00:00:00
Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:03
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:05
there's a top performance in New
00:00:06
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:08
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:12
hole in one in to
00:00:16
Finn. How's the performance going? Top
00:00:18
tier. Nice. This is our generate room.
00:00:20
In here, you'll find our top performers
00:00:22
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:00:24
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:00:26
Maximize. Generate. Putting performance
00:00:29
first,
00:00:36
Mr. Okconor. Or can I call you Tim? You
00:00:38
can call me whatever you like. I'm sure
00:00:39
you will, Dom. Sir, Tim Oconor, welcome
00:00:42
to my podcast. Thank you. Thanks for
00:00:44
having me, mate. I I really appreciate
00:00:45
you being here today. This is only your
00:00:47
second ever podcast experience. It is.
00:00:49
I'm not a podcaster. Right. I I'm
00:00:52
surprised about that because I had so
00:00:53
many um requests from people in the
00:00:55
leadup to this suggesting that you'd be
00:00:56
a good guest. would like to know the
00:00:58
names of those people. I will send you
00:01:00
the names at the end. Um the first thing
00:01:03
I wanted to know is um uh when when you
00:01:06
finish um the end of a school day, do
00:01:08
you go home and you just stink of links
00:01:10
Africa?
00:01:11
That's a good question. Or sort of wet
00:01:14
wool. Wet wool. Really? Well, don't you
00:01:17
remember those days of wet wool jerseys
00:01:19
in the in the in the in classrooms on a
00:01:21
on a day like this? Yes. So you you are
00:01:24
the um the headmaster at Oakland Grammar
00:01:27
School. It's a job you've had 11 years
00:01:29
now. No, my 13th year. 13th year. Um and
00:01:33
you're the only the 11th person to have
00:01:35
that job. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy when
00:01:38
you think about how how long the school
00:01:40
has been around and how few um
00:01:42
headmasters there have been. 156. This
00:01:44
is our 156th year.
00:01:47
Um but I think yeah the the the tenure
00:01:50
of headmasters gives stability to a a
00:01:54
school environment that is you know very
00:01:56
unique in its style. I think grammar is
00:01:59
an outlier really in in education um in
00:02:01
this country today. So I think the the
00:02:06
uh sense of responsibility
00:02:09
um is is sort of seen in the length of
00:02:11
10 years. I mean John Morris was 20
00:02:13
years, DJ Graham was 20 years. So that
00:02:16
sort of length of tenure has been a
00:02:18
pretty stable force in the school. So if
00:02:20
you accept that job and you do say less
00:02:22
than 10 years, do people consider you a
00:02:24
bit flaky?
00:02:26
I mean, no stickability that guy. You
00:02:28
probably don't want to be the the um
00:02:29
shortest serving headmaster as your sort
00:02:32
of uh legacy. So you're um underneath
00:02:35
you at Oakland Grammar, you've um 250
00:02:38
staff and how many boys? About 3,000. Uh
00:02:41
2760.
00:02:42
Yep. So yep. heading that way sadly. A
00:02:45
lot of people, a lot of staff. Yeah.
00:02:47
Yeah. Yeah. And um across both a
00:02:50
Mountain Road campus, but we've also got
00:02:52
a lodge um in Ouni and then of course
00:02:54
we've got boarding houses. And so those
00:02:56
things are all make up the you know the
00:02:58
fabric of grammar.
00:03:00
I I mentioned on Instagram that you were
00:03:02
coming in and uh there was just an
00:03:04
unprecedented amount of of questions.
00:03:06
I'd say the only the only guest that's
00:03:07
had more um listener based questions
00:03:10
from Instagram was probably Dan Hooker
00:03:12
from the UFC and you're number two. Um a
00:03:15
lot of lot of trolling going on like um
00:03:17
my friend Bridget she said um can my son
00:03:20
go to grammar in 2028 even though we
00:03:21
don't live in zone
00:03:24
you get a no. Yeah. Do do you get people
00:03:27
trying to like bribe you or offer
00:03:28
donations to the school? No. Not no
00:03:32
casually. they probably don't get that
00:03:34
close to me in terms of um enrollment
00:03:36
protocols. Um I'm sure our director of
00:03:39
enrollment deals with well she does she
00:03:41
deals with a myriad of uh questions and
00:03:43
challenges and things that for people um
00:03:46
want to access the grammar style of
00:03:49
education. So yeah, I think I mean it's
00:03:51
tough it's it's tough for people who
00:03:54
want a specific style of education and
00:03:56
the zoning structure in this in Oakland
00:03:59
um restricts them from doing so. M
00:04:02
um there were a lot of comments on
00:04:04
Instagram as well which I'm I'm guessing
00:04:05
is maybe students trolling. Um someone
00:04:08
said can you can you ask him uh what's 2
00:04:10
plus two? What's that? That's probably
00:04:13
uh someone from 7A or I'd say someone
00:04:16
someone like that. And then the next
00:04:18
part of that was um now ask him what's
00:04:20
two skin plus two skin.
00:04:24
Sounds like a boy's sort of boy school
00:04:26
sort of qu actually that sounds like
00:04:28
probably someone from another boy school
00:04:29
not ours. All right. Is Is this the sort
00:04:31
of crap you have to put up with on a
00:04:32
daily basis? Like just sort of pranks
00:04:34
and trolling and No. Just stupidness
00:04:36
from No, no, no. I mean, we're It's a
00:04:41
fantastic environment to be part of.
00:04:42
It's it's energizing, you know, being
00:04:44
part of a school like Grammar keeps you
00:04:46
young. Um, you know, we start every day
00:04:48
with assembly and um so I get to sort of
00:04:51
speak to the boys on a daily basis. I
00:04:53
get to sense the vibe of the school, you
00:04:55
know, every morning. Um, so no, like
00:04:59
we've we've just had a big exchange and
00:05:01
we've released the entire school out to
00:05:03
watch um from about 12:30 um through to
00:05:07
2:00 and you know they're just fully
00:05:09
engaged. There's not a there's not an
00:05:11
issue sort of around the campus um
00:05:13
because the boys are sort of bought into
00:05:15
the culture and they want to be part of
00:05:17
um the environment. Yeah, that's cool.
00:05:20
Yeah, it's it's um yeah, it says a lot
00:05:22
about the culture, I suppose, and the
00:05:24
history that's been created over, you
00:05:26
know, well, over 150 years. Um there
00:05:29
were lots of comments on Instagram as
00:05:30
well like this. Our son started this
00:05:31
year and Tim's a legend. Good guy with a
00:05:33
great sense of humor. A lot of people
00:05:35
say you got a great sense of humor and I
00:05:36
think you probably need to and yeah, you
00:05:38
want to have a sense of humor. Um great
00:05:40
sense of humor. Um so yeah, how do you
00:05:42
manage um uh being respected um and
00:05:45
being liked alongside making tough
00:05:48
decisions?
00:05:49
Um I you just got to do what you think's
00:05:52
right, what you believe in. And um I
00:05:55
think that grammar helps that because it
00:05:58
is a really structured environment. We
00:06:00
say um who we are as a school. We make
00:06:03
that really clear. Um so there's no
00:06:05
surprises to anyone who who joins the
00:06:07
environment. And then when it's then you
00:06:10
make decisions that are actually
00:06:11
appropriate to the to the situation. And
00:06:14
so here we are we're making um a hell of
00:06:18
a lot of decisions on a daily basis that
00:06:19
are sort of guiding the school and
00:06:21
treating people um with fairness and and
00:06:24
you know following the principles of
00:06:25
natural justice but also you know at the
00:06:28
same time being able to have a laugh at
00:06:29
you know there are there are just things
00:06:31
that boys do on a daily basis that you
00:06:33
go yeah let's we can just laugh at that
00:06:35
there's there's questions they ask you
00:06:37
you know on a daily basis that are also
00:06:39
like yeah good on you good try um and
00:06:43
get A with you boys. Oh yeah, totally.
00:06:46
But I think that builds that's what
00:06:49
builds a relationship with them. Um I
00:06:52
think uh like being ahead of a school.
00:06:58
My view is you win so much through your
00:07:01
presence. That's just by being there.
00:07:03
You know, I think you can rise to
00:07:06
positions of leadership and then um be
00:07:10
readily officebound. And if as soon as
00:07:12
you're office bound, then the boys just
00:07:15
lose touch with who you are. And if they
00:07:18
don't have a sense that you believe in
00:07:19
them and that you believe in the
00:07:21
direction of the school and that you're
00:07:22
as passionate about their school as they
00:07:24
are, then you lose them. So it's I just
00:07:29
think being present means that you can
00:07:32
you might have uh a presence on stage
00:07:35
which is very formal on a daily basis
00:07:37
you know with the gown and the school
00:07:39
prayer and all of those things but then
00:07:41
when you're walking the grounds at
00:07:42
lunchtime you're interacting with boys
00:07:44
in a totally different way to what you
00:07:45
are when you're in a formal setting.
00:07:48
Important for them to see you in both.
00:07:51
Yeah. But it must be
00:07:53
I don't know. It must be difficult to um
00:07:55
keep control of that many boys and and
00:07:57
do it um with a smile on your face and
00:07:59
be able to have a wink with them and not
00:08:01
just um you know not just rule with an
00:08:03
iron fist or you know be be that grumpy
00:08:06
firm leader. Yeah, it's pretty rare
00:08:08
where is that just not the way anymore?
00:08:10
Not the way to communicate. No. No. I
00:08:13
think um to create an environment um
00:08:16
with teenagers today, they've got very
00:08:18
good detectors on them as to what is
00:08:20
[ __ ] and what isn't. So if you fudge
00:08:23
anything with them, they they can they
00:08:25
will pick up on it pretty quickly. So
00:08:27
the critical thing from from my point of
00:08:29
view is you actually you got to be
00:08:31
comfortable in who you are and then
00:08:33
present that to them and they need to
00:08:37
understand
00:08:38
uh what the school environment is and
00:08:40
buy into it. If we we really well while
00:08:44
while there are discipline structures in
00:08:46
place we don't for 98
00:08:49
99% of the boys we're not actually
00:08:52
ruling them they're ruling themselves
00:08:55
because they know what the standards
00:08:56
are. We tell them what the standards
00:08:57
are. We tell them why they make
00:08:59
sacrifices to meet those standards and
00:09:01
what the advantages will be if they do
00:09:03
that in a consistent basis. And then
00:09:05
typically most of them go well actually
00:09:07
that's reasonable and I want to be part
00:09:09
of it. They're like if you use socks for
00:09:11
example, you know, I keep saying to the
00:09:15
boys, it's, you know, like when you walk
00:09:16
around, when you leave our gates at the
00:09:18
end of the day, you know, I can't chase
00:09:20
after every single one of you, um, even
00:09:22
though I'd like to some days, um, that,
00:09:25
you know, when you walk through New
00:09:26
Market, you make a decision about the
00:09:29
length of your socks. And if you have
00:09:30
your socks up and they're at the, you
00:09:32
know, top of your calf muscles, if
00:09:33
you've got calf muscles, then um, then
00:09:36
what you're doing is showing pride in
00:09:37
your school. you saying, "I actually
00:09:38
belong to this place and I like it."
00:09:39
Because you think about people who are
00:09:41
well-dressed, you know, who you see
00:09:44
around you. They make an impression on
00:09:45
you. So, why don't you show that you
00:09:47
represent Oakland Grammar School and
00:09:48
you're proud of your school, you know?
00:09:50
Why do why do um why do kids from other
00:09:52
schools walk around with their socks
00:09:54
right around their ankles? Like, do they
00:09:55
not like their school? Do they actually
00:09:57
want to disrespect it? So, we sort of
00:10:00
talk to them in that sort of a manner.
00:10:04
I suppose if you have your socks down,
00:10:05
I'd like to use that as an example.
00:10:06
Well, it's like an act of sort of, you
00:10:07
know, anarchy or rebellion in a way. And
00:10:10
like on the big scheme of things and
00:10:11
where societyy's at at the moment, that
00:10:12
that it's not too bad on the big scheme
00:10:14
of things. But sweat the small stuff,
00:10:16
right? Sweet the small stuff. You don't
00:10:17
have to worry about the big stuff. And
00:10:19
if I was driving along the street and
00:10:20
there was a boy with the socks down, I'd
00:10:22
pull over and say to him, "Do you not
00:10:23
actually like our school?" Um, have you
00:10:26
done that? Oh, absolutely. I've driven
00:10:28
up on driven up on foot paths alongside
00:10:30
them um to to sort of ask the question
00:10:33
and you get that little rice smile and
00:10:34
they go sort of you know seek
00:10:37
forgiveness and that's that's that's
00:10:38
that's okay. You're allowed to make a
00:10:40
mistake just don't repeat it. What what
00:10:41
do they call you is they say sorry sir.
00:10:44
Yep. Sir's typical just everyday
00:10:46
language sir miss etc. Everyday language
00:10:49
of grammar. What are the other hard and
00:10:50
fast rules of grammar? Socks are they
00:10:53
they address the staff as sir or ma'am.
00:10:55
They stand up when you go into a
00:10:56
classroom. Yeah. All of those basics,
00:10:58
those things that when you were at
00:11:00
school, when I was at school, you know,
00:11:02
Palmy boy style, they were they are all
00:11:04
very much um part of grammar today. Um
00:11:07
and grammar is a surname environment.
00:11:10
So, we only use surnames. We don't use
00:11:12
first names. And I think Scotty
00:11:14
Stevenson was spoken at a Lever's dinner
00:11:16
recently and said to the boys, you know,
00:11:18
congratulations today. You get your
00:11:19
first name back.
00:11:22
Um but it's just that's all part of the
00:11:24
formality of the place and there's sort
00:11:25
of protocols and rituals that actually
00:11:28
bring in it's like sitting in assembly
00:11:30
and you sit in your stream. So you sit
00:11:32
in your form class, you sit in the same
00:11:33
place in assembly, you're sitting on
00:11:35
hall forms that date back to 1880. So
00:11:38
you know and we talk to them about the
00:11:39
fact that you know think about the
00:11:41
people who have been here before you
00:11:42
have sat on the same hall forms and
00:11:43
where's your responsibility lie to those
00:11:46
people?
00:11:48
Yeah, there must be some crazy names on
00:11:50
the honors board as well. I had um just
00:11:52
last week I recorded a podcast here with
00:11:54
Grant Fox and he told a story about um
00:11:57
um becoming like best mates with Martin
00:11:59
Crowe uh in the the first term of their
00:12:01
third form at um Oakland Grammar. Two of
00:12:03
the greatest New Zealand sports people
00:12:04
in different coats of all time. Yeah.
00:12:06
Yeah. There are some drop some names.
00:12:09
Certainly there's been like 50 All
00:12:10
Blacks or something. E we're in our 54th
00:12:12
All Black. So Sean Stevenson was the
00:12:14
last um All Black um to be named and um
00:12:18
and look and he's still in touch with
00:12:20
the school. is uh Graeme Thornnewood um
00:12:22
is is in touch pretty regularly. There's
00:12:25
a a lot of those um guys who have come
00:12:27
through grammar um stay totally
00:12:29
connected. Um Tom Schneckenberg you know
00:12:32
some names from from the past those sort
00:12:34
of yeah those sort of people Peter Sir
00:12:36
Peter Gluckman um Sir Kenneth Keith um
00:12:39
Sir Ron Carter you know the the list Sir
00:12:42
Edund Hillary um so the the list sort of
00:12:45
goes on with those who are connected to
00:12:47
to the grammar environment. That's
00:12:49
incredible. Um,
00:12:52
oh, why do you call them forms and not
00:12:54
years? By the way, as a 52-y old man, I
00:12:57
find that particularly handy because I
00:12:58
can never get my head around the the
00:12:59
years. That's exactly why. Why? Like,
00:13:02
why do we change things for sake of
00:13:03
changing them when they work? So, form
00:13:05
three to form seven works. A a grade
00:13:09
through to an E-grade on your report
00:13:10
works. A percentage on your report
00:13:13
works. So onepage reports much better
00:13:15
than having to scroll through like
00:13:17
parents have to, you know, 50 pages on
00:13:19
their their child's report with all
00:13:20
these sort of criteria and categories
00:13:22
that no one really wants to read. Give a
00:13:25
comment, give a grade, give a
00:13:26
percentage, what's your place in class,
00:13:28
how you progressing. Um those things are
00:13:31
all look they're basic to education. So
00:13:33
why have we why have we changed them?
00:13:35
That's grammar just hasn't. Yeah. So
00:13:38
this would have been before your time.
00:13:40
Yeah. Yeah. DJ Graeme time. Could does
00:13:42
the Ministry of Educ Education Do they
00:13:44
get annoyed by you? Oh, I think they've
00:13:47
given up on us. Yeah. You're you're like
00:13:50
you're big enough to sort of march to
00:13:51
the beat of your own drum in a way,
00:13:52
aren't you? I think we sort of have an
00:13:54
agreement with the Ministry of Education
00:13:56
if if you leave us alone, we'll leave
00:13:58
you alone. Um and hopefully hopefully
00:14:02
some people in the Ministry of Education
00:14:04
look at what we do and go, you know,
00:14:06
it's a high functioning school and so
00:14:07
why do we need to interfere? We we look
00:14:09
we would ask for help if we needed it
00:14:11
from them but typically the Ministry of
00:14:13
Education create more um hassles for us.
00:14:16
I don't think they actually support
00:14:17
schools um at all very well. They're
00:14:19
just pain in the neck. Would you be keen
00:14:21
to get into politics one day? No.
00:14:26
I could see you as Minister of Education
00:14:28
though. Like I I could see you making a
00:14:29
tangible difference with your
00:14:30
experience. Yeah.
00:14:32
I'd like to be Minister of Education,
00:14:33
but I don't want to actually deal with
00:14:34
all that nonsense in the house where
00:14:36
it's just sort of full of total
00:14:38
negativity and um you know and and sort
00:14:41
of gameplay. Whereas if we just get on
00:14:43
with doing the job. Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:45
But it doesn't seem that that's part of
00:14:47
politics really. So I don't I don't
00:14:49
think I'd make a very good politician.
00:14:50
I'd probably go redhead.
00:14:53
So um what's an average day look like
00:14:54
for you? Are you are you putting out
00:14:57
fires all over the place? No. No, not
00:15:00
really. No. Uh, I've got a team of
00:15:02
fantastic people who do a whole pile of
00:15:04
the the the day-to-day sort of
00:15:06
logistics. So, um, I'm I'm in a pretty
00:15:10
privileged position where those people
00:15:11
are coming and going from from from my
00:15:13
office, you know, checking in on on
00:15:15
where we're at on something or if does
00:15:16
it do do they need to steer on
00:15:18
something? Um, but no, my so in my day
00:15:22
would be I'm I'm a sort of get up early.
00:15:25
So to 5:00 I get up and exercise and um
00:15:30
do that each morning of the week and
00:15:32
then sort of try and have breakfast. If
00:15:36
my wife's listening to this, she'll go,
00:15:37
"This is a load of nonsense." Try and
00:15:39
have cup of coffee with my wife uh with
00:15:41
an
00:15:43
um and then I sort of um try to be at
00:15:46
work by 7 and then I sort of chew
00:15:50
through whatever needs to be um done
00:15:52
prior to assembly. So, I'd sort of
00:15:54
normally uh prepared everything for
00:15:57
assembly the day prior, but then things
00:15:59
sort of crop up overnight. So, I'd
00:16:01
finish off preparing for assembly, run
00:16:04
assembly, um and then um run into
00:16:07
whatever the day is. Um, and then by
00:16:12
this time of the day, typically there'd
00:16:15
be subcommittee meetings for the board
00:16:17
or um heading into events or um this is
00:16:21
actually my only um my only afternoon
00:16:24
where I didn't have something. So, it
00:16:25
sort of worked pretty well to be in
00:16:27
here. So, yeah, it could be they're
00:16:28
quite they're quite long days, but there
00:16:30
are days where you you're performing
00:16:33
different functions and different um so
00:16:36
it can be that you're speaking at an
00:16:37
event. um at at night or speaking at a
00:16:40
I've got a there's a prize giving a
00:16:42
rowing prize giving tomorrow. So there
00:16:44
those sort of things. So you just the in
00:16:47
an environment like ours the presence of
00:16:50
the headmaster whether it's me or
00:16:52
whether it's the previous or the next
00:16:53
headmaster is sort of critical to show
00:16:56
that you're endorsing what is occurring.
00:16:58
Um because you're relying on so many
00:17:01
different um volunteers. relying on
00:17:04
teachers to to give huge amount of their
00:17:06
own time to coach to manage to lead
00:17:09
various activities in the school. So the
00:17:11
least you can do is actually be there to
00:17:12
support them. Do you outsource any of
00:17:15
that like coaching from parents or
00:17:18
largely our coaching is um by teachers?
00:17:21
Yeah. Um uh we we do have an expectation
00:17:24
that teachers are involved with
00:17:26
something in winter and something in
00:17:27
summer and they do you know they have a
00:17:29
fantastic sort of um team of staff who
00:17:32
who do all of those things and as you
00:17:34
know if if something is happening well
00:17:37
in a school then there's someone who's
00:17:38
passionate um who's leading it whether
00:17:40
it's you know weightlifting or rugby
00:17:43
program or you know badminton program or
00:17:45
whatever it is there's there's someone
00:17:47
who's volunteering their time to lead it
00:17:50
where we have gaps we we pull in
00:17:52
external coaches to fill those gaps and
00:17:55
or if there's sort of real specialist
00:17:56
need things like trying to access
00:18:00
someone with rowing expertise is is I
00:18:03
think any school who who runs a rowing
00:18:05
program would be understand exactly what
00:18:07
I'm talking about to find someone who
00:18:09
can actually lead and understand that
00:18:11
sort of uh sport is is critical. So
00:18:14
where you have to employ someone or get
00:18:16
a a volunteer from outside of the
00:18:18
school, you do. Right.
00:18:20
Hey, there's so many more questions
00:18:21
about um about grammar and about teenage
00:18:24
boys and the day-to-day. I mean, yeah,
00:18:26
no one knows more about I guess teenage
00:18:28
boys and education in New Zealand than
00:18:30
you with your with your history, which
00:18:32
we'll get into. Um first of all, who
00:18:34
were your mentors growing up and what
00:18:37
lessons in particular stuck with you? Um
00:18:41
I'm still growing up. I think I've been
00:18:43
crying up through my entire teaching
00:18:44
career. We all are. It's It's funny.
00:18:47
Like I'm I'm in my 50s now, but
00:18:49
sometimes you still feel like a little
00:18:50
kid. Yeah. It's weird. You have these
00:18:52
moments. Yeah. Oh. Well, I think it's a
00:18:53
good thing, isn't it? I mean, I can have
00:18:56
a tendency to be flippant. If you ask a
00:18:58
lead our leadership team at school,
00:18:59
they'd probably say, "Yeah, flippant"
00:19:01
would be a word. And in what way? Just
00:19:03
in terms of trying to keep things light,
00:19:05
right? Um sometimes I'd rather, you
00:19:07
know, we can be sort of playful. Yeah.
00:19:09
Yeah. you can be in some pretty serious
00:19:11
sort of meetings and they go back to
00:19:13
back and I think you want to sometimes
00:19:15
to get the best out of people you want
00:19:17
them to feel comfortable. So I I would
00:19:20
often sort of add a a light comment to
00:19:22
to to whatever it is to just sort of see
00:19:24
if you can break the tone a little bit.
00:19:27
Um but going back to your question, well
00:19:30
obviously my parents were critical. Um
00:19:32
I'm a family of five children and I was
00:19:35
second to youngest. So um some my my my
00:19:39
my dad was the head of two different
00:19:41
schools. Well he was a deputy head when
00:19:44
we moved to Palmy and and that was the
00:19:46
reason we moved to Palmy and then um he
00:19:48
went on to lead two different schools.
00:19:50
So I was sort of able to see what his
00:19:54
you know the lifestyle was was that he
00:19:56
led and um so there's no doubt that he
00:19:59
had an impression on me in terms of uh
00:20:02
probably my my personal values what both
00:20:06
mom and dad um gave to all of us. But
00:20:09
then um of course in an educational
00:20:11
sense I think I probably subconsciously
00:20:14
took a number of the the academic values
00:20:17
that he had and he was leading in the
00:20:19
schools that that he um was in charge of
00:20:21
while he was in in Palmy. Um and then
00:20:25
through there then through um my
00:20:29
teaching career there were a number of
00:20:30
people who have sort of influenced well
00:20:33
firstly I guess I never actually aimed
00:20:36
to go into teaching. I was one of those
00:20:38
sort of people in the seven form who
00:20:40
went don't know actually what I want to
00:20:42
do and so there was my my form master um
00:20:47
and economics teacher was Donna a
00:20:49
dentist and she and she said um you
00:20:52
should go into teaching. I was like what
00:20:54
what are you what are you thinking and I
00:20:57
talked to um mom and dad about it and
00:20:59
dad was like well be careful what you
00:21:01
wish for. Um so I headed into into
00:21:04
teaching. I started in a primary
00:21:06
environment and with a cuz I we're a
00:21:08
hockey family so hockey playing family
00:21:10
so we all played a hell of a lot a lot
00:21:12
of hockey so um Alan Lintz employed me
00:21:15
in a a school in Wongano at Ratherford
00:21:18
Intermediate and then I u moved into a
00:21:20
boarding environment in Wongano at
00:21:22
Wongano boys and um the headmaster of
00:21:25
the time Ian Hamilton um said to me
00:21:28
while I was in housemaster in that
00:21:30
environment while I was teaching at
00:21:32
Ratherford um you better come over and
00:21:34
for us and I was like well that sounds
00:21:36
like a good idea. So I sort of that
00:21:38
happened. Um and the head of English was
00:21:42
at the time Kevin Henry was probably
00:21:44
someone who was um when I keep looking
00:21:46
back I I look at what Kevin recognized
00:21:49
in me and he was he he came to me one
00:21:52
day with a the good old days where you
00:21:54
had an education gazette, you know, a
00:21:56
magazine. Um and he came to me with it
00:21:59
and gave it to me and said there's two
00:22:01
jobs highlighted in there and you're
00:22:03
applying for both. Uh one's Tapo New
00:22:06
College um and the others Wrapa College
00:22:09
head of English positions and I was what
00:22:12
I was 25 at the time and I was like I
00:22:16
why would I want to apply for um those
00:22:19
jobs? And he said cuz well you're
00:22:22
running my department so go run your
00:22:24
own. And I didn't really I didn't
00:22:26
recognize that. Um and so it was
00:22:29
probably the first time I went, "Oh,
00:22:31
actually maybe I maybe I do like the
00:22:34
leading component um of
00:22:37
well just the leading just leading
00:22:39
people and yeah, just like a natural
00:22:42
natural sort of leadership qualities
00:22:44
perhaps." Yeah. It wasn't anything
00:22:46
deliberate and wasn't anything planned.
00:22:48
just sort of he was probably the first
00:22:50
one who articulated it to me and said,
00:22:53
you know, like put it on a plate in
00:22:55
front of me which made me think and I
00:22:57
and I did apply for one of those jobs
00:22:58
and I and I got it and um sort of just
00:23:02
carried on from there. Just accelerated
00:23:04
through the ranks. Yeah. You you went to
00:23:06
Palmer North Boys High School from 1981
00:23:08
to 1985. My third form was 86. So Okay.
00:23:12
We just missed. We just we just missed.
00:23:14
Um what was your house? Phoenix.
00:23:17
Phoenix. Oh, boo. Boo. We won the
00:23:19
marching in 1985. Did you? Yeah, we beat
00:23:22
Murray. Murray that always wins the
00:23:23
marching. I know. We don't don't ask,
00:23:25
but we won. Don't know how we won, but
00:23:27
we did. Yeah. I didn't I didn't
00:23:29
particularly um enjoy my my school very
00:23:31
much at the time cuz I wasn't
00:23:32
particularly sporty and I wasn't
00:23:33
particularly academic. So, I was just
00:23:34
one of those people that just sort of
00:23:36
went through, didn't cause any trouble,
00:23:37
but didn't sort of get a lot of notice.
00:23:38
But I look back now, um maybe it's type
00:23:41
three fun, the sort of thing that's
00:23:42
horrible at the time, but you look back
00:23:43
and it it's actually quite um character
00:23:46
building. It's really good. And there's
00:23:47
been a couple of things on the podcast
00:23:48
that I've noticed like um Detective
00:23:50
Inspector Scott Beard is another guest
00:23:51
I've had and he's um older than you and
00:23:54
I. Um and we could connect over over our
00:23:57
time at school and you know make jokes
00:23:59
and bit of banter about the march.
00:24:00
Absolutely. Were you ever caned by Mr.
00:24:02
Brookie?
00:24:04
No, I wasn't. And uh probably one of the
00:24:07
reasons my father you know being a being
00:24:10
a a principal um the rule was if you if
00:24:13
you get cane to school come home and
00:24:14
tell me and I'll and I'll can you again
00:24:17
that sort of parenting you think about
00:24:19
that today that we get the opposite. But
00:24:22
um and if you don't tell me I'll find
00:24:24
out cuz I'll have a beer with Brookie
00:24:26
and when he tells me I'll pay you twice
00:24:27
for everyone you got. So, and I was sort
00:24:30
of the youngest. Well, I think um Simon,
00:24:32
my um brother who was just older than
00:24:34
me, he he he uh he probably got caned
00:24:37
several times over by by the likes of
00:24:39
Brookie. Um no, I didn't get didn't get
00:24:42
um I was fortunate enough to move
00:24:44
through the school without getting
00:24:45
caned. Um I I enjoyed my time at um
00:24:49
Palmy Boys. I think playing sport was a
00:24:52
thing that um that sort of engaged you
00:24:55
with the with school environment. I
00:24:57
can't say I was an academic. In fact,
00:24:59
some boys at the gate today said to me
00:25:01
or the lights at the end of the day
00:25:02
said, "Sir, if you went to grammar, what
00:25:04
stream would you have been in?" I know.
00:25:06
They said, "Where would you have been?"
00:25:08
And I said, "I've been in A6." And they
00:25:10
went, "What does A6 mean?" I said, "I
00:25:11
would have been in room A6." They like,
00:25:13
"Oh, that's not a stream." I went, "You
00:25:15
didn't ask me. So, you need to ask me
00:25:16
quite clearly your questions, boys."
00:25:19
But I, you know, I said to them, I'd
00:25:21
been sort of H probably, you know, um I
00:25:24
was I was a good average student who
00:25:26
wasn't passionate about um learning at
00:25:29
that point in time. And I wish in lots
00:25:30
of ways I we we had people who actually
00:25:34
told us why we were learning and why how
00:25:37
important it would be because when
00:25:38
you're a bit older, you work it out,
00:25:40
right? Yeah, absolutely. Do you do you
00:25:43
from where you stand out? I mean the um
00:25:45
the the caning thing that was a long
00:25:46
time ago. I think that was abolished
00:25:47
midway through my time at school.
00:25:50
Something you said before resonated with
00:25:51
me because um yeah, I think because it
00:25:53
was on the cusp like parents had a right
00:25:55
they could either opt in or opt out of
00:25:56
the caning. Um and my parents most
00:25:58
definitely opted in. And if I ever got
00:26:00
in trouble at school and I went home and
00:26:02
told my parents like there wouldn't
00:26:03
there wouldn't be any presumption of
00:26:04
innocence. It would just immediately be
00:26:06
well you must have deserved it. We we
00:26:09
just trusted the teachers was always
00:26:11
right, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. Do you
00:26:13
do you um Yeah. Would that be helpful
00:26:15
for you in this day and age if you're
00:26:17
able to cane kids? No. No. I I I I've
00:26:22
changed my view on that through my
00:26:24
teaching career. Um but I don't think I
00:26:27
can't think of a case other than, you
00:26:30
know, if you if you get frustrated that
00:26:33
you might think it's a good thing, but
00:26:34
what what is that doing? All it would be
00:26:36
doing is actually, you know, helping
00:26:38
helping me um with my frustration, but
00:26:41
it's not going to actually teach anyone
00:26:42
anything. Again, I think when we go
00:26:44
through discipline processes, we we're
00:26:46
quite um objective with the boys and we
00:26:48
keep talking to the boys and their
00:26:50
parents about their behavior, not about
00:26:52
them as a person. And that this is the
00:26:54
behavior that we're we're responding to.
00:26:57
And uh yeah, I don't I don't think
00:26:59
anything be won by anything would be won
00:27:01
by um hitting hitting hitting a child um
00:27:05
or a student now because uh you'd just
00:27:08
be you'd just be disrespected. M
00:27:12
Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Sure
00:27:14
as [ __ ] worked for me. You get caned in
00:27:17
the library for you once by Brookie and
00:27:18
you didn't want to go back a second time
00:27:20
on a Monday morning. No, but he would
00:27:22
call out who he had hit the the
00:27:24
following day at assembly, wouldn't he?
00:27:26
List of names. Laundry list of names.
00:27:28
Yeah. I mean, the world's changed.
00:27:29
That's the difference. I think, you
00:27:31
know, I didn't think anything of it in
00:27:32
the in the 80s when I was at school
00:27:34
when, you know, guys were lining up
00:27:36
outside to be caned outside in the
00:27:37
quadrangle so that everyone could hear
00:27:39
the resounding swing, you know, and and
00:27:41
the hit. Um, but there they were also
00:27:44
had they also had some empathy in there
00:27:47
too because they worked out whether you
00:27:49
actually needed to be caned or not. And
00:27:51
I think there were a couple of occasions
00:27:53
where I've I'd been into to see Errol um
00:27:56
Brookie as when he was senior master and
00:27:59
um when he and you say just sat down and
00:28:01
had a conversation and went okay well
00:28:02
we'll sort this out because he only
00:28:05
through entering the teaching career
00:28:08
have I looked back and gone actually
00:28:09
I've I worked it out he understood that
00:28:12
that teacher's response wasn't the right
00:28:15
response so we're not we're not going
00:28:17
anywhere with it. M god there were so
00:28:19
many characters at that school eh like
00:28:21
you and I we could sit here for an hour
00:28:23
and tell stories about um Digger Doyle
00:28:26
or Wigglesworth or Psome Portius or
00:28:31
Yeah. Some of them are still around.
00:28:34
Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Does Grammy have
00:28:36
that sort of thing? Teachers that have
00:28:37
just been you, you know, spend their
00:28:39
entire life there? Yeah. Uh look, the
00:28:42
oldest serving master at grammar, the
00:28:44
longest serving um grammar master at the
00:28:46
moment is Justin Burrows, and he's in
00:28:48
his 41st year, you know, at grammar. So,
00:28:50
and he's a um I sort of describe him as
00:28:54
an artist and resident because he's an
00:28:56
artist in his own right. Um but he's a a
00:28:58
well admired, you know, teacher of
00:28:59
painting. So, um and and still a
00:29:03
contributor, you know, still managing
00:29:04
the under 15 rugby team and those sort
00:29:05
of things. So, he's he's active. So uh
00:29:09
those sort of people bring with them an
00:29:11
institutional knowledge and they can
00:29:13
quietly say hey I love the way we did x
00:29:16
y and zed which is new or hey we we do x
00:29:20
y and zed because of this reason you
00:29:23
know so some of those rituals and those
00:29:25
um key aspects of belonging for a school
00:29:27
like grammar are are held true by some
00:29:29
of those mast's presence. Oh that's
00:29:32
brilliant. So after you leave boys high
00:29:34
you go to teal teachers college. Um then
00:29:36
you do some studies at Massie and then
00:29:38
um some um leadership papers at Harvard.
00:29:43
Was this extra murally or did you go to
00:29:45
Harvard? I went to Harvard. Um wow. How
00:29:47
was that? Oh yeah. Fantastic. Um so I
00:29:51
won a a fellowship to um travel and we
00:29:54
did so as a family. It was maybe five or
00:29:57
six years into my tenure at Palmy Boys
00:30:00
and um and so as part of that was um
00:30:04
heading to Harvard to do the educational
00:30:06
leadership program and with um largely
00:30:10
heads from around the world who who
00:30:12
gathered together. phenomenal a great
00:30:14
yeah wonderful experience and and I was
00:30:17
fortunate enough to have um a similar
00:30:19
have similar opportunity la two years
00:30:22
ago we went to graduate school of educ
00:30:24
graduate school of business and did a um
00:30:26
executive leadership program and they're
00:30:28
just great opportunity to sort of hear
00:30:32
from the world's best um to be with
00:30:35
people like-minded sort of people from
00:30:38
around the world uh to be able to
00:30:40
compare stories um but to also then sort
00:30:43
just get time to reflect on, you know,
00:30:45
where you're at in your own um sort of
00:30:48
career, but also where you're at with
00:30:50
the role that you're performing. What
00:30:52
are the biggest lessons about leadership
00:30:54
you got from Harvard? H communication.
00:30:57
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we spent a day on
00:30:59
body language um from a body language,
00:31:03
you know, expert who's written books um
00:31:05
on it. And I I've I've used them with
00:31:08
boys. In fact, I should be trying to use
00:31:10
them in this seat. um you know just
00:31:13
about presentation like if you if you
00:31:15
are presenting then have your shoulders
00:31:16
back like use the entire what what
00:31:19
you've been given use it to your
00:31:20
advantage. If you're sitting in a in a
00:31:22
chair then make sure you know your bum's
00:31:24
back in the chair and you're sitting
00:31:26
upright because again it gives a it
00:31:28
gives an impression about who you are um
00:31:30
as as a as a leader. So yeah. Yeah.
00:31:33
Critical. But and also one of the things
00:31:35
that I I sort of think about quite a bit
00:31:38
from that course is um if you want to
00:31:41
bring people with you um can you tell
00:31:44
them using it a story rather than just
00:31:50
um stating it as it is which isn't as
00:31:53
easy as you think when you you know you
00:31:55
got to think of a relevant story or make
00:31:57
up a relevant story in order to get your
00:32:00
message across. Um but it but when you
00:32:03
tell something as a story, you certainly
00:32:05
see people um connect with you much more
00:32:10
just cuz it's easier for them to absorb
00:32:12
the information that way with the story.
00:32:13
Oh, that's really interesting. Um can
00:32:16
leadership be taught? It seems like you
00:32:17
were like a natural leader or you just
00:32:19
sort of gravitated towards it from what
00:32:20
you were saying earlier. Is it something
00:32:22
that can be taught or people just sort
00:32:23
of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think
00:32:25
leadership uh look you can have
00:32:28
leadership attributes but leadership can
00:32:29
absolutely be taught. Um and I mean they
00:32:33
are the things that we are trying to do
00:32:35
for for boys. While we might name still
00:32:37
name prefects and do those sort of
00:32:39
things, it doesn't mean that you're
00:32:40
restricted from leading in any sort of
00:32:42
sense. Um and and for from what we we
00:32:45
talked to the boys about if when you
00:32:48
leave this environment, can you answer
00:32:51
three questions? um who who am I? Um
00:32:55
where do I fit in? And and how can I
00:32:56
serve others? And if you can answer
00:32:58
those three questions after your time at
00:33:01
grammar, then you're going to actually
00:33:03
be a pretty good contributor to society.
00:33:07
Um because if you don't know who you are
00:33:08
for a start, then you can't actually do
00:33:10
any of the other things. You have to
00:33:12
know, you have to be comfortable in your
00:33:13
own skin, right? M. And so the boys who
00:33:16
tend to stray and wander, the first
00:33:19
thing we actually spend time with them
00:33:21
on is like, "Who do you want to be?"
00:33:23
Like, "Do you know?" And have that
00:33:26
conversation because when they have
00:33:28
that, then you've got something to aim
00:33:30
for and a reason to actually get out of
00:33:32
bed every day and say, "Well, if I do
00:33:35
these things today, then that's going to
00:33:37
help me be the person I I want to be. If
00:33:39
I do them again tomorrow, then obviously
00:33:41
it becomes good habit forming.
00:33:44
This is great stuff. Yeah, the these
00:33:47
this Yeah, these are really really
00:33:49
valuable lessons and takeaways here. So,
00:33:50
thanks for sharing. What about you?
00:33:52
How's your leadership style changed over
00:33:53
the years?
00:33:55
Has it has it changed as you've as
00:33:57
you've got older and spent more time in
00:33:59
the role? It'd be great to have a
00:34:02
omniscient sort of view on that,
00:34:03
wouldn't it? And sort of a drone eye
00:34:06
sort of view. I think
00:34:09
some people will laugh at this, but I I
00:34:11
think I've probably mellowed um in in my
00:34:15
approach. Um
00:34:17
I I mean I'm quite black and white in
00:34:21
what I think how I think education um
00:34:25
should be conducted. Um, and
00:34:29
but I think I can see more gray the
00:34:31
longer um I'm in the role and working
00:34:34
with boys. So that we don't have to be
00:34:37
it doesn't always have to be X or Y. And
00:34:40
I think boys are very accepting of that
00:34:42
that there are rules of rules for
00:34:44
example but sometimes they actually have
00:34:46
to be exceptions to those rules um in
00:34:49
order to accommodate um people with a
00:34:52
whole range of beliefs. While the
00:34:54
majority of us actually continue in the
00:34:57
same vein, I would have probably
00:34:58
previously said no, it has to be that
00:35:01
because otherwise as soon as there's an
00:35:02
exception, it'll erode overall. But I
00:35:05
don't think it has to be like that
00:35:06
necessarily.
00:35:09
You do you think that's an age thing, an
00:35:11
experience thing? You're just getting
00:35:12
softer in your old age or
00:35:15
It'd be interesting for you to ask ask
00:35:18
people that. I'm not sure what I haven't
00:35:21
been described as soft, I don't think.
00:35:23
And I actually talked to the boys about
00:35:26
one of the the um quotes I I love using
00:35:30
with the boys is Rory Sabatini's um lick
00:35:33
the lollipop of mediocrity once and
00:35:35
you'll suck it forever. Um so I've never
00:35:38
heard that one before. Haven't you?
00:35:40
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's fantastic one.
00:35:42
sort of I talk to boys about the fact
00:35:44
that you know there are there are 1
00:35:46
percententers in our community you know
00:35:48
and 1 percententers are people who just
00:35:50
don't contribute and don't want to
00:35:52
contribute and there will always be 1
00:35:53
percententers and we have 1
00:35:54
percententers in our environment too and
00:35:58
you know those people actually drag us
00:36:00
down but we actually have to identify
00:36:01
that that's who they are not join them
00:36:04
because otherwise that number grows and
00:36:05
as soon as that number grows they can
00:36:08
actually change the quality of society
00:36:11
they can change the quality of our
00:36:12
school environment. Like a bad apple in
00:36:13
the barrel. That's right. It just, you
00:36:15
know, there's there's a tipping point.
00:36:17
And so, lick the lollipop of mediocrity
00:36:20
once or you'll suck it forever is a
00:36:21
great sort of thing to stick. And you
00:36:23
think about storytelling, you you you
00:36:25
think about that, right? You picture
00:36:27
that. And um so whenever I sort of pull
00:36:30
that quote out, the boys sort of like we
00:36:33
know what's coming next. The mediocrity
00:36:35
sort of speech. Um so
00:36:39
I don't know. I don't know that I'd be I
00:36:41
I don't I think
00:36:44
I think it's I think you just as you see
00:36:46
more in in life that you actually just
00:36:49
you you do tweak and you know I try to
00:36:54
read different perspectives. I try to
00:36:56
you know listen to you know various
00:36:59
podcasts and try to listen to something
00:37:01
every morning for sort of 20 minutes.
00:37:02
So, it's sort of you're getting your
00:37:04
your thought pattern tested and your uh
00:37:07
and and your beliefs sort of tested
00:37:09
either confirming them or thinking
00:37:11
actually maybe I should take a different
00:37:13
approach to that. Well, I suppose that's
00:37:15
good leadership as well being open to um
00:37:17
be challenged or change your opinions.
00:37:19
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that
00:37:21
that's sort of another critical thing. I
00:37:24
think I've probably been quite well I
00:37:26
have been direct in my leadership style.
00:37:29
My way of the highway. Yeah. could could
00:37:31
be um but one of the things that I have
00:37:34
been challenged on by going through like
00:37:36
human synergistics processes um and some
00:37:39
of the fantastic work that they do is um
00:37:41
can you step back can you just step back
00:37:44
and let other people um share their view
00:37:47
because actually through them sharing
00:37:50
their view you you build they come in
00:37:52
more than actually here's the answer um
00:37:55
so I'm relatively impatient sort of
00:37:57
person I like sort of actions and sort
00:38:00
of orientated like to move things along,
00:38:02
but in order if you if you move them too
00:38:05
quickly, then you're not necessarily
00:38:06
bringing people with you. So, I'm I've
00:38:08
sort of worked on that um more recently
00:38:11
to try and pull people in because
00:38:12
they've actually they have got the
00:38:13
answers. They know what the ethos of
00:38:16
grammar is. They know where we're
00:38:17
heading and so they actually have the
00:38:19
answers.
00:38:21
What about vulnerability and leadership?
00:38:24
Is there Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah, I I
00:38:27
think so. if you if you when when you
00:38:30
stuff things up, you have to own those
00:38:32
or not necessarily even stuff them up,
00:38:34
but if it didn't go quite according to
00:38:36
plan, I think you you own it. And I I I
00:38:39
think that's and it doesn't matter
00:38:42
whether it's someone else's error when
00:38:44
you're leading a team. It's actually
00:38:45
your it's you own it. You don't aortion
00:38:49
blame to the person, you know, who made
00:38:52
an error that we actually go, "No,
00:38:53
that's an Oakland Grammar School error
00:38:55
and I own that." um and and um when you
00:38:58
protect the the people where things went
00:39:00
wrong and then of course off line you go
00:39:03
and sort of fix up and make sure that
00:39:05
that's not going to be repeated. Yeah.
00:39:07
And if you do that you actually end up
00:39:09
because we're dealing with so many
00:39:11
different scenarios and if you think
00:39:12
about for example the health and safety
00:39:14
of 2,700 boys on site. If you think
00:39:18
about education outside the classroom
00:39:20
environments where we're sending kids
00:39:23
kids, teenagers, you know, chemically
00:39:24
imbalanced young men out into the world,
00:39:27
um then we have to have systems in place
00:39:30
and we're relying on people to
00:39:32
understand what those systems are and
00:39:34
employ them given the contexts. So, the
00:39:36
last thing we want is for them not to
00:39:38
feel that they're trusted, but know that
00:39:40
we're there to um to support them
00:39:43
because then hopefully the big issues
00:39:46
just don't arise.
00:39:49
I love that. Oh, um you just to time
00:39:52
stamp uh this conversation. It's late
00:39:54
May 2025. Um did you add assembly this
00:39:57
morning or any morning this week, have
00:39:58
you talked about the run it straight
00:40:00
thing? Yeah, I did. Spoke about it this
00:40:02
morning. Yeah. Did you? What? Yeah. What
00:40:03
did you say about that?
00:40:05
I'd already spoken to them at the start
00:40:06
of the term because it was just it was
00:40:09
just coming up as a as a thing um on
00:40:12
international media. It hadn't hadn't uh
00:40:14
well we have seen run it straight for a
00:40:17
little while. Every now and then it
00:40:18
would pop up in the school grounds like
00:40:20
a like like ball rush um does and I
00:40:23
don't so much have trouble with ball
00:40:25
rush but the run it straight things just
00:40:28
senseless. Um, so I said to I did say to
00:40:32
the boys at the start of the term like
00:40:33
run it straight. We're like boys we're
00:40:36
not we're not doing it. Um, and we'll
00:40:38
deal with it at the very high end if if
00:40:40
you actually start that. Uh, and um, and
00:40:45
gave them the reasons. I didn't actually
00:40:46
go to the extent of um, you know, death
00:40:50
at that point in time. Um, but today I I
00:40:53
just I've actually started the assembly
00:40:55
after the after the prayer both. So
00:40:57
before we move on to the day, I do want
00:40:59
to just acknowledge, you know, the
00:41:01
passing of the young man who's Palmy
00:41:02
boy's old boy. Um, and you know, isn't
00:41:06
it isn't it a tragedy, boys, that we're
00:41:09
actually find ourselves um having this
00:41:12
discussion today that someone died from
00:41:14
something that we talked about not being
00:41:16
involved with. And so I hope you
00:41:18
understand that sometimes when we're
00:41:20
talking to you, we're not necessarily
00:41:22
being the fun police. We're actually
00:41:24
doing things from a perspective about
00:41:26
what's best for you. And you might not
00:41:28
see that right now, but you I hope you
00:41:31
now understand because, you know, if it
00:41:33
if it wasn't death, then there could be
00:41:36
some serious injuries that could impede
00:41:39
what you can do for the rest of your
00:41:40
life. It's just not worth it. Teenage
00:41:43
boys, for the most part, we're pretty
00:41:45
dumb, aren't we? Like when it comes to
00:41:48
decision- making, I think probably as
00:41:50
men sometimes. Yeah.
00:41:52
It takes a while to get there, but we
00:41:54
love love physical physicality. Eh, do
00:41:56
you sort of um Yeah, you sort of
00:41:58
encourage that. You mentioned ball rush
00:42:00
before. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But like
00:42:02
the boys would be if our top field at
00:42:05
Grammar that is typically open every
00:42:07
lunchtime every interval so that they
00:42:09
can you know there are 100 games of
00:42:12
sandal tennis and there's a game of
00:42:14
touch or you know playing uh sorry
00:42:17
sandal cricket playing cricket with your
00:42:19
sandal because you don't have a bat
00:42:20
because you're disorganized because you
00:42:21
actually didn't put a bat and you you
00:42:22
know are using like a rubbish bin as
00:42:24
wickets or something. Well or some you
00:42:27
know some poor boy as the wickets. what
00:42:30
you know there's all these games that
00:42:31
are going on and they sort of cross over
00:42:33
each other um and some and we walk
00:42:36
through the middle of the these every
00:42:38
day on the field and typically don't get
00:42:41
hit by anything which is sort of amazing
00:42:44
and nor do they seem to so we have a
00:42:46
general rule on physicality in the
00:42:49
grounds and is that that is like play
00:42:51
with a boy or play with boys your own
00:42:53
size like like think about it like do
00:42:56
not if you're a young third former play
00:42:58
with um you know members of the front
00:43:01
row of the first 15 like while that
00:43:03
might be admirable in terms of uh what
00:43:05
you think is courageous it's stupid. So
00:43:09
play all the play get involved with
00:43:11
physic as physical in physical manner as
00:43:13
much as you like as long as it's not um
00:43:16
again the other aspect is we talked to
00:43:18
them about it's not sport in the grounds
00:43:21
at lunchtime. So it's not you know being
00:43:24
played with strict rules and guidelines
00:43:26
and a referee. So you actually have to
00:43:28
remember don't get carried away. Um and
00:43:31
give it and give a little bit or take a
00:43:32
you know give and take a little bit. Uh
00:43:34
because that's critical. It's a game
00:43:36
rather than sport. And um I think um
00:43:39
largely they get that. We we get the um
00:43:41
you know sponsored by St. John's
00:43:43
ambulance service rocking on up. We've
00:43:46
got a wonderful team of nurses at school
00:43:48
who who are sort of looking after boys
00:43:50
on a daily basis as well. But largely
00:43:53
happens. It's important that they're
00:43:55
physical. Um and we've actually
00:43:57
structured our day so that um there are
00:44:01
so a seven period day typically um five
00:44:04
lessons before lunch um and um then
00:44:07
lunch and two lessons after lunch job
00:44:10
done. So that they actually have the
00:44:12
chance just once they're being physical
00:44:14
back into class. You know you got two
00:44:15
40-minute lessons to go. And all of our
00:44:17
lessons are 40 minutes because you know
00:44:19
short um sort of time span for boys. Get
00:44:23
in 40 minutes. Get get whatever the
00:44:25
content is. get out, get on to your next
00:44:27
thing. And you know, you got your teach
00:44:29
you see your teacher every day. So I
00:44:30
don't have to think, oh, I got to do my
00:44:32
homework tonight. I have to do my
00:44:33
homework tonight cuz I got my class
00:44:34
tomorrow.
00:44:37
40 minutes is very very short. By the
00:44:39
time you get settled and open your
00:44:40
books, it doesn't leave a lot of time.
00:44:42
Eh, yes. Research says it's a good
00:44:45
length of time to to learn. You know,
00:44:47
one or two key teaching points, some
00:44:49
opportunity to actually put it into
00:44:51
place, sum it up, homework, job done.
00:44:54
And and you know people who say uh
00:44:57
homework's a bad thing. Well, homework's
00:44:59
actually the the reinforcement of
00:45:01
learning. And if you're not doing that
00:45:03
on a if boys aren't doing that on a on a
00:45:05
night by basis, then they're losing out
00:45:07
because they they're just not locking
00:45:09
things into their memory. You know, we
00:45:11
we we all know you want something to
00:45:13
stay in your memory, then you need to
00:45:14
repeat it and you need to uh layer it
00:45:17
and across uh various times within a 24
00:45:20
48 hour period. Otherwise, it'll, you
00:45:22
know, a good portion of it's gone. Are
00:45:25
you strict at um keeping on top of your
00:45:28
teachers and making sure they're
00:45:29
distributing the homework? The reason I
00:45:31
bring this up, when I started at Boy
00:45:32
High, I found it daunting in the
00:45:34
beginning because I got told five
00:45:36
lessons every day and you would have
00:45:37
half an hour of homework each night from
00:45:39
each each class. So, two and a half
00:45:41
hours of homework every night. And for
00:45:42
the first couple of weeks, it was like
00:45:43
that. But then a lot of the teachers
00:45:44
sort of dropped off, which as a student,
00:45:47
I appreciated.
00:45:49
Yeah. Well, you would, wouldn't you?
00:45:50
Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to tell
00:45:52
anyone that. You don't want to, you
00:45:53
know. Oh, no. It was like a Yeah. It was
00:45:55
like a code. You don't You don't break.
00:45:57
We have a a homework diary system. There
00:45:59
is an expectation you're getting
00:46:00
homework from every every teacher every
00:46:02
day. Um we've been through um again,
00:46:05
this is the the presence thing to
00:46:07
reinforce it. We've been through the
00:46:08
third form classes, for example. Uh I've
00:46:11
been through every class three times
00:46:13
this year. Um and check diaries on every
00:46:16
single time through classes. Check you
00:46:18
want to see parent signature in may want
00:46:20
to see your homework's in there. Um,
00:46:22
some individual conversations with a few
00:46:23
boys who might have forgotten them. Um,
00:46:25
and um, so little visit to my office to
00:46:27
show me that those sort of things. Um,
00:46:30
and not necessarily as a punitive thing,
00:46:32
but actually to reinforce how critical
00:46:35
it is that you maintain a diary. And if
00:46:36
you think about that in our daily lives,
00:46:38
if we're not able to maintain a diary,
00:46:41
then we waste time, you know, waste time
00:46:43
in every day. M is is your with these um
00:46:46
when you're um disciplining boys, does
00:46:49
your communication style vary from kid
00:46:51
to kid? So like I suppose there's some
00:46:53
kids that you you need to yell at to get
00:46:55
the messaging through or is it you sort
00:46:58
of the same across the board regardless
00:47:00
of the individual?
00:47:02
No, it's different different boy to boy.
00:47:05
No doubt about that. But I yelling
00:47:08
doesn't yelling doesn't work. It just,
00:47:10
you know, we go put that back to the
00:47:13
1980s, you know, smell Errol Brookie's
00:47:16
pipe and then hear his voice down the
00:47:18
down the corridor, right? Well,
00:47:21
there's nothing there's nothing won out
00:47:23
of yelling cuz all it shows them is that
00:47:25
you've lost control. Um, so it'd be
00:47:29
pretty pretty rare that I would I would
00:47:32
yell um at anyone probably other than my
00:47:35
own children when I've lost the plot.
00:47:38
They're all adults now, are they? Yeah,
00:47:39
they are. Yeah. So, um yeah. So, so uh
00:47:42
Palmer Boys High for your education,
00:47:44
then you left and you came back and you
00:47:46
were the recctor. That's what it's
00:47:48
that's what it's called there from um
00:47:50
2002. So, it was like 17 years after you
00:47:53
left to when you came back. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:55
Um yeah. What had changed in that time
00:47:58
for better and for worse?
00:48:01
Um I think the work that um Dave Sims
00:48:04
did as as recctor who was before me was
00:48:07
phenomenal. actually that place was
00:48:09
locked down um in terms of standards and
00:48:12
expectations of boys. So for a first
00:48:15
headship to come in and I was again I
00:48:18
was young and I had never actually
00:48:19
thought I would win that post and um was
00:48:23
fortunate to do so and fortunate to go
00:48:26
into a school that had been so wellrun
00:48:29
um that what I all I needed to do was
00:48:31
actually follow um what he you know
00:48:33
follow the rhythm effectively for the
00:48:35
first we while
00:48:38
um I I think it was a much better school
00:48:40
than when you and I were there And and
00:48:44
that's nothing about the leadership of
00:48:45
the school. I just think it had evolved
00:48:47
into a place where uh you know young men
00:48:50
were were able to be young men and it
00:48:52
didn't matter whether you were you know
00:48:54
a rugby player, a debater, a musician or
00:48:57
you know part of the leadership program
00:48:59
you know that these things were all
00:49:00
being respected and um I just think the
00:49:03
school had evolved.
00:49:06
What's that like? So leaving as a
00:49:07
student and then coming back as the as
00:49:09
the head. It's crazy really. Hey, it's
00:49:11
crazy. So, there must be teachers there
00:49:13
that taught you and you suddenly you're
00:49:15
suddenly like a their boss. Yeah, I
00:49:17
actually The imposter syndrome must have
00:49:19
been in insane in the beginning. Oh,
00:49:23
yeah. No, I I I did wonder what the
00:49:25
board was doing um appointing me at the
00:49:27
time. Um but um on my
00:49:33
first day um the very first staff
00:49:37
briefing at Palmy Boys, I actually had
00:49:40
my seven form report with me um and I
00:49:42
read out some of the comments and some
00:49:45
of the teachers were in the room and um
00:49:47
I remember um a teacher who I I highly
00:49:50
respected in my sim form was Jared
00:49:52
Okconor who probably would have Dr. He's
00:49:53
my favorite English teacher. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:55
Mine too. and made another guy called
00:49:57
Dennis Duffy. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:49:59
Yeah, both or Dennis taught Latin when
00:50:01
you as well. Um and um I read out um the
00:50:05
comment that um Gerarded um and I didn't
00:50:08
attribute it to a name and then and I
00:50:10
said this teacher who u made this
00:50:12
comment in my sim form report also on my
00:50:15
very first assessment the first essay I
00:50:17
wrote in his English class um in my sim
00:50:19
for he gave me zero for and he and his
00:50:22
comment on that I still I still remember
00:50:24
the comment on that bottom of that essay
00:50:26
was if you'd written on the topic this
00:50:28
would have been 17 out of 20 not zero
00:50:32
But I I actually learned a lot, you
00:50:34
know, he it was like quite clever on his
00:50:36
part to to do that because I was like,
00:50:39
"Okay, hell, I've got to adjust and my
00:50:42
best mark in sim form um was English."
00:50:44
Um and why I I I loved his style of
00:50:47
teaching. I loved his interest in in me
00:50:50
and um his directness. So you know if
00:50:54
when teachers grab um the attention of
00:50:57
of students then typically particularly
00:51:00
boys they will learn the teacher rather
00:51:04
than necessarily learn the subject. Oh
00:51:06
100% I couldn't agree more and um yeah
00:51:09
English was my my best subject and I I
00:51:11
flourished in it and then you have this
00:51:13
this bond with these teachers and you
00:51:14
want to do you want to do well for them.
00:51:16
Yeah. And you respond well to them.
00:51:17
Yeah. Um it's really impactful eh. Oh it
00:51:20
is totally.
00:51:21
So 10 years on the job in in Palmer
00:51:23
North and then you you start to get
00:51:26
bored, you looking for a new challenge
00:51:27
or or how did the grammar thing come
00:51:29
about? Are you shoulder tapped or um no
00:51:32
no I hadn't wasn't I had uh people in
00:51:35
the grammar community um um sort of
00:51:40
communicating with me through a range of
00:51:42
methods um saying hey look the grammar
00:51:45
job will be coming up shortly in the
00:51:48
next year or two. it would be great if
00:51:49
if if you applied for the job. Uh and I
00:51:52
think that's something that um Grammar
00:51:54
has been very uh good at through time is
00:51:58
saying well okay there is this is the
00:52:00
headmaster but now we've got to prepare
00:52:01
for who the next headmaster is. So the
00:52:04
succession planning component of of
00:52:05
grammar has been very very clever.
00:52:07
They're not prepared to let it happen by
00:52:10
chance. So you need to hand in like a
00:52:12
5year notice period or
00:52:15
No. Well, part of the job that I have
00:52:17
and it's made pretty clear to me, not
00:52:19
necessarily um by from the board, but
00:52:22
from the grammar community because there
00:52:24
are groups um who support me in my role
00:52:28
and there who who have got a you know
00:52:30
invested and Siron Carter is a great
00:52:32
example um of that who make it pretty
00:52:35
clear to you that part of your job is to
00:52:38
ensure that you are uh preparing others
00:52:41
to become leaders who could potentially
00:52:43
pick up the Oakland Grammar School role.
00:52:45
And what's the best way of doing that is
00:52:47
to actually have them go out and lead
00:52:48
other schools first so that they could
00:52:50
come back. And um so I I do take that
00:52:54
aspect of of the job, you know, very
00:52:56
very very seriously. Um, and I I'd
00:53:00
probably I hadn't thought about I hadn't
00:53:04
thought about the only reason I applied
00:53:05
for Palmy Boys because I was at Nelson
00:53:06
College at the time and I was loving it
00:53:09
and um Ann had my wife would would would
00:53:12
um agree that when I applied for the job
00:53:15
um she said, "What are you what are you
00:53:18
what are you doing? We we've just
00:53:19
finished renovating a house and we've
00:53:21
got a view over Tasman Bay and you want
00:53:23
to go to Palmer North? Like what what's
00:53:26
the view? Is she from parley? She's not.
00:53:28
No, she was uh from up the parapara um
00:53:31
back at Wongano. She's a farm girl. And
00:53:34
um so uh and I said, "Look, it's my old
00:53:38
school. I I need to apply for it just so
00:53:40
it's out of my system. I got no chance
00:53:42
of getting it." And so and and and ended
00:53:45
up getting it. And um so when
00:53:49
after probably seven years at PMY boys,
00:53:52
I felt good about where the school was
00:53:55
at and I was discussing that with the
00:53:57
chair of the board and uh another um job
00:54:01
in Oakland came up and there was sort of
00:54:03
an HR company trying to encourage me to
00:54:05
apply for that and the um the chair of
00:54:09
our board said you should go and look
00:54:10
just for professional development and I
00:54:13
I said then I think there's only one
00:54:15
school that I actually would move from
00:54:19
or move to from here and that's Oakland
00:54:22
Grammar School and that's really because
00:54:25
I I had um admiration while I was at
00:54:29
Palmy Boys of grammar just sort of had
00:54:31
something about it you know when you
00:54:32
played grammar there was sort of a sort
00:54:35
of a gentle arrogance or something about
00:54:37
them or there was just and I thought you
00:54:39
know and so grammar had intrigued me and
00:54:43
DJ Graham who was the ninth headmaster
00:54:45
of the school I had huge respect for and
00:54:49
I would often communicate with DJ when I
00:54:51
was um head of Palmy boys just about
00:54:55
educational philosophy things to sort of
00:54:57
sometimes you you got to check whether
00:55:00
you've you've you're on the right track
00:55:03
or whether you've actually moved off
00:55:04
track and I found DJ the voice of reason
00:55:07
for me to be someone who would just go
00:55:10
you know you're on the right track or no
00:55:11
no have you thought about this or have
00:55:13
you thought about that um so the wisdom
00:55:16
that that guy had and his contributions
00:55:18
to education in this country were
00:55:20
phenomenal. So when the opportunity came
00:55:22
to apply for grammar I I I did and um
00:55:25
yeah went through you know a thorough I
00:55:28
think three or four interviews um and
00:55:30
presentations and all of those sort of
00:55:32
aspects as part of the job and
00:55:34
ultimately ended up winning it which I
00:55:36
was um stoked about. You what do they
00:55:40
ask you? I mean, they already know what
00:55:41
you're capable of, right? Like you've
00:55:43
proven yourself at a at a very high
00:55:44
level at another school. Well, I I
00:55:48
probably the question that sticks in my
00:55:49
Well, there's there are all sorts of
00:55:51
questions and I think probably the board
00:55:53
at the time were if they were had
00:55:57
concerns because it was a highly
00:55:59
effective, you know, a board like a
00:56:01
commercial board of quality um where
00:56:04
here's this sort of hick from Palmer Mr.
00:56:07
north like going to come into central
00:56:09
Oakland in this sort of high-profile
00:56:11
school and what's he going to do do to
00:56:13
this place? Um and the question that
00:56:17
still sticks in my mind is the one that
00:56:19
Pit Mure um asked me um and Pit Pit was
00:56:23
a highly effective member of the board
00:56:24
and is still connected with the school.
00:56:26
Um, and her question was, "So, um, Tim,
00:56:31
um,
00:56:33
what if I said to you that Oakland
00:56:34
Grammar School's a modern central
00:56:36
Oakland school and, you know, hair
00:56:40
length and uniform are really not that
00:56:43
important, you know, like we we need to
00:56:46
move with what c the vibe of what
00:56:48
central Oakland is." And and I said,
00:56:52
"Um, well, employ the other guy." Um and
00:56:57
and she is that is that your answer? I
00:56:59
said, "Yeah, no, it is cuz I'm not your
00:57:01
guy." Like so you have to you have to
00:57:04
live the role like this. The the role is
00:57:07
it's a vocation really um and a
00:57:09
lifestyle. So I couldn't work in an
00:57:12
environment where that was going to be
00:57:13
like we're going to just it turned me
00:57:15
just drive me insane. So it was a pretty
00:57:18
brief response and then I was leaving
00:57:19
the interview. um the HR the lady from
00:57:22
the HR company running it. She sort of
00:57:25
we walked down to the lifts and she
00:57:26
said, "I don't think I've ever seen
00:57:28
someone self-destruct as quickly as as
00:57:30
you have in your interview." I said,
00:57:32
"Oh, well, it's like it's either going
00:57:34
to be or it's not going to be." So,
00:57:36
there's no point saying you're something
00:57:38
that you're not. Was it a trick
00:57:40
question?
00:57:42
I were they testing your answer. Yeah.
00:57:45
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Oh,
00:57:47
so you you passed. Well, Pip sort of Pip
00:57:49
and I have we've sort of laughed about
00:57:51
it um um since that time many many
00:57:54
times. And I think we've probably that
00:57:56
story's been told a few times, but um
00:58:00
I think um where
00:58:03
they wanted grammar to be was sort of
00:58:06
synced into its tradition and who it
00:58:08
was. Um and but they weren't giving me
00:58:11
any indication of that. M so it was like
00:58:14
you know you better um staple your your
00:58:18
position to the to the flag post um and
00:58:21
say what you believe in and and I think
00:58:23
you I think in a role like that and and
00:58:26
Pip were clever enough to understand
00:58:28
that if you if you don't actually have
00:58:30
some beliefs and you're not prepared to
00:58:32
stand by them well I tell you what
00:58:33
you're going to have a hell of a lot
00:58:34
more challenges that you're going to
00:58:35
face when you're in the role. Yeah, I I
00:58:38
used to love that in Palmer North. Um,
00:58:40
at least once a year I feel like in the
00:58:42
Manow to evening standard there was a
00:58:43
story about some kid that got sent home
00:58:45
for shoulder length hair and the mum the
00:58:46
mum's making a song and dance about it.
00:58:48
It's like they wheel out the same story
00:58:49
every year. Well, all it does is sort of
00:58:52
market the school, doesn't it? Quite.
00:58:53
Yeah, it says what you Yeah. Exactly
00:58:56
what you stand for. Yeah. It's on the
00:58:58
tin. Yeah. And there's plenty of other
00:58:59
schools. Go to go to a tap, go to QE, go
00:59:02
to Fryburg. We still say that in the en
00:59:04
uh enrollment evening. It's like, you
00:59:06
know, here are when we go through all of
00:59:08
the expectations and then if you don't
00:59:10
like it, well, don't come here. There
00:59:13
are plenty of schools with open entry,
00:59:14
go to one of those.
00:59:16
What are um the hard and fast um
00:59:18
expectations or rules? The kids are
00:59:21
allowed to vape at lunchtime. E
00:59:23
just sit there on their phone for half
00:59:25
an hour and have There's a whole pile of
00:59:26
nos. No mobile phones, no vaping, no
00:59:29
socks down, you know, shoot on time, you
00:59:33
know, all the the systems are. So the
00:59:36
boys know what the systems are. Like if
00:59:38
you're late to us, if you're if you're
00:59:41
coming up Mountain Road at 8:53, the
00:59:45
bell on the old bell um on top of the
00:59:48
main block, there's a prefect, you know,
00:59:50
ringing that from a, you know, lengthy
00:59:52
cord on the top of the seafloor. And
00:59:54
that r that rings for two minutes. Um
00:59:56
and it gives an indication that in two
00:59:58
minutes if that bell's ringing, you
00:59:59
haven't got long to get inside the
01:00:01
assembly hall because at 8:55 all of the
01:00:04
doors automatically lock and there's
01:00:06
only one door open and that goes to the
01:00:08
late room. So you're then in you're then
01:00:11
in a in a late you get three late and
01:00:13
you're 2 hours 3:30 to 5:30 after school
01:00:16
on a Friday. Um, so but the systems are
01:00:20
the systems and it's not like there are
01:00:22
going to be boys who get who who who
01:00:24
actually hit that threshold and they
01:00:25
have to sit in the hall. Doesn't matter
01:00:26
who you are. The rules are the same. So
01:00:29
don't be late.
01:00:31
I love that. There's something really
01:00:32
cool about that. E it's a reality of
01:00:35
reality of life. Like when you get into
01:00:36
the the workforce there's going to be
01:00:37
someone that's you know there's going to
01:00:38
be rules that you have to follow and
01:00:40
consequences if you don't follow them.
01:00:42
Um how do you do the phone thing? What
01:00:44
do you do with phones? Well, kids are
01:00:46
allowed to bring their phones to school.
01:00:48
Yep. If you're then they're not visible.
01:00:50
If you drive past Grammar in the morning
01:00:52
before they're coming on site, they can
01:00:54
use their phones off site. So, it's sort
01:00:56
of like a if it's they're like a
01:00:58
gathering outside the main gates while
01:01:00
they're getting their last fix on their
01:01:02
mobile phones. As soon as they're on on
01:01:04
site, they they're they're meant to be
01:01:06
off and they can have them in their
01:01:08
pocket if they want, but as soon as it's
01:01:09
visible, then it'll be confiscated. And
01:01:12
um there's a process for confiscation.
01:01:14
They lose them for seven days.
01:01:15
Um and then they collect them after
01:01:17
that. Um one of the deputy headmasters,
01:01:20
Dave Escu, he looks after all phones and
01:01:23
if you go in there, it could be like,
01:01:24
you know, there's a rooster crowing and
01:01:26
there's a alarm going off and
01:01:30
it's all like a big massive bowl of
01:01:32
devices. Exactly. Um what what about um
01:01:35
so if you if you get caught vaping,
01:01:36
what's that? Is that like a a suspension
01:01:38
detention? Yeah, they'd go before
01:01:40
there'd be a parental meeting um with
01:01:42
the deputy headmaster and then that
01:01:44
would be typically brought through to me
01:01:46
for a judgment on where what the sort of
01:01:49
consequences, but it'll be it's up
01:01:51
there. It's a that's a breach of our
01:01:52
fundamental school rules. So, drugs,
01:01:55
vaping, alcohol,
01:01:57
um those those sort of things are are
01:01:59
breaches of fundamental rules which
01:02:01
would um be something that would end up
01:02:03
getting presented to me. Yeah. Wow.
01:02:06
So your first day on the job um when you
01:02:08
get to grammar um what's that like?
01:02:11
You've got no history or no connection
01:02:12
with the with with the school. So I'm
01:02:14
guessing you you probably felt felt like
01:02:16
what the junior boys would feel like at
01:02:17
the first day of a new year. Yeah. Well,
01:02:19
I started at the beginning of term four.
01:02:21
Um so what was it late October? And um
01:02:27
so it was an assembly. the chair of the
01:02:29
board welcomed me and I spoke to the
01:02:31
boys and told them that I was going to
01:02:33
be observing and um that had largely
01:02:36
happened in term four and um once I'd
01:02:39
sort of observed enough then there'd be
01:02:41
some changes made for the beginning of
01:02:43
um the following year what was that 2013
01:02:45
the following year and um
01:02:49
uh I think the seven formers all went
01:02:51
thank god for that um and here's this
01:02:54
new guy who's who's he you know they'd
01:02:56
had John Morris for 20 years so um they
01:02:59
weren't ready to have some new guy in
01:03:00
the last term, but but they all were
01:03:02
moving off to do Cambridge exams anyway.
01:03:04
So I they were only on campus for maybe
01:03:06
two or 3 weeks. Um but then uh
01:03:11
the second day I I went to the lectern
01:03:14
at assembly and said, "Okay, I've I've
01:03:17
finished watching." Um and there's stuff
01:03:20
that has to change. Just for example, um
01:03:23
you know, a flagship school doesn't have
01:03:25
litter on the grounds. So there won't be
01:03:27
any litter on the grounds today. So
01:03:29
that's my first my my finishing of
01:03:31
observation is we're now having no
01:03:34
rubbish on the grounds. And um this is
01:03:37
how we're going to do it. And I went
01:03:38
through a process with them of what my
01:03:39
expectations were to get rid of rubbish.
01:03:41
And from that point on, that was sort of
01:03:44
a critical thing to change just quality
01:03:47
of environment, you know, so respect and
01:03:50
um of of the environment, respect of the
01:03:52
sort of school that they're part of. So,
01:03:53
we got rid of rubbish pretty quickly. Um
01:03:57
moved away from things like, you know,
01:03:58
form classes going around and um picking
01:04:01
up rubbish after lunch. So, the place is
01:04:02
tidy. We we'll just sort of pretend that
01:04:04
no one dropped any rubbish, but actually
01:04:06
the place was a tip. Because again if
01:04:08
you go back to any environment you know
01:04:12
you can say you are these things but and
01:04:16
you and schools market themselves for
01:04:18
example don't they on we are all these
01:04:20
things but the reality is um confirmed
01:04:23
by those who are part of the environment
01:04:25
as to whether it actually occurs. And so
01:04:28
we've been of the belief with boys is
01:04:30
that we're not fudging anything. Um,
01:04:32
we're not having open days. Like, we'll
01:04:34
bring people in on any day and they'll
01:04:36
see us for who we are and and you guys
01:04:38
have to live it on a daily basis because
01:04:40
we're not marketing. We're not we're not
01:04:42
not into marketing. We're not into all
01:04:43
this flashy stuff. We're just going to
01:04:45
be who we are. And I think the boys boys
01:04:49
buy into that. They, you know, if you're
01:04:50
going to be, again, go back to you're
01:04:52
proud of your environment, then then you
01:04:54
actually respect it and you live it on a
01:04:55
daily basis,
01:04:58
you know. I I think as humans, we just
01:04:59
want to be part of something as well.
01:05:01
Yep. part of something something
01:05:02
greater. There's there's there's another
01:05:04
saying it's like um if you get four
01:05:06
people that are smokers and you hang out
01:05:07
with them, you'll be the fifth. And you
01:05:09
four four obese people, you'll be the
01:05:11
fifth. And it works the other way as
01:05:12
well. So if if there's four four people
01:05:14
that are picking up their litter, you're
01:05:15
going to be the fifth person that picks
01:05:17
up your litter or doesn't litter in the
01:05:18
first place, I think. Yeah. Well, you
01:05:19
just won't see litter around Grammar
01:05:21
now, you know, or you you you will, but
01:05:23
you know, it's not there for long. Um
01:05:25
because they know what the standard is.
01:05:27
And when you've when you've got 2,700
01:05:29
odd um you know boys on a campus, it
01:05:32
wouldn't be hard to to tip it the other
01:05:34
way. That's the you you the philosophy
01:05:37
you just that's a James Clear Atomic
01:05:39
Habits um philosophy, isn't it? Love
01:05:42
that book. Yeah. And I tell you the
01:05:44
other books um our staff and the boys
01:05:46
will um would would expect me to mention
01:05:49
Owen Eastwood and Belonging. I don't
01:05:51
know whether you've read it. No. Um he's
01:05:53
a Kiwi. um he's a sports psychologist
01:05:56
and um he talks about the sort of the
01:05:59
the moldy philosophy of of belonging and
01:06:03
um that when we belong we actually um we
01:06:07
we we feel like we're part of something
01:06:09
bigger than ourselves and we can be
01:06:10
better. Uh and so we we talk to the boys
01:06:14
a lot about um belonging and and and
01:06:16
what and the school that they're part of
01:06:18
and how they contribute. Mhm.
01:06:21
Um something that's been huge especially
01:06:24
I think over the last decade uh while
01:06:25
you've been at Grammar is um the mental
01:06:28
health crisis in New Zealand and
01:06:29
particularly um that's a thing with
01:06:31
young men. Um what about you personally
01:06:33
like Yeah. How's your mental health been
01:06:34
over the years? Yeah. Fine. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:37
Has it been good? How um Yeah. Would you
01:06:40
describe yourself as a resilient person?
01:06:42
Yeah. Yeah. Built or made that way?
01:06:46
Um, I think when when you're growing up
01:06:49
in the in the in the 80s and you're part
01:06:51
of a family and I two older brothers who
01:06:53
beat the snot out of me most days, um,
01:06:56
then um, you learn to be resilient
01:06:57
pretty quickly, don't you? And you
01:07:00
learn, you Yeah. Well, you learn all
01:07:01
those components about natural hierarchy
01:07:04
and, um, basic respect. And if you're
01:07:06
not going to respect, then you can
01:07:07
expect a consequence, physical as it was
01:07:10
in those days from my brothers. Um but
01:07:13
um I I I I have a if you you need to be
01:07:18
able to park stuff. If you can't park
01:07:19
things, then you can allow them to eat
01:07:23
you up. So critical for me that I'm
01:07:25
physical every day. Um so that you can
01:07:28
actually blow stuff out. you can have a
01:07:30
clear head to begin the day and um that
01:07:34
um you have trusted people who you can
01:07:36
have as a sounding board to you know to
01:07:40
effectively be confidants to go hey look
01:07:42
we're dealing with this and this is a
01:07:43
bit this is this isn't that great but um
01:07:47
as long as you got people who you can
01:07:49
talk to and trust um then yeah I think
01:07:54
you can grow in resilience we actually
01:07:56
talk now to to the boys about growing in
01:07:59
anti-fragility ility, you know, where if
01:08:02
we in an exam, you know, people now
01:08:04
shying away from exams and everything
01:08:06
needs to be sort of standardsbased
01:08:08
assessment. Let's not have too many
01:08:09
exams. Well, we'd say you just build
01:08:12
resilience in that. You learn how to sit
01:08:14
exams so that then that you just become
01:08:15
familiar. The more you do it, the more
01:08:17
you you're actually comfortable doing
01:08:19
it. And um so that's that's that growing
01:08:22
of anti-fragility so that when things go
01:08:26
wrong, you have the tools to be able to
01:08:28
cope.
01:08:30
Yeah. Because it seems like there's this
01:08:32
this generation where everything's
01:08:34
triggering. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Have we
01:08:38
just made our kids a bit brittle?
01:08:41
Yeah. I I I think we just have to be
01:08:43
honest with them and up front with them.
01:08:44
And um life's tough at times, eh? That's
01:08:47
life. Yeah. Sucks. Yep. And I think I I
01:08:51
actually think this generation's better
01:08:52
than than we ever were. They're clever.
01:08:56
they they um they have a high EQ. Um
01:09:01
they they actually want to contribute.
01:09:03
They just actually have to be taught by
01:09:05
us the adults. And I actually think the
01:09:07
biggest problem are actually us the
01:09:09
adults. The problem in our education
01:09:11
system is um the adults are turning
01:09:13
soft, not not the students. And so when
01:09:15
the adults are soft, then of course if
01:09:17
you're given a an easy option, what are
01:09:20
you going to take? You're going to take
01:09:21
the easy option. Of course you are as a
01:09:22
kid cuz you don't expect me to do that.
01:09:25
you through co we gave away free credits
01:09:27
and all this sort of nons well they're
01:09:29
all like thank you very much you know
01:09:30
I'm I'm hurting so uh and look there's
01:09:34
some people who genuinely were hurting
01:09:36
but there are a whole pile who actually
01:09:37
were like actually there's a game to be
01:09:39
played here and our education the NCA
01:09:42
system at the moment kids are gaming
01:09:44
because we put a system in place that
01:09:47
allows them to game so it's actually the
01:09:49
adults that are problem not not not the
01:09:51
students yeah well thanks for sharing
01:09:53
that Um, we'll move to the Instagram
01:09:56
questions now. Eh, yeah, go for it.
01:09:58
Yeah. How are you? You coping all right?
01:09:59
You're not too hot. It's good. Yeah. Um,
01:10:03
what's been your proudest moment as a
01:10:04
principal?
01:10:06
Yeah, that's a good question.
01:10:09
Uh,
01:10:13
I actually I'd go there's something a
01:10:16
little bit there are a whole pile of
01:10:18
moments where you see boys performing. I
01:10:20
just, you know, the latest production,
01:10:22
school production, the, you know, the
01:10:24
boys performing on stage, all those
01:10:26
things make you like actually pretty
01:10:28
pretty proud of what's going on in the
01:10:30
in the place. But perhaps one of the
01:10:34
things that I I feel very proud of is
01:10:36
through the co um when things were
01:10:40
turning to custard pretty pretty quickly
01:10:43
that we carried on um and we um were
01:10:47
really adamant that we wanted to give
01:10:49
the boys as much normality as possible.
01:10:51
So we ran daily assemblies um via a
01:10:55
laptop in my in my house and we and I
01:10:58
dressed every morning for assembly and
01:11:00
started with the prayer and did all
01:11:01
those sort of things so that there was
01:11:03
like we we're still a community and I'd
01:11:07
read them the the the stats for you know
01:11:09
who had been online and which form level
01:11:12
was winning in terms of completion of
01:11:13
work and um and just I actually felt not
01:11:18
at the time I didn't feel proud of that
01:11:20
but by the time we had moved move
01:11:21
through co and we were bringing kids
01:11:24
back. Um I felt pretty proud about how
01:11:26
well that went and um and how engaged we
01:11:30
kept the community.
01:11:34
Yeah, that's really Yeah. When life
01:11:36
gives you lemons, make lemon lemonade,
01:11:38
right? Yeah. Could you tell how many
01:11:40
kids were on you could tell how many
01:11:42
kids were logged on and Oh, yeah. Yeah.
01:11:44
Yeah. The technology now is phenomenal.
01:11:45
And I could we could tell how many you
01:11:48
know indivi so I was actually going on
01:11:49
to individual boys um uh so learning
01:11:52
management system I could go on to their
01:11:54
individual pages and leave a comment in
01:11:55
their in their chat room and go hey I
01:11:57
see you haven't done your homework on
01:11:58
blah blah blah so it was quite good that
01:12:01
sort of you know to be able to engage at
01:12:03
that level um and there was sort of
01:12:05
funny things that happened as well I
01:12:08
remember you having to live stream and
01:12:10
and the head of technology was telling
01:12:12
me how to you know live stream from my
01:12:14
laptop and He and I remember the first
01:12:16
couple he told me how to start up but um
01:12:19
I'd forgotten how to finish it and so I
01:12:22
think there the general laughter in the
01:12:24
grammar community was when I slam my my
01:12:26
laptop shut sort of like well that's
01:12:28
that's the end of that. Oh my god I'm
01:12:30
the I'm the same I'm not a boomer but
01:12:32
I've got big boomer energy I can't
01:12:34
figure this stuff out. Um someone wants
01:12:36
to know what's yeah what's your toughest
01:12:37
moment as a a principal? Have you dealt
01:12:40
with many um like tragic Yeah. teen
01:12:43
deaths? Yeah, Palmy Boys in particular.
01:12:46
Um, my first year at Palmy Boys, six
01:12:49
students got killed um in different
01:12:52
instance in incidences and I still drive
01:12:57
if I'm if you're heading through um
01:12:58
towards Hunter, there's still still a
01:13:01
farm gate that I drive past where I
01:13:02
know, you know, two boys were killed um
01:13:05
trying to cross a railway crossing. It
01:13:07
still sends a shiver up my spine as I
01:13:09
drive past that on State Highway One. um
01:13:12
they're the toughest moments is is a a
01:13:15
student uh being killed or a or a staff
01:13:18
member um being killed or a staff member
01:13:20
dying there just because look rocks the
01:13:23
community rocks the and you're helpless
01:13:26
there's absolutely nothing you can do
01:13:27
you can be there and you can listen but
01:13:30
there's not actually anything you can do
01:13:32
what's the biggest challenge facing New
01:13:34
Zealand schools in 2025
01:13:37
uh well we need to actually have an
01:13:40
assessment system that's rigorous ous
01:13:41
enough to to stand scrutiny on an
01:13:44
international footing. Um, if you look
01:13:46
at all of our OECD rates, they're going
01:13:48
down. So, we actually need to be um have
01:13:52
have a have a rigorous assessment system
01:13:54
and hopefully Erica Stanford will do
01:13:55
something about that. Um, you know,
01:13:57
pretty quickly. Um, and we need to be
01:14:01
attracting um quality teachers back into
01:14:04
the profession so that um we have
01:14:07
specialists in front of um students. And
01:14:09
again, if you go back, boys students
01:14:12
know who their good teachers are and who
01:14:15
who aren't. And um the respect comes
01:14:18
from them being the expert in the front
01:14:20
of the room. Nothing's going to replace
01:14:22
that.
01:14:25
You just mentioned um Erica Stanford,
01:14:27
the um education minister. Um, we ruled
01:14:30
out politics before, but could you do
01:14:32
like some sort of advisory role and and
01:14:35
you know, so you're on the um in that
01:14:37
ecosystem, but you're not actually I
01:14:39
don't know whether they'd want me
01:14:40
advising them.
01:14:44
Yeah. Um, is there a difference between
01:14:46
boys and girls when it comes to
01:14:48
education?
01:14:50
Ultimately, no. I don't think I think
01:14:53
there are a whole pile of girls who
01:14:55
would love to be in an environment like
01:14:57
ours. Not just because it's a male
01:14:58
dominant male, you know, a whole pile of
01:15:00
boys there, but I think there's a whole
01:15:02
pile of girls who actually there are
01:15:04
girls who would actually benefit from
01:15:06
and enjoy being part of a structured
01:15:08
environment um where where where um
01:15:11
you're getting specialist teaching,
01:15:12
there is some fun being had, there's
01:15:14
sport being played, there's music, etc.
01:15:16
the struct I think we we have moved too
01:15:19
far as a country to
01:15:22
um you know anything goes in education
01:15:24
and we're just just a it's just too
01:15:26
loose and I think there are whole there
01:15:29
are girls will benefit as much as boys
01:15:32
will uh from you know strong standards
01:15:35
environment um from specialist teachers
01:15:37
in fact you know the the girls should
01:15:40
schools should be beating us they they
01:15:42
should be producing better results than
01:15:44
we are And um and while um that and and
01:15:49
if if the girls schools actually do move
01:15:52
into a um examination based system like
01:15:55
Cambridge then um and they and they have
01:15:58
good quality specialist teachers,
01:15:59
they'll they'll thump us every day.
01:16:02
What are some of the biggest
01:16:02
misconceptions people have about teenage
01:16:04
boys today?
01:16:06
Oh, that they don't care. Um they're
01:16:09
lazy. um that they um
01:16:13
uh you know there are there is all the
01:16:15
the gaming stuff and but remember it's
01:16:17
the adults who've put all that stuff
01:16:18
into place. If the adults actually put
01:16:20
restraints constraints around that for
01:16:22
them then the boys will respond. Um
01:16:25
don't underestimate don't underestimate
01:16:27
boys at all. Um they are astute um
01:16:32
astute uh young men who um I think I I
01:16:35
actually think our country is going to
01:16:36
be in in great hands with the
01:16:38
generations that's coming through. Mhm.
01:16:40
Um
01:16:42
yeah, it would it sort of concerns me
01:16:45
and I I do get grumpy um some days when
01:16:49
members of the general public might go,
01:16:51
you know, there's there's grammar
01:16:52
spewing down the street, you know, at
01:16:54
3:15 because they're just flooding, you
01:16:57
know, New Market and sort of Mountain
01:17:00
Road and seems because it's just it is a
01:17:02
flood. Um and they then make sort of
01:17:05
judgments about the boys. And one of the
01:17:08
things you have to keep reminding boys,
01:17:09
they're not not very sort of spatially
01:17:12
aware. And so we continually remind them
01:17:15
that like look up and and just move
01:17:17
around members of the general public. Um
01:17:20
they they will um but we often get, you
01:17:25
know, comments about how rude the boys
01:17:26
are because, you know, there's just they
01:17:28
all walk down the foot path um heads
01:17:31
down on their phones. Yeah. Heads down.
01:17:33
That's your fault. They haven't had
01:17:33
their phone all day. Yeah. notifications
01:17:36
to catch up on. But I I mean I Yeah,
01:17:39
those there are you can be a grumpy
01:17:41
adult or um you could actually just be
01:17:44
happy and if you actually looked at them
01:17:45
in the eyes and engaged with them, I
01:17:47
think for 90 99% of them, you're going
01:17:49
to get a wonderful response and a smile
01:17:50
back from them.
01:17:53
Well, I think if there was 3,000 of any
01:17:56
organization like walking through a new
01:17:57
market at any point of day, like it
01:17:59
would be like alarming or intimidating
01:18:01
or whatever you want to call it. Yeah.
01:18:03
Um, how have the needs, by the way,
01:18:06
these these are just questions from
01:18:07
Instagram, so if there's no answer for
01:18:09
some of them, you can you can pass. How
01:18:10
have the needs of teenage boys changed
01:18:12
over your 13 years at grammar?
01:18:15
Have they or are they fundamentally the
01:18:16
same? I think don't think the boys needs
01:18:18
have changed. I think um I think they
01:18:24
um
01:18:26
when when we coach young men and you
01:18:30
know basics of sideline behavior or
01:18:33
sporting behavior or they actually soak
01:18:36
it up and and um respond and I I just
01:18:39
think um there are so many moments I'm
01:18:42
proud of our boys when they're in an
01:18:44
independent setting through the we talk
01:18:47
about you know the James Kirst stuff.
01:18:49
Um, All Blacks, Lessons of Leadership
01:18:51
and Redhead, Bluehead. Great book. And,
01:18:53
um, you know, be bluehead. Like, there
01:18:57
are too many people who have biases
01:19:00
about the school that their son or
01:19:02
daughter is at. um rather than actually
01:19:04
looking up and going they're they're a
01:19:06
teenager and they're at grammar or
01:19:08
they're at um you know whatever school
01:19:11
that we just let's just give them a give
01:19:14
them a break for where they're at and
01:19:15
look at the their behavior and judge
01:19:16
them on their behavior rather than
01:19:18
actually our own prejudices. Yeah. What
01:19:21
role does the school play in helping
01:19:22
young men navigate mental health,
01:19:24
masculinity and identity? Oh, that's a
01:19:26
big question, is it? Yeah, heaps. Um so
01:19:29
we we have now a team of student
01:19:32
services team um where um so we four
01:19:36
full-time counselors and they are
01:19:38
counselors in the um in the we we've
01:19:42
turned it into a model maybe five seven
01:19:44
years ago where the counselor is like an
01:19:47
American counselor where they're guiding
01:19:48
them on academic stuff but also on head
01:19:51
and heart stuff and we moved in that
01:19:54
manner because again boys I think men
01:19:58
probably in general were not necessarily
01:19:59
good at, you know, asking for help. And
01:20:02
so we've we've put it in a manner where
01:20:04
they can readily do so. And so they
01:20:08
might be going in to get some help on um
01:20:10
subject pathway or university pathway,
01:20:13
but then while they're there with a
01:20:15
counselor and the counselor goes,
01:20:15
"Anything else?" You know, um how you
01:20:18
feeling that he could then have the
01:20:20
opportunity to go, "Oh, actually, how
01:20:21
yeah, mom and dad split up." So, we
01:20:24
provide them the the the context to be
01:20:27
able to actually ask in a manner that
01:20:29
they don't feel like they're being
01:20:31
they're being weak or um they're being
01:20:33
prompted to do so. Mhm. And it works.
01:20:36
Self-referral rate um has increased by
01:20:38
70% um through that time and is held
01:20:41
there, you know, really consistently. Um
01:20:43
so, they they they are asking for help
01:20:45
and we're we're providing in the best
01:20:48
manner possible. How good. and and the
01:20:49
the feedback you get up top is that um a
01:20:51
lot of the boys are quite open to Yeah.
01:20:53
talking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are.
01:20:55
Yeah. Yeah. And when they know it's
01:20:56
confidential and it's not going anywhere
01:20:58
else, that big brother's not watching
01:20:59
them in that regard, then Yeah.
01:21:01
Absolutely they are. They are. Yeah. I
01:21:03
feel like things have probably changed
01:21:04
since you and I were at school, but um
01:21:06
back then you you wouldn't show any sort
01:21:08
of weakness or vulnerability because it
01:21:09
would just be thrown back at you.
01:21:11
Absolutely. Yeah. Um what does the
01:21:14
phrase toxic masculinity mean to you?
01:21:17
Yeah. Well, there are there are out
01:21:19
there some um models some um Andrew
01:21:22
Tates of this world who are actually
01:21:24
presenting the wrong thing to boys. Um
01:21:27
and um for us uh we're we're absolutely
01:21:31
coaching boys in the opposite direction
01:21:33
about how we go back to who am I and
01:21:36
where do I fit in and how do I treat
01:21:39
others, you know, and and particularly
01:21:41
how do I treat members of the opposite
01:21:43
sex. Um, and so we're quite traditional
01:21:46
in in in those sort of um conversations
01:21:49
with boys um and the sort of things
01:21:51
we're actually encouraging them to be
01:21:52
like be a gentleman like and you don't
01:21:55
just have to be a gentleman um opening
01:21:57
the door for someone else not just for
01:21:59
adults um but perhaps for your peers
01:22:01
because those things actually end up
01:22:04
sending a message about who you are and
01:22:06
your own personal integrity uh rather
01:22:08
than actually listening to this this
01:22:10
nonsense um that really dangerous stuff
01:22:12
that is online and they are they are
01:22:15
living in an online environment. So,
01:22:17
it's just coming at them um thick and
01:22:19
fast and um they've already access to
01:22:21
porn pornography and all of that sort of
01:22:23
stuff. We're coaching them about the
01:22:25
harmful impact of of pornography, you
01:22:27
know, all of those sort of things. There
01:22:29
are um we are we are providing them
01:22:31
advice and guidance on is is this
01:22:33
classes or is this something that you
01:22:35
just drop casually in assemblies or uh
01:22:37
yep, assembly? I'd talk to boys as we're
01:22:41
going into Mother's Day. talk to boys
01:22:43
about, you know, having conversations,
01:22:45
showing respect to significant females
01:22:47
in your lives. Um, just prompting them
01:22:50
because it's not that the majority of
01:22:53
boys don't want to be doing those
01:22:54
things. It's just actually I've just got
01:22:57
up and this life's tough. I got to wake
01:22:59
up first. So, giving them giving them
01:23:02
prompts um and doing it in regular um
01:23:05
intervals means that hopefully they it
01:23:08
does get locked in. And you can tell in
01:23:10
in an assembly environment when they are
01:23:12
listening cuz it's not only silent which
01:23:14
which which I guess it always is. Um but
01:23:17
it's still um and um so you actually
01:23:20
know when there is content that they
01:23:22
they're going okay we should be you know
01:23:24
taking this in. Yeah. They're engaged.
01:23:26
Yeah. Um what do you wish parents
01:23:28
understood better about their teenage
01:23:29
sons?
01:23:32
Um,
01:23:36
I think most parents are probably pretty
01:23:38
realistic. The the funny thing that we
01:23:41
we often remind parents that their boys
01:23:44
um are not necessarily the same person
01:23:47
that they are at home, you know, they
01:23:49
they actually they get, you know, some
01:23:52
you got to have a release sometimes. So,
01:23:54
the way you actually, you know, you
01:23:56
leave your bedroom, etc., etc., might be
01:23:58
very different to the or the way they
01:24:00
are in a in a school environment, an
01:24:02
organized environment. And I know, you
01:24:04
know, we often will get parents ring us
01:24:06
and go, can you tell them to have a
01:24:07
haircut or can you, you know, blah blah
01:24:09
blah. Uh, so I I I think most parents
01:24:12
are realistic, but they should
01:24:14
understand that um there are different
01:24:16
they effectively going into a work
01:24:18
environment too where they're largely
01:24:21
pretty impressive.
01:24:23
What do you see as the biggest challenge
01:24:24
teenage boys face today? online context,
01:24:28
right? Yeah. The they're living in a
01:24:30
digital environment and, you know, you
01:24:33
think Andrew Tate and toxic masculinity,
01:24:35
those the the content that is just um um
01:24:40
prescribed, you know, through social
01:24:42
media, that's they're just being
01:24:44
targeted that we really have to be
01:24:46
coaching them about how they can
01:24:48
actually discard that, how they can get
01:24:50
off their devices um for a good period
01:24:53
of the day. And that that's one of the
01:24:54
beauties of, you know, five hour five
01:24:56
hour teaching framework in a day where
01:24:58
you haven't got a phone. At least, you
01:24:59
know, for that period of time, you're
01:25:00
away from a screen, but there are too
01:25:03
many that are just addicted to um online
01:25:06
environment. Oh, I've um I'm I'm
01:25:09
prepared to put my hand up and say I've
01:25:10
got a terrible addiction to, you know,
01:25:12
electronic devices. And I can't imagine
01:25:14
how chaotic I would have been as a
01:25:15
teenage boy. Yeah. Um crazy. Actually,
01:25:18
there's another book, you may have
01:25:19
already read it, but if not, you'd
01:25:20
really enjoy it called The Dose Effect.
01:25:22
Oh, I haven't read that. I've heard
01:25:23
about that, but I haven't read it. Dose
01:25:24
effect stands for dopamine, oxytocin,
01:25:27
serotonin and endorphins. And just about
01:25:29
the impact that devices have and yeah,
01:25:31
you know, having device breaks and
01:25:33
things like that. Yeah. Um,
01:25:38
how can parents better support the
01:25:40
emotional well-being of their sons,
01:25:42
especially during high stress times like
01:25:44
exams, breakups, etc.?
01:25:46
Oh, listen to them. You know, I think um
01:25:50
being available at the end of the day um
01:25:52
just, you know, without again with if we
01:25:56
could put our devices away and you know,
01:25:59
as parents, you're living a busy life.
01:26:00
But if you can actually have an agreed
01:26:02
time, if you can sit down at the dinner
01:26:04
table together and if you can have a
01:26:06
conversation and ask them, you know,
01:26:07
what what went well today? um or then
01:26:11
you're actually preparing a a a scenario
01:26:13
in a situation where where things
01:26:15
haven't gone well that they'll be
01:26:16
prepared to share it with you. When
01:26:18
they're not prepared to share it with
01:26:19
you, that's when they the the danger
01:26:21
really strikes for for young men is
01:26:23
because they'll bottle it up and they'll
01:26:25
think and assume that no one cares when
01:26:27
actually they do. So just continuing to
01:26:29
be there uh being prepared to listen and
01:26:32
and show you care is is will make a big
01:26:34
difference. H are there any red flags
01:26:36
that parents should watch out for that
01:26:38
might indicate a teenage boy is
01:26:39
struggling but not speaking up. She
01:26:41
probably just answered that just you
01:26:43
probably won't be talking. Yeah, they
01:26:45
just they won't they and I wouldn't be
01:26:47
afraid to actually contact the school.
01:26:49
You like we have parents ringing with
01:26:51
saying hey look my son's showing X Y and
01:26:53
Zed. We would always in those situations
01:26:56
go look we we'll get a counselor to
01:26:58
touch base with them. It'll just be a an
01:27:00
impromptu sort of a thing that I mean
01:27:02
might sort of bump into them in the
01:27:03
grounds and and and do a just a little
01:27:05
check um because you know you just don't
01:27:08
know what the context is. It could be
01:27:10
you know the cyber bullying thing is is
01:27:13
a big thing now um where um the in the
01:27:17
good old days if you were getting
01:27:19
bullied you you'd at least you could
01:27:20
walk home and um you might be away from
01:27:23
it. But if too many of these kids are
01:27:26
actually, you know, in their room and
01:27:28
have devices, ready access to devices in
01:27:31
their room where actually that can
01:27:33
continue, it's dangerous.
01:27:36
Yeah. It's Yeah. Yeah. Cuz home was like
01:27:38
a safe haven um when I was growing up
01:27:40
and now I'm guessing the the bullying
01:27:42
they experience online at home is even
01:27:43
more chaotic than what you'd have
01:27:45
potentially in the playground, you know.
01:27:47
Well, it can be. Yeah. So they I think
01:27:49
you know good parents are are are just
01:27:52
listening to their their their sons and
01:27:54
daughters or and talking to them and and
01:27:56
doing so in a in a casual setting. I
01:27:59
think one of the the things that I I
01:28:01
think if you're ever needing to talk to
01:28:04
your son and and he's not a talker, then
01:28:07
take him put him in the car and go for a
01:28:09
drive somewhere. And when you speak when
01:28:11
you're sitting shoulderto-shoulder, he's
01:28:13
not having to look at you in the eye.
01:28:14
And when he's not looking at the eye, he
01:28:16
can actually talk and and it can become
01:28:18
a stream of consciousness. And that's,
01:28:20
you know, that is a really good way to
01:28:21
allow him the opportunity to open up.
01:28:24
That's a great tip for that one. If you
01:28:26
could wave a magic wand and change one
01:28:28
thing about the New Zealand education
01:28:29
system, what would it be? Get rid of
01:28:31
NCA. Don't you hate NCAA?
01:28:35
Well, NCAA needs to change. Um, yeah.
01:28:39
Um,
01:28:42
yeah. If you well I would disestablish
01:28:44
the ministry. That'd be the first thing
01:28:46
I would do and I' I'd be I'd be finding
01:28:49
key people um across the country who
01:28:51
could actually be in a secundered basis
01:28:53
where you'd actually go right now let's
01:28:55
have a think tank and let's go through
01:28:58
uh with sorting out the curriculum some
01:28:59
of the stuff that um is being led by
01:29:01
Erica Stanford and the curriculum is
01:29:03
superb and we should we we shouldn't
01:29:05
underestimate how powerful that will be
01:29:07
and and you can you can hear the
01:29:09
resistance from various um educational
01:29:12
groups and I think that's actually a
01:29:14
really good thing because um it means
01:29:16
that things are getting a little bit
01:29:17
more rigorous. Um yeah, I would I would
01:29:19
uh change NCA. I'd change NCA back to a
01:29:22
norm reference system. I'd put UEIE a
01:29:24
university entrance back into the hands
01:29:27
of um universities and ask them to be
01:29:30
setting the examinations nationwide and
01:29:32
that we'd have this the same system
01:29:35
right across the country. Uh because
01:29:37
right now we don't we you can't actually
01:29:39
compare um results across schools in in
01:29:42
in our national qualification at the
01:29:43
moment.
01:29:45
What keeps you up at night and what
01:29:46
gives you hope? Not much keeps me up at
01:29:49
night. Um I I I I you know I can I
01:29:52
register my sleep and I check with what
01:29:54
my deep sleep is and I'm out cold after
01:29:57
about 2 minutes. Um I I think it's no
01:30:02
not I'm not
01:30:04
the things that I'm worried about I
01:30:06
would
01:30:08
act upon. So, uh, it's just as they
01:30:12
stack up, you got to make sure you got
01:30:13
them in priority order so that you keep
01:30:15
on top of them. So, I'm not too
01:30:17
concerned about, well, I'm concerned
01:30:19
about the state of education, but I
01:30:20
can't actually control that. So, if I'm
01:30:22
looking at what the controllables are,
01:30:24
the things that are within my control or
01:30:26
that I could have some influence on, I'm
01:30:28
trying to have that influence and and
01:30:30
prepared to speak up about those things.
01:30:32
So, that doesn't bother me. I hand on
01:30:34
heart think I'm doing the best I can,
01:30:36
then I'll sleep well at night. M what's
01:30:38
a book that every parent of a teenage
01:30:40
boy should read? Belonging. Oh, an
01:30:43
eastward belonging. Yeah, no doubt about
01:30:45
it. Um we provided a book to every
01:30:47
single staff member. I've provided it to
01:30:50
um a lot of our prefects as they come
01:30:52
through. Um if it really does speak to
01:30:57
what I think any boy um worldwide would
01:31:02
understand is if you have a sense of
01:31:04
belonging, you actually you have a sense
01:31:06
of selfworth. And when you got a happy
01:31:09
son or when you got a happy boy and you
01:31:12
know if he's got mates and he's and he's
01:31:15
happy then um some of the other and
01:31:18
they're good mates um then things are
01:31:21
going to take care of themselves. if
01:31:22
he's coming from a good home too.
01:31:25
What are some of the some of the
01:31:26
buzzwords the kids these days are using?
01:31:28
What do you hear on the playground?
01:31:30
I don't listen to what they say on the
01:31:32
playground.
01:31:34
And I'm not really interested in what
01:31:35
their vocabulary is cuz we're trying to
01:31:37
influence their vocabulary rather than
01:31:39
they like they'll say things and I go, I
01:31:41
got no idea what you're talking about.
01:31:43
like don't don't talk to me in text
01:31:46
speak cuz I still send you know full
01:31:49
sentences and make sure my grammar is
01:31:52
correct and my daughter Molly will say
01:31:55
to me why why you do you know when you
01:31:57
send that text like that that actually
01:32:00
makes you look like you're angry I'm
01:32:01
like how does it make me look like angry
01:32:02
just grammatically correct you do not
01:32:04
write full sentences so I don't like a
01:32:07
full stop makes you look angry I don't
01:32:09
know what it is I've given up trying to
01:32:11
understand what their what their lang
01:32:13
languages and um so I I keep saying to
01:32:16
them my role is to speak to you in in in
01:32:18
an appropriate language to try and
01:32:20
educate you. I don't need to be educated
01:32:21
on what your language is. You must
01:32:23
overhear some colorful colorful stuff
01:32:25
though when you when you around.
01:32:27
Totally. Yeah. What did they when when I
01:32:29
was at when I was at school it was um it
01:32:30
was all homophobic slurs. It was you
01:32:32
know homo or [ __ ] or whatever. You look
01:32:36
back now and it's it's quite alarming
01:32:37
because um during my 5 years at Palmy
01:32:40
Boy High, I don't think there was anyone
01:32:41
that was um like openly gay and by
01:32:43
percentage there would have been like
01:32:44
you know many many gay boys. Yeah. I
01:32:47
think that though this generation are
01:32:50
much more inclusive than and and
01:32:53
accepting um of people for their
01:32:56
differences um than we ever were. We're
01:32:58
terrible. Um and you know when when you
01:33:02
think about the school environment in
01:33:03
the 1980s um she's a very different
01:33:06
space now. The boys are are very
01:33:08
accepting. We do we do talk to them
01:33:10
about homophobic language because you
01:33:12
know those sort of terminology to to
01:33:14
degrade um but are are still around.
01:33:19
There's no doubt about it. But we
01:33:21
continue to speak to them about what the
01:33:23
impact is on and how do you know what
01:33:24
someone else is actually thinking. And I
01:33:26
I think majority of um majority of
01:33:29
students today actually probably um got
01:33:32
a hell of a lot greater sense about you
01:33:34
know the diverse nature of society than
01:33:36
we do.
01:33:38
Yeah. More empathy. And I I I think a
01:33:40
lot of that comes down to potentially
01:33:42
the communication explaining to them
01:33:43
like why it's a bad thing rather than
01:33:45
just don't don't say it. Um does Oakland
01:33:47
Grammar have a school song? Yeah. Yeah.
01:33:50
Are you gonna sing us out for the
01:33:51
podcast? It's entirely in Latin. So, no,
01:33:54
I don't think I will. It's funny like I
01:33:57
I can still remember like um on Palmer
01:34:00
North Boys High two songs. Yeah. Yeah.
01:34:03
Nhon, you know. Yeah. No, Grammarss is
01:34:06
um fully in Latin and uh the boys boys
01:34:09
sing it well. Um we sing every week um
01:34:12
in a semester. every Friday we we sing
01:34:14
and but interestingly enough they would
01:34:17
they would actually prefer to sing like
01:34:19
a a wire like kawata or um th those sort
01:34:23
of um those sort of hymns or songs uh
01:34:26
and something that's sort of catchy but
01:34:29
they will sing they will sing the school
01:34:31
song with a hell of a lot of pride so
01:34:33
have can you hold a note are you going
01:34:35
to sing us oh no let me give you this
01:34:38
will go this will go viral on the on the
01:34:40
school platforms I tell you the there's
01:34:42
probably a a young man somewhere well
01:34:45
who was it was Palmy Boys. Um he'd be an
01:34:48
old boy now because in my very first
01:34:49
year I reintroduced singing at Palmy
01:34:52
Boys because I remember you know Viv
01:34:53
Beaven on the piano you know with his
01:34:55
hair going everywhere and and um sort of
01:34:58
thumping the piano as we were having to
01:35:00
we were being yelled at to sing. Um but
01:35:02
I remember what that made us feel like
01:35:06
you were together and um so I said we're
01:35:10
reintroducing singing and after the
01:35:12
first day I introduced singing this I
01:35:14
was leaving assembly and um this little
01:35:17
fellow comes up to me goes Sarah can I
01:35:19
speak to you said yes sure he said I I
01:35:22
think it's fantastic that you've
01:35:24
introduced singing it's just fantastic I
01:35:26
was like great I bet I got could I give
01:35:29
you some advice yeah sure far say,
01:35:32
"Could you step away from the
01:35:33
microphone, sir?"
01:35:36
So, you ask anyone, like, "I step away
01:35:38
from the microphone because you don't
01:35:40
want to hear me singing." That's savage.
01:35:42
How much How much longer have you got in
01:35:43
the role? Have you Have you thought
01:35:45
about an exit exit strategy? No, not
01:35:47
really. Uh, no. I don't I the only I
01:35:50
still love it. Yeah. No, I think it's a
01:35:52
privilege. Um and um I was actually
01:35:57
walking through the school grounds after
01:35:58
watching um game of hockey on the on the
01:36:01
turf one night. Sort of walking up
01:36:02
through the school grounds and it was
01:36:04
lit and I was like going it is it is
01:36:07
pretty privileged to to be in the in the
01:36:10
position of of headmaster of grammar. Um
01:36:13
the one thing I don't want to do is
01:36:15
outstay your welcome. You know I think
01:36:18
hopefully I can read the room on that.
01:36:21
Um, and how would you know?
01:36:24
Um, I think I'll know. I think I think
01:36:26
I'll know when it's time to pass the
01:36:29
baton on. And I I would want to do that
01:36:31
earlier rather than later. I don't want
01:36:32
to wait. So, I won't I won't hang
01:36:35
around. I'll make sure that that it does
01:36:37
happen early enough so that the school's
01:36:39
first rather than, you know, who the
01:36:41
headmaster of the day is. Our our job my
01:36:44
job is to be, you know, the guardian of
01:36:46
grammar while I'm in the seat. And if I
01:36:49
can, you know, leave the jersey in a
01:36:51
better place using James Kur's uh
01:36:52
language, then I've performed my role
01:36:55
and hopefully I've prepared some
01:36:57
succession plans so that someone else
01:36:58
can come on and take it to another
01:37:00
level. And in terms of legacy, how how
01:37:02
would you like to be remembered for the
01:37:04
role that you've played in boys
01:37:05
education in New Zealand?
01:37:08
Um, I I I would hope well I would hope
01:37:11
that I'd be seen as someone who has been
01:37:14
a um an advocate for the standards in
01:37:18
New Zealand education and
01:37:21
um I I guess someone who has for people
01:37:25
who would know me in the role that I've
01:37:28
had a genuine care for for the boys and
01:37:30
for our staff. M I mean if the worst
01:37:32
thing someone can says about you is that
01:37:34
you're you know you're old school or
01:37:36
you're stuck in the past. I mean it's
01:37:37
not bad is it? I don't mind. I don't
01:37:39
mind that. The people people who sort of
01:37:41
hurl abuse at me. I love it when you
01:37:43
know you're going somewhere and they
01:37:45
hurl abuse at you in a car and it
01:37:46
finishes with sir.
01:37:50
So like cheers. I'll take that. What's
01:37:53
abuse? Oh you get a few exploitives. you
01:37:56
know,
01:37:58
largely they're about grammar. You know,
01:38:00
grammar, sir.
01:38:03
You just undid all your all your work.
01:38:05
Oh, good. Um, and last one. Are you
01:38:08
proud of yourself?
01:38:10
I don't really think about that.
01:38:15
I don't really think about that. I
01:38:17
haven't really thought about that. Um,
01:38:21
I'm
01:38:23
proud of I'm proud of grammar. proud of
01:38:25
my family and I guess ultimately it
01:38:28
means I'm I'm probably proud of what I'm
01:38:31
doing. I love what I'm doing and um
01:38:36
and I can see the impact of having an
01:38:39
effective team doing what we're doing
01:38:41
and I we really we need we need a school
01:38:45
like grammar in this country. We need it
01:38:47
is while it's an outlier um we need a
01:38:50
school like grammar who is going to that
01:38:52
is going to continue to be you know a um
01:38:56
I guess belligerent um in the setting of
01:38:59
standards for for boys education.
01:39:03
Yeah it's only going to get harder and
01:39:04
harder isn't it?
01:39:06
Yeah I think so I think we're in a good
01:39:08
position. I I I really think we're in a
01:39:10
really good position and I think there
01:39:12
are actually quite there are now across
01:39:14
this country quite a number of heads of
01:39:16
boys schools who um you know while in
01:39:20
their communities are they're very very
01:39:21
different communities to what the
01:39:22
grammar community is you know is a
01:39:24
privileged community in the heart of
01:39:26
central Oakland um but I do think that
01:39:28
there are a whole pile of schools across
01:39:30
the country boy schools across the
01:39:32
country who are working in in unison
01:39:35
with with the same values and the same
01:39:37
expectations that we've got. Yeah. Hey,
01:39:39
by the way, that last question, um, are
01:39:41
you proud of yourself? What, just out of
01:39:43
curiosity, why do you think that's such
01:39:44
a hard one to answer? I asked that to
01:39:47
most of my guests, and it's, um, a lot
01:39:48
of people are very sheepish about
01:39:50
answering um or struggle to answer. Do
01:39:53
you think it's a Kiwi thing? Like it
01:39:54
seems boastful if you say you're proud
01:39:55
of yourself or what do you what do you
01:39:57
think?
01:39:59
Um,
01:40:02
perhaps that's in our DNA.
01:40:05
I I I don't know. Oh, I just haven't
01:40:07
really I don't think I've ever been
01:40:09
asked that in all fairness dorm and and
01:40:12
it's not something I think in this role,
01:40:18
you know, I think I said to, you know,
01:40:19
it's a it's a vocation and so you sort
01:40:22
of living this this role. Um, and so you
01:40:26
sort of become one with with with
01:40:30
grammar. Um, and and my my kids would
01:40:33
probably say that too, even though, you
01:40:35
know, two of them are grammar boys. Um,
01:40:37
my daughter would say, you know, if you
01:40:39
ever want to talk to dad, you say
01:40:40
grammar first and then he listens. Um,
01:40:44
and so you sort of become so I I don't
01:40:47
know that we spend much time while I I
01:40:51
would reflect on how I could be better
01:40:54
cuz I I think there is always room to to
01:40:58
be to be better, I haven't really
01:41:00
thought about, are you proud of what
01:41:01
you've done. Um,
01:41:04
and I it's almost like that's that's an
01:41:08
endpoint conversation to have with
01:41:09
yourself is sort of like if you go if
01:41:12
I'm when I'm leaving, would I be proud
01:41:14
of what I've done? Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
01:41:18
It's interesting, eh? Yeah. Maybe that's
01:41:20
um a curse of having like a growth
01:41:21
mindset. You just don't allow yourself
01:41:23
to sort of stop and reflect on what
01:41:25
you've done when you're mid game. Maybe.
01:41:27
I don't know. Tim O' Conor aka Mr.
01:41:31
Okconor aka sir. Um mate, this has been
01:41:34
a blast. Thank you so much for coming on
01:41:36
the podcast today. I really appreciate
01:41:37
it. Some really cool insights there and
01:41:39
it's been wonderful. Yeah. Cheers.
01:41:41
Thanks, Tom.
