00:00:06
When it comes to politics, I'm I'm real
00:00:08
light on politics. Um,
00:00:09
>> it's all right. Most most people are.
00:00:11
>> My thing uh with the podcast is just
00:00:13
getting to know sort of the person
00:00:14
behind the job. But I have got a young
00:00:16
kid out here called Henry Blakeman who
00:00:18
you met just before 13 years old from Oi
00:00:20
College.
00:00:21
>> You're shaping a m
00:00:22
>> Can can he come in here and ask a few
00:00:24
questions?
00:00:25
>> Yeah. Yeah, of course.
00:00:26
>> Okay. He came in a few weeks ago um for
00:00:28
a school trip and we got to talk about
00:00:29
politics and he just seemed really
00:00:30
smart.
00:00:31
>> And so you so you've signed him up.
00:00:33
>> He might take your job full time.
00:00:35
>> Henry Blakeman, Willie Jackson.
00:00:37
>> Henry, nice to meet you.
00:00:39
>> Nice to meet you. You learning moldi?
00:00:40
>> Uh yeah, a little bit at school.
00:00:43
>> Kai
00:00:44
Kaiqu.
00:00:49
>> Well, I've got a lot to talk about.
00:00:51
>> Got lots of points to talk to you about
00:00:53
today. First thing I want to talk about
00:00:54
is a bit of background. So, how did you
00:00:56
really get into politics? I know you had
00:00:58
was it um a career in media before you
00:01:00
went into politics?
00:01:01
>> Yeah, I suppose I got really into I was
00:01:03
a union official, a union person. So,
00:01:05
when you're in the unions, it's like all
00:01:07
politics. It's like, you know, politics
00:01:09
is around you all the time. So, I was
00:01:11
very young. Like, I'm old now, 64, but
00:01:13
when I was 21, I was a full-time union
00:01:17
president. And so it was like uh and
00:01:20
then so so it was just it felt like I
00:01:22
was in politics all the time but I I I
00:01:24
didn't actually go into formal politics
00:01:26
until I was about 35 36. I I stood and
00:01:28
then I finally got in when I was 38 and
00:01:31
and I always wanted to go into politics
00:01:33
cuz you know it's like the unions you
00:01:35
want to help people. You want to advance
00:01:37
things for your people but for your
00:01:38
community. So those are the main reasons
00:01:40
why I went in.
00:01:41
>> Yeah. Uh, I believe you went in with
00:01:43
Manamo Tuhake was your first
00:01:45
>> party and then you formed the Alliance.
00:01:48
Um, so what was it like being in sort of
00:01:50
a smaller party compared to now you're
00:01:52
in Labour? That's one of the biggest
00:01:53
parties in New Zealand.
00:01:54
>> Yeah. Well, I never thought I'd be in
00:01:55
Labour. I'd always thought I'd be in the
00:01:57
Maldi party cuz Manuhaki was like the
00:01:59
first Mai party in um in in parliament.
00:02:03
So in government. So I was part of that
00:02:06
and ended up with Sandra Lee and with
00:02:08
the leadership and all that sort of
00:02:10
stuff. And it was and we were in the
00:02:12
alliance and we were really I really
00:02:14
liked it cuz we were like with the
00:02:15
working class and look look after the
00:02:17
people who were in the communities and I
00:02:20
was with people like Llaya Hari and and
00:02:22
Jim Anderson. It was really a a
00:02:25
privilege and yes it was a smaller party
00:02:28
but we felt that we we had a bit of
00:02:29
influence and then we started working
00:02:31
with Labor. Labor were our enemies
00:02:33
because the so the alliance actually
00:02:36
were people who were sick of the Labor
00:02:37
party. So that's how the alliance formed
00:02:39
and then the alliance came back and
00:02:41
joined the Labour Party.
00:02:42
>> And then it was Helen Clark in 1999.
00:02:45
>> That's right. She was our prime minister
00:02:46
and Jim Anderson, who was our leader,
00:02:47
became the deputy prime minister.
00:02:49
>> Oh, that's really cool. Yeah.
00:02:50
>> Um and then you moved up to Labour. You
00:02:53
had multiple portfolios under Jinder,
00:02:55
didn't you?
00:02:55
>> That's right. Yeah. I did Maldi affairs,
00:02:57
moldy development, and broadcasting
00:02:59
employment and so it was quite a honor
00:03:02
to be with Justinda. You like Jinda?
00:03:04
>> Yeah, Justinda is a great person.
00:03:05
>> Yeah. I'm glad relieved to hear that.
00:03:08
You never know when you come on radio
00:03:09
when you're talking about just something
00:03:10
>> a lot of negative stuff. Yeah. Um was it
00:03:13
hard to have multiple portfolios or was
00:03:15
it a bit more stressful?
00:03:16
>> Oh, that's what you do these days if
00:03:18
you're lucky if you're lucky enough. But
00:03:19
Oh, no. No. That's what you go there
00:03:20
for. You know, you go there for to to do
00:03:23
the work. And so for me was a great
00:03:25
opportunity for Maldi, for workingclass
00:03:27
people
00:03:28
>> to advance things for them. So I used to
00:03:31
roll out different programs for workers,
00:03:34
for MAI, for the different communities.
00:03:36
So, it was great, great privilege.
00:03:37
>> That's good. Uh, we had David on, was it
00:03:40
a couple of weeks ago? Um, and he said
00:03:42
that he'd rather have a smaller
00:03:43
government with less ministries and more
00:03:45
people having multiple portfolios. Would
00:03:47
you agree with that?
00:03:48
>> No, not not necessarily cuz I get
00:03:50
anything coming from home to
00:03:53
have another think about it. There's not
00:03:55
much I agree with him on, but I'd never
00:03:57
look at it.
00:03:58
>> Yeah. Because in politics, it always
00:03:59
feels like no matter what the opposing
00:04:01
party's putting out, you have to
00:04:02
disagree with it. So, have you ever
00:04:04
really seen like a bill that National or
00:04:06
any of those people have put out that
00:04:07
you agree with, but you have to disagree
00:04:09
because you're an opposition MP?
00:04:11
>> Yeah, that's a good question, but no,
00:04:13
the reality is there are a number of
00:04:14
bills that we agree with National on.
00:04:16
So, you might not know this, but uh
00:04:18
probably 85% of the stuff that goes
00:04:20
through Parliament, National and Labor
00:04:22
agree on.
00:04:22
>> Oh, yeah. In terms of David Seymour, him
00:04:24
and I um we we did actually he did a I
00:04:27
don't like complimenting him, but he did
00:04:29
do a terrific job, Dom, I don't know if
00:04:31
you remember, with the youth in Asia
00:04:32
stuff,
00:04:33
>> which was landmark stuff. So, I give him
00:04:35
his credit on that. He stood his ground
00:04:37
and uh that that's where that was before
00:04:40
he became too infamous. I was going to
00:04:42
say famous, but but in those days, he
00:04:44
did a terrific job and that was one of
00:04:46
the most I think it's the best thing
00:04:48
David Seymour ever did. So, you know, uh
00:04:50
here's the thing. Look, people ask me
00:04:52
about David, would I work with him? I
00:04:53
work with anyone who will advance the
00:04:55
lives of um uh average New Zealanders.
00:04:58
So, if that was David Seymour and and
00:05:00
Mai, working-class people, women, uh I
00:05:03
would work with him because uh it's not
00:05:04
about me and him, it's about the people.
00:05:07
>> Oh, that's cool. Um you said David was
00:05:09
quite infamous. Are you glad to are you
00:05:11
glad that the treaty principles bills
00:05:12
over?
00:05:13
>> Glad to see the back end of that.
00:05:14
>> It was terrible. It was a terrible bill.
00:05:16
And he should have known better. I got
00:05:18
kicked out of the house on that one
00:05:19
because Yeah, because because I called
00:05:20
David a liar and actually I did it
00:05:22
twice. I got kicked out twice anyway and
00:05:25
and but he can handle it because this is
00:05:27
politics, you know, and uh he's give it
00:05:29
to me as well as I give it to him. So,
00:05:31
um I don't resile on that because um uh
00:05:34
as I've said to Dom, you know, he's
00:05:36
trying to change the treaty of Wangi
00:05:38
>> and then he's trying to say no, I'm not.
00:05:40
And I'm saying yes, you are. You're
00:05:41
trying to change artic what's called
00:05:43
article 2 and article three.
00:05:45
>> Oh, yeah. Um we talked a bit about uh
00:05:49
Winston Peters in Palestine before. Um
00:05:51
so if you were the leader, if you were
00:05:53
prime minister, if you had the decision,
00:05:55
would you recognize Palestine as a
00:05:56
state?
00:05:57
>> Well, 100% 100%. Particularly now
00:05:59
because it's I think it's Look, I I I
00:06:03
understand both sides. You know, I did a
00:06:05
You won't know this, but I'll tell you.
00:06:06
Um I did a a a show a few years ago.
00:06:09
What was it called? DNA detectives. And
00:06:11
I found out I had a bit of a Jewish
00:06:13
background.
00:06:14
>> So because people go, "Oh, you hate the
00:06:15
Jews." Well, I actually I found, you
00:06:16
know, I get teased by some of my mates
00:06:18
and I still I'm quite, you know, I'm no
00:06:20
hater of the Jewish people at all. I
00:06:22
think uh um you know met many of them
00:06:25
and I had had a bit of a background and
00:06:27
found that out in my DNA which I thought
00:06:29
was fascinating. It's not about that.
00:06:31
It's about do do we do this to people
00:06:33
every single day, kids getting murdered
00:06:35
every single day um starving and
00:06:38
thousands and thousands. It's just this
00:06:40
ter it's just terrible. And you know,
00:06:43
people go, "Oh, do you support the Hamas
00:06:44
who talk they what they did was
00:06:46
terrible, but too wrong? Don't make it
00:06:48
right."
00:06:48
>> Yeah. Uh, what would recognizing
00:06:50
Palestine actually do in terms of other
00:06:52
than being a symbolic gesture? How would
00:06:54
that help stop what's happening?
00:06:55
>> Well, I mean, probably might not stop
00:06:58
what's happening, but it would give them
00:06:59
some status in terms of uh um uh the
00:07:03
real world and and recognition that they
00:07:05
haven't had. it would, you know, but I
00:07:07
mean Trump's talking about stopping it
00:07:10
and I saw something yesterday or or
00:07:12
today about him, you know, being quite
00:07:15
adamant he can he could get a ceasefire,
00:07:18
but he has been adamant before.
00:07:20
>> And is it the same thing with Ukraine?
00:07:21
>> You see the same thing with Ukraine? You
00:07:23
never you never know. You're not a Trump
00:07:25
fan obviously.
00:07:25
>> No, not really.
00:07:28
>> He's quite contradictory in what he
00:07:30
says.
00:07:30
>> Yeah, I mean most people are in those
00:07:33
areas. My view is if he can get anything
00:07:35
to happen uh good on him. You know he he
00:07:38
can be an enigma sometimes but um you
00:07:41
know if if he can if he can get any sort
00:07:43
of ceasefire or anything over there I
00:07:46
think the whole world will be relieved.
00:07:48
>> Yeah. Um the thing I found quite
00:07:50
annoying about Trump was he was like
00:07:51
there was the Mormon church terrible
00:07:53
Mormon church shootings over in the USA
00:07:55
and then he posted stop all of this
00:07:57
violence and then he's mobilizing the US
00:08:00
military into some of the democratic
00:08:02
states. So it's not much of a democracy
00:08:04
anymore.
00:08:05
>> No. Well, you know, it's
00:08:07
>> Yeah, it's incredible over half of
00:08:09
America voted for him, right?
00:08:11
>> Yeah.
00:08:11
>> I mean, it's, you know, I mean, that was
00:08:15
a such a resounding victory.
00:08:17
>> I was quite surprised because I thought
00:08:18
everyone was tired of Trump and Trump
00:08:20
became the president.
00:08:21
>> Yeah. No one I think what they're tired
00:08:23
of, they're tired of sort of treadmill
00:08:26
politicians, you know, they want they
00:08:27
want something out of the box and that's
00:08:29
what Trump is. He's something out of
00:08:30
he's something different. Oh, my
00:08:33
favorite over there was always Bernie
00:08:34
Sanders. You heard him?
00:08:35
>> No, I haven't.
00:08:36
>> He's he's like about 83.
00:08:38
>> Oh, yeah.
00:08:38
>> 83. And he's a green um greeny lefty.
00:08:42
Fabulous politician. He stood against
00:08:44
Hillary Clinton, I think, a few years
00:08:45
ago.
00:08:46
>> Yeah.
00:08:47
>> Talking about the Greens, uh Khloe
00:08:48
Swallbrick from Memory, she made a
00:08:50
comment which was something like from
00:08:52
the river to the sea, which David said
00:08:54
basically meant wipe out all the Jews.
00:08:56
Um so what do you think about that
00:08:58
comment? No, I No, look, I think you
00:09:01
have to do
00:09:02
>> things Chloe um you have to do things to
00:09:04
support the the what what they're doing
00:09:07
in Palestine. That's what she was doing.
00:09:09
And I I support I support a lot of what
00:09:11
Chloe talks. She's I think she's a local
00:09:13
MP here, isn't she?
00:09:14
>> Yeah.
00:09:15
>> You actually turned up in a in an E
00:09:17
vehicle today.
00:09:18
>> That's right. It's my wife's vehicle,
00:09:19
actually. Couldn't I couldn't find my
00:09:21
keys for the other one.
00:09:23
>> Um I wanted to talk about the cost of
00:09:26
living. So, everyone's sort of talking
00:09:27
about the cost of living and how
00:09:29
everything's expensive. So, I don't want
00:09:32
to talk specifically about the cost of
00:09:34
living, but maybe one of the solutions.
00:09:35
Chloe was talking about this one as
00:09:37
well. Uh, it is, if I'm correct in
00:09:39
saying it's likely Labor will bring in a
00:09:41
capital gains tax in the next election.
00:09:43
So, do you think a capital gains tax
00:09:45
would be a good thing for New Zealand?
00:09:46
>> Oh, you that's a that's a tough
00:09:49
question, that one. You know, we we have
00:09:51
not released our policy yet, Henry. Are
00:09:54
you going to be the first interviewer to
00:09:55
get us to Chippy, our boss of glue to
00:09:57
have my head if I talk about releasing a
00:10:00
capital gains tax? Let's let me just say
00:10:02
we are talking seriously about a capital
00:10:05
gains tax at the moment. So, but I can't
00:10:08
say when, where, or how because um well,
00:10:11
we just can't because it's it's it's a
00:10:14
policy and and it is a very serious
00:10:16
issue. Uh and it's not just with the
00:10:18
MPs, it's with all our members at the
00:10:20
moment. So, we'll be we're we're all
00:10:22
discussing it right now and uh um and I
00:10:26
can't say whether it's going to come in
00:10:27
or not, but it's a very very serious
00:10:29
issue that's on the table with Labor at
00:10:32
the moment.
00:10:32
>> But what about you personally? Do you
00:10:34
think that a capital gains tax
00:10:37
time
00:10:37
>> cuz um politicians like politicians like
00:10:40
David, they'll say what they want?
00:10:42
>> Um so, if you were like David,
00:10:44
>> would you say that? Well, you're not
00:10:46
like David.
00:10:46
>> No. Well, put it like this. I'm like
00:10:48
myself.
00:10:48
>> Okay.
00:10:49
>> Okay. and you've asked me a question and
00:10:51
I think that uh for me just so you've
00:10:54
asked me the question I've always been a
00:10:56
supporter of of something like a capital
00:10:58
gains tax I came from the alliance
00:11:00
that's what we were talking about in the
00:11:01
late '9s a fairer wealth distribution in
00:11:04
this country where where people like Dom
00:11:07
who's very rich multi-millionaires pay
00:11:09
what they should be paying you know you
00:11:11
know like where you know so so that's
00:11:13
what that's all about so are you asking
00:11:15
me about it absolutely I've been a
00:11:17
supporter of that that's no secret. So I
00:11:20
don't have to follow David's line. I'll
00:11:21
just follow my own line and tell you I'm
00:11:23
I I am a supporter of a of a fairer tax
00:11:26
system. Um and I'll be putting that view
00:11:30
um over the next few weeks.
00:11:31
>> But you think it will get a bit
00:11:32
complicated because a lot of people on
00:11:33
the right say a capital gains tax would
00:11:35
complicate the tax system.
00:11:36
>> Well, that's what they will always say.
00:11:38
But that our job will be to make it
00:11:40
simple and easy for the country to
00:11:43
understand. Um because you know they're
00:11:46
running out of uh ammunition. on the
00:11:48
right. You see, they're only right. So,
00:11:49
so you know what they're doing? Oh,
00:11:51
they're going to bring in a capital
00:11:52
gains tax. Oh, that marry party, they're
00:11:55
all they're all maniacs. They're like
00:11:56
terrorists, right?
00:11:58
They're like terrorists, you know.
00:12:00
They're out of control. Oh, they they'll
00:12:02
come over and they'll beat you up or
00:12:03
something, you know. You know, it's like
00:12:04
the right wing, you know how the right
00:12:05
wing are. You know, I mean, you know, so
00:12:08
so so it's those are the lines they run.
00:12:10
you know, the the the New Zealand's
00:12:13
going to be run by the terrorists and
00:12:14
and you've all going to be cuz they run
00:12:16
out of lines, but it it'll be easy for
00:12:18
people to understand. And if we do it
00:12:20
and if we do a um a deal with the Mai
00:12:23
party, um I don't think that's anything
00:12:25
for anyone to worry about because the
00:12:27
National Party has done deals with the
00:12:28
Moldi Party before, Party Moldi before,
00:12:31
they did one for nine years. Um the only
00:12:34
ammunition they really have anymore is
00:12:36
blaming the Labor government and past
00:12:38
people for what they've done like John
00:12:40
Key.
00:12:40
>> That's right.
00:12:41
>> Well, the cost of living is uh got a
00:12:43
cost of living problem because of John
00:12:45
Key, right? That's what they're saying.
00:12:46
Or is it because of co or is it because
00:12:48
of labor or is it you know is it because
00:12:51
of Jinda? It's everything apart from
00:12:53
them, right? They need they need to look
00:12:55
at themselves. They're in charge. They
00:12:57
make their own decisions. We've got a
00:12:59
cost of living um crisis because of the
00:13:02
decisions being made by this prime
00:13:04
minister and Nicola Willis.
00:13:06
>> Yeah. Uh just moving back to we were
00:13:07
talking about the capital gains tax. Um
00:13:09
Khloe Swick in an interview said
00:13:11
something like with a capital gains tax
00:13:12
we're going to end poverty and shrink
00:13:15
wealth gaps which ending poverty with a
00:13:17
tax is not that realistic. But if we
00:13:20
were being a bit realistic, what would
00:13:21
you hope to achieve if you brought in a
00:13:23
capital gains tax?
00:13:24
>> Oh, you I think it Well, you're very
00:13:26
cunning today. We're told we're back on
00:13:28
capital gains again. I've already told
00:13:30
you. Last one, Henry.
00:13:33
>> Henry, you're really really That just
00:13:35
about got me there. Well, let's just
00:13:37
hope that the talks go well over the
00:13:39
next few weeks, Henry. And I don't want
00:13:41
to be given my opinion here. I'll save
00:13:43
it for the talks and uh um and I'll be
00:13:47
putting a view about my own personal
00:13:50
position, two members and two MPs. But
00:13:52
thank you very much, MP. I said MP, I
00:13:55
meant Henry. But you'll be a you want to
00:13:57
be a future GP.
00:13:58
>> Yes, definitely. I'd love to be a
00:13:59
politician.
00:13:59
>> Oh, lovely. What? What? What party?
00:14:01
>> I don't really know yet. I'm quite
00:14:03
young. I don't want to say I'll be with
00:14:05
this party and then I'm stuck in an echo
00:14:06
chamber.
00:14:06
>> Imagine. Well, that's right. Good on
00:14:08
you. Keep your keep your choices. Yeah.
00:14:10
>> How did he do, Willie, Jackson?
00:14:11
>> Very good. Very
00:14:13
>> 10 out of nine out of 10. Only I would
00:14:15
have given you 10, but you irritated me.
00:14:17
You kept you kept coming back to that
00:14:19
capital gains.
00:14:20
>> There's always room for improvement.
00:14:21
>> I would have given you 10, but I thought
00:14:23
you tried to trick me at the end there
00:14:24
with the capital gains question. when
00:14:25
when you went on Q&A with Jack Tam in
00:14:28
2022 for um an interview about the R&Z
00:14:30
TV and ZZ merger, I think you called it
00:14:32
called it I'm a disgrace or something
00:14:34
like that. What do you make of Henry? Is
00:14:36
he a disgrace?
00:14:37
>> Oh, look, he could take Jack's job to
00:14:39
Byron. There's no doubt about it. You
00:14:40
like Jack Tape?
00:14:41
>> Uh I don't really watch a lot of the
00:14:43
>> very very good very good interview.
00:14:45
>> I watch a lot of the six news though
00:14:48
stuff comes from.
00:14:48
>> Yeah. Good on you, Henry.
00:14:50
>> Enjoy your life too, Henry.
00:14:52
>> Nice to meet you, mate. Hey, Henry
00:14:53
Blakeman, get out of here.
