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Sir John Key welcome to my podcast well
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that's quite a title is it well it's
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crazy to be here beautiful actually
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looks beautiful you've got everything
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going on and it's kind of nice that your
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name is so short cuz that fits in
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perfectly so you know like it's it's all
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good Al so your shorter name makes it
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cheaper for the neon cheaper for the
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Neons yeah yeah um how are you uh
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remarkably well actually I am uh having
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quite a Cru life I mean I'm sort of um
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yeah obviously doing some work still um
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but a lot of what I do I'm on three
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boards of three different companies
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either cheer them on them and they're
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largely offshore you know us related and
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they can be virtual if I need them to be
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so I'm not in that situation now where
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you know when I was say for instance on
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A&Z group board or cheering A&Z New
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Zealand that was 17 board meetings a
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year and a lot in Australia and I had to
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you know dedicate my diary around making
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sure I was in the right place now I can
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kind of be I like and make them fit in
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um so yeah so I've got I've actually got
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a really nice work life balance now
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between that and traveling and playing
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golf and flying helicopters and doing
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all sorts of other different things so
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it's it's it's a really good balance you
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say it's quite cruisy but I think by
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most people's measure it's probably
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quite quite hectic but I think after the
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after the pressure of being prime
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minister how many years were you PM uh
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eight yeah after 8 years of of that job
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where you're working I don't know 18 20
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hour days we'll get to that later I'm
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guessing anything sort of seems cruy
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yeah it does yeah yeah and and that's
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right you you get used to I mean what is
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what makes it so much better now is this
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and this is the thing I mean I talked to
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Chris Laxon obviously a bit and and you
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know so much of what he's doing he'll
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send me a picture I go yeah I remember I
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was there and I went there nine times or
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whatever and I remember that person and
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all those things it's just it's a
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marathon so you're out every night
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you're away every day um yeah you might
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even get home on a Wednesday night or
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something and it's 10: at night you got
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to go and do some reading so it's
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midnight and then you get up in the
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morning and you Department North or
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something so what I don't have now is I
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now I have lots of nights when we're
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home like Bron and I went for a walk
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this morning well you're never going to
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do that when you promise or even even in
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my previous working life so we did that
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and then yeah I'm kind of busy I got a
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few things on and then tonight we're
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going out for dinner you know we and so
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you just have you have a life you know
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you feel like you can do things but but
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for all of that the things that I did um
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in my previous working career where they
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ultimately actually Bing about obviously
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clearly politics you wouldn't trade it
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for anything they were the most
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incredible unique experiences and I will
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be eternally grateful I ever did it but
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but it's nice having a bit of me time
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now oh 100% 100% yeah kind I remember um
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so when you first became prime minister
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uh whatever month that happened to be
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you came in to see us at the edge for a
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Christmas interview so you're like two
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or three months under the desk and um
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the biggest surprise you said at that
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time was just how much readings involved
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and I'd imagine it's one of those jobs
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where you're just always on the back
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well they basically deliver you a
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briefcase every day and the and the
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briefcase sort of goes from points of
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importance so it's what you're doing
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tomorrow by the way that's a good idea
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that you know where you are what you're
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doing who you're talking to who you've
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met before who you haven't that s thing
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and then there's all the things are
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likely to blow up in the media the next
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morning by the way there's quite a few
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of those and then it's oh by the way
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every stupid thing you ever said about
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whatever you're now in trouble of
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tomorrow and then but then it's just a
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mountain of paperwork is coming and
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that's every day
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so of itself if you actually if I gave
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it to you today and you went oh I've got
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to dedicate a couple of hour that I'll
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do that you'd go okay well that's fine
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but it's it's every day and um people
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always ask me what you Lumin when you
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were primin and I go just how much the
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body can function with so little sleep
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because you're really in a permanent
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state of sleep deprivation that's really
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where you're at um and and it is funny
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you wake up in the morning you don't
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feel good I think if you're honest you
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know you probably know when you go to
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bed you sleep incredibly well because
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you don't have time actually to lie
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around there thinking about things just
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go to bed and you're exhausted um and
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when you wake up for the first 5 Seconds
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you don't feel great and then you're
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into it and you're away so but there's a
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huge amount of adrenaline stuff going on
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and so that that that helps feed the
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beast but but you know certainly a
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decade of being on the job I remember
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the I think it was the the heral the
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Dominion Post ran a series of pictures
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of me over 10 year perod now everyone
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ages but man I didn't look good at the
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end of it look any better now but look
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good at the end of it um but the the the
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Aging thing happens really quickly you
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see it with any leader even I think he
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was like gray after year he's pretty
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great now I saw him at the Democratic
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Convention um you know and man's still
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an amazing got to be the best oror of
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the world's produced in you know decades
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abely great speaker um but yeah yeah you
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they they all age and I mean you know
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like Bill Clinton it's every look
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frankly it's everybody and if you're in
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that job for long enough that's what
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comes with it and as I said I don't
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think it's I mean there a lot of
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everybody ages that's the thing I mean
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they just have a Time series of you and
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so it's easy to see and um uh you know
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you don't want to do this but I went
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into parliament in 2002 and if you have
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a look at some pictures of me going in
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and my maiden speech and stuff you I
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look really young but I was 40 you know
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I'm 63 today so some people come up to
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me they go oh you're looking bit rough
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or something okay but it was 25 years
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ago you know give me a break you so
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everyone looks a bit different over time
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yeah yeah yeah oh what what is your um
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relationship with um Chris lexon really
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good yeah did you become friends when
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you were prime minister and he was of he
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was head of so he used to he used to
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ring me quite a lot he he I will say
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people like in the time that I was P
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because I came from a very unusual route
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I didn't really come from being a
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political person I was green as grass
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but I wanted to do it and I'd been a
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long-term member of the national party
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but that's quite different from working
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in the Research Unit being around this
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thing being actively involved I was a
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business guy you know and um so then a
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lot of other business people saw me do
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that and thought you know hey I would
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mind being prime minister maybe I could
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do this and of all the people that used
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to ring me or talk to me or contact me
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he was the only one I ever thought would
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go all the way and by that actually give
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up the job actually run and actually do
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it and and and he honestly he used to
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ring me at like 11:30 at night I'd be in
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my office of Wellington and he'd go I've
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just been watching question time
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question three why did you give that
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answer and I go for goodness sake Chris
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it's theater they're not asking a
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question they want an answer to they
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know the answer they just want they just
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want to wind me up or wind and so it's
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all about theater and so we've been
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friends for a very long time and um and
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you know and I'm you know I don't want
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to say I'm as Mentor because I like he
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he runs his own ship and his own thing
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but I'm probably one person he can talk
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to that at least has been there and
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knows what it's like good and bad and
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probably probably a person that can
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occasionally say to them hey you might
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actually change tack on that or maybe do
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something different there just on the
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basis that um you're in an unusual power
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position I actually finally had it with
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my chief of staff Wayne egleson who was
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I used to describe as the unelected
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prime minister of New Zealand he was the
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one person that would come on occasion
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and go yeah well you might believe what
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you said but tomorrow morning you're
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saying sorry and you're doing this and
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you're doing that or you're wrong and um
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and uh in in the entire 10 years we had
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together um there was only once I
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actually disagreed and said no I don't
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think you're right and I did what I
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thought I was right and and actually I
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think on the occasion I was
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right it was one in 10 years the other
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999 I had to follow his advice cuz I've
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noticed um just recently last couple of
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weeks um LX seemed um there's been times
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where he seemed quite Snappy with the
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media and I Part of Me part of me thinks
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has has someone told him that he needs
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to be more more defiant with them or is
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he actually like seeing the red my you
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never did did you no looked it's your
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own style I always sort of you right or
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wrong took the view you know the you
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know the famous line you know don't buy
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a fight with people who buy ink by the
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barrel you know like you can't win you
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won't win you can't win and I had it
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once actually we were in the middle of
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um I think it was um
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2014 when was doing the Moment of Truth
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which by the way there wasn't a lot of
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Truth as we now know but anyway and the
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media were obsessed with the whole thing
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and oh then that book Hager written yet
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another book and it was all that stuff
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you forget it was a long time ago um and
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so Steven Joyce who was our campaign
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manager he said to me he said look uh
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what we're going to do with this press
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conference is you're going to do this
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stuff and when they when you've answered
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you know 10 mons of questions at the end
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of it end of that 10 months I want you
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to get up and say right it's enough to
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say you're walking out and I said well
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that's not what I've normally done I've
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always just burned them out he said no
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no but that's what we're going to do
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today and I went okay and everyone
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agreed so I said fine so I did that and
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the headlines the next day were
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something like you know prime minister
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rattled prime minister angry something
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like that and and I said to him I'm not
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doing that again I'll just burn these
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guys out and it doesn't matter if it
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takes an hour and 10 minutes I'll answer
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all the questions cuz I know the answer
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to every question they've got they might
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not like the answer but I know it um so
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M yeah mine wasn't mine was just sort of
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to say look yeah okay you can have a
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good relationship with them and they
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they may not always they may not always
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agree with you but the important the
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really important thing to remember is
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that you can be doing an interview and I
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might be doing an interview with John
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Campbell and John Campbell is not going
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to be voting for the national party and
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probably not a massive fan of my
00:09:50
policies when I was prime minister but
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I'm not talking to John Campbell like
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I'm not talking to you now really I'm
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talking to the people that listen to
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your podcast right and so that's just a
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vehicle for communicating to those
00:10:03
people and many of the people who
00:10:04
watched John Campbell's show when you
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had Campbell live or whatever they were
00:10:08
National Party supporters you know they
00:10:09
they might not have agreed with lots of
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things that John personally thought but
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they were interested in show or they
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liked it or they found it entertaining
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or they you know they liked him
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personally but didn't like you know
00:10:19
necessar his policies um or what he
00:10:21
thought was right um and so when you get
00:10:24
in there and you just give your in a
00:10:26
relaxed way answer to the question then
00:10:29
people that just gives some reassurance
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they go yeah am I guys on top of that
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that's his View and it's it's like I
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don't know whether you watch the vice
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presidential debate but I thought JD
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Vance who you know like a lot of people
00:10:41
think is like Devil sort of thing and
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mean like he's said a lot of things that
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you know are way away from what I would
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believe because I'm actually socially
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liberal as you probably know I'm
00:10:50
economically conservative he's obviously
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clearly very conservative he I thought
00:10:54
he gave the master class yesterday
00:10:57
because he did an amazing he's got an
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amazing back story if you haven't seen
00:11:00
either the movie or his book you know
00:11:03
either read the book or watch the movie
00:11:05
bit quicker on Netflix amazing back
00:11:07
story and he did a great job of feeding
00:11:09
that and and looking likable and I think
00:11:12
in the end that's what you're trying to
00:11:14
do I think is is to be relatable so I
00:11:17
mean you know but but everyone has their
00:11:19
own style Chris has obviously decided
00:11:21
I'm going to push back a bit harder and
00:11:23
um and that's that's fine too I mean
00:11:25
it's it's whatever style you like mean
00:11:26
Winston's made a lifetimes work
00:11:30
including at the United Nations recently
00:11:32
so hey you know everyone's different
00:11:34
well since since you bought up American
00:11:36
politics um the the time we're recording
00:11:38
this it's the first week of October um
00:11:40
you're blown up in the news the last
00:11:42
couple of days for saying you're backing
00:11:44
Trump or something what no what I said
00:11:46
was that I thought he'd win and I mean
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to be fair I said look it's 55 45 it's
00:11:50
really close I mean this is the thing in
00:11:51
the United States is we don't have first
00:11:54
past the post now every vote doesn't
00:11:55
count as sorry we don't have um in New
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Zealand we have m where every vote
00:12:00
counts so it doesn't matter whether
00:12:01
you're a national voter delivering mango
00:12:03
we're not going to win the seat but that
00:12:05
National vote counts cuz it's party vote
00:12:07
that counts in the US it's just where
00:12:09
you live so if you're that's why only
00:12:11
half of all Americans vote because if
00:12:13
you're a republican in California you
00:12:15
know you know the Republicans aren't
00:12:18
going to win the state so you don't vote
00:12:20
and if you're a Democrat half the time
00:12:21
you go well they don't need my vote so I
00:12:22
don't bother so half of them don't vote
00:12:25
um so it's going to come down to those
00:12:27
real swing States so so sort of fly over
00:12:30
Rust Belt states Pennsylvania will be
00:12:31
the big one cuz it's got 16 or 17
00:12:34
Electoral College votes and um and so
00:12:37
it's really tight but I I think
00:12:39
Trump because Trump's personality is
00:12:42
what it is I think he under represents
00:12:45
in polls CU I think some people will
00:12:47
vote for him thinking he'll be better
00:12:49
for I don't know border control or the
00:12:51
economy or whatever it might be don't
00:12:53
want to say to a pul that they're doing
00:12:54
that so I think he is a bit on the light
00:12:56
side I mean it's really close have it
00:12:58
been Biden
00:12:59
completely different story but I think
00:13:01
with carel Harris it's you know much
00:13:03
much tighter but I I think he can get
00:13:05
there um but you know it look equally
00:13:10
yeah could I could I could convince
00:13:11
myself be the other way but does it does
00:13:13
it um annoy you though like that your
00:13:15
words to care even though you haven't
00:13:17
been prime minister for however many
00:13:18
years um you you say something and you
00:13:20
know it can sort of get twisted or
00:13:22
turned and it becomes like a big
00:13:24
headline yeah I mean look it's sort of
00:13:26
clickbait isn't it in the world that we
00:13:27
live in I mean what it surprises there's
00:13:29
two things that surprised me more and
00:13:31
like and it happened this morning when I
00:13:32
was I was literally BR and I went for a
00:13:34
walk and then we had coffee a guy came
00:13:36
up to me and said um I did a fantastic
00:13:38
job wish you'd come back and like BR
00:13:41
goes you've been out of this thing for
00:13:43
seven years people are taking selfies of
00:13:45
you every day and coming up to you like
00:13:46
that happens literally every day and
00:13:49
it's a nice thing I mean it's really
00:13:51
nice that people you know would want you
00:13:53
me I person think Chris doing a great
00:13:55
job and the government's doing great job
00:13:56
so I need to go back but the point being
00:13:58
that it's really nice that people do
00:14:00
that and I will say yeah the older I get
00:14:02
the better I was so you know it's like a
00:14:04
lot of things in life I think probably
00:14:05
like child birth you know he want you
00:14:07
throw it you can sort of remember the
00:14:08
good bits which is you know the baby um
00:14:11
so uh look I think in that regard um
00:14:16
yeah I'm not I I I am was surprised but
00:14:19
it's it's just been there and I don't
00:14:22
know you know like and I've sit with Max
00:14:24
you know like he will he will literally
00:14:26
buy buy a buy a site because he's a
00:14:28
property developer and it'll make the
00:14:30
news and it's like why is that
00:14:33
particularly news with it's not but but
00:14:37
but the simple facts of life art in the
00:14:39
modern world that we live in they you
00:14:41
know media needs people to click on
00:14:43
their thing and if you just go and talk
00:14:45
to the herald or something they'll be
00:14:47
quite honest I'll tell you look with our
00:14:49
nam's here people click on it and um I I
00:14:53
remember saying to the editor of the
00:14:54
herald one time you know you you writing
00:14:57
way too many articles about Max it's a
00:14:59
but unfair on a young guy to be doing
00:15:00
that he said yeah I know but he said it
00:15:02
just goes nuts every time we every time
00:15:03
we put his name up we just get a lot of
00:15:06
hits so they were quite honest about it
00:15:09
you know so yeah I had Max on the
00:15:10
podcast about a year and a half ago we
00:15:12
had a had a great chat and it's um yeah
00:15:15
he during those those years when you
00:15:17
were prime minister he got a raw you
00:15:18
look at it he got a raw deal he he he
00:15:21
was unfairly treated really what how how
00:15:24
old was he he was a kid when 14 15 you
00:15:26
know that s of stuff I mean you're
00:15:27
younger actually younger
00:15:29
um so you know what it is was first you
00:15:33
got to remember we were the first um you
00:15:37
know family if you like for a while that
00:15:40
that had had children so Helen had been
00:15:41
there for for 9 years but didn't have
00:15:43
children so it was a bit of a novelty at
00:15:46
that point again for us to turn up with
00:15:48
two kids that were relatively young
00:15:50
secondly um it was the it was the start
00:15:52
of social media and so you know that
00:15:55
wasn't around really in Helen's day and
00:15:57
even in my day you know Instagram was
00:15:59
the thing you put up a photo on at the
00:16:01
very end of my time being prime minister
00:16:03
you weren't dming people and all of that
00:16:05
kind of stuff and and I mean you know
00:16:07
you weren't using like look at the
00:16:08
modern world I mean the politicians of
00:16:11
all Stripes all around the world try and
00:16:13
go around the mainstream media not to be
00:16:14
difficult because they hate them but
00:16:15
because that's how they connect via
00:16:17
where is Facebook or Tik Tok or whatever
00:16:19
platform they want so that was all
00:16:21
different so that was so there were many
00:16:23
things and then to be fair you know Max
00:16:27
sometimes CED it a bit he you know he
00:16:29
had periods of LoveHate relationship
00:16:31
with all but times where he liked it and
00:16:33
Stephy is Stephy you know she's an
00:16:35
amazing girl but she like I mean she did
00:16:36
Cover herself and and Sushi and then
00:16:39
photograph herself semi naked so yeah
00:16:42
that sort of thing does get the media's
00:16:43
attention occasionally you look back in
00:16:45
hindsight that was rough like Steph it
00:16:47
was an art project and M in terms of um
00:16:50
um you know High Janks or whatever you
00:16:52
want to call it teenage boys get out to
00:16:54
it was fairly low level the um one thing
00:16:56
that the thing where he um it was a
00:16:59
Snapchat where he yelled out to a
00:17:01
cyclist
00:17:03
woman it was it was a dumb joke but it
00:17:06
was a joke by teenage boy how how do you
00:17:08
hear about that do you hear about it
00:17:09
from him or from the
00:17:10
media it depended on the circumstances
00:17:13
generally generally from him but
00:17:15
sometimes from my press sex that would
00:17:17
be like wow you're going to get that one
00:17:19
I mean there were very I mean most for
00:17:22
the most part I I really defend them and
00:17:24
actually the New Zealand Public were
00:17:26
amazing cuz they just sat there and went
00:17:28
well our do that stuff even if it was
00:17:30
dumb or even if it was you know a bit
00:17:32
sort of you know you know geish or young
00:17:35
young boy stuff I mean they go yeah okay
00:17:37
but but our teenage son does that too
00:17:40
you know like he's not on his own um and
00:17:42
for the most part they were they were
00:17:43
great kids you know they didn't do
00:17:45
anything seriously wrong but something
00:17:46
like that like are you are you telling
00:17:48
them off are you on the phone saying
00:17:49
what if are you doing there was one or
00:17:51
two there was I can't remember it might
00:17:53
have been that one or another one where
00:17:54
I just said look yeah that's just that's
00:17:56
just no um and but but but for the most
00:17:59
part you know it would depend on the
00:18:01
circumstance of what he was doing and
00:18:04
what it was but I mean you know I
00:18:05
remember when he he came home that day
00:18:07
and did a plank and he was in the he was
00:18:10
it was when planking was the big deal
00:18:12
and he was in the study and he yells out
00:18:15
at me I'd been in Parliament all week I
00:18:17
walk into the study and he'd set up the
00:18:19
camera somehow in a way where he takes
00:18:21
that photo apparently we were
00:18:22
single-handedly killed blanking but
00:18:25
anyway worldwide or whatever a little
00:18:27
rough but yeah it was and then that was
00:18:29
days of it and then he I know we we get
00:18:31
in the spa one day he takes a photo and
00:18:33
I'm there you know like you know and I
00:18:35
mean it's not like I'm naked but I don't
00:18:37
obviously got togs on so I mean yeah and
00:18:39
stuff like that I mean when you look
00:18:41
back on all of it it makes you laugh you
00:18:43
know really um but at the time some of
00:18:47
it was like oh so it was a bit draining
00:18:49
but it comes back to what you said I
00:18:50
mean this is the problem and this is
00:18:52
what I was try and say to people when
00:18:53
they go into politics you know it's a
00:18:55
weird world you're in because when you
00:18:58
first go there you're cting the media
00:19:01
you know you want to be noticed you want
00:19:03
them to you know like you and to promote
00:19:05
you and all that sort stuff and then all
00:19:07
of a sudden when you turn them on just
00:19:09
be careful because you can't turn them
00:19:10
off and um but you I remember like we we
00:19:14
did commercial radio which obviously you
00:19:16
know you know J Mike and do yeah yeah um
00:19:19
and you you're our favorite Prim out of
00:19:22
all the seconds of prises I've had Helen
00:19:25
never played ball never wanted to play
00:19:27
ball no no it was all I was stupid
00:19:29
enough to do but but but the thing was
00:19:32
though I was worked on the principal a
00:19:33
lot again if you go back to what I was
00:19:35
saying ear you're really talking to the
00:19:36
audience I reckon there were a whole you
00:19:39
know hundreds of thousands of people
00:19:41
that used to listen to your show who
00:19:42
weren't actually that interested in
00:19:44
politics didn't really know much about
00:19:45
me didn't know really much about
00:19:47
politics in general but I Reon they
00:19:49
would have come away and said oh he's a
00:19:50
bit of a laugh he seems like an okay guy
00:19:52
probably voted for us you know so there
00:19:54
was method in the madness in that um
00:19:57
you're just trying to show them your
00:19:58
person Al it a little bit and and to be
00:20:00
fair I've kind of got that personality
00:20:03
where I've definitely an A type
00:20:04
personality obviously so you know I
00:20:06
wasn't like I was trying to you know I
00:20:08
got some dark personality and I was
00:20:09
trying to turn it on when I was it just
00:20:11
as who I am um and for the most part it
00:20:13
worked really really well for me and it
00:20:15
was like you know the yeah like it like
00:20:18
when you build a bit of a following I I
00:20:20
remember in 2014 like I said that was
00:20:22
the time when we had the.com thing in
00:20:24
the book and everything and it was so
00:20:25
internally it was feeling like oh my
00:20:27
goodness gracious you know was all
00:20:28
feeling quite ugly I I remember ringing
00:20:31
at Wayne you know my chief staff and
00:20:33
saying this is nuts we were trying to
00:20:35
walk into malls on doing the Walkabout
00:20:38
during the campaigns we if we couldn't
00:20:41
get through the double doors to get a
00:20:43
little bit of space inside the whole
00:20:46
thing was there was so many people come
00:20:48
around us taking F and it was just crazy
00:20:51
it was like honestly hundreds and
00:20:53
hundreds and hundreds of people trying
00:20:54
to take photos and I said to way I said
00:20:57
look I know I know when we do the
00:21:00
standup every day it's like you believe
00:21:02
that you know we're in so much trouble
00:21:04
it's not funny but I said it's like a
00:21:06
rock concert out there I've never felt
00:21:08
anything like that and um and to be fair
00:21:11
I had a lot of it over the time over the
00:21:14
over the sort of 10 years I was the
00:21:16
leader and eight years I was prime
00:21:17
minister I had a lot of it but but it
00:21:19
was a great barometer and I think by
00:21:22
building that sort of I guess that
00:21:25
personality that just that it just it
00:21:28
just meant that if if there was
00:21:30
something negative in the media people
00:21:32
kind of um could see around it and I was
00:21:35
thought like if I did a selfie with you
00:21:37
know some young person and then they
00:21:39
show it to their parents and then they
00:21:41
share it with all their friends and all
00:21:42
that stuff and then they go oh what was
00:21:43
he like and then they go yeah he seemed
00:21:45
really nice and he took it of us and all
00:21:46
this but you know that that personal
00:21:49
support probably adds a lot more than an
00:21:52
editorial which might be negative about
00:21:54
me because most people don't read the
00:21:55
editorial whereas they actually listen
00:21:57
to the Billy who met me somewhere and
00:21:59
goes oh he was actually way better than
00:22:01
I thought or whatever yeah you were
00:22:03
great like when um there's there's one
00:22:05
clip of you on coming on our radio show
00:22:06
singing the Mariah care oh god well
00:22:08
there still the Shocker isn't it it's
00:22:10
had millions of views on Tik Tok um
00:22:14
Millions when when and not in a good way
00:22:17
when when you do when you did that like
00:22:18
did did you go did Leslie your press
00:22:21
lady like tell you off in the car yeah
00:22:23
yeah no no no no I got a pacing yeah but
00:22:26
every time I put on a hat I had to pay a
00:22:28
fine I literally used to just pay the
00:22:30
morning tea fine before I even left in
00:22:31
the week I just go like here's the money
00:22:34
every time you put on a hat some stupid
00:22:36
hat they didn't like that and because
00:22:38
they knew the media would take a photo
00:22:39
then they had some get another picture
00:22:41
of me and they everywhere you go they go
00:22:43
no hats and then they' give me some hat
00:22:44
and I put the bloody hat on and then I
00:22:46
have to pay the fine which was morning
00:22:48
tea for the press press secret and so I
00:22:51
know just basically was a direct debit
00:22:53
from my account um but again you know it
00:22:56
was like people yeah I tell you a really
00:22:59
interesting story Angela Merkel you know
00:23:01
the chancellor of Germany she came to
00:23:02
New Zealand so she comes over and she
00:23:05
was she's a great one I actually think
00:23:07
she's one of the great leaders actually
00:23:08
I know there were one or two things that
00:23:10
weren't perfect but there was a hell of
00:23:11
a lot right and she lead Europe and she
00:23:13
was she made Germany the you know the
00:23:15
strong man of Europe anyway she she
00:23:17
comes out and she was coming to the G20
00:23:19
and we were going because we're not
00:23:20
we're the 53rd economy in the world so
00:23:22
we're not big enough to go to the G20
00:23:24
but we were going and um because you can
00:23:27
if you're the host you invite your
00:23:28
friends so Australia had to invite us
00:23:30
and Tony invited us over so we were fine
00:23:33
so Anga said I'm going to come down to
00:23:35
New Zealand I'm going to come on the
00:23:36
Thursday and Friday or something and
00:23:38
then we'll go over to um you know
00:23:41
G20 which was in Brisbane so I said yeah
00:23:44
fine all good so she comes s here and I
00:23:46
so I rang her up and I said what do you
00:23:47
want to do and I knew it quite well so I
00:23:48
said what do you want to do she said
00:23:49
John I don't want to do meetings let's
00:23:51
just do one little you know a meet and
00:23:53
greet you know a little little thing a
00:23:54
press conference but I want to do nature
00:23:57
you know cuz you know the Germans love
00:23:58
nature right a lot of gym tourists come
00:24:00
for nature so I said okay so we decided
00:24:03
we'd take her to motoro Island and to
00:24:05
release a Ki right so anyway there's
00:24:08
this picture of her and she's holding
00:24:10
the Kiwi I think I'm standing next to
00:24:12
her and then she releases this kiwi into
00:24:14
the W anyway fine so you that's the end
00:24:16
of it there's tons of media and lots of
00:24:17
people we've done same thing with Prince
00:24:19
William and you know he came out anyway
00:24:21
fine all good so anyway on the Sunday
00:24:23
she comes over she goes John John I go
00:24:26
go yes she goes the picture the picture
00:24:28
and I go what picture Ang she goes the
00:24:31
picture me and the kiwi and I go yeah
00:24:33
yeah it was a good picture she goes that
00:24:34
picture has had five times more views
00:24:37
than anything I've done at the
00:24:39
G20 this is like the to be the 20 big
00:24:42
leaders of the world and people are
00:24:43
looking at the picture of her with a
00:24:45
kiwi right in New Zeal and that's the
00:24:47
point that most people in their lives
00:24:48
they just say to politicians oh you get
00:24:50
on with the the hard stuff good better
00:24:52
and different they're actually
00:24:54
interested in human life they're
00:24:55
interested in and that's why you know
00:24:58
celebrity pictures of their wedding or I
00:25:00
don't know on the holiday somewhere that
00:25:02
sells because it's relatable and the
00:25:06
other stuff is just like I don't know
00:25:07
what the oecd stanville what do they
00:25:09
really do I know you know that kind of
00:25:11
stuff yeah yeah yeah that's true I
00:25:13
suppose there's some people that are
00:25:14
like super Super Hyper actively engaged
00:25:16
in politics but then 80% in the middle
00:25:18
that just yeah they just sort of roughly
00:25:20
good close enough is good enough um well
00:25:23
these are great Yarns hey um let's go um
00:25:26
let's go all the way back I've got a
00:25:27
photo here to
00:25:29
okay oh you're the State House 19 Holly
00:25:31
for yeah I wanted to buy it actually
00:25:32
when the government was selling them off
00:25:34
yeah so let's talk about the the early
00:25:35
years so so values and lessons so um
00:25:39
that you were born in Orland and yeah
00:25:40
born Inland yeah you moved into 19
00:25:42
Holford 19 hollyood was in crush so when
00:25:45
I was about six I think dad died and had
00:25:48
this massive heart attack drop down dead
00:25:51
um and so Mom had gone off to the
00:25:53
accountant and said look my husband's
00:25:55
died he's got all these businesses I've
00:25:57
got three children um he and the
00:25:59
accountant said come back in two weeks
00:26:00
and he basically said you want the good
00:26:01
news or the bad news and she said no
00:26:03
I'll take the bad news first and he said
00:26:05
you're broke she what's the good news
00:26:07
and he's he said well I'm not too bad of
00:26:10
an accounter I can get you out of quite
00:26:11
a bit of stuff her mom said nah that's
00:26:12
not really how it work so she sold the
00:26:14
family home sold up all the businesses
00:26:16
sold everything and moved us to kashish
00:26:18
which is how we ended up in the infamous
00:26:20
kind of state house which was 19 Holly
00:26:23
so yeah I remember her being there but
00:26:24
you know the interesting thing with this
00:26:26
was we stayed there my other sisters
00:26:28
older than me so Liz went off to London
00:26:30
Sue was um 3 years older than me
00:26:32
eventually you know what all people you
00:26:35
young young people did those say got a
00:26:36
job at 16 and then you know went
00:26:38
overseas and um I convinced m m was M
00:26:43
was a great worker and she was a cleaner
00:26:46
she so that was the only thing she was a
00:26:47
night Porter cuz she cuz she could do
00:26:49
something when I was in bed literally at
00:26:51
night and she could go from work and
00:26:54
leave my sisters there at the time and
00:26:56
then later on she was a cleaner but she
00:26:58
saved enough money to buy herself an
00:27:01
ownership flat so she moved out so she
00:27:03
moved to um you know 160 High Road
00:27:05
actually I think it was but yeah what
00:27:07
are your Recollections of your dad uh
00:27:09
virtually none I know it sounds really
00:27:12
weird yeah but um Dad was dad was that
00:27:15
was his second marriage so we had two I
00:27:17
got two half Brothers one of them was
00:27:18
passed away actually but so dad was
00:27:20
quite a bit older than Mom and um they'd
00:27:23
met after the war so they then they come
00:27:25
out to New Zealand so um so weirdly I
00:27:29
have one memory of him um and it was he
00:27:32
gave me some toy and he was I think he
00:27:33
was in trouble with Mom so I think I
00:27:35
remember the ra um and to be FY drank a
00:27:39
bit too much if you know what I mean so
00:27:40
there was a few issues but but but um
00:27:44
but yeah I virtually no memories of him
00:27:48
and um and Mom just sort of when dad
00:27:51
died mom just sort of really moved on
00:27:53
she never she never
00:27:55
remarried and um
00:27:58
and she but she she was an incredible
00:28:00
person I mean she was this Austrian
00:28:02
Jewish Refugee you know had got out when
00:28:05
the Nazis invaded out of Austria she
00:28:07
always used to say to me look John you
00:28:09
get out of life what you put into it and
00:28:11
you you can sit around with every excuse
00:28:12
you want but ultimately you you're the
00:28:14
master of your own destiny and it was
00:28:17
that and really education she used to
00:28:19
say look you they can take money away
00:28:21
from you they can do all of these things
00:28:23
but ultimately they can't take your
00:28:24
drive and they can't take um your
00:28:26
education away from you if you have both
00:28:29
of those things you can make it work and
00:28:31
and so many people when I was prime
00:28:33
minister used to come up to me and go
00:28:34
yeah mate I grew up in the state house I
00:28:35
did this and they massively successful
00:28:38
so which is not to say it's an easy life
00:28:40
for someone so I understand completely
00:28:42
you how hard does for youngsters it
00:28:43
might find themselves in a difficult
00:28:45
position but I do think ultimately
00:28:47
ultimately if you want to make it you
00:28:50
can and you will you even today and as
00:28:53
difficult as you can and you will I love
00:28:55
that that's such you had a guy on the
00:28:56
the podcast a couple of months ago
00:28:58
called um I don't expect you to know the
00:28:59
name but abz nazari and uh his family
00:29:01
were on the uh the Tampa oh they're on
00:29:03
the Tampa yeah yeah so they they um I
00:29:05
think John Howard didn't want them in
00:29:07
Australia New Zealand and he he learned
00:29:09
he learned the English alphabet in the
00:29:11
um Refugee Center in mang and now he he
00:29:15
owns a couple of business his dad who
00:29:16
was stripped of his identity and
00:29:18
everything and he came to New Zealand
00:29:19
with nothing now he a like a car parts
00:29:21
business in kich with 20 staff like
00:29:23
every single family member's done
00:29:24
exceptionally well from this um State
00:29:26
housing environment and the opportunity
00:29:28
they were given in New Zealand yeah and
00:29:29
that's what you see on migration I'm I
00:29:31
was always Pro migration so when people
00:29:34
don't like migration it's generally
00:29:36
speaking not that they're a bunch of
00:29:37
racists I mean you know you can obvious
00:29:39
get people who might be like that but
00:29:40
but as a general rule new zealanders are
00:29:42
actually not racists and they and they
00:29:44
get on with their neighbors and they
00:29:46
like their workmates and all that sort
00:29:47
of stuff and all the rest of it right
00:29:49
what they don't like about migration is
00:29:51
if they think that the the Ser Social
00:29:54
Services they rely on the school they
00:29:56
send their child the hospital they might
00:29:57
need to go to the road that they drive
00:30:00
on if they think they're overpowered by
00:30:02
by lots of people coming in they don't
00:30:04
like that right and we basically have
00:30:06
legal migration New Zealand so the big
00:30:08
debate in places like the UK with brexit
00:30:11
or the United States with this all this
00:30:13
build the wall and all that stuff that's
00:30:15
all driven off illegal migration but
00:30:17
we've this massive SE round New Zealand
00:30:19
you might have noticed so it's quite
00:30:21
tricking to get to and and so basically
00:30:23
our migration is legal so we can control
00:30:26
tap and see why to say to people is look
00:30:28
it's good if you bring Capital as a
00:30:31
migrant so you know these these people
00:30:32
who come and they build businesses and
00:30:34
they're fantastic um it's it's good if
00:30:36
you bring skills and high level of
00:30:38
Education again fantastic you can fit in
00:30:40
but most of all bring the bring the
00:30:42
attitude that you want to make New
00:30:44
Zealand your home and you want to work
00:30:46
hard and I mean you can pick any
00:30:49
combination you want right I mean I'm
00:30:51
just but but okay take the South African
00:30:54
population um there's a huge number of
00:30:56
South Africans that have come to New
00:30:57
Zealand of them live in ockland she last
00:31:00
time I locked on and see many of them
00:31:01
being unemployed I mean they work hard
00:31:04
they're
00:31:05
entrepreneurial um you know they they
00:31:08
frankly they might still support the box
00:31:10
and that's about it you know you know by
00:31:12
the way we're beating us a bit more than
00:31:14
than they should be um but you know the
00:31:16
Filipinos I mean you go to any hospital
00:31:18
and show me and show me how the place
00:31:20
would operate without Filipino nurses
00:31:22
and so what are these people bringing
00:31:24
they're
00:31:25
bringing because you're a migrant and
00:31:27
because because you have to give up so
00:31:29
much from where you were to make a new
00:31:32
place home you have to give up your
00:31:34
family half time and your friends and
00:31:36
the things that make you feel
00:31:37
comfortable from foods and you know I
00:31:39
know drinks and newspapers and all that
00:31:42
sort of stuff I mean of course in the
00:31:43
modern world a bit more of it
00:31:44
supportable but not as much as it was um
00:31:47
or not you know not nothing like being
00:31:49
there you it takes a certain personality
00:31:53
to do that and that personality breeds
00:31:55
in you a determination and that why you
00:31:59
know look at the number of of Asian
00:32:01
parents that really push their kids now
00:32:04
you can say maybe they're pushing them
00:32:05
too hard and you know there's too much
00:32:07
you know study after school and ballet
00:32:10
and all that stuff but but in the end
00:32:11
they're doing that because they came
00:32:13
from highly competitive place they gave
00:32:15
up everything to be here and they they
00:32:17
are literally dedicating their life for
00:32:20
their for their children and those
00:32:21
children are very often going on to
00:32:24
being partners of law firms and surgeons
00:32:27
and whatever so
00:32:28
that's kind of why I'm Pro well it kind
00:32:30
of goes back to the um the the mentor
00:32:32
from your mom you get out what you put
00:32:34
on yeah and she was she was like that
00:32:36
she was and she was hard like my my
00:32:38
mother was very very European in that
00:32:41
regard you know how like you know like I
00:32:43
I if you watch F1 but like Max for
00:32:45
Stefan most people don't seem to like
00:32:46
Max for Stefan actually we went to F1 in
00:32:48
Singapore for semi work and obviously a
00:32:51
lot of fun and I actually I like Max for
00:32:54
7 and I get it that some people don't
00:32:56
because he's you know sounds a bit Gruff
00:32:58
or whatever um but he's just he's just
00:33:02
that those sort of you know benx type
00:33:05
countries you know basically Germany
00:33:06
Austria you know the Netherlands that
00:33:09
they you know they are a bit more abrupt
00:33:12
sometimes um but but but they're just
00:33:16
telling you what they think and they
00:33:17
don't even mean it in a way that's we
00:33:19
might sugarcoat it a bit more but you
00:33:21
know in a lot of ways I'd rather you
00:33:22
tell me what you think I mean you know
00:33:23
it's actually fine I I can I can live
00:33:25
with it it's it's probably if you tell
00:33:26
me one thing in mean something different
00:33:28
that I probably don't like yeah
00:33:30
absolutely so so you wanted to be um you
00:33:33
had like aspirations to be prime
00:33:34
minister from a real young age like 10 I
00:33:37
was about 10 years what did you why what
00:33:39
did you what did you associate with the
00:33:40
job at that age did you associate money
00:33:42
with it power well well I think you yeah
00:33:45
okay it's power and opportunity and
00:33:47
money and Glamour and all of those
00:33:49
things you know like these are the days
00:33:51
where you know New Zealand had one one
00:33:52
TV channel oh by the way oops we're
00:33:54
getting rapidly back to that situation
00:33:57
but you know yeah and so you watch the
00:34:00
news and M was a massive sort of you
00:34:03
know like she yeah I guess it was
00:34:04
probably that generation not we're still
00:34:06
the same we still watch six o' news and
00:34:08
we watch both channels but um but you
00:34:10
know she watched the news and and I was
00:34:12
always s of and she loved political
00:34:15
debate you know she actually liked the
00:34:17
discussion about things and she was yeah
00:34:19
like I said my mother was very socially
00:34:21
liberal um and and actually more labor
00:34:25
than than National cuz she you know the
00:34:26
state house and all that sort stuff but
00:34:28
but but basically she was quite happy to
00:34:31
have the discussion you know like she
00:34:33
was interested in that and so I got
00:34:35
interested and then I just watched it
00:34:37
and I think I think look your
00:34:38
motivations when I ran I was 40 so your
00:34:41
motivations for becoming a MP and
00:34:44
hopefully one day prime minister at 40
00:34:46
is very different from a 10-year-old you
00:34:48
know um but but you have to have that
00:34:52
you have to have enough of an ego to
00:34:56
really ultimately when you do it to
00:34:57
really believe you can change things and
00:34:59
make a difference and oh by the way
00:35:00
you're right you know and but when
00:35:03
you're 10 I think it's just you look at
00:35:05
it and you go wow and it's like the the
00:35:07
biggest job in the country and nowadays
00:35:09
it might be a little bit different maybe
00:35:10
you want to be Tay or something else but
00:35:13
you know I can't sing oh yeah that's
00:35:14
right you know that cuz I've been on
00:35:15
your show but I did have headphones on
00:35:19
and no music just for the record like
00:35:22
it's like the three-way handshake that
00:35:24
was nothing to do with me the French guy
00:35:25
came over the top leway we'll get into
00:35:28
that um okay yeah so you even wrote to
00:35:31
the uh prime minister at the time yeah
00:35:34
yeah and he wrote back and and that was
00:35:35
one of the reasons when I was prime
00:35:37
minister I used to write to every single
00:35:38
young person that wrote to me and the
00:35:40
and the correspondence unit you have
00:35:42
four people in corresponden you four or
00:35:44
five people and they are answering
00:35:46
everything now some of them might be if
00:35:48
there's a generic campaign going on
00:35:50
about climate change or whatever but you
00:35:52
know kids would go to school and they'd
00:35:54
study your know Parliament or they'd
00:35:56
study you know you know Hector's
00:35:58
dolphins or Maui dolphins or whatever
00:36:00
and then I'd get you hundreds of letters
00:36:02
you but every child I'd write back with
00:36:04
this little card they had a picture of
00:36:05
my face on the front of it and I'd write
00:36:08
you know dear Katie hope school's going
00:36:09
well thanks for writing to me you know
00:36:11
Jo and and I honestly it'd be one in the
00:36:13
morning I'd be in my office in
00:36:15
Wellington that every single light would
00:36:17
be out except the ninth floor I don't
00:36:19
trying to make people feel sorry for me
00:36:20
and then I put that little silver
00:36:22
through pin and i' do hundreds of these
00:36:24
play things but I did it because when
00:36:25
rolling wrote back to me I always
00:36:28
thought um it just felt special and I
00:36:30
thought you know um it a different it
00:36:34
was a different world but I you know I
00:36:36
just respected the fact I didn't
00:36:37
obviously it's not my style of politics
00:36:39
but I just respected the fact he' done
00:36:41
it so I did it no one no one sees that
00:36:44
eh no no one sees you sitting in the
00:36:46
office at 1: a.m. no well that that's
00:36:47
the thing that's the thing that they
00:36:49
don't realize I mean you know when you
00:36:50
see these sort of arguments around you
00:36:52
know MP's perks or whatever I mean look
00:36:56
um you can never in those arguments and
00:36:58
and and actually I got the thing from
00:37:01
the um you know they they they they
00:37:03
write you a letter as a former prime
00:37:05
minister and and um and uh uh you know
00:37:08
if you're the spouse of a former prime
00:37:10
minister you have all these entitlements
00:37:12
and you can imagine what would be like
00:37:13
if I took those things over the life is
00:37:15
I never talk them when I was primeone
00:37:17
now so I got the thing yesterday from
00:37:19
the from the interal of fears R me tell
00:37:21
me that one of the they name everyone so
00:37:23
someone cuz they're going to release it
00:37:25
publicly and one person's out at like 30
00:37:27
$6,000 I was $56 to this day I have no
00:37:30
idea what the $56 was but anyway the
00:37:33
point being you know you you know you
00:37:35
can't win those arguments but yeah
00:37:37
people don't realize actually these
00:37:39
people are working ridiculous out cuz
00:37:41
you see the little bit you see you don't
00:37:44
see them going off to every school fear
00:37:46
or calf day or a million different
00:37:49
things that they're required to do it
00:37:50
doesn't matter where you're the most
00:37:51
Junior back bencher they actually work
00:37:53
insane hours really um and it's a little
00:37:56
bit like you know it's become a thing in
00:37:58
the media now to bag the Civil Service
00:38:01
when they go off to some conference
00:38:02
somewhere and they're going business
00:38:04
class apparently well okay fair enough I
00:38:07
suppose if people want to argue that but
00:38:09
seriously we're a $350 billion economy
00:38:13
the government I mean my opinion been
00:38:14
too much or the current government is
00:38:16
doing a good job of trying to reduce it
00:38:18
but we probably spend hundred billion
00:38:19
dollars a year I mean if we can't send
00:38:22
the head of a government agency to a
00:38:24
conference business class we've really
00:38:26
lost the plot I mean the point being
00:38:29
that you know you can make an argument
00:38:30
about whether they should go to a
00:38:32
conference but then I'd make an argument
00:38:33
with you that again you know I'm not
00:38:36
trying to defend the civil service but
00:38:38
but they they have big responsibilities
00:38:39
these are like in the essence very very
00:38:41
big organizations you want them to be
00:38:43
engaged in what's happening around the
00:38:45
world so sometimes we got to get over
00:38:46
ourselves a little bit yeah also um
00:38:49
having our I don't know what the plan's
00:38:50
called but our version of Air Force One
00:38:52
that bre it's embarrassing yeah yeah
00:38:54
well you know the truth is that you no
00:38:57
PR get had the the the you know gumption
00:38:59
or whatever to change and they're going
00:39:01
to have to change cuz the seven part is
00:39:02
a pretty old plane so I suspect that'll
00:39:04
get changed at some point but yeah so um
00:39:07
so you finished school and you becomeing
00:39:09
you you do an accountant degree was that
00:39:11
sort of like a like a planned Pathway to
00:39:13
being prime minister play by my mother
00:39:15
not to be prime minister yeah yeah no I
00:39:19
I had numerous occasions where I'd said
00:39:20
to you I'm going to do this I'm going to
00:39:22
do that I mean like literally my you go
00:39:24
back to school in those days you know
00:39:26
you learned French or German right
00:39:28
that's what well if you didn't do that
00:39:30
you did Commerce basically counting or
00:39:32
whatever right I remember coming home
00:39:34
saying right well I'm going to learn
00:39:35
German and a m and who are very austron
00:39:38
go that's a bloody waste of time I go
00:39:41
yeah okay well maybe if you Tau to me
00:39:42
then I could do both she goes no there's
00:39:44
a waste of time too
00:39:46
so you will do your you you will do your
00:39:49
accounting and she my friends would come
00:39:51
over and get tutoring from my mother in
00:39:54
German she wouldn't she wouldn't teach
00:39:56
me German because she said that is a
00:39:57
complete waste of time you're never
00:39:59
going to use that by the way would have
00:40:00
been quite useful I Anga MK although she
00:40:02
speaks perfect English um but you know
00:40:04
the point being um she said no no no you
00:40:07
you you're going to be a business person
00:40:08
well she always used to say son there
00:40:10
are two types of people in the world
00:40:11
doers and payers you are most definitely
00:40:14
a payer so get a decent education by the
00:40:16
way that means you're going to be an
00:40:17
accountant so every time I came home
00:40:19
with an alternative thing I might do was
00:40:21
say no no no no no you're going to me an
00:40:23
accountant and um and so I didn't even
00:40:26
want to do account and I'm hopeless at
00:40:28
it although I can't read a balance sheet
00:40:29
now but you well know but you did all
00:40:31
right so then um yes so you become an
00:40:33
accountant um then you become a currency
00:40:35
Traer and um yeah there's um if you go
00:40:37
to New Zealand on screen there's a
00:40:38
documentary there called Big dealers
00:40:40
yeah the day in the life of change
00:40:42
dealers this is you me with the glasses
00:40:45
you you were saying before how you've
00:40:46
aged but I re you've aged 12 you had a
00:40:48
glow up what when did the glasses go
00:40:51
yeah where the glasses went well funny
00:40:52
enough actually I had a thing called um
00:40:55
I didn't care about the glasses as in
00:40:56
like then BR Mar it was all too late
00:40:59
anyway but um I didn't care about the
00:41:01
glasses per say but you know if I went
00:41:03
to sport you know like I quite like
00:41:05
sports so if I if I went for a run or I
00:41:07
you know did anything you know played
00:41:08
golf or you it used to annoy me you know
00:41:11
that so so I in the very early days they
00:41:14
did a thing called PRK which I think is
00:41:17
um radial chema tottering but it was the
00:41:19
way they did it before they lasered your
00:41:21
eyes nowadays they're lazy your eyes you
00:41:22
know if you're if you're long-sighted
00:41:24
you know can't see shortsighted can't
00:41:26
see distance you so um and I went in it
00:41:29
was really early on and the guy who was
00:41:32
my um surgeon you know or or the well we
00:41:35
were great friends with them we' gone
00:41:36
through an NA class together he we were
00:41:39
I was in London he was so particular
00:41:41
about he checked out the the serial
00:41:43
number of the machine that they were
00:41:45
doing anyway it was it was a really
00:41:46
amazing they burn off the front of your
00:41:48
eye with the thing goes click click
00:41:49
click click click and you can smell you
00:41:51
can smell a burning smell and that's
00:41:54
actually your your corn or whatever
00:41:56
being burned off oh anyway um the crazy
00:41:59
thing about it was I remember going it
00:42:01
was quite new technology and we went in
00:42:03
and I was booked in at 4 in the
00:42:04
afternoon on a Friday and by then you we
00:42:07
were in London we had two kids the kids
00:42:09
were young like it was you know like any
00:42:11
household with two young children and BR
00:42:13
was sort of at home and it was chaos and
00:42:15
all sort stuff so anyway I go along to
00:42:18
this PRK thing and there's three or four
00:42:20
other you know people who are doing it
00:42:22
and they're all with their families
00:42:24
literally having prayer sessions the
00:42:27
waiting room and I'm there on my own
00:42:30
catching a camp home with some big thing
00:42:31
over my eyes and oh my God but anyway I
00:42:34
had all that done and then the glasses
00:42:36
went so you know yeah um and then so
00:42:39
before you yeah so obviously we're doing
00:42:40
quite well as a currency Trader like in
00:42:42
that documentary which I think is the
00:42:43
mid 80s yeah that was At Elders Merchant
00:42:45
finess so what happened was in ' 84 they
00:42:48
labor came in and longy um appointed
00:42:51
Douglas's Finance Minister and Douglas
00:42:52
did the right thing actually deregulated
00:42:54
New Zealand it was the only way through
00:42:56
and that saw a floating of the exchange
00:42:58
rate and that's when I came in basically
00:43:00
then and then I started with Elders
00:43:03
merch and finance but pretty rapidly
00:43:05
went to Banker trust and I was in Banker
00:43:07
trust for 1995 and it was then that I
00:43:09
realized I kind of ran out of Runway
00:43:11
really and I was going to go to
00:43:13
Singapore and the ultimate they wanted
00:43:15
me to go to New York with bank stru I
00:43:17
ended up going with Merl Lynch and that
00:43:19
was miror I stayed with until I came
00:43:20
back to run so it was you know 20 odd
00:43:23
years of investment banking yeah what
00:43:25
what sort of money were you earning in
00:43:26
the mid 80s you were driving like a nice
00:43:27
uh it looked like a nice BMW for its
00:43:29
time well that was that was the crazy
00:43:31
thing I think in I mean those days in
00:43:33
the early days when it first started
00:43:36
they they there was no one in that
00:43:37
industry so it was like it was the hot
00:43:40
thing to do and and to be fair we had a
00:43:43
pretty good track record and I I kind of
00:43:46
worked for me it just suited my
00:43:47
personality so I think in the I was
00:43:50
getting you know not a long way short of
00:43:52
a million dollars I think I went to
00:43:54
Banker trust for a million dollars a
00:43:56
year and that was like
00:43:58
1989 yeah I know it was crazy I mean we
00:44:01
bought the beach house at
00:44:03
Omaha um we bought we bought it for cash
00:44:07
and it was it was a um we bought the
00:44:10
section and built the house and it was
00:44:11
350,000 the first round we bought it for
00:44:14
cash and we already bought a house in
00:44:17
remuer and all that sort of stuff and
00:44:19
yeah I mean by the time I left I mean it
00:44:21
was the biggest salary drop in history
00:44:23
going from that to being a big Venter in
00:44:25
Parliament yeah what what were you on a
00:44:27
miral check when you when you finished
00:44:29
up oh millions and millions really oh
00:44:31
millions millions and millions yeah so
00:44:34
why why do why do that yeah know I mean
00:44:37
it worked out all right but you you're
00:44:38
rolling the dice in a big way like you
00:44:40
know everyone yeah and I nearly didn't
00:44:42
make it I mean I came in an o02 which
00:44:43
was the worst result Nationals had I'd
00:44:46
only just won the challenge to win
00:44:48
henville which by the way was a lot more
00:44:50
tricky than anyone ever thought because
00:44:53
I well I was so green I thought
00:44:55
challenges happened all the time they
00:44:56
never did the whole thing was you know
00:44:59
um so yeah if you sat there today and
00:45:02
said okay I'm going to map all this out
00:45:04
and you're going to take that risk you
00:45:07
would you would say you've got rocks in
00:45:09
your head like when I went into resign I
00:45:12
went in I think in 2000 something to
00:45:14
tell Dave kamansky that I was going to
00:45:17
at Merill in New York um because I was
00:45:19
quite senior so I wanted to give them
00:45:21
lots of time and it wasn't like I was
00:45:22
going off to Golden sax or something so
00:45:24
I just went and say hey look I'm going
00:45:25
to go back I'm going to retire I'm going
00:45:27
to run for politics you know and I'm
00:45:28
going to retire at the end of 2001 right
00:45:31
and he just looked at me he went John my
00:45:33
boy you are having a midli crisis I'm
00:45:36
going to send you to run Australia I
00:45:38
went well okay um I said well I don't
00:45:40
think I am having a midli crisis but
00:45:41
then they came back about two weeks
00:45:43
later and they said we want you to stay
00:45:49
and we want for the for the whole of the
00:45:51
Investment Bank we want to make you
00:45:52
Global head of sales and that was across
00:45:54
everything there was you know all of the
00:45:56
different businesses and that was a huge
00:45:59
job and and that was a lot of zeros and
00:46:04
um I remember going home to br going
00:46:06
this is absolutely lunacy cuz I would
00:46:08
actually do that job really well and
00:46:12
um but you know I made the decision I
00:46:14
was going to go and I just got to my
00:46:15
head I was going to do it and I did it
00:46:18
but but if you really sat back and
00:46:20
looked at it you would say it was a m it
00:46:22
was a brain expion it was mad it was
00:46:24
totally mad but then you look at at it
00:46:27
today and see maril Lynch eventually
00:46:29
went bus so who knows how much stock I
00:46:30
would have lost and who knows what would
00:46:32
have happened and you never know and
00:46:35
then and then by the way you know I've
00:46:36
got these
00:46:37
Irreplaceable um things and and and and
00:46:41
and I think you know I don't morbid
00:46:43
about these things but I think you know
00:46:44
when they're finally lowering me into
00:46:46
the ground or actually I'm getting
00:46:47
burned but you know the principal the
00:46:48
same um you know when it's all over do
00:46:51
you think I'll really you know look up
00:46:53
and go you know I should have earned
00:46:55
another $20 million with $ million or do
00:46:57
you think I you think I should have done
00:46:59
what I did and um and I'll always
00:47:02
believe I should have done what I did so
00:47:04
it it's like money money's look I was my
00:47:09
mother used to say money doesn't bring
00:47:10
happiness and I used to say sure as hell
00:47:13
helps and and I was a really
00:47:16
economically driven prime minister um
00:47:18
not because despite what a lot of people
00:47:20
might say I wanted to advance the causes
00:47:22
of rich people cuz actually rich people
00:47:24
can look after themselves they don't
00:47:26
need the government they don't need me
00:47:28
but it was because I wanted to make more
00:47:30
people financially independent because
00:47:31
there's nothing worse than actually not
00:47:33
being able to pay the bills and feeling
00:47:35
frightened and you know having a whole
00:47:37
life you know living from paycheck to
00:47:39
paycheck um and you can argue the case
00:47:41
about how you make that happen I've got
00:47:43
a particular economic prescription some
00:47:44
will agree with me some won't um but but
00:47:48
I kind of learned that you know that but
00:47:50
but on the other side of the coin money
00:47:52
is only value in exchange right like
00:47:54
that's it's what you can do with it I
00:47:56
mean the richest guy in the graveyard is
00:47:58
not necessarily the smartest guy right I
00:48:01
think it's about what you did with your
00:48:03
life and and so so me at our at our
00:48:07
stage in life and everything might
00:48:09
change but in our stage in life with the
00:48:11
amount of Financial Resources we've got
00:48:13
more money probably wouldn't make any
00:48:15
difference because I'm not sure I'd do
00:48:17
anything different we like our houses we
00:48:19
have the Hobbies we want we drink the
00:48:21
wine we want you can only eat a couple
00:48:22
of meals a day you know this is just a
00:48:24
limit to what you can do you know when
00:48:26
Mi on the podcast he he said you you
00:48:28
were sort of like um you and brona were
00:48:30
s like tight asses growing up like you
00:48:32
made him job McDonald's yeah well that's
00:48:34
what he says he reckons he was the
00:48:35
poorest little rich kid yeah okay well
00:48:37
good one um yeah but the point was okay
00:48:42
I reckon throwing heaps of money
00:48:44
sometimes at these really young kids I
00:48:46
don't know if that's a great idea you
00:48:48
know like I think that can you you just
00:48:50
asking you know asking for potential
00:48:52
trouble and then secondly um you by the
00:48:55
way life wasn't that bad as first car
00:48:57
was a brand new polo and you know I mean
00:49:00
so he had a pretty nice life um but yeah
00:49:02
we did make him we did make him do that
00:49:04
but to be fair see you can criticize Max
00:49:08
and Stephie for anything you want I mean
00:49:10
all no kids are perfect boy we're not
00:49:12
perfect parents so okay but what you
00:49:16
don't think you can criticize him for is
00:49:18
work ethic like both of them like she's
00:49:20
extremely artistic and doing you know
00:49:22
doing really well and he's really
00:49:24
talented as well but there are many
00:49:26
things but they're not lazy you know
00:49:28
they they they try hard they work hard
00:49:30
they're quite entrepreneurial and so all
00:49:33
you're trying to do is in still in them
00:49:35
that belief that they can do what I said
00:49:37
earlier change their own lives and in
00:49:39
the end they'll decide what they want to
00:49:41
do you're not going to make Stephie some
00:49:44
incredibly financially focused person
00:49:47
she's always going to have that
00:49:49
incredible artistic flare and that's
00:49:50
just her um she's actually more
00:49:52
entrepreneurial than she might want you
00:49:55
to believe and she's she doing really
00:49:56
well um and she's designing jewelry now
00:50:00
and doing you know she's really talented
00:50:03
but um MX has always been much more
00:50:06
business interested but yeah you all
00:50:09
you're trying to do is do that so I mean
00:50:10
to me anyway you know like you make your
00:50:12
choices and don't know what I was saying
00:50:14
but that was that was a choice I made
00:50:16
you know what it worked
00:50:18
out yeah and um um you mi told me like
00:50:21
you are you are you a fan of like manif
00:50:24
manifestation and he he said you used
00:50:26
like talk to the mirror and oh you
00:50:29
would yeah yeah so it's more about Vis
00:50:32
the way I describe would be
00:50:33
visualization so I Reon if if you I I
00:50:36
for when I was leader of the opposition
00:50:38
I was leader of the opposition for I I
00:50:40
was I came in 2006 and won the election
00:50:43
08 so I think M mean certainly that last
00:50:46
year in the 08 year I think I literally
00:50:48
got up every morning went in 191 days
00:50:50
I'll be prime minister and 190 days I'll
00:50:52
be prime minister and and I think if you
00:50:55
can't visualize yourself being there
00:50:58
you'll never get there it's like on a
00:51:00
golf course the greatest PS are not the
00:51:02
technique is no
00:51:04
better nothing's better they just feel
00:51:07
the ball going in the hole they just
00:51:09
think they're going to apparently Trump
00:51:11
I I don't want to bringar Trump's like
00:51:13
that app's annoyingly so but apparently
00:51:16
when he puts go I'm the greatest butter
00:51:18
of all time this is going in the hole
00:51:19
apparently half time does so um I don't
00:51:22
know but to me see if you can't if you
00:51:25
can't
00:51:27
if you can't perceive yourself to be
00:51:29
there you're never going to get there
00:51:31
because you're always going to there's
00:51:33
always going to be someone else you
00:51:34
believe that could be better or take
00:51:36
your place or whatever and I don't know
00:51:37
I mean I don't know enough about
00:51:39
professional sport but the difference
00:51:42
between you know between a Dan Carter
00:51:45
and a whole lot of first fives that
00:51:46
didn't make it or I don't know or you
00:51:48
know Richie mccor and a whole lot of all
00:51:50
black captains that maybe didn't do as
00:51:52
well I mean is it ability I mean maybe I
00:51:54
mean you know but they're all you're
00:51:55
talking about degrees of you know at the
00:51:58
absolute yeah they're right up there
00:52:01
anyway it's more about just they believe
00:52:04
and if you talk to Richie they I think
00:52:05
they got everything from the SAS to all
00:52:07
these sorts of people and after they
00:52:08
lost an' 07 before the 11 campaign they
00:52:11
got all these people need to to role
00:52:13
model and to roleplay all of the
00:52:15
different scenarios including the one
00:52:17
they found themselves in which was you
00:52:19
know they were leading by a point with
00:52:21
you know 10 minutes to go and and and so
00:52:24
and and he reckons that they thrive red
00:52:26
off I don't know just you know I had an
00:52:28
election to win four weeks after that so
00:52:30
I wasn't thriving off that 15 points he
00:52:32
would have been better but anyway I get
00:52:35
it um but yeah to me to me that's a lot
00:52:38
of what what I've been about that I just
00:52:41
and and
00:52:43
and yeah I I know I think I just don't
00:52:45
know I think if you don't have that I
00:52:47
just don't know how you kind of get
00:52:49
there because you know I used to say to
00:52:50
young people all the time I tell you why
00:52:53
most young people don't don't really go
00:52:55
all the way and do everything they
00:52:57
they're capable of doing it's not
00:52:59
because of their own fear of failure you
00:53:01
might think that's the case but it's
00:53:03
actually not that most people can live
00:53:05
with giving a go whatever it might be
00:53:07
running a marathon like you do or
00:53:08
whatever and maybe not making it to the
00:53:10
Finish Line they're worried about what
00:53:12
other people will think about them
00:53:14
failing and so I always used to say them
00:53:16
look don't worry about that okay the
00:53:18
fact actually the very people that
00:53:20
you're worried about maybe your parents
00:53:22
or your friends will be incredibly proud
00:53:24
of you that you actually gave it a go
00:53:26
mostly by the way you learn from Little
00:53:28
failures along the way then you do
00:53:30
actual you know it's like the All Blacks
00:53:31
they Le more when they lose than they
00:53:33
when they win yeah failur a stepping
00:53:35
stone to to success success um and also
00:53:38
as you get older you realize um
00:53:39
everyone's thinking about themselves no
00:53:41
one's actually thinking about you as
00:53:42
much as what you think you are you
00:53:44
exactly you think about a lot more you
00:53:47
you you are convinced that everyone's
00:53:48
going to see it and remember it and and
00:53:50
they just they just don't they just
00:53:52
don't they they take very little of it
00:53:54
in actually um so yeah just you know I
00:53:57
think look you get one shot at this
00:54:00
thing give it everything you got yeah so
00:54:02
and and it worked you became prime
00:54:04
minister that's that's the photo of
00:54:05
the're all in blue there we go look at
00:54:07
that eh yeah you look look at Max like
00:54:09
he's a little boy there and you reflect
00:54:11
on the heart to from the media it was
00:54:13
rough but yeah what what are your
00:54:14
Recollections of that time so I think he
00:54:16
went to short he I think he wore shorts
00:54:19
that
00:54:19
night elction 908 so what happens when
00:54:23
you become so Helen Clark had been prime
00:54:24
minister for three 3
00:54:27
um and then that was the day you became
00:54:28
prime minister do do you know what
00:54:30
you're doing do you have like a a
00:54:32
handbook or no no there's no handbook
00:54:34
although um I remember you know for the
00:54:36
first month of when I was prime minister
00:54:39
people because the bureaucracy will only
00:54:41
call you prime minister even ministers
00:54:43
only call you prime minister I mean like
00:54:46
Wayne as my chief of staff might call me
00:54:49
John for it was just me and him I think
00:54:51
most time he just avoided call me
00:54:53
calling me anything um but in front of
00:54:56
everyone else he'd only call me prime
00:54:57
minister and we we're great mates you
00:54:59
know like um but for the first month or
00:55:02
two months people would go prime
00:55:03
minister I'd look over my shoulder for
00:55:05
alen Clark realize they were talking to
00:55:07
me you know but it's it's an incredible
00:55:09
systemate you're walking in day one I
00:55:12
could you not you have a you have a you
00:55:14
have you have your own bureaucracy when
00:55:16
your Prime school department of prime
00:55:18
ministering cabinet dpmc and my head of
00:55:20
dpmc was these days s Martin wavers and
00:55:24
Martin was fantastic i' been in
00:55:26
Ambassador for us in Japan and various
00:55:28
other places very senior in foreign
00:55:29
affairs had been the Foreign Affairs
00:55:31
advisor to David longy has the most
00:55:33
amazing DAV longy stories fantastic guy
00:55:36
and you literally walk in day one and
00:55:38
they go right well prime minister today
00:55:39
you need to deal with these things it's
00:55:41
like it's like she left the building on
00:55:43
Sunday afternoon and you walked in on
00:55:45
Monday morning it's completely seamless
00:55:47
and that's why we have a neutral Public
00:55:49
Service you know in theory they don't
00:55:51
you wouldn't know who they vote for you
00:55:53
know and and Franklin Martin may have
00:55:54
voted both ways I don't know um that's
00:55:58
not what they're about what they're
00:55:59
about is providing you the best advice
00:56:01
they possibly can as prime minister do
00:56:03
the job as best you can and it's it's
00:56:06
it's brutal in some ways cuz you know
00:56:07
you're literally when you're leaving
00:56:09
you're packing the boxes and you're gone
00:56:11
the next day and and and so much of what
00:56:15
comes with that is the office of that
00:56:17
you know like and and and I think and
00:56:20
it's just is the way it is you know and
00:56:22
and I think go ask crans who probably
00:56:24
tell you you know one day he was prime
00:56:27
minister because just s to resign
00:56:28
obviously and all of a sudden he's in
00:56:30
this big office and there's all these
00:56:31
things around him and now he's leader of
00:56:33
the opposition and he's fighting for
00:56:35
scraps on the last column inch of a of a
00:56:38
story a lot of fun did did you did you
00:56:40
have any um sort of imposter syndrome at
00:56:42
that time or you just didn't have the
00:56:43
time or too much ego ask me oh no look
00:56:49
I look you don't what you I tell you
00:56:52
what's weird when you PR that everyone
00:56:54
assumes you have perfect knowledge they
00:56:55
just assume you have a briefing paper
00:56:57
and you think look sometimes you'd watch
00:56:59
CNN and you'd go oh that's more
00:57:01
interesting than the paper I just got on
00:57:03
that particular topic but um you do you
00:57:06
have to be over everything like it's you
00:57:08
you can't speak to Jack tame or Mike
00:57:10
hosing or John Campell say that's that's
00:57:11
a good question let me get back to you
00:57:13
on there you need to know everything
00:57:14
don't you and that's right so you got to
00:57:16
be an inch deep and a mile wide um which
00:57:19
by the way you pick up when you're there
00:57:20
cuz bio osmosis you're just sitting
00:57:21
around listening to a whole lot of
00:57:23
conversations and that that and you
00:57:25
learn a lot of stuff you you know a
00:57:26
little bit about a lot of stuff um you
00:57:29
don't know a lot about you know lot of
00:57:31
stuff but you know a little bit um I
00:57:33
don't know I don't think I really did I
00:57:35
mean you know the iy got a pretty
00:57:37
healthy yearo so I think I was fine um
00:57:40
but yeah it was one of those things
00:57:42
where um it's it's definitely very
00:57:46
different
00:57:47
and when I when I retired and I became
00:57:50
chairman of A&Z I appointed um Antonio
00:57:52
Watson as as CEO and I said Antonio the
00:57:56
same thing I'd say kind of to anyone
00:57:58
going into a leadership role which is I
00:58:01
just said to her just remember um you
00:58:04
you'll never regret the things you did
00:58:06
you'll regret the things you didn't do
00:58:09
and by the way it'll go a lot faster
00:58:10
than you think now yeah the one or two
00:58:12
things I did that I might have regreted
00:58:14
as well but as a general rule I don't
00:58:16
really regret things what are they what
00:58:18
are the biggest biggest regrets are they
00:58:20
things that you did or things that you
00:58:22
wanted to do and didn't they're probably
00:58:23
they're probably policy things that I
00:58:25
might have wanted to do really I mean I
00:58:27
don't think you're going to change the
00:58:28
personality and stuff um and a lot of me
00:58:31
kiding around stuff you know was good
00:58:33
and bad and and but but it was it was
00:58:36
part of part of uh probably the way I am
00:58:40
I think more than you think it's I I
00:58:42
think you are who you are you can you
00:58:43
can't actually create the like like and
00:58:46
that's what I always say to chrst all
00:58:47
the time I say you know you're not me
00:58:51
and I'm not you you know you do I I
00:58:53
might do one or two things B than you
00:58:54
but you do half a dozen things
00:58:59
and it's
00:59:02
know going get rid ofps cuz they're just
00:59:04
going to test your retina you or your
00:59:06
walking gate you know face on the Fly is
00:59:08
going to be the technology they're going
00:59:10
to use and you're just going to walk
00:59:11
through an airport and you never going
00:59:12
to have a passport why because we have
00:59:14
unique identifiers they're our voice or
00:59:17
they're the way we walk or might be our
00:59:19
eyes or whatever and that's like any
00:59:21
personality they unique identifi so you
00:59:25
can I used to look at previously it's
00:59:27
like I spent lots of time looking at
00:59:28
Helen Clark or Tony BL or lots of
00:59:30
different people and um I tried to Lun
00:59:34
from them but in the end I am who I am
00:59:36
and I just do things my way and and
00:59:40
they're not always perfect or right but
00:59:41
they are what they are and you know they
00:59:44
just vary a bit yeah it's funny just um
00:59:47
picking up on something you said before
00:59:48
about some of the regrets of the the
00:59:49
falling around things what do you mean
00:59:50
like the the modeling for the 2011 World
00:59:53
volunte there was no big deal though was
00:59:55
it no no none of them none of them were
00:59:57
really a major but I mean in hindsight
01:00:00
it was like oh God and we were just
01:00:02
McKing you sort of what but tell what
01:00:04
happens is you're you live in this world
01:00:07
where it's 24/7 scrutiny so You' think
01:00:09
you'd be bright enough to have a brain
01:00:11
engaged that every single thing you do
01:00:12
would be scrutinized right um because
01:00:15
you know that CU that's the world you
01:00:16
live in but you get so comfortable in
01:00:17
that that sometimes you're just kidding
01:00:19
around and you you know you don't mean
01:00:20
anything by it what El there was yeah
01:00:22
there's a photo that we involved of you
01:00:24
eating a hot dog which oh yeah I did
01:00:26
care about that either there was another
01:00:27
one way I got fined by the Press unit
01:00:29
but I mean you know oh my God I gave
01:00:31
away so much money it wasn't fun of you
01:00:33
I me there were just endless things that
01:00:34
happened but but they were all part of
01:00:37
that you they used I tell you what they
01:00:39
used to run a poll and I'm not sure they
01:00:40
do it anymore but it was who who do you
01:00:42
want to babysit your kids and I used to
01:00:44
win that poll hands down and okay you
01:00:49
actually wouldn't want me baby Senor
01:00:50
because I'm pretty useless but but um
01:00:53
but actually I was took that as a good
01:00:56
thing I took that as a thing that people
01:00:58
said he's
01:00:59
relatable cuz cuz you want people saying
01:01:03
that they' trust you with their kids kid
01:01:04
yeah yeah that's right yeah so I
01:01:05
actually took it as a good thing and
01:01:09
um and actually see I find Chris Lux and
01:01:12
I mean I find him um he's a thoroughly
01:01:15
nice really relatable person when you
01:01:17
meet him and I think what'll happen is
01:01:19
the more overtime people get to meet him
01:01:21
more people will realize actually he's
01:01:23
really cool guy and he's not what you
01:01:25
know some Persona that's been created by
01:01:27
various versions of the media or
01:01:29
political opponents I mean you know is
01:01:31
what does and that's the game by the way
01:01:33
I mean it's nothing unique to him it's
01:01:35
it's true of everyone everyone in
01:01:37
politics but the more people get to meet
01:01:39
you the more yeah you got Fighting
01:01:41
Chance and might I like you and V for
01:01:42
you yeah there's a another photo of you
01:01:45
that went viral with um
01:01:47
Harrison oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
01:01:50
that kid yeah that was a classic yeah
01:01:52
yeah you got a good good good chunk of
01:01:54
my cheek
01:01:56
well I always said to Chris LX you're
01:01:57
one screaming baby away from a
01:01:59
nightmare that's a great photo it would
01:02:02
happen all the time on the Campa TR
01:02:04
honestly you go because you're always
01:02:06
constantly in shopping malls and
01:02:07
different things and so young moms all
01:02:10
the time would come up and go oh you
01:02:11
want to have a photo with Billy or
01:02:13
whatever and you pick up Billy and 98%
01:02:16
of you you would just be please don't
01:02:18
cry because if you cry that's going to
01:02:20
be the bit on TV tonight and so many of
01:02:23
them would like they'd goo and they'd
01:02:24
gar and they'd be totally fine everyone
01:02:27
get bit frightened and they would and
01:02:28
then that that would make the use how is
01:02:30
your um how is your mental health over
01:02:32
over this time like I've heard you say
01:02:34
in other interviews where you know the
01:02:36
advice you give to your kids is in
01:02:37
regards to social media is not to read
01:02:39
the comments and stuff but when you when
01:02:40
you're prime minister and everyone's
01:02:41
having to go at you or it seems that way
01:02:44
yeah um yeah like how do you look after
01:02:46
your mental health yeah and it's I wish
01:02:49
I had a better answer than this cuz I
01:02:51
think I think mental health issues are a
01:02:53
massive issue I think you know I
01:02:54
actually went to a lunch with John K and
01:02:56
he's been doing some amazing work in
01:02:57
that space um last week and um you know
01:03:02
I look I think I think everything from
01:03:04
Co to social media has made it worse you
01:03:05
know I think there's an enormous amount
01:03:07
of young people that that believe you
01:03:09
know they they in their mind they'll be
01:03:11
telling themselves are the only person
01:03:13
that's got there but actually what
01:03:14
they've got to take is some comfort from
01:03:15
the fact that you know they're in the
01:03:17
majority probably not the minority um
01:03:20
and there nothing to be ashamed of or
01:03:21
frightened of um but it's really hard to
01:03:23
get help actually man it's really hard
01:03:25
to get and we did lots on Mental Health
01:03:27
in my time too I know people might not
01:03:29
believe it but we spent ages on you know
01:03:32
very focused on youth suicide and
01:03:34
anorexia and all sorts of different
01:03:36
different versions of of mental health
01:03:38
disorders um but I was just really lucky
01:03:42
is something about my
01:03:44
personality that um it just wasn't a
01:03:48
thing that I like I never felt depressed
01:03:50
I never felt um so under the pump that
01:03:54
you know that I was you know I was in
01:03:56
some form or another you know you know
01:03:59
in trouble or or or was causing me any
01:04:01
issues but but but what I did do is what
01:04:05
what I said to ma is I never bothered
01:04:07
reading the the comments because if you
01:04:09
read the comments they largely keyboard
01:04:11
worriers that you know blah and then
01:04:14
secondly um I used to have a once only
01:04:16
policy so I try and read as much as I
01:04:18
possibly could and it become so much you
01:04:20
can't but I try and watch or read
01:04:22
everything once and it was once only
01:04:24
because if it's good and you watch watch
01:04:25
it five times and you go oh that's great
01:04:27
that person really liked me and they
01:04:28
wrote all these really nice things then
01:04:30
you start believing your own PR but if
01:04:34
you read all the really negative things
01:04:36
all the time then you know what's the
01:04:38
point in doing that because it's only
01:04:39
going to kind of depress you and then
01:04:41
I'd also try and take a lens so I could
01:04:44
name for you some journalists who write
01:04:46
in The Herald and some of them are
01:04:48
really rightwing and what they write is
01:04:49
largely very supportive of me and some
01:04:51
or was and some of them it wouldn't
01:04:53
matter what I did you know they wouldn't
01:04:55
have liked what I I did so there's no
01:04:57
point in taking the bad ones and going
01:04:59
oh I'm having a bad day because by the
01:05:00
way they don't like me anyway it's a
01:05:02
signing point they don't agree with my
01:05:03
policies I agree with I'm coming from so
01:05:05
actually it's waste of time right and so
01:05:07
I just ignore them and sometimes these
01:05:09
people would write this stuff and you
01:05:11
you and and and I just go like the loser
01:05:14
is them not me because actually I'm if
01:05:17
they think they're affecting me they're
01:05:18
not CU I'm not even reading it and
01:05:21
sometimes when I was PR people they go I
01:05:23
feel so sorry for you the me
01:05:26
and I'd go oh yeah yeah yeah it's all
01:05:28
good and just carry on now you know yeah
01:05:32
I mean you it's like anyone here I
01:05:33
suppose like you know if if you get cut
01:05:35
you bleed I mean you I understand that
01:05:37
but I just and a lot of it I just took
01:05:40
on the chin see a lot these people have
01:05:41
to fill up colines they have to fill
01:05:43
bulletins they have to do stuff um and
01:05:47
it depended who they were like someone
01:05:48
like John Armstrong who's you know was
01:05:50
the chief um political reporter at the
01:05:53
hero for a long time has died unfort
01:05:56
um had Parkinson's but had a brilliant
01:05:59
brilliant mind he led the he led the
01:06:01
Parliamentary pre scal if you going ask
01:06:03
pet G or Duncan Garner or you know guy
01:06:05
in Espen they'll say when John Armstrong
01:06:07
was at his prime when he wrote things he
01:06:09
was everyone followed him I just found
01:06:12
with someone like John he was very very
01:06:15
balanced so if he liked what I was doing
01:06:17
on that particular issue he'd give me
01:06:19
credit for it if he thought I was on the
01:06:22
wrong place but I was coming from the
01:06:24
right execution whatever he'd give me
01:06:26
some credit for it and if he thought I
01:06:27
was wrong he'd say I was wrong um but at
01:06:29
least it was balanced you know and I and
01:06:31
and so i' follow John because I'd say
01:06:34
okay he's got a point but I I used to
01:06:37
call John every single Friday that I was
01:06:40
prime minister every week and sometimes
01:06:43
twice or three times a week and go hey I
01:06:45
just want to give you a bit of
01:06:46
background of this is why I'm doing what
01:06:48
I'm doing this is the logic of what's
01:06:49
happening so yeah I mean most of the
01:06:51
other stuff I just didn't worry about
01:06:52
it's just I don't know you it's just
01:06:55
nature of the personality it's just not
01:06:57
something that's affected me and it's
01:06:59
not that it's not that yeah exactly it's
01:07:00
not that I'm better than anyone else I'm
01:07:02
definitely not it's just it's never been
01:07:05
a thing with me that and I think it like
01:07:08
even when I was a traitor I was under
01:07:10
you know huge amounts of pressure
01:07:11
running massive amounts of risk it just
01:07:13
I don't know just my personality seems
01:07:15
to feed on it I don't know why that's
01:07:18
lucky so yeah CU I had Simon bridges on
01:07:20
the podcast and he um he was actually
01:07:23
very um vulnerable of him like he said
01:07:25
when he was leader of the opposition
01:07:26
some weeks i''d be flying back to toong
01:07:28
on a Friday night and he' shut his eyes
01:07:30
on the plane and just feel himself
01:07:31
almost crying you know because it would
01:07:33
have been such a rough week um but you
01:07:36
you never sort of felt never had it no
01:07:37
oh that's awesome never had it um what
01:07:39
is that is that a healthy ego or yeah it
01:07:41
must be I don't know over inflated you
01:07:43
go um you but I mean I think I think
01:07:46
look I do things to try and um dstress
01:07:50
stuff as much as I can so within reason
01:07:52
I mean you know like I always did exess
01:07:54
like would when you when you live with
01:07:56
police officers like I did and they're
01:07:58
all young and Incredibly fit it's like
01:08:00
living with personal trainers so you
01:08:02
would go down like we'd run to the gym
01:08:04
in the morning when we're in Wellington
01:08:05
we get up at 5:40 I have a very quick
01:08:08
look at the phone I would have already
01:08:09
read the Dominion Post from the night
01:08:11
before because it gets delivered at
01:08:13
midnight so I'd already read the morning
01:08:14
paper in the evening before I went to
01:08:17
bed I already knew what bad stuff was
01:08:19
coming then I'd run down from Premier
01:08:21
house to the gym and Parliament then
01:08:23
we'd do 40 minutes of boxing and you
01:08:27
know all sorts every day were like
01:08:28
personal trainers and then we'd take the
01:08:30
car back I'd go back have a shower um
01:08:33
I'd make myself a cup of tea um and I'd
01:08:36
walk down get in the car and we'd go go
01:08:38
after work and um so I think things like
01:08:41
exercise for me that's why I love golf
01:08:44
and I've always sort of I mean I didn't
01:08:46
play obviously when I was prime minister
01:08:47
very much and I and all those things but
01:08:50
I think what I love about it is I love
01:08:52
the feeling of I mean firstly golf
01:08:53
courses are generally in beautiful
01:08:55
places anyway and that feeling of having
01:08:57
a great shot I think I'm not a great
01:08:59
fisherman but I think it's like when you
01:09:00
catch the one fish you always want to
01:09:01
come back um for me I think those things
01:09:05
do help my mental health and
01:09:09
um yeah and and you know I drink I I
01:09:13
don't drink to get over stuff I mean I
01:09:16
probably drink more than I'm sure more
01:09:18
than what I tell the doctor
01:09:20
but but but I think reality is I just I
01:09:23
just I actually like it I like having in
01:09:24
class one find relaxing having a glass
01:09:26
of wine but not in a way where I go oh
01:09:28
God I need a drink I just think oh it's
01:09:30
nice you know I'm having you know having
01:09:32
glass of wine and we're having some
01:09:33
cheese or watching dinner or having
01:09:35
dinner or watching news or whatever I
01:09:37
like it but yeah so um February 22nd
01:09:40
2011 what what are your Recollections of
01:09:43
that day yeah so um this was the that
01:09:45
was the second one yeah so the first one
01:09:47
happened overnight um so there's some
01:09:48
property damage but no the first one
01:09:50
happened and I flew down it happened at
01:09:53
about 3:00 or 4: in the morning it was
01:09:54
like near four than three for memory but
01:09:56
anyway very middle of the night and so
01:09:58
it was incredibly lucky because actually
01:09:59
most no one was on the streets so it did
01:10:01
do quite a lot of damage um but no one
01:10:05
was around to to you know get crushed so
01:10:07
on on the the one in February we finally
01:10:11
enough actually we um we were in my
01:10:14
office I I was meeting um Phil o Riley
01:10:16
who head of business New Zealand and um
01:10:20
and we used to meet people from say 12:
01:10:22
to 1 or you know up until 1:00 and then
01:10:24
we' prep for question time and we were
01:10:27
in my office and there was this shaking
01:10:29
and I thought I was yet another
01:10:30
earthquake in Wellington cuz you get
01:10:32
quite a lot of shakes when you're there
01:10:33
and then the Beehive is built on rubber
01:10:35
so it moves so that's why it's category
01:10:37
you can withstand a category 9
01:10:39
earthquake in theory and um and so the
01:10:42
building started moving so sometimes it
01:10:43
moves a bit because it's on that rubber
01:10:45
you know and I thought it was a
01:10:47
reasonable shake and and Wayne came and
01:10:49
open the door and he and I went oh a
01:10:51
little bit of an earthquake goes yeah
01:10:52
but the problem is that was Christ
01:10:53
Church and I oh and so um Phil left and
01:10:58
we knew pretty much early on that was a
01:11:00
massive problem obviously um then we
01:11:02
started getting reports really quickly
01:11:04
you know about what was happening so
01:11:06
yeah I remember flying down we flew down
01:11:09
and initially they flew me around in one
01:11:11
of the Air Force planes and and then I
01:11:14
got on the ground and we got to the um
01:11:16
they had a they set up the emergency
01:11:18
civil defense center at the um at the
01:11:21
art gallery I think it was and the art
01:11:23
Galler is made of see the Ze Ziller and
01:11:26
it's it's it's got massive big glass
01:11:29
windows and and steel sort of you know
01:11:31
thing and the aftershocks were
01:11:34
incredible that's the thing I didn't
01:11:35
really understand about major earthqu
01:11:37
just get aftershocks in fact they go on
01:11:39
for years half time and these things
01:11:41
would Shak and the noise of them shaking
01:11:43
was like the building was going to fall
01:11:45
down the first one that happened I like
01:11:46
really thought I thought and um but
01:11:49
man it shook and
01:11:52
um and then and then I'm the police
01:11:55
Police Commissioner was there and he
01:11:57
said to me was I think it was the
01:11:59
district commander and I said uh the
01:12:02
media were reporting about eight people
01:12:03
were dead or something and he said to me
01:12:07
well it's at least 50 and I said well
01:12:11
are you sure about that and he said he s
01:12:13
to me he said well we've counted 50 body
01:12:16
bags so I said well I'm going to say
01:12:19
that then and he said yep and I went we
01:12:23
went down to latim square that's where
01:12:25
we did all of the big you know we you
01:12:27
went into the newses and did all stuff
01:12:30
and that's that's where they the um they
01:12:32
were setting up all of the the rescue
01:12:34
facilities here and
01:12:37
um yeah I remember I remember the CTV
01:12:39
building actually it was almost an ey
01:12:42
shot if you like it was just just down
01:12:44
there it was on fire and I it was just
01:12:47
really awful really really awful um and
01:12:51
um and it carried on for obviously a
01:12:52
very very long time with all the
01:12:54
aftershocks and different things that
01:12:55
went on but you know I mean I think I
01:12:57
think Jerry brownley actually deserves
01:13:00
huge amount of credit and again I know
01:13:02
that you know politics is just a
01:13:04
polarizes and some people love and some
01:13:07
people hate and some people say you know
01:13:09
he had strong personality and he was
01:13:11
bombastic and all that sort of stuff but
01:13:13
actually he needed that strength of
01:13:15
personality and that Real Love Of Christ
01:13:18
Church to make it you know be sorted and
01:13:21
you can look around the world there are
01:13:22
so many places like New Orleans have
01:13:24
never recovered from major disasters I
01:13:26
mean look at this hurricane Helen that's
01:13:27
just gone through who knows what they
01:13:29
even rebuild half this stuff whereas you
01:13:32
know really Jerry and you know I think
01:13:35
there was a real nucleus of us Bill and
01:13:37
me and a couple of others you know were
01:13:38
very committed to getting cross back on
01:13:40
it feet and I
01:13:41
think it probably is and will be the
01:13:43
most liable city in New Zealand because
01:13:45
you kind of got a chance to rebuild some
01:13:47
great things but yeah it was it was very
01:13:50
very tough yeah is that a hard time as a
01:13:52
prime minister to lead something like
01:13:53
that yeah well you feel enormously for
01:13:56
the families and people feel very
01:13:57
vulnerable and we did we did the thing
01:14:00
that Jinder did for Co which was those
01:14:03
payments where we paid people and
01:14:05
honestly to this day I can walk down the
01:14:07
street in Christ Church and people come
01:14:09
up to me they go mate you saved my
01:14:10
business you know CU people couldn't you
01:14:12
know it's very was we can all imagine it
01:14:14
now because of Co but back then you
01:14:16
couldn't imagine it which was a w Subs
01:14:18
wage sub you couldn't get into work you
01:14:20
couldn't pay people you had you know you
01:14:21
had no income coming in so we just
01:14:23
decided right for 16 weeks with paying
01:14:25
people and we went around treasury
01:14:26
advice we did it overnight it cost a
01:14:28
quar of a billion dollars we did all of
01:14:30
these things which became the blueprint
01:14:32
for the co sort of wage subsidy scheme
01:14:35
um and that that like we we did we did a
01:14:38
lot of really good things there and I
01:14:41
remember at times when the media were
01:14:42
running stories about oh the portable
01:14:44
toilets were in the right place
01:14:45
somewhere or something and it was like
01:14:47
there's so many things going on we've
01:14:48
got the military here I mean places on
01:14:51
sneeze okay yeah I get it but um that's
01:14:53
probably not the big thing but but again
01:14:55
there's no point in losing your rag
01:14:57
about it you basically just got to go
01:14:58
okay is what it is um but yeah there
01:15:01
there were a huge number of people did
01:15:03
remarkable things but oh my goodness
01:15:05
some of the stories and and it was just
01:15:07
some people were just so desperately
01:15:08
unlucky I remember there was a story of
01:15:10
a guy who was walking over the Port
01:15:11
Hills had survived the earthquake and
01:15:13
everything and an Aftershock there was a
01:15:15
boulder came down and killed him well
01:15:16
there were people literally sitting in
01:15:17
the bus and they just got completely
01:15:19
flattened because the the facades of the
01:15:21
building fell on them but then there
01:15:22
were other people who you would for all
01:15:25
money you know would have got killed in
01:15:27
the quake and the thing just missed them
01:15:29
by an inch and they they were fine yeah
01:15:32
so it's terrifying and actually Bob Park
01:15:35
did a very good job he was did very good
01:15:37
communicator yeah he did really well um
01:15:40
yeah you mentioned Co just before
01:15:42
um do you think do you think the um
01:15:45
Jinder and the labor government did a
01:15:47
did a mostly good job or I mean you've
01:15:49
got the UN for advantage of hindsight
01:15:51
but yeah yeah so look on the way in yes
01:15:53
um and I think you know I think I think
01:15:55
she was a unified view that you know we
01:15:57
didn't have a vaccine we didn't have a
01:15:59
response we weren't sure the reports
01:16:01
came from around the world was that this
01:16:03
could be a catastrophic thing that could
01:16:04
wipe people out you have you know
01:16:06
there's great deal of vulnerability in
01:16:07
any Community it was the right thing to
01:16:09
do close New Zealand down um and and
01:16:13
yeah it is so easy in hindsight too and
01:16:16
you know to criticize look a lot of the
01:16:18
communication she did um you know all of
01:16:21
those sorts of things again you know she
01:16:23
did a really good job of that um and I
01:16:25
think the way they did the wage subses
01:16:27
and all all that that that was really
01:16:29
good I I I always see to bro I said look
01:16:33
their challenge won't be how you close
01:16:35
the place down it'll be how you open the
01:16:37
place up it's the pathway out not the
01:16:39
pathway in and I think in the end they
01:16:43
they really struggled and I think they
01:16:44
just frankly if you want me to be honest
01:16:46
I think they listen to Too Much official
01:16:47
advice and they got terrified of the
01:16:50
fact that unfortunately would claim some
01:16:52
lives and it did but it was was going to
01:16:55
be inevitable that ultimately you could
01:16:56
never stop it being in the community and
01:16:59
you know so many and the way that Orland
01:17:01
got treated you know was just some of it
01:17:03
was crazy but anyway you know as I say
01:17:06
you know every prime minister deals with
01:17:08
difficult circumstances and and um that
01:17:10
wouldn't have been easy for them so I'm
01:17:12
not I'm not knocking them and I think
01:17:13
they did a really good job early on I
01:17:15
just think later on it was too much
01:17:17
money spent later on too much stuff that
01:17:19
was wrong yeah I feel like we were sort
01:17:20
of painted into a corner really when we
01:17:22
way um what you why did you why did you
01:17:24
start to stand down so you were almost
01:17:26
at the the end of your third term yeah
01:17:28
well ironically it wasn't cuz I thought
01:17:30
I was going to lose the election it's
01:17:31
cuz I thought I was going to win another
01:17:33
one four turn were you just done were
01:17:35
you exhausted or um I said at the time
01:17:38
you know like there's nothing left and
01:17:40
you know and I think Justa sort of said
01:17:42
the same kind of things but actually
01:17:43
truthfully that probably wasn't quite
01:17:46
right I mean yeah yeah look I was
01:17:48
obviously I'd had 10 years of being
01:17:50
leader eight years of being prime
01:17:51
minister you know you're pretty you know
01:17:53
you've done a lot you know so you pretty
01:17:55
tight but but I if you'd said to me
01:17:58
you've got to carry on for another
01:17:59
couple of years or another 3 years or
01:18:01
whatever it would have been fine my
01:18:03
concern was that eventually
01:18:06
eventually even if they do love you in
01:18:09
some form they fall out of love with you
01:18:11
and it's not that you're bad or wrong or
01:18:14
whatever but the job forces you to make
01:18:17
decisions and making those decisions
01:18:20
there is always a risk that you become
01:18:22
more and you've actually become better
01:18:24
at it but you might become a bit more
01:18:26
belligerent in the way that you think
01:18:28
right secondly you chart a pathway and
01:18:31
changing that pathway is really
01:18:32
difficult because then you got to go
01:18:33
back and say all these other things I
01:18:35
did was wrong and no one really does
01:18:36
that and so that's why there's changes
01:18:39
in government because basically um
01:18:42
people start saying right well they're
01:18:44
just you know they're not listening
01:18:45
anymore or they're on the wrong track or
01:18:46
they need to refresh I'm sick of them
01:18:48
I'm sick of the manism mannerisms or
01:18:50
whatever it is you and so what I did was
01:18:54
I I just thought we need to refresh if
01:18:57
we're going to if we're going to beat
01:18:58
labor we've got to out labor labor by by
01:19:00
basically looking like we're fresh and
01:19:03
we're new and you can't do that if you
01:19:05
don't start at the top and I thought
01:19:07
bill would make an excellent promise and
01:19:08
I think he did and I think you know I
01:19:11
don't sound like Donald Trump but the
01:19:13
simple reality is under an MMP
01:19:15
environment Bill won the election you
01:19:17
pulled a fantastic result he P 45% and
01:19:20
he P an amazing result but what we
01:19:23
always knew was possible that the
01:19:25
Coalition of small parties would get
01:19:26
together and and outgun US happened and
01:19:30
you know Winston might regret that
01:19:32
decision now actually because you know
01:19:33
he didn't seem to end that relationship
01:19:35
with J's government too well but the
01:19:38
reality is that um that that so I think
01:19:41
the strategy worked but but you know oh
01:19:46
well what what was that period like um
01:19:49
yeah I've had heaps of um like all
01:19:51
blacks and um high-profile Sports people
01:19:52
on the podcast and they talk about the
01:19:55
um almost like a drop off a cliff when
01:19:57
down yeah when you go from being in that
01:19:59
sort of um environment to being I
01:20:01
suppose for lack of a bit of term just a
01:20:03
civilian again yeah well nobody yeah
01:20:06
yeah yeah I mean well it is it is very
01:20:08
extreme I mean it is literally Yes Prime
01:20:10
Minister to you know hello John you know
01:20:13
and I mean I could have carried on with
01:20:15
security I violate those sort of things
01:20:18
but I could have but I didn't have to
01:20:20
and I didn't think I needed to so I
01:20:22
didn't worry but early on of course
01:20:23
people thought I honestly you know
01:20:26
people aren't necessar completely in
01:20:27
touch with you so people thought people
01:20:30
still thought I was prime minister and
01:20:31
so um there were a couple times when I
01:20:34
went out there and and all of a sudden I
01:20:36
didn't have security around me and there
01:20:37
were people really having a crack at me
01:20:39
and that was a little bit interesting
01:20:40
not not much I mean but you know there
01:20:42
was a little bit um really like what
01:20:44
sort of things oh I just remember being
01:20:45
in court new place one night fny enough
01:20:47
sephie was in New Zealand working on a
01:20:49
movie and um and I'd taken her out for
01:20:52
dinner and and i' put her in the cab and
01:20:54
then this guy just started going he was
01:20:56
obviously drunk and he was going nuts to
01:20:58
me I was thinking well maybe I got R
01:21:00
security a little bit too early anyway
01:21:01
it was fine um that wouldn't happen very
01:21:06
often they'll ignore you no exactly yeah
01:21:09
um look the weird thing was and I again
01:21:12
you're right because you read all these
01:21:14
things and and the amount of you know
01:21:16
you know depression and and all of these
01:21:18
mental health issues for export stars is
01:21:21
incredible because I mean as you say you
01:21:23
know they go from being you know you
01:21:25
know this period of agulation and you
01:21:27
know being the person to all of a sudden
01:21:29
know what's next to my life I mean for
01:21:31
me because I sort of chose that timing
01:21:34
if you like I didn't feel like that and
01:21:38
I didn't want to get in Bill's way you
01:21:40
know he was being prime minister and I
01:21:42
had to respect that and so you I stayed
01:21:44
as a backbencher and and you know for as
01:21:46
long as it talk to avoid a b elction but
01:21:49
you I kept a really low profile and kept
01:21:51
out of the way um they were nice enough
01:21:53
to give me a great offic and that was
01:21:54
good for a we while um but as soon as I
01:21:57
could I sort of moved on so yeah funny
01:21:59
enough it was just like I'm pretty good
01:22:00
at looking forward and not looking back
01:22:02
like even when I left Merill and you
01:22:04
know not standing yeah I'm I noticed
01:22:06
that I wasn't getting some mess of bonus
01:22:08
or whatever you know little things like
01:22:09
that but then I was mostly I was like
01:22:11
okay and so I've just built a different
01:22:14
life and it's different now and I
01:22:16
remember people used to say to me oh
01:22:17
mate mate you shouldn't have retired the
01:22:18
phone will stop ringing and I used to go
01:22:20
well actually I want the phone to stop
01:22:21
ringing but actually what's ended up
01:22:23
happening is
01:22:25
people have rung that I never thought
01:22:27
would ring like if I really look at I
01:22:29
always thought I was going to be group
01:22:31
chairman of A&Z and chairman of New
01:22:33
Zealand and of course when the change of
01:22:34
government happened obviously Winston
01:22:35
didn't want me to be there on the board
01:22:37
so I was always going to be exited stage
01:22:39
left there and and then probably by the
01:22:42
time I could have been chairman of group
01:22:43
chairman of an yet I realized the work
01:22:44
commitment was so great didn't want to
01:22:46
do that but actually I've ended up in
01:22:48
different places doing different things
01:22:50
and there's just so many organizations
01:22:52
I've ended up being involved with would
01:22:54
just never have dreamed it possible so
01:22:57
yeah I mean it's just been such a ride
01:22:59
it's been such a great ride you know and
01:23:01
I'm not actually a workaholic you know
01:23:03
like I I like working and I like doing
01:23:05
things and I like doing things to get my
01:23:07
brain going but I'm I'm not this crazy
01:23:09
person that wants to die in the office
01:23:10
I'm actually really happy doing you know
01:23:12
other fun things whatever they might be
01:23:14
you know like I like cooking I like
01:23:16
traveling with Briner I like doing lots
01:23:17
of things you know I um uh yeah so so
01:23:21
working is good yeah it's a good thing
01:23:22
to do and I'm interested in and I always
01:23:24
do some work hopefully helping Max or
01:23:26
whatever it might be but but I'm not you
01:23:28
know not I'm not this person that needs
01:23:30
I don't need to I suppose what I say is
01:23:33
I don't need to be validated by the
01:23:35
office I whole because probably in the
01:23:37
commercial sense nothing I'm going to do
01:23:39
is ever going to rank with being prime
01:23:41
minister you either like me or you won't
01:23:43
like me or remember me or won't remember
01:23:46
me as prime minister it won't be that I
01:23:47
was a andz or BHP or wherever company I
01:23:50
might be helping yeah but I mean to to
01:23:52
get through three terms and then you
01:23:54
know probably get elected for a fourth
01:23:56
term it's amazing right cuz you you sort
01:23:58
of how many terms did Helen get was it
01:24:00
three she got three Yeah Yeah by the end
01:24:01
of term three people are turning on you
01:24:03
a bit aren't they yeah yeah well and it
01:24:05
does happen a bit like that and then I
01:24:08
mean I think I think I you know I mean
01:24:11
it's all hindsight you don't know my
01:24:13
guess is I would have pulled about the
01:24:14
number the bill pulled that's what I
01:24:15
think 45% I don't think it would have
01:24:17
been much different and Winston would
01:24:19
never have come with me because if that
01:24:21
wasn't happening so so maybe the result
01:24:23
might have been the same outcome but who
01:24:25
knows maybe I would have got a percent
01:24:27
more and maybe that might change but
01:24:28
there's like so many things maybe I
01:24:29
would have got percent less who knows I
01:24:31
personally thought Bill did really well
01:24:33
and ran a great campaign so that's what
01:24:35
it does but but you left and you're at
01:24:36
peace with your decision totally yeah
01:24:38
never looked back and and funny thing
01:24:40
was Bron is not that political right
01:24:42
like she's a good little cender voter
01:24:44
but she's not she doesn't want to be in
01:24:46
front of the camera doesn't want the
01:24:47
linelight isn't a political activist and
01:24:50
so when I told her in the January of of
01:24:53
2016 I'm going retire at the end of the
01:24:55
year she eventually she saw really and I
01:24:59
went yeah and she said Okay and then
01:25:02
then eventually then she came back and
01:25:03
she said look we've been doing this for
01:25:05
15 years if you think about it um and
01:25:07
said you know me I don't love all this
01:25:09
stuff and if I never saw another camera
01:25:11
again it would be fine by me I don't
01:25:12
need to read about myself on the paper
01:25:14
or you but she said look if you're doing
01:25:17
it because you're worried about me
01:25:18
another three years ain't going to make
01:25:20
any difference so if you want to do it
01:25:21
and you know kind of wi it wasn't quite
01:25:24
true it was a historic fourth ter
01:25:25
because you know Hol did it but she said
01:25:28
if you want to do it go and do it but
01:25:29
she said my only request is if you're
01:25:31
going to leave don't go back so I knew
01:25:34
once I was leaving I was wasn't going
01:25:36
back yeah what sort of impact did it
01:25:38
have on your relationship uh well I
01:25:40
think it's good really because you have
01:25:42
a lot more time I mean like I always say
01:25:43
to people if you've got a bad marriage
01:25:45
and you go into Parliament it's
01:25:46
definitely going to blow up um if you
01:25:48
got a good one it'll probably survive
01:25:50
but it's not easy I mean par is not in
01:25:52
an easy environment I mean she would say
01:25:55
I think Bron was here that she really
01:25:57
you know was basically solo mother for
01:25:59
for for8 years you mean I was away and
01:26:02
busy I actually think I was there a bit
01:26:05
more than no one was going to agree with
01:26:07
me on the same but I think I was there a
01:26:09
bit more than what Max might tell you I
01:26:11
was he' tell you oh you're never there
01:26:13
and you even know what day my birthday
01:26:15
is oh my goodness gra no no that's on on
01:26:18
on the podcast we did he said he sort of
01:26:19
suggested that but he did um yeah it
01:26:22
seems like you did it as as well as what
01:26:24
you could possibly do in managing like
01:26:26
family life and work life but it's a
01:26:27
it's a big job it's look it's and and
01:26:30
and you can't you can't sit there and go
01:26:33
oh I know you're having this crisis
01:26:35
whatever it might be could be economic
01:26:36
crisis political crisis natural disaster
01:26:39
and say oh by the way I'm l a little bit
01:26:40
busy this afternoon because the kids are
01:26:42
doing something you are locked in louder
01:26:45
and actually everybody knows that and
01:26:48
and and it might not even be a crisis
01:26:50
it's just like you know it's it's
01:26:52
Saturday night and you spend been all
01:26:54
day and you've been out doing a variety
01:26:56
of different things around the country
01:26:57
and now you're going to the breast
01:26:58
cancer ball and you're going as the as
01:27:01
the person of you know the the important
01:27:04
person at the there because you're prime
01:27:05
minister and and it's an incredibly
01:27:07
important charity that does great work
01:27:10
um and yeah you might be exhausted and
01:27:13
want to stay home Saturday night and
01:27:15
watch a movie but it doesn't work like
01:27:18
that and everybody understands it and um
01:27:22
I always tried to just to go and say
01:27:24
look I'm just going to there is no point
01:27:26
to me feeling sorry for myself because
01:27:28
no one is going to feel sorry for me nor
01:27:30
should they Because by the way I signed
01:27:32
up to this and um I knew what it was
01:27:35
like and I and and and you might not
01:27:37
know every element but you you pretty
01:27:39
much know what you're doing so um so I
01:27:42
never did I just got on with it and did
01:27:44
it and and tried to enjoy it and make
01:27:45
the most of it and Men you see and
01:27:48
experien some incredible things and and
01:27:51
and some of them are really surprising
01:27:53
you know some of them you expect to be
01:27:54
incredible and some of them you don't
01:27:56
think they will be and they're amazing
01:27:58
and you you know I think it was Helen
01:28:00
Clark who said but I used to say all the
01:28:02
time you see the very best and the worst
01:28:04
of New Zealand but mostly it's the very
01:28:06
best yeah can we draw down on some of
01:28:08
them you've been so generous with your
01:28:10
time have you got a t a bit more yeah
01:28:11
yeah for yeah like um yeah holidaying
01:28:14
with the queen yeah well that was
01:28:16
incredible yeah she and she was a truly
01:28:19
remarkable person and and and it was
01:28:22
kind of special cuz we I think I was the
01:28:24
first austral Asian prime minister that
01:28:25
been asked to go there and and with the
01:28:28
family and the whole thing I mean being
01:28:30
at borrow and and and just she she you
01:28:34
know just the time to spend with her
01:28:36
one-on-one where she would just like I
01:28:38
remember we were at lunch one time and I
01:28:39
always looked at something I said oh
01:28:40
that's really cool it's like a little I
01:28:42
think it like a little salt and paper
01:28:43
shake or something she said oh it was
01:28:44
Queen Victoria and but she just talked
01:28:47
to a million of things she' had every
01:28:49
some of the stories she told me and
01:28:50
experiences she had and I think they
01:28:53
they know that they know there's a bond
01:28:56
of trust um and they're quite open like
01:28:58
she said she would say to me people she
01:29:00
liked and people she didn't like cuz she
01:29:02
she knew I would never repeat it and I
01:29:04
never would until this podcast until
01:29:06
this podcast yeah I know even now I
01:29:09
better not um but yeah she was truly
01:29:12
remarkable um but the whole experience I
01:29:14
mean that was just totally surreal I
01:29:16
mean you know doing doing all of that
01:29:18
and being there um but when you when you
01:29:20
were hanging out together like in a in a
01:29:22
holiday home do what you call her her
01:29:24
majesty or yeah well the the protocol as
01:29:27
they call her her majesty in like even
01:29:29
will and Kate came that weekend and they
01:29:31
would stand up when she came into the
01:29:32
room the first time in the morning and
01:29:34
go your majesty after that
01:29:36
Mom wow what memories yeah I know God
01:29:40
they were amazing yeah they were crazy
01:29:41
yeah no and I mean the room that Max
01:29:43
slept in that every room has um
01:29:46
portraits in Downing Street when you
01:29:48
know when you if you watch Love Actually
01:29:50
I think it's got the you go up in this
01:29:52
big yellow wall and it's got got
01:29:54
portraits of prime Min they always do
01:29:55
them in black and white and then they
01:29:56
sign them they do two copies and one
01:29:59
copy was um is in on that wall and
01:30:02
Downing Street and the other one was at
01:30:04
B moral and he slept in the room under
01:30:06
wison Churchill one that wion Churchill
01:30:09
yeah and U Obama yeah so you play golf
01:30:13
with Obama were you did you have sort of
01:30:15
like a friendship with him no very much
01:30:17
so yeah was there a transactional sort
01:30:18
of thing no no it was it was I think
01:30:20
more than that I think I was trying to
01:30:22
say to people look it sounds a bit weird
01:30:23
and s of you know like I'm turning my
01:30:26
own horn but the reality is if you go to
01:30:28
something like ape there are 20 leaders
01:30:29
10 of them probably don't speak English
01:30:31
five of them you might not want to mix
01:30:32
with them three of them and new so you
01:30:35
know in the end you know like I like
01:30:36
sport he likes sport he likes golf you
01:30:38
know I was around a long time we came in
01:30:40
exactly the same time we're exactly the
01:30:42
same age like there were just a lot of
01:30:44
things that we got got on got had in
01:30:47
common so yeah he was he was great I
01:30:50
mean actually economically wise I didn't
01:30:53
necessarily with you know his policy I'm
01:30:55
much more you know free market and you
01:30:58
know more rightwing and all that sort of
01:30:59
stuff he's but but there were but he but
01:31:03
he was incredible like he was some of
01:31:05
their experiences but in the end when
01:31:07
you when you're on the golf course and
01:31:08
you're talking about what's going
01:31:10
on without being silly that that New
01:31:13
Zealand's just a small version of what
01:31:15
they've got yeah they got different
01:31:16
issues I mean I think actually the
01:31:18
United States at the moment has probably
01:31:19
never been more divided and some of
01:31:20
their issues are much more extreme and
01:31:22
we don't really have those here which is
01:31:24
great like like the gun issues as a
01:31:26
general rule or they focus on abortion
01:31:28
thank goodness it's a sort of settled
01:31:29
issue in New Zealand but but the point
01:31:32
is that outside of that though it's
01:31:34
still you're still dealing with all of
01:31:36
the same kinds of issues really you know
01:31:38
CU at the core of it leadership from a
01:31:41
government point of view whether your
01:31:42
prime minister or president is all about
01:31:44
allocation of resources it's how much
01:31:46
resources do you take off the masses to
01:31:49
pay for the things that you want to
01:31:50
allocate them to and and and whether
01:31:53
it's the vision of policing services or
01:31:55
health care or education whatever
01:31:57
they're all the same issues it doesn't
01:31:58
matter with your country has 350 million
01:32:01
people or 5 million it's the same thing
01:32:03
yeah I understand that the leader of the
01:32:04
Free World and that's you know some
01:32:06
things are you know much more important
01:32:08
from his perspective it was used to make
01:32:10
me laugh when you know the media would
01:32:12
say JY is with other world leaders today
01:32:15
I used to go well okay my her used to go
01:32:17
not quite sure I'm a world leader but
01:32:19
you know but I'm there with some people
01:32:21
you might describe as a world leader but
01:32:23
but yeah but anyway it's um but yeah he
01:32:26
was that was really remarkable and he he
01:32:29
incredible I asked him once actually I
01:32:30
said could you always speak you know
01:32:33
like you speak like that and he said to
01:32:35
me said look um you got to remember
01:32:37
Martin Luther King was wasn't the first
01:32:39
person who could speak like this he said
01:32:41
he was the first person that the
01:32:42
American Media probably really really
01:32:45
you know discovered and and and exposed
01:32:48
if you like and um he said I grew up in
01:32:51
a lot of you know different churches and
01:32:53
things where he I could show you 50
01:32:55
people that speak like that and funny
01:32:56
enough actually I watched the the
01:32:58
Republican convention and quite a bit of
01:33:02
the democratic convention I think it was
01:33:03
at the Democratic Convention I'm going
01:33:05
to get wrong but the guy who spoke he
01:33:08
was the governor for I don't know I'm
01:33:10
going to say North Carolina or one of
01:33:12
those States anyway and if you closed
01:33:15
your eyes you would have sworn to God it
01:33:16
was Obama he was just a fantastic
01:33:19
speaker but you look at Obama he no one
01:33:23
can a prepared speech like him and it's
01:33:25
partly about next time if you're
01:33:27
interested go and watch a YouTube video
01:33:29
of him and when he when he gives a a
01:33:31
statement or says a sentence he doesn't
01:33:35
do what normal people do which is read
01:33:37
in a slow way he doesn't go today the
01:33:39
weather in ockland is wet he goes it's
01:33:41
wet in Oakland today and then he stops
01:33:43
from an interminable period of time it's
01:33:45
about five or six seconds partly because
01:33:48
of the sound bites but partly because of
01:33:50
the way works he said when he gave that
01:33:53
famous speech the Democratic Convention
01:33:55
the very one that really launched him on
01:33:56
the on the stage and he later on became
01:33:59
you know a senator and then you know
01:34:01
then president he said they he said when
01:34:03
I was walking out they told me they're
01:34:05
going to clap like crazy when they do
01:34:07
just keep talking cuz it'll sound even
01:34:09
more impressive when you see it that
01:34:12
he's I mean yeah lots of little he's a
01:34:15
brilliant orator actually William hag
01:34:16
was as well William hag was a was a was
01:34:20
and is a brilliant speaker um different
01:34:23
version different style but but um
01:34:25
brilliant and it's sort of living proof
01:34:27
question time do en count for he used to
01:34:29
monster Tony BL Question Time still lost
01:34:32
action but he was a brilliant speaker
01:34:34
are you still in touch now like do you
01:34:36
exchange te yeah yeah yeah he's in he's
01:34:38
mostly in when he's over he in different
01:34:40
Island from us but yeah yeah I mean not
01:34:42
every day and lots of stuff I probably
01:34:44
see David Cameron more than anyone else
01:34:46
actually done a few weeks ago but yeah
01:34:48
he's great for him David wow yeah um
01:34:51
there's another photo I wanted to run
01:34:52
past you cuz um well I've met you
01:34:55
several times you're just a normalized
01:34:57
man and there's this photo of you and
01:34:58
Sam white loock oh yeah I know yeah I
01:35:00
know it's crazy that picture a yeah is
01:35:02
it what is that an angle thing he's he's
01:35:04
not that big is he he is pretty damn big
01:35:07
um and uh and uh but but yeah it looked
01:35:11
like I was a hobbit a and he looks
01:35:13
colossal and I look like this tiny
01:35:15
little but it must have been I don't
01:35:18
think they did something weird with the
01:35:19
lens I think he literally was the angle
01:35:21
that could I was in the all black
01:35:22
changing room um hell of a nice guy
01:35:25
actually great great all black man he's
01:35:26
just uh more caps than anyone else isn't
01:35:29
it but and that same day that was the oh
01:35:32
threeway handshake by the way that was
01:35:33
not my fault as I said I was actually
01:35:36
going up there to give Richie the cup
01:35:39
and and and I was looking at Richie in
01:35:42
the eyes and so I wasn't looking at
01:35:44
Bernard lap who was the head of you know
01:35:46
the Rugby Football Union and for
01:35:49
whatever reason weirdly he decided he
01:35:51
was going to shake hands at the same
01:35:53
time and so I was looking and I just put
01:35:54
my hand out and as I was doing it
01:35:56
Richie's hand was going to mine but then
01:35:58
I felt this hand on the top and and then
01:36:00
it was like you know you have this sort
01:36:02
of surreal experience where you're not
01:36:04
quite sure what to do whether you should
01:36:06
pull your hand back or keep on going and
01:36:08
I sort of stayed there for a bit and
01:36:10
then I thought this is a bit weird and
01:36:11
you know when I came off the stage I
01:36:13
thought GE I wonder whether anyone would
01:36:16
notice and then I sat W there's probably
01:36:19
about a billion people watch I someone
01:36:21
will probably pick up on it is
01:36:23
embarrassing or funny or oh it was quite
01:36:25
funny but what happened was it didn't
01:36:27
get a lot of coverage cuz everyone was
01:36:28
euphoric about winning the World Cup
01:36:31
until the next day I think the heral or
01:36:33
someone someone ran a story in the paper
01:36:36
where they had a picture like that that
01:36:38
picture there and then a little just a
01:36:40
little story back then it just blw out
01:36:42
and then for the rest of the time I was
01:36:43
prime minister everywhere I went you'd
01:36:46
see two guys and soon as you saw two
01:36:48
guys standing next to each other you
01:36:50
knew what was happening next and they
01:36:52
thought they were so funny cuz they
01:36:53
thought they were the first person to
01:36:54
have ever done it I go mate I know not
01:36:57
my first radio not my first radially on
01:36:59
campus when I used to go on campus You'
01:37:01
always oblig though oh yeah I couldn't
01:37:03
couldn't stop it really um what about
01:37:05
Dom M you know have you ever met M and
01:37:07
you said you famously said rather have
01:37:09
sex with a crayfish which I thought was
01:37:11
a really odd analogy they really sort of
01:37:12
heard that one actually and not
01:37:14
something I've ever envisaged having sex
01:37:16
with a crayfish but um yeah he said but
01:37:19
you used to get a lot of those sort of
01:37:20
people to be honest in the in the world
01:37:23
of s and and in in entertainment they're
01:37:26
more biased towards the left than the
01:37:27
right you I mean you'll you'll get some
01:37:29
people a little different in fact I
01:37:30
watched Dwayne The Rock Johnson or
01:37:33
something on Fox news this morning
01:37:34
talking about how he was he was
01:37:36
rightwing but as a general rule it's not
01:37:38
going to come as shock people that you
01:37:40
know Taylor Swift is is Moly um so you
01:37:43
know so you take it all with a bit of a
01:37:44
grain of salt but um yeah it was weird
01:37:47
because I don't think I'd ever met him
01:37:50
um but yeah it was sort of weird I
01:37:52
remember you know remember there lots of
01:37:53
people I think Elanor K had a real go at
01:37:56
me once and I thought that's weird cuz I
01:37:58
just hosted them for the book prize and
01:38:01
it was sort of odd does it does it sort
01:38:03
of hurt like on a a deeper level does
01:38:06
does it sort of hurt a little bit Yeah
01:38:08
well it's sort of
01:38:10
more it's kind of frustrating because
01:38:13
you'd sort of sit there and go um it
01:38:17
doesn't yeah you you're coming at it
01:38:19
from a you know preconditioned View and
01:38:22
predetermined View and I'm
01:38:26
um am I really the thing that you're
01:38:29
sort of saying like you know we did put
01:38:30
lots of money to the Arts and we did you
01:38:32
know all that sort of stuff and and and
01:38:34
I remember when elen was doing that we
01:38:37
had said all these great things because
01:38:38
she won the book of priz and so we'd put
01:38:40
our statement on stuff and then and then
01:38:43
she had one go and I think she might
01:38:44
have had a second go and when they she
01:38:46
had the second go I a lot of me wanted
01:38:48
to say something and I just B my tongue
01:38:51
and said yeah that's what is so I kind
01:38:54
of get it you know I understand that I
01:38:56
mean you know it sort of is what it is
01:38:58
but you get it you get it both ways I
01:39:00
also I also get a lot of people like you
01:39:02
know people like Richie mcco and Dan
01:39:04
Carter who carried a lot of weight would
01:39:05
come out and say really nice things
01:39:07
about me or you know Kieran Reed a lot
01:39:08
of the All Blacks a lot of the sports
01:39:10
and you know I remember when Michael
01:39:11
Jones and to Gala went out and
01:39:12
campaigned for me in ' 08 in South
01:39:15
Oakland we didn't even know they were
01:39:16
coming they literally came because they
01:39:18
wanted to come and they believed that we
01:39:20
could make a difference for Pacific
01:39:22
people Young people in Southland so you
01:39:25
know you get it both ways yeah but it's
01:39:27
it's just frustrating if you if you know
01:39:29
who you are as a person and um you know
01:39:31
people have sort of misconstrued you or
01:39:33
taking you the wrong way like it's
01:39:34
that's never nice well it also if you
01:39:36
think about the movie industry it's
01:39:38
really interesting but Richard Taylor
01:39:40
who you know r with workshops with with
01:39:42
Peter Jackson but well Peter obviously
01:39:44
you know but um Richard I went to a
01:39:48
lunch he was there um and actually it
01:39:51
was just before just to resign
01:39:53
and Justa came over and said something
01:39:55
to me and when I think back on it I cuz
01:39:58
I was quite surprised when she resigned
01:40:00
I should have picked up on it on
01:40:01
something she said to me if I was
01:40:03
thinking straight I should have picked
01:40:04
up on it what did she say oh she was
01:40:05
just coming over to thank me because I'd
01:40:06
be supported to her on something there
01:40:08
was an internal affairs issue they were
01:40:11
looking at and they'd run all the former
01:40:12
prime ministers for thing but I I'd
01:40:14
obviously said look I you know what
01:40:16
she's saying is right and she needs you
01:40:18
know support for that I and I said I'd
01:40:20
publicly support her if it was required
01:40:23
and she's come over to thank me for it
01:40:24
but in hindsight you know any it's no
01:40:26
big deal but but um but Richard got up
01:40:31
and he he gave the speech where the S of
01:40:34
the speech he just said I'm never going
01:40:36
to forget what you did for you saved
01:40:38
saved the movie industry in New Zealand
01:40:40
you know you funded the hobbits you you
01:40:42
know you've sold the issues you changed
01:40:44
the law you took all the Flack about you
01:40:46
know the definition of a contractor and
01:40:48
blah blah blah blah and none of this
01:40:50
would have happened if you hadn't done
01:40:51
that and that was a long time afterwards
01:40:54
and you think about the audience that he
01:40:56
would have been talking to lots and lots
01:40:58
of times cuz I've heard him say that
01:40:59
before he never forgot and he always
01:41:01
said it even when there were lots of
01:41:03
people who would have fundamentally been
01:41:05
leftwing wouldn't have agreed with it
01:41:06
and so that was what I always thought
01:41:08
was a bit of was that I our government
01:41:11
did do a lot actually to because because
01:41:13
I because I always believed not
01:41:15
everyone's going to want to be an
01:41:16
accountant or a currency Trader or
01:41:18
whatever you know there are lots of
01:41:19
people interested in the Arts and we
01:41:21
want to support that and it wasn't was
01:41:23
just I thought people come from all
01:41:26
different walks of life different Stokes
01:41:28
different interests you know so hey you
01:41:30
know why not why not do that so but I
01:41:33
kind of get it you know like it is what
01:41:35
it is I mean people have views and as
01:41:37
said early I I never used to take things
01:41:39
too personally and I just move on you
01:41:42
know yeah one of the yeah one of the big
01:41:44
things the the ponytail thing oh yeah
01:41:46
what what was was it just I've got
01:41:49
uncles that sort of you used to Pat me
01:41:50
on the is it was it like that
01:41:54
it's not even worth reliving all of it
01:41:56
except to say we were literally doing
01:41:57
what we're doing which was kidding
01:41:58
around um but but if you look at it um
01:42:05
you'd have to say you know yeah I was
01:42:07
doing that and and it was a bit of a
01:42:10
laugh and you know there are some
01:42:12
extenuating circumstances but but if you
01:42:16
think about it I shouldn't have done it
01:42:18
and and and you know it was never meant
01:42:20
to be anything more than that and and
01:42:23
you know the media s of randomly stories
01:42:25
there some stories of me with a couple
01:42:26
of kids but you do that montages yeah
01:42:29
but you do but you know like kids with
01:42:31
ponytails you know like I mean that's
01:42:33
everyone does that Stephie used to WAND
01:42:35
around with the ponytail you know that's
01:42:36
just you just mucking around you you
01:42:38
know so I don't know I mean y it was
01:42:42
what it was but but again it was all
01:42:45
sort of part of part of a personality of
01:42:49
of of just having a bit of a laugh and
01:42:52
not taking myself to too seriously and
01:42:55
and and so as much as I might want to
01:42:57
change that I don't probably want to
01:42:59
change a million different things I did
01:43:01
that were all part of that personality
01:43:04
trait of
01:43:06
being up for a bit of a laugh and being
01:43:09
you know and so that was bad but then
01:43:12
the other things were good and if you
01:43:14
put it all together you just take the
01:43:16
good with the bad and if you start to
01:43:17
overthink everything then you lose the
01:43:18
essence of who you are as a person right
01:43:20
yeah yeah and but but I you know there's
01:43:23
certain times where you think okay well
01:43:25
you know you know you you know you real
01:43:28
you realize you realize if you sat there
01:43:29
in cold light of day you would you
01:43:31
wouldn't have done it but are you proud
01:43:33
of yourself I am yeah there was when
01:43:36
there always say you know the judge of a
01:43:38
good Prime Ministers whether they leave
01:43:39
the country in better shape than they
01:43:41
found it and it's a totally subjective
01:43:43
thing I mean it's like what I think or
01:43:45
you think or somebody else thinks might
01:43:47
be very different to you you know a huge
01:43:50
number of people who listen to your
01:43:51
podcast and some people who listen to go
01:43:53
he sure as hell didn't and some people
01:43:55
say he sure as hell did right yeah there
01:43:57
are some people that will say you
01:43:58
wrecked the country right now yeah it's
01:44:00
what you see what you see it's like
01:44:02
political debates I mean that debate
01:44:04
with Biden and Trump will go down in
01:44:07
history for one of the very few debates
01:44:09
that actually had massive consequences
01:44:12
and that Biden stood down after that
01:44:14
because he was you know struggling and
01:44:17
you became parent for everyone to see it
01:44:19
but actually as a general rule they
01:44:20
don't move anything and the reason is if
01:44:23
I watched that debate yesterday with JD
01:44:25
Vance and talz I think JD Vance gave a
01:44:29
master class and was fantastic why
01:44:30
because I'm rightwing and I want to like
01:44:32
JD Vance and I like the way he said what
01:44:34
he said right but if you are a Democrat
01:44:37
voter you'd say toolz is nice guy and he
01:44:39
did a really good job so you see what
01:44:41
you want to see but I personally think
01:44:43
that we went from having a GFC that we
01:44:46
inherited in 08 to living as the
01:44:48
Rockstar economy and we keept debt under
01:44:51
control and and I look at say the way
01:44:54
debt blew out under the previous labor
01:44:55
government I think generations of new
01:44:57
zealanders are going to be paying for
01:44:59
that and for a very long time I think
01:45:02
we've got a lot to be proud of with our
01:45:03
government and it wasn't just economic I
01:45:05
think we did a lot of things in lots of
01:45:07
different places like I said in the Arts
01:45:09
sector or you know a lot of stuff that
01:45:11
we dealt with build huge amount of
01:45:12
infrastructure we did a lot I just did a
01:45:14
lot of different things and I think we
01:45:16
tried to build National confidence and
01:45:18
National and in a sense that New Zealand
01:45:20
was really doing well and people wanted
01:45:22
to be here which is why migration
01:45:24
numbers turned around and more new
01:45:25
zealanders started coming to or
01:45:27
Australian started coming to New Zealand
01:45:28
and New Zealand is going to Australia so
01:45:30
it's all about ambition so yeah I mean
01:45:34
like I say if it's for every promise
01:45:36
will be the same if you had it all again
01:45:38
would there be some things you do
01:45:40
differently of course you there would be
01:45:41
but you don't live in that perfect world
01:45:43
you live in the real world which is
01:45:45
stuff's getting try at you every five
01:45:47
minutes and Legacy um yeah everyone
01:45:50
thought I wanted the flag as a legacy
01:45:52
which didn't I wanted the flag because I
01:45:55
wanted to build that national identity
01:45:57
that we something we could coal around
01:45:59
that's obviously the silver F hind I
01:46:01
should have just done it I didn't need
01:46:03
actually need 61 Bus I think that the
01:46:05
whole thing was confusing was almost
01:46:07
like an X Factor sort of elimination
01:46:09
exactly he should have just done it um
01:46:10
that's what they did in Canada and they
01:46:12
end up with the bloody great flag which
01:46:13
is the maple um so yeah Legacy I think I
01:46:19
think I think
01:46:21
that there's no question if you put a a
01:46:24
gun to someone's head and said one word
01:46:28
you know J ke's government I think
01:46:30
people would say economic right like we
01:46:32
were an economically focused government
01:46:34
I'm kind of an economically focused guy
01:46:36
and people elected us because they
01:46:38
thought we'd be good with money the more
01:46:39
labor went on about me being some rich
01:46:41
fat cat the more the punter just heard I
01:46:44
quite good with money from s so
01:46:45
hopefully be good with us right so you
01:46:47
got to accept all that so for me I think
01:46:49
the Legacy was that we were just a much
01:46:51
stronger vibrant economy is at the end
01:46:54
of all that and um so yeah I'm I'm
01:46:59
personally really proud of that and I
01:47:00
think I think we had a great team um and
01:47:04
and we did a lot of good things and um
01:47:08
and so yeah I as say you know like I
01:47:11
might change the old thing but it
01:47:12
wouldn't change much well I asked um
01:47:14
chat
01:47:15
GP
01:47:17
say well we've he what you think see
01:47:20
what
01:47:23
John ke is often regarded as a
01:47:24
successful and popular prime minister of
01:47:26
New Zealand though opinions about his
01:47:28
leadership are mixed opin on one's
01:47:29
political perspective yeah um his tenure
01:47:32
also had significant social and economic
01:47:34
challenges that continue to shape
01:47:36
debates about his legacy yeah pretty
01:47:39
good dollar each way he pretty good hey
01:47:42
um this has been fun good glad you enjoy
01:47:44
it i' I've really really enjoyed it I'm
01:47:45
um so grateful for you being so generous
01:47:48
with your time Y no problems I hope I
01:47:50
hope some of your listeners get through
01:47:51
the whole time I don't know be a long
01:47:54
card trop if they do but anyway oh well
01:47:56
that's what I like about long form um
01:47:58
podcasts you know you can listen till
01:48:00
you get bored but I've got no doubt that
01:48:01
you know and people probably come in and
01:48:03
out of themp what they do I mean
01:48:06
podcasts I mean podcasts I think are
01:48:07
amazing like I mean Mex listens to lots
01:48:10
of podcasts more than I do I mean I
01:48:11
listen to some um but yeah I find them I
01:48:16
you hopefully at the end of it you have
01:48:19
a sense of what makes the person tick
01:48:21
yeah and that's all you're really trying
01:48:22
to do
01:48:23
and I think if you can do that then then
01:48:25
you come away a rich person CU you
01:48:27
understand at least their perspective
01:48:29
and actually the fact that you might not
01:48:30
agree with that perspective is no bad
01:48:32
thing it's just your view of the world
01:48:34
and we're all different and that's
01:48:36
that's what makes makes us a great you
01:48:38
know country and Society yeah well I've
01:48:40
really enjoyed that I think there's a
01:48:41
lot of insights into you as a you know a
01:48:43
person politics aside yeah yeah all
01:48:46
right Sir John K thank you so much
01:48:51
thanks for
