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Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first.
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Grant Fox, welcome to my podcast. Nice
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to be here, Dom. Mate, it's an honor to
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have you. I've done so much um
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researched. I tracked down this book
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from a secondhand bookshop in in Vicagle
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of all places. That's from a dump bin in
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the bookshop, right? The game, the gold,
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the grant fox. When was the last time
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you saw your book? H I can't remember.
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There is I've got one at home, but that
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was um published in 1992. M and I I
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found this book as well on my bookcase
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at home. Uh Martin Crow Raw, your good
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friend, and you wrote the forward to
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that book. So I've researched um I've
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researched hard. This is going to be a
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great chat. First of all, um where do
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you think your place is in New Zealand
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Rugby? Like do you see yourself as one
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of the goats? No. And I don't I don't
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see a place um that's for other people
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to judge, not for me. Um, you know, I
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was lucky enough to be able to play a
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game I loved and represent my country at
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it and have have a long career, had a
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lot of fun, you achieved a lot. Um, and
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that's still part of my history. I
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can't, you know, you can't rub that out.
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And that's, you know, it's a nice part
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of history to to fall back on and
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remember. Um, but other people will
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judge where where I sit. Um, and that,
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you know, and if you talk to all the
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other players, I think they'll be
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exactly the same. They don't really care
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about that. It's just it's a fascinating
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game other people want to play. um in
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the media ranking and all that sort of
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stuff. Um I'm not interested in in that
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sort of stuff. You know, other people
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can have their judgments for me. Um
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privilege um helped me get where I am
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today. Um but it's just that's just part
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of my life story cuz I I know you're
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from what I've um researched. I know
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you're a bit of a technopobe, which is
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so am I. I'm I call myself a boomer. I'm
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not a boomer, but I've got big boomer
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energy. But um you must be familiar with
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some aspects of AI and chat GPT. I've
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heard of chat GPT. Um, and I've only
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ever used it once and I didn't use it.
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Um, my CEO in Australia asked me to
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write a bio for a new group of investors
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and I don't have a bio, right? So, I'm
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just that's not happening. So, I got him
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a colleague at work to go to chat GPT to
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research and when I read I thought hell
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I was bloody good, wasn't I?
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It was so full of bloody nonsense. But
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to be fair, I used it and cut and pasted
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it because it was a because I just I'm
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not I'm not worried about that stuff.
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But this guy, he was insisting I did it.
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So I used the technology. Only time I've
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used it will never use it again. But it
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was an interesting exercise to go
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through and go, "Okay, where they where
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do they get that from and as I said, it
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painted me a lot better than I ever
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was." So anytime you need an ego
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booster. Yeah, I know. Go to chat GBT.
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So, I typed into chat GPT um you know
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who is the greatest uh all black number
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10 of all time and um uh it came up with
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an answer. It said this is a highly
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debated topic among New Zealand rugby
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fans, but most discussions typically
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include these standouts and um I've got
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five names here. Who do you think who do
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you think they would be? Uh Daniel. Mhm.
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Uh Andrew. Yes. Um God, are you going to
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test my memory here? Um,
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uh, I'm trying to think you played for a
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long time and it So, give me a hint.
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Predates how era. Okay, I'll tell you
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what. You're you're on the list. You're
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on the top five. Okay. So, I'm missing
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You're the oldest on the list. Yeah. Am
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I? I'm the oldest on the list. Okay. So,
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it's more recent. So, you got Mertz,
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Carter, yourself. Yeah. All right. I
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don't I'm not I haven't I haven't been
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in the rugby scene for a while, so I'm
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trying to And my memor is failing. I'm
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trying to remember. You have to help me.
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Okay. Bod, of course, and Richie Manga.
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Oh, of course. Okay. Yeah. Okay. What
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What do you think of that list? It's a
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privilege to be on that list. Um, but
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it's hard to judge the modern day player
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against guys who've in the past because,
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you know, what about some of our greats
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in the past? Um, you know, Douggee
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Bruce, Wayne Smith, um, didn't play as
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many tests as a guy play plays nowadays
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and probably in many ways a whole lot
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less media noise around it, not social
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media, a whole lot of different things.
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So uh and with the the game the game the
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skill set involved in the game now
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hasn't changed since the game was
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amended. You know kick run pass tackle
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in no particular order that's the game
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and how you how you how you you know how
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you get accumulate your points tries and
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penalties and conversions drop goals
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nothing's changed but the structure of
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the game has changed and these guys play
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a lot of testing you know they're
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playing 13 14 15 tests a year now um you
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know when I start when I finished I
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think we got to 10 um but before that it
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was um maybe six or seven. Yeah. Um, and
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in the older days, some years there
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wouldn't be an all black team playing
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test matches, so it's very hard to make
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comparisons.
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You mentioned um Wayne Smith in that in
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that in that breath just before um Sir
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Wayne Smith, the man known as the
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professor. Um I read a story in part of
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my research. Did he clean your boots for
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you once or offer to clean your Yep, he
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did. That's true. Um so Fiji 1984 was my
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first tour. So end of the domestic
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season, I got picked for a short tour to
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Fiji. Um Smithy was the incumbent 10 and
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and I was the new guy picked. Um and on
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my first game um he was not in we
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weren't rooming. Oh, we may have been
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rooming together. I can't quite remember
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but he might have been. He just came
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down and offered to clean my boots. Um
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and that wasn't an uncommon thing for
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players to do to help the new person. So
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an incumbent senior experienced person
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would come along and help induct the new
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guy and just give them every every
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little bit of assistance they could.
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That's the all black way of doing
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things. So So he he was like higher than
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you on the line. Of course he was. cuz
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he was the incumbent. So he was
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absolutely I was the new boy my first
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tour and there there wasn't an official
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test. There was a test against Fiji but
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not not recorded as an official test
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match. Um but I always clean my own
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boots. I had a routine, right? So I
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always wash my laces the night before,
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took them out, wash them all, you know,
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hung them to dry. Um I on match day
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morning, I' i'd use Nugget Nugget, not
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the liquid, the proper one. And I' I'd
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wash and clean my boots and you know,
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because the boots we practice in were
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the boots we played in in those days. um
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because it's was just comfortable to do
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that. Um so I was I so I declined
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smoking only because it was part of my
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routine and I I'd always done that. I
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find that a fascinating story because I
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suppose I always have this perception of
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almost um under the 2025 lens it
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probably could be called sort of like
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bullying or the hierarchy seniority
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thing in the back. Yeah, there is still
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I mean when when look when I they will
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still have a backseat of the bus, right?
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and and and um so there is I mean look
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it's it's a more um uh historical
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hierarchical structure but um it's not
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the way I mean it would have been
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tougher in the old days compared to the
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lens we look at things nowadays right
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but there will still be the senior guys
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down the back of the bus and when you
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you're in the orats long enough and
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luckily I was I graduated eventually at
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the end of my career to the back seat
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which was a was a great privilege but
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the backseat of the bus really was we
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traveled a lot on buses in those days
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they didn't do it so much nowadays Um,
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but it was really an in-house
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disciplinary thing that was just dealt
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with things that were more to do with,
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you know, if a guy had transgressed uh,
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you know, an expected set of behaviors
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perhaps off the field, you answered to
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the back seat. I mean if it was really
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serious it got to management but we
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tried to do a lot of this stuff because
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that's about peer group peer group
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pressure because the judgment of your
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peers is pretty harsh and you know there
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was a a certain um there was a brutality
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is the wrong word but we we were
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brutally honest with each other and that
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that related to anything to do with how
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how the all blacks conducted themselves
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which lent itself into how we played. Um
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and so the backseat had an important
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function but it wasn't above anything
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else. It was just part of um it was just
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part of the culture in those days. It
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still is, but it probably may not
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perform the quite the same function, but
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to some degree a little bit cuz I um
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Christian Cullen on the podcast last
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year and he talked about how he made the
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All Blacks and a lot of the senior guys
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like wouldn't talk to him and then he
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played his first test and I think he's
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got three tries and then he thought,
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"Oh, maybe they'll talk to me now." He
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was still a bit like sort of
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standoffish. He's like, "What do I have
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to do to prove myself?" But the fact
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that you were talking about Smithy like
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offering to clean your boots, it's it
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says a lot. Yeah. But that but that was
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the way it was, you know. I mean, I can
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remember as a senior player when Simon
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Mannis came away to France in 1990 as he
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was young. He's about 18 or 19 Max was.
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And it was, you know, I'd always
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remember what Smithy um had, how he had
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behaved towards me. So that was, you
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know, my job with sign. But you als you
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also don't want to be overbearing. You
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got to be really careful that you don't
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try and model them to you. they've got
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to be their own authentic self. Um, but
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it was just sort of part of, you know,
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of the All Black way of doing things.
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So, um, and I would say that's been
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going on since the All Black started. I
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don't think this is anything new,
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man. I'm so excited to have you here.
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There's so much to talk about. Um, yeah,
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I mean, you you're just a man that's
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seen and done at all when it comes to
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rugby. Do do you have any memorabilia at
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home? Like, have you got a pork room, a
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games room? I have a games room, but
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there's um there's a few photographs up
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on it that we've collected over the
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years that um a lot of them would say
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montages of the all black 87 team that
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people did and that was commercial
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stuff, but as part of that negotiation
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that Robin did, all the players got one.
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I've got one from Oakland in the Oakland
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Ran Fully Shield era. Um and some other
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um you know, other bits and pieces. Um
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I've got I've got jerseys of every team
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I played against. Um I'm not allowed to
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put them up. Maybe one day, but I've
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I've still got them. They're tucked
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away. Not allowed. No, no. my wife
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didn't well they they'd fill up a fair
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bit of a wall but um I tell you what
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though there's one particular cuz I'm
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not sure anyone else um would have the
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set because some of these teams don't
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exist anymore but I have a set of uh of
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New Zealand representative jerseys that
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go New Zealand school boys um New
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Zealand Colts New Zealand juniors um New
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Zealand universities and the New Zealand
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All Blacks. Um not sure I'm not sure the
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varsity team plays anymore. Um, we have
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an under 20's team, so we don't have an
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under 21 and under 23 team, which was
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Colts and juniors. So, that's a
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particular set I'm I'm immensely proud
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of. What does life look like these days
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for Grant Fox? Um, I am still working.
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Um, I run a business called Monster
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Vision. Won't go into the detail, but
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it's um we're deeply involved in in in
00:10:29
sport in this country. Um, you know, a
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little bit of community um you know,
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council work, concert work. Um, and you
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know, I'm a father and grandfather um
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with um, you know, apart from Ryan who's
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probably more, you know, more widely
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known. We have a a younger we have a
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daughter who's younger than Ryan who
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lives just down the road from us with
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three littleies. It's just a great joy.
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So that's, you know, life and I try and
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be at home on the weekends, work Monday
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to Friday. Um, not too hard and um, try
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and get a game of golf in if I can. And
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you go, I play off about five now, I
00:11:00
think. But I haven't played in ages cuz
00:11:02
I had a I've had um I got a niggly knee
00:11:04
and I've just had carpal tunnel surgery.
00:11:05
So I'm falling apart and I've just heard
00:11:08
a rotator cuff. So yeah, life's age
00:11:10
catching up, Dom. Um and I I'm very keen
00:11:13
to get back cuz I enjoy golf for the
00:11:14
social aspect and the competitive to be
00:11:16
honest because a handicap system allows
00:11:18
you to play against people with
00:11:19
different abilities and you can have a
00:11:20
game cuz golf's unique like that. I
00:11:22
don't know any other game where I can
00:11:24
play against someone who's way better or
00:11:25
way worse and at the end of it we could
00:11:27
be all square based on the handicap
00:11:28
system. So it's who's really buying the
00:11:30
beers at the end of the day we play for.
00:11:31
So yeah, it it is fair but you still
00:11:33
know deep down you're getting your ass
00:11:35
kicked by a better player. Oh yeah.
00:11:37
Yeah. But but the golfers understand the
00:11:40
golfers understand how many shots have I
00:11:42
got on this cuz always how how many have
00:11:44
I given you today? You I've got to make
00:11:46
six up before on the next guy. And so
00:11:48
you you consciously know what's going on
00:11:50
because the competitive instinct doesn't
00:11:51
leave you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you still
00:11:54
because I I had your son Ryan on the
00:11:56
podcast a couple of years ago and we we
00:11:57
talked about you and your relationship
00:12:00
with him in quite great detail and he
00:12:02
told a story about the first time that
00:12:04
he beat you in golf and and he said you
00:12:07
didn't talk to him for like a couple of
00:12:08
days afterwards. Yeah, I can't remember
00:12:09
exactly. It happened. There's no doubt
00:12:11
it happened and it probably when he was
00:12:12
about 15 and it would have been the last
00:12:14
time I got near him. Um, and look, I I I
00:12:18
still have a competitive uh fire, but
00:12:21
it's dullled with age, right? Because
00:12:23
I', it's a reality is, and particularly
00:12:25
when it comes to golf, um, or any other,
00:12:27
you know, be it tennis or thing, which I
00:12:29
don't play nowadays, got a bugged wrist,
00:12:30
but um, it's just um, I can't hit the
00:12:33
ball as far, so I can't be as
00:12:35
competitive, right? And you just got to
00:12:36
come to a realization that I can't do
00:12:38
what I used to do, except the aging
00:12:40
process. the handicap system will take
00:12:42
care of that because it'll keep going
00:12:43
out and I can still have a game against
00:12:45
him. You know what? If I play with him
00:12:46
now, which is very rare, I mean, he's
00:12:48
going to give me at least 10 shots.
00:12:50
Maybe probably No, I wish it was nine, I
00:12:53
might beat him, but um no, but but you
00:12:55
know, he's got to play off about a plus
00:12:57
eight and you know, he'll give me five
00:12:59
or six shots. So, what is that 13 or 14?
00:13:01
So, yeah, it's surreal really from a a
00:13:04
Kiwi perspective. like you I mean you're
00:13:06
too close to it to probably see this but
00:13:08
you know one of the great All Blacks of
00:13:09
all time has a son and the son's now
00:13:11
like in the top 100 or top 50 or
00:13:13
whatever of world golf rankings like
00:13:15
it's it's crazy. So his entire life he
00:13:17
was probably played with the I don't
00:13:19
know if stigma is the word of being
00:13:21
Grant Fox's son and now you're Ryan
00:13:23
Fox's dad. It's quite something quite
00:13:25
poetic about it. Well I mean that's nice
00:13:27
of you to say. I mean I I I mean I
00:13:29
stopped playing rugby when Ryan was six,
00:13:30
right? I was 31 which is young to retire
00:13:32
but I was run it was amid days. I was
00:13:34
running a business and had a young
00:13:36
family and I wanted to be there when
00:13:37
Ryan started. Um because I think you
00:13:39
know um one of the most important things
00:13:41
being a parent is showing up, right? You
00:13:43
got to I mean how do you spell love to
00:13:45
your kids? T I M E. And um so someone
00:13:48
said that to me a long long time ago. My
00:13:50
parents um you know did that with us
00:13:52
growing up on a farm. They were always
00:13:54
took us to sport all the time engaged in
00:13:56
coaching our teams you know. Um, Adele's
00:13:59
parents were the same with, you know,
00:14:01
um, with with, um, Adele and her brother
00:14:03
Greg. So, um, I understand that mindset
00:14:06
and I think it's critically important.
00:14:08
So, for me, retiring for a number of
00:14:11
reasons, but family was was a critical
00:14:12
one to spend time and all you wanted Ry
00:14:15
Ryan probably he he didn't know at that
00:14:17
time. It wasn't until later on when he
00:14:19
started playing at a higher level like
00:14:21
first 15 rugby or first 11 cricket that
00:14:23
there was perhaps a link um that they
00:14:26
said well this is you know this is
00:14:28
bloody Grant Fox's boy now I'm his dad
00:14:31
so that that's completely flipped on its
00:14:33
head which I I like because it means
00:14:34
he's carved carved his own career but
00:14:36
all he did was just you know he chased a
00:14:39
dream you know that's all he did and he
00:14:41
was lucky that um you know at the end of
00:14:42
the day he's achieved that dream because
00:14:44
not everyone gets to do it but I think
00:14:45
setting yourself a goal and striving to
00:14:47
achieve something's really important.
00:14:49
Um, and you know, he he's been able to
00:14:51
do it on a pretty big stage, which is,
00:14:53
you know, which I'm I'm so pleased for
00:14:54
him because I know cuz having played
00:14:57
sport in elite level myself, I know the
00:14:59
work involved, you know, and all the
00:15:00
pressures associated. And Ryan's been
00:15:02
able to deal with all of that um, and
00:15:04
still get to the point he's got to um,
00:15:06
you know, rewarding for him and his
00:15:08
family, but also, you know, for Adele
00:15:09
and I. M are there when you watch him
00:15:12
play like on on TV or in in real life
00:15:14
like are there um parts of you that you
00:15:17
can see in him like if he the way he
00:15:18
acts after he's had a bad shot or
00:15:21
mannerisms and things like that? Oh look
00:15:23
I I can see more of I mean Ry Ryan and I
00:15:28
think in temperament is more like Adele
00:15:29
than me outwardly. I think inwardly he's
00:15:32
more like me. He's just pretty more he's
00:15:34
he's better at hiding it than I am. Um,
00:15:37
so I know deep down he has a fierce
00:15:40
competitive desire. Um, you know, he
00:15:42
wants he wants to do well. Um, doesn't
00:15:45
always happen. Um, I think he's um, and
00:15:49
look, he at times he struggled to deal
00:15:52
with what I'd call frustration from not
00:15:54
getting out of it what he wants, which
00:15:56
is not matching the work he's put in.
00:15:58
Been there, done that, understand that.
00:16:00
Not easy. Um, you know, that's just that
00:16:02
is a hard thing to work your way
00:16:03
through. But, you know, I I think um you
00:16:07
my wife was um a good tennis player. Um
00:16:10
you know, grew up in a sporty family. Um
00:16:12
played hockey at school. Um so, Adele
00:16:16
understands the sporting environment,
00:16:18
having a dad away a lot. Um a dad
00:16:20
involved. Um so, you know, there's a
00:16:23
blend of everything in there that I can
00:16:24
see in Ryan. Yeah. Um should we go back
00:16:28
to the early years? Yep. Okay. So,
00:16:30
you're from um a farm in Tatanaki. uh
00:16:33
born in New Plymouth but but left when
00:16:35
when I was two to um um a Wetto just
00:16:40
outside of Pataradoo. Yeah. Out of Patu.
00:16:43
So a little place called Tiotu which was
00:16:45
Tiotu was um a school in a garage.
00:16:47
That's all it was. Wow. Oh like a tiny
00:16:50
rural school. A tiny rural school and a
00:16:52
garage. That's all it was. So there
00:16:54
wasn't even the first 15. Not enough
00:16:55
kids. No. No. So there wasn't even a
00:16:57
local school there as such that we all
00:16:59
went. There was four primary schools in
00:17:01
PU at the time and I went to one of
00:17:03
those schools and and um this is where
00:17:06
you you built some like makeshift my
00:17:08
father did. Yeah. So I mean I think that
00:17:11
came out of um well my father played
00:17:13
rugby um you know for um Okado where in
00:17:16
the Tanaki and also for Taro Athletic
00:17:18
when we moved to Peteru and you know he
00:17:19
was a South Wata rep so I was sort of
00:17:21
what you call a minor minor union rep.
00:17:23
He was a fullback goal kicker in the old
00:17:25
torpedo life flat style kick with your
00:17:27
toe. Um, so you know, we'd been around a
00:17:29
rugby environment, you know, as little
00:17:32
club rooms after games, all that sort of
00:17:33
stuff. So we were very familiar with,
00:17:35
you know, that's what you did in rural
00:17:36
communities. That's how you how people
00:17:38
put at the tennis club up the road, the
00:17:39
cricket club. My mother played net ball.
00:17:42
So that was all just part of, you know,
00:17:44
the upbringing. Um, but I love kicking a
00:17:47
rubby ball. Always was fascinated by
00:17:49
that. Although we had a soccer ball, I'd
00:17:51
kick it around. And I used to build um
00:17:53
and put on the front lawn two battens
00:17:56
and a bit of 31 a little goalpost and
00:17:57
that's what I'd practice kicking when I
00:17:59
was very young. Um but I think probably
00:18:01
some as I got older and maybe too many
00:18:03
broken windows. The old man decided that
00:18:05
he'd get a couple of big 18t panelized
00:18:07
bloody posts. Um it might have been
00:18:09
taller than that with a with a um uh a
00:18:12
galvanized bloody pipe crossbar. Put it
00:18:14
in the front paddic. Well, there you go.
00:18:15
You won't broke won't break any windows
00:18:17
down here and I had a lot more room. So
00:18:19
that so he built those. And they were
00:18:21
put in the front paddic. Parallels with
00:18:23
you and Dan Carter in that, eh? They had
00:18:25
a paddic out the front with a goal post
00:18:26
in and Yeah. Yeah. was kicking until
00:18:28
dark. Were you one of three three two
00:18:31
younger brothers? Yeah. [ __ ] And Yeah.
00:18:34
Because um me and my brother, we used to
00:18:35
we lived in a residential house in
00:18:37
Palmer North. We played cricket on the
00:18:38
driveway all the time. Glass used to be
00:18:40
so thin. We used to always have a
00:18:42
smashed window in the house. Yeah. No
00:18:44
double glazing either. Not in those
00:18:45
days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I
00:18:48
like I used to really enjoy playing
00:18:49
tennis. played cricket as well, but we
00:18:50
had a big we had a brick house. One of
00:18:52
the walls on the on the as the concrete
00:18:54
driveway came around to where the garage
00:18:56
was a big concrete area. One of the
00:18:58
walls was no windows completely brick.
00:19:00
So that was that was my bloody, you
00:19:01
know, my back wall buddy hidden. I think
00:19:03
used to drive cuz the kitchen was in
00:19:05
behind that. I used to drive my mother
00:19:06
mad. She was trying to cook in the
00:19:07
kitchen. I'm pounding this bloody tennis
00:19:09
ball with a tennis rack or a pad of
00:19:10
tennis bat. But, you know, we just grew
00:19:12
up in that environment, you know. Um um
00:19:14
sport was always a big part of of of you
00:19:17
know, what our family did. So your
00:19:19
parents just send you outside and play
00:19:21
until it's dark and then you come in for
00:19:22
dinner time. Yeah. I mean we had 300
00:19:24
acres to run around on too. So you know
00:19:25
we had motorbikes and Land Rovers and
00:19:27
you know so and at a very young age we
00:19:29
were you know we were we were taught to
00:19:31
drive machinery. Um you know I can
00:19:34
remember my younger brother and I we got
00:19:37
to a stage and I was still at primary
00:19:39
school but I include the intermediate
00:19:41
years cuz that's what it was in those
00:19:42
days. I mean we put a whole paddic of
00:19:44
hay in by ourselves. mowed it, turned
00:19:46
it, bailed it, had some help picking it
00:19:49
up. But he let, you know, a 12-year-old
00:19:51
and a and an 11 year old go and do that
00:19:53
because we would that's what, you know,
00:19:55
God farm kids, farm and kids and
00:19:58
occupational self safety and health
00:20:00
might have a problem with that nowadays,
00:20:02
you know, I was driving a Land Rover at
00:20:03
seven. I mean, that's just what we did
00:20:05
in those days. And I was lucky enough
00:20:06
with, you know, the upbringing was, you
00:20:09
know, um, teach and give responsibility
00:20:11
and let you make mistakes. Don't women
00:20:13
cuddle you and say don't do that, don't
00:20:15
do that. You actually had to learn by
00:20:16
making your own mistakes. Long as it
00:20:18
wasn't going to injure yourself too much
00:20:20
or injure something else or break too
00:20:21
many things or crash Land Rovers or
00:20:24
whatever. That's the that's the
00:20:25
environment we were brought up in. Some
00:20:27
sometimes an injury is a good lesson.
00:20:29
Yes. So So when when you were a kid in
00:20:32
um in the the Wetto Paddock kicking the
00:20:34
ball, who were you who were you
00:20:35
pretending to be? Strange. Well, so when
00:20:38
I when I before the goalpost came up, um
00:20:41
Brian Williams was my idol, which didn't
00:20:43
didn't marry me match with me, I should
00:20:46
say, because, you know, small little
00:20:47
skinny white kid and Beg this big big
00:20:50
big big thigh Polyn.
00:20:53
Yeah. Yeah. Who was, you know, a number
00:20:55
of years older than me, but I just
00:20:56
remember watching him in 1970 and, you
00:20:59
know, on the TV plant in South Africa
00:21:01
just resonated. So, um, BG was, you
00:21:03
know, BG was my hero. And so, you know,
00:21:06
um, um, black pants and a black rugby
00:21:08
jersey that that, you know, we had at
00:21:10
home and got one of my mother's sheets
00:21:11
and cut it up and asked her to put a
00:21:13
number, whatever number BG was at the
00:21:14
time. It varied a little bit, but 13 was
00:21:16
one I seem to remember. And so, that's
00:21:18
you you'd run around, I'd get two of the
00:21:20
neighbors kids over. So, we play two on
00:21:21
two in the front paddic in the pouring
00:21:23
rain and mud everywhere. Um but but from
00:21:26
a goal kicking point of view, the real
00:21:28
thing that resonated with me was Barry
00:21:29
John from the 71 Lions because I was at
00:21:33
a very young age, you know, trying to
00:21:34
tow hack in bare feet, which wasn't good
00:21:36
for a young kid in the cold white cattle
00:21:38
winters. Um and I saw this guy kicking
00:21:41
very well using his instep round the
00:21:43
corner and my first thought was that
00:21:44
that won't hurt my hurt my toes. So
00:21:46
that's when I adopted it and and um
00:21:49
because my father was a goal kicker,
00:21:51
there was some encouragement there. Um,
00:21:52
and as I said, I just, you know, I just
00:21:54
like I like kicking a rabial. It didn't
00:21:56
have to be just goal kicking, but that's
00:21:58
where the sort of my first memories of
00:22:00
round the corner. Um, like, okay,
00:22:04
that'll work. Um, and then just, you
00:22:06
know, kept working hard from there. And
00:22:08
by the time you got to secondary school
00:22:10
age, were you were you really really
00:22:11
good? Is that why you were sent to
00:22:12
Oakland Grammar or? No, no, not not the
00:22:14
reason sent to grammar at all. I mean,
00:22:15
I'd played um um in in subun stuff and
00:22:19
also the the roll of Mills, which sadly
00:22:20
doesn't exist anymore. I played for
00:22:22
white cattle rangers. Um so selected
00:22:24
that was sort of the first taste of you
00:22:26
know representative football though it
00:22:27
was gi form too in those days. Um but
00:22:30
the local high school was Petarian Wayne
00:22:32
Smith had been there um a guy called
00:22:34
Benny Savage was there too. He was
00:22:35
another 58 who was in the first 58 in
00:22:37
the first New Zealand schools team in
00:22:39
1978. Benny Savage was a was the first
00:22:42
5'8. So um it was just an interesting
00:22:44
bit of um history that um Smithy, Benny,
00:22:47
Benny unfortunately didn't go on but you
00:22:49
know out of
00:22:51
came these three guys who played you
00:22:52
know 5'8 reasonably well um but my
00:22:55
parents just believed in education so um
00:22:57
I don't know the story properly but John
00:22:59
Graham was a headmaster um you know one
00:23:02
of Bob's older brother Jim lived in
00:23:05
Lichfield which was close by and my
00:23:06
parents knew them so maybe there was
00:23:08
some contact there. I'm summising here
00:23:09
cuz I actually haven't ever discussed
00:23:10
the story but got accepted into grand
00:23:12
grammar that my parents applied and I
00:23:14
went to Tib's house as a border and um
00:23:17
just part of the way you immerse
00:23:19
yourself in a school of what was 1,200
00:23:21
in those days when I arrived as a farm
00:23:23
kid I knew one person that's all I mean
00:23:25
I was just I I was lonely uh out of my
00:23:29
depth um hated it um I remember going
00:23:33
home for the first holiday at Easter
00:23:35
that year so this is 1976 and I got
00:23:38
home. Um, so on the Gibson Motors bus,
00:23:40
get out of the railway station, get on
00:23:42
the bus, go down to Para, get picked up,
00:23:43
get taken home. I went and got on the
00:23:45
motorbike and drove to the top of the
00:23:46
hill where the wool shed was and just
00:23:47
listen to the silence and bulled my eyes
00:23:49
out cuz I did not want to go back at
00:23:52
all. But, you know, that wasn't an
00:23:53
option and um, obviously it was the
00:23:56
right decision. Um, what was it just
00:23:58
like homesickness? Yeah, because I was I
00:24:00
was a farm kid. Got brought up in a
00:24:02
little community. So, you go into an
00:24:04
environment where you know there was 60
00:24:06
I think there was 60 borders in those. I
00:24:08
didn't know any of them, so I had to get
00:24:09
to know them. You know, there's a little
00:24:10
bit of Tom Brown School Days to some
00:24:12
degree. Minor stuff compared to what
00:24:14
you'd read in the book, but it was still
00:24:15
a little Oh, just Yeah. a little bit of
00:24:16
bullying in that as you know, if you
00:24:18
read Tom Brown School Days, remember
00:24:20
what that was like? Um, it was a story
00:24:22
about that. And so, there was a little
00:24:24
bit of that hierarchical, you know, turd
00:24:27
former. Yeah. Turd formers and all that
00:24:28
sort of stuff. So, not not overtly bad,
00:24:30
but a bit foreign. Um, so your boarding
00:24:34
school was I was talking to my
00:24:35
brother-in-law about this the other day.
00:24:36
He went to St. pans silver stream in in
00:24:38
the 90s and uh he's a he's a sleep
00:24:41
talker. He got caned once for for
00:24:43
talking after lights out. Yeah. I mean
00:24:44
Yeah. I mean we had corporal punishment
00:24:46
in those days. I got caned once at
00:24:47
school cuz I asked for it instead of
00:24:49
detention so I could go to rugby
00:24:50
practice. Um it hurt too. Um so but but
00:24:55
you know that choice and was all about
00:24:56
education. The sport thing wasn't part
00:24:58
of my parents um thought process. I'm
00:25:00
pretty sure about that. But also, you
00:25:02
know, though great believers in
00:25:04
leadership like I am and you know, Sir
00:25:05
John Graham was a headmaster, revered,
00:25:07
great leader. Um, you know, Grammar had
00:25:10
a great reputation. That was that was
00:25:11
the place to go. Yeah, you had some
00:25:13
great role models there. Um, Sir Graham
00:25:15
Henry, he was your coach for a time
00:25:17
there. Um, my old recctor from Palmer
00:25:19
Boys High. Yeah, Simsy was there. So,
00:25:21
Simsy coached the first 11 I played in.
00:25:23
Yeah. Mark Greatbatch, he was in Yeah,
00:25:25
Patty was a year behind me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:27
And so, I played first 11 cricket with
00:25:29
him, too. Yep. Incredible. God, he's one
00:25:31
of my favorite fielders. This seems like
00:25:33
a lame thing to say, but I loved
00:25:34
watching him feel. Oh, yeah. No, he
00:25:35
could play bi. Yeah. Yeah. And he's
00:25:37
competitive, too. Like he, you know, I'm
00:25:39
pretty sure he played a year of first
00:25:41
team rugby. I think the year I was in
00:25:43
the my last year he might have played
00:25:45
second 15 rugby. He was, as I said, a
00:25:46
year behind. He was a fiercely
00:25:48
competitive man, too. Yeah. And and
00:25:50
Martin Cro, you you guys were when did
00:25:51
you guys meet? Beginning of 1976, right?
00:25:54
Beginning of the school year. Um, two
00:25:55
guys who didn't know each other sit sat
00:25:57
on a pew in the assembly hall and got
00:25:59
talking.
00:26:01
and we just had a um we just found a
00:26:04
common bond. Um I'm going to get
00:26:06
emotional talking about him because I
00:26:07
always do. Um but um we just developed a
00:26:10
great friendship and but it was a
00:26:12
friendship based on a more of a mutual
00:26:14
interest in in sport. Um you know he was
00:26:17
obviously known as a cricketer but he
00:26:19
was talented at so many other sports and
00:26:21
I was the guy that was eventually going
00:26:23
to forge you know a career as a rugby
00:26:25
player. Um, so it just developed a great
00:26:28
friendship that didn't that didn't last
00:26:30
long enough because sadly he died at age
00:26:32
53.
00:26:34
Yeah. You you've you've done very few
00:26:36
podcasts, but um you I've heard whenever
00:26:38
um the late Martin Craig gets born up,
00:26:40
you do get emotional. Have you have you
00:26:42
always been an emotional guy? You find
00:26:44
this is happening with age? Um more with
00:26:45
age, I think. You know, some sometimes
00:26:48
it doesn't doesn't take much to see,
00:26:50
what am I got? What have I got to tear
00:26:51
for? you know, or I'm talking about
00:26:53
something and all a sudden just catch me
00:26:54
like it does with Marty. It something
00:26:56
just it just catches me. I don't it
00:26:58
doesn't feel like it's there and then
00:27:00
something just triggered and catches me.
00:27:02
So, I'm probably a bit more emotional
00:27:03
than um I give, you know, I'd like to
00:27:06
think I'm I'm relatively level, but I
00:27:08
just get caught occasionally and Marty's
00:27:10
one who catches it just catches me all
00:27:11
the time.
00:27:13
I I I think it's I'm probably projecting
00:27:15
here, but like when from my perspective
00:27:17
when I die, like my my biggest fear
00:27:18
would probably be there's there's the
00:27:20
FOMO thing of what you're going to miss
00:27:21
out on, but also you don't want to be
00:27:22
forgotten. And so the fact that you
00:27:24
reflect on this friend of yours and you
00:27:26
get emotional like a decade or whatever
00:27:28
it is after his death. Um speaks a lot
00:27:31
about him and the and what he meant to
00:27:34
you, which I think is so cool. Yeah.
00:27:36
Yeah. I mean, he was um a very special
00:27:38
man. um very talented man, a very um
00:27:41
emotional man who works hard on his
00:27:42
sleeve and at times it got him in
00:27:43
trouble too, you know, and the world we
00:27:45
live in nowadays, it's like you you say
00:27:47
one thing that is authentic and think
00:27:49
that someone will take it the wrong way
00:27:50
and the way the whole media thing works
00:27:52
nowadays, it doesn't take much for much
00:27:54
of a pile on. And I think sometimes
00:27:56
people get remembered more fondly and
00:27:59
and more for their greatness when when
00:28:01
they're not here. And that's the sad
00:28:03
thing because it took Marty to pass in
00:28:06
some ways for people to really
00:28:07
understand his greatness. I think he was
00:28:09
given enough credit but not quite
00:28:10
enough. It wasn't until he was what here
00:28:12
here and you could reflect. Um I mean I
00:28:16
remember a few things. I won't be
00:28:19
longwinded here but um you know it's a
00:28:21
long podcast. You can be as long as at
00:28:24
Marty's funeral service you know um and
00:28:28
well planned out in advance because he
00:28:29
knew it was going to happen. So you know
00:28:30
his favorite color was orange. So the
00:28:32
coffin was orange and all of this sort
00:28:33
of stuff. But um when you we first
00:28:36
arrived and sat in there playing on a
00:28:38
screen was his his hundred at Lords his
00:28:40
last 100 in test match rugby which
00:28:42
happened to Lords and that's when his
00:28:44
knee was gam um and Lords was hallowed
00:28:47
turf for him just the majesty of this
00:28:50
man batting is just was amazing.
00:28:54
And um Jeff his brother stood up and
00:28:58
started capping. the whole service stood
00:29:00
and started clapping cuz this man was a
00:29:03
genius. Um, and one other, you know, we
00:29:07
were brash school boys and when we
00:29:08
finished school we had a little bet and
00:29:09
I think that's documented um about who
00:29:12
who would play the most test matches for
00:29:14
their country and their chosen sport.
00:29:15
So, they're just brash, arrogant school
00:29:17
boys. Um, you know, Marty won that
00:29:20
battle um obviously cuz he he played 76
00:29:23
tests I think and I played um 46 or
00:29:26
thereabouts. You've probably got the
00:29:27
number. I won't have the number exactly
00:29:28
right, but um but when Marty um retired
00:29:32
and he he was putting a book out um um I
00:29:36
took a a signed all black jersey, my
00:29:39
jersey to him cuz that was sort of like
00:29:40
well you won buddy and he returned um a
00:29:44
pencil drawing of Lords that says to
00:29:47
Foxy we both won. Pretty special.
00:29:51
Where is that? In the games room on the
00:29:54
wall.
00:29:57
Well, you made the New Zealand Hall of
00:29:59
Fame in 99 and he was two years behind
00:30:01
you. So, that's a win for Foxy. Yeah.
00:30:03
Yeah. Well, we both won, as you said. We
00:30:05
both won. Were you um Yeah. As as school
00:30:08
boys, you seem like very different
00:30:10
personality types as in that you you
00:30:12
know, you you were kind of stoic. He was
00:30:14
more sort of like vulnerable, heart on
00:30:15
your sleeve type of person. Did you you
00:30:19
you clash or as school boys? No. No, we
00:30:21
didn't. Um look, I stated um his place a
00:30:23
lot. You know, we we got each term
00:30:25
there, three term years, we got three
00:30:28
three weekends out. Most of those
00:30:30
weekends I'd go to his place or another
00:30:32
another good friend called David Maroy.
00:30:34
And you know, we Marty and I always was
00:30:36
involved in something. We used to play
00:30:37
cricket um with dice using and score
00:30:41
through cuz it just Marty Marty had a
00:30:43
game that you threw numbers and how you
00:30:45
get wickets and how you score fours and
00:30:46
sixes. We would play this. That's how we
00:30:49
we did with dice, two dice and do it or
00:30:52
we'd play cricket in the hallway with a
00:30:54
little miniature bat and a and a squash
00:30:56
ball so we didn't break anything. And we
00:30:58
were always up to something like that.
00:31:00
Um you know at school together we we
00:31:02
entered the the the tennis champs at
00:31:05
school, the doubles champs, the juniors
00:31:07
and the seniors and you know made the
00:31:09
finals of both of them um you know in
00:31:11
our sort of fourth form year and our
00:31:13
seventh form year. So that was just we
00:31:14
were fiercely competitive and that's how
00:31:16
talented he was.
00:31:17
um you know to the to the point I mean I
00:31:20
still remember this really vividly um
00:31:23
and I played was lucky enough to play
00:31:25
one term in the first 11 while Marty was
00:31:27
still it's the first time I was seventh
00:31:28
form year um and I had throwdowns with
00:31:32
Marty um every Friday became a ritual
00:31:34
get to the nets have throwdowns so three
00:31:36
weekends in a row when we did this
00:31:38
little ritual one day he got 140 odd
00:31:43
um and then the next week got five
00:31:45
wickets and then the following Saturday
00:31:47
got 240 odd like this this was the
00:31:49
genius of this man and and I had a I had
00:31:51
a front row seat um just so talented um
00:31:56
you know then we played a bit of golf in
00:31:57
the se form together and stuff like that
00:31:59
so we just you know we we we we hung out
00:32:02
together I went to his first time he
00:32:04
played for
00:32:06
um I think he was playing for Oakland
00:32:08
and my memory fails me a bit here big
00:32:10
one day game when the West Indies were
00:32:11
here it actually could have been New
00:32:12
Zealand I'm not sure um and sadly that
00:32:16
day he got duck cuz I was just getting
00:32:17
into my seat and I missed it. But I
00:32:19
didn't Yeah, that all happens. The best
00:32:22
of us um don't always get what we want.
00:32:25
But yeah, so I mean there's lot I'm
00:32:26
getting a bit I'm rambling a bit now,
00:32:28
but there are just so many good
00:32:29
memories. The saddest one of all for me
00:32:31
is a bit at the end because you know we
00:32:33
talked about playing a lot more golf
00:32:34
together. Um drinking red wine together,
00:32:37
just socializing, you know, and he had
00:32:39
found real he'd found his his soulmate
00:32:42
in Lraine. They just didn't get enough
00:32:43
time together. Um very very sad. um
00:32:46
where where you know Marty is
00:32:48
um as I said he was emotional and you
00:32:50
know at times is a bit of a tormented
00:32:52
soul but that was his also if you people
00:32:55
who are geniuses often have these sort
00:32:57
of characteristics I reckon and that's
00:32:59
just Marty was and just when he found
00:33:01
some real peace and happiness he gets
00:33:04
cancer and doesn't doesn't live long
00:33:06
enough it's not fair I I feel like he
00:33:08
was sort of a man before his time you
00:33:10
know like he he was sort of
00:33:11
misunderstood by the New Zealand public
00:33:12
there's even a chapter the book that you
00:33:14
wrote the forward too raw, which I
00:33:16
flicked through the other day. Like
00:33:17
there's a chapter in there where he even
00:33:18
addresses um like rumors or innuendo
00:33:22
about him being like gay, which is so
00:33:25
perfect. It was like the you know, yeah,
00:33:27
that's because because he and Jeff had a
00:33:28
manager who was gay, right? So people
00:33:30
draw a long bow here. I mean, I know he
00:33:32
wasn't gay. So um and to be honest, it
00:33:35
wouldn't have mattered if he was. Who
00:33:36
cares? Yeah. Um that's what he says in
00:33:38
the book. Yeah. Who cares? No one else's
00:33:40
business. Um but that's where that line.
00:33:42
But that was you know that I mean it's
00:33:45
just I guess to some point as time
00:33:49
passes and you know different parts of
00:33:52
society evolve and develop or whatever
00:33:54
and sometimes not for the better you
00:33:56
know and if I look at the media nowadays
00:33:58
in terms of how things are done there's
00:34:00
a lot more opinion stuff and a lot more
00:34:01
platforms than there is actually hard
00:34:03
fact and when in the old days didn't
00:34:05
have any choice because technology
00:34:07
didn't allow all this stuff so you had
00:34:09
to deal more or less in in hard facts
00:34:11
and opinion was less part of
00:34:13
But I guess there was less competition
00:34:14
in those days compared to what there is
00:34:16
now too. So I mean it is what it is. But
00:34:18
we've also tal just got to take things
00:34:20
with a grain of salt because just
00:34:22
because there's something in the media
00:34:23
does it mean it's true? No it doesn't. I
00:34:26
think that's what the level of mistrust
00:34:27
in mainstream media has never been
00:34:29
higher than what it is now you know
00:34:31
people you read something and you're
00:34:32
like is this true or not? Yeah. And and
00:34:35
I'm you know I don't I don't to be
00:34:37
honest consume a lot of mainstream
00:34:38
media. I don't consume a lot of media
00:34:39
nowadays cuz at times it can just make
00:34:42
you you read it and go oh god really. So
00:34:44
you better just I got better things to
00:34:45
do than get worked up about that sort of
00:34:47
stuff. So best to avoid it. Yeah. A
00:34:50
couple couple more on um your your
00:34:52
friend Martin Craig before we move on.
00:34:53
So um that that bet you made in the the
00:34:55
final year of school. Were you both sort
00:34:58
of like hot ticket guys at that at that
00:35:00
point as in were you both on the radar
00:35:02
for like national I mean I played for
00:35:04
New Zealand schools that year.
00:35:06
and I'm not sure I don't think they had
00:35:07
a New Zealand schools cricket team. They
00:35:09
may have, but it was just very clear
00:35:11
about Marty's talent. He was already
00:35:12
playing for Aland as a school boy. You
00:35:15
know, he got picked straight, you know,
00:35:16
pretty quickly out of school for um for
00:35:19
New Zealand. So, it his his talent was
00:35:22
obvious, right? It was he was always
00:35:24
destined to get to where, you know, he
00:35:27
got to. And I mean, in a funny way, were
00:35:28
you as well? Not necessarily. You went a
00:35:32
I don't reckon I was. I mean, I I was um
00:35:34
I was driven like Marty. Um I think it
00:35:37
was clear Marty always had an X factor
00:35:39
of talent. I don't re I had an X act of
00:35:40
talent. I had a good hand eye
00:35:42
coordination and um perhaps you know a
00:35:45
reasonable brain from a tactical point
00:35:47
of view. But you know I wasn't a very
00:35:49
big kid. I had to work hard and I was
00:35:50
happy to work hard. um and you know got
00:35:52
lucky enough to be associated with
00:35:55
Graeme Henry at school and then for
00:35:56
university um initially and then you
00:35:59
know John Hartz led me for Aland and I
00:36:01
won't won't litigate the rest of it but
00:36:03
um you know lucky to play you know be
00:36:06
coached by him at at a young age um but
00:36:08
also playing good teams you know you're
00:36:11
more likely to get promoted if you're
00:36:12
playing in good teams that that win and
00:36:14
win championships it's just it's just
00:36:17
easier and I'm not saying it should be
00:36:19
that way it's just a fact of life so you
00:36:21
you get noticed a little bit more, get a
00:36:22
bit more bit get a bit more coverage and
00:36:24
therefore come to you know the people's
00:36:26
attention a little bit more. Um nowadays
00:36:29
there's a lot more technology around
00:36:30
this. So you you've possibly got a
00:36:32
better chance cuz the coaches can dive
00:36:34
into all a whole and all this all the
00:36:37
analytics now that we didn't have when I
00:36:39
was playing. VHS was how they did it.
00:36:41
Yeah. And um you just about and chopped
00:36:44
Martin's finger off when I did. I did
00:36:46
know about this. I did. Yeah. No, we
00:36:49
were my my parents would were in Kiwi
00:36:51
fruit by this stage of many kiwi for a
00:36:53
long time at school and I used to go
00:36:55
down and spend the summers down there.
00:36:57
Um and Marty I remember Marty came down
00:36:59
for a a few days with us. Um and we were
00:37:02
working on the orchard printing shelter
00:37:03
belts with a and I was on the chainsaw
00:37:05
standing on the back deck of of our ute
00:37:07
and you know Marty was sort of pointing
00:37:09
out this one is saying which oh [ __ ]
00:37:12
took a chunk took a chunk out of his
00:37:15
finger. Um, you know, just the blade did
00:37:18
not a little not not a lot of damage. It
00:37:20
just took a leak nick out of it. Very
00:37:22
lucky. But yeah, very lucky. But then I
00:37:25
reckon after that he could swing the
00:37:26
ball more because his finger was a bit
00:37:27
deformed. You did him a favor. I did him
00:37:29
a favor. Can you remember the last
00:37:31
conversation you had? Um, when you do
00:37:33
the forward to his book, Raw, you talk
00:37:35
about how you'd had some like long phone
00:37:37
conversations. So, he was still around
00:37:38
then. Yeah. For hours at a time. Yeah.
00:37:41
The last one. No, I don't. I mean my
00:37:43
memory doesn't work very well like that
00:37:44
to be honest but I do remember you know
00:37:47
um um just time I mean I have one vivid
00:37:51
memory of an afternoon spent at his
00:37:53
place when Keith Quinn was there um cuz
00:37:56
he was a good friend of Keith Quinn as
00:37:57
you know the rugby commentator lovely
00:38:00
man Quinny um and we just you know um I
00:38:03
don't know we just sat in the backyard
00:38:04
and we drunk red wine and we ate and we
00:38:07
laughed and
00:38:09
you know um I was one of the lucky ones
00:38:11
that was sort of included um and you
00:38:14
know as Marty was getting ill to be able
00:38:16
to you know just um ring up mate you
00:38:20
okay can I come and see you um cuz it
00:38:23
you know he to it was hard to let
00:38:26
everyone in you know it was going to be
00:38:28
impossible cuz there was just so many so
00:38:30
for his own well-being he had to
00:38:32
restrict that and so as a guy called
00:38:34
Dave Morris who was the head boy um in
00:38:36
1980 and Marty was the deputy head boy
00:38:39
they were very close as as I was close
00:38:41
to to Marty and and Dave and I have we
00:38:43
still connect Dave and I quite a lot. Um
00:38:45
so we were a couple of the lucky ones
00:38:47
who Marty led in and it was a it was as
00:38:49
sad as it was it was a privilege you
00:38:51
know to go through that journey with him
00:38:54
and I still remember exactly where I was
00:38:56
when Dave rung me and said he's gone
00:39:00
you know it's like he'd gone in for
00:39:02
resppite and I just thought okay it's
00:39:03
resppite care um and into into hospice.
00:39:07
I just thought it was respite care cuz
00:39:09
that's what I was told. But clearly it
00:39:11
was more than that. I hadn't thought
00:39:13
anything of it. Just he's Lraine needs a
00:39:15
break. And it wasn't it.
00:39:19
That was that was the end.
00:39:24
Yeah. It's it's unfair. And I Well,
00:39:26
life's not fair. We know that. Life's
00:39:28
not fair. But, you know, that was the
00:39:30
that was the card he was dealt sadly.
00:39:32
And um can't change it. And as you get
00:39:36
older, it sort of just crystallizes the
00:39:37
fact that, you know, we've all here for
00:39:39
a limited time. I mean, you had you've
00:39:40
had this thing recently and Doc Mayhew.
00:39:43
Yeah, I know. Just sort of crystallizes
00:39:45
that just how precious. Yeah. And you
00:39:47
also know when you get to my stage of
00:39:49
life, they like we laugh that we're all
00:39:51
getting in sniper rally now, but we go
00:39:53
to far more far more funerals and
00:39:55
weddings. So, it's just a sign. Look, at
00:39:57
the end of the day, um, you know, we
00:40:00
don't consider 70 or even 80 that old
00:40:02
nowadays, you know, and once upon a time
00:40:04
it was like, oh, that's not bad. We
00:40:05
don't consider it nowadays at all. And
00:40:07
again, um, I heard a saying relatively
00:40:10
recently that getting old's a privilege.
00:40:11
You know, we moan and groan about
00:40:12
falling apart and I'm feel like I'm
00:40:14
falling apart at the moment, but but
00:40:15
getting old's a privilege because not
00:40:17
everyone gets to do it. 100%. So, you
00:40:19
know, as much as you might have some
00:40:20
ailments and, you know, things that are
00:40:21
niggling and annoying you, wow, you
00:40:24
know, I'm we're still here. It's better
00:40:26
than the alternative. Better than the
00:40:27
alternative. Yeah. Hey, um, thanks for
00:40:29
sharing that stuff about Martin. Yeah.
00:40:33
Great New Zealander. Like you look at
00:40:34
T20 now. He was kind of like the cricket
00:40:36
max. Yeah. Invented a thing called
00:40:38
Cricket Max. That was I thought it was a
00:40:39
bit wacky at the time. Yeah. Yeah. And
00:40:40
and but he, you know, he was working at
00:40:41
Sky and he got Sky TV to back and my
00:40:44
again I don't know all the detail, but I
00:40:46
he was a pioneer of things in many ways
00:40:48
and I reckon he was the guy and I'm
00:40:50
going to credit him with him regardless
00:40:52
that that he's he pioneered what
00:40:54
eventually became T20. M through cricket
00:40:56
max he was innovative you know he cared
00:40:58
so deeply but he wanted this game to
00:41:00
evolve and grow and become more
00:41:02
appealing and you know he I guess he
00:41:04
understood that well test match
00:41:06
cricket's the pinnacle you know at the
00:41:08
end of the day trying to engage an
00:41:09
audience you know when you can go five
00:41:11
days and not get not get a result is not
00:41:13
easy so how do we you know and how do we
00:41:15
package something up that works in three
00:41:17
hours for broadcast that people can
00:41:19
consume for three hours and make it
00:41:21
exciting and you know bring some other
00:41:23
innovative things into it. So, hello.
00:41:25
Here's Cricket Max.
00:41:28
Can we go back to your All Black career?
00:41:30
Yep. Yeah. Okay. So, do you remember the
00:41:31
moment you became an all black? Yep. I
00:41:32
remember the moment the team was
00:41:34
announced. Yeah. Did you have like a
00:41:36
probables possibles trial? No. No. Not
00:41:39
Not for Fiji. No. No. That was just
00:41:41
picked at the end of the NPC
00:41:44
um in 1984. Right. So, you were playing
00:41:46
for the the mighty Oakland team. Yeah.
00:41:48
Yeah. Well, that was 1982. So, we'd won
00:41:50
the championship that year, but the NPC
00:41:52
had started in its current form um or as
00:41:55
a proper NPC championship in 1976.
00:41:57
Oakland hadn't despite being the biggest
00:42:00
population hadn't won it. So, you know,
00:42:01
John Hart became coach in 1982. Uh you
00:42:04
know, we won that. Sorry, I became 1984.
00:42:07
Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. Um I
00:42:09
So, um 82, we played well and won it. 83
00:42:12
um you know, we hadn't won it. Um 84 we
00:42:15
won it again. I'm pretty sure of that.
00:42:17
again my memory but Aland had yeah we
00:42:20
had because we had had a good season
00:42:22
we'd been pretty pretty dominant um you
00:42:24
know on the back of that I'd had a
00:42:25
pretty good year the jungle drums were
00:42:27
beating that you know I was likely to
00:42:28
get picked alongside Wayne Smith um I
00:42:31
have a feeling Ian Dunn who was the guy
00:42:33
who was with the um the some of these
00:42:35
understudying 83 lines was injured so
00:42:38
that that opened a bit of a door um I
00:42:40
can't remember exactly but I think that
00:42:41
was the case um and they just you don't
00:42:44
get didn't get a phone call you just
00:42:46
just heard it on the Yeah. So, I was
00:42:47
gathered around the radio. I think it
00:42:48
was at 2 I'm pretty sure it was 2:00 on
00:42:50
a Sunday afternoon. I was with a D at a
00:42:53
mom and dad's house and their name was
00:42:54
read out.
00:42:56
[ __ ] What's that moment like? Oh, yeah.
00:42:59
I mean, it's surreal. It's I mean, it's
00:43:01
what you know, it was the it was the
00:43:02
boyhood dream you strive towards. You
00:43:05
don't towards you don't you don't really
00:43:06
know. The jungle drums were beating. So,
00:43:08
you you sit there with a certain amount
00:43:10
of, you know, confidence, I guess, that
00:43:13
yep, on the back of what's happened. um
00:43:16
you know um there's a there's a
00:43:18
reasonable chance but there also a
00:43:19
chance you won't. So just because there
00:43:21
there is a degree of confident doesn't
00:43:22
mean you're not sitting there with your
00:43:24
belly bloody churning cuz mine was. the
00:43:26
nerves would would jingle and so um and
00:43:29
so it was you know I mean great um
00:43:31
euphoria but also a great sense of
00:43:33
relief but the journey about to start
00:43:35
the relief bits go finally made it but
00:43:37
you haven't made it it's only you just
00:43:38
started another journey you know so um
00:43:41
and I you know clearly for me I didn't
00:43:43
want to be picked and have one tour and
00:43:44
stop I wanted to you know even though I
00:43:46
hadn't been in the team it's you know
00:43:48
with its history you want to be part of
00:43:49
it so I just wanted this to you know
00:43:52
this is the start of something I want to
00:43:53
last for a while and how intimidating is
00:43:56
that so the the position you're in
00:43:57
number 10, you're sort of like um
00:43:59
controlling the flow of the game in a
00:44:01
way. Um yet you're you know you're the
00:44:04
new kid on the block by these senior
00:44:06
players. How [ __ ] intimidating is
00:44:08
that? Um I well I see I don't look at it
00:44:11
like like that. I mean that was just
00:44:13
part of my job. I got picked um um
00:44:15
because um I was deemed to be um you
00:44:18
know good enough by the selectors um
00:44:20
part of my job and with with Oakland I
00:44:22
ran the cutter. I you know I dealt the
00:44:24
cards. So that's and it's still to this
00:44:27
day traditionally number 10 does that.
00:44:29
So that hasn't it's probably always been
00:44:30
the same. So that was just part of what
00:44:33
my role was and so I was I was used to
00:44:35
it not intimidated by it at all. Yes, it
00:44:38
was going to be up a level from what
00:44:39
would been and it was going to be you
00:44:41
know um faster, more physical um you
00:44:44
know more demanding mentally because it
00:44:46
was going to be harder to plot your way
00:44:47
around a little bit. But again you just
00:44:49
dial into what the team's trying to
00:44:50
achieve. get into the game plan, you
00:44:52
know, use a bit of intuition,
00:44:54
understanding, you know, the pictures
00:44:55
you're painting and what back what what
00:44:57
we call a backfield looks like. Um, and
00:45:00
so I didn't I don't think it was
00:45:02
daunting. I I I thought it was a great
00:45:03
challenge, but not not daunted by it.
00:45:05
Not that I can recall anyway. Oh, a lot
00:45:07
of the team members were probably your
00:45:08
Oakland teammates anyway, right? Uh,
00:45:10
yeah, not so many days, but a few. Yeah.
00:45:12
Yeah, there was a lot in the 87 World
00:45:14
Cup team. Again, a lot of guys, but no,
00:45:16
there was a few. But but you know the
00:45:17
other guys we played against so we knew
00:45:19
them anyway you know and look it's funny
00:45:21
how you're fierce competitors when you
00:45:22
play against each other proincially like
00:45:24
you wanna you want to win and sometimes
00:45:27
with the bigger boys it gets a little
00:45:28
bit more you know they getting very
00:45:30
physical against each other but the all
00:45:32
the all blacks brings you together so
00:45:33
all of those things are you know if
00:45:35
there's been an incident that one guy's
00:45:37
clocked you um and at the time you're
00:45:39
annoyed when you go the all black you
00:45:40
just laugh about that so um you know we
00:45:42
just it just bring you just come
00:45:44
together and the um The first game you
00:45:47
played for was that was that in
00:45:48
Argentina and no first test was in
00:45:50
Argentina. First test was in Argentina.
00:45:52
First game in Fiji in ' 84. First game
00:45:54
in Fiji in ' 84. Yeah. What what's that
00:45:56
like putting the jersey on? You used to
00:45:58
been um really anxious pregame, right?
00:46:01
Like Yeah. I got nervous, right? Because
00:46:03
nervous means you're ready in my view.
00:46:04
if you if there wasn't anything going on
00:46:06
from a um the nervous system um a
00:46:09
nervous system wasn't I mean I think at
00:46:12
times depending on form nervous the
00:46:13
nervous system can create doubt but if
00:46:15
you're in form it creates excitement
00:46:17
because if you don't get it you're not
00:46:18
ready so that's how I always judged if I
00:46:20
wasn't sitting in the bus you know or in
00:46:22
the dressing room before with a couple
00:46:24
of dry reaches I thought well am I ready
00:46:25
for this or not now I learned that over
00:46:27
time um because preparation is the key
00:46:29
to success so you know if you've done
00:46:31
your work yeah you okay I'm ready
00:46:33
whatever they're going to throw at me.
00:46:35
Um, what what we're trying to achieve,
00:46:37
you know, I'm ready for that and I know
00:46:38
my mates are too. Did the the premature
00:46:41
vomiting stop after I didn't vomit. I
00:46:43
didn't vomit. No, not really. I mean, it
00:46:45
was I mean, dry reach and look, it
00:46:47
wasn't a permanent like it would just be
00:46:49
a couple of times where the nerves would
00:46:50
just get a little bit and so I'd have to
00:46:52
go and it was a dry reach, right? And it
00:46:54
would just like one big like a big yawn
00:46:57
and done, right? So, vomiting, no,
00:46:59
didn't never get to that. And it wasn't
00:47:01
every game, right? Um, you know, some
00:47:03
games it's you can't you can't be the
00:47:06
top of the mountain all the time. You're
00:47:07
going to fluctuate a little bit. It's
00:47:08
just you cannot you mentally just can't
00:47:11
do it. The best sports people in the
00:47:12
world don't win every time they play cuz
00:47:14
sometimes they're just not where they'd
00:47:16
like to be. And you can't peak every
00:47:18
time. I mean, realistically, I reckon
00:47:20
you can peak about 10% of the time you
00:47:22
play. You can be at maximum, you know,
00:47:25
maximum level. Um, so some games more
00:47:28
than others got you depending on I guess
00:47:30
the magnitude of the game and and how
00:47:32
you prepared for that. Um, but dry
00:47:35
reaching wasn't uncommon for me.
00:47:39
Yeah, it was completely different um
00:47:40
time then mid 80s to what it is now like
00:47:42
in the team there were there were cops,
00:47:43
farmers, truck drivers. Um, yeah. What
00:47:47
did what did an average week look like?
00:47:48
Week of a test. Well, we were together
00:47:50
we we were together in the test, right?
00:47:52
So the week of a test was different than
00:47:53
playing for pro provincial rugby. But
00:47:54
provincial rugby was um train Tuesday
00:47:57
night, Thursday night um play Saturday
00:48:00
and for the most part we were probably
00:48:02
in a hotel on the Friday night um and if
00:48:04
you're traveling you are together so but
00:48:07
you travel on a Friday um fly hotel play
00:48:11
um you know come home Sunday um um and
00:48:14
you know we had our own training
00:48:15
programs during the week that were so
00:48:17
our own resource but hook touching and
00:48:19
um touching with guys like Jim Blair
00:48:20
making sure that on the Monday or the
00:48:22
Sunday our recovery you know Monday and
00:48:25
Wednesday, you know what? Our own
00:48:27
programs, especially designated
00:48:28
programs, because we weren't together as
00:48:29
a team. For an all black, you assembled
00:48:32
you. In the old days, they used to
00:48:33
assemble on a at earliest a Wednesday,
00:48:35
but sometimes Thursday to play. By the
00:48:37
time I got to the All Blacks, it was
00:48:38
more like a Monday. But and so it was it
00:48:41
was like being together professionally
00:48:43
because we weren't at work. This was our
00:48:45
job for the week even though we weren't
00:48:46
we weren't paid for it. So the the all
00:48:48
black all black weeks test weeks changed
00:48:51
a bit because of you know the team
00:48:52
wasn't together very often spend much
00:48:54
time together so you needed a few days
00:48:56
it's still the all blacks still nowadays
00:48:58
get the least amount of prep time of any
00:48:59
of the teams that play the super rugby
00:49:01
teams get the best run at this on terms
00:49:03
of preseason leading in the NPC teams
00:49:06
get more than the all blacks but but not
00:49:08
as much as super rugby team the all
00:49:10
blacks get the least of all you know
00:49:11
they go into a big test match and you've
00:49:12
effectively you're lucky if you got a
00:49:14
week right so it's it's and you know so
00:49:16
that's That's sometimes the bit that's
00:49:18
forgotten when the expectation of the
00:49:20
All Blacks. And by the way, I don't want
00:49:21
this to change, but you've often got you
00:49:23
spend the less time together of any of
00:49:25
the teams you play with, play for. Did
00:49:28
you Were you guys doing weights back
00:49:29
then? Not gym at all. No, not until Jim
00:49:32
Blair came along, right? Um um and you
00:49:36
know, weights was a small part of what I
00:49:38
I did. not not an awful lot, but more of
00:49:40
it um was about plyometric work on boxes
00:49:42
and hopping and jumping, you know, um to
00:49:45
to get explosiveness in um um but in the
00:49:49
early days just running roads. We just
00:49:50
ran roads. That's what we did. And at
00:49:52
training, they'd try and throw a few
00:49:54
henny mullers in and you know what we'd
00:49:56
call down and ups, you know, little
00:49:58
short sprints and go down, do a press
00:50:00
up, turn around, come. So very primitive
00:50:01
stuff in those days that we didn't know
00:50:03
any better, right? So it was a lot of
00:50:04
aerobic based more than, you know,
00:50:06
strength-based. Nowadays it's it's a
00:50:09
blend of everything and diet. We didn't
00:50:11
diet didn't what was diet? We didn't
00:50:13
know. We didn't know. You one of your
00:50:15
heroes um BG Super Williams I had him on
00:50:18
the podcast and he talked about like the
00:50:19
tours in the 70s how they'd um like have
00:50:22
a big steak for breakfast and first half
00:50:24
of the game he said he'd be like burping
00:50:25
up steak and stuff and then uh you the
00:50:28
body would digest it and the second half
00:50:29
you start to get the energy from you
00:50:31
only you only knew what you knew, right?
00:50:33
That's what so that's what you go on.
00:50:35
Um, I mean mine mine used to be baked
00:50:38
beans, eggs.
00:50:40
Um, I might have had fries and bacon I
00:50:43
think was my and a certain time before
00:50:45
the game. That was my that was and we
00:50:47
played in the afternoon remember mostly.
00:50:49
So it was a pre-match meal probably um
00:50:53
between five and six hours before the
00:50:55
game. Now these guys eat much closer to
00:50:58
the game um than than what what um what
00:51:00
we used to. But again, they've got all
00:51:02
the science around it. M we didn't have
00:51:04
any of it in those days.
00:51:07
Yeah, it's quite cool when you look
00:51:08
back. It's pretty cool, eh? They're cool
00:51:10
stories. Yeah, they are. But but again,
00:51:12
it's it's just you know what you know. I
00:51:14
mean, the guys who played, you know, you
00:51:15
sit with Ian Kpatrick and things at
00:51:17
times and they got different stories
00:51:18
again. It's just different eras cuz um
00:51:20
you know the the the society was
00:51:22
different. Um you know, the way they
00:51:25
were judged was different. You know, how
00:51:27
often nowadays do we see behaviors of
00:51:29
the past that were considered okay
00:51:32
looked through the lens of today are not
00:51:33
okay yet we want to litigate them. Well,
00:51:35
I don't think that's particularly fair.
00:51:37
Depending on what it is, of course, but
00:51:39
um you know, it's just like, well, you
00:51:41
know, times have changed. So, you know,
00:51:44
what happened back then, you know, it
00:51:46
just it is it was it was what it was,
00:51:49
right? And okay, might we mightn't like
00:51:51
it nowadays, but back then, what you
00:51:54
know, if you didn't have an issue with
00:51:55
it at the time, eh, it's you just
00:51:57
compare it. Yeah, you can't compare it,
00:51:58
right? And by today's lens on certain
00:52:00
things, you can see, yeah, okay, it
00:52:01
wasn't this, but again, you only only
00:52:03
know what you know, and at certain
00:52:05
times, you only know what you know. And
00:52:06
as you grow and evolve and learn and
00:52:08
things change, well, and you adapt,
00:52:10
okay, well, Mia, maybe that wasn't, you
00:52:12
know, wasn't quite so good, but but it
00:52:14
wasn't considered at the time. And so,
00:52:15
you don't judge yourself that way. Yeah.
00:52:17
Anyway, I don't want to get deep and
00:52:19
meaningful on this. Oh, no. No, I like
00:52:21
it. It's one one thing I like I admire
00:52:23
about you greatly like how you you will
00:52:25
put your neck out and speak your mind
00:52:26
about things when a lot of the time it's
00:52:28
easier just to just well in today in
00:52:30
today's world it's easier to shut up now
00:52:32
I don't do this to be honest I have shut
00:52:33
myself off right I mean I don't long
00:52:35
form podcasts are fine and I this is
00:52:37
only my third one I've done but it's
00:52:39
simply because you get a chance to have
00:52:41
a proper conversation and get context
00:52:42
around it unless someone decides to clip
00:52:44
this for their own end but um um so you
00:52:48
just anyway I so I just I got better
00:52:51
things to So I'm just saying I don't the
00:52:53
world we live in it's so easy to get you
00:52:55
I mean poke your head above the parabet
00:52:57
boom they lop it off easy easy easy you
00:52:59
know and maybe a cowardly way is I don't
00:53:01
want to be part of that I did that once
00:53:02
upon a time um I'm at a time of life now
00:53:05
with grandchildren and you know wanting
00:53:06
to spend more time at home that I just
00:53:08
it's not what I want not what I want to
00:53:09
be part of don't eat it not your circus
00:53:11
not your monkeys um so we're so we're
00:53:15
leading up to the 87 World Cup but
00:53:16
before then there was the Cavaliers tour
00:53:19
I'm um I I'm I'm 52, but I don't even
00:53:22
remember the backstory with this. What's
00:53:24
the What's the story with the Oh, there
00:53:25
been there have been So, we were due to
00:53:26
tour as an all black team in 1985. An
00:53:28
all black team had been picked. I got
00:53:29
picked in that team. And, you know, for
00:53:31
for at that period, and I'd still argue
00:53:33
nowadays, they are the our great foes,
00:53:35
our great friends, but our great foes.
00:53:37
The history's enormous, right? Um, you
00:53:39
know, it took us till 1996 to win a
00:53:41
series in South Africa, and they've been
00:53:42
going on for, you know, 1921, I think,
00:53:44
was the first time we went to South
00:53:46
Africa. Um, or they might have come
00:53:48
here. I can't remember which way round.
00:53:49
um we were picked and then a couple of
00:53:52
um uh university club lawyers who was a
00:53:54
club I belong to um took an injunction
00:53:57
out against the New Zealand rugby union
00:53:58
and um the tour was stopped by a high
00:54:00
court judge called Ted Thomas I think um
00:54:03
and so that tour was scrapped and so you
00:54:05
know a rebel tour was put together the
00:54:07
next year because there's a lot of us
00:54:08
who felt unjustly denied because we just
00:54:11
you know there's a lot of people who
00:54:12
still want to link sport and politics. I
00:54:13
don't draw that link at all. I
00:54:15
understand how people want to do it but
00:54:18
we because they were thinking by going
00:54:20
to play in South Africa we were
00:54:21
condoning a part of I can't think of
00:54:22
anyone there wouldn't have been in our
00:54:23
team who condoned it at all but we just
00:54:25
wanted to play sport against our foes we
00:54:27
didn't want to be pawns in a bigger game
00:54:29
right so um we just want to get on so
00:54:32
that's there was a great frustration
00:54:33
from the group and so I think only David
00:54:35
Kirk and John Cen from the original
00:54:37
select selected group didn't go of 30
00:54:39
and so that was April 1986 I think we
00:54:42
went on that tour because I genuinely
00:54:44
thought at the time, I may never get the
00:54:47
chance to play against the Spring Box as
00:54:49
an All Black, but I want to play them.
00:54:51
We knew um that we were likely to be
00:54:54
banned. Um we knew the risks involved.
00:54:58
Um but for me, I just wanted to test
00:55:00
myself as a rugby player in this against
00:55:02
the great foe who I'd watch growing up
00:55:04
who we could never beat in their in
00:55:06
their backyard. That was and I want and
00:55:08
grow and became a better rugby. I
00:55:10
believe I came back a better rugby
00:55:11
player. I don't want to get into the
00:55:13
political side of things cuz it wasn't
00:55:15
in my not so it wasn't in my head not
00:55:17
you know people trying to suggest um if
00:55:20
we did things how we were thinking and
00:55:22
therefore judge us on that they they
00:55:24
don't know us they don't know what we
00:55:25
think was was there any sort of riff
00:55:27
between the players that went and say
00:55:30
Kirk and Kerwin for not I don't look I
00:55:32
mean with with I think there might have
00:55:35
been with Kirky um more with perhaps um
00:55:39
you know the late great Andy Hayden a
00:55:41
little bit um overtly. I didn't I I
00:55:44
either I didn't see it or I can't
00:55:45
remember it. I'm not trying to um ignore
00:55:47
the question, but I genu genuinely
00:55:49
can't. Um Kirky might have, you know,
00:55:52
perhaps, you know, um made some comments
00:55:55
publicly where I think maybe JK didn't
00:55:57
and, you know, maybe um with Kirky's,
00:56:01
you know, um um value system, his
00:56:04
values, it might have rubbed a couple of
00:56:07
guys up the wrong way. Kirk is entitled
00:56:09
to his views and his opinions and his
00:56:11
beliefs. Um that might have played out a
00:56:13
little bit, but again I can't I can't
00:56:15
remember it. Um 40 years ago
00:56:19
and yeah and look that's in that's in
00:56:21
the past, right? Um um I but I genuinely
00:56:24
believe as we lead into the 87 thing
00:56:26
that that that helped mold the great
00:56:29
team that started in 1987. How so?
00:56:32
Because a whole lot of because um a
00:56:34
number of us were banned and we didn't
00:56:37
you got like a two two two test span
00:56:40
right two test span um so a whole new
00:56:43
team had to be picked so a whole lot of
00:56:44
players got exposed um to all black test
00:56:47
rugby who wouldn't have got an
00:56:48
opportunity otherwise right because if
00:56:50
that would in 85 largely um you know
00:56:54
through 86 and 87 a lot of the group
00:56:56
would have been similar so you exposed a
00:56:58
whole lot more players to that and the
00:57:01
baby blats were ultimately successful
00:57:04
right because they weren't expected to
00:57:06
be Um and and out of that it was a wider
00:57:10
pool of players to pick from and with
00:57:13
Brian Lore, John Hart and Alex Wy they
00:57:15
picked a blend of what had been the
00:57:16
older guys, established guys and some of
00:57:18
the baby blacks and I generally think
00:57:20
that out of that we got we got two
00:57:22
things. one is um you know a very well
00:57:25
selected team because I got you know
00:57:28
some really good players were exposed
00:57:29
and deserve to be included and secondly
00:57:32
there you know there was adversity for
00:57:34
the game in New Zealand um and we had
00:57:37
also lost a test series to Australia in
00:57:38
1986 at home so that was adversity also
00:57:42
as well as you know the background stuff
00:57:43
with the Cavaliers so you learn more
00:57:45
from adversity than success so out of
00:57:48
that that those two things the adversity
00:57:50
um and um the wider the talent pool that
00:57:53
ultimately got whittleled down to a 26
00:57:55
strong playing group for the World Cup.
00:57:56
They they were the they were well wasn't
00:57:59
the reason, but they were the su they
00:58:01
were the seeds of success. So yeah, the
00:58:03
1987 Rugby World Cup, the first ever
00:58:06
Rugby World Cup y um which the All
00:58:08
Blacks won. I I I believe there was no
00:58:10
sort of hype around it like when the
00:58:12
tournament started. No, I don't I don't
00:58:13
recall and again this is my memory not
00:58:15
being not being great for something that
00:58:16
happened
00:58:18
how many years ago now? 30 30 whatever
00:58:20
is better. Yeah, you're better at math
00:58:22
than me. Um but yeah, I mean I'm pretty
00:58:25
sure it was Friday the um 20th of May.
00:58:27
Um and someone will prove me wrong here.
00:58:29
Um 1987 we played Italy um to open the
00:58:32
World Cup with a half full Eden Park. No
00:58:35
one knew what to expect. You know, World
00:58:37
Cup World Cup was something that I
00:58:39
understand was pretty strongly driven by
00:58:41
the Southern Hemisphere nations that
00:58:43
ultimately got a support from one or two
00:58:45
northern hemisphere nations who I don't
00:58:46
think were for the idea at all. But
00:58:48
anyway, um it got through and it was
00:58:50
started and you know it was meandering
00:58:52
along to be perfectly honest. Um you
00:58:55
know we were beating Italy but not by
00:58:57
much. It was a muddling sort of first
00:58:58
half. The first try was a penalty try.
00:59:00
Michael Jones scored the first real try.
00:59:03
And I've said this often and I am going
00:59:05
to say it again that what I think still
00:59:06
what lit the World Cup is JK's try. That
00:59:08
was you you set him up. You No, I just
00:59:10
passed. Kirky passed it to me and I
00:59:12
passed it to JK. That's all it was.
00:59:14
Right. A good pass. Um but you know 70
00:59:16
odd meters out and away he went. Right.
00:59:18
And it would just it lit it up I reckon.
00:59:20
But it all but we ultimately put 70 on
00:59:22
Italy. So I think that that started to
00:59:24
build that you know okay maybe we've got
00:59:26
something here in this team and maybe
00:59:27
this event's a little bit more than what
00:59:29
we thought it was. So it built
00:59:30
throughout the tournament and you know
00:59:32
obviously we got through it through pool
00:59:33
play through finals play got to the
00:59:36
final beat France in the final um and
00:59:39
look where look where the World Cup is
00:59:40
now in the Pantheon World events. I mean
00:59:42
it's about the number three most watched
00:59:44
sort of world this style of event in the
00:59:46
world as I understand. So it's or third
00:59:48
or fourth. So it's come a long way.
00:59:51
Yeah, it's crazy. So you win the the
00:59:53
inaugural one in ' 87. Like there's no
00:59:55
way of knowing. We'll get to 91 soon
00:59:57
because you were like the villain of 91
00:59:58
after all blacks didn't win. But who
01:00:00
would have thought it would be like 2011
01:00:03
before we finally won another one. It's
01:00:04
I know it's a long time between Yeah, it
01:00:06
is. I mean it just shows you how hard
01:00:07
they win. I know All Blacks I think at
01:00:10
every World Cup um up until um 2011 had
01:00:14
probably gone in as favorites, right? uh
01:00:16
and hadn't won since 1987 just shows you
01:00:21
how hard they are to win because when
01:00:23
you play a seasonl long you know um uh
01:00:26
tournament that you know like a super
01:00:28
rugby thing that culminates later on and
01:00:30
you got a whole lot of games you can
01:00:31
handles handle a loss of two or three um
01:00:34
um world cup even a loss and pool play
01:00:36
can be terminal um and certainly losing
01:00:38
a final series is terminal so if you
01:00:41
have one bad day at the office you're
01:00:42
done and sadly for the All Blacks that
01:00:44
was a bit of a trend that that plagued
01:00:47
them until we got it right in 2011. And
01:00:49
even in 2011, you know, I'd still argue
01:00:52
we weren't the best team in the final.
01:00:54
We were the best team at the tournament.
01:00:55
We just weren't the best team on the
01:00:56
day, but we found a way to win. Um, and
01:01:00
that had come out of the adversity of of
01:01:02
um 2007 because Richie in particular, as
01:01:06
you know, a young leader in 2007, but a
01:01:08
very experienced leader in 2011, he knew
01:01:10
how to navigate that. him and you know
01:01:12
the the senior guys around knew how to
01:01:13
navigate those tense bloody last sort of
01:01:16
10 or 15 minutes. They knew how to do it
01:01:18
and not not um 2007 they didn't know how
01:01:22
to do it. So again out of adversity you
01:01:25
learn. Yeah 100% you do. Um
01:01:30
so the 87 World Cup did you guys go were
01:01:32
you bulleted? You you based at the
01:01:34
Panamu for the most part right? Uh no we
01:01:36
traveled we traveled so Panamu was the
01:01:38
Oakland base. We we played games in
01:01:40
Wellington and we played games in Christ
01:01:41
Church. What was the bulleting thing?
01:01:43
Was it was that just like It was after
01:01:44
Argent It was after Argentina and
01:01:45
Wellington and pool play and um um Brian
01:01:48
Lahore something he had organized. We
01:01:50
didn't know about it. So the little
01:01:51
little place called Paninoa um I'm
01:01:54
pretty sure I'm right here the late
01:01:55
great Sir Brian Lahore. He just his way
01:01:57
of keeping us grounded, right? And so we
01:01:59
go to this community hall. We had no
01:02:01
idea we're going to be billeted. You
01:02:02
know, it was just like we thought it was
01:02:04
a community event. Good idea. Get in the
01:02:05
rural community. Next one this week
01:02:07
comes in. Well, Fox and Shelfford you
01:02:09
were with. Oh, okay. What's this about?
01:02:12
And so, I think it was only for a couple
01:02:13
of nights, but it was just it was a
01:02:15
master stroke by um BJ, you know, just
01:02:17
to, you know, to to maybe just take us
01:02:21
away from the pressure of the tournament
01:02:22
environment, living in each other's
01:02:24
pockets in a hotel, give us a taste of,
01:02:26
you know, real Kiwi country lifestyle.
01:02:29
Take our mind off for a bit before we
01:02:31
gathered again for an assault on the
01:02:32
finals. So, so you were staying in like
01:02:34
just a house with a family. Yeah. Again,
01:02:36
I can't exactly remember, but yeah, and
01:02:39
I'm pretty sure it was Buck and I were
01:02:40
billeted together. Um, it's funny
01:02:43
enough, my first billet um wasn't um was
01:02:46
going back to 1975 in the Roller Mills
01:02:48
tournament in Otra Honga and I stayed
01:02:50
with the Kudson family. So, I can
01:02:52
remember that, but I can't remember the
01:02:54
fan we stayed at in the W rapper. They
01:02:56
will know who they are, but um yeah, I
01:02:58
just Yeah. Anyway, just the way my brain
01:03:00
works sometimes or doesn't work. Yeah.
01:03:02
Well, it's g these stories, it's a long
01:03:05
time ago. long time ago, but there were,
01:03:06
you know, if there were some kids in
01:03:08
that household, like imagine the impact
01:03:09
that had on had on them. Like, you know,
01:03:11
growing up, I guess. So, but I'd grown
01:03:14
up on a farm, so I loved it, you know,
01:03:16
and Buck was a Navy man, right? So, you
01:03:19
know, I mean, farming was easy, the farm
01:03:21
life. We probably went out and helped
01:03:22
them feed out hay in that, too. I'm
01:03:23
pretty pretty sure we did, but I can't
01:03:25
exactly remember. But it was again it
01:03:27
was just a master stroke of psychology
01:03:29
from from Brian Lor just to change the
01:03:31
frame a little bit to get us set for you
01:03:34
know for a run at the finals. Can you
01:03:36
imagine that now like having a having a
01:03:38
Barrett or a severe staying at your
01:03:39
house for a couple of days like it's
01:03:41
just
01:03:43
and the problem the problem is nowadays
01:03:45
you probably have a media camp on your
01:03:46
doorstep too if that happens. So you you
01:03:49
you wouldn't do that nowadays. There's a
01:03:50
lot the profile of these guys cuz the
01:03:52
way the media is nowadays in some ways
01:03:54
is they're a bit more exposed than we
01:03:56
were. You know, it was mainstream media
01:03:57
in our days. Um and we worked and so I
01:04:00
think there was a certain degree of well
01:04:02
you are um you know you're just like us
01:04:04
in many ways. Nowadays I think that
01:04:06
people feel a bit more ownership and
01:04:08
it's the wrong word. I put it inverted
01:04:09
commas but because these guys earn their
01:04:11
living out of playing the game they feel
01:04:14
maybe they've got a bit more say and a
01:04:15
bit more ownership of it. I don't
01:04:16
believe that at all, but I do think
01:04:18
that's part of the way some people think
01:04:20
sometimes, right? You're earning some of
01:04:22
your wages come from me buying a ticket.
01:04:25
And I don't think that's that's right.
01:04:27
But you know, maybe I've got that wrong,
01:04:29
but you know, I just sort of feel at
01:04:31
times these guys live in a hell of a
01:04:32
fishbowl nowadays. It's you know, I mean
01:04:36
um we had a lot of fun um touring and
01:04:39
these guys, modern day guys don't know
01:04:40
any different either. So they're having
01:04:42
just as much fun. They just didn't they
01:04:44
their funds different than what ours was
01:04:46
doing different things, right? Um yeah,
01:04:48
a lot of that is probably they're aware
01:04:49
of the danger they can get get into with
01:04:51
alcohol, but a lot of it's the iPhone's
01:04:54
a bigger thing, social media, cameras
01:04:56
everywhere, right? Well, I wonder if
01:04:57
part of it is the professionalism angle
01:04:59
as well. Like um yeah, someone like
01:05:00
Ruben Love who takes his fitness
01:05:01
incredibly seriously. Like I wonder if
01:05:03
he's sure. Yeah, but we had guys did it.
01:05:04
It just wasn't in the public arena. It
01:05:06
wasn't a forum for a ride and we didn't
01:05:07
have Instagram or bloody whatever Tik
01:05:09
Tok or that to display all that. him,
01:05:11
you know, we we weren't earning money
01:05:12
off our own our own image rights or
01:05:14
whatever. It was it's just a different
01:05:15
time. I'm not passing judgment. It's
01:05:17
just different.
01:05:20
Yeah, it was a good time, eh? Well,
01:05:24
again, you only know what you know. You
01:05:25
only know what you know. So, where do we
01:05:26
learn from the guys who gone before us,
01:05:28
right? So, you only know what you know.
01:05:30
I mean, you know what we did in those
01:05:32
days, I mean, how many how much beer we
01:05:34
used to consume after games, you'd sort
01:05:35
of frown upon nowadays, but you only
01:05:37
know what you know. Yeah. you know, and
01:05:39
and to be honest, the media couldn't we
01:05:41
couldn't get in trouble with the media
01:05:42
because we played daytime footy. They'd
01:05:44
fold and and or you know, um their
01:05:46
stories. They'd be coming a beer with
01:05:48
us, you know. It wouldn't necessarily be
01:05:50
it wouldn't be in the team room. It
01:05:50
might be at a pub down the road from and
01:05:52
with some locals, you know, that was
01:05:54
just that's the way it was. Yeah.
01:05:57
Yeah. There's changes that happen over
01:05:59
over time for good, but also things that
01:06:01
get lost, which is kind of I mean I mean
01:06:03
not everything that happened nowadays is
01:06:05
better than it was in the old days, but
01:06:06
it is what it is. Yeah. Who who was um
01:06:10
who were your best friends and your
01:06:11
favorite roommates at that time? Oh, I
01:06:12
don't remember favorite room. We used to
01:06:14
get roommed with I mean most often
01:06:15
paired with a half peak but but but a
01:06:17
lot but other times not. So I don't
01:06:19
remember. I just I mean I'd like to
01:06:20
think that I got on well with everybody.
01:06:22
I was intense. I knew that it was the
01:06:24
way that I prepared and played and by
01:06:26
nature I'm that. I'm not I'm not the
01:06:28
practical joker like Alan Whitten was
01:06:30
and not many of the guys were but you
01:06:32
know my I had an intensity about the way
01:06:34
I went about things. I think the guys
01:06:36
knew and understood that. um and gave
01:06:39
you space because we all knew we all had
01:06:41
our own foables and we all had a common
01:06:44
goal on what we were trying to achieve
01:06:45
and we gave each other space to to do it
01:06:48
the way that we thought was best for
01:06:49
ourselves that could contribute to the
01:06:51
team. So I don't recall, you know, um um
01:06:55
you know, favorite roommates or anything
01:06:57
like that. They they changed off often
01:06:59
enough. And that was good for the team
01:07:00
dynamic, too, you know, to make sure
01:07:01
you're mixed up. And you know, one thing
01:07:03
I think that used to happen is if we
01:07:05
had, you know, the if there was an
01:07:07
option of different floors, the guys who
01:07:08
weren't playing in particular, like you
01:07:10
take a big touring group in those days,
01:07:12
we only had six reserves. the the the
01:07:14
rest who were the dirty dirty who were
01:07:16
the other nine of us put down the other
01:07:18
end of the hotel and kept away because
01:07:19
that was a license to have a bit of fun
01:07:21
for a few days still train hard but have
01:07:23
a bit of fun because we weren't playing.
01:07:25
Um so yeah again just things were
01:07:27
different then they are now. What about
01:07:29
the most um underrated player of your
01:07:32
era? Oh again I don't don't sort of
01:07:34
think of things like this Dom at all um
01:07:37
to be honest. I mean, everyone um
01:07:41
um who you you play with were good
01:07:43
enough to be selected by a coach who
01:07:45
believed in them. And you know, like all
01:07:47
all like know all people who play sport
01:07:50
in elite level. Um they're all there for
01:07:53
a reason. They're good enough. Are some
01:07:55
better than others? Yes. That cream
01:07:56
usually rises to the top. Um you know,
01:07:59
we're talking in the studio. you know it
01:08:02
you can identifying X factor talent um I
01:08:05
think is not that hard to do but the X
01:08:07
factor talent that then maximizes that
01:08:09
are the ones that work hardest so you
01:08:11
maximize your your extraordinary talents
01:08:14
with a work ethic and then you get your
01:08:16
Tiger Woods your Roger Federers your
01:08:18
Martin Crows right that's what you get a
01:08:20
whole lot of other people carve out good
01:08:23
careers and they're good enough to win
01:08:25
occasionally you know a random will win
01:08:27
a PJ tour event or random's unfair word
01:08:30
but or a tennis tournament, but they're
01:08:32
good enough and they have their day in
01:08:33
the sun, but they're just not as
01:08:35
consistent because they don't quite have
01:08:36
the talent. They might have the work
01:08:37
ethic, but not quite the talent. That's
01:08:39
what sets them apart, right? So, we have
01:08:41
a lot of guys who, you know, they'd have
01:08:42
an outstanding game and then they'd
01:08:45
still play well, but not be recognized
01:08:47
as such in another game. Still doing
01:08:48
their job very well, but just not having
01:08:50
that one and one, you know, that 10% of
01:08:53
a game I talked about earlier about how
01:08:54
when you're absolutely at your peak. M
01:08:56
it's just it's it's the nature of it's
01:08:58
the nature of high level sport. Yeah. We
01:09:01
were talking earlier pre-podcast about
01:09:03
um Michael Jordan and the Last Dance
01:09:06
documentary series on Netflix.
01:09:08
Phenomenal. You very different sports um
01:09:12
and different eras. But um you you must
01:09:14
have been in some Michael Jordan
01:09:15
situations in in the respect that you
01:09:17
know the game has won or lost depending
01:09:19
on your boot. Yeah. Not very often but
01:09:22
occasionally. Um I mean most lucky
01:09:25
enough that a lot of teams I played in
01:09:26
you know were dominant enough of the
01:09:28
time that and um that I was very rarely
01:09:31
in a situation at the end of a game I
01:09:33
had to kick a goal to win. It did happen
01:09:34
but but um not that often or because you
01:09:37
were dominant you'd you know I'd kick
01:09:39
well as well as a team scoring tries
01:09:41
during the game that at the end of the
01:09:43
game there was not an issue because we
01:09:45
we were winning comfortably enough. Um
01:09:48
and you know yes I succeeded at times I
01:09:50
was in that situation. I failed at times
01:09:51
too. Um, how was that for you? I there's
01:09:55
two things. There's two of them I
01:09:56
remember both at opposite ends of the
01:09:58
spectrum. So, obviously, you know, the
01:09:59
um the 93 lines where I'd um um had
01:10:05
kicked the goal to win a game at was
01:10:06
then Lancaster Park, but I also missed
01:10:09
I'd say go back a year earlier the 1992
01:10:11
tour to Australia, the All Black. So,
01:10:13
they were the world champions in ' 91.
01:10:14
We were rebuilding. They were an
01:10:16
established world champion team and
01:10:17
playing like it too. And we had a three
01:10:19
test series in Australia. Then in the
01:10:21
first test I had a goal kick. I'm not
01:10:23
sure whether whether it was in the last
01:10:24
five or you know five or six minutes.
01:10:26
You know it was a testy kick for me and
01:10:28
those you guys can kick them from that
01:10:30
distance easy nowadays but it was a
01:10:31
testy kick. I missed it and we lost by a
01:10:34
point and I was distraught afterwards
01:10:36
like absolutely cuz the winning of that
01:10:38
game was in my hands and um you know but
01:10:41
I had a team come round me um JK in
01:10:44
particular came pick me up because I
01:10:46
still remember vividly going and sitting
01:10:48
in the showers on my own. I didn't want
01:10:49
to talk to anybody. I was just pissed
01:10:52
off. Um cuz I felt I'd let them down cuz
01:10:55
kicking goals is my job. But JK on the
01:10:58
bus rescued me. And then in the in the
01:11:01
in the team room after we had the old
01:11:02
court session, everyone knows
01:11:03
understands what went on though those
01:11:05
days. Lori Mains came to me. He was a
01:11:07
coach and he he he said, "This is not
01:11:10
your fault." Um so that picked me up,
01:11:13
you know. Then we then we lost the
01:11:14
second test by two points and won the
01:11:16
third by three. still even though we
01:11:18
lost it, I still think the best test
01:11:19
series I ever that I was part of, lucky
01:11:21
enough to be part of that, you know,
01:11:23
they were good side Australia. We were
01:11:24
rebuilding. Um, we scored the same
01:11:26
number of tries, penalties, conversions,
01:11:27
dropped goals, except they won the first
01:11:29
test by one, the second by two, and we
01:11:31
won the third by three. But out of that,
01:11:32
I've still got some great mates, you
01:11:34
know, when Ryan won the other day, first
01:11:36
guy on the phone, Nick Far Jones. Wow.
01:11:39
You know, yeah. So, Australian legend.
01:11:41
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, great
01:11:43
man. Far. So um you know the the the
01:11:46
friendships we developed out of that are
01:11:47
still very strong.
01:11:51
That's um yeah those messages like um
01:11:54
Sir JK and Lori Mains like releasing you
01:11:57
from the guilt did Yeah. Did that but
01:11:58
that but that was that was about team.
01:12:00
Yeah. Right. And that was about a mate
01:12:02
hurting and and um that's what good
01:12:04
mates do and good and good teams do you
01:12:07
know because the nature of um of um
01:12:10
doesn't matter what level you play at
01:12:12
and when you are when you are playing
01:12:13
for a result because there is a winner
01:12:15
and a loser or sometimes you draw but
01:12:17
winner and a loser well um you're going
01:12:20
to experience highs but you're going to
01:12:22
have lows too you know and that's just
01:12:24
the nature of you put yourself out there
01:12:25
and want to do it it's not all bear and
01:12:26
skittles you don't always get what you
01:12:28
want and you got to learn to to cope
01:12:30
with um um and be gracious about defeat,
01:12:34
but learn from it and try and get better
01:12:36
from it.
01:12:38
So, the the 1999 1991 Rugby World Cup,
01:12:42
so there's the 871, which we won. By the
01:12:44
way, you scored a drop goal 14 minutes
01:12:46
into the final. Y um the 1991 Rugby
01:12:50
World Cup, I' I've forgotten all about
01:12:52
this. I'm guessing a lot of people
01:12:53
listening or watching this would have as
01:12:54
well, but um reading your book, which
01:12:56
what what year did your book come out?
01:12:58
92. Okay. So this was very very So this
01:13:01
is a year later and fresh at the time.
01:13:04
Um yeah you you were like um public
01:13:06
enemy number one like you were you were
01:13:08
like a a villain. Yeah. Didn't play very
01:13:09
well and I and I I was playing on an
01:13:12
injury. Um but there was a lot I mean
01:13:14
the team our team we' had a great period
01:13:17
from 87 through to um 1991
01:13:20
sorry 1990. Uh we had won uh 23 tests in
01:13:25
a row um with uh one draw. It's still a
01:13:28
record I think in those days we played
01:13:30
touring games and there was 50 games
01:13:32
undefeated in a row. Um and a very
01:13:36
senior experienced group but you know
01:13:39
there were some of us starting to
01:13:40
struggle a bit um and we were still
01:13:42
selected um because we still had a great
01:13:44
desire to be there but you know we
01:13:45
probably weren't where we needed to be.
01:13:47
I had injured a um uh we toured
01:13:51
Argentina earlier before the World Cup
01:13:52
and id injured um a muscle a sort of
01:13:56
stomach muscle attached to the pubic
01:13:57
bone that I' the pubic bone's joined by
01:13:59
a piece of cartilage and I'd severed
01:14:01
that and so my pelvis was unstable and
01:14:04
so it was a it was I was really battling
01:14:07
um I was often told at the time that
01:14:10
this will take 12 months to heal and you
01:14:11
can't play well that wasn't an option
01:14:13
for me so I just I worked my way through
01:14:15
with a lot of treatment 3 days a week on
01:14:16
a massage table with a guy called George
01:14:19
Duncan. Um, you know, I played in sort
01:14:21
of neoprene bloody um, like wets suit
01:14:24
shorts, like undies, trying to get blood
01:14:26
into there and get it warm. I mean, it
01:14:28
was just I couldn't practice like I
01:14:29
wanted to cuz it hurt like bloody hell.
01:14:31
The benefit of hindsight, I should have
01:14:32
taken myself out, right? And nowadays,
01:14:34
you would. Um, but, you know, I got
01:14:37
picked and I didn't play very well, you
01:14:39
know. Um, the team was struggling. Um,
01:14:41
we had the, you know, Alex was the
01:14:43
coach. um you know um he was John Hart
01:14:46
was put with him. I still believe there
01:14:48
are made an error here. They still both
01:14:50
great coaches in their own right. Um but
01:14:53
um they should have either endorsed Alex
01:14:55
or sacked him. Mhm. May rest in peace.
01:14:58
But um they didn't. They put them
01:15:00
together. Two very different people, two
01:15:01
very good coaches, but just completely
01:15:04
different approaches. So that behind the
01:15:06
scenes I don't think helped at all. Um
01:15:08
and the team was struggling. and we
01:15:09
played against an Aussie team that was
01:15:10
on the up and on the day they deserved
01:15:12
to beat us and they did did comfortably.
01:15:14
I still remember that day that we had
01:15:16
struggled in the tournament. We got to a
01:15:17
semi and thought okay we we can still do
01:15:19
this and I can remember we had a a
01:15:22
calling system and it was always towards
01:15:24
me towards Michael Jones or Alan went um
01:15:26
and AJ was gone by then. Um Michael
01:15:29
mainly so where the where's the ball
01:15:31
going to be? Where what channel are we
01:15:32
attacking? So Michael knew as he pulled
01:15:33
his head out where he was going so he
01:15:35
could you know get a head start. And
01:15:38
when I think back now, the calling
01:15:39
system was so basic that anyone who was
01:15:41
listening could pick it up. Well, Simon
01:15:42
Pivan could pick it up. So, everyone's
01:15:44
like, Po, how the hell are you there? He
01:15:47
deciphered our code system. So, we just
01:15:50
battled, right? And talk about radar was
01:15:52
still relatively in its infancy. And,
01:15:54
you know, Gary was the captain, so he
01:15:56
wasn't popular either. So, we coped it.
01:15:58
Um, and you know, coping it for
01:16:01
performance is fine, but some of it I
01:16:02
think went beyond performance. Um, and
01:16:04
got personal. I mean, you know, Dom,
01:16:07
when it gets to a point when you've got
01:16:10
a um a four-year-old son who's not
01:16:14
unaware of what's going on around him,
01:16:16
who's saying to my wife, "What's daddy
01:16:17
done wrong?" You know, it's not right.
01:16:20
You know, the kid, they shouldn't be
01:16:21
that, you know, that shouldn't be going
01:16:23
performance. Yes. Other judgments um you
01:16:26
know, just went a bit far. Yeah. Yeah.
01:16:29
How do you when you reflect on that now
01:16:31
like it's a long time ago but like does
01:16:33
it does does it bring it back up and
01:16:35
make you feel angry or is it a sense of
01:16:36
No, it doesn't. No, no, no. Because I've
01:16:38
consigned that to the past. But but what
01:16:40
is interesting is that that to be I
01:16:42
generally felt I just I don't need this
01:16:44
in my life. I'm going to retire. But I
01:16:46
didn't want to make the decision while I
01:16:48
was emotional because I was I was you
01:16:50
know very upset that you know that we
01:16:52
hadn't achieved what we set out to do.
01:16:53
upset with myself. Um, you know, pissed
01:16:56
off with, you know, the narrative that
01:16:58
was out there that was, you know, more
01:17:00
than what it needed to be. I got there
01:17:02
was going to get some. I just thought it
01:17:04
was more than what it needed to be. Um,
01:17:06
and people put themselves in my shoes.
01:17:08
They I defy them to feel any different.
01:17:11
It's easier when you when you're loading
01:17:12
the gun and pulling the bullets if
01:17:13
you're the one firing the shot. If
01:17:14
you're the one at the other end, it's a
01:17:16
different scenario. Um, so I then
01:17:19
decided I'm not going to let I love this
01:17:22
game. I want to play with my mates. I'm
01:17:24
not going to let that the the naysayers
01:17:27
beat me and I'm going to I want to keep
01:17:29
playing. Uh cuz the decision for me was
01:17:31
partly about if I had if I had to play
01:17:33
one year, I had to play two years
01:17:34
because the Lions were coming in 93. And
01:17:36
my thought was, well, to be fair to the
01:17:38
All Blacks, if I'm good enough and they
01:17:40
want me, I've got to commit for two
01:17:41
years. I can't just do one. they need to
01:17:43
start the be building the new 58, have
01:17:45
the new 58 ready to go by the time I
01:17:47
stop if I'm still good enough to be
01:17:49
picked. Um, so that was part of and I'm
01:17:52
I'm glad I did that. Um, and the funny
01:17:54
thing is now we talked about it even in
01:17:56
your introduction. So no, no one's
01:17:58
remembering the negative stuff at 91 are
01:17:59
they? Yes, we know about it, but the
01:18:02
memory, your judgment now is very
01:18:03
different, you know, whereas back at
01:18:04
that time that's like they're they're at
01:18:06
you. Nowadays with time passing and the
01:18:10
career as a whole as opposed to an
01:18:12
isolated pocket, the jud the lens is
01:18:14
different. Yeah. So again, I'd cleanly
01:18:16
forgotten about this, but then reading
01:18:17
reading your book, I've got a passage
01:18:19
here. This is um a part of your book, a
01:18:20
chapter that was written by Adele.
01:18:22
Adele, who it's the first chapter of the
01:18:23
book. Yeah. Yeah. Which um you can tell
01:18:26
she's emotional about it when she's when
01:18:28
she's writing. like it's um it's an
01:18:29
angry chapter. Um and it's actually
01:18:32
heartbreaking to read as well. Our son
01:18:34
Ryan is five. He loves to hold a ball of
01:18:36
any shape or a bat or racket.
01:18:39
But may he never have to tolerate such
01:18:41
criticism as has come his father's way.
01:18:44
And may he never indulge in it at the
01:18:46
expense of others. I think you've done
01:18:48
well. He hasn't. Right. That's that's
01:18:49
right. Um that too will be part of his
01:18:53
education. Uh he has heard comments on
01:18:56
radio and they have bewildered him. He
01:18:58
asks, "Why do they say that about daddy?
01:19:00
What did daddy do wrong?"
01:19:03
That's when you know it's wrong. It's
01:19:04
devastating. That's wrong. Um
01:19:08
how do you deal with this? Um I mean,
01:19:10
I'd argue it's all it's worse nowadays,
01:19:12
too, because we just had talkback radio
01:19:14
and mainstream media out. What do I got
01:19:17
to deal with? And I don't I mean my my
01:19:20
promise if someone
01:19:23
um and there's a lot and Adele also said
01:19:25
there's a lot that went on behind the
01:19:27
scenes away from the Rabie Field in
01:19:29
terms of you know giving time to with
01:19:32
others who are less fortunate than you.
01:19:35
You talked about that your the impact
01:19:37
that you had on um a sick young boy and
01:19:38
also some elderly people. Yeah. So um
01:19:41
but that's just No one wants to know
01:19:42
about that though in the media do they?
01:19:44
No not really. No. Um, and not but if we
01:19:47
don't tell them about it, they're not to
01:19:49
know. So, not I won't blame it's their
01:19:50
fault. The only thing I would say is
01:19:52
that, you know, it happens today. I, you
01:19:55
know, there's a lot of talk about where
01:19:57
social media fits now and how negative
01:19:59
it can be. I just hide the hate the fact
01:20:01
that a whole lot of people hide behind
01:20:03
pseudonyms, right, and handles. If you
01:20:06
want to you want to do it, you got to my
01:20:08
law I'd make is your real name's got to
01:20:10
be on it. M put your real name on it and
01:20:12
see if you're prepared to say the same
01:20:13
things because then we know who you are
01:20:15
properly and we can respond properly.
01:20:17
But if you hide behind a mask, well,
01:20:21
everyone can be brave behind a maskless.
01:20:23
It's gutless, right? So that's it. And
01:20:25
then and and you know, we did get
01:20:27
letters that weren't signed, right? Cuz
01:20:29
that was that was a landscape. That was
01:20:31
the landscape in those days, right? Be
01:20:32
people who didn't sign letters. You
01:20:34
know, if someone wanted to rip rip me
01:20:36
and but was prepared to put a name and
01:20:38
address so I could respond if I wanted
01:20:40
to, fine. Without an address and without
01:20:42
a name, gutless. Yeah. Adele talked
01:20:45
about that while while Grant was still
01:20:46
in Britain for the World Cup, a letter
01:20:48
was sent to him care of New Zealand
01:20:49
Rugby Union and it was passed on to me.
01:20:51
It contained a newspaper clipping and
01:20:53
scrolled around it were derogatory
01:20:54
comments uh clearly designed to hurt.
01:20:57
That's outrageous. I just I can't
01:20:59
understand the mentality of some people,
01:21:01
right? you know, I mean, these people
01:21:03
have got to think back to their own
01:21:04
lives and think, well, mate may, you
01:21:05
know, at times I didn't get everything I
01:21:07
wanted and I didn't achieve and but
01:21:09
yeah, okay, we're not we're not we were
01:21:11
an escape for some people, I guess,
01:21:12
because, you know, um and the All
01:21:15
Black's history and legacy got a lot to
01:21:16
do with it. I wouldn't change it for
01:21:17
quits, right? Because the expectations
01:21:19
are enormous. No bigger than what the
01:21:21
team put on themselves. In fact, the
01:21:23
team's expectations are bigger and I
01:21:24
don't want that ever to change. Just at
01:21:27
times you got to think there's a human
01:21:28
being on the end of this and they have a
01:21:30
family and they have parents, right? And
01:21:32
if the boot was on the other foot,
01:21:33
what's the saying? Treat treat unto
01:21:35
others treat treat others as you want to
01:21:37
be treated or something. All right. So I
01:21:40
just think you certain principles you
01:21:42
should live by and I think that's one of
01:21:43
them. Yeah. And it was it was around
01:21:46
this time and I I I again didn't know
01:21:48
anything about this until the book but
01:21:50
um there was like a big like nationwide
01:21:52
rumor about you and Buck Shelfford
01:21:53
having a fight. Yeah. Never had
01:21:55
laughable. Never. With all due respect,
01:21:57
I'd waste you, right? You You think I'd
01:21:59
be dumb enough to take him on, right? I
01:22:02
mean, you know, we It was And look,
01:22:05
again, I don't remember this that
01:22:06
vividly. It was a long time ago now, but
01:22:08
you know, it was a game um was it
01:22:11
Scotland? No, it wasn't. Oh, it might
01:22:13
have been Scotland. And um and the game
01:22:17
had I think we' won, but it hadn't gone
01:22:19
that well. And you know, Buck made a
01:22:20
comment about about um he's you know,
01:22:23
asked by media and his
01:22:26
response was a typical direct buck
01:22:28
comment about you know me being the
01:22:30
general in the eyes and ears and it
01:22:31
wasn't complimentary but it wasn't meant
01:22:32
to be derogatory either it was just a
01:22:34
statement of fact and he would have been
01:22:35
right but all of a sudden this is like
01:22:37
there's fisty cuffs I mean it never
01:22:39
happened but that rumor still persists
01:22:41
to this day right that it's still it's
01:22:43
it's rubbish and Buck would Buck would
01:22:45
confirm that it did not happen right and
01:22:48
and look he got you know he got dropped
01:22:51
and he clearly wasn't happy about it and
01:22:53
um Um and and with some people that
01:22:56
resonates to this day. You see, it's
01:22:58
like, well, so you got to got to let
01:22:59
things go. The the sad thing at all of
01:23:01
that is that look, Buck was a great
01:23:03
leader and a great player, right? Um and
01:23:06
didn't lose as an all black captain. Um
01:23:09
and and was, you know, a great statesman
01:23:11
for our game. What's often lost in this?
01:23:13
Who was the next number eight? Zenzan
01:23:15
Brookke. M well I mean I felt sorry for
01:23:17
Zen in this period too because he wasn't
01:23:19
getting the recognition he deserved for
01:23:21
being a very a number of a very
01:23:23
different skill set um but an emerging
01:23:26
talent going on to become a great player
01:23:28
that we could all see. So I felt a bit
01:23:30
sorry for Zinn in this narrative because
01:23:32
he just he didn't get the recognism that
01:23:34
he he deserved. It was all on Buck and I
01:23:36
get that but it was just you know Zinny
01:23:39
did all right. He had a hell of a
01:23:40
career. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um
01:23:42
yeah, but it must have been hard and and
01:23:43
yeah, the whole I I I do um remember the
01:23:46
bring back Buck campaign. It became like
01:23:47
what you'd call a meme. You still see it
01:23:49
occasionally, which in a funny way is
01:23:51
great. I mean, you know, I mean, as I
01:23:53
said, I mean, I I mean, I don't see Buck
01:23:56
that often. And and you know, a lot of
01:23:58
us I mean, we got a group together to go
01:24:00
down to Al Alex's memorial service,
01:24:02
right? And you know, um um Grizz dropped
01:24:05
Buck, right? Um, and it was, you know,
01:24:08
it wasn't, um, you know, there would, it
01:24:11
wasn't easy at the time. It's probably
01:24:13
the wrong word, but I'll use that. But
01:24:15
when I circulate the boys an email
01:24:17
saying, "Hey guys, we all played with
01:24:18
them." You know, the group was, you
01:24:21
know, I'd like to go down. You want to
01:24:22
come? Well, within a heartbeat, bang,
01:24:23
bang, they come back. Buck is one of
01:24:24
them. Yep. I'm in. Right. And so you you
01:24:27
you wouldn't I mean, that's just the
01:24:29
man, right? That's who the man is,
01:24:31
right? So a group of us went, eight of
01:24:32
us went down, right, to go and um honor
01:24:35
Alex because we had had great success
01:24:38
with him. Great time. He was our all
01:24:39
black coach. Um sadly not with us
01:24:42
anymore. He had had a private uh a
01:24:45
private family um service. Um but at
01:24:48
Glen Mark and it was cool, you know, go
01:24:49
down went and we got all black manager
01:24:51
at the time uh with Alex, a guy called
01:24:53
John Sturgeon. Sturgeis nearly 90. He
01:24:56
was in a hospital in Christ Church and
01:24:58
so groupers went and saw Sturgey um
01:25:00
which we love that man and so he was you
01:25:02
know there were tears when we everyone
01:25:03
saw each other and then we went out to
01:25:05
Glenmark where most of us had never
01:25:06
been. So that was pretty cool to go out
01:25:08
the Glen Mark rugby club and you know
01:25:10
see some old players that we you know
01:25:12
like Warrick Taylor and Victor Simpson
01:25:14
and you know John Mills and John Bucken
01:25:16
and guys like that we'd played Donnie
01:25:18
Hayes was there. Um it's just great to
01:25:20
catch up with those guys in a you know
01:25:22
situation that you know we wish Alex was
01:25:24
still with us but you know that time
01:25:25
comes to us all and it was a great way
01:25:27
to you know remember Alex and honor him
01:25:29
and then for for some of us to have a
01:25:31
yarn we hadn't seen each other in years.
01:25:34
Oh how good
01:25:37
during that period in um ' 91 92 like
01:25:40
how was your mental health in that
01:25:41
period? Uh fine I think. Yeah. I mean,
01:25:44
if I think back now, judged by today's
01:25:46
standards, I they might have classed me
01:25:48
as depressed, but I don't remember that
01:25:49
at all. Um, you know, I was a I was a
01:25:52
farm boy, bought up, you know, bought up
01:25:54
to be a bit staunch in that area. Um,
01:25:57
what was the time, wasn't it? It was
01:25:58
hard. Yeah. Just hard enough. Yeah. No,
01:26:00
no, to be honest, I played I played all
01:26:02
my career with John Cuban. I didn't see
01:26:05
them his mental health issues. Not once
01:26:07
was a witness that I could say, I got a
01:26:09
mate who's struggling, which is more on
01:26:10
me than him. Um, but I never noticed it.
01:26:13
And yet look look at the stories that
01:26:15
you know JK and he's changed mental
01:26:17
health for men in this country. That's
01:26:18
why God has kned not for his services to
01:26:20
rugby though deserved it for that for
01:26:21
his services to mental health because he
01:26:23
made it okay for men to be vulnerable
01:26:27
in a big way. You've had him on the
01:26:28
podcast. I've talked about him to
01:26:29
numerous other people. Like I can't
01:26:31
imagine how terrifying it was for him to
01:26:33
speak publicly about it when he did cuz
01:26:35
I mean it's he he set the platform now
01:26:38
where it's very easy for men to talk
01:26:39
about vulnerability. So we talk in the
01:26:41
old black now we talk about
01:26:42
vulnerability right because
01:26:43
vulnerability is a strength not a
01:26:44
weakness right but we were all meant to
01:26:46
be staunch that was way bought up
01:26:48
actually you need help ask for help it's
01:26:50
not a weakness I mean I can remember um
01:26:53
and look um JK is probably the former
01:26:56
player I talk to most nowadays right um
01:26:59
but um when he became blues coach we
01:27:02
we've both got houses at W Beach and the
01:27:04
surf club had rung and they for
01:27:05
fundraiser over Chris has wanted to set
01:27:07
up a little function and they asked me
01:27:09
would I come and speak I said, "Well,
01:27:10
yeah, but me alone's not enough." Um,
01:27:13
and I only do question and answer. I
01:27:14
don't do sort of keynote speaking. So,
01:27:16
I'll ring I'll ring JK because if we get
01:27:17
the both of us, it might work. So, I
01:27:19
rang JK. He said, "Yeah, mate. No
01:27:21
problem." So, I said to Surf Club
01:27:23
president, you know, we need an MC. We
01:27:24
need SP we need the microphone, need it
01:27:26
all set up properly, so that would work
01:27:28
in the room. We're in the surf club
01:27:30
anyway. JK drives down as he's a head
01:27:32
coach. He drives down um and the Blues
01:27:35
would turn up and no MC. There is a
01:27:38
speaker in that, but there's no MC and
01:27:39
I'm I don't like doing this stuff. JK
01:27:42
said, "Foxy, I got this." So, he gets up
01:27:44
on stage. We're in Chief's country,
01:27:46
right? And his blues gear. And he just
01:27:49
said, "How like my kit?" Well, everyone
01:27:51
laughed. And um anyway, we just we
01:27:54
talked rugby off the floor for about 40
01:27:56
minutes and then had a wee break and
01:27:58
then came back and JK did a mental
01:28:00
health thing. I told you for the next 40
01:28:02
minutes he just talked let people ask
01:28:04
questions and talk you it was
01:28:05
unbelievable what I saw him do um you
01:28:08
know to a point guy a guy asked a
01:28:10
question and JK said mate are you okay
01:28:14
cuz I can see you're hurting for so
01:28:16
while we'd had 40 minutes of laughter we
01:28:19
had 40 minutes of deathly quiet it was
01:28:21
remarkable um how the response was in
01:28:24
this room and he's got better and better
01:28:26
at it but I just I I was witness to it
01:28:28
that day and thought wow Um, and look
01:28:31
what he's done for, as I said, for for
01:28:33
men's mental health in this country.
01:28:35
Yeah. Did he tell Did he tell the
01:28:36
incredible story he tells about um the
01:28:39
Iceman, Michael Jones?
01:28:42
So, they you were probably on the same
01:28:43
tour. So, they were in Argentina. Yeah.
01:28:46
Staying staying on this I think the
01:28:47
seventh floor he said of some hotel and
01:28:49
he was contemplating like just diving up
01:28:51
the Sorry. I heard this recently. I
01:28:53
heard this recently. Yeah. It might have
01:28:55
been It might have been um on your
01:28:57
podcast. He did. It was a podcast I
01:28:58
heard him on. one of the new one talked
01:29:00
about jumping jumping out window. Yeah,
01:29:02
I only heard that recently. Yeah. Yeah.
01:29:03
And Sir Michael Jones was on the bed
01:29:05
next to him. They were rooming at the
01:29:06
time and just out of the blue um he just
01:29:09
said um JK, you've got a good heart.
01:29:11
Yeah. And um that's what stopped him in
01:29:13
that moment and kept him going for the
01:29:14
next one. It's powerful stuff. Yeah, it
01:29:16
is really incredible. Yeah. What was
01:29:18
What was he like? Are you still in touch
01:29:19
with Sir Michael? Yeah, occasionally. I
01:29:21
mean, when Ryan won the other day, the
01:29:22
Iceman, there's a text comes from the
01:29:24
Iceman. So again, I mean, he's a busy
01:29:25
man, right? Um, and we're all busy with
01:29:27
our own families and our own lives. Um,
01:29:29
but we've all got each other's numbers
01:29:30
and so it's not, you know, as I said, I
01:29:32
mean, I ring JK regularly. Um, Gary
01:29:35
Witten, Wrigley, Joe Stanley. Um, um,
01:29:40
JK, AJ, Joe. Yeah, those guys. They're
01:29:42
regular ones, right? Ben McCall's got an
01:29:44
email circular going. He regularly keeps
01:29:46
in touch with the boys. Terry, right, we
01:29:48
saw recently, but Terry's been overseas
01:29:49
for a long time, but is back now, you
01:29:51
know, caught up with Stevia McDall. I
01:29:53
mean just you know nothing changes you
01:29:56
know nothing changes but we just all got
01:29:59
all got our busy lives but um so it's
01:30:02
cool it's cool because that that that
01:30:04
closeness is through a shared experience
01:30:06
and a bond created from those
01:30:08
experiences um and you know we're all
01:30:11
you know and we got a lot more to talk
01:30:12
about we don't talk about rugby we all
01:30:14
talk about family you know because we
01:30:16
all sort of know what each other's doing
01:30:17
in that regard and you know a lot of us
01:30:19
are grandparents now so you know that's
01:30:21
the great joy we can talk about our and
01:30:23
kids. We're not talking about footy
01:30:24
anymore. So, well, I suppose when you
01:30:26
get to if you're lucky enough,
01:30:27
privileged enough to get to this stage
01:30:28
of life, you realize what's important
01:30:30
and you know what, reminiscing is is
01:30:33
fun. Um, but yeah, it's not No, I mean,
01:30:36
it is fun, but it's not. I mean, life
01:30:38
end of the day. You know, the family is
01:30:40
the most important thing in your life.
01:30:42
Um and that's you know one of the
01:30:43
reasons that you know ultimately the key
01:30:46
reason I stepped away from being
01:30:47
involved with the All Blacks. Um in
01:30:50
20202
01:30:52
I think that's right. Um where I had
01:30:56
um yeah I'm trying to work this out now.
01:30:58
2019 20. Yeah 22 it was. um I stepped
01:31:01
away because I just been I'd had 40
01:31:03
years of the game at first class level
01:31:06
um playing done some you know media work
01:31:09
television work um sele coaching
01:31:11
selecting with the odd little break in
01:31:13
between but it was just time you know
01:31:15
with grandkids you know how to spell
01:31:17
love to your kids t same for the
01:31:18
grandkids so just you know and for a dal
01:31:21
who I'd taken up so much of her time
01:31:22
over 40 years and we've been together
01:31:24
you know we've been married for 40 years
01:31:25
it was just and my I just want to be at
01:31:28
home I'm happy I'm happy at home go to
01:31:30
our beach house, work around home, play
01:31:32
with the grandkids, you know, it's it's
01:31:34
simple, but there's just so much reward
01:31:36
out of that. Jeez, why beach must be
01:31:38
like a hot bed of ex all blacks. It is.
01:31:40
It is. It's a real hot Gatlin's got a
01:31:42
place there, doesn't he? Getty's had a
01:31:44
place there. Smithy lives there, right?
01:31:46
Mills has got a place there. Graham
01:31:48
Pervvis has brought not that long ago,
01:31:49
but Pervy's actually a valley boy by
01:31:52
lives in Wellington, but a Tims Valley
01:31:53
Boy by by birth. Um um I've seen uh who
01:31:57
else is around there now? Um get I mean
01:32:01
Kevin Schuler was there for a while not
01:32:03
there anymore. Um Jeff Hines has got a
01:32:05
place there. Remember him played for
01:32:07
Wetto. Um All Black at age 19 from
01:32:10
number seven. Hines is there. Um there's
01:32:12
a great little bar there um that Bryce
01:32:15
Beavenon who's a former um Oakland
01:32:17
player and varsity player who's um was a
01:32:19
prop and Bryce's done various things but
01:32:22
he's just set up a little bar in the
01:32:24
main street um and it hums. It
01:32:27
absolutely harms. And Brycy just turns
01:32:30
up to work in jandles, shorts, t-shirt,
01:32:32
and an apron. Um, spends probably more
01:32:35
time drinking with the patrons. And you
01:32:36
you just got a bit of chalkboard on the
01:32:38
bar and your your bloody your tabs
01:32:40
there. You chalk it up. Oh, that'll be
01:32:42
50 bucks. I mean, it's it's hilarious.
01:32:44
It's absolutely But we all we all But
01:32:46
often you've seen I've been in there,
01:32:48
you know, with JK Smithy, Joe, Jeff
01:32:51
Hines, me, Millsy, all in the bar
01:32:54
together. It's just Oh, I tell you who's
01:32:55
Bryce Lawrence, the former referee's got
01:32:57
a place there. Uh Stevie Dolman. So, um
01:32:59
the the not Stevie Dolman. Um
01:33:03
James Dolman, the referee, right? He's
01:33:06
got a place. Well, his parents got a
01:33:07
place there. So, it's not just the
01:33:09
players. There's some some color
01:33:11
referees got places there, too. Good.
01:33:13
That's good. That's a great great place.
01:33:15
Hey, so in in 1994, you were on I I
01:33:18
watched this the other day on um there's
01:33:20
a website called NZ on screen. Um, you
01:33:22
were on the greatest reality show of all
01:33:24
time, This Is Your Life. Um, yeah. When
01:33:28
was the last time you watched that? Uh,
01:33:29
just recently, actually. Did you? Why?
01:33:32
Because, um, um, we' had lunch in the
01:33:35
December. Dave Morrison and I with with
01:33:37
Lorraine, you know, um, Marty's partner.
01:33:40
Um, and we we try and catch up with
01:33:42
Lorraine at least a couple of times a
01:33:44
year. um hadn't always worked, but um
01:33:47
we'd got together at lunch and when um
01:33:49
within a day of that, Lraine just sent a
01:33:51
link through. So that's and cuz Marty
01:33:55
was was part of that as well. So I just
01:33:58
clicked the phone and Adele and I we
01:34:00
just sat we sat on the couch and watched
01:34:02
it. I hadn't I I don't think I'd
01:34:04
rewatched it. I can remember one
01:34:06
Christmas we had a lot of people around,
01:34:08
my family around and some others, and
01:34:10
this is in the VHS days. Um and Nadal
01:34:12
had um um put um the VHS on. I don't
01:34:17
know how this happened. The kids might
01:34:18
have been funnering through and found
01:34:19
the tape and plucked it on. And there
01:34:21
was a lot of people who hadn't seen it.
01:34:23
And by this I mean there was probably 15
01:34:25
or 16 people at our place. And the these
01:34:28
kids they just and a lot of them kids
01:34:30
just sat down and watched it because
01:34:31
they they hadn't seen it. They didn't
01:34:32
really know about it. So which was nice,
01:34:34
right? It's a nice memory to have, you
01:34:36
know, big surprise. Um um but yeah, a
01:34:40
privilege to to be to be recognized that
01:34:42
way. Yeah. And it's um I mean you're one
01:34:45
of an elect group of New Zealanders that
01:34:46
got to be a guest on that show. It's
01:34:48
like due to costs involved and other
01:34:50
logistics. It's never going to happen
01:34:51
again, but it's a wonderful format of a
01:34:53
show. Did you Was it honestly a
01:34:55
surprise? Yeah, for me it was. How How
01:34:57
can you I had no idea. I honestly had it
01:35:00
was Well, so as I understand it, there's
01:35:04
a lot goes on behind the scenes, right?
01:35:05
cuz they need um they need um my you
01:35:09
know need information from people. So a
01:35:11
lot of people get talked about and they
01:35:13
they are sworn to secrecy. Adele was
01:35:15
obviously talked to and she was sworn to
01:35:17
secrecy. Um I mean and I remember this
01:35:20
now but at the time an ad had come on TV
01:35:23
about it and and and Adele would be
01:35:25
saying to Ryan um change your channel,
01:35:27
change your channel. And now it sort of
01:35:30
I should have worked it out but I didn't
01:35:31
at the time. So Ryan Ryan was in on it,
01:35:33
but as a four-year-old, it's like I know
01:35:34
what was it, 94, four, seven, seveny
01:35:37
old, right? Um,
01:35:40
how do you do this? Um Um, Adele's mom
01:35:43
and dad knew about it because they were
01:35:45
initially going to look after the kids
01:35:46
while Adele was on stage. So all of it
01:35:47
was all Clanderstein and I knew nothing.
01:35:50
I genuinely knew nothing. So when Bob
01:35:52
Parker came and stood beside me was a
01:35:54
big surprise cuz I just thought it was a
01:35:56
rubby function to honor, you know, a
01:35:58
good or all those guys that got
01:36:00
together. But there wasn't there was
01:36:01
something else sitting behind it. Do you
01:36:03
still have the book? The actual This is
01:36:04
your life. Yeah, I don't I will have it
01:36:07
because I've got a lot of that at home.
01:36:08
It'll be tucked away somewhere. It
01:36:10
doesn't have front and center. I don't
01:36:11
It's not how generally our household
01:36:13
works, but it's tucked in there
01:36:15
somewhere. Yeah, I can get that about
01:36:17
the the household. You mentioned
01:36:18
something before about Adele not letting
01:36:19
you hang up. I think she'd be more
01:36:21
relaxed about it now, but she didn't
01:36:22
want necessarily this taken up, right?
01:36:24
But yeah, we have talked more recently
01:36:25
about doing it, but I probably won't get
01:36:28
round to it. I'm probably just happy
01:36:30
where it is. And you know, I think in
01:36:32
time that'll be a handme-down that maybe
01:36:34
it'll be more the grandkids will will
01:36:35
like it more that when they're at at an
01:36:37
age where they can perhaps reconcile
01:36:40
this be more important to them. Yeah.
01:36:42
You also your memories they generally
01:36:43
sit in here, don't they? Yeah. Well,
01:36:45
here and here.
01:36:47
Um and then the um the MBE in 1995,
01:36:50
member of British Empire. Yeah. It was a
01:36:52
huge honor. Yeah. Huge honor. Yeah. um
01:36:54
you know um get a you get a letter
01:36:56
asking someone obviously work behind the
01:36:59
scenes to nominate you and you go
01:37:01
through a process and lucky and know I
01:37:03
didn't know about any of that you just
01:37:04
get a letter that you've been nominated
01:37:05
and you know do you accept and then you
01:37:07
do you accept and then you get then you
01:37:09
go to you know and then um um the
01:37:12
ceremony at government house down in
01:37:13
Wellington so we went down my mother
01:37:15
came down as well as Adele so that was a
01:37:17
really neat time another neat time that
01:37:19
happened is my father-in-law the late MV
01:37:21
Wallace also got it um he's been passed
01:37:24
for a while now, but MV wasn't well
01:37:26
enough at the time when it happened. So,
01:37:27
we held a function at our home and the
01:37:30
governor general came. Sylvia Cartrite
01:37:31
came to our home um and um MV got his
01:37:36
ceremony done at home with all a lot of
01:37:38
his old cricket mates and friends and
01:37:40
cousins and our family was a really neat
01:37:42
I can't remember the year exactly, but
01:37:44
it was while MV was still alive, but
01:37:46
just not well enough healthwise to
01:37:48
actually get on a plane and go to
01:37:49
Wellington.
01:37:50
Yeah. Did those did those things in '94
01:37:52
and '95 so this is your life and then
01:37:54
the MBA did that sort of like remove the
01:37:56
sting from a couple of years earlier the
01:37:59
sting had gone I mean not even thinking
01:38:01
about that you know I mean that's you
01:38:03
know um as I said in the start when you
01:38:06
play play oh it's like a lot of things
01:38:09
in life right but you I mean it's it's
01:38:11
ups and downs it's not always up you're
01:38:12
going to have downs I had periods where
01:38:14
it wasn't so good and but more periods
01:38:16
where it was good so um um but that
01:38:19
because you're not competing anymore.
01:38:22
That's it does go and you you don't
01:38:24
forget but you just park them away and
01:38:26
you know I guess you choose not to bloom
01:38:28
and remember unless someone like you
01:38:29
brings them up but anyway
01:38:31
sorry. Yeah. So then um Jeez. Yeah.
01:38:35
You've been so generous with your time.
01:38:36
I just turned the air con on and No
01:38:37
problem. How you going? You right? Yeah.
01:38:39
Good. Do you enjoy reflecting or just on
01:38:41
some aspects of it and not some aspects
01:38:43
of it or I don't mind having a yard.
01:38:45
Right. It's bloody great. You're a dream
01:38:47
guest for me. Well, we don't get we're
01:38:48
at an age now where we don't get this
01:38:50
opportunity very often. So, um I mean
01:38:52
it's not it's not this is the only I
01:38:54
don't even class this as media. We were
01:38:56
talking before we did we did this that
01:38:58
um I just don't engage anymore because
01:39:00
it's other people's turn and you know um
01:39:03
the world we live in, you know, why why
01:39:04
would you put yourself at risk now
01:39:06
because just the way it is. Um you know,
01:39:09
particularly if you've got a strong
01:39:10
opinion, you're going to get, you know,
01:39:12
you're going to get a whole lot of
01:39:13
people who, you know, want to lop your
01:39:14
head off here. Um but this is good
01:39:17
because it's long form and it's just a
01:39:18
yarn, right? and and it generally is
01:39:20
reminiscing which is cuz it's not we
01:39:22
don't don't it's not how we live you
01:39:24
know we live in the present with family
01:39:26
and work and you know um yeah other
01:39:29
opportunities we might get you know like
01:39:30
D and I going to travel to see Ryan play
01:39:32
occasionally and that sort of stuff it's
01:39:34
all part so the other stuff just sort of
01:39:35
gets gets parked up but it's part of
01:39:38
your history so it's there and very
01:39:40
occasionally you get the get the chance
01:39:42
to have a yarn about it. Yeah. Yes. So
01:39:44
after playing you you you dabbled in
01:39:46
coaching for a bit eh? Yeah. That was
01:39:48
quite successful, right? Assistant
01:39:49
coach. You almost Did you roll your eyes
01:39:52
then or No, it was Yeah, I didn't really
01:39:53
I didn't I fell in I didn't want to
01:39:55
coach, right? Um I didn't because it was
01:39:58
not something I chose. I I was running a
01:39:59
business and you know, I'd chosen to
01:40:00
stop because Ryan was six and I need to
01:40:02
be around and I was running a business
01:40:04
and it was time for the All Blacks,
01:40:05
right? And I needed to be at home more.
01:40:06
So, there was a number of factors that
01:40:08
went into my retirement decision at the
01:40:09
end of 1993. Um but it was just um
01:40:15
what was the question again? Oh, just
01:40:17
touching upon your coaching. So you
01:40:18
coach. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So So yeah, so
01:40:21
what? Yeah, I started with Oakland in
01:40:22
1999 coaching. So I'd stopped playing
01:40:26
not that long. Um but I um Oakland was
01:40:29
seeking a new coach. Um and I was rung
01:40:32
by the CEO and asked to apply. Hadn't
01:40:34
even thought about it, but I was I
01:40:36
running a business and thought I this
01:40:37
will take a bit of time, but I can make
01:40:38
the time and this team's struggling and
01:40:40
it's a team I love cuz I', you know, had
01:40:42
a lot of success with it. And you know,
01:40:44
Ego says, "Yeah, I think I can help." So
01:40:45
I put my name for went to an interview
01:40:47
process thought the interview had gone
01:40:48
pretty well and then got run by the CEO
01:40:50
and said oh would you consider being
01:40:51
assistant coach? I said well it's not
01:40:52
the job I applied for. I said who's a
01:40:54
head coach? He said a guy called Wayne
01:40:56
Peac. I knew Wayne not very well. I said
01:40:58
well before I commit I need to talk to
01:41:00
Wayne because I need to understand how
01:41:01
we're going to gel. So it became very
01:41:03
apparent um that it was going to work.
01:41:06
So Wayne and I got together and you know
01:41:08
we had the champ we won the championship
01:41:09
in 1999
01:41:11
first year together. We had a good side
01:41:13
though. We had a lot of experienced
01:41:14
guys. So I think we played that we we
01:41:17
played off that pretty well. You know
01:41:19
2000 and 2001 we struggled but made the
01:41:22
semi-finals each year but got beaten in
01:41:23
the semi-finals as we started to have to
01:41:25
rebuild a little bit and then a fellow
01:41:27
called Henry all of a sudden became
01:41:28
available and um come back from Wales
01:41:31
and wanted wanted a job and wanted to
01:41:34
help and um Wayne was you know never
01:41:37
felt threatened by someone just said we
01:41:38
you know he was asked and yep absolutely
01:41:40
we can use this man. We won the
01:41:41
championship in 2002 and 2003. Would we
01:41:44
have won it without Graeme? Don't know,
01:41:45
you know. But did we win it with him?
01:41:47
Yes, we did. Right. So, um, no doubt
01:41:49
that was the pedigree of the man and how
01:41:50
good he was. But, yeah. So, you know,
01:41:52
three years out of five, we won
01:41:53
championships. So, it wasn't bad. In
01:41:55
between that had a year with the Blues
01:41:56
and 2002.
01:41:58
And I wasn't really I wasn't um NPC
01:42:02
Oakland was a team I love. The Blues
01:42:03
wasn't I never played for the Blues even
01:42:05
though it was our region. So it wasn't
01:42:07
that, you know, that didn't motivate me
01:42:10
and it was just and that was a rugby
01:42:12
circus on the road. That's the way I
01:42:13
thought of it. The NPC get home a lot.
01:42:15
It was a lot less demanding. You know,
01:42:17
at that time you're going to have to be
01:42:19
committed for seven months of the year.
01:42:21
But Rain encouraged me to apply for um
01:42:24
an assistant coach's role and just said,
01:42:26
"You just got to show you're ambitious."
01:42:27
And I said, "Well, I don't really want
01:42:28
to do it." He said, "Well, you just got
01:42:28
to show you won't get it." Well, I got
01:42:30
it cuz Peter Sloan said, "Foxy, I want
01:42:32
you." Oh, what can I do? I applied, but
01:42:35
I couldn't say no. I'm like Sloan is a
01:42:37
good I was a good man and a good coach,
01:42:39
you know, and it was like but you know
01:42:41
um I
01:42:44
um I just it was too hard, right? Too
01:42:48
demanding on the family and all of that.
01:42:50
So it was just like I told Sloan at the
01:42:53
end of it, this is, you know, it's not
01:42:54
you mate, it's not the team, it's
01:42:56
nothing. It's just from a lifestyle
01:42:57
point of view, this just doesn't work.
01:42:59
And um so I stepped aside and one of the
01:43:01
guys who took my role was Graeme Henry
01:43:03
the next year and they won it in 20 2003
01:43:07
you know so I I didn't I didn't want to
01:43:09
go coaching I sort of got fell into it
01:43:11
got asked um wanted to help um but it
01:43:14
was relatively shortlived and when I
01:43:16
gave it up it was in I remember walking
01:43:17
with Graeme Henry we were I'm pretty
01:43:19
sure we were playing Northland in 2003
01:43:20
on Eden Park morning walkth through on
01:43:23
Saturday and I was walking out of the
01:43:25
changing room onto the field with Ted. I
01:43:26
said to Ted, I said, "Um, mate, I'm
01:43:29
going to I'm giving this up."
01:43:32
And he said, "Um, doesn't surprise me."
01:43:35
I thought not the answer. I thought I
01:43:37
thought, you know, I thought he'd say,
01:43:39
you know, why do you want to do that?
01:43:41
Um, but he said, no, it doesn't surprise
01:43:42
me. I said, why do you say that, Ted? He
01:43:45
said, "My experience is that the guys
01:43:46
who played at a high level like you did
01:43:48
and when and go where you've got control
01:43:51
and then go coaching where at times you
01:43:52
sit up there in the box and you don't
01:43:54
have control, you've done everything you
01:43:56
can, but there's not much you can do
01:43:57
from that point. It's a real struggle
01:43:58
cuz you your influence is more as a
01:44:00
player on the field." He was dead right.
01:44:03
I I struggle with that emotion. I I
01:44:05
understood the emotional roller coaster,
01:44:06
but I struggled it where I couldn't be
01:44:08
in the middle of it trying to influence
01:44:09
it. You'd say as a coach you can, but
01:44:11
you do everything that you believe is
01:44:13
right to prepare your team. Go and sit
01:44:14
in the box and you'd sit there suddenly
01:44:16
think think what the f is going on. We
01:44:18
didn't train this during the week. And I
01:44:20
just I struggled with that and and look,
01:44:22
the time was too too much. Anyway, it
01:44:24
was time it was just time to go. Are you
01:44:26
are you Some might say uh you're a
01:44:28
control freak.
01:44:30
Uh well, yeah, maybe maybe my my wife
01:44:34
would probably suggest that sometimes,
01:44:36
but um no. Um, I mean, I'm more a
01:44:40
perfectionist and a control freak, I
01:44:41
think. You know, I sort of maybe I have
01:44:43
a certain way of doing things and I
01:44:45
expect everything to be done that way
01:44:47
around, you know, um, and that and the
01:44:49
outcome you get the outcome. Well, you
01:44:51
don't always get the outcome you want as
01:44:53
I've talked about numerous times. So,
01:44:54
and I just I needed to get off the
01:44:56
emotional roller coaster and in life
01:44:58
that was too hard, you know. I like to
01:45:00
live life just drifting along a little
01:45:02
hill in a valley rather than a mountain
01:45:04
in the canyon, you know. So, um, yeah,
01:45:06
it was just, yeah, time to get off the
01:45:07
roller coaster. Did you coach Jonah over
01:45:10
that time at all? No. No. Jonah started
01:45:12
in '94, right?
01:45:14
Um, yeah. God, he was amazing. E, I
01:45:18
every time anyone that has anything to
01:45:19
do with rugies on the podcast, I ask him
01:45:21
about Jonah just in case there's a story
01:45:22
there. I I don't have a story with Jonah
01:45:24
other than, you know, when you find out
01:45:26
his medical history um, and think about
01:45:30
how how that hindered him, but how good
01:45:32
he was with it. Imagine what it would
01:45:34
have been like if he was completely
01:45:35
healthy. Frig, that would have been
01:45:37
scary. Yeah. Like unbelievably scary.
01:45:39
How good he could He was great anyway.
01:45:41
There was more in him if he if his
01:45:44
health was 100% which it wasn't. Wow.
01:45:46
Think about that. Yeah. For such a small
01:45:48
part of his career, he was firing on all
01:45:50
cylinders. E Well, I don't know that he
01:45:51
ever fired on all cylinders. I think the
01:45:53
health thing was pretty evident from the
01:45:54
start. um but kept from us because John
01:45:57
Major was his doctor who you know who
01:46:00
who looked after Jonah and you know the
01:46:02
medical ethics determined privacy and
01:46:04
and and Doc honored that. Um but yeah,
01:46:06
you find out all these years later about
01:46:08
how much Jonah was hampered by it and
01:46:10
but how good he was with it. Well, it's
01:46:12
mindboggling how good he ultimately
01:46:13
could have been. Doc Mayheu, there's
01:46:15
another one we lost recently. I know.
01:46:17
Too many. Too young. 70. Far too young.
01:46:19
Yeah. Um on then your next biggest role
01:46:22
was the um selector. You were a selector
01:46:24
from like 2012 for like 10 years uh to
01:46:27
the middle of 2022 11 and a half years.
01:46:29
That's a that's a long stint. You
01:46:30
obviously enjoyed it and yeah I did. I
01:46:32
mean it was again not something I was
01:46:33
looking just came out of the blue again.
01:46:35
Still remember exactly where I was when
01:46:36
Steve rang me as he was applying for the
01:46:38
All Black job and and just saying you
01:46:40
know Foxy Shag and I you know I knew
01:46:42
Steven not a hell of a well. Not bad
01:46:44
impression by the way. Um and he just
01:46:47
said mate I'd love you to be an all
01:46:48
black selector independent all black
01:46:50
selector. And I was just blown away
01:46:52
because not a phone call I expected.
01:46:54
Anyway, we just I went home and asked
01:46:56
Adele and she said, "Well, you know, you
01:46:57
love this team, don't you?" And I said,
01:46:58
"I do." And she said, "Well, way you
01:47:00
go." Um, and I had a real belief in
01:47:03
Steve. Um, you know, what Graeme had
01:47:05
told me and that there was a a real
01:47:07
belief. And anyway, um, I fell into it.
01:47:10
Um, was, you know, sort of had eight
01:47:12
years with him, you know, winning a
01:47:14
World Cup in 2015, you know, getting
01:47:15
beaten in a semi-final in 2019. So, it
01:47:17
sort of mirrored my career in a way. Um
01:47:19
and then you know I was stepping away um
01:47:22
after Japan because it was just time the
01:47:24
team needed new blood and
01:47:26
um I thought they needed new blood and
01:47:28
and that but you know Fos um Fos rang me
01:47:30
when he was a preferred candidate and
01:47:32
I'd told Fos that you know he'd asked me
01:47:34
if I get the job mate you know would you
01:47:35
come there I said no mate but it's not
01:47:37
about you it's just about where I'm at
01:47:39
in life and I think the team needs a
01:47:41
change and anyway um Fos ry and said
01:47:44
mate um I'm the preferred candidate and
01:47:46
I need your help for a year cuz he
01:47:47
wanted Joe Smith and you discussion and
01:47:50
Joe were fruitful in terms of Joe would
01:47:51
be available at some point. We thought
01:47:53
it would only be a year. Well, it turned
01:47:54
into two and a half and Fos just didn't
01:47:56
want to put he wanted he believed in the
01:47:58
independence of a select. He just didn't
01:48:00
want to put someone else in for a year
01:48:01
and then when Joe comes on just a guy
01:48:03
have a year and get so it was like we
01:48:05
have some continuity and I love Foster
01:48:07
bits good man. Um, and so I just I I
01:48:10
carried on until finally he got Joe and
01:48:14
what a difference Joe made, you know, as
01:48:16
a man he wanted all the way through and
01:48:17
and and um anyway um nearly won a World
01:48:20
Cup. Should have won a World Cup. Yeah.
01:48:23
Well, as a man that's played played so
01:48:25
much rugby at the top level and then,
01:48:27
you know, been involved in coaching for
01:48:28
a little bit and then selecting like can
01:48:30
how do you watch a game now? Like I
01:48:32
don't watch much. No. No. I mean, you
01:48:34
watch it and enjoy it or if you watch it
01:48:36
again. Yeah. And I and I mean I I get um
01:48:39
uh you get I get um um uh passionate
01:48:42
about the teams I you know that mean
01:48:44
more to me. Um and you say you ride that
01:48:46
high and low and get frustrated when
01:48:47
things aren't going right. What's that
01:48:49
like All Blacks All? Yeah. Yeah. Blues,
01:48:51
right? Um but I can watch you and I
01:48:54
learned with the All Blacks as you watch
01:48:55
dispassionately. So even the team you
01:48:57
support you just you know when you're in
01:48:59
that role you've got to be completely
01:49:00
neutral and dispassionate. So I'd
01:49:02
learned how to I think do that pretty
01:49:04
well. But I don't I don't watch enough a
01:49:06
lot now. One, I don't have much control
01:49:08
of the TV remote at home. But um but you
01:49:11
know, it's just it's not that I don't
01:49:12
care and I don't love it and and that I
01:49:14
just I don't want my time taken up by
01:49:16
it. You know, yes, when the All Blacks
01:49:18
play, I'll certainly be watching live.
01:49:19
Will I go to the test? Maybe. You know,
01:49:22
I get invited along a bit now. I don't
01:49:23
go. I live a long way out of town, a
01:49:24
place called Beachland. So, you know,
01:49:26
that in itself is a mission. You know,
01:49:29
it's it's it's a good half day by the
01:49:31
time we, you know, leave and go and turn
01:49:33
around doing anything. It's just I I'm a
01:49:34
homebody now. I'm happy to be home. You
01:49:37
know, Adele doesn't want to come anyway.
01:49:38
So I don't, you know, otherwise leaving
01:49:40
her on her own. Um so go we'll go down
01:49:43
to a mate's place and watch a game, have
01:49:45
have a have a bourbon or a whiskey or a
01:49:47
rum, you know. So um you know, so again,
01:49:49
I'm not much of a theater go now, but
01:49:51
after 40 years of the game taking up a
01:49:54
lot of time, um my choice to take that
01:49:56
time, too, by the way. Um I'm just, you
01:49:59
know, I'm I'm stepping back.
01:50:02
Yeah. And you seem happy and I'm happy.
01:50:04
Yeah. Yeah. Very. I mean everything. Do
01:50:06
I have regrets or anything? Regrets?
01:50:08
Yeah. You probably have a few. Um, can I
01:50:11
change them though? So there's no point
01:50:12
dwelling on them. Um, what would what
01:50:15
would they be if you had to cherry? You
01:50:17
don't want to go there? No, not really.
01:50:18
I mean I look I was you know I I I guess
01:50:21
you know the back end of my career I
01:50:24
mean I was always demanding of myself
01:50:25
and so the way the teams we played and
01:50:27
we were demanding of each of each other.
01:50:29
I mean, people would still laugh with
01:50:31
the way and some of the names I
01:50:33
mentioned earlier, the way we tr we
01:50:35
pushed each other, like it it was it's
01:50:38
like these guys aren't friends. Like, we
01:50:40
were seriously brutal. Um, but when we
01:50:44
walked off the white paint, it stopped.
01:50:46
So, people couldn't never figure that
01:50:48
out. It was always about getting better.
01:50:50
And so, I became, you know, I was part
01:50:52
of that group being very demanding. And
01:50:54
I guess some other players that came in
01:50:56
from time to time, you know, didn't
01:50:58
react as well to that. Um, I just wasn't
01:51:02
probably wasn't emotionally aware enough
01:51:03
to understand it. Or maybe one of my
01:51:05
mates didn't say to me, "Hey, mate, you
01:51:07
know, well, that guy, you can't do that.
01:51:09
You got to be a little softer with him."
01:51:11
I just probably didn't recognize it
01:51:12
because I was a little bit more black
01:51:13
and white. So, if I have some regrets,
01:51:15
it was be it would be around just maybe
01:51:18
being a little bit too demanding. Um um
01:51:21
I think at the times of players we work
01:51:23
with we help make better um but um and
01:51:27
look those players um there's only one
01:51:29
or two of them I don't you know when I
01:51:31
bump into them we never talk about
01:51:32
things like that but if I have and I'm
01:51:34
not going to name names but probably
01:51:36
that's the one thing I think back
01:51:37
because the number one rule of
01:51:38
management is to treat people properly.
01:51:40
Now, while I wasn't management, I was
01:51:42
playing and maybe my motive was right to
01:51:45
help push them to get better so the team
01:51:47
gets better. Maybe the way I went about
01:51:49
it was just okay, didn't recognize that
01:51:51
you can't treat everyone the same.
01:51:53
Whereas the environment I grew up in,
01:51:54
that's what we did. That's what we did.
01:51:56
We didn't spend that much time together,
01:51:57
so we just that's the way and but we
01:51:59
were great mates. We could let that go.
01:52:01
Maybe some players found that a little
01:52:02
bit harder to let go than others. So,
01:52:05
again, not litigating names. It was
01:52:06
probably the one thing I think would I
01:52:08
do that a bit differently? probably.
01:52:10
Well, I think I think that's a as a man
01:52:11
in his 60s, I think that's a nice regret
01:52:13
to have because it means you've evolved
01:52:14
and you know, you've maybe softened a
01:52:16
bit or changed as a person. Yeah. Well,
01:52:18
I didn't I didn't learn that the number
01:52:20
one rule of management is to treat
01:52:21
people properly until much later when I
01:52:23
Graeme Henry talk about it um you know
01:52:26
at a speech I was sitting at and he
01:52:27
spoke this I thought actually that
01:52:28
resonates. So, what's your relationship
01:52:30
with vulnerability like now? Like
01:52:32
there's been a couple of points on the
01:52:33
podcast where you've got emotional
01:52:34
talking about um yeah the late Martin
01:52:36
Crowe, but have you got like a good
01:52:38
inner circle of friends and some people
01:52:39
you can talk to about about serious
01:52:42
stuff? Um yep. Let your walls down. Uh
01:52:44
yep. But I don't I mean generally I'm
01:52:46
very satisfied with where I'm at. So I
01:52:48
don't those conversations don't happen.
01:52:51
But I know you know I know Adele's sort
01:52:54
of you know at times might have been
01:52:56
worried about
01:52:57
you're a bit shortteered. um you know
01:53:00
you're a bit stressed um what's going on
01:53:03
and I'm sort of not that keen to talk
01:53:05
about it but she she has rung JK a
01:53:07
couple of times and then I'll get my
01:53:09
mate call me you okay buddy n I've
01:53:12
probably had that a couple of times to
01:53:13
be honest so it's not it's not really
01:53:15
but that's you know but we have you know
01:53:18
when when when
01:53:20
um things happen in people's lives the
01:53:22
good things we all yep well done bud you
01:53:24
know grandkids ringing congratulation or
01:53:27
achievement or something but at At the
01:53:29
same time when something happens because
01:53:30
we're at the time of life where deaths
01:53:32
are happening around us of family
01:53:34
members and they're all people we knew
01:53:35
we're all in touch with each other. Um
01:53:38
so I mean I at the moment I you know
01:53:41
life for me is just trundling along.
01:53:44
It's not even hills and valleys now.
01:53:45
It's a nice little bling nice little
01:53:47
flat plane with a little little bloody
01:53:49
little hump you got to go down and up.
01:53:50
Um so yeah just yeah I mean I'm again
01:53:54
I'm you know I think I'm fortunate you
01:53:56
know got a good family around me. made a
01:53:58
very good choice in terms of who I
01:54:00
partner with for life. I'd like to think
01:54:02
Adele made a good choice, too, but
01:54:03
that's for her to judge. Um, get her on.
01:54:06
Got, you know, good good mates, good
01:54:08
parental support. We got, you know, in
01:54:09
in our little community in Beach has got
01:54:11
good mates in Beachlands. Um, so yeah,
01:54:13
just I said, you know, life's life's
01:54:15
good. Yeah, it's neat like seeing this
01:54:18
um this book, The Game, the Gold, which
01:54:19
came out, you know, in the early 90s and
01:54:21
the photos of Adele in the way that she
01:54:23
talks about you and then watching her on
01:54:25
the, you know, the the episode of This
01:54:27
Is Your Life. Yeah, you married right.
01:54:29
Hey, you did good. I I think it was one
01:54:31
of the most important decisions you make
01:54:32
in your life to be honest. We don't
01:54:34
always get that right either. Um but you
01:54:37
know, um we you know, I'd like to think
01:54:39
we're very happily married. We've raised
01:54:40
a good family, got you, as I said, got
01:54:42
grandkids. All the family's doing well.
01:54:45
So, you know, um they've got good
01:54:47
support networks and friends around them
01:54:48
and you know, my daughter's deeply
01:54:50
involved in the community there and the,
01:54:51
you know, the local play center and and
01:54:53
that sort of thing. So, yeah, it's just
01:54:56
um life's good. What What are you most
01:54:58
afraid of at this stage of life? Missing
01:55:00
out.
01:55:01
Um so, um and so this is about death
01:55:05
because happens to us all, you know, we
01:55:08
all have a time on this earth and
01:55:09
eventually I mean, I hope I got a lot of
01:55:11
time left and I'm not worried about
01:55:12
death. I'm worried about missing out.
01:55:14
Yeah. The FOMO. Yeah. The the the kids,
01:55:16
the grandkids. I'd love to see, you
01:55:18
know, the um the grandkids grow and
01:55:22
blossom and start playing sport and, you
01:55:24
know, if we're lucky enough to be, you
01:55:26
know, still around when they get
01:55:27
married, all of those things, you know,
01:55:29
that that's what I guess I'm not not so
01:55:32
much afraid. I'd be sad to miss it. Not
01:55:33
so much afraid to miss it. Yeah. Um
01:55:36
because at the end of the day, I guess,
01:55:37
you know, I'm a bit of fatalist around
01:55:39
this when you know death is final and
01:55:43
you don't know about it. That's what's
01:55:44
left behind. You don't you're not aware
01:55:46
of because they're dealing with it, but
01:55:48
the one who's died is not here anymore.
01:55:50
Um so you you see that enough and so you
01:55:53
say, well, that's the bit you'd be sad
01:55:54
about and sad about missing out more
01:55:56
time. But you know, we all don't have we
01:56:00
all have a length we'll be here and
01:56:01
that'll be determined at some stage in
01:56:03
the future. That's the That's the
01:56:04
certainty for all of us, eh? Like we're
01:56:06
all going to go and um when birth,
01:56:08
death, and taxes.
01:56:10
Oh, taxes. A lot of taxes. A lot of
01:56:13
taxes. But you never know. You never
01:56:14
know when your time's up. But for most
01:56:16
of us, it's a lot less than what we
01:56:18
want. That's it. Yeah, I guess. So,
01:56:20
yeah. Yeah, I guess. So, I I suppose
01:56:22
it's part of it depends on what your
01:56:23
health's like towards the end. Cuz if
01:56:24
you're getting to a point where, you
01:56:26
know, life's not good, you know, I know,
01:56:28
you know, maybe your choice would be if
01:56:30
I had a choice, I'd like, you know, to
01:56:32
not have to suffer this anymore, you
01:56:34
know, if you're healthy enough, well and
01:56:36
good. But we again, um, you know, that's
01:56:38
in the future. We don't know how all
01:56:40
that's going to the way I'm feeling at
01:56:42
the moment. God, knees and bling wrists
01:56:44
and I'm bloody. Yeah. You want to be
01:56:47
like Sir Gra Henry like I see him
01:56:49
marching around him and Ray when they go
01:56:51
for like brisk 10 km walk. Yeah, I walk.
01:56:53
I mean, I walk the dogs six mornings a
01:56:55
week, right? That's part of my routine.
01:56:56
Get out of bed and walk the dogs, right,
01:56:57
for an hour, nearly an hour each day,
01:56:59
but I got a knee replacement that's due
01:57:01
to go again. I'm getting that done in
01:57:02
July. So, it'll set me back for a bit,
01:57:03
but it'll actually push me forward when
01:57:05
I get through the rehab because at the
01:57:06
moment it's a bit niggly and slowing me
01:57:08
down and
01:57:10
um can't do quite what I want to do, but
01:57:12
you know, I'll get that fixed soon. You
01:57:14
you getting still get recognized a bit
01:57:15
in public? What do people talk to you
01:57:16
about? They talk to you about the old
01:57:17
rugby stuff or about Ryan. Yeah. Okay.
01:57:19
Yeah. Which is cool. I love that. Um do
01:57:22
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, if I'm
01:57:24
walking the supermarket aisle and the
01:57:25
All Blacks have just played a test, you
01:57:27
might get someone who who will stop you
01:57:28
or someone you'll bump into, right? Um,
01:57:31
but it's more about if you know about
01:57:33
about Ryan, which is which is great.
01:57:35
That's so cool. And what about legacy?
01:57:37
Is that something you think about at
01:57:38
all? Like how you want to be remembered?
01:57:40
Um,
01:57:42
how would I want to be remembered? Um,
01:57:45
look, I just I I mean, the rugby side
01:57:48
doesn't bother me. It's actually I want
01:57:49
to make sure that that um when you're
01:57:52
not here from a family point of view
01:57:54
that you remembered you know I'm a good
01:57:55
husband, I'm a good dad, I'm a good
01:57:57
granddad that the family will remember
01:58:00
you with great fondness because you gave
01:58:02
time and you cared and you gave love and
01:58:05
that's the legacy for me. You know, the
01:58:07
sport thing, yeah, nice. But I'm not,
01:58:10
you know,
01:58:12
if if the family had blown up and I had
01:58:14
rugby, I'd be terribly sad. As I said,
01:58:17
I'm happy. Um, you know, life's good and
01:58:19
that's because, right, you know, because
01:58:22
of family um not because of the rugby.
01:58:27
I reckon that's a great place to end it.
01:58:30
It's um Yeah, that's No, that's
01:58:32
wonderful. That's really profound. You
01:58:34
know what I like about about this cuz we
01:58:36
didn't we didn't prepare anything. So, I
01:58:38
had no heads up on the questions. So, it
01:58:40
becomes you just go where you want to
01:58:42
go. That's what I like about long form
01:58:43
and it doesn't have to be on a
01:58:44
particular topic. And so you get
01:58:46
surprised with questions that I don't I
01:58:48
mean couple of the lines at the end I
01:58:50
don't think I've ever been asked before.
01:58:52
So it makes you think about what's
01:58:54
important. Yeah. Okay. Well there's
01:58:58
another
01:59:00
I've been cutting some as we go. Like
01:59:02
there's there's a lot that we didn't
01:59:03
talk about the rugby stuff like
01:59:05
Oakland's incredible unbeaten run and
01:59:07
but on the big scheme of things as
01:59:09
you've just said none of that's sort of
01:59:10
really important. There's um there's
01:59:12
there's there's one thing that I do ask
01:59:13
a lot of my guests towards the end. So I
01:59:15
had this guy I don't expect you to know
01:59:16
the name this I had this guy Doo Allen
01:59:18
on the podcast part of team New Zealand
01:59:20
um multisport races done some adventure
01:59:22
races with Richie Mccor. Yes. Okay.
01:59:24
Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking
01:59:24
about. And he he said they um during one
01:59:27
of those um crazy adventure races in the
01:59:29
middle of the night. Richie came up with
01:59:31
like a game for all the teammates to
01:59:32
play and it was um what three words
01:59:34
would you like Oh yeah, I know this
01:59:36
game. It's not a game. It's like yeah I
01:59:38
know this game. what what three words
01:59:39
would you like your friends or family to
01:59:41
be saying at at your funeral? And I I've
01:59:43
asked this to a lot of guests and I've
01:59:44
thought about it more and more over the
01:59:45
time. And it's um it's actually a good
01:59:47
way to reverse engineer your life
01:59:48
because if you know what those words
01:59:49
are, then you can start living in a way
01:59:51
that's going to increase the chance.
01:59:52
This is a this is a question that Steve
01:59:54
used to use when you when
01:59:57
trying to help a player um you'd say,
01:59:59
well, how this is about how your peers.
02:00:01
So, if the player had three words, what
02:00:03
three words do you think they would use?
02:00:04
So, how would you describe yourself in
02:00:06
three words? And then what what do you
02:00:08
think your peers would say? It's an
02:00:09
interesting thing to get alignment,
02:00:10
right? Because that's about
02:00:11
self-awareness. Yes. Because if it's not
02:00:13
aligned, you're not you don't have your
02:00:14
self-awareness about about what your
02:00:16
peers think. So that's sort of very
02:00:17
strongly used in in an all black
02:00:19
environment. Um and you've just hit me
02:00:21
with this. I haven't actually I haven't
02:00:22
actually really thought about it, but um
02:00:25
you know, I mean um the one of the words
02:00:28
would be loyal, right? I'd like to be
02:00:31
I'd like to think that I'm loyal to to
02:00:34
friends and family. um um uh loyal,
02:00:38
caring probably mirrors a little bit. Um
02:00:43
look, and in the end of the day, another
02:00:45
word that probably a lot of my my
02:00:48
contempt would say is driven. Mhm.
02:00:50
Right. Um I mean um I remember watching
02:00:54
Richie's um chasing great and I when I'm
02:00:58
watching LA um the last dance the Jordan
02:01:00
thing there's one word that resonates
02:01:01
with these guys cuz this is again we
02:01:03
talked earlier about what sets the very
02:01:06
best apart well there is a drive in them
02:01:08
that is it is at a different level than
02:01:12
the rest and Richie McCall had that cuz
02:01:15
that's a for me is right and I remember
02:01:18
in the um watching the Jordan thing And
02:01:21
he was asked a similar question and I
02:01:23
said to my wife, I know the word he's
02:01:25
going to use. He's going to say driven.
02:01:26
And look, within about three words,
02:01:28
three third word of the sentence, the
02:01:30
word driven came out cuz you could see
02:01:32
it in him. And I'd like to think that
02:01:34
that that I'm driven, but driven wasn't
02:01:36
just about around sport, you know, was
02:01:38
around, you know, you build you build a
02:01:40
business to help, you got to work, you
02:01:41
got to earn a crust, you got to look
02:01:42
after your family. um and and driven
02:01:45
around family to you know make sure you
02:01:48
you know you you you you you
02:01:51
have a good family, you know, you you're
02:01:53
driven to be do the good things around
02:01:55
family life to raise a good family to
02:01:57
set the right boundaries and values and
02:01:59
all of that sort of thing. Um so yeah,
02:02:01
probably you know loyal, caring and
02:02:03
driven. Three great words. Yeah. Driven
02:02:05
to be the best version of yourself.
02:02:06
Yeah. And as I said, it's not just about
02:02:08
the rate. It wasn't just about the about
02:02:09
the sport. Yeah. Yeah. Great words.
02:02:13
Are you proud of yourself? Yeah. And I'm
02:02:17
proud of what's around me. Um, you know,
02:02:19
especially family, but proud of proud of
02:02:22
mates, good mates, you know, proud of
02:02:24
what I achieved in footy. Proud of what
02:02:26
um I've achieved. I've been in the
02:02:28
business I'm in. It's morphed a little
02:02:29
bit through some shareholding changes
02:02:30
and and a merger, but I started in
02:02:33
January 1986 and I'm still in the same
02:02:35
business more or less. So again, I'm
02:02:37
proud of we've built something that um
02:02:40
you know um has been good for my family,
02:02:43
but good, you know, I'd like to think
02:02:44
good for the employees that work for us
02:02:45
and look looks after their family. You
02:02:48
know, proud proud of um proud of um you
02:02:51
know, the the family that's around me
02:02:53
that um you know, I've been part of
02:02:55
helping create and um you know, I think
02:02:58
that you know, family life is good.
02:03:00
Awesome. By the way, I don't think
02:03:02
Brian's sitting around waiting for an
02:03:03
inheritance. I think he's all right.
02:03:05
might be wanting one from him. No, no. I
02:03:08
mean, look at the end of the day, the
02:03:09
money's a byproduct of success, isn't
02:03:11
it? But, um, you know, he's doing he's
02:03:13
doing well, but you know, we were in the
02:03:15
US recently. The market's enormous.
02:03:17
Like, and that's, you know, I I heard
02:03:20
Greg Forin talk about it on an interview
02:03:22
um recently with um and I think it was
02:03:26
with Mike Hosking, I think. I can't
02:03:28
quite remember, but talked about, you
02:03:31
know, the he ran Walmart now running in
02:03:33
New Zealand. big businesses. But the
02:03:35
difference is and he talked about this
02:03:37
is what's one of what's our biggest
02:03:38
challenge? Scale or lack of it. It's a
02:03:40
real challenge here. You know, there's
02:03:42
just we like being a small little
02:03:43
country, but it creates some enormous
02:03:45
challenges because we have a lack of
02:03:46
scale. And when you go to America and
02:03:48
see the scale of 350 million vers 5
02:03:50
million and the and the market that that
02:03:53
it's in and the value it generates out
02:03:55
of media, that's why these guys have all
02:03:56
these big salaries and play for big
02:03:58
money because they're just in a market
02:03:59
that just it's just not. And it is what
02:04:02
it is. But you know um scale a lack of
02:04:05
scale is a real challenge for this
02:04:06
country.
02:04:08
Hey, I really appreciate you being here
02:04:10
today. Oh, my pleasure. Been fun. It's
02:04:12
been Yeah. Has it been fun? Yeah, it has
02:04:14
been fun. Yeah, you took took me a
02:04:16
couple of places I I wasn't expecting,
02:04:18
but that's okay. Oh, what like what was
02:04:19
that? No, getting into the family and I
02:04:22
drove that a bit to be fair, but you
02:04:23
know, um I knew the Marty Crow thing had
02:04:26
come out would come out, so I try and
02:04:27
prepare for that, but it still gets me.
02:04:30
Um, and you know, we didn't cover it
02:04:31
that much rugby, which is cool because
02:04:32
I'm quite happy for that to be, you
02:04:34
know, that's part of history. Can't
02:04:36
change it, consign to, proud of it. Um,
02:04:39
but you know, um, I retired in 1993, so
02:04:42
that's a long time ago. Well, it's been
02:04:44
a wonderful career and a a wonderful
02:04:47
life and I can't thank you enough for
02:04:48
coming on the podcast. Actually, I think
02:04:49
this is the first father and son Oh,
02:04:51
really? I've had on the the podcast.
02:04:53
Yeah. Ryan Grant. Oh, that's nice. I
02:04:55
really appreciate it. You're a great
02:04:56
man, Grandpa. Cheers. Cheers, Dom. Thank
02:04:58
you.
