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I'm Adam Grant I'm here with caty K
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co-author of The Confidence Code welcome
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catd thank you Adam so what drove you to
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write this book you know we wrote
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another book six as so often happens you
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write one book and you end up writing
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another book so we wrote a book about
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six years ago on the value of women in
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the workforce and for that book we
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interviewed a lot of senior women in
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business in the military in politics and
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we were struck by phrases that they
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would use phrases like I'm just lucky to
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have got where I've got to or I was in
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the right place at the right time or you
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know I think I'm not quite ready for
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that promotion yet and it occurred to us
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that we never heard men say things like
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this and what was going on how could
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this be what is it you all think you
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deserve that next promotion immediately
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and uh it just struck us that something
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was happening with women in the
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professional space that was not
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happening in their home lives when you
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ask them about their kids or their
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friends they think they're great you
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know they're they're totally confidence
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of their ability to make friendships or
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be great mothers or supportive wives but
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get them into the professional space and
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we wondered if it was just anecdotal or
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if there was actually data behind this
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and what led you to the initial idea
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that it was a confidence Gap as opposed
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to humility let's
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say because they were whole it wasn't
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just words they weren't saying one thing
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and doing another they genuinely
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believed they weren't good enough and
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when you start looking into all of the
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date warton's done some of it uh
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Columbia business school has done run
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numbers on men overestimate their
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abilities by some 30% women routinely
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underestimate their abilities you talk
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to all the psychologists who are working
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in Business Schools who will put men and
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women in front of scientific reasoning
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qu quizzes the women will routinely
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think they've done less well than
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they've done the men will think they've
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done better than they've done in reality
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they've done about the same so it's that
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women's perception of their ability
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excuse below their actual ability it's
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not that they're just saying I'm not
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very good but actually thinking they're
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really good they don't believe they are
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as good as they are and that's why
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that's what the confidence Gap is women
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don't believe they are as good as they
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are and you point out that it's not just
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women but that as a BBC journalist you'd
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actually experience this oh yeah I'm you
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know riddled with this and have been for
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the last 30 years of my career I my
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favorite was I spent years in America
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saying that the only reason I've been
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successful in America is cu I speak the
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way I do I it can't possibly be my
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talents right or my ability or my hard
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work and that is preposterous it had to
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be some external factor and in my case
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it was the fact that I speak with a
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British accent which makes people think
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I'm smarter than I am and I actually
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believed this Adam I mean for years I
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believed this CLA will tell you my
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co-author she's been banging on about
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this one for years and we all find
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Claire's thing that that she had was
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that she only became moscow's CNN's
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Moscow correspondent because she
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happened to be in the right place and
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that is very common for women and what
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did you do when you noticed that there
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were people with British accents here
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who weren't
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successful well you that that would
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violate the theory at some level you
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always find some reason they must have
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some
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problem okay so um so you identify the
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Gap no one's ever asked me that before
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good well the the the confidence Gap um
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you know a lot of data behind it right
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um so what what do we do about it where
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does it come from and and how do we
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start to to solve the problem it led us
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to then on this rather uh tangential uh
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quest to find out what confidence is we
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thought that if we were going to try and
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grow confidence we were better off if we
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knew what we were dealing with so we
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would we interviewed dozens of
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neurologists and psychologists for the
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book and we would always start off with
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this simple question can you define
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confidence for us and inevitably we'd be
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met by a pause hm well it's
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complicated and we went into this with a
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couple of misconceptions first of all we
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thought that confidence was the same as
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self-esteem a general feeling that
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you're a valuable person I have high
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self-esteem I think I'm a valuable
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person the universe is a friendly place
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um it's an almost sort of moral
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emotional quality that is pervasive to
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who you are as a human
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being we all we were wrong confidence is
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not the same as self-esteem we also
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thought and this was wrong too that
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confidence is a Manor a mannerism it's a
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Bravado a sense of swagger it's that
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thing of dominating meetings or speaking
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loudest and longest we were wrong as
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well confidence is nothing to do with a
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manner it's to do with a belief that you
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can succeed at something so we' ask all
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these neurologists and psychologists
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what is confidence and finally it was
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Richard Petty who's a psychologist at
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Ohio State who said to us that he
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thought the best definition of
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confidence was this confidence is the
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stuff that turns thoughts into action
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which is beautifully simple and the
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great thing about that idea is that not
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only does it turn thoughts into action I
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want to introduce myself to that
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interesting looking person at a party
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but I feel nervous about doing so
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confidence gets you across the room to
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shake somebody's hand and introduce
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yourself when you do it when you take
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the action you grow your confidence so
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it's a wonderfully virtuous circle it's
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about confidence is about action even
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when you take the action ineffectively
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though so you make the introduction it's
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a complete disaster what happens then
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yes even if you fail even if you meet a
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you have to meet hurdles when you try
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something new it's inevitable right
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you're always going to meet hurdles you
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introduce yourself to that person they
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brush you
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off think to yourself what's the worst
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that's happened did the sky fall on your
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head did the earth open up and swallow
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you whole because that person brushed
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you off no you're still standing you're
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still there and in a sense even if you
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fail you've learned that you can take a
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risk try something hard even if you fail
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you're still there now if you keep doing
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that eventually you'll succeed if you
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introduce yourself to the next person
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the chances are pretty slim that they're
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going to brush you off as well you've
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learned that you can do something and
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that your world doesn't fall apart
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because you try something that's outside
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your comfort zone I read the news every
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night to millions of people around the
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world it doesn't test my
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confidence working at Wharton business
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school would terrify me I'm absolutely
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convinced I'd be useless at doing what
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you do the only way I would ever find
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out would be to try that's how you build
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confidence you take something that is
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challenging to you that seems difficult
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that is new and hard and outside your
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comfort zone a small thing or a big
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thing and you keep going and overcome
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hurdles and you succeed to some degree
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and that's how you build confidence what
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I like about this a lot is it's an
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interesting Counterpoint to the
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self-esteem movement right which which
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we all know from mountains of evidence
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did almost no good and a lot of harm um
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and this is different right this isn't
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about looking in the mirror and saying
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I'm really great it's actually about
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increasing your ability as you said
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convert thoughts into action so do you
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have any other favorite strategies for
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boosting confidence then okay so here's
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another reason that there's a confidence
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Gap one of the reasons that there's a
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confidence gap between men and women
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women find action often harder than men
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because we are more risk averse because
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we the fear of failure is enormous for
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us seems to be bigger than it is for men
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the other thing that women do is we
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think a lot we run around inside our own
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heads I sent Adam that email he didn't
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get back to me after half an hour maybe
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he's mad at me I did maybe the Hall of
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Warton is mad at me maybe everyone at
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Penn is mad at me because I didn't get
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back to them that's the way women work
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we extrap we take one small thing a a
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small slight a small criticism a small
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thing we've done wrong and it holds us
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back from acting and trying hard things
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because we're running around in our own
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heads and one of the things we think
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about in The Confidence Code is you have
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to think less you actually have to draw
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a line under those thoughts women dwell
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on the things they've done wrong it's
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what happens in review
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processes uh it's what happens in
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negotiations with bosses and what
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happens when we're there's one piece of
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work we didn't manage to hand in on time
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that day even though we've done five
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other good pieces of work we'll remember
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the one piece of work we didn't do so
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well we need to find a way to draw a red
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line under that it's interesting though
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because everything you say to me sounds
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like a list of desirable attributes and
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for everybody yeah and so is isn't isn't
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a possible solution here just to get men
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down to the level of reasonable
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confidence you know we're asked about
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that and and and some and counter point
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is we're asked well aren't we trying
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aren't we at risk RIS of pushing women
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into overconfidence I don't think we're
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at any risk of pushing women into
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overconfidence I see no evidence that
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we're going to suddenly become um you
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know Leeman Brothers Redux all of us I
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just don't think that's going to
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happen
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ideally everyone needs a little bit of
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overconfidence and it's interesting that
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psychologists disagree about most things
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but the one thing they actually do agree
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about is that a little bit of
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overconfidence is better than a little
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bit of underconfidence men probably have
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too much and it might be better for all
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of us if some of it came down
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particularly if you're thinking of a
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cultural environment in the office space
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right if you're thinking of meeting
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environments or uh employee employer
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relations that is to some extent a
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mannerism but I think the priority is to
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get women over this hump of
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underconfidence because that's what's
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stopping them from part of what's
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stopping them from taking action and
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getting to the next level mhm so you've
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talked a little bit about stretching
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outside of comfort zones um if you were
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going to create sort of your wish list
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of a couple of of steps that women and
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also men lacking confidence ought to
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take what else would go on that list be
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prepared to fail get over the fear of
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failure that the sort of techie Buzz
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phrase fail fast is a great one for
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women women hold themselves to a very
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high standard we know this women are 25%
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more prone to perfectionism than men are
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we're perfectionists at work we're we're
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perfectionists as wives we're
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perfectionists as mothers we're
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perfectionists in the yoga studio You
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Name It We Want to Be Perfect at it if
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you're going to try and be perfect
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you're never going to get there it's an
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impossible standard right no one is ever
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going to be
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perfect but this pursuit of perfection
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is something that holds us back from
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taking risks because it makes us very
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scared of failing and I think one one of
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the first things that people who are
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underc confident need to do is give up
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trying to be perfect it'll be the single
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biggest thing that they can do to help
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them take risks and be prepared to fail
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in closing is there a point that you
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feel has been misunderstood or
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oversimplified that you want to set the
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record straight on okay yes one is the
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idea some people have said to us well
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aren't we just trying to make women like
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men and we wrestled with this when we
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were writing the book basically do you
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have to be a jerk to be confident
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because I think a lot of women look
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around at them and they see a a very
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male model of confidence in the
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professional space that frankly is
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unappealing and in accessible to us
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because it's downright foreign and it
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was Christine lagard uh the head of the
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IMF who was who was really helpful to us
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in explaining this she said it essential
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for women to be
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authentic don't give up the very
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qualities that make you valuable an
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ability to listen ability to build
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consensus a high EQ that's good at
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reading a room warmth warmth is an
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amazing quality to have it's a very
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powerful quality don't give up all of
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that in the pursuit of a mannerism
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bravado and Swagger which doesn't really
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suit you and when you try it doesn't
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work for you anyway so you want to be
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confident in that you want your voice to
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be heard you don't want to apologize you
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don't as Cheryl Samberg says want to
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lean back but you want to do it in a way
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that is authentic to who you are as a
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woman and that's critical I think for
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people we're not asking people to become
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somebody different we just asking them
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to bring their perception of their
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abilities in line with their abilities
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and when you're there you're in The
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Sweet Spot okay thank you caddy thank
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you
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[Music]
