00:00:00
I need to warn you. What was your
00:00:02
relationship with um drugs and alcohol
00:00:03
like? Do you ever dabble?
00:00:07
You know, people were saying pretty
00:00:08
horrible things. Are people ever rude to
00:00:10
your face? Well, I wasn't always a good
00:00:12
partner. Thanks for admitting that.
00:00:16
What do you think of Donald Trump?
00:00:20
Oh, I introduced the world to Tony, so
00:00:23
that triggered a whole lot of uh rumors.
00:00:25
Uh Tony is a very special woman, just to
00:00:28
be clear.
00:00:29
I was sitting in a cafe in Patony. A
00:00:31
woman walked past and just slipped a
00:00:33
little note and then I picked it up.
00:00:34
It's not nice. My physical health's not
00:00:38
great. The decision that we took is not
00:00:40
one that we would change now. Did we
00:00:42
keep the measures up for too long? Oh, I
00:00:46
think farmers hate you, don't they? Um,
00:01:00
Chris Hipkins, welcome to my podcast.
00:01:02
Thank you. It's good to be here. Yeah.
00:01:04
Yeah, mate. I'm really excited to um to
00:01:07
to uh have you here. I need to warn you,
00:01:09
this is more like about you as a person
00:01:11
rather than uh policy. So, if you're
00:01:14
expecting any tough questions, you've
00:01:15
come to the wrong place. Oh, very good.
00:01:17
No problems. No problems. Um, first of
00:01:19
all, how are you today? I'm good. I'm
00:01:21
good. Yeah. Know I've had a bit busy
00:01:22
couple of days in Oakuckland and Dened
00:01:24
and before that it's parliamentary
00:01:26
recess week this week. So parliament not
00:01:28
sitting means we get all over the
00:01:29
country and get to do interesting things
00:01:31
and um I actually find that that's quite
00:01:34
uplifting stuff. So down in Deneden I
00:01:36
was visiting some really innovative
00:01:37
businesses. So one of them was animation
00:01:39
research. Ian Taylor, you know, makes
00:01:41
his name gets his name out there a bit.
00:01:43
But the just seeing the stuff that
00:01:45
they're doing around animation and the
00:01:49
use of technology, the use of AI, it's
00:01:51
hard not to feel kind of inspired when
00:01:53
you get to spend time around people who
00:01:54
are doing that kind of stuff. And that's
00:01:56
what's great. It was one of the great
00:01:57
things about the job that I get to do is
00:01:59
you get to go out and you just get to
00:02:00
meet these fascinating people and gives
00:02:02
you a bit of an energy lift when you do
00:02:04
that. So this week's been good. Yeah,
00:02:06
it's it's cool that, isn't it? I had um
00:02:08
Sir Peter Beak on the podcast earlier
00:02:09
this year from Rocket Lab and there's a
00:02:11
kid from Invagle that had this this
00:02:13
outlandish dream and has made it come
00:02:15
true. Yeah. And actually we were talking
00:02:16
about him the other day, you know, went
00:02:17
off to NASA, found that NASA was too
00:02:19
constraining, so I thought I I'll go
00:02:20
home to New Zealand, I'll do it myself.
00:02:22
And now we have Rocket Lab. I mean, how
00:02:24
amazing is that, you know, um and I I've
00:02:27
been to his uh been to Rocket Lab here
00:02:29
in in Oakland. and you know just being
00:02:31
able to see what people are doing, the
00:02:33
passion, the energy they have for it,
00:02:34
but also the potential for the country,
00:02:36
you know, the future potential for the
00:02:38
country because um you know, I'm I'm a
00:02:40
big fan of our farmers. I've spent quite
00:02:42
a bit of time over the last year
00:02:43
visiting farmers as well and they're
00:02:44
also really passionate about what
00:02:46
they're doing, you know, really down to
00:02:47
earth and I I really love being able to
00:02:49
do that as well. But there's going to be
00:02:50
a limit to the amount that we can make
00:02:52
out of farming. There's always going to
00:02:54
be a natural limit to that. you know,
00:02:55
you can only farm so many cows, only
00:02:57
grow so many trees, only, you know,
00:02:58
produce so much stuff. And so the the
00:03:01
tech economy, the innovative economy,
00:03:03
um, is going to actually create a whole
00:03:05
lot of jobs for us in the future. And
00:03:07
so, you know, we we going to have to do
00:03:08
a lot more of that if we want to be
00:03:10
richer as a country. And it doesn't mean
00:03:11
that we're farming is not still going to
00:03:13
be critical to us. It is, but it means
00:03:14
that we've got to have other stuff as
00:03:16
well. And so, you know, people like
00:03:17
Peter, Becky, and Taylor, these are the
00:03:19
people who are at the forefront of
00:03:20
making all that happen for New Zealand.
00:03:22
And it's pretty exciting. Yeah. the the
00:03:24
farmers hate you, don't they? Well,
00:03:26
that's actually one of the reasons why I
00:03:27
went to visit a whole lot of farms
00:03:29
because um you know, I actually kind of
00:03:31
feel a bit of an affinity with the
00:03:33
farmers in the sense that, you know, I I
00:03:35
would be quite happy being out on a farm
00:03:36
all day every day. You know, I um I
00:03:39
actually really respect what they do and
00:03:41
I can see why they're passionate about
00:03:42
it and I can see why they love it. And
00:03:45
uh this impression, oh, you know, Labour
00:03:46
Party hates farmers. I thought, well,
00:03:48
let's just go and talk to each other and
00:03:50
see whether that's where we land up. And
00:03:52
the reality is every farmers and you
00:03:54
know I've been to visit farmers who are
00:03:56
definitely not labor people. Um and by
00:03:59
the end of it we're getting on really
00:04:01
well because you know we actually do
00:04:04
have some shared commitments. I think
00:04:06
that I think sometimes the farming lobby
00:04:09
um gives the wrong impression about New
00:04:10
Zealand farmers. You know they give the
00:04:12
impression some would give the
00:04:13
impression that New Zealand farmers just
00:04:14
don't care about the environment, don't
00:04:16
want to protect the waterways, aren't
00:04:17
interested in animal welfare. And yet
00:04:19
every single farm that I've visited,
00:04:21
I've had entirely the opposite
00:04:23
impression of them. They're going out of
00:04:24
their way to protect the environment, to
00:04:26
think about the quality of the
00:04:28
waterways, to to care for the welfare of
00:04:30
their animals and so on. But I don't
00:04:32
think that's the impression a lot of
00:04:33
Kiwis get of our farmers. And it's a
00:04:36
real shame because I think some of the
00:04:38
sustainability practices in New Zealand
00:04:40
farms are actually cutting edge. And um
00:04:44
you know I I think maybe one of our
00:04:45
failings as a government is we didn't
00:04:47
publicly give farmers enough credit for
00:04:49
that. You know what we were saying to
00:04:51
them is we want to make sure everyone's
00:04:52
doing this. You know we want the whole
00:04:54
farming sector to be at the cutting edge
00:04:55
of sustainability and animal welfare and
00:04:58
all of that. Um and you know actually
00:05:01
most of the farmers I've spoken to want
00:05:02
want us to be that as well. So I think
00:05:04
there was a bit of talking past each
00:05:06
other that was happening there and which
00:05:08
I which you know I'm I'm aiming to fix.
00:05:12
Are people ever rude to your face? Like
00:05:13
you go into an a hostile environment
00:05:15
like that like a a farm with an angry
00:05:17
farmer like or or even at an airport
00:05:19
terminal or wherever it happens to be.
00:05:21
There's there's a lot of um like I
00:05:23
mentioned you were coming in on
00:05:24
Instagram and there were lots of
00:05:25
questions but there's also just a lot of
00:05:26
like mean comments things that I'd never
00:05:28
bring up. Yeah. So so ex that does exist
00:05:31
at several levels. I mean, the the worst
00:05:33
of it, the stuff that people people will
00:05:35
write on social media. They'll never say
00:05:37
that to your face. Others do, though,
00:05:40
and uh it's still a very small minority.
00:05:43
There's a human psychology to being a
00:05:44
politician that takes you a while to get
00:05:46
your head around. You know, when I
00:05:47
started as a politician, if you go out
00:05:48
and about somewhere and you meet 10
00:05:50
people, nine of them are nice to you and
00:05:52
one's horrible to you, it's the one
00:05:53
who's horrible to you that you're still
00:05:55
thinking about at the end of the day,
00:05:56
not the nine who were nice to you. And
00:05:58
so you have to kind of adjust your own
00:06:01
sort of the way you think about things
00:06:03
to reflect that. So you've got to not
00:06:05
just focus on the one, but focus on the
00:06:07
nine who are actually being really nice.
00:06:08
And I think if you can do that, you you
00:06:10
can preserve your own mental health. I
00:06:12
think the people who because it's a
00:06:13
natural human reaction. If someone's
00:06:15
horrible to you, you spend time dwelling
00:06:16
on it. And I think if if you're in
00:06:19
politics and you allow yourself to be
00:06:21
consumed by that, politics is going to
00:06:23
be pretty miserable place for you. You
00:06:25
know, once you realize that there's a
00:06:26
chunk of people who are never going to
00:06:27
agree with you, they're never going to
00:06:29
like you and it's nothing to do with who
00:06:31
you are as a person. It's a political
00:06:33
judgment that they're making. Once
00:06:35
you've kind of come to terms with that
00:06:36
and you make yourself comfortable with
00:06:37
it, politics is politics is easier. You
00:06:40
know, I I realized out, you know, door
00:06:42
knockocking was really interesting. It's
00:06:43
one of the first things you have to do
00:06:44
when you're a candidate. You got to go
00:06:45
out and knock randomly knock on people's
00:06:47
doors and introduce yourself to people
00:06:48
you've never met before. And I realized
00:06:51
that there are people who open the door
00:06:53
and they're like, "You're fantastic."
00:06:54
And I'm like, "We haven't said anything
00:06:55
yet. You've never met me." And it's just
00:06:57
because they've seen a Labour Party
00:06:58
rosette on me and and they're a Labour
00:06:59
people and so therefore they think I'm
00:07:01
fantastic even before they've even met
00:07:02
me. But the reverse also is true. You
00:07:05
I'll knock on people's door and they'll
00:07:06
be like, "I think you're, you know," and
00:07:08
they'll say some pretty democ.
00:07:11
Yeah. Well, I mean 2008 was my first
00:07:13
election campaign and that was the one
00:07:14
where Helen Clark had been prime
00:07:15
minister for nine years and there was a
00:07:18
degree of fatigue fatigue and also
00:07:21
misogyny there. There was uh you know
00:07:23
people were saying pretty horrible
00:07:24
things about Helen Clark by that point
00:07:26
and you'd get that you know on the
00:07:28
doorstep and you realize that actually
00:07:30
it's not me. I haven't said anything
00:07:31
yet. This is not a personal reflection
00:07:33
on who I am. This is just politics. This
00:07:35
is just how people feel about Labor or
00:07:37
feel about how things are happening. And
00:07:40
yeah, once you can kind of
00:07:41
compartmentalize that, it's not so bad.
00:07:44
But it does, that's having said that,
00:07:45
it's not nice either. But there are
00:07:47
little things that happen which kind of
00:07:48
really give you a boost. I was sitting
00:07:50
in a cafe in Paton a couple of weeks
00:07:52
ago. Um, and a woman walked past and
00:07:55
just slipped a little note which I
00:07:56
didn't even really kind of notice at the
00:07:58
time. Um, and then I picked it up and as
00:08:00
as we were leaving and it it was said
00:08:02
something really nice about what a great
00:08:03
job she thought I was doing and keep it
00:08:04
up and all that kind of stuff. And that
00:08:07
sort of stuff happens and it just gives
00:08:08
you a real boost, you know? You sort of
00:08:09
think, "Oh, that's that there are people
00:08:11
out there who who like what we're doing
00:08:13
and that's great." I just can't imagine
00:08:15
someone being rude to your face. Yeah,
00:08:18
it it I know it does happen. I mean, I
00:08:20
I'm not naturally like that, you know.
00:08:22
If I disagree with someone, I'll
00:08:23
generally try and find a nice way to say
00:08:25
it. Um but uh but there are people who
00:08:28
are who are not that way inclined, you
00:08:29
know, and and I think social media's
00:08:31
emboldened a bit of that, too. you know,
00:08:33
this online world where people exist in
00:08:35
these echo chambers where they think
00:08:37
everyone agrees with me when maybe 2% of
00:08:40
the population might agree with them,
00:08:41
but then they go out in public and that
00:08:43
that emboldens them to be horrible to
00:08:45
people who they think are the minority,
00:08:47
who they think are wrong. And you know,
00:08:51
perhaps the best example um it was
00:08:53
vaccination. you know, you you get that
00:08:56
really prompted some really nasty,
00:08:58
horrible online, you know, stuff um
00:09:02
culminating in that protest that we saw
00:09:03
out the front steps of parliament. And
00:09:05
the thing that really made me sad about
00:09:07
that was I knew some of the people out
00:09:09
there, you know, I recognized some of
00:09:11
their faces and not all of them were on
00:09:13
at that end of the spe, you know, of the
00:09:14
extreme. Some of them were moderate nice
00:09:18
people who uh kind of got caught up in
00:09:21
something or in some cases there were
00:09:24
actually people out there with I thought
00:09:26
altruistic motivations. So they weren't
00:09:27
necessarily antivaccine. They just
00:09:29
didn't believe the government should do
00:09:31
things that kind of um uh had an element
00:09:35
of um uh mandate about them and so they
00:09:39
were there on principle. Now I actually
00:09:41
respected that even though I disagreed
00:09:42
with them. I did respect that. But then
00:09:44
they got sort of swept up in something
00:09:47
that ended up becoming a violent protest
00:09:49
where they were throwing bricks at the
00:09:50
police and I don't think that's who
00:09:52
those people many of those people were.
00:09:54
But it just sort of shows how these
00:09:56
movements can can sort of morph and take
00:09:58
on a life of their own. Yeah, that was a
00:10:00
crazy time, eh? But it felt like it got
00:10:02
to the uh got to got to a stage where
00:10:04
anyone that had a
00:10:06
differing differing view about the
00:10:08
vaccine or whatever was was sort of
00:10:10
lumped into um you know, conspiracy
00:10:12
theorists or tinfoil hatwearers. I've
00:10:15
had some people on the podcast like
00:10:16
Gilded Kirkpatrick, um Barbara Kendall,
00:10:20
um I haven't had Russell Curts on, but
00:10:21
I'd like to have him on. They were
00:10:22
involved with it and they're like sort
00:10:23
of sensible people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
00:10:25
and that's the the funny thing. it it
00:10:27
did become a very polarizing issue. And
00:10:30
you know, I look at what's happened in
00:10:31
the States over the last 20 or 30 years.
00:10:33
I I like going and visiting the US. It's
00:10:35
been well, it's been about just over 20
00:10:37
years since I had my first visit there.
00:10:40
And I've watched the mood shift there.
00:10:42
So, uh, over that 20 year period, the
00:10:45
polarization of US politics has just
00:10:47
become so entrenched now where if
00:10:50
you're, you know, if you're a Democrat
00:10:51
and your neighbors are Republicans, you
00:10:52
won't talk to your neighbors. um if
00:10:54
you've got people in your family who
00:10:56
have a different view to your own, you
00:10:58
just don't talk to them anymore. And up
00:11:00
until that kind of vaccine period, New
00:11:03
Zealand sort of escaped that. We still
00:11:05
all got on with each other even if we
00:11:06
disagreed. You'd still have a
00:11:08
disagreement with someone down in the
00:11:09
pub about politics. Um and and that was
00:11:12
okay. Whereas I that was the first sort
00:11:14
of hint that I had that New Zealand is
00:11:17
also prone to that polarization because
00:11:20
the stuff around vaccine it did for you
00:11:22
know take it at an individual level take
00:11:24
the politics out of it for a moment
00:11:25
within families it became a thing you
00:11:27
know if someone was uh opposed to
00:11:30
vaccination in a family they it became a
00:11:34
real friction point within the family
00:11:35
where people would stop talking to each
00:11:36
other and you know I get asked about
00:11:39
this a lot because of what's happening
00:11:41
around the world at the moment And you
00:11:43
know, people say, "How can we avoid that
00:11:44
polarization in New Zealand?" And it the
00:11:47
answer at an individual level is
00:11:49
actually quite simple. Keep talking to
00:11:51
those people in your family who you
00:11:53
disagree with. If you've got that auntie
00:11:55
or uncle who says things that you think
00:11:56
are racist or homophobic or whatever and
00:11:59
you don't like it, keep talking to them
00:12:01
because when you stop talking to them,
00:12:03
that's when polarization starts to
00:12:05
happen. And I think if everybody
00:12:07
continues to adopt that mindset, then we
00:12:09
can avoid the worst of that kind of
00:12:11
polarization that's entrenched in
00:12:13
countries like the US. Um it's, you
00:12:16
know, they're good people. You know,
00:12:18
having a different view doesn't mean
00:12:19
that someone's not a good person. And uh
00:12:22
I get um I sometimes get a bit
00:12:25
frustrated by it, but then I see
00:12:27
examples of where people are doing that
00:12:28
really well, just talking, continuing to
00:12:30
talk. And that that that kind of gives
00:12:32
me hope. Yeah. M
00:12:35
now I wanted to um largely um avoid
00:12:38
politics today mainly because I'm I'm
00:12:39
not smart enough. I don't know I don't
00:12:42
know enough and I'm prepared to admit
00:12:43
that. Um but also I mean you're former
00:12:45
prime minister but you're also hoping to
00:12:46
be future prime minister. So I suspect
00:12:48
there's a lot of things that I mean if
00:12:50
if we had this conversation in 10 years
00:12:51
time it' be a different one now. Um like
00:12:53
if I ask you what you think of Donald
00:12:55
Trump like you you probably can't give
00:12:56
me your real unfiltered honest answer.
00:12:59
Yeah. No that's true. True. I mean
00:13:00
there's still diplomacy still has a
00:13:01
role, you know, like and um who if if
00:13:04
you are prime minister, you have to work
00:13:06
with whoever the rest of the world
00:13:07
elects as their leader and that's true.
00:13:09
You know, I think people who know my
00:13:12
values will know that they're very very
00:13:13
different to Donald Trump's. I think I
00:13:15
can say that without breaching any sort
00:13:16
of diplomatic protocols. Uh but if I
00:13:19
became prime minister again, he's he's
00:13:20
still the US president. I still have to
00:13:22
to work with him. Um I do find some of
00:13:25
his past actions um very very difficult
00:13:28
to excuse. Um and I don't and I never
00:13:31
will actually to be frank. Um because I
00:13:33
think one of the things about diplomacy
00:13:35
is you don't have to give up your own
00:13:36
values in order to be diplomatic. Um
00:13:39
it's about how you express them that
00:13:41
that you might change and and I think
00:13:44
that is something that's a bit
00:13:45
misunderstood. I think this idea that
00:13:47
when you know because we're a small
00:13:48
country when we go around the world we
00:13:50
just have to you being diplomatic um
00:13:52
maintaining kind of relationships with
00:13:54
other countries means that we have to
00:13:55
somehow give up what's important to New
00:13:57
Zealanders it doesn't you can still
00:13:59
express those things but you just do
00:14:02
them use different language it's not
00:14:03
inflammatory language it's respectful
00:14:05
language and so I mean I I went to China
00:14:08
I sat in a in the the great hall with
00:14:10
Xihinping and I made very clear New
00:14:13
Zealand's views on issues around human
00:14:15
rights for example example and uh I did
00:14:18
that really respectfully and I think
00:14:21
that's that's a big part of what
00:14:22
diplomacy should be about and actually
00:14:24
something you know maybe we should be a
00:14:25
bit more diplomatic in the way we
00:14:26
interact with each other on a daily
00:14:28
basis because you can disagree agreeably
00:14:30
you can you can express a view to people
00:14:33
which isn't their view which they're
00:14:35
going to disagree with but you can still
00:14:37
respect each other and uh you know maybe
00:14:41
we we probably need to mimic that a bit
00:14:43
more in just our day-to-day politics but
00:14:45
diplom means he has a lot to offer in
00:14:46
that regard. The the Trump Zalinsky
00:14:49
thing that we saw a couple of weeks ago
00:14:51
like you've had some, you know, some
00:14:53
meetings with um big leaders.
00:14:55
Does that happen behind closed doors and
00:14:57
we just saw that for in front of camera
00:14:59
for the first time? Is it showmanship?
00:15:00
What is it? I I look frankly I think
00:15:03
that was a made for TV moment. Um that's
00:15:05
not the way diplomacy works. Um I
00:15:07
thought President Zalinsky was treated
00:15:09
shockingly um in that meeting. Um, and
00:15:13
uh, I don't think that that in any way
00:15:17
reflects the sacrifice that the people
00:15:19
of Ukraine have made over the last
00:15:21
couple of years. Um, they've fought
00:15:23
valiantly for values that um, are very
00:15:26
important to New Zealand and used to be
00:15:28
important to the United States as well
00:15:30
and I hope that the US won't depart from
00:15:32
them for too long. But that idea of um
00:15:36
of sovereignty of you know around your
00:15:38
own country is a pretty important pillar
00:15:40
of what has up until now been uh
00:15:43
consensus around international diplomacy
00:15:46
law um and action and we don't seem to
00:15:50
be in that zone at the moment. The zone
00:15:52
we seem to be heading into is that uh
00:15:55
might is right and I strongly disagree
00:15:58
with that. Um it means small countries
00:16:00
like New Zealand um have to really
00:16:02
rethink our international our approach
00:16:04
to international relations and who what
00:16:06
we expect of our friends because um I
00:16:09
don't think that might is always right
00:16:11
and we seem to be heading in this view
00:16:13
that if you're a massive country with a
00:16:14
massive military you can do whatever you
00:16:15
like and smaller countries just have to
00:16:17
suck it up and live with it. Um and I
00:16:20
think that would be a disaster for the
00:16:22
world.
00:16:24
Well thanks for that. So who are you
00:16:26
outside of the job? But what music are
00:16:28
you into? Yeah. Movies, TV shows. You
00:16:31
wouldn't have a lot of time for a lot of
00:16:32
screen time, would you? I don't get a
00:16:34
lot of screen time. I mean,
00:16:35
occasionally, you know, a little bit of
00:16:37
Netflix at the end of the day just to to
00:16:39
wind down maybe, but um and then when I
00:16:42
do that, I tend to watch box series and
00:16:44
just sort of binge watch um or a movie
00:16:46
or whatever. Um I do really enjoy um DIY
00:16:52
at home. Um I like to be able to do
00:16:54
things that I can see a result from at
00:16:56
the end of it. So, um, going and growing
00:16:58
stuff in the garden is great because you
00:17:00
can plant something and then you can
00:17:02
sort of look after it and, you know, you
00:17:03
can watch it grow and if it's producing
00:17:06
food, which is which I enjoy doing, um,
00:17:08
there's a real satisfaction of being
00:17:10
able to grow something and then eat it.
00:17:12
Um, or then, you know, grow something
00:17:14
and then cook with it. It's it's really
00:17:16
cool. Um, so I like to do that. I like
00:17:18
to make things. Um, I've I've I've got a
00:17:22
probably a huge amount invested in my
00:17:24
garage, which is ridiculous for someone
00:17:26
who spends very little time in it. Um,
00:17:28
but it does mean, you know, I can make
00:17:29
cabinets and bookcases and stuff like
00:17:31
that. So, put new bookcases in the kids'
00:17:33
bedrooms um recently and built a new
00:17:36
cabinet to go under the TV to, you know,
00:17:38
store all of their crap out of sight.
00:17:40
Um, and you know, all of that kind of
00:17:42
stuff. And I really enjoy doing that.
00:17:43
you know, I find it really relaxing and
00:17:46
the s satisfaction you get at the end of
00:17:48
the day for and for looking at it and
00:17:49
going I made that is is you know, I get
00:17:52
a lot out of that and I like to do
00:17:54
things that I've never done before. So I
00:17:56
the cabinet that I made um last year had
00:17:59
um uh those sort of soft closed hinges
00:18:01
and um casters on, you know, drawers
00:18:04
with casters. I'd never done that before
00:18:06
and didn't get it completely right. the
00:18:08
drawers are a little bit sticky but um
00:18:10
but you know you learn from doing it and
00:18:12
it's it's good fun so I like to do that
00:18:14
um love to go for a long bike ride. I
00:18:17
find if I'm doing stuff that's
00:18:18
workrelated you know if I'm u
00:18:20
particularly on uh when I'm working at
00:18:22
home because you know one of the things
00:18:24
that I think that's changed about the
00:18:26
world in the last four or five years is
00:18:28
that we're all much more used to doing
00:18:29
things at home. And as a politician you
00:18:32
I do work at home from time to time. I
00:18:34
mean, if I've got a big speech coming
00:18:35
up, I'll stay at home because I don't
00:18:36
get distracted and I can sit there and I
00:18:38
can write my speech. But sometimes your
00:18:40
head will get a bit muddled with all of
00:18:42
that and you're kind of like, I've read
00:18:43
the speech 10 times now and I've
00:18:44
completely lost sight of, you know, what
00:18:46
I'm trying to say and go for a bike ride
00:18:48
for an hour. Then when you get back,
00:18:50
suddenly you find that your sense of
00:18:51
clarity has returned and you can really
00:18:54
do a much better job of it. So, um,
00:18:57
yeah, I love to be able to get out on my
00:18:58
bike. from Upper Hut's great, you know,
00:19:00
it's a it's a city, but literally if you
00:19:02
bike up and over the hill, you're in
00:19:04
farmland within it's a sort of a
00:19:06
20-minute bike ride to get over the hill
00:19:08
and you then you're in farmland and you
00:19:09
can just go and bike and it's it's big
00:19:12
and it's open and it's it's fresh and I
00:19:14
love to be able to do that. Um, I love
00:19:17
the beach. Um, beach is, um, you know,
00:19:21
my family's been going there ever since
00:19:23
I was about, I suppose, would have been
00:19:25
about nine. And, um, and it's a, it's a
00:19:29
pretty special place for us. So, my kids
00:19:31
love it, too. And, uh, you know, again,
00:19:34
it's a like a big long walk on the beach
00:19:36
has the same effect as a big bike ride.
00:19:37
You know, it clears your head out and
00:19:39
puts everything back in perspective. Um,
00:19:42
you know, you can your your troubles
00:19:44
seem quite small when you're on the
00:19:46
beach because everything is so big and
00:19:48
um, yeah, so that's bit about me outside
00:19:52
of work. Yeah. Um, what about music? You
00:19:53
must be a bogan.
00:19:55
Yeah, a little bit. You've got to be a
00:19:58
shead guy. Yeah. Yeah. Although, yes.
00:20:00
Yes. But then I I also kind of going
00:20:03
back to the 80s which is where my
00:20:04
musical tastes were kind of formed as
00:20:06
sort of Bonjou V Midnight Oil uh you
00:20:09
know those kind of bands from that era
00:20:11
and actually some real kind of Kiwi Anna
00:20:13
music. I still um love Crowded House
00:20:16
Split Ends Dave Dobin um and DD Smash
00:20:19
you know from back in the day stuff that
00:20:22
emerged around the time that I was sort
00:20:23
of at university. Um, Golden Horse is
00:20:26
still a a favorite on my um on my phone
00:20:29
which I like to listen to on a plane.
00:20:31
You know, that kind of it's it's a
00:20:32
pretty eclectic bunch of music really.
00:20:35
Yeah. Yeah. What were you like at
00:20:37
university? You were you did a um was it
00:20:39
a BA in criminology? Yeah, I did. So,
00:20:42
when I started university, I was kind of
00:20:43
almost a reluctant university student. I
00:20:46
left school. I didn't really like school
00:20:48
that much and I left school not really
00:20:50
sure what I wanted to do. Um my my
00:20:53
parents were really wanted me to go to
00:20:55
university so I enrolled in university.
00:20:57
Um I then spent the summer holidays I
00:20:59
got a job over the summer holidays
00:21:01
working for quality bakers stacking
00:21:03
bread in the supermarket and I actually
00:21:06
really enjoyed that. Um it was hard
00:21:08
work, you know, like it was physical
00:21:09
work, but I I you know, I was 19 or
00:21:13
whatever, 18, 19. Um so I was fit and so
00:21:15
I was, you know, it wasn't I really
00:21:17
quite enjoyed it. And um you could sort
00:21:20
of walk away from at the end of the day
00:21:21
and and that was that. And I did quite
00:21:24
enjoy that. Um and I enjoyed having the
00:21:26
money that went with that. And so when
00:21:28
time came to sort of reduce from working
00:21:30
more or less full-time as I was down to
00:21:32
part-time, I kind of was a bit reluctant
00:21:34
to do that. But I did it. And the first
00:21:36
year at university, I was kind of, I
00:21:38
don't know, wandering around sort of
00:21:39
trying to find my place. And then by the
00:21:41
end of my first year at university, I
00:21:43
had I'd kind of made some new friends.
00:21:45
Not I was one of only three kids from my
00:21:47
school that went to university. So, um,
00:21:50
you know, it wasn't like I had a friend
00:21:51
group there. So, I sort of I made some
00:21:52
new friends. And I kind of had settled
00:21:55
in by the end of my first year. And I
00:21:57
got into student politics in my second
00:21:59
year. And I kind of went from being a
00:22:01
quiet introverted kid who just sort of
00:22:03
you know kept to himself to being much
00:22:05
more active and involved and you know
00:22:09
that I guess kind of began the formation
00:22:11
of who I ended up becoming as a
00:22:13
politician. Um I still have my
00:22:15
introverted moments as the media
00:22:17
famously like to report on from time to
00:22:19
time. But do they I miss that? Yeah.
00:22:21
During the election campaign people
00:22:22
complained that I was too introverted.
00:22:23
But meaning meaning what? Well I'm an
00:22:25
introverted extrovert. you know, I get
00:22:26
out there, I love meeting people, but I
00:22:28
also have moments where I like to stop
00:22:30
and think, you know, if you've met some
00:22:31
really interesting people, it's nice
00:22:33
sometimes to just sit and think about
00:22:34
that, you know, and be like, "Oh, okay.
00:22:36
What, you know, whereas I think if
00:22:38
you're extroverted all of the time, it
00:22:40
generally means you're not listening."
00:22:41
Um, and I like to listen. And I that's
00:22:45
that's one of the the that's part of the
00:22:47
magic, I think, of being in politics is
00:22:49
you get to listen to other people. And
00:22:51
sometimes they'll say things that make
00:22:53
you actually rethink what you what you
00:22:55
actually believe. And I think when you
00:22:57
when you lose the capacity to do that in
00:22:59
politics, I I think you're actually
00:23:03
doing a great disservice to yourself and
00:23:04
to everybody else. Um my views on
00:23:07
different issues will have evolved
00:23:08
hugely in the uh what have I 16 years
00:23:11
I've been an MP. my views on things will
00:23:13
have changed enormously in that time
00:23:14
because um the world changes and you
00:23:18
learn more and the challenges in front
00:23:20
of us change and you have to be willing
00:23:22
to change and if you're not willing to
00:23:24
change I think you basically just become
00:23:25
a relic of the past. But I think there's
00:23:27
still a lot of politicians whose views
00:23:28
on the economy, whose views on, you
00:23:31
know, how we should live our lives is
00:23:32
sort of locked in the 80s and '9s. The
00:23:34
world's moved on. You know, technologies
00:23:37
moved on. The way we live has moved on.
00:23:39
You think about what AI is going to do
00:23:41
to all to us all. You know, it's um and
00:23:43
I and I say that with a degree of both
00:23:45
foroding and optimism. AI is going to be
00:23:47
amazing on some levels. You thought
00:23:50
things you can do now that you couldn't
00:23:51
do even two years ago because AI allows
00:23:54
it. It's just so exciting. But it's also
00:23:56
going to fundamentally change the way we
00:23:58
live, the way we work. Um, and we've got
00:24:01
to just be open-minded about that. Um,
00:24:04
if we if we keep sort of trying to hark
00:24:05
back to what we were doing in the 80s
00:24:07
and say, well, this was the, you know,
00:24:08
the magic blueprint for how it was
00:24:10
everyone was going to be richer and
00:24:11
better off, we we're just we're locked
00:24:14
in the past. I think that the world's
00:24:16
moving on. So, um, yeah. So, coming back
00:24:19
to that thing about being introverted,
00:24:21
extrovert, I love meeting people. I love
00:24:23
talking to them, but I also like to have
00:24:24
quiet moments where I get to sort of
00:24:26
stop and think about it. Yeah. So, you
00:24:28
and I are similar age. I think I'm a
00:24:30
couple of years old. Actually, you know,
00:24:31
you're getting older when you get pulled
00:24:32
over by the police and they're always
00:24:34
they look like a kid. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:35
Absolutely. You go to the doctor and
00:24:37
you're like, "Yeah, they stop asking you
00:24:39
for ID at the supermarket." Yeah. Now,
00:24:42
when I buy a bottle of wine, they don't
00:24:43
even look at me in the peripheral
00:24:44
vision. That's right. Yeah. You're good.
00:24:46
So, we're similar age. I'm from Palmer
00:24:48
North, which is a university town. Just
00:24:51
trying to think back in the early 90s.
00:24:52
Um I never went to pharmacy. I went
00:24:53
straight to radio. But um yeah, I was
00:24:55
definitely like a binge drinker. I think
00:24:57
um ecstasies, disco biscuits were a drug
00:25:00
of choice at the time. What was your
00:25:01
relationship with um drugs and alcohol
00:25:03
like? Do you ever dabble? I smoked a
00:25:05
little bit of weed at university. Didn't
00:25:07
do anything uh harder than that.
00:25:10
Certainly was a binge drinker. I think
00:25:12
most university students will go through
00:25:13
that. funnily enough sort of reached a
00:25:15
period when I probably by the time I got
00:25:17
into my 30s where or late 20s early 30s
00:25:20
where I just found I I didn't enjoy that
00:25:23
as much anymore. I found that waking up
00:25:25
in the morning and my body didn't absorb
00:25:27
it quite the way that it used to when I
00:25:28
was in my early 20s. And so really kind
00:25:31
of slowed down. You know that the idea
00:25:32
of a night out now for me is um you know
00:25:35
I'll go out and have a few drinks. I
00:25:36
enjoy it. I slow down a bit and it's um
00:25:40
probably if I went back to my 20s now
00:25:42
you you realize that I can't remember a
00:25:44
lot of it and I'm not sure that that's
00:25:46
that was a great thing you know what did
00:25:48
I miss out on or what did I do that I
00:25:49
now can't remember that that might have
00:25:51
been a a good memory you know um so I
00:25:54
think I think we we do need to have
00:25:57
honest conversations around alcohol you
00:25:59
know and um I've I've met a lot of
00:26:02
people who are kind of my age who've
00:26:03
given it up completely and I haven't
00:26:04
gone that far still like to have a you
00:26:06
know glass of wine on a Friday night or
00:26:08
a beer at the pub or whatever. Um but I
00:26:11
I have definitely slowed down. Yeah.
00:26:14
Yes. Same. I just find I get so much
00:26:16
more done and Yeah. Yeah. The um the few
00:26:19
hours of pleasure you get. Yeah. It gets
00:26:22
to the point where Yeah. It's just not
00:26:24
worth it. Yeah. Totally. Risk versus
00:26:26
reward. Um let's talk about some of your
00:26:28
viral moments. So, um I've got a bunch
00:26:30
of them here. First of all, this is
00:26:31
probably number one on the uh I know
00:26:33
where this is going. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:35
Actually, I've got like one, two, three,
00:26:38
four things here. Um,
00:26:42
we start with the spread your legs.
00:26:43
Yeah, I knew you were going to start
00:26:44
with that. So, this is when um you were
00:26:46
you were deputy prime minister? No,
00:26:48
Grant Robertson was deputy prime
00:26:49
minister. That's right. No, I was the
00:26:50
minister for co and and everything else
00:26:52
and you know and education and a bunch
00:26:54
of other things and uh we were doing
00:26:56
this press conference and you know we
00:26:59
you do the press conferences every day
00:27:01
at that point. We were doing them every
00:27:02
day and I think people didn't
00:27:05
If you didn't see behind the scenes, you
00:27:06
wouldn't realize how much went into
00:27:08
that. You know, for for us to do that
00:27:10
one:00 briefing, we would generally
00:27:12
start first thing in the morning.
00:27:13
There'd be meetings, there'd be online
00:27:15
Zoom sessions, you'd be uh you know, and
00:27:17
then um we'd have our final kind of Zoom
00:27:19
session at about 11:30 where they'd give
00:27:22
us the most recent up to- date. So, the
00:27:24
Zoom session would bring in people from
00:27:25
all around the country, people working
00:27:26
in the labs, people working in the MIQ,
00:27:29
people working in the hospitals. We get
00:27:31
all of that and it all kind of come down
00:27:33
at us at about 11:30 and then by about
00:27:36
quart 12 Ashley and I would sit or
00:27:38
whoever it was that was doing it. We
00:27:40
would sit down and we would kind of
00:27:42
filter through it be like okay what are
00:27:43
the main points we need to let people
00:27:45
know about? You'd put that into a script
00:27:46
that you'd read at the start. What are
00:27:48
the things we're going to get questioned
00:27:49
on? So it's hours of preparation. But
00:27:52
when you're doing it every day, you do
00:27:55
get to that point where your head kind
00:27:58
of almost goes into a different zone.
00:28:00
And sometimes things that that one was
00:28:04
almost like an outof body experience
00:28:05
where I got asked this question and I
00:28:07
was I was still thinking I think about
00:28:08
the previous question that I'd been
00:28:10
asked asked and so I gave this answer
00:28:12
and I I remember at the time thinking
00:28:14
I've said something that's making people
00:28:15
snigger a little bit and I couldn't
00:28:17
figure out what it was and then I felt
00:28:20
my phone vibrating in my pocket
00:28:23
furiously and then we kept on going and
00:28:26
we got through a few more questions and
00:28:27
then Ashley was giving a long answer
00:28:29
about something and I thought I just
00:28:30
check my phone. So, I got my phone out
00:28:31
and I was standing there at the podium.
00:28:32
I looked at my phone and it was a
00:28:34
message from a a prominent journalist um
00:28:37
who basically just said, "Stretch your
00:28:40
legs." And suddenly the penny dropped
00:28:43
and I realized what I had said. And we
00:28:46
still had like a good 10 minutes of
00:28:48
press conference to get through and I
00:28:49
sort of so I tried to sort of maintain a
00:28:51
straight face for the rest of the press
00:28:52
conference and then I made a joke about
00:28:53
it at the end. And it's just one of
00:28:56
those things where when you're focused
00:28:57
on trying to you're trying to kind of
00:28:59
give out as much information as you can,
00:29:01
but you're also trying to be accurate.
00:29:02
You're trying to make sure you don't say
00:29:03
things that that that aren't right. And
00:29:07
yeah, and then sometimes the the what
00:29:10
what seems like the inconsequential bit
00:29:12
um ends up being quite consequential.
00:29:15
And so I got back to the office and
00:29:17
everyone was just giving me heaps about
00:29:18
it for days. And I I just think, you
00:29:20
know, like in politics, I think
00:29:22
sometimes politicians are a bit too
00:29:24
reluctant to stand up and say, "I made a
00:29:26
mistake or I got that wrong or I made
00:29:29
myself look a bit silly." And I actually
00:29:32
think the public really respect you when
00:29:35
you do. And so I thought, well, look,
00:29:37
I've made this mistake. People are
00:29:39
having a lot of laughs about it. I'll
00:29:41
just go along with that. And someone,
00:29:43
like, it was literally a couple of days
00:29:44
after someone sent me the the first of
00:29:46
the coffee mugs. And I thought, well,
00:29:48
I'm just going to go with this. I took
00:29:50
the coffee mug to the press conference
00:29:51
with me and I drunk from it at the press
00:29:53
conference.
00:29:55
And again, that was just another moment
00:29:57
which everybody, I think, quite enjoyed.
00:29:59
And I think, you know, politicians are
00:30:02
human. We make mistakes, too. And we
00:30:05
should be a bit less reluctant to admit
00:30:07
that. Oh, and it was good for you
00:30:09
overall, I think. Yeah, I think so. I
00:30:11
mean, it made us look more m hopefully
00:30:13
made me look a bit more human. Um, but
00:30:15
are you are you beating yourself up at
00:30:16
the beginning? Like like are you mad at
00:30:18
yourself for the making the mistake and
00:30:20
then you realize it's actually a good
00:30:21
thing and it's brought a bit of light.
00:30:22
That wasn't No, that on that one. Um,
00:30:24
actually I I was fine with it. I mean
00:30:27
people were like, "Oh, was that
00:30:28
deliberate?" And I was kind of like,
00:30:28
"No, it definitely wasn't." Um, but
00:30:31
there were mistakes that we made during
00:30:33
the press conferences where I where I
00:30:35
would go back and beat myself up.
00:30:37
There's one that was an absolute shocker
00:30:39
where we'd made some decisions. we we're
00:30:42
often making decisions and announcing
00:30:43
them more or less straight away. So, and
00:30:46
and we'd made a decision. Um I had I was
00:30:48
lacking some of the basic kind of
00:30:50
information. I made I said some I
00:30:52
answered some questions wrong and
00:30:54
realized partway through the press
00:30:56
conference that actually I I got some
00:30:58
stuff wrong and I said to the pre people
00:31:02
in the press conference, it was being
00:31:03
live stream people were watching at
00:31:04
home. I said, "Look, we're just going to
00:31:06
stop for a minute because I actually
00:31:07
think what I've said is wrong and I'm
00:31:08
just going to check that and then we're
00:31:09
going to come back to it." and and I
00:31:11
kind of beat myself up about that for
00:31:13
days now. I mean, I could have made it
00:31:14
worse by not just saying I've made I've
00:31:16
made a mistake. And it's quite hard to
00:31:18
do that when you're live on TV. Um, but
00:31:21
I should have been better prepared, you
00:31:22
know, like I shouldn't have done that.
00:31:24
And so, you do beat yourself up about
00:31:25
those moments. I think when where it's a
00:31:27
slip of the tongue and you just kind of
00:31:28
say something that's a bit silly and and
00:31:30
and you can make fun of it, it it's not
00:31:32
so bad. But when you when you do
00:31:33
something that actually isn't genuinely
00:31:35
wrong, um, then you do tend to dwell on
00:31:38
that a bit.
00:31:40
I I've had um Dr. Bloomfield on the
00:31:41
podcast and he he talked about um the
00:31:43
the co era um and in particular the
00:31:46
nerves head experience on ZB mornings.
00:31:49
Yeah. And he said he'd get up maybe 4:00
00:31:51
or 3:00 in the morning and you know he'd
00:31:53
wake up and wouldn't be to go back to
00:31:54
sleep and then he'd be briefed early. Um
00:31:56
yeah. What was your experience with um
00:31:58
ZB mornings? Oh yeah. Well, I mean, Mike
00:32:00
Hosking particularly seemed to like to
00:32:03
pinpoint the the most uh obscure little
00:32:05
piece of information and then really
00:32:07
quiz you on why you didn't know the
00:32:08
answer to the question that he was
00:32:10
asking. And you know, that's hard
00:32:13
because there are so many different bits
00:32:15
of information that you're trying to
00:32:16
absorb in a day and you can't always
00:32:18
remember them off the top of your head.
00:32:19
So I would um I would sit there to do my
00:32:22
morning briefing with them cuz on a wind
00:32:24
on a Tuesday morning as I used to do
00:32:26
those briefings with the media it was
00:32:28
there were about five media outlets and
00:32:30
you do them all on a row bang bang bang
00:32:32
and so I would be in the theater you
00:32:34
know cuz that's often the backdrop for
00:32:35
them and they you do TV one first and or
00:32:38
Mike Hosking and then TV one and then
00:32:40
Morning Report and then TV3 and it was
00:32:43
all in a row and I would spread all my
00:32:45
notes out um when I was doing the radio
00:32:47
ones. It's harder when you're on TV cuz
00:32:48
you can't just sort of pull out a piece
00:32:50
of paper. But when you're doing the
00:32:51
radio ones, I'd have all these notes
00:32:52
spread out with so that if I got asked
00:32:54
this question, I could be, "Oh, grab
00:32:55
that piece of paper that's got the the
00:32:56
particular fact that they want on it."
00:32:58
But if you don't have it, you know, it's
00:33:01
it it gets it can get a bit hairy, but
00:33:04
you can never have all of the
00:33:05
information. One of the things about CO
00:33:08
was that things were moving so fast. We
00:33:10
regularly didn't have all of the
00:33:12
information. You know, there would be a
00:33:13
CO case detected in the community and
00:33:15
people would be like, well, who was it?
00:33:18
Where was it? How many people they were
00:33:19
in contact with? It's like, well, I
00:33:20
don't know that yet. That's what we're
00:33:21
trying to figure out. And but people
00:33:23
would immediately want to know more. And
00:33:26
unfortunately, I I guess it's part of
00:33:28
human nature there, too. In the absence
00:33:30
of concrete information, people are very
00:33:32
quick to fill the void themselves. Yes.
00:33:34
So, we had an issue with uh people who
00:33:36
traveled between Oakland and Northland.
00:33:38
Um there were there were questions about
00:33:41
um you know why they had done that and
00:33:43
what their motivations were and whether
00:33:45
there were gangs involved. Oh, the sex
00:33:46
workers, whether they were sex workers.
00:33:48
And I remember standing there saying,
00:33:50
"I've got no evidence that there are
00:33:51
gangs involved and I've got no evidence
00:33:52
that they're sex workers." Um and yet
00:33:55
now, you know, 5 years later, I still
00:33:58
get people saying, "Are you going to
00:33:59
apologize to those people you accused of
00:34:01
being sex workers?" I was like, "Well, I
00:34:03
stood there and said that we had no
00:34:05
evidence that that was the case."
00:34:06
Winston Peters on the other hand was in
00:34:08
Northland at the time and he was making
00:34:09
those claims publicly. Now, now the
00:34:11
anti-COVID people seem to think that
00:34:13
he's their hero. Um, and yet he was the
00:34:15
one making those allegations and you
00:34:19
know, but that's just the way kind of
00:34:20
people just will fill the void. And so
00:34:23
one of the hardest parts of co was just
00:34:25
encouraging people to just not fill the
00:34:27
void if there wasn't information. If you
00:34:29
didn't know the answer to something,
00:34:30
say, "Look, we don't know the answer to
00:34:32
that. We're working really hard to try
00:34:33
and find the answer to that." Um but
00:34:35
there's still a lot we don't know then
00:34:37
at that early phase of CO we didn't even
00:34:39
understand how the virus was being
00:34:40
transmitted if you remember you know the
00:34:42
early advice was that it was transmitted
00:34:44
by droplets um and so everyone was
00:34:47
wiping down all their surfaces and all
00:34:48
that kind of stuff and yet it became
00:34:50
clear after time over time that it was
00:34:53
aerosol transmission. it was in the air.
00:34:55
And so a lot of the early protection
00:34:58
stuff we were doing didn't really make
00:34:59
sense, you know, um because wiping down
00:35:02
surfaces and stuff isn't going to make
00:35:03
much difference if the virus is floating
00:35:05
around in the air. And so um but but you
00:35:08
don't know that and so uh you're trying
00:35:10
to do the best you can with the
00:35:12
information that you've got. Yeah.
00:35:13
Another one of your um big viral
00:35:16
moments. Um I think this is just after
00:35:17
maybe the day after Justindra Adun
00:35:19
announced she was resigning as prime
00:35:20
minister and you were stopped in the
00:35:22
street and was it Napier or Nelson? It
00:35:24
was Napia. Yeah. And you had um Yeah.
00:35:26
Like Canterbury clothing company sweat
00:35:28
pants on and Abberrombie and Fitch
00:35:30
hoodie and uh service station glasses
00:35:32
speed dealers they called. Dirty dogs.
00:35:34
Yeah. From the Z station down the road.
00:35:36
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is you
00:35:37
just going for a morning walk. It was.
00:35:39
Yeah. And look, I it had been a big sort
00:35:42
of 24 hours, so Justinda had announced
00:35:44
that she was going to stand down. Um
00:35:46
there was some conversation going on
00:35:47
about who should replace her. Um I think
00:35:50
at that point it was starting to look
00:35:52
like it was going to be me. You know, we
00:35:54
decided as a team that we would make a
00:35:56
consensus decision and I think that was
00:35:58
the right thing to do. You know, I don't
00:36:00
think anyone wanted to see the Labour
00:36:01
Party having a big scrap. You know, um
00:36:04
particularly given where we were at with
00:36:05
everything. You know, we were exiting
00:36:07
from the co elimination strategy. We
00:36:08
were reopening the border. There was a
00:36:10
lot going on and I think we we couldn't
00:36:13
afford to basically look like we were
00:36:14
focused on ourselves. So, we decided
00:36:15
that we were going to make a consensus
00:36:17
decision. A lot of phone calls
00:36:19
overnight, a lot of people chatting to
00:36:20
each other and everything. And it was
00:36:22
sort of heading in in my direction uh at
00:36:24
that point. And I just needed to kind of
00:36:27
clear my head a little bit. And I
00:36:28
thought, well, I'm probably going to
00:36:29
when I get to the airport, the media are
00:36:32
probably all going to be lined up at the
00:36:33
airport filming me getting onto the
00:36:34
plane and and everything. And um so I
00:36:38
thought I'll just go for a walk along
00:36:39
the waterfront. So I thought I'll just
00:36:40
slip out the back uh and and I and I man
00:36:44
I made it most of the way down the road.
00:36:46
I I bypassed all the media and then just
00:36:49
coincidentally there were some there was
00:36:51
a a TV journalist from TV3 walking back
00:36:54
to the hotel having been somewhere else
00:36:56
filming something else and next thing
00:36:58
you know cameras on and I was kind of
00:37:00
like oh okay here we go. Um, so I just
00:37:02
sort of I just sort of owned that. But
00:37:05
that I mean that was that was an amazing
00:37:07
um kind of 48 hours really. I remember
00:37:10
getting onto the plane uh in Napia, not
00:37:13
sure what was going to happen, but
00:37:15
getting a text message literally as they
00:37:16
were closing the plane door um basically
00:37:19
to say that I was going to be the only
00:37:21
nominee. And then they closed the plane
00:37:24
door and told us we had to turn our
00:37:25
phones off. I was like, "Oh, you've got
00:37:27
to be kidding." you know, like and so
00:37:29
for the it was the longest flight ever
00:37:31
from Napia to Wellington. I was just
00:37:33
sort of staring out the window uh
00:37:34
contemplating what was about to happen
00:37:36
and uh you know it turned out to be
00:37:39
quite the roller coaster from there. So
00:37:41
did you did you have a heads up about
00:37:42
that? Like did Justinda did you have any
00:37:44
inkling that that was about to happen?
00:37:45
We'd had a chat before Christmas um and
00:37:48
it was after parliament had finished for
00:37:49
the year. We we uh there was just a few
00:37:52
of us. We got together and she indicated
00:37:54
at that point that she was going to
00:37:55
think about it over Christmas. Uh, so
00:37:57
she hadn't made a decision, but she was
00:37:59
going to be thinking about it over
00:38:00
Christmas. And um, and uh, my my good
00:38:04
friend Grant was in the same
00:38:06
conversation and he said that he was
00:38:07
also going to be thinking about it over
00:38:08
Christmas. And I thought, well, that
00:38:10
that was a bit of a surprise to me
00:38:12
because I'd always assumed that if
00:38:13
Justinda at any point stood down that he
00:38:15
would want to do it. Uh, and then he
00:38:17
rang me mid January and said, you know,
00:38:21
I've thought about it. I'm not going to
00:38:22
do it if Justinda stands down. Um and
00:38:24
then of course just into confirmed it at
00:38:26
the caucus that she had decided that she
00:38:28
was going to stand down. So um I'd had a
00:38:30
bit of I'd had a summer thinking about
00:38:32
it. You know, if she does stand down,
00:38:34
what will I do? Um but yeah, it was
00:38:36
still it's still a pretty momentous
00:38:38
thing. Um and not something I'd ever
00:38:40
really anticipated. Um I you had things
00:38:44
that I wanted to achieve in politics. I
00:38:46
hadn't necessarily ever thought that I'd
00:38:48
want to be prime minister. I mean I
00:38:50
think all politicians think about it.
00:38:51
You know, I think any MP who who says,
00:38:54
"I've never thought about being prime
00:38:55
minister," clearly is not telling you
00:38:56
the truth. At least at the beginning of
00:38:57
your career, everyone that gets into
00:38:58
parliament, everyone thinks about it.
00:39:01
Whether they aspire to it or not, they
00:39:02
think, could I do that job? Would I want
00:39:04
it? Everyone thinks about it. And I had
00:39:06
as well. And I'd kind of when Justinda
00:39:08
had taken over as leader, I'd kind of
00:39:10
decided that okay, this was probably me.
00:39:12
This was, you know, my role was to be
00:39:14
one of the team. And uh I hadn't
00:39:17
necessarily thought that I would end up
00:39:19
becoming prime minister. But then when
00:39:21
she stood down and we kind of looked
00:39:22
around, it was kind of it almost became
00:39:25
like a logical thing. I was probably
00:39:27
outside of Justindra Grant, probably the
00:39:28
next highest profile person in the
00:39:30
government, probably in the best
00:39:31
position to try and step in mid-flight,
00:39:34
so to speak. Um, and so I decided to do
00:39:37
it. I absolutely loved it. Um, I had
00:39:40
eight months at it. Um, probably only
00:39:42
about six if you take out the election
00:39:43
campaign because in the election
00:39:45
campaign, you know, you just focused on
00:39:46
getting elected.
00:39:48
So I had about six months as is
00:39:49
genuinely being prime minister and
00:39:51
absolutely loved it and I actually think
00:39:54
yeah if I get reelected at the next
00:39:56
election have a chance to be prime
00:39:58
minister again I think I'll be much
00:39:59
better at it for having had that kind of
00:40:01
six months at it because having six
00:40:03
months at it working out what we did
00:40:05
well what we did wrong uh and being able
00:40:08
to go back and go okay if I get to do it
00:40:09
again next time how would I do it
00:40:11
differently I think that actually gives
00:40:13
gives me a head start in a way that most
00:40:15
incoming prime ministers don't the
00:40:17
learning curve is steeper than you ever
00:40:19
could imagine. And I had been a senior
00:40:21
minister in government and so and had
00:40:23
worked really closely with Justinda and
00:40:25
sort of thought that I knew what I was
00:40:26
stepping into. You don't until you do
00:40:28
it. And it's it's a much steeper
00:40:30
learning curve. Everyone I've watched,
00:40:31
you know, Christopher Lux and I'm not
00:40:32
going to get political about it. Um, and
00:40:34
I'm not going to criticize him on this
00:40:36
podcast cuz I don't think that's the
00:40:37
spirit of the kind of conversation we're
00:40:39
having, but I've watched him and I've
00:40:40
watched him go through some of the
00:40:41
things that I have done as well, I went
00:40:43
through as well. And it it doesn't
00:40:45
matter what your background is, it's you
00:40:48
know, chief executive of an airline,
00:40:50
senior government minister, you can have
00:40:51
done some amazing things. Being prime
00:40:53
minister still is just a whole new
00:40:55
world. Yeah. Since you mentioned um his
00:40:58
name, it looks like he gets he gets
00:41:00
angry. E looks like he gets flustered. I
00:41:02
I think so. I I I think, you know, he
00:41:04
probably suffers from what a lot of
00:41:06
people suffer early on in their
00:41:07
political career. It hasn't been in
00:41:09
politics very long. And that I think
00:41:11
sometimes you you need to just step back
00:41:14
and take a deep breath from time to
00:41:15
time. I think you can't take all
00:41:17
criticism personally. You can't get
00:41:19
defensive. It's natural to get
00:41:21
defensive. We all have our days when
00:41:23
we're defensive. I mean, I'll go back to
00:41:24
the co period. We were talking about
00:41:26
those daily briefings. You know, there
00:41:27
will be days there where I was more
00:41:29
defensive than I should have been. Um
00:41:31
and then there are other days when
00:41:32
you're very open. Um you have to try and
00:41:34
lean towards the openness, you know, um
00:41:36
in politics. If you if you kind of get
00:41:38
defensive,
00:41:39
then it's it's just uh you're not going
00:41:43
to be able to connect with people.
00:41:46
Um yeah, I want to get more into the um
00:41:48
your time as um prime minister, but one
00:41:50
last thing on that. So John Key left the
00:41:52
same way as Justinda did. Yeah. So they
00:41:54
got elected and then with about a year
00:41:55
to go stood down. Yeah. What's what's
00:41:57
your take on that? Um I think again just
00:42:00
reflecting on it from experience, it's
00:42:02
really it's good for them. It's really
00:42:03
hard on the next person. I've never had
00:42:05
this conversation with Bill English, but
00:42:07
he would have found himself in the same
00:42:09
zone that I did, which is suddenly
00:42:10
thrust into the prime minister's job and
00:42:12
then he got a little bit longer than I
00:42:14
did and that John Key stood down. I
00:42:16
think uh it was October, November or
00:42:18
something, wasn't it? So, he at least
00:42:19
had the summer holidays to kind of
00:42:21
prepare for the election year. I I
00:42:23
became prime minister end of January. We
00:42:25
had flooding, we had cyclones, we had
00:42:27
all sorts of things go wrong and then
00:42:29
was straight into an election campaign.
00:42:31
That's really hard because you're kind
00:42:33
of learning the job at the same time as
00:42:34
dealing with a series of major issues
00:42:36
and trying to get reelected. Um and that
00:42:40
that is really hard. So, uh I think
00:42:43
maybe um you know I I I respect them for
00:42:48
just walking away from it. I do. Um but
00:42:50
it's it it it is quite hard to take over
00:42:53
in those circumstances. And that's a
00:42:54
hospital pass, isn't it? Yeah. And I
00:42:56
didn't realize how hard it was going to
00:42:57
be until I was actually in the midst of
00:42:58
doing it. Um, you you also learn you
00:43:00
learn a lot about your people as prime
00:43:02
minister. You know more about your
00:43:03
colleagues than you would know as as
00:43:04
just as one of their colleagues. You you
00:43:06
you learn a lot more about their
00:43:08
strengths and weaknesses very quickly uh
00:43:10
when you're the prime minister. And um
00:43:12
trying to do all of that at the same
00:43:14
time as you know get get your government
00:43:16
reelected and deal with the issues we
00:43:19
had to deal with. You know, the cost of
00:43:20
living stuff was really hard. Um the
00:43:22
cyclone made that worse. And then uh you
00:43:25
know the flooding in Oakland threw up a
00:43:27
whole lot of challenges that clearly we
00:43:28
still haven't grappled with as a
00:43:30
country. Um and uh and then we were
00:43:33
dealing with the tail end of the
00:43:34
pandemic as well. So I think all of that
00:43:37
made for a really bumpy 2023 for me.
00:43:41
I've got another couple of viral
00:43:42
moments. What What do you think they
00:43:43
would be? I'm just trying to think.
00:43:45
You've covered the two ones that that
00:43:47
are most familiar to me. So I'm I'm
00:43:48
going to be interested in hearing what
00:43:50
you come up with next. Okay. Okay.
00:43:51
There's the um the summer press
00:43:52
conference. Oh yeah. Right. So that was
00:43:55
that was I mean that was right at the
00:43:57
heart of one of those um periods where
00:44:00
co just never stopped sometimes. And so
00:44:03
we were doing I was doing a press
00:44:04
conference I think on Christmas Eve and
00:44:06
on Boxing Day. And I was staying up at
00:44:08
the beach with my parents because it
00:44:10
just made life easier. Um it meant that
00:44:13
uh they they my kids were still getting
00:44:15
their summer holiday and still being
00:44:16
loved and cared for while I was busy
00:44:18
doing work stuff. And I woke up uh and I
00:44:22
we had worked out on very early that
00:44:25
morning that I had to do a press
00:44:26
conference. So we'd called a press
00:44:27
conference and then I suddenly realized
00:44:29
I'm at the beach. I don't have a suit or
00:44:31
anything. And we were announcing
00:44:33
something quite significant. I can't
00:44:34
remember exactly what it was. And I
00:44:37
thought I need to look like, you know,
00:44:39
like I can't just walk out of here in,
00:44:41
you know, jandles in a t-shirt. I do
00:44:43
need to look like we're taking this
00:44:44
seriously. So, I zoomed home to
00:44:46
Upperart, grabbed a suit, zoomed back to
00:44:49
mom and dad's, had a shower, had a
00:44:50
shave, threw it all on, but it meant
00:44:52
that I was a bit late arriving at this
00:44:54
press conference and I didn't want to
00:44:56
have the media at home cuz I didn't want
00:44:58
my kids to be in it. And so, we had
00:45:00
called it in a local park and to get
00:45:02
from the mom and dad's to the local
00:45:03
park, you had to walk down through a
00:45:04
little bush track. And so, and of
00:45:06
course, I was late um because I was only
00:45:09
5 minutes late, but the live streams had
00:45:10
already started. And, you know, such a
00:45:12
Kiwi moment. my mom walked down to tell
00:45:14
the media that I was going to be late.
00:45:16
Um, and so that was the first thing that
00:45:18
the live stream was my mom saying, "Oh,
00:45:19
he's just he's just getting changed.
00:45:20
He's just put on a suit. He's going to
00:45:21
be a little bit late." Um, and then of
00:45:24
course me walking out of the bush then
00:45:25
became the next thing. Um, and I I
00:45:28
remember the I think the first meme that
00:45:31
hit was literally minutes afterwards and
00:45:32
it was that one of Homer Simpson, you
00:45:34
know, walking backwards into the hedge
00:45:36
and um and then it just sort of it it
00:45:38
grew from there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it
00:45:40
was just quite funny that I suppose the
00:45:41
whole just juxosition. I mean, it was
00:45:43
the middle of summer and Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:45
You're looking so fresh coming straight
00:45:46
out of the bush. Um, the other one I've
00:45:48
got is the Spider-Man meme. Yeah. Did
00:45:50
you do that or did you have like some
00:45:51
some young buck in your team? I confess
00:45:53
I confess that was one of the the staff
00:45:55
came up with that and um you know, it is
00:45:57
it is quite good fun. You know, I think
00:46:00
again politics sometimes descends
00:46:03
towards the absurd and every now and
00:46:05
then it doesn't hurt to kind of call out
00:46:07
the absurd and uh in that case, you
00:46:10
know, it was just it was a silly
00:46:12
question and it deserved a silly answer.
00:46:13
Yeah.
00:46:15
Um Yeah. Oh, that's that's good. I I
00:46:18
suppose the other one is probably the
00:46:19
Coke Zero and sausage roll thing. Yeah.
00:46:21
It's what's what is that do you just go
00:46:24
to functions where that's on offer?
00:46:25
Well, it it certainly is now. I um it's
00:46:28
becoming your thing. Yeah. I always had
00:46:29
a a soft spot for sausage rolls and I
00:46:31
happened to say that I think reasonably
00:46:33
early on when I became prime minister
00:46:36
and um and suddenly everywhere I went
00:46:40
people was like, "Oh, we we we've got
00:46:41
your sausage roll." And it almost became
00:46:43
like a national competition to see who
00:46:44
could make the best sausage roll. And I
00:46:48
put on about 10 kilos. And but I mean
00:46:51
campaigns are brutal in that regard
00:46:53
because you're you're you're living out
00:46:55
of a suitcase. you're never stopping to
00:46:58
properly eat, you know, so you're eating
00:47:00
on the go all the time. You're eating in
00:47:01
the back of a car. You're eating while
00:47:02
you're standing up. You're eating while
00:47:04
you're running between things and it's
00:47:06
generally crap food. Um, by the way, I
00:47:09
say it's lovely food. It's very tasty,
00:47:11
but it's not the healthiest food. Um,
00:47:13
and so I I put on about 10 kilos and I
00:47:15
still haven't quite lost them. You know,
00:47:17
it's the thing you get to your mid 40s
00:47:19
and suddenly you can't just lose weight
00:47:21
anymore. You it's it's it's so much
00:47:23
harder. And is is Coke Zero like your
00:47:25
drink of choice? You love your soft
00:47:27
drinks. Yeah, I I do still drink too
00:47:28
much Coke Zero. So do I. I thought it
00:47:30
was a kids drink as well. And now here I
00:47:32
am in my 50s. I still drink way too
00:47:34
much. Yeah, I mean as a university
00:47:35
student I drunk a lot of V. And at least
00:47:37
I don't drink that anymore cuz that's
00:47:38
really not great. But but Coke Zero.
00:47:40
It's my kind of my daily I don't drink
00:47:42
coffee. I'm probably a bit of an outlier
00:47:44
like that. So that's my daily caffeine
00:47:45
hit is drinking Coke Zero. Yeah. So your
00:47:49
first um political career, so we're
00:47:51
jumping all all around the place here,
00:47:52
but that's fine. um was um working for
00:47:55
Helen Clark as an adviser straight out
00:47:57
of university. No, I actually started
00:47:59
with Trevor Mard first. So I did about
00:48:01
three years working for Trevor Malard.
00:48:03
He was my local MP and minister of
00:48:05
education and so that was my first I'd
00:48:07
gone off and worked elsewhere. I was
00:48:09
living in New Plymouth. Um I kind of
00:48:11
missed Wellington. Wellington's kind of
00:48:12
home for me and um sort of through the
00:48:16
the grapevine heard that there was this
00:48:18
job going working for Trevor who was my
00:48:20
local MP. So I went and did the
00:48:22
interview and he offered me the job and
00:48:25
so I went and worked for him as a
00:48:26
political adviser and learned a lot
00:48:28
about politics from Trevor. Trevor's one
00:48:31
of those um uh confusing people
00:48:33
sometimes where his public persona and
00:48:34
who he is as a person are often quite
00:48:36
different. So he's quite brash publicly
00:48:38
public he's quite brash. But behind the
00:48:39
scenes he's one of the most caring,
00:48:41
thoughtful uh mentor type figures you
00:48:44
could come across. Really treats his
00:48:46
staff exceptionally well. Uh will always
00:48:49
defend his staff. I remember making a
00:48:51
mistake when I was working for him once
00:48:53
and uh it was a mistake that ended up
00:48:56
having a public kind of um implications
00:48:59
for him. He never ever blamed his staff.
00:49:01
You know, if if a mistake had been made
00:49:02
in his office, it was his
00:49:04
responsibility. And I just thought that
00:49:07
that is that I really respected that
00:49:10
about him. And so I've tried to sort of
00:49:12
emulate that in the way that I do
00:49:13
politics. And it's not his public
00:49:15
persona. his public persona is, you
00:49:17
know, is someone who's really kind of
00:49:18
harsh and brash and and everything, but
00:49:20
behind the scenes, actually, he's a he's
00:49:22
a really really decent um thoughtful
00:49:25
person. Was he the sprinkler guy? Yeah,
00:49:28
turned the sprinklers on during the
00:49:29
parliamentary problem. Again, he has it
00:49:31
was kind of funny. Like all people, he
00:49:33
has his moments. Um and when I was
00:49:35
working for him, he had a few of those
00:49:36
moments and you'd be like some days I'd
00:49:38
tell him not to do something and and
00:49:40
that would be the exactly the thing that
00:49:41
he would do. But um you know, everybody
00:49:43
has their their weaknesses, I guess.
00:49:45
Yeah. Um, I just realized my my dog's
00:49:47
done a a poo on the uh the tiles. I'm
00:49:50
just going to put my cup over it. I'll
00:49:51
clean it up afterwards. How's your body
00:49:53
temperature? Yeah, good. Good as gold.
00:49:54
Yeah.
00:50:00
Yeah. So then um so yeah, Helen Clark.
00:50:03
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was your
00:50:04
experience of working with her? I was
00:50:06
only in her office reasonably briefly.
00:50:08
Um I came back so after working for
00:50:10
Trevor for about 3 years I went and did
00:50:11
my OE traveled around the world and then
00:50:14
um had run out of money as you do. Um
00:50:16
was in a job that wasn't particularly
00:50:18
well paid in the UK and thought and then
00:50:20
uh a friend of mine contacted me and
00:50:22
said someone's going on maternity leave
00:50:24
in Steve Mahari's office would you come
00:50:26
back and just cover maternity leave and
00:50:28
that happened to coincide with the Kiwi
00:50:29
summer and I thought oh I'll come home
00:50:31
for the summer and then I might go back
00:50:32
to the UK after that. And then a whole
00:50:34
lot of things all happened at the same
00:50:36
time. So one of the things that happened
00:50:38
was um Steve Mahari announced that he
00:50:40
was retiring. Um Helen Clark uh announc
00:50:44
basically there was a job going in her
00:50:45
office so I went to work for her and uh
00:50:48
Paul Swain who was one of our two local
00:50:51
MPs in the hut where I grew up announced
00:50:53
that he was retiring as well. And so a
00:50:55
whole lot of things happened at once.
00:50:57
The the minister who I was working for
00:50:58
left. I went to the prime minister's
00:51:00
office. I got selected as the candidate
00:51:03
uh out in Rumataka and you know 2007
00:51:08
that was end of 2007 was one of those
00:51:10
sort of periods where uh a whole year's
00:51:13
worth of activity seems to happen in a
00:51:14
single month for me that was one of them
00:51:16
and um yeah and then the political
00:51:19
roller coaster started and it's never
00:51:21
stopped. But what was your experience of
00:51:23
um working alongside her? Like did she
00:51:25
did you have much to do with her
00:51:26
personally or was she terrifying as a
00:51:28
young you know young guy working on her
00:51:30
teeth? I'd be fair to say Helen set her
00:51:31
expectations very high and she you
00:51:33
certainly knew if you hadn't met them.
00:51:35
Um but I I was only there for in the end
00:51:38
of about 6 months because once as we got
00:51:41
closer to the campaign it was just too
00:51:42
hard, you know. Um being in the prime
00:51:44
minister's office is a is an unrelenting
00:51:46
job if you're a staff member and I
00:51:49
wanted to be out the campaigning you you
00:51:51
know, I wanted to be out there getting
00:51:52
myself elected and it just became
00:51:54
impossible to do that. So, I ended up
00:51:56
dropping right back to part-time and
00:51:58
then eventually just taking leave and
00:51:59
and and um and quitting effectively um
00:52:03
and becoming a full-time candidate. So,
00:52:05
I was only there for probably 6 months
00:52:07
at most. Um but I found um you know,
00:52:10
Helen was great to work with, but as I
00:52:11
said, she she let you know exactly what
00:52:13
her expectations were. I I had a guy on
00:52:16
the podcast a couple of months ago
00:52:17
called Lance Budet. used to be involved
00:52:18
with the police and diplomatic
00:52:20
protection stuff for a while and he
00:52:21
looked after Helen Clark and he said
00:52:22
some days she'd just go missing and
00:52:24
they'd be panicked like where she's gone
00:52:25
and she would have snuck out to the gym
00:52:26
or something. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
00:52:28
Harder to do that these. I used to I
00:52:29
think the DPS used to get a bit freaked
00:52:31
out when um that I was going to do that.
00:52:33
So, you know, if I was at home uh and
00:52:35
the car sort of disappeared from the
00:52:36
garage cuz someone else in the house had
00:52:38
gone out that I'd get a text message
00:52:39
from them and are you still at home? You
00:52:41
know, they were worried that I'd somehow
00:52:42
just sort of slipped them. Um I never
00:52:44
did it um because I thought that would
00:52:46
be really unfair on them. But um you
00:52:48
know uh I think they do an amazing job
00:52:51
the DPS and it's a it's a tough gig.
00:52:53
Yeah. Yeah. So um so was it the 2008
00:52:56
election that you got in? Yeah. So I got
00:52:58
elected in 2008. Yeah. So 2008 same time
00:53:00
as um justinda uh this was John Keyy's
00:53:02
third term. Phil G was the leader of the
00:53:04
Labour party at the time. What what are
00:53:06
your rec recollections of that? Like
00:53:07
your first first time you walked through
00:53:09
the doors of parliament as an elected
00:53:10
MP. It's funny because I mean Justinda
00:53:12
and Grant and I have been friends before
00:53:14
we became MPs and Justinda at that point
00:53:17
was uh she'd been campaigning up in um
00:53:20
Muta Matter I think and so she came down
00:53:22
and uh the night before our maiden
00:53:24
speeches she came in uh she stayed at my
00:53:27
house that I was renting in um in Upper
00:53:30
Hut and was asking my opinion on what
00:53:33
she should wear for uh for her maiden
00:53:36
speech and she had all these different
00:53:37
dresses that she was trying on and was
00:53:39
asking my views and I was just like
00:53:40
You're really asking the wrong guy. You
00:53:42
know, I know nothing about any of this.
00:53:45
Um, and uh, you you buy your sunglasses
00:53:48
at a service. Exactly. I buy I buy
00:53:50
clothes at the warehouse. You know, I'm
00:53:51
I'm not really the guy to ask. Um, but I
00:53:55
remember the feeling of walking into
00:53:57
Parliament's debating chamber for the
00:53:58
very first time. And I remember it
00:54:00
really well because I still get the same
00:54:01
feeling now. You know, it's it's that
00:54:04
enormous sense of responsibility, but
00:54:06
that enormous sense of possibility. And
00:54:09
you know, when you think about all of
00:54:11
the debates that have been held in there
00:54:13
over the years, the huge decisions that
00:54:16
have been made by Parliament over the
00:54:18
over the the decades, it's hard not to
00:54:21
kind of feel both that weight of
00:54:22
responsibility, but also that that sense
00:54:25
of possibility.
00:54:27
Why why did you end up leaning towards
00:54:28
Labor? Like I feel like um we're quite
00:54:30
centralist here, right? You know, Labor
00:54:32
and National, it's kind of Pepsi and
00:54:34
Coke in a way. There's not too Yeah.
00:54:36
Yeah. Why Why Labor? Yeah. I mean, I
00:54:38
think the political spectrum in New
00:54:39
Zealand is is uh shorter than it is in
00:54:41
other countries, and I think that's a
00:54:42
good thing for New Zealand stability.
00:54:45
Um, but I guess if you put the if you
00:54:47
were going to put uh Labor and National
00:54:48
on the a values
00:54:50
continuum where national would lean more
00:54:53
towards individual rights and individual
00:54:55
individualism, I do tend to lean more
00:54:58
towards the collective. So, I think that
00:55:00
we're all going to be better off if
00:55:02
we're all better off. You know, I think
00:55:03
if that idea that you just pursue your
00:55:06
your own self-interest and that
00:55:07
everything will work out okay, I don't
00:55:09
think that I I think history certainly
00:55:11
last 40 years of history has shown us
00:55:12
that's not the case. Um and that
00:55:14
actually we will all be better off if we
00:55:16
are actually looking out for each other.
00:55:18
And so it's that kind of basic value
00:55:20
proposition where where I would differ
00:55:22
from national. Um I I'm more of a
00:55:24
collectivist and they'd be more
00:55:26
individualistic in the way they think
00:55:27
about things. Is it is this from your
00:55:29
upbringing or is it something at
00:55:30
Waterloo Primary School? or like does it
00:55:32
go that far back or yeah I mean I think
00:55:34
we all get our values from a lot from
00:55:35
our parents and um you know I'm very
00:55:38
grateful to the to my parents for the
00:55:40
values that they raised us with. So, uh,
00:55:42
empathy has been an really important
00:55:44
part in my life. You know, one of the
00:55:45
things that, uh, my mom would ask us all
00:55:48
the time as kids is if someone did that
00:55:50
to you, how would you feel about that?
00:55:52
And, man, it's amazing how much of
00:55:54
humanity seems to have lost the ability
00:55:56
to think about that. We do things to
00:55:58
other people and and without thinking,
00:56:00
how would I feel if that was me, you
00:56:02
know? And so, that's something that I've
00:56:03
always tried to stick with in my life.
00:56:05
Okay? You know, when I'm making
00:56:06
decisions, how would I feel if I was on
00:56:08
the other end of these decisions? And
00:56:11
that empathy I think is really important
00:56:13
and it's an underrated quality in
00:56:14
politics. I I think um there's also just
00:56:18
a basic kind of sense of fairness. My my
00:56:21
mom's dad, my uh grandfather used to to
00:56:24
talk about money and he would he had two
00:56:26
phrases which I'll remember. He died
00:56:28
when we were quite young but I still
00:56:29
remember this. He used to talk about
00:56:31
money. He say it's made round to go
00:56:32
round. Um and the second thing that he
00:56:34
would say about it is if you've got more
00:56:36
than you need, you've got someone else's
00:56:37
share. And I kind of think I I kind of
00:56:41
believe that, you know, I I think I I've
00:56:43
got no problem with people doing well,
00:56:44
you know, making a good comfortable life
00:56:46
for themselves. People people getting
00:56:48
wealthy, that's great. You know,
00:56:49
everyone should have the opportunity to
00:56:51
do that. But when you get to the point
00:56:53
where we're at now where the inequality
00:56:54
is so great that three people standing
00:56:57
on the podium next to Donald Trump when
00:56:58
he was sworn in have more wealth between
00:57:00
those three people than half of the rest
00:57:02
of the population of the United States.
00:57:05
That's just not that doesn't pass the
00:57:08
fairness test to me.
00:57:11
So where were you when you found out
00:57:14
um what year was the election where
00:57:16
Justinda became prime minister? That was
00:57:18
2017. 2017. Yeah. Where were you when
00:57:20
that happened? So So there was the
00:57:21
election then there was negotiations and
00:57:23
ultimately um the coalition was formed
00:57:25
with you know Winston and Justinda and
00:57:27
Yeah. who else was it? The Greens. There
00:57:29
was the Greens. Yeah. So where were you?
00:57:31
I I'd taken the kids up to Staglands.
00:57:33
fantastic little wildlife park in Upper
00:57:34
Hut which has no cell phone coverage.
00:57:36
Um, and I done darling now. Surely there
00:57:38
is. I'd done that deliberately cuz I was
00:57:41
just like, I'm not going to sit here
00:57:43
just waiting for a message to come
00:57:44
through. I'm going to go and remove
00:57:46
myself from it. And anyway, we got back
00:57:48
down from Staglands with the kids at
00:57:50
about 5:30 and there was still no I sort
00:57:53
of fully expected as soon as we came
00:57:55
back into range, I'd get a message and
00:57:56
we'd know the outcome. And frankly, I
00:57:58
wasn't feeling optimistic. Um, were you?
00:58:01
Why not? because numbers. So a a
00:58:04
national New Zealand first government
00:58:06
was going to be kind of cleaner in terms
00:58:08
of the numbers than a Labor New Zealand
00:58:10
first green government was going to be
00:58:11
and and I just thought the weight would
00:58:13
probably lean towards the the cleaner
00:58:15
option and you know just in terms of
00:58:18
numbers and uh yeah and then I got home
00:58:22
I thought I'll watch the 6:00 news and
00:58:23
of course Winston he loves a loves a
00:58:25
moment does Winston. Um from memory I
00:58:27
think he announced it right live in the
00:58:29
middle of the 6:00 news. So, I was
00:58:30
literally sitting on a lazy boy chair at
00:58:32
home watching the news when Winston
00:58:33
Peters came on and he started to speak
00:58:36
and the things he said surprised me and
00:58:38
I I I he was a couple of minutes into
00:58:40
his speech cuz he didn't say it till
00:58:42
right at the very end. He's a couple of
00:58:43
minutes into his speech and I thought
00:58:45
he's going to go with us. And as as he
00:58:48
went on, I was like, he's definitely
00:58:50
going to go with us. And that was that.
00:58:53
Yeah. And what are you what are you
00:58:55
thinking at that time or what do you do
00:58:56
then? because you realize your life is
00:58:58
going to change significantly overnight.
00:59:00
Yeah, I mean I guess there's a sort of a
00:59:02
whole lot of friends that showed up uh
00:59:03
you know and we had a few drinks that
00:59:05
night as you might imagine but yeah that
00:59:08
suddenly that again I mentioned this a
00:59:10
lot that sense of responsibility
00:59:11
politics you know there is a huge weight
00:59:13
of responsibility you feel in politics
00:59:15
and that weight of responsibility sort
00:59:18
of started to descend quite quickly you
00:59:20
realize your life's going to change but
00:59:21
also now you're you've got a you've got
00:59:23
a huge responsibility and I did a TV
00:59:26
interview I think two days later where I
00:59:27
continued to speak as though I was in
00:59:29
opposition about all of the things that
00:59:31
we wanted to do and suddenly realize
00:59:33
that I couldn't just think out loud
00:59:34
anymore you know and this is something
00:59:36
that we do need to I think re
00:59:40
recognizing those who are in government
00:59:42
whomever they are you can't just think
00:59:44
out loud you can't shoot from the hip if
00:59:47
you're going to say something once you
00:59:48
say something it's a government
00:59:49
announcement and so if you're if you're
00:59:51
if you're deflecting a question it's not
00:59:52
because you're trying to be obstructive
00:59:54
it's it's often because you need to go
00:59:55
away and you need to get your ducks in a
00:59:57
row before you actually answer the
00:59:59
question properly and and I think that
01:00:03
really kind of struck me in those first
01:00:05
few days. Okay, now I've got to make
01:00:06
sure that everything I say properly
01:00:08
stacks up. You know, I can't just uh
01:00:10
shoot from the hip so much. What
01:00:13
portfolios did you end up with straight
01:00:14
away? So I was minister of education, uh
01:00:16
minister for state services which is the
01:00:18
the the public service, uh leader of the
01:00:21
house, so running parliament for the
01:00:22
government and uh ministerial services
01:00:25
which is sort of an administrative role
01:00:27
for the government. Basically just
01:00:28
making sure ministers all get what they
01:00:30
need, the support that they need. Yeah.
01:00:32
You sort of got a reputation as being
01:00:33
like a safe pair of hands like Mr.
01:00:35
Reliability, Mr. Fix It. Your um
01:00:38
workload must have increased like
01:00:39
exponentially like almost overnight. Oh,
01:00:41
massive. And and those jobs were huge
01:00:43
because I was the first minister of
01:00:45
education in several decades that did
01:00:47
the entirety of the portfolio. So before
01:00:49
that it had often been split, you know,
01:00:51
someone would do tertiary education,
01:00:52
someone would do early childhood
01:00:53
education, someone would do schools. I
01:00:55
did the lot. And so that was a big a big
01:00:57
portfolio in itself. Um but I I really
01:01:01
wanted to do that because I I'd spent
01:01:03
five years as the opposition education
01:01:04
spokesperson and I had a lot that I
01:01:06
wanted to do that kind of connected the
01:01:08
bits together. I think that that pathway
01:01:10
between school and whatever happens next
01:01:12
is pretty patchy in New Zealand and I
01:01:15
wanted to fix that. Um, did we fix it?
01:01:17
No, we didn't. And I think I I left the
01:01:20
education portfolio when I became prime
01:01:22
minister somewhat frustrated because it
01:01:24
felt like we were making really good
01:01:26
progress in the first two years and then
01:01:27
co came along and everything just
01:01:28
stopped. Our ability to do any kind of
01:01:31
meaningful education reform just stopped
01:01:33
and for the next three years we were
01:01:35
just focused on keeping the system
01:01:37
going. You know, I' I'd talk to school
01:01:39
principles and they'd say, "When I get
01:01:41
out of bed in the morning, I count how
01:01:42
many kids are coming to school. I count
01:01:44
how many teachers I've got available and
01:01:45
I hope that I can make that add up
01:01:47
because, you know, co was just turning
01:01:49
everything upside down and we sort of
01:01:51
spent 3 years going through that. So I
01:01:53
left the portfolio really frustrated
01:01:55
that we hadn't been able to do the stuff
01:01:56
that I wanted to do and you know I hope
01:01:59
back in government next time that we
01:02:00
will be able to come back to some of
01:02:02
those things because you
01:02:04
know we can't keep doing the same things
01:02:06
in education we've been doing for the
01:02:08
last 50 years and expect that we're
01:02:09
going to get a different outcome. The
01:02:11
world's changed reading, writing, math,
01:02:13
very important foundational skills but
01:02:15
not enough. Kids need to learn critical
01:02:18
thinking. It's all very well to say you
01:02:19
can read something on the internet, but
01:02:21
how do you know whether it's true? You
01:02:23
know, we actually need we need to teach
01:02:25
kids how to critically evaluate stuff.
01:02:27
Kids have got to learn about the skills
01:02:30
they're going to need for the world that
01:02:32
they're going to live in, not the world
01:02:33
we were living in 50 years ago. And I
01:02:36
we've got a lot of unfinished business
01:02:37
there.
01:02:39
Yeah. Well, there's that quote from
01:02:40
Einstein, like the definition of madness
01:02:41
is doing the same thing over and over
01:02:43
and expecting a different result. Um,
01:02:45
yes. So, it's around this time in the
01:02:46
conversation that um was it David Clark,
01:02:49
was he the previous co guy? Yeah. So, he
01:02:51
went for a mountain bike ride or
01:02:52
something. So, he he was dealt with
01:02:54
swiftly and you got put on the job. Um
01:02:57
Justinda must have really liked you e or
01:02:59
or trusted you. There's a there's a bit
01:03:01
of a story behind that. So I went and
01:03:02
spoke to David um as part of the you
01:03:05
know small group of ministers um who
01:03:08
sort of dealt with these things and I we
01:03:10
we had a beer in his office and I I just
01:03:12
said look David I am worried about where
01:03:14
this is all going for you um cuz he's he
01:03:17
was a friend and I really respect David
01:03:19
and he'd kind of got himself into a bit
01:03:21
of a pickle and a lot of that was unfair
01:03:22
but sometimes politics is just unfair
01:03:25
and I thought it was the the public
01:03:27
sentiment that had sort of suddenly
01:03:28
swung against him I thought was actually
01:03:30
really unfair but it had happened and
01:03:32
politics can be like that and we had a
01:03:34
discussion and his his one of his major
01:03:37
concerns was well if I step down who's
01:03:39
going to do this he had all these sort
01:03:41
of balls in there and he didn't want to
01:03:42
see things falling apart just because he
01:03:44
had suddenly departed and so over the
01:03:47
space of the next sort of 12 hours or so
01:03:49
there was a number of conversations and
01:03:51
um you know he indicated to me that he
01:03:54
thought I should do it. I went to
01:03:55
Justinda and had that conversation where
01:03:57
she sort of gave me that raised eyebrow
01:03:59
thing. Um, which it was effectively, you
01:04:01
know, my instruction. Um, and so I ended
01:04:04
up picking up the health portfolio.
01:04:07
And man,
01:04:10
just becoming Minister of Health is a
01:04:12
big thing. Becoming Minister of Health
01:04:14
right in the middle of a pandemic. Um,
01:04:17
that was something else altogether. But
01:04:19
I did I I said because you know I I did
01:04:22
have this frustration around education
01:04:23
where I felt like we we had we were on
01:04:25
our way to achieving some great things
01:04:28
but we weren't there yet and I didn't
01:04:30
want to give that up and so I said look
01:04:32
I will do health for for you until the
01:04:34
election and the election was only 4
01:04:36
months away. So I will do this until the
01:04:38
election um and then you can make
01:04:40
someone else minister of health after
01:04:41
election. It'll give you the stability.
01:04:42
It means that I can and and and the
01:04:45
education work program we had was at
01:04:47
that point where actually the ministry
01:04:48
of education in schools and stuff needed
01:04:50
some time to go away and and actually
01:04:52
just do the work that we're asking of
01:04:53
them. So I thought I can manage this for
01:04:55
4 months. Well I would go home every
01:04:57
night with you know piles of paper this
01:04:59
thick and I'd be there at 3:00 in the
01:05:01
morning thinking maybe this is maybe
01:05:02
I've bitten off more than I can chew
01:05:04
here. But we got through to the election
01:05:06
and then um justinda said to me I really
01:05:09
want you to be Minister of Health. um
01:05:11
you know we can give education to
01:05:12
someone else and I said I really don't
01:05:14
want to do that because um you know I I
01:05:17
I want to see this through and co was
01:05:21
only going to in my view at that time co
01:05:23
was you know another six months this
01:05:25
will all be over this pandemic will all
01:05:27
be over and and life will get back to
01:05:28
normal and I want to go back to doing
01:05:29
education again and so we we reached a
01:05:32
compromise little became minister of
01:05:34
health I kept the responsibility for co
01:05:36
and I kept being minister of education I
01:05:38
never imagined at that point that we'd
01:05:40
still dealing with CO 2 years later and
01:05:43
had I known that I probably would have
01:05:45
actually made some different decisions
01:05:46
about that. Um the education reforms
01:05:50
that we um wanted to do just kind of got
01:05:53
stuck and we just couldn't progress them
01:05:56
because of co and it wasn't just because
01:05:58
of lack of time on my part. I would have
01:06:00
made the time to do it. It was just that
01:06:01
you couldn't ask schools to do major
01:06:03
reform when they're when they're just
01:06:04
functioning dayto-day.
01:06:07
And so I left that portfolio very
01:06:09
frustrated, but I also just never
01:06:10
imagined that CO would have lasted for
01:06:12
two years. And we probably would have
01:06:13
made different decisions about how we
01:06:15
set up the response if we'd known it was
01:06:17
going to be nearly 3 years. Yeah,
01:06:20
hindsight's a bit of a pointless game,
01:06:21
but um with the benefit of hindsight,
01:06:24
like did did we keep the measures up for
01:06:26
too long? Oh, I think I actually think
01:06:28
we got the first bit of co really I
01:06:30
think we you know
01:06:32
the first year we were the envy of the
01:06:34
world. always lessons to learn, but that
01:06:35
first 18 months, I reckon we nailed it.
01:06:37
I really do. I'm really proud of it. But
01:06:40
the exit from elimination was the bit
01:06:41
that we didn't get right. So when we
01:06:43
when once CO started to spread in the
01:06:46
community, things moved really fast and
01:06:48
we weren't keeping up with how fast that
01:06:50
was moving. And I think it was because
01:06:53
we'd we'd got so far with our very
01:06:55
cautious approach when we'd made some
01:06:57
bold decisions in the beginning that had
01:06:58
worked and then we had been very
01:07:00
cautious
01:07:01
thereafter and that had served the
01:07:03
country incredibly well but once co
01:07:05
started to spread that cautious approach
01:07:07
just wasn't and and we were too slow to
01:07:09
adapt to that and um probably the two
01:07:13
things where I think if I could go back
01:07:15
and do them differently um one would be
01:07:18
how we treated Oakland at the end of
01:07:19
that that final lockdown I think we
01:07:22
could have um we could have still had
01:07:24
the boundary around Oakland but given
01:07:27
people more freedom within Oakland, you
01:07:28
know, so as long as people were staying
01:07:30
in Oakland, not spreading around the
01:07:31
rest of the country, more freedom there.
01:07:33
And then we probably could have released
01:07:34
that boundary around Oakland earlier. Um
01:07:37
and then the international border, I
01:07:39
think we had a plan around how we were
01:07:42
going to open the reopen the border that
01:07:43
was stepped us through what was a
01:07:45
logical sequence and we we bought that
01:07:47
forward, but we stuck roughly to the
01:07:49
plan. uh even once CO was spreading in
01:07:52
the in within the New Zealand community
01:07:53
and I think we probably should have been
01:07:55
a bit more arbitrary and and we were
01:07:58
trying to balance too many things. Um
01:08:01
it's an interesting dynamic. I've
01:08:03
reflected on this a bit when we were in
01:08:05
the height of co we were basically
01:08:07
responsible for everything and it meant
01:08:10
that we wanted everything to run
01:08:11
smoothly and we accepted responsibility
01:08:13
for everything to run smoothly. when we
01:08:15
got to the end and CO has started to
01:08:18
spread there there came a time when we
01:08:20
had to release that and be like it's not
01:08:23
our responsibility and if things don't
01:08:24
run smoothly that's not our
01:08:25
responsibility either and the
01:08:27
international border was one of those.
01:08:29
So the airlines were saying to us things
01:08:30
like we need 6 weeks because we haven't
01:08:32
got any planes and if you just reopen
01:08:34
the border we're not going to be able to
01:08:36
cope with the influx of demand. At that
01:08:38
point we probably should have said well
01:08:40
that's not actually the government's
01:08:41
problem but we didn't. We we took that
01:08:43
on and we tried to to work with the
01:08:45
airlines to sequence the border
01:08:46
reopening in a way that was going to
01:08:47
work for the airlines as well which
01:08:49
meant we got blamed for the fact that
01:08:51
people couldn't come back into the
01:08:52
country when actually in many cases it
01:08:54
was there were other constraints and we
01:08:56
were trying to make it smooth and
01:08:58
sometimes I think it was impossible to
01:09:00
make that kind of return to normal a
01:09:04
smooth journey. It was always going to
01:09:05
be a bit bumpy and a bit messy.
01:09:08
Yeah. So, the prime minister stuff. Um,
01:09:10
yeah, we'll get back to that part now. I
01:09:12
think this is the fun part of the Chris
01:09:13
Hipkin story. Your first stint at prime
01:09:15
minister. Maybe not the last. I just
01:09:17
hope not. Um, yes. So, what's the
01:09:19
process? So, there's like an internal
01:09:21
vote thing or you're the only name
01:09:22
that's put forward. Yeah. So, what
01:09:24
happened? I mean, there can be a vote.
01:09:25
So, the Labour Party's rules indicate
01:09:27
that if twothirds of the MPs agree who a
01:09:31
person to become the leader, then that's
01:09:32
the decision made. If they don't, then
01:09:34
it goes out to a wider vote of party
01:09:36
members and so on. uh in the end we got
01:09:39
to a position where it was unanimous. So
01:09:41
there I was the only candidate. So I
01:09:44
found that out um I'm just trying to
01:09:46
remember exactly what the sequence of
01:09:47
days was. I think it was a Saturday that
01:09:49
I did my press conference at parliament
01:09:50
but I was sun Saturday or Sunday but I
01:09:53
had found out coming back that that was
01:09:54
likely to happen. Nominations I think
01:09:56
closed on the Friday night. Um and then
01:09:59
I was able to do a press conference out
01:10:01
on the four quarter parliament to say
01:10:02
I'm the only nominee so it's me. And
01:10:05
then the um the Labour Party caucus, all
01:10:07
of our MPs got together. I think it was
01:10:09
on the Monday and the vote got put and
01:10:11
of course cuz there has to be a vote,
01:10:13
you know, in order to confirm that it
01:10:14
was unanim unanimous and it was it was
01:10:16
all done and dusted at that point. So
01:10:18
before you you phone the media when you
01:10:20
when you sort of first get an inkling
01:10:22
that you're going to be the prime
01:10:22
minister like who who do you call? You
01:10:25
call your parents. Are they the first
01:10:26
call? Yeah, I mean I had been talking to
01:10:28
them um sort of throughout it. Um I'd
01:10:30
been talking to a couple of my you know
01:10:32
close friends uh and you know a few
01:10:35
colleagues as well. Um so obviously I
01:10:37
was regularly talking to justinder and
01:10:38
grant through that process. Um and uh
01:10:42
yeah it was it was pretty big moment
01:10:44
really. Yeah. Yeah. What's your parents
01:10:46
reaction when it becomes official? Like
01:10:47
do they cry on the phone? They must be
01:10:49
so proud right? They they were very
01:10:50
proud but also um very nervous. I mean
01:10:52
they've they've watched me in politics
01:10:54
for what at that point 14 years they've
01:10:56
been watching me in politics and they
01:10:57
kind of knew what I was taking on. So uh
01:10:59
I think they they were both proud but
01:11:00
also apprehensive about what might
01:11:02
happen and um because the the scrutiny
01:11:06
you get as prime minister is like
01:11:08
nothing else. So I think they were a
01:11:10
little sort of worried about that and um
01:11:13
uh but uh so we know we had
01:11:16
conversations about that but I mean the
01:11:18
scrutiny is phenomenal. Like I I don't
01:11:21
again you sort of watch it but you don't
01:11:23
realize how it feels until you're
01:11:25
actually doing it. that that thing where
01:11:27
you step out of a car at an event and
01:11:29
suddenly there's a camera on you and
01:11:30
there's a camera on you pretty much
01:11:31
until you you know that until you leave
01:11:34
again, you don't have a camera on you
01:11:36
when you go to the bathroom. Um you
01:11:38
don't have a camera on you when you go
01:11:39
to bed at night, but a lot of the rest
01:11:41
of the time you're on public display all
01:11:43
of the time. Everything that you do is
01:11:45
being watched and that takes a bit of
01:11:48
getting used to. Yeah. Yeah. I can't
01:11:51
imagine. I can't And and um what does an
01:11:53
average day look like as prime minister?
01:11:55
What what time are you at the office?
01:11:56
Every average day is very different to
01:11:58
the day before. So like when
01:12:01
parliament's sitting a cabinet Monday is
01:12:03
a reasonably sort of straightforward
01:12:05
day. So um you know you've got your pre
01:12:07
meetings for with different things then
01:12:09
cabinet and then press conference and uh
01:12:12
then normally I'd spend the evening
01:12:14
doing um preparation for the morning
01:12:17
media around the next morning which
01:12:18
would start at 6:00 a.m. Um and then uh
01:12:22
then you'd be in through uh cabinet
01:12:24
committee meetings in the morning,
01:12:25
parliamentary question time, more
01:12:27
meetings through the afternoon and
01:12:29
evening. Uh similar on Wednesday, and
01:12:31
then often after parl after question
01:12:33
time on Wednesday, you'd often be on a
01:12:35
plane somewhere cuz on a um PMs don't
01:12:38
generally go to parliament on a
01:12:39
Thursday. You basic because you just
01:12:41
can't fit everything in. So th Wednesday
01:12:43
night, you'd often fly out to wherever
01:12:45
you're going, have a day um out and
01:12:47
about on Thursday and potentially
01:12:48
another day out and about on Friday.
01:12:51
um weekends you try and sort of
01:12:53
pre-position to wherever you need to be
01:12:54
for whatever the weekend functions are.
01:12:57
Um and then you know I was trying to
01:12:59
sort of
01:13:00
spend at least every second weekend with
01:13:02
my kids and uh you know that that's
01:13:06
easier said than done. Yeah.
01:13:08
Yeah. And how are you like when you've
01:13:10
got time with the kids like how are you
01:13:12
able to um be fully engaged? Is that
01:13:15
possible? It it is. Um, I mean I I've
01:13:17
I've kind of adopted an approach in
01:13:19
politics which is I try not to involve
01:13:21
my kids in anything to do with politics.
01:13:23
I want them to be anonymous. So, you
01:13:25
know, most people won't know my my the
01:13:27
names of my kids and wouldn't know them
01:13:28
if they tripped over them in the street
01:13:30
cuz I never have photos of them because
01:13:32
I just want them to be regular Kiwi kids
01:13:35
and and that's actually worked really
01:13:37
well. My kids school has been amazing.
01:13:39
They treat them the same as every other
01:13:40
kid. the other parents treat me the same
01:13:42
as every other parent and and I really
01:13:44
really appreciate that. And so I just
01:13:47
want my kids to have a normal childhood.
01:13:49
Um you know they for like a lot of kids
01:13:52
they live between two homes because you
01:13:53
know it's the way we live these days and
01:13:55
a lot of a lot of relationships don't
01:13:57
work out. Um but I I kind of keep them
01:13:59
out of the spotlight but it means that
01:14:01
when I do have time with them I try
01:14:04
really hard to have unplugged time. So,
01:14:07
I'll put my phone in the bedroom and
01:14:08
I'll be like, "Right, for the next hour,
01:14:10
this is your time." And we'll play a
01:14:12
board game or we'll do something
01:14:14
together because if you're always like
01:14:17
this when you're with the kids, they're
01:14:19
not going to get the best out of you.
01:14:20
And so, I try You can't do that all day,
01:14:22
but I will try and have unplugged time
01:14:25
with them. Yeah. Um, so your team asked
01:14:29
me to submit some sort of um, yeah, line
01:14:31
of questioning for that. I explained
01:14:32
it's just a very informal chat and
01:14:34
there's no agenda, no clickbait, no
01:14:36
nothing like that. Um, but it was made
01:14:38
very clear that you didn't want to talk
01:14:39
about, you know, your sort of family
01:14:40
dynamic and stuff. Um, which which I I
01:14:43
fully respect. I mean, especially you
01:14:44
see like your friend Justinda, the
01:14:46
treatment that she got and Clark, I I
01:14:48
think Clark is probably one of the worst
01:14:50
treated um, partners of a prime minister
01:14:53
in recent history. There was just so so
01:14:55
many malicious rumors going around.
01:14:57
Yeah. And and look, there's a there's a
01:14:59
lot of that that sits under, you know,
01:15:00
underneath it and I try to ignore it.
01:15:03
What about imposter syndrome? Are you
01:15:04
familiar with the term impost? Oh,
01:15:05
totally. When when you became prime
01:15:07
minister or even even in cabinet or
01:15:09
whatever is Oh, it absolutely happens.
01:15:11
Like I remember when I first became a
01:15:12
minister, um I moved into uh an office
01:15:16
in parliament called 6.3.
01:15:18
That was uh Steven and it was Steve
01:15:21
Mahari's old office um where I so I had
01:15:23
worked there as a staff member and I
01:15:25
remember sitting in at my ministerial
01:15:27
desk on those first few days sort of
01:15:28
fully expecting Steve to walk in and be
01:15:30
like what the hell are you doing sitting
01:15:31
at my desk? You know, like it was kind
01:15:33
of you have those moments where you kind
01:15:35
of like, oh, so I'm the one doing this
01:15:37
now. And I um I went um and caught up
01:15:41
with Grant at the end of the day and he
01:15:42
was in what was Michael Cullen's old
01:15:44
office and he had exactly the same
01:15:46
thing. you know, we were just sort of
01:15:48
sitting there waiting for someone to
01:15:49
come in and tell us to get out. Um, I
01:15:52
think everybody when they when they're
01:15:53
thrust into a really important job like
01:15:55
that probably feels that way. What were
01:15:57
the coolest things about the job? You
01:15:58
got to go to the coronation, eh? The
01:15:59
King Charles coronation. Yeah, King
01:16:01
Charles's coronation was pretty awesome.
01:16:02
Yeah.
01:16:05
Um, going to China was that was
01:16:07
phenomenal, you know. um going to the
01:16:09
great hall of the people, meeting um you
01:16:12
know, President Xiinping, uh meeting
01:16:14
King Charles. That that was that was a
01:16:16
weird experience. You know, I got off
01:16:18
the plane in um London uh at Heathrow
01:16:21
and went straight to Windsor Castle. I
01:16:23
hadn't even had time to have a shave.
01:16:25
went straight to Windsor Castle and I
01:16:26
was sitting down um meeting with Prince
01:16:29
William and I mean he was lovely and he
01:16:32
knew that I just got off the plane so I
01:16:34
think he probably gave me some latitude
01:16:35
for being a little bit jet-lagged but
01:16:38
just that that whole visit was quite
01:16:40
surreal really you know being at a an
01:16:42
event like that I was in the in the
01:16:44
coronation itself I think I was sitting
01:16:46
between um Justin Trudeau uh from Canada
01:16:49
and um and Elbow my my mate from
01:16:51
Australia and sort of thinking this is
01:16:53
just weird You know, this is a big day
01:16:56
for a boy from that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:16:59
Do you have many of those moments where
01:17:00
it's like like what the hell? How did I
01:17:02
end up here? Oh, absolutely. All the
01:17:04
time. Um so, I'm just getting a slightly
01:17:06
croaky voice. Um
01:17:09
yeah, I do. And but the thing is you
01:17:11
then realize that they're just all
01:17:12
people as well. You know, I got on
01:17:14
really well with Elbow um from over in
01:17:17
Australia and we'd find ourselves just,
01:17:20
you know, at all these big international
01:17:21
events. And I remember saying to him at
01:17:24
one point, I think we'd both arrived at
01:17:26
something, you know, in some there's
01:17:27
been this sweeping motorcade and I just
01:17:30
said, "I don't think I'll ever get used
01:17:31
to that." And he said to me, and I
01:17:33
thought this is really great. He says,
01:17:35
"Mate, the day we get used to this, we
01:17:37
should quit." And I thought, "That's
01:17:39
absolutely right. You know, the day it
01:17:41
starts to feel normal is the day that
01:17:43
you've been doing it too long." Yeah.
01:17:45
What was the one thing about being prime
01:17:46
minister that you didn't expect or like
01:17:48
the biggest surprise? Is there anything
01:17:49
that stands out? Uh, I mean, I I I don't
01:17:52
know if that you could say that they
01:17:53
were big surprises. I think you just say
01:17:55
that the scale of it was a bit more than
01:17:57
I thought. You know, that that public
01:17:59
scrutiny, the fact that everywhere you
01:18:01
went in public, someone was watching,
01:18:04
that was new. Um, and I kind of I knew
01:18:07
that my life was going to go up a notch
01:18:09
in terms of being in the public
01:18:10
limelight, but the the scale of that uh
01:18:14
was just took quite a bit of adjusting
01:18:16
to. Um the fact that even you know a
01:18:19
simple thing like going to the
01:18:20
supermarket you kind of almost had to
01:18:22
negotiate it. Um you know I had to I had
01:18:24
security out the front of the house. You
01:18:25
know I couldn't just wander out the
01:18:26
front door. I needed to let them know
01:18:28
okay we're going to supermarket half an
01:18:29
hour and they would need to prepare and
01:18:30
everything. So that takes a bit of
01:18:32
getting used to. They are the most
01:18:34
amazing people though. They bend over
01:18:35
backwards just to do to accommodate you
01:18:37
know to do whatever um I wanted to do
01:18:40
which was great. But it, you know, I
01:18:43
also like to be courteous. You know, I
01:18:47
think just getting in the car and
01:18:48
driving to the supermarket without
01:18:49
telling them that's where you're going.
01:18:50
I just I I never would like to do that
01:18:53
sort of thing. I don't think that's fair
01:18:54
on them. Then they've got a job to do. I
01:18:56
I tried to make their job easy. Yeah. If
01:18:59
you could go back to the first day of
01:19:00
the job as prime minister, what advice
01:19:02
would you give yourself as someone
01:19:04
that's been there?
01:19:05
uh it's very easy to be distracted as
01:19:08
prime minister and because just it just
01:19:12
comes at you all day every day and I
01:19:15
started with a pretty clear sense of
01:19:16
what I thought our government needed to
01:19:18
change and I think we we did all right
01:19:20
those first few months but events just
01:19:23
take over so um and that that's
01:19:25
something that I you know again I think
01:19:27
you have to get the balance right
01:19:30
between dealing with day-to-day events
01:19:33
and still sticking to your course and I
01:19:36
mean if I look at the current government
01:19:37
that's one thing Christopher Luxon is um
01:19:40
uh he's kind of got his his quarterly
01:19:42
plans and stuff but I think he's he's he
01:19:45
sticks to them too rigidly and doesn't
01:19:46
deal with the day-to-day probably I was
01:19:48
the other end I was dealing with the
01:19:49
dayto-day um and and perhaps not keeping
01:19:52
enough of a strategic overview on the
01:19:54
direction of travel so getting that
01:19:57
balance right I think one of the key
01:19:59
things to being a successful prime
01:20:00
minister yeah just the other day I saw
01:20:03
some clips of Luxon playing cricket on
01:20:05
the street in India with you Ross Taylor
01:20:07
and some others. Um and I thought is
01:20:10
that stuff annoying like you you in the
01:20:11
back of your mind you know you've got so
01:20:13
many other jobs to do and you've got to
01:20:15
do this photo opportunity. No actually I
01:20:17
give I'll give him credit for that. I
01:20:18
think that was a great thing for him to
01:20:20
do and he's not a bad bowler is he? Yeah
01:20:22
those lighter moments I think are really
01:20:24
important. Um being human when you're
01:20:26
the prime minister is really important.
01:20:28
Um, but also every now and then, you
01:20:31
know, just taking a moment to enjoy the
01:20:33
job. There's nothing wrong with that.
01:20:35
You know, it's a hard job and there's
01:20:37
some fun aspects to it. And just taking
01:20:40
a moment now and then to take a deep
01:20:41
breath and enjoy it. I probably didn't
01:20:44
do that enough. There were a few moments
01:20:46
there where um I'd find myself sitting
01:20:48
alone in my office on the ninth floor of
01:20:50
the Beehive looking out over That's got
01:20:51
a great view, by the way. Fantastic view
01:20:53
of the Wellington Harbor looking out
01:20:54
over the Wellington Harbor. But they
01:20:56
were they were very few and far between.
01:20:59
And I think having, you know, the odd
01:21:02
moment just to look out at the viewer
01:21:03
and think this is pretty cool. Yeah.
01:21:05
You've had um John Key on the podcast
01:21:07
before and he said the same sort of
01:21:08
thing. Often he'd be the last person at
01:21:10
at Parliament at the Beehive like
01:21:12
writing letters or signing cards at 2 in
01:21:14
the morning or whatever. And it makes me
01:21:15
wonder how does how does Trump have so
01:21:17
much golf time. Yeah. Yeah. I look I
01:21:19
suspect he's not reading many of the
01:21:21
briefing papers but um yeah if you're
01:21:24
doing it well it it's it is all
01:21:27
consuming you know like you one of the
01:21:30
things that happens is you know as prime
01:21:31
minister each day you get a a folder at
01:21:33
the end of every night that kind of
01:21:35
gives you advice on everything that's
01:21:36
going on within the government and if
01:21:39
you can get away with not reading it in
01:21:42
some cases. Um, but if you don't, you're
01:21:45
not really in the driver's seat anymore.
01:21:48
And if you really want to be in control
01:21:50
of what's happening in your government,
01:21:51
you have to have the discipline to read
01:21:53
that folder every night. And it's it's
01:21:56
hard going cuz sometimes it'll be, you
01:21:58
know, 12:30 by the time you get home and
01:22:00
you're sitting there thinking, there's
01:22:02
about an hour's worth of reading here
01:22:03
and I just really want to go to bed. But
01:22:05
you have you have to do it.
01:22:09
M I'm a slow reader and I struggle to
01:22:12
retain information as well. Do is is
01:22:14
that like a like a learned sort of thing
01:22:16
like you just become very very good at
01:22:18
like skimm reading something and
01:22:19
retaining a lot of information. You
01:22:21
definitely get you you get faster in
01:22:22
your reading. It ruins you for
01:22:24
recreational reading. So um you know I
01:22:27
pick up a novel and I kind of flick to
01:22:28
the back to look for the
01:22:29
recommendations. But um it's it's um
01:22:34
yeah you get used to that though. And
01:22:36
you and you also learn what you have to
01:22:38
read and what's kind of optional. So all
01:22:40
of the briefings will have information
01:22:42
that that's critical to the decision
01:22:43
you're going to make and it'll have
01:22:44
other information and you learn there's
01:22:46
a lot of repetition. So you'll learn uh
01:22:49
which bits you don't need to read. M and
01:22:51
then your your term as prime minister
01:22:53
came to an end um with on the night of
01:22:55
the 2023 election uh where you made like
01:22:57
um a really emotional speech and you
01:23:00
showed a bit of vulnerability like I
01:23:01
think it was about 9 minutes in where
01:23:02
you said finally to my family for
01:23:04
everything you've done to me and your
01:23:05
your voice started um cracking. Um are
01:23:08
you yeah are you a reasonably emotional
01:23:10
person or not? Typically largely when it
01:23:12
comes to my family I get a little
01:23:13
emotional and that was very hard you
01:23:15
know um during the time I was prime
01:23:17
minister my parents did a huge amount of
01:23:19
the raising of my kids on my behalf and
01:23:22
you can never say thank you enough for
01:23:24
that. Um and it was hard on them. The
01:23:27
campaign was very hard on them. Um so
01:23:30
yeah it was sort of an emotional moment.
01:23:33
Um, I introduced the world to uh the
01:23:36
fact that I had a new relationship with
01:23:38
Tony uh without clarifying uh anything
01:23:40
about Tony. So that triggered a whole
01:23:42
lot of uh rumors rather quickly as to as
01:23:45
to whether Tony was a man or a woman. Um
01:23:48
and uh and so people got a little
01:23:51
excited about that on Twitter. I
01:23:53
understand. That's you had to do a
01:23:54
followup explaining it was Tony with an
01:23:56
eye. That's right. Yeah. Um but that was
01:23:59
impromptu in the car on the way there
01:24:00
because um you know I I was going
01:24:04
through the sort of formal speech that
01:24:06
had written and and it just didn't feel
01:24:08
right not to thank her. So she wasn't in
01:24:10
the original draft of the speech. I
01:24:11
added that in and but it didn't feel
01:24:14
right not to say thank you. You know she
01:24:16
she'd come with me to a lot of stuff and
01:24:17
just in in many cases just been sitting
01:24:19
in the van to to remain anonymous. But
01:24:22
that's that that emotional support
01:24:23
through there. Particularly, you know,
01:24:25
the campaign got harder as it went along
01:24:26
because you know, as much as you go into
01:24:30
every day thinking we can still win, you
01:24:33
do get to the point where you know
01:24:34
you're not doing very well and that gets
01:24:37
hard and that emotional support was
01:24:38
hugely important.
01:24:41
Yeah. How Yeah. How do you have time for
01:24:43
a relationship?
01:24:45
Yeah. It was it was hard as prime
01:24:46
minister and I was very lucky that Tony
01:24:48
was very accommodating of that. Did you
01:24:51
when would you go for weeks without
01:24:53
seeing each other? I think during that
01:24:54
period around um when I was away for the
01:24:57
king's coronation and then I came home
01:24:59
came back and then I went to China and
01:25:00
then I think there was a period about 6
01:25:02
weeks where we didn't see each other you
01:25:03
know that that was just the nature of
01:25:07
what was of that. Um now that we
01:25:09
actually have a relationship that's a
01:25:11
fully declared public relationship is a
01:25:13
little bit easier because um Tony can
01:25:15
come with me to some events and stuff
01:25:16
and so that that opens up some more
01:25:18
possibilities. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of
01:25:20
that election campaign, um there was one
01:25:22
of the debates with Jessica Mai and you
01:25:25
you offered Christopher Luxon some
01:25:27
advice if he became prime minister and
01:25:28
your answer was something like um you
01:25:30
need to get better at um answering
01:25:31
questions cuz you're not very good at
01:25:32
it. Yeah. And um it triggered a memory a
01:25:34
couple of weeks ago when he was on ZB
01:25:36
with Hosking and uh Have you seen that
01:25:38
clip online? Yeah, I have. Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:40
Yeah. And I I actually
01:25:43
think one of the things I mean I'm not
01:25:45
going to give him too much advice. I
01:25:46
don't want him to get better. But um but
01:25:48
one of the things that I think sometimes
01:25:51
he just needs to say I don't know or I
01:25:54
don't I'm not in a position to answer
01:25:55
that question at the moment. People by
01:25:58
and large again will respect you for
01:26:00
saying that. I think it's when you try
01:26:01
and bluster your way through that people
01:26:03
get a bit frustrated and it's hard, you
01:26:06
know. Um I've always tried in politics
01:26:08
and and I've people have made fun of me
01:26:10
for it because they're like, "Oh, Chris
01:26:12
Hipkins doesn't know anything."
01:26:14
But I will say if I don't know something
01:26:17
and or if I get something wrong, I will
01:26:20
say I made a mistake there. I don't
01:26:22
think I make more mistakes than any
01:26:23
other politician, but I think I own them
01:26:25
a bit more and I'm more willing to admit
01:26:27
them than others. And I I think again
01:26:29
that's something that we underrate in
01:26:32
politics.
01:26:34
Yeah, it's human, isn't it? Yeah,
01:26:36
totally. Um are there any any um
01:26:38
politicians that you absolutely loathe?
01:26:40
You don't have to give names or
01:26:42
anything, but does you're all doing the
01:26:44
same job and it's all very unique. Do
01:26:45
you all is there sort of a friendly
01:26:47
respect or Well, many cases there there
01:26:49
is. Um I think the the politicians I
01:26:53
struggle with and I struggle with them
01:26:54
on both sides of the house to be fair
01:26:57
are the people for whom politics becomes
01:27:01
the game in itself. They lose sight of
01:27:04
why we're there. It basically
01:27:06
everything's about the game of politics
01:27:09
and and I don't have any time or respect
01:27:11
for that approach. There's a there's a
01:27:13
time for politics. There's a time for,
01:27:15
you know, giving each other a bit of
01:27:16
argy. There's a time for having a crack
01:27:19
at each other. But there's also a time
01:27:21
for being human.
01:27:24
Um I've had people on the other side of
01:27:26
the house and I won't I won't go through
01:27:28
all of the names. I mean, I can mention
01:27:29
a few of them. Um Nikki Kay was one of
01:27:32
them. um she's no longer with us, but we
01:27:34
would exchange messages of supportive
01:27:37
messages towards each other from time to
01:27:39
time even when we were disagreeing. So
01:27:43
if she had a really rough day and
01:27:45
sometimes I would have been the cause of
01:27:46
that, you know, as is the opposition uh
01:27:49
spokesperson to her, I'd still be able
01:27:51
to say to her at the end of the day,
01:27:53
rough day for you. Hope you're doing
01:27:54
okay. you
01:27:55
know, I think that whereas there are
01:27:58
other politicians who don't have that
01:28:00
mentality, you know, they're kind of um
01:28:02
and
01:28:04
I we're still all human. Do you think
01:28:07
that was part of you I've had Nikki Kay
01:28:08
on the podcast as well a couple of years
01:28:10
ago. Um yeah, she's fabulous woman. It
01:28:12
was devastating news. Um do you think
01:28:14
part of that uh was just sort of like
01:28:17
you were the new wave of politicians
01:28:18
coming through? So I suppose like 2008
01:28:20
there was yourself, Nikki, Justinda,
01:28:22
Simon as well perhaps, Simon Bridges.
01:28:24
Yeah. I mean, I get on really well with
01:28:25
Simon these days. Um, but then, you
01:28:26
know, these days, but there were days
01:28:28
there where you used to get under my
01:28:29
skin and really piss me off. Um, but we
01:28:32
actually get on really well now. And
01:28:34
again, it just shows you you got to
01:28:36
remember that people are human beings.
01:28:38
Todd Mueller, um, uh, I got on really
01:28:41
well with him on on select committee.
01:28:43
Um, when he stood down as leader of the
01:28:45
National Party, I kept in touch with him
01:28:46
for a period. Um, and still do
01:28:49
occasionally exchange messages with him.
01:28:52
Um, you know, I really respected him for
01:28:56
being upfront about why he quit and that
01:28:59
would have been really really hard to,
01:29:01
you know, to say that you're quitting
01:29:02
for your mental health. Um, but I I just
01:29:05
think, you know, I told him that at the
01:29:06
time. I was like, I really really
01:29:09
respect what you have just done and and
01:29:11
I hope that you people are looking at
01:29:13
looking after you and yeah, he had a lot
01:29:15
of support from his family and stuff,
01:29:16
but um yeah, he deserves a lot of credit
01:29:19
for that. That was a gutsy thing to do
01:29:21
at a time when he would have been
01:29:22
feeling very very vulnerable and um I
01:29:26
told him that. Yeah. And I think um
01:29:28
yeah, Todd Muller, for anyone that
01:29:29
doesn't remember, he was the leader of
01:29:30
the National Party for a very short
01:29:32
period of like 70 days or something.
01:29:34
Yeah. Um and then had some panic attacks
01:29:36
and anxiety. I feel like um uh your
01:29:39
senior politicians that still you still
01:29:42
are unable to show any sort of
01:29:43
vulnerability or weakness or you even
01:29:46
admit your your mental health is not
01:29:47
where it should be. Would that be a fair
01:29:49
thing to say? I think you do have to be
01:29:51
incredibly internally resilient as a
01:29:53
when you get into the sort of senior
01:29:55
levels of politics. Um, but you have to
01:29:57
work on it. You can't take it for
01:29:59
granted. So, you have to keep your your
01:30:02
mental and physical health in check. My
01:30:04
physical health is not great, but um I
01:30:06
don't know. You're doing park runs these
01:30:08
days. Exactly. You do 5ks every other
01:30:10
weekend and that's actually really
01:30:11
important for mental health. Um, so, you
01:30:14
know, I I I I work on that. Um, what you
01:30:17
read is also important. So, um, I've,
01:30:19
um, I've been reading a series of books
01:30:22
by a guy called Ryan Holidayiday, who
01:30:23
who writes the Daily Stoic Newsletter,
01:30:26
and it loves the Romans. Yeah. Loves the
01:30:28
Romans. But, but I actually just find
01:30:29
that again, it's it's it's helpful now
01:30:32
and then to remember that nothing is new
01:30:34
under the sun. You know, uh, what we're
01:30:36
going through are the same things that,
01:30:38
you know, um, Marcus Aurelius went
01:30:39
through thousands of years ago. Um it's
01:30:44
uh it it puts things in perspective.
01:30:47
Yeah. But stoicism, a lot of people
01:30:48
think of that as just like, you know,
01:30:50
putting on a stern face or wearing a
01:30:52
mask or whatever, but we're where if you
01:30:54
read Ryan's stuff, it's actually not
01:30:56
that. Yeah. And and Stoics have emotions
01:30:57
the same as everybody else. It's it's
01:30:59
learning to understand your own
01:31:00
emotions, learning to understand what
01:31:02
makes you tick. and and understanding
01:31:04
the kind of the stoic virtues which are
01:31:07
around courage. They're around
01:31:08
discipline. Um they're around, you know,
01:31:11
a good sense of justice. These things
01:31:14
are and wisdom. These things are
01:31:16
important and you do need to. So I I I
01:31:20
mean the thing I like about the way he
01:31:21
writes his books is you can read a
01:31:23
chapter before bedtime and it's
01:31:24
literally a five-minute read because the
01:31:26
chapters are all quite short and they're
01:31:27
all very they're written in a way that's
01:31:28
designed that you know you can they're
01:31:30
designed for you to read one a day. And
01:31:32
so I do and allowing yourself that five
01:31:35
minutes just to kind of gain a bit of a
01:31:38
sense of perspective at the end of every
01:31:39
day is important. I think I've got the
01:31:41
same book. It's like 365 daily
01:31:43
meditations or something something like
01:31:45
that. Um yeah, how's your mental health
01:31:46
been? Has it been been mostly good over
01:31:48
the years? Yeah, I mean I've had bad
01:31:50
moments um as you can imagine. Uh but uh
01:31:53
by and large I've I've I've managed to
01:31:55
find ways of kind of keeping that in
01:31:58
check. Um physical exercise and
01:32:01
activity. Um diet's terrible but
01:32:04
physical exercise is really important.
01:32:06
So even some nights, you know, 10:00 at
01:32:08
night, I'll finally, you know, be
01:32:10
checking it almost winding down for the
01:32:12
day and sometimes I'll get in the
01:32:13
exercise cycle for half an hour, and it
01:32:15
just helps to burn away what's left of
01:32:17
the day's frustrations. Yeah. Have you
01:32:19
ever um seen a therapist or anything? Uh
01:32:23
when when I separated, I did um
01:32:26
the I I think people shouldn't be afraid
01:32:28
to talk to to people. Um absolutely not.
01:32:31
So I have done that on occasion.
01:32:33
Um, one day I'll sit down with a
01:32:36
therapist and and talk through the whole
01:32:37
period of co 19, but uh that might take
01:32:40
a while. Um, you know, there's a lot of
01:32:42
repressed trauma there for everybody, I
01:32:44
think. Um, but yeah, no, I'd encourage
01:32:47
people to do it. I think you
01:32:49
you everyone can get something out of
01:32:51
talking to someone. Yeah, I put off
01:32:53
going for years. I think I was just um I
01:32:56
was nerv I don't know. I was nervous. I
01:32:58
didn't know where to start. And then you
01:32:59
get in there and you realize they're the
01:33:00
professional and they leave the
01:33:01
conversation. Um, but I can't I can't
01:33:03
imagine it's easy going to see a
01:33:05
therapist when you're, you know, well
01:33:06
known, like when you're the the prime
01:33:08
minister or, you know, the high up in
01:33:11
the in the in the government. The thing
01:33:13
you'll find about um about all these
01:33:15
things is you just got to pick the right
01:33:17
people. You know, do my doctors have
01:33:19
always been amazing. you know they uh
01:33:22
well they I mean I think it goes with
01:33:24
their profession you know they they're
01:33:26
very discreet but you'll find the same
01:33:28
anyone
01:33:29
counselors anyone anyone who's offering
01:33:32
a professional service to you as a
01:33:33
senior politician a high-profile public
01:33:35
figure they go out of their way to kind
01:33:38
of respect your space and I I think
01:33:41
that's something that a lot of people
01:33:43
would underestimate the value of but if
01:33:46
you pick the right people they're really
01:33:48
good. Yeah, thanks for admitting that.
01:33:50
Yeah, I mean there there shouldn't be
01:33:52
any sort of like shame or stigma around
01:33:53
it, but I think there still is in
01:33:54
certain circles. So, it's um it's big of
01:33:56
you to admit that. Yeah, absolutely. I
01:33:58
mean, I I have said to all of our MPs,
01:34:01
you know, go even if you only do it once
01:34:03
and you decide you don't need it
01:34:04
anymore, everyone should try it at least
01:34:06
once, you know, go and talk to someone.
01:34:08
Um because politics is one of those
01:34:11
those jobs where it's very easy to get
01:34:12
stuck inside your own head and no one
01:34:16
should be ashamed of reaching out and
01:34:18
getting a bit of help from time to time.
01:34:19
Everyone will go through periods where
01:34:21
they need it.
01:34:23
When was the last time you cried? Oh,
01:34:25
watching movies. Um I really someone
01:34:28
what's your genre? I watched I watched
01:34:31
that movie Tina um which is a new um New
01:34:34
Zealand uh made film about a a Pacific
01:34:38
woman in Christ Church following the
01:34:39
Christ Church earthquakes. And there was
01:34:41
a particularly powerful moment in there
01:34:42
where I was like and I was at the
01:34:44
official premiere and I was blubbering
01:34:45
away in the audience and I was thinking
01:34:47
I hope no one sees me.
01:34:50
Yeah, I I find um I don't I'm going to
01:34:52
call it um like manopause. I'm funny as
01:34:55
I get older I get more and more
01:34:56
emotional and they're generally happy
01:34:57
tears which it's a wonderful emotion. Um
01:35:00
you I had Simon Bridges on the podcast a
01:35:02
couple of years ago and he said
01:35:04
sometimes like on a Friday he had be
01:35:06
taking the plane back to Toadong at the
01:35:07
end of a grueling week and had sometimes
01:35:09
shut his eyes on the plane and you sort
01:35:11
of feel the tears welling up behind it.
01:35:13
It's a tough job eh it's brutal. It is
01:35:15
and it's um it I actually and so a lot
01:35:19
of MPs will say that about going home. I
01:35:21
find it going the other way is the hard
01:35:23
part. Sometimes leaving home um is the
01:35:25
hard bit, particularly if you haven't
01:35:27
been there very long. Uh you know, you
01:35:29
come home, you you you just sort of
01:35:31
reconnect and then you're off again.
01:35:33
That's hard. Yeah.
01:35:36
Yeah. Cuz you don't get the time back,
01:35:38
do you? So it's a decision. So once it's
01:35:40
gone, it's gone. Um what's one thing
01:35:41
about you that most people wouldn't
01:35:43
know?
01:35:45
Oh, goodness me. I don't I
01:35:47
I don't know actually. I haven't thought
01:35:50
of that before because I try and be a
01:35:52
bit of an open book. You know, I think
01:35:54
it's one of the secrets to survival in
01:35:55
politics is to try and be pretty open.
01:35:58
Um because if you're open then there's
01:36:01
less room for rumors and speculation.
01:36:03
So, I don't know that there'd be much
01:36:04
about me that people don't know. Yeah.
01:36:07
Yeah. Um what about through through your
01:36:10
um relationship breakdown? Uh, what do
01:36:12
you think the biggest lessons you
01:36:13
learned about yourself were? Lessons I
01:36:15
learned about myself? Oh goodness. Um, I
01:36:19
think we we're all works in progress.
01:36:21
From the day we're born to the day we
01:36:22
die, we're always a work in progress.
01:36:24
And you always have to reflect, you
01:36:26
know, as as with anything when when a
01:36:28
relationship ends like that. You have
01:36:30
to there's there's always two sides to
01:36:33
that and you always have to reflect on
01:36:35
what could what what did I do? You know,
01:36:37
what could I have done differently? Um,
01:36:39
so I learned a lot from a lot about
01:36:41
myself from just that kind of internal
01:36:44
naval gazing um about what being a good
01:36:47
partner looks like. And I I wasn't
01:36:49
always a good partner. Well, hard with
01:36:51
the job as well. Not that I'm giving you
01:36:52
a completely free pass, but um yeah, it
01:36:55
is it is hard. It's a very important job
01:36:56
and there's a lot of like pressure and
01:36:58
expectation. It's funny the thing you
01:36:59
said there. That's one thing that I got
01:37:01
from therapy as well. Like the therapist
01:37:02
said in any situation just ask you know
01:37:04
what was my role in all this? Um and
01:37:06
it's a great way to go into any sort of
01:37:09
situation I find. Yeah, absolutely. And
01:37:11
you know always, you know, we are all
01:37:13
works in progress. No one's born
01:37:15
perfect. No one has all the answers.
01:37:17
We've always got to keep working on
01:37:18
ourselves. What's the No one gets to um
01:37:22
50 years of age without going through
01:37:23
some sort of big adversity. What What is
01:37:24
it for you professionally and
01:37:25
personally? Uh losing is never fun. Um
01:37:29
and right, you know, becoming prime
01:37:31
minister and losing an election was
01:37:33
pretty hard. Mh. Um, having said that,
01:37:35
if if I go through life and that's the
01:37:36
most adverse circumstance I ever face,
01:37:38
I'm pretty bloody lucky. Um, you know,
01:37:41
outside of work, relationship, breakups,
01:37:44
that's that's not been great. Um, but,
01:37:48
uh, I have to say, you know, I I feel
01:37:50
like I have been I've had a very lucky
01:37:52
life, and I feel incredibly um an
01:37:55
incredible amount of gratitude for that.
01:37:57
What are your best and worst habits?
01:37:59
Uh, I can be a bit
01:38:03
uh nitpicky sometimes. I I describe I
01:38:07
describe myself as a um uh now what was
01:38:11
the I I I came up with a phrase the
01:38:13
other day um to to describe it. So, I'm
01:38:16
very organized in my disorganization or
01:38:18
I'm very I'm very organized in my level
01:38:20
of distraction. So, what I'll do is I'll
01:38:22
make lists of things to do and then
01:38:23
typically pick off the least important
01:38:24
things to do first and not get to the to
01:38:27
the stuff that I actually really need to
01:38:28
do. Um, so I can be a bit kind of like
01:38:32
that really. Um, prone to
01:38:34
procrastination. Yeah. Yeah. So, um,
01:38:38
yeah, I I we all have bad habits. I can
01:38:41
um Yeah, I can procrastinate with the
01:38:44
best of them. Um, and the nitpicky thing
01:38:47
you reminded me Hosking said a thing
01:38:48
about you about a week ago. He described
01:38:50
you as like a little dog that barks at
01:38:52
every car that goes past. I feel that's
01:38:54
just been leader of the opposition by
01:38:56
nature. And and I've actually tried
01:38:57
really hard not to do that. So on areas
01:38:59
where we agree with the government, I've
01:39:00
actually tried to say that. But what you
01:39:02
find is, you know, in the in the modern
01:39:04
media, if I stand up and say, "Oh, by
01:39:06
and large I agree with the government on
01:39:08
that, there'll be no mention of me
01:39:09
whatsoever in in any coverage of that
01:39:12
particular issue." They'll only I only
01:39:14
get coverage when I'm disagreeing with
01:39:15
them. And so as a result, the public
01:39:17
think, oh, all you ever do is disagree.
01:39:19
Well, it's not actually we're agreeing
01:39:21
with a lot of the things that they're
01:39:22
doing. Well, no, actually not that many,
01:39:24
but there are occasions where we'll
01:39:25
agree with some of the stuff that
01:39:26
they're doing. It's just no one no one
01:39:28
mentions it. No one covers that. Once a
01:39:31
government gets um elected, how how long
01:39:34
do you think they can dine out on the
01:39:35
other party's mistakes? Everyone's
01:39:37
guilty of that across the spectrum.
01:39:38
Everyone's guilty of that, but I think
01:39:40
this government have done it more
01:39:42
forcefully than any other governments
01:39:44
before.
01:39:45
um and and unfairly in my view. Um I
01:39:47
think the public tolerance of it,
01:39:50
governments will continue to do that
01:39:51
forever, but public tolerance of it
01:39:53
starts to wayne. And I think this
01:39:55
government have kind of used up a lot of
01:39:56
the the goodwill that they might have
01:39:58
had for the public in that regard. So I
01:40:00
think already people are kind of like,
01:40:01
oh, you guys have been there for a year
01:40:02
and a half now. Come on. Yeah. Is there
01:40:05
a what if that keeps you up at night?
01:40:09
Lots of them. you know, what if there's
01:40:11
so many things that can happen in the
01:40:13
world right at the moment. Um, you know,
01:40:15
a big one, what if there is another
01:40:17
major global military conflict around
01:40:19
the world? We can't discount the
01:40:21
possibility of that happening. What if
01:40:23
there's a major natural disaster? I live
01:40:24
in Wellington. I literally live right
01:40:26
above the fault line. Um, that that's
01:40:28
that's going to happen at some point in
01:40:31
Oakland. What if there's a volcanic
01:40:32
eruption? You know, all of these things
01:40:35
are whatifs. But I think you can you can
01:40:39
spend your life thinking about that or
01:40:41
you can deal with things as they come
01:40:44
along and have the right attitude
01:40:45
towards them and get on with living
01:40:46
life. Um I remember looking after the
01:40:50
Canterbury earthquakes. I remember
01:40:53
walking down Lam K at lunchtime and
01:40:55
thinking of all of the people jammed
01:40:57
onto Lam K at lunchtime with all those
01:40:59
awnings above them and thinking if if
01:41:02
that if Canterbury happened here now all
01:41:04
these people what what would happen? But
01:41:07
then I also thought you can't stop
01:41:09
living your life on that basis. You
01:41:11
know, you still got to you still got to
01:41:12
get out of bed every day and go to work
01:41:13
and you still got to live life and if it
01:41:17
happens it happens.
01:41:19
Yeah. this I mean the sun's going to
01:41:21
rise every day whether you're up for it
01:41:22
or not, isn't there? Yeah. Is there a
01:41:24
mistake you wish you could go back and
01:41:25
correct?
01:41:27
Uh oh. Look, there's plenty of plenty
01:41:29
there particularly um that last sort of
01:41:33
around July, June, July, that period
01:41:35
that I was prime minister. A lot of
01:41:36
things went bad uh for us around
01:41:38
personnel issues. I'd go back and handle
01:41:40
some of those quite differently if I
01:41:41
could do them again.
01:41:45
Um, life life's life's full of things
01:41:48
that you do differently. I I think
01:41:51
that's different to a sense of regret.
01:41:54
You know, you you've got to learn from
01:41:56
what you've done, but if you spend all
01:41:58
your time regret regretting things, you
01:42:00
don't move forward. So, I think I don't
01:42:03
spend a lot of time on regret
01:42:05
because lessons, yes, regret, no.
01:42:10
Where do you see yourself? um like in 10
01:42:13
years time, 15 years time, what's next?
01:42:15
What's after politics? Uh I mean, I'd
01:42:17
like to have another go at being prime
01:42:18
minister. I've still got a lot of things
01:42:19
that I'd like to do. Um and I'd like to
01:42:22
have a good decent run at that. I mean,
01:42:24
6 months, I mean, it's effectively 6
01:42:26
months if you take out the election
01:42:27
campaign. Six months isn't much time to
01:42:28
do anything really in that job. Um I'd
01:42:31
like to have a good crack at that. Uh
01:42:33
beyond politics, I don't know. Haven't
01:42:36
really thought that far ahead. I've
01:42:37
never thought that far ahead, you know,
01:42:39
like I I believe you throw yourself into
01:42:40
what you're doing at the time and um and
01:42:43
as long as you're still enjoying it, um
01:42:46
then you keep going. But I did make a
01:42:48
promise to myself uh when I got into
01:42:51
politics that if I ever found myself
01:42:53
thinking I'm still doing this because I
01:42:55
don't know what else I could do, I would
01:42:57
quit and force myself to find something
01:42:58
else to do. Cuz I I've seen me members
01:43:01
of parliament who seem to still be there
01:43:03
because they just don't know what else
01:43:04
where else to go. And I never want to be
01:43:07
one of those. Um the minute the minute
01:43:09
the passion disappears, I'm just going
01:43:12
to I'll force myself to find something
01:43:13
else. C can you still lead Labor at the
01:43:16
next election? Because it feels like um
01:43:18
at land politics, there's a cynical sort
01:43:20
of thing where if you if if you lose an
01:43:22
election um they might keep you there
01:43:24
until near the next one and then someone
01:43:26
will roll you. No, like that happen or
01:43:28
does that all depend on polls and
01:43:29
things? No, I've I've absolutely got the
01:43:31
support of the team to lead the party
01:43:32
into the next election and uh plenty of
01:43:36
people have have made comebacks. Yeah.
01:43:38
Um Keith Holio, former New Zealand prime
01:43:40
minister, lost the election, became
01:43:43
prime minister at the last minute, lost
01:43:45
the election three years later was
01:43:46
elected and then he was prime minister
01:43:48
for 12 years across the Tasman. John
01:43:51
Howard lost an election uh and then
01:43:53
sometime later came back and it ended up
01:43:55
being a very long-erving Australian
01:43:57
prime minister. Oh, Trump. Most
01:43:58
recently. Most recently, Donald Trump
01:44:01
made a comeback after one term out. You
01:44:03
know, nobody saw that. We live in a
01:44:05
volatile political environment these
01:44:06
days. Yeah. Um, three words that um
01:44:10
family or friends would use to describe
01:44:11
you. Uh, Tony or your parents perhaps?
01:44:16
Uh, patient,
01:44:20
stubborn, and hopefully caring.
01:44:24
Well, they're good words. Yeah. Yeah.
01:44:26
And are you proud of yourself? Yeah,
01:44:28
absolutely. Absolutely. You know, all
01:44:31
human beings, as I said, are a work in
01:44:32
progress, but you have to you have to be
01:44:35
open to to improvement, but you should
01:44:38
also be proud of the things that you've
01:44:39
managed to achieve. It's hard for a lot
01:44:41
of New Zealanders to to say that. It
01:44:43
feels kind of like showy or something.
01:44:45
Yeah. And I I do think there's the whole
01:44:47
Kiwi Tool Poppy thing that we just need
01:44:49
to get over. It's okay to be proud of
01:44:51
yourself. It's okay to be to reflect on
01:44:53
things and say, "I I I'm I'm proud of
01:44:56
that accomplishment as long as it
01:44:57
doesn't doesn't become a sense of
01:44:59
arrogance. You've still got to be open
01:45:00
to improvement."
01:45:02
Hey, this has been really enjoyable
01:45:04
today. Awesome. How's it been for you?
01:45:05
Yeah, it's been great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:45:07
Yeah. I I get the feeling you're more
01:45:08
comfortable talking about the political
01:45:09
stuff than stuff centered around
01:45:12
yourself as a person. Well, it was
01:45:13
probably because I'm a political animal
01:45:15
and that's where I spend most of my life
01:45:16
um is working in politics. But but also
01:45:19
I mean I do try and kind of keep a bit
01:45:21
of a distinction there. So and I don't
01:45:23
talk about the family stuff much because
01:45:25
um I you know I want my family outside
01:45:30
of politics to be able to stay out of
01:45:31
it. And I suppose also you've seen um
01:45:34
painfully close just how brutal um the
01:45:36
media and the public on social media can
01:45:38
be to those people that you care about
01:45:39
the most. Well, I remember I think Phil
01:45:41
Goff uh said to me when we first when I
01:45:44
first started in politics, he said, "If
01:45:46
you put your family into the public
01:45:47
limelight when it's convenient, you
01:45:50
can't take them out of the spotlight
01:45:51
when it's not convenient."
01:45:54
And I've always remembered that because
01:45:57
if you use your family as a political
01:45:59
prop, if something goes wrong and the
01:46:02
media are asking you questions about
01:46:03
that, you can't then just revert to
01:46:04
privacy because you have chosen that
01:46:06
path. If you keep your family out of it,
01:46:09
then the path of to, you know, that that
01:46:11
that sort of thing of respecting
01:46:13
people's privacy, I think, is a much
01:46:14
stronger case.
01:46:17
Thanks so much for your time today. It's
01:46:19
been really good to connect and I really
01:46:20
appreciate it. It's been great. Yeah,
01:46:21
I've enjoyed it.
