be
00:41:00
voicing your opinions and encouraging
00:41:02
leadership to make changes and I love
00:41:04
seeing the data and the stats about how
00:41:07
people are voting with their feet so to
00:41:09
speak where they're going to go to
00:41:10
school where they're going to work it's
00:41:12
troubling when you think about the
00:41:14
long-term impacts but it's also a mover
00:41:17
for this and so of course there have to
00:41:20
be psychologically safe Avenues to do
00:41:21
this in the workplace
00:41:23
um but I think worker voice and
00:41:26
employees kind of using and and
00:41:29
and using their voice to really Drive
00:41:31
organizational behavior change is
00:41:33
critical especially at a time where we
00:41:35
are
00:41:36
only going to be seeing more and more
00:41:39
social and political issues colliding
00:41:41
with business
00:41:42
um so those would be two call to actions
00:41:44
listen to your employees use your voice
00:41:46
they go really well together
00:41:48
absolutely thank you Mega for for your
00:41:51
offering all of your your insights today
00:41:53
and and for those um very concrete
00:41:56
recommendations Jen will close out
00:41:59
recommendations with you what do you
00:42:01
think when you from the standpoint of
00:42:04
the employers who you work with or even
00:42:06
if you have recommendations for
00:42:07
individual employees what do you think
00:42:09
they should do more of or do differently
00:42:11
going forward yeah um I just want to
00:42:14
touch back on on that on that last
00:42:15
question really quick though when you
00:42:16
talk about other collateral damage and
00:42:19
impact that employers and companies need
00:42:22
to be cognizant of when access to
00:42:24
abortion and reproductive Health Care
00:42:26
Providers go away or become severely
00:42:29
restricted it also impacts the
00:42:33
availability of lgbtq inclusive care
00:42:36
energy geography the availability of
00:42:40
um of of IVF and artificial reproductive
00:42:43
Technologies so again there's all these
00:42:45
secondary and tertiary sort of Fallout
00:42:48
that again folks I think are just
00:42:49
beginning
00:42:51
um to understand and that employers are
00:42:53
realizing that they're also left to to
00:42:55
have to navigate as well
00:42:57
um
00:42:58
I I circling back to this question on
00:43:01
what employers need to do more of or do
00:43:03
differently going forward
00:43:05
there's not enough bus plane or train
00:43:08
tickets
00:43:09
um that a company can can help subsidize
00:43:13
or provide uh to help workers get the
00:43:15
care that they need
00:43:17
um even if they've you know done what
00:43:18
they can to sort of pull that lever of
00:43:21
toggling toggling their benefits and
00:43:23
maybe are trying to mind are there are
00:43:25
they offering their benefits in you know
00:43:27
the most inclusive inclusive and
00:43:29
accessible way
00:43:31
um it's long overdue and circling back
00:43:33
to something that Bobby said at the
00:43:34
outset it's long overdue that companies
00:43:37
align their corporate political giving
00:43:39
with other stated commitments as well as
00:43:41
operational risks so you know the
00:43:44
collateral damage of supporting elected
00:43:46
officials hell-bent on Banning abortion
00:43:49
just doesn't make sense and is is bad
00:43:52
for State business climates
00:43:54
um it's interesting to note that after
00:43:55
environment and climate concerns
00:43:58
political giving alignment had the
00:44:00
second most shareholder resolutions so
00:44:03
far this proxy season so there's a proof
00:44:06
point that investors are concerned about
00:44:09
the risks operational reputational and
00:44:12
Beyond as well I'll call it Ria Ventures
00:44:14
is leading some important investor
00:44:16
engagement work in the space Also
00:44:19
there's
00:44:20
um uh some data points that you know
00:44:22
it's two-thirds of college-educated
00:44:24
workers say contributions to candidates
00:44:27
uh or elected officials who support
00:44:30
Banning abortion would make them feel
00:44:32
less positively about their company if
00:44:35
their company where it was contributing
00:44:36
to these elected officials and and they
00:44:38
and they understood understood that and
00:44:40
that information was readily available
00:44:41
to them
00:44:43
um so I just thought that was an
00:44:44
interesting data point and really also
00:44:45
kind of brings back to the point Mega
00:44:47
raised about how it's it's a combination
00:44:50
of
00:44:51
um of employers and and worker voice
00:44:54
that um you know needs to hit a critical
00:44:57
mass here to bring about the structural
00:44:59
change that we need absolutely well this
00:45:02
has certainly been I think for me a very
00:45:04
um inspiring conversation on many levels
00:45:07
and I think what I find inspiring about
00:45:08
it is the work that you all are doing
00:45:11
um and that the work that you're doing
00:45:13
is is not only data driven but it's it's
00:45:16
it's it's real and authentic and it's
00:45:18
based on sort of people's lived daily
00:45:20
experiences and stories that we can all
00:45:23
get behind I find you know as a
00:45:25
scientist and as an educator is you know
00:45:28
people come to understand
00:45:31
um issues and topics and whether or not
00:45:32
they should jump into it or jump out of
00:45:34
them based on our ability to uh appeal
00:45:37
to to their senses and so we know that
00:45:41
some people need the facts and the
00:45:42
figures and you all have done an amazing
00:45:44
job just helping us understand the
00:45:47
magnitude of the problem but also the
00:45:49
opportunity here but I think also people
00:45:52
need to see themselves in it right see
00:45:54
what how this might affect them
00:45:56
personally and so I just want to thank
00:45:58
you for offering what I feel is a very
00:46:00
balanced perspective data wise both with
00:46:03
numbers and in both in terms of
00:46:05
qualitative stories on this topic uh so
00:46:08
thank you Bobby Mega and Jen for joining
00:46:10
us today thanks for sharing all of your
00:46:12
insights and your expertise I truly
00:46:14
truly appreciate you for being here with
00:46:16
me in conversation and I want to thank
00:46:19
all of our listeners for joining us and
00:46:21
for listening to this episode of the
00:46:22
knowledge at Wharton leading diversity
00:46:24
at what work podcast series goodbye for
00:46:27
now
00:46:29
for more insight from knowledge of
00:46:31
Wharton please visit
00:46:32
knowledge.worton.upen.edu
00:46:35
[Music]
