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>> Heather McCrae, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thanks, Dom. It's great to be here.
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>> It's great to have you here. I I don't
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know how this happens, but um you were
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my uh maths tutor um out of school hours
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when I was 14. Um so you were an adult
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at the time. I was a kid. And now, how
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do you look younger than me now? The
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maths the maths doesn't stack up. Well,
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I hear you're running marathons, so uh I
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think you're stacking up pretty well,
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Tom.
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>> Yeah. Oh, thank you.
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>> Going strong.
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>> So, here the McCrae, um the head
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headmaster, do you say or head mistress?
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>> No, principal.
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>> Principal. The principal of Dio. And
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it's a role that you've had for the last
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17 years.
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>> Yes, it is. Yeah.
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>> So, I was thinking about this this
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morning. So, the the girls that are in
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the final year of school at Dio now,
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they were born the year you begun.
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>> Yes.
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>> Yeah,
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>> that's correct. And uh so so I was
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having a laugh with the girls about that
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last week that some of them weren't born
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when I first started there because it
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you know uh they usually spend 13 years
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with us. Uh some of the girls spend
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longer because we started an early
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learning center as well. So they can
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start at three and a half and some of
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the girls did that. So, uh it's been um
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a wonderful journey with them and uh
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there's nothing better than watching our
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young women grow and uh graduate as uh
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strong stroppy and knowledgeable young
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women. I love it.
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>> Is stroppy a good word?
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>> Well, we want them to be able to hold
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their own uh with their beliefs and
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values and uh to know that they have uh
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equal rights in the world. And I think
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we're very l lucky to live in a country
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like New Zealand where women were the
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first to get the vote in the uh 1890s.
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Uh so we've always looked back at that
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and said, you know, what does that mean
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today for our young women and how do we
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continue uh that level of equality that
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we're looking for? It's still not quite
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there yet, Dom, and there are some uh
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areas where, you know, women are still
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not paid equally for the same work. Uh,
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and you know, it's expensive being a
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woman, more expensive than being a male.
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So, we could have a chat about that
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sometime.
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>> Well, today's the day. Well, you were
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you was I didn't even think about having
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you as a podcast guest, you know. Um,
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and then I had um Tim Oconor on, who's
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the principal of Oakland Grammar, and
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then a lot of people um came forward and
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suggested you. Um, so I thought it's um
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you'd be the perfect person for this um
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because just the the insights that
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you've got on young women in New Zealand
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um is more than most.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Yeah, it is.
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>> Why is it more expensive to be a woman?
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>> Um in terms of
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>> Have you heard of the pink tax?
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So the pink the pink tax is the way in
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which uh society I guess expects women
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to live and to present themselves and to
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be uh is often far more expensive. So so
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you could wear you know your your five
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shirts in a week uh with the same suit.
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Uh a woman has far more variation in
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what she wears. Um she also for a large
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uh percentage of her time needs products
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that males don't need uh which uh you
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will be aware of. Uh and then you know
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there's all the additional things. I
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always laugh cuz my husband's haircut
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costs $35. He's got a great head of
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hair. Uh he doesn't like the color
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because it's uh he's a red head. Um but
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but it costs me uh hundred and something
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dollars to have my hair uh done on a
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regular basis. So so there you know you
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add that up over a long period of time
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along with the clothes. Uh and women
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like to have lovely nails. I do. uh and
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and I think there's a bit about your own
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private uh feeling about how you want to
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present this yourself that's very
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important but it does cost and typically
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women are 12 to 13% paid lower than
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their male counterparts. So so women who
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end up retired end up with less money to
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retire on as well. Uh so so there's that
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uh difference between uh the genders as
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they grow and learn and develop in our
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country. M the the pay equity thing.
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What's your take on that?
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>> Um well in teaching surprisingly enough
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there is pay equity until you get to the
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uh discretionary level which is often at
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principal level. Uh and so often uh
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especially in the private school sector
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male principles are paid more than
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female counterparts. uh and sometimes
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the the strengths and having been
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principal of a very large state co-ed
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secondary school uh there's this view
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you know that male principles should be
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appointed over female principles because
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they can control the boys uh whereas in
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my experience I loved being a female
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principal in a co-educational school uh
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and it's really lovely to hear the boys
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talk openly about their family and show
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vulnerability uh rather than sometimes
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the staunch attitudes uh that you see
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from students.
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>> Uh that's what I love about being in uh
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in a all women environment. I find it um
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very open and respectful and uh people
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are happy to be vulnerable.
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>> Uh and I think that's a real strength of
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how we educate young women.
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>> Yeah. So, um it's just recently been
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announced that you're retiring
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>> um at the end of the first term in 2026
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after 17 years on the job.
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>> Um yeah, what sort of thought process
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went into that?
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>> Um I guess there's a time when you look
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at the growth and development of a
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school and uh when I first went to do I
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promised them I'd be there for 5 years.
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that had been a fairly consistent
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pattern for me with regard to my
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previous principal's roles. Uh, and I'd
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really enjoyed, I guess, getting to know
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the school uh, and implementing change.
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But there were a couple of challenges
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along the way uh, that um, that kept me
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there for longer. one was co uh and I
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didn't feel it was the right time to
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leave the school during that time and I
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felt really committed to ensuring we
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could continue to educate our young
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people and have a high level of
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normality and regularity through that
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period of disrupted learning.
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>> Uh straight out of uh 2022, we looked
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forward to normality. Uh and then 2023
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uh the floods hit and we were flooded
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twice not once during uh Oakland
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anniversary weekend but the following
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Wangi weekend uh and the cyclone that
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hit New Zealand over that time. So there
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was a lot of work with the flooding. We
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had six buildings yellow stickered and
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it was really important for me uh to be
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the consistent person through those that
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decision making to make sure that we got
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the campus back up and where it should
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be. Since then, we've also taken on a
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couple of uh climate related fixes of
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large buildings, a couple of big
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projects this year with our Shrewsbury
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block and chapel. And I wanted to see
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those through and with uh the new
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curriculum starting to roll out, uh it's
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been great to have some input into that
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and also into the new qualifications.
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So, it's a good time for a new principal
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to transition in.
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I can't imagine how nervous you were the
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um the morning of the staff meeting.
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>> Don't go there.
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>> It was an afternoon full staff meeting.
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>> Uh and um the uh chaplain could see my
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distress at announcing this and um she
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took over which was really needed. All
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right, we'll stop right there. Yeah,
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it's tough.
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>> Yeah, tears are good. It shows how much
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it means to you and how and I suppose
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how much you mean to the staff there.
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>> I guess yeah it um it's always important
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I think
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um to ensure that you know you leave the
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place better than you found it. My
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father was very much about that.
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whenever he borrowed anything, he always
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said to me, um, you know, if if you're
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using anything, doing anything, or
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borrowing anything, you give it back
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better than you found it. So, I like to
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think I've done that. Uh, Dom,
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>> we can change the subject if you want.
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>> Yes, we do. We will.
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>> Do you um Yes. So, how long ago um was
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the announcement made?
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>> Um, oh, about 3 weeks ago now. three,
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four weeks ago.
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>> Whenever you talk about it to to this
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day, you still get emotional about it.
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>> I do.
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>> It's going to be terrible next term.
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>> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. Anyway.
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>> Yeah. It's a long farewell too.
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>> It is a long tale.
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>> It is. Well, it's important that the
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board have really good lead in time uh
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and you know can appoint uh you know the
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next person going forward.
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>> Yeah, we got some tissues there if you
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>> Oh, thank you.
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>> Um what what will you miss most about
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the job? Um,
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>> and least what will you miss most and
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least of the job?
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>> Uh,
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yes, there's a lot to miss, you know, as
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part of the job because you're really
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part of a big community.
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>> Uh, and I love that, you know, the the
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challenges certainly that come along.
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Um, there's not too many parts of the
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job that, you know, that that I don't
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like. Um, in fact, probably none. Um
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because you know when people do come in
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and they want to talk about you know how
00:10:27
we can get better uh how we can improve
00:10:29
education uh it's because they've got
00:10:32
you know a um I guess an objective view
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of something. Sometimes when you're
00:10:38
working in a school you can get so
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absorbed and and uh engrossed in it uh
00:10:44
that you know the keeping a check on
00:10:46
those outside points of view whether you
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know you feel that they're good ones or
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unreasonable ones. uh everybody is worth
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listening to and I I feel that's really
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important. So uh for me even if you know
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you from time to time you you get nailed
00:11:02
over certain issues uh I think it's
00:11:05
important to also demonstrate that we've
00:11:06
got to learn as well uh as adults and as
00:11:10
an organization to make sure that we
00:11:12
move forward uh and that we can adjust
00:11:15
and adapt uh to the needs of students in
00:11:17
the parent community. So I will really
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miss that. I've met the most amazing
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people in the job. Uh and uh and I've
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seen the most inspiring young women
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leave and you know have incredible
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careers.
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>> Uh and that's been uh absolutely
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fantastic to see and be part of.
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>> What what sort of fires are you putting
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out on any given week over the last 17
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years? Like what what are the most
00:11:42
common reasons people get like suspended
00:11:44
or expelled for? Does that happen often?
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Um it doesn't happen as often uh as you
00:11:50
would think. Uh and in a school like
00:11:52
Dio, I've often said, you know, if you
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can't teach at Dio, you can't teach
00:11:56
anywhere. Uh the community are amazing.
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They are supportive and because they are
00:12:02
investing you know they already pay
00:12:04
taxes but they're investing extra uh to
00:12:07
provide an education for their daughter
00:12:09
which which is you know that there's a
00:12:12
difference and and they see that and
00:12:14
want that difference uh for their their
00:12:17
daughter and it is important uh you know
00:12:20
to realize I think the commitment that
00:12:22
we all have in the schools we're very
00:12:24
highly accountable so you know when
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parents are making such an investment,
00:12:30
you know, we take that very seriously uh
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and make sure that we are in fact
00:12:35
providing what we say we're providing uh
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and uh that it's something that's uh
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that we can continue to change and adapt
00:12:44
as the world changes around us as well.
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I think you can do that very quickly in
00:12:49
a private school. in the state sector uh
00:12:52
you you know you you were somewhat
00:12:54
limited by the speed of life with the
00:12:57
with the public sector and um you know
00:13:00
the the ministry of education and all
00:13:02
the organizations associated with it.
00:13:04
>> Uh the good thing in the private sector
00:13:06
is you can be very nimble and you can
00:13:08
set your own vision and actually then
00:13:10
make it happen. Um so so there aren't so
00:13:13
many issues. Certainly uh in my previous
00:13:16
school Pakaranga College uh I did
00:13:18
suspend far more and you'd be interested
00:13:21
to know that many more of them were boys
00:13:23
than girls.
00:13:25
>> That doesn't surprise me. What what what
00:13:27
sort of what sort of what sort of things
00:13:28
is it like like vaping on the school
00:13:30
grounds or fighting or
00:13:32
>> It's more aggression with with boys. uh
00:13:35
w with girls uh you know they look for
00:13:38
more peaceful ways typically of of
00:13:41
resolving matters uh which is which is
00:13:44
the case and I think you can you know
00:13:47
develop you know the work around a
00:13:50
school so that it's embedded in the
00:13:52
school culture as to how you deal with
00:13:54
uh disagreements and and issues that
00:13:57
arise uh between students. Uh so I think
00:14:01
probably the pattern I would have seen
00:14:03
over recent years uh is the growth of
00:14:06
issues that have um that have been
00:14:08
caused or or have played out on social
00:14:11
media
00:14:12
>> and so much more uh social media now is
00:14:16
occupying the minds of our young people
00:14:18
and can 24/7.
00:14:20
uh and it's been very hard for parents
00:14:22
to adjust to the speed of social media
00:14:25
and the way in which it can impact on a
00:14:27
student's well-being. And you know, I
00:14:30
think that's the biggest difference I've
00:14:31
seen in the in the last, you know, 10
00:14:33
years especially.
00:14:36
>> There's um a campaign at the moment um
00:14:38
called B416 to try and get social media
00:14:42
um banned for New Zealanders under the
00:14:43
age of 16. What's your take on that?
00:14:46
>> I to some extent agree with it. Uh my
00:14:49
question is how will they actually you
00:14:52
know how would that be monitored and I
00:14:54
guess we're keeping an eye on Australia.
00:14:56
Um but I do believe uh and have seen
00:14:59
examples of where it's incredibly
00:15:01
damaging uh on the well-being of a
00:15:04
person who has been exposed to all sorts
00:15:07
of behaviors online. You know, let's
00:15:09
face it, you know, we wouldn't let our
00:15:11
children go to uh a a mall at 11:00 at
00:15:15
night on their own. uh that we know uh
00:15:19
has pornographic u images uh in you know
00:15:24
that has violence uh that has uh the
00:15:27
ability to um for someone to pick them
00:15:30
up and not know who they are and take
00:15:32
them somewhere. We would never allow
00:15:34
that as parents but but many uh young
00:15:38
people are being exposed to that online
00:15:40
through social media all the time. Um
00:15:43
and you know the social the companies
00:15:45
that have supported the big uh tech
00:15:47
companies don't seem interested in
00:15:50
working out you know how to manage the
00:15:52
age of the students who go online and
00:15:55
most students you know if they're um 10
00:15:59
years old signed up to uh Facebook have
00:16:02
no or Instagram or any of the other
00:16:04
social media platforms there's no way of
00:16:07
checking how old they are and and often
00:16:10
um parents
00:16:12
unaware of all of the safety steps that
00:16:15
they can take with their students. I
00:16:17
think NetSafe has been a fantastic
00:16:19
organization to provide that uh support
00:16:21
for parents alongside of a lot of work
00:16:24
we do at the school.
00:16:25
>> Um so yes, so I I support it if if it
00:16:29
can work. Uh and I think it's really
00:16:32
important to protect the self-image that
00:16:34
our young people grow up with and
00:16:36
they're so fragile in that under
00:16:38
16year-old age group. Uh, I think the
00:16:42
older students can develop more savvy
00:16:45
attitudes to social media and certainly
00:16:48
we were one of the first schools to ban
00:16:50
phones during the school day. And you
00:16:52
know, people would phone up and say,
00:16:54
"How did you do that?" And we said,
00:16:55
"Well, we just did it." And you know the
00:16:58
the kids by and large the girls were
00:17:00
actually quite relieved because they you
00:17:03
know they did cartwheels on the lawn
00:17:05
outside uh and engaged in real games
00:17:08
that you know involved physical activity
00:17:10
rather than sitting in a corner
00:17:12
communicating with each other on their
00:17:14
phones. So we saw a massive difference
00:17:16
and I'm really pleased uh that the
00:17:18
government made steps towards you know
00:17:20
banning phones during school day.
00:17:22
>> When did you do that? God, it must have
00:17:24
gone down like a a cold cup of sick at
00:17:26
the time.
00:17:26
>> Well, it didn't actually. It was um
00:17:29
quite surprising, Dom. Uh we had very
00:17:32
little push back from parents and um and
00:17:35
hardly any push back from students at
00:17:37
all.
00:17:37
>> I don't believe that. I believe it about
00:17:38
the parents, but not the students.
00:17:40
>> Yeah. No. Was it was actually true.
00:17:42
Yeah. And it just shows you that
00:17:44
sometimes the kids are aware of issues
00:17:48
and how uh it is impacting on them. uh
00:17:51
and sometimes we as adults I think have
00:17:54
to show courage in that space uh and you
00:17:57
know know what's what we want for our
00:17:59
young people and what we could see was a
00:18:02
general decline uh typically across all
00:18:04
OECD countries of you know young people
00:18:07
growing up and while we monitor
00:18:09
well-being and we didn't see it
00:18:12
necessarily impacting on our well-being
00:18:14
at school we knew that well-being uh
00:18:18
across OECD
00:18:20
countries was declining I know.
00:18:21
>> Yeah.
00:18:21
>> Yeah.
00:18:23
>> I I mentioned on um Instagram that
00:18:25
you're coming in and I've got um I I
00:18:27
outsourced so many questions um in
00:18:29
particular in relation to I suppose
00:18:31
young women in New Zealand and uh
00:18:33
there's there's no one more I suppose
00:18:36
more equipped to talk about this than
00:18:37
what you are with your insights from the
00:18:38
last 17 years as principal of Dio. But
00:18:40
first of all um a little bit about you.
00:18:43
>> So who is who is Heather McCrae and
00:18:45
what's her backstory?
00:18:47
Okay, my my backstory is rural New
00:18:50
Zealand and uh I was born in Payura. Uh
00:18:55
our farm and you know my I had wider
00:18:59
family, uncles, my dad's uncles all had
00:19:01
farms uh in the kind of north wire
00:19:04
rapper area. Uh so uh I was raised on a
00:19:07
farm. I had all older brothers. Uh and
00:19:10
so I was the youngest girl. The boys
00:19:12
would still say I'm the spoiled girl of
00:19:14
the family, but hey, they'll get over
00:19:17
it. Uh, and but I loved uh growing up on
00:19:21
a farm. I thought it was I feel very
00:19:24
fortunate to be raised in such a
00:19:26
beautiful country uh in rural New
00:19:29
Zealand during those times. Uh I went to
00:19:32
a two-teer rural primary school and then
00:19:35
caught the bus to Tarura College uh
00:19:38
every day through to year 13. And uh I
00:19:41
loved school. I I was probably a girly
00:19:44
SWAT. Uh and I particularly loved uh
00:19:47
science and mathematics which is you
00:19:49
know where I went on to further study at
00:19:51
Massa University.
00:19:53
>> Uh so those uh you know I love animals.
00:19:56
I always have because I was raised with
00:19:58
them.
00:19:59
>> Uh and uh so I think it's lovely at Dio
00:20:02
where we have uh we have a a school cat
00:20:06
two school cats. We've managed to
00:20:07
acquire another one lately that seems to
00:20:09
be visiting us a lot. Uh and you know I
00:20:13
really um believe in the counseling dogs
00:20:16
that we have too. One in junior and one
00:20:18
in senior school. And it's lovely to see
00:20:21
the way in which children relax when
00:20:23
they're going through hard times. Uh
00:20:25
>> counseling dog. What's that?
00:20:27
>> Yeah. So he uh they come in um into the
00:20:30
school and work in our uh counseling
00:20:32
unit. So they are trained uh and they're
00:20:35
trained to sit and relax uh so that
00:20:38
children can hug them. Uh and they're
00:20:40
very well behaved. They eat on demand
00:20:43
and do the other end on demand as well.
00:20:45
So uh I I was going to try it out with
00:20:48
the person who who quickly stopped me
00:20:51
cuz she said, "You really don't want
00:20:53
that on the office floor, do you,
00:20:54
Heather?"
00:20:56
>> Um it's like a party trick.
00:20:58
>> Yeah. No, I I love animals. So So that's
00:21:01
always been part of me. So, I think when
00:21:02
I grew up, it was going to be a vet or
00:21:05
something in in science.
00:21:07
>> Uh- w uh I majored in organic chemistry
00:21:11
and biochemistry at university. Loved
00:21:14
those uh subjects and uh went on uh to
00:21:19
discover education and how uh special it
00:21:22
is to be able to pass on that knowledge
00:21:24
to to young people.
00:21:27
>> Yes. So much has changed um since you
00:21:29
were a teenager to teenagers of today.
00:21:31
What was the biggest sort of adversity
00:21:32
or stress during your teenage years?
00:21:35
>> Um,
00:21:37
I'm not I don't know if I can remember
00:21:40
that back
00:21:42
that far.
00:21:42
>> I mean, I'm sure there's the obvious
00:21:43
stuff like exam exam stress and anxiety,
00:21:46
but what else?
00:21:48
>> There was that. Um, yeah, I mean, I I
00:21:53
went to a, you know, it was a lovely
00:21:55
rural secondary school. We had great
00:21:58
teachers and it was interesting because
00:22:01
I think in rural education then you did
00:22:03
have a stronger level of teaching uh now
00:22:08
uh or well if I look back on it though
00:22:11
you know we were lucky in rural New
00:22:12
Zealand to have quality teachers.
00:22:15
>> I think it's hard today to get the same
00:22:18
quality teachers that we had back then.
00:22:20
We were very fortunate I think.
00:22:22
>> Why is that? Um I think unfortunately I
00:22:26
think the country uh puts down teaching
00:22:29
and it's not always seen as a desirable
00:22:32
career. Uh some of that is you know the
00:22:35
hard work that's associated with it and
00:22:37
for sure you know teaching is a job
00:22:40
where you're giving a lot. Uh and
00:22:42
sometimes you know people find that
00:22:45
really difficult to be able to work
00:22:46
their way through and see it as a
00:22:48
career. Um, but but I personally think
00:22:51
it's just the most amazing career
00:22:53
because you see these incredible young
00:22:56
people. A few years ago, my uh
00:22:59
son-in-law who who is a neurosurgeon um
00:23:02
said to me, you know, Heather, you've
00:23:04
got the best job ever. And he said, "I'm
00:23:07
trying to save people's lives. Sometimes
00:23:09
it works and sometimes it doesn't. Uh,
00:23:12
and those times are really hard." He
00:23:14
said, "What you see are these amazing
00:23:16
young people and you're you're helping
00:23:18
them to achieve the rest of their life
00:23:20
that's before them."
00:23:22
>> And it was the first time I've I'd heard
00:23:24
that comparison made. And you know, it's
00:23:27
so true. You know, it's a it's a great
00:23:29
career. And I think it's a shame uh that
00:23:32
more young people don't see it as an
00:23:34
opportunity for them
00:23:35
>> and earlier in life.
00:23:38
What's the difference between Heather,
00:23:40
the person at home, and Miss McCrae, the
00:23:43
school principal?
00:23:44
>> Yeah, I probably swear at home a bit
00:23:46
more than I do.
00:23:48
>> What do you think of swear words?
00:23:50
>> I can't tell you that.
00:23:53
>> Well, I learned a few in Mandarin as
00:23:56
well when I uh lived and worked in
00:23:58
China. Uh so that was quite handy as a
00:24:01
principal uh because sometimes students
00:24:04
think students think they can flick into
00:24:06
uh their own language. Uh but knowing a
00:24:09
few swear words in a foreign language is
00:24:10
quite useful too. Um so uh yes at home
00:24:15
um I'm you know I love to unwind
00:24:19
um pajamas and you know being able to
00:24:22
relax. I love that.
00:24:24
>> Uh and to be able to take time out to
00:24:26
de-stress. I'm also still a runner uh
00:24:29
like you. I uh took up running in um in
00:24:33
my middle middle probably 30s I think
00:24:37
late 30s. Yeah,
00:24:40
>> that's right. Just recently. Um and it's
00:24:43
something I've always enjoyed. You can
00:24:44
just put on a pair of running shoes,
00:24:46
destress. You don't need to run fast to
00:24:49
try and tire yourself out. But um I
00:24:52
found it great. And I also built a lot
00:24:54
of friends uh through, you know, running
00:24:57
um marathon clinic and things like that
00:24:59
back in the day.
00:25:00
>> Uh and like your mom was was a good
00:25:03
runner, too, that I I knew back then.
00:25:05
And uh that, you know, it was a great
00:25:07
way we could go to each other's houses
00:25:10
with children and fit in a run. And it
00:25:13
was lovely to be able to combine that
00:25:15
with childhood and career and to work
00:25:18
through.
00:25:19
>> Yeah.
00:25:19
>> Yeah. This is was this like part of the
00:25:21
jogging boom of the 1980s? Yeah. Yeah,
00:25:24
it was. When like when running was
00:25:25
invented.
00:25:27
>> That's right.
00:25:28
>> So, um Okay. So, so we've established
00:25:30
that you're a prolific swearer. Um what
00:25:33
what what else would your students be
00:25:35
shocked to learn about you?
00:25:36
>> Um
00:25:38
what else?
00:25:40
Well, that's
00:25:42
uh yeah, it's hard to know actually. I'm
00:25:45
not sure. I don't keep a profile much on
00:25:48
social media
00:25:50
>> um because you know as you know
00:25:52
sometimes principal can can be targeted
00:25:54
>> uh and yeah so so I'm not I don't keep
00:25:58
that much as a profile.
00:26:00
>> Yeah.
00:26:01
>> Uh yeah I think that's uh that it's
00:26:04
important that you don't get overwhelmed
00:26:07
by some of that stuff that that I've
00:26:10
seen go on you know across the board uh
00:26:13
when you make a decision. Sometimes um
00:26:16
you know you can end up getting uh you
00:26:20
know getting a lot of social media
00:26:22
feedback and sometimes that that can be
00:26:25
quite overwhelming for principles and
00:26:27
I've heard principles talk about that
00:26:28
before too.
00:26:30
>> Is this from students or parents of
00:26:32
students or
00:26:33
>> sometimes it can be from overseas can
00:26:35
come from anywhere.
00:26:37
>> Um and some of those issues can be very
00:26:40
uh difficult to to manage and handle. uh
00:26:43
and you know that's uh the harder side I
00:26:46
think of dealing with it. Also um might
00:26:50
I add that sometimes the media I think
00:26:52
are just overcritical of private schools
00:26:54
and want to um catastrophize small
00:26:57
things that happen. One example would be
00:26:59
the gentleman you know last week at Mari
00:27:03
Kopa who was uh you know who was killed
00:27:06
by the police. Um, and you know the the
00:27:10
next media coverage included, you know,
00:27:12
that he went to a private school who
00:27:14
taught him survival skills.
00:27:16
>> Oh, I saw that. I thought Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:18
So, this is Tom Phillips you're talking
00:27:19
about. He went to St. Paul's and
00:27:20
Hamilton and they run a a outdoor
00:27:22
education thing called Tihoy, which is
00:27:24
bloody amazing. Yes.
00:27:25
>> And it was um
00:27:27
>> Yeah. I don't know. Yeah,
00:27:28
>> it was kind of a long bow to draw, I
00:27:31
think, when you're going to hold
00:27:32
schools. Yeah, it was cuz later on in
00:27:34
the article it also said like he he grew
00:27:36
up and his dad was a pig hunter. So that
00:27:38
I mean that's where he learned the bush
00:27:39
skills but also you know just having the
00:27:41
bush skills wherever he learned them
00:27:42
that had nothing to do with the actions
00:27:43
he took.
00:27:44
>> That's right. And you know that course
00:27:46
may well you know have caused other
00:27:48
people uh you know a great deal of
00:27:51
benefit from surviving and learning uh
00:27:53
how to manage uh living in the forest if
00:27:56
you get lost and what to do about it.
00:27:58
So, so those things and you know are
00:28:01
never emphasized. Yeah. So, so just at
00:28:04
times I read stuff like that and I think
00:28:07
yeah,
00:28:07
>> you know it it's it's not sort of uh
00:28:12
relevant I think and it's a shame that
00:28:15
people go down that pathway of um making
00:28:17
that a big deal. Yeah. For the school
00:28:20
involved because it's a very good
00:28:22
school.
00:28:22
>> Yeah. Why why why are private schools
00:28:25
targeted?
00:28:27
Um yeah, I think
00:28:29
>> you think it's a tall poppy thing.
00:28:30
>> It could be. Yeah. Um I'm not sure. I
00:28:34
think some people see
00:28:36
um private schools as taking money away
00:28:38
from the state sector, but but we don't.
00:28:41
In fact, we give the government bit more
00:28:43
back in GST than we ever take from the
00:28:46
government and we are educating uh
00:28:49
students who would normally cost the
00:28:50
state sector anyway. So, you know, it's
00:28:53
often the views are, you know, perhaps a
00:28:57
little old-fashioned. I have no idea.
00:29:00
Um, but but I guess we all for feel that
00:29:02
we are part of a whole and the whole is
00:29:05
the education sector in New Zealand and
00:29:07
and we are there uh also to work hard
00:29:11
for the education sector and collaborate
00:29:13
right across the board which I think is
00:29:15
so important. You know, rising tides
00:29:17
lift all ships and if there are great
00:29:19
stories and you know all my colleagues
00:29:21
in the state sector are doing a
00:29:23
fantastic job and sometimes you see
00:29:26
schools overly criticized uh when you
00:29:29
know they are dealing with some of the
00:29:31
biggest and hardest uh socioeconomic
00:29:34
issues to manage in their communities.
00:29:37
uh and you know supporting everyone uh
00:29:40
through a great education is what we
00:29:42
should be aspiring to rather than
00:29:44
knocking down you know the the pillars
00:29:47
that hold up the education system and
00:29:50
I'm not saying private schools are the
00:29:51
pillars we're just one part of a very
00:29:54
good quality system and we need to talk
00:29:57
up what we do here we we do some great
00:30:00
things in education and change people's
00:30:02
lives
00:30:04
>> cuz it's not cheap is it
00:30:06
around 30 grand a year to go to Dier.
00:30:08
>> That's right.
00:30:09
>> Yeah.
00:30:09
>> Yep.
00:30:10
>> But and you you gave me a tour of the
00:30:12
facilities. Um you can see you can see
00:30:13
where the money goes. It's like um yeah
00:30:15
it's a it's you know fantastic grounds
00:30:18
you've got and fantastic facilities. But
00:30:20
um
00:30:21
>> jeez not cheap for parents that have got
00:30:23
like two or three kids.
00:30:24
>> That's right. That's right.
00:30:25
>> How many how many daughters have you had
00:30:27
from one family at at school? Is this
00:30:30
you know anyone with like three three
00:30:32
daughters or four daughters? Oh my god.
00:30:34
That's so much
00:30:36
>> it is um and you know some people for
00:30:40
some people it's a commitment that they
00:30:42
make uh to to their daughters
00:30:44
particularly which which I really admire
00:30:47
people who want to uh provide you know a
00:30:51
a quality education for their daughters
00:30:53
and they're willing to invest in it.
00:30:56
>> Yeah, that's what it is. It's it's an
00:30:57
investment. But can you can you still
00:30:59
get a like a a really good education and
00:31:01
outcome for your kids at a public school
00:31:03
where you don't have to pay fees like
00:31:04
that?
00:31:05
>> Yes, you can. Yeah.
00:31:06
>> Uh and absolutely. I've been in one um
00:31:09
you know as principal at Pakaranga
00:31:10
College. Uh the zone that we had
00:31:13
included you know families who struggled
00:31:16
but also families who who were very high
00:31:19
wealth families uh who who chose the
00:31:22
school um because it was their zone. uh
00:31:25
and so that absolutely and I totally
00:31:29
you know I've worked across both sectors
00:31:32
uh and also in an international school
00:31:34
in Beijing and um have loved the quality
00:31:38
of of those schools and what people can
00:31:40
achieve
00:31:41
>> and I think educators often don't get
00:31:44
recognized enough uh in terms of the
00:31:46
work they do and the lives they change
00:31:49
makes a big difference.
00:31:50
>> Yeah. You you you talked about some of
00:31:52
the obstacles that you've um faced
00:31:54
recently like the COVID era and then the
00:31:56
floods. Um the the phase we're in at the
00:31:58
moment is like a cost of living crisis.
00:32:00
Has has that impacted Dio at all?
00:32:02
>> Um yes it does. Uh it it impacts um
00:32:06
simply because of the extra cost and
00:32:09
families who are paying um you know big
00:32:11
mortgages to live in central city uh
00:32:14
have found that harder. uh our role we
00:32:18
we're very lucky because you know role
00:32:20
is very important for our school because
00:32:22
essentially that's what pays for
00:32:24
everything. Um so we are cognizant of
00:32:27
the hardship on families and how that
00:32:29
is. Uh it we take the decision- making
00:32:33
very seriously around you know what we
00:32:35
do and how we go forward uh to make sure
00:32:38
that we do try and stay as affordable as
00:32:41
possible. uh and you know that's it
00:32:44
requires uh careful management obviously
00:32:47
those um facilities that we have uh have
00:32:50
involved loans and we have to be in a
00:32:52
good position to be able to pay that
00:32:54
back. Uh the role is as strong as it's
00:32:56
ever been which is great and we as full
00:32:59
um through to uh 2027. Uh however we
00:33:03
would expect that some of those families
00:33:05
may drop off as a result of you know the
00:33:08
challenges that they face.
00:33:10
>> Yeah. How what what is the role?
00:33:12
>> Uh 1734 students go go to Dio from uh
00:33:17
foundation class through to year 13.
00:33:19
>> The foundation is that what you were
00:33:20
talking about the three and a three year
00:33:21
olds? Yes, that is so Yeah. What what
00:33:23
are they doing at three? What is it?
00:33:24
It's like a like a crash. What is it?
00:33:26
>> Well, uh
00:33:28
>> do they wear uniforms?
00:33:29
>> Yes, they do.
00:33:32
>> They they look very cute, Dominic, I'd
00:33:35
have to say. And it is one of my most
00:33:37
favorite parts of the school. I go down
00:33:39
there as a a little guest appearance and
00:33:41
read books and we play. Um, so uh New
00:33:45
Zealand a few years ago was one of the
00:33:48
first countries to put in place an early
00:33:50
childhood foundation curriculum and I
00:33:53
love that. I think uh you know having an
00:33:56
it it's um called Tariki uh and it's
00:34:00
wonderful. It's learning based around
00:34:02
play and developing some of the
00:34:04
traditions and rules and uh I guess um I
00:34:07
say rules but but you know it's really
00:34:10
more about getting children used to uh
00:34:13
regular routines and knowing how to do
00:34:15
things and how to hold a pencil and how
00:34:17
to hold a book up all those basics. I
00:34:20
I'm a bit green on the uh early early
00:34:24
learning area. Um but but Emma is our
00:34:27
wonderful leader of the foundation uh
00:34:29
class and they they do the learning is
00:34:33
immense and it makes a big difference
00:34:34
going through into year 01 and two when
00:34:37
you see uh that the children are well
00:34:39
prepared for school and and they
00:34:41
obviously get out and about in the
00:34:43
community a lot too. Uh exploring
00:34:45
different areas and uh and love they
00:34:48
like to come up and try try out the
00:34:51
swivel chair in my office.
00:34:54
What's been your proudest moment as a
00:34:56
principal?
00:34:57
>> Oh, yeah. I have lots of proudest
00:35:00
moments. Uh, and I think that's what
00:35:02
makes it so hard to go
00:35:03
>> is um, yeah, the the change or the
00:35:08
quality of change you can implement over
00:35:10
time. Uh, and the people I see who have
00:35:12
come in and said, "Heather, this is what
00:35:15
we need to do. You know, we need a fab
00:35:17
lab." Uh, that was uh, Shannon, a
00:35:20
wonderful teacher we had. Uh we had we
00:35:23
we then set about building a fab lab
00:35:26
with 3D printers. And
00:35:28
>> what's a what's a fab lab?
00:35:29
>> Well well it's about um design. So while
00:35:33
you can learn subjects, you've also got
00:35:36
to be able to give kids uh creative
00:35:39
freedom to design and make stuff. So we
00:35:42
uh we have a creative industries faculty
00:35:45
and a fab lab. And the idea is that they
00:35:48
get a chance to engage in uh creative
00:35:50
equipment that you know high-spec
00:35:52
computers, design computers that they
00:35:54
will find in the workplace later on uh
00:35:57
and be able to to make and use and
00:36:00
create and uh it's fantastic. So, so
00:36:03
people like that who come in and you
00:36:05
know we had a a young doctor a few years
00:36:08
ago and um she was uh based up north and
00:36:12
she wrote me a letter and said you know
00:36:15
I think Dio gave me a fantastic
00:36:18
education but I didn't learn enough
00:36:20
about Martanga Mari and I didn't take
00:36:24
tero so I went away unequipped with
00:36:28
cultural needs and how to listen uh to
00:36:33
my patients about that. So um we we
00:36:37
actioned that got a collection of people
00:36:39
to have a discussion. Uh so we wrote our
00:36:43
own materanga mi program which is now
00:36:45
compulsory through to year 10. uh and
00:36:49
it's been fantastic mainly because we've
00:36:52
attracted new and young Marty teachers
00:36:54
uh to the school. That's uh been a
00:36:57
wonderful asset uh for us and also for
00:37:00
for training young mighty teachers as
00:37:03
well. uh and and I've loved the uh the
00:37:06
difference that it makes when our girls
00:37:08
understand cultural knowledge and of
00:37:10
course we have um probably about 10%
00:37:14
young Mari women uh at DO plus a you
00:37:18
know we we are very multicultural with
00:37:20
about 50 other ethnicities and
00:37:23
nationalities. So, so for me, um, being
00:37:27
able to hold up, I mean, Western
00:37:29
knowledge comes from a lot of different
00:37:31
places. You know, we technically got it
00:37:33
from the Greeks, the Romans, the
00:37:35
Chinese, the Europeans, all um have had
00:37:39
input. We call it western knowledge, but
00:37:41
but actually uh all ethnicities around
00:37:44
the world have knowledge as well. Uh,
00:37:46
and it's important that we understand
00:37:48
and can step in other people's shoes
00:37:50
when we travel and become global. Uh,
00:37:52
and I think that's such an important
00:37:54
part of being a global person, a global
00:37:57
citizen.
00:37:57
>> Yeah.
00:37:58
>> Well, that that's interesting that you
00:37:59
raised the um the um diversity piece
00:38:02
about the school because it must um you
00:38:04
must find it really frustrating when
00:38:06
Yeah. people critics would say it's like
00:38:08
it's a posh rich white school.
00:38:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It isn't.
00:38:13
>> Yeah. And you know, it truly represents
00:38:17
uh diversity in the school. It it is a
00:38:20
pleasure to be in. And I remember when I
00:38:23
uh joined it having been in Beijing
00:38:25
which was an international school. So we
00:38:27
had you know just a whole melting pot of
00:38:30
different uh nationalities. Coming back
00:38:33
to Dio thinking yeah this is this is
00:38:36
pretty much similar and of course as
00:38:38
Oakland has diversified uh so so have we
00:38:43
uh and you know I often challenge people
00:38:45
on that view. Yeah, it it it needs to,
00:38:49
you know, people need to be aware of how
00:38:52
schools have changed over recent years
00:38:54
and all of us in Oakuckland uh reflect
00:38:57
um diversity.
00:38:59
>> Um
00:39:01
what about some of the toughest days or
00:39:03
toughest occasions on the job? You've
00:39:05
been been in the role for 17 years. Um
00:39:07
have have you um had a student or
00:39:10
students over that time that have taken
00:39:11
their own life
00:39:12
>> and how do you deal with that as a
00:39:13
principal? I think and people have often
00:39:16
asked what would be the worst day for
00:39:18
you. That would be the worst day for me.
00:39:20
Uh and um
00:39:22
>> that's happened.
00:39:23
>> No, it hasn't. Um but but you know
00:39:26
that's not to say
00:39:29
anything that it can't. Uh and I think
00:39:32
having an awareness that it could happen
00:39:34
at any school at any time uh to any
00:39:37
principal and uh I often drop notes to
00:39:40
people you know especially because I
00:39:42
think that as a principal that is the
00:39:44
hardest thing to have. We we did have uh
00:39:47
a circumstance at Pakaranga College a
00:39:50
few years ago which uh was a former
00:39:52
student further down the track who had
00:39:55
uh taken their life and I remember our
00:39:57
counselor at Pakaranga College then
00:39:59
spoke to young people and said you know
00:40:02
this is not a great idea guys look how
00:40:04
it's making you feel don't ever forget
00:40:07
uh that you know how you are feeling as
00:40:10
a result of that because that's what you
00:40:11
leave behind if you think this is a
00:40:14
great idea Um so you know I thought he
00:40:17
was very brave um to to speak that way
00:40:20
and it is something you know that would
00:40:23
would be my one of my hardest days but I
00:40:27
have been fortunate uh so far
00:40:30
>> that's it's incredible really isn't it
00:40:32
>> that you haven't had to deal with that
00:40:34
it's wonderful
00:40:35
>> it it is it is because it's it's just
00:40:38
the saddest thing um you know we New
00:40:41
Zealand has been uh typically u much
00:40:44
higher in you know taking your own life
00:40:47
rates compared to other countries. So
00:40:50
it's something we need to be aware of
00:40:51
and and you know be able to encourage
00:40:54
young people to talk about you know what
00:40:57
lies within and how to you know to deal
00:41:00
with these things. uh the the journalist
00:41:03
Jan Cassinada, I don't know if he he
00:41:06
spoke at a conference uh that that I
00:41:09
went to recently and a very impactful
00:41:12
speaker uh and you know talked about the
00:41:14
impact on him and how he uh how he did
00:41:19
all the things that you're told to do,
00:41:21
you know, but but he still suffered from
00:41:23
depression and and had a really
00:41:26
difficult time and the only way to deal
00:41:29
with it um was a a very good friend of
00:41:32
his who turned up and didn't go away and
00:41:34
kept persisting uh to be alongside of
00:41:38
him and you know those are the things
00:41:39
that make a difference.
00:41:41
>> Yeah. But you know it it's such a
00:41:43
complex thing uh but but it's something
00:41:46
you know we should all care about deeply
00:41:48
in our country is how to look after the
00:41:51
welfare and well-being of uh th those
00:41:53
young people coming through and how we
00:41:56
uh you know how we look after them in
00:41:58
that space.
00:42:00
>> Oh 100%. the fact that you haven't had
00:42:01
to deal with it in 17 years. Maybe that
00:42:03
says more about um you know, young women
00:42:04
in New Zealand being better at talking
00:42:06
about this stuff than than young men
00:42:08
are.
00:42:08
>> Yes, it could be.
00:42:10
>> Yes, I'm not sure. I I'd be interested
00:42:14
in seeing, you know, the patterns over
00:42:16
time. Um but but I do think uh you know,
00:42:19
in all girls environment, certainly uh
00:42:22
girls do talk about things a lot more.
00:42:25
um there's a lot more social media
00:42:27
interaction and certainly the research
00:42:29
shows that you know girls far often more
00:42:32
often engage in uh risky social media
00:42:36
behaviors. So so there is something
00:42:38
there for young women that we we mustn't
00:42:40
take our eyes off.
00:42:42
>> Uh but
00:42:42
>> what do you mean more risky social media
00:42:44
behavior?
00:42:44
>> Uh well you know befriending someone
00:42:47
online that they don't know. Okay. uh
00:42:49
and then agreeing to meet them and you
00:42:52
know who they think is a 13year-old girl
00:42:54
is actually a 35year-old male pedophile.
00:42:58
>> Uh so so there's you know that's risky
00:43:01
behavior. uh exploring um pornography uh
00:43:05
and you know the the the way in which
00:43:09
women are uh portrayed on pornography uh
00:43:13
it is seriously giving young men a a an
00:43:19
uninformed view of what a relationship
00:43:22
looks like. Um, and I think that's a
00:43:25
worry. And I think our male school
00:43:26
principles are very aware of this and
00:43:28
and doing some great work uh with young
00:43:31
men to help them understand what quality
00:43:33
relationships are and that you don't
00:43:36
find it on uh pornographic websites.
00:43:40
>> As I mentioned, I said on Instagram,
00:43:42
you're coming in. I've got so many so
00:43:43
many questions for you. Um mainly with
00:43:46
insights that you've um got about um you
00:43:48
know, teenage girls in New Zealand. If
00:43:51
you had to describe teenage girls in one
00:43:53
word today, what would it be?
00:43:57
>> Adaptable.
00:43:59
>> Yeah. I see a group of young women
00:44:02
coming through who are now savvy as they
00:44:06
come through with uh technologies that
00:44:09
they have in their hands. And uh they
00:44:12
are more savvy about how they let it
00:44:14
impose on their lives. uh and better
00:44:17
much better at making decisions than
00:44:21
five years ago uh and 10 years ago uh
00:44:24
because I think there's more information
00:44:26
about it Dom and there's more awareness
00:44:28
of parents around you know how to use
00:44:33
their digital devices safely and
00:44:35
effectively and I think we as
00:44:38
communities still have a very strong
00:44:40
influence in making sure that we put
00:44:43
those protection measures in case. I
00:44:46
mean AI is another uh potentially
00:44:49
impending storm for young people. Uh and
00:44:52
it is important for us uh to ensure that
00:44:55
we protect knowledge and we know that it
00:44:58
is their knowledge and not knowledge
00:45:00
that they have simply extracted uh from
00:45:04
uh digital sources. So so you know we
00:45:06
have to be aware all the time I think of
00:45:09
their impact. Hearing their voices is
00:45:11
one of the most important things. uh and
00:45:14
making sure that we uh explore with them
00:45:18
how it is what is life like for them as
00:45:20
they're coming through. But but I see
00:45:22
them being more adaptable and and
00:45:25
capable of of dealing with these changes
00:45:28
in a pretty effective way.
00:45:30
>> Yeah, I think they're great.
00:45:32
>> I if I if I was at school today, I'd
00:45:34
definitely be leaning heavily into chat
00:45:36
GPT.
00:45:38
>> It' be it'd be doing the Yeah. most of
00:45:41
my assignments.
00:45:42
>> Yeah. Well, it's pretty interesting um
00:45:45
because some of the research uh that's
00:45:47
been done in the UK uh they have uh so
00:45:50
this happened at universities and uh so
00:45:53
most of the um professors you know were
00:45:55
marking papers and they said they could
00:45:57
tell you know what was generated on chat
00:46:00
GPT and what wasn't. Uh so the re
00:46:03
researchers put them to the test and
00:46:05
gave them uh 115 papers uh to to mark.
00:46:11
So essentially some of them were uh chat
00:46:14
GPT answers and some and and they were
00:46:17
handwritten out to make it look like you
00:46:19
know a student had written them and they
00:46:21
were mixed up with all the papers. Uh
00:46:24
what what do you think happened?
00:46:27
>> I don't know. I don't know. Tell me.
00:46:29
>> Okay. So uh what happened was very few
00:46:33
of the chat GPTs in fact I think it was
00:46:37
112
00:46:38
out of 115
00:46:41
uh papers were not picked up uh as being
00:46:44
chat GP generated. Um but the other
00:46:47
issue that we have to face is that they
00:46:50
identified uh human answers. they
00:46:55
identified many more human answers as
00:46:58
being chat GPT than the chat GPT papers.
00:47:02
So um it just shows that uh as humans we
00:47:06
can't distinguish a difference and I
00:47:09
think this is why we need to go back to
00:47:11
a more examinedbased system of
00:47:14
qualifications which of course uh this
00:47:16
government announced you know a a couple
00:47:18
of um weeks ago and I think these are
00:47:21
really good changes because uh you know
00:47:24
the view over there is that there might
00:47:26
be a scandal in a few years because
00:47:28
people have managed to get their degrees
00:47:30
using AI and there's been no you know
00:47:32
protection against that. Uh so we may
00:47:35
have people out there uh who have postco
00:47:39
um you know got their qualifications by
00:47:42
using uh AI. So so so we need to
00:47:45
probably reook at that and ensure that
00:47:48
we reinforce the education system with
00:47:50
ways of uh making sure that genuine
00:47:54
knowledge is being acquired and how do
00:47:56
we know that? Yeah.
00:47:58
>> Yeah. It's a scary time isn't it? It
00:48:00
really is. What's the biggest
00:48:01
misconception people have about teenage
00:48:03
girls today?
00:48:07
>> Yes, that's that's fairly broad because
00:48:10
I think it varies on who they are, what
00:48:12
their role is, and
00:48:14
>> uh I I would say u most of our staff.
00:48:19
The the common misconception I think
00:48:21
about adolescents is that they're
00:48:23
politically unaware. Um
00:48:26
that they are naive to many things. Um
00:48:30
but actually I think they aren't they
00:48:33
are very aware um politically aware as
00:48:36
well uh and uh they have a voice and the
00:48:40
vast majority that I see uh we should be
00:48:43
very proud as a country of the young
00:48:45
people we are seeing come out of our
00:48:47
education system and I mean right across
00:48:49
the board
00:48:50
>> um by and large they are astounding
00:48:52
young people and when I look at uh you
00:48:56
know when I go to prize giving and
00:48:58
things it's not unusual for a parent to
00:49:00
walk out and say, you know, I I feel
00:49:03
very inadequate after hearing what our
00:49:05
young people achieve these days.
00:49:08
>> They are fantastic. They are engaged. Uh
00:49:12
they take on a lot. They love um
00:49:14
participating. Uh they have a voice and
00:49:17
uh I have the utmost respect for them. I
00:49:20
think we are very fortunate with our
00:49:22
young people today.
00:49:25
>> God, you're like a proud mom, aren't
00:49:26
you?
00:49:27
>> I am.
00:49:28
I am. And look, I've even put the dog to
00:49:31
sleep.
00:49:32
>> Can you hear him snoring before?
00:49:34
>> He snores quite loudly. If if you could
00:49:36
give um one piece of advice to every
00:49:38
young woman in New Zealand today, what
00:49:39
would it be?
00:49:40
>> It's another broad one.
00:49:42
>> Yes. Don't ever give away the freedom
00:49:44
and rights that uh that women in past
00:49:48
years have enabled uh for you. Uh I we
00:49:53
was fortunate I went to a course at
00:49:55
Walton last year in um uh Philadelphia
00:49:59
uh so the Walton Business School and it
00:50:02
was fascinating because the vast
00:50:03
majority of uh the course were American
00:50:07
women. Uh and they talked about how they
00:50:09
have fewer rights than their
00:50:11
grandmothers had in America.
00:50:13
>> And I kind of questioned, you know, what
00:50:17
how did that happen and why has it
00:50:19
happened? Uh, and you know, I would
00:50:22
think I would like to think that we'd
00:50:24
be, this is where the word stroppy comes
00:50:26
in. We would get very stroppy about
00:50:28
things like that where our rights as
00:50:31
women are undermined uh or or taken
00:50:35
away. I think that would be my advice to
00:50:39
young women is to always be aware of uh
00:50:42
your rights as a woman uh and why it's
00:50:45
important that you you always maintain
00:50:48
those and look at uh equity and e
00:50:52
equality because you don't get equality
00:50:55
necessarily by treating everyone equally
00:50:57
>> and those are important points I mean if
00:51:00
you educate a woman for one year one
00:51:04
further year in other parts of the
00:51:06
world, you can change a whole population
00:51:08
growth of a country. You know that's the
00:51:10
power of educating women and um you know
00:51:13
that would be my advice to them. Get
00:51:15
educated always stand up for your
00:51:17
rights.
00:51:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. Be defiant. Challenge
00:51:20
things.
00:51:21
>> Yes. You must if you don't believe in
00:51:23
them.
00:51:24
>> Yeah. In in your view uh what are the
00:51:26
most important life skill skills schools
00:51:28
should be teaching girls alongside
00:51:30
academics? Well, we had this interesting
00:51:34
question a few years ago. You know, do
00:51:36
subjects create amazing people or do
00:51:41
knowledgeable people sometimes do dumb
00:51:43
things because they have knowledge but
00:51:45
they don't have values or there's you
00:51:48
know that they can be dodgy ethically
00:51:50
around things. And you know, the first
00:51:53
global financial crisis that we had back
00:51:56
in the early 2000s uh was because there
00:51:59
were smart people loaning more money
00:52:01
than people could own. And so there was
00:52:04
going to be a tipping point somewhere
00:52:06
that that triggered, you know, the
00:52:08
global financial crisis that that went
00:52:10
right around the world.
00:52:12
>> So we had some discussions after that.
00:52:14
And um there were a few things that we
00:52:16
came up with as a school that we thought
00:52:18
were needed. Um, one was ethics. You
00:52:22
know, how do how does kids just because
00:52:25
they know stuff, does that make them,
00:52:27
you know, ethical young people with
00:52:29
values that, you know, that are that are
00:52:32
um that are important to have like
00:52:34
honesty and trust and integrity.
00:52:37
>> Uh, and so we uh developed our own uh
00:52:40
ethics program that we run. So Dame Sha
00:52:44
Elias is uh the patron of our ethics
00:52:47
center. Um because ethics are the basis
00:52:49
of law. That's how societies create law.
00:52:53
And for me though that was really
00:52:55
important to understand because you know
00:52:57
whenever you're engaging with honesty
00:53:00
and integrity that you know that that's
00:53:03
the basis of how you build your law to
00:53:05
create fairness and um and a just
00:53:08
society. So, so that kind of level of uh
00:53:12
justice and what that might look like
00:53:15
encouraged us to build that program, you
00:53:17
know, within a compulsory part of uh our
00:53:20
curriculum.
00:53:21
>> The there's also, you know, we are an
00:53:24
Anglican school and the part about being
00:53:27
an Anglican that I think is lovely is
00:53:30
that you accept all people all the time
00:53:32
for who they are regardless. uh and I
00:53:35
think that's so important that that
00:53:37
should be a starting point of all
00:53:39
people's relationships you know that uh
00:53:42
and it's important underpinning of our
00:53:44
school uh all people who come to us are
00:53:48
um respected and in our workplace we
00:53:52
must honor that as well um so while I'm
00:53:55
the principal I appreciate uh everyone
00:53:59
in our school for the role we couldn't
00:54:01
do it without them all
00:54:03
>> um and for me that level of modeling
00:54:06
what we say we believe in and what we do
00:54:08
is really important. Uh and you know it
00:54:11
was about moving from a bureaucracy into
00:54:14
a much more collaborative environment uh
00:54:17
where people come can rock up to your
00:54:19
office and tell you what you need as a
00:54:22
school to to change and go forward. And
00:54:25
you know that's how you build a learning
00:54:26
organization when you're able to capture
00:54:28
the knowledge of everyone in your
00:54:30
organization. And that means everyone
00:54:33
regardless of uh the roles that they
00:54:35
play because they all have far more uh
00:54:38
you know capacity that than I as an
00:54:41
individual have uh and I've loved that.
00:54:44
So so building that into your school
00:54:46
culture I think for me has been so
00:54:48
important. you know the people who are
00:54:51
you as a person uh and you know the fact
00:54:54
that every person has a spiritual center
00:54:58
um you know in some year in past years I
00:55:02
think we've all become a bit devoid of
00:55:04
that and we don't acknowledge uh that we
00:55:06
have an inner self that we should know
00:55:09
really well and understand who we are as
00:55:12
people the values you know what will we
00:55:14
stand up for uh and protect and you know
00:55:19
what what will we say should never
00:55:21
happen again in this world? you know,
00:55:23
there there's a lot and um having been
00:55:26
raised in Pier on the farm between
00:55:29
Payetto and Ekatuna, you know, we had
00:55:32
Polish refugees from World War I um and
00:55:35
survivors really of um families and
00:55:38
learning about that as a child had a
00:55:40
powerful um message for me about you
00:55:43
know people and you know how to ensure
00:55:46
that we have a peaceful world not an
00:55:48
aggressive world. H
00:55:52
>> what do you wish parents understood
00:55:53
better about their teenage daughters?
00:55:55
>> Oh, good question. Um I think
00:55:58
>> I'd like to claim it, but that's from
00:56:00
someone on Instagram,
00:56:01
>> right?
00:56:03
Yeah. Um I think
00:56:07
I would like um families to see their
00:56:12
daughters uh as as worthy an investment
00:56:15
as their male counterparts in a family.
00:56:18
uh and to ensure that there is equity
00:56:21
within families uh in uh all
00:56:24
ethnicities. That's not always the case.
00:56:27
Um but certainly we we would uh promote
00:56:30
that as a school. Uh in terms of uh
00:56:33
their young women, I think uh message
00:56:38
for all women out there is to never tell
00:56:41
your daughter that she can't do maths.
00:56:43
You know, I I believe anybody can do
00:56:46
maths. Even you don't. Oh, no, no, no. I
00:56:49
was going to say I nearly got you over
00:56:50
the
00:56:50
>> line
00:56:52
and encourage them into their areas of
00:56:55
interest, you know, rather than have a
00:56:57
set view on what what they should be
00:57:00
achieving. Um, I think uh it's important
00:57:03
to acknowledge uh them as young women in
00:57:07
the world uh and uh to accord them the
00:57:12
the level of equity they would every
00:57:14
other family member and and to encourage
00:57:18
them especially to look at those
00:57:20
subjects that they may not have achieved
00:57:23
in. And you know many uh uh women out
00:57:27
there probably were overwhelmed with
00:57:29
maths uh at at school and boys typically
00:57:33
have slightly different brain
00:57:35
development that I believe uh it it
00:57:38
gives them more spatial ability uh
00:57:41
before girls get to that. So often they
00:57:44
don't see themselves as being successful
00:57:47
in mathematics. Every young woman in New
00:57:49
Zealand can do maths and it's about
00:57:52
switching on that u passion for it in
00:57:55
science subjects as well. And of course
00:57:57
I'm obviously they're my passions. Um
00:58:00
but but you know when when I graduated
00:58:02
the number of women to men was far you
00:58:05
know it was two to 30.
00:58:08
>> Uh and you know it has changed over time
00:58:10
which I love to see. Um and and I think
00:58:15
helping her to understand that she
00:58:18
doesn't need to settle for second best.
00:58:20
You know,
00:58:22
>> all women should have the right to
00:58:24
achieve what they want to in the world
00:58:26
and be encouraged by their parents to do
00:58:28
that. And that's what I would love
00:58:30
>> parents uh to see in their daughters.
00:58:35
>> I never realized there was a um it it
00:58:38
was a thing that girls couldn't do
00:58:39
maths.
00:58:40
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:40
>> Really?
00:58:40
>> Yeah. Good on you. It's an actual
00:58:43
>> you keep it up.
00:58:45
>> Wow. Um, are there are there warning
00:58:48
signs parents should uh watch for that
00:58:50
might suggest a teenage girl is
00:58:51
struggling mentally but not speaking up?
00:58:53
>> Yeah. Yes, there are signs. Um, being
00:58:57
withdrawn
00:58:59
>> um wanting to spend lots of time in
00:59:02
bedrooms on their own. Uh, keeping
00:59:05
phones at night. I think it it's really
00:59:09
important to take digital devices off
00:59:11
students at night and to make sure that
00:59:14
that's managed in families. I really
00:59:16
think you know young people need their
00:59:19
sleep, girls and boys. Uh and it's
00:59:22
really important but digital devices and
00:59:24
I know I don't know if you've played
00:59:26
computer games from time to time. I have
00:59:28
and I can you know they are actually
00:59:30
quite addictive. Um, so that would be
00:59:32
one thing that the girls don't know that
00:59:34
I often play computer, you know, it's
00:59:37
majong and a few other things. Um,
00:59:39
>> not playing Call of Duty or
00:59:42
>> No, but um colored bottles, you know,
00:59:45
with with mental games where you have to
00:59:47
work out um those sort of things. Uh but
00:59:49
I do it to unwind. uh and it's just a
00:59:52
way of um switching off for a wee while
00:59:55
uh but but you know to to protect that
00:59:58
space I think um young people need our
01:00:03
guidance as as they come through around
01:00:06
uh how to make sure they get good sleep
01:00:08
they form strong relationships uh the
01:00:12
patterns I see are often um suddenly ch
01:00:17
sudden changes in behavior uh where you
01:00:20
one minute your daughter's a happy child
01:00:25
running off to school. Um not wanting to
01:00:27
go to school. Uh
01:00:30
>> not wanting to um to sit around the
01:00:33
family t table and and enjoy space with
01:00:35
each other. Uh and certainly spending
01:00:38
too much time on um digital devices is
01:00:42
usually a sign that their mental state
01:00:45
is going somewhere else and not centered
01:00:48
on themselves. And I think those are the
01:00:51
usually the indicators. It would say uh
01:00:54
a a good sit down in a in a discussion
01:00:56
is needed to find out what might be
01:00:58
driving that. It might be nothing.
01:01:00
>> Um but but it also might be that they're
01:01:03
just finding it difficult to cope with
01:01:05
hor hormonal changes as well.
01:01:07
>> Yeah.
01:01:08
>> Yeah. I suppose as a parent you got to
01:01:09
be hypervigilant because you could just
01:01:10
write it off to be like a puberty thing
01:01:12
or something else but it might be
01:01:14
something deeper. Yeah.
01:01:15
>> Um, is there a book or resource that
01:01:17
you'd recommend to every parent of a
01:01:19
teenage girl?
01:01:20
>> Yes. Uh, it's a resource netafe I would
01:01:23
definitely uh recommend because it gives
01:01:26
really great parental advice and it's
01:01:28
for boys and girls. Uh, I think that's
01:01:32
um, you know, it's important to uh, to
01:01:35
use whatever you can to find out you
01:01:38
know, what symptoms might look like with
01:01:40
regard to overuse of um, social media.
01:01:44
Uh I think reading in general is great
01:01:47
for boys and girls. Uh so no particular
01:01:50
um aspect of that but but in Oakland
01:01:54
especially you know there are heaps of
01:01:56
uh parent advice centers which I think
01:01:59
are fantastic that that can provide
01:02:01
parents you know with that much needed
01:02:04
advice and net safe has an 0800 number
01:02:07
as well which is always available. Uh
01:02:09
and certainly uh do go and talk to your
01:02:13
school about it. Uh because you you know
01:02:16
we see their uh daughters for an
01:02:19
extended period of time during the day
01:02:21
uh and can talk to parents about how we
01:02:24
provide that consistent care and support
01:02:27
and you know it is something that is so
01:02:30
important because we now know have no
01:02:32
boundaries between school and home. You
01:02:35
know we are one and the same from the
01:02:37
point of view that you know social media
01:02:40
and digital is just so ubiquitous. Uh
01:02:43
and we need to have a collective uh view
01:02:46
on it so that we can support each other
01:02:47
through those changing times.
01:02:49
>> Gez phones have come up a lot in this
01:02:51
conversation, haven't they?
01:02:52
>> Yeah. Yeah, they have.
01:02:54
>> Yeah. It's it's a real worry. It's
01:02:56
almost like a a social experiment and no
01:02:58
one knows what the outcome's going to
01:02:59
be.
01:02:59
>> That's so true.
01:03:00
>> Yeah. For all of us as well.
01:03:02
>> Yes. And you know preparedness,
01:03:05
continual communication is really key to
01:03:08
help our parents so that you know they
01:03:10
can feel more confident in calling it
01:03:13
and saying you know that's not
01:03:15
happening. I mean kids are incredibly um
01:03:18
resourceful. We have uh controls on all
01:03:22
of our system but but our people are
01:03:25
always our IT people are always working
01:03:28
um on identifying those who have found a
01:03:30
workaround. Uh
01:03:32
>> oh.
01:03:32
>> Have you got like a a cell phone blocker
01:03:34
or something?
01:03:34
>> Yes. All right.
01:03:35
>> Yes. But but they override it somehow.
01:03:39
the there are you know access to
01:03:42
different websites and we've got you
01:03:44
know uh a huge number blocked and and in
01:03:47
terms of our AI we are using play lab
01:03:51
which is a American designed educational
01:03:54
tool so uh it it's contained and all the
01:03:57
information in it is valid uh and
01:04:00
reliable information so you're not going
01:04:02
to get kids writing um or sourcing
01:04:05
material that is um that is
01:04:07
misinformation information.
01:04:09
>> Yeah.
01:04:10
>> What are the most common things girls
01:04:12
come to you worried about?
01:04:15
>> Well, maybe not not specifically you,
01:04:17
maybe your like your guidance counselor
01:04:19
or
01:04:19
>> Yes.
01:04:20
>> or the other what what sort of reports
01:04:21
do other teachers come to you with?
01:04:23
>> Yes. Usually relationships.
01:04:24
>> Yeah.
01:04:25
>> Um whether they be with girls or or or
01:04:29
others outside. Um yeah, relationship
01:04:32
issues typically are fairly common. Um
01:04:36
in terms of uh you know and this is
01:04:39
where social media comes into play. Um I
01:04:43
guess you know this gets back to you
01:04:46
know some of the misconceptions around
01:04:48
um you know what people might think
01:04:50
about girls schools. Uh I can assure
01:04:54
people that having been in a co-ed uh
01:04:58
secondary school as well in New Zealand
01:05:00
that there's just as much goes on
01:05:02
between the girls and boys there as it
01:05:05
does in an all girls school. So you know
01:05:08
you often hear oh well they're more
01:05:09
catty or or you know
01:05:11
>> kitty's the word I want to I want are
01:05:13
you wanting to get out there? Um they're
01:05:15
not you know and you know that's not the
01:05:18
case. Uh you'll see it across any
01:05:21
school. uh where you get the same
01:05:24
interactions, there's actually no
01:05:26
difference.
01:05:27
>> Um and you know there's a view that in a
01:05:29
boy's you know in a co-ed school that
01:05:32
you know the boys have a moderating
01:05:33
factor. Um well they have lots of other
01:05:36
factors as well. uh but but that's uh
01:05:39
not one of them that I've observed and
01:05:41
it is you know usually relationships
01:05:44
when you're a growing teen uh actually
01:05:47
it's about your self-image and uh if you
01:05:51
uh talk to students about how they see
01:05:53
themselves those things usually pop out
01:05:56
you know I don't feel good enough I'm
01:05:58
not academic enough you know I'm I'm not
01:06:02
bright and sometimes you know that they
01:06:04
are they have this image that is not
01:06:07
actually who they are. Uh and you know
01:06:10
our role is to help them deal with that
01:06:12
and to build self-confidence in in
01:06:15
themselves because that gives them the
01:06:17
strength to be confident and to address
01:06:20
you know healthy relationships which
01:06:22
should always have good conversation and
01:06:26
it should always be about uh helping the
01:06:28
other person's um you know how they see
01:06:31
themselves rather than the put down and
01:06:34
you know the tall poppy stuff you talked
01:06:36
about before. So it is really important
01:06:38
that we that we help with those
01:06:41
relationships and build healthy
01:06:43
relationships and the ability to look at
01:06:45
what healthy relationships are. Um and
01:06:50
you know we we run a special program
01:06:52
looking at controlling relationships.
01:06:55
So, uh, that girls learn, you know, what
01:06:58
that looks like and why, uh, it's not a
01:07:01
healthy, uh, a healthy way to build a
01:07:04
relationship with another person.
01:07:06
>> Do you have a do you have a view on, um,
01:07:09
what's better, single sex schools or
01:07:10
mixed schools?
01:07:12
>> I do. Um, having I probably had a view
01:07:16
prior to working at Dio and and it's a
01:07:19
different view that I have now. Um, I
01:07:22
never went through a single sex school.
01:07:24
I always went to a co-ed school, always
01:07:27
taught in co-educational schools. So, DA
01:07:30
was the first all girls school that I
01:07:32
went to. Um, and I thought, well, this
01:07:36
would be interesting uh and different,
01:07:40
but as you can tell by the number of
01:07:41
years I've been part of it, I've loved
01:07:44
it. M
01:07:45
>> uh and I see a huge benefit and and I'm
01:07:48
pretty sure that my male school uh
01:07:52
principal counterparts would say the
01:07:54
same uh that there are um you know there
01:07:58
are opportunities girls get in all girls
01:08:00
schools that they don't get in all boys
01:08:02
schools. They fulfill all the leadership
01:08:05
positions. They're there doing the
01:08:07
speaking. They're there leading the rock
01:08:09
band. You know they are there leading
01:08:12
all sports. uh and what they demonstrate
01:08:15
to each other I think is gold. uh and
01:08:19
you know I have to say uh that I've
01:08:22
become a convert uh completely I think
01:08:25
uh you know the move away uh in some
01:08:29
countries that I see uh from single sex
01:08:32
schools well you know it's a choice that
01:08:34
parents can make but I certainly see the
01:08:36
benefits uh of uh young women being
01:08:39
inspired by other young women uh to grow
01:08:42
be confident and to show what's
01:08:44
possible. I've loved it.
01:08:47
Yeah, I can I can tell I can tell you
01:08:49
love it. You're so so passionate about
01:08:50
it. God, you're going to miss it, aren't
01:08:51
you?
01:08:52
>> I am.
01:08:53
>> And um peer pressure for teenage girls,
01:08:55
is it is it is it better or worse than
01:08:57
what it was say 17 years ago when you
01:08:59
started?
01:09:00
>> I think it's no different.
01:09:01
>> I think it's better.
01:09:02
>> Yeah.
01:09:03
>> Yeah. Than than it ever used to be. Um
01:09:06
because there's
01:09:08
>> because of diversity in many ways. Uh I
01:09:11
think it's important that uh people can
01:09:15
and have the view that they can be who
01:09:17
they are
01:09:18
>> uh and express that and you know I I
01:09:21
like to see that and I see uh young
01:09:25
women far less worried about their body
01:09:27
image than than my generation of women.
01:09:30
And I think that's great.
01:09:32
>> Yeah. When a girl is struggling, whether
01:09:35
it's with body image, confidence, or
01:09:37
friendships, uh what do you think she
01:09:39
needs to hear most from an adult?
01:09:41
>> Yeah, she um needs to hear uh how she is
01:09:48
or how she looks from another adult
01:09:50
because how she feels sometimes is right
01:09:53
out of line uh wi with actually how how
01:09:56
she looks. And that's the kind of secret
01:10:00
uh imposttor syndrome uh that you hear
01:10:03
women talk about where they end up in
01:10:05
roles uh where they're not sure that
01:10:07
they actually fulfill it. And it is true
01:10:09
that women will look at a job
01:10:11
description and work out what she can't
01:10:14
do rather than what she all the things
01:10:16
she can do. Uh whereas a male will go
01:10:19
ahead and apply anyway.
01:10:21
um you know th those things I've seen
01:10:23
that you know when people line up for
01:10:25
positions of responsibility and in
01:10:27
applications for roles at DIO um so yeah
01:10:32
I think what she needs to hear from an
01:10:34
adult uh that they care about her uh
01:10:37
that that no matter who she is you know
01:10:41
she can be loved and I think those are
01:10:43
really important aspects of building her
01:10:45
confidence
01:10:46
>> uh and feeling that she is worthy of a
01:10:50
voice and a contribution uh to the world
01:10:52
around her and that leadership resides
01:10:55
in everyone. It's not just about um you
01:10:58
you know being the best sports person or
01:11:01
the best uh you know wearing the most uh
01:11:04
up to-ate clothes or however that's
01:11:07
judged nowadays.
01:11:08
>> Um I I think you know leadership can
01:11:12
come from very quiet quarters uh from
01:11:15
from women who have a lot to offer. it's
01:11:18
not necessarily always in the I want to
01:11:20
be out the front uh kind of look. And I
01:11:23
think hearing that from an adult so that
01:11:26
a per that woman young woman can value
01:11:29
uh what she does have within her uh and
01:11:33
that she can see the potential those are
01:11:34
really important things to hear.
01:11:37
>> Yes. Since what what you're talking
01:11:38
about is like confidence and
01:11:40
self-esteem. How how do you how do you
01:11:42
boost that in people? M
01:11:45
that requires more than just learning a
01:11:47
subject and that's where I think it gets
01:11:50
to the culture of your school and how
01:11:52
you um grow young women within it and
01:11:56
how they feel valued and a part of the
01:11:58
community.
01:11:59
>> Um so so within schools it is really
01:12:02
important that that is addressed uh
01:12:05
because you can't just learn subjects
01:12:07
and expect to come out as a whole
01:12:09
person. Um so you know there's lots of
01:12:12
aspects of that um particularly around
01:12:15
you know the spiritual self the you know
01:12:18
wa and the you know the personal
01:12:20
well-being um which does come through
01:12:24
some subject areas but but it's an
01:12:26
important part of building you know
01:12:28
within the pastoral care of the school
01:12:31
as well
01:12:32
>> uh and having purposeful programs uh
01:12:35
that help young women um to discover who
01:12:39
they Uh I also think you ex expose the
01:12:43
students to absolutely as many
01:12:45
opportunities as you can to sport and
01:12:48
the arts. Uh because those co-curricular
01:12:51
activities, you know, sport as as you
01:12:54
you would know, Dom, uh you you learn to
01:12:57
become part of a team. The team can't
01:12:59
work if you're not there. Uh if you win,
01:13:02
it's great, but if you lose, which you
01:13:05
often do more than you win, uh you have
01:13:07
to learn to cope with those ups and
01:13:09
downs of life. And and it's about
01:13:11
building resilience through activities
01:13:14
and actions and experiences. Uh you can
01:13:18
do it, you know, through well-being
01:13:20
programs uh as well, which have become
01:13:23
part of many schools. uh but but
01:13:25
actually actions and experiences as they
01:13:28
come through are really important to
01:13:30
provide and particularly I'm I'm a
01:13:32
sports fan myself and I saw the benefits
01:13:35
of what that was like growing up
01:13:37
learning to win to lose to be humble to
01:13:40
others and and support uh participation
01:13:44
uh but but also acknowledge you know
01:13:47
high quality elite performances none of
01:13:50
none of which I seemed to be invol for
01:13:52
back at school but um Hey, you know,
01:13:55
those are the things you learn along the
01:13:56
way, you know, and building resilience
01:13:59
today is so important to be adaptable
01:14:02
and to know how to deal with the
01:14:04
relationship issues and, you know,
01:14:06
growing your sense of self-esteem as
01:14:09
part of that. They are all really
01:14:11
important aspects of what we can do.
01:14:14
>> Are teenage girls generally quite
01:14:15
resilient, do you think? I think to some
01:14:19
extent I feel that they're more so than
01:14:22
they might have been 10 years ago when
01:14:24
all of this um you know sort of major
01:14:27
change of social media washed through
01:14:29
through communities. Yeah, I I think
01:14:32
they are and um you know certainly the
01:14:35
ones I see uh you know I feel very proud
01:14:38
of because I do think the you know by
01:14:41
and large uh the vast majority are
01:14:45
really confident young women and I'm
01:14:47
proud of that.
01:14:50
>> What do you think teenage girls secretly
01:14:51
wish their parents understood about
01:14:53
them?
01:14:55
>> Yes. I um I think they like to they like
01:15:01
their parents to know that they are that
01:15:05
they can be relied on more I think
01:15:07
rather than um you know and can be can
01:15:11
learn to make their own decisions
01:15:14
but but again there's got to be some
01:15:16
good guidance around there around that.
01:15:19
Yeah, I think
01:15:20
>> some more responsibility or
01:15:21
>> I I think so. You know, we talk about
01:15:24
the voting age in New Zealand quite a
01:15:26
bit. Um, and yeah, I mean the there are
01:15:32
there are also dangers in social media
01:15:34
that we're aware of that can influence
01:15:37
young minds and you saw an example of
01:15:39
that in the states where people get
01:15:41
radicalized
01:15:42
>> um online and you know that that worries
01:15:46
me enormously um because you know what
01:15:49
were the guiding you know what were the
01:15:52
reasons for that and and I would suspect
01:15:55
there's a hole in that person's life
01:15:56
that was never filled with love and
01:15:59
>> um perhaps kindness and you know the
01:16:02
values that we want young people to
01:16:05
develop and have uh in terms of how they
01:16:09
see the world. Yeah. So, so those things
01:16:12
do worry me enormously around um you
01:16:15
know what parents and young people know
01:16:18
and you know that um amazing program
01:16:21
Adolescence showed when you know parents
01:16:25
you know he thought he was keeping his
01:16:26
son safe by giving him a you know
01:16:29
computer in his room and so he wouldn't
01:16:31
go out. Um but you know he developed
01:16:35
particular views that weren't uh healthy
01:16:37
in his upbringing. M yeah and it's hard
01:16:41
I think but but I think parents you know
01:16:44
the talking the human the human time
01:16:48
that you give uh a young adult uh can
01:16:52
never be underestimated
01:16:54
in terms of its value. You know the
01:16:56
parent involvement, engagement and love
01:17:00
of their child still is the most amazing
01:17:03
and profound influence on a young
01:17:05
person's growth and self-esteem.
01:17:08
>> Yeah. And I don't think that's new.
01:17:11
>> Yeah.
01:17:11
>> Yeah.
01:17:12
>> Um yeah, you mentioned uh the Netflix
01:17:14
show Adolescence, which um
01:17:16
>> there's um a thread in there about um
01:17:18
Andrew Tate and the negative impact uh
01:17:21
his voice has had on particularly on
01:17:23
young men.
01:17:23
>> Um yeah, what what about for girls in
01:17:26
terms of influences and um like negative
01:17:28
role models online?
01:17:29
>> Like what sort of what sort of role have
01:17:31
oh god, I don't know like the K
01:17:32
Kardashians come to mind like people
01:17:34
like that. What what sort of role do
01:17:35
they have on uh on young women?
01:17:38
Uh certainly there is an influence still
01:17:43
that comes through around body image and
01:17:46
beauty products and you know certainly
01:17:48
when even when I'm playing my we
01:17:52
insignificant computer games you know I
01:17:54
get targeted with stuff uh and obviously
01:17:57
they can tell my age because it's always
01:18:00
about
01:18:01
you know getting fit for the over 60
01:18:03
year old so I'll go oh right okay
01:18:06
surely Not. But yes,
01:18:08
>> no, no one under 60 is playing mahong
01:18:11
>> and wrinkle creams and everything else.
01:18:15
Uh and also um bee venom and you know
01:18:18
how you can make yourself look 20 years
01:18:21
younger and I think oh yeah okay. Um so
01:18:24
you know that we're all getting
01:18:26
bombarded with that but particularly
01:18:28
during teenage years yes there is that.
01:18:31
Um but I think then it gets back to the
01:18:34
family you know the role of the family
01:18:37
and the role of us in schools too is to
01:18:40
you know uh I guess give people a
01:18:43
healthy experience of what uh you know
01:18:47
what's important in life
01:18:49
>> and you know how to build those
01:18:52
relationships with each other that are
01:18:54
going to be meaningful uh and support be
01:18:57
supportive you know rather than critical
01:19:00
uh- which is a typical behavior of some
01:19:03
of the online chat groups and what have
01:19:05
you um you know whether they'll exclude
01:19:07
someone um and exclude them from a group
01:19:10
and that kind of exclus exclusion we
01:19:13
recognize now as you know tantamount
01:19:16
really to a to bullying behaviors. Um
01:19:20
and you know uh while bullying kind of
01:19:24
took over for a while in and almost
01:19:26
everything like pushing over
01:19:28
accidentally at lunchtime was a bullying
01:19:30
issue you know we have defined those now
01:19:33
with our community much more clearly so
01:19:35
that people understand you know that
01:19:37
it's deliberate over a long period of
01:19:39
time that you know it's um it's set out
01:19:42
to undermine you know the other person.
01:19:45
Uh so so those definitions now are more
01:19:48
clearly understood. Um yeah so so a lot
01:19:51
does impact on those on role models that
01:19:54
are online. Uh and of course the extreme
01:19:57
versions of those like the Kardashians
01:19:59
and and um the male uh you know uh e
01:20:03
egotistical male who doesn't you know
01:20:06
believe in um you know women's rights or
01:20:09
anything uh like that. So, so it is a
01:20:12
more complex world and I think it's
01:20:14
because you know the fringes now um and
01:20:17
the radical areas of fringes now have
01:20:20
much more voice than they perhaps had in
01:20:22
past years.
01:20:23
>> Um and it was harder to develop a
01:20:25
following of these sorts of things than
01:20:27
it is online. Now you can get a
01:20:29
following for almost anything anywhere
01:20:31
in the world any time
01:20:33
>> and you know those are challenges that
01:20:35
we all need to take seriously as parents
01:20:37
and educators uh and monitor especially
01:20:41
online behaviors and um put in place
01:20:45
rigorous controls and that's why I
01:20:47
recommended NetSafe because I do think
01:20:49
they give great advice. M
01:20:53
>> so we're recording this in the uh final
01:20:54
quarter of 2025. Then you've got a
01:20:56
summer break and then you're back for um
01:20:59
your final term.
01:21:00
>> Yeah.
01:21:01
>> Um yeah, 17 years in the job as
01:21:05
principal of DIO. Um let's talk legacy.
01:21:09
How do you want to be remembered by the
01:21:10
DIO community and by the girls who the
01:21:13
girls whose lives you've helped shape?
01:21:16
Yeah, I guess it gets back to um you
01:21:19
know, my dad's saying, leave it in a
01:21:21
better place. And I hope it is. Uh and
01:21:25
yeah, I I hope that um you know, um I I
01:21:30
guess too that one of the most important
01:21:32
things I think in today's world is
01:21:36
ensuring that the school itself is
01:21:38
adaptable as an organization. So, so
01:21:41
that it can look at what's out there.
01:21:43
you know, we're not afraid to have these
01:21:45
open discussions uh with our parents and
01:21:47
with with our staff members. We have 293
01:21:51
staff. So, you know, you get a really
01:21:54
good cross-section of views around, you
01:21:56
know, what what we can do, what needs to
01:21:58
happen, and how can we do it our way.
01:22:01
And um so over the years that's become a
01:22:05
regular and norm pattern now of of being
01:22:08
responsive, receptive and adaptable uh
01:22:11
to providing an education that in effect
01:22:14
is for the future. So, so for me, I hope
01:22:18
that's the legacy uh that that that
01:22:20
we've left uh that the school will
01:22:22
continue to grow, develop, and adapt and
01:22:25
uh provide women with the education they
01:22:28
need for the future they they will step
01:22:30
into.
01:22:31
>> Yeah, it would that's my hope, Dom,
01:22:34
anyway. And uh you know, it's been an
01:22:37
absolute blast.
01:22:39
>> That's a huge It's a huge contribution.
01:22:41
What um what are your students called?
01:22:43
Are they are they called old girls?
01:22:45
Well, we changed the name.
01:22:46
>> I was gonna say, yeah, because if you go
01:22:48
to a boy's school, you're called an old
01:22:49
boy. But old girl sounds kind of, I
01:22:51
don't know, offensive.
01:22:52
>> Well, we we changed two names. The girls
01:22:55
that came right through the school were
01:22:57
called Survivors. So, I changed that
01:23:00
name to Champ Dio Champions. Um,
01:23:03
>> it wasn't really Survivors.
01:23:06
>> I thought Survivors was giving the wrong
01:23:08
um kind of impression.
01:23:11
and and so we quietly changed it to Dio
01:23:13
Champions and uh the uh the DI World
01:23:17
Girls of course spells dogs. Uh so
01:23:22
so that was another
01:23:23
>> not a great acronym
01:23:24
>> another challenge. Um so a wonderful
01:23:28
woman who was chair of uh the the Dio
01:23:31
Old Girls Association changed the name
01:23:34
Jenny Spelleain. he's now our board
01:23:36
chair and uh they uh changed the name to
01:23:40
Diosis and Alumna Association, the DAA.
01:23:43
So um you know that sounds far more
01:23:45
official uh than than the dogs. Uh but
01:23:48
but it is lovely. I mean there there are
01:23:51
because the school has longevity uh in
01:23:53
Oakland from 1903 then you know there
01:23:56
are probably 12 to 15,000 D world girls
01:24:00
all around the world
01:24:01
>> and um some of them are well the vast
01:24:04
majority of them are exceptional women
01:24:07
>> so when when um dogs come up to you like
01:24:11
like in public when you're at the mall
01:24:13
or at the grocery store you what's what
01:24:14
sort of feedback do you get what do they
01:24:16
say?
01:24:16
>> Well usually there's a hello Mrs. Great.
01:24:19
I hear from a long way away and I get a
01:24:22
hug which is always lovely. Yeah. So, so
01:24:25
they are great young people. Uh last
01:24:28
year when I was on sobatical I was uh in
01:24:31
Zurich uh and had popped out for a
01:24:34
moment's shopping uh to have a bit of a
01:24:37
break and went into a store and heard
01:24:40
that hello Mrs. McCrae was just lovely
01:24:43
and it was a former student. We had a
01:24:45
hug, a photo and a catch up. Um, and
01:24:48
she's working for a a finance uh
01:24:51
industry organization in in Sweden and
01:24:54
in Switzerland rather, sorry. And uh it
01:24:57
it's just lovely the you know to run
01:25:00
into young women and to find out where
01:25:02
they've got to, where they've gone in
01:25:04
their lives. Every year we celebrate uh
01:25:07
girls who are under 30 but are very high
01:25:10
achievers uh called the women to watch
01:25:13
awards and that's just been phenomenal
01:25:16
picking up women who are doing uh
01:25:18
exceptional things in the world uh all
01:25:22
start either starting new businesses
01:25:24
some of them are um you know making
01:25:27
contributions uh to uh to services uh
01:25:31
some of them are you know lawyers or
01:25:35
judges in other parts of the world. Um,
01:25:38
and to hear the range of things. One
01:25:41
woman that we're going to be celebrating
01:25:43
soon is a first lieutenant in the New
01:25:46
Zealand Army. And uh, so she has
01:25:50
graduated top of her course and is now a
01:25:53
squadron leader uh, for her her people.
01:25:57
And I think it's lovely the whole range
01:25:59
of experiences that that women can get
01:26:02
engaged in these days. And um we promote
01:26:05
that with the girls by celebrating these
01:26:07
women who are in our community. It's
01:26:09
fantastic. I'm inspired every time I
01:26:11
hear their stories.
01:26:12
>> That's so cool. Uh when I had your male
01:26:15
counterpart Tim Oconor from Oakland
01:26:17
Grammar on the podcast, he he told a
01:26:19
story about um sometimes you car loads
01:26:22
of kids, students or former students
01:26:24
will go past and they they'll yell out,
01:26:25
"Fuck you, sir." And uh sorry for my
01:26:29
language. and and he he he he said,
01:26:32
"Yeah, they're abusing me." But also
01:26:33
they they end with sir, which um you
01:26:35
know, which is some messages sunk
01:26:37
through. Yeah. Do you get any um Yeah.
01:26:39
defective Yeah. female students, past or
01:26:42
present, abuse you ever?
01:26:43
>> Uh would it? Not yet.
01:26:46
>> No. And not yet. But I have had uh women
01:26:51
uh older women who have emailed and
01:26:54
said, you know, they didn't always enjoy
01:26:55
en enjoy their time at diet and you
01:26:57
know, they felt isolated or they were
01:27:00
very homesick while they were there. Um
01:27:03
you know, and I do think in past years
01:27:06
when the school may have had perhaps a a
01:27:08
very formal uh sort of approach to
01:27:10
education, it didn't suit everybody. And
01:27:13
I think schools in general have become
01:27:16
more adaptable to that to try and make a
01:27:18
place uh you know a a a place where
01:27:22
everybody can feel comfortable and
01:27:24
welcome and connected and that's the
01:27:26
challenge we all face as educators
01:27:28
>> uh is who who are we what what do we
01:27:31
want the most for our students and how
01:27:33
can we help them um to love life and
01:27:36
achieve uh within it and feel confident
01:27:40
to to do that. So, so no you
01:27:42
principal stories.
01:27:45
>> Touch wood. Touch wood.
01:27:46
>> But I've had some great feedback about,
01:27:48
you know, like the uh doctor who felt
01:27:51
unprepared for uh for deal working in a
01:27:54
Marty community. How important is that
01:27:57
when you're a lawyer or or a doctor or
01:28:00
anywhere else in the uh in service in
01:28:03
New Zealand that you think about, you
01:28:05
know, what you uh need to do to step in
01:28:08
the shoes of others and understand their
01:28:10
wants and needs and um you know, for me
01:28:12
that that's that's been a a great
01:28:14
pleasure to see us work in that space uh
01:28:17
a lot more.
01:28:19
>> Yeah. So, term two next year, um, you
01:28:23
you wake up and you no longer have to go
01:28:25
to the Stuart job that you've had for
01:28:26
the last 17 years.
01:28:28
>> How's how's that going to be? It's going
01:28:30
to feel strange, but is it going to be
01:28:32
exciting or is it going to feel a little
01:28:33
empty?
01:28:35
>> I'm hoping to fill it up, uh, Dom, with
01:28:38
a lot of things. Number one is I'd like
01:28:40
a more regular running cycle. Obviously,
01:28:43
during the school week, it gets pretty
01:28:45
tight with functions and things after
01:28:47
school. So I would like to work on that
01:28:50
some more. Uh I'd like to continue uh
01:28:53
helping develop uh the TTI, the teachers
01:28:56
institute that a number of us have been
01:28:58
involved in. Tim uh being one of them
01:29:01
and also uh David Ferguson who uh left
01:29:04
his principal's job to become our CEO.
01:29:07
Uh so so I'm chair of the board. So I' I
01:29:11
would like uh to think that I can
01:29:13
contribute more in that space to develop
01:29:15
great teachers to to ensure that they
01:29:18
stay in the teaching profession and feel
01:29:20
rewarded uh going into the future. So so
01:29:23
so there is plenty to do. There's also
01:29:26
work supporting other principles,
01:29:28
mentoring and helping other principles
01:29:31
around the country. I'd love to get
01:29:33
involved in that kind of work and you
01:29:35
know so I I don't think um that my time
01:29:38
will will be wasted. Uh but I'd love to
01:29:41
help support the education system right
01:29:44
across the board because it all matters
01:29:46
and and that's important for me.
01:29:49
>> Politics.
01:29:51
>> Gosh.
01:29:53
>> Would you like to get into the um you
01:29:55
the political side of education?
01:29:57
>> Uh or no?
01:29:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, it just depends, Dom. I
01:30:02
think, uh, yeah, I mean, I think one of
01:30:06
the issues with education is that with
01:30:09
with a three-year cycle of governments,
01:30:12
you know, we feel like a cork on a top
01:30:14
of the ocean at times where one
01:30:16
government comes in and we've, you know,
01:30:18
we we've got, um, uh, you know,
01:30:21
decisions made and then another
01:30:23
government comes in and those decisions
01:30:25
are taken away and it's completely
01:30:27
different. you know, I don't think that
01:30:28
does uh service to our education system
01:30:32
and you know, the public service I do
01:30:35
think perhaps needs a bit of a reook in
01:30:38
general and you know are they serving
01:30:40
the public like our taxes that we pay
01:30:42
into it should be. um to some extent
01:30:46
they seem to be more embroiled with you
01:30:48
know political um sort of action rather
01:30:52
than uh delivering to the to the areas
01:30:55
in which they should be delivering and
01:30:57
that that's a question um really
01:31:01
that I think would be an interesting
01:31:03
question for for people to have a think
01:31:05
about is our public service really
01:31:07
servicing the public in the way that it
01:31:10
should and my view is neither health nor
01:31:13
education
01:31:14
are effective in that space. Uh I think
01:31:17
if we can get cross sector agreement on
01:31:20
educational decision making moving
01:31:21
forward that is a much more desirable
01:31:24
way to improve the quality of education
01:31:27
across New Zealand and I'd love to see
01:31:28
that happen.
01:31:29
>> Yeah.
01:31:29
>> Yeah.
01:31:30
>> Well, you've you've got so much
01:31:31
experience and so much knowledge. So
01:31:34
what what was what was that face?
01:31:38
It would be good if you could um carry
01:31:40
on sharing it. All right. Um, so yeah,
01:31:43
term two next year, say you're you're
01:31:46
doing some shopping. You're walking
01:31:47
through a new market and you see a dire
01:31:48
girl vaping or acting inappropriately.
01:31:51
>> What do you do? You say anything or it's
01:31:53
no longer your circus, not your monkeys?
01:31:56
>> No, I would definitely call it.
01:31:58
Absolutely. I'd make a quick phone call
01:32:03
and um yeah, you know, you once you you
01:32:07
care about these things, you'll always
01:32:08
care about them. Yeah. And I' I'd
01:32:12
probably introduce myself and say uh to
01:32:14
the young woman, you know, have a think
01:32:16
about what you're doing to your body and
01:32:18
the reputation of your school. Uh and
01:32:21
when you go there, you buy into that.
01:32:24
>> And you know, your responsibility as a
01:32:27
student uh is to to listen up and and be
01:32:31
accountable uh like we all are and have
01:32:34
been over the years. And it's important.
01:32:37
She models that, too. So, step up, young
01:32:39
lady. Uh, and I would I would make a
01:32:44
phone call after that to have someone
01:32:45
follow up.
01:32:48
>> That was that was a dumb question. My my
01:32:50
my grandfather was a school principal
01:32:52
and he was a school principal till the
01:32:53
day he died. Like, once you're a
01:32:55
principal, you're a principal for life,
01:32:56
aren't you? You're constantly telling
01:32:58
people off.
01:33:00
I'll try not to tell too many people
01:33:02
off, but but I I do think um you know,
01:33:05
it is funny because I do pick up rubbish
01:33:08
around the school and do things like
01:33:09
that. But I think you know, if you want
01:33:11
to live your values and do what you're
01:33:13
asking students to do, you know, model
01:33:15
it. Um I I did I have a story of a
01:33:19
school I went to uh for a little while
01:33:22
and did some relieving. Uh and uh they
01:33:24
had a a DP there who was an interesting
01:33:27
character. Anyway, he was walking
01:33:29
across, this was quite a few years ago,
01:33:32
he had a cigarette hanging out his mouth
01:33:34
and he was he looked disheveled and he
01:33:36
was asking the boys to pull their socks
01:33:38
up and I thought, "Really?
01:33:42
Okay, you've got to do what you what you
01:33:45
say you believe in." And and I think
01:33:48
young people uh see that and and it is
01:33:51
important. They they see that.
01:33:53
>> Yeah. Leadership, culture, value, all
01:33:55
those things. It's got to come from the
01:33:56
top down, doesn't it? It it's definitely
01:33:59
both ways I think. Yeah. Top down. Uh
01:34:03
but but also believe you know that you
01:34:06
empower the rest of your community to
01:34:08
walk the same you know they hey
01:34:13
you know you're all on the same boat.
01:34:14
You've got to be pulling in the same
01:34:16
direction. And some of those simple
01:34:18
things really do matter. And you know
01:34:21
kids want you to be consistent with
01:34:23
them. uh to to be personable and to be a
01:34:26
person. That's what you're wanting them
01:34:28
to be. Uh and it's important that we be
01:34:31
those things, too.
01:34:32
>> Yeah.
01:34:32
>> All good.
01:34:33
>> I think that's a great place to end it.
01:34:35
>> Yeah.
01:34:35
>> Heather, Mrs. McCrae,
01:34:39
my old maths tutor. Um yeah, I mean, in
01:34:42
terms of your LinkedIn profile, like,
01:34:44
you know, it can't be all perfect, can
01:34:45
it? You tutored me and I didn't have
01:34:48
great mathematics success. Um but 17
01:34:50
years in Dio as uh the principal, no one
01:34:53
can argue with um your achievements
01:34:54
there. Thank you so much for coming on
01:34:56
the podcast today. It's been really
01:34:57
cool.
01:34:57
>> It's been a pleasure, Dom, and lovely to
01:35:00
touch base with you again. Uh and to see
01:35:03
you've grown into a very very fine young
01:35:05
man that we're all proud of.
01:35:10
>> I'm just trying to think when the last
01:35:11
time someone called me a young man was.
01:35:13
I'll take it. Hey, thanks so much.
01:35:16
>> All the best, Dom, and and great work.