00:00:00
I'd always thought I'd cod to politics
00:00:01
at some point in my life. I was always
00:00:03
encouraged to do like entrepreneurial
00:00:04
things. So, I had a lot of things on the
00:00:06
go as a kid, my teenage life. I had a
00:00:07
professional window cleaning round. I
00:00:09
had um a fence painting, roof painting,
00:00:11
and deck painting business here. And I
00:00:12
obviously worked at McDonald's, which I
00:00:14
loved in in Christ Church when I came to
00:00:15
town. It was a big deal. And then I went
00:00:17
to university, did a three-year VCOM. I
00:00:19
got into a one-year masters of commerce,
00:00:21
business administration. Halfway through
00:00:22
that year, I got recruited by this
00:00:24
company called Uni Lever, which one of
00:00:25
the biggest companies in the world.
00:00:26
Yeah. We met when we were 15. And we
00:00:28
really became really good friends with a
00:00:29
big group of kids and you know I
00:00:31
actually think that's important for kids
00:00:33
to have quite wide circles of friends. I
00:00:35
like my my kids were pretty much the
00:00:36
same and we started dating at 19,
00:00:39
married at 23 and then do the rest of
00:00:40
the life together and honestly best
00:00:42
decision I'll ever make. You know
00:00:44
greatest privilege of my life being
00:00:45
married to Amanda. Did you save
00:00:46
yourselves for marriage? Well, I mean,
00:00:49
we um
00:00:52
[Music]
00:00:54
Kiwis's love
00:00:56
first. Like Finn, we're making
00:01:00
[Music]
00:01:00
[Applause]
00:01:01
[Music]
00:01:03
waves. Generate. Switch online today.
00:01:13
Christopher Laxon, Prime Minister,
00:01:15
welcome to my podcast. Oh mate, I'm
00:01:17
stoked to be on your podcast. Uh you're
00:01:19
someone, as I said before, I've followed
00:01:20
for a long time and um I just love the
00:01:22
format of what you're doing here. It's
00:01:23
absolutely brilliant. So um no, looking
00:01:25
forward to our chat and conversation.
00:01:27
It's uh it's it's wonderful. I'm I'm
00:01:29
nervous. I'm really nervous. Oh, please
00:01:30
don't be nervous. No, honestly, let's
00:01:32
just have a chat as mates at a pub.
00:01:33
It'll be great. So um you just if you're
00:01:35
good, I'll be good. And another thing
00:01:36
I'm nervous about, my little dog is uh
00:01:38
in the studio with us. And when the um
00:01:40
leader of the opposition was in here, he
00:01:41
he defecated not the dog defecated on
00:01:44
the floor. So, oh, no, no. Look, Kanye's
00:01:47
fine. I've told him it's the prime
00:01:49
minister, so we need some decor. I think
00:01:51
I saying to you, like, um, Anthony
00:01:52
Albanesey's dog, Toto, goes everywhere
00:01:54
with him. Uh, and, uh, so I've got to
00:01:57
know Toto pretty well over the last year
00:01:59
and a bit. So, um, that's awesome to
00:02:00
have you here. Hey, um, I messaged um,
00:02:03
your friend John Key, Sir John Key, to
00:02:05
say that you were coming in and, uh, did
00:02:07
he have any ice breakers? He he replied
00:02:10
saying,
00:02:12
"Ask anywhere. ask if he feels his
00:02:14
career in Boy Scouts was more glorious
00:02:16
and successful than mine and if so why.
00:02:20
No, we were I mean John and Broner are
00:02:22
really good friends of Amanda of mine
00:02:23
and it's actually a really special
00:02:25
relationship actually because there's
00:02:26
not many people who I'm the 42nd prime
00:02:29
minister of New Zealand and there's not
00:02:30
that many of us and it is actually quite
00:02:32
special to have one of your best mates
00:02:34
who's been been it as well and so um but
00:02:36
we were mates before we I I went into
00:02:38
politics and uh so the four of us spend
00:02:40
quite a bit of time together but uh I
00:02:43
was Brona was one night talking about
00:02:44
her girl guides awards and Amanda was a
00:02:47
girl and I was something called boys
00:02:48
brigade which was basically a
00:02:50
Presbyterian version of Scouts and Keith
00:02:52
didn't he wasn't a member of scouts or
00:02:54
anything and so we just sort of were
00:02:55
giving him grief about the lack of
00:02:57
badges for cooking and camping and then
00:02:59
Brona brought out her badges and then
00:03:00
Amanda brought out her badges and I
00:03:02
brought out my badges and just to wind
00:03:04
them up. So um so we we we have a great
00:03:06
relationship. They um we typically uh
00:03:08
one of us sort of thinks about the
00:03:10
dinner and one of us thinks about the
00:03:11
movie to watch and we try and catch up
00:03:13
on Saturday nights or go for a walk
00:03:15
together on Sunday mornings. So when did
00:03:16
you become friends? Was it during your
00:03:18
tenure at a New Zealand or I I'd come
00:03:20
back from New York about 2011 uh and
00:03:23
obviously coming back home to New
00:03:24
Zealand after 16 years away where I'd
00:03:26
left as a 24 year old and and came back
00:03:29
home and uh I got to meet John actually
00:03:32
probably in the first couple of months
00:03:33
when I'd come back from New York and I
00:03:35
actually hadn't taken over from Rob
00:03:36
Feifer's Air New Zealand the CEO then I
00:03:39
was in a process and uh we first met
00:03:41
then and then I got to know him
00:03:42
obviously as CEO and um we both sort of
00:03:44
have pretty similar stories come from
00:03:46
Christ church. Um, you know, um, been
00:03:49
with our partners for a long time and
00:03:50
met as at at high school. Yeah. Very
00:03:53
similar story overseas, back again. And
00:03:55
we got similar sense of humor, similar
00:03:57
temperaments in terms of pretty even and
00:03:59
consistent. And um, we just he and I
00:04:01
used to talk sort of typically very late
00:04:03
at night. both worked long hours and um
00:04:05
we would sort of catch up and shoot the
00:04:07
breeze and I just became very good
00:04:09
friends um before and then I I'd always
00:04:11
thought I'd code a politics at some
00:04:13
point in my life but I always wanted to
00:04:15
go off and do something else before I
00:04:16
came to it and so um yeah so yeah it
00:04:20
sort of worked out in the way that it
00:04:21
did but it's lovely to have that
00:04:22
relationship and we don't actually talk
00:04:24
or we're mates first and you know
00:04:26
politics is second so um you things
00:04:28
we'll be we'll disagree on and um have
00:04:30
different you know views on I'm sure but
00:04:33
We don't actually discuss that stuff,
00:04:34
you know, we sort of we we have our own
00:04:36
friendship and then our wives have got
00:04:38
to become really good friends as well
00:04:39
and and the four of you when you get a
00:04:41
couple's relationship that actually
00:04:42
works with all four actually, you know,
00:04:44
Brian and I, you know, it's it's great.
00:04:45
It's great. So, we can holiday together
00:04:47
and it's all great. So, uh he he also
00:04:49
said and does he have any proof that in
00:04:52
the history of owning of ownership he
00:04:54
has ever caught a fish on a Sea Legs
00:04:55
boat? Ceilings is one of those
00:04:57
amphibious ones, aren't you? Drive down
00:04:59
to the Yeah. I um I I Yeah. Well, and at
00:05:03
New Zealand, I decided I'd buy a house
00:05:04
on W Hickeyi is a bit of a you know,
00:05:06
holiday place. And um but it was it was
00:05:08
at a stage in life where actually my
00:05:10
kids hadn't got their driver's licenses.
00:05:12
So you still, you know, they're busy on
00:05:13
the weekends and they still needing
00:05:14
transportation and you're already a
00:05:16
glorified taxi driver. And so I never
00:05:18
really got to use it much. And then um I
00:05:20
got then I took on this new job and you
00:05:22
work weekends and 24/7 basically. So, I
00:05:24
don't get there very often. But, I've
00:05:25
got a Sea Legs boat, like a um like a
00:05:27
20ft Sea Legs boat. And uh Amanda and I
00:05:30
go out and fish together, so that's what
00:05:31
we like doing. It's just our time to
00:05:32
chitchat and talk stuff through and you
00:05:34
know, um and we don't use live bait. We
00:05:36
just have these big orange eyes. It's
00:05:38
pretty simple fishing. But, no, we Yeah,
00:05:40
there there's good snapper, so we catch
00:05:41
we get one or two snapper and that's all
00:05:43
we need. But no, no, I think he's wrong
00:05:45
about that cuz he's just like he's just
00:05:47
full of it actually. But the thing that
00:05:48
he does is you go over to his house for,
00:05:50
you know, dinner and stuff and, you
00:05:52
know, he pulls out very expensive French
00:05:54
wines. I don't drink alcohol, right?
00:05:56
Never have in my whole life. And um for
00:05:58
different reasons, but uh as a result,
00:06:00
he'll bring out different versions of
00:06:02
Pepsi and say, "This is a great class of
00:06:03
Pepsi from 2015." And no, so we have
00:06:06
different tastes in that regard, but um
00:06:08
but no, no, I do catch fish. I think
00:06:10
that's wrong of him to say that. Yeah,
00:06:11
you're um yeah, you're a Pepsi guy, eh?
00:06:13
Pepsi Max. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I am. Just
00:06:15
because um is that your only advice? No.
00:06:16
No. Well, there's there's probably a lot
00:06:18
of them, but um Pepsi, I just sort of I
00:06:21
don't actually I yeah, I don't actually
00:06:23
demand Pepsi or anything. It's it's got
00:06:25
it's a bit of a problem when you're
00:06:26
prime minister cuz people say, "What do
00:06:27
you want?" You say, "Oh, do you have
00:06:28
Pepsi Max or something?" And then all of
00:06:30
a sudden you think you're whispering and
00:06:31
you end up looks like you're shouting.
00:06:33
And so people then say, "Oh, he's only
00:06:34
he only ever must have, you know, green
00:06:36
M&M's and Pepsi Max and all these riders
00:06:39
and stuff." And it's not the case at
00:06:40
all. But no, I'm I lived in Canada for a
00:06:42
bit and that was a Pepsi market. So I
00:06:43
sort of got into Pepsi Max. cuz I'm I'm
00:06:45
Coke specific. Back back in the day when
00:06:48
when KFC was a PepsiCo uh outfit, I I'd
00:06:51
um I'd get my KFC then go to the dairy
00:06:53
around the corner and get a Coke. Like
00:06:54
I'm that Oh, you're that particular. If
00:06:56
I go to a cafe and So you could taste
00:06:57
the difference between Coke and a Pepsi.
00:06:59
Could you? Yeah. Yeah, I think I can
00:07:00
too. Yeah. So you Yeah. So you're a
00:07:02
Pepsi guy. No coffee. Yeah. No alcohol.
00:07:06
No. And no alcohol. And you've never
00:07:07
touched a drop of alcohol. Yeah. Know
00:07:09
it's really weird. People will often say
00:07:10
to me, you know, oh, is that a religious
00:07:12
thing or something like that's got
00:07:13
nothing to do with that? I um It's your
00:07:15
granddad, right? Yeah. Yeah. My granddad
00:07:18
uh great man, but you know, um flawed
00:07:20
like all of us. And um you know, he had
00:07:22
a problem with alcohol really. He was um
00:07:24
a groundsman at Hegley Hegley Oval in um
00:07:27
Christ Church. Um you know, the
00:07:28
basically mowed the lawns and did that
00:07:30
stuff. My father's the oldest of five
00:07:32
boys. Incredible guy really. Um love my
00:07:34
dad because he changed the course of
00:07:35
parenting in our family really. But I
00:07:37
just remember as a young chap spending
00:07:39
time with my granddad and um you know in
00:07:41
the August school holidays and just
00:07:42
seeing him out of control and I
00:07:43
obviously decided as a seven or an
00:07:45
8-year-old 8 8 nyear-old that that was
00:07:47
sort of something that you was that half
00:07:49
G that made him go a bit funny and um
00:07:51
and for some reason I decided then and
00:07:53
there that that wasn't something I was
00:07:54
doing and I've never never done it. Now,
00:07:56
I went to quite traditional boy schools.
00:07:58
I got a lot of mates, but I was always
00:07:59
the sober driver and I was always
00:08:01
invited and everyone just arranged
00:08:02
alternatives for me. And um but so no,
00:08:05
I've never drunk alcohol at all. And um
00:08:07
but it's just genuinely I can't explain
00:08:08
it when my mom and dad, you know, um and
00:08:11
my brothers, you know, they do, but I
00:08:12
just never have. So um so yeah, so it's
00:08:15
an odd, you know, it's an interesting
00:08:17
one when you sort of go back and explore
00:08:18
where did that come from or why did you
00:08:20
make that decision consciously or or or
00:08:22
unconsciously? And for me it was clearly
00:08:24
um you know seeing him out of control at
00:08:26
times and just deciding that's not
00:08:28
something that I want to do. It's a it's
00:08:30
a clear parallel with um Trump and
00:08:32
yourself because he he's never touched a
00:08:33
drop either and his brother um died of
00:08:36
alcoholism. So it's the same sort of
00:08:37
thing. So he decided never to touch it.
00:08:39
But you you and I are similar age that
00:08:41
must have been um I feel like there's a
00:08:42
greater understanding and awareness and
00:08:44
appreciation of sobriety now and the
00:08:46
harm that alcohol causes. But um back in
00:08:48
the back in the ' 90s like being at
00:08:50
varsity there must have been a fair bit
00:08:51
of peer pressure. Yeah, I was quite
00:08:52
lucky. I'm I'm a big extrovert, so I
00:08:54
always had a lot of friends and you
00:08:56
know, and people just understood that's
00:08:57
just how I was. And so, you know, they
00:08:59
just arranged orange juice or uh or soft
00:09:01
drinks for me when uh when I go I go all
00:09:03
the parties, but there's just a point
00:09:05
when everyone got completely incoherent
00:09:07
and I remember everything obviously and
00:09:09
uh and there's a point when you go,
00:09:11
okay, I think we uh it might be time to
00:09:12
head home now about midnight. So, um uh
00:09:14
but no, all my friends were really
00:09:16
decent with it. But yeah, you're right.
00:09:18
I mean at that era when we came through
00:09:20
it was there was a lot more peer
00:09:21
pressure a um and it's interesting
00:09:23
because a lot of my friends now in their
00:09:25
late 40s you know early 50s have decided
00:09:27
for different reasons to actually say
00:09:29
hey listen this is something I'm going
00:09:30
to this isn't good for me and um and
00:09:32
it's not that it's not you know not
00:09:33
can't be managed it's just that they've
00:09:35
either decided they're not their best
00:09:36
selves actually when they when they're
00:09:38
impaired like that and so it's
00:09:39
interesting I've had a number of friends
00:09:40
come come actually in their late 40s and
00:09:42
50s come to the same decision that I
00:09:44
came to probably a bit younger but
00:09:47
how did you get how Did you make that
00:09:48
decision yourself or where are you at?
00:09:50
Well, I I still drink, but I'm I'm very
00:09:52
um mindful of um my intake these days.
00:09:54
Um but yeah, similar sort of thing like
00:09:56
all the all my uncles I'm from a very
00:09:58
big Christian family. All my uncles my
00:10:00
granddad had a bar downstairs in his
00:10:01
basement and would go down there and
00:10:02
congregate from a young age. Dad would
00:10:04
let me drink the froth on the beer. I I
00:10:06
understand that was not a a good deal.
00:10:08
Um but we were just always surrounded by
00:10:10
it. But rather than put me off, I I sort
00:10:12
of I I to me I suppose it's what it
00:10:14
meant to be a man. Yeah. To drink
00:10:16
alcohol, which is um incorrect. And you
00:10:17
you
00:10:19
I was quite lucky cuz I think um what
00:10:21
happened for me was that I'd obviously
00:10:23
had that experience where I' i'd spend
00:10:25
my school holidays often with my
00:10:26
grandparents and at that time my family
00:10:28
was living in Oakland. We're born in
00:10:29
Christ Church, lived there for my first
00:10:31
seven years, moved up to how in
00:10:33
Oakuckland um was here for about 9 or 10
00:10:35
years and moved back to Christ Church.
00:10:36
So we were up here and I'd go down for
00:10:38
August school holidays and spend time
00:10:39
with nan and granddad and uh on both
00:10:41
sides of my family. But my dad was
00:10:43
really a real he's he's really my hero
00:10:45
because he sort of really um you know we
00:10:48
came from a background where um you know
00:10:51
there's just a lot of interaction with
00:10:53
the criminal justice system when you go
00:10:54
back through look at our family history
00:10:56
uh and yeah well I mean I studied family
00:10:59
I I really got into my family history
00:11:01
and a bit of genealogy you know probably
00:11:03
10 15 years ago and actually probably
00:11:06
for some time and uh you go back through
00:11:08
the newspapers of yesterday year and
00:11:09
there's an awful lot of Luxons making
00:11:11
appearances at courts and jail time and
00:11:12
stuff like that and being general
00:11:13
nuisances. But my dad was really quite a
00:11:16
good guy because he sort of changed the
00:11:18
course of parenting in my family, you
00:11:20
know, like and being being a good father
00:11:22
and stuff and being really intentional
00:11:24
and very purposeful about that. And I
00:11:26
really admired that because he had come
00:11:27
from pretty challenging circumstances
00:11:29
and obviously determined he wanted to do
00:11:31
it differently and um you set a great
00:11:33
example to me and my two brothers as
00:11:34
well cuz you know I'm the oldest of
00:11:36
three boys. So, you know, he mom and dad
00:11:38
actually I remember when we were growing
00:11:40
up, you know, really alcohol wasn't
00:11:41
really prevalent when we were young
00:11:42
chaps and then um but you know, they
00:11:44
obviously, you know, um love their wines
00:11:46
as did my brothers as well. Well, let's
00:11:48
let's talk about the early years. So, so
00:11:50
I've got a photo of you and this is
00:11:51
something you and I had in common. I had
00:11:52
a cruiser as well. Um
00:11:55
I'm actually on trade I'm on trade me
00:11:57
trying to buy one of those things at the
00:11:58
moment actually just for for sentimental
00:12:00
reasons actually. I don't know whether
00:12:01
you find that as well as you get older
00:12:03
you sort of get bit sentimental about
00:12:04
that stuff. My brother had the HMX 500,
00:12:07
which was the yellow BMX, which was
00:12:08
pretty cool. And this this bike's quite
00:12:11
interesting because it actually was
00:12:13
again my dad because he said to me,
00:12:14
"Chris, look, um, I've been saving up
00:12:16
for a bike. I was about 10 when I got my
00:12:18
my first two-wheeler." And, um, he said,
00:12:21
"Uh, yeah, I'll tell you what. You know,
00:12:22
what sort of bike do you think you'd
00:12:23
like?" And I said, "You know, probably a
00:12:25
Rally 20 or a Heeling Cruiser with the
00:12:26
3-speed with the gear shift on the
00:12:28
handlebar." And he said, "Okay, I'll
00:12:30
tell you what. you're going to go around
00:12:31
and just call up uh in those days we had
00:12:34
classified ads for people listening they
00:12:35
wouldn't know what the hell we're
00:12:36
talking about but um the newspaper would
00:12:38
come with classified ads and you'd look
00:12:39
up and every Saturday morning you get
00:12:40
the big paper and you'd go through and
00:12:42
find the healing cruiser and so I had to
00:12:44
call for three weekends in a row I could
00:12:46
just call people who had healing
00:12:47
cruisers for sale and and dad it was a
00:12:49
sales guy and he taught me to say so sir
00:12:51
um you know I see you've got a healing
00:12:52
cruiser for sale uh you know uh what
00:12:54
color is it? Oh it's green or it's blue.
00:12:55
Okay, are there any is the paint in good
00:12:57
condition or not? What's the tread like
00:12:59
on the tires? um does it come with any
00:13:01
extras like a dynamo which was a light
00:13:03
that was attached to the wheel of a bike
00:13:05
um you know what kind of mud cars so dad
00:13:07
made me go through the whole palava and
00:13:08
he said right we'll go out and we'll
00:13:10
spend your $100 that you've saved up to
00:13:11
buy the secondhand bike and it taught me
00:13:14
a lot about valuing money obviously and
00:13:17
and value and and also how to you know
00:13:19
to negotiate and to do all those sorts
00:13:21
of things and and it's interesting then
00:13:23
you fast forward with your own kids and
00:13:24
of course you're in a different
00:13:26
financial situation and it's easier just
00:13:28
to go down and buy the bike and you know
00:13:30
from the warehouse or whatever you need
00:13:31
to do. Uh and so how do you transfer
00:13:34
those values that my dad was teaching me
00:13:36
of how to buy a bike which was actually
00:13:38
a precursor to how to buy a car and how
00:13:39
to buy a house and teach me those sorts
00:13:41
of things. Um how do you transfer that
00:13:43
to your kids uh when your values you
00:13:46
want to teach those values but you
00:13:47
actually have different you know you
00:13:48
know financial circumstances or
00:13:50
conditions that you're in. So no I love
00:13:52
that bike and from there I got my paper
00:13:53
round and we're away. Did you have a
00:13:55
cruiser as well? Yeah I wanted a BMX.
00:13:57
No, mate. They were wanted me to give me
00:13:58
a sensible bike. Yeah. My brother got
00:14:00
the um Rally 20, but then he got an HMX
00:14:03
600 and then the HMX 500. And that was
00:14:05
Healing, which was a New Zealand bike
00:14:07
company a that made bikes in the late
00:14:09
'7s, early 80s. It was pretty cool. So,
00:14:12
that's one photo. That's cool. Who Who
00:14:14
was um Christopher Lux as a kid? What
00:14:15
What was the most trouble you got in?
00:14:17
Not a lot of trouble. I got into a
00:14:19
little bit more trouble in um in sort of
00:14:21
early high school, third, fourth fourth
00:14:23
form probably. you know was that
00:14:24
troublesome year between school suit as
00:14:26
it was and after you started third form
00:14:28
by what uh they the rain the French
00:14:30
bombed the rainbow warrior if you
00:14:31
remember in 1985 uh 8485 was it and um I
00:14:36
remember I was in French class I didn't
00:14:38
really like French uh that much and I
00:14:39
just thought we'd have a boycott of
00:14:40
French as a result of all of that um at
00:14:43
Howard College uh so that was probably
00:14:44
not the that was probably as you know as
00:14:46
far as I sort of went at that point so
00:14:48
but I was pretty well behaved um pretty
00:14:51
um I mean I was the old I was born My
00:14:53
parents were young, you know, they were
00:14:54
21, 22 when I was born. They had left
00:14:57
school at 15, 16. Um, they're awesome
00:15:00
parents, amazing people. Um, my mom went
00:15:02
on to become a therapist and a counselor
00:15:04
and stuff. Um, I actually got her to
00:15:06
come to university when I'd got to
00:15:07
university. But I was a pretty, you
00:15:09
know, I I'm a big extrovert, so I get a
00:15:12
lot of energy from being around people.
00:15:13
Um, and so that's always been the case.
00:15:15
It's how I process by talking and and
00:15:18
meeting with people. Um um and yeah, I
00:15:22
just pretty pretty Yeah, pretty pretty
00:15:24
well behaved oldest child, I guess.
00:15:26
Well, you you must have been a bully at
00:15:27
some point to your younger siblings.
00:15:28
It's a right of passage, isn't it? Yeah.
00:15:30
Well, we were actually really close and
00:15:31
my parents did a very good job. So, I'm
00:15:33
the oldest of three boys, right?
00:15:34
Christopher, Carl, and Matthew. And um
00:15:36
we're all quite close in ages, probably
00:15:38
three of us under the age of five. And
00:15:40
but actually, we were taught that we all
00:15:42
had different skills. And mom and dad
00:15:44
were actually, you know, said, you know,
00:15:45
you're different, but you're equal. And
00:15:47
so I was, you know, good at sport and
00:15:49
and liked um school and study and stuff
00:15:51
like that. Carl's incredibly creative
00:15:53
and, you know, uber smart. Uh and
00:15:55
Matthew awesome people person and um you
00:15:58
know, has gone into big environmental
00:15:59
spaces and stuff like that. Um, so we
00:16:02
were raised to sort of really respect
00:16:04
each other's differences and and my mom
00:16:05
was really thoughtful about that stuff
00:16:08
and there were different times when
00:16:09
actually we're all at different schools
00:16:10
because mom and dad were trying to match
00:16:12
the school to the kid, you know, to make
00:16:14
sure that we were sort of um and I was
00:16:16
one of those kids that was going to be
00:16:17
fine anywhere I kind of went. Um, then
00:16:19
the brother Carl at one point he needed
00:16:21
a bit more external discipline and you
00:16:23
know he needed something different. So
00:16:24
um, so it was all good. So, we were
00:16:26
raised we're really tight and um and in
00:16:28
fact it's interesting because we all
00:16:30
left home at the same time. All three of
00:16:32
us left home and we never went back and
00:16:34
so mom and dad at 44 uh had no kids at
00:16:37
home. We' all left and we never never
00:16:38
came home. And so the three of us then
00:16:40
went uh our sort of individual ways
00:16:43
building our careers and Matthew, the
00:16:45
youngest, was overseas for a bit. I was
00:16:46
obviously overseas for 16 years. Carl
00:16:48
was building his career here in New
00:16:49
Zealand and hospitality and hotels and
00:16:52
things. But every time I came home um
00:16:55
every year we'd go to devotional
00:16:56
campground and just out of Christ Church
00:16:59
uh on the road to Akaroa. And we also
00:17:01
worked quite hard to make sure that just
00:17:03
the three of us had time without our
00:17:04
partners and without our kids just to
00:17:06
build new experiences together because
00:17:08
often for guys it's the shared
00:17:10
experiences of the things we've done
00:17:11
together that builds the relationship.
00:17:13
And a lot of our reference was obviously
00:17:15
when we're at home and all the crazy
00:17:16
stuff we got up to there. But as adults
00:17:19
and as people that you know, how do you
00:17:20
feed and keep feeding that relationship
00:17:22
as you as you move through your 20s and
00:17:24
30s and you're actually living apart
00:17:26
from each other? And it's one of the
00:17:28
great joys of my life now is, you know,
00:17:29
that I get to I talk to my brothers
00:17:31
probably, you know, once or twice a
00:17:33
week, you know. Wow. Yeah. Mom and dad
00:17:34
every day, every second day. Um so we're
00:17:37
really tight family. Yeah. Yeah. So, so
00:17:39
if I've got the um calculations correct,
00:17:40
your your parents are still younger than
00:17:42
the deputy prime minister and younger
00:17:44
than the previous two American
00:17:46
presidents. Yeah. Yeah, they are. So,
00:17:48
mom and dad are um 76. Uh yeah, 70.
00:17:51
Yeah, 76. Yeah. Yeah. Your mom Your mom
00:17:54
sound Kathleen. She sounds amazing. When
00:17:56
When did you last have some bacon and
00:17:58
egg pie? Uh not that. Uh actually, I
00:18:00
haven't had bacon egg pie from her for a
00:18:02
while, but she makes some mean bacon and
00:18:03
egg pie, but obviously spoke to her on
00:18:05
on Mother's Day on Sunday and uh due to
00:18:07
talk to her later on this afternoon. But
00:18:09
mom's really cool. Yeah. So dad was
00:18:11
really came from a pretty tough
00:18:12
background and um really became as I
00:18:15
said I remember writing him a letter
00:18:16
actually when I was 30 about just
00:18:18
thanking him for changing the course of
00:18:20
I I called it a river of how he changed
00:18:22
the and bent the river sort of to change
00:18:23
the course of parenting in our family as
00:18:25
a dad and my mom's amazing as well she
00:18:27
left school at 15 uh ended up um but
00:18:30
very intuitive really good you know big
00:18:33
feeling person very thoughtful very
00:18:35
smart and I got to university and I was
00:18:37
the first ever to go to university in my
00:18:38
family I didn't know anyone who had been
00:18:40
to university um really and I got there
00:18:43
and I was in my second or third year and
00:18:45
I said to mom you you should come to
00:18:47
university mom you'd be awesome and um
00:18:49
and so she came to University of
00:18:51
Canterbury when I was there I think and
00:18:53
just as I was finishing up uh and she uh
00:18:55
did a diploma in social work and then
00:18:58
she's gone on to become a really
00:19:00
outstanding you know therapist counselor
00:19:03
um and and she always had that
00:19:05
orientation she always read a lot you
00:19:06
know as I was growing up as a kid and um
00:19:09
was really thoughtful about that stuff.
00:19:10
And yeah, she's amazing. I mean, even
00:19:12
today, you know, at 76, she supervises a
00:19:15
whole range of counselors and has some
00:19:16
of her own private clients still today.
00:19:18
But as a result, I I was really
00:19:20
privileged because I grew up in a family
00:19:21
where my father was uh had worked from
00:19:24
the bottom up, you know, and had worked
00:19:25
really hard to become a sales rep and
00:19:27
then a sales manager, worked for a
00:19:28
company called Johnson and Johnson.
00:19:30
Yeah. And then my mom had, you know,
00:19:32
sort of been very interested in sort of,
00:19:35
you know, psychology and and
00:19:37
personalities and and all that sort of
00:19:39
thing. And so I sort of felt I got a
00:19:41
good uh upbringing in terms of, you
00:19:44
know, sort of both the soft and the hard
00:19:46
and sort of I think it she they were
00:19:48
very determined to build good EQ skills
00:19:49
for what you'd call it today uh into
00:19:51
into us. And um I think that served me
00:19:54
incredibly well. The mom was always of
00:19:55
the of the view which was I remember
00:19:57
saying to me as a little chat, you know,
00:19:58
walk across the room and find someone
00:20:00
different from you and and talk to them.
00:20:02
And I I remember saying the same thing
00:20:04
to my kids when I was parenting as well
00:20:06
because, you know, it was like, you
00:20:07
know, schools can be very clicky and and
00:20:10
you said even more so, I think, in this
00:20:11
day and age. And I said to Olivia, you
00:20:13
know, you got to be Switzerland, you
00:20:14
know, you got to be friendly with
00:20:15
everybody, you know, and um and you find
00:20:17
that kid that sort of is a bit lost and
00:20:19
go go say hello and and you never know
00:20:20
what's going to happen when you do that.
00:20:22
So, um, yeah, I think mom, you know,
00:20:24
really got me thinking about people and
00:20:27
care of people. And dad was, you know,
00:20:29
just a born optimist, you know, just
00:20:31
don't let your circumstances define who
00:20:33
you are and where you're going and what
00:20:34
you're about. So, um, and so that
00:20:36
combination was pretty special to be
00:20:38
invested in me really. H how do they how
00:20:41
do they cope with I mean, it's a surreal
00:20:43
position, your son growing up to be the
00:20:44
prime minister of the country. How do
00:20:46
they cope with um like the criticism?
00:20:48
Uh, I'm just thinking of my mom. Like my
00:20:49
mom is she's my biggest cheerleader.
00:20:51
Like same. She's super supportive. So
00:20:53
when when people are calling you like
00:20:55
bland or boring or whatever, like I
00:20:57
think that's really hard. Well, they
00:20:59
call us a lot worse than that. Let's be
00:21:00
honest about it. Um, but mom the first
00:21:03
time sort of I guess I I cuz I'd left
00:21:05
home at I left New Zealand at 24. Amanda
00:21:08
and I had met at 15 um and we were away
00:21:10
overseas. And then I came back and
00:21:12
obviously took on the New Zealand job
00:21:13
which had more public profile I guess in
00:21:15
New Zealand um than most CEO jobs. And
00:21:18
then when I came into politics, I
00:21:19
remember mom had read the first article
00:21:21
and I think when the Herald and she
00:21:22
said, "Oh gee, they don't like you that
00:21:24
much." I said, "Mom, what do you mean?"
00:21:25
I said the article was okay. She said,
00:21:27
"Oh, I read all the comment section. I
00:21:28
said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:21:30
Please don't do that. They ain't going
00:21:32
to like your little boy." So like, let's
00:21:33
just be really clear about this. Uh so
00:21:35
um I think it's really difficult for
00:21:37
them. I think it's actually in some ways
00:21:38
harder for them than it is and family
00:21:40
than it is for me personally going
00:21:42
through the experience and I'm sure you
00:21:44
know Chris Hipkins and John Key and
00:21:45
Justinda would say similar things but it
00:21:47
is you know you you do life with these
00:21:50
family and friends that actually love
00:21:51
you because of who you are not because
00:21:53
of what you do. Um and also you know
00:21:56
they they take a lot of the the you know
00:21:58
the bruising from the criticism as well.
00:22:00
and and if you're not if you're not in
00:22:02
the political world um you know which my
00:22:04
parents aren't they're just really
00:22:06
decent good people who um you know tried
00:22:08
to raise a great family and and help
00:22:10
people um you know some of that can be
00:22:12
quite quite challenging so I think
00:22:14
they've all learned coping mechanisms
00:22:16
for actually you know not making it
00:22:18
personal um and that's what I've had to
00:22:20
do and that's what you know the family
00:22:21
does as well
00:22:23
yeah from what I can gather you've had
00:22:25
very few jobs in your career c can I try
00:22:28
and do them from current to okay So, um,
00:22:30
politics, y uh, airline boss. Yeah. Uh,
00:22:34
unilver for various roles for 17 years.
00:22:36
16 years. 16 years. Um, porter at Crown
00:22:40
Plaza. Yeah. Park Park Royal Hotel
00:22:42
Crush. Um, three years at McDonald's.
00:22:45
Yeah. And And um a neighborhood window
00:22:48
washing business at 12. Yeah. Yeah. Is
00:22:50
that the lot? Yeah. That's pretty much
00:22:52
it. I mean, it's um it's been
00:22:54
interesting actually my career because
00:22:56
Yeah. As I said, my dad was a real um
00:22:58
positivity kind of guy, you know. I
00:23:00
remember he I read a book called Life is
00:23:02
Tremendous by Charlie Tremendous Jones
00:23:04
and he would have given it to all the
00:23:05
sales reps and I must have been about 12
00:23:06
or 13. And so I was always encouraged to
00:23:09
do like entrepreneurial things. So I had
00:23:11
a lot of things on the go as a kid
00:23:12
through you know my teenage life. I was
00:23:14
a I had a professional window cleaning
00:23:16
round. I had um a fence painting, roof
00:23:18
painting and deck painting business
00:23:19
here. Um I traded Commando War
00:23:22
magazines. You might remember those.
00:23:24
Remember remember those. an intermediate
00:23:26
age. We we had those and uh and so I I
00:23:29
was just doing lots of stuff like that.
00:23:31
I had an artificial flower business that
00:23:33
I would you know that would get people
00:23:34
would contract for a monthly service and
00:23:36
flower arrangers would come and go all
00:23:38
through university and I was I I learned
00:23:40
to um I I was sort of learned to take
00:23:43
responsibility for financial things
00:23:44
pretty early on and um so yeah that was
00:23:47
it and I obviously worked at McDonald's
00:23:49
which I loved and in Christ Church when
00:23:50
it came to town it was a big deal and
00:23:52
then I worked at the porter as a porter
00:23:54
at the park rail but a lot of it was
00:23:55
people stuff right I love people and as
00:23:58
an extrovert sort of engaging with that
00:23:59
and then I went to university, did a
00:24:01
three-year BCOM, and then I got asked I
00:24:03
got into a one-year masters of commerce
00:24:05
and business administration and halfway
00:24:07
through that year, I got recruited by
00:24:09
this company called Uni Lever, which one
00:24:10
of the biggest companies in the world as
00:24:12
on their management trainee program. And
00:24:14
so I came out of that with after my four
00:24:16
years with the two degrees and joined
00:24:18
Unilver and um it was an amazing place
00:24:21
for a kid from Christ Church you know
00:24:22
because um they then you know uh I
00:24:26
joined the graduate program which was
00:24:28
you did a lot of psych testing and
00:24:30
leadership development and investment
00:24:31
happened over that period of time and so
00:24:34
I then got into you know a global pool
00:24:36
of talent and that was what led me then
00:24:38
moving around the world. So I had two
00:24:39
years here in New Zealand, 5 years in
00:24:41
Sydney, and then time in London,
00:24:43
Chicago, Toronto, and New York. And I
00:24:46
love that place cuz it was one of the
00:24:47
big global companies of the world. You
00:24:48
got to travel all over the place. I
00:24:50
probably visited every country. Um I was
00:24:53
doing a global job while I was also
00:24:54
trying to run bits of the American
00:24:56
business or uh Asian business. And so it
00:24:59
was just a really very stimulating
00:25:00
environment and a great educational
00:25:02
environment really. Are you still brand
00:25:04
loyal now? What deodorant are you
00:25:06
wearing today? Uh, today I'm still
00:25:07
wearing my Rexana deodorant and my Yep.
00:25:10
Yeah, exactly. Can you Can you use my
00:25:12
Dove body wash this morning? Why Why is
00:25:14
there so little deodorant in the in the
00:25:16
bottles you buy? Oh, I can't I I can't I
00:25:19
don't know where that's what they call
00:25:20
shrinkflation, isn't it? Right. Over
00:25:22
inflation. They sort of do that. But,
00:25:23
um, the weirdest thing was I ended up
00:25:25
running sort of, you know, being
00:25:26
responsible for hair care companies. And
00:25:28
when you look like me, I mean, and you
00:25:29
and you rocking to Tony and Guy and, uh,
00:25:31
I think we bought the Tony and Guy
00:25:33
business as well. And it's sort of like
00:25:35
you end up paying a lot more for the
00:25:36
businesses because you sort of they
00:25:38
think you're going to just destroy
00:25:38
value, you know, cuz it's like you got
00:25:41
you got this bull guy showing us we can
00:25:43
do wonderful things with your hair care
00:25:44
company if you let us buy it off you.
00:25:45
But um but honestly for a kid from New
00:25:47
Zealand to be able to uh it got me very
00:25:50
globally oriented, which I was what I
00:25:52
was always wanting to do. And so for me
00:25:54
actually a lot of what I learned at
00:25:55
unilver uh people probably don't realize
00:25:57
but it's very helpful in the roles that
00:25:59
I do now on the international front
00:26:01
connecting with world leaders or going
00:26:03
to countries. So when I I was probably I
00:26:06
think I probably came to the job of
00:26:07
prime minister one of the prime
00:26:09
ministers that knew the world the best
00:26:10
because I sort of had worked for one of
00:26:11
the big global multinational companies
00:26:13
and I had been to India multiple times.
00:26:16
I've been to, you know, Manila multiple
00:26:18
times and uh China many many times and
00:26:20
so I understand those markets and I
00:26:22
understand the countries pretty well and
00:26:25
um I used to do things like cuz I
00:26:27
traveled probably internationally every
00:26:28
week um for a long period of time. Um,
00:26:31
one is that I would sort of get to a
00:26:33
country and I had a rule which was you
00:26:35
I'd go from the airport and I'd go
00:26:36
straight to someone's house, a
00:26:38
consumer's house and I'd have 2 hours of
00:26:40
a conversation that I could talk about
00:26:41
anything I wanted to talk about um to
00:26:43
try and understand what was happening
00:26:45
for people in those countries. And so I
00:26:47
remember flying into Russia um and
00:26:49
Moscow and going to an apartment and
00:26:51
meeting with a couple there and I could
00:26:53
talk to them before I met anybody from
00:26:55
the business, you know, before because
00:26:57
they were often wealthy expatriots and
00:26:59
living a different life from what you
00:27:00
felt the people were living. And that
00:27:02
way I didn't just bounce around the
00:27:04
world, you know, staying in a Hilton
00:27:05
hotel that was the same whether it was
00:27:07
in Bangkok or or America or or Argentina
00:27:10
or somewhere. Um so I think, you know,
00:27:12
that part of being a part of a global
00:27:13
business like that was really great. Um
00:27:15
you learned lots around lots of
00:27:17
different you know parts of business
00:27:19
obviously and different businesses that
00:27:20
you were responsible for but that needed
00:27:22
turnaround sorting out cleaning up mix
00:27:24
you know growth but the most incredible
00:27:27
thing was you work with some really
00:27:28
smart people and so you learn a lot of
00:27:30
people skills as well and actually what
00:27:32
I learned in life was it's not actually
00:27:34
your book smarts that really determine
00:27:36
how far you go. It's actually are you
00:27:38
curious about learning new things? Can
00:27:40
you deal with conflict? Um can you
00:27:42
communicate effectively? Uh, and do you
00:27:44
have good character? And those are the
00:27:45
things that ultimately determine, you
00:27:47
know, how high people go ultimately.
00:27:50
You mentioned your your hair or lack of
00:27:52
just a second ago. I've I've got a photo
00:27:54
here of you at McDonald's. It's a
00:27:55
fabulous fabulous hair. Um, this might
00:27:58
seem like a great trip down memory lane.
00:28:00
It's awesome. This this might seem like
00:28:01
a silly question, but um, it's a serious
00:28:04
question for me cuz I've got I've got a
00:28:05
few friends that are bored and a couple
00:28:06
of them are still in their 40s and they
00:28:08
won't be seen without a baseball cap.
00:28:09
Yeah, I've got a mate who's um a
00:28:10
good-look fit dude and he's been bored
00:28:12
and I never thought anything of it, but
00:28:13
he went to Turkey last year to get a
00:28:15
hair transplant. I've seen that mate on
00:28:17
YouTube transformed his life between the
00:28:18
veneers and the hair transplants. Yeah.
00:28:20
Yeah. What was your relationship like
00:28:22
with losing your hair? Oh, it was just
00:28:23
like let's embrace it. You know, there's
00:28:25
not much you can do about it. It's pure
00:28:26
genetics. Um let's go for it. And so, um
00:28:29
you know, you know, in your head you
00:28:31
think, well, Jason Staithm, he's a
00:28:32
good-looking bull dude. You know, Joe
00:28:34
Rogan. Yeah, Joe Rogan. You know,
00:28:36
there's plenty of us now.
00:28:39
I'm doing this job for the bald men of
00:28:40
New Zealand, showing what's possible. We
00:28:42
can't all be male models like yourself
00:28:44
with a full head of hair. But um but no,
00:28:46
like I mean um look, it wasn't I mean it
00:28:49
was just something I just you know you
00:28:50
just have to embrace and go with it,
00:28:52
right? It is what it is. And so um uh
00:28:54
but you funny you funny you say that I
00:28:55
was going through Turkey after coming
00:28:57
back from Gallipoli and I passed through
00:28:58
Istanbul to meet with the president of
00:29:00
Turkey and I um yeah I real didn't
00:29:03
realize man there's a whole new um
00:29:04
cosmetic tourism industry that's coming
00:29:06
out of Turkey that's got some pretty
00:29:08
cool looks going on. It's massive. Yeah.
00:29:10
When I went there the hotel the hotel
00:29:11
buffet in the morning dudes everywhere
00:29:12
with bands on and like blood coming out
00:29:15
of their paws. I reckon you might Yeah.
00:29:18
It would have been quite funny if I'd
00:29:19
come back from Turkey uh like that. I
00:29:22
walked into cabinet the next week and
00:29:23
gone, "Hi guys, good to see you again."
00:29:26
Imagine that. Um, I've got another photo
00:29:28
for you. Um, it's yourself and that's
00:29:31
awesome. So, um, best decision I ever
00:29:33
made. Yeah. So, what's the So, you I've
00:29:36
read various stories. So, you you're 15
00:29:38
and she's 17 when you met. Um, I've
00:29:40
heard it was a church youth group thing.
00:29:44
Belong to a big church youth group and
00:29:45
we had a lot of friends. you know, 60 70
00:29:47
kids there and we had a progressive
00:29:48
what's called in the old days had this
00:29:50
thing called progressive dinner and so
00:29:51
you go around different kids' parents'
00:29:53
houses and um you know you'd have a a
00:29:55
main course an entree dessert you know
00:29:58
whatever snacks food so we were on a car
00:30:00
rally and it was a sort of a car rally
00:30:02
where you had to sort of answer
00:30:03
questions and quizzes and stuff like
00:30:05
that and we just moved back from Oakland
00:30:06
to Christ Church um and I got to meet
00:30:08
Amanda through that and you know we met
00:30:11
when we were 15 we really became really
00:30:12
good friends with a big group of kids
00:30:14
and yeah I actually think that's
00:30:15
important for kids to have quite wide
00:30:18
circles of friends. I my kids were
00:30:20
pretty much the same. And um we started
00:30:22
dating at 19, married at 23, and then
00:30:24
did life the rest of life together. And
00:30:26
honestly, best decision I'll ever make.
00:30:28
You know, greatest privilege of my life
00:30:30
being married to Manda. When when um so
00:30:33
you knew each other for four years as
00:30:34
friends before you got together as a
00:30:35
couple. Did you did you have a crush on
00:30:38
her? Were you in love with her during
00:30:40
that time? I mean, yeah, I mean, we just
00:30:42
we were friends first, you know, sort
00:30:43
of. And um but yeah, obviously I thought
00:30:46
she was stunning. Yeah. And uh and you
00:30:48
know, we went to you we're partnering
00:30:50
with each other at school balls and or
00:30:52
actually her teachers college ball. She
00:30:53
was she's 2 years older than me, but
00:30:55
she's also left school at six form, went
00:30:57
straight to university from the six
00:30:58
form. So I was actually three years
00:30:59
ahead of me at at um academically and
00:31:01
stuff. And so um yeah, to this day she
00:31:04
uh is still a bit upset that I didn't
00:31:06
invite her as my date to my school ball,
00:31:08
but I went to her teachers college ball
00:31:10
was her her date. So um but no you know
00:31:12
that that without doubt is sort of the
00:31:14
the thing that I think you know Amanda's
00:31:16
my rock really in terms of we've you
00:31:18
know done life together with all its ups
00:31:20
and downs and you know obviously we have
00:31:23
both come from pretty similar
00:31:24
backgrounds and family wise and our
00:31:26
parents have subsequently got to know
00:31:28
each other well and are good friends and
00:31:29
that's been you know great for us
00:31:31
raising our kids uh to have their both
00:31:33
grandparents you know in relationships
00:31:34
with each other too but you know we left
00:31:37
we left New Zealand as I said when I was
00:31:38
24 and um you know we went and had you
00:31:40
know William was born in Sydney and
00:31:42
Olivia was born in London and the kids
00:31:43
were really raised in Chicago and um you
00:31:46
know you have to get really tight you
00:31:48
know as a couple of how do you do I had
00:31:50
quite extreme jobs at a young age I had
00:31:52
big jobs at a young age she also was an
00:31:55
outstanding teacher um and then became a
00:31:57
really great consultant working with
00:31:59
MyersBriggs and conflict management with
00:32:01
boards and teams and all that sort of
00:32:03
skill set and is just really smart and
00:32:06
so you know there were times when for
00:32:08
her to carry on with her consulting I
00:32:10
was in a stable place and able to do all
00:32:12
the school run and stuff like that and
00:32:13
she could do more of that. But she's
00:32:15
been awesome on this whole journey of
00:32:17
that we've been on together. So, um,
00:32:19
yeah, it's pretty awesome really. I
00:32:21
mean, really amazing. Was the proposal
00:32:23
anything special? What did you What did
00:32:25
you do? Um, I actually for three of the
00:32:27
four years we were dating, we were in
00:32:29
different cities, you know, so actually
00:32:30
made our communication skills get really
00:32:32
tight. And it sounds, you know, we were
00:32:33
young and um but actually we I think
00:32:36
both had our heads, you know, on screwed
00:32:38
on pretty well and sort of, you know,
00:32:39
wanted to get, you know, good at that.
00:32:41
So, no, I came down to Christ Church. I
00:32:42
remember uh going out to the garage to
00:32:44
ask Tom, her dad, who had recently just
00:32:46
said I could call, stop calling him Mr.
00:32:48
Ray, and call him Tom, which I didn't
00:32:49
mean, so I didn't call him anything for
00:32:50
a year cuz I was too embarrassed to call
00:32:52
him anything. And then I went out to the
00:32:53
garage to sort of ask for formal
00:32:54
permission to marry his daughter. And I
00:32:56
remember there was a guy Ray who was his
00:32:58
neighbor who was over in his basically
00:33:00
his his tight shorts and his um tank top
00:33:02
and he was talking to Tom and I got too
00:33:04
nervous to ask Tom formally for
00:33:05
permission and you know just it was a
00:33:07
standard uh proposal at a at a
00:33:08
restaurant in Christ Church which was
00:33:09
pretty cool. And did you did you save
00:33:11
yourselves for marriage? Well, I mean we
00:33:13
um yeah we were very committed to each
00:33:15
other. Yeah. And so that's been our you
00:33:17
know we we basically I wanted to make
00:33:19
sure when I go into a relationship with
00:33:20
someone I want to do it for life and
00:33:21
that was Amanda for me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:23
That's cool. What what's the biggest
00:33:25
argument or conflict you guys have had?
00:33:27
We don't we don't actually have huge
00:33:29
Barney, you know, like it's actually
00:33:30
interesting. You know, our personalities
00:33:32
are such that we sort of, you know,
00:33:34
Amanda's probably more of an introvert.
00:33:36
She needs to get up in the morning, do a
00:33:38
12k run, come back, do her fitness
00:33:40
stuff, and um and that's how she
00:33:43
processes. She's a very gregarious
00:33:44
introvert, I'd say, is how I'd describe
00:33:46
it. Um but no, we tend to process along
00:33:49
the way. So, you know, if we've got
00:33:50
irritants with each other or issues with
00:33:52
each other, we we just openly just talk
00:33:53
about before before the end of a day.
00:33:55
And um I was lucky I I had awesome
00:33:58
grandparents who, you know, on my mom's
00:34:00
side who were married for a very long
00:34:02
time, you know, I think 60 something
00:34:03
years. Uh my parents been married for,
00:34:05
you know, 55 years. So, we had good
00:34:07
models of parenting uh and and and
00:34:10
relationships. But no, we our issues are
00:34:12
are very small in the scheme of things.
00:34:14
Um and if we do, we we just sit down and
00:34:16
talk it out. We we've done things ever
00:34:18
since we were actually dating. We would,
00:34:20
you know, we would actually just go on
00:34:22
walks and just talk about, you know, how
00:34:24
we want things to be. You know, every
00:34:26
Christmas we'd come home to New Zealand.
00:34:29
The mom and dad would take the kids. Um
00:34:31
we we'd check into a hotel for two or
00:34:32
three days and actually just spend the
00:34:34
time thinking about what our year ahead
00:34:36
looks like, what we need from each
00:34:37
other, what we're going to do with the
00:34:38
kids. And for people listening, they go,
00:34:40
"Gee, this sounds very very planned and
00:34:41
organized." And it's
00:34:45
just life just carries on, right? And
00:34:47
you often don't get to stop and say,
00:34:49
"Hey, listen. Are we good? Are we okay?
00:34:51
What's going on for you? How are you
00:34:52
handling this? What do I need to do to
00:34:54
support you this year? Where are our
00:34:55
kids at? What do I think we need to
00:34:57
focus on this coming year with each of
00:34:58
them? Um, what are we doing well? What
00:35:00
do we not what do we need to step up um
00:35:02
and and do better?" So, that's the way
00:35:05
we kind of operate. And it probably
00:35:06
sounds odd for people listening, but
00:35:07
it's just what's been what's made it
00:35:09
work for us.
00:35:11
Um it seems odd but in in the best
00:35:13
possible way like it's all stuff that
00:35:14
takes effort. It and if you got a busy
00:35:16
job and you come home and you're tired
00:35:18
often the last thing you want to do is
00:35:19
communicate. I I I agree and I think you
00:35:21
know I learned that um I worked for a
00:35:23
lot of very senior folk um in my career
00:35:25
and I had big jobs early and I remember
00:35:28
talking to a guy came to see me in
00:35:29
Toronto once and he was like you know
00:35:31
early 50s and he said uh Chris I'm
00:35:33
life's not good. And I said what's going
00:35:35
on mate? And he says well I'm working 80
00:35:37
to 100 hours a week. He says I'm going
00:35:39
home. I'm really grumpy with my partner
00:35:41
and my my kids. I'm tired and I'm
00:35:44
fatigued all the time and life's not
00:35:46
good. And so we talked about it, you
00:35:47
know, and what I've learned is it's
00:35:49
actually about energy management, you
00:35:51
know, and I always believe, you know,
00:35:52
you've got to get connected to you, you
00:35:55
need mental stimulation, you know,
00:35:56
that's often your job. Uh you need
00:35:58
obviously physical, you know, uh keep
00:36:00
yourself healthy. You need social
00:36:02
stimulation and and whether it's
00:36:04
spiritual or purpose or something that's
00:36:06
connected. And when you get out of whack
00:36:07
and get stressed, it's because you're
00:36:08
overworking one of those four energy
00:36:10
types, you know, and you've actually got
00:36:12
to try and stay really balanced across
00:36:13
the whole piece of it. And it's hard,
00:36:15
you know, cuz life's complex and life is
00:36:17
hard, you know, and um and so for us,
00:36:20
that's what that check-in is really
00:36:21
about, you know. um uh you know you can
00:36:24
get over exercised where you get very
00:36:26
connected to your work and you get into
00:36:28
work you know just work mode all the
00:36:30
time and you don't allow yourself
00:36:32
moments to refresh and recharge and to
00:36:34
to put stuff into the bottle when you're
00:36:36
giving out a lot. Um so for me you know
00:36:38
I've always been I learned that from
00:36:40
Steven Kovi reading books when I was
00:36:42
very young at 17. you know, how do you
00:36:44
how do you manage energy as much as time
00:36:46
is really important? And that's a lot of
00:36:48
what our conversations are about is
00:36:50
okay, well, which which people are we
00:36:52
going to invest in our relationships
00:36:53
this year that, you know, that we, you
00:36:54
know, are good friends that we need to,
00:36:56
you know, take to a deeper level. What
00:36:58
what are the what what what do I man
00:37:00
often afflicting me around my physical
00:37:01
exercise because I love exercise. We
00:37:03
used to do a lot of it together and then
00:37:05
now with my job, it's been the one thing
00:37:06
I've actually struggled to sort of get
00:37:08
integrated, you know. I mean, you're um
00:37:10
you're a you're a you're a you're a
00:37:12
brisk walker. You're like I've not have
00:37:14
you notic a very very quick cadence when
00:37:16
you walk. Like if if you and Biden did a
00:37:18
like 100 me walking race, I reckon I'd
00:37:20
be at 25 to 30 m by the time you finish.
00:37:23
Yeah. My DPS guys say I walk quick. They
00:37:25
reckon I go 8K an hour. But what is your
00:37:27
Do you have like a set morning routine
00:37:28
or anything or I used to and that's to
00:37:30
be honest, Dom, that's the one thing
00:37:31
I've really struggled with in this job
00:37:33
is my body loves exercise and I
00:37:36
personally do as well. Um it's something
00:37:37
I really enjoyed. So Amanda and I used
00:37:39
to have, you know, we'd have a trainer
00:37:40
come when we lived in North America and,
00:37:42
you know, we'd really fogg ourselves. We
00:37:44
have a, you know, little a garage
00:37:46
converted into a gym at home. Um, I I
00:37:48
find because my routine's pretty full
00:37:50
on, right? So I'm sort of I've always
00:37:52
been up, you know, as a little even as a
00:37:54
young chap, you know, at 4:30 in the
00:37:56
morning. I then in in a parliamentary
00:37:58
week, I can go through to 12:00 or 1 at
00:38:00
night quite often. Um, and I've I'm
00:38:02
fortunate and because I think because I
00:38:04
had those global jobs when I was in my,
00:38:06
you know, late 20s. Um, and I'm used to
00:38:09
bouncing in and out of time zones and
00:38:10
things that I just got used to surviving
00:38:12
on very little sleep. And so I've always
00:38:14
been of the view that when I step
00:38:15
through that front door at my house, at
00:38:17
my home, it's my problem is the jet lag,
00:38:19
the tiredness, the fatigue, any of that.
00:38:21
And it's not Amanda's or the kids'
00:38:22
problem. I've got to be on for them. Um,
00:38:24
so for me, the then the temptation
00:38:26
becomes, well, I want to get up early
00:38:29
and go fogg myself and and um and go for
00:38:31
it um in the way that I can at times
00:38:33
when I might get a little bit of a break
00:38:34
or a holiday for a week or so. Um but um
00:38:38
but then you know actually I also need
00:38:39
to get you I'm trying to balance quite a
00:38:41
few things. So it's the one thing that I
00:38:43
don't think I've done well enough which
00:38:44
is integrate my um physical exercise and
00:38:47
and diet and stuff into into this job.
00:38:50
Where's the time though? E where's the
00:38:51
time? It's a full-on job. I mean you
00:38:53
probably spoken to you know Chris
00:38:54
Hipkins and and you know John Key and
00:38:57
Justinda Adam would say the same thing.
00:38:58
I mean it is a unique experience. I mean
00:39:00
you are drinking from a fire hydrant
00:39:02
from morning to night. um you can plan
00:39:05
as much as you possibly can and I'm
00:39:07
quite I'm a very planned and organized
00:39:09
kind of person um and we have pretty
00:39:11
good processes around how we operate um
00:39:13
at work at at the office but um equally
00:39:16
you've got to allow for margin for
00:39:18
things that just come from left field
00:39:20
and and throw you off course and so yeah
00:39:22
it's a full-on job and uh that's what I
00:39:24
love about it too you know like it it is
00:39:26
and I've always felt it's a life balance
00:39:28
thing you know people talk about this
00:39:29
work life balance I've never bought that
00:39:31
I've always thought it's a life balance
00:39:33
and It's, you know, I'm doing this right
00:39:35
now. You and I are doing this right now.
00:39:36
There'll be a gazillion emails and phone
00:39:38
calls outside. I'm not here
00:39:40
multi-purposing trying to do multiple.
00:39:41
We This is important. We're going to do
00:39:43
this. We're going to have power of full
00:39:44
engagement right now doing this stuff.
00:39:46
So, I think um yeah, it is challenging.
00:39:48
You know, there's you you you're under a
00:39:49
huge pressure um all the time. There's
00:39:51
just um a content and a volume of stuff
00:39:53
coming at you. If any if decisions were
00:39:56
easy, they're made further down the
00:39:58
chain. Um but the hard stuff comes your
00:40:00
way typically. So, um, but that's why
00:40:03
you want to do the job, right? I mean,
00:40:04
that's why you really want to do the
00:40:06
job. You want to be in the arena. You
00:40:07
want to be, uh, dealing with those
00:40:09
issues. Um, it's a huge responsibility,
00:40:11
but it's a huge privilege.
00:40:14
What would, um, your kids, uh, William
00:40:15
and Olivia and your wife M, what would
00:40:17
they say your best and worst habits are?
00:40:19
Oh, um, I think they would say like I
00:40:22
genuinely think, yeah, like I've I've
00:40:24
had extreme jobs, you know, from a very
00:40:26
young age, right? I mean, I've really
00:40:27
had like big jobs early and I think
00:40:30
they've they would say my kids would say
00:40:31
that they feel that I've always been
00:40:33
very present and that I'm around uh for
00:40:35
them. We don't talk politics at home
00:40:37
just to give you a feel for what goes on
00:40:39
in that dynamic. My kids, I am their
00:40:41
dad. Nothing has changed when I was CEO
00:40:43
of New Zealand or prime minister of New
00:40:45
Zealand. Um nothing's changed. I haven't
00:40:47
had a deep political conversation with
00:40:48
my kids on any of the topics. They have
00:40:50
strong opinions. They'll tell me if they
00:40:51
feel strongly about stuff. Um but for
00:40:53
them, I'm just dad and that's been quite
00:40:55
cool. Um but they would say look I think
00:40:58
he's been pretty present. Um I'm pretty
00:41:01
um I'm pretty organized and so you know
00:41:04
um part of my job as a dad is also to
00:41:06
set ambition and aspiration in my kids
00:41:08
as well and so you know it's part of it
00:41:09
is also probably to push them a little
00:41:11
bit as well. Um and I think that's
00:41:13
important. You know what worst habits
00:41:15
though worst habits? They they know you
00:41:18
better than anyone. Oh there's got to be
00:41:21
something. Um, they probably don't
00:41:23
appreciate getting sent the the baby
00:41:25
videos that I might watch at at 1:30 in
00:41:27
the morning on like videos. Oh, yeah.
00:41:29
I'm the algorithms on my social media
00:41:31
are just weird, mate. Like, I'm in a
00:41:33
phase where I'm getting sent all this
00:41:35
home renovation stuff and DIY stuff and
00:41:37
and hacks at the moment. And so, um,
00:41:40
I'll often send my daughter, uh, hacks
00:41:42
on sort of things I've discovered on
00:41:43
DIY, um, which she probably doesn't
00:41:45
fully appreciate. Um, but the other
00:41:48
thing is Olivia and I love music
00:41:50
together. And so ever since she was
00:41:52
little, we've always try and exchange
00:41:53
song of the day. Uh, and um, and so
00:41:57
every day or every second day or so,
00:41:59
she'll send me a piece of music on
00:42:00
Spotify. I'll send her one as well. And
00:42:02
then we have a lot of music pumping
00:42:03
through our house at most times when
00:42:05
we're all together and um, honing around
00:42:07
and dancing around in the kitchen. It's
00:42:08
great fun. So um, what are you what are
00:42:10
you into? I've heard you like country
00:42:11
music. Any particular I actually love
00:42:13
all sorts of music, you know. I really
00:42:15
do, you know. Um, you know, you we grew
00:42:17
up in an era, didn't we, where we had,
00:42:19
you know, the tape, you might remember
00:42:20
the tape decks and you make your own mix
00:42:22
tapes and dubbing high speed dubbing and
00:42:24
all that stuff. It's funny. I mean,
00:42:25
people listening to this conversation
00:42:26
go, "What the hell are these two old
00:42:28
guys talking about?" But um, but no, so
00:42:30
I I love all sorts of music. I got into
00:42:32
country music really because of living
00:42:34
in the States for 8 years. And uh after
00:42:36
a while it's just everywhere and it's
00:42:38
sort of not the old country and western
00:42:40
that a lot of New Zealanders would know
00:42:42
but it is you know um Zack Brian and
00:42:44
Luke Combmes and and that kind of stuff
00:42:46
which is actually becoming more popular
00:42:48
here you know it's been awesome to see
00:42:50
my song of the year was last year would
00:42:52
be Think I'm in love with you which was
00:42:54
Chris Stapleton and do a leap you know
00:42:55
doing a combination together you know it
00:42:57
was pretty awesome um you look at Post
00:42:58
Malone and F1 trillion his new album
00:43:01
it's pretty great um Zack Bryan nineball
00:43:03
awesome song you know So yeah, that's
00:43:05
pretty pretty, you know, that's Olivia
00:43:08
and I do music stuff together. That's
00:43:09
why we love going to concerts and things
00:43:10
like that. You mentioned the American um
00:43:13
piece of the puzzle. Um yeah, so you
00:43:15
were you were away from New Zealand for
00:43:16
a long time like 17 18 years and then
00:43:17
you moved back to back to New Zealand.
00:43:19
Um what were your key observations after
00:43:21
moving back like in terms of in
00:43:23
particular tall poppy and anti- rich
00:43:25
sentiment? Yeah, look, I think I think
00:43:27
the thing I learned, you know, I left
00:43:29
here at 24, as I said, probably came
00:43:31
back just on 40 or 40. I was 40 and um
00:43:35
and essentially I always felt like a
00:43:37
Kiwi when I went out overseas, but I
00:43:39
learned different things from living in
00:43:40
those different countries. And I lived
00:43:42
in what we'd call the five eyes
00:43:44
countries. I lived in Australia, London,
00:43:45
England, and uh Canada, and America. And
00:43:48
you know, when you go to Australia, um
00:43:50
there's just a lot more directness. It's
00:43:52
not personal. It's just that, you know,
00:43:54
you and I can be best mates, but I'm
00:43:56
going to tell you, mate, that really
00:43:57
pissed me off and annoyed me when you
00:43:58
did this and that. It's not personal,
00:44:00
but just giving you some feedback. So,
00:44:02
Australia is much more direct, a lot
00:44:04
more confidence um in some ways in terms
00:44:06
of how you dealt with people. So, I
00:44:07
found my language hardened up a lot, you
00:44:10
know, as you sort of dealt with people
00:44:11
um in that business setting. When I went
00:44:13
to England, it was very much at univer
00:44:15
it was an Oxbridge culture. So you had
00:44:17
to be really intellectually have your
00:44:19
first principles and your logic really
00:44:21
straightforward decisions that you were
00:44:22
making and and how you engage with
00:44:24
people and were respected. Um you know
00:44:26
when I went to America it's all about
00:44:28
you know delivery execution focus and so
00:44:30
you know um you know and you had all the
00:44:32
people I to join my company you had to
00:44:34
be a Harvard Yale you know Ivy Lee kind
00:44:36
of brain uh to be able to do that. So
00:44:38
you know you so you kept your New
00:44:40
Zealandness but you did pick up bits and
00:44:42
pieces from the best bits of different
00:44:44
countries while also observing the bits
00:44:46
you didn't think were that great. But I
00:44:47
think my New Zealandness actually and my
00:44:49
Kiwi actually made me very successful
00:44:50
internationally because I was more
00:44:53
general. I was broader than most people.
00:44:55
Kiwis are good with you know we have
00:44:56
strong relational skills and um I think
00:44:59
that served me really well and made me I
00:45:01
was different from from um those
00:45:03
management people or or kids that were
00:45:06
coming through in a different system. Um
00:45:08
and so when you came back home again,
00:45:09
you know, it was challenging in some
00:45:11
ways, but Amanda and I again always um
00:45:13
thought about it as if we yes, we were
00:45:15
coming home, which we were so excited
00:45:16
about, but we also wanted to manage our
00:45:18
expectations that we couldn't just we
00:45:20
couldn't just slot into all the
00:45:21
friendships we had when we left 16 years
00:45:23
ago cuz we'd all everyone had changed
00:45:25
and move forward. Some of some of that
00:45:27
did happen naturally and some of it
00:45:28
didn't. But um so we just came back as
00:45:31
every time we moved countries we always
00:45:33
had a view that within 3 months we
00:45:34
should be pretty settled and we had a
00:45:36
bit of a process around that. wouldn't
00:45:37
surprise you given how organized I sort
00:45:39
of think about things and Amanda are the
00:45:41
same but um it was great coming home
00:45:43
particularly with the family pieces but
00:45:45
I do observe you know there are
00:45:46
differences you know I love the ambition
00:45:48
and aspiration of Australians and
00:45:49
Americans you know I think they they
00:45:51
celebrate success and you know I've
00:45:54
observed that here in New Zealand I've
00:45:56
probably been the brunt of that at times
00:45:57
I know John Key probably felt the same
00:45:59
way you know we're kids actually who
00:46:00
just came from regular backgrounds as
00:46:02
I've tried to talk about today um who
00:46:05
yep got a great education managed to do
00:46:07
well for ourselves and and you know that
00:46:10
success is sometimes you feel it's like
00:46:12
a a negative thing and it's like well
00:46:14
don't you want someone why can't someone
00:46:16
successful like me come into the
00:46:18
parliament I know my background is not a
00:46:20
standard career politician I've done a
00:46:22
bunch of other stuff that I think is has
00:46:24
skills that are transferable in the you
00:46:26
want parliament to be representative of
00:46:27
all New Zealanders from all walks of
00:46:29
life but just because I've been
00:46:31
successful and um you don't you know
00:46:33
that's not a reason why I can't be in
00:46:35
parliament either and I actually think
00:46:36
it's what New Zealand kind of needs.
00:46:37
Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you find that
00:46:39
frustrating? It's not I don't get
00:46:41
frustrated by the criticism. I mean, I
00:46:43
listen to the criticism. It's like
00:46:44
social media. I'm sort of informed, but
00:46:46
I'm not um consumed by it. And I'm also
00:46:49
of the view and I've had this view from
00:46:51
a very young age is that I don't take
00:46:53
offense from people I wouldn't take
00:46:54
advice from. Uh and it's pretty simple,
00:46:56
you know. So, and frankly, if you want
00:46:58
to critique and c from the sidelines,
00:47:00
feel free. But actually, you know,
00:47:02
otherwise, you know, show some guts and
00:47:04
get into the arena. You know, step into
00:47:05
the process if you want to. I don't have
00:47:07
to do this job. I choose to do this job.
00:47:09
I want to do this job cuz I genuinely am
00:47:11
committed to a mission of of improving
00:47:13
and realizing New Zealand's potential.
00:47:15
I've been all around the world. I've
00:47:16
seen the good, the bad of of each and
00:47:18
every country. I know we got an awesome
00:47:20
pot. So, I get connected to that. And
00:47:22
therefore, to be honest, the the
00:47:24
criticism doesn't really, you know,
00:47:26
worry me. I I I I have to listen to it
00:47:28
because there's often good points of
00:47:30
feedback in there of how I can be
00:47:31
better. Um but you have to watch some of
00:47:34
that stuff. Yeah. Yes. If I've got my
00:47:36
information that I read online correct,
00:47:38
your your pay cut from me in New Zealand
00:47:39
to parliament was like 90%.
00:47:42
4 million to I think you're on just
00:47:43
under half a million now. So it's is and
00:47:46
it seems like there's just sectors of
00:47:47
New Zealand that just have a real issue
00:47:49
with someone earning that sort of money.
00:47:51
Yeah. Look, I get it. And um you know uh
00:47:54
um I I don't I mean you don't make a
00:47:56
change like I've made um to and you know
00:47:59
people people would say you know if you
00:48:01
really were motivated by money you would
00:48:02
be you know in the peak earning period
00:48:04
of your life you wouldn't be doing
00:48:05
politics right so for me it never I've
00:48:08
not been a deeply material person yes
00:48:10
I've been paid uh very well um but you
00:48:13
know our family and I try and live with
00:48:15
the values that I was raised with in New
00:48:17
Zealand and try and impart that to my
00:48:18
kids and uh and you know Amanda and I
00:48:21
don't live what we'd call high. I think
00:48:23
um even John Key would tell you that he
00:48:25
thinks we that we don't live like that.
00:48:27
But um but but but but I just yeah I
00:48:30
mean I I get it and I understand why you
00:48:32
know that is but I I think um I feel
00:48:36
like I know what's going on in New
00:48:37
Zealand. I I've come from a background I
00:48:39
have family. I I see people each and
00:48:41
every day who are doing it tough. I
00:48:42
understand that reality. uh and just
00:48:44
because I may be, you know, uh in a
00:48:47
different place, you know, because of my
00:48:49
background or career, um doesn't it's
00:48:51
not doesn't mean I don't care or I don't
00:48:52
understand what's happening for people.
00:48:54
That's why I'm actually in politics is
00:48:55
because I think we can do so much better
00:48:57
than what we've been doing. At the point
00:49:00
we're recording this, I'm I'm guessing
00:49:01
you're about halfway through your
00:49:03
current term as Yeah, exactly. Pretty
00:49:05
much half time. Um yeah, report card.
00:49:08
What what what have you done really
00:49:09
well? What could you be doing better?
00:49:10
Yeah, look, I think I mean I'm one of
00:49:12
those people who's constructively
00:49:13
dissatisfied all the time. So, I always
00:49:15
think there's things I personally could
00:49:16
be doing better. I think, you know, we
00:49:18
could as a team could be doing better.
00:49:20
Um, I'm grossly impatient about the
00:49:22
results and outcomes. You know, that's
00:49:23
why I sort of, you know, I think if I
00:49:25
zoom back a bit, I think New Zealand
00:49:27
public, but I think when I talk to other
00:49:29
world leaders, publics all around the
00:49:30
world are just grumpy. They're
00:49:32
frustrated. Um, it's an age of
00:49:35
dislocation at the moment with
00:49:36
technology and disruption. uh and
00:49:39
they're over politicians and glib sort
00:49:40
of bumper stickers and and statements.
00:49:42
They kind of want you to deliver
00:49:43
outcomes and results for them. And I
00:49:46
think that's actually why my background
00:49:47
and coming in at this time in New
00:49:48
Zealand's you know political history is
00:49:50
actually really important you know
00:49:51
because that is my my story of turning
00:49:53
things around and sorting things out and
00:49:55
getting better results and outcomes. So
00:49:57
um I think you know what we've done well
00:49:59
is you know we've formed the first
00:50:00
three-party coalition government in New
00:50:02
Zealand. You know really difficult thing
00:50:03
to do but MMP is our political system,
00:50:06
our electoral system. um it's matured.
00:50:08
It's coming up almost 30 years since
00:50:10
we've had it now. Um it means that you
00:50:12
have to find ways to collaborate. You
00:50:14
may not wish to do so, but actually the
00:50:15
New Zealand people vote and they give us
00:50:17
an election result on election night and
00:50:19
then we're tasked with trying to make
00:50:20
that work. And um I think the way that
00:50:22
our coalition has come together with
00:50:24
very big and different personalities and
00:50:26
different parties with different
00:50:27
policies and different constituents. You
00:50:29
know, you see it in Western Europe. You
00:50:31
know, it's the same system that we have
00:50:32
here in New Zealand. I think we've done
00:50:33
a good job of managing that and keeping
00:50:35
the government focused on what it's got
00:50:37
to do, which is sort out this economy,
00:50:39
restore law, and order better public
00:50:40
services. So, you know, that's also got
00:50:42
to get performance out of the public
00:50:44
service to help us do that as well.
00:50:45
Yeah. Now, you're um you're a
00:50:48
relentlessly positive optimist. Um
00:50:51
journalists by nature are sort of
00:50:53
negative glass half empty people. I'd
00:50:54
say I've noticed a couple of times it's
00:50:56
it seems like you've been you you've got
00:50:57
snappy with the media. I don't I don't I
00:51:00
don't think I do. I might they might I
00:51:01
might have a furough brow from time to
00:51:03
time but um I don't no I actually the
00:51:06
media have got a job to do right I mean
00:51:08
they have a really important job to do
00:51:09
which is to hold us to account uh and
00:51:12
you know that's something I hugely
00:51:13
respect. I don't always agree with them
00:51:15
or their you know their you know um you
00:51:18
know their view but I also just don't
00:51:20
think there's any value in me
00:51:21
complaining about it either when I think
00:51:23
we've been treated unfairly or I think
00:51:25
there's a principle that hasn't been
00:51:26
held up. Um, and I'm kind of a principal
00:51:29
fairness kind of person at my heart, you
00:51:30
know. So, I sort of sometimes you can
00:51:32
react to things um, personally about the
00:51:34
media, but I I try and, you know, I try
00:51:36
and take all questions. I try and, you
00:51:38
know, patiently explain what what I
00:51:39
think's going on and give context for
00:51:41
stuff because you do need our media to
00:51:43
function well in order to get the
00:51:45
message out to people. And that can be a
00:51:47
real challenge. It can be a real
00:51:48
challenge. Um, but also there's other
00:51:50
ways to talk directly to people. I've
00:51:51
had the best conversations, for example,
00:51:53
on mental health on the rock, uh, with
00:51:55
the team there, cuz those guys really
00:51:57
get it. They really understand Bryce and
00:51:59
and and Rod and all the team, you know,
00:52:00
they they really have done some amazing
00:52:02
work on mental health. I've had high
00:52:04
quality conversations on the rock, able
00:52:06
to talk to 250,000 people about why, you
00:52:09
know, what we're going to do in mental
00:52:10
health. Um, you know, so there's there's
00:52:12
other ways to get messages out as well.
00:52:13
But yeah, the media can, you know, it's
00:52:15
one of the it's it's it's a you know,
00:52:18
it's something having been in politics
00:52:19
for four years, um, you know, when
00:52:21
you're standing in a scrum where, you
00:52:22
know, people just firing random
00:52:24
questions at you and sometimes there's a
00:52:26
bit of group think where they all get on
00:52:28
one issue and you're going, "Well,
00:52:29
actually, I'm not sure that's what New
00:52:30
Zealanders are really focused on right
00:52:32
now." Um, they're really struggling
00:52:33
getting through from paycheck to
00:52:34
paycheck, trying to get through their,
00:52:36
you know, grocery shop each week. Why
00:52:38
don't we talk about what we're going to
00:52:39
do to fix that problem? um rather than a
00:52:41
process story or a gotcha story around
00:52:44
the inner workings of parliament or
00:52:46
political piece. You know, I just I
00:52:48
think I think they do a really important
00:52:49
job and but it's also I think it's
00:52:51
really important to it's why I get out
00:52:53
of Wellington pretty quickly each week
00:52:54
is because I you know yesterday I was in
00:52:56
Gisbon and Hawks Bay, right? You know,
00:52:58
when you're talking to people there
00:52:59
sometimes the conversation we've been
00:53:01
having in Wellington isn't that relevant
00:53:02
to what's going on in their life. you
00:53:04
know, what we were trying to do
00:53:05
yesterday was get 149 houses built um
00:53:07
for for for solo moms that need homes
00:53:10
and uh good communities around them and
00:53:12
that was pretty exciting. That's what
00:53:13
you really enjoy about the job. Um so
00:53:16
yeah, so yeah, the media is what it is
00:53:18
and they've got a job to do and my my
00:53:20
thing is um I I think every politician
00:53:22
if you spoke to you former prominence as
00:53:24
well, they would say, you know, they
00:53:26
don't always agree with it, but um me
00:53:28
winging about a compliment doesn't come.
00:53:30
Suck it up, buttercup. you you kind of
00:53:31
have to because actually it's like I say
00:53:33
to my team they can often get bit out of
00:53:35
shape about how they think we're being
00:53:36
treated or not treated fairly or
00:53:38
whatever but it's like guys when you're
00:53:40
playing game of rugby if you've got a
00:53:41
bad riff you've got to find a way to win
00:53:43
you know and win ugly win nice but you
00:53:45
got to find a way to win and so don't
00:53:47
complain about the ref you know oh what
00:53:49
about um speaking of media there was
00:53:50
that interview with um the Hosk a couple
00:53:52
of months ago one of your one of your
00:53:55
one of your team u resigned um Mike
00:53:58
asked if you would have sacked him
00:53:59
otherwise And yeah, obiscated. Yeah.
00:54:02
What what were you doing? Were you just
00:54:04
like protecting him? You made a promise
00:54:05
to him that you wouldn't throw him under
00:54:06
the bus? No, I just I mean like that's a
00:54:08
that's a great Thank you for raising.
00:54:10
It's a great question to ask because you
00:54:12
know there's a really difficult
00:54:13
situation. We're a really hardworking
00:54:15
individual has done a great job as a
00:54:17
minister. Really passionate about what
00:54:19
he's doing. Was doing a really great job
00:54:22
and yep he made a mistake you know and
00:54:24
yep he fronted it. And you know let's be
00:54:26
clear the mistakes when you do them in
00:54:28
politics they're all public. everybody
00:54:29
sees it. Uh it's quite a high bar. Uh
00:54:32
and he came to a decision and came to me
00:54:34
and said, "Look, I think I need to
00:54:36
resign over this issue." And I said, "I
00:54:38
think you do, too. And I think that's
00:54:39
appropriate that you do so." So, I just
00:54:42
didn't want to put the boot in, frankly,
00:54:44
because again, it's part of, you know,
00:54:46
ministers are human, right? We're all
00:54:47
human. Prime Minister are human. You all
00:54:49
have feelings. You all have families.
00:54:51
You have friends. Um yep, you you you
00:54:53
know, you [ __ ] something up. You made a
00:54:55
mistake. uh and you know do you really
00:54:58
need to sort of pile in is kind of how I
00:55:00
felt about it and rightly or wrongly
00:55:02
that's why you know when he kept asking
00:55:04
me the question would you ever have
00:55:05
fired him would you have fired him would
00:55:06
you have fired him well I just didn't
00:55:08
feel I I I probably answered it from a
00:55:10
human point of view of like is this
00:55:12
really what this individual needs right
00:55:13
now is to say the promised would have
00:55:15
fired you anyway you know um and so yep
00:55:18
I didn't probably get that one right I
00:55:20
should have answered more definitively
00:55:21
about it but uh and but it was actually
00:55:24
you get caught between in a human moment
00:55:26
of trying to care for the individual who
00:55:28
you actually have worked with and know
00:55:29
well and um yes has a different
00:55:31
personality but actually just generally
00:55:33
made a mistake right and it's taken
00:55:34
responsibility for it and do they really
00:55:36
need me piling on but equally the media
00:55:39
you know quite rightly want to know well
00:55:40
would you have fired him or not when
00:55:42
when Mike asked the same question in a
00:55:44
different way the fourth time why why
00:55:46
didn't you just throw your mate under
00:55:47
the bus well as as I said because that's
00:55:49
the dissonance that you have inside
00:55:50
right yeah you're the big dog yeah I am
00:55:52
yeah I am and I and and the answer is
00:55:53
yes I I would have because it was um it
00:55:56
was a was a was an issue that I felt was
00:55:58
inappropriate and it would have led to
00:56:00
that. But the point was um I'm just
00:56:02
trying to explain to you how in the
00:56:03
moment in that question and the morning
00:56:06
was very generous if you stay maybe
00:56:08
loyalty to a fault some might say well I
00:56:10
just think I got it wrong you know I
00:56:11
could have been more definitive and and
00:56:12
and I could have answered that much
00:56:14
better. Uh but the point was uh I was
00:56:17
trying to you there's a human moment to
00:56:19
these things and and I get it and
00:56:20
politics is pretty brutal sometimes and
00:56:22
um but I still think people are human.
00:56:24
Yeah. Um just back up to something you
00:56:26
said before. You mentioned the rock and
00:56:28
you gave them some flowers for their
00:56:29
work around mental health which is welld
00:56:30
deserved. How's how's your mental health
00:56:32
been? Good. Good. I think you know
00:56:34
because I sort of came as I said to you
00:56:36
earlier with a mom who was always asking
00:56:37
you how are you feeling? You know what
00:56:39
what's going on for you and someone I
00:56:41
could always process and talk with as
00:56:43
well and dad's the same. Um, uh, I I
00:56:46
think genuinely I've leared to sort of I
00:56:48
genuinely was I was really lucky I had
00:56:50
some of that equipment on board before
00:56:51
it was a popular thing, not a popular
00:56:53
thing before we talked about it as
00:56:54
openly as we do now. When you and I came
00:56:57
through, like it was a lot of stigma
00:56:58
around mental health. And I, you know,
00:57:00
John Kerwin's a good friend. I often
00:57:02
just say to him, mate, you know, the
00:57:03
work that you've done to take that
00:57:04
stigma away, now our question and
00:57:07
conversation is about access for
00:57:08
services and support for mental health.
00:57:10
So I've also read a lot about um you
00:57:14
know mental health and and and you have
00:57:16
to know yourself really well right and I
00:57:18
think people go through life often not
00:57:19
knowing themselves at a at a really deep
00:57:22
level as to when they are under pressure
00:57:25
and um when those cracks are appearing
00:57:28
and you know in a job like this you know
00:57:29
with a huge pressure and huge um uh
00:57:32
stress uh applied cracks appear right
00:57:35
and and you know you know everyone's
00:57:37
personality is under pressure you know
00:57:39
the cracks uh appear and um for me I've
00:57:42
just learned to process as I go. So for
00:57:44
me, you know, as I said, it is little
00:57:46
things like I have to stay really
00:57:48
balanced in those four different
00:57:49
energies, you know, um you know, when I
00:57:51
hang out with my friends on a weekend,
00:57:53
you know, we don't talk politics, you
00:57:54
know, we just we're just doing life
00:57:56
together with all its ups and downs. You
00:57:57
know, I've got a good group of friends,
00:57:59
my brothers, my family um as well, uh
00:58:02
that we just sort of do life with. So I
00:58:03
feel like I'm No, I feel like I um can
00:58:07
can process it quite well. Um, I don't
00:58:10
mean that to sound arrogantly at all cuz
00:58:11
I know it's it's difficult for people,
00:58:13
but there is routines that you have like
00:58:15
I know I need to socialize with friends
00:58:18
and family because that fills me up, you
00:58:20
know, um there's a lot of asks of you
00:58:22
where you're giving out a lot, but how
00:58:24
do you fill up the bottle uh as Paul
00:58:26
Keing would say and actually sort of um
00:58:28
fill it up with just life, you know, and
00:58:31
and positivity and stuff and so hanging
00:58:33
out with the kids um cranking up the
00:58:36
music and doing silly dances in the
00:58:38
kitchen and you know, all that stuff is
00:58:40
sounds frivolous, but it actually is
00:58:41
part of managing energy, you know. When
00:58:44
was the last time you cried?
00:58:46
Uh, are you an emotional guy or Yeah.
00:58:50
Yeah. Um, yeah, I was I get moved by
00:58:53
quite a lot of things actually. You
00:58:54
know, I found myself, you know, feeling
00:58:56
quite emotional yesterday. I was with um
00:58:58
three young people who'd come from some
00:59:00
pretty difficult circumstances and had
00:59:03
actually been come through a trades
00:59:05
program that had got them into a Robin
00:59:06
is that this 18-year-old kid was telling
00:59:08
me his story. I was thinking, "Man, I'm
00:59:10
so proud of you for how you've turned
00:59:12
your life around and and you know, these
00:59:14
guys telling me their quite horrific
00:59:15
stories. I found the abuse in care
00:59:18
really hard, you know, really difficult.
00:59:19
I read every single page of those
00:59:21
reports. I read the um case studies,
00:59:24
really harrowing accounts, you know, I
00:59:26
was crying most of the time I was
00:59:27
reading that um as you would expect. So,
00:59:29
no, I I think it's important you don't
00:59:31
hide your emotions and I don't it's not
00:59:33
something you can bottle up, you know. I
00:59:34
think you just have to be have to you
00:59:36
know you you should you should feel
00:59:38
emotions you know I think it's important
00:59:40
to feel you know they're not just
00:59:41
thinkers they're feelers as well.
00:59:43
Yeah that's great. Yeah I mean we know
00:59:46
that vulnerability is now like a
00:59:47
superpower and it's not a weakness and
00:59:49
stuff but is it possible to have
00:59:50
vulnerability and be a strong leader at
00:59:52
the same time? Yeah I think it is. I
00:59:54
think um you know you'll have people
00:59:57
when you are you know as a politician I
00:59:58
think there's people feel if you are
01:00:00
vulnerable it's going to be used against
01:00:01
you and you know in our in our podcast
01:00:04
today I probably talked about things and
01:00:05
whether you know people decide to
01:00:06
politicize that or not but actually it's
01:00:08
about being human and we're actually all
01:00:10
humans as well and um you know whether
01:00:12
it's Chris Hipkins or just or John Key
01:00:14
or Bill English or myself you know we're
01:00:16
all people with you know feelings as
01:00:18
well so I think um yeah I think being
01:00:20
vulnerable is really important. Yeah.
01:00:22
Hey this has been great today. Just
01:00:24
before we go, um, my show is sponsored
01:00:26
by the Generate Kiwi Saver scheme. So,
01:00:28
they they've given me $500 to give to
01:00:31
you to give to charity. Oh, awesome.
01:00:33
What What your There's so many of that
01:00:36
you could support. Yeah. Um um I think
01:00:39
um yeah there's I'd love to think about
01:00:42
where I would like to direct that
01:00:43
because I know there's a number of
01:00:44
places that I would like to think about
01:00:45
that a little bit more purposefully. But
01:00:47
um there's some incredible charities
01:00:49
doing some amazing work and in fact I'm
01:00:50
trying as a government to make sure that
01:00:52
we work with many of the community
01:00:53
organizations and get the money out them
01:00:55
to actually get to the people that
01:00:57
desperately need it. But um if you if
01:00:59
you don't mind, I would really like to
01:01:00
think about how I can make that
01:01:01
difference because there's there's a
01:01:01
number that come to mind, but I know
01:01:03
there are some that $500 would make a
01:01:04
big difference to. Okay, couple of quick
01:01:06
questions from Generate. What's the best
01:01:07
thing about being a Kiwi? Um, I think um
01:01:11
the best thing about being a Kiwi is
01:01:13
that we can, you know, we've got
01:01:14
ambition and aspiration we can take on
01:01:15
the world and we're world beaters. We're
01:01:17
the best in the world. And some Kiwi
01:01:19
saver advice you'd give anyone? Um,
01:01:21
well, again, from my family point of
01:01:23
view, we've been quite hot on on
01:01:24
financial teaching our kids how to
01:01:26
manage money well. And it started when
01:01:27
they were five. They had four slotted
01:01:28
money boxes. Uh, that'd be an allowance,
01:01:31
$5 allowance. We do an assessment on a
01:01:33
Sunday night as to how well you had or
01:01:34
hadn't done. There might be a $350 week
01:01:36
because you didn't need to be the
01:01:37
dishwasher or the rubbish spin and uh as
01:01:39
a result you tax them. Yeah. Yeah. And
01:01:40
then they get their money in coins as
01:01:42
little chaps and then they have to work
01:01:43
out a quarter has to go to donate and
01:01:45
that goes to their sponsored kids on
01:01:46
World Vision. And then they have to make
01:01:48
a decision on save or invest or spend.
01:01:50
And if it goes into save invest, we
01:01:51
doubled it up. And that's how we taught
01:01:53
them when they were 5 to 10 as to how to
01:01:54
start to manage money. But I just think
01:01:56
um you know uh get get on top of your
01:01:59
budgets. It's why I've actually been
01:02:00
really hot on this because I want
01:02:01
financial literacy taught to our kids
01:02:03
because I don't think we do that very
01:02:05
well and people um with low incomes can
01:02:07
manage exceptionally well and people
01:02:08
with high incomes often spend their
01:02:10
money and are completely in debt. So,
01:02:12
it's about teaching get on a budget,
01:02:14
understand um what you're saving uh um
01:02:16
get your savings identified and then
01:02:18
just do it regularly and consistently
01:02:19
even when you don't have that much
01:02:20
money. I love that. Um and final one um
01:02:23
say it's your funeral and your family's
01:02:25
around. What three words would you like
01:02:27
people to describe you with? Um uh um uh
01:02:32
you know love of people care care of
01:02:34
care of family uh and people um uh uh
01:02:38
relaxed open um um and did his best you
01:02:41
know and I think that's sort of the
01:02:42
sentiments I often I often do think
01:02:44
about my later stage in life you know I
01:02:46
want to be able to put my arm around my
01:02:48
adult son and say I love you and know
01:02:50
that we're in good relationship you know
01:02:51
that's the stuff that I think will
01:02:52
matter I don't think being prime
01:02:53
minister of New Zealand or a successful
01:02:55
business guy or CEO will be actually
01:02:57
what they'll talk about at my funeral
01:02:58
the impact that I've had on people. Um,
01:02:59
and that's what I'd hope that would be
01:03:01
talked about. Yeah. You good at telling
01:03:02
them you love them? Absolutely. Every
01:03:04
day. Every day. You know, I was raised
01:03:06
that way with my own parents telling me
01:03:08
that they loved us and me do the same.
01:03:10
And I think sometimes you get to
01:03:11
funerals and it's all these things that
01:03:13
have been said about these people in
01:03:14
funerals that you say, "Man, I wish I'd
01:03:15
said that to people before they died."
01:03:17
And um, if you just knew how proud your
01:03:19
dad was of you or your mom was of you or
01:03:21
you know what people really thought
01:03:22
about you. And I often something
01:03:24
actually we talk my mom and dad I've
01:03:26
talked about a lot is you know growing
01:03:27
up is you should tell people how you
01:03:29
feel about them now while they're
01:03:30
living. Don't wait for a eulogy at a
01:03:32
funeral. It's it's too late at that
01:03:34
point in time. So um yeah live life now
01:03:36
and and tell people really how you think
01:03:38
about them and how you love them. Great
01:03:39
place to end it. Christopher Laxon,
01:03:40
Prime Minister number 42. Number 42.
01:03:43
Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.
01:03:44
Great mate. Thanks for having me on.
01:03:46
Really appreciate it.
