00:00:06
Willie Jackson, welcome to my podcast.
00:00:08
Dom, good to be here,
00:00:09
>> mate. It's great to have you here. We
00:00:10
were just discussing this. Um, I I feel
00:00:12
like I know you, but I think this is the
00:00:13
first time we've met.
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>> I think that's the thing when you're on
00:00:16
radio and and TV and all that sort of
00:00:18
thing where we're sort of circling
00:00:19
around each other all the time. E, and
00:00:21
you think you know people and you don't
00:00:23
sort of meet them really, you know.
00:00:24
>> Well, I'm so pleased to have you here on
00:00:26
the podcast today.
00:00:27
>> Congratulations with your podcast. I
00:00:29
think it's great. Um had a little bit of
00:00:31
a look at what you've been doing and
00:00:32
it's uh Yeah, you might be like Joe
00:00:34
Rogan become a billionaire. Is he a
00:00:35
billionaire or Rogan?
00:00:37
>> Probably. Yeah.
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>> Different um Yeah. Economies of scale.
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>> It is a different economy. He's
00:00:42
something else though, isn't he?
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>> Yeah. You are you a fan?
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>> Rogan. I like Rogan. Very good. Very
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fascinating because you know he started
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off he was a bit of a lefty then he got
00:00:51
sick of it and went a bit to the right
00:00:53
and he just wants he just wants to do
00:00:55
good broadcasting. And what I found
00:00:57
fascinating with him was, you know, he
00:00:59
he wanted to um he wanted to interview,
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you know, uh the different pre, you
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know, Biden and all that lot, but they
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didn't want to do it. So, he interviewed
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Trump and that, you know, and all of a
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sudden he's back, I could understand why
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he was talking about um Trump at least
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with being accessible. You know, Trump
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knows how to play the media. That's how
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it goes.
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>> Yeah. Carmela Harris I think um she
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wanted it done like on her terms that
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rather than being at his studio and she
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wanted it to be a 1-hour limit and he
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requests three hours put some
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stipulations in place.
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>> I mean Rogan Rogan's fascinating
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fascinating life and and what I like is
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you know he has such a wide range of um
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guests and so I I I don't get into the
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even though people will say oh you know
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he's just a lefty and all that. Not
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really. I I I'm I'm into you know I can
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I can work with the best of them who are
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on the right. I work with Tomi for
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years. Look at that. He was, hey, before
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he became the new Malcolm X, he was uh,
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you know, he was more down the Allen
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Duff track when I was when I when him
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and I were working together.
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>> What's your what is your take on on
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Trump? I suppose you you can say
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whatever you want because by by the time
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you are potentially back in back in in
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in government, um, he'll be gone.
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>> I I think it's well, I mean, you know,
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obviously I don't support Trump's
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politics, but I found it fascinating the
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way he got in. Um, I think he's a
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product of the Democrats, uh, you know,
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basically forgetting about the working
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class. He went in there and promised
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them thing, you know, like like people
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were just sick and tired of the
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establishment, whether it was
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Republicans or Democrats and Trump just
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turned the whole world over. You know, I
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was doing radio with Ellie Moore at the
00:02:32
time and 216 when he came on and yeah,
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it was 216, I think, when he first came
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in. Poor old Ellie, she was uh having a
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few tears, you know, and I was just
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fascinated by it all. I don't get all I
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don't get worried about it too much and
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but I understand you know cuz he's such
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a uh you know he's so anti- um I suppose
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anti- someone some would say anti-
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everything that uh that people like me
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stand for but I I I don't see it like
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that. I see it as half of America
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supported him and I respect that, you
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know, and and I keep saying to I I'd
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never vote for him, but I keep saying to
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my mates and all all the ones that hate
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him. Uh not everyone who supported Trump
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was a racist. Not everyone was uh you
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know, anti- the left. There were just so
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a lot of people who were forgotten in
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America. He tapped into that. So I think
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you just got to give credit where
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credit's due.
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>> What about his communication style? Is
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he a maniac? Well, yeah, but absolutely.
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But that's what works, doesn't it? You
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know, you you having been a former
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maniac on radio and very popular, you
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know, like ma maniacal works sometimes,
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you know. I mean, just look at some of
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our great broadcasters. Paul Henry,
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total maniac, you know, exceptional
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broadcaster. Holmes was the same, too. I
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knew Paul pretty well. He used to listen
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to our talk back all the time, you know,
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and uh I mean, jeez, he was off the
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edge, but brilliant. And I think that
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comes with the territory sometimes if
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you want to do really well in these sort
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of positions or in politics. I mean, you
00:04:01
never seen anything like Trump. It's
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just like, what the hell did we just
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see?
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>> It's chaotic.
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>> I watched him at the UN the other day
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and he just uh he just a rubbish night
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at the tongue, you know, for the young
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fellow who got sadly assessed.
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>> Charlie K.
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>> Charlie K. And just and he was saying,
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you know, Charlie and his wife, they're
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very forgiving. I'm not, you know, and
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this was at the funeral. I mean, just
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fascinating Trump. So, I'm no I'm no
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supporter, but I do understand um I
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understand the game.
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>> You mentioned the UN just a second ago.
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Uh just to time stamp this conversation,
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so we're recording this at the beginning
00:04:37
of October, and it was just a couple of
00:04:38
days ago that um your old mate Winston
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um spoke at the UN and said New Zealand
00:04:44
was um wasn't re recognizing Palestine
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as a as a state. Um yeah. What do you
00:04:50
think about that?
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>> Well, he's a total disgrace.
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>> Um, I wrote I did a Facebook on it. It
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went through the read through the roof.
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Uh, and of course all the New Zealand
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First crew jumped on. How can you do
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that? Talk about Winston. But I just
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think it's time for us to be courageous.
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That's uh that's I've always been a
00:05:05
Palestinian supporter always. But, you
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know, I I always understood the
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two-state solution, but it's not a
00:05:12
two-state solution. Now, I was I was
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surprised by Winston going down that
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track. Embarrassed though. you know, now
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we're trailing behind Australia, the
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Canada, the UK, and and very much in the
00:05:24
Trump position, aren't we? You know, and
00:05:26
when you look at the devastation and the
00:05:28
hell that we're seeing in Gaza, and I'm
00:05:31
no supporter of Hamas at all. I I
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absolutely condemn what they did, you
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know, but two wrongs don't make a a
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right, Dom. Two wrongs don't make a
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right. So, of course, I People go, "Oh,
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do you support terrorists?" No, I don't
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support terrorists, but I don't, you
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know, when you see that misery, we're
00:05:47
seeing it every day. It is a nightmare.
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It is s is so sad. Winston should have
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stood up. And it was a pretty um such a
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hugely disappointing decision from him.
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And I put a Facebook out and it just
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went went crazy. But I thought he would
00:06:02
have done better than that cuz look on
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the other side of things, he's a pretty
00:06:05
capable foreign minister, isn't he? You
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know, not bad for an 80year-old.
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>> Do you do you like the guy
00:06:10
>> Winston?
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>> Yeah.
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>> SADLY, YES.
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SADLY, YES. YES, I do like him. And uh
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sorry there my my Labour mates who might
00:06:20
be watching this today. I Well, I work
00:06:22
with Winston, you know. And uh it's a
00:06:24
funny story really because uh No, it's a
00:06:27
funny story because when I first went
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into parliament, I first stood in 96
00:06:32
and then in 99 JT and I stood and JT
00:06:35
used to hate him and he used to have
00:06:37
these effiges and and burn him and burn
00:06:39
him and all this sort of stuff. But I
00:06:41
watched him support the Do you remember
00:06:43
the tight five and all that sort of
00:06:44
stuff? Tohinar and all that lot. Yeah.
00:06:47
And I watched him support them and and
00:06:49
call all the he called the Labour Party
00:06:51
out and he called them racists and
00:06:53
everything and I thought, gee, there's
00:06:54
something to this guy. And then they
00:06:57
betrayed Winston and and and I thought,
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huh? Then they they went and did a deal
00:07:02
with Jenny Shipley. Winston did the
00:07:04
course. They all got kicked out and he
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and he stayed in. So when I got in in
00:07:08
99, I thought, I'm going to get to know
00:07:10
Winston. So shook went and met, you
00:07:12
know, we had a bit of a catch up and uh
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yeah, sort of become mates over that
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time, you know, used to go out with him
00:07:18
to the Green Parrot and fascinating um
00:07:20
fascinating uh years. And then when I
00:07:22
was on radio, of course, he used to come
00:07:24
on with me on radio all the time. Every
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time he'd come on the uh the radio would
00:07:29
go crazy, talk back. They just loved him
00:07:31
on Talkback. So yeah, I do like him, but
00:07:33
but complex, you know, because uh you
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know, he can he's just, you know, he's
00:07:37
great company and then he comes out with
00:07:39
some of the most crackpot ideas, you
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know, like what's happening there and
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he's got this problem with New Zealand,
00:07:44
right? He doesn't want it to be called
00:07:45
Alti at all. I mean, for goodness sake,
00:07:48
cut it. Cut it out. Cut it out, Winston.
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You know, and he's got Shane Jones with
00:07:54
him. Shane, you know, I don't know if
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you know, is one of the best multil
00:07:56
language speakers in the country. And
00:07:58
old Shane Pussycat Jones doesn't say a
00:08:00
word, you know. Old Jonesy knows and and
00:08:03
Winston's going, "No, we're not a we are
00:08:05
new. We're both Winston. Cut it out."
00:08:08
So, no. Fascinating uh character. Of
00:08:10
course, I like him. But, you know, we
00:08:12
we'll have our battles and but you know
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those just bad that's that's what
00:08:15
happens. You have your battles. Doesn't
00:08:16
mean you have to all hate each other.
00:08:18
>> I I think one thing that um people love
00:08:20
about you is first of all, you're you're
00:08:21
bloody funny and you're very
00:08:22
charismatic, but also I don't know about
00:08:24
that. You you you say um you say exactly
00:08:26
what you think and you tell it like uh
00:08:28
how it is for Willie Jackson.
00:08:29
>> So we've established the um relationship
00:08:32
with Winston. What about some other
00:08:33
people? Seymour.
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>> What about Seymour?
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>> You like the guy?
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>> I don't know.
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>> I don't I don't I don't particularly
00:08:42
dislike him. It might be neutral. He's
00:08:44
just got so much on my nerves over the
00:08:47
last few years. You know, I did call him
00:08:48
a useless Maldy. You remember that?
00:08:51
Well, it wasn't actually that. was
00:08:52
actually a useless Mai advocate. That's
00:08:54
what I called him. And uh cuz he, you
00:08:56
know, he's so hopeless in terms of
00:08:58
advocating for Maldi. What disappoints
00:08:59
me with him is that him and I worked
00:09:01
together before, you know, like built a
00:09:03
school together in 2015, you know, and I
00:09:05
worked with him on the youth in Asia
00:09:07
stuff. So, you know, he's very capable,
00:09:09
but I I just think that his um treaty
00:09:12
stuff is out of control. Um he should
00:09:14
know better than that. Uh he uh you
00:09:17
know, I called him a liar in the house.
00:09:19
Doesn't mean I hate him or anything. Him
00:09:20
and I can see each other. We're quite
00:09:21
cordial to each other, you know, cuz I
00:09:24
I'll give it to him, you know, he he's
00:09:25
pretty capable, you know, but um yeah,
00:09:29
like I don't know. I've gone off him a
00:09:30
bit over the last couple to but but you
00:09:33
know, if we if I we run into each other,
00:09:35
I'm not the type to, you know, cuz he
00:09:37
has never abused me.
00:09:38
>> We we we attack each other in the house,
00:09:40
so we're cordial. He went over to Oxford
00:09:42
recently and I was in Oxford University
00:09:44
the year before. So, um, but fascinating
00:09:47
character, but you you can see the the
00:09:49
the people who he's got behind him. Um,
00:09:52
I think dangerous though, Dom, you know,
00:09:54
I think dangerous, and that's why I'm
00:09:56
I'm I'm really disappointed with him
00:09:57
because I think he encourages
00:09:59
um a group in the country that uh
00:10:03
there's there's obviously some good
00:10:05
people who follow Seymour. Let's let me
00:10:06
get that on the record. But there's an
00:10:08
ugly crew in this country that support
00:10:10
Seymour. He knows them, too. And that
00:10:13
ugly crew, they just hate people like
00:10:15
me. They hate my guts, you know. They uh
00:10:18
I've seen that for years. I see it on
00:10:19
Facebook. And they love Seymour. Now,
00:10:22
David probably wouldn't even, you know,
00:10:24
I don't think he'd even mix with these
00:10:25
sorts of people, but there's an ugly
00:10:28
ugly element in New Zealand who just
00:10:30
hate Maldi. They just hate us. That's
00:10:32
not the majority. Most Kiwis are good.
00:10:34
You know, when I'm out there, you know,
00:10:36
I enjoy New Zealanders. I'm proud of
00:10:38
Kiwis. Uh come here. I'm proud of you
00:10:40
and your ex. I'm good with you and the
00:10:42
exposes a je getting on well. Eh,
00:10:45
>> you got a business TOGETHER FOR
00:10:48
EVERYONE.
00:10:48
>> NO, NO, but I look at guys like you. I
00:10:50
look at the Sky TV team, you know, I was
00:10:52
I don't know if you saw they all into
00:10:53
the real Maldi and all that. That's the
00:10:55
I reckon that's the new New Zealand, you
00:10:57
see. And David is with through his idiot
00:10:59
treaty principles bill has encouraged
00:11:02
too many of this ugly mob to come on.
00:11:04
See, so see so he'll sit in here with
00:11:05
you and he'll go there's no partnership.
00:11:07
You know, you would have heard him
00:11:08
there. In fact, in fact, I saw somebody
00:11:10
sent me the cut. There's no partnership.
00:11:12
Well, there is cuz the judges said there
00:11:14
was 1987 and every prime minister's back
00:11:17
there. Why? Why are you so scared of a
00:11:19
partnership, David Seymour? You know, so
00:11:22
what you're doing is encouraging, as I
00:11:24
said, the ugliest, most racist mob in
00:11:26
the country. I know who this mob is, you
00:11:28
see, because they regularly send me
00:11:30
emails and all and they they hate me.
00:11:32
And I think, why do these people hate me
00:11:34
so much? I'm not a person like like I
00:11:37
can show you people who don't like park
00:11:39
hours.
00:11:40
I can tell you people who will say to
00:11:42
you, Dom, you're just a guest in this
00:11:43
country. Yeah. Like I want to be your
00:11:45
partner. I want to work with you. This
00:11:47
lot anyone like me who sort of just
00:11:50
advocates for Mai.
00:11:51
>> I'm a pro Mai person, but I'm a pro Kiwi
00:11:54
person. I support the working class,
00:11:55
too. Um, but they say, "Oh, no,
00:11:57
Jackson's dangerous. He actually wants
00:11:58
to take the whole country. He's a
00:12:00
racist. This is" And that's who David
00:12:02
encourages. And I and and that's why he
00:12:05
disappoints me. His treaty principles
00:12:06
bill. He says, "Well, he called me a
00:12:08
liar." That's because he was a liar. His
00:12:12
lie is this. He says that um I'm not li
00:12:15
He says, "I'm not lying about the treaty
00:12:16
principles. He wants to change the
00:12:18
treaty of of Wangi."
00:12:20
>> And then he says that he doesn't want
00:12:21
to. He wants to change it.
00:12:23
>> So that's someone who's telling lies,
00:12:24
you know, and I've been quite open about
00:12:26
it. He takes it on the chin. He can
00:12:28
handle it. But um you know, why change
00:12:30
something that's working? And and I
00:12:32
think if you you've traveled a bit, no
00:12:34
doubt, Dom, you come back to New
00:12:36
Zealand, you walk around. Yeah, it's
00:12:37
pretty good.
00:12:38
>> The relationship. Yeah, we're very
00:12:40
lucky. They're good relationships.
00:12:42
>> Keep and I I I reckon, Dom, that most
00:12:46
>> I think New Zealand's changed, you know,
00:12:48
as you said, as you found out, I'm 64. I
00:12:50
remember what it was like when I was 34,
00:12:52
you know, and it wasn't that bad then
00:12:54
either, but it's it's got a lot uh it's
00:12:56
got a lot better as people have started
00:12:58
to understand the treaty. A lot of our
00:13:00
kids park our kids and all that or
00:13:02
learning the real fabulous you know uh
00:13:05
you know I think the language is there
00:13:06
for everyone. I think maldi is there for
00:13:08
everyone. That's what partnership's all
00:13:10
about. And David doesn't want to go down
00:13:12
that track. I think it's because he's
00:13:14
he's two women hooked into his atlas
00:13:16
mates and uh rolling out their agenda or
00:13:19
something along those lines. But it's
00:13:20
really disappointing and discouraging I
00:13:23
suppose.
00:13:23
>> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. One
00:13:25
thing I've got from doing this podcast
00:13:27
for three and three and a half years now
00:13:28
is that when you're sitting this close
00:13:30
at a table across someone, it it's
00:13:32
generally impossible to dislike someone
00:13:34
up.
00:13:35
>> How you going to say you don't like me?
00:13:36
>> No, no, no. I'm saying anyone anyone
00:13:38
that's that's that's racist or says they
00:13:40
they hate Maldi. It's like a general
00:13:42
statement. There's so much um of the
00:13:44
Willie Jackson story to talk about and
00:13:46
I'm so excited to have you here unpack.
00:13:48
>> So Willie Jackson, who is he away from
00:13:51
the titles and the public roles? I just
00:13:54
I'm just a proud father and grandfather
00:13:56
and you know and uh um I love my kids
00:14:00
and mukapunas and uh yeah but it's um
00:14:04
it's a funny thing really we're talking
00:14:06
politics politics always with us e for
00:14:08
people like me but
00:14:09
>> but you know most of most of your you
00:14:13
know your mates and all that sort of
00:14:14
thing but like you Dom they're not
00:14:16
really polit they don't really you know
00:14:17
you just see people and you they're not
00:14:19
really into politics are you know I just
00:14:21
love um I love people. I enjoy people.
00:14:23
That's why I love media so much like
00:14:25
yourself.
00:14:26
>> Love radio, love TV. Um and I I used to
00:14:30
enjoy talkback. I mean, I was um doing
00:14:32
talkback for 10 217 like 10 years I did
00:14:37
talk back for. So talk back and I just
00:14:40
enjoyed it, loved it. So just I enjoy
00:14:42
people.
00:14:44
>> So you um grew up in Padidora?
00:14:46
>> Pida. Well, I we left Pyidora when I was
00:14:48
10.
00:14:49
>> Yeah. And you live lived in South
00:14:50
Oakland ever since?
00:14:51
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. South. Why do why do
00:14:52
you love South Oakland so much?
00:14:54
>> I love it because of real people, you
00:14:55
know. Um I was brought up on the I
00:14:58
suppose poor side of Maradi, you know,
00:15:00
like with state houses and same in
00:15:01
Puddere. We're in state houses and that
00:15:03
and uh um and but you know you you know
00:15:07
we had a good upbringing, you know. Um
00:15:10
but you know you're in when you're in
00:15:12
when we were in Portidua and when we
00:15:14
first came to Mangi you're in areas
00:15:15
where people don't have much money but
00:15:18
mom and dad were always they're good
00:15:19
good parents you know even though like
00:15:21
particular in Portidu you sort of we
00:15:24
were in the middle of blinking once were
00:15:25
warriors country sort of thing you know
00:15:27
you parties all around but we I was
00:15:29
lucky in terms of my upbringing and uh
00:15:32
what the the values instilled in me by
00:15:34
mom and dad. Yeah, it seemed like you
00:15:35
had really good parents. So, dad Bob was
00:15:37
a warie. U crazy good chess player.
00:15:40
>> Oh, yeah. Fabulous chess player.
00:15:41
>> Um and earned a degree at 40.
00:15:43
>> He did. He went to went to went to Yeah.
00:15:45
Well, he was a first language moldy
00:15:47
speaker. So, bombed at school and all
00:15:50
that and then came back and trained
00:15:51
himself and got himself a degree and
00:15:54
over five years between uh 40 and 45.
00:15:57
So, yeah, he um terrific and he was a
00:16:00
fabulous chess player. Pass he passed
00:16:01
that chess stuff on to my son who's a
00:16:03
bit of a gun. Uh, and I put my boy into
00:16:06
Kings College and uh, he he he was the
00:16:09
top chess player there. It was quite
00:16:11
funny because when we put him there,
00:16:12
we'd we'd um been speaking mildy to him
00:16:15
all his life. So, he went to Kings and
00:16:17
he was in the bottom class like cuz, you
00:16:20
know, he could, you know, his English
00:16:21
was okay, but he was always making
00:16:23
mistakes. Next minute he trots off to
00:16:25
the chess club and, you know, he can
00:16:28
beats everyone in chess and these
00:16:29
Chinese kids are going, "What class are
00:16:30
you in?" You know, I mean, these kids
00:16:32
are like the cleverest kids in the
00:16:34
country. And he's in the I said to him,
00:16:35
"Yeah, that's okay, son. You're in the
00:16:37
dumbest class, but you you'll beat them
00:16:38
all at chess." E. So, the old man is
00:16:40
funny that chess. I wish my boy had of
00:16:43
um uh because he was so good. He should
00:16:46
have I should have taken him out because
00:16:48
we've got one of our mates in parliament
00:16:50
who his name's escaped me. He's one of
00:16:52
our he's one of the best chess players
00:16:53
in the country. I should have taken him
00:16:55
to a top chess because he's
00:16:56
international chess master. Vernon.
00:16:58
Vernon Small, I think, isn't it? Yeah.
00:17:00
Vernon. Yeah. And uh um he's um
00:17:02
journalist, top journalist, great chess
00:17:04
player, but I wish I had have done that
00:17:05
with Boy because uh I would have liked
00:17:08
to have seen how far he would have went.
00:17:09
But yeah, the old man was, you know,
00:17:11
they all wies, you know, you know the
00:17:13
wolfies in those days, they only work
00:17:15
about two or three hours and then they'd
00:17:16
be playing chess and drafts and then
00:17:18
they best laboring job in the country.
00:17:21
>> That's where he cut his teeth on the
00:17:22
chessboard. And your mom June um New
00:17:25
Zealand's longest serving parole board
00:17:26
member.
00:17:27
>> Yeah.
00:17:27
>> Yeah. And um yeah actually
00:17:30
>> very humble very humble beginnings. So
00:17:32
um mom she was a cleaner to start off
00:17:34
with you know I said in parliament I
00:17:36
always when I when I first did spoke
00:17:38
there um I said my mom used to clean the
00:17:40
courts down there and she went from
00:17:42
cleaner to
00:17:43
>> oh she was we're very proud of her you
00:17:45
know CEO. She was top CEO parole board
00:17:47
member got a damehood.
00:17:49
>> Yeah. Yeah. I've got a photo here. This
00:17:51
is your mom. This is your mom getting um
00:17:53
>> damehood eh
00:17:54
>> damehood.
00:17:54
>> And I'm not into dame hoods. I told him
00:17:56
I told her I I told her to reject it,
00:17:58
but she told me to go jump in the lake
00:18:00
>> and go and hook up with my radical
00:18:02
relation. She said, "I love the queen
00:18:04
and if you don't like it, don't come
00:18:05
along."
00:18:06
>> But look how she's smiling in that
00:18:07
photo. It obviously means something to
00:18:09
her.
00:18:09
>> I was so proud. She was so proud of it.
00:18:11
Eh. Oh, no. I I I was I was look I
00:18:14
organized. We had 800 people there, you
00:18:16
know, John Banks and them all came. Len
00:18:18
Brown, everybody came along and because
00:18:19
it was a year of the mealy
00:18:21
>> and uh I was just very proud of her even
00:18:24
though as I said I'm not into damehoods
00:18:26
and knighthoods. I want us to do what
00:18:28
Helen Clark said once which was have our
00:18:30
own
00:18:31
>> have our own identity and all that but
00:18:33
uh
00:18:33
>> I mean she went from cleaner to um 20
00:18:37
years on the parole board. Man, it was
00:18:39
incredible and great CEO man. We had
00:18:41
some stories from her. So she saw the
00:18:42
worst of our society in many ways. Mom
00:18:46
always said
00:18:47
>> mom always said that that 99% of the
00:18:50
country is okay but there's a 1% that
00:18:53
you cannot turn around. You know there's
00:18:55
an evil side and she said son you just
00:18:58
can't turn them around. It's an evilness
00:18:59
that she said that it's almost hard to
00:19:01
describe. So but she always felt you
00:19:03
could turn around just about just about
00:19:05
anyone else.
00:19:06
>> I tell you we used to see every blink
00:19:08
and you wouldn't believe what we saw
00:19:10
when we were young. you know,
00:19:11
ex-murderers coming through the house
00:19:13
and they all used to bow their head to
00:19:15
mom, you know.
00:19:17
>> Did she have any sort of I don't know if
00:19:19
this is even a conversation you had, but
00:19:20
did she have any sort of perspective on
00:19:22
whether evil people are born or made? Um
00:19:25
they were they they she said it could
00:19:27
it's her view was they were made you
00:19:29
know like some some of them
00:19:31
>> you know you know if you're going to
00:19:33
treat someone like an animal
00:19:34
>> from the day they they they are born
00:19:37
>> then they're going to act like an animal
00:19:38
you know you know baby can't be born
00:19:42
evil. Yeah,
00:19:43
>> but the if the baby is treated like an
00:19:45
animal and she said some of the some of
00:19:47
these ones who are evil were a product
00:19:49
of evil, you know, and um you know, mom
00:19:53
was fascinating. We had um we had a guy
00:19:56
called um and I'll say his name, his
00:19:58
name was Les Green, and you should look
00:20:01
him up. And he was the um longest
00:20:04
serving uh one of the longest serving
00:20:06
prisoners in the country. He's like 28
00:20:09
28 years. Uh and anyway, Harle gets out
00:20:12
of prison and they also he was also one
00:20:14
of the most dangerous. Comes out of
00:20:16
prison. Nobody there's a big article you
00:20:18
should it's all over the listen listener
00:20:19
if you look back at his life. He's gone
00:20:21
now. Um he got out of prison. Nobody
00:20:24
wanted him there. Everybody was too
00:20:25
scared, right? What does mom do? Mom
00:20:27
says, "Oh, come and stay with us at the
00:20:28
Marai, you know." So mom brings him to
00:20:30
the Marai and then and he and he stays
00:20:33
with us. And then I says, "Oh, he was
00:20:35
pretty bad. Oh no, he was just a he was
00:20:37
just a robber. He just bank robbery.
00:20:39
very famous bank. She says, "Oh, okay.
00:20:41
All right." Then the police talked to me
00:20:42
and they go, "You know, your mom's got
00:20:43
that le." Yeah.
00:20:46
>> I shouldn't tell you this, I suppose.
00:20:49
>> No, no. Anyway, so these people talk to
00:20:52
me anyway.
00:20:53
>> No, it's it's painting a picture of who
00:20:54
your mom's like. It's obviously a lady
00:20:56
that could see good in anyway.
00:20:57
>> Well, anyway, these friends of mine,
00:20:59
they said I shouldn't have said, please,
00:21:00
but never mind. They said to me, you
00:21:02
know that Le Green, we don't have the
00:21:04
proof, but we think he's murdered about
00:21:05
seven or eight people, right? I says,
00:21:07
"What? His mom brought a murderer onto
00:21:10
the Mariah. And they go, "Well, we don't
00:21:12
have the proof." And so I go to mom. I
00:21:14
say, "Mom, what are you doing? We got
00:21:16
the Ker, we got the you got a murderer
00:21:18
down there." And she goes, "Oh, son. It
00:21:20
was it was Mr. Asia days." You know,
00:21:22
they just kill each other. You know, the
00:21:24
bad people and you know, like they all
00:21:26
they all they're terrible people. They
00:21:28
one shoots this one or one shoots that
00:21:30
one. Who cares? Like they never touch
00:21:32
the good people. And I don't know who I
00:21:35
don't know. I don't even want to know
00:21:36
about it. And I said, "So, we're going
00:21:37
to leave them there?" And she said,
00:21:38
"Yes, we're going to leave them there."
00:21:40
And oh, so it was she was so crazy. And
00:21:42
then one one I'll tell you, one
00:21:44
Christmas, one Christmas, she puts on a
00:21:46
party for all the judges, right? Because
00:21:49
she's she's the senior lady of the
00:21:50
parole board. Puts a party on at home
00:21:52
and mom's got everybody serve. Anyway,
00:21:54
she gets less green to be a waiter. So
00:21:57
he's
00:21:59
he's serving these judges, right? He's
00:22:01
serving these judges. And the judges are
00:22:04
looking at him thinking, "We know this
00:22:06
guy," you know, but and she go and she
00:22:08
made him dress up and Le goes around and
00:22:11
oh, it's incredible. And anyway, about a
00:22:14
week or two later, she the mom says,
00:22:16
"The judges remembered who my who my
00:22:18
waiter was."
00:22:20
I says, "Well, mom, you didn't break the
00:22:21
law. It was your home." You know, she
00:22:24
had Peter Sharp was there. And so De
00:22:26
Yeah. And um he was he was an incredible
00:22:30
um well, it was just an incredible
00:22:32
history. So he stayed at the Mariah a
00:22:33
few years, had a bit of a sad end. I had
00:22:35
to kick him off the Mariah when I when
00:22:37
I, you know, got a bit out of control
00:22:39
and he died on his own, but we gave him
00:22:40
support till the end, but
00:22:43
>> you know, the gangs came over when he
00:22:45
came over. They thanked us,
00:22:47
>> they thanked us for for taking him in,
00:22:49
and he actually didn't cause any
00:22:50
problems in all those all those years.
00:22:52
So,
00:22:53
>> uh, yeah, have a look up at his history.
00:22:55
That was quite a history. used to come
00:22:56
to Christmas and I tell you it's it's
00:22:59
amazing how people can turn their lives
00:23:00
around. Dom I I've seen mom did some
00:23:03
incredible things. You know I don't know
00:23:05
if you're I'll tell you one other story
00:23:06
before we move on. Um she she was she
00:23:09
was fearless. There was a terri terrible
00:23:12
um
00:23:14
No, I won't tell you that story. It's
00:23:15
probably too
00:23:17
No good
00:23:18
>> selfensoring. No, that's that's probably
00:23:21
too much. Mom wouldn't want me to tell
00:23:22
you that. But she she she's a person who
00:23:25
would go to bat for some of the worst
00:23:26
people
00:23:28
whether they were murderers, rapists,
00:23:29
and she'd go like when they were coming
00:23:31
out like she'd she'd say, "Keep them
00:23:32
in." When they'd come out, mom would go
00:23:34
to bed for them and say, "Let them out
00:23:37
now. Bring them to me." And mom would
00:23:39
and they'd go, "Oh, it's 3 months too
00:23:41
early, June. Never mind. Bring them out.
00:23:42
I need to I want to I want cuz if
00:23:44
they're coming back into society, I want
00:23:46
to get them right."
00:23:47
>> And so that's the sort of stuff she
00:23:49
would do. And she brought out, I tell
00:23:50
you, Dom, some of the worst rapists and
00:23:53
all that you would believe. Like, we
00:23:55
were we were nervous. They never
00:23:56
reaffended.
00:23:58
>> And and the the worst stuff for for us
00:24:00
was when she'd bring pedophiles onto the
00:24:02
Mariah. And I I I we were very angry
00:24:05
about that. We had a huge fight over
00:24:07
that one day. And she said, "Son, if I
00:24:10
don't do this, who looks after them?
00:24:14
>> I'm managing them. you they will not go
00:24:16
get step out
00:24:18
um out of line. So she cornered them off
00:24:21
and they never stepped down a line
00:24:23
because she said they step out of line,
00:24:25
they know what they'll get, you know,
00:24:27
and you know, stuff like that. Brave,
00:24:29
courageous, and uh proud of her work and
00:24:32
what she did, you know.
00:24:33
>> Yeah, I can tell, mate. I can tell.
00:24:34
That's really cool.
00:24:34
>> And you know, she got some of that
00:24:35
Alzheimer's at the end. Not a good way
00:24:37
for people to go, you know. Not
00:24:39
>> Yeah, you Yeah, you lost her on um March
00:24:41
28, 2022. So it's fairly fairly
00:24:44
recently. Yeah.
00:24:46
>> Yeah. It must have been difficult seeing
00:24:47
such a like a a proud a proud woman
00:24:49
decline with Alzheimer's
00:24:51
>> in the last couple of years particularly
00:24:52
when um you know she was so vivaceious
00:24:54
and I couldn't stop talking and
00:24:57
>> then all of a sudden no more
00:24:58
communication. It's one of the saddest
00:25:00
things you can see. You know it's like a
00:25:02
walking dead you know they're they're
00:25:04
alive but it's like they're living dead
00:25:06
almost you know. So how how many years
00:25:08
before that before her passing was your
00:25:10
proper lucid conversation with
00:25:11
>> it's funny really cuz she got it she was
00:25:13
like 82 83 when she died she first
00:25:15
started contracting at around 70 69 70
00:25:18
she was actually all right till about 78
00:25:20
79 you know she yeah she was losing her
00:25:23
her her her she she she didn't know you
00:25:26
know her short-term stuff was gone but
00:25:28
pretty good and then in the last couple
00:25:29
of years full communications just shut
00:25:32
down so very sad but that's lifetime you
00:25:34
know and a lot of people have to go
00:25:35
through that
00:25:37
Yeah. I I've heard you talking about
00:25:38
your school years and uh you said you
00:25:40
were a failure at school.
00:25:41
>> Um
00:25:43
yeah. How did that label affect the the
00:25:45
way that you saw yourself at the time?
00:25:47
Obviously you had smart jeans. Like your
00:25:49
parents your parents were smart people,
00:25:51
right?
00:25:51
>> Yeah. I mean I was um
00:25:54
at school I was just I I could talk, you
00:25:57
know. I was actually I used to win
00:25:58
speech competitions and all that. So I
00:26:00
said, but I I'm one of those people who
00:26:02
was hopeless, you know, like I'd go on
00:26:04
the exam and for some reason something
00:26:06
used to happen. I don't know why. I used
00:26:08
to be in some of the top classes and
00:26:09
that and I just uh some something hit
00:26:12
me. I I was able to control it later on,
00:26:15
but when I was like 15 cuz those were
00:26:17
the days you're you you're fair bit
00:26:20
younger than me, eh?
00:26:22
>> I'm 52.
00:26:23
>> So you're 10 years.
00:26:24
>> I remember school. You talking about
00:26:25
school and second year fifth and did you
00:26:26
do all that?
00:26:27
>> 100%. It was the worst fear ever being
00:26:29
held back again.
00:26:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, so I couldn't h I
00:26:31
couldn't handle it, you know, and um and
00:26:33
so I just s but I sort of always thought
00:26:36
I'll work this out, you know, when I
00:26:37
came out of when I came out of school
00:26:39
and all that went into the um went into
00:26:41
the works and all that cuz I had a uh um
00:26:44
you got to have a bit of a plan e in
00:26:45
life. So I thought I'm not going to just
00:26:47
stay on the chain and and and work on
00:26:49
the chain and all that sort of stuff.
00:26:51
I'll um I'll find a way out. And uh uh
00:26:54
because you know in those days if you
00:26:55
didn't get your school C or UE you going
00:26:57
straight to the factory or you know you
00:26:59
didn't you didn't get into any of the
00:27:00
sort of flash jobs that were going but I
00:27:03
just think with you you got to have a
00:27:05
plan. It's funny you talk about school
00:27:07
in the Labour Party is only Damian O'
00:27:10
Connor and myself with only two without
00:27:12
degrees. Two old buggers. You know you
00:27:14
know Damian don't you? Yeah he's he's
00:27:16
pretty neat old Damian.
00:27:17
>> So when when did you leave school?
00:27:19
>> I thought I was 17.
00:27:20
>> 17. Okay. And you went straight straight
00:27:22
to AFCO or something?
00:27:23
>> Yeah, I went into a factory and I went
00:27:25
went and worked on a farm with my
00:27:26
grandparents for a year, then came back
00:27:28
and worked in the freezing works after
00:27:29
that when I was 18. Yeah. And seven
00:27:32
years in the works. Yeah.
00:27:33
>> Yeah. What was that like? I've heard you
00:27:34
describe um the freezing works as
00:27:36
hellish.
00:27:37
>> Oh, it's hellish if you worked on the
00:27:39
chain. And what's the like you do, you
00:27:42
know, you're killing the sheep and
00:27:44
cutting their throat and you might have
00:27:45
one um job and you've got what your one
00:27:47
job is one cut all day with a knife and
00:27:50
that's it. You know, you just have one
00:27:51
cut, one and you imagine doing that like
00:27:53
like that for six hours a day or
00:27:55
something. So that you know like that
00:27:57
was like when I first got started
00:27:59
working on the chain and all that I
00:28:00
thought oh bucket this I I know how to
00:28:03
talk. So I I used to go to the meetings
00:28:04
and I saw the you know the union stuff
00:28:07
started happening and um I thought oh I
00:28:10
can do that and so I ended up being a
00:28:12
delegate then I ended up being a union
00:28:14
president and when you're a union
00:28:15
president you you're not really you
00:28:16
don't have to work on the chain that
00:28:17
much you know you have to you're running
00:28:19
meetings you all got so I found a way
00:28:20
off you know and then I became a sort of
00:28:22
full-time union official after that.
00:28:24
Yeah.
00:28:24
>> Yeah. And this this is really young too
00:28:26
like 21 years old.
00:28:27
>> 21 how how was that like how was that
00:28:29
like did you have imposter syndrome? Did
00:28:31
did you find older people you were
00:28:32
dealing with struggled to take you
00:28:34
seriously being
00:28:36
>> basically a kid?
00:28:37
>> Yeah. Well, no, not really because I
00:28:39
used to st cuz I I I did a you know I
00:28:41
did a lot of reading and I used to in
00:28:43
the works you got to become a man pretty
00:28:45
quickly particularly if you um if you're
00:28:48
fronting for men. So I I I was a
00:28:50
delegate for about 60 people and and
00:28:53
there few women too but mainly men. Um I
00:28:56
was a delegate for 60 men and then I was
00:28:58
uh then when I was a president I was a
00:29:00
president for about 3 400 people and uh
00:29:02
no they took me seriously because I I I
00:29:05
was um I sort of dad had brought us up
00:29:07
in politics and I knew about good
00:29:09
principles and values and they quite
00:29:11
liked it and I was moldy too and and in
00:29:14
those days mainly the union officials
00:29:15
were all PA and so all the Maldis liked
00:29:18
it and the Pacifica liked it. So it was
00:29:19
a real honor and and I did I was in the
00:29:22
works for seven years. and I was
00:29:23
official for about 5 years and then I
00:29:25
started I I walked worked into the went
00:29:28
into the the unions with my uncle Sid
00:29:30
Jackson. I don't know if you remember
00:29:31
him but uh started working with him and
00:29:33
then went into the service workers union
00:29:35
with Mark Gosh and and so I was a union
00:29:37
official for about 17 years. Yeah.
00:29:40
>> You you were sort of destined for a life
00:29:42
in advocacy somehow, weren't you?
00:29:45
>> With your family family background.
00:29:46
Well, I yeah, I suppose so because you
00:29:48
know um dad was a strong advocate, but
00:29:50
my uncle Sid Jackson was the leader of
00:29:53
the protest movement. He was the leader
00:29:54
of Natamau and and his wife uh um was
00:29:58
Auntie Hana. Uh Jackson, this young Hana
00:30:01
who's in parliament now is named after
00:30:03
her. That's that's her nanny and she's a
00:30:06
she's really lovely Hannah. And uh
00:30:09
>> um I told her how close I was to her
00:30:11
nanny. So um they were my um you know
00:30:14
uncle was a was my role model and then
00:30:16
my other uncle was u guy called Moana
00:30:19
Jackson I don't you heard of him he was
00:30:20
a top legal Maldi advocate in the
00:30:23
country as my father's other brother so
00:30:25
they were they were strong advocates for
00:30:28
Maldi and so from from a very young age
00:30:31
I've um I I really do enjoy and and find
00:30:35
it a privilege to advocate for people
00:30:36
when you when you when I was union
00:30:38
president you know I was always
00:30:39
negotiating wages is um plus I used to
00:30:42
manage a lot of the boys uh wages cuz
00:30:45
they had no idea, you know, they'd go
00:30:47
and spend them in the pub and all that.
00:30:49
So the girlfriends and wives used to
00:30:50
ring me.
00:30:51
>> Is this when you got like a brown
00:30:52
envelope with the cash?
00:30:54
>> And I used to say, right, no, I used to
00:30:56
do the budgets and I go, "Right, just
00:30:58
see." And I'd go and tell them, "Right,
00:30:59
you're not getting a full wage this
00:31:01
week." And you know, so so the wives
00:31:03
would get the cuz they what you know,
00:31:05
sometimes I get flinging phone calls.
00:31:07
Well, I got no money cuz they spend
00:31:09
always spend the money down the path.
00:31:10
So, you know, it just was a good way of
00:31:12
life for me, you know, in terms of
00:31:14
managing people's lives, good training.
00:31:17
Uh, and um, as well as that, you know,
00:31:20
you're negotiating, you're advocating,
00:31:22
you're speaking at big meetings. Um and
00:31:24
you you also you have to be um you have
00:31:27
to be very strong too because we used to
00:31:29
have strikes and those were the days
00:31:30
when we'd have we wouldn't have one week
00:31:32
strikes we'd have five six week strikes
00:31:34
you know and that's hard because you
00:31:36
have to manage faro you have to manage
00:31:37
families and uh you have to work make
00:31:39
sure everyone's eating and all that sort
00:31:41
of stuff so for me it was sort of
00:31:43
impeccable training for later in life
00:31:45
you know and uh when I left the work so
00:31:48
I continued in that with the in you know
00:31:50
with the union organizing
00:31:52
>> as well as doing lots of other things,
00:31:54
you know, I got that's
00:31:55
>> so so many other things. Yeah. Freeze
00:31:57
freezing worker, um bouncer,
00:31:59
broadcaster, sports broadcaster, band
00:32:02
manager, all black manager, Frank Buns,
00:32:05
uh trade union leader, urban moldy
00:32:08
advocate, politician. Um yeah, out of
00:32:10
all those, did I miss anything? Did that
00:32:12
sort of cover take it all off?
00:32:13
>> Oh, we had a I had a record label.
00:32:15
>> Did you?
00:32:16
>> Yeah. Tata Records with a guy called Tim
00:32:18
Moon. I don't know if you've heard of
00:32:19
Tim Moon. We did um so we had we our
00:32:22
label was the u uh most well-known
00:32:24
indigenous label in the country. Uh we
00:32:27
did the once a warrior soundtrack which
00:32:29
was fantastic for the for the movie once
00:32:31
a warriors and had tamarinder and all
00:32:33
them in there and you would have you you
00:32:35
would have heard Tim and them singing
00:32:36
once a time Mr. Wolf and all that sort
00:32:38
of stuff. So south side of Bombay well
00:32:40
they were southside part of my crew you
00:32:42
know they were I tour managed them and
00:32:44
all that sort of stuff. So that was a
00:32:45
great time too looking after um I loved
00:32:48
the maldi music you know and I saw so
00:32:50
much talent in in those days but doing
00:32:52
once a warrior soundtrack was one of the
00:32:54
great things I was funny actually I was
00:32:56
talking to someone about it and and Tim
00:32:59
used to live by us he was he him and Kim
00:33:02
he was with a woman called Kim will
00:33:03
remember when the cats away.
00:33:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. So they they live they got a
00:33:06
son James together.
00:33:07
>> That's right. That's right. So I was
00:33:08
with my first wife and we were two
00:33:10
houses three houses away. So we were all
00:33:13
mates. We all worked on radio together.
00:33:14
And when I was bouncing, um Tim used to
00:33:16
come over and uh spa with us. Couldn't
00:33:19
find his way out of a paper bag. And
00:33:23
hopefully he doesn't hear this. But he's
00:33:25
my good mate, Tim. And I couldn't fight
00:33:27
to save himself. Anyway, he said he was
00:33:29
going to be Jake the M, you see. So he
00:33:31
used to last about 10 seconds when we
00:33:33
because we used to cuz when you're
00:33:34
bouncing, you have to we used to train
00:33:36
all the time at home because we you had
00:33:38
to particularly in South Oakland. And uh
00:33:41
um and yeah, Tim would drop drop him and
00:33:43
we'd go he'd say, "Yeah, I'm going to do
00:33:45
this. Jake the master." We go, "You're
00:33:46
too small for that. Cut it out." Well,
00:33:48
when he did it,
00:33:50
>> wasn't he fantastic? We were just he
00:33:52
wasing it was so we were so proud of
00:33:55
him, you know, and um
00:33:57
>> I think what made it even more
00:33:58
surprising was it was just off the back
00:34:00
of Shortland Street as Dr. Roberta. So
00:34:02
it was like the just this transformation
00:34:04
that just caught everyone off and and
00:34:06
they did the angles right and it was it
00:34:08
was it was 94. It's incredible really.
00:34:11
And um a lot of us of course really
00:34:14
hated once we're warriors to see like we
00:34:16
were sort of we thought it was um
00:34:19
you know being younger I suppose we
00:34:21
thought it showed all the worst aspects
00:34:23
of Tia Maldi so we pro protested on it
00:34:26
and Lee Tamahi we said a seller and Tim
00:34:29
was saying what are you doing you know
00:34:31
what was this you know we're just acting
00:34:33
bro you know and it was really quite
00:34:35
funny and but as I got older I thought
00:34:37
you know artists have got to do what
00:34:38
they got to do you know And uh you know
00:34:41
and I'm really proud of Tim and proud of
00:34:43
Cliff Curtis, you know, uh seeing seeing
00:34:46
what they've done and and you just got
00:34:48
to like when I was younger I I think um
00:34:51
I was I think I was probably too
00:34:53
judgmental because although we loved Tim
00:34:55
but we just thought once were warriors
00:34:57
like God could anything have gone did
00:34:59
was there anything positive about that
00:35:01
family? you know, they had child
00:35:03
molestation, alcoholism, drug dealing,
00:35:05
everything, you know,
00:35:06
>> and uh um uh and so and and it hit us a
00:35:11
lot because, you know, some of us, we
00:35:13
were living right there, you know, like
00:35:15
they they shot the Onceful were warriors
00:35:17
pub scene like less than a kilometer
00:35:19
from our house, you know, it was just
00:35:21
around the corner. Some of my mates who
00:35:23
were bouncing were in the pub scene were
00:35:24
in the pub scenes, you know, they were
00:35:26
got part. So it it was it was uh it was
00:35:30
a it was a funny time. I was bouncing
00:35:32
for about about six, seven years. Yeah.
00:35:35
>> You enjoy that?
00:35:36
>> Yeah, I loved it because um
00:35:37
>> What did you learn about people?
00:35:39
>> Cuz you Well, you learn a lot about
00:35:40
people, you know. You know, but but you
00:35:42
also got to look after people, too.
00:35:44
People are allowed to have a drink, you
00:35:45
know. Uh and uh um and I worked um in
00:35:50
South Oakland with one of the pubs I
00:35:53
worked in was called the St. George. was
00:35:54
probably the roughest pub along with a
00:35:56
flying jug in East Tamaki, you know, in
00:35:59
St. George.
00:35:59
>> There was a pub called the Flying Jug.
00:36:01
>> Flying Flying Jug.
00:36:02
>> It's a bad name.
00:36:03
>> That's exactly how it was. And that that
00:36:06
and that pub in my pub, that pub in my
00:36:09
pub, St. George, St. George 86. You
00:36:12
walked in there, you see if you what you
00:36:15
saw in Once were Warriors, you see three
00:36:16
times when you walked into into this is
00:36:19
an 86. It was like once we were warriors
00:36:21
times five, you know, like seven of us
00:36:23
used to work the bar, seven of us and
00:36:26
like three or four fights a night like
00:36:28
cuz drugs going around everywhere. Just
00:36:30
incredible. Um, but you know, I I did it
00:36:33
because I was working in the freezing
00:36:35
works and being young, I wanted to make
00:36:36
as much money as as I could and I just
00:36:39
and plus I love play with the guys and
00:36:42
we played league and all that sort of
00:36:44
stuff and uh and you learn about people.
00:36:46
Funny thing, I was at this tongue the
00:36:47
other day and I ran into some people um
00:36:50
who were um from those days and they
00:36:52
said, "Oh, you you were with our brother
00:36:54
and and I said, "Yeah, your brother got
00:36:55
killed, one of their who who was with
00:36:57
us. He got killed in the car accident
00:36:59
and he was one of the bouncers with me
00:37:01
when I was young, you know." So, those
00:37:02
were good days. I mean, I did it from
00:37:04
about 86 to I don't know about 92, 93.
00:37:08
Was was your job as a bouncer to um like
00:37:11
fight or was it more just to like charm
00:37:13
people over and sort of talk them down
00:37:15
if they're if they're on the cusp of
00:37:17
fighting?
00:37:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean that's your
00:37:18
first job is to talk them talk them
00:37:20
down.
00:37:20
>> Well, you would have been good at that,
00:37:21
I reckon.
00:37:22
>> Oh, I I thought so. Well, that's what
00:37:25
that's why I did it, too.
00:37:26
>> You still got all your teeth.
00:37:27
>> Well, no. That's one of the things I did
00:37:29
was was cuz most of the boys just
00:37:31
scrappers, you know. So I thought, "Oh,
00:37:34
I'll make sure I get a good uh cut here
00:37:36
because they can't talk. They can only
00:37:38
fight." So I could um I used to go in
00:37:40
and try and negotiate before anything
00:37:43
would blow up and and I said, "Do you
00:37:44
really want to fight my boys?" You know,
00:37:46
like I used to have Tong and Boxing
00:37:48
Champion and you know, and every like we
00:37:51
had like the best team around, you know,
00:37:54
and I had boxing exboxing champs working
00:37:56
with me and I said, you know, and so
00:37:58
most of the time, most of the time, not
00:38:01
all the time, but most of the time you
00:38:02
could talk your way out of it.
00:38:04
But it was a good for me. It was a good
00:38:06
time because I was head security because
00:38:08
you know they've they needed they needed
00:38:10
someone who could talk so I could I I so
00:38:12
I used to lead um and you know you get
00:38:15
an odd punch up but most of the time it
00:38:17
was pretty good.
00:38:18
>> And the the band management stuff you
00:38:20
were um the manager of Moana and the M
00:38:22
hunters. Moana uh yeah we did you guys
00:38:25
marry and then you became the band
00:38:27
manager or
00:38:28
>> No we were married uh early earlier.
00:38:30
>> Yeah. Um and uh well she was a great
00:38:33
singer and uh
00:38:35
>> yeah Black Pearl. Black Pearl was a
00:38:36
great song.
00:38:37
>> Yeah, we did that song.
00:38:38
>> A E I OU.
00:38:38
>> A IU G. You remember the songs? That was
00:38:40
1990
00:38:42
1990 A IU which which was a landmark
00:38:45
song in terms of the real but very proud
00:38:48
of those days in terms of um her and the
00:38:51
band and uh um you know it was uh that
00:38:54
Moore Hunter thing was those are the
00:38:56
days not like now you know everybody's
00:38:58
singing in the real and all that sort of
00:38:59
stuff. Not in those days. It was really
00:39:02
um uh minimal. And uh so I had her and
00:39:05
obviously her and then don't know you
00:39:07
heard of Hi Moi. Hi. So she came in with
00:39:11
um she came in and she did a a deal with
00:39:13
a guy who um whose name's gone out of my
00:39:16
head. He had a studio in Parnell.
00:39:18
>> Uh uh and and Huh. He came in and uh did
00:39:22
a um a big song too. So those were good
00:39:25
days. I mean we had Moana when when I I
00:39:27
was managing the Mo Hunters but on
00:39:28
Tongata we had Moana, we had Hini, we
00:39:31
had Emma [ __ ] I don't know if you
00:39:33
remember her.
00:39:33
>> System Virtue.
00:39:34
>> Yeah, System Virtue. Great song.
00:39:35
>> Southside of Bombay you know damn
00:39:37
native. I don't know if you heard of
00:39:38
Damn Native.
00:39:39
>> Yeah. Behold my cool style. Yeah. And we
00:39:42
you know they were great. And then init
00:39:44
and then my first band was a band called
00:39:46
Upper Hot Posy who I took to the states.
00:39:48
You know they were the first rap band in
00:39:49
the country.
00:39:50
>> Yeah. They were the first rap band. They
00:39:51
they were like a radical moldy band.
00:39:54
They get up and go too and the new park
00:39:56
is all racist and they come to Pon and
00:39:58
oh yeah they'd be doing all this stuff
00:40:00
and at the time all the all the young
00:40:02
park kids around Pon and them love them
00:40:05
and they all racist and they got this
00:40:08
big following. Yeah. So 1988
00:40:11
89 90 they were um they were quite big
00:40:13
posy and Murray Kamro grabbed them. I
00:40:15
don't know if you know Murray
00:40:16
>> and Murray had our Southside label
00:40:19
>> and he was running Southside and then he
00:40:20
was he had a rock label and he had
00:40:22
Sheihard on the rock label. So he he was
00:40:25
something else.
00:40:26
>> Was it um so the the this sort of bands
00:40:29
you were managing back then? Was it like
00:40:30
a frustrating uphill battle to try and
00:40:32
get radio play?
00:40:33
>> You know um so so it's funny cuz uh you
00:40:36
know I ran into when I got onto radio
00:40:37
live I ran into different people and
00:40:39
they said remember when you used to come
00:40:40
in and give us a hard time. I said yes.
00:40:43
told you all you're a disgrace, you
00:40:44
know, like play some moldy play some
00:40:46
moldy music, eh? You know what? Why does
00:40:49
it all, you know, cuz you're trying to
00:40:50
find a way in into mainstream, eh? And
00:40:54
uh and uh yeah, had some real laughs
00:40:56
with uh program directors through the
00:40:58
years because they had their own set
00:41:00
format. My FM had uh just started and um
00:41:04
my mates and that were involved with
00:41:06
that. I I was particularly irritated
00:41:07
with them because uh I felt that they
00:41:10
they just adopted that American um
00:41:13
>> format straight away and I says, "Oh,
00:41:15
any dummy can do that. Why the the
00:41:17
challenge is can you play some moldy
00:41:19
music?" So, we had a they were my mates,
00:41:22
but I I I uh I was irritated with their
00:41:25
strategy early on cuz they weren't
00:41:27
playing the moldy music either. But you
00:41:29
know they turned around later on and
00:41:32
they started playing some of the moldy
00:41:33
music and uh it took a long long time
00:41:36
before we uh we broke through. But those
00:41:38
were um challenging days but you know
00:41:42
those are days when you know program
00:41:44
directors were scared to go outside the
00:41:45
format. So wasn't just moldy music
00:41:48
actually to be fair Kiwi music wasn't
00:41:50
being played either if if you remember.
00:41:52
>> Yeah. There was talk always of a quot.
00:41:54
>> That's right.
00:41:55
>> The closest you'd get to some Kiwi music
00:41:56
is maybe a tiny bit of crowded house.
00:41:58
Sure. That's right. So, you had to be
00:41:59
like a superstar like Neil Finn or Tim
00:42:01
Finn, but you know, um those I really
00:42:04
enjoyed those days and guys like Neil
00:42:05
and Tim Finn were great for us. I mean,
00:42:07
we they they did a big show for us, War
00:42:09
Hunters, when we went over to seas. We
00:42:10
went to New Orleans and played with the
00:42:13
um Neville brothers and and Neil and
00:42:15
Neil and them gave us a lot of support,
00:42:17
you know, so great days.
00:42:20
>> Um yeah, I read an article that um Moana
00:42:23
was involved with and she described you
00:42:24
as really annoying and that was part of
00:42:26
the reason why you divorced.
00:42:28
Probably. Probably.
00:42:30
>> Is that fair?
00:42:31
>> Uh, yeah. I can't recall that article. I
00:42:34
thought actually it was the other way
00:42:35
around.
00:42:38
>> You probably faults on both sides.
00:42:40
>> No. No. But we're all right. Here and I
00:42:41
we're mates, you know.
00:42:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um
00:42:44
>> Well, you you're a good example of that.
00:42:45
Yeah.
00:42:45
>> Researching researching this podcast, I
00:42:47
saw a piece of you um debating in Oxford
00:42:49
last year and uh the the TV piece was
00:42:52
broadcast on her TV show. Yes.
00:42:54
>> And uh the story was um done by your
00:42:56
son. Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Well, he's a,
00:42:59
you know, he's a sort of great producer,
00:43:01
my boy. And uh
00:43:02
>> so him and her have their own TV show on
00:43:05
um uh on for Katamari Marty television.
00:43:08
And so he came over with me to Oxford.
00:43:10
And when he um uh when he said, "Right,
00:43:13
I'm coming." Cuz I I I was wanting to
00:43:15
get Julian Warox or someone else cuz I
00:43:17
thought I can't bring my son to Oxford,
00:43:19
you know, you know, it'll look too sort
00:43:21
of in house and see more jump up in the
00:43:24
air. And he goes, "I'm coming." And
00:43:26
that's it. And I said, "You better do a
00:43:27
good story, son." And he did a terrific
00:43:29
story. It was a great uh a great uh um
00:43:33
uh event. I took with my wife now,
00:43:35
Tanya, who's been actually been my wife
00:43:37
for the last 20 years. Uh she came with
00:43:40
me. Oh, she and she's actually in Oxford
00:43:42
right now. Tanya. Yeah, she's over there
00:43:43
now, believe it or not. And uh we just
00:43:46
so enjoyed it, you know. It was
00:43:48
fantastic. But my boy, he did a great um
00:43:51
he did a great show. It was really uh uh
00:43:53
terrific. And so I was able to hold my
00:43:55
head up high. And the other good thing
00:43:57
was, well, we won the debate. So that
00:43:58
was good, you know.
00:44:00
>> Yeah, I enjoyed watching that. Um,
00:44:02
you've done so much public speaking. Do
00:44:04
you get nervous before something of that
00:44:05
magnitude?
00:44:06
>> I think we all I think I think it's good
00:44:08
to get a little bit nervous. Eh, I mean,
00:44:10
you know, this you're a bit of a big
00:44:12
time presenter yourself. And uh I I
00:44:14
think if you don't get a little bit
00:44:16
nervous um something bloody something
00:44:19
wrong cuz I think I think you can go
00:44:20
wrong
00:44:22
when you're just a bit too relaxed.
00:44:24
That's what I found in over the years.
00:44:26
Like if you if you if you you you think
00:44:29
oh it's and you know the minute you
00:44:31
start winging stuff I think I think you
00:44:33
you can make mistakes. Yeah.
00:44:34
>> Um
00:44:36
>> even though you know you you I can wing
00:44:37
stuff and I'm sure you can too but you
00:44:40
should always be prepared you know. And
00:44:42
one of the things I know with speakers
00:44:44
and just just talking to young people as
00:44:46
they go through life, I always say you
00:44:49
always got to take a risk sometimes when
00:44:50
you do a speech or you know most of the
00:44:52
time it'll come off. Now and then it
00:44:54
might fall flat.
00:44:56
>> You had that experience.
00:44:57
>> But when you when you've done enough of
00:44:58
it, you you learn how to get yourself
00:44:59
out of holes that you put yourself into.
00:45:01
But at that um Oxford debate, there was
00:45:03
a line that you had for I think it was
00:45:04
to a heckler or an opponent.
00:45:06
>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:45:07
>> It was a hell of a line. Was that Was
00:45:08
that in the back pocket or was that off
00:45:09
the cup?
00:45:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. That was the what? No, no,
00:45:12
no. Cuz we
00:45:13
>> So you've been shutting me out for 200
00:45:14
years.
00:45:14
>> Yeah, that's right. We we were waiting
00:45:15
for a question like that. So it might
00:45:17
have looked like it was natural, but you
00:45:19
know, we said well cuz I had a great I
00:45:21
got a great prepper, my man in
00:45:22
Wellington guy called Bronson. He's who
00:45:24
you've been dealing with. Uh and so he's
00:45:26
terrific prepper or Bronson and we we
00:45:28
sort of prepped. I mean you got to prep,
00:45:30
you know. We went for a few hours
00:45:32
saying, "Well, what if we get that
00:45:33
question? What if we get that question?"
00:45:34
Because you can die you can die on
00:45:36
stage, you know. And uh that's right.
00:45:38
And yeah, that's right. and they wanted
00:45:40
to jump in and I said, "Look, we've been
00:45:41
waiting 200 years for this moment." So,
00:45:43
never had you never had a marry before.
00:45:45
>> Hey, Mama Davidson's going over in
00:45:47
November.
00:45:48
>> Wow.
00:45:48
>> Yeah. So, so David Seymour went over. He
00:45:50
was over there recently. I was there and
00:45:52
now M which it's just a wonderful You
00:45:55
been Oxford? No. Beautiful city. Ah,
00:45:57
beautiful.
00:45:58
>> And what about Frank Buns? When did you
00:46:00
end up managing Frank Buns?
00:46:01
>> No, I've got to put that in the right
00:46:03
Buny has been my mate for many, many
00:46:05
years. Uh, and I I don't know how many
00:46:08
people I keep trying to tell is that I
00:46:10
never really actually managed Frank
00:46:11
Bugs. It just keeps coming out. But I
00:46:14
did, you know, we were great mates, but
00:46:15
but but for some reason some media, you
00:46:18
know, like I did give him advice and and
00:46:20
I and I told Buny, tell them I don't
00:46:22
actually manage you cuz a manager gets
00:46:24
money and you know,
00:46:28
>> free advice. Free advice, not a manager.
00:46:30
>> That's right. Well, what happened was I
00:46:31
tell you because Frank, we've been mates
00:46:33
since we were kids. We all went to
00:46:34
school together and um you know he uh he
00:46:37
comes over home and he goes, "Oh jeez,
00:46:39
you know, I just got laid off from the
00:46:40
rubbish trucks, you know, and he's uh
00:46:43
he's like 29, 30." And I says, "For a
00:46:45
start, bro, you know, you normally
00:46:46
wouldn't even say you were working on
00:46:48
the rubbish trucks, you know, but uh
00:46:50
yeah, you know, he goes, I don't get
00:46:52
smart." And I go, "You're so you're so
00:46:55
liberal with that, eh?" Cuz Buny was
00:46:57
real Frank's real clever, you know, he
00:46:59
can do any job, but he just can't be
00:47:00
bothered. E likes training. And I says,
00:47:02
"So now you're redundant from the
00:47:04
rubbish trucks and you're, you know,
00:47:05
you're been you've been an Oakland rep."
00:47:07
He wasn't in the All Blacks. So he goes,
00:47:08
"Oh, can you do me some a deal?" So what
00:47:10
I did do was, so I did do a bit of
00:47:12
negotiation for him. I tried to tie him
00:47:14
up with a contract with Canterbury Banks
00:47:17
and a guy called Peter Moore was the
00:47:19
chief executive of of Canterbury
00:47:20
Bankstown. And and I says, "I got this
00:47:23
guy just played for S. Moore. You know,
00:47:25
he uh can we get a contract?" And he
00:47:27
goes, "25 grand." I says, "25,000." and
00:47:29
he was just finished the 91 World Cup.
00:47:32
You know, he must be worth 100. No, 20.
00:47:34
I've seen him, will he? You don't try to
00:47:36
try try it on me. I've seen everyone. I
00:47:38
know you're a union guy, you know. And
00:47:40
he it's 25,000 or it's no deal. And it's
00:47:43
and and come back to Bund. And so Eric
00:47:45
Rush was advising cuz Eric Rush, I had
00:47:47
my union office and Rush had his office
00:47:49
around the corner. He was a lawyer. So
00:47:51
we were both helping him. So all of a
00:47:53
sudden people started saying we were
00:47:54
managers and all that. So we never
00:47:55
really were, but we're just helpers and
00:47:57
advisers and supporters. Anyway, um we
00:47:59
said 25 grand. He goes, "Oh, I don't
00:48:01
know. Oh, maybe I'll do it next minute."
00:48:03
Lori Mains gets in, sorry, um Peter, oh,
00:48:07
the guy who was running um North Harbor
00:48:09
Rugby, he was the co coach over there.
00:48:11
He got in touch on behalf of Lori Mains
00:48:13
and they said, "If you play like you
00:48:14
played for Sour, you'll make the All
00:48:16
Blacks." And they gave him a bit of a
00:48:18
job over on on the North North Harour
00:48:21
and next minute he played for North
00:48:23
Harbor. Next minute he made the All
00:48:24
Blacks at 30. And it was fantastic. No,
00:48:27
that was 19. That was 1992. 1993 John
00:48:30
Teimu gets injured. Remember John Timu?
00:48:32
>> Yes.
00:48:32
>> Gets injured for Canary Banks now. Then
00:48:34
Peter Moore rings me. He goes, "Hey
00:48:36
Willie, that Frank Bunch is good, isn't
00:48:37
he?"
00:48:39
He goes, "Oh gee, I've been watching him
00:48:40
with the Orlex. Gee, he's good, isn't
00:48:42
he, Willie?" He goes, "We've got an
00:48:44
injury." And I says, "Well, how much?"
00:48:46
He goes, "1000,000." And he goes, "And
00:48:48
that's huge money." Then I went back to
00:48:49
Bun. He goes, he goes, "What do you
00:48:51
reckon?" You know, cuz he's he's an all
00:48:52
black and but he's making, you know, I
00:48:54
don't know what he's making money. He
00:48:55
might have been making 50k a year or
00:48:57
something. Anyway, and I we thought
00:48:58
about it and we kept talking about it
00:48:59
and I says, "Mate, I went back to Peter
00:49:01
Moore and I said, "What if he gets
00:49:02
injured?" "Oh, that's too bad." I says,
00:49:04
"Oh, no. We can't do it." Frank said,
00:49:06
"Can't do it." I says, "You're 30 now,
00:49:08
31. Some 20-year-old will break your arm
00:49:10
and that'll be the end of it." But it
00:49:11
was interesting. E, you know, he would
00:49:13
have been sensational in league. But he
00:49:14
was a great all black and we were so
00:49:16
proud because he represented us in
00:49:18
Mangadi and South Oakland and great
00:49:20
player watching him. Um, you know, we
00:49:22
all at Monaco Rivers and fantastic to
00:49:24
watch someone like that. Frank's one of
00:49:26
the good guys of life, you know. Oh,
00:49:28
>> he's wonderful. You meet him. He's such
00:49:30
a such a nice, kind guy.
00:49:32
>> Neat guy, you know, got the young wife,
00:49:34
I think, you know, had about five, you
00:49:36
know, and and oh, I won't talk about
00:49:39
Bunsy too much. But anyway, he's a very
00:49:41
well, he's a married, very happily
00:49:44
married man now, uh, with his young
00:49:47
kids. You know, he's Bunch's like 63,
00:49:49
same age as me. 63. I think the wife's
00:49:52
she's a fair bit younger, but he's doing
00:49:54
well. Uh, but one of the great talents
00:49:56
of South Oakland. I mean, I was so proud
00:49:58
of him. You know, we have Eric Rush,
00:50:00
Frank, Jonah Lman. You know, I met Jonah
00:50:02
when he was young and and he that was it
00:50:06
was just great to to see him and really
00:50:08
proud to see that South Oakland talent
00:50:10
come out. Eh,
00:50:11
>> yeah, you you talk [ __ ] about everyone.
00:50:13
Does
00:50:15
um
00:50:17
does any Oh, no. It's it's it's so much
00:50:19
fun.
00:50:19
>> One of the things Rushy actually I think
00:50:21
Eric said it to He says, "Well, if you
00:50:22
if you can't talk crap about your mates
00:50:24
to your mates, then they can't be your
00:50:26
mates, right?" Hey, you know,
00:50:27
>> well, I'm I'm the same. I think I I say
00:50:29
to people, "Roasting is one of my love
00:50:30
languages." But does it get you in
00:50:32
trouble?
00:50:32
>> NOT REALLY.
00:50:33
>> NO,
00:50:34
NOT REALLY. MY daughter always says,
00:50:36
"Oh, God, Papa, can you can you just do
00:50:38
something and say something just nice
00:50:40
straight? You you you say you say
00:50:42
something nice and then you rubbish."
00:50:45
>> So, you know, because I'm the chair of
00:50:47
our Mar and you know, just you just gota
00:50:50
you gota have a bit of fun, you I mean,
00:50:51
I think that's what JT and I had over
00:50:54
seven years. You know, John and I had
00:50:55
that. People loved it cuz we used to
00:50:57
just rubbish each other. You know, our
00:51:00
wives Tanya and they used to they used
00:51:03
to worry because they thought we were
00:51:05
going to have punchups in the studio.
00:51:06
She said she rushed they rushed over
00:51:08
there once cuz we were yelling at each
00:51:10
other in the studio cuz he used to drive
00:51:12
me crazy cuz, you know, he was so, you
00:51:14
know, he was like a blinking uh uh he
00:51:17
was like a Winston in the studio. You
00:51:18
know, he'd be running all this he was
00:51:20
Mr. a right-wing politician in those
00:51:21
days, eh? You know, you know, so um and
00:51:25
so he was running the right-wing stuff
00:51:26
and calling me a radical and we'd just
00:51:29
be blow it' just blow up and Paul Holmes
00:51:32
rung me, he'd say, "I've never heard
00:51:33
anything like it." Never. He goes, "It's
00:51:36
just compelling. I can't stop listening
00:51:38
to it." That's why when we finished,
00:51:39
mate, I I was really sad. I was sad. I
00:51:42
thought seven years and and yes, what
00:51:45
what we did was terrible. uh you know
00:51:48
and I apologize and I apologize again
00:51:50
today but you reckon we could have got a
00:51:52
second chance when when I think about
00:51:54
all the mongrels who've been on radio
00:51:55
like you and and no you think about it
00:51:58
that bling and Zayn Kirby he should have
00:52:00
been bloody thrown in the bloom in
00:52:02
Oakland Harour Z thing Kirby you know th
00:52:05
used to work for us at Georgie Fem oh my
00:52:07
god he was blinking disgraced lane great
00:52:09
talent but you know look at all this
00:52:11
stuff those boys on the rock you know
00:52:14
when I think of all the things that had
00:52:15
happened Paul Holmes when he caught body
00:52:17
a cheeky [ __ ]
00:52:18
>> That's right. Coffee and nan from the
00:52:19
UN. Yeah.
00:52:20
>> Heather Dupy Allen when she insulted the
00:52:22
whole Pacific, you know, uh those boys
00:52:25
the the top marks, they gave Rangui
00:52:27
Walker's phone number away on air. I
00:52:29
think of all the things that happened on
00:52:30
radio and I thought what we did was the
00:52:33
worst thing. It wasn't good. But um it
00:52:35
was I felt really sad about it because I
00:52:39
think that we played a part in radio
00:52:41
that has never been done before and
00:52:43
maybe not done since in terms of
00:52:45
introducing T maldi to mainstream. You
00:52:48
know we brought hon cuz he didn't like
00:52:50
punk house and going on main street
00:52:53
don when she got out of jail. you know,
00:52:56
it's incredible radio and I felt that at
00:52:59
the end we should have been given the
00:53:01
dignity of uh signing out properly or
00:53:04
being, you know, but no second chances
00:53:06
for us. Just kicked that. We won the top
00:53:08
talkback host in the country. For me, uh
00:53:11
Dom, it was the most um regretful thing
00:53:15
that I've ever been that I've ever been
00:53:17
part of in my, you know, my work life
00:53:20
and career. It was the saddest thing
00:53:22
because um it was a guy called Mitch
00:53:24
Harris brought us on and Mitch was a
00:53:26
great uh you know he was great uh
00:53:29
bringing us on and he he helped
00:53:30
negotiate our contract with Breedy and
00:53:33
um to have that opportunity in
00:53:35
mainstream in terms of two mildly
00:53:38
advocating uh uh views was was uh was
00:53:42
unheard of. unheard of. And even today,
00:53:45
I and what I loved about it is it got
00:53:47
gave me an opportunity to cut, you know,
00:53:50
cuz JT was always trying to say, well,
00:53:51
he's a separatist, he's this, he's that,
00:53:53
and load of rubbish, you know, and and
00:53:56
then you get to Kiwis. And so you get
00:53:57
around the country and we see people
00:53:59
down in Greymouth and and they go, "HEY,
00:54:02
JOHNNY, HE ALWAYS TRIES TO PAINT you
00:54:04
like a radical overly." I said, "He's a
00:54:05
mongrel." Okay. And and and it was such
00:54:09
a wonderful seven years. And here we are
00:54:11
in 2025. Who who's the radical? John
00:54:13
Dahedi running the Moldi Party and I'm
00:54:15
in the Labour Party now.
00:54:17
>> Yeah, I wondered about that the dynamic
00:54:19
of that show because yeah, as you've
00:54:20
said, seven years, it's an incredible
00:54:22
long run. Um,
00:54:24
>> it was a phenomenal show you had and as
00:54:26
I I can't agree anymore with Sir Paul
00:54:28
Holmes. That was a compelling listen cuz
00:54:30
you're hearing these two guys and you
00:54:32
think they they hate each other. But
00:54:34
you're you're like best mates though.
00:54:36
>> Oh, yes.
00:54:36
>> How did that look in commercial breaks
00:54:38
or at the end of the show each day?
00:54:40
Sometimes it would get a bit touchy. I'd
00:54:42
have to walk out because I thought I'm
00:54:43
gonna punch him or he I thought he was
00:54:45
going to punch me, right? And because we
00:54:48
we can't, you know, we that's now been
00:54:50
our background, too. We went and we went
00:54:52
into a fight for life once cuz Dean
00:54:54
Lonigan said, "Right, were you guys
00:54:55
fighting this fight for life?" went,
00:54:57
"Yeah, we'll be in." And so we went down
00:54:59
and had our own fight down at the ABA.
00:55:01
And then he said, "Oh, no, you fellas,
00:55:02
you can't fight you." Because I was
00:55:04
fighting Bill English. I don't know if
00:55:05
you remember that here, but Bill and
00:55:07
they wanted someone to fight Bill
00:55:08
English. and Lonigan says, "No, no, you
00:55:09
guys can fight. You we'll get someone
00:55:11
else to fight Lonigan uh to fight Bill
00:55:13
English." But we we were, you know, we
00:55:16
we from South and West Oakland and uh
00:55:18
yeah, we'd get real angry with each
00:55:20
other. We'd walk out and then we come
00:55:21
back in and then we'd have a laugh, you
00:55:22
know, we go for a beer and, you know, we
00:55:24
never ever had a a um we never ever had
00:55:27
a punch up. The only time we ever did we
00:55:30
was when we first sort of got together
00:55:32
which was before radio and um we were
00:55:35
doing the urban maldi thing in the ' 90s
00:55:37
and I didn't like how he was carrying on
00:55:40
so I said step outside and um this was
00:55:42
at my mother's and he said yeah okay so
00:55:45
so we we were walking we were walking
00:55:47
outside and mom jumped in the middle
00:55:50
she said cut it out you know I just got
00:55:52
so I just got so sick of a m I thought
00:55:56
yeah I don't know if I would have I you
00:55:57
know, we were young, you know, young,
00:55:59
young and crazy, but we were walking out
00:56:01
the door and uh mom jumps in the middle,
00:56:04
you know, it's 1996 or something, you
00:56:06
know, I was actually I would have backed
00:56:08
myself then pretty fit, but he was he's
00:56:11
pretty fit, too. You know, he's a New
00:56:12
Zealand league representative and all
00:56:14
that. So, um yeah, those were great
00:56:16
days. And and the funny thing was in
00:56:19
2016
00:56:21
um uh I was on radio, you know, he cuz
00:56:24
he he finished cuz they you know they
00:56:26
cut him and I carried on with Ellie
00:56:27
Moore and I had decided that I did want
00:56:29
to go to Parliament and so and so did
00:56:31
John. So we we started that's when we
00:56:33
both um thought we we would go. So I
00:56:36
thought I was going with the Moldi party
00:56:38
and he thought he was going with the
00:56:39
Labour Party but it just turned around
00:56:41
and went around the other way. That's
00:56:43
why today and today he's running the
00:56:45
moldy party and I'm involved obviously
00:56:47
in the Labour party. So,
00:56:48
>> how often do you guys speak?
00:56:50
>> Sometimes I'll speak too much. Three
00:56:51
times a week maybe and then we might
00:56:53
have two weeks breaks and then we'll
00:56:54
have have a catch up. You know, we're
00:56:56
part of each other, you know, our
00:56:58
families and and all that sort of stuff.
00:56:59
>> Is he your best friend?
00:57:00
>> I don't know about that.
00:57:02
>> I don't think, you know, we're just good
00:57:04
mates and for relations, you know. You
00:57:06
know, he's No, I don't about that. But I
00:57:08
I think we'd both deny that, but we're
00:57:10
good. You know, like uh uh I'm really
00:57:12
proud of him. I'm really proud of the
00:57:14
way he came back after that Oakland
00:57:16
Miralty stuff,
00:57:17
>> you know. Was that you remember he went
00:57:19
for the Oakland Malty against Phil Goff?
00:57:21
>> No.
00:57:21
>> Yeah. It's only 5 years ago. Yeah. And
00:57:24
it all wind up in flames, you know, and
00:57:26
it was a bloody mess, you know, and uh
00:57:29
Oh, god. He, you know, just typical JT.
00:57:32
But he came back and then he he says,
00:57:34
"Right, I'm going to I'm going to get
00:57:35
this multiarty thing going." and he got
00:57:37
it going and look where they are today,
00:57:39
you know, and so I'm proud of what he's
00:57:41
did but done, but he's got a still got a
00:57:44
lot of work to do in terms of managing
00:57:45
that team going forward.
00:57:47
>> And you proud of your um your radio show
00:57:49
together this those seven years.
00:57:51
>> Oh, it was a wonderful time, you know.
00:57:52
>> What is what are some excuse me, what is
00:57:53
some of your um like best best honor
00:57:55
memories?
00:57:56
>> Oh, so there were so many so many you
00:57:59
know um
00:58:01
Yeah. Yeah. I mean
00:58:02
>> just there was a lot of laughs. I just
00:58:04
remember there being a lot of laugh a
00:58:06
lot of really heated debates as well.
00:58:07
>> I remember him running Stacy Jones down,
00:58:09
you know, that Stacy Jones wasn't up to
00:58:12
scratch, you know, in the war cuz we
00:58:13
used to do and I and I sent Stacy a
00:58:15
message. He's going, "Oh." Next, an hour
00:58:17
later, Stacy walks in. He goes, "OH,
00:58:18
WHAT'S STACY Jones doing here? What's
00:58:21
Stacy Jones doing here?" And Stacy walks
00:58:23
into the you know, stuff like that. You
00:58:25
know, you have little pranks like that.
00:58:27
And, you know, going going over to
00:58:29
Donati when she just got out of jail. We
00:58:31
got a lot of uh it was a lot so much
00:58:34
stuff. It was it was such an opportunity
00:58:36
and it was great money too. You know it
00:58:38
was you know in those days it was uh it
00:58:41
was uh you know it was a lot of money as
00:58:43
you know you being one of those rich
00:58:44
guys who was getting all big contracts
00:58:46
you and your misses. Um there was a lot
00:58:48
of money around radio then e um but uh
00:58:51
we were um you know we we didn't do much
00:58:55
prep like we did no prep you know like
00:58:57
we were walking in as they were playing
00:58:59
the bling and the soundtrack sort of
00:59:00
stuff eh so uh but it was uh it was we
00:59:04
you know so it was pretty it was just an
00:59:07
opportunity to advance mai workingclass
00:59:10
but also have a bit of fun have music
00:59:13
and also show New Zealand a side of mai
00:59:15
that they never seen before And so we
00:59:17
got so many supporters online, you know,
00:59:20
um and and and and not just MAI but
00:59:23
park, you know, was it was real
00:59:24
workingass and it was just terrific. We
00:59:27
had taxi drivers. I mean, I done a lot
00:59:29
of jobs, you know, from politics to TV.
00:59:32
John and I actually ended up with a TV
00:59:33
show on TV one after that. We had we got
00:59:36
one year on TV. We got one series. Uh
00:59:38
but nothing touches and you know,
00:59:41
nothing touches radio, does it? in terms
00:59:43
of that uh personal touch you know I did
00:59:45
I had a chief you know you're talking
00:59:47
about what I did
00:59:48
>> between 2004 2010 I had a weekly current
00:59:52
affairs show on TV called I to eye I
00:59:54
don't know if you saw that we did about
00:59:56
120 shows you know and that was f I love
00:59:59
that Bill Rston I got that through Bill
01:00:00
Rston and
01:00:01
>> and Claudet Hoy who was my producer but
01:00:04
nothing quite touched radio in terms of
01:00:07
touching people's lives
01:00:09
>> you know and just that connection just
01:00:10
that connection% it's something special
01:00:13
and and I I loved it. I loved it with
01:00:14
John. I enjoyed it with Allie Alli
01:00:16
Moore. I thought uh I thought this is a
01:00:18
this is a challenge, you know, with
01:00:20
Ally. Uh she was such a good friend and
01:00:22
uh um and she was a bit controversial,
01:00:25
you know, cuz her and um her and her
01:00:28
hubby had broken up and
01:00:29
>> Oh, Simon Del.
01:00:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, she was
01:00:31
in a lesbian relationship, so it was all
01:00:33
controversial and you know, I got her
01:00:35
talking about it and she's really neat.
01:00:38
and her and her her partner that's she's
01:00:40
really lovely her partner and so I did
01:00:43
one two three years with with Ally um
01:00:46
and um and then I think she finished
01:00:49
about 218 219 but I mean she's done
01:00:51
really well just done a book recently
01:00:53
yeah
01:00:54
>> proud of her proud of what she's done
01:00:56
too you know she's very brave courageous
01:00:58
uh woman
01:01:00
>> yes so that that radio show after seven
01:01:02
years that it all sort of blew up um and
01:01:04
it was like a big a lot of people there
01:01:06
so such a long time ago a lot people
01:01:07
won't even remember but it was 2013 um
01:01:10
was a thing called Ghostbusters.
01:01:11
>> Ghostbusters.
01:01:12
>> Do you Yeah. How do you feel reflecting
01:01:14
on this now?
01:01:14
>> Oh, as I've said um you know this
01:01:16
remains the biggest regret. What
01:01:18
happened was a a young young woman
01:01:22
not even I'm not sure I don't know who
01:01:24
it was. That's what thing that really
01:01:26
irritates me um is that we never f they
01:01:29
never found out who it was. She never
01:01:30
came forward. She rang in and and uh she
01:01:33
was having a few problems. We weren't
01:01:35
concentrating at the time. we weren't
01:01:37
concentrating and uh so we we we gave
01:01:40
some very um offensive responses and uh
01:01:44
um but you know it's 3:30 we're
01:01:46
finishing at 4 4:00 I don't know what
01:01:48
what happened but uh um uh anyway was
01:01:52
wasn't good wasn't good response Mary
01:01:55
Chapman our producer's been a great
01:01:57
producer she thought that it sounded
01:02:00
fine she she replayed it overnight
01:02:03
and then it just blew up and it just
01:02:05
blew M and as I said, Mike King had rung
01:02:07
me and said, "Oh, I don't know about
01:02:08
that. I don't know about that um radio
01:02:12
show you guys did." Geez, that was that
01:02:14
wasn't sounding good. And when I when I
01:02:16
say it blew up, man, it blew up. Like we
01:02:18
were on 6:00 news for the next couple of
01:02:20
weeks. Uh we were um they they shut the
01:02:23
show down. They sent us home and they
01:02:25
said, "Don't go into the public, you
01:02:26
know, cuz you'll be attacked." Well,
01:02:28
that wasn't true, of course, because
01:02:29
when we went everywhere, you know. So I
01:02:31
said don't be careful about this cuz we
01:02:33
do have support for our from our
01:02:35
communities.
01:02:36
>> And the other thing is I says we are big
01:02:38
supporters of women. It was just a it
01:02:41
was a it was just a a bad m a bad
01:02:44
mistake and and and I wanted us anyway
01:02:47
they basically said oh you can come back
01:02:48
but we you know we don't want JT and all
01:02:50
this sort of stuff and I said so that's
01:02:52
the end of the show. I was going to
01:02:53
finish too, but then I sort of thought
01:02:55
reputation is everything. So, as you
01:02:57
know, and so I thought I would go back,
01:02:59
but I don't like how we were treated. I
01:03:01
think that we should have been warned.
01:03:03
The show should have come back. We
01:03:04
should have been given an opportunity
01:03:05
just like as you said, people like
01:03:07
Holmes, people like Heather Dupy Allen,
01:03:10
like Mike Hoskins, like the the the Top
01:03:12
Marks when they did the Rangyui Walker
01:03:15
stuff in the 80s, like the Rock who've
01:03:18
been done done over. I think you've been
01:03:19
done over a couple of times, too. Oh, by
01:03:21
the by the broadcasting. Yeah. Anyone
01:03:24
anyone that has any sort of impact on
01:03:25
the air has to be polarizing. You have
01:03:27
to sort of dance that line.
01:03:28
>> No, but you you know, you sort of think,
01:03:30
well, you know, I might have done
01:03:31
something stupid when we did, but do do
01:03:33
you what? Don't don't ask Mary's get a
01:03:35
second chance, you know.
01:03:36
>> Yeah. Well, yeah, it does seem unfair
01:03:38
that um you seven incredible years on
01:03:40
the air and then um and then it it just
01:03:43
um
01:03:43
>> Yeah. boils down to your worst moment.
01:03:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. Know, which seems kind of
01:03:47
unfair. And and you know when you
01:03:49
>> did it did that change you as a person
01:03:50
in any way?
01:03:51
>> You have to be strong cuz it it it no I
01:03:54
don't think it um cuz I I I don't think
01:03:57
it changed me particularly at all. I
01:04:00
I've always been a person who's try to
01:04:02
be a people's person. And uh uh when I
01:04:05
say it didn't change me, maybe that's
01:04:07
wrong. I I I was a bit more careful
01:04:09
after that. You know, I I think the
01:04:12
lesson I learned was on radio blink,
01:04:14
make sure you're listening to every word
01:04:16
in line sometimes, you know, so that
01:04:18
that's where I I was a bit more careful
01:04:20
because, you know, people are ringing
01:04:21
you for advice sometimes. You know, you
01:04:23
you counsel them and all that sort of
01:04:25
stuff. So, but to you know, to this day,
01:04:27
I still feel um sorry for that young
01:04:29
woman. But again, the strange thing
01:04:31
about that was there was no complaint.
01:04:33
We never knew who she was. M
01:04:35
>> um and um and uh you know I apologize
01:04:39
and apologize now that I don't resolve
01:04:42
from that don't resolve from that but I
01:04:44
don't think I've ever said that I I I I
01:04:48
don't think I've said before that I I
01:04:49
don't think that we were treated well I
01:04:51
and I don't think we were treated well I
01:04:52
think we deserve to be disciplined and
01:04:54
all that but I'm always been a person
01:04:55
for second chances third chances and I
01:04:58
thought we should have given us been
01:04:59
given a second chance given our service
01:05:01
but got nothing show was shut down that
01:05:03
was it gone and it was a such big part
01:05:05
of New Zealand radio in many ways. I
01:05:09
remember running into Mark Ellis and he
01:05:10
said to me, "Oh, I'd love to have come
01:05:12
on radio with you, you know, and because
01:05:14
and I didn't know Mark either. He came
01:05:15
up to me in the street a few years ago
01:05:16
and says, you know, you Willie Jackson,
01:05:18
I would have loved to have come on with
01:05:20
you and Tom and all that, you know, and
01:05:21
he's bit he's a bit of a gun himself."
01:05:23
>> Yeah. Incredible broadcast.
01:05:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Ellis. So, you
01:05:26
know, so I know that guys like Mark
01:05:28
Ellis, Paul Holmes, Ian Fraser, you
01:05:30
know, was
01:05:33
they all they all listened to the radio
01:05:34
and so whatever, you know, what I know
01:05:37
what happened in the end, but I remain
01:05:38
very proud of that those seven years
01:05:40
that him and I did.
01:05:41
>> Was that the um the I mean, you've had a
01:05:43
lot of high-profile jobs. Is that the
01:05:45
biggest adversity you've gone through?
01:05:46
That big public shaming was massive.
01:05:48
Hey, the only thing I could probably
01:05:50
compare it to that other people might
01:05:52
understand is like the the Paul Henry
01:05:54
Sheila dick dick [ __ ] thing which was
01:05:56
massive.
01:05:57
>> That was massive. E
01:05:58
>> massive. I think the same sort of thing.
01:05:59
You guys were like public enemy number
01:06:01
one for a week.
01:06:01
>> We were for for about a month.
01:06:03
>> A month for about we were on the 6:00
01:06:05
news and and see John and I didn't we
01:06:08
didn't do social media. So we didn't
01:06:10
even know what Facebook that's how dumb
01:06:11
we were, you know, like we didn't even
01:06:12
know what fa we heard about Facebook and
01:06:14
we didn't know how to do it. We could
01:06:16
barely see in Texas. I've ever you know
01:06:19
so they go have you been read no we
01:06:21
haven't cuz you know I mean I got into
01:06:22
Facebook when I was started in
01:06:24
parliament in 217 and that I thought I
01:06:26
better learn about this Facebook right
01:06:28
honestly you know like we all the med
01:06:30
all the stuff had come through we we'd
01:06:32
start we you know we were so useless
01:06:35
useless technically got ourselves up to
01:06:37
speed a bit later on but in those days
01:06:39
we would barely could get a read what is
01:06:42
that saying we bring people in and we
01:06:44
didn't realize that Facebook had gone
01:06:46
crazy and they They had our our heads
01:06:49
and nooes and every blink of thing. It
01:06:50
was it was incredible. Um uh the the
01:06:53
response and and and it went like that
01:06:55
for a good couple of months. And uh um
01:06:58
the good thing, you know, like like you
01:07:01
do learn stuff from it. I learned to be
01:07:02
a bit more careful, but it also also,
01:07:05
you know, in terms of adversity. Yeah. I
01:07:07
mean,
01:07:09
you got to you got to come through there
01:07:11
and and and what drives me sometimes is
01:07:13
the haters, you know, cuz they they they
01:07:15
go, "Oh, that'll be the end of Tamaheda
01:07:17
and Jackson," you know. I said, "Oh,
01:07:19
well, we'll see." You know, because we
01:07:21
were running our organizations and, you
01:07:23
know, within six months, him and I had
01:07:25
landed the biggest contract in in that
01:07:28
any MAI organization had ever got. And
01:07:30
we started setting our because we our
01:07:32
heart while I love the media, our heart
01:07:34
has always been in the community. I love
01:07:35
working in the community, you know, I
01:07:37
love being CEO for our organization,
01:07:39
Monaco Urban Marty Authority, love
01:07:41
cheering our Mai. So, same with JT. So,
01:07:44
you know, when you see the work on the
01:07:45
ground and you you see you're able to
01:07:47
change people's lives, that's what my
01:07:49
biggest love is. Even though I've loved
01:07:51
uh radio and TV first and foremost has
01:07:54
been my work on the ground. And uh and
01:07:57
that just got more and more and more.
01:07:58
And you know, that was in 213 and in
01:08:01
225. We didn't die, did we? We're still
01:08:03
around. still going. We're old buckets,
01:08:05
but we we're still around.
01:08:07
>> Um did it have any sort of um like
01:08:09
detrimental or negative impact on your
01:08:11
mental health or that that of you know
01:08:13
your family and loved ones around you?
01:08:15
>> Um uh I I was, you know, I'm pretty
01:08:18
resilient, but it was very it was ups
01:08:21
it's upsetting for um my wife wasn't
01:08:23
tarn. She wasn't she was very unhappy,
01:08:26
you know, cuz she could see how much it
01:08:27
meant and um
01:08:29
>> and she knows who you are as a person
01:08:31
and she knows it's not you.
01:08:32
>> That's Well, that's right. That's right.
01:08:34
And she doesn't like anyone to judge
01:08:35
because I'm hugely supportive of women,
01:08:38
you know, uh and uh um and particularly
01:08:41
with my board at the time. I tell you,
01:08:44
it was it that sort of hung over me for
01:08:47
for a few years, particularly when I
01:08:49
started in labor in 2017, you know, like
01:08:52
like I when I went into labor in 217, I
01:08:55
I I I think that I was the most
01:08:57
unpopular uh and most controversial
01:09:01
um candidate in the history of Labor.
01:09:04
You know, I'll I'll never forget that
01:09:06
because I thought because Andrew Little
01:09:07
had approached me and I know I'm moving
01:09:09
this side a bit, but you know, I go into
01:09:11
Labor, Angie, oh, it's going to be
01:09:12
great. it's going to be great and you
01:09:14
know cuz they wanted me obviously
01:09:15
because I had good pro profile and I I
01:09:18
thought it was I thought this was going
01:09:19
all right it's not going to blow up or
01:09:20
anything and then the word got out and
01:09:23
that that I was standing and next minute
01:09:25
we had a big press conference in in
01:09:27
Wangi and all the press I was feeling
01:09:30
quite good about myself
01:09:33
and they said oh yes Jackson's going to
01:09:34
be standing for labor blah blah blah and
01:09:36
then then says oh I got a bit of a
01:09:38
problem it's a bit of a few complaints I
01:09:40
go oh Okay. Um, Angel, I suppose you
01:09:43
were expecting that. He goes, I says,
01:09:44
"Well, you got a few complaints." He
01:09:46
goes, "Yeah, yeah, 400."
01:09:48
I says, "400." And he goes, "Yeah,
01:09:51
there's a 400 strong petition against
01:09:53
you uh and uh u you know, joining the
01:09:56
Labour Party." This is in 2000. So, I'm
01:09:59
looking at him going, "I thought you
01:10:00
checked this all out before, you know."
01:10:02
>> So, this is from like party members and
01:10:04
other other politicians in the party.
01:10:06
>> No. All Yeah. Well, yeah, I found out
01:10:09
some of the MPs, too. But but the
01:10:10
petition was all party members of the
01:10:12
rainbow the rainbow crew. Uh a lot of
01:10:15
our women and I thought and I'm looking
01:10:18
at the complaints. He did not support
01:10:19
the homosexual law reform. He did not
01:10:22
support the um uh the samesex marriage
01:10:25
stuff. Well, I actually did. And I was
01:10:27
looking at that. I says, "No, I
01:10:28
supported all this." I said, "That's JT.
01:10:30
That's JT.
01:10:33
That's this IS ALL JOHN. I R JT.
01:10:36
>> WHY YOU BEING LONDON TOGETHER?"
01:10:37
>> YEAH. YEAH. YEAH. And I go, I r JT up
01:10:39
and I go, "Hey, I'm being I'm getting
01:10:42
blamed for everything that you and he
01:10:44
goes, "Oh, bro, just blame me. Blame me.
01:10:46
Blame me." And uh and I and and so I
01:10:50
says, "What?" So I I went and met with
01:10:52
um the Rainbow Crew and and like they
01:10:55
got a surprise. I 100 I've walked for
01:10:59
supported homosexual reform 100%. Oh,
01:11:02
didn't she? I says, "That's the other
01:11:05
Mall." Yeah.
01:11:09
I said I know he's like he's my he's my
01:11:12
brother and all that. I says they say
01:11:14
but he's your bro. I says yeah but
01:11:16
sometimes bros have the right different
01:11:18
views. You must have mates like that.
01:11:20
You know like absolutely we're not the
01:11:22
SAME PERSON. LIKE I SAYS why do you
01:11:24
think the two marriage well? And they go
01:11:27
well what about the same sex you know
01:11:29
marriage stuff? I says 100%.
01:11:32
Oh
01:11:33
I said didn't you listen to our show?
01:11:35
And they went no they said cuz we
01:11:37
thought I said no but I always had the
01:11:39
different view.
01:11:40
>> Oh then and then everybody started
01:11:41
pulling their names off the petition and
01:11:43
you know it all came down and all the
01:11:46
well but also the MPs weren't
01:11:48
particularly happy either you know I
01:11:49
mean Grant Robinson wasn't too happy and
01:11:52
justinda wasn't happy. No no one liked
01:11:54
me I tell you was it was like and I said
01:11:57
to Andrew little you sure you did your
01:11:59
research here brother you know oh it'll
01:12:01
be all right I tell you we got there.
01:12:03
What what's it like then walking into
01:12:05
that room as a new Labour MP knowing
01:12:07
that um heaps of your new teammates
01:12:10
don't want you there?
01:12:11
>> No. Well,
01:12:12
>> how do you overcome that?
01:12:13
>> No. Well, when I first went in, I wasn't
01:12:15
an MP. I was just a candidate. So, so I
01:12:17
wasn't, you know, so I had to prove
01:12:19
myself and uh uh and then what happened
01:12:22
was Andrew was the leader and next
01:12:23
minute he got thrown out and Justinda
01:12:25
came in and then my mates said to me,
01:12:27
"You got no chance now. Just Justinda
01:12:29
Justinda won't like you, you And so I
01:12:31
thought, "Oh, okay." And then so what I
01:12:34
did, I thought, "Man, I this is my I
01:12:37
know how to organize, you know, I know
01:12:38
how to run campaigns." So I just went
01:12:40
and fronted her up and I says, "Look, I
01:12:42
can leave now if you like, you know."
01:12:44
And she goes, "Oh, no, no, no." I says,
01:12:46
"No, I can, you know, I know you guys
01:12:47
don't like me, you know, you, Chippy,
01:12:49
Grant, you know, I mean, Grant Grant got
01:12:52
really irritated with me when I asked
01:12:53
him, "What do do you think you could be
01:12:56
the first gay um Labour leader?" and he
01:12:58
got all twisted and I was only doing a
01:13:00
devil's advocate question. I think he's
01:13:02
great. And he told me, you know, because
01:13:04
we're good mates now, we're all great
01:13:05
mates. And but but he said, "Oh, I just
01:13:07
thought you were just talking like JT
01:13:09
and we HATE JT.
01:13:11
THEY ALL HATE each other. They all HATE
01:13:14
JT. WHY we talk about him all day? We've
01:13:16
been talking about it through the
01:13:17
studio." But but he goes, "You judge me
01:13:20
on that?" And he goes and he goes,
01:13:23
"Yeah, anyway. Anyway, we we I tell you
01:13:28
I I I I I said to Justinda, "You want me
01:13:30
to go? I'll go." Or, you know, she goes,
01:13:33
"Oh." I say, "Look, I know you all hate
01:13:35
me." So, I I get it. I get I says,
01:13:37
"Look, I understand. I was on radio. I
01:13:40
don't know if you guys actually listen
01:13:41
to the radio show cuz I like a lot of
01:13:44
them, they they just hated those those
01:13:46
shoes, but if they had listened
01:13:47
properly, they would have seen I always
01:13:49
stick up for the underdog." And she
01:13:50
goes, "Oh, no, Willie. You're just doing
01:13:51
your job." And all that sort of stuff.
01:13:53
We'll see how it goes. So I did that for
01:13:55
with her for for the eight weeks that
01:13:57
she was in. She got in and she saw me
01:13:59
working at ground level
01:14:01
>> work really well with the teams and then
01:14:03
I got in and then when I got in she she
01:14:05
made me a minister and so um she said oh
01:14:08
you and then we be you know we just
01:14:09
become mates and so it was it was a real
01:14:12
privilege to be a minister with her and
01:14:14
and people's views changed because they
01:14:15
didn't because they really get to know
01:14:16
you because they didn't they didn't know
01:14:17
me. I'm a loyal person. I I you know yes
01:14:21
I was a moldy party person. I helped
01:14:24
with the setup of the Mai party. I was a
01:14:26
former manuhaki leader. But once I
01:14:28
joined a crew, you know, I support that
01:14:30
crew and that's what I did. And uh and
01:14:32
justinda uh justinda, you know, she she
01:14:35
was so she was uh she was such a good
01:14:37
supporter and it was quite funny cuz as
01:14:39
I said, I hated JD. And then JD said,
01:14:41
"Hey, can you get can you get me a once
01:14:44
I was a minister, can you get me in with
01:14:46
that Grant Robinson?" And I says, "You
01:14:48
going to behave?" Yes. Yes. Okay. So I I
01:14:50
send the crazy man down to see Grant
01:14:52
Ros.
01:14:53
Anyway, and justinda says, "Oh, is he
01:14:55
going to be all right?" Yeah. Yeah. So
01:14:56
it's all So John goes and meet me with
01:14:58
Grant Robinson. Next one on my phone
01:15:00
goes and Justinda says, "Willie." I
01:15:02
says, "Yes." Hi, Justinda. JT just
01:15:05
threatened to punch uh Grant Robinson
01:15:07
up.
01:15:11
I says, "What?" She goes, "Your friend
01:15:13
who you said I just your friend who you
01:15:16
said would be all right had just
01:15:17
threatened the Minister of Finance." I
01:15:20
says, "Ah, yeah, just ignore him." You
01:15:22
know, and
01:15:25
and and then poor old Raj and he's got
01:15:27
this crazy and next
01:15:30
and and and
01:15:34
then JT comes out and I says, "What did
01:15:36
you do?" And he goes, "Ah, he just, you
01:15:38
know, typical." I said, "You didn't Oh,
01:15:40
no. I was just all talk and all that. I
01:15:42
said I says I says well you make these
01:15:45
park house nervous you know you're a
01:15:46
psycho and he goes a tell get over it
01:15:48
you know but anyway we laugh about it
01:15:51
today but I never forget it and justinda
01:15:54
rang me willing your friend has just
01:15:56
threatened to punch over the minister of
01:15:58
finance
01:16:00
and so you know yeah yeah but we became
01:16:02
good mates justinda and I and uh um took
01:16:05
as I said it took a little while because
01:16:07
you know you got trust issues I
01:16:08
understand that and uh um got became
01:16:11
mates with her and uh and obviously
01:16:14
Grant later on Robinson and and Chippy.
01:16:16
So, it's been a it's been a privilege to
01:16:18
have been a a minister with them and an
01:16:19
MP with them over the last uh six, seven
01:16:22
years now.
01:16:23
>> Yeah. How do you how do you feel about
01:16:25
um what's um happened to just since
01:16:27
then?
01:16:28
>> Some terrible stuff, eh?
01:16:29
>> Terrible, man. Terrible.
01:16:31
>> I ashamed to be in New Zealand
01:16:33
sometimes.
01:16:34
>> I hate people who threaten
01:16:36
>> her, you know, that makes me sick. Um
01:16:38
she was over there with uh she was just
01:16:40
in at Oxford with with um my wife Tanya
01:16:44
and and others over there and um because
01:16:46
they're celebrating this woman who who
01:16:48
got a a degree market. She's been they
01:16:52
Oxford University gave her a degree and
01:16:54
just staying in Oxford now. So she went
01:16:56
along to to honor things and all the
01:16:57
moldies just love her. E but I I I don't
01:17:00
like how these people act towards her.
01:17:02
She you know I think most Kiwis I know
01:17:04
they're saying oh all the you know you
01:17:06
this this ugly side who I talk they who
01:17:09
hate you this they hate my guts too. Um
01:17:12
they make out that all New Zealanders
01:17:14
hate. That's not true. It's just that
01:17:16
that that hate crew they they try and be
01:17:19
intimidating in that Adam you know and
01:17:21
and I really feel for her and she I
01:17:23
think she has security with her all the
01:17:25
time.
01:17:25
>> Really?
01:17:25
>> Yeah. Oh from from what I've seen.
01:17:27
>> Yeah you know. Well, you have to because
01:17:28
you might some nut might just jump out
01:17:31
and and have a crack at her. Eh, so um
01:17:34
Oh, I was a proud time. I was I was I
01:17:37
was uh it was a privilege to be with her
01:17:39
and then then Chippy came in and well,
01:17:41
it didn't go down too well. But hey,
01:17:43
that's politics, you know.
01:17:45
>> How how often are you getting told off
01:17:46
by whoever's the leader and what does a
01:17:49
telling off look like? Like I know that
01:17:50
just told you off for that that
01:17:52
interview with Jack Tame in 2022, which
01:17:54
I watched the other day cuz I read some
01:17:56
articles about it. I watched it. It was
01:17:57
fine. I I still can't get over it.
01:17:59
>> So, you said sorry, but you weren't
01:18:00
really sorry.
01:18:01
>> Well, you had to say sorry. Just No, but
01:18:03
but you watch you see it was one of the
01:18:05
most fascinating responses I've ever
01:18:07
seen to an interview. I tell you, like I
01:18:10
said, so so my mate down there, um Tom
01:18:13
Thomas Coglin says, "It's a train
01:18:16
wreck." I'm thinking, I mean, I've done
01:18:18
hundreds of many, many interviews. I've
01:18:21
done a lot of good interviews with Jack,
01:18:22
too. Jack sends me an email straight
01:18:24
after. Ah, that's a great interview.
01:18:26
Right. It was a pre-record. Um,
01:18:30
so our crew saw it before cuz Grant
01:18:32
Robinson was on on the TV on the Sunday.
01:18:35
So, so our our people saw it and no one
01:18:38
thought there was a problem. Mr. Coglin
01:18:41
says, "Oh, Willie Jackson, it was just a
01:18:42
train wreck." Next minute all the
01:18:44
vultures came in. Eh, like to this day
01:18:46
and I watched it, I thought, "Oh, it was
01:18:48
a good interview." Yeah.
01:18:49
>> And like I know what a train wreck
01:18:51
interview is, you know, having been a
01:18:53
media trainer myself. I know, you know,
01:18:56
and I know I've trained I train
01:18:58
journalists. I thought, what did I do
01:19:00
wrong? And so even Thomas Cogland said
01:19:03
to me who who's called it a train who's
01:19:04
>> he's a journalist. gentle and he's quite
01:19:06
a neat guy actually and I like him and
01:19:08
him and I become mates cuz he
01:19:10
interviewed me on his podcast a few
01:19:12
months later and I says yes you mongrel
01:19:14
you know you know you try to destroy my
01:19:17
career you know because like it blew up
01:19:20
it blew up Jackson this train wreck
01:19:22
interview and I thought what's the train
01:19:24
wreck you know and even even and so
01:19:27
justinda said she watches she says oh I
01:19:29
don't know what's the train wreck um you
01:19:32
want to say sorry I says yeah I'll say
01:19:33
sorry you know you know she's she was
01:19:35
really good. I say you got to just shut
01:19:37
the noise down because what happens is
01:19:38
all the vultures come in. Hey, Lux
01:19:40
stands up. And I thought, wait, so one
01:19:43
sort of mistake and they want my job,
01:19:47
you know, but that's politics. So I I
01:19:49
tell you, it's been that was probably
01:19:52
that's probably been the only stressful
01:19:53
time because I was a bit stunned by it.
01:19:55
But what I was also um I was also really
01:20:00
pleased about was the support. So
01:20:01
Justinda was hugely supportive. Grant
01:20:03
Robinson was supportive. the team was
01:20:05
like, you know, cuz I I don't make many
01:20:06
mistakes in politics, but the haters
01:20:08
come in, you see.
01:20:09
>> So, the haters come in and they go, "SEE
01:20:11
THAT WILLIE JACKSON? HE'S SO DUMB. HE'S
01:20:13
SO DUMB. HE'S JUST A DUMB MARY." And I
01:20:16
thought, I'm pretty good actually.
01:20:19
You want to watch some good interviews,
01:20:21
you know, like I've done a lot of good
01:20:22
interviews. I had a t my own TV show had
01:20:25
did 120 shows, you know, for over over
01:20:28
six years. So, no, I do know how to
01:20:30
interview and it was just might mightn't
01:20:33
have been your interview, but but the
01:20:34
haters come in e and oh, they you go,
01:20:36
"Oh, THIS IS IT. WILLIE Jackson's
01:20:38
finished." Oh, I tell you, it just drove
01:20:40
me nuts. So, it was um it was uh it was
01:20:43
a bit of a stressful uh uh uh time, but
01:20:46
uh yeah, when you watched that, you
01:20:47
would have thought, "What was so bad
01:20:48
about that interview?"
01:20:49
>> Yeah. So, I read the article that you're
01:20:50
talking about and then I watched the
01:20:52
interview and I thought it was been
01:20:54
measured and
01:20:56
Jack won't say it. I says, "Go on, Jack,
01:20:58
go and make a statement." I says, "I'll
01:20:59
show you an email that you sent me
01:21:00
saying, great interview." You know, like
01:21:03
he just Jack couldn't believe it, you
01:21:05
know. And so the these things these
01:21:08
things happen and you just have to be
01:21:09
resilient. But but if you want to talk
01:21:10
about train wreck interviews, he go you
01:21:14
watch the Winston interview, man, when
01:21:15
when Jack and him went to toe to toe, it
01:21:18
was I've never seen anything like it.
01:21:20
Winston was like it was just insulting
01:21:23
him, threatening him.
01:21:24
>> Called him a dirt trader over and over
01:21:26
again. Whatever a dirt trader is. And it
01:21:27
and then and then I said to Jack, one
01:21:29
thing that happens though, hey, after
01:21:31
when we finished those sort of
01:21:32
interviews, hey Jack, when I finished
01:21:34
with you, I got promoted a month later
01:21:36
Winston, he was a train wreck, he became
01:21:38
the deputy prime minister. So the the
01:21:40
key is same with Odini Capa who who's
01:21:42
just recently become the new MP for
01:21:44
Tabaki Bakod. Bit of a train wreck
01:21:47
interview uh a month ago. I really like
01:21:49
her. I didn't think it was that bad.
01:21:51
Others are going on train wreck. She
01:21:52
wins the election hands down. So, so the
01:21:55
key is go on Jack Tame show and you get
01:21:58
and everything will be fine.
01:21:59
>> Yeah. And if the reporters think you did
01:22:01
an appalling job, it's probably a good
01:22:03
sign.
01:22:04
>> What What's your relationship like with
01:22:06
um Hosking and Heather at ZB? Do you did
01:22:08
you have you blacklisted Heather? Did I
01:22:10
read somewhere?
01:22:12
>> Well, I'm back talking to her. I'm back.
01:22:14
I made a decision talking to her. Well,
01:22:15
I got a bit upset with Heather because I
01:22:17
we're sort of mates on radio live. For
01:22:19
some reason, she kind of get, you know,
01:22:21
all of a sudden she get nasty all the
01:22:22
time. And I I got really and I wouldn't
01:22:24
have never I just decided not to talk to
01:22:26
her. What actually happened mate was um
01:22:28
when I got that Oxford um invitation,
01:22:31
you know, all the haters come out. Oh,
01:22:32
what he's going to he'll disgrace New
01:22:34
Zealand. He'll do this, do that. And I
01:22:36
just laugh at it. I go, oh, we'll see
01:22:38
haters. You know, we we'll see who does
01:22:40
well. What had happened though was my
01:22:41
daughter was listening to Heather and
01:22:43
she rubbished me on. She goes, "Willy,
01:22:45
what's he going over to?" And my my
01:22:47
daughter came and then that's when I got
01:22:48
a bit upset because I thought, "I don't
01:22:50
know. I don't know why he why is Willie
01:22:52
go will he can can Willie talk and all
01:22:54
that I thought oh yeah
01:22:56
>> and so you know when my daughter I
01:22:57
thought yeah I thought I thought why you
01:22:59
do that you know and then so I thought
01:23:01
no I'm not talking to you anymore
01:23:02
heather so so that was 12 months and now
01:23:05
I'm back talking with her again in fact
01:23:07
when I we won the debate you know I won
01:23:09
the debate Barry so sent me a text you
01:23:12
know uh because you know we had a I've
01:23:14
had a reasonably good when Barry was
01:23:16
sick I was sending you know was I had a
01:23:18
heart bypass too So I I sent Heather,
01:23:22
you know, I've been through what Barry
01:23:23
went through. So I just felt a bit ah
01:23:25
stuffy, I don't need to talk to you, you
01:23:27
know, but she's um uh uh you know, I've
01:23:30
decided to talk with her again because
01:23:31
you know, she's out there. Uh in terms
01:23:33
of Hoskings,
01:23:35
he won't talk to me. He he he boycotted
01:23:38
me. I used to talk to him. We try we've
01:23:41
tried for the I haven't talked to him
01:23:42
for 5 years. Uh and you know what, JT
01:23:45
again?
01:23:49
I did JT again. So what happened? JT
01:23:52
again. So what happened was but Mike go
01:23:55
Mike go look I don't I'd go on a show we
01:23:59
tried several times when I was
01:24:00
broadcasting minister but they they I
01:24:02
know no and then then then then I tried
01:24:05
to be a regular on his show and they
01:24:06
said no we're not having Willie Jackson.
01:24:08
But what had happened was Mike goes on
01:24:10
to the the thing and he goes he goes on
01:24:12
to show he goes this is how it works. JT
01:24:15
Willy Willie goes to parliament. He gets
01:24:16
the money. He gives it to JT. JT puts it
01:24:19
in the back AND THEN WELL HE GOES and
01:24:21
says this. So JT goes straight you you
01:24:24
apologize or it's defamation e no they
01:24:27
don't they don't do anything right
01:24:29
they did apologize. So ZB did the
01:24:32
apologize and guess who did the apology?
01:24:34
Mike Hoskings now now why why he's I
01:24:38
think why he's got the thing with me is
01:24:40
because I was I provided an affidavit.
01:24:42
Absolutely. Because you don't defame me
01:24:44
on uh there. So that all went to court
01:24:46
and next month they go, "Oh no, no, well
01:24:48
now Mike will apologize and there will
01:24:50
be a settlement and so so JT goes to
01:24:54
court. J goes to court and gets you know
01:24:58
they it's all confidential. I'll tell
01:25:00
you I'll fear how much he got
01:25:03
and then J says J says uh he goes uh
01:25:08
well that'll be GOING TO THE MAUI party
01:25:10
campaign. Thanks very much Mike Oskson."
01:25:12
Yeah, of course. Of course. Um I haven't
01:25:15
been on the radio ever since. I I know
01:25:17
who's the I know the the guy's got the
01:25:19
top show in the country. Of course I'd
01:25:20
go on.
01:25:21
>> And but do I have a reasonable
01:25:22
relationship with him? Well, I do this
01:25:24
Ed Zed me thing every Friday. I saw the
01:25:26
other week he come over and shook hands.
01:25:27
So the bugger won't have me on, you
01:25:29
know.
01:25:31
>> I think he I think he's nervous. That's
01:25:33
all I know. Yeah. Well, he look what
01:25:36
he's not my politics or anything, right?
01:25:38
But he's a professional interviewer and
01:25:40
I give him that. No, no doubt about it.
01:25:42
But yeah, old Heather, old Heather. And
01:25:44
you one thing with Heather, you old
01:25:46
South African e learning moldi. Did you
01:25:48
know that?
01:25:48
>> Is she?
01:25:49
>> She was talking. I couldn't believe it
01:25:51
about 3 years ago speaking moldy to me
01:25:53
and I was saying to some of my staff,
01:25:55
you fellas better. Watch out. Heather
01:25:56
can speak better moldy than you.
01:26:00
>> She she's uh she's good on her though.
01:26:03
E.
01:26:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But
01:26:05
>> she's talented. She geez, she's a good
01:26:07
broadcaster.
01:26:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. She's all right. I suppose
01:26:10
she she was, you know, so I had a I
01:26:12
don't know. Were you at the radio awards
01:26:13
when I um when I when I was a guest
01:26:15
speaker?
01:26:16
>> When was that? What? You were
01:26:17
>> three years ago. Two years. Yeah.
01:26:18
>> Did you see that one? When me and
01:26:19
Hoskins were having a crack at each
01:26:20
other. We had a bit of fun that night.
01:26:22
>> Yeah, it was good fun.
01:26:24
>> His wife wasn't too happy.
01:26:26
>> Oh, really? K. Well, cuz I said I want
01:26:28
to thank Kay for all her contributions
01:26:30
to Moldi Broadcasting.
01:26:32
>> And there was a big there was a big hush
01:26:34
in the in the Well, I thought I got to
01:26:36
have a crack at Mike. He keeps having a
01:26:37
crack at me. Hey, you know, and then he
01:26:40
comes on the stage, he goes, "Oh, here
01:26:41
come Willie." Shakes hands. So, all
01:26:42
good. Then she goes in the PE uh in the
01:26:45
paper and says, "Willie Jackson hates
01:26:47
parks, hates us who who don't support
01:26:49
Mar." I don't not at all. I'm just
01:26:51
having a crack at her because u Oh, her
01:26:54
husband had a crack at me. So, you know,
01:26:57
and I thought she was a good
01:26:58
broadcaster. And that was a good night
01:27:00
that night,
01:27:00
>> eh? [ __ ] These are great yarns. You're
01:27:02
a great storyteller. Why wouldn't they
01:27:04
want you on their on their on his show?
01:27:06
I reckon me and Hoskins would be great%
01:27:08
frustrated him out but you know but uh
01:27:11
you know particular it was funny
01:27:13
actually because I'll tell you another
01:27:15
story when I was broadcasting minister
01:27:16
we had this release and and and I did
01:27:19
something and I says you know I used to
01:27:20
work for radio live and I did a bit of
01:27:22
stuff for ZB and Hoskins goes on the
01:27:24
next day and he goes now Willie Jackson
01:27:26
said he did a bit of WORK FOR ZB. I
01:27:29
CAN'T RECALL him doing that, but we're
01:27:31
going to find out. And then they get
01:27:32
back in touch with us and and then my my
01:27:34
team said, "Well, will you come on and
01:27:36
explain when he did it?" And then and
01:27:38
they said, "Oh, we Mike would just like
01:27:41
to know what year did he work for Z3."
01:27:45
>> And then I said to Mike, "Don't say
01:27:47
nothing. Just say no, we're not saying
01:27:49
nothing."
01:27:50
>> And and then they go, "But Mike wants to
01:27:52
know." And they and and I said, "You
01:27:53
tell them just to say to Mike, Willy's a
01:27:56
liar." And uh uh and he's lying about
01:27:59
working with ZB. Tell him to say it.
01:28:01
Tell him to say it. But he didn't say he
01:28:03
didn't say it. Eh cuz cuz he cuz I
01:28:06
thought you say it. Well, THERE'S SOME
01:28:07
MORE DEFAMATION COMING COMING YOUR WAY,
01:28:10
SON. We'll see how good you are. You
01:28:12
know, so so cuz he could he said Woody
01:28:14
Jackson didn't work for Z. Oh, yes.
01:28:16
Well, no, I didn't actually, but I had a
01:28:18
little part-time. I I said I didn't have
01:28:20
a big job there, but I used to just do
01:28:22
do commentary. Holmes used to get me on.
01:28:25
Um and and and then I did couple I did
01:28:27
about 18 months of Kerry Woodham. She
01:28:29
had what was called Kerry's Kerry's Kef
01:28:31
and I used to be her political
01:28:32
contributor. So uh but but but I didn't
01:28:35
want to tell him that. But do I have
01:28:37
proof? Well, I used to get paid for it.
01:28:40
>> So is that proof?
01:28:41
>> Yeah, you got the receipts.
01:28:43
>> True. And Holmes used to have me on and
01:28:45
so so I wasn't saying I was a reporter
01:28:46
or anything, but he tried to and when
01:28:48
when Radio Live came along, I got
01:28:50
offered a midnight slot. I says, "Who
01:28:52
was running? Who was running?" Who was
01:28:54
the guy running um who was the main man
01:28:56
in ZB? He was the the overall Bill Prie
01:29:03
don't go to that radio live. You know,
01:29:04
come come over here. I said, "Well, what
01:29:06
slot you got?" Midnight to 600. I said,
01:29:08
"Get lost, dog." I said, he go I says,
01:29:12
"You only put the marries midnight to
01:29:13
6." And he goes, "Oh, you always pull
01:29:16
the Mauy trick. We'll get you we'll get
01:29:18
you an early. You got to do your time,
01:29:19
but don't go on radio life." I heard
01:29:21
you. They're trying to get John Tommy.
01:29:23
We can sit you up here in ZB. I says,
01:29:24
"Yeah, just put the M's on the midnight
01:29:26
shift, Bill. Go jump in the lake, you
01:29:28
know." But he good guy, Bill. Eight guy,
01:29:31
you know, but Bill knew. I mean, they
01:29:32
knew cuz Holmes used to do com I do
01:29:35
commentary with him when Holmes used to
01:29:37
have his TV show
01:29:38
>> in the ' 90s. I was his most um frequent
01:29:41
guest on his TV show in the ' 90s. And
01:29:44
then uh uh you know, it was great cuz in
01:29:46
those days you didn't have all the
01:29:47
social media. So you'd go on the home
01:29:49
show, you get like a million people
01:29:51
watching you. I'd be walking around
01:29:53
South Oakland the next day getting big
01:29:55
phone calls in there, you know, like
01:29:57
beeps from cars, going to the pub, free
01:29:59
beers, cuz you know, I would have been
01:30:01
on the home show about seven times in
01:30:02
one year, which is a lot, you know, six,
01:30:05
seven times, you know, talking about
01:30:06
marry this, marry that. I thought, well,
01:30:08
there's a there's a there's a real um
01:30:11
there's a real market there, eh? And so
01:30:14
yeah, so as for Yeah. Yeah. as for that
01:30:16
to ZB. But yeah, I respect them as as
01:30:19
broadcasters and all that sort of stuff.
01:30:20
Yeah.
01:30:21
>> You mentioned before something um that I
01:30:23
didn't find in any of my research, the
01:30:25
the heart issue. When when did you have
01:30:26
heart issues?
01:30:27
>> Oh, yeah. Um 200
01:30:31
2008
01:30:32
2008.
01:30:33
>> Ages ago. So you're in your like like
01:30:35
40s.
01:30:35
>> 47.
01:30:36
>> What happened?
01:30:37
>> You know, remember Len Brown went down?
01:30:40
>> Yeah.
01:30:40
>> Well, you know what Len Brown was up to,
01:30:42
eh? Are you with that lady in the in the
01:30:44
naughty naughty part room?
01:30:46
>> Yeah. Anyway, apparently he had the
01:30:47
heart. He like he died. He died not long
01:30:50
after. Might have been the shock of the
01:30:52
lady in the ni va room. Who knows? Um
01:30:55
there was a TV show on that day.
01:30:57
>> Anyway, the says the wife says to me, uh
01:31:00
she says to me, "Oh, you better go and
01:31:01
get checked, you know, cuz" and I says,
01:31:04
"Why?" She goes, "Oh, you're so busy.
01:31:05
You're doing radio, you know." I said,
01:31:07
"No, I'm all right. I'm all right." So,
01:31:08
I go and get checked. And the guy says,
01:31:10
"Oh, geez, your your your your heart's
01:31:12
pump. You're blocked like 85%." And I
01:31:15
says, "What?" And he goes, "You know,
01:31:17
you'll block." I said, "What does that
01:31:18
mean?" And he goes, "That means that you
01:31:20
could go any minute or or or or uh or
01:31:24
you could get lucky and live for the
01:31:26
next 25 years." And he goes, "But I'd
01:31:28
say you could go any minute, which means
01:31:30
I would say I mean," he says, "I
01:31:32
couldn't be sure, but I says, "Well, how
01:31:34
sure are you this?" And he goes, "Well,
01:31:35
I reckon 50/50, you know." He says,
01:31:37
"That's pretty high, isn't it? This is
01:31:39
this is the the doctor. He says he is he
01:31:41
says I says yeah but I could go 20 you
01:31:43
know marries they just go on and on and
01:31:44
on. He goes oh you better do something
01:31:46
he so wife tans and and and John JD cuz
01:31:50
we're on radio just he's Mr. Hard
01:31:52
expert. Oh, you better get it done next.
01:31:54
Why did I do a I do a bypass 2008? Sains
01:31:58
bone. You know Mark Sainsbury? Yes.
01:31:59
Sainsbone was doing close-up. We're good
01:32:02
mates. You know, I have seen him for a
01:32:03
long time.
01:32:04
>> We'll follow you into the surgery,
01:32:06
brother. And I says, "What for? I'm not
01:32:08
going on your stupid show." Cuz he took
01:32:10
over from poor He took over from Paul
01:32:11
Holmes. You see, he goes, "No, no,
01:32:13
brother. It'll be great. Willie Jackson
01:32:15
goes INTO I SAID, "BUT WHAT IF I DIE?
01:32:18
What if I die?" And he goes, "OH, EVEN
01:32:21
BETTER.
01:32:24
I SAID I SAID I said you're a bastard.
01:32:27
Same boat. You're a bastard. HE GOES ON.
01:32:30
DON'T DIE THOUGH. DON'T DIE. GO. You'd
01:32:31
like me. You'd like me. Oh jeez. That'll
01:32:33
be great. That'd be No, we I don't think
01:32:36
we'll be able to take the cameras in
01:32:37
when you have I says, "Of course you
01:32:38
won't be able to." But he goes, "No,
01:32:40
we'll interview you before you go in and
01:32:41
all that." Anyway, so I have the bypass.
01:32:44
We have the interview. It's all done.
01:32:47
Come out. He interviews me after. So
01:32:49
it's all good. And then I went home and
01:32:50
then I nearly died. All right. cuz I had
01:32:52
a I had a um infection.
01:32:54
>> Wow.
01:32:55
>> And I was bleeding and they shot me back
01:32:56
in like I I went I paid for this thing
01:32:59
privately. I didn't go public. I went
01:33:00
paid for it privately 2008. And um and
01:33:05
they got me in and and they got me just
01:33:07
in time. And then and and I and I said
01:33:10
to the doctor, "I pay all those
01:33:11
thousands of bucks and you I still
01:33:13
nearly died." And they had put me on
01:33:15
antibiotics for 3 weeks in the hospital.
01:33:18
for 3 weeks Oakland hospital and they
01:33:19
used to have to and they had to whack
01:33:20
the antibiotics in four times a day to
01:33:23
clean me out. Incredible. And then they
01:33:25
had to then had to do another opera
01:33:27
operation and uh they you know I tell
01:33:29
you I was exhausted. They'd be waking me
01:33:30
up at 3 in the morning. You got to take
01:33:31
your antibiotic, Mr. Jackson. It's
01:33:32
incredible. And so um so nearly and so
01:33:35
so so I got the um what's the infection
01:33:38
you get in the blood? Yeah. Uh I got I
01:33:41
got an infection and uh I was just so I
01:33:44
was so lucky and I come out and but old
01:33:46
sainsbow had his TV show and then he
01:33:48
plays the TV show because close-up you
01:33:49
know took up took over after Holmes and
01:33:52
then I I rung Sainsbow up and I says
01:33:54
yeah I nearly died. He goes, "What
01:33:55
happened?" And I and he says, "I'm I'm
01:33:57
in [ __ ] I'm in hospital, you know."
01:33:59
Oh, Jesus. SHALL WE DO AN UPDATE? I SAY,
01:34:01
"JUST STAY away from me, Saints, bro.
01:34:04
You're bad. You're bad luck." You know,
01:34:06
CUZ HE GOES, "WELL, Jackson came out of
01:34:08
the uh surgery really good." You know,
01:34:10
we done an up. They showed me talking
01:34:12
and then he then run the next, "Oh,
01:34:15
we've got to do an update." I was foster
01:34:21
though, you're 64.
01:34:22
>> I'm 64 now. Yeah. You got good energy.
01:34:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny, you
01:34:27
know, my rugby injuries are the, you
01:34:29
know, I was saying to saying to my my
01:34:32
wife, geez, you know, you know, in the
01:34:34
last year, I got a sore foot
01:34:37
start playing up, then the hip starts
01:34:38
playing up. That's been playing up for
01:34:40
the last three years. Then the right
01:34:41
shoulder plays up, then the left
01:34:43
shoulder plays up, then my eyes, I've
01:34:45
got to get some cataracts done. And I
01:34:46
was thinking, what's happening to me?
01:34:48
you know, you know, you go from, you
01:34:50
know, like because I was walking all the
01:34:51
time before, but um but generally you're
01:34:54
all right. But it's uh it's funny as you
01:34:56
age. E but I'm inspired by by guys like
01:35:01
Winston,
01:35:02
>> you know, Winston is I mean he's 18, you
01:35:05
know, he's 16 years older than me. He's
01:35:07
incredible. Jones, he's six. Shane, 66.
01:35:09
And you know I think age is just a uh
01:35:12
you know like like like it's just a
01:35:14
figure I think because um for me people
01:35:17
talk about retiring at 65 and all that.
01:35:19
I couldn't imagine retiring whether you
01:35:21
know I I if I'm not doing politics I'll
01:35:24
I'll be involved in my organization you
01:35:26
know which is Monaco urban mi authority
01:35:27
got our own we got our own mai and I
01:35:29
love the work we do love working with
01:35:31
the the people. So, you know, I couldn't
01:35:33
imagine just retiring, you know, too
01:35:35
much.
01:35:35
>> You got to do something. Eh, I had um
01:35:37
Lori Mains on the podcast recently.
01:35:39
Yeah. 79. He's in great shape. Gets up
01:35:41
in the morning, does some exercises,
01:35:43
play shoots his own age in golf.
01:35:45
>> My favorite. He was my favorite coach,
01:35:46
you know.
01:35:46
>> Is he?
01:35:47
>> Oh, yeah. Well, cuz, you know, I was a
01:35:48
sports broadcaster, too. You see, for
01:35:49
years. I always used to stick up for
01:35:51
Mains cuz all of the Oaklanders love
01:35:53
John Hart,
01:35:54
>> but Mains gave guys like Frank Bunson
01:35:56
that a chance and and Aaron Penny and
01:35:59
Eric Rush. And Mains was a great coach.
01:36:02
God, he was a bit hard on um the the box
01:36:05
coach.
01:36:07
I mean, he's sort of dishonest and
01:36:09
everything. I thought, Lori, you know,
01:36:13
>> he's very dishonest. Not a nice person.
01:36:14
I don't want to get into it cuz I follow
01:36:17
I'm I'm a I'm a rugby nut. Total rugby
01:36:20
nut, you know. I love I love rugby. Um
01:36:23
my grandfather was an all black, you
01:36:25
know. Uh and and I I know I feel I know
01:36:28
more about rugby than just about anyone,
01:36:30
you know. So, so, so, so I, so, and I
01:36:33
used to, you know, I used to travel
01:36:35
overseas commentating. I went to South
01:36:37
Africa in 94. I used to follow them, go
01:36:39
with the M. So, I done done all that
01:36:41
sort sort of stuff. So, for me, even
01:36:44
now, rugy's my relaxation. Uh, and and
01:36:47
so there's certain people who stood out
01:36:48
for me and Mains was always one of them.
01:36:50
You know, this Razer though, God, he's
01:36:52
he's you better get in him in here if he
01:36:55
loses next week. My goodness. Something
01:36:57
wrong there, isn't it? Do you follow
01:36:58
rugby?
01:36:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. closely.
01:37:00
>> Oh yeah. Well, we got a problem with the
01:37:02
coach.
01:37:03
>> The best coaches they should have had
01:37:05
was Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown. They
01:37:08
would they would have been fantastic.
01:37:09
Dave Renie is another great coach.
01:37:12
>> Um you know we got we got coaches uh
01:37:16
it's just it's just Wayne Smith is
01:37:18
fantastic.
01:37:19
>> Yeah, I just had Warren Gatland on as
01:37:21
well. He's just he's just kicking
01:37:22
kicking at the beach and
01:37:24
>> Gats is good. He was real good. He just
01:37:25
got a bad run with Wales. Yeah, I've
01:37:27
always been a fan of his team,
01:37:29
>> you know. Um, his his guy who took over
01:37:32
from the Chiefs is one of our mates.
01:37:34
He's gone over to Monster now. I I think
01:37:36
it's over Monster. He he to he was the
01:37:38
Chiefs coach before.
01:37:39
>> Yeah.
01:37:40
>> Yeah. Um,
01:37:42
one of our one of our crew. So, Gatlin
01:37:44
was um I mean, he was a hell of a coach,
01:37:46
but he just started having a bad run in
01:37:48
the last couple of years. But when we
01:37:49
have those sort of coaches, you got to
01:37:51
ask and Joe Smith, I mean, fabulous
01:37:53
coach. And then this guy comes. I don't
01:37:56
know what Ray is doing. I think he lacks
01:37:58
you got to have a bit of nerve. Eh,
01:38:00
Mine's had nerve, you know. You got to
01:38:02
try stuff. Maine's put Mark Ellis at
01:38:04
first five. Never worked. It never work.
01:38:07
Mark's better at the center. No, but I'm
01:38:09
saying you got to This is what this this
01:38:10
this Rushy does. You try stuff. You
01:38:13
know, he just goes with Bowden at first
01:38:15
5A. Why would you do that sort of stuff?
01:38:17
You know, obviously it's not working. um
01:38:20
you know he just he he got to go with
01:38:23
DMC and you got to you got to take some
01:38:24
risks with DMC and then bring Ruben Love
01:38:26
on and try guys. Hey that's what the
01:38:28
great coaches do. So I I think what this
01:38:31
Razer needs is he needs some support.
01:38:34
They need Wayne Smith with them all the
01:38:35
time or get him out. The other thing is
01:38:38
Hardy is clearly the best captain. Hey
01:38:41
>> oh 100%.
01:38:42
>> I like Scott Barrett good player that he
01:38:44
is but I wouldn't even put Scott in the
01:38:46
SC side right now. You got two better
01:38:48
locks than him, you know. But Arty is
01:38:50
just fantastic. But, you know, and it's
01:38:53
the or we get crazy. The all backs are
01:38:55
still pretty good, but that box is just
01:38:57
better, you know. But we're probably
01:38:58
second or third,
01:38:59
>> you know.
01:39:00
>> Jeez, you're passionate, eh? I love it.
01:39:02
>> So animated about it. What? Um, yeah.
01:39:04
What's your definition of happiness
01:39:05
these days?
01:39:06
>> Oh, I love it. I just love it with my um
01:39:08
being with the wife and and um and enjoy
01:39:12
it with my my I enjoy with my kids and
01:39:14
my moapunas, you know. We got about
01:39:16
eight moaponas. Eight, I think. Yeah.
01:39:18
And
01:39:19
>> what what sort of age range
01:39:20
>> from
01:39:22
baby
01:39:23
>> to 16?
01:39:25
>> Yeah.
01:39:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. Baby to 16. Yeah. So, so
01:39:28
it's just fabulous. And so I I enjoy
01:39:31
enjoy it with them and I enjoy with my
01:39:33
wife TS and re and so they're my
01:39:36
relaxation enjoying stuff. And then
01:39:39
rugby is also relaxation. But if they
01:39:40
play bad
01:39:41
>> I don't know. You seem pretty stressed
01:39:42
out about starts irritating me and I get
01:39:45
angry and I start watching the league.
01:39:47
You know, I've been watching that Pedro
01:39:48
lately. That'd be fabulous. E, you been
01:39:49
watching the Broncos?
01:39:51
>> I watched the semi-final over the over
01:39:53
the weekend. That was an amazing game.
01:39:55
>> And I I love watching the league cuz you
01:39:56
see all those moldy boys playing. You
01:39:57
see all those multi boys who've been
01:39:59
over there and so watch Melbourne
01:40:01
against the Broncos coming up this
01:40:02
weekend. It's been going to be great.
01:40:03
But those warriors drive me nuts. Oh,
01:40:06
they're hopeless.
01:40:08
>> Yeah, they break your heart. Oh, I
01:40:10
always say to all my mates, you guys are
01:40:12
mad.
01:40:13
>> They go up the W. I go, oh my god. You
01:40:16
know, I say, you know,
01:40:17
>> are you not a fan of the up the
01:40:19
movement?
01:40:19
>> No, they drive me crazy because
01:40:23
>> I thought you guys they all my mates say
01:40:26
Dale Husband. I don't know if you know
01:40:27
Dale Husband. I says they're so they so
01:40:29
let us down. You know, they're the
01:40:31
biggest disappointments around, but I
01:40:32
suppose they're good. You know, we've
01:40:33
been going since 1995. I went to the
01:40:35
first game
01:40:37
>> 1995. We never won a premiership and
01:40:40
we've been around longer than Melbourne
01:40:41
and the Broncos.
01:40:42
>> Oh,
01:40:43
>> yeah. 30 30 I didn't know it was 30
01:40:44
years. That's a long time.
01:40:46
>> Yeah.
01:40:47
>> Um, do you like yourself? Are you
01:40:49
someone that you'd want to have a beer
01:40:50
with?
01:40:52
>> I think so.
01:40:52
>> Yeah. I I think so. I mean, I just I'm
01:40:56
just me. I just uh I like I like people,
01:40:58
you know, and um I think I'm okay. It's
01:41:01
a funny thing that uh depression stuff.
01:41:04
B. I um I've never really gone through
01:41:06
it, but I've watched a lot of people go
01:41:08
through it. I can understand it a bit.
01:41:10
>> That's why I asked before about the um
01:41:12
the um Ghostbusters stuff, which um
01:41:15
>> that was a test. That was a real test.
01:41:16
>> Yeah. Like if if if you can stay strong
01:41:19
and resilient mentally through that,
01:41:21
then you can survive most things. I
01:41:22
>> think that was a real test. And um
01:41:25
>> yeah. Uh yeah. Yeah. But I always, you
01:41:30
know, I like to keep busy. And one of
01:41:31
the challenges of being an o in
01:41:33
opposition and you're not in government
01:41:35
and that it's keeping busy. So I like to
01:41:38
keep that's why when Oxford came along
01:41:40
that was great to go along and and I'm
01:41:42
organizing things uh for our party and
01:41:45
and I'm a real supporter of Chippy you
01:41:47
know Chris Hipkins. I'm really proud of
01:41:49
him. You know I I don't think he gets a
01:41:51
fair crack from uh from the media and
01:41:54
all that. You know I think he's good man
01:41:56
and solid and and I and I think he can
01:41:58
be the prime minister again. you know, I
01:42:00
I I get a lot of pleasure out of
01:42:02
supporting people like that and bringing
01:42:04
young ones through, you know, so um
01:42:06
that's what, you know, I got to be busy
01:42:08
all the time, you know. So, you know,
01:42:10
are you
01:42:10
>> I can't just sit there and look at the
01:42:12
bling of TV all day and night.
01:42:14
>> Are you are you a goal setter? Like,
01:42:15
have you got goals for like the the rest
01:42:17
of your 60s or your 70s or you just see
01:42:19
what sort of comes your way?
01:42:20
>> No, no. I sort of have goals, you know.
01:42:22
I've always had goals in in life. if I
01:42:25
had goals from the time I failed at
01:42:26
school till you know moving all the way
01:42:29
through because I I remember um you sort
01:42:32
of get written off I you know you get
01:42:34
written off at different times and and
01:42:36
that's what inspires me really people
01:42:38
who write you off or you know I never
01:42:40
forget um working in the works and I was
01:42:43
like 18 19 and this guy said oh you're
01:42:44
just a laborer you're not going to do
01:42:46
you're not going to go anywhere I say
01:42:49
you think so because he was a meat
01:42:50
inspector and yeah you know because that
01:42:53
was the time you M and you know that
01:42:55
that sort of stuff inspires me. It's
01:42:57
like
01:42:58
>> fuel.
01:42:58
>> It fuels you.
01:43:00
>> And and on social media, the haters who
01:43:03
hate who who hate
01:43:05
>> Maldi so much and and and I was thinking
01:43:07
about and and I don't think that's a
01:43:09
huge group,
01:43:11
but it's a significant group, you know,
01:43:13
and that's why I said with David, guys
01:43:15
like David Seymour, he fuels that group.
01:43:18
I'm not saying he's part of it. I don't
01:43:19
think he's ugly like that. He can be
01:43:21
quite cordial, you know,
01:43:22
>> but he doesn't know it that that some of
01:43:24
those supporters, they just so hate us.
01:43:26
And uh they just I just think they want
01:43:28
us to die, you know. They just want us
01:43:31
They do. Well, I I could show you emails
01:43:33
for the last 25 years. I've had threats
01:43:36
you wouldn't believe. Uh so many times I
01:43:39
I when I was on radio, I'd say, "Here's
01:43:41
my phone number. I'll wait for you
01:43:42
here." You know,
01:43:44
you know, I DON'T KNOW. I CAN'T STAND
01:43:46
people who threaten you. you know, and
01:43:47
cuz cuz I've
01:43:49
>> you might not believe this, but when
01:43:50
I've been out there over the years, and
01:43:52
I suppose I've got had a pretty high
01:43:54
profile,
01:43:55
>> I never been threatened by anybody. I've
01:43:57
never been abused or insulted, believe
01:43:58
it or not.
01:43:59
>> No, I I do believe it. I do believe it.
01:44:01
>> And I walk to pubs. I meet probably more
01:44:03
people than any, you know. Yeah. I just,
01:44:06
you know, people come shake hands. I I'm
01:44:07
I'm sure that I go into places and
01:44:09
people don't like me, but you know,
01:44:10
Kiwis are pretty respectful. If they
01:44:12
don't like, you know, they keep a
01:44:13
distance. I I I'd do the same, too. I
01:44:16
wouldn't go over to someone and say,
01:44:17
"Oh, I hate you." You know, it happened
01:44:20
once. Actually, it's only happened once.
01:44:21
Ellie Moore and I were doing a show in
01:44:23
Christ Church and this guy came up and
01:44:25
he was looking at me and he started
01:44:26
doing sign language to me and he started
01:44:28
saying, "I don't like you." And I and I
01:44:32
said, "What' you say? I don't like you."
01:44:36
And I said, "What'd you say, mate?" And
01:44:38
we were just about to start the show and
01:44:39
Ellie and I go I says, "Just stay
01:44:41
there." I took my headphones off, stood
01:44:42
up, and I went over. I was going to
01:44:43
crack him. And he ran off and I chased
01:44:46
him.
01:44:47
And I chased him. I couldn't get him.
01:44:50
>> You weren't actually gonna crack.
01:44:52
>> I was gonna crack him when he got on my
01:44:53
nerves.
01:44:53
>> When was the last time you threw a
01:44:55
punch?
01:44:55
>> Oh, a few years now. Few miles, but few
01:44:58
years now. But uh you know, yeah. But um
01:45:02
I'm going to crack him. I was so angry
01:45:04
with him, you know. Um I was so angry
01:45:07
with him, I tell you. But yeah, that's
01:45:08
about the only like I go into pubs,
01:45:10
restaurant, and I always have good Kiwis
01:45:12
always coming over. So I always think
01:45:14
that's why I say to my son who we talked
01:45:16
about hiku is his name
01:45:19
never worry about those sort of thing
01:45:20
and I told my daughter after heather
01:45:21
said that thing about Oxford um never
01:45:24
worry about them we know what we can do
01:45:26
they just want us to die they classify
01:45:28
people you know they they look at people
01:45:29
like me and they go oh he's dumb um
01:45:32
mold's a d you know can't he can't talk
01:45:34
oh he oh look at that Jack Tman you know
01:45:37
they never give you any bit of credit
01:45:39
and that sort of thing I always say we
01:45:40
use that sort of thing to fuel us
01:45:42
>> 100%
01:45:42
>> yeah you You know, we we'll see who's
01:45:44
dumb,
01:45:45
>> you know. Oh, he's a radical. He doesn't
01:45:47
hate SP. Oh, cut it out. I love parkour.
01:45:49
I got a park. Um, [ __ ] papa too. Where
01:45:52
do you think the Jackson side came from?
01:45:54
You know,
01:45:54
>> so so I'm really proud I'm really proud
01:45:57
of Maldi and Parker in this country. I
01:45:59
think we got a lot to be proud of in
01:46:00
this country.
01:46:01
>> Yeah.
01:46:03
Yeah. Things seem quite divided at the
01:46:04
moment, but for the most part, people
01:46:06
are good, eh?
01:46:06
>> Yeah. I mean, David will tell you that
01:46:09
things are divided. Yeah. That's because
01:46:10
of of his his his crackpot mob, you
01:46:13
know, who like if you you know, he'll
01:46:15
say of this this nonsense about a
01:46:17
partnership. What why is it nonsense?
01:46:20
You know, go to auntie far and look at
01:46:22
how they work on the beaches with with
01:46:24
Oaklanders in New Zealand. Go to two far
01:46:26
and you'll see how how they work. You
01:46:28
know, like we've got a great partnership
01:46:30
and relationship. That's what if you if
01:46:32
you look at the issues that upset New
01:46:34
Zealanders, you'll find that mai issues
01:46:36
are very low down.
01:46:38
>> Yeah.
01:46:39
So David and go, "Oh, it's terrible this
01:46:40
co-governance. It's terrible this
01:46:42
partnership." What's terrible? Every
01:46:45
prime minister where the National Labor
01:46:46
has backed partnership since ' 87.
01:46:49
>> If it was so bad, why isn't it up there
01:46:51
when you look at the the issues in front
01:46:52
of New Zealanders? No. The issues in
01:46:55
front of New Zealanders are cost of
01:46:56
living, hey, health, housing,
01:46:59
>> jobs, education. Ma Maldi and Park, our
01:47:03
relationships way down the list. It's
01:47:05
just some of Seymour's rednecks who who
01:47:07
want it to be a big deal. And Winston's
01:47:10
and some of Winston's nut jobs, you
01:47:12
know, and uh um and and Kiwis don't care
01:47:15
about that. They they they I'm as I say,
01:47:18
I keep saying this. I said this at Labor
01:47:20
Party conference. I think a lot of the
01:47:22
so-called middle of New Zealand or you
01:47:24
want to call it middle New Zealand, but
01:47:25
I'm saying average New Zealanders, I
01:47:27
think, has changed. There's been a
01:47:28
change. We should embrace that. And and
01:47:31
and they're embracing Maldi culture. You
01:47:33
go to Maldi Wananga universities. More
01:47:36
Pacquiao are learning Mai than the
01:47:38
Maldis. That's great. You know, that's
01:47:41
what you know I I have Pquia people.
01:47:43
They got their kids relationships with
01:47:46
Maldi. Their kids are learning Mai, but
01:47:48
even Pacquiao couples. So many of them
01:47:50
are they're so proud of everything.
01:47:52
That's why I'm there's a lot to be proud
01:47:53
of. Nothing to fear, nothing to be
01:47:55
scared of. and uh and David and them are
01:47:58
making such a load of uh uh talk such a
01:48:01
load of nonsense in terms of oh New
01:48:03
Zealand's going backwards since this
01:48:05
partnership thing and we're on edge.
01:48:06
Well, you saw what New Zealanders
01:48:08
thought about it. 100,000 of them march.
01:48:11
It might have been 80,000.
01:48:13
It was the biggest march in the history
01:48:15
of New Zealand. That's New Zealand.
01:48:17
>> I don't I don't see Where's all your
01:48:19
people, Mr. Seymour? I tell you where
01:48:21
they are on social media. The gutless
01:48:24
wonders.
01:48:26
You're so passionate, eh? You're so
01:48:28
passionate.
01:48:28
>> Well, they think they can scare you. You
01:48:30
see, you know, I mean, I I I I've been
01:48:32
getting I I I you know, I'm not too bad
01:48:34
on the social media, you know. I I I
01:48:36
haven't done much, you know. I I only do
01:48:38
Facebook, but I got about 40,000
01:48:39
followers, so it's not bad, you know,
01:48:41
and they're all I don't really do the
01:48:43
Instagram and the other ones. I say just
01:48:45
do Facebook, you know, and I just build
01:48:46
it up. Oh, that's not I said, "Is that
01:48:48
enough amount?" Got about 40,000
01:48:50
followers. Not too bad. and they're all
01:48:52
activists and they're not, you know, and
01:48:53
they they they're Labor Party people,
01:48:55
they're Green people, they're multi-
01:48:57
party people and they just want an
01:48:59
avenue to talk about the cost of living.
01:49:02
They're not worried about relationships
01:49:04
and partnership. New Zealanders have
01:49:06
told David Seymour what they think of
01:49:08
his treaty principles bill. That young
01:49:10
fellow Henry even thought it was very
01:49:12
division. That's that's the division.
01:49:14
>> Yeah.
01:49:15
>> Um jeez, when you eventually finish with
01:49:18
politics, it's going to be a huge loss,
01:49:20
eh? Right. We need characters like you.
01:49:23
>> People that are prepared to Yeah. speak
01:49:25
to their mind, shoot from the hip.
01:49:27
>> What would you say your biggest flaws
01:49:28
are?
01:49:30
>> You know, when I was younger, I I think
01:49:32
I I I was bit too wild, you know. I like
01:49:37
I was, you know, cuz you're young, you
01:49:39
know, like when I was younger and I was
01:49:41
a bit unforgiving. I was a bit so you
01:49:43
know you gota remember I'm 64 now but
01:49:45
when I when I was 24 you know I get a
01:49:47
punch up at the drop of a hat you know
01:49:49
because you know you're although I was a
01:49:50
talker in terms of um in in in terms of
01:49:54
um bouncers I was the main talker but I
01:49:57
I didn't mind having a punchup I quite
01:49:59
enjoyed that you know it was sort of
01:50:01
part and parcel of being South Oakland I
01:50:03
thought oh you know you go you're just
01:50:05
men you know you go and settle things go
01:50:07
and settle it outside so the but but I
01:50:09
think through my 20s and 30s I I was
01:50:12
I I do think I was a bit too short, you
01:50:14
know, in terms of my temper and like
01:50:16
like look I do you my uncle Sid used to
01:50:18
negotiate. He he used to give us tips.
01:50:21
He'd always say controlled negotiation.
01:50:23
I used to lose it a bit, you know, but I
01:50:26
think as I got came through um uh uh you
01:50:29
know, as I got older, you know, you just
01:50:31
get better and better, you know, you
01:50:32
train yourself, you know. I I trained
01:50:34
myself in the media, you know, because I
01:50:36
thought, oh, there's open openings there
01:50:38
in ter in terms of flaws.
01:50:41
Um I I I I think that uh you know, I you
01:50:46
know, I try I try I try and read as much
01:50:49
as I can. I think sometimes I and I'm
01:50:51
pretty good sometimes so I always try
01:50:52
and read something different all the
01:50:54
time that could be a flaw for me you
01:50:55
know you know because you want to know
01:50:57
about everything you know so I thought
01:50:58
right what's that Seymour really saying
01:51:00
you know or you know what's happening in
01:51:02
that you know what's Nicola Wallace
01:51:04
really saying you know um because I
01:51:06
don't I don't have um the the education
01:51:09
that others have had but I've learned my
01:51:11
education has been through life you know
01:51:13
so I mean it's for others to say what my
01:51:16
flaws are some some might might say I'm
01:51:18
just too quick off the hip sometimes I
01:51:20
don't know, might be to, you know,
01:51:21
shoot, you know. So that I think that
01:51:24
that was probably one of my flaws, but I
01:51:26
tried to pull it back a bit and always
01:51:28
try to um be supportive. I always try to
01:51:31
be supportive of mates, particularly in
01:51:32
when you're in labor.
01:51:34
>> Well, um I had Sir Steve Hansen on the
01:51:36
podcast a couple of months ago and he's
01:51:37
got a theory that um for most people
01:51:39
their greatest strength is also their
01:51:40
greatest weakness.
01:51:42
>> Um so for you maybe that's um speaking
01:51:44
your mind.
01:51:44
>> Yeah, might might be. You know, cuz it
01:51:46
can get it can get you into
01:51:48
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Well, here's
01:51:50
the thing. Some people never speak their
01:51:51
mind.
01:51:53
>> Some people never speak their mind. And
01:51:55
and then I look at it's funny. My my
01:51:57
wife and I, we're so funny our kids.
01:52:00
They hate coming to dinner with us
01:52:02
sometimes cuz if something's wrong,
01:52:04
we'll tell the waiter. But I don't I
01:52:06
don't I don't believe in disrespecting
01:52:09
waiters or or anything like that. I I
01:52:10
got a lot of respect. But but if um you
01:52:13
know, but if the kind if the food's not
01:52:15
good cuz But most people will just
01:52:17
accept that.
01:52:18
I never do. I thought particularly if
01:52:20
you go to a restaurant and you're paying
01:52:21
big bucks, right? And so our kids, they
01:52:23
just say, "Oh no, oh no, please don't
01:52:25
make a scene. I don't make a scene." You
01:52:27
know, so so you know, you know, um I
01:52:31
mean the thing is that things can, you
01:52:33
know, I've been in situations like that
01:52:36
when I was younger and you know, next
01:52:38
the whole thing just blows right up here
01:52:39
in a punch house. But that so I've
01:52:41
pulled back from all that sort of stuff.
01:52:43
Hey, you know, but uh um uh you know, I
01:52:46
think Steve Henson's right. Sometimes
01:52:48
you you got to learn to curb yourself,
01:52:50
too. I think I think we all do. You got
01:52:52
to know um uh you know, and the last
01:52:55
thing you should say, my daughter, I
01:52:57
said to my daughter, you know, there was
01:52:59
this MP once, what's his name? She goes,
01:53:02
I said, you know what he did, babe? And
01:53:04
she goes, what? He went in and he said,
01:53:06
do you know who I am?
01:53:08
And she goes, don't ever say that. And I
01:53:11
go, I says, "It's tempting sometimes,
01:53:13
you
01:53:16
know who that was?" I'm trying to
01:53:17
remember. It was one of John John Keys
01:53:18
MPs.
01:53:19
>> Oh, was it? Oh my god, that's so cringe.
01:53:21
>> Yeah, I know.
01:53:22
>> That's the worst.
01:53:22
>> Key sacked him straight away. You know,
01:53:25
>> you know, you know, do you know who I
01:53:26
am?
01:53:27
>> Well, if you have to say that, then
01:53:28
clearly they they either don't or they
01:53:30
do and they don't care.
01:53:31
>> They don't care. And and then the other
01:53:33
thing is you got to be I think you got
01:53:35
to be humble. play. You know, I think
01:53:37
you have to be humble and people got to
01:53:39
keep their, you know, I think it's easy
01:53:40
to get famous in New Zealand because
01:53:42
this is a small country,
01:53:44
>> but you don't want to be um so, you
01:53:46
know, sometimes, you know, you just I I
01:53:48
say to people when they as they go
01:53:51
through life, I just don't get too
01:53:52
carried away just cuz you think you're a
01:53:54
big shot here at Parliament. Most people
01:53:55
don't watch Parliament,
01:53:58
you know, like they don't know. They
01:54:00
don't even know what we're doing down
01:54:01
there. E, you got to prove yourself
01:54:03
everywhere. And then don't even think
01:54:05
you're you're hot because most people
01:54:06
live their lives in a bubble and they
01:54:09
don't. So you know you know and I say to
01:54:13
people you might think everyone knows
01:54:14
you but they don't.
01:54:16
>> Yeah. I used to I used to talk with
01:54:17
Holmes about some of that stuff. Oh I
01:54:19
got quite I got to know Holmes quite
01:54:21
well.
01:54:21
>> Yeah. He's a guy that's proper famous
01:54:23
like everyone in New Zealand knew who he
01:54:24
was.
01:54:25
>> Well no even he says so. He says like we
01:54:27
we says it's funny though sometimes
01:54:29
April you know you know you think
01:54:31
everyone knows you and then I says I
01:54:33
never forget I said I I told him the
01:54:35
story I did this great show with you and
01:54:37
they rated through the roof and I went
01:54:39
over to this place the next day and it
01:54:41
was all moldy and somebody was at the re
01:54:43
door and I walked in and I go and you
01:54:45
know I was feeling quite good cuz it was
01:54:46
such I was a star and the woman goes yes
01:54:49
who are you really
01:54:54
so much of my bloody home show last I
01:54:56
you know you think of m you know say
01:54:58
never get a a big head in this game e
01:55:01
you know cuz cuz um you know uh and I
01:55:05
say that to my crew who are with me cuz
01:55:07
I when we go out there oh everyone knows
01:55:08
you say no they don't you guys got to
01:55:10
stop thinking that some people do you
01:55:12
know it's not like that I said you guys
01:55:15
think that cuz a few people know you you
01:55:17
know it's most Kiwis they just want to
01:55:18
get on their business and even if they
01:55:20
do know you they don't want to annoy you
01:55:22
and so I think one of the keys and
01:55:24
Hansen would say it too whether you're
01:55:25
an more black or politician minister, if
01:55:27
you don't stay humble, man, you're
01:55:29
you're uh it's a it's a um you're going
01:55:32
to go down a tube, eh? You're going to
01:55:33
go down cuz I think that's one of the
01:55:35
problems. If if you walk in and say, "Do
01:55:37
you know who I am?" You might be the top
01:55:39
politician radio who doesn't, you know,
01:55:41
and I'm inspired by people who are
01:55:43
humble, you know, I tell you people like
01:55:45
Michael Jones, you know,
01:55:48
good very good friend, really good
01:55:50
friend, you know, went to the Pacifica
01:55:53
game and been mates for many years.
01:55:55
inspired by people like that. Humble,
01:55:58
lovely seeing Ronnie Clark with his boy,
01:56:00
you know, and you know, I know Ronnie,
01:56:02
lovely man. And I thought, oh, look at
01:56:04
that. That's what makes me happy when I
01:56:06
see that sort of stuff. You know, it's
01:56:08
really really good. You know,
01:56:09
>> you just said nice things about Michael
01:56:11
Jones and Ronnie Clark without um
01:56:12
throwing in any jabs.
01:56:14
>> Well, they so they're so lovely though.
01:56:16
They're so straight. They like they're
01:56:18
almost perfect. They old old Michael.
01:56:21
Michael's just so terrific, you know.
01:56:23
Really proud of what he does. and you
01:56:25
know um you know life fun. No, you know
01:56:28
I mean he he's a good friend. He's not I
01:56:31
mean he's the bro and all that but he's
01:56:33
not one of the bros who going to have
01:56:34
beer sort of thing. You know he's saying
01:56:35
he's too perfect.
01:56:37
>> Michael's so perfect. E you know
01:56:39
>> this has been such a great chat out of
01:56:41
all the um politicians I've had on. This
01:56:43
has definitely been my favorite by far.
01:56:44
Definitely the most laughs.
01:56:45
>> Got to have laugh. So you got you got to
01:56:47
laugh in life though Dom. You know cuz
01:56:49
if you can't if if you're not laughing
01:56:51
in a relationship she's all over.
01:56:54
Okay. If you're not laughing in a show
01:56:56
like this and not a very good show, you
01:56:58
know, I I I think humor is everything.
01:57:00
Eh,
01:57:01
>> it's great how you get on with your
01:57:02
wife, eh? You guys
01:57:04
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. We run a business
01:57:05
together. Yeah. Fantastic. That's great.
01:57:07
>> If say um you weren't in the room and
01:57:10
your six moapuna were in here, what what
01:57:12
are three words you'd like them to say
01:57:14
about you to describe you?
01:57:16
>> Who the mockup is?
01:57:17
>> Yeah,
01:57:18
>> I think I've got eight mockaputters.
01:57:19
>> Oh, eight. My bad.
01:57:21
>> Three words?
01:57:22
>> Yeah. that
01:57:24
>> like yeah like three three words to
01:57:26
someone
01:57:27
>> coral they call me koro
01:57:29
>> koro is fun that's all that's enough
01:57:31
>> because I like to have a bit of fun with
01:57:32
them
01:57:33
>> what about three different words like
01:57:34
fun so fun
01:57:36
>> three different words is what
01:57:37
>> like like fun so fun could be one
01:57:42
>> okay I don't know
01:57:44
>> like a legacy sort of thing
01:57:45
>> oh like a legacy
01:57:48
oh
01:57:50
um
01:57:52
the I I always say to my mukapunas to
01:57:54
make me proud, you know, and and and you
01:57:58
know, they got to they got to do stuff.
01:57:59
So So So they always know they have to
01:58:02
do well, you know, and uh and so I
01:58:04
always put that sort of pressure on
01:58:06
them. Um but you know, it's about the
01:58:08
balance. So So it's just it's
01:58:11
particularly with their mildy side, you
01:58:12
know. We I tried to do well with my
01:58:15
kids, you know, like like my boy who you
01:58:17
talked about, he you know, we brought
01:58:19
him up. He we weren't talking English to
01:58:21
him till he was about 11, you know,
01:58:22
>> you know, so we just spoke Maldi to him.
01:58:24
We're not not that we're great Maldi
01:58:25
speakers, but you know, I I want to I'm
01:58:28
so proud of our people uh you know, you
01:58:31
know, and uh and my moaponist, my young
01:58:34
ones, they still don't talk English with
01:58:36
me and you know, so Wow. So, so there's
01:58:39
one, two, I've got one, two, three, four
01:58:42
of them who just speak Maldi too, you
01:58:44
know. So, that's really No, it's really
01:58:45
good. So, it's like um you know, my my
01:58:48
my legacy is about um I would like them
01:58:51
to think that, you know, it's about
01:58:55
being proud being proud of of who you
01:58:57
are. And and and and I also think they,
01:59:01
you know, I like helping people. So, you
01:59:03
never you never give up. You don't don't
01:59:05
give up. never give up, you know,
01:59:06
because uh um I think that you can have
01:59:09
barriers in front of you in life, but
01:59:11
you can you can do anything if you want
01:59:13
if you want to, you know, you shouldn't
01:59:14
you should you should if if you know
01:59:17
like I said last week, my friend lost
01:59:19
the election who we were in Oakuckland
01:59:21
and I said to him, don't worry about it.
01:59:23
We all losers, you know, we all we all
01:59:26
lose and you know, through adversity you
01:59:28
you you grow. Winston lost. Shane Jones
01:59:31
has never won an electorate. John
01:59:32
Tahades lost. I lost. We're all losers.
01:59:36
Don't worry about it because uh through
01:59:38
through that adversity, you'll be
01:59:40
strong. Yeah.
01:59:40
>> So, you got to learn through adversity.
01:59:42
If you just collapse and fall apart,
01:59:44
then you probably were in the wrong game
01:59:46
anyway.
01:59:46
>> Yeah. [ __ ] It's been a hell of a life.
01:59:48
That um thick 14, 15 year old at school,
01:59:52
you know, school kid. What would he make
01:59:54
of the life that you've had? You know, I
01:59:57
I I
02:00:00
it's funny, you know, when I was a kid,
02:00:01
even when I failed at school, um I
02:00:03
always thought I'd do all right. I
02:00:05
always I even though I failed, I thought
02:00:07
I'm not going to I'm going to change. I
02:00:09
I just I was totally determined to
02:00:11
because I thought, "Oh, I'm failed at
02:00:13
school, but I ain't going to be standing
02:00:15
in a factory all my life. I I can
02:00:17
promise myself that." And and one thing
02:00:19
I I knew I could do was I wasn't a bad
02:00:22
speaker, you know, and I thought, you
02:00:24
know, the old voice, the old mouth might
02:00:26
be able to carry me uh into into
02:00:28
positions and into opportunities. And it
02:00:30
was and and it has been able to I've
02:00:33
been able to do that. But I'm also
02:00:34
driven by, you know, I like to help
02:00:37
people. I love supporting the underdog.
02:00:39
I love advocating for people and helping
02:00:41
people in their lives. And it's been a
02:00:43
privilege to do that through my life in
02:00:45
the union movement. privilege in
02:00:46
politics, music, sport, politics. What a
02:00:50
what a privilege it was to to get the
02:00:52
type of funding that we got for for our
02:00:54
people. Never seen funding like that
02:00:56
before. And I was the main negotiator
02:00:59
for our MAI caucus. So those sort of
02:01:02
opportunities, those those are
02:01:03
opportunities of a lifetime that um uh
02:01:06
you know, I proud I've been proud to to
02:01:09
to roll out. And so, yeah, it's um you
02:01:12
know, I always say to our young ones,
02:01:14
there's so much to do. You know, you
02:01:16
might think things are you're in a hole
02:01:18
now, but you know, you you put a plan in
02:01:20
place. Me and my wife always say, we put
02:01:22
in a put in a plan. Uh and if you
02:01:24
haven't got a plan, uh then uh you're
02:01:27
just going to you're just going to go
02:01:28
week to week. Eh, I reckon everyone's
02:01:30
going to have a plan. Uh Dom,
02:01:33
>> I reckon that's probably a good place to
02:01:34
end it. Any final words or
02:01:36
>> Oh, no. Thanks very much.
02:01:38
>> How much money you make here?
02:01:41
Not enough. Not enough. Still still um
02:01:43
spending the radio money.
02:01:44
>> Give me a ball for now. I'm looking at
02:01:47
uh I've been looking at this sort of
02:01:49
podcast sort of thing as a as a future,
02:01:51
you know.
02:01:51
>> Yeah.
02:01:51
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:01:52
>> Oh, you can bring the old band back
02:01:53
together.
02:01:54
>> Yeah. Bring the old band back together.
02:01:55
Oh, it's it's funny though, isn't it?
02:01:57
Every morning's doing a podcast now, eh?
02:02:00
>> Everyone's doing a podcast, actually.
02:02:02
Are you the most popular one? You and
02:02:03
those two beers or something.
02:02:04
>> Between Two Beers. Yeah, they are. I
02:02:06
think I'm like the Teeu version of
02:02:08
Between Two Beers. They're doing a great
02:02:10
job.
02:02:10
>> Someone said that you you and them are
02:02:12
about the most popular.
02:02:13
>> Oh, is that right?
02:02:14
>> Type of podcast doing this type of
02:02:16
quarted away.
02:02:17
>> I think one thing we both have in
02:02:19
common, me and Between Beers, um we've
02:02:22
both been going a long time. I've been
02:02:23
going like three and a half years.
02:02:24
They've been going about six years and
02:02:25
we started independent and we just keep
02:02:27
grinding away. Whereas the media
02:02:29
companies, they'll start a podcast.
02:02:30
They'll do eight episodes, 10 episodes,
02:02:32
and they'll get bored.
02:02:33
>> But it's um
02:02:34
>> that's what Ghana does, right? They've
02:02:35
sort of they've abandoned
02:02:36
>> Yeah, he's doing all right now.
02:02:37
>> Haven't they abandoned him? I heard him
02:02:39
asking for money. He asking for money
02:02:40
the other day. No, no, he was he was
02:02:43
well cuz he you know he's uh he's he's
02:02:45
he's been booting the all he does is
02:02:47
boot the marage, right? That's all Dun
02:02:49
does, you know.
02:02:50
>> Oh, one trick pony.
02:02:51
>> Well, you know, it's bad experience. Had
02:02:53
a bad experience with Mai Woman, but
02:02:54
anyway, we won't go there, you know,
02:02:56
couple of wives, you know, moldy woman,
02:02:58
you know, but hey, he he's a good
02:03:00
broadcaster, too. But I I see him
02:03:02
struggling there. He's talking about
02:03:04
he's got to get funding. What about
02:03:05
Plunkett? Is he going to last? He lost
02:03:06
all the richies.
02:03:07
>> I I don't know. Is he going with a
02:03:09
subscription model that's for the
02:03:10
platform?
02:03:11
>> Yeah. No, but the
02:03:12
>> the right family. Yeah.
02:03:13
>> You know, they pulled they pulled. Yeah.
02:03:16
>> Yeah. I heard he's uh he's he's up to
02:03:18
something, you know. I'll plunk it, eh?
02:03:21
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. No. So, no. So,
02:03:23
like give me an idea how much money
02:03:24
you're making.
02:03:27
I'll tell you, thousand half a mile.
02:03:31
Give me You're not going to tell us on
02:03:32
here. No, I'll tell you off there when
02:03:34
you tell me how much you got as a
02:03:35
defamation payment from ZB.
02:03:37
>> Hey, I never got a scent. It always it
02:03:40
never came it never came my way. All I
02:03:42
got was banned by that Mike Hoskins.
02:03:44
Come on, Mike. Put me back on that show.
02:03:45
>> All right. Okay. Hey, good to be here.
02:03:47
>> It's the first time we've met, mate. I
02:03:48
really enjoyed it.
02:03:49
>> Thank you very much.
02:03:49
>> Cheers. Legend.
