RETURN TO CHANNEL

Search Captions & Ask AI

Christopher Luxon on Lifelong Sobriety & Family History, Sir John Key Friendship

May 25, 2025 / 01:04:03

Video

00:00:00

I'd always thought I'd cod to politics

00:00:01

at some point in my life. I was always

00:00:03

encouraged to do like entrepreneurial

00:00:04

things. So, I had a lot of things on the

00:00:06

go as a kid, my teenage life. I had a

00:00:07

professional window cleaning round. I

00:00:09

had um a fence painting, roof painting,

00:00:11

and deck painting business here. And I

00:00:12

obviously worked at McDonald's, which I

00:00:14

loved in in Christ Church when I came to

00:00:15

town. It was a big deal. And then I went

00:00:17

to university, did a three-year VCOM. I

00:00:19

got into a one-year masters of commerce,

00:00:21

business administration. Halfway through

00:00:22

that year, I got recruited by this

00:00:24

company called Uni Lever, which one of

00:00:25

the biggest companies in the world.

00:00:26

Yeah. We met when we were 15. And we

00:00:28

really became really good friends with a

00:00:29

big group of kids and you know I

00:00:31

actually think that's important for kids

00:00:33

to have quite wide circles of friends. I

00:00:35

like my my kids were pretty much the

00:00:36

same and we started dating at 19,

00:00:39

married at 23 and then do the rest of

00:00:40

the life together and honestly best

00:00:42

decision I'll ever make. You know

00:00:44

greatest privilege of my life being

00:00:45

married to Amanda. Did you save

00:00:46

yourselves for marriage? Well, I mean,

00:00:49

we um

00:00:52

[Music]

00:00:54

Kiwis's love

00:00:56

first. Like Finn, we're making

00:01:00

[Music]

00:01:00

[Applause]

00:01:01

[Music]

00:01:03

waves. Generate. Switch online today.

00:01:13

Christopher Laxon, Prime Minister,

00:01:15

welcome to my podcast. Oh mate, I'm

00:01:17

stoked to be on your podcast. Uh you're

00:01:19

someone, as I said before, I've followed

00:01:20

for a long time and um I just love the

00:01:22

format of what you're doing here. It's

00:01:23

absolutely brilliant. So um no, looking

00:01:25

forward to our chat and conversation.

00:01:27

It's uh it's it's wonderful. I'm I'm

00:01:29

nervous. I'm really nervous. Oh, please

00:01:30

don't be nervous. No, honestly, let's

00:01:32

just have a chat as mates at a pub.

00:01:33

It'll be great. So um you just if you're

00:01:35

good, I'll be good. And another thing

00:01:36

I'm nervous about, my little dog is uh

00:01:38

in the studio with us. And when the um

00:01:40

leader of the opposition was in here, he

00:01:41

he defecated not the dog defecated on

00:01:44

the floor. So, oh, no, no. Look, Kanye's

00:01:47

fine. I've told him it's the prime

00:01:49

minister, so we need some decor. I think

00:01:51

I saying to you, like, um, Anthony

00:01:52

Albanesey's dog, Toto, goes everywhere

00:01:54

with him. Uh, and, uh, so I've got to

00:01:57

know Toto pretty well over the last year

00:01:59

and a bit. So, um, that's awesome to

00:02:00

have you here. Hey, um, I messaged um,

00:02:03

your friend John Key, Sir John Key, to

00:02:05

say that you were coming in and, uh, did

00:02:07

he have any ice breakers? He he replied

00:02:10

saying,

00:02:12

"Ask anywhere. ask if he feels his

00:02:14

career in Boy Scouts was more glorious

00:02:16

and successful than mine and if so why.

00:02:20

No, we were I mean John and Broner are

00:02:22

really good friends of Amanda of mine

00:02:23

and it's actually a really special

00:02:25

relationship actually because there's

00:02:26

not many people who I'm the 42nd prime

00:02:29

minister of New Zealand and there's not

00:02:30

that many of us and it is actually quite

00:02:32

special to have one of your best mates

00:02:34

who's been been it as well and so um but

00:02:36

we were mates before we I I went into

00:02:38

politics and uh so the four of us spend

00:02:40

quite a bit of time together but uh I

00:02:43

was Brona was one night talking about

00:02:44

her girl guides awards and Amanda was a

00:02:47

girl and I was something called boys

00:02:48

brigade which was basically a

00:02:50

Presbyterian version of Scouts and Keith

00:02:52

didn't he wasn't a member of scouts or

00:02:54

anything and so we just sort of were

00:02:55

giving him grief about the lack of

00:02:57

badges for cooking and camping and then

00:02:59

Brona brought out her badges and then

00:03:00

Amanda brought out her badges and I

00:03:02

brought out my badges and just to wind

00:03:04

them up. So um so we we we have a great

00:03:06

relationship. They um we typically uh

00:03:08

one of us sort of thinks about the

00:03:10

dinner and one of us thinks about the

00:03:11

movie to watch and we try and catch up

00:03:13

on Saturday nights or go for a walk

00:03:15

together on Sunday mornings. So when did

00:03:16

you become friends? Was it during your

00:03:18

tenure at a New Zealand or I I'd come

00:03:20

back from New York about 2011 uh and

00:03:23

obviously coming back home to New

00:03:24

Zealand after 16 years away where I'd

00:03:26

left as a 24 year old and and came back

00:03:29

home and uh I got to meet John actually

00:03:32

probably in the first couple of months

00:03:33

when I'd come back from New York and I

00:03:35

actually hadn't taken over from Rob

00:03:36

Feifer's Air New Zealand the CEO then I

00:03:39

was in a process and uh we first met

00:03:41

then and then I got to know him

00:03:42

obviously as CEO and um we both sort of

00:03:44

have pretty similar stories come from

00:03:46

Christ church. Um, you know, um, been

00:03:49

with our partners for a long time and

00:03:50

met as at at high school. Yeah. Very

00:03:53

similar story overseas, back again. And

00:03:55

we got similar sense of humor, similar

00:03:57

temperaments in terms of pretty even and

00:03:59

consistent. And um, we just he and I

00:04:01

used to talk sort of typically very late

00:04:03

at night. both worked long hours and um

00:04:05

we would sort of catch up and shoot the

00:04:07

breeze and I just became very good

00:04:09

friends um before and then I I'd always

00:04:11

thought I'd code a politics at some

00:04:13

point in my life but I always wanted to

00:04:15

go off and do something else before I

00:04:16

came to it and so um yeah so yeah it

00:04:20

sort of worked out in the way that it

00:04:21

did but it's lovely to have that

00:04:22

relationship and we don't actually talk

00:04:24

or we're mates first and you know

00:04:26

politics is second so um you things

00:04:28

we'll be we'll disagree on and um have

00:04:30

different you know views on I'm sure but

00:04:33

We don't actually discuss that stuff,

00:04:34

you know, we sort of we we have our own

00:04:36

friendship and then our wives have got

00:04:38

to become really good friends as well

00:04:39

and and the four of you when you get a

00:04:41

couple's relationship that actually

00:04:42

works with all four actually, you know,

00:04:44

Brian and I, you know, it's it's great.

00:04:45

It's great. So, we can holiday together

00:04:47

and it's all great. So, uh he he also

00:04:49

said and does he have any proof that in

00:04:52

the history of owning of ownership he

00:04:54

has ever caught a fish on a Sea Legs

00:04:55

boat? Ceilings is one of those

00:04:57

amphibious ones, aren't you? Drive down

00:04:59

to the Yeah. I um I I Yeah. Well, and at

00:05:03

New Zealand, I decided I'd buy a house

00:05:04

on W Hickeyi is a bit of a you know,

00:05:06

holiday place. And um but it was it was

00:05:08

at a stage in life where actually my

00:05:10

kids hadn't got their driver's licenses.

00:05:12

So you still, you know, they're busy on

00:05:13

the weekends and they still needing

00:05:14

transportation and you're already a

00:05:16

glorified taxi driver. And so I never

00:05:18

really got to use it much. And then um I

00:05:20

got then I took on this new job and you

00:05:22

work weekends and 24/7 basically. So, I

00:05:24

don't get there very often. But, I've

00:05:25

got a Sea Legs boat, like a um like a

00:05:27

20ft Sea Legs boat. And uh Amanda and I

00:05:30

go out and fish together, so that's what

00:05:31

we like doing. It's just our time to

00:05:32

chitchat and talk stuff through and you

00:05:34

know, um and we don't use live bait. We

00:05:36

just have these big orange eyes. It's

00:05:38

pretty simple fishing. But, no, we Yeah,

00:05:40

there there's good snapper, so we catch

00:05:41

we get one or two snapper and that's all

00:05:43

we need. But no, no, I think he's wrong

00:05:45

about that cuz he's just like he's just

00:05:47

full of it actually. But the thing that

00:05:48

he does is you go over to his house for,

00:05:50

you know, dinner and stuff and, you

00:05:52

know, he pulls out very expensive French

00:05:54

wines. I don't drink alcohol, right?

00:05:56

Never have in my whole life. And um for

00:05:58

different reasons, but uh as a result,

00:06:00

he'll bring out different versions of

00:06:02

Pepsi and say, "This is a great class of

00:06:03

Pepsi from 2015." And no, so we have

00:06:06

different tastes in that regard, but um

00:06:08

but no, no, I do catch fish. I think

00:06:10

that's wrong of him to say that. Yeah,

00:06:11

you're um yeah, you're a Pepsi guy, eh?

00:06:13

Pepsi Max. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I am. Just

00:06:15

because um is that your only advice? No.

00:06:16

No. Well, there's there's probably a lot

00:06:18

of them, but um Pepsi, I just sort of I

00:06:21

don't actually I yeah, I don't actually

00:06:23

demand Pepsi or anything. It's it's got

00:06:25

it's a bit of a problem when you're

00:06:26

prime minister cuz people say, "What do

00:06:27

you want?" You say, "Oh, do you have

00:06:28

Pepsi Max or something?" And then all of

00:06:30

a sudden you think you're whispering and

00:06:31

you end up looks like you're shouting.

00:06:33

And so people then say, "Oh, he's only

00:06:34

he only ever must have, you know, green

00:06:36

M&M's and Pepsi Max and all these riders

00:06:39

and stuff." And it's not the case at

00:06:40

all. But no, I'm I lived in Canada for a

00:06:42

bit and that was a Pepsi market. So I

00:06:43

sort of got into Pepsi Max. cuz I'm I'm

00:06:45

Coke specific. Back back in the day when

00:06:48

when KFC was a PepsiCo uh outfit, I I'd

00:06:51

um I'd get my KFC then go to the dairy

00:06:53

around the corner and get a Coke. Like

00:06:54

I'm that Oh, you're that particular. If

00:06:56

I go to a cafe and So you could taste

00:06:57

the difference between Coke and a Pepsi.

00:06:59

Could you? Yeah. Yeah, I think I can

00:07:00

too. Yeah. So you Yeah. So you're a

00:07:02

Pepsi guy. No coffee. Yeah. No alcohol.

00:07:06

No. And no alcohol. And you've never

00:07:07

touched a drop of alcohol. Yeah. Know

00:07:09

it's really weird. People will often say

00:07:10

to me, you know, oh, is that a religious

00:07:12

thing or something like that's got

00:07:13

nothing to do with that? I um It's your

00:07:15

granddad, right? Yeah. Yeah. My granddad

00:07:18

uh great man, but you know, um flawed

00:07:20

like all of us. And um you know, he had

00:07:22

a problem with alcohol really. He was um

00:07:24

a groundsman at Hegley Hegley Oval in um

00:07:27

Christ Church. Um you know, the

00:07:28

basically mowed the lawns and did that

00:07:30

stuff. My father's the oldest of five

00:07:32

boys. Incredible guy really. Um love my

00:07:34

dad because he changed the course of

00:07:35

parenting in our family really. But I

00:07:37

just remember as a young chap spending

00:07:39

time with my granddad and um you know in

00:07:41

the August school holidays and just

00:07:42

seeing him out of control and I

00:07:43

obviously decided as a seven or an

00:07:45

8-year-old 8 8 nyear-old that that was

00:07:47

sort of something that you was that half

00:07:49

G that made him go a bit funny and um

00:07:51

and for some reason I decided then and

00:07:53

there that that wasn't something I was

00:07:54

doing and I've never never done it. Now,

00:07:56

I went to quite traditional boy schools.

00:07:58

I got a lot of mates, but I was always

00:07:59

the sober driver and I was always

00:08:01

invited and everyone just arranged

00:08:02

alternatives for me. And um but so no,

00:08:05

I've never drunk alcohol at all. And um

00:08:07

but it's just genuinely I can't explain

00:08:08

it when my mom and dad, you know, um and

00:08:11

my brothers, you know, they do, but I

00:08:12

just never have. So um so yeah, so it's

00:08:15

an odd, you know, it's an interesting

00:08:17

one when you sort of go back and explore

00:08:18

where did that come from or why did you

00:08:20

make that decision consciously or or or

00:08:22

unconsciously? And for me it was clearly

00:08:24

um you know seeing him out of control at

00:08:26

times and just deciding that's not

00:08:28

something that I want to do. It's a it's

00:08:30

a clear parallel with um Trump and

00:08:32

yourself because he he's never touched a

00:08:33

drop either and his brother um died of

00:08:36

alcoholism. So it's the same sort of

00:08:37

thing. So he decided never to touch it.

00:08:39

But you you and I are similar age that

00:08:41

must have been um I feel like there's a

00:08:42

greater understanding and awareness and

00:08:44

appreciation of sobriety now and the

00:08:46

harm that alcohol causes. But um back in

00:08:48

the back in the ' 90s like being at

00:08:50

varsity there must have been a fair bit

00:08:51

of peer pressure. Yeah, I was quite

00:08:52

lucky. I'm I'm a big extrovert, so I

00:08:54

always had a lot of friends and you

00:08:56

know, and people just understood that's

00:08:57

just how I was. And so, you know, they

00:08:59

just arranged orange juice or uh or soft

00:09:01

drinks for me when uh when I go I go all

00:09:03

the parties, but there's just a point

00:09:05

when everyone got completely incoherent

00:09:07

and I remember everything obviously and

00:09:09

uh and there's a point when you go,

00:09:11

okay, I think we uh it might be time to

00:09:12

head home now about midnight. So, um uh

00:09:14

but no, all my friends were really

00:09:16

decent with it. But yeah, you're right.

00:09:18

I mean at that era when we came through

00:09:20

it was there was a lot more peer

00:09:21

pressure a um and it's interesting

00:09:23

because a lot of my friends now in their

00:09:25

late 40s you know early 50s have decided

00:09:27

for different reasons to actually say

00:09:29

hey listen this is something I'm going

00:09:30

to this isn't good for me and um and

00:09:32

it's not that it's not you know not

00:09:33

can't be managed it's just that they've

00:09:35

either decided they're not their best

00:09:36

selves actually when they when they're

00:09:38

impaired like that and so it's

00:09:39

interesting I've had a number of friends

00:09:40

come come actually in their late 40s and

00:09:42

50s come to the same decision that I

00:09:44

came to probably a bit younger but

00:09:47

how did you get how Did you make that

00:09:48

decision yourself or where are you at?

00:09:50

Well, I I still drink, but I'm I'm very

00:09:52

um mindful of um my intake these days.

00:09:54

Um but yeah, similar sort of thing like

00:09:56

all the all my uncles I'm from a very

00:09:58

big Christian family. All my uncles my

00:10:00

granddad had a bar downstairs in his

00:10:01

basement and would go down there and

00:10:02

congregate from a young age. Dad would

00:10:04

let me drink the froth on the beer. I I

00:10:06

understand that was not a a good deal.

00:10:08

Um but we were just always surrounded by

00:10:10

it. But rather than put me off, I I sort

00:10:12

of I I to me I suppose it's what it

00:10:14

meant to be a man. Yeah. To drink

00:10:16

alcohol, which is um incorrect. And you

00:10:17

you

00:10:19

I was quite lucky cuz I think um what

00:10:21

happened for me was that I'd obviously

00:10:23

had that experience where I' i'd spend

00:10:25

my school holidays often with my

00:10:26

grandparents and at that time my family

00:10:28

was living in Oakland. We're born in

00:10:29

Christ Church, lived there for my first

00:10:31

seven years, moved up to how in

00:10:33

Oakuckland um was here for about 9 or 10

00:10:35

years and moved back to Christ Church.

00:10:36

So we were up here and I'd go down for

00:10:38

August school holidays and spend time

00:10:39

with nan and granddad and uh on both

00:10:41

sides of my family. But my dad was

00:10:43

really a real he's he's really my hero

00:10:45

because he sort of really um you know we

00:10:48

came from a background where um you know

00:10:51

there's just a lot of interaction with

00:10:53

the criminal justice system when you go

00:10:54

back through look at our family history

00:10:56

uh and yeah well I mean I studied family

00:10:59

I I really got into my family history

00:11:01

and a bit of genealogy you know probably

00:11:03

10 15 years ago and actually probably

00:11:06

for some time and uh you go back through

00:11:08

the newspapers of yesterday year and

00:11:09

there's an awful lot of Luxons making

00:11:11

appearances at courts and jail time and

00:11:12

stuff like that and being general

00:11:13

nuisances. But my dad was really quite a

00:11:16

good guy because he sort of changed the

00:11:18

course of parenting in my family, you

00:11:20

know, like and being being a good father

00:11:22

and stuff and being really intentional

00:11:24

and very purposeful about that. And I

00:11:26

really admired that because he had come

00:11:27

from pretty challenging circumstances

00:11:29

and obviously determined he wanted to do

00:11:31

it differently and um you set a great

00:11:33

example to me and my two brothers as

00:11:34

well cuz you know I'm the oldest of

00:11:36

three boys. So, you know, he mom and dad

00:11:38

actually I remember when we were growing

00:11:40

up, you know, really alcohol wasn't

00:11:41

really prevalent when we were young

00:11:42

chaps and then um but you know, they

00:11:44

obviously, you know, um love their wines

00:11:46

as did my brothers as well. Well, let's

00:11:48

let's talk about the early years. So, so

00:11:50

I've got a photo of you and this is

00:11:51

something you and I had in common. I had

00:11:52

a cruiser as well. Um

00:11:55

I'm actually on trade I'm on trade me

00:11:57

trying to buy one of those things at the

00:11:58

moment actually just for for sentimental

00:12:00

reasons actually. I don't know whether

00:12:01

you find that as well as you get older

00:12:03

you sort of get bit sentimental about

00:12:04

that stuff. My brother had the HMX 500,

00:12:07

which was the yellow BMX, which was

00:12:08

pretty cool. And this this bike's quite

00:12:11

interesting because it actually was

00:12:13

again my dad because he said to me,

00:12:14

"Chris, look, um, I've been saving up

00:12:16

for a bike. I was about 10 when I got my

00:12:18

my first two-wheeler." And, um, he said,

00:12:21

"Uh, yeah, I'll tell you what. You know,

00:12:22

what sort of bike do you think you'd

00:12:23

like?" And I said, "You know, probably a

00:12:25

Rally 20 or a Heeling Cruiser with the

00:12:26

3-speed with the gear shift on the

00:12:28

handlebar." And he said, "Okay, I'll

00:12:30

tell you what. you're going to go around

00:12:31

and just call up uh in those days we had

00:12:34

classified ads for people listening they

00:12:35

wouldn't know what the hell we're

00:12:36

talking about but um the newspaper would

00:12:38

come with classified ads and you'd look

00:12:39

up and every Saturday morning you get

00:12:40

the big paper and you'd go through and

00:12:42

find the healing cruiser and so I had to

00:12:44

call for three weekends in a row I could

00:12:46

just call people who had healing

00:12:47

cruisers for sale and and dad it was a

00:12:49

sales guy and he taught me to say so sir

00:12:51

um you know I see you've got a healing

00:12:52

cruiser for sale uh you know uh what

00:12:54

color is it? Oh it's green or it's blue.

00:12:55

Okay, are there any is the paint in good

00:12:57

condition or not? What's the tread like

00:12:59

on the tires? um does it come with any

00:13:01

extras like a dynamo which was a light

00:13:03

that was attached to the wheel of a bike

00:13:05

um you know what kind of mud cars so dad

00:13:07

made me go through the whole palava and

00:13:08

he said right we'll go out and we'll

00:13:10

spend your $100 that you've saved up to

00:13:11

buy the secondhand bike and it taught me

00:13:14

a lot about valuing money obviously and

00:13:17

and value and and also how to you know

00:13:19

to negotiate and to do all those sorts

00:13:21

of things and and it's interesting then

00:13:23

you fast forward with your own kids and

00:13:24

of course you're in a different

00:13:26

financial situation and it's easier just

00:13:28

to go down and buy the bike and you know

00:13:30

from the warehouse or whatever you need

00:13:31

to do. Uh and so how do you transfer

00:13:34

those values that my dad was teaching me

00:13:36

of how to buy a bike which was actually

00:13:38

a precursor to how to buy a car and how

00:13:39

to buy a house and teach me those sorts

00:13:41

of things. Um how do you transfer that

00:13:43

to your kids uh when your values you

00:13:46

want to teach those values but you

00:13:47

actually have different you know you

00:13:48

know financial circumstances or

00:13:50

conditions that you're in. So no I love

00:13:52

that bike and from there I got my paper

00:13:53

round and we're away. Did you have a

00:13:55

cruiser as well? Yeah I wanted a BMX.

00:13:57

No, mate. They were wanted me to give me

00:13:58

a sensible bike. Yeah. My brother got

00:14:00

the um Rally 20, but then he got an HMX

00:14:03

600 and then the HMX 500. And that was

00:14:05

Healing, which was a New Zealand bike

00:14:07

company a that made bikes in the late

00:14:09

'7s, early 80s. It was pretty cool. So,

00:14:12

that's one photo. That's cool. Who Who

00:14:14

was um Christopher Lux as a kid? What

00:14:15

What was the most trouble you got in?

00:14:17

Not a lot of trouble. I got into a

00:14:19

little bit more trouble in um in sort of

00:14:21

early high school, third, fourth fourth

00:14:23

form probably. you know was that

00:14:24

troublesome year between school suit as

00:14:26

it was and after you started third form

00:14:28

by what uh they the rain the French

00:14:30

bombed the rainbow warrior if you

00:14:31

remember in 1985 uh 8485 was it and um I

00:14:36

remember I was in French class I didn't

00:14:38

really like French uh that much and I

00:14:39

just thought we'd have a boycott of

00:14:40

French as a result of all of that um at

00:14:43

Howard College uh so that was probably

00:14:44

not the that was probably as you know as

00:14:46

far as I sort of went at that point so

00:14:48

but I was pretty well behaved um pretty

00:14:51

um I mean I was the old I was born My

00:14:53

parents were young, you know, they were

00:14:54

21, 22 when I was born. They had left

00:14:57

school at 15, 16. Um, they're awesome

00:15:00

parents, amazing people. Um, my mom went

00:15:02

on to become a therapist and a counselor

00:15:04

and stuff. Um, I actually got her to

00:15:06

come to university when I'd got to

00:15:07

university. But I was a pretty, you

00:15:09

know, I I'm a big extrovert, so I get a

00:15:12

lot of energy from being around people.

00:15:13

Um, and so that's always been the case.

00:15:15

It's how I process by talking and and

00:15:18

meeting with people. Um um and yeah, I

00:15:22

just pretty pretty Yeah, pretty pretty

00:15:24

well behaved oldest child, I guess.

00:15:26

Well, you you must have been a bully at

00:15:27

some point to your younger siblings.

00:15:28

It's a right of passage, isn't it? Yeah.

00:15:30

Well, we were actually really close and

00:15:31

my parents did a very good job. So, I'm

00:15:33

the oldest of three boys, right?

00:15:34

Christopher, Carl, and Matthew. And um

00:15:36

we're all quite close in ages, probably

00:15:38

three of us under the age of five. And

00:15:40

but actually, we were taught that we all

00:15:42

had different skills. And mom and dad

00:15:44

were actually, you know, said, you know,

00:15:45

you're different, but you're equal. And

00:15:47

so I was, you know, good at sport and

00:15:49

and liked um school and study and stuff

00:15:51

like that. Carl's incredibly creative

00:15:53

and, you know, uber smart. Uh and

00:15:55

Matthew awesome people person and um you

00:15:58

know, has gone into big environmental

00:15:59

spaces and stuff like that. Um, so we

00:16:02

were raised to sort of really respect

00:16:04

each other's differences and and my mom

00:16:05

was really thoughtful about that stuff

00:16:08

and there were different times when

00:16:09

actually we're all at different schools

00:16:10

because mom and dad were trying to match

00:16:12

the school to the kid, you know, to make

00:16:14

sure that we were sort of um and I was

00:16:16

one of those kids that was going to be

00:16:17

fine anywhere I kind of went. Um, then

00:16:19

the brother Carl at one point he needed

00:16:21

a bit more external discipline and you

00:16:23

know he needed something different. So

00:16:24

um, so it was all good. So, we were

00:16:26

raised we're really tight and um and in

00:16:28

fact it's interesting because we all

00:16:30

left home at the same time. All three of

00:16:32

us left home and we never went back and

00:16:34

so mom and dad at 44 uh had no kids at

00:16:37

home. We' all left and we never never

00:16:38

came home. And so the three of us then

00:16:40

went uh our sort of individual ways

00:16:43

building our careers and Matthew, the

00:16:45

youngest, was overseas for a bit. I was

00:16:46

obviously overseas for 16 years. Carl

00:16:48

was building his career here in New

00:16:49

Zealand and hospitality and hotels and

00:16:52

things. But every time I came home um

00:16:55

every year we'd go to devotional

00:16:56

campground and just out of Christ Church

00:16:59

uh on the road to Akaroa. And we also

00:17:01

worked quite hard to make sure that just

00:17:03

the three of us had time without our

00:17:04

partners and without our kids just to

00:17:06

build new experiences together because

00:17:08

often for guys it's the shared

00:17:10

experiences of the things we've done

00:17:11

together that builds the relationship.

00:17:13

And a lot of our reference was obviously

00:17:15

when we're at home and all the crazy

00:17:16

stuff we got up to there. But as adults

00:17:19

and as people that you know, how do you

00:17:20

feed and keep feeding that relationship

00:17:22

as you as you move through your 20s and

00:17:24

30s and you're actually living apart

00:17:26

from each other? And it's one of the

00:17:28

great joys of my life now is, you know,

00:17:29

that I get to I talk to my brothers

00:17:31

probably, you know, once or twice a

00:17:33

week, you know. Wow. Yeah. Mom and dad

00:17:34

every day, every second day. Um so we're

00:17:37

really tight family. Yeah. Yeah. So, so

00:17:39

if I've got the um calculations correct,

00:17:40

your your parents are still younger than

00:17:42

the deputy prime minister and younger

00:17:44

than the previous two American

00:17:46

presidents. Yeah. Yeah, they are. So,

00:17:48

mom and dad are um 76. Uh yeah, 70.

00:17:51

Yeah, 76. Yeah. Yeah. Your mom Your mom

00:17:54

sound Kathleen. She sounds amazing. When

00:17:56

When did you last have some bacon and

00:17:58

egg pie? Uh not that. Uh actually, I

00:18:00

haven't had bacon egg pie from her for a

00:18:02

while, but she makes some mean bacon and

00:18:03

egg pie, but obviously spoke to her on

00:18:05

on Mother's Day on Sunday and uh due to

00:18:07

talk to her later on this afternoon. But

00:18:09

mom's really cool. Yeah. So dad was

00:18:11

really came from a pretty tough

00:18:12

background and um really became as I

00:18:15

said I remember writing him a letter

00:18:16

actually when I was 30 about just

00:18:18

thanking him for changing the course of

00:18:20

I I called it a river of how he changed

00:18:22

the and bent the river sort of to change

00:18:23

the course of parenting in our family as

00:18:25

a dad and my mom's amazing as well she

00:18:27

left school at 15 uh ended up um but

00:18:30

very intuitive really good you know big

00:18:33

feeling person very thoughtful very

00:18:35

smart and I got to university and I was

00:18:37

the first ever to go to university in my

00:18:38

family I didn't know anyone who had been

00:18:40

to university um really and I got there

00:18:43

and I was in my second or third year and

00:18:45

I said to mom you you should come to

00:18:47

university mom you'd be awesome and um

00:18:49

and so she came to University of

00:18:51

Canterbury when I was there I think and

00:18:53

just as I was finishing up uh and she uh

00:18:55

did a diploma in social work and then

00:18:58

she's gone on to become a really

00:19:00

outstanding you know therapist counselor

00:19:03

um and and she always had that

00:19:05

orientation she always read a lot you

00:19:06

know as I was growing up as a kid and um

00:19:09

was really thoughtful about that stuff.

00:19:10

And yeah, she's amazing. I mean, even

00:19:12

today, you know, at 76, she supervises a

00:19:15

whole range of counselors and has some

00:19:16

of her own private clients still today.

00:19:18

But as a result, I I was really

00:19:20

privileged because I grew up in a family

00:19:21

where my father was uh had worked from

00:19:24

the bottom up, you know, and had worked

00:19:25

really hard to become a sales rep and

00:19:27

then a sales manager, worked for a

00:19:28

company called Johnson and Johnson.

00:19:30

Yeah. And then my mom had, you know,

00:19:32

sort of been very interested in sort of,

00:19:35

you know, psychology and and

00:19:37

personalities and and all that sort of

00:19:39

thing. And so I sort of felt I got a

00:19:41

good uh upbringing in terms of, you

00:19:44

know, sort of both the soft and the hard

00:19:46

and sort of I think it she they were

00:19:48

very determined to build good EQ skills

00:19:49

for what you'd call it today uh into

00:19:51

into us. And um I think that served me

00:19:54

incredibly well. The mom was always of

00:19:55

the of the view which was I remember

00:19:57

saying to me as a little chat, you know,

00:19:58

walk across the room and find someone

00:20:00

different from you and and talk to them.

00:20:02

And I I remember saying the same thing

00:20:04

to my kids when I was parenting as well

00:20:06

because, you know, it was like, you

00:20:07

know, schools can be very clicky and and

00:20:10

you said even more so, I think, in this

00:20:11

day and age. And I said to Olivia, you

00:20:13

know, you got to be Switzerland, you

00:20:14

know, you got to be friendly with

00:20:15

everybody, you know, and um and you find

00:20:17

that kid that sort of is a bit lost and

00:20:19

go go say hello and and you never know

00:20:20

what's going to happen when you do that.

00:20:22

So, um, yeah, I think mom, you know,

00:20:24

really got me thinking about people and

00:20:27

care of people. And dad was, you know,

00:20:29

just a born optimist, you know, just

00:20:31

don't let your circumstances define who

00:20:33

you are and where you're going and what

00:20:34

you're about. So, um, and so that

00:20:36

combination was pretty special to be

00:20:38

invested in me really. H how do they how

00:20:41

do they cope with I mean, it's a surreal

00:20:43

position, your son growing up to be the

00:20:44

prime minister of the country. How do

00:20:46

they cope with um like the criticism?

00:20:48

Uh, I'm just thinking of my mom. Like my

00:20:49

mom is she's my biggest cheerleader.

00:20:51

Like same. She's super supportive. So

00:20:53

when when people are calling you like

00:20:55

bland or boring or whatever, like I

00:20:57

think that's really hard. Well, they

00:20:59

call us a lot worse than that. Let's be

00:21:00

honest about it. Um, but mom the first

00:21:03

time sort of I guess I I cuz I'd left

00:21:05

home at I left New Zealand at 24. Amanda

00:21:08

and I had met at 15 um and we were away

00:21:10

overseas. And then I came back and

00:21:12

obviously took on the New Zealand job

00:21:13

which had more public profile I guess in

00:21:15

New Zealand um than most CEO jobs. And

00:21:18

then when I came into politics, I

00:21:19

remember mom had read the first article

00:21:21

and I think when the Herald and she

00:21:22

said, "Oh gee, they don't like you that

00:21:24

much." I said, "Mom, what do you mean?"

00:21:25

I said the article was okay. She said,

00:21:27

"Oh, I read all the comment section. I

00:21:28

said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:21:30

Please don't do that. They ain't going

00:21:32

to like your little boy." So like, let's

00:21:33

just be really clear about this. Uh so

00:21:35

um I think it's really difficult for

00:21:37

them. I think it's actually in some ways

00:21:38

harder for them than it is and family

00:21:40

than it is for me personally going

00:21:42

through the experience and I'm sure you

00:21:44

know Chris Hipkins and John Key and

00:21:45

Justinda would say similar things but it

00:21:47

is you know you you do life with these

00:21:50

family and friends that actually love

00:21:51

you because of who you are not because

00:21:53

of what you do. Um and also you know

00:21:56

they they take a lot of the the you know

00:21:58

the bruising from the criticism as well.

00:22:00

and and if you're not if you're not in

00:22:02

the political world um you know which my

00:22:04

parents aren't they're just really

00:22:06

decent good people who um you know tried

00:22:08

to raise a great family and and help

00:22:10

people um you know some of that can be

00:22:12

quite quite challenging so I think

00:22:14

they've all learned coping mechanisms

00:22:16

for actually you know not making it

00:22:18

personal um and that's what I've had to

00:22:20

do and that's what you know the family

00:22:21

does as well

00:22:23

yeah from what I can gather you've had

00:22:25

very few jobs in your career c can I try

00:22:28

and do them from current to okay So, um,

00:22:30

politics, y uh, airline boss. Yeah. Uh,

00:22:34

unilver for various roles for 17 years.

00:22:36

16 years. 16 years. Um, porter at Crown

00:22:40

Plaza. Yeah. Park Park Royal Hotel

00:22:42

Crush. Um, three years at McDonald's.

00:22:45

Yeah. And And um a neighborhood window

00:22:48

washing business at 12. Yeah. Yeah. Is

00:22:50

that the lot? Yeah. That's pretty much

00:22:52

it. I mean, it's um it's been

00:22:54

interesting actually my career because

00:22:56

Yeah. As I said, my dad was a real um

00:22:58

positivity kind of guy, you know. I

00:23:00

remember he I read a book called Life is

00:23:02

Tremendous by Charlie Tremendous Jones

00:23:04

and he would have given it to all the

00:23:05

sales reps and I must have been about 12

00:23:06

or 13. And so I was always encouraged to

00:23:09

do like entrepreneurial things. So I had

00:23:11

a lot of things on the go as a kid

00:23:12

through you know my teenage life. I was

00:23:14

a I had a professional window cleaning

00:23:16

round. I had um a fence painting, roof

00:23:18

painting and deck painting business

00:23:19

here. Um I traded Commando War

00:23:22

magazines. You might remember those.

00:23:24

Remember remember those. an intermediate

00:23:26

age. We we had those and uh and so I I

00:23:29

was just doing lots of stuff like that.

00:23:31

I had an artificial flower business that

00:23:33

I would you know that would get people

00:23:34

would contract for a monthly service and

00:23:36

flower arrangers would come and go all

00:23:38

through university and I was I I learned

00:23:40

to um I I was sort of learned to take

00:23:43

responsibility for financial things

00:23:44

pretty early on and um so yeah that was

00:23:47

it and I obviously worked at McDonald's

00:23:49

which I loved and in Christ Church when

00:23:50

it came to town it was a big deal and

00:23:52

then I worked at the porter as a porter

00:23:54

at the park rail but a lot of it was

00:23:55

people stuff right I love people and as

00:23:58

an extrovert sort of engaging with that

00:23:59

and then I went to university, did a

00:24:01

three-year BCOM, and then I got asked I

00:24:03

got into a one-year masters of commerce

00:24:05

and business administration and halfway

00:24:07

through that year, I got recruited by

00:24:09

this company called Uni Lever, which one

00:24:10

of the biggest companies in the world as

00:24:12

on their management trainee program. And

00:24:14

so I came out of that with after my four

00:24:16

years with the two degrees and joined

00:24:18

Unilver and um it was an amazing place

00:24:21

for a kid from Christ Church you know

00:24:22

because um they then you know uh I

00:24:26

joined the graduate program which was

00:24:28

you did a lot of psych testing and

00:24:30

leadership development and investment

00:24:31

happened over that period of time and so

00:24:34

I then got into you know a global pool

00:24:36

of talent and that was what led me then

00:24:38

moving around the world. So I had two

00:24:39

years here in New Zealand, 5 years in

00:24:41

Sydney, and then time in London,

00:24:43

Chicago, Toronto, and New York. And I

00:24:46

love that place cuz it was one of the

00:24:47

big global companies of the world. You

00:24:48

got to travel all over the place. I

00:24:50

probably visited every country. Um I was

00:24:53

doing a global job while I was also

00:24:54

trying to run bits of the American

00:24:56

business or uh Asian business. And so it

00:24:59

was just a really very stimulating

00:25:00

environment and a great educational

00:25:02

environment really. Are you still brand

00:25:04

loyal now? What deodorant are you

00:25:06

wearing today? Uh, today I'm still

00:25:07

wearing my Rexana deodorant and my Yep.

00:25:10

Yeah, exactly. Can you Can you use my

00:25:12

Dove body wash this morning? Why Why is

00:25:14

there so little deodorant in the in the

00:25:16

bottles you buy? Oh, I can't I I can't I

00:25:19

don't know where that's what they call

00:25:20

shrinkflation, isn't it? Right. Over

00:25:22

inflation. They sort of do that. But,

00:25:23

um, the weirdest thing was I ended up

00:25:25

running sort of, you know, being

00:25:26

responsible for hair care companies. And

00:25:28

when you look like me, I mean, and you

00:25:29

and you rocking to Tony and Guy and, uh,

00:25:31

I think we bought the Tony and Guy

00:25:33

business as well. And it's sort of like

00:25:35

you end up paying a lot more for the

00:25:36

businesses because you sort of they

00:25:38

think you're going to just destroy

00:25:38

value, you know, cuz it's like you got

00:25:41

you got this bull guy showing us we can

00:25:43

do wonderful things with your hair care

00:25:44

company if you let us buy it off you.

00:25:45

But um but honestly for a kid from New

00:25:47

Zealand to be able to uh it got me very

00:25:50

globally oriented, which I was what I

00:25:52

was always wanting to do. And so for me

00:25:54

actually a lot of what I learned at

00:25:55

unilver uh people probably don't realize

00:25:57

but it's very helpful in the roles that

00:25:59

I do now on the international front

00:26:01

connecting with world leaders or going

00:26:03

to countries. So when I I was probably I

00:26:06

think I probably came to the job of

00:26:07

prime minister one of the prime

00:26:09

ministers that knew the world the best

00:26:10

because I sort of had worked for one of

00:26:11

the big global multinational companies

00:26:13

and I had been to India multiple times.

00:26:16

I've been to, you know, Manila multiple

00:26:18

times and uh China many many times and

00:26:20

so I understand those markets and I

00:26:22

understand the countries pretty well and

00:26:25

um I used to do things like cuz I

00:26:27

traveled probably internationally every

00:26:28

week um for a long period of time. Um,

00:26:31

one is that I would sort of get to a

00:26:33

country and I had a rule which was you

00:26:35

I'd go from the airport and I'd go

00:26:36

straight to someone's house, a

00:26:38

consumer's house and I'd have 2 hours of

00:26:40

a conversation that I could talk about

00:26:41

anything I wanted to talk about um to

00:26:43

try and understand what was happening

00:26:45

for people in those countries. And so I

00:26:47

remember flying into Russia um and

00:26:49

Moscow and going to an apartment and

00:26:51

meeting with a couple there and I could

00:26:53

talk to them before I met anybody from

00:26:55

the business, you know, before because

00:26:57

they were often wealthy expatriots and

00:26:59

living a different life from what you

00:27:00

felt the people were living. And that

00:27:02

way I didn't just bounce around the

00:27:04

world, you know, staying in a Hilton

00:27:05

hotel that was the same whether it was

00:27:07

in Bangkok or or America or or Argentina

00:27:10

or somewhere. Um so I think, you know,

00:27:12

that part of being a part of a global

00:27:13

business like that was really great. Um

00:27:15

you learned lots around lots of

00:27:17

different you know parts of business

00:27:19

obviously and different businesses that

00:27:20

you were responsible for but that needed

00:27:22

turnaround sorting out cleaning up mix

00:27:24

you know growth but the most incredible

00:27:27

thing was you work with some really

00:27:28

smart people and so you learn a lot of

00:27:30

people skills as well and actually what

00:27:32

I learned in life was it's not actually

00:27:34

your book smarts that really determine

00:27:36

how far you go. It's actually are you

00:27:38

curious about learning new things? Can

00:27:40

you deal with conflict? Um can you

00:27:42

communicate effectively? Uh, and do you

00:27:44

have good character? And those are the

00:27:45

things that ultimately determine, you

00:27:47

know, how high people go ultimately.

00:27:50

You mentioned your your hair or lack of

00:27:52

just a second ago. I've I've got a photo

00:27:54

here of you at McDonald's. It's a

00:27:55

fabulous fabulous hair. Um, this might

00:27:58

seem like a great trip down memory lane.

00:28:00

It's awesome. This this might seem like

00:28:01

a silly question, but um, it's a serious

00:28:04

question for me cuz I've got I've got a

00:28:05

few friends that are bored and a couple

00:28:06

of them are still in their 40s and they

00:28:08

won't be seen without a baseball cap.

00:28:09

Yeah, I've got a mate who's um a

00:28:10

good-look fit dude and he's been bored

00:28:12

and I never thought anything of it, but

00:28:13

he went to Turkey last year to get a

00:28:15

hair transplant. I've seen that mate on

00:28:17

YouTube transformed his life between the

00:28:18

veneers and the hair transplants. Yeah.

00:28:20

Yeah. What was your relationship like

00:28:22

with losing your hair? Oh, it was just

00:28:23

like let's embrace it. You know, there's

00:28:25

not much you can do about it. It's pure

00:28:26

genetics. Um let's go for it. And so, um

00:28:29

you know, you know, in your head you

00:28:31

think, well, Jason Staithm, he's a

00:28:32

good-looking bull dude. You know, Joe

00:28:34

Rogan. Yeah, Joe Rogan. You know,

00:28:36

there's plenty of us now.

00:28:39

I'm doing this job for the bald men of

00:28:40

New Zealand, showing what's possible. We

00:28:42

can't all be male models like yourself

00:28:44

with a full head of hair. But um but no,

00:28:46

like I mean um look, it wasn't I mean it

00:28:49

was just something I just you know you

00:28:50

just have to embrace and go with it,

00:28:52

right? It is what it is. And so um uh

00:28:54

but you funny you funny you say that I

00:28:55

was going through Turkey after coming

00:28:57

back from Gallipoli and I passed through

00:28:58

Istanbul to meet with the president of

00:29:00

Turkey and I um yeah I real didn't

00:29:03

realize man there's a whole new um

00:29:04

cosmetic tourism industry that's coming

00:29:06

out of Turkey that's got some pretty

00:29:08

cool looks going on. It's massive. Yeah.

00:29:10

When I went there the hotel the hotel

00:29:11

buffet in the morning dudes everywhere

00:29:12

with bands on and like blood coming out

00:29:15

of their paws. I reckon you might Yeah.

00:29:18

It would have been quite funny if I'd

00:29:19

come back from Turkey uh like that. I

00:29:22

walked into cabinet the next week and

00:29:23

gone, "Hi guys, good to see you again."

00:29:26

Imagine that. Um, I've got another photo

00:29:28

for you. Um, it's yourself and that's

00:29:31

awesome. So, um, best decision I ever

00:29:33

made. Yeah. So, what's the So, you I've

00:29:36

read various stories. So, you you're 15

00:29:38

and she's 17 when you met. Um, I've

00:29:40

heard it was a church youth group thing.

00:29:44

Belong to a big church youth group and

00:29:45

we had a lot of friends. you know, 60 70

00:29:47

kids there and we had a progressive

00:29:48

what's called in the old days had this

00:29:50

thing called progressive dinner and so

00:29:51

you go around different kids' parents'

00:29:53

houses and um you know you'd have a a

00:29:55

main course an entree dessert you know

00:29:58

whatever snacks food so we were on a car

00:30:00

rally and it was a sort of a car rally

00:30:02

where you had to sort of answer

00:30:03

questions and quizzes and stuff like

00:30:05

that and we just moved back from Oakland

00:30:06

to Christ Church um and I got to meet

00:30:08

Amanda through that and you know we met

00:30:11

when we were 15 we really became really

00:30:12

good friends with a big group of kids

00:30:14

and yeah I actually think that's

00:30:15

important for kids to have quite wide

00:30:18

circles of friends. I my kids were

00:30:20

pretty much the same. And um we started

00:30:22

dating at 19, married at 23, and then

00:30:24

did life the rest of life together. And

00:30:26

honestly, best decision I'll ever make.

00:30:28

You know, greatest privilege of my life

00:30:30

being married to Manda. When when um so

00:30:33

you knew each other for four years as

00:30:34

friends before you got together as a

00:30:35

couple. Did you did you have a crush on

00:30:38

her? Were you in love with her during

00:30:40

that time? I mean, yeah, I mean, we just

00:30:42

we were friends first, you know, sort

00:30:43

of. And um but yeah, obviously I thought

00:30:46

she was stunning. Yeah. And uh and you

00:30:48

know, we went to you we're partnering

00:30:50

with each other at school balls and or

00:30:52

actually her teachers college ball. She

00:30:53

was she's 2 years older than me, but

00:30:55

she's also left school at six form, went

00:30:57

straight to university from the six

00:30:58

form. So I was actually three years

00:30:59

ahead of me at at um academically and

00:31:01

stuff. And so um yeah, to this day she

00:31:04

uh is still a bit upset that I didn't

00:31:06

invite her as my date to my school ball,

00:31:08

but I went to her teachers college ball

00:31:10

was her her date. So um but no you know

00:31:12

that that without doubt is sort of the

00:31:14

the thing that I think you know Amanda's

00:31:16

my rock really in terms of we've you

00:31:18

know done life together with all its ups

00:31:20

and downs and you know obviously we have

00:31:23

both come from pretty similar

00:31:24

backgrounds and family wise and our

00:31:26

parents have subsequently got to know

00:31:28

each other well and are good friends and

00:31:29

that's been you know great for us

00:31:31

raising our kids uh to have their both

00:31:33

grandparents you know in relationships

00:31:34

with each other too but you know we left

00:31:37

we left New Zealand as I said when I was

00:31:38

24 and um you know we went and had you

00:31:40

know William was born in Sydney and

00:31:42

Olivia was born in London and the kids

00:31:43

were really raised in Chicago and um you

00:31:46

know you have to get really tight you

00:31:48

know as a couple of how do you do I had

00:31:50

quite extreme jobs at a young age I had

00:31:52

big jobs at a young age she also was an

00:31:55

outstanding teacher um and then became a

00:31:57

really great consultant working with

00:31:59

MyersBriggs and conflict management with

00:32:01

boards and teams and all that sort of

00:32:03

skill set and is just really smart and

00:32:06

so you know there were times when for

00:32:08

her to carry on with her consulting I

00:32:10

was in a stable place and able to do all

00:32:12

the school run and stuff like that and

00:32:13

she could do more of that. But she's

00:32:15

been awesome on this whole journey of

00:32:17

that we've been on together. So, um,

00:32:19

yeah, it's pretty awesome really. I

00:32:21

mean, really amazing. Was the proposal

00:32:23

anything special? What did you What did

00:32:25

you do? Um, I actually for three of the

00:32:27

four years we were dating, we were in

00:32:29

different cities, you know, so actually

00:32:30

made our communication skills get really

00:32:32

tight. And it sounds, you know, we were

00:32:33

young and um but actually we I think

00:32:36

both had our heads, you know, on screwed

00:32:38

on pretty well and sort of, you know,

00:32:39

wanted to get, you know, good at that.

00:32:41

So, no, I came down to Christ Church. I

00:32:42

remember uh going out to the garage to

00:32:44

ask Tom, her dad, who had recently just

00:32:46

said I could call, stop calling him Mr.

00:32:48

Ray, and call him Tom, which I didn't

00:32:49

mean, so I didn't call him anything for

00:32:50

a year cuz I was too embarrassed to call

00:32:52

him anything. And then I went out to the

00:32:53

garage to sort of ask for formal

00:32:54

permission to marry his daughter. And I

00:32:56

remember there was a guy Ray who was his

00:32:58

neighbor who was over in his basically

00:33:00

his his tight shorts and his um tank top

00:33:02

and he was talking to Tom and I got too

00:33:04

nervous to ask Tom formally for

00:33:05

permission and you know just it was a

00:33:07

standard uh proposal at a at a

00:33:08

restaurant in Christ Church which was

00:33:09

pretty cool. And did you did you save

00:33:11

yourselves for marriage? Well, I mean we

00:33:13

um yeah we were very committed to each

00:33:15

other. Yeah. And so that's been our you

00:33:17

know we we basically I wanted to make

00:33:19

sure when I go into a relationship with

00:33:20

someone I want to do it for life and

00:33:21

that was Amanda for me. Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:23

That's cool. What what's the biggest

00:33:25

argument or conflict you guys have had?

00:33:27

We don't we don't actually have huge

00:33:29

Barney, you know, like it's actually

00:33:30

interesting. You know, our personalities

00:33:32

are such that we sort of, you know,

00:33:34

Amanda's probably more of an introvert.

00:33:36

She needs to get up in the morning, do a

00:33:38

12k run, come back, do her fitness

00:33:40

stuff, and um and that's how she

00:33:43

processes. She's a very gregarious

00:33:44

introvert, I'd say, is how I'd describe

00:33:46

it. Um but no, we tend to process along

00:33:49

the way. So, you know, if we've got

00:33:50

irritants with each other or issues with

00:33:52

each other, we we just openly just talk

00:33:53

about before before the end of a day.

00:33:55

And um I was lucky I I had awesome

00:33:58

grandparents who, you know, on my mom's

00:34:00

side who were married for a very long

00:34:02

time, you know, I think 60 something

00:34:03

years. Uh my parents been married for,

00:34:05

you know, 55 years. So, we had good

00:34:07

models of parenting uh and and and

00:34:10

relationships. But no, we our issues are

00:34:12

are very small in the scheme of things.

00:34:14

Um and if we do, we we just sit down and

00:34:16

talk it out. We we've done things ever

00:34:18

since we were actually dating. We would,

00:34:20

you know, we would actually just go on

00:34:22

walks and just talk about, you know, how

00:34:24

we want things to be. You know, every

00:34:26

Christmas we'd come home to New Zealand.

00:34:29

The mom and dad would take the kids. Um

00:34:31

we we'd check into a hotel for two or

00:34:32

three days and actually just spend the

00:34:34

time thinking about what our year ahead

00:34:36

looks like, what we need from each

00:34:37

other, what we're going to do with the

00:34:38

kids. And for people listening, they go,

00:34:40

"Gee, this sounds very very planned and

00:34:41

organized." And it's

00:34:45

just life just carries on, right? And

00:34:47

you often don't get to stop and say,

00:34:49

"Hey, listen. Are we good? Are we okay?

00:34:51

What's going on for you? How are you

00:34:52

handling this? What do I need to do to

00:34:54

support you this year? Where are our

00:34:55

kids at? What do I think we need to

00:34:57

focus on this coming year with each of

00:34:58

them? Um, what are we doing well? What

00:35:00

do we not what do we need to step up um

00:35:02

and and do better?" So, that's the way

00:35:05

we kind of operate. And it probably

00:35:06

sounds odd for people listening, but

00:35:07

it's just what's been what's made it

00:35:09

work for us.

00:35:11

Um it seems odd but in in the best

00:35:13

possible way like it's all stuff that

00:35:14

takes effort. It and if you got a busy

00:35:16

job and you come home and you're tired

00:35:18

often the last thing you want to do is

00:35:19

communicate. I I I agree and I think you

00:35:21

know I learned that um I worked for a

00:35:23

lot of very senior folk um in my career

00:35:25

and I had big jobs early and I remember

00:35:28

talking to a guy came to see me in

00:35:29

Toronto once and he was like you know

00:35:31

early 50s and he said uh Chris I'm

00:35:33

life's not good. And I said what's going

00:35:35

on mate? And he says well I'm working 80

00:35:37

to 100 hours a week. He says I'm going

00:35:39

home. I'm really grumpy with my partner

00:35:41

and my my kids. I'm tired and I'm

00:35:44

fatigued all the time and life's not

00:35:46

good. And so we talked about it, you

00:35:47

know, and what I've learned is it's

00:35:49

actually about energy management, you

00:35:51

know, and I always believe, you know,

00:35:52

you've got to get connected to you, you

00:35:55

need mental stimulation, you know,

00:35:56

that's often your job. Uh you need

00:35:58

obviously physical, you know, uh keep

00:36:00

yourself healthy. You need social

00:36:02

stimulation and and whether it's

00:36:04

spiritual or purpose or something that's

00:36:06

connected. And when you get out of whack

00:36:07

and get stressed, it's because you're

00:36:08

overworking one of those four energy

00:36:10

types, you know, and you've actually got

00:36:12

to try and stay really balanced across

00:36:13

the whole piece of it. And it's hard,

00:36:15

you know, cuz life's complex and life is

00:36:17

hard, you know, and um and so for us,

00:36:20

that's what that check-in is really

00:36:21

about, you know. um uh you know you can

00:36:24

get over exercised where you get very

00:36:26

connected to your work and you get into

00:36:28

work you know just work mode all the

00:36:30

time and you don't allow yourself

00:36:32

moments to refresh and recharge and to

00:36:34

to put stuff into the bottle when you're

00:36:36

giving out a lot. Um so for me you know

00:36:38

I've always been I learned that from

00:36:40

Steven Kovi reading books when I was

00:36:42

very young at 17. you know, how do you

00:36:44

how do you manage energy as much as time

00:36:46

is really important? And that's a lot of

00:36:48

what our conversations are about is

00:36:50

okay, well, which which people are we

00:36:52

going to invest in our relationships

00:36:53

this year that, you know, that we, you

00:36:54

know, are good friends that we need to,

00:36:56

you know, take to a deeper level. What

00:36:58

what are the what what what do I man

00:37:00

often afflicting me around my physical

00:37:01

exercise because I love exercise. We

00:37:03

used to do a lot of it together and then

00:37:05

now with my job, it's been the one thing

00:37:06

I've actually struggled to sort of get

00:37:08

integrated, you know. I mean, you're um

00:37:10

you're a you're a you're a you're a

00:37:12

brisk walker. You're like I've not have

00:37:14

you notic a very very quick cadence when

00:37:16

you walk. Like if if you and Biden did a

00:37:18

like 100 me walking race, I reckon I'd

00:37:20

be at 25 to 30 m by the time you finish.

00:37:23

Yeah. My DPS guys say I walk quick. They

00:37:25

reckon I go 8K an hour. But what is your

00:37:27

Do you have like a set morning routine

00:37:28

or anything or I used to and that's to

00:37:30

be honest, Dom, that's the one thing

00:37:31

I've really struggled with in this job

00:37:33

is my body loves exercise and I

00:37:36

personally do as well. Um it's something

00:37:37

I really enjoyed. So Amanda and I used

00:37:39

to have, you know, we'd have a trainer

00:37:40

come when we lived in North America and,

00:37:42

you know, we'd really fogg ourselves. We

00:37:44

have a, you know, little a garage

00:37:46

converted into a gym at home. Um, I I

00:37:48

find because my routine's pretty full

00:37:50

on, right? So I'm sort of I've always

00:37:52

been up, you know, as a little even as a

00:37:54

young chap, you know, at 4:30 in the

00:37:56

morning. I then in in a parliamentary

00:37:58

week, I can go through to 12:00 or 1 at

00:38:00

night quite often. Um, and I've I'm

00:38:02

fortunate and because I think because I

00:38:04

had those global jobs when I was in my,

00:38:06

you know, late 20s. Um, and I'm used to

00:38:09

bouncing in and out of time zones and

00:38:10

things that I just got used to surviving

00:38:12

on very little sleep. And so I've always

00:38:14

been of the view that when I step

00:38:15

through that front door at my house, at

00:38:17

my home, it's my problem is the jet lag,

00:38:19

the tiredness, the fatigue, any of that.

00:38:21

And it's not Amanda's or the kids'

00:38:22

problem. I've got to be on for them. Um,

00:38:24

so for me, the then the temptation

00:38:26

becomes, well, I want to get up early

00:38:29

and go fogg myself and and um and go for

00:38:31

it um in the way that I can at times

00:38:33

when I might get a little bit of a break

00:38:34

or a holiday for a week or so. Um but um

00:38:38

but then you know actually I also need

00:38:39

to get you I'm trying to balance quite a

00:38:41

few things. So it's the one thing that I

00:38:43

don't think I've done well enough which

00:38:44

is integrate my um physical exercise and

00:38:47

and diet and stuff into into this job.

00:38:50

Where's the time though? E where's the

00:38:51

time? It's a full-on job. I mean you

00:38:53

probably spoken to you know Chris

00:38:54

Hipkins and and you know John Key and

00:38:57

Justinda Adam would say the same thing.

00:38:58

I mean it is a unique experience. I mean

00:39:00

you are drinking from a fire hydrant

00:39:02

from morning to night. um you can plan

00:39:05

as much as you possibly can and I'm

00:39:07

quite I'm a very planned and organized

00:39:09

kind of person um and we have pretty

00:39:11

good processes around how we operate um

00:39:13

at work at at the office but um equally

00:39:16

you've got to allow for margin for

00:39:18

things that just come from left field

00:39:20

and and throw you off course and so yeah

00:39:22

it's a full-on job and uh that's what I

00:39:24

love about it too you know like it it is

00:39:26

and I've always felt it's a life balance

00:39:28

thing you know people talk about this

00:39:29

work life balance I've never bought that

00:39:31

I've always thought it's a life balance

00:39:33

and It's, you know, I'm doing this right

00:39:35

now. You and I are doing this right now.

00:39:36

There'll be a gazillion emails and phone

00:39:38

calls outside. I'm not here

00:39:40

multi-purposing trying to do multiple.

00:39:41

We This is important. We're going to do

00:39:43

this. We're going to have power of full

00:39:44

engagement right now doing this stuff.

00:39:46

So, I think um yeah, it is challenging.

00:39:48

You know, there's you you you're under a

00:39:49

huge pressure um all the time. There's

00:39:51

just um a content and a volume of stuff

00:39:53

coming at you. If any if decisions were

00:39:56

easy, they're made further down the

00:39:58

chain. Um but the hard stuff comes your

00:40:00

way typically. So, um, but that's why

00:40:03

you want to do the job, right? I mean,

00:40:04

that's why you really want to do the

00:40:06

job. You want to be in the arena. You

00:40:07

want to be, uh, dealing with those

00:40:09

issues. Um, it's a huge responsibility,

00:40:11

but it's a huge privilege.

00:40:14

What would, um, your kids, uh, William

00:40:15

and Olivia and your wife M, what would

00:40:17

they say your best and worst habits are?

00:40:19

Oh, um, I think they would say like I

00:40:22

genuinely think, yeah, like I've I've

00:40:24

had extreme jobs, you know, from a very

00:40:26

young age, right? I mean, I've really

00:40:27

had like big jobs early and I think

00:40:30

they've they would say my kids would say

00:40:31

that they feel that I've always been

00:40:33

very present and that I'm around uh for

00:40:35

them. We don't talk politics at home

00:40:37

just to give you a feel for what goes on

00:40:39

in that dynamic. My kids, I am their

00:40:41

dad. Nothing has changed when I was CEO

00:40:43

of New Zealand or prime minister of New

00:40:45

Zealand. Um nothing's changed. I haven't

00:40:47

had a deep political conversation with

00:40:48

my kids on any of the topics. They have

00:40:50

strong opinions. They'll tell me if they

00:40:51

feel strongly about stuff. Um but for

00:40:53

them, I'm just dad and that's been quite

00:40:55

cool. Um but they would say look I think

00:40:58

he's been pretty present. Um I'm pretty

00:41:01

um I'm pretty organized and so you know

00:41:04

um part of my job as a dad is also to

00:41:06

set ambition and aspiration in my kids

00:41:08

as well and so you know it's part of it

00:41:09

is also probably to push them a little

00:41:11

bit as well. Um and I think that's

00:41:13

important. You know what worst habits

00:41:15

though worst habits? They they know you

00:41:18

better than anyone. Oh there's got to be

00:41:21

something. Um, they probably don't

00:41:23

appreciate getting sent the the baby

00:41:25

videos that I might watch at at 1:30 in

00:41:27

the morning on like videos. Oh, yeah.

00:41:29

I'm the algorithms on my social media

00:41:31

are just weird, mate. Like, I'm in a

00:41:33

phase where I'm getting sent all this

00:41:35

home renovation stuff and DIY stuff and

00:41:37

and hacks at the moment. And so, um,

00:41:40

I'll often send my daughter, uh, hacks

00:41:42

on sort of things I've discovered on

00:41:43

DIY, um, which she probably doesn't

00:41:45

fully appreciate. Um, but the other

00:41:48

thing is Olivia and I love music

00:41:50

together. And so ever since she was

00:41:52

little, we've always try and exchange

00:41:53

song of the day. Uh, and um, and so

00:41:57

every day or every second day or so,

00:41:59

she'll send me a piece of music on

00:42:00

Spotify. I'll send her one as well. And

00:42:02

then we have a lot of music pumping

00:42:03

through our house at most times when

00:42:05

we're all together and um, honing around

00:42:07

and dancing around in the kitchen. It's

00:42:08

great fun. So um, what are you what are

00:42:10

you into? I've heard you like country

00:42:11

music. Any particular I actually love

00:42:13

all sorts of music, you know. I really

00:42:15

do, you know. Um, you know, you we grew

00:42:17

up in an era, didn't we, where we had,

00:42:19

you know, the tape, you might remember

00:42:20

the tape decks and you make your own mix

00:42:22

tapes and dubbing high speed dubbing and

00:42:24

all that stuff. It's funny. I mean,

00:42:25

people listening to this conversation

00:42:26

go, "What the hell are these two old

00:42:28

guys talking about?" But um, but no, so

00:42:30

I I love all sorts of music. I got into

00:42:32

country music really because of living

00:42:34

in the States for 8 years. And uh after

00:42:36

a while it's just everywhere and it's

00:42:38

sort of not the old country and western

00:42:40

that a lot of New Zealanders would know

00:42:42

but it is you know um Zack Brian and

00:42:44

Luke Combmes and and that kind of stuff

00:42:46

which is actually becoming more popular

00:42:48

here you know it's been awesome to see

00:42:50

my song of the year was last year would

00:42:52

be Think I'm in love with you which was

00:42:54

Chris Stapleton and do a leap you know

00:42:55

doing a combination together you know it

00:42:57

was pretty awesome um you look at Post

00:42:58

Malone and F1 trillion his new album

00:43:01

it's pretty great um Zack Bryan nineball

00:43:03

awesome song you know So yeah, that's

00:43:05

pretty pretty, you know, that's Olivia

00:43:08

and I do music stuff together. That's

00:43:09

why we love going to concerts and things

00:43:10

like that. You mentioned the American um

00:43:13

piece of the puzzle. Um yeah, so you

00:43:15

were you were away from New Zealand for

00:43:16

a long time like 17 18 years and then

00:43:17

you moved back to back to New Zealand.

00:43:19

Um what were your key observations after

00:43:21

moving back like in terms of in

00:43:23

particular tall poppy and anti- rich

00:43:25

sentiment? Yeah, look, I think I think

00:43:27

the thing I learned, you know, I left

00:43:29

here at 24, as I said, probably came

00:43:31

back just on 40 or 40. I was 40 and um

00:43:35

and essentially I always felt like a

00:43:37

Kiwi when I went out overseas, but I

00:43:39

learned different things from living in

00:43:40

those different countries. And I lived

00:43:42

in what we'd call the five eyes

00:43:44

countries. I lived in Australia, London,

00:43:45

England, and uh Canada, and America. And

00:43:48

you know, when you go to Australia, um

00:43:50

there's just a lot more directness. It's

00:43:52

not personal. It's just that, you know,

00:43:54

you and I can be best mates, but I'm

00:43:56

going to tell you, mate, that really

00:43:57

pissed me off and annoyed me when you

00:43:58

did this and that. It's not personal,

00:44:00

but just giving you some feedback. So,

00:44:02

Australia is much more direct, a lot

00:44:04

more confidence um in some ways in terms

00:44:06

of how you dealt with people. So, I

00:44:07

found my language hardened up a lot, you

00:44:10

know, as you sort of dealt with people

00:44:11

um in that business setting. When I went

00:44:13

to England, it was very much at univer

00:44:15

it was an Oxbridge culture. So you had

00:44:17

to be really intellectually have your

00:44:19

first principles and your logic really

00:44:21

straightforward decisions that you were

00:44:22

making and and how you engage with

00:44:24

people and were respected. Um you know

00:44:26

when I went to America it's all about

00:44:28

you know delivery execution focus and so

00:44:30

you know um you know and you had all the

00:44:32

people I to join my company you had to

00:44:34

be a Harvard Yale you know Ivy Lee kind

00:44:36

of brain uh to be able to do that. So

00:44:38

you know you so you kept your New

00:44:40

Zealandness but you did pick up bits and

00:44:42

pieces from the best bits of different

00:44:44

countries while also observing the bits

00:44:46

you didn't think were that great. But I

00:44:47

think my New Zealandness actually and my

00:44:49

Kiwi actually made me very successful

00:44:50

internationally because I was more

00:44:53

general. I was broader than most people.

00:44:55

Kiwis are good with you know we have

00:44:56

strong relational skills and um I think

00:44:59

that served me really well and made me I

00:45:01

was different from from um those

00:45:03

management people or or kids that were

00:45:06

coming through in a different system. Um

00:45:08

and so when you came back home again,

00:45:09

you know, it was challenging in some

00:45:11

ways, but Amanda and I again always um

00:45:13

thought about it as if we yes, we were

00:45:15

coming home, which we were so excited

00:45:16

about, but we also wanted to manage our

00:45:18

expectations that we couldn't just we

00:45:20

couldn't just slot into all the

00:45:21

friendships we had when we left 16 years

00:45:23

ago cuz we'd all everyone had changed

00:45:25

and move forward. Some of some of that

00:45:27

did happen naturally and some of it

00:45:28

didn't. But um so we just came back as

00:45:31

every time we moved countries we always

00:45:33

had a view that within 3 months we

00:45:34

should be pretty settled and we had a

00:45:36

bit of a process around that. wouldn't

00:45:37

surprise you given how organized I sort

00:45:39

of think about things and Amanda are the

00:45:41

same but um it was great coming home

00:45:43

particularly with the family pieces but

00:45:45

I do observe you know there are

00:45:46

differences you know I love the ambition

00:45:48

and aspiration of Australians and

00:45:49

Americans you know I think they they

00:45:51

celebrate success and you know I've

00:45:54

observed that here in New Zealand I've

00:45:56

probably been the brunt of that at times

00:45:57

I know John Key probably felt the same

00:45:59

way you know we're kids actually who

00:46:00

just came from regular backgrounds as

00:46:02

I've tried to talk about today um who

00:46:05

yep got a great education managed to do

00:46:07

well for ourselves and and you know that

00:46:10

success is sometimes you feel it's like

00:46:12

a a negative thing and it's like well

00:46:14

don't you want someone why can't someone

00:46:16

successful like me come into the

00:46:18

parliament I know my background is not a

00:46:20

standard career politician I've done a

00:46:22

bunch of other stuff that I think is has

00:46:24

skills that are transferable in the you

00:46:26

want parliament to be representative of

00:46:27

all New Zealanders from all walks of

00:46:29

life but just because I've been

00:46:31

successful and um you don't you know

00:46:33

that's not a reason why I can't be in

00:46:35

parliament either and I actually think

00:46:36

it's what New Zealand kind of needs.

00:46:37

Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you find that

00:46:39

frustrating? It's not I don't get

00:46:41

frustrated by the criticism. I mean, I

00:46:43

listen to the criticism. It's like

00:46:44

social media. I'm sort of informed, but

00:46:46

I'm not um consumed by it. And I'm also

00:46:49

of the view and I've had this view from

00:46:51

a very young age is that I don't take

00:46:53

offense from people I wouldn't take

00:46:54

advice from. Uh and it's pretty simple,

00:46:56

you know. So, and frankly, if you want

00:46:58

to critique and c from the sidelines,

00:47:00

feel free. But actually, you know,

00:47:02

otherwise, you know, show some guts and

00:47:04

get into the arena. You know, step into

00:47:05

the process if you want to. I don't have

00:47:07

to do this job. I choose to do this job.

00:47:09

I want to do this job cuz I genuinely am

00:47:11

committed to a mission of of improving

00:47:13

and realizing New Zealand's potential.

00:47:15

I've been all around the world. I've

00:47:16

seen the good, the bad of of each and

00:47:18

every country. I know we got an awesome

00:47:20

pot. So, I get connected to that. And

00:47:22

therefore, to be honest, the the

00:47:24

criticism doesn't really, you know,

00:47:26

worry me. I I I I have to listen to it

00:47:28

because there's often good points of

00:47:30

feedback in there of how I can be

00:47:31

better. Um but you have to watch some of

00:47:34

that stuff. Yeah. Yes. If I've got my

00:47:36

information that I read online correct,

00:47:38

your your pay cut from me in New Zealand

00:47:39

to parliament was like 90%.

00:47:42

4 million to I think you're on just

00:47:43

under half a million now. So it's is and

00:47:46

it seems like there's just sectors of

00:47:47

New Zealand that just have a real issue

00:47:49

with someone earning that sort of money.

00:47:51

Yeah. Look, I get it. And um you know uh

00:47:54

um I I don't I mean you don't make a

00:47:56

change like I've made um to and you know

00:47:59

people people would say you know if you

00:48:01

really were motivated by money you would

00:48:02

be you know in the peak earning period

00:48:04

of your life you wouldn't be doing

00:48:05

politics right so for me it never I've

00:48:08

not been a deeply material person yes

00:48:10

I've been paid uh very well um but you

00:48:13

know our family and I try and live with

00:48:15

the values that I was raised with in New

00:48:17

Zealand and try and impart that to my

00:48:18

kids and uh and you know Amanda and I

00:48:21

don't live what we'd call high. I think

00:48:23

um even John Key would tell you that he

00:48:25

thinks we that we don't live like that.

00:48:27

But um but but but but I just yeah I

00:48:30

mean I I get it and I understand why you

00:48:32

know that is but I I think um I feel

00:48:36

like I know what's going on in New

00:48:37

Zealand. I I've come from a background I

00:48:39

have family. I I see people each and

00:48:41

every day who are doing it tough. I

00:48:42

understand that reality. uh and just

00:48:44

because I may be, you know, uh in a

00:48:47

different place, you know, because of my

00:48:49

background or career, um doesn't it's

00:48:51

not doesn't mean I don't care or I don't

00:48:52

understand what's happening for people.

00:48:54

That's why I'm actually in politics is

00:48:55

because I think we can do so much better

00:48:57

than what we've been doing. At the point

00:49:00

we're recording this, I'm I'm guessing

00:49:01

you're about halfway through your

00:49:03

current term as Yeah, exactly. Pretty

00:49:05

much half time. Um yeah, report card.

00:49:08

What what what have you done really

00:49:09

well? What could you be doing better?

00:49:10

Yeah, look, I think I mean I'm one of

00:49:12

those people who's constructively

00:49:13

dissatisfied all the time. So, I always

00:49:15

think there's things I personally could

00:49:16

be doing better. I think, you know, we

00:49:18

could as a team could be doing better.

00:49:20

Um, I'm grossly impatient about the

00:49:22

results and outcomes. You know, that's

00:49:23

why I sort of, you know, I think if I

00:49:25

zoom back a bit, I think New Zealand

00:49:27

public, but I think when I talk to other

00:49:29

world leaders, publics all around the

00:49:30

world are just grumpy. They're

00:49:32

frustrated. Um, it's an age of

00:49:35

dislocation at the moment with

00:49:36

technology and disruption. uh and

00:49:39

they're over politicians and glib sort

00:49:40

of bumper stickers and and statements.

00:49:42

They kind of want you to deliver

00:49:43

outcomes and results for them. And I

00:49:46

think that's actually why my background

00:49:47

and coming in at this time in New

00:49:48

Zealand's you know political history is

00:49:50

actually really important you know

00:49:51

because that is my my story of turning

00:49:53

things around and sorting things out and

00:49:55

getting better results and outcomes. So

00:49:57

um I think you know what we've done well

00:49:59

is you know we've formed the first

00:50:00

three-party coalition government in New

00:50:02

Zealand. You know really difficult thing

00:50:03

to do but MMP is our political system,

00:50:06

our electoral system. um it's matured.

00:50:08

It's coming up almost 30 years since

00:50:10

we've had it now. Um it means that you

00:50:12

have to find ways to collaborate. You

00:50:14

may not wish to do so, but actually the

00:50:15

New Zealand people vote and they give us

00:50:17

an election result on election night and

00:50:19

then we're tasked with trying to make

00:50:20

that work. And um I think the way that

00:50:22

our coalition has come together with

00:50:24

very big and different personalities and

00:50:26

different parties with different

00:50:27

policies and different constituents. You

00:50:29

know, you see it in Western Europe. You

00:50:31

know, it's the same system that we have

00:50:32

here in New Zealand. I think we've done

00:50:33

a good job of managing that and keeping

00:50:35

the government focused on what it's got

00:50:37

to do, which is sort out this economy,

00:50:39

restore law, and order better public

00:50:40

services. So, you know, that's also got

00:50:42

to get performance out of the public

00:50:44

service to help us do that as well.

00:50:45

Yeah. Now, you're um you're a

00:50:48

relentlessly positive optimist. Um

00:50:51

journalists by nature are sort of

00:50:53

negative glass half empty people. I'd

00:50:54

say I've noticed a couple of times it's

00:50:56

it seems like you've been you you've got

00:50:57

snappy with the media. I don't I don't I

00:51:00

don't think I do. I might they might I

00:51:01

might have a furough brow from time to

00:51:03

time but um I don't no I actually the

00:51:06

media have got a job to do right I mean

00:51:08

they have a really important job to do

00:51:09

which is to hold us to account uh and

00:51:12

you know that's something I hugely

00:51:13

respect. I don't always agree with them

00:51:15

or their you know their you know um you

00:51:18

know their view but I also just don't

00:51:20

think there's any value in me

00:51:21

complaining about it either when I think

00:51:23

we've been treated unfairly or I think

00:51:25

there's a principle that hasn't been

00:51:26

held up. Um, and I'm kind of a principal

00:51:29

fairness kind of person at my heart, you

00:51:30

know. So, I sort of sometimes you can

00:51:32

react to things um, personally about the

00:51:34

media, but I I try and, you know, I try

00:51:36

and take all questions. I try and, you

00:51:38

know, patiently explain what what I

00:51:39

think's going on and give context for

00:51:41

stuff because you do need our media to

00:51:43

function well in order to get the

00:51:45

message out to people. And that can be a

00:51:47

real challenge. It can be a real

00:51:48

challenge. Um, but also there's other

00:51:50

ways to talk directly to people. I've

00:51:51

had the best conversations, for example,

00:51:53

on mental health on the rock, uh, with

00:51:55

the team there, cuz those guys really

00:51:57

get it. They really understand Bryce and

00:51:59

and and Rod and all the team, you know,

00:52:00

they they really have done some amazing

00:52:02

work on mental health. I've had high

00:52:04

quality conversations on the rock, able

00:52:06

to talk to 250,000 people about why, you

00:52:09

know, what we're going to do in mental

00:52:10

health. Um, you know, so there's there's

00:52:12

other ways to get messages out as well.

00:52:13

But yeah, the media can, you know, it's

00:52:15

one of the it's it's it's a you know,

00:52:18

it's something having been in politics

00:52:19

for four years, um, you know, when

00:52:21

you're standing in a scrum where, you

00:52:22

know, people just firing random

00:52:24

questions at you and sometimes there's a

00:52:26

bit of group think where they all get on

00:52:28

one issue and you're going, "Well,

00:52:29

actually, I'm not sure that's what New

00:52:30

Zealanders are really focused on right

00:52:32

now." Um, they're really struggling

00:52:33

getting through from paycheck to

00:52:34

paycheck, trying to get through their,

00:52:36

you know, grocery shop each week. Why

00:52:38

don't we talk about what we're going to

00:52:39

do to fix that problem? um rather than a

00:52:41

process story or a gotcha story around

00:52:44

the inner workings of parliament or

00:52:46

political piece. You know, I just I

00:52:48

think I think they do a really important

00:52:49

job and but it's also I think it's

00:52:51

really important to it's why I get out

00:52:53

of Wellington pretty quickly each week

00:52:54

is because I you know yesterday I was in

00:52:56

Gisbon and Hawks Bay, right? You know,

00:52:58

when you're talking to people there

00:52:59

sometimes the conversation we've been

00:53:01

having in Wellington isn't that relevant

00:53:02

to what's going on in their life. you

00:53:04

know, what we were trying to do

00:53:05

yesterday was get 149 houses built um

00:53:07

for for for solo moms that need homes

00:53:10

and uh good communities around them and

00:53:12

that was pretty exciting. That's what

00:53:13

you really enjoy about the job. Um so

00:53:16

yeah, so yeah, the media is what it is

00:53:18

and they've got a job to do and my my

00:53:20

thing is um I I think every politician

00:53:22

if you spoke to you former prominence as

00:53:24

well, they would say, you know, they

00:53:26

don't always agree with it, but um me

00:53:28

winging about a compliment doesn't come.

00:53:30

Suck it up, buttercup. you you kind of

00:53:31

have to because actually it's like I say

00:53:33

to my team they can often get bit out of

00:53:35

shape about how they think we're being

00:53:36

treated or not treated fairly or

00:53:38

whatever but it's like guys when you're

00:53:40

playing game of rugby if you've got a

00:53:41

bad riff you've got to find a way to win

00:53:43

you know and win ugly win nice but you

00:53:45

got to find a way to win and so don't

00:53:47

complain about the ref you know oh what

00:53:49

about um speaking of media there was

00:53:50

that interview with um the Hosk a couple

00:53:52

of months ago one of your one of your

00:53:55

one of your team u resigned um Mike

00:53:58

asked if you would have sacked him

00:53:59

otherwise And yeah, obiscated. Yeah.

00:54:02

What what were you doing? Were you just

00:54:04

like protecting him? You made a promise

00:54:05

to him that you wouldn't throw him under

00:54:06

the bus? No, I just I mean like that's a

00:54:08

that's a great Thank you for raising.

00:54:10

It's a great question to ask because you

00:54:12

know there's a really difficult

00:54:13

situation. We're a really hardworking

00:54:15

individual has done a great job as a

00:54:17

minister. Really passionate about what

00:54:19

he's doing. Was doing a really great job

00:54:22

and yep he made a mistake you know and

00:54:24

yep he fronted it. And you know let's be

00:54:26

clear the mistakes when you do them in

00:54:28

politics they're all public. everybody

00:54:29

sees it. Uh it's quite a high bar. Uh

00:54:32

and he came to a decision and came to me

00:54:34

and said, "Look, I think I need to

00:54:36

resign over this issue." And I said, "I

00:54:38

think you do, too. And I think that's

00:54:39

appropriate that you do so." So, I just

00:54:42

didn't want to put the boot in, frankly,

00:54:44

because again, it's part of, you know,

00:54:46

ministers are human, right? We're all

00:54:47

human. Prime Minister are human. You all

00:54:49

have feelings. You all have families.

00:54:51

You have friends. Um yep, you you you

00:54:53

know, you [ __ ] something up. You made a

00:54:55

mistake. uh and you know do you really

00:54:58

need to sort of pile in is kind of how I

00:55:00

felt about it and rightly or wrongly

00:55:02

that's why you know when he kept asking

00:55:04

me the question would you ever have

00:55:05

fired him would you have fired him would

00:55:06

you have fired him well I just didn't

00:55:08

feel I I I probably answered it from a

00:55:10

human point of view of like is this

00:55:12

really what this individual needs right

00:55:13

now is to say the promised would have

00:55:15

fired you anyway you know um and so yep

00:55:18

I didn't probably get that one right I

00:55:20

should have answered more definitively

00:55:21

about it but uh and but it was actually

00:55:24

you get caught between in a human moment

00:55:26

of trying to care for the individual who

00:55:28

you actually have worked with and know

00:55:29

well and um yes has a different

00:55:31

personality but actually just generally

00:55:33

made a mistake right and it's taken

00:55:34

responsibility for it and do they really

00:55:36

need me piling on but equally the media

00:55:39

you know quite rightly want to know well

00:55:40

would you have fired him or not when

00:55:42

when Mike asked the same question in a

00:55:44

different way the fourth time why why

00:55:46

didn't you just throw your mate under

00:55:47

the bus well as as I said because that's

00:55:49

the dissonance that you have inside

00:55:50

right yeah you're the big dog yeah I am

00:55:52

yeah I am and I and and the answer is

00:55:53

yes I I would have because it was um it

00:55:56

was a was a was an issue that I felt was

00:55:58

inappropriate and it would have led to

00:56:00

that. But the point was um I'm just

00:56:02

trying to explain to you how in the

00:56:03

moment in that question and the morning

00:56:06

was very generous if you stay maybe

00:56:08

loyalty to a fault some might say well I

00:56:10

just think I got it wrong you know I

00:56:11

could have been more definitive and and

00:56:12

and I could have answered that much

00:56:14

better. Uh but the point was uh I was

00:56:17

trying to you there's a human moment to

00:56:19

these things and and I get it and

00:56:20

politics is pretty brutal sometimes and

00:56:22

um but I still think people are human.

00:56:24

Yeah. Um just back up to something you

00:56:26

said before. You mentioned the rock and

00:56:28

you gave them some flowers for their

00:56:29

work around mental health which is welld

00:56:30

deserved. How's how's your mental health

00:56:32

been? Good. Good. I think you know

00:56:34

because I sort of came as I said to you

00:56:36

earlier with a mom who was always asking

00:56:37

you how are you feeling? You know what

00:56:39

what's going on for you and someone I

00:56:41

could always process and talk with as

00:56:43

well and dad's the same. Um, uh, I I

00:56:46

think genuinely I've leared to sort of I

00:56:48

genuinely was I was really lucky I had

00:56:50

some of that equipment on board before

00:56:51

it was a popular thing, not a popular

00:56:53

thing before we talked about it as

00:56:54

openly as we do now. When you and I came

00:56:57

through, like it was a lot of stigma

00:56:58

around mental health. And I, you know,

00:57:00

John Kerwin's a good friend. I often

00:57:02

just say to him, mate, you know, the

00:57:03

work that you've done to take that

00:57:04

stigma away, now our question and

00:57:07

conversation is about access for

00:57:08

services and support for mental health.

00:57:10

So I've also read a lot about um you

00:57:14

know mental health and and and you have

00:57:16

to know yourself really well right and I

00:57:18

think people go through life often not

00:57:19

knowing themselves at a at a really deep

00:57:22

level as to when they are under pressure

00:57:25

and um when those cracks are appearing

00:57:28

and you know in a job like this you know

00:57:29

with a huge pressure and huge um uh

00:57:32

stress uh applied cracks appear right

00:57:35

and and you know you know everyone's

00:57:37

personality is under pressure you know

00:57:39

the cracks uh appear and um for me I've

00:57:42

just learned to process as I go. So for

00:57:44

me, you know, as I said, it is little

00:57:46

things like I have to stay really

00:57:48

balanced in those four different

00:57:49

energies, you know, um you know, when I

00:57:51

hang out with my friends on a weekend,

00:57:53

you know, we don't talk politics, you

00:57:54

know, we just we're just doing life

00:57:56

together with all its ups and downs. You

00:57:57

know, I've got a good group of friends,

00:57:59

my brothers, my family um as well, uh

00:58:02

that we just sort of do life with. So I

00:58:03

feel like I'm No, I feel like I um can

00:58:07

can process it quite well. Um, I don't

00:58:10

mean that to sound arrogantly at all cuz

00:58:11

I know it's it's difficult for people,

00:58:13

but there is routines that you have like

00:58:15

I know I need to socialize with friends

00:58:18

and family because that fills me up, you

00:58:20

know, um there's a lot of asks of you

00:58:22

where you're giving out a lot, but how

00:58:24

do you fill up the bottle uh as Paul

00:58:26

Keing would say and actually sort of um

00:58:28

fill it up with just life, you know, and

00:58:31

and positivity and stuff and so hanging

00:58:33

out with the kids um cranking up the

00:58:36

music and doing silly dances in the

00:58:38

kitchen and you know, all that stuff is

00:58:40

sounds frivolous, but it actually is

00:58:41

part of managing energy, you know. When

00:58:44

was the last time you cried?

00:58:46

Uh, are you an emotional guy or Yeah.

00:58:50

Yeah. Um, yeah, I was I get moved by

00:58:53

quite a lot of things actually. You

00:58:54

know, I found myself, you know, feeling

00:58:56

quite emotional yesterday. I was with um

00:58:58

three young people who'd come from some

00:59:00

pretty difficult circumstances and had

00:59:03

actually been come through a trades

00:59:05

program that had got them into a Robin

00:59:06

is that this 18-year-old kid was telling

00:59:08

me his story. I was thinking, "Man, I'm

00:59:10

so proud of you for how you've turned

00:59:12

your life around and and you know, these

00:59:14

guys telling me their quite horrific

00:59:15

stories. I found the abuse in care

00:59:18

really hard, you know, really difficult.

00:59:19

I read every single page of those

00:59:21

reports. I read the um case studies,

00:59:24

really harrowing accounts, you know, I

00:59:26

was crying most of the time I was

00:59:27

reading that um as you would expect. So,

00:59:29

no, I I think it's important you don't

00:59:31

hide your emotions and I don't it's not

00:59:33

something you can bottle up, you know. I

00:59:34

think you just have to be have to you

00:59:36

know you you should you should feel

00:59:38

emotions you know I think it's important

00:59:40

to feel you know they're not just

00:59:41

thinkers they're feelers as well.

00:59:43

Yeah that's great. Yeah I mean we know

00:59:46

that vulnerability is now like a

00:59:47

superpower and it's not a weakness and

00:59:49

stuff but is it possible to have

00:59:50

vulnerability and be a strong leader at

00:59:52

the same time? Yeah I think it is. I

00:59:54

think um you know you'll have people

00:59:57

when you are you know as a politician I

00:59:58

think there's people feel if you are

01:00:00

vulnerable it's going to be used against

01:00:01

you and you know in our in our podcast

01:00:04

today I probably talked about things and

01:00:05

whether you know people decide to

01:00:06

politicize that or not but actually it's

01:00:08

about being human and we're actually all

01:00:10

humans as well and um you know whether

01:00:12

it's Chris Hipkins or just or John Key

01:00:14

or Bill English or myself you know we're

01:00:16

all people with you know feelings as

01:00:18

well so I think um yeah I think being

01:00:20

vulnerable is really important. Yeah.

01:00:22

Hey this has been great today. Just

01:00:24

before we go, um, my show is sponsored

01:00:26

by the Generate Kiwi Saver scheme. So,

01:00:28

they they've given me $500 to give to

01:00:31

you to give to charity. Oh, awesome.

01:00:33

What What your There's so many of that

01:00:36

you could support. Yeah. Um um I think

01:00:39

um yeah there's I'd love to think about

01:00:42

where I would like to direct that

01:00:43

because I know there's a number of

01:00:44

places that I would like to think about

01:00:45

that a little bit more purposefully. But

01:00:47

um there's some incredible charities

01:00:49

doing some amazing work and in fact I'm

01:00:50

trying as a government to make sure that

01:00:52

we work with many of the community

01:00:53

organizations and get the money out them

01:00:55

to actually get to the people that

01:00:57

desperately need it. But um if you if

01:00:59

you don't mind, I would really like to

01:01:00

think about how I can make that

01:01:01

difference because there's there's a

01:01:01

number that come to mind, but I know

01:01:03

there are some that $500 would make a

01:01:04

big difference to. Okay, couple of quick

01:01:06

questions from Generate. What's the best

01:01:07

thing about being a Kiwi? Um, I think um

01:01:11

the best thing about being a Kiwi is

01:01:13

that we can, you know, we've got

01:01:14

ambition and aspiration we can take on

01:01:15

the world and we're world beaters. We're

01:01:17

the best in the world. And some Kiwi

01:01:19

saver advice you'd give anyone? Um,

01:01:21

well, again, from my family point of

01:01:23

view, we've been quite hot on on

01:01:24

financial teaching our kids how to

01:01:26

manage money well. And it started when

01:01:27

they were five. They had four slotted

01:01:28

money boxes. Uh, that'd be an allowance,

01:01:31

$5 allowance. We do an assessment on a

01:01:33

Sunday night as to how well you had or

01:01:34

hadn't done. There might be a $350 week

01:01:36

because you didn't need to be the

01:01:37

dishwasher or the rubbish spin and uh as

01:01:39

a result you tax them. Yeah. Yeah. And

01:01:40

then they get their money in coins as

01:01:42

little chaps and then they have to work

01:01:43

out a quarter has to go to donate and

01:01:45

that goes to their sponsored kids on

01:01:46

World Vision. And then they have to make

01:01:48

a decision on save or invest or spend.

01:01:50

And if it goes into save invest, we

01:01:51

doubled it up. And that's how we taught

01:01:53

them when they were 5 to 10 as to how to

01:01:54

start to manage money. But I just think

01:01:56

um you know uh get get on top of your

01:01:59

budgets. It's why I've actually been

01:02:00

really hot on this because I want

01:02:01

financial literacy taught to our kids

01:02:03

because I don't think we do that very

01:02:05

well and people um with low incomes can

01:02:07

manage exceptionally well and people

01:02:08

with high incomes often spend their

01:02:10

money and are completely in debt. So,

01:02:12

it's about teaching get on a budget,

01:02:14

understand um what you're saving uh um

01:02:16

get your savings identified and then

01:02:18

just do it regularly and consistently

01:02:19

even when you don't have that much

01:02:20

money. I love that. Um and final one um

01:02:23

say it's your funeral and your family's

01:02:25

around. What three words would you like

01:02:27

people to describe you with? Um uh um uh

01:02:32

you know love of people care care of

01:02:34

care of family uh and people um uh uh

01:02:38

relaxed open um um and did his best you

01:02:41

know and I think that's sort of the

01:02:42

sentiments I often I often do think

01:02:44

about my later stage in life you know I

01:02:46

want to be able to put my arm around my

01:02:48

adult son and say I love you and know

01:02:50

that we're in good relationship you know

01:02:51

that's the stuff that I think will

01:02:52

matter I don't think being prime

01:02:53

minister of New Zealand or a successful

01:02:55

business guy or CEO will be actually

01:02:57

what they'll talk about at my funeral

01:02:58

the impact that I've had on people. Um,

01:02:59

and that's what I'd hope that would be

01:03:01

talked about. Yeah. You good at telling

01:03:02

them you love them? Absolutely. Every

01:03:04

day. Every day. You know, I was raised

01:03:06

that way with my own parents telling me

01:03:08

that they loved us and me do the same.

01:03:10

And I think sometimes you get to

01:03:11

funerals and it's all these things that

01:03:13

have been said about these people in

01:03:14

funerals that you say, "Man, I wish I'd

01:03:15

said that to people before they died."

01:03:17

And um, if you just knew how proud your

01:03:19

dad was of you or your mom was of you or

01:03:21

you know what people really thought

01:03:22

about you. And I often something

01:03:24

actually we talk my mom and dad I've

01:03:26

talked about a lot is you know growing

01:03:27

up is you should tell people how you

01:03:29

feel about them now while they're

01:03:30

living. Don't wait for a eulogy at a

01:03:32

funeral. It's it's too late at that

01:03:34

point in time. So um yeah live life now

01:03:36

and and tell people really how you think

01:03:38

about them and how you love them. Great

01:03:39

place to end it. Christopher Laxon,

01:03:40

Prime Minister number 42. Number 42.

01:03:43

Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.

01:03:44

Great mate. Thanks for having me on.

01:03:46

Really appreciate it.

Words per Minute Over Time