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Welcome to the Dom Harvey podcast
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sponsored by Generate. Great
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conversations with fascinating people.
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This episode's guest is Sir Rod Drury,
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founder of Zero. How How do you feel
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about turning 60 when when it's the big
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60?
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>> I've never thought it before. Now I feel
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terrible.
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>> This is a wide-ranging conversation
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about success, meaning, community, and
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what really matters when the grind slows
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down.
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>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the
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hole in one in
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it again. Hey Finn, how's the
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performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
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here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
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investments. Get in here, Finn.
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>> Maximize. Generate.
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>> Putting performance first.
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>> Rod Drury, welcome to my podcast. Or
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should we call it a a broadcast? Why
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not? Let's call it a broadcast. That's
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how they should all be known for now.
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>> Well, I've I heard a couple of
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nicknames. Um I only arrived in
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Queenstown yesterday afternoon. I've
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heard a couple of nicknames already.
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I've heard that um Jonty the cameraman,
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he told me there's a um a mountain bike
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track that you've um helped create here,
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which is called the Hot Rod. Um and
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someone else told me, and I don't know
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if you know this, but apparently your
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nickname around Queenstown is the
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Rodfather.
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>> Uh no, I'm not the Rodfather. The
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Rodfather is Rod Barsley, who is
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in Wellington. He's actually quite a
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good mate. It's around biking community.
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That is the rodfather.
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>> So, where where are we exactly today? Do
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you want to explain or describe this
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building we're in? And
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>> yes, we're in Queenstown. Um we're close
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to Mullbrook. Uh built this facility and
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you know, some people saw it a few
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months ago when we had the Australian
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and New Zealand prime ministers here.
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So, I used to travel overseas with a PM,
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you know, like a lot of business people
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do. and um just fantastic meetings when
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you see two prime ministers kind of
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going at it. So they they were always
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good fun. Then when we brought them
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back, we wouldn't necessarily have these
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fantastic places that we could um show
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the best of New Zealand. So decided to
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build a space that we can use for that.
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So yeah, we get lots of um of meetings
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here and um we get a lot uh we get lots
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of the big boards. So it's it's for
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free. Uh just sort of people that um
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that I know and that we want to interact
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with. and it's just a bit of a give back
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to New Zealand. But, uh, the the kind of
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hack that that it gives me is like the
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first five minutes, last five minutes.
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So, um, with some of the long-term
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strategic thinking projects, been able
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to connect and just sort of share the
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stories and get people, uh, talking to
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each other and thinking big, thinking
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about vision, and you would have seen
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coming in, we've done it closely with
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Nahu because it really bugs me that we
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we're in these sort of three-year
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thinking cycles. So, EWI by definition
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are intergenerational. So taking that
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long-term custodial view um you know
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thinking intergenerationally those
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things are really important. So uh the
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design of the space and the the artwork
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we've done with Nahu just share those
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long-term values and I think they're
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really important for the world right
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now.
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>> It's a beautiful space. I'm I'm um I was
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saying to your partner before I'm from
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Palmer North which is known as a
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conference city and I've never seen
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anything like this in Palmy North.
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>> Yeah. I mean it's really important. I
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think um we you know we got to find ways
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that New Zealand can punch above our
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weight. The world's changed a lot in the
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last 5 years and um you know um uh so
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you know definitely from a geopolitical
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uh point of view it's there's never been
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so much tension in the world and for us
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as a small country we got to work out
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how the how we can punch above our
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weight uh how we can add value to the
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international relationship so we stay
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relevant. So we have the European
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Commissioner here with Todd Mcclelay. Um
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you've had prime ministers through most
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of the big boards. Um we do a lot with
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uh defense and host those kind of really
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big conversations.
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>> Now your your LinkedIn profile describes
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you as founder of zero now funemployed.
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>> Yeah.
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>> So um what does an average day look like
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for a funemployed billionaire? And is
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the average day the same as the the
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perfect day?
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>> Um well we certainly try try to do three
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sports a day. That's always good. So, um
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just started off this morning with a
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swim. That was that was cool. Um and do
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lots of foiling here, lots of biking in
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Queenstown. Uh so all those sort of
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sports, but what's um the way it's
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actually worked out with the space is
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we're pretty busy. So we've got three or
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four events on every week and they're
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also stimulating. So spending a lot of
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time in Queenstown and uh we're doing a
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lot of big uh public good infrastructure
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projects at the moment. we'll probably
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talk about. So, building a gondola,
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doing a little uh bit of work on a um
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communityowned hospital, but using
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private sector schools to create that.
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So, um really busy, but super
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stimulated. In fact, what we find is um
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by the end of the day, cuz we've been
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talking to people all day kind of by uh
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8:00 at night pooped to sleep. Mhm.
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>> And you're looking unemployment
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obviously um as you call it agrees with
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you because um like I've been I've been
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in the weeds the rodary weeds all week
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like reading everything I can about you
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watching everything I can. I think I've
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seen just about every public photo taken
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of you. I think you're looking you
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you're definitely looking better and
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healthier now than what you did in the
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zero days.
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>> Oh yeah. When you're when you're
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traveling like the hard thing about um
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doing businesses from New Zealand is
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you're on a plane all the time. So at
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least twice a month I'd be, you know,
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way overseas for and if you go overseas
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it's usually like a 10day trip and you
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know you're eating and you're not
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exercising doing those things. So it's
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really hard. So I stopped about 6 years
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ago and then I was um what's been great
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about living in Queenstown is you know
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the biking is insane. So I'd always done
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a bit of mountain biking in Wellington
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but it's kind of you know elbows in
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through trees kind of stuff. And uh
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coming here you're in the big mountains.
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Um there's beautiful machine-made trails
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and flow trails and jump trails. So, you
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know, being pretty goal oriented, you
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kind of start setting goals for um you
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know, for riding bikes and clearing
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jumps and that sort of stuff. So, just
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have a natural lifestyle. But yeah, like
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doing business from New Zealand is
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absolutely brutal.
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>> Yeah, you were such an active guy, eh?
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So, your um your uh Instagram profile
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it's you is it windfoiling?
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>> Yeah, wing foiling is my big thing. used
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to wind surf um
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>> back in the ' 90s a lot. But then um
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>> and that was one of the great things
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about living in Wellington. So doing
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software and going wind surfing was
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really fun. It was a real hot bed down
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there in uh the '90s um late ' 80s,
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early '90s. And then, you know, kids
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work comes in. A lot of really good
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mates kept uh wind surfing the whole
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time through. They're really good. And
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then wing foiling um or foiling and wing
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foiling started about three or four
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years ago and uh or really started sort
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of becoming mainstream. And then it was
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like being able to start again like wind
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surfing 2.0. And it's one of those
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sports you just, you know, completely
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addicted to. You know, you're looking at
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the wind all the time, looking at the
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forecasts. And so, yeah, it's great. And
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Queenstown's fantastic. At 4:00 every
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afternoon in the summer, the thermal
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lifts up, pulls air um from Kingston up
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the lake, and there's a place called
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Jardines that has three or four foot
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swells. So, yeah, it's insane. And then
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that with biking and everything else
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that's going on in Queenstown is it's a
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pretty fun place to live if you're doing
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stimulating brain work as well.
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>> Are you still skateboarding?
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>> Yep.
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>> Yeah.
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>> You're not worried about like breaking a
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collar bone or something like
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>> Well, no. When I um I broke my collar
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actually in Hawks Bay riding in Hawks
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Bay.
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>> Much fun.
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>> Three or four Christmases ago. Actually,
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it was a big relief cuz you know that's
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your badge of honor for mountain biking.
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So, I probably um wore my sling probably
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an extra week. And what's your what's
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your involvement with Zero these days?
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>> Um just a just a well-meaning uh you
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know insider I guess. So
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>> um spent a bit of time um just working
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on strategy and just pushing stuff in.
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But it's a pretty big machine now and
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you know results were like two billion
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revenue now. 4 and a half million
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customers. It's nuts.
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>> Yeah. How do you how do you reflect on
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this company? Does does it feel like a a
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child that's all grown up and is now
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doing their own thing in the world or
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>> Yeah. I think um I've always thought as
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a business person like your business
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isn't you and because we listed Zero so
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early I was always working on the
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business not so much in the business. So
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um and the the beauty of being a public
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company is you get to um have the
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resources execute strategy which means
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hiring great people and um uh that's I
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think is the what I really learned was
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for a CEO you really don't want to be
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doing any operational things every day.
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you want to be building the machine and
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uh it kind of I didn't know that at the
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beginning but in hindsight looking back
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because we were a listed company and you
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know you had to go out and raise the
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money and do all the presentations work
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with the investment bankers work with
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shareholders you know working with
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customers um you had to kind of have
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that team that was running the business
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behind the scenes so that's what we
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always had so um so I was always out
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there at that time I was very much on
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socials cuz it was a great way to see
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what people were saying about us to play
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with our competitors and um and also
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find talent. So going to conferences
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seeing oh that person's awesome let's
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try to get them into the business. So
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having the um being really wellunded
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from when we listed gave us the cash to
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execute strategy
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>> and you know it was a long time we were
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a lossmaking company for 10 plus years
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and
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>> in the last two years we've made and
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combined like a billion dollars of
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profit. So you know that patience and
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you know laying all the foundations
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eventually the lines cross over and then
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where where we're at today. So
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incredibly proud and you have phases.
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There's that founder phase in the
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beginning which I did and just faked it
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until got to you know where we got to
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and then it became much more about
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people and the um and um how you work
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you know with a senior leadership team
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all over the world and Steve Bamos came
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in and did a great job at that and then
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they gave us the right to have someone
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like uh Sakinda who's a serious Silicon
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Valley exec now drive the business. So
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the culture changes at all of those
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times and um as the founder I'm you know
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always sort of chip in hey have you
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thought about this have you thought
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about that and it's all good.
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>> I I was speaking to a mate of mine in
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Christ Church the other day and I said
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I'm coming down this weekend to do a
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podcast with Rod the founder of zero and
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my mate in Christ Church Kiwi um had no
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idea it was a Kiwi company. So as the
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taxi driver on the way here today
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>> um who's moved to New Zealand from Nepal
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six years ago had no idea it was a Kiwi.
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Do you do you think many New Zealanders
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are aware that zero is like this massive
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Kiwi success story?
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>> No, it's cuz they're all so young now
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and they've forgotten. So
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yeah, I mean it was um it's um I mean
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it's just wild how big it's got and um
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feel really grateful for that. You kind
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of when you look back it was so much
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work and all that travel and and all
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those things, but now you know you look
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back and you're in this pace of life.
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such a nice thing to have that as the
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foundation and that that you're known
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for and um and then that the resources
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that allow you to do a lot of really
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really good things and um you know we
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can see that you can do big businesses
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from here but a lot of um business
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success is about timing and luck and
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just doing the work. So I started Zero
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when I was 40. So I'd um already had a
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few exits and had followed all of the
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tech sort of news for years and I could
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just the opportunity of zero was really
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really clear to me. So um a lot of
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people say look is it a surprise it's
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that big? No no we could see the vision
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um but it probably took a lot longer
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than we would have thought. I would have
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thought you know 5 years we'll do it and
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sort of almost 20 years later.
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>> It's such a such a hell of a story. You
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say there's luck, but I'd say it's not
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luck because if it is, you've had a lot
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of luck over a lot of different
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ventures. Um,
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>> well, the big luck is really timing, but
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kind of luck also is, you know,
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preparation unless you take advantage
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for
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>> um opportunities. So, it had a lot of
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>> um, you know, really understood um, you
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know, technology and databases
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especially understood accounting because
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of my background, some great school
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teachers and then um, really good early
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career at Arthur Young and Ernston
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Young. So it's it's often when a few
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things come together and then if you're
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kind of an expert in those things, you
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can have conviction of things coming
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together. Um but um but a lot of the uh
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you know I really don't like that whole
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you know founder uh kind of culture
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because it's always a big team that
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makes things happen. the founder is kind
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of the one out there who's got the drive
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and the conscience to to to drive it
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hard. But actually, it's much more
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around getting a really good team and
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that and then letting people do the best
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work of their lives and being really
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quite um uh clear when um and this was
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one of the big things about a public
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company is that you get judged every six
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months.
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>> And so every dollar that's spent, every
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dollar that you earn, you you've got to
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stand there and represent the market and
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you know, represent your business and
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all your team. So you get really sharp.
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So one of the really interesting things
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was um you'd always be for you know
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you'd always try to have your your great
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leadership team. You hire amazing people
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but then um you get to a point where you
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know someone you you just got going so
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big so fast you'll just outgrow somebody
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and then you've got to sort of manage
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them out. And a big thing there is
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because human was one of our key values.
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if there was someone that was kind of
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holding things up a bit and that they'd
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be a great person a year ago but then
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you get to a you know get bigger and
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then with new dynamics coming through
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and you knew okay right got to deal with
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that we'd always like I'd always ring up
00:13:22
another CEO and I got this fantastic
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person and try to place them in the next
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role cuz they're great for businesses
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and those were awesome people that we've
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hired so we've always had this really
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good diaspora of zeros all around the
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world and um you know at the when it got
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to the end I was I was the weakest link
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you know we when it the business became
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less about product more about people
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into lockdown it's not really my thing
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so Steve came and driven drove the
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business uh there and then having a
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Silicon Valley executive now is exactly
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what it needs where you know they
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naturally think big you know we're
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constrained with thinking with having
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only 5 million people so you know so
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going right back to your early question
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is like I think as um as uh businesses
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are like babies you know you you know
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you can't really control them you try as
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as much as you can in the beginning, but
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if they're really successful, then they
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um then they have their own life and
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their own culture and their own values.
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And hopefully your values are so strong,
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they persist. But like um Craig Hudson,
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who you might know, he was a real
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champion of mental health. So that
00:14:24
wasn't a thing that um I'd had a lot of
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experience with, but after I left, we
00:14:28
became really we did a lot of work
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around mental health and um and not and
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for small businesses in our accounting
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channel. And that wasn't something that
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came from me. That came from the team,
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which I'm super proud of.
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>> Yeah. Has your mental health mostly been
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good?
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>> I've always been skateboarding and
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surfing. I'm great.
00:14:46
>> Yeah. But I think Yeah. From what I can
00:14:48
gather, it's that type two fund that
00:14:50
brings you brings you joy and that
00:14:52
extreme stuff that brings you joy. But
00:14:53
if you're running and building this
00:14:54
massive company, often that eats into
00:14:56
that sort of time.
00:14:57
>> Yeah. Well, well, it does when you when
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you're right in it. and my kids I um uh
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my daughter my second child was born
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when we started zero and she was um uh
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you know getting well through high
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school um by the time that I said
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actually I need to go and spend time
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with the kids. Um, so a whole lot of
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things I think, you know, it's all a
00:15:19
I actually think it's all a simulation,
00:15:20
but um, we got to a point where it was
00:15:22
really natural and all, you know,
00:15:23
everything lined up. Steve took over the
00:15:25
business. I was able to step back and
00:15:27
then it's quite interesting when you
00:15:28
step back cuz your identity is so much
00:15:31
what you're doing. And actually, my
00:15:33
social team was my work team because I
00:15:36
was always flying. So there was
00:15:37
probably, you know, at that point
00:15:38
there's probably a couple thousand
00:15:39
people in the business. There's probably
00:15:41
50 to 100 people that I'd see really
00:15:43
often. I had our leadership team that
00:15:45
we'd meet up around the world and you
00:15:48
know when we're not together we're
00:15:49
talking together all the time. So for 10
00:15:51
years you've got this team with a shared
00:15:53
mission and when you leave and you're
00:15:55
not the CEO anymore and I was just on
00:15:58
the board um then you're not part of
00:16:00
that team anymore. You're on a different
00:16:02
side of the fence. So, um I remember
00:16:05
when I kind of um walked out of the
00:16:07
office with my little box of trinkets
00:16:09
and uh suddenly, holy cow, where am I
00:16:12
going to live? Who are my friends? Um uh
00:16:15
what am I going to do? And it takes a
00:16:17
little while to figure that out. So, um
00:16:20
>> I kind of um
00:16:22
>> I was living mainly in Wellington. I've
00:16:25
done a couple of years in Oakuckland
00:16:26
living. Um, but I mainly lived in
00:16:28
Wellington, mainly mainly because of
00:16:29
wind surfing and uh, it's a great place
00:16:31
to do a software business cuz places
00:16:33
with not great weather tend to be good
00:16:35
for software. So, Wellington, Seattle,
00:16:37
Melbourne. Um, and um, I didn't really
00:16:41
want to keep living in Wellington cuz
00:16:43
that was my work place. Didn't really
00:16:45
want to live in Oakuckland cuz that was
00:16:46
a working place and I spent a lot of
00:16:48
time there and everyone's working.
00:16:49
Though, it's good that it's one flight
00:16:50
from everywhere.
00:16:51
>> And so, I thought I'll get a place in
00:16:53
Queenstown. It sort of felt natural, you
00:16:55
know, you know, come down for skiing or
00:16:56
something. Found that actually winter's
00:16:58
pretty cold and uh the summers are great
00:17:00
here.
00:17:01
>> And then CO happened and CO was like the
00:17:03
tide going out. So you get to meet the
00:17:05
local community and biking was, you
00:17:08
know, like you could talk to any other
00:17:11
biker in Queenstown and describe a rock
00:17:14
on a corner on any of the trails and
00:17:15
know exactly what you mean. So you've
00:17:17
got this kind of fellowship. Even just
00:17:19
the other day, I just went for a ride
00:17:20
just on my own and two mates just
00:17:22
dropped down the hill and then ended up
00:17:23
chatting for an hour riding and um that
00:17:26
that's been amazing. The community here
00:17:28
in that uh time at CO where we were all
00:17:31
here without tourists was pretty
00:17:32
magical.
00:17:33
>> So we you know we're not allowed to say
00:17:35
we want that again.
00:17:37
>> Absolutely not. But it seems like you
00:17:39
found your tribe.
00:17:39
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:40
>> Yeah.
00:17:41
>> And it's and it's like you know it's a
00:17:42
and it's the good thing about biking.
00:17:44
It's tradies, you know, it's good mates
00:17:46
um who, you know, who do sports. There's
00:17:49
a lots of smart people that are down
00:17:50
here and ride as well. So, that's what I
00:17:52
love about it down here. It's just a
00:17:54
really good community and there's always
00:17:56
someone to hang out with. And then now,
00:17:58
um Queenstown's great because a lot of
00:17:59
people from Sydney, Melbourne, Canra, um
00:18:02
and Queensland are down here as well.
00:18:04
So, through the um you know, uh zero is
00:18:07
even bigger in Australia than it is in
00:18:10
uh New Zealand. like I can't remember
00:18:12
the stats but a few years ago we pay 60%
00:18:14
of all Australians. It's nuts. So um so
00:18:17
we've got so many good you know people
00:18:19
in Australian thing that have grown up
00:18:20
alongside us. So lots of friends who
00:18:22
were starting their own little um
00:18:26
accounting firms were at our conferences
00:18:27
and we grew up alongside them. So
00:18:29
there's a really nice friendship network
00:18:31
and you know a lot of people come to
00:18:32
Queenstown. So good thing about
00:18:34
Queenstown is you never know who you're
00:18:35
going to hang out with but there's
00:18:36
always someone to hang out with. H je
00:18:39
there's been so many nuggets of uh
00:18:40
wisdom in just the last seven or eight
00:18:42
minutes. Um so I'm keen
00:18:43
>> and that was just what you said
00:18:47
no I'm hanging off every word you're
00:18:48
saying like there's so many insights
00:18:49
here. Um I want to park the zero stuff
00:18:52
and go back to that but can we go back
00:18:53
to the early years for a little bit?
00:18:55
>> Yeah I've told the story a few times had
00:18:57
um went to Nate Boy High
00:18:59
>> when I got school C I was the most
00:19:00
highest educated Drury of all time. Um
00:19:03
so I didn't even know where the
00:19:04
universities were. I thought they were I
00:19:06
thought I thought the university was
00:19:08
Palmer North and someone said there was
00:19:09
one in Wellington. I went, "Oh yeah, I
00:19:11
like that. I got some cousins down
00:19:12
there." So I went to Vic. But um back at
00:19:14
that boys High, we had amazing computer
00:19:17
science teacher, Bob McCau, and he was
00:19:19
bringing uh computers into schools
00:19:21
really early. So that got me turned on
00:19:23
the magic of programming. And then we
00:19:25
had a really good accounting teacher
00:19:27
bookkeeping really, Fred West.
00:19:28
>> Yeah. And um and it and I loved it
00:19:31
because it was like doing a Suduku
00:19:33
puzzle or Wordle, right? you're kind of
00:19:35
solving a problem. I love the maths of
00:19:37
putting things and always was attracted
00:19:39
to debits and credits just always
00:19:41
balancing. So I kind of parked that for
00:19:43
a few years. But um the computing I
00:19:46
remember thinking what I what I was
00:19:48
going to do and um and I hated the
00:19:51
thought that you'd be limited in income
00:19:52
by the amount of hours you work and how
00:19:54
much your hourly rate is. And I re I
00:19:56
remember it really clicked on early with
00:19:57
programming. You can build machines that
00:19:59
work while you sleep. This is way before
00:20:01
the internet. But I just love the idea
00:20:03
that you could build a computer program
00:20:05
that worked so your brain could make
00:20:06
these machines and that really stuck on
00:20:08
me. I went to Victoria Uni and um uh and
00:20:13
that was fun you know from a you know
00:20:15
from a I've lived in Hawks Bay most of
00:20:17
my life and then um going to
00:20:19
Wellington's all these sophisticated
00:20:21
>> fun people and a lot of people from
00:20:23
around so you know uni was great fun. I
00:20:26
didn't find the um learning stuff was
00:20:28
that good at university like the
00:20:31
computing stuff was all kind of punch
00:20:32
cards and I never really understood it
00:20:34
but um uh we had this amazing teacher
00:20:37
again uh Dr. K McCauley who was talking
00:20:39
about information engineering and it
00:20:41
must have been when OS2 first came out
00:20:43
and she was drawing pictures of business
00:20:45
and that really resonated. Then I found
00:20:47
that Arthur Young um back in the day was
00:20:50
the kind of um consulting specialist in
00:20:52
this new kind of information
00:20:54
engineering. it was kind of above um
00:20:56
computing. It was like how do you
00:20:57
diagram businesses to build systems and
00:21:00
that really resonated with a kind of
00:21:02
meta part of my brain. Um so then uh
00:21:06
ended up um uh had never been in the
00:21:09
snow cuz we didn't have any money so
00:21:10
never been in the snow before and ended
00:21:13
up hitchhiking down here. Brought a
00:21:14
snowboard off Craig from the boardroom
00:21:16
because all the skateboard magazines had
00:21:18
snowboarding in them. did a ski season
00:21:20
down here in the 80s and then um and
00:21:22
then I kind of could have gone Canada
00:21:24
snowboarding but I was really had this
00:21:26
thing in my head I wanted to work with
00:21:28
this bit of technology and I'd never
00:21:29
lived in Oakuckland before. So um went
00:21:31
and uh applied for a job at Arthur Young
00:21:35
in Oakland and um he had to do a year of
00:21:38
audit uh but I knew that they were the
00:21:40
specialist in this information
00:21:41
engineering stuff. So did did my year of
00:21:43
audit which was actually great
00:21:44
experience but the day I'd done my year
00:21:46
I went and talked to one of the IT
00:21:47
partners and said hey look you guys said
00:21:49
once I did my year I could come and work
00:21:51
for you. So ended up being the junior in
00:21:53
this really senior group of um
00:21:56
information engineering professionals in
00:21:57
the must have been late 80s early 90s
00:22:00
and um that was just insane and that
00:22:02
really then some technology happened
00:22:04
Microsoft access came out which was the
00:22:06
first little graphical database and that
00:22:09
then allowed you to take this um
00:22:10
diagrams of thinking around how business
00:22:12
works actually build software then um
00:22:15
yeah built a little team in Oakland and
00:22:16
Wellington and then we peeled out
00:22:18
created our own little company Glazia
00:22:20
sold at in the I don't know late 90s I
00:22:24
suppose and um had a really good team
00:22:26
there the good actually we just been
00:22:27
chatting on LinkedIn we're going to have
00:22:28
a reunion again shortly and um yeah and
00:22:32
that was that was it started get you
00:22:33
know understanding the process of
00:22:35
software and loved it and I think from
00:22:38
coming from a small set of rocks in the
00:22:40
South Pacific seeing this technology
00:22:42
world I used to read all the IBM books
00:22:43
and Microsoft books I just wanted to uh
00:22:46
prove that we could be as good as them
00:22:48
because you know I knew how to program
00:22:50
>> and uh that was kind of locked in really
00:22:51
early.
00:22:53
>> Um that seems like a very condensed
00:22:55
version of the first like 20 or 25 years
00:22:57
of your life.
00:22:58
>> I'm old man,
00:23:00
>> mate. We're both in our 50s. Um where
00:23:02
where does the time go? Holy Um
00:23:05
but there's a couple of things that I'm
00:23:06
curious about. So from what I can
00:23:08
gather, it's a very middle-ass family
00:23:10
from Teridale. Terodise.
00:23:11
>> Yeah. I mean, not even middle class.
00:23:13
Yeah.
00:23:13
>> Yeah. Did Did you share a bedroom? Have
00:23:16
your own bedroom?
00:23:16
>> Yeah. Shared a bedroom with my brother
00:23:18
Jeff.
00:23:18
>> Yeah. electrician dad, secretary mom.
00:23:21
Very similar upbringing to mine. Three,
00:23:22
you know, three I'm from threebedroom
00:23:24
house in Palmer North. Always shared
00:23:26
with my brother. My two sisters shared a
00:23:28
room, one bathroom for the whole family.
00:23:30
Um, what were you like as a kid? What
00:23:32
was the What was the most trouble you
00:23:33
ever got in?
00:23:34
>> Oh, um, I I skated. I skateboarded. Used
00:23:37
to And it sucked because we had this
00:23:39
shitty bowl, paradol skateboard. I'd be
00:23:42
really good at skateboarding if like,
00:23:43
you know, the dream was going to
00:23:45
Skatetopia up in Oakuckland, which I
00:23:47
never made it to. and I got bulldozed
00:23:48
before I ever got there. And uh the
00:23:50
amount of time into it, I could have
00:23:52
been a pro, but I wasn't cuz we had a
00:23:53
terrible bowl. So, um yeah, um I just
00:23:57
skated, did surf life saving and you
00:23:59
know, surfing in Hawks Bay, which again
00:24:01
was a terrible place for surfing. Um but
00:24:04
um when I got to Wellington actually I
00:24:06
remember going to Oakuckland once
00:24:08
actually when I was in um in the seventh
00:24:11
form and I'd never been there before and
00:24:13
we went at Attack Takabuna Beach must
00:24:15
have been in Easterly and I saw wind
00:24:17
surfing for the first time and I was
00:24:19
like ah I need to do that. So, um that
00:24:22
was a big passion and did that. And
00:24:24
then, um the good thing about Wellington
00:24:26
was it was really windy and um and I I
00:24:29
just loved, you know, I just worked in
00:24:31
wind surf
00:24:32
>> like Pimton out there doing big jumps
00:24:34
was fantastic.
00:24:36
>> What um did you have a stutter growing
00:24:38
up?
00:24:39
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:39
>> Yeah. Where did that begin?
00:24:41
>> Um well, I don't think anyone knows
00:24:43
where they begin, but it was a really
00:24:44
big thing of through school,
00:24:46
>> right? like primary school, intermediate
00:24:47
all the way through
00:24:48
>> uh late primary, definitely through high
00:24:50
school and then um
00:24:51
>> how bad?
00:24:52
>> Really bad. Yeah, I could hardly speak
00:24:54
and then and and then then in first few
00:24:56
years of work. So, you're always a
00:24:58
stutter. I'm a stutterer now. Um but um
00:25:01
I just do I've always made myself speak
00:25:04
so I can usually get through it. If I'm
00:25:05
tired, I'm usually not that good. You
00:25:08
>> What do you know about stutter? Is it is
00:25:09
it like a like is it like a
00:25:11
psychological thing? Is it a nerve
00:25:13
thing? How do you how do you how do you
00:25:14
overcome it? the the best I've heard is
00:25:17
it's a delayed auditory feedback loop
00:25:19
and um just the way that your body gets
00:25:22
feedback you you're just out a few
00:25:24
seconds and the re reason that resonated
00:25:26
was they've done studies where they put
00:25:28
earphones play it back start just
00:25:29
adjusting the time and everyone starts
00:25:32
displaying stuttering characteristics
00:25:34
but then the behavioral characteristics
00:25:36
of um word avoidance and all of that but
00:25:40
I uh did a um years ago did a smooth
00:25:42
speech course where you drop your um
00:25:44
speech each right down. And that was a
00:25:46
good coping mechanism. But really the
00:25:48
big thing I always um when whenever I um
00:25:52
uh went to went to a big event, I always
00:25:54
ask a question because it's scary. And
00:25:57
uh and then
00:26:00
you know to go out and actually speak in
00:26:01
front of a big group of people is the
00:26:03
most terrifying thing in the world. I
00:26:04
remember one day it must have been might
00:26:06
have been with um Paul Holmes and I was
00:26:08
doing a TV interview and uh the they
00:26:12
they do it in the Wellington studio
00:26:14
which was in some sort of office
00:26:16
building. There's no one there or there
00:26:17
might be a cleaner. They kind of let you
00:26:18
in and then you talk to them and up in
00:26:21
Oakland and uh you put headphones in and
00:26:23
the sound went bad and it was playing
00:26:25
back a little bit late and I couldn't
00:26:27
actually hear what they were saying. So
00:26:28
I always have been dear in the
00:26:29
headlights but you know doing like TV
00:26:31
with that would you know absolutely
00:26:33
terrifying but crash through it get it
00:26:35
done hard things are hard.
00:26:37
>> What sort of role did having a stutter
00:26:38
um play in shaping you as the man you
00:26:40
are today?
00:26:41
>> Um well man's a very generous term but
00:26:44
um
00:26:46
um
00:26:48
I'm really good at online shopping.
00:26:51
A man's a real
00:26:53
>> can't can't clear mousetraps.
00:26:55
>> Are you are you a man child?
00:26:58
>> A man baby. Yeah. No, I mean you always,
00:27:01
you know, you still think you're an
00:27:02
18-year-old skateboarder. You're
00:27:03
mentally writing everything as you're
00:27:04
walking around. But um no. Um
00:27:08
uh I don't think it shaped me. It kind
00:27:09
of it was just frustrating because I had
00:27:11
so much I wanted to say
00:27:12
>> and uh you know it's always really
00:27:14
awkward. It's always a big part of your
00:27:15
life. So it's pretty good now. You know
00:27:17
I get by.
00:27:18
>> Oh it it's it's flawless now. So, I
00:27:20
think for anyone that's um listening to
00:27:21
this or watching this that maybe has a
00:27:23
stutter or some sort of speech
00:27:24
impediment now, um I think it's probably
00:27:26
quite inspiring and encouraging. Are
00:27:28
your parents um still alive?
00:27:29
>> No, they um passed away in the last four
00:27:31
or five years. And one of the things
00:27:33
that really sucks cuz it used to not be
00:27:35
real until I told dad or mom. And uh you
00:27:38
know, some of the fun things we've had
00:27:39
over the last few years, you wish I
00:27:41
could tell mom and dad that.
00:27:42
>> Yeah.
00:27:42
>> Here's a tip though I would say to
00:27:44
everyone, and I didn't do this. I spent
00:27:46
quite a bit of time with both mom and
00:27:47
dad the week before they passed and I
00:27:49
wish I'd recorded them on voice notes
00:27:51
like such a simple thing just sit down
00:27:54
uh voice notes out and just get them to
00:27:56
tell stories and then you can pass them
00:27:57
to your own kids and that sort of stuff
00:27:58
but to hear their voice and intonation
00:28:01
>> um you know I just really wish I'd done
00:28:03
that but um no we had a great upbringing
00:28:05
with um with mom and dad.
00:28:08
>> Yeah. What sort of um values um yeah
00:28:10
from your your from your upbringing did
00:28:12
you sort of take into business with you?
00:28:14
Well, I think, you know, growing up in
00:28:16
the provinces, you kind of don't I just
00:28:17
think it's funny like where I'm at at
00:28:19
the moment, it's it's just hilarious
00:28:20
with my brothers and close friends.
00:28:22
Sometimes we just laugh at each other
00:28:24
cuz some of the stuff that we've been
00:28:25
able to do on the last few years is just
00:28:26
hilarious. But but always um it can all
00:28:29
you know, always be taken away and um
00:28:32
you know, we're this you know, same as
00:28:34
everyone else. I always try to be nice
00:28:35
to people and listen. I think you soon
00:28:38
learn that everyone's got something
00:28:40
interesting to say. And if you think
00:28:41
about when people are talking to you,
00:28:42
what are they trying to tell you, what
00:28:44
can you learn from them? And again, with
00:28:46
simulation theory, I think you're always
00:28:48
going to get little clues coming in. So,
00:28:50
>> um, uh, you know, we're very attentive
00:28:52
to what people say to you because you'll
00:28:54
always learn something new.
00:28:55
>> And I love, like one of the big things I
00:28:57
always found is, um,
00:28:59
>> you know, when you get a bit of profile,
00:29:00
it was really interesting at Zero
00:29:01
because some people got nervous about
00:29:03
speaking up and saying things. So, um,
00:29:05
what I'd always try to do is to get
00:29:07
people to, okay, um, you know, you might
00:29:09
even take an extreme position and hope
00:29:11
someone speaks up and shoots an idea
00:29:13
down cuz if you change your mind, then
00:29:15
you've learned something new. So, I
00:29:17
think you kind of have a model of how
00:29:19
you think the world works and uh, with
00:29:21
each new fact that comes in or things
00:29:23
you learn, it either reinforces that
00:29:24
model so you can have confidence to move
00:29:26
forward. And I love it when you see
00:29:27
something that's like, oh, didn't expect
00:29:29
that to then kind of unpack that or if
00:29:32
you're wrong. So in a meeting if I was
00:29:34
ever wrong I'd go right you're right I'm
00:29:35
wrong and change my mind cuz you want
00:29:37
people to do that.
00:29:39
>> Yeah.
00:29:40
>> Just back to your parents when when do
00:29:42
you think they were most proud of you or
00:29:44
what aspect of your
00:29:46
>> uh not in my early rugby career. Uh
00:29:51
but um I think when they started seeing
00:29:54
I had a really actually nice night the
00:29:55
other the other night. We had the
00:29:57
business hall of fame awards and I took
00:29:59
my two daughters old enough to go to one
00:30:00
of those sort of awards. they got uh
00:30:02
dressed up and came up with me to Aland
00:30:04
and I remember and and and so I was up
00:30:07
on stage with the prime minister and um
00:30:09
Dave DS was doing the interview
00:30:11
>> and um and uh and uh my friends that
00:30:14
were around the table with my two
00:30:15
daughters, they'd actually they were
00:30:17
like, "Oh, wow." They actually worked
00:30:19
out their dad, you know, is a bit of a
00:30:20
doofus, but actually has done some cool
00:30:22
stuff. And I think that's the same with
00:30:24
parents. They um
00:30:26
>> you know, they they they were proud of
00:30:28
both myself and my brother and my
00:30:30
sister. Um and they were just like,
00:30:32
"Wow, that's kind of cool."
00:30:33
>> But it's nice when you can like um you
00:30:36
know, look after your parents, get, you
00:30:37
know, sort their house out and all that
00:30:39
sort of stuff. It's pretty cool moment.
00:30:40
>> Yeah.
00:30:40
>> Yeah.
00:30:41
>> Do you remember your last conversation
00:30:42
with them?
00:30:43
>> Oh, yeah. No, I was there when um uh uh
00:30:46
the week before they both went. Mom had
00:30:48
pancreatic cancer, so he went downhill
00:30:50
pretty quickly
00:30:51
>> and dad had a a heart thing, so he was
00:30:53
um in Wellington Hospital. So, yeah, we
00:30:55
had lots of great conversations with
00:30:56
him.
00:30:57
>> So, you said everything that was needed
00:30:58
to be said. Yeah, they're proud. It's
00:31:00
just just sucks cuz both of them other
00:31:02
than um dying were actually pretty
00:31:04
healthy,
00:31:05
>> you know. So that sucked.
00:31:07
>> Time remains undefeated, eh?
00:31:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also I think
00:31:10
you go, you know, if you went, would you
00:31:12
be happy that you've done enough? And
00:31:13
I'm like, yeah. So,
00:31:15
>> um yeah, it's cool. And you know, I
00:31:17
think um it all it must all continue. It
00:31:20
just the thought that someone dies and
00:31:22
that's it. It just doesn't make sense to
00:31:23
me. Why would you have all this fidelity
00:31:25
of life and then nothing happens? So,
00:31:28
you know, I'm sure something continues
00:31:30
whether it's just you learn lessons or
00:31:31
become a better person, whatever.
00:31:33
>> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that
00:31:35
stuff. As as I said, I've done a lot of
00:31:36
research on you this week this week and
00:31:38
uh there's not a lot of personal stuff
00:31:40
about you out there. I suppose that's by
00:31:42
design.
00:31:42
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:43
>> Yeah. Okay. So, the business stuff. So,
00:31:44
you start a business called Glazia
00:31:46
Systems, which you talked about before.
00:31:47
>> Terrible name, but um it's our third
00:31:49
choice, but the idea was
00:31:50
>> nothing to do with the glass, right?
00:31:51
>> No, no, it was we that was when Windows
00:31:53
first came out, so it was like the third
00:31:54
name we threw and then I was like, "Oh,
00:31:55
we got it." Whoops. And we got it. It's
00:31:58
like h okay. But you know, but it was
00:32:00
very proud of Yeah. And it was a good
00:32:03
>> it was a starting point for a whole lot
00:32:04
of really good people. So what happens
00:32:07
when you start having good businesses is
00:32:08
then you um you have staff then suddenly
00:32:10
come and have that conversation and say
00:32:12
hey look we're going to do our own
00:32:13
thing. It's like ah how dare you. But
00:32:15
then you go actually I'm really proud of
00:32:16
that. So out of that a whole lot of
00:32:18
really cool businesses have created.
00:32:20
>> And you sold that for 7 million.
00:32:22
>> Yep.
00:32:22
>> How much of that do you get as the the
00:32:24
founder? probably under two or
00:32:27
something.
00:32:27
>> Yeah, that was a lot of money back then.
00:32:29
>> Yeah.
00:32:30
>> Well, see like a lot of people I suppose
00:32:33
this is the difference between a serial
00:32:34
entrepreneur and the average person. A
00:32:36
lot of people would be like that's it. I
00:32:38
can buy a house, buy a nice car, bank a
00:32:39
bit, I'm done.
00:32:40
>> Well, it was almost like that with
00:32:42
Aftermarket. It wasn't quite enough. And
00:32:43
we sold After Mail. It was about 30 US
00:32:46
or something.
00:32:47
>> Actually, I've got a I've got a visual a
00:32:48
visual gag for this one. Um, for those
00:32:51
of you listening to this not watching
00:32:52
it, I've got a folded servette and I'm
00:32:54
just sliding it across the table.
00:32:55
>> That's exactly what happened in um,
00:32:58
Laguna Beach, Alisio Viejo, Vinnie Smith
00:33:02
>> and uh, and I actually learned cuz when
00:33:04
um,
00:33:05
>> was it like that? Was it folded like
00:33:06
I've done with the Did they write the
00:33:08
number on in front of you?
00:33:09
>> They write, you know, and pass it
00:33:11
across. But um, I learned something
00:33:13
actually from my Glazia sale. So I was
00:33:15
sitting there and um when we were
00:33:18
selling Glazia, Tony Stewart's one of my
00:33:20
partners um you know cuz when you're
00:33:22
running a service businesses it's hard
00:33:24
work you know you just like grind grind
00:33:26
grind grind gr grind and that was when
00:33:28
the kind of first.com boom was happening
00:33:30
in the late 90s I think it was then and
00:33:32
then um uh so Tony and I were sitting
00:33:34
there and we had the um had the number
00:33:37
come across and it was great cross you
00:33:38
might know and uh and I was like wow
00:33:42
yeah I must have been my eyes were
00:33:43
opening up thinking I could get an Audi
00:33:45
RS2 or something. And then um and then
00:33:48
uh and then and then Tony says, "No,
00:33:51
no." And I was just like holding on to
00:33:53
all my fingers. I take the money, take
00:33:55
the money. And then Tony held out. We
00:33:57
ended up at seven. So double the money I
00:34:00
think about that time. That was cool. So
00:34:01
I remember so I I looked at lesson and
00:34:04
then when the um so when the neighbor
00:34:06
when the number came across the first
00:34:08
time and I went, "Holy shit." And I was
00:34:10
like, "Hm." And then we negotiated a bit
00:34:12
more and managed to get a little bit
00:34:13
more. So that was good.
00:34:14
>> Um the surv thing it's like a scene from
00:34:16
a movie. And at the time were you like
00:34:19
being a kid from Teridale were you like
00:34:20
you know what the are you doing?
00:34:22
>> Yeah. And I remember um cuz after that
00:34:24
we were the smartest guys in the room
00:34:25
for 5 minutes and then I was on the
00:34:26
board of trade me and that sold which
00:34:29
was so much more. It was like 700
00:34:30
million
00:34:31
>> a few right. So I remember yeah and I
00:34:33
remember flying back and um thinking
00:34:36
okay I really want to do accounting
00:34:37
software cuz um before I did Aftermail I
00:34:41
actually wrote a online accounting
00:34:43
system but I realized it wasn't a quick
00:34:45
build and flick. It was a long-term
00:34:47
sustainable business. So I parked that
00:34:49
idea. Well, H still had the idea and
00:34:51
then we went and did Aftermale and did
00:34:52
that mainly with a guy called Mike
00:34:54
Upshion and um Jeff and a bunch of cool
00:34:56
guys who um with the sales side and um
00:35:00
and I remember uh I can't remember where
00:35:03
I was going actually. Where was I going?
00:35:05
>> Oh no, but so after the Serviet thing so
00:35:08
you you you shake on the deal. You're in
00:35:10
Laguna Beach.
00:35:11
>> Oh yeah. No, that's right. So I was
00:35:12
flying back and I was like yeah that's
00:35:14
cool. I'm just going to do accounting
00:35:15
software for New Zealand. Not going to
00:35:16
travel as much. Then we sold Trade Me. I
00:35:18
was like, "Fuck, Sam can't win, he's too
00:35:21
young." So, I was right, we're going to
00:35:22
go big. But what I learned though from
00:35:24
um you kind of think you get up to level
00:35:26
10. And it was in the in um there's
00:35:29
actually two I could tell you some funny
00:35:31
stories, but we don't have enough time.
00:35:32
But um the the end part of it was we
00:35:35
just done this sales conference with
00:35:37
Quest who who brought Aftermail and
00:35:40
there was a guy Vinnie Smith who was the
00:35:41
CEO of Quest. He was quite a young guy,
00:35:43
had a jet, all that sort of stuff. and
00:35:45
um uh and he was at the front of the
00:35:48
ballroom with all the quest people in
00:35:49
said look we just brought after mail
00:35:50
Rod's the founder down there you know
00:35:52
he's a smart guy and I thought that's
00:35:54
very nice of him to say then I realized
00:35:55
actually he's paid all this money so I
00:35:57
better be smart so just nodded and then
00:35:59
he flipped around you think you get up
00:36:00
to level 10 and he flipped around and he
00:36:02
had this diagram and it was like four
00:36:04
corners of a of a street you know four
00:36:06
block of a block four things and that
00:36:08
was you know Quest I think it was
00:36:09
Mercury Interactive uh and another
00:36:11
couple of companies and he went through
00:36:13
and said well those guys you we're doing
00:36:15
better than them. And I realized that I
00:36:17
was a porn in his game that they had
00:36:19
brought us. Um, and we were part of
00:36:21
their strategy. And it just hit me and I
00:36:24
was like, you think you get to level 10,
00:36:26
then level 11 presents itself. And I was
00:36:28
like, right, I'm going to do a public
00:36:29
company because public company again, as
00:36:31
I said earlier, gives you the cash to
00:36:33
execute strategy.
00:36:34
>> So, um, and that was when the the the
00:36:37
um, uh, the idea of doing zero really
00:36:40
big came from. And at the time
00:36:43
um I think when we sold after mail we
00:36:46
had I can't remember the numbers maybe
00:36:48
was like 20 people and for and it you
00:36:51
know we're spending three or 400 grand a
00:36:52
month and I knew that with um what
00:36:55
became zero that I needed 50 people
00:36:58
which is like half a million a month and
00:36:59
we needed three years cuz we weren't
00:37:01
getting a big fee up front. We were
00:37:02
getting a small monthly fee. So we
00:37:05
needed to raise about $15 million. And
00:37:07
at that time the biggest New Zealand
00:37:09
venture capital raise was probably two
00:37:10
or three million. So we couldn't do
00:37:12
that. We could probably raise money on
00:37:14
the west coast but we would have you
00:37:15
know raised 25 at a valuation of 40 or
00:37:17
something. And then so we realized
00:37:19
actually let's use the public markets as
00:37:21
they should be for risk capital. And we
00:37:23
figured that you know rather than just
00:37:25
dividend paying stocks that people
00:37:26
should have a small amount you know a
00:37:27
couple of percent of their portfolio and
00:37:29
something with big upside risk. So part
00:37:32
of zero was um building really good
00:37:35
accounting software and the the
00:37:37
underlying engine of zero is best
00:37:38
accounting engine in the world because
00:37:40
I've looked at all of them and really
00:37:41
proud of that. But it was actually the
00:37:43
hack of a public company which I really
00:37:45
enjoyed and I knew nothing about public
00:37:47
companies but I could work out how they
00:37:49
you know really quickly kind of figured
00:37:51
it because I think computing gives you
00:37:53
systems thinking and uh I could see
00:37:56
actually I could see how we could um
00:37:57
build a really good business in the
00:37:59
public markets.
00:38:02
I believe there's um there's a link
00:38:03
early on between um Zero and Lincoln
00:38:06
Park.
00:38:07
>> Yes, that was their name.
00:38:08
>> Yeah.
00:38:08
>> Yeah.
00:38:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. What's what's the backstory
00:38:11
with that? I don't think anyone would be
00:38:12
familiar with the story.
00:38:13
>> Well, um well, the name Zero, we were
00:38:15
looking, you know, the um a friend of
00:38:17
mine, Guy Hamilton, his rule was
00:38:19
businesses always have to start with the
00:38:21
letter A, but couldn't find a good um
00:38:23
one for our space. Then we
00:38:24
>> You were going to be accounting 2.0.
00:38:26
>> Well, that was our working title cuz
00:38:28
that's kind of what it was. That was
00:38:29
when business 2.0 we know was happening,
00:38:30
but that was never our going to be our
00:38:32
name. It was just our working title
00:38:33
while we were finding a name. And then a
00:38:35
friend of mine, dot Johnson, who people
00:38:37
might remember back in Oakuckland in the
00:38:38
day. Um, uh, that was kind of when you
00:38:41
could go on to main services and they
00:38:43
had type a heads, you can just try a
00:38:45
holiday names. And she thought of zero
00:38:47
with a zed. That's quite a cool name.
00:38:48
It's not doesn't start with a, but still
00:38:50
a cool name. That was 100 grand to start
00:38:52
the discussion. And then um, she said,
00:38:54
"Well, what about spelling it with an
00:38:55
X?" turned out it was owned by um a guy
00:38:59
in New York and uh and then we started
00:39:03
just he was just using it for a download
00:39:05
site. It wasn't a actually a business
00:39:07
site and so we approached him and then
00:39:10
started to talk about money and then I
00:39:12
thought actually this could get really
00:39:13
expensive. I said, "Hey, why don't we
00:39:14
give you a business class trip down to
00:39:15
New Zealand and we'll look after you and
00:39:18
um just try to change the conversation
00:39:20
and he thought that was pretty cool."
00:39:22
And then his wife, they must have been
00:39:23
having a baby said, "Take the money." So
00:39:24
he ended up with like 20 grand or
00:39:26
something which was great.
00:39:27
>> Yes. So yeah. So Zero was the original
00:39:29
name of Lincoln Park or something and
00:39:30
this was some fan site that they had.
00:39:32
Crazy.
00:39:32
>> And it was also um cuz people started
00:39:35
sending me these cartoons. It was a
00:39:36
superhero character. So, at some point,
00:39:39
I don't know where they went to, but
00:39:40
there was a bunch of the um
00:39:42
>> um
00:39:44
like DC Comics, there's a like a
00:39:46
character called Zero, and we had a
00:39:47
stack of those magazines.
00:39:49
>> So, now there's buildings all around the
00:39:51
world that have like Zero um and big
00:39:53
signage at the top, but it started at um
00:39:56
apartment 404 60 Willis Street.
00:39:58
>> Yep. Flat not found
00:40:00
>> 404. What?
00:40:03
>> Yeah. What What are your reflections on
00:40:05
on on that apartment? I I believe um you
00:40:09
could smell marijuana coming in from
00:40:10
neighboring apartments late in the
00:40:12
evening.
00:40:12
>> Oh, there probably a bit of folklore,
00:40:13
but you know that was Craig and Fletch
00:40:15
and um and Katherine, Philip Ferling, we
00:40:18
just had a really nice group of people.
00:40:20
One of my biggest regrets though is we I
00:40:22
finished after mail and the guys had
00:40:24
already started doing zero and um I just
00:40:26
walked across and just started. I didn't
00:40:28
actually have a break um so I'd never
00:40:31
really had a break in my career the
00:40:32
whole way through because it was just
00:40:33
too exciting getting on to the next
00:40:34
thing. but you know did an amazing job
00:40:36
and then they were building the
00:40:37
software. I was out trying to sell sell
00:40:39
the uh IPO thing and um yeah it was it
00:40:43
was it was awesome. Couple of times
00:40:44
though we had to like stop and rewrite
00:40:46
the whole thing
00:40:47
>> like we didn't think we had to do
00:40:48
multicurrency right at the beginning. I
00:40:50
remember just having a big discussion
00:40:51
and actually this came up the other day
00:40:53
with AWS. Um we um hosted zero on
00:40:57
Rackspace. This is kind of before the
00:40:59
public cloud had arrived and I was
00:41:01
becoming aware of AWS and um for about a
00:41:04
year or two we were getting nagged we
00:41:07
should go on the public cloud but it's
00:41:08
kind of new but I remember this one day
00:41:10
I just realized we're going to have
00:41:12
to change our whole platform
00:41:14
>> and uh you know and like when you've got
00:41:17
online SAS software it's basically um
00:41:20
flying you know changing the engines in
00:41:21
a flying passenger jet because you've
00:41:23
got customers all the time. So, you
00:41:25
know, three or four times in those early
00:41:26
years, we had to basically rebuild big
00:41:29
chunks of the platform while we had
00:41:30
active customers. So, yeah, we were
00:41:32
busy.
00:41:33
>> Do you remember the very first customer
00:41:35
of Zori?
00:41:36
>> Oh, well, when we IPOed, we said we'd
00:41:38
have 100 customers. So, a lot of them
00:41:39
would have had the surname of Drury and
00:41:41
some other combinations of So,
00:41:44
>> did you um I was listening to an audio
00:41:46
book a couple of weeks ago from the
00:41:47
founders of Netflix and they had like a
00:41:48
bell which they rung every time there
00:41:49
was a customer or an order that came
00:41:51
through. Did you have anything like that
00:41:52
in Zero?
00:41:53
>> Oh, yeah. see a new customer like every
00:41:55
couple of days be a new customer. Bang.
00:41:57
Then one day we had three customers. I
00:41:59
remember one day we had a thousand
00:42:00
customers come in. So it changes.
00:42:02
>> Um
00:42:03
>> thank goodness it all worked or we would
00:42:04
have had to move to Mexico.
00:42:06
>> What were the best and worst moments in
00:42:07
the job for you?
00:42:09
>> Um
00:42:10
>> how long were you there for? Like 15
00:42:12
years.
00:42:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Um
00:42:14
>> yeah. Uh yeah, it was uh I mean there's
00:42:17
so much good moments like when we listed
00:42:19
on the stock sock exchange cuz that was
00:42:20
a real goal
00:42:21
>> on the New Zealand stock exchange and we
00:42:23
listed on the Australian one later. I
00:42:25
mean it was just really seeing I
00:42:28
remember one there was one really moment
00:42:29
we had these amazing zero. So um like
00:42:33
like accounting accounting industry had
00:42:35
never had the money spent on it that the
00:42:37
big enterprise software industry had and
00:42:40
uh at that time a comic con was a thing
00:42:43
and we used to we grew up in the kind of
00:42:45
Microsoft world and they had these big
00:42:46
conferences and I remember joking around
00:42:48
pretty early like one day we're going to
00:42:50
have these multi-day conferences it
00:42:51
won't be about us it'll be about our
00:42:53
partners and you know all of that. So um
00:42:56
we had um we we came up with the idea of
00:43:00
of Zerocon having these Zerocon
00:43:02
conferences and the last one we had I
00:43:04
think we had three or 4 thousand
00:43:05
accountants in Brisbane one I went to
00:43:07
and they're just huge and the accounting
00:43:10
industry because it was so fragmented
00:43:11
and they all had quite a small amount of
00:43:12
money and there was like just sending
00:43:14
CDs around. Once you brought it all into
00:43:16
the cloud and you had us coming in
00:43:18
building a community, one of the most
00:43:19
gratifying things was building this
00:43:21
community of accountants that we saw you
00:43:23
in each country probably twice a year.
00:43:25
So I'd go and do a road trip and then we
00:43:27
do a big zerocon events and the
00:43:28
friendships we made. But I remember
00:43:30
there was one day we had two of our
00:43:31
staff um Ashley Ash and Ash in the UK
00:43:34
and they were on stage with a big stage
00:43:37
with big a lot of people in the audience
00:43:38
and I was off to the side of the stage
00:43:39
and they were doing some sort of demo
00:43:41
and as they um crossed each other one
00:43:43
put their hand back and just gave him a
00:43:44
little kind of low five on stage. I
00:43:47
thought that's the coolest thing
00:43:49
I've ever seen.
00:43:53
>> Why Why did you think it was so cool?
00:43:55
>> Oh, it was just so cool. They were just
00:43:56
so like they were like they were like
00:43:58
the gods of of accounting and it was you
00:44:00
know some mid-level staff you know
00:44:02
really passionate doing a presentation
00:44:04
bunch of accountants people were
00:44:05
cheering and they just walk past just
00:44:07
casually no one else saw it but me just
00:44:08
this low five
00:44:09
>> it's cool everyone talks about the um
00:44:12
the culture at zero and I suppose those
00:44:13
zero conferences are part of that how
00:44:15
did how did you keep the culture good as
00:44:17
the company grew to be the big behemoth
00:44:20
that it was
00:44:21
>> um I think uh well I think that's just
00:44:23
my natural thing right so we always kept
00:44:25
Everything's pretty real. But it always
00:44:27
used to um be interesting like I if
00:44:30
you're doing the worldwide trip, you'll
00:44:31
end up in the north of England and then
00:44:32
you know there's people there that drink
00:44:34
beer for lunch and then the next day
00:44:35
you're in um in California with Dorothy,
00:44:39
one of our famous salespeople, you know,
00:44:41
who's like a like a soul cyclinger. So
00:44:45
totally different people. And it always
00:44:46
made me really sad. Our teams would
00:44:48
never meet we'd never meet everybody. So
00:44:51
our senior leadership team would travel
00:44:52
around the world meeting all the zeros
00:44:54
and we were kind of the keepers of the
00:44:55
culture but yet we had these amazing
00:44:57
cultural things and then it kind of lent
00:45:00
back to cuz we were a public company but
00:45:03
we were a lossmaking public company we
00:45:05
couldn't think short term you had to
00:45:06
think long term and that's why the sort
00:45:08
of Nahu values really resonated with me
00:45:11
because they're inherently long-term
00:45:12
thinking. So when I think about our New
00:45:15
Zealandness, those um cultural values I
00:45:18
think are really important and a a way
00:45:20
that we can contribute to the world. And
00:45:21
I think um you know obviously in the
00:45:24
beginning myself and the early team set
00:45:26
our zero values, but we really live
00:45:28
those values all the way through, but
00:45:30
they're inherent New Zealand ones where
00:45:32
we look after people. You know, we
00:45:33
didn't build a big hierarchy. We were
00:45:35
very accessible and everyone could talk
00:45:38
to everybody. Those good things that
00:45:40
people like about New Zealanders. So I
00:45:42
think those sort of indigenous New
00:45:44
Zealand values are inherent and that's
00:45:46
one of the big contributions that New
00:45:47
Zealand businesses give to the world. I
00:45:49
think
00:45:50
>> yeah. What's that like from your
00:45:52
perspective? So you start this company
00:45:53
and you're in apartment 404. Um and you
00:45:56
know everyone's name and then the
00:45:57
company's expanding so quickly that you
00:45:59
must walk into work and be like I don't
00:46:00
know who any of these people are
00:46:02
anymore. Is that um
00:46:04
>> yeah but we had um yeah it was always
00:46:05
asymmetric. I didn't know who everyone
00:46:06
was but everyone know who who you were.
00:46:08
So with each interaction, you always
00:46:10
make sure it's a good one. But we had
00:46:11
team meetings, like weekly team meetings
00:46:13
around the world forever. Um, and they
00:46:15
started off in 404, then in the old bank
00:46:18
building, and then we had an Oakland
00:46:19
office. And at that time, you know,
00:46:21
video conferencing was kind of
00:46:22
happening. So we'd have, you know, we'd
00:46:24
have a weekly team meeting forever. And
00:46:26
so everyone knew what was going on. And
00:46:28
then we're traveling so much, you go and
00:46:29
see the teams and you pop up and, you
00:46:31
know, that sort of screen and people can
00:46:32
see you around, you know, pop up in the
00:46:34
in um uh in the Denver office. and then
00:46:38
suddenly you're there leading the
00:46:39
meeting from Denver. So, um yeah, that
00:46:42
was fun. And I think that was just our
00:46:44
New Zealand uh culture was keeping it
00:46:47
pretty flat and and you know, and
00:46:49
keeping it fun but also serious. So I
00:46:52
think the the professionalism I got at
00:46:54
Arthur Young and Nston Young, you know,
00:46:56
gave you that structured stuff and so
00:46:58
you know about professionalism, but then
00:47:00
I also think you kind of rebel against
00:47:03
that and um but you want to be really
00:47:05
professional but kind of loose, but then
00:47:07
you get all the way to that kind of
00:47:08
Silicon Valley culture where it's, you
00:47:10
know, free food and entitlement, it's
00:47:12
kind of a little bit too far. So I think
00:47:14
we've always had a pretty good mix on
00:47:15
that. Yeah, it's um something iconic
00:47:18
that you've created, but uh when you
00:47:20
when you step back now, what are you
00:47:21
most proud of that has nothing to do
00:47:23
with the product itself?
00:47:24
>> Oh, um well, like I said before, I think
00:47:26
that the leadership we showed in mental
00:47:28
health and why that's why I'm proud of
00:47:31
that is because that's a value that the
00:47:32
business came up with itself, not from
00:47:35
me.
00:47:38
>> Yeah, you touched upon this before. Do
00:47:40
you think do do you do you um think the
00:47:42
key to your good mental health has been
00:47:44
your relationship with um exercise and
00:47:46
movement?
00:47:46
>> Yeah, totally doing sports.
00:47:47
>> Yeah. And I remember um I talked about
00:47:49
this um quite a bit. I was living in
00:47:51
Hawks Bay and you've got um
00:47:54
>> uh Tomato Peak up there. So um I was
00:47:58
traveling a lot, but ever I was home I'd
00:48:00
um ride my bike up the hill and you know
00:48:02
and it wasn't pretty. I'd get past by
00:48:04
pregnant woman pushing Brams, but I'd
00:48:06
get all the way up the top there and
00:48:07
then every time when I'm coming down the
00:48:09
hill, I'd have this epiphany all of the
00:48:13
things I' well the big things I'd be
00:48:15
thinking about the problem would just
00:48:16
solve like the tumblers in a lock.
00:48:18
>> And I think it's a for a few reasons.
00:48:20
One is if we're these chemical
00:48:21
computers, which we must be, then by
00:48:24
doing exercise, it flushes all the
00:48:26
chemicals. So you can't physically feel
00:48:27
the same. But secondly, I think when
00:48:29
you're doing um uh exercise that
00:48:32
requires a bit of thinking, so pulling
00:48:33
up the hill, you know, every corner,
00:48:35
every rock, um it forces you to think
00:48:37
about that, which then I think
00:48:39
immediately makes your back brain just
00:48:40
do all the work it needs to do. So every
00:48:43
day I that I did that, I'd come back and
00:48:46
I'd have like four or five problems
00:48:48
would have solved. So I'd be dripping on
00:48:51
the computer sending emails. So do my
00:48:53
ride
00:48:55
and and um you know, just send these
00:48:57
things. So I think you know daily
00:48:59
exercise and I say this to other execs
00:49:01
like make a point of just you know try
00:49:03
to get a sweat every day.
00:49:05
>> I I think um yeah sleep's really
00:49:07
important as well for good mental health
00:49:09
but how do you did you get enough sleep?
00:49:11
>> No no
00:49:11
>> during those
00:49:12
>> sleep luxury.
00:49:13
>> Yeah. What what what did like an average
00:49:15
week look like? What's you mentioning
00:49:17
you're jumping on and off planes?
00:49:18
>> Yeah. On and off planes. And I was um uh
00:49:20
we we kind of when the kids when my
00:49:23
oldest started school we lived in
00:49:25
Havlock North cuz I kind of thought
00:49:27
that's cuz we had a beach house up by
00:49:28
Marramma. So registered for the local
00:49:30
school then suddenly um uh the oldest
00:49:32
boy was um uh five so we ended up doing
00:49:35
school up there which was great cuz I
00:49:37
figured I was always in the wrong place
00:49:38
so we might as well um have the kids
00:49:40
somewhere where they could ride bikes
00:49:41
and walk to school and all that sort of
00:49:43
stuff. So I was always in the wrong
00:49:44
place. So I was traveling all the time.
00:49:46
And then um and when you're the CEO,
00:49:48
you're on, you know, you got breakfast
00:49:50
meetings, you know, maybe there's a bit
00:49:52
of a dinner. If you go to San Francisco,
00:49:55
as soon as you get off the plane, you
00:49:56
you you're on it, right? Till you kind
00:49:58
of fall into your fall into your plane
00:50:01
um on on the way home. So yeah, it's
00:50:03
it's full on. So I didn't really drink
00:50:05
much either because I sort of learned
00:50:06
that in my early years when you're doing
00:50:08
those sort of traveling. If you drink,
00:50:10
you got a hangover. It doesn't work. So,
00:50:12
yeah.
00:50:13
>> God, how many how many banked gold elite
00:50:15
years do you have?
00:50:16
>> 14.
00:50:17
>> 14.
00:50:18
>> Y
00:50:18
>> I think the only person I've um
00:50:19
>> I went and checked that a few days ago.
00:50:20
They changed the program.
00:50:22
>> I think the only person I've met that's
00:50:23
got more than you is Darren Chand who
00:50:25
was the long-term all black manager. 14.
00:50:27
Wow.
00:50:28
>> Um
00:50:29
>> Oh, there's a day when you get off the
00:50:30
when you get pulled off the secret club.
00:50:34
>> And I was like because I'm not traveling
00:50:35
as much so I got um graduated out. You
00:50:39
should um give them the middle finger by
00:50:41
your own plane.
00:50:46
>> Oh, have you got your own plane?
00:50:47
>> I wouldn't say that if I did.
00:50:48
>> No. Okay. Um yeah, you've been actively
00:50:51
looking for opportunities to make New
00:50:53
Zealand better. Um how how do you feel
00:50:55
about the mood of NZ at the moment?
00:50:57
>> We're
00:50:58
>> Yeah. Um and we and that's because like
00:51:02
um like the world's changed and we
00:51:04
haven't for some reason we've got this
00:51:06
culture we don't do much anymore and we
00:51:08
don't react yet. All the signs of the
00:51:10
world is changing so much. So like
00:51:12
geopolitically it's obviously changing
00:51:15
and um uh and people are much more
00:51:19
mobile after co so co was a circuit
00:51:21
breaker where we went from traditional
00:51:23
work to realizing you can work from
00:51:24
anywhere and so mobile people have
00:51:27
moved. So you know we've and we had
00:51:30
three or 400,000 people is it raided
00:51:32
from Australia. So that was you know
00:51:34
advert um wallto-wall radio advertising
00:51:36
job fairs in Oakland apparently northern
00:51:38
ter northern territories going after
00:51:40
electricians at the moment and we're
00:51:42
kind of passive about it. So a whole
00:51:44
cohort of mobile New Zealanders have
00:51:46
left and it feels different um than just
00:51:50
going and doing your OE and you know
00:51:52
just um got friends staying with us at
00:51:54
the moment and their two daughters have
00:51:56
have gone to Bondi and I took my kids
00:51:58
over there the other day. It's going off
00:52:00
you know the Sai bowl places um you know
00:52:02
10:00 at night there's a queue going out
00:52:05
and you know most places in New Zealand
00:52:07
you know everything's turned off at
00:52:08
10:00. So um so the world's really
00:52:11
changed and I think we've been just too
00:52:14
passive around uh responding to that
00:52:16
change and far too inwardly focused. Um
00:52:19
so I think that's a that's a real
00:52:20
problem. So uh what I've been doing is
00:52:23
um you know thinking through okay how do
00:52:25
we fix those problems and and a lot of
00:52:28
it is really clear is infrastructure
00:52:30
problems because we just haven't been
00:52:32
doing that long-term investment and you
00:52:34
know lots of short cycle thinking. So,
00:52:37
um, you would have heard some of the
00:52:38
stuff we're doing, but, um, trying to
00:52:40
use Queenstown as a bit of a test lab to
00:52:42
change culture cuz Queenstown's
00:52:44
different. It's got its own specific
00:52:45
issues. So, we have like 14 times, is it
00:52:48
30 times as many tourists as as rate
00:52:50
payers, but there's no way, you know,
00:52:52
all the infrastructure is funded by rate
00:52:53
payers. Um, we don't really get too much
00:52:56
out of the international visitor levy.
00:52:58
There's no tag GST. So, New Zealand tax
00:53:01
system is kind of interesting because a
00:53:02
lot of it just goes into the central
00:53:03
fund and Queenstown's a long way away.
00:53:05
So everything's broken here. We don't
00:53:07
have enough electricity. So the the
00:53:09
dirty secret about all the rich people
00:53:10
down here is we burn five grand a month
00:53:12
in diesel to heat our floors, which is
00:53:14
nuts. You can't get the electricity. We
00:53:17
um we don't have enough electricity
00:53:18
cables. Public transport's a massive
00:53:20
issue. Um
00:53:22
affordable housing. 70% of the people
00:53:24
that need to drive more than 2 hours to
00:53:26
a hospital were down here. Yet all the
00:53:28
demographics are that a lot of people
00:53:29
are moving down here. So, um, what I've
00:53:32
been doing there is, um, so I do a lot
00:53:35
of big strategy stuff for New Zealand.
00:53:36
I've always done that for years and
00:53:38
years. Um, and now I've got time to lean
00:53:40
in and do more of those projects. So,
00:53:42
things around the electricity markets
00:53:44
and all of that. But, uh, specifically
00:53:46
around here, we formed a company called
00:53:49
Southern Infrastructure, which is just
00:53:50
four of us. And that came from a guy
00:53:52
called Ross Copeland, who was running
00:53:54
New Zealand infrastructure, big brain
00:53:56
guy. And, uh, he'd finished there. And
00:53:58
um we started talking about these issues
00:54:00
and I said look why don't I fund you for
00:54:02
a couple of years to just do the work.
00:54:03
So uh we're doing a lot of philanthropy
00:54:07
but also I love this idea of venture
00:54:09
philanthropy where you um don't just
00:54:11
give money but you put your skills and
00:54:13
actually just do projects. So um one of
00:54:18
the uh ones that's really relevant at
00:54:19
the moment um it'll be go public over
00:54:21
the next few weeks is the um uh the
00:54:24
gondola project to fix public transport.
00:54:27
Wow.
00:54:27
>> So that's a gondola from uh um the
00:54:30
airport up to Queenstown Hill along down
00:54:33
into town. So you can imagine if you
00:54:36
were like a local government body or an
00:54:38
organization to do that, it just
00:54:39
wouldn't happen. So the idea of with
00:54:41
Ross' horsepower, we've just done all
00:54:43
the work. So we've um you know had the
00:54:46
idea, we've talked talked to the
00:54:47
community about it. We've gone and done
00:54:50
all the um uh all the designs of where
00:54:53
the stations would go. We've done the
00:54:54
work with the airport on the crosswind
00:54:55
runway. We work with Transpar where the
00:54:57
electricity cables are. We've linked it
00:54:59
in with Otago Regional Council and
00:55:01
Wakatahi on all the bus plans and um so
00:55:05
we've b you know we we've um paid
00:55:07
Jazzmax and a bunch of other people to
00:55:09
do the um uh to do all the design the
00:55:12
stations so I know what they cost. We've
00:55:14
uh involved Nahu right at the very
00:55:16
beginning because we get to hold people
00:55:17
for 90 minutes so we can welcome people
00:55:19
properly to New Zealand and give them
00:55:20
that cultural experience they want. So
00:55:22
it's a beautiful project. We've done you
00:55:24
know doing landowner agreement. So,
00:55:25
we've done all the heavy lifting and
00:55:27
that's probably cost us 4 million so
00:55:30
far. And the way I think of that, that's
00:55:32
an investment in the community. If it
00:55:34
returns and we can recycle or if we
00:55:36
don't we aren't successful, we'll just
00:55:38
pass the ball to someone else and they
00:55:39
can um take it forward. So, it's using
00:55:42
private sector schools to get to um uh
00:55:46
an outcome. So, that first bit of
00:55:49
capital we put in is the riskiest
00:55:50
capital and that's to get the project
00:55:52
stood up. where we want to get to is um
00:55:55
actually have it community owned, but
00:55:57
you can only do that once we've
00:55:58
de-risked it. So if you think about the
00:56:00
numbers, it's about a $400 million
00:56:02
project. So about 250 million for all
00:56:04
the dangly parts and then with all the
00:56:06
buildings, it's about 400. So that needs
00:56:08
about $50 million a year. We have 3
00:56:10
million tourists coming through New
00:56:12
Zealand. Um so imagine um that you
00:56:17
arrive from Melbourne and you tap in and
00:56:19
it's 50 bucks for a week, so super
00:56:21
cheap. and you drive the mode shift, no
00:56:22
need to get a rental car. The way you
00:56:25
enter Queenstown or getting into
00:56:26
Queenstown town, you jump in the gondola
00:56:29
and have this amaz and the visuals from
00:56:31
from the gondola are just incredible. So
00:56:33
if we get one of the three million at 50
00:56:36
bucks a week, it washes its face. If we
00:56:38
get two of the three million or we do,
00:56:41
you know, make 100 bucks, then it might
00:56:42
throw out 50 to 100 million of profit.
00:56:44
So how do we get the community to own
00:56:46
that 50 to 100 million in a risk-free
00:56:48
way so we don't have to burden our rate
00:56:50
payers? So that's a good example of you
00:56:52
know a lot of people's you know there's
00:56:54
a lot of there's a big narrative out
00:56:55
there that business and private sector
00:56:56
is bad. Um actually what what we're
00:56:59
really enjoying doing is this venture
00:57:01
philanthropy using our schools and money
00:57:03
to do these infrastructure projects and
00:57:06
um have them all bundled up. And if we
00:57:09
can get a gondola away in um in
00:57:12
Queenstown that could save $2 billion in
00:57:15
transport up in Oakuckland. And I think
00:57:17
because you know we've got a $250
00:57:19
million roundabout here which is insane
00:57:22
>> and everyone knows about it but no one's
00:57:23
doing anything about it. Our goal is to
00:57:24
actually have this finished before that
00:57:26
roundabout finishes. So now we're at the
00:57:27
point we've got our fast track referral
00:57:30
in. We should know in a few weeks
00:57:31
whether um it's in the fasttrack
00:57:33
process. We've done it really well.
00:57:34
We've used EW right at the very
00:57:36
beginning and their partners. Um seems
00:57:39
to be good for everyone. It's green.
00:57:41
It's part of the um um part of
00:57:43
decarbonization.
00:57:45
And but now we're at a point now where
00:57:47
we've got to now work with a bunch of
00:57:48
mid-level bureaucrats who you know
00:57:50
everyone's hearts in the right place but
00:57:53
no one's really done an urban roadway
00:57:54
before. So it's how do we make sure we
00:57:57
get really good support from government
00:57:58
like here's all the things you've talked
00:58:00
about we've done all the work we've
00:58:01
taken all the risk don't want any money
00:58:02
from you just want your support to make
00:58:05
this thing happen. So the next few
00:58:06
months are going to be really
00:58:07
interesting.
00:58:10
>> Do you have any interest in politics?
00:58:11
>> No. Well, I like talking to them, but uh
00:58:14
my um attention span's too short and um
00:58:17
>> you know, I like going biking during the
00:58:19
day.
00:58:19
>> Yeah. You you um you're so loved in
00:58:22
Queenstown. Um yeah, by the people of
00:58:24
Queenstown. Why? Yeah. Why Why make it
00:58:27
your problem? Why have you decided to
00:58:29
get involved with time and money
00:58:30
>> because if you live in a community, you
00:58:32
want to make it the best. I don't want
00:58:33
to have the rest of my life sitting in
00:58:35
traffic.
00:58:35
>> And also, I think there's a bit of
00:58:37
pride. So, it's not just for Queenstown.
00:58:39
It's um using Queenstown as a test lab
00:58:41
to make New Zealand better. Um so a lot
00:58:44
of the projects we're doing are around
00:58:45
how do we build sustainable competitive
00:58:47
advantage for New Zealand and give
00:58:48
reasons for our kids to come back. So um
00:58:51
you know it's a it's a good it's a
00:58:53
really fun it's a good use of time and
00:58:54
it's um and it's it's a higher being
00:58:58
outside of politics. It's a higher value
00:58:59
thing cuz like politicians come and go,
00:59:01
right? We've all had five prime
00:59:02
ministers and you know they're all good
00:59:04
people doing things for the right
00:59:05
reason. Um, but I think um I think when
00:59:08
you start off in business, you're sort
00:59:10
of down here and and government's up
00:59:11
here and you're like, are there any R&D
00:59:13
tax credits or grants and then you get
00:59:15
to a point where you're a peer and you
00:59:17
work alongside government. So zero was
00:59:19
that was like, okay, we have all these
00:59:20
small more small more small business
00:59:21
data. Give us some web services so we
00:59:23
can send online GST return and payroll
00:59:26
to you. We push the single business
00:59:27
number and then the um then once you've
00:59:31
done that kind of next level is you
00:59:32
realize government can't do that much
00:59:34
and it's not up to government to do
00:59:35
things. they're going to do a few
00:59:36
things. So, but you understand how
00:59:38
government works if you can give them
00:59:39
wins and do things that the community
00:59:41
wants to do and use your resources for
00:59:43
that. So, that's in the phase that I'm
00:59:45
in. And you see that, you know, like the
00:59:46
likes of um Scott and Mike from
00:59:48
Atlassian in Australia are doing a lot
00:59:50
of good things. Um, you know, so it
00:59:54
should be easier to do it here because
00:59:55
we're only, you know, there's only 5
00:59:56
million of us. We're smaller than
00:59:57
Melbourne.
00:59:59
>> From your perspective, um, yeah. What
01:00:00
What are your thoughts on tall poppy
01:00:02
syndrome in New Zealand?
01:00:03
>> Oh, it's alive and well.
01:00:04
>> Yeah. Is it?
01:00:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's another
01:00:06
there's another thing there. There's the
01:00:07
bit of a theme that's been around.
01:00:09
There's been a you know, a few articles
01:00:10
that, you know, somehow people that are
01:00:12
really successful have exploited others.
01:00:14
Well, That's just not true.
01:00:16
I've I remember being at the in in
01:00:19
Monaco at the entrepreneur of the year
01:00:20
awards and you you meet a whole lot of
01:00:22
people. Anyone successful in business is
01:00:25
um cares about the jobs they create in
01:00:27
their community. Car is about, you know,
01:00:29
paying people well, giving people
01:00:30
opportunities, people creating their own
01:00:32
their own uh things.
01:00:34
So, I just haven't seen that. I'm sure
01:00:36
there's a few bad eggs, but most people
01:00:38
I've seen in business really care about
01:00:40
the community. They work really freaking
01:00:41
hard, and they're very proud of the pe
01:00:44
the jobs that they create. And, you
01:00:46
know, I love paying people more.
01:00:48
>> I mean, I think when I left Zero, I was
01:00:50
getting like a couple hundred grand,
01:00:52
maybe it was 400 grand. Um, and I
01:00:54
remember a few years later, we're paying
01:00:55
our senior leaders over a million bucks
01:00:57
because that was the um that was what we
01:00:59
had to do. So I never got paid that you
01:01:01
know I was the best value CEO ever. But
01:01:04
um the um but to see our people succeed
01:01:08
and then go and create their own
01:01:09
businesses which create their own jobs.
01:01:11
So you know I think that's good like and
01:01:13
you know finally we're opening up you
01:01:14
know in the in the time where the world
01:01:16
has changed. It was crazy we wanting
01:01:18
people to come and invest here and we
01:01:19
were blocking them from you know from
01:01:21
being here and you know and trying to
01:01:23
venize these um villain villainize these
01:01:27
people coming through. But the people
01:01:29
come through, my experience is they're
01:01:31
very humble. They want to interact with
01:01:33
the community. They're big donors. They
01:01:36
don't use much roads. They don't use
01:01:37
much hospitals. They don't use much
01:01:39
schools. They contribute. Everyone pays
01:01:40
GST on everything. Like people get all
01:01:42
upset about a wealth tax. But um you
01:01:45
know uh GST is quite a simple good tax.
01:01:49
If you want to go and spend money, you
01:01:51
know, want to spend a 100 grand car,
01:01:52
it's 15 grand tax. spend a million
01:01:55
dollars on a home, thisund build a
01:01:57
million dollar home, that's a $150,000
01:01:59
tax. So, um this idea that um people
01:02:02
aren't paying their fair share of tax is
01:02:04
just folks. It's, you know, it's a
01:02:06
narrative that we believe. And what
01:02:08
worries me is that a lot of those really
01:02:10
upwardly mobile people that create jobs
01:02:11
are just gone. So, we've got to make New
01:02:13
Zealand great, fix some of our
01:02:15
infrastructure issues, and you know, be
01:02:17
sophisticated so that we can attract our
01:02:19
children and that back. M
01:02:22
>> I found a quote from you online from
01:02:24
2018. Is that the year you stood stood
01:02:26
down as CEO of Zero?
01:02:28
>> Oh, I can't remember anything these
01:02:29
days.
01:02:30
>> Um this quote in 2018, uh my last real
01:02:33
holiday was in 1991, wind surfing in
01:02:35
Maui. My kids are now 10, 12, and 14.
01:02:38
And what I've realized since taking a
01:02:41
step back was I flew every week or two
01:02:43
for the past 15 years. And while I like
01:02:45
to think I was a good parent, I was
01:02:47
never present. Yeah.
01:02:50
starting this company at 40. Yeah. What
01:02:52
was the sort of personal cost?
01:02:54
>> Well, I mean it was that that you're not
01:02:55
around with your kids, but um uh you
01:02:57
know um my partner did an amazing job
01:02:59
bringing the kids up and when I came
01:03:02
home I was you know I was present. I
01:03:04
didn't really go out. I've never really
01:03:06
been one of those going out people cuz
01:03:08
I'm tired and also I think when you're
01:03:10
working you get your social contact from
01:03:12
work you know you're so stimulated so
01:03:14
you know I try to be there but that's
01:03:16
the nature of building a business from
01:03:17
New Zealand. So, say you're um say
01:03:20
you're in Boston and you want to sell to
01:03:22
5 million people, you drive for an hour.
01:03:24
If you want to sell to 6 million, you
01:03:25
drive for an hour and 10 minutes.
01:03:27
>> Whereas, if you want to sell to 6
01:03:29
million people in New Zealand, you have
01:03:30
to get on a plane. You have to have the
01:03:32
money to go and do that, which means you
01:03:34
probably got to have all the governance
01:03:35
structures, you know, and and it's just
01:03:38
uncomfortably hard. And so, that's why
01:03:40
when people usually sell their first
01:03:42
business, they're like, "Ah, I'm done.
01:03:43
Thank goodness." You know, that's
01:03:44
enough. you know, we're blessed with a
01:03:46
low cost of leisure or we used to be.
01:03:48
So, um, again, going back to that story
01:03:51
about, you know, I just really wanted
01:03:52
to, um, you know, Sam put the gauntlet
01:03:55
out there. I thought, "Ah, damn it. I'm
01:03:56
going to have to go again." Um, but, um,
01:03:59
you know, it it was super fun, but now
01:04:01
I'm really happy to leave that to other
01:04:03
people. So, when you're in your, you
01:04:05
know, 30s and 40s and you want to do all
01:04:07
that international travel, it's awesome.
01:04:09
When you're a bit later in life, I just
01:04:11
want to, you know, ride my bike.
01:04:14
Yeah, I I've had a couple of podcast
01:04:17
guests on this year. Um, which both sort
01:04:19
of back up what I think what you're
01:04:20
saying. Um, Sir Peter Beck from Rocket
01:04:22
Lab. Um, he said to me, "Nothing nothing
01:04:24
great is achieved on a 9 to5 schedule."
01:04:26
>> Um, and then on the flip side of that,
01:04:28
Grant Fox, the old black, I had him on
01:04:29
and he said, "How do you spell love to
01:04:30
your kids?" It's t i m e.
01:04:32
>> Yeah.
01:04:32
>> Um, yeah. How how do your kids reflect
01:04:35
on the time spent away?
01:04:37
>> Um, have you had this conversation with
01:04:39
them?
01:04:39
>> Yeah. No, it's good. I got a really good
01:04:40
relationship with the kids and I really
01:04:42
look forward to it. And you like cuz my
01:04:43
kids now youngest is um 18. So now it's
01:04:47
about them deciding to come and spend
01:04:48
time with you cuz they're adults now.
01:04:50
They can go and do their own thing. So
01:04:52
what I love is that we spend a lot of
01:04:53
time together and um you know I've only
01:04:56
just moved into our Queens you know I've
01:04:57
been a 5year build just moved in our
01:04:59
Queenstown house and you know they're
01:05:00
all down shortly and um you know we're
01:05:03
in Wellington always catch up for dinner
01:05:04
and that sort of stuff and you know try
01:05:06
to talk them talk to them every few days
01:05:08
>> and um I mean more of an issue is um you
01:05:11
know how do you you know when you when
01:05:13
you got a few resources how do you make
01:05:14
sure your kids are normal and have a
01:05:16
hard work ethic and all of that sort of
01:05:17
stuff. So that's a and that's an ongoing
01:05:20
conversation, but you know, my kids seem
01:05:22
really well adjusted and you know,
01:05:24
really nice people.
01:05:25
>> Yeah. Was that a concern spoiling them
01:05:27
when they were growing up?
01:05:28
>> 100%.
01:05:28
>> Yeah. How do you how do you not
01:05:31
>> how do you avoid it?
01:05:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. But you know, that's um
01:05:34
seems to have gone okay. And um you
01:05:36
know, but that's an ongoing thing.
01:05:37
always always trying to check in and
01:05:40
then um you know hopefully um and you
01:05:42
try to pull them into as much as you can
01:05:44
into the things you're doing so they
01:05:45
understand you know how you um you know
01:05:48
that you're always trying to do things
01:05:49
for the right reason.
01:05:51
>> Yeah,
01:05:53
they must be proud of you. We've only
01:05:54
been sitting down for like an hour now
01:05:56
and you're you're a you're a cool guy.
01:05:57
You're a fun guy to spend company with.
01:05:59
Do they you use the word doofus before.
01:06:01
Do they do they think you're a like a
01:06:03
doofus dad or a cool dad? A lot of eye
01:06:05
rolling,
01:06:06
>> is there? Um, uh, I I I said on
01:06:11
Instagram, um, that you're coming on the
01:06:13
podcast today, so I've got a a bunch of
01:06:14
random questions here. Someone want to
01:06:16
know, uh, you're always early on trends.
01:06:19
Uh, what do you see coming that most
01:06:21
people aren't paying attention to yet?
01:06:24
Um well I had a guy from Excel, one of
01:06:26
the founders of Excel here, one of the
01:06:27
big a um big VCs and he blew me away
01:06:30
actually. He was like because everyone's
01:06:31
talking about AI and stuff. He was
01:06:33
saying no one is hiring any new people.
01:06:35
>> So and I've had a few boards in here. I
01:06:37
said look that's the mindset that's
01:06:39
going on in Silicon Valley at the
01:06:40
moment. So especially around contact
01:06:42
centers and stuff. So you know you used
01:06:44
to get that little ping on saying hey
01:06:46
your voice your um your call will be a
01:06:49
recorded thinking it was more for
01:06:50
sampling. Now it's for training. So I
01:06:53
think we are seeing the nature of work
01:06:54
changing quite significantly. But the
01:06:56
flip side of that is and I remember I
01:06:59
was um I was speaking at a thing uh a
01:07:01
few months ago and there was a a a lady
01:07:04
from a Christ Church accounting firm.
01:07:05
She was lovely, one of our accounting
01:07:06
partners and she said, "Oh, things are
01:07:08
going pretty well. It's going to get a
01:07:09
bit tight soon." I said, "Well, how much
01:07:10
are you exporting? What do you you know,
01:07:13
blank look?" It's like, "Well, we've got
01:07:14
all these global tools. So if you think
01:07:17
about your um
01:07:19
uh your customers as being you know just
01:07:22
the local people, you've got to you know
01:07:24
you got to use these tools um to move
01:07:26
forward. In fact, I've got a big example
01:07:28
I can tell you about later if we got
01:07:29
time.
01:07:30
>> But um uh you know I think that's a uh
01:07:34
that that that is really going to
01:07:36
change. But we've the flip side is we've
01:07:38
never had a better opportunity to export
01:07:40
and use our brains to export. And you
01:07:42
know with our currency rate we are cheap
01:07:44
for Sydney and Melbourne. So for any
01:07:46
services business, I'd be thinking about
01:07:48
what are you selling in Sydney and
01:07:49
Melbourne?
01:07:51
>> Does AI play any role in your day-to-day
01:07:53
life these days?
01:07:54
>> I'm I'm slightly skeptical of it um
01:07:56
because I'm not kind of working. I do
01:07:58
use it for like the odd job description
01:07:59
or something like that. But I think I
01:08:01
can see now with um I can there's so
01:08:04
many people that I respect that are
01:08:05
right into it. I'm just not spending as
01:08:07
much time doing that sort of work stuff
01:08:08
at the moment. So, but that really
01:08:10
rattled me when he was saying it's
01:08:12
actually now happening that and you can
01:08:14
see it very much in contact centers
01:08:15
those jobs going and you know you're
01:08:17
starting to see some really good multi-
01:08:18
channelannel stuff you jump between your
01:08:20
phone and the browser and um doing some
01:08:22
pretty smart stuff.
01:08:24
>> Um yeah
01:08:26
>> yeah I use um chat GPT like most people
01:08:28
I guess most most days but like if I
01:08:30
type your name in and ask it to create
01:08:32
some podcast questions it comes up
01:08:33
with some Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:08:36
>> You definitely need to like, you know,
01:08:38
cross the tees and dot the eyes
01:08:39
yourself.
01:08:40
>> Yeah. I'll give you just an example. You
01:08:41
might need to cut this in somewhere
01:08:43
else, but um so so here's an example of
01:08:46
if we don't react how things change. So
01:08:48
when um so so global operators operate
01:08:53
in a lowcost capital environment with a
01:08:55
low marginal cost to come to a new
01:08:56
country. So if you go right back um uh
01:09:00
we used to be really proud of our
01:09:02
domestic payments network our F-POS
01:09:04
system and then um we also then on
01:09:07
parallel on the same devices always had
01:09:09
the credit card schemes which is a 2 and
01:09:11
a half 3% tax when
01:09:14
um Apple Pay came in everyone started
01:09:17
tapping suddenly the use of
01:09:19
international credit cards just gone
01:09:21
through the roof and then we've seen you
01:09:22
know a lot of global companies now
01:09:23
they're providing those payment services
01:09:25
on international rails with FPOS, you
01:09:28
know, there's a fixed fee to the
01:09:29
merchant and doesn't cost too much.
01:09:31
Money moves straight away with credit
01:09:32
cards, two two and a half, 3% tax. So, a
01:09:35
friend of ours who um runs a uh tourist
01:09:37
business here, she pays $70,000 a year
01:09:40
just in credit card fees, you know,
01:09:42
insane. Like that's that's an employee.
01:09:45
So then um then we saw the likes of Uber
01:09:48
arrive and you know, amazing taxi
01:09:50
experience. you know, you can see where
01:09:51
the cars come, but their business is
01:09:53
around getting the most desperate driver
01:09:56
with the person who pay the most sort of
01:09:57
thing. That's a whole algorithm does
01:09:59
that. Then Uber Eats arrived and all of
01:10:01
our little um small restaurants uh had
01:10:04
to go on it cuz that's where the
01:10:05
customers were. So the the the
01:10:06
restaurant has a relationship with the
01:10:08
customer, but not a digital
01:10:09
relationship. So Uber grabbed that and
01:10:11
then people are ordering through Uber
01:10:13
because the food comes to your house,
01:10:14
the uh restaurant loses all the alcohol
01:10:16
sales, which was their margin. So that
01:10:18
was kind of tough. And then the founder
01:10:20
of Uber starts renting uh car park
01:10:23
spaces to build dark kitchens whereas
01:10:25
they know uh what type of food you like.
01:10:27
So they can just create a brand and sell
01:10:29
directly to those customers. So that was
01:10:31
pretty insidious. And then um we've seen
01:10:33
the likes of the um global um online um
01:10:38
online travel agents take off. So, in
01:10:40
Queenstown, what we're seeing is um
01:10:43
there's a 30% clip of the ticket for um
01:10:47
of Booking.com and those types of um uh
01:10:50
global operators coming in. And I was
01:10:53
chatting to uh CEO of a big um tourism
01:10:55
company. Now, 30% of the customers are
01:10:57
coming from that. It's a 30% clip of the
01:10:59
ticket. And they didn't even know what
01:11:01
country the the tourists coming from.
01:11:04
So, I was like, "Wow, Jus, we're
01:11:05
spending all this money on tourism, you
01:11:07
know, 44 billion of revenue. That's a
01:11:09
billion dollar revenue leakage. And
01:11:11
what's happening with AI now, uh, for
01:11:12
the big AI global companies, their, you
01:11:14
know, their example is always travel
01:11:16
because it suits a gente technology, a
01:11:18
bunch of complex stages, especially if
01:11:20
like a a flight gets delayed, then
01:11:22
everything ripples through. Um, so it'll
01:11:26
go from, you know, looking and booking
01:11:28
your own trip and you see this in web
01:11:29
search to just, hey, book me somewhere
01:11:31
with snow and build an itinerary for a
01:11:33
couple of weeks. So that 30% market
01:11:36
share could become 80% really quickly
01:11:38
which is a $4 billion uh revenue
01:11:41
leakage. So one of our venture
01:11:42
philanthropy projects has been um
01:11:45
working with New Zealand Tourism Travel
01:11:47
Industry Association and MBIE to come up
01:11:50
with a data architecture for New Zealand
01:11:52
tourism. And essentially what we want to
01:11:53
do is take the New Zealand.com brand,
01:11:55
turn it into an app and get people to
01:11:57
log in. So you'll come in um we'll get
01:11:59
all the directory listings right for all
01:12:01
the New Zealand um tourism operators. So
01:12:05
they have amazing listings um and then
01:12:08
uh they'll be displayed in an app. So
01:12:10
you'll be able to just you know download
01:12:12
new zealand.com app um you can um uh you
01:12:16
know see a bunch of stuff but then you
01:12:18
want to save favorites. So you log in
01:12:19
that's been one login with Apple log
01:12:21
with Google login with Meta. Soon as you
01:12:23
have that, then you've got a way to
01:12:24
communicate to all of our tourists. So
01:12:26
you know about before they hit the
01:12:28
country, they're investigating when they
01:12:30
hit the New Zealand Wi-Fi, when they
01:12:32
land, if they're in the WCO and we want
01:12:34
to push people to WOMO caves, it's a bit
01:12:36
light, you can do that and when they
01:12:38
leave, they have a high affinity to
01:12:39
spend on New Zealand companies. So
01:12:41
actually working together as a team, uh
01:12:44
we should be building that um that New
01:12:47
Zealand travel experience. uh which then
01:12:50
means that the tourism operators can
01:12:51
take some of their inventory, get paid
01:12:53
straight away and get full money and all
01:12:54
that sort of stuff. So again, if we
01:12:56
wanted to do that commercially, you just
01:12:58
be booking.com minus 10%. But for that
01:13:00
one, we said actually this is one that
01:13:02
we should work in New Zealand and
01:13:04
because the each individual operator
01:13:06
isn't that um doesn't have the resources
01:13:09
to build all these things. And what came
01:13:11
out through interviewing a bunch of
01:13:12
people was actually if you're on the one
01:13:15
of the overseas um AI engines that's all
01:13:19
about revenue maximization here. We want
01:13:21
to know about indigenous businesses,
01:13:23
sustainable businesses. So we need to
01:13:25
build our own national algorithm for our
01:13:27
visitors coming in to give us our
01:13:28
experience. So that's a really fun one
01:13:31
because we're fighting the normal
01:13:32
bureaucracy that would be hands off to
01:13:35
say, "Oh, we can't do that. The market
01:13:36
will do that." But if the market does
01:13:38
it, we'll end up just Booking.com minus
01:13:39
10%. And so that's a good example of
01:13:43
where we can um we can step in bit of
01:13:45
venture philanthropy. So I probably
01:13:47
spend about half a million bucks on that
01:13:48
one. And now we're just saying, okay,
01:13:50
we've done that. Can you We're just
01:13:52
asking for all the the travel grants.
01:13:54
Can we have like a million and a half to
01:13:55
do the first year that'll go to a third
01:13:57
party that's building it for us? and um
01:14:00
and that it should get get um to a self
01:14:02
sustainable mode, but that has a impact
01:14:05
of billions of dollars of revenue that
01:14:07
will leak. So those are kind of another
01:14:10
fun project we're doing at the moment.
01:14:12
>> Are you ever able to switch off?
01:14:14
>> No. Well, when I go um yeah, switching
01:14:17
off for the week. No, it's um but I do
01:14:20
sports like you know, I'll go and do
01:14:22
wing foiling and you know, have an hour
01:14:23
just trying to catch waves.
01:14:26
>> Yeah. When I had Stefan back on the
01:14:27
podcast, he he he likes doing it. He
01:14:29
likes flying and he likes driving fast
01:14:31
cars because he said it's the um
01:14:33
>> the only activities he's found that he
01:14:35
can do where he's not thinking about how
01:14:37
to develop rockets and improve Rocket
01:14:39
Lab.
01:14:40
>> Is it the same for you? You need to be
01:14:42
doing things where you're completely in
01:14:43
the moment. Um,
01:14:44
>> are you are you able to watch movies
01:14:46
with your partner in the evening or
01:14:48
>> honestly we've been trying but we fall
01:14:49
asleep cuz cuz we're so stimulated
01:14:53
during the day talking to interesting
01:14:54
people and that's accelerated since
01:14:55
we've had this meeting space.
01:14:57
>> Yeah.
01:14:57
>> Yeah. But we like you know the few other
01:15:00
fun projects we're doing. So so so the
01:15:02
gond we've talked about the other one is
01:15:03
trying to solve the um solve uh the
01:15:07
hospital crisis. You can't have a baby
01:15:08
in Queenstown as an example. So I had
01:15:11
actually had a good chat to Bill English
01:15:12
the other day and said government should
01:15:13
not own hospitals cost them three times
01:15:15
as much to build and twice as much to
01:15:17
operate. So um what we're doing there is
01:15:20
um we again like we've done with the
01:15:22
gondola we've just spent the money but a
01:15:24
venture philanthropy to do the work. So
01:15:26
Joseph Mooney, local MP, kicked us off,
01:15:28
worked with a great lady called Helen
01:15:29
Foot that started to quantify what's the
01:15:32
um public demand for, you know, for the
01:15:34
size of people and our growth rates.
01:15:36
What should we have here? And therefore,
01:15:39
um, uh, you know, there so the
01:15:42
government should spend that money
01:15:43
because of the people that are here.
01:15:45
Then we've said, okay, well, what are
01:15:46
what's the private sector doing? So
01:15:48
there's quite a lot of private hospital
01:15:49
and in Queenstown you got a lot of
01:15:50
opportunities for um private medicine
01:15:53
coming from overseas and often the
01:15:55
doctors flip between public and private.
01:15:56
So we've quantified that there's a bunch
01:15:59
of sort of really good um uh uh medical
01:16:03
research done in Queenstown and it's a
01:16:05
sort of place that could attract people.
01:16:07
So there's a four uh third bit of
01:16:09
revenue there. So you aggregate that in
01:16:11
as well. And then the fourth one we
01:16:12
found was I think I can't remember the
01:16:14
numbers exactly, but it was something
01:16:15
like the New Zealand ski industry makes
01:16:17
sort of $60 million bucks a year and
01:16:19
then we spend $45 million um on uh ACC
01:16:24
fixing up Australians that break
01:16:26
themselves.
01:16:26
>> So I was like keep it. So again we um
01:16:29
had a good chat with Scott Simpson and
01:16:31
said um hey did you know about this? and
01:16:34
um he connected us with some uh
01:16:36
officials at ACC and they were like,
01:16:38
"Oh, well, if we start charging people
01:16:40
for medical, it opens up um liability
01:16:43
for the skiffield operators." We said,
01:16:45
"Well, that doesn't feel quite right.
01:16:46
Why don't we what about if we did like a
01:16:49
no fault insurance scheme?" So, imagine
01:16:51
if um you know, venture tourists come
01:16:53
through again, we got 3 million tourists
01:16:55
a year. What if 1 million paid 100 bucks
01:16:56
for a no fault scheme? That's 100
01:16:58
million of revenue that can go towards
01:17:00
hospitals here. So aggregating those
01:17:02
four revenue pools and getting a
01:17:04
contract from government which would be
01:17:06
much cheaper than them doing it on their
01:17:07
own. I think they're spending 35,000 a
01:17:10
square meter for the Denedian hospital.
01:17:12
We think it should cost about 14 to
01:17:14
15,000 a square meter. So we will um
01:17:17
stand up and build a privately owned
01:17:19
hospital that does the public and the
01:17:20
private and then get ends up being
01:17:22
community owned with these things to
01:17:24
make a profit. So it's a good example of
01:17:26
a public private collaboration for
01:17:28
community good and I think a lot of New
01:17:30
Zealand business people are working on
01:17:32
that model but you know then you've got
01:17:34
to explain that to people. People go oh
01:17:35
private hospital I can't go. No no no no
01:17:36
no we're just aggregating between if you
01:17:39
want to buy some stuff then you know you
01:17:41
can pay for that but there should be a
01:17:42
public obligation as well and that'll be
01:17:44
really cost effective for New Zealand
01:17:45
taxpayers and then we're doing the
01:17:47
policy work so we can get that money for
01:17:49
tourists coming in to help fund our
01:17:51
local hospital as well. How do you how
01:17:54
do you decide what ventures to get
01:17:55
involved with and what to steer clear
01:17:57
of? Your inbox must be full.
01:17:59
>> Yeah.
01:18:00
>> Yeah. Does that become hard?
01:18:03
>> Um well, I don't respond to a lot of
01:18:05
stuff. So, if it's just a cold inbound,
01:18:06
you say, "Oh, I'm sorry I'm not." But
01:18:08
actually, no. If if um I don't know you,
01:18:11
then I kind of I've kind of made the
01:18:13
decision that I don't owe anybody a
01:18:14
response. But always try to be
01:18:16
encouraging. Get a lot of people wanting
01:18:17
a bit of help or um some business
01:18:19
people. But you know like if someone
01:18:22
says hey can I catch up 50 minutes 15
01:18:24
minutes I got a great idea first of all
01:18:26
it's never 15 minutes and ideas are easy
01:18:28
you know lots of ideas it's actually
01:18:30
execution and stuff so and often it's
01:18:33
like hey we'll send me a one pager and
01:18:34
then maybe 1% of the time you actually
01:18:37
get the one pager back but um if people
01:18:40
are approaching um you know people like
01:18:43
uh Peter Beck you want to you know get a
01:18:45
short summary that they can pass on
01:18:47
because if it's something you you're not
01:18:48
interested in you might know who would
01:18:50
be. And so getting and and if you can
01:18:53
get your idea on one or three pages, it
01:18:55
just shows you you've done a lot of
01:18:56
thinking. You understand the market,
01:18:58
you've got a pathway. So that
01:19:00
immediately gauges exactly where that
01:19:02
business is at. But ideas are easy.
01:19:03
Everyone's got lots of ideas. It's
01:19:05
actually execution which is hard.
01:19:07
>> Are there any that stand out as um more
01:19:09
wacky or weird things every day, but um
01:19:13
>> I mean a big one, everyone thinks they
01:19:14
can build a new auction system. And I
01:19:16
remember Sam from TradeMe. I was on the
01:19:18
trade me board. He, you know, everyone
01:19:21
asked him, "Oh, there's this new thing
01:19:22
starting." He said, "Look, let's just
01:19:23
have a rule. If if if anyone gets to
01:19:25
more than 1% of our market share, we'll
01:19:27
talk about it."
01:19:28
>> So, like building uh two-sided
01:19:30
marketplaces is incredibly difficult.
01:19:32
You've got to have a way to get, you
01:19:34
know, one of the sides on that the other
01:19:36
side comes in. Uh that's usually the
01:19:38
hardest thing is like marketing. So, you
01:19:40
know, building software can be pretty
01:19:41
easy, but um uh actually building a
01:19:44
business around software is can be
01:19:46
really hard.
01:19:48
Um, one thing I've I've read and heard a
01:19:50
lot about with you is um, a theory of
01:19:52
thinking in decades.
01:19:53
>> Yeah.
01:19:53
>> And I'm curious to know like at this age
01:19:55
and stage of life, what 57?
01:19:57
>> 59.
01:19:58
>> 59.
01:19:59
>> Yeah.
01:19:59
>> Um, yeah. How does that show up in your
01:20:01
day-to-day choices?
01:20:03
>> Well, I think that's why we do a lot
01:20:04
with Nahu cuz it is intergenerational
01:20:07
and it takes uh, you know, relationships
01:20:09
take time. So even with our journey
01:20:11
inside Nitahu, not pushing anything
01:20:12
really hard, got some big ideas there,
01:20:14
but it's always presented like um you
01:20:17
know, here's some things we're thinking
01:20:18
and then you know, you go through a
01:20:19
networking plan of talking to everybody.
01:20:22
Um but I, you know, I think kind of race
01:20:24
relationships, race relationships in New
01:20:26
Zealand haven't been this bad for a long
01:20:28
time.
01:20:29
>> And yet I think there's some and and
01:20:32
we're spending a lot of time inwardly
01:20:33
focused. And if you're arguing about
01:20:35
historical resources and there's winners
01:20:37
and lo losers, that's a really hard
01:20:39
thing. and it becomes a lot of tension.
01:20:42
So, what I've been doing is thinking
01:20:43
about what are the things that we can
01:20:45
work together on um which use the best
01:20:47
of our long-term thinking and values cuz
01:20:49
people overseas love the um the the kind
01:20:53
of um the brand of the indigenous values
01:20:56
we have here. You know, very different
01:20:57
to Australia, very different to a whole
01:20:58
lot of other places. And I think that uh
01:21:00
with the world being as it's at where
01:21:02
you know we're in this kind of kind of
01:21:04
dark phase being able to demonstrate
01:21:06
really good values for the environment
01:21:08
and equality and um indigenous
01:21:10
relationships I think are really
01:21:11
important and you think about you know
01:21:13
that in a defense context a lot of it is
01:21:16
around indigenous issues all around the
01:21:18
world. So we have a leadership role we
01:21:19
can play there and we do with our SAS
01:21:21
and and things like that. Um also I
01:21:23
think water storage is a really
01:21:25
interesting one. So, um, uh, you know,
01:21:29
we know the electricity markets, uh,
01:21:31
broken. Um, I think we should do
01:21:33
structural separation because it's hard
01:21:34
having listed companies that do
01:21:36
long-term investment. So, I think, um,
01:21:39
break break it in two, have our, you
01:21:42
know, do a buyback of our generation
01:21:43
assets, fund it through overseas super
01:21:46
funds who need to write big big big
01:21:47
checks. You flip it all to 5%. And um
01:21:50
and then the uh what's left of uh the
01:21:54
retailers, they then have the lowest
01:21:56
cost renewable energy in the world to
01:21:57
start from because we've got to be
01:21:59
investing in smart meters and all that
01:22:00
stuff uh locally as well. But having a
01:22:03
vision of having the lowest cost
01:22:04
renewable energy in the world and that
01:22:06
should be playing to our strengths. And
01:22:07
what's great about hydro is um it has no
01:22:11
marginal cost as long as you're storing
01:22:12
lots of water, but we only store 5 weeks
01:22:14
worth of water.
01:22:15
>> And that's always been a difficult
01:22:17
conversation to have because of our
01:22:19
environmental values. But now we're
01:22:20
importing a bunch of coal and have this
01:22:22
massive issue where we've only got small
01:22:25
ports. There's only a small number of
01:22:27
small coal ships and they can be turned
01:22:29
at the heads when they're coming in. So
01:22:30
we have this massive energy risk. So um
01:22:34
I think now we're having a much more
01:22:35
mature discussion around water storage.
01:22:38
So if we can get Nitahu as an example
01:22:40
saying throughout why Panamu we're going
01:22:42
to uh we're okay to store more water but
01:22:44
we want to be consulted to do it in a
01:22:46
very environmentally friendly way that's
01:22:48
could be a big unlock moving forward and
01:22:51
um now with like AI data centers and you
01:22:54
know lowc cost renewable electricity we
01:22:56
can start overbuilding some of our
01:22:57
network. So I think that's a massive
01:22:59
opportunity we can work through and
01:23:01
there's an opportunity for EWI to take
01:23:02
the lead um to give permission to talk
01:23:04
about storing more water. So I had um
01:23:07
you know good chat with Scott Wallace of
01:23:08
the Greens. I was saying to him well you
01:23:10
know we are on water storage water
01:23:12
storage. Can we build a dam? No, we
01:23:13
don't want to flood any more valleys but
01:23:15
pumped hydro is kind of interesting.
01:23:16
Okay there's some common ground. So
01:23:18
there's some places we can start to work
01:23:20
for. But I think that's where I think
01:23:21
we're all a bit um uh frustrated that
01:23:24
we're not seeing a lot of vision out of
01:23:26
New Zealand yet. There's a lot of people
01:23:27
with vision. So what I'd love to see is
01:23:29
a political system lean in and engage
01:23:32
more with um you know some of our
01:23:34
smartest New Zealanders. Like got
01:23:36
amazing engineers through our
01:23:37
electricity industry. We know what we
01:23:39
need to do but creating the venue like
01:23:42
here for conversations where we can
01:23:44
actually plan some big strategic stuff
01:23:46
for New Zealand moving forward.
01:23:48
>> Like simple stuff on top of that is you
01:23:51
know for for Queenstown is why don't we
01:23:53
make all rental cars electric say in 5
01:23:55
years. So, it's outside of a of a car
01:23:58
renewal cycle. It's a lower total cost
01:24:00
of ownership for uh the operators. It
01:24:03
means that we're starting to reduce the
01:24:05
12 to 14 billion of um you know,
01:24:08
domestic oil and gas for cars. And we
01:24:10
could say to tourists, hey, you know,
01:24:12
you come here, you have a sophisticated
01:24:14
electric vehicle experience, and it
01:24:15
builds that secondhand fleet so that EVs
01:24:18
aren't rich people second cars. Another
01:24:20
opportunity we can do with that is um
01:24:22
our, you know, big transpower lines go
01:24:24
up and down the main highway. So, you
01:24:27
know, you can charge your vehicle at
01:24:28
home, but what you want to know if
01:24:30
you're going to have an EV as your main
01:24:31
car that you can do the road trip twice
01:24:33
a year. So, we did a bit of work a few
01:24:36
years ago with Transpower to identify 12
01:24:38
grid exit points where we should have
01:24:40
the fastest charging in the world cuz
01:24:42
it's coming straight off the main grid.
01:24:44
And um then, you know, pretty easy
01:24:46
policy. You've got then, you know, super
01:24:48
fast uh charging all the way through New
01:24:51
Zealand. You might have like a CarPlay
01:24:53
app where you can notionally book, but
01:24:54
should only take like 10 minutes to
01:24:56
charge anyway. And then all the tourists
01:24:58
that are now in these electric vehicles
01:25:00
and maybe camper vans in seven years.
01:25:01
So, we're creating jobs around Southland
01:25:04
fitting up camper vans and we actually
01:25:06
do something different. So, there's some
01:25:08
really simple big things that would
01:25:09
appeal to most New Zealanders, which is
01:25:11
frustrating. We're not doing.
01:25:14
How do you have all this time? Like you
01:25:16
mentioned earlier on, you do sort of
01:25:18
three physical activities a day. Um, but
01:25:20
from this conversation, it seems like
01:25:22
you you're just you're in the weeds with
01:25:24
so many things.
01:25:25
>> Yeah.
01:25:26
>> So much energy, don't you?
01:25:27
>> But it's just fun. So, and it feeds on
01:25:29
itself and and and all of that. So,
01:25:32
yeah,
01:25:33
>> it but like when you're um when you're
01:25:35
doing sports, you're thinking about the
01:25:37
stuff as well, right? So then and then
01:25:39
you get to you know having a um you know
01:25:42
meetings with like boards or something
01:25:44
like that. You can throw these these
01:25:45
vision ideas out and because not really
01:25:48
working for anybody just doing our own
01:25:49
thing that you're um just connecting all
01:25:52
the conversations
01:25:54
>> cuz some of the things you're talking
01:25:55
about like you describe them as fun. It
01:25:56
doesn't sound some of the meetings that
01:25:58
you're involved with it doesn't sound
01:25:59
like my idea of fun but are you um
01:26:01
>> there's coffee you know
01:26:03
>> are you are you just doing things now
01:26:04
that sort of spin your wheels?
01:26:06
>> Yeah. How how do you feel about turning
01:26:08
60 when when it's the big 6o?
01:26:09
>> I've never thought it before. Now I feel
01:26:11
terrible.
01:26:15
>> I think well the way I kind of think
01:26:16
about it is like like your 20s are for
01:26:19
um kind of working out who you are,
01:26:20
building your base skills. So for me
01:26:22
that was you know grinding it out in a
01:26:25
um accounting firm doing audit bit of
01:26:26
fun. So you're building your base school
01:26:28
starting to build a bit of your network.
01:26:29
30 starting to get a bit more senior.
01:26:31
You're um you know starting to build a
01:26:33
bit of economic security. you want to
01:26:34
buy buy a house, you're thinking about a
01:26:36
family. 40s, you're usually in that sort
01:26:38
of senior um space where um uh you're
01:26:42
thinking about um investments or taking
01:26:45
big risk with your own businesses. 50s,
01:26:47
you're kind of moving more into that
01:26:48
governance space. You know, you're
01:26:50
getting a bit more balanced. Kids are
01:26:51
getting to that, you know, right age.
01:26:53
Every year is more fun,
01:26:55
>> you know. um picking up new sports like
01:26:59
uh I had a lot of time where I wasn't
01:27:00
doing sports, I was working but went
01:27:02
started going back to Maui a few years
01:27:04
ago and there's people in their 80s
01:27:05
still wind surfing and having fun and in
01:27:07
Queenstown everyone's riding bikes in
01:27:08
their you know 70s and 80s so you know
01:27:12
when you meet someone who's still you
01:27:14
know kicking ass in their you know late
01:27:16
70s like I got still got heaps of
01:27:18
time. I I've started doing that as I've
01:27:20
gone to my 50s. I start looking for
01:27:21
aging role models and even um you know
01:27:24
I'll see Winston Peters on the news and
01:27:25
he's 80 and he's maybe in the the former
01:27:28
of his political career.
01:27:29
>> I think he's having more fun than ever.
01:27:31
>> I find that quite inspiring. You see you
01:27:33
know MC Jagger or insert rockstar's name
01:27:35
here on stage doing the Metallica was in
01:27:37
the country last week. They're in their
01:27:39
60s or early 70s. Um, yeah, there's age
01:27:42
span and lifespan. E, and as long as you
01:27:44
you're physically fit and active, um, I
01:27:47
think you can live a really good life as
01:27:48
an elderly person.
01:27:49
>> Yeah.
01:27:50
>> Yeah. Um,
01:27:50
>> I don't have been called an elderly
01:27:52
person yet, Dom.
01:27:53
>> No, not yet. Not yet. You're not. Um,
01:27:55
how do you personally define happiness?
01:27:56
And has it changed over the years?
01:27:58
>> Oh. Um you I think you know when you're
01:27:59
happy when you're happy when you don't
01:28:01
have you know when you've kind of got
01:28:02
all the uh stresses out of your life
01:28:05
>> and um uh you know I think when you're
01:28:07
doing purposeful work and you see uh
01:28:09
people you care about doing good stuff
01:28:10
that's that's always good.
01:28:12
>> Have there been periods where you you
01:28:14
haven't been happy?
01:28:15
>> Not really. I've always been happy but
01:28:17
um you know like work with sport I loved
01:28:19
it. like uh looking back it's ridiculous
01:28:21
how hard work worked for so long um you
01:28:24
know for three decades a lot of
01:28:26
international travel and all that stuff
01:28:28
but it was always fun
01:28:30
>> so um yeah I've always been um really
01:28:33
happy but again I've always had sports
01:28:35
>> and uh always had some you know good fun
01:28:37
people around me and and stuff and you
01:28:39
know like we're always laughing like all
01:28:41
work's hilarious always trying to find
01:28:43
the best gag
01:28:44
>> and that sort of stuff you know it's all
01:28:45
about dealing with people
01:28:47
>> yeah you got so much so much vibrance
01:28:49
like we're recording this at 9:00 a.m.
01:28:51
on a on a Sunday morning. Um that was
01:28:53
your call. You said, "Yeah, I'm I'm in
01:28:54
at home this weekend. Come around. Um it
01:28:56
seemed early for me on a Sunday morning
01:28:58
and you event last night and you bounced
01:29:00
in." Um you even signed off the email.
01:29:02
Oh, this will be fun. Um there's there's
01:29:04
definite So I've had three of New
01:29:06
Zealand's I think most successful
01:29:07
international entrepreneurs on Super
01:29:09
Peter Beck and Mobre and now yourself.
01:29:11
And there's so many common threads
01:29:12
between the three of you just this
01:29:14
optimism, this enthusiasm, this
01:29:16
positivity.
01:29:18
Yeah, I think um again ideas are easy
01:29:20
when you you kind of learn it to focus.
01:29:22
It's easier to start stuff. I really try
01:29:24
to focus on finishing things because
01:29:26
that's what counts.
01:29:27
>> So getting projects done and then really
01:29:30
um really kind of um celebrating or
01:29:33
marketing it. Cool. Done. Done that
01:29:35
thing cuz it's you know again you know
01:29:38
me I've probably got you know hundreds
01:29:39
of things more I've started than I've
01:29:41
actually finished. So finishing you know
01:29:43
getting crossing the finish line is
01:29:44
great and seeing the outcome. So like
01:29:46
the gondola is a really big one. Put a
01:29:48
lot of money into that personally. You
01:29:50
know, it's for the for the right
01:29:51
reasons. And so now we're at right at
01:29:53
the point where we've got to um you know
01:29:56
make sure we get it through and and now
01:29:58
we got to do the judo move to get it
01:30:00
community funded so that the money
01:30:02
doesn't go out to some Aussie super
01:30:03
funds that we actually get it community
01:30:05
owned. So um and and you know that's one
01:30:08
that's really hard focus at the moment.
01:30:10
So with all these projects there's, you
01:30:12
know, some are early, some are late to
01:30:14
kind of have a mental map of where
01:30:16
things are at. So the gondola is a
01:30:17
really important one. And then following
01:30:18
that, then the hospital one picks up. So
01:30:20
we're nudging that one along at the
01:30:21
moment, doing a bunch of work. So doing
01:30:23
some research for we'll ask ACC for some
01:30:25
numbers so we can validate that ski
01:30:27
claim. And then um you know, but then
01:30:29
that'll pop up and we're kind of in that
01:30:31
one, we're waiting for the government to
01:30:32
have a statement on their um uh on on
01:30:36
the health plans and whether there's
01:30:37
going to be money coming in here that
01:30:38
they can do that part of the lease. So,
01:30:41
I think that's the thing you get really
01:30:42
good at um at just managing a whole lot
01:30:45
of stuff because there's only a few that
01:30:46
are right in the active mode right now.
01:30:50
>> What would your report card or
01:30:51
assessment be on the government?
01:30:53
>> Um
01:30:55
I mean I you know I think um you know
01:30:57
all the the what people say is is um uh
01:31:00
you know is pretty well thought about.
01:31:02
Um
01:31:04
I uh I think the focus has been right.
01:31:07
So, you know, got to get all the basics
01:31:09
right cuz think after co things are
01:31:10
pretty grim. But I think now this year
01:31:12
what I'm looking forward to is some
01:31:14
vision projects and we, you know, given
01:31:16
a lot of ideas. Um, so I'm hoping we'll
01:31:19
get a few exciting projects moving
01:31:20
forward.
01:31:21
>> But I also think um I think what's going
01:31:24
to happen at the moment is maybe the
01:31:27
blue team will get back in again, but
01:31:29
with stronger I think New Zealand first
01:31:31
and um and ACT uh uh you know they're
01:31:35
playing to a smaller audience. So I
01:31:37
think the the most likely well there's
01:31:39
two likely scenarios. one is that um you
01:31:42
know the the coalition comes in but is
01:31:45
more fragmented which is not a great
01:31:47
position and then uh or the other one
01:31:49
might be labor in New Zealand first
01:31:51
which has just been hinted just a little
01:31:52
bit at the moment and you know again
01:31:54
Winston the kingmaker still at 80 that's
01:31:56
pretty exciting but I think that's
01:31:58
inspiring
01:31:58
>> but I I just don't it's just frustrating
01:32:01
because uh I think there's so much good
01:32:03
talent in New Zealand that is really
01:32:05
here willing to help so you know lots of
01:32:08
good conversations we need to get moving
01:32:10
into action. You know, electricity is an
01:32:12
obvious one we can solve. There's some
01:32:13
good stuff we can do around tourism, but
01:32:15
we've got to get a few small projects
01:32:17
people go, "Oh, yeah, we can do things
01:32:19
uh and and move things forward."
01:32:22
>> Does um the government or Luxen and his
01:32:24
team like you or when the phone rings
01:32:26
and it's you, are they like, "Oh god,
01:32:27
what's this idea today?"
01:32:28
>> Yeah. Um you know, I got a good
01:32:30
relationship and you know, we've had the
01:32:32
Greens in here and talk to Labor a lot
01:32:34
and um so you talk to everybody. you
01:32:36
kind of realize that um you know the
01:32:38
politicians don't they they they they
01:32:41
all kind of move through and go. That's
01:32:42
the life cycle of it.
01:32:43
>> Um but you know I get on well with Chris
01:32:46
and you know he's a good guy. We hosted
01:32:47
him here with the Australian prime
01:32:48
minister.
01:32:49
>> Um I don't understand why there's a um
01:32:52
you know he may not be resonating with
01:32:54
some people. He definitely cares. Uh but
01:32:56
you know there's hard stuff. We're doing
01:32:58
big hard things at the moment but I do
01:33:00
want to see some vision projects next
01:33:01
year. And my coaching to him would be,
01:33:03
hey, look, we've had two years doing
01:33:05
some really hard things, you know, some
01:33:06
green shoots and there is some good
01:33:08
growth in the provinces with the rural
01:33:10
sector. Um, and here's here's a few more
01:33:13
things that we're going to do. I think
01:33:14
that's what they have to do next. Um,
01:33:17
and I am really worried about some of
01:33:20
the policies which will drive a lot of
01:33:21
people off at the moment that you're
01:33:23
hearing from the other parties. So, you
01:33:25
know, I mean, we've got I mean, people
01:33:26
aren't really into politics in New
01:33:28
Zealand. Um, you know, our our local
01:33:31
mayors, you're a really nice guy. He got
01:33:33
elected with 3,000 votes.
01:33:35
>> Wow.
01:33:35
>> So, you know, you can't complain if
01:33:37
you're not voting. I think, you know,
01:33:38
maybe we have compulsory voting for
01:33:39
local bodies. We'll just get rid of
01:33:41
them.
01:33:44
>> I I know you've said you wouldn't be
01:33:45
into politics, but do you think it'll
01:33:47
ever get to the point where you're like,
01:33:48
right, if I want change, I've got
01:33:50
to do it myself.
01:33:51
>> I couldn't do what they do. I couldn't
01:33:52
sit in in parliament and uh all that
01:33:55
sort of stuff. And no, I couldn't. No, I
01:33:57
like the the freedom of being out like I
01:33:59
feel I'm far more effective being
01:34:00
outside doing things
01:34:02
>> and there'll be people that do that and
01:34:03
it's you know some great people um you
01:34:06
got to know James Miger a bit he's
01:34:07
pretty smart um you know um he talks
01:34:10
highly um of Kieran there's some good
01:34:14
people going through there as well um
01:34:16
yeah there's some really good passionate
01:34:18
people doing it for the right reasons um
01:34:20
but I wouldn't want to do that looks
01:34:21
really hard work
01:34:23
>> oh it does and um I think you just get
01:34:26
annoyed wouldn't you at the lack of
01:34:27
progress?
01:34:28
>> Yeah. Also, you're dealing with really
01:34:29
hard stuff. It's like taking the, you
01:34:31
know, the least worst option. It's all
01:34:33
compromised. And I think the good thing
01:34:35
about business, you can act in a fairly
01:34:36
uncompromised way and get things done
01:34:39
and you don't have to bring everyone
01:34:41
everyone with you and you can make a
01:34:43
difference. But I think, you know, big
01:34:44
thing about business is are you creating
01:34:46
jobs for other people and economic
01:34:48
opportunities. We had a um company I'm
01:34:51
involved with, uh, Tetratherics. uh we
01:34:53
did their IPO in Sydney a few months ago
01:34:55
and I spoke there and and um uh you know
01:34:59
when you do those sort of things you
01:35:00
just reflect and it's actually as a
01:35:02
business person creating an entity which
01:35:04
uh others can invest in creates an
01:35:06
economic opportunity not just for your
01:35:08
staff but for you know retired people um
01:35:12
you know young people investing so
01:35:14
business is good I think you can use
01:35:16
business for good and this narrative
01:35:18
that business is bad or evil or
01:35:19
exploiting workers I just haven't seen
01:35:21
that um maybe in other industries, but
01:35:23
in tech, it's all about developing great
01:35:26
people and then seeing your people grow
01:35:27
and do their own thing and helping more
01:35:29
people. Just this beautiful network
01:35:30
effect.
01:35:33
>> I'm um so inspired by the way you think.
01:35:36
>> Yeah, it's incredible. Um home stretch
01:35:39
now.
01:35:39
>> Um some personal personal sort of
01:35:42
questions, some insightful ones.
01:35:43
>> You can try. One thing, one, one thing I
01:35:46
love asking particular of um your guys
01:35:48
sort of our age in our 50s is um like
01:35:51
about vulnerability and the ability to
01:35:53
have um deep conversations with their
01:35:55
friends because it's something that
01:35:56
we're notoriously bad at. Are do you
01:35:59
have quite a good circle of friends that
01:36:00
you can talk to about about big things
01:36:02
or do you sort of internalize? What do
01:36:03
you
01:36:04
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, no, got um good
01:36:05
friends like my brother's a really good
01:36:06
friend and
01:36:08
>> um and then a bunch of you know people
01:36:09
that I've grown up with. Um and uh you
01:36:13
know um and I've got quite a lot of uh
01:36:15
some of my really close friends work
01:36:16
with me as well cuz you might as well
01:36:18
work with people that you enjoy working
01:36:19
with and trust
01:36:20
>> you know and then you can be out on the
01:36:22
boat you know having a bit of bit of
01:36:24
wake surfing and doing a bit of work as
01:36:26
well. So um yeah no no very very direct
01:36:29
and people aren't shy and telling me
01:36:31
what I need to do.
01:36:32
>> Yeah. Well, if you've got that um
01:36:34
history with them and that relationship,
01:36:36
you know, you can trust them. It's
01:36:37
>> Yeah, I like scoring a point. We all do.
01:36:40
>> Um what are you most afraid of?
01:36:42
>> Um
01:36:44
most afraid of um
01:36:47
like I hope when I go it's quick, you
01:36:50
know, like seeing mom and dad go, that
01:36:52
was pretty um that was tough seeing
01:36:54
them, you know, uh decline with illness
01:36:57
uh in a really short amount of time,
01:36:58
both of them. Um but, you know, I'm
01:37:00
pretty happy. I think, you know, lived a
01:37:01
lived a great life and got a lot more to
01:37:03
do for the next 20 or 30 years.
01:37:05
>> Yeah. What age were your parents?
01:37:07
>> Uh mom was just under 80, dad was 80.
01:37:11
>> Yeah.
01:37:12
>> Oh, you got a few good summers in your
01:37:13
yet,
01:37:13
>> hopefully. But but only a certain amount
01:37:15
of summers, right? So,
01:37:16
>> yeah, that's something I say all the
01:37:18
time. We've only got so many summers, so
01:37:19
why not now? Why not now? Let's fix
01:37:21
public transport in Queenstown now cuz I
01:37:23
don't want to spend the next 5 years
01:37:24
stuck in traffic.
01:37:26
>> Yeah. You're a doer, not a thinker. When
01:37:28
was the last time you cried?
01:37:30
>> Oh, I cry all the time, especially
01:37:31
during um uh Netflix movies. Terrible. I
01:37:35
can I can come into the credits of The
01:37:37
Notebook and bore my eyes out.
01:37:39
>> Yeah. No. Absolute crier.
01:37:41
>> Well, I'm the same. Especially I don't
01:37:42
know why, but watching um any movie with
01:37:44
a dog and at altitude like I'm flying
01:37:46
somewhere, Marley and me, it'll set me
01:37:48
off anytime.
01:37:49
>> Um
01:37:50
>> No. And like I won't just I'll gasp,
01:37:53
>> you know.
01:37:54
>> Um
01:37:55
>> people people will look across. Are you
01:37:57
crying? Yeah. Sorry.
01:38:00
>> But um regrets. You have any regrets?
01:38:02
>> No. Entrepreneurs always move forward.
01:38:04
>> Yeah.
01:38:04
>> No. One regret would be would be not
01:38:06
surfing as much and giving and not doing
01:38:09
as much of that cuz I think um I just so
01:38:11
much respect for people that are out in
01:38:13
big waves and spend quite a bit of time
01:38:15
in Fiji and you know can get really good
01:38:17
there.
01:38:18
>> Um that was one thing I'd always sort of
01:38:20
keep that out just being that you know
01:38:21
in the ocean comfortable in the oceans.
01:38:23
Um, you I got good friends that are
01:38:25
really good and spend a lot of time in
01:38:27
Big Wave. That would be I regret I
01:38:29
didn't keep that going. You know, it's
01:38:30
okay and comfortable. And then you spend
01:38:32
a bit of time off and I just don't don't
01:38:34
do as much at the moment. It's a silly
01:38:36
thing to regret maybe. I don't know.
01:38:37
>> You could get back into it though,
01:38:38
couldn't you? Get a longboard, get into
01:38:40
it.
01:38:40
>> Oh, yeah. No, still do that. But, you
01:38:41
know, if it's more than head high, I
01:38:42
don't want to be out there.
01:38:44
>> Um, what are your biggest flaws? Um
01:38:48
uh maybe I'm too nice and
01:38:53
when I see Steve Hansen on he's got a
01:38:55
theory that generally a person's
01:38:57
greatest strength is their greatest
01:38:58
weakness.
01:38:59
>> So yeah, maybe this time
01:39:00
>> I know I've got a really short attention
01:39:01
span.
01:39:02
>> Oh, I believe that. Yeah,
01:39:03
>> I believe that. You've done We've been
01:39:05
going an hour 40 and I'm I'm I'm
01:39:07
impressed that you're still sitting
01:39:08
here. I can tell you're a guy that's
01:39:10
just on the go.
01:39:11
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just And I I
01:39:13
just just do get bored and I um
01:39:16
>> uh like you know once I know I'm like
01:39:19
move on go go go. So I'm just go yep got
01:39:21
me had me at hello move on. Actually we
01:39:24
had a code word for that or a little
01:39:26
phrase if somebody was doing that which
01:39:28
um you know zero had a whole lot of
01:39:30
language. One was have you had me at
01:39:32
hello move on. Yeah that's a from Jerry
01:39:36
McGuire. That's another movie that'll
01:39:38
make you cry in the right circumstances.
01:39:40
Um what's something about yourself that
01:39:41
you're still trying to improve?
01:39:43
>> Uh well definitely all the sports and
01:39:46
you know just diet and being healthy and
01:39:47
that sort of stuff. So um you know spend
01:39:50
you and I think that's the one of the
01:39:52
kind of luxuries you get when you got a
01:39:53
bit of time is actually having time to
01:39:56
um eat properly and do all that sort of
01:39:57
stuff. So
01:39:58
>> yeah.
01:39:58
>> Yeah. What's your relationship like with
01:40:00
alcohol? You were surrounded by some
01:40:02
some of the best penonoir in the world
01:40:03
in my opinion. I I'll um it's one of
01:40:07
those things actually. I remember really
01:40:08
early I said I'm going to let other
01:40:10
people be experts in wine. So all I know
01:40:12
is I like a big thick sar you can stand
01:40:14
a spoon up in and that's about it. But
01:40:16
I'll um you know I don't really drink.
01:40:18
I'll have uh you know a nice glass of
01:40:21
wine but I won't even finish a full one.
01:40:22
No, not a lot of interest cuz I think
01:40:24
got so much stuff going on. I don't want
01:40:26
to hang over for writing in the morning
01:40:28
and um and I kind of trained it out when
01:40:30
you got you know had very young kids and
01:40:32
I was traveling a lot. I just got out of
01:40:33
it. So now if I have a drink, I have a
01:40:35
hangover and don't feel great. I'd
01:40:36
rather do sports.
01:40:38
>> And future goals like where do you see
01:40:40
yourself at 65, 70, 75?
01:40:43
>> Um,
01:40:44
>> more of the same.
01:40:44
>> Yeah. No. Well, lots of foiling go,
01:40:46
excuse me, lots of um goals around
01:40:48
foiling. That's my main sport. And um
01:40:52
but but I really want to um demonstrate
01:40:56
that we can do big stuff in New Zealand.
01:40:58
So executing some of these projects. So
01:41:00
getting the gondola done, getting the um
01:41:02
getting a Queenstown Lakes um uh uh
01:41:05
public private community hospital is a
01:41:07
really big thing for us and um uh would
01:41:11
love to get the electricity thing
01:41:12
sorted. I think we got so much
01:41:14
sustainable competitive advantage as a
01:41:16
country. It's a true platform. So I've
01:41:18
always spent a lot of time on those on
01:41:19
those types of projects even when I was
01:41:22
working at Zero and before. So just
01:41:24
getting a few of those things um done.
01:41:26
Um, yeah, just doing really good uh
01:41:29
community projects. I've still got some
01:41:30
other, you know, doing a bunch of
01:41:32
investments and got some great companies
01:41:33
that are doing good things. So, those
01:41:35
are all fun, but I'm not kind of
01:41:37
actively in them. I'm just helping great
01:41:38
CEOs do good work. So, those are good
01:41:41
and that kind of um, you know, keeps the
01:41:43
financial stuff going on and that gives
01:41:45
me time. But I spend probably 90% of my
01:41:47
time on our public good philanthropy,
01:41:49
venture philanthropy projects. M if if
01:41:52
your if your kids or some of your best
01:41:54
friends were just outside the meeting
01:41:56
hall and I asked them to say three words
01:41:58
to describe you behind your back, what
01:42:00
sort of three words as a collective
01:42:01
would you like them to say?
01:42:03
>> Hurry up. It's glassy out there.
01:42:07
>> Oh no, I think I think what what people
01:42:09
what I've people have said is I'm quite
01:42:11
good at just diagnosing where things are
01:42:13
at and just playing it back in simple
01:42:15
terms. So I think when you're having a
01:42:16
disagreement with people normally most
01:42:18
people is uh you know reasonably smart
01:42:20
and they know what they're saying. So if
01:42:21
you're having a disagreement one of you
01:42:23
doesn't understand the other's
01:42:24
perspective. So um have you explained
01:42:27
yourself right or have you interrogated
01:42:29
them to find out what their problem is
01:42:30
or they may have something that you
01:42:32
don't know. So actually when you I guess
01:42:33
you quite like conflict because you
01:42:35
usually learn something new
01:42:36
>> and um you know so like like um
01:42:40
diagnosing things in a really clear way
01:42:42
and you go oh okay then you can move
01:42:44
move ahead. So I think when you're an
01:42:45
entrepreneur and being a CEO of a um
01:42:48
public company, you know, where you get
01:42:50
judged every 6 months, you've got to
01:42:52
just you're always breaking through
01:42:54
roadblocks. And I think that um virtuous
01:42:56
feedback cycle of just fix especially in
01:42:58
software like you start writing code and
01:43:00
you've got a 100 problems to solve which
01:43:02
turn into a few hundred but then you get
01:43:04
there you get there at the end it just
01:43:06
gives you that feedback cycle of being
01:43:07
really logical and systems you know and
01:43:09
and um and systems thinking. So my you
01:43:13
know when people say I get a lot of
01:43:14
people what should I study? Anything
01:43:16
with a bit of engineering. I think
01:43:17
engineering skills give you that systems
01:43:19
thinking which apply to all parts of
01:43:21
your life.
01:43:23
>> Yeah. How did your communication or
01:43:24
management style change over the years?
01:43:26
I I read a story from the um the
01:43:28
apartment 404 and apparently you guys
01:43:30
had some crazy shouting matches in the
01:43:32
early days.
01:43:32
>> Yeah.
01:43:33
>> Did do you did you mellow out over the
01:43:35
years or you stop shouting at people?
01:43:36
>> Oh no no. More extreme now. I love like
01:43:39
like you know arguments are so much fun
01:43:42
you know cuz it's it's basically real
01:43:43
time chess and uh but that's why I think
01:43:46
you got to be generous when you get it
01:43:47
wrong you know um what's the what's the
01:43:50
thing um uh uh um strong opinions likely
01:43:54
held you know cuz it's faster just to
01:43:56
throw an opinion out there and have
01:43:57
someone shoot it down okay cool yep
01:44:00
you're all right move on got it
01:44:02
>> y just moving back to the question
01:44:04
before I didn't get a proper answer out
01:44:05
of you I don't think but yeah What three
01:44:07
words like would you like your kids to
01:44:09
say about you? Like um like the man I've
01:44:13
got to know the last um 100 or so
01:44:14
minutes. I'd say um like energetic,
01:44:18
funny, enthusiastic,
01:44:21
but you your kids know a different side
01:44:22
of you. What would they say?
01:44:24
>> Um well, I like to say they'd say those
01:44:25
things. I don't know. I think um I think
01:44:28
I'd add to that kind of um a kind of
01:44:31
caring. Like I care about people and
01:44:33
want to make sure people do really well.
01:44:35
So yeah. And uh you know if you think
01:44:37
I'm funny, that's a good score.
01:44:39
>> Yeah. Do do you like the person that's
01:44:40
looking back at you when you see
01:44:42
yourself in the mirror in the morning?
01:44:43
Yeah.
01:44:43
>> Yeah.
01:44:44
>> You proud of yourself?
01:44:45
>> Oh yeah. No, I'm stoked.
01:44:46
>> Yeah.
01:44:47
>> And but I think would dad be proud of
01:44:48
me? Would mom be proud of me?
01:44:50
>> Yeah, I think they would be.
01:44:51
>> Well, they got to see a lot of what you
01:44:53
did. Yeah.
01:44:54
>> Were they proud of you?
01:44:54
>> Oh, 100%.
01:44:56
>> Yeah, agree.
01:44:57
>> Yeah.
01:44:57
>> Um and when people talk about your
01:45:00
legacy one day, what do you hope they
01:45:01
say?
01:45:02
>> Was it something you think about at all?
01:45:04
legacy not really.
01:45:05
>> Yeah, I mean I'll give give all my money
01:45:07
away at the end. So I want to do
01:45:08
something meaningful. I don't like doing
01:45:09
a whole lot of little things. Want to do
01:45:10
a few meaningful things. So um yeah, I
01:45:13
think about that. So at the moment um uh
01:45:16
you know doing a lot of um philanthropy
01:45:19
especially around here um but this
01:45:21
venture philanthropy is where I spend a
01:45:23
lot of time and then um I mean there's
01:45:25
no point taking it with you and you know
01:45:27
the kids will have enough. So um you
01:45:29
know I'll just give it all away at the
01:45:30
end.
01:45:32
I think this is a great place to end it.
01:45:34
I've just got a couple of very quickfire
01:45:36
questions to end with. Um, my podcast
01:45:38
sponsors, the Generate Kiwi Saver
01:45:39
scheme, they're all about putting
01:45:40
performance first. So, just a couple of
01:45:43
performance-based questions for you.
01:45:44
First of all, what does the term top
01:45:46
performance mean to you?
01:45:49
>> Uh, well, um, I think from accounting
01:45:51
software, you really love the numbers.
01:45:53
You set really clear goals. So, one of
01:45:55
my, um, big things I really like at the
01:45:57
moment is, uh, revenue per employee.
01:45:59
I've always liked that one cuz it's a
01:46:01
measure of efficiency for a business. It
01:46:03
means that you're driving productivity
01:46:05
for people and with things like AI
01:46:07
happening at the moment, if you're um
01:46:10
you know driving topline product,
01:46:12
topline productivity, you'll see it in
01:46:14
revenue per employee, you can't hide
01:46:15
from that number.
01:46:17
>> Who is um someone that helps you perform
01:46:19
at your best and how do they do it?
01:46:22
>> Um I think I've got a really good group
01:46:24
of people around me. my partner's super
01:46:26
smart and we've really united in what
01:46:29
we're doing with government and for New
01:46:30
Zealand. So, you know, um you know,
01:46:33
being able to work with somebody that
01:46:35
you that that's your partner is really
01:46:37
good. So, we you know, we do most of our
01:46:39
things together. That's that's
01:46:40
incredibly interesting to to me and I
01:46:42
hadn't really had that before. So, um
01:46:45
you know, so we're always um you know,
01:46:48
working out where we're going and that's
01:46:49
just been a that's just a huge amount of
01:46:51
fun. Um, and you know, my close friends
01:46:53
keep um keep me pretty honest.
01:46:56
>> You've said the word fun so many times.
01:46:58
>> Yeah.
01:46:59
>> It's really cool.
01:47:00
>> Yeah. I mean, work is fun. It's sport.
01:47:02
>> And and and again, there's always
01:47:04
laughter like, you know, and at every
01:47:06
meeting if it's not a joke, then
01:47:08
>> Yeah.
01:47:10
>> What's uh something you've learned from
01:47:12
a mentor, coach, or teammate that stuck
01:47:14
with you?
01:47:15
>> Um, taking time. Like things don't
01:47:18
happen quickly. And uh uh I think when
01:47:21
you're a vision person driving forward,
01:47:22
I remember this guy Pete Yarl back in
01:47:24
our aftermale days said, "Look, you
01:47:27
know, sometimes when you're driving the
01:47:28
train, you got to go back and connect
01:47:29
the carriages." So making you always are
01:47:32
repeating the vision, repeating the
01:47:33
vision. Actually, um one of the most
01:47:35
inspirational people I've followed is um
01:47:37
Glee Kuanu, the prime minister or
01:47:40
benevolent dictator of Singapore. And
01:47:42
you can actually go back through the you
01:47:44
know 60s and that and see all of his
01:47:46
videos. he keep he had a really clear
01:47:48
vision and kept communicating that
01:47:50
vision to his people. Um and I think
01:47:53
that's you know when I look at um uh you
01:47:56
know true leaders that have lasted for
01:47:58
decades and where they've taken
01:48:00
Singapore and you know there's a bit of
01:48:01
dark side to some of it but essentially
01:48:03
that's to me is a model of you know
01:48:06
thinking really long-term decades of
01:48:08
strategy and uh but communicating to all
01:48:11
the people and you know look where
01:48:12
Singapore is today. M. Now, how do you
01:48:14
make sure you're helping others perform
01:48:16
at their best?
01:48:17
>> Um, well, you can always you can always
01:48:20
see that um cuz you can see it in the
01:48:22
numbers and what they're doing and just
01:48:24
you know, finishing projects and um you
01:48:26
know, we always had in in Zero the
01:48:28
servant leadership model. How can I help
01:48:30
you? How can I help you? It's not what
01:48:31
you're doing for me, how can I help you
01:48:32
be successful? And once you get that
01:48:34
servant leader um you know, flip around,
01:48:37
it's just so logical.
01:48:40
>> Thank you so much.
01:48:41
>> Thanks, Don. Rodri, this has been this
01:48:43
has been amazing. It's a beautiful sunny
01:48:45
Sunday morning and we're we're sitting
01:48:46
in here talking in front of these
01:48:47
microphones. Um I know there's a hundred
01:48:50
places you'd rather be than here right
01:48:52
now. So I can't thank you enough for
01:48:53
doing this.
01:48:54
>> No, this is fun. Thanks for coming down.
01:48:56
>> Yeah, mate. I really appreciate it. And
01:48:58
um yeah, on behalf of Queenstown um
01:49:00
thank you for everything you're doing in
01:49:01
the area and um on behalf of the
01:49:03
country, thanks so much for being a
01:49:04
great New Zealander. This has been
01:49:06
awesome.
01:49:09
Heat. Heat. N.