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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:08
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
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hole in one in
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it again. Hey Finn, how's the
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performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:00:21
here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
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investments. Get in here, Finn.
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>> Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first.
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>> First of all, I'd like to bring um a new
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friend of mine into the studio. So,
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there was a um where we're recording
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this. This is um my Pod Lab studio and
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we had a group in for a tour the other
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week from um OD College and I met this
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young kid called Henry Blakeman who is
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uh I think he's 12 maybe 13 years old
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and he's into politics. So, I thought
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I'd bring him in to ask some of the
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hard-hitting political questions before
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we get into the chat.
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>> David Seymour, are you ready?
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>> Absolutely. I Well, I think so.
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See how hard-hitting this guy is.
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>> It would be so much better if his name
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was Goliath for the sake of the segment.
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>> David versus Goliath.
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>> I just I'm just trying to think who's
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the who's the Goliath and who's the
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David in this. I I I I feel I may be uh
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about to get stoned.
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>> David Seymour, meet Henry Blakeman.
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>> Hi, Henry. How are you?
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>> Nice to meet you.
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>> Yeah. How are you?
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>> I'm very well, thanks.
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>> That's good.
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>> Keen to hear what you've got to say or
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ask.
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>> Yeah. Well, I've heard a little bit
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about you. You've been in the news quite
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a lot.
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>> Once or twice. Out of interest. Um,
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where do you get information about
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politics? Do you online or on the news
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on TV?
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>> I mostly watch the news at 6:00. So, any
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of the stuff that I'm getting from
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politics, I usually get from there. My
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parents will from time to time cut in
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with things that they've heard on the
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news, but we tend to stay a bit away
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from debates in our house.
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>> Is that Is there a reason for that?
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>> Um it can get quite heated
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>> really.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Um cuz I come from quite a unique
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household where one parent is leftwing
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and one parent is right-wing, which is
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getting rarer and rarer, I think. But
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it's good to expose me to both opinions
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because especially as a young person and
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my brain's still developing, if I'm only
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exposed to one set of political ideals,
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then I'll never accept the other side of
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it.
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>> I think you should have got this guy on.
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>> I might just I might leave.
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>> Well, that's that's really really
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interesting. And and when you say that
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there's fewer parents who have opposing
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views, is that did you read that
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somewhere or what is that is that really
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true?
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>> I think I've experienced personally a
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lot of people who are together who have
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similar views in politics. So
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I won't name names, but one of my
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teachers, them and their partner are
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both the same views on politics. And I
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think a lot of people I've met in their
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relationships have been like that.
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>> It's kind of what they call an echo
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chamber.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Interesting. And did you have did you
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have some questions?
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>> Yeah. Um, so one of the main one of the
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main things I wanted to talk to you
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about is lowering the voting age.
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I think it's important
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to have parliamentally
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[Music]
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when you work you have a taxable income
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and the government takes that tax money
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and does whatever it is they want to do
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with it. But if they're taking your
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money and you didn't get to choose how
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they're spending it, I don't see that as
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fair.
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>> So, no taxation without representation.
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>> No.
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>> Yeah. I I got to tell you, it's funny.
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My niece uh occasionally emails me about
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political stuff and uh she was having an
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argument with my sister-in-law, her her
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mom, about whether she could work and
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she wanted to know at what age are you
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allowed to work and I was a bit
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surprised. So I I looked up the law and
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there's actually no restrictions on
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children working at any age. Uh and uh
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there's also below a certain age, I
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think it's about 12, there's also no
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minimum wage. Um, so if that's true and
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children can work at any age, is it
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possible that we should put the voting
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age down to zero?
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>> Yeah. Well, I think the vote the voting
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age will always be there. It's always
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been a guideline. Um, and I don't think
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there would be a democracy in the world
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or history that has ever not had a
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voting age. And a lot of people say it's
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about maturity, but in reality, there
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are a lot of people aged 21, 20 that are
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less mature than some 16 year olds. And
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definitely the people that I've met in
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my life, there are a lot of 16, 17 year
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olds that are way more politically
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mature than you'd expect.
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>> Yeah, I'd go further. I've I've met one
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or two people who actually elected to
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parliament who are less mature than than
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some 15 and 16 year olds.
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Look, I I agree with you that there's
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there's got to be a line.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Because I think if you said, you know,
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four year olds can vote, it would really
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just be their parents getting an extra
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vote.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Uh and then the question is where should
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the line be drawn? Wherever you draw it,
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there will be some people who are under
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the line and really capable and some
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people are over the line and probably
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less capable than people who are under
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the line. Uh, so it's just down to an
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argument of should it be 21 like it was
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in the past? Should it be 18 like it is
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now? Should it be 16 like some people
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say? I mean, what what makes you say are
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you saying 16 or
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>> Yes, I'd like it to be lowered to 16.
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One of the main reasons is because I
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turned 17 on the year of an election.
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>> Oh, self this out by one year. But um I
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think they've just in the UK changed it
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down to 16 and our parliament is based
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off of the Westminster system. So if
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they're changing it, why shouldn't we
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change it as well?
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>> Well, um I I guess you know the UK does
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make mistakes sometimes.
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Um, yeah. Look, I I I mean, I just come
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down and say, "Well, what's the There's
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an argument for 16, there's an argument
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for 18, there's an argument for for 20,
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if if you want to make it. I I've just
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never quite been persuaded that 16 is a
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is a better age than 18." Um, and the
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reason that I I don't favor changing it,
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for one thing, it's better if the
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electoral rules don't change frequently.
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And the reason I think that is that if
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the electoral rules are the same, then
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people don't worry about the rules, they
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worry about the policies. Um, and that
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that I think is an advantage. Um, and
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also the way I look at it, the people
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who are mostly pushing uh for the voting
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age to be lowered are people that want
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higher taxes and more government
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spending. Because while your point is
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absolutely correct, you can pay tax from
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14 and there should be no taxation
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without representation. I I agree with
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that. Um but we've got that even at 16.
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Uh you know, I believe that uh having
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another 100,000 people who vote but
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mostly don't work and mostly don't pay
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tax uh will mean that we get bigger
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government over time. And so some people
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will say that's an unfair argument, but
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but that's one of the arguments I make
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for it staying at at 18.
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>> Okay. Well, if you're talking about
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having a bigger government, from the
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research I've done, one of ACT's main
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policies is having a smaller government.
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Could you give me your reasoning behind
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having a government of less size?
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>> Yeah. Um, I just look at the decisions.
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I mean, humans are social creatures. We
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are always trying to um do our own
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thing, but we inevitably come back to to
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wanting to do stuff with other people.
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Then the question is well how do you
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organize um people to cooperate and uh
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one way is just social informal networks
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your family uh your sports club your
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friendship group and so on and uh that
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works really well cuz people can do a
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lot of stuff fast but they don't need to
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um you know give each other a receipt or
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a payment or whatever. So it's quite
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good uh in that way. But if you want to
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do sort of bigger stuff like make a
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jumbo jet, uh then you need businesses.
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We need people with contracts and money
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and and businesses can do really good
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big things faster. Um but they sometimes
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lack a bit of the compassion and so on.
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And then there's another way of doing
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things which is government where you
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make laws and actually force everybody
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to behave the same way. Everyone must
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follow this law. Not just people in this
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family, not just people that choose this
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business, but everybody. Now, all of
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those things have have good sides and
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bad sides, but in my view at the moment,
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we try and do too much stuff through
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government. Uh we tax too much, we make
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too many rules, and it's led to enormous
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frustration. Um, you know, people have
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basically been told for the last 80
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years, you give me all of your money or
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about a third to half your money in
00:09:10
taxes, we'll make the problems go away.
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or make sure people have a house and an
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education and stay healthy and don't
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don't end up dependent on welfare and
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actually you know people paid all the
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taxes for the last 80 years but the
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problems haven't gone away so I would
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argue that you know just start with the
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three ways of organizing people you know
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sort of social family civil society
00:09:32
business and government and I would
00:09:34
argue that government does too much
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people very frustrated with it and we
00:09:38
should try and put the pendulum back the
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other way
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>> but aren't you a bit worried that people
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will be unrepresented. I mean 120 people
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that get to sit in parliament out of 5
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million people is a small num a small
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fraction as it is. But if you have a
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smaller government, are you aren't you a
00:09:56
little concerned that some people won't
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get represented at all?
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>> Um well I I would be but just to be
00:10:02
clear what I'm talking about. Uh when I
00:10:04
talk about a smaller government, I don't
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mean a smaller parliament. Uh I think it
00:10:08
is important to have a a house of
00:10:10
representatives of of parliamentarians.
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Um but that's quite different from the
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ministers, the prime minister, the
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ministers and the government
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departments. Uh that's the government.
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And one way I always think about it is
00:10:23
if you go to the US, uh, you can walk
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along the National Mall there and
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they've got the White House and then
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they've got the Congress and then
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they've got the Supreme Court and the
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the government and the the Parliament if
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you like are separate and so are the
00:10:39
courts. Here we've got one parliament
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and the government the the prime
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minister and his ministers sit amongst
00:10:45
the parliamentarians. So it sort of
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seems like it's all the same thing. Um,
00:10:48
but it's it's not. Um, and so I'm
00:10:52
talking about, you know, a smaller
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bureaucracy. I'm talking about less
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government spending. I'm talking about
00:10:58
less rules and regulations, but I still
00:11:01
think that, you know, the people should
00:11:02
have representatives to speak for them
00:11:04
in the parliament and in the same number
00:11:05
as we have now, which is, you know,
00:11:07
which is what you're saying, which I
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think you're right.
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>> Okay. So, do you think we should have a
00:11:10
smaller government by separating the
00:11:12
government and the House of
00:11:13
Representatives or is that what you're
00:11:16
saying?
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>> Um, I'm not necessarily saying that. Uh
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I'm just saying that the the number of
00:11:22
ministers could be smaller. So you could
00:11:24
still have 120 MPs, but right now a
00:11:27
quarter of them are ministers. Um in the
00:11:30
past instead of having 30 ministers, we
00:11:32
had 16 or 18. So we could have fewer min
00:11:35
fewer MPs that are ministers. Uh we
00:11:37
could have fewer government departments.
00:11:39
At the moment we got about 46
00:11:40
departments. Um uh you know other
00:11:43
countries around the world have half
00:11:44
that and they still manage to function.
00:11:46
Uh, so you could keep the parliament the
00:11:48
same size, shrink the ministers and the
00:11:50
ministries and and be better off.
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>> Okay. Well, you talked a bit about
00:11:54
lowering taxes, but that seems to be one
00:11:57
of the government's main points to solve
00:11:59
the cost of living crisis. Is there
00:12:01
anything else you're doing at the moment
00:12:03
that is helping Kiwis to make it
00:12:04
through?
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>> Sure. I mean, I look at the thing that
00:12:08
we're recording this today. I I just
00:12:10
announced that we're going to um take a
00:12:12
look at the 30 different sets of rules
00:12:15
for labeling because if you want to sell
00:12:16
a medicine in a chemist shop, a building
00:12:19
material in a building supply place um
00:12:21
you know a insecticide or something in a
00:12:24
in a farm place um like RD1 or um if you
00:12:27
want to put food on the shelves of a
00:12:29
supermarket, all of those things have
00:12:31
different rules for how they should be
00:12:33
labeled in New Zealand. And often uh
00:12:35
there will be things that are allowed to
00:12:37
be sold in New Zealand, but you can't
00:12:38
take the same thing off the shelf and
00:12:40
put it in a New Zealand supermarket
00:12:41
because the rules are different. Now,
00:12:43
I've what I'm saying is if something
00:12:45
could be sold in Australia, it should be
00:12:47
sold here. And if we did that, then
00:12:49
there'd be more products that New
00:12:50
Zealanders could choose from and prices
00:12:52
probably come down uh with more choice
00:12:54
and competition. So that's, you know,
00:12:56
just one little example of where we're
00:12:59
trying to actually get rid of the red
00:13:01
tape so that people can do better.
00:13:03
>> Okay. And I wanted to ask about a
00:13:05
specific product and I'm sure the
00:13:07
government has heard this a lot but I
00:13:09
wanted to ask a bit about butter. Now
00:13:11
we've recently had a bit of controversy
00:13:13
on Fonta.
00:13:15
>> Um and in our family we have a small
00:13:18
business and
00:13:20
>> how do you think that you would be able
00:13:22
to lower the price of butter?
00:13:24
>> Well, a couple of things. I mean I don't
00:13:26
think that uh the government can lower
00:13:28
the price of butter uh because the the
00:13:31
price is set by the the price that
00:13:33
farmers are getting on the global dairy
00:13:35
trade and that is uh influenced by how
00:13:39
much butter is produced say um in places
00:13:42
like Europe if they are producing less
00:13:44
then they've got less they'll pay more
00:13:46
to to import butter from New Zealand
00:13:48
that pushes the price up. Uh the second
00:13:50
thing is um if you look at what the
00:13:55
supermarkets are doing, they're actually
00:13:57
selling for less than they're getting it
00:13:58
for right now. I mean, they're taking a
00:14:01
loss for the most part on on selling
00:14:03
butter. So, you know, this this price is
00:14:07
influenced by things that the the New
00:14:08
Zealand government could control. But if
00:14:11
we start setting the price for butter,
00:14:13
then it's what else are we going to do?
00:14:15
People expect us to set every price. I
00:14:17
mean, we don't know what to set it at.
00:14:19
Um, so I I I think what's interesting is
00:14:22
that um farmers are in New Zealand are
00:14:25
very innovative. They're on top of their
00:14:27
game. They're selling something the
00:14:29
world wants. The rest of New Zealand is
00:14:31
struggling to afford it. So my answer is
00:14:34
this is not a problem with the price of
00:14:35
butter. This is a problem with one
00:14:37
industry being at the forefront of the
00:14:39
world and the rest of New Zealand
00:14:41
struggling to to afford the prices that
00:14:44
they're getting.
00:14:45
>> Okay. Uh I want to move back a bit. We
00:14:47
were talking about parliament, but I
00:14:50
wanted to ask a little bit about MMP
00:14:52
specifically. People talk about in
00:14:54
politics the tail wagging the dog
00:14:56
>> and saying that the Greens or Tata Malda
00:14:59
could control Labor the same way that
00:15:01
ACT and New Zealand First could control
00:15:03
national and I wanted to ask a bit about
00:15:06
how you managed to go into a coalition
00:15:08
government and still stand strong with
00:15:10
your beliefs but compromise. M um you
00:15:13
know I had a political mentor um a long
00:15:17
time ago when I worked in Canada. His
00:15:19
name was Preston Manning and a lot of
00:15:21
people said he was the best prime
00:15:22
minister Canada never had. He he he
00:15:25
started a party from nothing became the
00:15:27
leader of the opposition there. Anyway,
00:15:29
um Preston said look all politics is
00:15:33
ultimately about people managing to live
00:15:35
together without physical fighting. Um
00:15:39
so that that is the business. Uh, do we
00:15:41
get everything we want? No. I mean, New
00:15:43
Zealand would be uh a different place if
00:15:45
ACT got more of its policies uh through.
00:15:48
But, um, is the government different
00:15:50
because we're there? Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:52
We're, you know, saving more money.
00:15:54
We're spending less. We're getting rid
00:15:56
of more red tape. Um, I think we're a
00:15:58
lot stronger on equal rights regardless
00:16:00
of your ancestry. Uh, there's a bunch of
00:16:03
things where we can say we've moved the
00:16:04
dial from from where it would otherwise
00:16:06
be and that that's just the business,
00:16:08
you know.
00:16:08
>> Yeah. So you talked about having a
00:16:10
political mentor in Canada. Could you
00:16:12
describe to us well one what you did
00:16:15
before politics and two how you got into
00:16:17
politics and managed to become the party
00:16:20
leader you are today who's in
00:16:21
government.
00:16:22
>> Yeah. So um I all my life wanted to be
00:16:26
an electrical engineer. I I had an
00:16:28
experience that you will have quite
00:16:29
soon. I um was looking at my option
00:16:32
lines, which subjects I would take at
00:16:34
high school, and I decided that I wanted
00:16:37
to do languages uh and history um
00:16:41
because I thought they'd be interesting.
00:16:43
So, I took this plan to my mom and long
00:16:45
story short, uh I graduated in physics,
00:16:49
chemistry, calc, stats, and English. The
00:16:51
only reason I did English instead of
00:16:53
biology is English was compulsory then.
00:16:55
Um so I was d I was steered very
00:16:59
strongly towards um a scientific career.
00:17:02
Did he did electrical engineering um and
00:17:05
I um you know started working out doing
00:17:07
that but at that point I'd already been
00:17:10
bitten by a bug uh and it started when I
00:17:13
was in uh year 12 was my last year of
00:17:16
high school. the NCAA was being
00:17:20
introduced and I watched the principal
00:17:23
of my high school, a guy called John
00:17:25
Morris, publicly fight with Trevor
00:17:27
Malard, who was the education minister.
00:17:29
And uh Trevor had this big battle uh and
00:17:33
uh lost and and won. Um but 25 years
00:17:37
later, the government is getting rid of
00:17:39
the NCAA and John won. Now I was sitting
00:17:43
there as a kid and I thought the
00:17:45
principal's right. the government's
00:17:48
right, but how can the principal say the
00:17:50
government's wrong? And I looked into it
00:17:52
and I found out the government's wrong
00:17:54
quite often.
00:17:56
>> In fact, probably more often than not.
00:17:58
And that's really what what got me
00:17:59
interested in politics. I I I I suddenly
00:18:02
decided that if I'm going to do
00:18:04
something with my life, you know,
00:18:05
there's there's no shortage of
00:18:06
politicians out there who promise to
00:18:09
take someone else's money, give it to
00:18:10
you, or take someone else's freedom by
00:18:13
making a rule to to make them do what
00:18:15
you want. And I just came to the
00:18:17
conclusion that freedom is what works.
00:18:19
All through history, it's free people
00:18:20
that have made made the breakthroughs.
00:18:22
Uh and I would go into politics to fight
00:18:24
for freedom instead of taxing someone
00:18:26
else's money. And that from there, I
00:18:28
just kept going.
00:18:29
>> Yeah. Well, you talked about NCA. So, as
00:18:33
a year 8 this year, I will be one of the
00:18:36
students that will have never earned NCA
00:18:38
credits from the previous system, and
00:18:41
I'll only be doing the A&E grading that
00:18:43
the government's introduced now. How do
00:18:45
you as a government aim to improve my
00:18:48
schooling and improve my qualifications
00:18:50
by changing the system?
00:18:52
>> Well, I just want to start by saying NCA
00:18:55
can be a good system. Uh if you choose
00:18:58
hard credits and apply yourself, you
00:19:00
could you do very well with NCA. I think
00:19:02
where NCA has gone wrong is exactly
00:19:05
where John Morris back in the day said
00:19:07
it would is that it creates too many
00:19:10
options and pathways uh to avoid the
00:19:14
hard work and actually make life too
00:19:16
easy. Uh and people say how can life be
00:19:20
too easy? Well, actually I I think
00:19:21
you've got to have a series of
00:19:24
challenges where you say this is the
00:19:26
curriculum. You got to learn it. you got
00:19:28
to sit the test and then we're going to
00:19:29
give you a percentage. And um you know
00:19:32
that may be hard, but it's better to
00:19:34
have a series of small and increasingly
00:19:37
large challenges as you grow up. Uh
00:19:39
because when you're an adult, suddenly
00:19:40
you get some big challenges and if you
00:19:42
hadn't had one before, you're in
00:19:43
trouble. Uh so, you know, NCA can work
00:19:46
and I don't want to take anything away
00:19:48
from those students out there who have
00:19:50
or are doing NCA. Um but we're going to
00:19:53
say, look, this is the stuff you need to
00:19:54
learn. There will be a test. you've got
00:19:56
to pass it. And I think that is going to
00:19:58
be good for uh the amount of knowledge
00:20:00
you pick up and it's also going to be
00:20:02
good for young people uh being ready to
00:20:05
face more life's challenges.
00:20:06
>> Okay. Well, I've heard some students
00:20:09
saying that they're worried about what
00:20:11
their qualifications with NCA will mean.
00:20:14
So, year 12 and 13 students who are
00:20:17
doing NCA right now, once they graduate
00:20:19
and the new system changes over fully,
00:20:23
how will their credits
00:20:25
benefit them in later life to find a job
00:20:28
when they become invalid with the new
00:20:30
system. Well, not invalid, but yeah.
00:20:32
>> Well, that you're right, they won't
00:20:33
become invalid. That's that's true. Uh I
00:20:37
think that there will be some people
00:20:38
that have a a negative view of NCAA, but
00:20:42
ultimately if you're an employer or
00:20:44
someone who's letting people into a
00:20:47
university or trade course, you're
00:20:49
sitting there saying, "I need to get the
00:20:51
best people. If NCAA is the information
00:20:53
I have, then I will use that uh to
00:20:56
assess whether I want to employ or put
00:20:58
someone into a course. So, what I'd say
00:21:00
to those people is um you know, is the
00:21:03
course is the new thing better or worse?
00:21:05
Probably depends on the work you put in.
00:21:07
Um will you still have prospects and
00:21:09
will people use the information they
00:21:11
have about you from the course that you
00:21:12
did at your time in history? Yeah, they
00:21:14
will.
00:21:15
>> Okay. Um, I wanted to move back to one
00:21:17
of your previous statements where you
00:21:19
said that if ACT was the main party in
00:21:22
government, a lot of things would have
00:21:23
changed. What's on your priority list?
00:21:26
What is the biggest thing that you would
00:21:27
want to change if you suddenly became
00:21:30
the biggest party in New Zealand?
00:21:32
>> I think at the heart of the frustrations
00:21:35
people have with New Zealand right now
00:21:38
is that we have lost the pioneering
00:21:40
spirit that created this country. Um, I
00:21:44
look at my own history. Some of my
00:21:46
ancestors came here on a walker 800
00:21:48
years ago. Others came in a sailing ship
00:21:51
120, 130 years ago. Um, you know, others
00:21:54
um not in my hair family, but certainly
00:21:56
in my circle of friends have arrived in
00:21:58
New Zealand just in the last few years.
00:22:00
Um, you know, that's that's our history
00:22:03
where people that move a long way to a
00:22:05
pretty remote place, pretty out there
00:22:07
place to try and get a better life. And
00:22:10
that means that you're someone who's
00:22:11
prepared to take action to try and give
00:22:13
your kids a better tomorrow uh by taking
00:22:16
a risk today. And I just feel like we've
00:22:19
lost that spirit in New Zealand.
00:22:21
Everyone's worried about, oh, how do
00:22:23
people feel? Is it safe? You know, what
00:22:25
if what if? Um we've got a million road
00:22:28
cones to make sure that nothing goes
00:22:29
wrong. Um is kind of the symbol of it,
00:22:32
right? Yeah. And um I just kind of I I
00:22:35
want to see a New Zealand where we are a
00:22:38
lot more prepared to take risks, be
00:22:40
rewarded, not pull people down with tall
00:22:42
poppy. We're not focused on all the
00:22:44
little differences between us. We're
00:22:45
focused on the fact that we're all
00:22:46
pioneers who came here or children of
00:22:49
pioneers who came here. Um that's the
00:22:52
kind of New Zealand that can solve
00:22:53
problems and and it's the New Zealand
00:22:54
that a lot of people like. It's you
00:22:56
know, Sir Edund Hillary climbs Everest.
00:22:57
It's Kate Shepard first in the world.
00:22:59
you know, it's it's it's Rutherford
00:23:01
splits the atom. You know, it's these
00:23:03
are the kind of stories we like to tell
00:23:05
about ourselves. So, what does that look
00:23:07
like when it comes to policies? Well,
00:23:09
it's, you know, it's a smaller
00:23:10
bureaucracy. It's less rules and
00:23:12
regulations. It's less tax, but it's
00:23:14
also, you know, being tough on crime
00:23:16
because you don't want to spend your
00:23:17
life building up a shop and have someone
00:23:19
walk in and take it away. Um, you know,
00:23:21
it's also, uh, saying, look, if you ever
00:23:24
find yourself as a soul parent or you
00:23:26
really can't get a job, there'll be
00:23:28
welfare there for you. But at the
00:23:30
moment, one out of every six working age
00:23:33
New Zealanders is on a benefit. And I
00:23:35
just refuse to believe that one in six
00:23:38
people can't work. Um, so we need to
00:23:40
start putting some obligations and some
00:23:42
time limits uh on welfare. And uh we
00:23:45
also need to make it desperately when we
00:23:47
talk about red tape, make it easier to
00:23:49
build a home because the next generation
00:23:51
can build a home. Things are going to
00:23:52
work out okay. People say, "Right,
00:23:54
here's the deal. I sit my exams, I do my
00:23:57
work, save my money, I buy a place, I
00:23:59
can have a good life, a stable life, uh
00:24:02
have a family if that's what I want." Uh
00:24:04
whereas when people say, "I've done
00:24:07
everything right, but I'll always be a
00:24:09
tenant in my own country," then people
00:24:11
get very upset. So, more opportunity to
00:24:14
harness that pioneering spirit and make
00:24:16
the most of our time on Earth. Um, you
00:24:18
know, which involves a little bit of
00:24:20
risk, but also a lot more reward.
00:24:22
>> Okay.
00:24:23
>> Jeez, he's smart, isn't he?
00:24:24
>> He is.
00:24:26
>> Were you like that? I'd imagine you
00:24:27
would have been like a nerdy
00:24:30
politically.
00:24:30
>> Well, I was nerdy, but I wasn't that
00:24:32
smart.
00:24:33
>> Were you that in tune with politics at
00:24:35
the same age? No.
00:24:37
>> When I was So, you're year eight?
00:24:40
>> Year eight.
00:24:40
>> So, you were 13?
00:24:41
>> 13.
00:24:41
>> Yeah. So um by the time I was 17 I was
00:24:46
that's when I got interested in NCA with
00:24:49
um John Morris and Trevor Mard and all
00:24:51
the rest. That was the first time I paid
00:24:53
any attention. I remember really
00:24:55
succinctly uh I don't know why I
00:24:58
remember this but it came on the radio
00:25:00
that um there was a guy called uh
00:25:03
Michael Cullen and my ears pricked up
00:25:06
cuz I thought it was Christian Cullen
00:25:08
and then I found out it wasn't Christian
00:25:10
Cullen. So I went and did something
00:25:12
else, you know, like that's that's about
00:25:14
how interested. I was like, "Oh, it's an
00:25:15
all but no, it's just the, you know, who
00:25:17
I later found out was the Minister of
00:25:19
Finance." But um
00:25:20
>> actually, I'm I'm pretty good friends
00:25:22
with um Kelly, the living one, Christian
00:25:23
Kullan, and he's he's very frugal with
00:25:25
his money. He wouldn't be a bad finance
00:25:26
minister. Actually,
00:25:27
>> that's another thing that's happened
00:25:28
since I since I was on your podcast. I
00:25:30
met my hero. What a legend.
00:25:32
>> Really? Where did you meet him? The um
00:25:34
Paumu Golf Course.
00:25:35
>> Uh no, it was a it was a golf course. It
00:25:38
was the um Chasing the Fox. uh um annual
00:25:42
uh thing I do. So, you know, celebrity
00:25:44
raise money for golf thing.
00:25:46
>> So, that was awesome. Every time they do
00:25:47
an all black selection, I hope he's in.
00:25:49
You don't know who this is, do you,
00:25:50
Henry?
00:25:50
>> Unfortunately, not.
00:25:51
>> You you do you like rugby at all?
00:25:53
>> I'm not much of a rugby person, but I'll
00:25:55
watch the Warriors and the Blues with my
00:25:57
nan and we'll watch the All Blacks if
00:25:58
they're on.
00:25:59
>> If you you just Google Christian Cullens
00:26:02
All Black Tries and then you'll love
00:26:04
rugby.
00:26:05
>> It's a long package.
00:26:07
Um, hey, we're going to crack on, but
00:26:09
maybe one one last one from you, Henry.
00:26:11
Um, since you you've probably got more
00:26:13
of a debate with um the deputy prime
00:26:15
minister on this and what I do, what are
00:26:16
your thoughts on the uh treaty
00:26:18
principles bill?
00:26:19
>> Yeah, so this was one of the more maybe
00:26:22
controversial and infamous things I
00:26:23
wanted to touch on, but as a young
00:26:26
person,
00:26:27
maybe my grasp on what you're trying to
00:26:29
do with the bill is not as strong as
00:26:32
someone a little bit older than me. So,
00:26:36
how would you describe the treaty
00:26:38
principles bill to someone like me and
00:26:41
how would it change how the treaty of
00:26:43
Wangi
00:26:45
affects our law makingaking in
00:26:46
parliament?
00:26:47
>> H well based on your question I think
00:26:50
you you probably understand it better
00:26:52
than you you think. Um but look first of
00:26:55
all if you go back to the treaty itself
00:26:58
um you know there's two versions we take
00:27:00
the Maui version uh because that's the
00:27:02
the convention as you take the the
00:27:04
indigenous language and it basically
00:27:06
says that the government has the right
00:27:08
to govern uh that the government has a a
00:27:12
an obligation to uphold tenor or
00:27:15
self-determination over lands and
00:27:17
properties in Tawanga for for Maui
00:27:19
people. Um and it says that all people
00:27:22
have the same rights and duties. Um then
00:27:25
in 1975 the government said or the
00:27:28
parliament at that time said uh here's
00:27:31
the treaty of white tangi act. There are
00:27:32
such things as the treaty principles.
00:27:34
The white tangi tribunal's job is to
00:27:36
work them out. Um and uh we therefore uh
00:27:40
will leave you to it. over the last 50
00:27:43
years since then uh a version of the
00:27:45
treaty has emerged which has said okay
00:27:49
yes the government has the right to
00:27:50
govern but actually it's in partnership
00:27:54
uh with Maui and those equal rights
00:27:58
actually mean equal outcomes now there's
00:28:01
a couple of things about that um number
00:28:03
one if if we are seriously saying that
00:28:05
the treaty is a partnership between
00:28:07
races and that's that's literally what
00:28:09
the court of appeals said Um they also
00:28:11
said that it formed a relationship quote
00:28:13
akin to a partnership. That means that
00:28:16
forever in a day New Zealand is bound to
00:28:19
be uh two groups of people and your role
00:28:22
in society you know do I get consulted
00:28:24
on this um resource management project
00:28:27
for example do I get put on this uh
00:28:30
government board um etc ends up being
00:28:34
decided uh by this treaty partnership uh
00:28:37
if you're in the tongat pheninoa then
00:28:39
maybe you are in if you're a tangiti
00:28:41
then you're you're kind of a guest
00:28:43
secondly when it comes to the equity
00:28:45
part uh we end up trying to work out for
00:28:48
health care and education everything is
00:28:50
about take Mari as one group and non
00:28:53
Mario as another group and work out
00:28:55
statistically if they're the same. Now I
00:28:57
I just make the point that that is a
00:29:00
society which is entirely based um on
00:29:05
number one you know what's your what's
00:29:07
your ancestral background and number two
00:29:10
then we'll think about everything else
00:29:11
and I don't believe um that a society
00:29:15
can succeed uh when it tries to divide
00:29:17
people like that so my treaty principles
00:29:20
bill took those principles and said well
00:29:23
number one uh the government has the
00:29:26
right to govern the parliament has the
00:29:27
exclusive right to make laws. That's not
00:29:29
too controversial, but some people
00:29:30
actually think that sovereignty was
00:29:32
never seeded and therefore there should
00:29:34
be two parliaments or whatever, but
00:29:35
there's got to be one parliament. It's
00:29:36
got to be one law as far as I'm
00:29:38
concerned. Um, number two, that people
00:29:40
should have troang and property rights,
00:29:43
but I said, and some people will, you
00:29:45
know, argue about this, uh, I said it
00:29:48
should actually apply to all people. You
00:29:49
know, if all people should have property
00:29:51
rights, all people should have the right
00:29:52
to self-determine and live their lives
00:29:54
as they see fit. And number three, um
00:29:57
there should be equal rights uh before
00:29:59
the law. Um not not that there should be
00:30:02
equal outcomes, equal rights. So I took
00:30:05
the treaty and what I believe the treaty
00:30:08
really was intended and what it meant in
00:30:09
1840. Uh and I I put that into a set of
00:30:13
principles I think would be good for New
00:30:14
Zealand. But obviously there's a lot of
00:30:16
people who like the partnership idea
00:30:18
partly because it makes them special or
00:30:20
because they feel that they're guilty
00:30:22
because of things that happened in the
00:30:24
past and therefore um you know there
00:30:26
should be different treatment of people
00:30:28
um and for that reason it created a lot
00:30:31
of controversy. I still think in the
00:30:33
long term that version of the treaty
00:30:36
will prevail because division doesn't
00:30:38
work.
00:30:38
>> Okay. So you said that everyone should
00:30:41
have equal rights before the law but
00:30:43
after the law there shouldn't be equal
00:30:45
outcomes. So could you elaborate what
00:30:47
that meant? Because 60% of our prison
00:30:49
population is Maui and that means 20% of
00:30:54
900,000 MAI are in prison
00:30:57
>> which is kind of sad.
00:30:59
>> Well, you also got to remember I'm not
00:31:02
I'm not quite sure about your 20% of
00:31:04
900,000.
00:31:05
>> Sorry, that was
00:31:06
>> Yeah, two two% might be. Um the the
00:31:10
putting that aside um the other thing
00:31:12
you got to remember is that Mario are
00:31:14
also disproportionately
00:31:16
uh victims of crime. Uh so it's not that
00:31:20
Mario locked up more because there's
00:31:22
some sort of prejudice. Um it's because
00:31:25
there seems to be more crime. Now you
00:31:27
got to get to the bottom of why that is.
00:31:29
Um, and the case I would make is that
00:31:31
you can either uh look at people through
00:31:34
a lens of what's their ethnic background
00:31:37
and just say, "Well, that's it. We're
00:31:38
just going to divide people. You're
00:31:39
Mari, you're non-Mari. That's that's as
00:31:41
far as our statistics go." Um, or you
00:31:44
can look at a whole lot of other
00:31:45
statistics and you can ask yourself, for
00:31:47
example, um, are people rich or poor? Do
00:31:50
they live in town or country? What level
00:31:51
of education do they have?
00:31:54
The more you do this, the more you start
00:31:56
to realize that there's a whole lot of
00:31:58
Mari people who actually doing really
00:32:00
well and don't actually need a lot of
00:32:02
help. And why why should we? I mean, I
00:32:04
would count myself as one of them. There
00:32:06
are a lot of non-Mari people,
00:32:08
conversely, who are really badly off um
00:32:10
and are in prison. You know, there's
00:32:12
still more poor non-mari than poor Mari
00:32:15
uh in absolute numbers. So, uh you've
00:32:17
got to have an answer to to help those
00:32:19
that sector of the society as well. And
00:32:21
so I would just argue that if you do
00:32:23
good statistics uh then you can start to
00:32:26
address those problems. Whereas if your
00:32:28
only um answer is Mari versus non-mari
00:32:32
uh then you end up grouping people and
00:32:33
say well lots of Mario in prison but
00:32:35
also lots of Mario victims of crime. So
00:32:38
you know whatever. I I don't think
00:32:39
that's a good outcome.
00:32:41
>> Cool. If I could ask one more question.
00:32:44
Um
00:32:45
>> one more. It's a hijacker isn't it?
00:32:47
>> Just one more. But um I wanted to ask
00:32:51
you a bit about one of your I think one
00:32:54
of your best bills which was the end of
00:32:55
life choice bill that you put through
00:32:57
was it 2019 or 2020?
00:32:59
>> Uh well the bill passed in 2019 the
00:33:01
referendum was in 2020.
00:33:03
>> Okay. Um I thought that was really
00:33:05
great. But could you run me through the
00:33:08
process of how you took a bill like that
00:33:10
that was previously rejected and then
00:33:13
managed to push it through parliament?
00:33:15
Um well it it was a slightly different
00:33:18
bill but really the reason for the
00:33:20
difference was that the times changed.
00:33:22
Um the previous bill was narrowly
00:33:25
defeated uh in 2005 by about another 12
00:33:30
13 years later. Um a lot had changed.
00:33:33
More people had experienced bad death.
00:33:35
Lacricia Seals I don't know if you know
00:33:37
that name but um she was a very smart
00:33:39
lawyer who had a terrible brain cancer.
00:33:42
And the thing about these brain cancers
00:33:44
is normally if you have a cancer and
00:33:45
you're in pain, they give you um some
00:33:47
sort of opioid to try and um you know
00:33:51
dull the pain. But if the pain is in
00:33:53
your brain, then by the time you've
00:33:55
dulled the pain, you've also knocked
00:33:56
yourself out. So she couldn't be helped
00:33:58
uh any other way. She went to court. She
00:34:01
asked, "Can I uh have my doctor end my
00:34:03
life?" The judge said, "No, only
00:34:05
parliament can make that law." And I
00:34:07
looked at that and I thought, "Gee, I'm
00:34:09
in Parliament. Maybe I should try and
00:34:10
help." Uh and um anyway, her then
00:34:14
husband Matt um and I and a bunch of
00:34:18
others uh launched a campaign. But I
00:34:20
think in many ways Lacricia Seals made
00:34:21
it possible uh along with a whole bunch
00:34:24
of other experiences that people had. By
00:34:26
the time I did it, it was just a
00:34:28
different time. There was more support
00:34:30
and it was easier to get done. Still
00:34:32
wasn't easy. Well, it was easier. It was
00:34:34
still very hard. Yeah.
00:34:35
>> Cool. Thanks so much.
00:34:37
>> Oh, thanks Henry. It's a real pleasure.
00:34:39
You are a thoughtful guy.
00:34:41
>> Thank you.
00:34:42
>> Yeah. Henry, what do you want to just
00:34:44
throwing it to you for a second? What do
00:34:45
you want to do when you leave school?
00:34:46
Have you thought much about that?
00:34:47
>> Um, well, as a person at a young age, I
00:34:52
think there's a lot of things that I
00:34:53
would have to look at because there are
00:34:55
so many different career paths that I
00:34:57
could take. Politics is definitely one
00:34:59
of them, but um there are still a lot of
00:35:01
things that could be linked with
00:35:03
politics or some other things entirely.
00:35:05
Like I could be a lawyer or I could be
00:35:07
an author. There are just so many things
00:35:08
to consider. But I think hopefully the
00:35:11
more I go through school and the more I
00:35:12
learn and the more opportunities I have,
00:35:15
the more I'll get closer to deciding
00:35:17
what I actually want to do.
00:35:18
>> Yeah. Well, take your time. Don't let
00:35:22
anyone rush you.
00:35:23
>> During that interview, I was thinking um
00:35:25
from my perspective, you'd be a great
00:35:26
journalist, but please don't do that.
00:35:27
You're too good for that. Okay. Don't
00:35:29
don't settle.
00:35:31
>> All right.
00:35:31
>> Hey, really cool to have you in here
00:35:33
today for having me.
00:35:35
>> Appreciate you coming in, mate.
00:35:36
>> Nice to meet you, Henry. Nice to meet
00:35:37
you, David.
00:35:38
>> Um, how was that?
00:35:39
>> Wow.
00:35:41
Kind of wonder what you're doing when
00:35:42
you're 13, right? Um, but it was cool.
00:35:45
Hope I didn't go on too much.
00:35:47
>> No, like he's genuinely smart. Like, he
00:35:49
had some bullet points there, but a lot
00:35:50
of it was just um him reacting to to
00:35:53
what you were saying. So, I mean, it's
00:35:55
obvious I didn't set him up. He's just a
00:35:56
really, really smart kid.
00:35:57
>> Look, a lot of journalists accidentally
00:35:59
leave their notes in full view. Um, but
00:36:02
it didn't help me this time because he
00:36:03
was actually freewheeling most of it.
00:36:05
>> Yeah.
