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[Music]
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welcome oh thank you very much great
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setup here it's good to be here hey
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thank you very much this is probably um
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this is just in a spare room in my
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apartment but um I was thinking it's
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probably flashier than the radio New
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Zealand it was well flash
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we don't have ceiling fans for a start
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let alone mics that look like this yeah
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um now a lot of people will be like I've
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never heard of Guyana East spinner
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before there's a lot of people have to
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be listening that'll be like fizzing to
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get to see another side of you I'd
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imagine
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um but for anyone that doesn't know guy
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and he's been a like a journalism Legend
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in New Zealand worked for Sunday start
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times for a number of years q a
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breakfast 60 Minutes Radio New Zealand
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host of morning report for a number of
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years and a reputation has a tough
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interviewer oh there's a bit of that and
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I'm on the receiving end today though
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how do you I wanted to ask how do you
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how do you find that because I'm um you
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and I are very similar in in the
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respects of our age
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um our love of running and we both have
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a radio background a lot of very very
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different arms of radio I'm from music
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radio where it was basically a career
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built on fart jokes and you're from a
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more serious side where you were holding
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politicians to task but how do you I I
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hate being on the receiving end I feel
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incredibly uncomfortable and uh exposed
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and vulnerable yeah I um I don't mind
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being being interviewed
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um and you know we're talking about some
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of my favorite subjects today running
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and myself
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so you know I'm feeling pretty good mate
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no no no but I suppose like what I mean
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is um
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um like I suppose the the side of radio
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I came from
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um in order to make a connection with
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the audience it was important that you
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gave more of yourself away so they felt
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like they know you whereas yours is
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almost completely different to the point
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where you put a tweet out if you a tweet
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or a Facebook status update a few years
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ago talking about your type 1 diabetes
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diagnosis and it was it was very very um
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stoic it was sort of like I don't want
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to make a big deal about this and I just
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want to move on but I'm away because
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I've got diabetes it was almost felt
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like that was overshearing for you yeah
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that's an interesting thing I've
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forgotten about um putting that out back
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in the day it's been about four years
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since I was diagnosed with type 1
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diabetes
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um yeah I guess um at rnz there is a a
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tendency to be a bit more sort of
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austere about those things I used to
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sort of joke that you weren't allowed to
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give your opinion about whether you're a
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Vegemite or a Marmite fan and you can go
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over the top with the sort of
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objectivity stuff and I think that
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that's um that's loosening away I think
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in in the in the modern area there is
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just more and more that you you have to
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share people it's speak to and should
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get a sense of who you are and where
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you're coming from I think this idea
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that you are somehow above everything is
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you know is is old-fashioned and just
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wrong so yeah no I'm I'm I'm happy to
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talk about most most elements of my life
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yeah I I almost elements interesting
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yeah well any of them really I'll throw
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that throw that Gauntlet down I'm I'm
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pretty much happy to talk about
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everything although I did qualify that
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again didn't I I must have been talking
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to those politicians too long I always
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leaving myself a bit of a door open a
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little Outlaws so um the podcast is
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called Runners only with dom Harvey and
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um I know that you've got a relationship
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with running and it's been there you're
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a non-drinker now you gave up drinking a
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few years ago you've got a book about
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that called the drinking game which
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we'll get into
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um but running's always been a part of
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even when you were drinking was always
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part of your life oh yeah yeah that's
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right where did it start about 03 2003 I
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um in the early 30s yeah I've broken up
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from a long-term relationship I had been
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with this girl for like 12 years and my
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mother had just recently died and so I
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was living a line I had a lot of time on
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my hands Karen Dan who you might know
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from Morning Report on xtv NZ said oh
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why don't you run around the Bays um in
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in Wellington's about seven K's and I
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thought I could give this a shot and
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really enjoyed it and then I got into
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running half marathons and then four
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marathons Rotorua 05 I think was my
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first marathon and I did 19 full
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competitive marathons including some
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Ultras and stuff uh over the years and
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I'm still running half marathons today
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it's it's half the distance but um I I
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run five times a week just 10ks I shot
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you know so I run most days and um yeah
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got the Waterfront marathon coming up in
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April so oh amazing is it the half
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marathon yeah yeah right all flat and
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fast apparently are you are you like um
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goal fixated when it comes to times and
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things or not I've sort of reset the
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clock a bit after getting type 1
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diabetes because it's a bit of a bit of
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a chemistry experiment every day with
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with this condition and running is both
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a really good means to help control it
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but also uh presents its own challenges
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so I'm sort of allowing myself a
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personal best post-diabetes time because
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I've reset the clock on what was what
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were your um I don't really like getting
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into times with people on this because I
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find it's intense
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and I never forget them I I manage 129
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twice before
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um type one I did the Auckland half last
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year yeah it was last year wasn't it
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like October was it
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um in 145 which I was pretty happy with
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at uh 51. five minute k-pace yeah it's
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all right it's you know it's uh not
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gonna challenge the Olympic sports
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that's right um so the uh so the type 1
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diabetes what does that mean exactly
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yeah so we're insulin dependent
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diabetics so you got two types of
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diabetes type two is the most common one
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and that's really it's really a disease
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of obesity right it's and we've got an
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epidemic of it New Zealand type one is
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an autoimmune disease and you wake up
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one day and you realize that your
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pancreas isn't producing any insulin so
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we need to inject insulin to stay alive
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we need to do that about five times a
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day and we need to keep our blood sugars
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within a certain sort of range otherwise
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you're going to get complications so
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look it's completely manageable in that
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you can do every other aspect of your
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life you're not allowed to fly
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commercially you're not allowed to dive
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you're not allowed to join the military
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none of which I want to do none of which
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I'll be any good at so it hasn't really
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interfered too much with my life if I
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still run I still enjoy enjoy my life
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and as I say if you manage it well
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um you can live a good life but it is a
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bit of a challenge yeah five times a day
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that's that's intense yeah yeah it is I
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suppose it's like you're in a you I mean
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you're a grown man when you got it so
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you're more like emotionally equipped to
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deal with it I guess I think that's a
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very good point I mean most commonly
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they used to call it juvenile onset
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diabetes and most common age of onset's
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about seven years old it is mainly um
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comes on and childhood for most people
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um and should that be hard you know
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because you want to eat melee pus and
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eat jelly beans and stuff and sugar high
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sugar diets pretty much out so I'm
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pretty much a keto diet guy now pretty
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much sugar-free
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um along with alcohol-free so there's a
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few things I've given up in recent years
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well actually I sent you a text just
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earlier saying do you want a coffee on
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arrival and um use your exact wording
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was something like um a long black is my
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poison which is a interesting phrasing
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because um you know poison alcohol is a
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poison and it's the same well yeah
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that's right and that's what you used to
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say it's not a what's your poison and um
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yeah it is a poison
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um but um yeah we've learned to process
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it over the years and I did get into
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some of that in in the book yeah so so
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your
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um decision to give up alcohol was there
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anything to do with like the sugar
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quantity and wine and the diabetes no I
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wasn't I kept drinking for about a year
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pretty pretty hard out after I had uh
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diagnosed with type 1 and um so it
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there's a weird connection though in
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that quite early when I got the type 1
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diagnosis I decided to go down the
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sugar-free uh path which is effectively
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people know it as a keto diet but it
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means avoiding all sorts of breads
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um rice most processed foods right so I
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cut out sugar completely so when about a
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year later I wake up with another
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hangover on a Sunday morning and said to
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myself this is it I'm stopping drinking
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right now
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I felt I knew that I had the power to do
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that because I'd given up sugar which is
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no easy feat it's not just talking about
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sugar as we associate it and we're
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talking about all carbohydrates so it's
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quite doable but quite a big change and
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so knowing that I had the discipline to
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do that and to make a decision decision
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and stick to it I think helped me and I
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just did decide that Sunday morning to
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stop drinking and didn't go to any you
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know AAA or anything like that not that
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I'm um dissing those those things no I
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mean that's that's all cool and people
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have heaps of different types of issues
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with alcohol you know it's pretty rich
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tapestry in terms of um what issues
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people face but I did know in my head
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that I had the power and discipline to
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stop doing that and I think the
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adjustments to diet after diabetes were
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yeah it gave me the feeling that I had
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the strength to do it
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so what was um what was the moment like
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you said you wake up on a Sunday morning
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with a hangover and just decided that
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that was um that was enough
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um so there was there was no Rock Bottom
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moment there was no incident was it
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boredom no it was more the fact that I
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never had the off switch with alcohol
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and I never did from the age of about 14
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or 15.
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um and I like a lot of kiwi guys you
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know so I was born in 1970 so the mid
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80s we started drinking at 14 15 and we
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get drunk every weekend and I did that
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till my late 40s you know and every
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every weekend some people sort of grow
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out of it after University I
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um I'd always get drunk in the weekend
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that's what you did unless I had a
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marathon the next day they were the and
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you know so two times a year I wouldn't
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get drunk on a weekend you know and yeah
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the the the the price of the wine
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um went up over the years you know and
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you thought you were more sophisticated
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possibly but um the patterns that had
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been set and trained in those mid
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teenage years didn't change and and and
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when I say I woke up with a hangover
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probably a little more than that I woke
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up again having forgotten what happened
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the night before and man I did that so
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many times you know so I I never did
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anything crazy like oh you know I
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crashed a car or you know had that sort
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of movie style Rock Bottom moment I just
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had
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probably hundreds of times in my
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drinking career where I couldn't tell
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you what happened after nine o'clock at
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night and and it was and that Sunday
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morning was the same it was a dinner
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party a few people over
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um my wife at the time said that I
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didn't hadn't done anything too silly or
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said anything too bad but I was just
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like again I I had blackouts which
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sounds scary but a lot of people have
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them a lot of drinkers you talk to go oh
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no I don't have blackouts but they they
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don't remember what they told you the
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night before so they they have got parts
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of the parts of it missing and I just
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think I just thought man I I I I I've
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given up
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um
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excuses for myself and strategies to to
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mitigate it I went to all these oh look
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I'll just try drinking lower alcohol
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beer till nine o'clock and then I'll go
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on the beers or I'll cut out red wine
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because that's none of these strategies
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worked for 35 years and so I just had
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had to realize that I'm someone who
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alcohol doesn't suit me you know and I
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had
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[Music]
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um and I had some great times with and
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this is the thing in the book this is
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not a preachy book about not about don't
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drink alcohol and the evils of alcohol
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that's why it's hard because it's so
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great too right I had some amazing
00:11:02
moments with alcohol it's so entrenched
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and ingrained in just about everything
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we do this is why I wanted to have a
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look at it because it's so woven into
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the fabric of Our Lives of course it's
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not if it was just evil you know if it
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had the reputation of pee it'd be very
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different be black and white but it's
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not it doesn't have that stigma it
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doesn't and that's why I thought and
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people do think oh look I can keep going
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all my mates do it oh I walk outside and
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I see the ad for it oh it's time it's
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wine o'clock now do you want to catch up
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for a beer hey nice to meet you mate um
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it's all in that culture so you kind of
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feel [ __ ] I'm an outlier I'm I'm weird
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if I don't drink and you do get made to
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feel like that when you don't drink and
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this is why I wanted to have a look at
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it not because it's evil in fact almost
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the opposite because it's so entrenched
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in our lives that I thought it's really
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worth put you you almost do need to pull
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back and that's what you do when you
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don't drink you realize [ __ ] this is
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this is really full of yeah this is a
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big part of our Lives yeah actually it's
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it's a really good book so you
00:12:01
intertwine some of your personal stories
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and experiences along with um just
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laying out the facts and uh
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um the liquor industry it really does
00:12:08
get an alarming free pass doesn't it oh
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it amazingly does you know I mean it's
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the only industry that doesn't have to
00:12:13
tell you what's in the in their product
00:12:15
apart from apart from the alcohol like
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there's no calorie warnings there's no
00:12:18
well there are warnings coming in for
00:12:21
for drinking while pregnant there's no
00:12:22
cancer warning imagine the tobacco
00:12:24
companies getting away with that I mean
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the evidence that's emerging now is that
00:12:27
there is pretty strong links with
00:12:28
different types of cancer not for not
00:12:30
for small amounts of alcohol but there
00:12:32
is a real link there and so the
00:12:34
regulation on the Alcohol industry is
00:12:36
they must be laughing all the way to the
00:12:37
back your journey sounds um sounds very
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very similar to mine so I'm a few years
00:12:43
um younger than you um I'm still
00:12:45
drinking but I feel like I'm almost at
00:12:47
that Crossroads in life where I'm you
00:12:49
know I've been reading a lot about it
00:12:51
listening to some Dr Andrew huberman and
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reading your book and some other
00:12:54
literature and I'm almost ready to
00:12:56
why don't I break up with it but I'm
00:12:58
still experimenting with that thing that
00:13:00
you talked about before that doesn't
00:13:01
work like not drinking Monday to
00:13:03
Thursday or not drinking when I'm home
00:13:05
alone just when I'm with other people
00:13:07
um but and also like you I'm a very very
00:13:09
good Drinker like I don't turn obnoxious
00:13:11
I don't make it make an absolute ass of
00:13:13
myself I'm not violent so can I ask you
00:13:16
a question yeah absolutely so why would
00:13:18
you stop drinking then
00:13:19
what worries you about I'm worried about
00:13:21
the health effects yeah okay yeah yeah
00:13:23
like I can easily get through like a
00:13:25
bottle of wine like no trouble I'd never
00:13:27
drive after it I'm still
00:13:29
um I still yeah I I would yeah I just
00:13:31
never drive or do anything foolish like
00:13:33
that but I don't feel like drunk after
00:13:34
it do you know what I mean I do yeah
00:13:36
because you build up the tolerance over
00:13:37
the years
00:13:38
um you know I was going to say like if
00:13:39
you enjoy if you enjoy it and you are
00:13:42
able to moderate it I'd still be
00:13:45
drinking if I could do that I would be
00:13:48
um and I don't certainly make any
00:13:50
judgments about people who do continue
00:13:52
to do so I will say I I wanted to know
00:13:54
people to know though that you can live
00:13:56
a good life without alcohol because it
00:13:58
seems such a major thing to do in in
00:14:00
this country
00:14:02
um but I think we are changing to some
00:14:05
to some degree but I don't know like to
00:14:07
we are similar ages I mean if you go
00:14:09
back to your high school sort of years I
00:14:11
mean
00:14:13
pretty weird for someone not to drink
00:14:14
hey oh completely weird and and could
00:14:16
you even have made it through I I don't
00:14:19
think so I think it's easy actually I
00:14:20
had David Seymour on the podcast a
00:14:21
couple of weeks ago and he had a couple
00:14:22
of years of um sobriety just before the
00:14:24
recent election and so this is like four
00:14:27
or five years ago whatever and he said
00:14:28
he'd go to a bar and ask for a
00:14:30
non-alcoholic drink and they said the
00:14:32
bartender would look at you like he's
00:14:33
got a penis like growing out of his ear
00:14:35
the same thing happens to me at times
00:14:37
you know the way it's a bit better now
00:14:39
but sometimes you can go into a place
00:14:41
and uh roll their eyes when you ask for
00:14:43
a diet cake
00:14:44
um which is really really weird or I
00:14:46
have friends who say yeah I've had that
00:14:48
and and I'm just like well you're
00:14:50
wasting your time why are you in a bar
00:14:51
see I love going to bars still I love
00:14:53
pubs I've worked in pubs I love pubs and
00:14:56
and and some people say oh do you still
00:14:58
go out what do you mean you know what am
00:15:00
I supposed to stay at home now that I
00:15:01
don't drink alcohol you wouldn't stay
00:15:02
out as late would you I go out to gigs I
00:15:04
love it I love going to music and going
00:15:06
out to gigs yeah yeah you don't you
00:15:08
don't do the 4 a.m nights no you don't
00:15:10
but but easily nothing good happens
00:15:12
after no no that's the thing um and so
00:15:16
yeah I mean I I'm really enjoying going
00:15:18
out and and I love socializing
00:15:21
um and the idea that you you have to
00:15:22
have alcohol to do that just isn't true
00:15:24
um and and that's a big part of where
00:15:26
the advertising and the culture of it
00:15:28
comes into it
00:15:29
um which is so ingrained and and I get
00:15:31
into that stuff too yeah it's it's hard
00:15:33
for um I think men are actually just
00:15:35
people our age because we were swimming
00:15:37
in the same sort of waters in the 1990s
00:15:39
and that's when it was a badge of honor
00:15:41
if someone could hold their purse
00:15:42
absolutely and it's amazing the free the
00:15:45
free pass and what what people would
00:15:47
would just write off to alcohol hey I
00:15:49
mean I I I never talk about other
00:15:51
people's drinking because I think that's
00:15:53
their story but Jesus you should have
00:15:55
seen some of the some of the nights at
00:15:56
Parliament some of those parties some of
00:15:58
the peoples that you would know well the
00:15:59
the states that they ended up in and the
00:16:01
things that people said I mean just
00:16:03
unbelievable you get away with it
00:16:05
because it's just oh well you know it's
00:16:07
it's you know it happens on tour stays
00:16:09
on to us sort of stuff I mean it's quite
00:16:11
amazing you say you never talk about any
00:16:13
one of those parliamentary circles but
00:16:14
you're working the same time as Petra
00:16:16
Gower I guess who's um now alcohol free
00:16:18
surely you can share stories about him
00:16:20
yeah um I mean being petty we're in the
00:16:23
gallery together I've probably got to
00:16:24
know Patty a bit better over the over
00:16:26
the years after the gallery and it was
00:16:27
more me and Duncan Garner who was his
00:16:29
boss at the time and that we we do I do
00:16:31
tell a story about drinking with John
00:16:33
Key Duncan and I are going out for a
00:16:35
night with John Key just before he
00:16:37
became prime minister and having a big
00:16:39
night with him and and I'll get into
00:16:41
that in the book because a lot of the
00:16:43
socializing a lot of the content
00:16:44
building a lot of the relationships were
00:16:46
built around alcohol we we had 3.2 which
00:16:49
was the third floor of the Beehive that
00:16:50
was the the pub
00:16:52
um and yeah you'd go in there it'd be
00:16:55
you know Winston to be at the bar you
00:16:57
know people would be smoking cigars and
00:16:59
drinking lots of alcohol and those were
00:17:02
how relationships were formed that's how
00:17:03
how business was done and it would have
00:17:05
been we were talking just before about
00:17:07
could you have made it through high
00:17:09
school and I don't reckon you could have
00:17:10
been a popular kid
00:17:12
um not in my day no way you know
00:17:14
basically there were two excuses for not
00:17:15
drinking one was being pregnant
00:17:17
um I can't remember what the other one
00:17:18
was but but
00:17:19
um you know it's certainly none of them
00:17:22
applied to me
00:17:23
um and it would have been seriously held
00:17:25
back um in terms of relationship
00:17:26
building when I was at Parliament
00:17:28
without the drinking so yeah you've had
00:17:30
nights on the bus with Winston Winston's
00:17:32
notorious right loves it loves it what
00:17:34
does he drink is his Scotch whiskey yeah
00:17:37
everything what yeah he doesn't drink
00:17:39
beer not a beer man no he doesn't drink
00:17:41
beer wine and whiskey yeah wine and
00:17:44
whiskey does he still smoke uh he's been
00:17:47
photographed with the odd diary every
00:17:48
now and again
00:17:49
um the last campaign eh
00:17:52
um so but he's one of those guys who
00:17:55
just seems to keep rolling I don't know
00:17:56
I think I think your 50s is sort of like
00:17:58
sniper Ali-A where stuff can go wrong if
00:18:01
you get out the other side of that and
00:18:02
he'd be 75 now I mean I I wouldn't be
00:18:05
surprised to see him and triple figures
00:18:08
he'll run a few more times here I don't
00:18:11
think you'll get him to I don't think
00:18:12
you'll get him to read my book we've had
00:18:15
our moments me and Winston and I don't
00:18:17
think you'll get them to um to give up
00:18:19
drinking but it seems like everyone's
00:18:21
had their everyone that works and that
00:18:23
sort of environment has had their
00:18:24
moments with Winston Peters so there's
00:18:26
no love loss between you oh look you
00:18:28
know it's one of those
00:18:29
um I think they call it symbiosis and
00:18:31
biology don't they it's one of those
00:18:32
relationships for him and the media he
00:18:34
pretends he hates the media but loves it
00:18:36
and couldn't live without it and the
00:18:38
media pretends they hate Winston and
00:18:40
couldn't live without him right but he's
00:18:41
quite a likable guy generally oh yeah I
00:18:43
mean his Smiles pretty pretty
00:18:45
unparalleled doesn't it like he can give
00:18:46
you a full blast and then then give you
00:18:49
that a little wink at the end yeah
00:18:50
that's right and uh he's a master
00:18:52
politician let's let's face it so you
00:18:54
you did morning radio for five years
00:18:56
yeah so you how did you how did you
00:18:59
manage that and you're drinking were you
00:19:01
were you not drinking the night before
00:19:02
almost all the time yes I wasn't
00:19:04
drinking the night before I call myself
00:19:06
in the book of disciplined alcoholic and
00:19:08
it's quite funny because you kind of can
00:19:09
do that and you were talking a bit about
00:19:10
your drinking pens even in my biggest
00:19:13
drinking days in the gallery Sunday
00:19:15
Monday Tuesday night would be
00:19:17
alcohol-free nights Wednesday morning uh
00:19:21
Wednesday not Wednesday morning never in
00:19:23
the morning uh Wednesday after work
00:19:25
you'd be into it you know it'd be a six
00:19:27
pints half a bottle of wine sort of
00:19:29
night and then it would escalate there
00:19:30
Thursday Friday Saturday and then you
00:19:32
start the thing again so yeah it's
00:19:35
interesting the signals
00:19:36
um and mindset around this because
00:19:38
there's a perception that oh look I'm
00:19:41
not addicted to alcohol I just went
00:19:42
three days without it well I I went
00:19:44
three days every week just about every
00:19:47
week of my drinking career without
00:19:49
without it but to do a week without it
00:19:51
or a Friday night and Saturday night and
00:19:54
I would never do that so but yeah I mean
00:19:57
with with morning radio I yeah almost
00:19:59
always we're off the grill but that
00:20:00
would just mean that on the weekends
00:20:02
we're we're bigger and bigger
00:20:04
yeah so you yeah so you did a show
00:20:06
called um Morning Report on um Radio New
00:20:09
Zealand which is uh it's not the
00:20:11
government
00:20:12
so you play no way it's the government
00:20:13
station right yeah it's publicly it's
00:20:15
publicly I I I do bristle a little bit
00:20:17
the government station but um I know
00:20:19
what you mean yeah but you're right in
00:20:21
the sense that it's yeah it's owned by
00:20:22
The public's own by by you and I and and
00:20:24
we and we paid the Texas side but yeah
00:20:26
but it's uh um yes commercial free you
00:20:29
know fairly sort of Fairly sort of
00:20:31
serious
00:20:32
um sort of show and um yeah when there's
00:20:34
not a lot of fart jokes on it
00:20:37
although some of the responses from
00:20:38
politicians sound a little similar yeah
00:20:40
right so you replaced a guy called Jeff
00:20:42
Robinson had been doing that role for 39
00:20:44
years yeah that's right so what year was
00:20:46
that that you started 2014. okay so
00:20:48
social media was the thing it wasn't
00:20:49
what it is now but it was still a thing
00:20:51
how was that you must have been um oh
00:20:53
you get smashed
00:20:54
on Twitter yeah yeah every time you
00:20:57
every time you attack someone especially
00:20:58
from the left because I'm pretty equal
00:21:00
opportunities Basher you know I'd bash
00:21:03
the right best left you know I'm pretty
00:21:05
you know I don't have any any qualms
00:21:07
either way but um did find that if you
00:21:09
got stuck into a politician from the
00:21:11
left side of the train tracks and
00:21:12
Twitter would come down on you like a
00:21:14
like a ton of bricks uh because it's it
00:21:16
is pretty slanted in that sense
00:21:18
um it was pretty much sworn off Twitter
00:21:20
nowadays I don't know about you but the
00:21:21
social very negative yeah social media
00:21:23
says so negative yeah yeah Instagram's a
00:21:25
bit more positive but it's um it's
00:21:28
mainly sort of women telling other women
00:21:30
how beautiful they are so it doesn't
00:21:31
really help a lot of appeal many of whom
00:21:35
are but um yeah I've sort of sworn off
00:21:39
the um sworn off the social media so was
00:21:41
that hard for you like replacing the sky
00:21:43
that was doing the job for 39 years well
00:21:46
we were you
00:21:49
um you know able to sort of see it for
00:21:50
what it is and laugh it off yeah I mean
00:21:52
I think when in there trying to shake
00:21:54
things up a bit
00:21:55
um and I think we did do that
00:21:57
um yeah he had a um a massive Legacy and
00:22:00
following so they were big shoes to fill
00:22:02
in that respect but everyone takes their
00:22:04
own thing into a new job
00:22:06
um and you know the media landscape was
00:22:09
changing quickly then it's changing
00:22:10
quickly now but um you know I know and
00:22:12
said needs needs to move and and has has
00:22:14
moved
00:22:16
um but um yeah that was quite strange
00:22:19
coming in after someone had been there
00:22:21
so long yeah absolutely so also the um
00:22:24
that merger thing with iron seven tvnz
00:22:25
is that off the table that's gone now
00:22:27
yeah that's gone what were your thoughts
00:22:29
I was quite Keen to get up my admits on
00:22:31
their kit you know like I'm on my doco
00:22:33
maker too I've made uh what what brings
00:22:35
us here today really is a documentary
00:22:37
called proof that I made a couple of
00:22:39
years ago which was about the the
00:22:42
drinking story in the liquor industry
00:22:44
and then after that screen on tvnz in
00:22:46
November 2021 Ellen and Unwin rang up
00:22:49
and said hey would you do a book on this
00:22:50
and and so here we are now
00:22:53
um so I've made a couple of
00:22:55
documentaries that have screen on tvnz
00:22:56
but we've made them on very limited
00:22:58
resources and Ireland so I was I was
00:23:00
pretty Keen to to migrate across the
00:23:02
road and into uh and and more pleasant
00:23:06
surroundings and get my mitts on there
00:23:08
um on their kit so that's a bit
00:23:09
disappointing in terms of um you know
00:23:11
the opportunities it it presents but um
00:23:14
yeah it's off the table for now yeah so
00:23:16
you you would have got the chance to
00:23:17
make documentaries with cameras rather
00:23:19
than just shooting on your phone that's
00:23:20
right yeah that's to throw out the old
00:23:21
iPhone 6 hey by the way that's a great
00:23:24
documentary and it's still available on
00:23:25
YouTube if anyone wants to watch it
00:23:28
um so and you also you sort of
00:23:29
introduced our Maori to Radio New
00:23:31
Zealand well that's probably it's it's
00:23:33
funny you say that because um I I kind
00:23:35
of um and you touched on it before about
00:23:37
how yeah I kind of considered myself
00:23:40
this heavy-hitting political interviewer
00:23:42
and stuff and I thought when I went in
00:23:43
to do morning I thought that that's what
00:23:45
I'd be remembered for and I'm gonna give
00:23:46
this death for five years and then see
00:23:47
how we go and the only thing that people
00:23:49
not the only thing but one of the major
00:23:52
thing that people talk to me about is
00:23:54
Maori on on the radio and it had it had
00:23:57
a big impact it's kind of weird looking
00:23:58
back on it now because it was 2017 and
00:24:01
um I married a Maori woman we've got our
00:24:04
daughters Martin she's at a full Rumaki
00:24:06
school so she speaks Maori at school and
00:24:09
I've decided wanted to give her her
00:24:10
language so I better learn it and then
00:24:12
take it from there and as I was learning
00:24:13
I thought well I'll fling this out on
00:24:15
the radio too you know it's an official
00:24:17
language of New Zealand it's a beautiful
00:24:18
language I'm learning it let's flick it
00:24:20
around and it was all kind of there
00:24:23
wasn't a program like people think oh as
00:24:25
rnz social engineering or something it
00:24:27
wasn't that at all it's just me flinging
00:24:29
around others were doing it I took it a
00:24:31
bit further and thought Oh this is cool
00:24:33
I'm going to run with this
00:24:35
um so you're just doing like a couple of
00:24:37
extra words here and there which is um
00:24:38
which just which is everywhere initially
00:24:40
yeah and then we went um as I learned
00:24:43
more and more by the time I'd finished
00:24:45
we did you know full interviews in Maori
00:24:47
but we'd translate the same time so
00:24:49
you'd flung a line out and then you'd
00:24:50
translate it um and use both the
00:24:52
languages so yeah as I got beta at it
00:24:55
and I'm still no expert by any means
00:24:57
some intermediate sort of speaker but um
00:25:00
as I got better I'd try and share what I
00:25:02
was what I was learning but listening
00:25:04
now yeah it's um it's everywhere which
00:25:07
is really cool yeah it's a six o'clock
00:25:08
news at the beginning of the sports well
00:25:10
at home yeah I suppose you you um not
00:25:13
that you're going to give yourself a pat
00:25:14
on the back but um you deserve some of
00:25:16
the credit for that I guess being a
00:25:18
Trailblazer in a way we did we were
00:25:19
early Runners on it I think this had to
00:25:21
deny that yeah so no one in management
00:25:23
tried to stop you you just said there
00:25:26
was a few um I think there was a few uh
00:25:29
knee wobbling moments when because you
00:25:32
got you got a lot of feedback piling and
00:25:34
at one point Don Brash got really upset
00:25:36
about it as he does I respect on on the
00:25:39
economy I don't respect his views a lot
00:25:41
on Maori issues but you know that's his
00:25:44
thing
00:25:45
um and and he's entitled to his opinion
00:25:46
I'm a big believer in in free speech he
00:25:49
he smashed into me
00:25:51
um and people were starting to put
00:25:52
police releases out and there were lots
00:25:54
of op-eds and stuff people there was
00:25:56
quite a reaction you know and it wasn't
00:25:57
overwhelmingly positive it's only you
00:25:59
know only 2017 but it's not long ago but
00:26:02
there was a lot of
00:26:03
um
00:26:04
a lot of negative reaction too and I
00:26:06
think there were some um who were
00:26:09
starting to waver a little bit but they
00:26:11
never said they never said look stop
00:26:12
doing it or anything like that and then
00:26:14
after a while
00:26:16
um they started to to encourage it and
00:26:18
nowadays we've got you know training
00:26:20
there's training sessions there's all
00:26:22
that sort of stuff all behind it now and
00:26:24
there's a bit more of an organized
00:26:25
program whereas I was just sort of kind
00:26:26
of flinging it around quite a lot it's
00:26:28
not a bad Legacy though is it
00:26:30
no it's not and I'm actually quite proud
00:26:32
of it you know I am yeah that's cool
00:26:35
um you mentioned before something about
00:26:36
your mum you lost your mum at a
00:26:38
relatively early age I guess like 30-ish
00:26:40
yeah that's right early 30s um she died
00:26:42
at 68
00:26:44
um of cancer effectively she had a bad
00:26:46
cancer and then she had had heart issues
00:26:49
as well and so she died in 2001 so yeah
00:26:52
more than 30 years ago now well how was
00:26:55
that how was that at that age and stage
00:26:57
of Life yeah pretty still quite still
00:26:58
quite even though you're a man it's
00:26:59
still quite a young age to lose your
00:27:01
mother it's a good point and I think
00:27:02
that's right and um that's where the
00:27:04
running started in man yeah and I'd be
00:27:07
running I remember you know you and it's
00:27:09
a funny thing with running I don't know
00:27:10
whether you get this I mean but like you
00:27:13
know sometimes I'd run you know 40ks
00:27:15
plus and I'd be CR I'd just start crying
00:27:18
after in in the 30s mid-30s case and
00:27:21
it's just like you just start crying and
00:27:23
and it's like where did it come from it
00:27:25
must be something chemical in your brain
00:27:27
which starts to release stuff like that
00:27:28
and it's not because you thinking of
00:27:31
anything in particular it's just like
00:27:33
here it was just um break your walls
00:27:35
down yeah and um it's great thinking
00:27:37
time and and I got quite seen like about
00:27:39
running in that still wire run a run for
00:27:42
um I ran for my head rather than my hat
00:27:44
you know and um still do that and I find
00:27:47
it's my um I find I work through a lot
00:27:49
of problems you know even like
00:27:53
um you know barriers to a story I'm
00:27:55
writing or like oh I could do it this
00:27:56
way
00:27:58
um and you know and emotional stuff so
00:28:00
you know
00:28:01
um yeah I think it's a really good thing
00:28:03
for mental health but that was yeah that
00:28:04
was um it was a big part of why I
00:28:07
started running long distance big part
00:28:08
of it yeah so she missed most of your
00:28:11
career like yeah you never saw me on
00:28:13
telly yeah which Mum would have loved
00:28:14
you know yeah I was still a newspaper
00:28:17
guy when she died and she would have
00:28:18
yeah she would have been um pretty
00:28:20
stoked about that because I I joined uh
00:28:22
tvnz in 2003 late A3 so she never saw
00:28:25
that she never saw that your dad's still
00:28:27
around my dad is he's 89 this year and
00:28:30
he's still working and he's still
00:28:32
tramping and he's still cycling uh I
00:28:35
think he's finally sort of given up
00:28:36
drinking he does a little bit of
00:28:37
drinking he's always been a been a um
00:28:40
you know a guy of real discipline um
00:28:42
over the years but hey yeah he's still
00:28:44
going strong so I had to hopefully get
00:28:45
some of those jeans yeah absolutely
00:28:48
um
00:28:48
now I don't know if you want to talk
00:28:50
about this
00:28:51
um but there's something uh when I
00:28:52
Googled you yesterday there was like a
00:28:54
story online about you being on bumble
00:28:56
yeah and I'm happy happy to talk about
00:28:58
happy to talk about it what happened
00:28:59
have you recently gone through a
00:29:00
relationship yeah that's right yeah no
00:29:02
um I did I separated with my wife in
00:29:05
October of of last year so October of
00:29:08
2020 uh sorry 2022. I had a couple of
00:29:12
years how did you not end up um how did
00:29:13
you get through that without um falling
00:29:15
back on alcohol I think I think that's
00:29:16
is a lot about well I think that's a
00:29:18
that's a really good question we were
00:29:19
married 10 years and we were together 12
00:29:21
years so it was a big relationship I've
00:29:23
got um a daughter together and on the
00:29:26
critical afternoon
00:29:28
um which I which will never forget I was
00:29:30
just about to go out for a run and then
00:29:32
you know we we'd finally sort of decided
00:29:35
and the first thought was I'm gonna go
00:29:38
to the pub and smoke Diaries as well
00:29:40
because I used to I used to be I used to
00:29:43
I used to the cigarettes used to come
00:29:44
out after about the fifth or sixth point
00:29:46
I don't know what you're like but I've
00:29:47
like a non-smoker until the fifth social
00:29:50
social smoke are they call it yeah
00:29:52
social smoker the thing is if you only
00:29:53
do that when you're drinking and you
00:29:54
drink a lot the ineffective
00:29:56
and um that was just a first thought
00:29:58
that went through my head because that
00:30:00
was always that the Escape 2 place I
00:30:02
always thought I'll be all right as long
00:30:03
as I can go to the pub
00:30:05
um and then about 10 minutes later I
00:30:09
laced up my running shoes and went for a
00:30:11
10k run instead and um and then I I knew
00:30:15
that I would I would never go back there
00:30:17
I always thought when I gave up drinking
00:30:19
gee if a big crisis happens and I'd put
00:30:22
divorce is a big crisis absolutely it's
00:30:23
one of the biggest life crisis that you
00:30:25
can go through yeah and it's uh still
00:30:27
you know I feel like fairly relatively
00:30:28
raw here today uh because it's only been
00:30:30
a few months um but I haven't and I
00:30:34
haven't needed to and haven't felt like
00:30:37
doing that
00:30:39
um apart from that first flash of gee I
00:30:41
know where this my brain's gonna go it's
00:30:43
going to go to the bottle but it did it
00:30:44
didn't and um I feel that's a pretty
00:30:47
good stress test and uh something to be
00:30:49
proud of and I don't miss it
00:30:52
it's not an option it's
00:30:53
you don't miss it I I love being around
00:30:55
people drinking I buy wine for people I
00:30:57
always have wine in the house and and
00:30:59
beer in the fridge for mates when they
00:31:01
come around
00:31:02
um so it's not like um yeah that's good
00:31:05
that's good and I don't want to like
00:31:07
Mark anyone but I think that'll be the
00:31:08
worst of non-drinkets like oh guyan's
00:31:10
coming over we better hide all the
00:31:12
alcohol no one else can drink because
00:31:14
he's not it's funny you say that because
00:31:15
that's the hardest thing mate the
00:31:18
hardest thing about giving up drinking
00:31:19
in my experience is not the fact that
00:31:21
you can't have it at five o'clock in the
00:31:23
afternoon or whatever your ritual is
00:31:24
it's the expectations of other people is
00:31:28
the hardest thing because they care so
00:31:30
much about what you're doing it's kind
00:31:32
of weird you think well why don't you
00:31:33
just do your thing and I'm just doing my
00:31:35
thing but no it's this hey there's a
00:31:38
kind of science around what we're doing
00:31:40
and especially when I first gave up It
00:31:43
really used to bug me like um people
00:31:45
would get really quite affronted and
00:31:48
then when you told them that you would
00:31:49
had not only not drinking tonight that
00:31:51
you were never drinking again you could
00:31:52
see the fear in your eyes
00:31:54
because they were like what does it say
00:31:56
about me am I gonna have to give up too
00:31:58
so it's quite interesting
00:32:00
um the social expectations stuff
00:32:03
um that people carry with them about
00:32:05
your drinking yeah and I I that's one of
00:32:09
the main reasons for the book and I
00:32:10
think it's great that people like Patty
00:32:12
Gower who's got a massive reach and is
00:32:14
basically a pop culture hero in New
00:32:16
Zealand at way above what I've I mean we
00:32:18
did similar jobs but he he's got this
00:32:20
massive reach and appeal I think it's
00:32:22
really cool that someone like that has
00:32:24
come out and gone oh I'm off the booze
00:32:26
mate because I I what we need is a
00:32:28
license to say hey it's okay you know I
00:32:31
can get to you guys you know three of us
00:32:33
are drinking I'm not drinking who cares
00:32:35
what's in your glass and what's in your
00:32:37
glass it's the it's the conversation
00:32:39
it's it's what we're doing it's not
00:32:41
about what you're drinking so I think
00:32:43
it's really cool that if we can give
00:32:45
people a license to think hey it's okay
00:32:47
you don't have to drink to be normal and
00:32:49
to have a good time and to have a good
00:32:50
life in New Zealand yeah no absolutely
00:32:52
absolutely I wonder if part of it is
00:32:54
some fear from
00:32:56
I don't know if he's the right word but
00:32:58
the your friends that are still drinking
00:33:00
it's like oh my God he's doing so much
00:33:01
better than me and I'm stuck here on
00:33:04
this um hamster wheel still drinking and
00:33:07
you wonder if um you know you you have
00:33:09
this fear that you can't necessarily do
00:33:11
it yourself yeah I think it is there and
00:33:13
I think it's also
00:33:14
um sort of equate it with a moral thing
00:33:17
and it isn't a moral thing I'm not
00:33:20
judging you by saying I don't drink I'm
00:33:22
a better person than you I don't feel
00:33:23
like that at all it's not a sanctimonial
00:33:25
no it's not and I'm not I'm not
00:33:27
anti-alcohol or anti-any other drugs I'm
00:33:29
not
00:33:30
um that's it's not a moral thing it's
00:33:33
this isn't the temperance Union you know
00:33:35
it's not that's not the early 20th
00:33:36
century in the temperance movement which
00:33:38
we do talk about because the history of
00:33:39
alcohol in New Zealand is amazing and
00:33:41
the morality thing has played a big part
00:33:43
but this isn't about morality it's it's
00:33:45
about me saying alcohol didn't work
00:33:48
didn't work for me and I didn't want to
00:33:50
do it anymore and you don't need it to
00:33:54
um to have fun and you don't need it to
00:33:56
have a good life it's not but it's not
00:33:58
saying well I don't do this it makes me
00:34:00
a better person than you in fact I want
00:34:01
to take that out of the equation at all
00:34:03
and say don't judge people on that at
00:34:05
all right you had some um so we're
00:34:08
bouncing all over the place here but
00:34:09
yeah there's some great Yarns in the
00:34:11
book which I just remembered now like
00:34:12
the um Antarctica story 2009 which
00:34:15
sounds like the big at the beginning of
00:34:16
a joke you know uh Edmund Hillary and
00:34:18
Helen Clark walk into a bar do you want
00:34:21
to tell the story yeah they said and I'm
00:34:23
cringing now talking to you about it it
00:34:25
was unbelievable yeah I mean we went
00:34:27
down with it Hillary it was uh
00:34:30
2006 so it's the 50th anniversary of
00:34:33
Scott bass credible to go down they went
00:34:35
down there on the staff starlifter or
00:34:37
something ahead of Ed Hillary it was um
00:34:39
horizontal for most of the flight
00:34:40
because he's on oxygen he's 86.
00:34:43
um me and the tvnz cameraman hop off the
00:34:46
the style after first to get the shots
00:34:48
of Ed coming back to the ice you know
00:34:49
his eyebrows at sort of three feet thick
00:34:52
you know he's he's a legend and he's
00:34:54
amazing his eyes light up when he sees
00:34:56
the ice it's great we smashed out the
00:34:59
work for sort of three or four nights at
00:35:00
live crosses from Antarctica it was just
00:35:02
a big deal in those days it does it
00:35:04
satellite out and all that stuff and
00:35:05
really hit it and then hit the bar
00:35:08
um on the last night at uh Scott base
00:35:11
really hard and in my defense it was
00:35:13
January so it was 24 hours light
00:35:22
and sort of Hit the booze really hard
00:35:24
and then
00:35:26
um sort of ended up my last steps were
00:35:28
like um in this common living area where
00:35:30
it had an utter skin fill and I was
00:35:32
still holding a glass of sort of red
00:35:33
wine and so and when I came it out and
00:35:36
the next morning in walks Helen Clark Ed
00:35:40
Hillary Jerry matapurai you know the
00:35:42
good and great New Zealand chief of
00:35:44
Defense Force alleged and the prime
00:35:46
minister to see this guy comb it out
00:35:48
um you know absolutely wreaking of
00:35:50
alcohol
00:35:51
um you know and I can laugh about it now
00:35:53
but um yeah yeah I got closest to losing
00:35:57
my job well they were Subterranean
00:36:00
efforts and emails and reputation
00:36:02
managers flying around and there's a
00:36:04
little bit of heat that never got there
00:36:06
was a kind of force field around shield
00:36:08
around me never really got to that
00:36:11
um I think you would nowadays
00:36:14
myself I don't think you'd survive at
00:36:16
night no you didn't survive now but you
00:36:18
see yeah now you know um and people do
00:36:21
it um people did and far worse things
00:36:25
um you know MPS as well and that's what
00:36:27
we're talking about before the license
00:36:28
that you're given I don't know that that
00:36:30
extends to that now but but interesting
00:36:32
what was my reaction to that it wasn't
00:36:34
like [ __ ] I've nearly lost my job as
00:36:36
political edit I was like 35 this was my
00:36:38
career like just coming you know taking
00:36:41
off really massive job one of the
00:36:43
biggest jobs in New Zealand journalism
00:36:44
you know still is a big job
00:36:46
um I didn't go [ __ ] you know um I better
00:36:49
knocked us on the head I just kept going
00:36:51
just kept doing it and tried to blame
00:36:53
someone else
00:36:55
yeah I blamed a guy who took a photo of
00:36:57
me and put it on the gallery why'd you
00:36:59
do that you know you know
00:37:01
um or there was an excuse there's always
00:37:02
an excuse as a drinker you know and I'm
00:37:05
a relatively smart person I had 35 years
00:37:08
of excuses oh it's the spear I won't
00:37:10
drink coffee
00:37:14
it's the Kebab at there on the way home
00:37:16
that did you
00:37:17
um yeah
00:37:22
um what um what what sort of uh physical
00:37:24
changes have you noticed I'm guessing it
00:37:26
wasn't long before you started noticing
00:37:27
a bit of sleep sleep habits
00:37:30
that's that's step one you cannot I
00:37:33
challenge anyone who's a drinker to say
00:37:34
they have good sleeps more than two
00:37:36
drinks and I'd be always waking up so
00:37:38
sleep is is the art of first one one of
00:37:41
the only other massive ones is weight it
00:37:43
just um I felt
00:37:46
you lose quite a lot of weight and you
00:37:48
find it easy heaps easier to keep off
00:37:50
and when you're not drinking because not
00:37:52
only because of all the calories in the
00:37:53
alcohol but also it changes the way you
00:37:56
eat quite a lot did with me and not only
00:37:58
at the time I don't always eat more oh
00:38:00
it'll be quite nice with this glass of
00:38:01
wine oh I try this with this beer you
00:38:04
know and but then the next day your body
00:38:06
would well I would think it would crave
00:38:08
the fat and you would like go after
00:38:09
those sorts of um meals when you when
00:38:12
you were head drunk the night before
00:38:15
um but the immune system too
00:38:18
um I've found myself getting far less
00:38:21
um without drinking absolutely and
00:38:24
actually you know and I researched this
00:38:25
in in the book and it's not just my
00:38:27
theory you know Mayo Clinic and others
00:38:29
uh we Source all that stuff in the book
00:38:30
that that alcohol has serious impact on
00:38:33
the immune system and I found that
00:38:36
from getting ice get sick quite a bit
00:38:38
you know like once a month get a bad
00:38:40
cold or you know
00:38:41
um you get the flu or something and it's
00:38:45
almost never happened to me in in these
00:38:47
years now yeah look some of that will be
00:38:49
the covert lockdowns and all that stuff
00:38:51
um but massive impact on on my immune
00:38:55
system and and felt and just not getting
00:38:57
sick nearly as much oh yeah the
00:38:59
lockdowns weren't you bored everyone
00:39:01
drank more on the lockdown
00:39:03
yeah they they did they did
00:39:05
um but now again again that was like I
00:39:08
think I might have had a flash of a
00:39:10
moment where I thought would this be the
00:39:12
trigger but again it hasn't been and so
00:39:15
having gone through a pandemic and a
00:39:16
divorce and a cyclone
00:39:19
um
00:39:20
but I'm kind of thinking yeah nah I'm
00:39:24
clear of this now and I was thinking
00:39:25
it's interesting because you have these
00:39:26
little things in your head don't you
00:39:27
what what say someone gave you a year to
00:39:29
live or a week to live would you get
00:39:31
drunk and I wouldn't it's gone mate it's
00:39:34
wasting some good hours it's just gone
00:39:36
it's just gone as a Temptation and it's
00:39:37
funny the way the brain works how long
00:39:39
did they take
00:39:40
immediately that's the weird thing I
00:39:43
just I just knew that morning's just
00:39:45
gone
00:39:46
so which sounds impressive to you think
00:39:48
[ __ ] you overdrank for 35 years what a
00:39:50
[ __ ]
00:39:52
so you know it depends which way you
00:39:53
want to take it hey
00:39:55
um
00:39:57
but it's amazing how something that has
00:40:00
been such a massive part of your life
00:40:03
you know
00:40:04
um can disappear so quickly and um you
00:40:07
can just move on how are you how are you
00:40:10
coping now with the um relatively recent
00:40:12
relationship breakup I I've been through
00:40:13
like a break me and my wife we broke up
00:40:15
about five years is that right we're
00:40:16
still we're still particularly close now
00:40:18
but um I still have um like moments when
00:40:20
I'm running where I um you know I feel
00:40:22
like regret or guilt and shame that you
00:40:25
know I took it for granted or I
00:40:27
prioritize my work over here and uh you
00:40:30
know I I look back and I think
00:40:32
you know I could have worked harder and
00:40:34
made that relationship work and it still
00:40:35
plays on my mind but you do you you
00:40:37
think are you are you with relationships
00:40:39
like hell with alcohol where are you
00:40:40
good at like drawing a Line in the Sand
00:40:41
saying that's it and moving on I don't
00:40:44
think you can from something like that
00:40:45
eh
00:40:46
um and you know there's no there's no uh
00:40:49
there's no poison or toxic stuff there
00:40:52
um you know we've got a good
00:40:53
relationship too but uh just run its
00:40:56
course it'll run its course
00:40:58
um but I'd be lying if I'd said that I
00:41:01
was completely uh fine with it um it's
00:41:04
it's really it's really tough and it
00:41:06
makes you feel quite vulnerable and you
00:41:07
you know it's a massive ShakeOut man
00:41:10
um and Yeah you sort of have to rebuild
00:41:13
your life and I'm still as we're talking
00:41:15
now you know in in late February I'm
00:41:19
still
00:41:20
bit shell-shocked by it like thinking
00:41:22
should how do I how do I rebuild and how
00:41:24
how's this going to look like because I
00:41:26
never thought that it would happen
00:41:28
to me and I thought that that's how I
00:41:30
was going to live out my life with a
00:41:32
family like I I was quite simple in
00:41:34
those terms I had my job and my family
00:41:36
that was pretty much it that was what I
00:41:38
kind of felt that's how I you know that
00:41:40
was how I was going to play out my job
00:41:42
my family in a Netflix account you know
00:41:43
that's kind of what I that's kind of
00:41:45
that's kind of you're a happy man yeah
00:41:47
yeah yeah and and now look there are
00:41:50
exciting bits about that too like in the
00:41:52
in that there's there's unknown stuff
00:41:54
out there and there's Adventure out
00:41:55
there but it's hard too isn't it getting
00:41:57
off to off the couch and out of that
00:41:58
comfort zone so it's a little bit
00:42:00
frightening to be honest with you yeah
00:42:02
thanks for sharing that was it was it
00:42:03
did it come as like a shock to you or
00:42:05
was it sort of building
00:42:06
it's one of those things that in
00:42:08
retrospect you you piece it all together
00:42:10
and you know if you piece it all
00:42:12
together for someone they'll be like
00:42:13
yeah bro this is you know what which why
00:42:17
can't you understand this but I don't
00:42:19
know I suppose you you well I do you
00:42:21
keep thinking well it's gonna get it's
00:42:23
going to get better here or it's going
00:42:24
to get stronger here or this is just a
00:42:26
rough patch and we had had um you know
00:42:28
tough times that we'd both had careers
00:42:30
that we were putting a hell of a lot
00:42:31
into and then we had the pandemic and
00:42:33
everything so you kind of go
00:42:35
you do I think you look for excuses or
00:42:38
not even excuses just reasons why things
00:42:40
aren't firing at the moment and that
00:42:42
it'll be okay
00:42:44
um so yeah there was a there was an
00:42:45
element where it was a bit of a rupture
00:42:47
for me it's had the right because yeah
00:42:48
people people change like people are
00:42:50
changing all the time and I think that's
00:42:51
a good thing
00:42:53
um but it's hard to change as an
00:42:55
individual and then sort of stay
00:42:56
together in the same direction as a
00:42:58
couple I think that's bloody tough I
00:42:59
think that's right and when you when you
00:43:01
look back on it you know when when you
00:43:03
look back and and in history for example
00:43:05
like let's say you know Jane marries
00:43:08
John in 1943 he goes off to war if he
00:43:10
survives there and I married a rugby
00:43:12
club and they've got kids and and he
00:43:14
dies at 46 or something you know that
00:43:16
that's back in the day right nowadays
00:43:19
you might live to a hundred you've got
00:43:20
four different careers you know she's
00:43:22
got six different careers and has
00:43:24
changed her personality utterly you know
00:43:26
three times it's just and the pressure
00:43:30
on people to be everything to each other
00:43:32
is massive you know you've got to be a
00:43:35
soul mate you you know a a great
00:43:37
co-parent uh have you know be entwined
00:43:42
in someone else's career and all of that
00:43:43
pressure
00:43:45
um I think a lot of a lot of times it it
00:43:47
falls over so yeah and your point about
00:43:51
um personal change I think while it's
00:43:53
really cool that we all have not all of
00:43:56
us but a lot of us have have great
00:43:57
opportunities to change and grow in our
00:43:59
careers and as people
00:44:00
that that puts its own pressure on eh
00:44:03
yeah I reckon absolutely it's funny the
00:44:04
the couple you uh the fictional couple
00:44:06
that you described before it does sound
00:44:08
a lot like my parents were they it was
00:44:09
basically an arranged marriage they're
00:44:10
from the same church congregation and
00:44:12
live in so this was in the 1960s where
00:44:14
you know you basically lived in your
00:44:16
your town and that was that was your lot
00:44:17
in life and now the world's like a one
00:44:19
big Global community so yeah and there's
00:44:21
so much so many more options and you
00:44:23
expect you you were happy with that
00:44:25
right well it wasn't really an
00:44:27
opportunity outside those walls now
00:44:29
we're told to pursue everything for
00:44:31
ourselves right and um yeah that that
00:44:35
can Splinter stuff apart yeah see so you
00:44:37
went on Bumble last year I read about
00:44:39
this in the paper was that mortifying
00:44:40
yeah it was it was humiliating yeah it
00:44:43
was humiliating so I mean I mean so so
00:44:45
you know single guy joins dating app is
00:44:48
not a story that's the way people meet
00:44:50
nowadays in the 2020s yeah you had no
00:44:53
part in that it was in um no no pardon
00:44:55
their story no you seem like you've been
00:44:58
very open with me today and I really
00:44:59
appreciate it but I mean you're a real
00:45:00
private guide it's not about not a lot
00:45:02
about you online and I read this Bumble
00:45:03
story and no I felt for you it was
00:45:05
humiliating
00:45:07
um I mean there is nothing to me no he's
00:45:11
not and I'm happy to to to to to talk to
00:45:14
you about it and there's nothing wrong
00:45:16
at all with being on a dating app and
00:45:19
I've I've found that
00:45:20
um in my experience people have using
00:45:22
them had a lot of integrity and it did
00:45:25
you know for people who are still
00:45:26
scornful about it do you think was
00:45:28
better what we did which was you go to a
00:45:30
pub get pissed and pass someone in the
00:45:31
car park that that was the that's how
00:45:34
you met people in New Zealand I mean
00:45:36
actually it isn't meeting people for
00:45:39
coffee dates
00:45:41
um which is uh I don't know how you
00:45:44
conduct yourself I ain't got too far
00:45:45
into that but
00:45:46
um but yeah no certainly I'm certainly
00:45:48
not ashamed of that but when someone
00:45:50
points it out it's in the newspaper it
00:45:53
takes on a different Hue doesn't it and
00:45:55
it's like oh this guy's in the news and
00:45:56
then of course a headlining a Looking
00:45:58
For Love or something and it's just like
00:45:59
as you say I'm mean I've never done the
00:46:02
woman's weekly stories and all that not
00:46:03
that there's anything wrong with it but
00:46:04
that's just my thing I haven't done that
00:46:06
I've conducted myself in a certain way
00:46:08
and I'm not a hypocrite I've not done
00:46:11
stories about other people's
00:46:13
relationships or personal stuff I
00:46:15
haven't I've never conducted myself in
00:46:17
that way you know I've done something
00:46:18
once you dip your toes in those Waters
00:46:20
you sort of open yourself right or wrong
00:46:21
to that sort of screen and look at look
00:46:23
at look at my career you know politics q
00:46:25
a you went through some of them uh
00:46:27
Morning Report you know I'm not I
00:46:29
haven't gone after people's personal
00:46:31
lives and so I would you know it was a
00:46:34
bit confronting for me to to to to to to
00:46:36
have that but you know it is what it is
00:46:39
they are it's you know it is what it is
00:46:41
bro yeah when my marriage broke up I I
00:46:45
was on um Tinder for I think about 30
00:46:47
minutes and um I deleted my account
00:46:50
because first of all it felt like a very
00:46:51
shallow existence I'm flipping through
00:46:53
photos judging people based on a like a
00:46:56
two second glance and then it occurred
00:46:57
to me that they're doing exactly the
00:46:59
same thing which is awful but then
00:47:01
another thing that occurred to me is if
00:47:02
someone gets a screen cap of this and it
00:47:04
ends up being a story on stuff I'll be
00:47:06
mortified so I deleted the account for
00:47:08
that reason which is probably like a
00:47:09
it's a it's a it's a terrible way to
00:47:12
live your life
00:47:13
you should have messaged me earlier
00:47:18
hey bro get it get off this yeah
00:47:21
um are you um are you dating now are you
00:47:24
still on any of the apps how do you find
00:47:26
dating as a sober man well that's
00:47:28
interesting isn't it because
00:47:30
um again you know from a very young age
00:47:32
alcohol was a massive part of meeting
00:47:35
anyone and um it is harder socially
00:47:38
harder
00:47:39
um in just about all of those
00:47:41
circumstances
00:47:43
um you get better at it as as you go on
00:47:46
but
00:47:47
um in an in a society which
00:47:51
structures a lot of social time around
00:47:54
alcohol it is harder as a non-drinker
00:47:56
and again you know and I've said it a
00:47:58
few times in this interview
00:47:59
um that's a big reason why I wanted to
00:48:01
write this book to look at why we link
00:48:04
those two things so so closely and what
00:48:08
it's like to live and socialize without
00:48:10
alcohol but I tell you what it's pretty
00:48:12
real man without it you know all the
00:48:15
feelings are yours
00:48:17
you know you think about so oh Dutch
00:48:19
courage you talk about that and you're
00:48:20
talking about having a few drinks and
00:48:22
all that well so it's interesting isn't
00:48:24
it also what are you running away from
00:48:26
and what what is what are the negative
00:48:28
bits about your feelings yeah so you get
00:48:30
a bit more fear and a bit more anxiety
00:48:32
but they're your feelings and so there's
00:48:34
a bit of courage in there and um you
00:48:37
know the relationships you do Forge are
00:48:39
pretty real and the feelings you have
00:48:41
are real and they're not you know
00:48:43
they're not brought to you by Brewery
00:48:44
yeah I can imagine um it's terrifying in
00:48:46
a lot of ways it's like um you know you
00:48:49
go out with someone for the first time
00:48:50
you have three wines and you're probably
00:48:52
more likely to think yeah now's the
00:48:53
moment to go in for a kiss yeah um
00:48:55
because you've got their Dutch courage
00:48:56
with without any of that it's like
00:48:58
you're making a sound decision based on
00:49:01
what you've experienced and what's in
00:49:03
front of you yeah I think that's that's
00:49:05
right
00:49:06
um and yeah socially especially when you
00:49:09
first stop drinking you it's the when
00:49:12
you go into say a party it's the first
00:49:14
10 or 15 minutes that's really really
00:49:16
difficult because people really want you
00:49:20
to drink you know and the host always
00:49:22
that out of a good place right they want
00:49:24
to be a good host and so you get that
00:49:27
real pressure and if you're standing
00:49:28
around a small group of people say for
00:49:30
example in a Social Circle and I've got
00:49:32
everyone else to drink what are you
00:49:34
gonna have and you go oh you know if
00:49:36
you've got some sparkling water you know
00:49:38
and it's and it's hard so you've got to
00:49:40
come up you
00:49:41
you work it out in the end you work out
00:49:43
what your lines are you know some some
00:49:45
some non-drinkers that I know
00:49:48
um get into the uh the no lows you know
00:49:50
the no and low alcohol drinks or they'll
00:49:54
have basically a disguise disguised
00:49:56
drink I haven't really gone down that
00:49:58
line but you do need to sort your story
00:50:00
out so that you've got a bit of a bit of
00:50:02
a comeback because it's pretty full-on
00:50:05
that I mean the first the first gig and
00:50:07
it's in the book was the 2019 radio
00:50:09
awards now do you mean the ray Awards
00:50:11
man I mean
00:50:13
yeah and you know and everyone comes up
00:50:15
from regions and everyone's right out
00:50:17
for it and you know that night was beer
00:50:21
and wine were the only choices of drinks
00:50:23
that stinking heart you're sweating like
00:50:25
a pig
00:50:27
um and that was my first night without
00:50:28
drinking and everyone was just telling
00:50:30
War Stories in my face and it was I
00:50:32
thought man this is gonna be these are
00:50:34
going to be long years but you get
00:50:36
better at it you get better at it I
00:50:38
suppose with each challenge like you're
00:50:39
a New Year's Eve baby as well so New
00:50:41
Year's Eve is probably always a big
00:50:42
night night for you so I suppose you get
00:50:44
through these little milestones and you
00:50:45
survive them and yeah I suppose the most
00:50:48
recent one for you has been you know you
00:50:49
let your relationship breakdown and you
00:50:51
get through that and uh they I suppose
00:50:52
they just build that resilience and
00:50:54
that's absolutely right you do you go
00:50:55
okay well so here's a Christmas without
00:50:57
this part of the family or here's a
00:50:58
Christmas without alcohol and
00:51:01
um you learn you build and you adapt now
00:51:05
how's your mental health been over the
00:51:06
years has it has it been good it has
00:51:08
been you've been through some challenges
00:51:09
though you've been through a lot of
00:51:10
stuff yeah I have yeah I have
00:51:12
um
00:51:13
and look you know to Circle it back to
00:51:16
running
00:51:17
um it's a big part of it and I run most
00:51:20
I try to have two days off a week
00:51:22
um just to preserve the you know yeah
00:51:27
um but a big part of my mental health I
00:51:29
put down to my running yeah big part of
00:51:31
it but also alcohol you know it
00:51:34
they call it anxiety now because it's a
00:51:37
it's a it's a jewel thing of the of the
00:51:39
chemistry and I don't understand enough
00:51:40
about the the chemistry to go into it
00:51:42
but basically you know there is a
00:51:44
chemical reason it increases the anxiety
00:51:46
and then you hook that up with the what
00:51:48
exactly did I say last night and you get
00:51:51
that feeling of anxiety and I I used to
00:51:54
have that a lot oh I used to have that a
00:51:56
lot you know the greatest thing about
00:51:58
not drinking
00:51:59
is the likeness of being
00:52:01
you never have that shame like we talked
00:52:04
before about years but harder you're on
00:52:06
a day till you you know hang out with
00:52:08
mates and it's a bit harder because you
00:52:09
don't have that you know
00:52:12
um that freeing up of the alcohol but
00:52:14
the reward is you never feel ashamed I
00:52:17
hate shame it's a it's a massive burden
00:52:20
that was that's that's the biggest thing
00:52:22
it's just that likeness of being like
00:52:24
never going
00:52:25
you know I might have stuffed up at work
00:52:27
or I might have said the wrong thing but
00:52:29
I own it now like it's neither someone
00:52:31
else's fault or I never like that Gray
00:52:33
Zone what exactly did happen there you
00:52:36
know and I used to get that I don't know
00:52:37
about you I used to get that all the
00:52:39
time just that um just that big weight
00:52:41
of of Shame and the lightness of being
00:52:44
from not drinking is just bloody great
00:52:46
right it's funny you should say that
00:52:47
because
00:52:48
um I I get that as well and it's never a
00:52:50
um like fear of anything I've said or
00:52:53
done because I'll go through my phone in
00:52:54
the morning and all my interactions on
00:52:56
social media when I've been drank are
00:52:58
all positive and nice
00:52:59
um but I'll just wake up at three or
00:53:01
four in the morning after a big night
00:53:02
and lie awake for a couple of hours with
00:53:04
I don't know if it's a sugar Spike or
00:53:05
what it is what the Sciences behind it
00:53:06
but although they're awake and I'll just
00:53:08
be ashamed of myself yeah I know it was
00:53:11
exactly the same well yeah maybe it was
00:53:12
letting myself down yeah in that yeah
00:53:14
there were no you know stories about oh
00:53:17
and then you know and then he smashed a
00:53:19
window and did something crazy again
00:53:21
yeah
00:53:22
um although in the teenage years it
00:53:24
might have been a bit of that but but um
00:53:26
oh yeah we can touch upon that if you
00:53:27
want you spend a night in jail I did
00:53:29
yeah you read the book closely I did
00:53:30
yeah I did yeah I did I was banned for
00:53:33
life from Warner's Pub and uh I don't I
00:53:36
don't think it's still standing after
00:53:37
the earthquakes but
00:53:38
um yeah it truly was a lifetime Bear
00:53:40
yeah yeah that's right and I woke up in
00:53:42
the police cells um so yeah I Had My
00:53:44
Moments um especially in my late teens
00:53:46
and early 20s but but most of it was
00:53:49
like you
00:53:50
um hadn't actually done anything really
00:53:52
wrong but just that yeah you have let
00:53:54
myself down I didn't think she thought
00:53:56
about it like that I think that's what
00:53:58
it probably maybe a lot of it was but
00:54:00
yeah it's it's an awful feeling eh yeah
00:54:02
it is it is it's just yeah yeah I
00:54:05
suppose you have higher standards or
00:54:07
revision of your life and it feels like
00:54:09
you're letting yourself down a little
00:54:09
bit but anyway I'm I'm speaking
00:54:12
as this from a perspective of where I am
00:54:14
now which is still as a drinker
00:54:17
um so it seems like we've got some work
00:54:18
to do but your book has definitely made
00:54:19
me think about things that's cool it
00:54:21
really is that's cool I really enjoy it
00:54:23
so um it's called the drinking game who
00:54:25
would it give us the elevator patch who
00:54:27
would it appeal to I think it appealed
00:54:29
to just about everyone
00:54:32
um in that just about everyone drinks
00:54:34
and has relationships with people who do
00:54:37
and it's such a massive part of our life
00:54:40
and you know this isn't a book about how
00:54:43
to stop drinking alcohol it isn't a book
00:54:45
about
00:54:46
the evils of alcohol it's a book about
00:54:49
the place of alcohol in our lives and
00:54:52
how we got to where we are now and I
00:54:56
hope that people do think about what is
00:54:59
my relationship with alcohol and why do
00:55:01
I do what I do and if you're good with
00:55:04
it keep going but if it's something that
00:55:07
you want to revisit after reading it
00:55:10
then that's cool too so I've just wanted
00:55:13
to take a good look at something that is
00:55:15
so woven really deeply into our lives
00:55:18
and go how did we get here
00:55:21
are you proud of it I am I'm really
00:55:23
proud of it actually I'm really proud of
00:55:25
it it's um you know you were showing me
00:55:27
a copy before and it'll still take fried
00:55:29
a bit because it's something and I know
00:55:30
that you know you've had two or three
00:55:32
boxes three or three books but again the
00:55:34
books um with a lot of fat jokes and
00:55:36
basically
00:55:37
not going to change the fabric of
00:55:38
society like your book no I don't know
00:55:40
that it'll do that either but um but
00:55:42
it's kind of weird isn't it because it
00:55:43
exists in your head and then in your
00:55:44
computer files for quite a while and
00:55:45
then you're like oh my God I'm gonna
00:55:47
read it what are you doing with that
00:55:48
copy of my book yeah
00:55:50
um so but it's exciting as well so yeah
00:55:52
I'm proud of it and I'm proud to see it
00:55:53
out in the world yeah so how's the
00:55:55
future looking for you well what's
00:55:56
what's the next five years ten years
00:55:57
like career look wise personal life
00:55:59
you're hoping to marry again it's one
00:56:00
day or too early to say
00:56:03
I I yeah it's um yeah probably you know
00:56:06
I mean you're romantic I am actually I
00:56:11
am actually your first relationship that
00:56:12
you talked about the 10 years 11 years
00:56:14
ago you didn't marry no we didn't yeah
00:56:16
yeah so you've only been married once
00:56:18
yes that's right yeah yeah and yeah I'm
00:56:21
someone who I'm I'm pretty good on my
00:56:24
own but um yeah I think it's nice to
00:56:26
share stuff with people so yeah yeah and
00:56:28
journalism-wise I've made a decision a
00:56:31
number of years ago that I would never
00:56:32
go down the management track that I'm a
00:56:34
Storyteller and a content provider and
00:56:36
so I'll be telling stories for whoever
00:56:39
whoever has me you know whether it's
00:56:40
merging with tvnz and that stuff
00:56:43
um or or whatever
00:56:45
um and whether it's writing or
00:56:47
broadcasting doing radio like I like the
00:56:49
setup actually mate I might have a
00:56:51
chatty after we get off here and see it
00:56:52
see how you set this up I've been going
00:56:55
a year and at this day just about as
00:56:56
lucrative as writing a book
00:56:59
don't quit your day job just yet but um
00:57:02
but I like it I like it after after
00:57:03
having a uh very long and very
00:57:05
successful career in music radio we're
00:57:07
um it was very restrictive who I could
00:57:09
speak to
00:57:10
um mainly just like pop singers to being
00:57:11
able to speak to whoever I want and have
00:57:13
long form conversations with them I'm
00:57:14
thoroughly enjoying it's very cool and I
00:57:16
like your branding too it's very cool
00:57:18
thanks very much hey um wonderful to
00:57:20
meet you you too man you've enjoyed it
00:57:21
it's been a good uh yeah I appreciate
00:57:24
you being so um honest and open as well
00:57:25
and oh one last thing who's gonna win
00:57:27
the election this year
00:57:34
it's gonna be a really really close call
00:57:37
I mean I would have thought it was
00:57:38
Nationals to lose before this uh Cyclone
00:57:40
before the the leadership transition
00:57:42
which has handled pretty well you'd have
00:57:44
to you you'd say that the odds are with
00:57:46
labor probably at the moment but I would
00:57:48
say it's going to be a a knife edge 05
00:57:50
style election where it's really really
00:57:52
close and you might get a third party
00:57:53
deciding uh who who's going to govern so
00:57:56
yeah look it's 50 50 mate it's too close
00:57:58
to cool because I don't really follow
00:58:00
politics closely enough to have an
00:58:02
informed opinion on it but people I
00:58:03
speak to say luxons um like a bit
00:58:05
underwhelming is that right he's
00:58:08
flailing a bit but I think you have to
00:58:09
realize he was only 18 months in
00:58:11
Parliament before he took over as leader
00:58:13
you know and there is not much of a an
00:58:16
apprenticeship at all and you know he
00:58:18
he's doing a lot better than Collins did
00:58:20
and um you know that and they had Muller
00:58:23
and in between that
00:58:25
um and so they've been a real schmuzzle
00:58:27
for a while so he stabilized it but yeah
00:58:30
he he he's plateaued a bit hey I mean it
00:58:33
was an Air New Zealand plane he's he's
00:58:35
sort of plateaued at 30 30 000 feet
00:58:40
for a while
00:58:42
did you use um share who you vote for or
00:58:45
do you keep that firmly to your chest I
00:58:48
I'll say this much um I'll say a few
00:58:50
things because we have been very open in
00:58:52
ours today
00:58:53
um I didn't vote at all when I was in
00:58:54
the Press Gallery because I thought that
00:58:56
when I did 14 15 years in the Press
00:58:57
Gallery because I thought that was the
00:58:58
easiest way to handle it I'll just you
00:58:59
know but I have since then and I'll say
00:59:02
I've voted both sides of the track left
00:59:04
and right uh in the in those days you're
00:59:07
a swinger yeah
00:59:10
don't Circle back to the Daily don't
00:59:13
Circle back to the dating X mate we're
00:59:15
done with it all right hey guy and he's
00:59:17
been a wonderful to meet you and um best
00:59:19
of luck with your new book the drinking
00:59:20
game and best look for the future as
00:59:22
well thanks very much
00:59:23
[Music]
00:59:33
thank you
00:59:36
[Music]
