00:00:00
It's kind of ridiculous really the role
00:00:01
that rugby in particular has played in
00:00:03
my life.
00:00:04
>> I never realized just the extent of your
00:00:05
career and the stuff you've done until I
00:00:07
was researching this. It's really
00:00:08
impressive.
00:00:09
>> Early on that were tough decisions like
00:00:10
whether to leave New Zealand rugby and
00:00:12
go play rugby league.
00:00:13
>> Have you found as you get into this
00:00:14
chapter of your life, you've gotten more
00:00:16
emotional before these games, you know,
00:00:18
you you get in a circle. The coach comes
00:00:20
in, has a final word before we get on
00:00:22
the bus and head off to the ground
00:00:23
talking to the team and everything. And
00:00:24
get on the bus and everyone gets up and
00:00:26
he goes, "You two come here." Bot and I
00:00:28
kind of wander over to him. He goes,
00:00:29
"You two are by far the biggest bloody
00:00:31
weak link. Don't this up." So basically,
00:00:33
we sat down. They said, "Okay, Craig, if
00:00:35
you sign a ARIRL contract, this will be
00:00:37
in your bank account within the next 7
00:00:38
days, and this will be your minimum
00:00:41
retainer." So you're looking at this
00:00:42
just going, "Jesus, it's a no-brainer."
00:00:44
Um, do you have any regrets?
00:00:49
>> Craig Inis Posty, welcome to my podcast.
00:00:52
>> Nice to be here, mate.
00:00:53
>> Mate, finally, we made this happen. I
00:00:54
was going back through our DMs. You've
00:00:56
been you've been a slippery guest.
00:00:57
You've been quite reluctant. Well, it's
00:00:58
just I guess it's a matter of just
00:01:00
finding that time, you know, spending a
00:01:02
lot of time in the Hogs Bay these days,
00:01:03
of course, and just, you know, time to
00:01:05
be up here. But it's nice to actually be
00:01:06
down and actually having a chat with you
00:01:08
rather than just kind of waving from
00:01:09
afar as you're uh kind of off on one of
00:01:12
your tres around the city. So, um yeah,
00:01:15
no, nice to be here. you and I have
00:01:17
known each other sort of, you know, I
00:01:18
suppose briefly or in passing for um
00:01:21
many years now, but I never realized
00:01:23
just sort of to the extent of your your
00:01:25
career and the stuff you've done until I
00:01:27
was researching this, it's really
00:01:28
impressive.
00:01:29
>> Oh, it's Well, thanks, mate. Um yeah,
00:01:32
look I guess uh you know I was I was
00:01:34
thinking about it recently just you know
00:01:36
the the uh the role that rugby in
00:01:39
particular has played in my life and uh
00:01:41
it's kind of ridiculous really you know
00:01:43
from starting off as a as a you know
00:01:45
5-year-old running around bare feet
00:01:48
through to um you know professional
00:01:50
rugby then the rugby league and and then
00:01:52
finally into a career on the on the
00:01:54
management side. So, uh, it's kind of
00:01:57
sad in some ways, I guess, that, um,
00:01:59
there's probably hasn't been too many
00:02:00
days where rugby hasn't kind of come
00:02:02
into my mind in some shape or form, but,
00:02:04
uh, but yeah, look, it's it's been
00:02:06
awesome. It's been a it's been an
00:02:08
awesome ride.
00:02:09
>> Yeah. So, there's sort of, I suppose,
00:02:11
three big chunks to the story. There's,
00:02:12
um, the rugby stuff, including the All
00:02:14
Blacks, then there's the league stuff,
00:02:15
which includes um, what's now known as
00:02:17
like an NRL win. Y
00:02:19
>> um, and then the player management
00:02:20
stuff. And, and they're all great
00:02:21
stories in their own right. There's
00:02:22
actually I was thinking about it when I
00:02:24
was researching yesterday a recent
00:02:25
podcast guest Martin Snedd and there's
00:02:27
parallels with you and him.
00:02:29
>> Um like an incredible sporting career
00:02:30
followed by an amazing career in sort of
00:02:32
sports management or behind the scenes.
00:02:34
>> Yeah.
00:02:34
>> Yeah. First of all, who who gave you the
00:02:36
nickname Posty? What does that mean?
00:02:38
>> Uh it's you know that always delivers.
00:02:41
>> Yeah. Well, I'd like to think it was you
00:02:43
know but unfortunately that that's not
00:02:45
the not the case. But uh no when I came
00:02:47
out of school I was given I was on a a
00:02:50
sevens tour with with Maris or Marrist
00:02:53
and um it was actually John Cuan came up
00:02:55
with the name and it was it was just a a
00:02:57
name association with um Glenn and this
00:02:59
where you know I went to school at
00:03:00
Sacred Heart. something had happened
00:03:02
that particular week at the the post
00:03:04
office had been bloody robbed or some
00:03:06
some carry on and uh from then on in I
00:03:09
was just posty and unfortunately you
00:03:12
know I went off to England and and uh
00:03:14
John Gallagher was there at Leads uh so
00:03:16
he you know he was calling me Posty so
00:03:18
all the all the Pommy boys were pulse
00:03:20
there you know I was posty there and
00:03:22
then of course over at Manly and Richie
00:03:23
was there calling me Posty as well so
00:03:25
it's just followed me wherever I've gone
00:03:28
>> so who calls you Craig now and who calls
00:03:30
you Posty is a 5050 or
00:03:33
>> um yeah I mean like yeah it's it's funny
00:03:36
like a lot of people that I've never met
00:03:37
before you know like oh good day posty
00:03:39
you know um so yeah u it's uh it's it's
00:03:43
not going anywhere I don't mind it's you
00:03:45
know it's quite nice to have a nickname
00:03:46
I guess um but uh but it certainly
00:03:49
followed me everywhere.
00:03:50
>> So you're in Oakuckland for a big dinner
00:03:52
this weekend like a reunion dinner with
00:03:54
um a bunch of your Oakland teammates.
00:03:57
Will they all call you Posty? Uh yeah,
00:03:59
it's not it's not so much it's not a
00:04:00
dinner. We we we catch up on a you know
00:04:02
every year at Christmas time for a few
00:04:03
drinks. The old um you know that 80s 90s
00:04:06
uh Rley Shield team uh which is
00:04:09
Richard's call you know Bernie McChall's
00:04:11
usually the instigator organized and
00:04:13
that but no it's nothing formal mate.
00:04:14
It's just to get together down at
00:04:16
Swashbucklers just to you know see how
00:04:18
the year's gone for everyone and and
00:04:20
kind of catch up and reminisce a little
00:04:21
bit and um yeah usually get a good
00:04:24
turnout. So we're doing that I think on
00:04:25
Friday. So, it's it's cool that you do
00:04:27
that cuz it does get harder as you get
00:04:28
older, and you have commitments and
00:04:30
families and whatever else going on.
00:04:32
>> Yeah, it does. And and it it is a cool
00:04:34
thing to do. And actually, uh this year
00:04:36
I I was in Sydney and managed to catch
00:04:38
up with a few of my old manly mates. And
00:04:40
um you know, like I hadn't seen them uh
00:04:42
this particular bunch of guys for, you
00:04:44
know, over 20 years. But it was like
00:04:46
yesterday, you know, it was like we, you
00:04:48
know, we we we'd run off the field the
00:04:50
day, you know, like um I think when
00:04:53
you've got those shared kind of
00:04:54
experiences and you know, you've kind of
00:04:55
gone to battle together and and um you
00:04:58
know, when you do catch up, it's it's
00:05:00
it's like it was yesterday and that's
00:05:01
what it'll be like on Friday.
00:05:03
>> When when you get to do you spend much
00:05:04
time reminiscing or not really are you
00:05:06
sort of too busy looking forward?
00:05:08
>> Yeah. Not not I guess as you get older
00:05:10
you you kind of do a little bit. you
00:05:12
kind of, you know, like now and again if
00:05:14
one of those old um bit of bits of
00:05:16
footage or whatever turn up on social
00:05:18
media or whatever, it's quite cool to
00:05:19
kind of have a bit of a reminisce, but
00:05:21
no, not not not particularly like um you
00:05:24
know, there's a lot there's a lot going
00:05:26
on and a lot to look forward to and uh
00:05:28
you know, I guess it's it's it's a
00:05:30
portion of your life that was pretty
00:05:32
cool. Um, but then you're kind of moving
00:05:34
on to the next thing and and I guess you
00:05:36
know in the in the management game it's
00:05:38
it's it's kind of hard to get that
00:05:39
across to the to the younger guys who
00:05:41
are right in the thick of it that um you
00:05:43
know it's for a limited time and then
00:05:45
it's just going to become a really small
00:05:47
part of your life hopefully. So make the
00:05:49
most of it while you where you've got
00:05:51
it.
00:05:52
>> You mentioned old footage just a second
00:05:54
ago and something that's um come along
00:05:56
actually since you've retired is
00:05:58
YouTube. So, there's old footage that's
00:06:00
available at your fingertips um on your
00:06:02
phone when you're in an Uber, anytime
00:06:03
you want. And I I've watched a lot of
00:06:06
old footage of you in the last couple of
00:06:07
days.
00:06:08
>> That um second try you scored on All
00:06:10
Black De, was that a forward pass?
00:06:11
>> Yeah, I think it probably was.
00:06:15
>> Yeah, I think it probably was, you know,
00:06:17
if we're being honest. Um yeah, I think
00:06:19
the TMO definitely would have pulled
00:06:20
that one up uh if that happened next
00:06:24
week. But um but he wasn't there. Oh,
00:06:26
no. Actually, he wasn't legit.
00:06:28
>> It counts on the record books, so that's
00:06:30
all that matters. But this is going to
00:06:32
be so much fun. There's so much to talk
00:06:33
about. So, um Craig Ross and us born
00:06:37
10th of September 1969 in New Plymouth.
00:06:40
Um earliest memories.
00:06:42
>> Uh earliest me. Well, we went we went
00:06:44
and uh um dad was a stock agent um um uh
00:06:49
in Okado just just out of um Plymouth.
00:06:52
We went there along uh the mom and dad
00:06:55
were from down there but um we moved to
00:06:57
Tamutu uh while I was quite young u for
00:07:00
dad's work and and that's really where
00:07:02
the I guess the the rugby kind of
00:07:04
journey started there. Dad was a player.
00:07:06
He played for tell me the old boys and
00:07:08
um so earliest memories I guess are just
00:07:10
kind of running around you know I was
00:07:12
one of those typical kids with my
00:07:13
brothers and friends running around the
00:07:15
the rugby club you know uh after games
00:07:18
um and uh and yeah um primary school
00:07:25
started Tamuri Primary um and I think
00:07:27
about seven we moved from Tamuri to to
00:07:29
mathemat and and and that's you know the
00:07:32
a large part of my childhood was was
00:07:34
actually in um
00:07:35
Who who did you pretend to be when you
00:07:37
were playing like rugby in on the school
00:07:39
field or the backyard when you were
00:07:40
little?
00:07:40
>> Um well I bet that was pretty pretty
00:07:42
much every single night. Uh we you know
00:07:45
myself and my brothers and and friends
00:07:47
you know we we were on the backyard
00:07:49
pretty much every single night and it
00:07:51
was always a big battle about who was
00:07:53
going to be the all blacks, who were
00:07:54
going to be the South Africans
00:07:56
were touring within it was you know they
00:07:58
might get a crack. Um and uh yeah I mean
00:08:03
I guess BG Williams was, you know, BG
00:08:07
was was always a real hero of mine as a
00:08:10
as a little kid, I guess. Um, but but,
00:08:13
you know, really all of them. Um, and
00:08:16
yeah, you know, like I say, it it was
00:08:18
pretty much every night that we'd be out
00:08:19
there uh battling away and um and and I
00:08:23
think that kind of put us all in
00:08:24
goodstead for later on.
00:08:26
>> You Where are you in the Birth order?
00:08:28
>> I'm the oldest.
00:08:29
>> Right. Yeah.
00:08:29
>> Oh, that's interesting. I would have
00:08:30
picked you to be the youngest. It's um
00:08:32
just something I've noticed with the
00:08:33
high performance I've had on the podcast
00:08:34
generally if you got older siblings like
00:08:36
Christian Cull's a great example of this
00:08:38
like his older brother didn't end up
00:08:40
going on to be a great rugby player but
00:08:42
just I suppose cuz Kully had an older
00:08:44
person to attack and defend against
00:08:46
growing up made him tough.
00:08:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I guess it
00:08:51
was well there three of us and it was
00:08:53
usually me against you know my other two
00:08:55
brothers and so
00:08:56
>> two two on one
00:08:57
>> two two on one and uh it was always it'd
00:08:59
always end in tears or my uh with the
00:09:02
second second um second oldest of Mark
00:09:06
and he was a bloody bad sport little
00:09:07
bugger and and so you know so it always
00:09:10
end up in a punch up or uh or on tears
00:09:13
and um but but you know as they got a
00:09:16
little bit older it got a little bit
00:09:17
harder for me too when they started to
00:09:18
kind of team up and uh but yeah we had
00:09:20
some real battles out there.
00:09:22
>> How much how much it was natural talent
00:09:24
versus hard work for you? Uh I well I
00:09:27
think particularly for me it was
00:09:28
probably hard work um to a to a large
00:09:30
degree. Um you know I I guess you know
00:09:34
some talent as well but um but but yeah
00:09:36
I I kind of feel like um you know
00:09:40
consistency was was probably my number
00:09:43
one thing. Um you know there was always
00:09:45
what I was aiming for all the way
00:09:46
through my career. You know um not
00:09:49
wanting to have bad games and um you
00:09:52
know winning was everything. Um, for for
00:09:56
me, you know, I didn't care how we got
00:09:58
there, you know, um, wasn't that
00:10:01
interested in kind of being flamboyant
00:10:03
or anything like that. Um, I just wanted
00:10:05
to win. Um, and that's kind of the way
00:10:07
that, you know, I kind of played the
00:10:08
game, I guess.
00:10:09
>> Speaking of flamboyance, there's another
00:10:11
highlight I saw on YouTube yesterday of
00:10:12
you getting a a try off the back of a a
00:10:14
flamboyant Carlos Spencer move. Oh,
00:10:16
yeah. It's amazing.
00:10:17
>> Yeah. Well, that was Yeah, there's
00:10:18
always interesting playing with Carlos,
00:10:20
you know. Um, you lost, what's, you
00:10:22
know, what are we doing? What's the
00:10:23
move? I mean, you just get like a,
00:10:26
okay, we're just we're just going to
00:10:28
play this one off the cuff. Um, but
00:10:30
yeah, no, he was he was a brilliant
00:10:32
loss. Brilliant to play with.
00:10:34
>> Who when was the first time um someone
00:10:36
said said to you or someone said about
00:10:38
you, you know, this this kid's got
00:10:39
talent. This kid's going to go
00:10:40
somewhere.
00:10:41
>> You remember that? Who's the first
00:10:43
person that spotted that in you? Well, I
00:10:44
I I think um I I was I was lucky to I
00:10:50
was probably as as a as a little kid a
00:10:52
little bit bigger than you know um so
00:10:55
and you know I was had decent kind of
00:10:57
strength and and uh so so rugby in those
00:11:01
early days kind of came reasonably easy
00:11:04
you know what I mean? Um and so I
00:11:05
started to make all the um you know in
00:11:08
the white we had Gwin Shield which was
00:11:10
kind of subun stuff and then Roller
00:11:12
Mills um and you know and I think you
00:11:14
know making Roller Mills that's when
00:11:16
people started to notice oh you know
00:11:18
these a couple of kids in this team that
00:11:19
were pretty pretty good um and you know
00:11:23
in my particular years that's you know
00:11:25
Walter Little and and and I said he was
00:11:26
in Tucker Ros we played from those kind
00:11:29
of role them all years all the way
00:11:30
through. So that's kind of like well
00:11:32
those two go pretty good. M
00:11:34
>> um and that was probably the start of
00:11:35
it, I guess.
00:11:36
>> So, so you wanted to be an All Black as
00:11:38
a kid?
00:11:39
>> Uh Yep.
00:11:40
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:40
>> What now? This this was completely
00:11:42
amateur then. It was actually amateur
00:11:44
right through your playing career as
00:11:46
well with the All Blacks and there was
00:11:47
no sign of professionalism or money on
00:11:48
site.
00:11:49
>> Yeah.
00:11:49
>> Well, yeah. What did you want to do?
00:11:50
Like what did you want to do for an
00:11:52
income?
00:11:53
>> Um hadn't really kind of thought about
00:11:55
that too much until later on, you know,
00:11:57
to be to be fair. Um you know, oh look,
00:12:00
I thought about the police and stuff
00:12:01
like that. you know, they were the kind
00:12:03
of things that interest me. Um, uh, when
00:12:05
I left school, I was working for
00:12:06
Panasonic as a as a in a sales and, um,
00:12:10
and commercial cadet, uh, which which
00:12:12
was great. Um, but, you know, they were
00:12:14
great employees, uh, employers, sorry,
00:12:16
as as well. And, and it was a bit of a
00:12:18
rugby job, I guess. I mean, I could go
00:12:19
off and do my thing, which was awesome.
00:12:21
Um, but I guess, you know, that was one
00:12:24
of the things that kind of led me down
00:12:25
the rugby league path in in the end was
00:12:27
the fact that, you know, rugby was
00:12:29
amateur. Um and you know making be able
00:12:33
to make that team that all back team at
00:12:35
a reasonably early age you know get
00:12:38
getting a real taste of it. Um and at
00:12:41
that same time you know friends like
00:12:42
Ridgie were going off to play league.
00:12:43
You know John Gallagher had gone to um
00:12:46
leadeds Frano had gone to Wigan. um and
00:12:49
and those guys coming back and talking
00:12:50
about their experiences and you know
00:12:52
Rigid in particular we you know spend a
00:12:54
lot of time with and and it's kind of
00:12:56
like you know these guys are off doing
00:12:58
this and getting paid uh to be
00:13:00
professional sports people you know
00:13:01
they're doing it all day um and then I'm
00:13:04
seeing like my you know my older uh all
00:13:06
black teammates you know struggling you
00:13:09
know because they need to employ someone
00:13:11
to work the farm while they're away or
00:13:13
drive the truck while they're away and
00:13:14
it just didn't seem that right to me you
00:13:16
know and uh so I I think I just made a
00:13:19
decision that, you know, before the
00:13:20
World Cup in ' 91, um that that was
00:13:23
probably going to be, you know, my last
00:13:25
harrah really. And and um I kind of
00:13:27
thought that I'd probably end up getting
00:13:29
picked up by an Australian rugby league
00:13:30
team cuz there had been a lot of
00:13:32
interest from from the teams over there.
00:13:34
But in the end, um I end up signing for
00:13:36
leads and that was the end of it for a
00:13:37
few years, uh four four and a half years
00:13:39
of uh rugby league.
00:13:41
>> Yeah, it was an incredible rugby league
00:13:43
career. Um we'll get into that, but
00:13:45
first of all, the the all black stuff.
00:13:46
Um, can you remember the moment you made
00:13:48
the team? How was the announcement done?
00:13:50
>> Um,
00:13:50
>> but radio, TV.
00:13:51
>> Well, no, it was TV and um, so yeah, I
00:13:56
mean, obviously I was had a pretty good
00:13:58
idea was going to be in those days. It
00:13:59
was, you know, you weren't you didn't
00:14:01
get a phone call or anything. Uh, you
00:14:03
you just sat there and listened on the
00:14:05
radio or and I think maybe they still do
00:14:07
do that these days, which is pretty cool
00:14:09
really. Um but this particular day they
00:14:12
had the TV cameras uh in the living room
00:14:15
uh at my flat and so we had mom and dad
00:14:18
were there and couple of friends and um
00:14:21
and so you know that's not a telltale
00:14:23
sign you're about to be named. I don't
00:14:24
know what it is.
00:14:25
>> Well that's a thing but it's that's a
00:14:26
thing. It was kind of like I had a
00:14:28
little bit of an idea I guess. Uh it
00:14:30
would have been pretty embarrassing if
00:14:32
but um yeah so I got named and uh yeah
00:14:36
pretty surreal. So that was for the 89
00:14:38
tour of Wales and um and yeah so Inga
00:14:44
was also named in that team. Uh Reggie
00:14:46
was named that team. So you know we had
00:14:48
a thing at home and you know celebrated
00:14:50
there and and um and then we all went
00:14:52
off to down to Pon Rugby Club which was
00:14:55
which was our club. Um, and then you
00:14:57
know the likes of Joe uh Stanley had
00:14:59
obviously been named in that team as
00:15:01
well. And Jace Goldmith was uh he was my
00:15:04
roommate uh my flatmate back in those
00:15:07
days. And Jace um who had already been
00:15:09
an All Black um from from our kind of
00:15:11
age group. Um he had broken his leg
00:15:14
earlier that year, so he was he was out.
00:15:16
Um so it was a little bit of kind of you
00:15:18
know great that Inger and Reggie and I
00:15:21
were kind of there but you know Jace not
00:15:23
being there with us was a little bit sad
00:15:25
I guess. Um, so we had a big, you know,
00:15:28
had a big celebration down at down at
00:15:29
Ponzip. And then that night, uh, and
00:15:31
then after that, Joe said, "Okay, you
00:15:32
you come back home with me." And we sat
00:15:35
around at Joe's place probably until
00:15:37
about 3:00 in the morning until, uh,
00:15:40
until he ever his wife threw us out. Um,
00:15:43
and it was cool. And, you know, he's
00:15:44
like, "Well, boys, this is this is what
00:15:46
it's all about, and this is this is what
00:15:48
you're going to have to expect, and this
00:15:49
is what you need to do." And and it was
00:15:51
awesome, you know, and we just sat
00:15:52
around talking about it. And um having
00:15:54
people like that around was was pretty
00:15:56
cool.
00:15:57
>> Oh, he he was more experienced
00:15:58
>> or Joe Stanley.
00:15:59
>> Yeah. Right. He was taking you under
00:16:01
under his wing a little bit.
00:16:02
>> Yeah. Well, you know, he's he was Ponby,
00:16:05
you know, Ponby through and through and
00:16:07
you know, the the new um the new Pon All
00:16:10
Blacks. I mean, you know, Anger and I at
00:16:11
that stage were 19 year olds. Um and um
00:16:15
you know, Richie Richie just I think
00:16:17
he's you know, just turned 20 or
00:16:18
whatever. So, uh so yeah. So, it was it
00:16:20
was cool,
00:16:22
>> man. I got goosebumps just hearing some
00:16:23
of these names you've dropped already. E
00:16:25
like it's it's stacked. It's just a
00:16:27
stacked era. You still quite obviously
00:16:29
um rest in peace in a twig. But what
00:16:32
about Richie? You still have a
00:16:33
relationship with him?
00:16:34
>> Yeah. Well, cross we we Yeah, we don't I
00:16:38
don't see him much. He's bloody he
00:16:40
spends most of his time in France these
00:16:41
days. I think gallivanting around in
00:16:43
southern France. But um but like I
00:16:45
mentioned earlier with those other manly
00:16:46
boys, whenever you catch up, it's
00:16:48
awesome. you know, it's it's always good
00:16:49
because, you know, there's just so many
00:16:51
shared experiences, you know, in times
00:16:53
when you you know, you've had to rely on
00:16:54
each other and that and um you know,
00:16:56
those bonds are pretty hard to break.
00:16:58
>> Yeah, I had him on the podcast really
00:17:00
early on, like when I was still in a
00:17:01
spare room at home and there were no
00:17:02
video cameras in the setup. He was he
00:17:04
was fabulous. It was the first time we'd
00:17:05
really connected, but I think he's um he
00:17:08
he's um he's he's incredibly
00:17:10
misunderstood, I think, by a lot of the
00:17:12
New Zealand public.
00:17:13
>> Yeah, I don't know about misunderstood.
00:17:17
He's quickly polariz I don't know what
00:17:19
it is. He's he's he's a polarizing, you
00:17:21
know, he's a polarizing character. But
00:17:23
at at the heart though, he's um you
00:17:25
know, he's one of these guys that um you
00:17:27
know, for his mates, he he you know, you
00:17:29
you'd want to be in the trenches, you
00:17:31
know, um one of the bravest footballers
00:17:33
I've I've come across. And um the 9 well
00:17:38
into the league later on, I guess, but
00:17:39
the 96 year where we were on the
00:17:40
premiership, we actually started without
00:17:42
him. he'd come back to the Warriors and
00:17:43
and um uh it was the start of the Super
00:17:46
League RL kind of battle and and then
00:17:48
but once he came back that was like the
00:17:50
finishing piece for that team that year.
00:17:52
He was just so awesome.
00:17:53
>> Yeah.
00:17:54
>> Yeah. And another podcast on guest I've
00:17:57
had on Dame Julie Christie. Um Oh yeah.
00:17:58
>> Yeah. She just talked about just how
00:18:00
fiercely loyal he is and the example she
00:18:02
gave was when um Toddy Brent Todd got in
00:18:04
some trouble and Matthew put him up for
00:18:07
home de at his house. Just fiercely
00:18:09
loyal.
00:18:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. That's
00:18:11
that's someone in a nutshell,
00:18:12
>> which is a wonderful wonderful You can
00:18:13
say what you want about someone, but
00:18:14
loyalty is a wonderful quality that no
00:18:16
one can take away from you.
00:18:17
>> Totally. Um, so so turning up to that
00:18:19
first team meeting or a training session
00:18:21
as a 20-year-old. Um, yeah. Who's most
00:18:24
what's most intimidating? Who's most
00:18:26
intimidating?
00:18:27
>> Um, well, I tell you that like you talk
00:18:29
about the first first meeting. So that
00:18:31
was always over at the Panama, right?
00:18:33
Um, and so I was I was driving over the
00:18:36
over the bridge and I was I I was
00:18:38
flustered cuz I was, you know, thinking,
00:18:40
"Shit, I'm going to be late to to get
00:18:42
there." And and so I was going a little
00:18:43
bit too quick and next thing the old
00:18:44
lights behind me and they pulled me up
00:18:47
just so that I came over the bridge and
00:18:49
uh he said, "Geez, you going back quick,
00:18:51
mate?" And I said, "Oh yeah, I'm late
00:18:52
for a meeting." Yeah. You know, I said,
00:18:55
"Yeah." He go I said, "I'm on way for my
00:18:57
first all black money." He said, "Follow
00:19:00
me." He said he got in his car and then
00:19:02
and um and I followed him and into the
00:19:05
into the pose. So that was that was a
00:19:07
pretty good um introduction into the
00:19:09
into the team. But um
00:19:11
>> please escort.
00:19:12
>> Please. Yeah. Yeah. Um but oh look, I I
00:19:17
guess I was lucky um coming into it that
00:19:20
in that era there were so many
00:19:21
Oaklanders that made up that team. So it
00:19:24
was kind of you kind of walked in there
00:19:25
and kind of like a few extras from
00:19:27
around the country, right? and um and a
00:19:29
big contingent of of Oakucklanders.
00:19:32
>> So um so that was that that was pretty
00:19:34
good and and um and I think it made it a
00:19:36
lot easier for you know just settling
00:19:37
into the into the environment having
00:19:39
known a lot of the guys.
00:19:41
>> What was the um you're you're in a lucky
00:19:43
position where due to your job now as a
00:19:45
like a player agent player manager you
00:19:47
you sort of you know have your finger on
00:19:49
the pulse so you know what team cultures
00:19:50
are like now versus then. What was it?
00:19:52
Yeah. What was it like back then? Big
00:19:54
drinking culture.
00:19:55
>> Uh
00:19:55
>> work hard, play hard.
00:19:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. No def. Yeah. And
00:19:58
absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's it was a
00:20:00
different different type of culture
00:20:01
altogether than than it is today. Um and
00:20:05
yeah, for right or wrong, I I guess, you
00:20:07
know, um it did play quite a quite a
00:20:10
part. You know, there wasn't too many
00:20:12
away games where there wasn't a court
00:20:14
session where, you know, they'd kind of
00:20:16
get you pretty pretty loaded up and then
00:20:18
like see your boys and behave yourselves
00:20:21
out there tonight, you know. Um and it
00:20:24
was just and it was just part of the
00:20:26
part of the scene, you know. Um, and but
00:20:29
it was at the same time as you had to
00:20:32
front up the next day. If there was if
00:20:34
you're on tour and you had a big night,
00:20:36
it didn't matter. You just had to front
00:20:37
up the next day. It was pretty old
00:20:39
school like that. Yeah.
00:20:41
>> Um, and where did you sit on the bus?
00:20:43
>> Right at the Right at the front.
00:20:44
>> Oh, really?
00:20:45
>> Right at the front.
00:20:46
>> So, you got to play 17 tests. Where
00:20:47
where did you end up on the bus?
00:20:49
>> Right at the front.
00:20:50
>> Oh, you never got off the front seat.
00:20:52
>> Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. Um,
00:20:54
yeah. Yeah, I mean, you got to do your
00:20:55
time and uh and it was the same even
00:20:58
like I say the Oakland changing room
00:20:59
back in those days, you know. I think it
00:21:01
was probably my third year before I
00:21:03
actually got my my own seat. Um so
00:21:06
there's, you know, the changing room and
00:21:07
then there's this one bench with about
00:21:09
nine guys trying to, you know, change.
00:21:12
Um and but it was pretty cool when
00:21:14
eventually someone says, "Oh, Posty,
00:21:17
that's your seat over there." Someone
00:21:18
had, you know, obviously gone and that's
00:21:20
your seat. And it kind of felt like a
00:21:22
bit of an achievement, you know. Um, but
00:21:24
I remember anger coming in on his I'd
00:21:27
been in there a couple of weeks and then
00:21:28
Anger got brought into the team and he
00:21:30
came in and he just kind of threw his
00:21:31
bag down somewhere. I can't remember who
00:21:33
the player was. Might have been um Ellen
00:21:35
Won. I can't remember but um whoever it
00:21:37
was just came and just grabbed his bags
00:21:38
and just bloody buffed them. You know,
00:21:41
it's like he you you learned the hard
00:21:43
way. That's a different time. Yeah.
00:21:45
Martin Sneed who I mentioned before say
00:21:46
he played cricket through the 80s. He
00:21:48
said when they're on tour, every single
00:21:50
night of the week, the the batters would
00:21:52
go out as a group, the bowlers would go
00:21:53
out as a group, so they'd be drinking
00:21:54
every night of the week.
00:21:55
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:56
>> Different time, eh?
00:21:57
>> Yeah. Yeah. Completely different time.
00:21:58
Um, you know, we had we had a load of
00:22:00
fun. Um,
00:22:02
>> you know, I guess as far as high
00:22:04
performance goes, um, you know, you just
00:22:06
you just wouldn't get away with it these
00:22:08
days. You just couldn't. You know, these
00:22:09
guys are just so much bigger, stronger,
00:22:11
fitter. Um, and they still get out there
00:22:15
and have a good time, you know. Um, but
00:22:16
I think they need to be a lot more
00:22:18
cautious than we ever were. Um,
00:22:20
>> oh, with social media and
00:22:22
>> social media and everything else,
00:22:24
phones, cameras, um, you know, all that
00:22:27
kind of stuff. It's it's it's um, it's
00:22:29
important that you're, you know, you're,
00:22:31
um, you kind in control. So, um, yeah,
00:22:35
certainly a different age.
00:22:37
>> So, your your all black debut, uh, that
00:22:39
was against Wales at Carter Farms Park
00:22:41
in 1989. Um, yeah. How nervous were you
00:22:45
about doing the hacker? Was the hacker a
00:22:46
big thing then or?
00:22:47
>> Yeah, well it was because you know Buck
00:22:49
had kind of transformed the hacker back
00:22:52
in those days and uh what an awesome
00:22:54
leader he was.
00:22:55
>> Um but uh yeah, look I I I think you
00:22:59
know you as a kid you kind of grow up
00:23:01
doing that particular hacker, right? You
00:23:02
know, whether it's on the back lawn
00:23:04
before you kind of start getting stuck
00:23:05
into your brothers or
00:23:08
or um at different times. So, you know,
00:23:11
you you kind of know. Yeah, you'd have a
00:23:12
couple of rehearsals and then way you
00:23:14
go. I mean, it's nothing like, you know,
00:23:15
the per performance these days, of
00:23:17
course, but but it was certainly a step
00:23:19
up from what it had been. Um but but
00:23:23
what I remember most about my um that
00:23:26
debut was was with it being at Carter
00:23:28
Farms Park and um you know I'd grown up
00:23:34
you know one of those kids like well
00:23:36
probably you and and and everyone else
00:23:38
like getting woken up by your parents in
00:23:40
the middle of the night at 2:00 in the
00:23:42
morning when the All Blacks are on tour
00:23:43
and
00:23:44
>> cheese toasties and a Milo.
00:23:45
>> Cheese toasties and a Milo. Exactly
00:23:47
that. And um and I was one of those kids
00:23:49
and um and then you know here you are uh
00:23:53
you're you're standing on Cardiff Arms
00:23:56
and um they're singing um uh Land of
00:23:59
their father and all that kind of thing
00:24:01
and it was just unre you know it was
00:24:03
surreal. Um but the weird thing was like
00:24:06
I kind of felt like I' I'd been there
00:24:08
before because I'd thought about it so
00:24:11
much you know and and being um that
00:24:14
particular field um card farms park um
00:24:19
you know there's something special there
00:24:20
was something special about it you know
00:24:21
it's just part of New Zealand rugby folk
00:24:24
law right uh so to be there and do that
00:24:26
um was was very special and um and I'll
00:24:30
I'll never forget it probably ask you
00:24:32
about games you know I can't remember
00:24:35
most of them um actual playing but but
00:24:37
moments like that are pretty special.
00:24:40
>> Yeah. And to top it off um two tries,
00:24:42
one of them legal.
00:24:45
>> Well, two of them legal. Two of them are
00:24:47
one. Yeah. And two of them stuck here.
00:24:49
Yeah. I mean that's icing on the cake
00:24:50
stuff, isn't it? What's after that? Do
00:24:53
you feel like you've sort of, you know,
00:24:55
cemented yourself as an all black or you
00:24:57
got more credibility or respect amongst
00:24:59
the team or?
00:25:00
>> Um, I I was lucky. I, you know, my JK's
00:25:04
mis misfortune. He he ended up with a
00:25:06
Achilles. Um, he tore in Achilles and so
00:25:09
that was him bugged for the for the
00:25:10
tour. I I went as a center. Um, they
00:25:13
threw me in as a wing. won a game went
00:25:15
pretty well and um and then I you know
00:25:18
kind of filled in for JK is that right
00:25:20
hand winger and and had a good tour and
00:25:22
and got the call up um so you know so
00:25:26
yeah is often the way you know someone
00:25:28
as misfortune is your fortune you got to
00:25:30
take it with both hands and um
00:25:32
opportunity yeah and um yeah
00:25:34
>> and who who was who was there did you
00:25:36
have any were your parents there or
00:25:38
>> yeah mom and dad were there yeah mom and
00:25:40
dad were there and um yeah like they
00:25:43
they reckon And I scored that try pretty
00:25:45
early that that first try. I think it
00:25:47
was after about four or five minutes.
00:25:48
And mom reckon she she had never saw it
00:25:50
cuz she was still she had still had
00:25:52
tears in her eyes
00:25:53
>> from um from the um from the anthems and
00:25:56
that you know. So uh so that was pretty
00:25:58
cool to have them there because they
00:25:59
played a massive part and you know this
00:26:01
is that support network. Um growing up
00:26:04
they were always there. So that was
00:26:06
pretty cool for them to be sitting up
00:26:07
there watching that.
00:26:08
>> What have you got that jersey anywhere?
00:26:10
What have you done with it? Um that
00:26:12
particular jersey dad's got at home up
00:26:14
on the wall. Um yeah. So yeah, I haven't
00:26:18
actually got like a whole lot. He was a
00:26:20
bit of a bugger. Daddy, when I went to
00:26:22
England, he uh I gave him all my
00:26:24
jerseys. Like he's, you know, oh yeah,
00:26:27
charities here and charities here and
00:26:29
all of a sudden you've got bugger all
00:26:30
bloody jerseys. He's But um but yeah,
00:26:33
no, that one's on the wall.
00:26:35
>> Wow. That's so special. Yeah. You were
00:26:36
telling me before we started your dad's
00:26:38
still around. Um, yeah. Gets by on a
00:26:40
diet of like a books a line reading a
00:26:42
card in the 60s a week.
00:26:43
>> Yeah, something like that. Not not not
00:26:45
quite like that these days, but uh yeah.
00:26:47
Yeah, he's uh yeah, he's still going
00:26:49
pretty strong.
00:26:49
>> That's so cool that he's got that jersey
00:26:51
hanging up. I I suppose it says just how
00:26:53
much it means, right?
00:26:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um they they they
00:26:57
certainly got a lot of um a a lot of
00:27:00
satisfaction out of being there that day
00:27:02
particularly. But, you know, uh for
00:27:04
myself and my other two brothers who,
00:27:06
you know, they're reasonable footballers
00:27:07
as well. Um, yeah, mom and dad were a
00:27:10
big part of their well, part of our
00:27:11
support.
00:27:12
>> What about other bits of memorabilia?
00:27:14
Like, um, I found this, where is it? I
00:27:16
found this thing online used to like a
00:27:17
bubble bubble gum card from the 1990s.
00:27:19
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:20
>> Yeah. Like, do do you have do you do you
00:27:22
have like a like a pool room or
00:27:24
anything?
00:27:24
>> Um, I have got a or like a a steamer box
00:27:28
full of crap somewhere in storage.
00:27:30
>> Well, it's I'm like everyone, you know,
00:27:32
you you always swap jerseys. Um and
00:27:34
actually uh
00:27:37
my jersey from from that Welsh game. So
00:27:40
that that's that's on the wall and it
00:27:42
the reason why I got to keep it um
00:27:44
because you always you know you end up
00:27:46
swapping jersey. So uh Terry Wright
00:27:48
actually after the after that game after
00:27:50
that game against the Welsh he he gave
00:27:53
me his all black jersey to to give to
00:27:56
you opposition so I could keep my
00:27:58
jersey. So um yeah so so that was pretty
00:28:02
cool Terry. But um yeah um most of them
00:28:05
to be honest are in boxes. You know I
00:28:08
think you know in my office I've got um
00:28:11
I guess just to you know map out my
00:28:14
eras. I've got I've got my uh Manley uh
00:28:17
96 jersey where we won the premiership.
00:28:20
I've got my all black jersey in the
00:28:21
middle. Um and I've got um leads jersey
00:28:26
from our first trip to Wembley. So um so
00:28:28
they're the only ones that I got on the
00:28:30
wall. So Buck was captain on that tour
00:28:32
and um and then we came home and uh he
00:28:36
was replaced uh by Gary Whitten. That's
00:28:38
when the bring back thing started. Yeah.
00:28:40
>> What was it like being in the team at
00:28:41
that time?
00:28:41
>> Kind of. I I guess you're concentrating
00:28:43
on yourself a little bit. Um u Joe was
00:28:47
also um he he he left the team at that
00:28:50
stage and and then I came in as a
00:28:52
replacement for him in the center. So I
00:28:54
kind of moved from from the wing into
00:28:56
the centers and and our first um first
00:28:59
set of test matches were better cup
00:29:02
three three tests against Australia. Um
00:29:04
so I mean I was kind of focused on you
00:29:07
know [ __ ] I got to do a good job here
00:29:08
rather than looking at the big kind of
00:29:10
picture of what was going on but there
00:29:11
was certainly a lot of backlash. Yeah
00:29:13
for sure.
00:29:14
>> Yeah cuz another um big all black
00:29:15
controversy was um when Kelly was
00:29:17
dropped by John Mitchell. I had Steve
00:29:18
Divine on who was in the team at the
00:29:20
time and he he said everyone's just
00:29:22
focusing on their own job. to even sort
00:29:24
of notice that sort of stuff. What was
00:29:25
what was Bark like though? When I had
00:29:27
Fran Boniker on, he he he called him the
00:29:29
scariest person he's ever met. He said
00:29:31
his nickname was God. Um what's what's
00:29:35
your recollections or memories of Buck
00:29:37
Shelf?
00:29:37
>> Um well, he was great. He was awesome.
00:29:39
Um you know, for for a bunch of young
00:29:41
cuz there a lot of young players on that
00:29:43
particular tour, you know, myself and
00:29:45
Walter. Um John Turmy came in as a
00:29:48
replacement for for JK. Uh and then you
00:29:51
know Richie and and uh so so it was a
00:29:54
there's some young guys here, right? And
00:29:56
um Buck I guess was a bit of a father
00:29:58
figure in a in a lot of ways and um but
00:30:00
he was accessible and and um you know he
00:30:03
didn't kind of put himself on any kind
00:30:05
of pedestals or anything like that. He
00:30:06
was just a you know really good guy and
00:30:09
um the thing was he just led from the
00:30:10
front you know I mean he was just so
00:30:12
bloody tough. Um and so you're happy to
00:30:15
follow people like that you know. Um, so
00:30:18
yeah, it was we were lucky we had people
00:30:20
like him. Griswali was was the coach of
00:30:23
that team. Like he was a scary bugger.
00:30:25
Uh, but but again, you know, uh, when
00:30:28
you got to know him, like a just a
00:30:30
really big-hearted guy and, you know,
00:30:32
loved his players and and um, and you
00:30:35
want to play for people like that. So,
00:30:37
yeah, it was just it was a great tour
00:30:39
that that that my first rugby all black
00:30:41
experience was was awesome. you know, I
00:30:43
got to play test matches on that trip
00:30:45
and we had a lot of fun. Um, you know,
00:30:48
Rick Solito made that um that good, bad,
00:30:51
and the rugby kind of video. So, people
00:30:53
>> people got to have a bit of a look at,
00:30:55
you know, what goes on and um yeah, it
00:30:57
was it was it was good fun.
00:30:59
>> Yeah, that that was before its time, eh,
00:31:01
that sort of stuff. Like, um those sort
00:31:03
of, you know, behind the scenes sports
00:31:04
documentaries are massive now. Like you
00:31:06
look at Drive to Survive and you can
00:31:07
probably take the roots all the way back
00:31:09
to the good, the bad, and the rugby.
00:31:11
That VHS I think it sold something like
00:31:13
100,000 copies at W course massive.
00:31:15
>> Yeah. A little bit of a difference
00:31:16
between Good Mad Rugby and Drive to
00:31:18
Surv. Uh but
00:31:20
>> Reck and JK with a handicam. Okay. Yeah.
00:31:23
Production values are a bit less
00:31:25
>> but yeah effective. Um
00:31:29
yeah. Who else was Well, MJ. MJ. He was
00:31:31
really tough, right?
00:31:32
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. He um Yeah. Just just a
00:31:36
free kick uh athlete, you know. Um, and
00:31:40
it just transformed, you know, loose
00:31:43
forward play at that time, you know,
00:31:45
like when you had people like him, you
00:31:47
know, like again, I guess, uh, like I
00:31:49
mentioned before, I was just lucky to
00:31:50
kind of come into that Oakland
00:31:51
environment. You had all these kind of
00:31:53
guys. Um, I think I played 50 games for
00:31:56
Aland before I left to go to Rugby
00:31:58
League and and we had one loss against
00:32:00
uh, New South Wales and, you know,
00:32:02
shitty conditions over in Sydney. Uh,
00:32:04
but apart from that, yeah, I mean, you
00:32:06
you never even felt like you were going
00:32:07
to, you know, be in a losing team.
00:32:09
There's these these great footballers
00:32:11
around you was was was pretty neat.
00:32:13
>> And someone like Grizz Wy um do you do
00:32:17
you sort of like talk around him or you
00:32:18
just keep your head down and speak when
00:32:20
you're spoken to?
00:32:22
>> Pretty much pretty much just like that.
00:32:25
>> Yeah. uh when I um that Bside Cup that
00:32:30
first series back in New Zealand um and
00:32:33
I got named in the center so Walter
00:32:35
Little and I were the were the two
00:32:36
midfielders and so we were a couple you
00:32:38
a couple of 20 year olds at that time so
00:32:40
you know I think about it now and you
00:32:42
think bloody hell you know it's pretty
00:32:43
young midfield for international rugby.
00:32:46
Um but before these games, you know, you
00:32:50
you get in a circle. Um you put your
00:32:52
chairs in a circle and the coach comes
00:32:53
in, has a final word before, um before
00:32:55
we get on the bus and head off to the
00:32:57
ground. And I just remember Grizz kind
00:33:01
of, you know, talking to the team and
00:33:03
everything. And all right, you know, get
00:33:04
on the bus and everyone gets up and he
00:33:06
goes, "You two come here." And so,
00:33:09
um
00:33:11
B and I kind of wander over to him. He
00:33:13
goes, "Yeah." So, the Australians reckon
00:33:15
that you two are by far the biggest
00:33:18
bloody weak link. Uh, so don't [ __ ] this
00:33:21
up. We kind of like looked at each other
00:33:24
and like
00:33:26
no pressure. No, no extra pressure on
00:33:29
the 20-year-olds, but um it worked out
00:33:31
pretty well. But yeah, no, he was he was
00:33:32
a hard man.
00:33:34
>> Wow. Not mincing his word. Um yeah, not
00:33:37
not a lot of duty or care there by
00:33:39
today's standards. What about a Grisw
00:33:41
halftime spray? like if the team's not
00:33:42
doing well.
00:33:44
>> Uh yeah, that they were. Yep. Yep. They
00:33:46
were they were they were up there. U the
00:33:49
the other, you know, the the World Cup
00:33:51
uh 91 where uh they decided which was a
00:33:55
massive mistake really to um to bring
00:33:57
Hardy in as well. So John Hart and Grizz
00:34:00
to co- coach the team at the World Cup.
00:34:02
And I think this is pretty well
00:34:03
documented. It's kind of going over our
00:34:05
ground really. But you know, both both
00:34:07
terrific coaches in their own right. Um
00:34:09
but chalk and cheese. Absolute chalk and
00:34:12
cheese.
00:34:12
>> Yeah. Bad chemistry.
00:34:13
>> Yeah. Real bad chemistry. So um and I
00:34:16
remember you know going off to play the
00:34:17
Australians in the semi-final, you know,
00:34:19
we end up losing that game. But I just
00:34:20
remember being at the hotel um before
00:34:23
the you know um before we get on the bus
00:34:26
and the coaches come in and Hardy kind
00:34:28
of getting in there and you know talk. I
00:34:30
know sorry Grizz went first and he spoke
00:34:32
for about 30 seconds you know like and
00:34:35
that was it. And then Hardy kind of came
00:34:37
in and and you know his message was a
00:34:39
little bit longer and and in the end you
00:34:41
kind of like this is before a big test
00:34:43
match, right? You're kind of looking at
00:34:44
uh you're looking at Hardy and you're
00:34:46
kind of like looking at Grizz and you're
00:34:47
going Jesus. You could just see him
00:34:50
getting more wound up um as as time went
00:34:53
by. So yeah, so it was it was it was a
00:34:55
crazy decision to to bring those guys
00:34:57
together for that. Um
00:34:59
>> but anyway,
00:35:00
>> yeah, completely different person. Yes,
00:35:01
you got Grizz Wley from like an old
00:35:02
school rugby background and then um John
00:35:04
Hart with a you know Fletchers
00:35:06
management sort of background. Um
00:35:08
>> yeah, what are your recollections of
00:35:10
that Rugby World Cup? Because little
00:35:11
history lesson. So the 87 was the very
00:35:13
first Rugby World Cup and the All Blacks
00:35:15
won here at home.
00:35:16
>> So up until that point we just assumed
00:35:19
they were easy to win, right?
00:35:21
>> So then you were in the second World Cup
00:35:22
1991 and I I suppose people think, "Oh,
00:35:24
we're just going to win it again cuz
00:35:25
we're the All Blacks." Was um
00:35:28
>> Yeah. Did it hurt at the time?
00:35:30
>> Yeah. a massive loss.
00:35:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Look, you know,
00:35:34
you you you you feel those losses. Um I
00:35:38
don't think anything's changed there. Uh
00:35:40
you feel like you've let the whole
00:35:41
country down. You know, you you're kind
00:35:43
of carrying a pretty big load on the
00:35:45
shoulders. U if you're looking at that
00:35:47
way. Um that was a really good
00:35:49
Australian team. You know, they they'd
00:35:51
beaten us a couple of times leading up
00:35:53
um from there. And and I think the
00:35:56
Allback team at that time was kind of
00:35:58
about to kind of go into a bit of a
00:36:00
transformation period, you know, like we
00:36:02
had players, you know, a group of
00:36:04
younger players that were starting to
00:36:05
find their feet.
00:36:06
>> Um and then a group of older players who
00:36:09
probably started to kind of head down
00:36:10
the other side of the hill, you know,
00:36:11
>> at the end of the the Grand Fox's sort
00:36:14
of era.
00:36:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, so um so it wasn't a
00:36:18
perfect kind of situation going into
00:36:20
World Cup and and you know, World Cups
00:36:23
were new at that point. So like the lead
00:36:25
and I there was nothing very strategic
00:36:28
about the way we went into the World
00:36:29
Cup. It's just like oh well you know
00:36:31
there's a World Cup coming on uh coming
00:36:33
up and this is the team and way you go.
00:36:35
Um I think there's a you know obviously
00:36:37
a lot more thought and preparation goes
00:36:39
into World Cups these days.
00:36:41
>> Was there any sort of um public backlash
00:36:43
after that? Like I'm I'm thinking I I
00:36:45
had John hard on the podcast and uh
00:36:47
after the 99 World Cup um yeah he was
00:36:50
spat on. treated real badly and actually
00:36:52
spiral into like real serious um mental
00:36:55
health issues as as a result of that.
00:36:57
Was it the same in 91 or not as severe?
00:37:00
>> Um well, I don't really know because I
00:37:01
didn't come home.
00:37:04
>> Wise. So I um I I'd organized I'd
00:37:08
organized to stick around after the
00:37:09
World Cup and play some uh club rugby at
00:37:11
Bedford um just just out of London. And
00:37:14
I was going to do that for a few months
00:37:15
and then kind of wandered home wander
00:37:17
home after that. Um but while I was
00:37:20
doing that, that's when I got the phone
00:37:21
call from Doug Lorton, who was the coach
00:37:24
at Leads, uh rugby league and um so
00:37:28
yeah, it was a little bit of time
00:37:30
before, you know, went home. You end up
00:37:32
being at the end of the rugby league
00:37:33
season in uh in England. So
00:37:35
>> yeah, and and just to time stamp it, but
00:37:36
this is pre- internet, pre-mobile
00:37:38
phones. So you couldn't even read
00:37:40
articles back home uh even if you wanted
00:37:42
to. There was your parents could
00:37:44
probably clip some things and send them
00:37:46
over to you and you'd get them 3 weeks
00:37:47
later. I I think it was pretty soon
00:37:49
after that World Cup that um I think
00:37:51
Lori Mains was was named as the coach or
00:37:54
or was about to be named cuz I you know
00:37:55
I got remember getting a phone call from
00:37:57
Hardy got a phone call from Lori just
00:37:59
you know before I'd actually signed um
00:38:02
and uh so I think it must have been
00:38:04
pretty soon after that that Lori was
00:38:06
named as the coach and and then you know
00:38:08
kind of went into that kind of um
00:38:10
transition period with the All Blacks um
00:38:13
and he you know started to kind of bring
00:38:15
in new players and Yeah.
00:38:18
>> Yeah. We'll get to the leaks up in a
00:38:19
second. So, yeah. So, so you left after
00:38:20
that World Cup in ' 91 and then you came
00:38:22
back and you were in some um All Black
00:38:24
training camps uh when you came back
00:38:26
towards the tail end of your career.
00:38:27
Have I got this right? Like you're in
00:38:28
like some tapo
00:38:30
>> training camp. Who was the coach then?
00:38:31
>> Oh, that was Oh, that was it. Yeah, that
00:38:33
was when I came back to union at the
00:38:35
end. After league.
00:38:35
>> Yeah. After league. Yeah. So,
00:38:37
>> who was coach then? Was that Was that
00:38:39
>> uh that was Hardy?
00:38:40
>> Hardy?
00:38:40
>> Yeah, that was Hardy. Yeah. Yeah. So,
00:38:42
yeah. So I came back and and uh one of
00:38:44
the first things they did was send me
00:38:45
down to tapo to um camp with your back
00:38:48
cuz you know look it probably wasn't the
00:38:49
best thing to you know to be doing
00:38:51
really from a PR point of view. Um
00:38:53
>> why is that?
00:38:54
>> Well I think a lot of people like you
00:38:55
know he he'd been off playing rugby
00:38:58
league you know what's he doing at an
00:38:59
all black camp so I
00:39:01
>> Oh you still sort of seen as like a a
00:39:03
defector or something. Oh, I don't know
00:39:04
if it was so much a defector, but I, you
00:39:06
know, I hadn't played rugby for a long
00:39:08
time. So, um, so there's a a little bit
00:39:10
of negativity, but I think people saw it
00:39:12
as a little bit controversial having a
00:39:14
having a leaguey kind of come in and
00:39:15
straight into a into that type of
00:39:17
environment. But, um, anyway, it was
00:39:19
just, you know, a bit of bloody testing
00:39:20
and that was no big deal.
00:39:22
>> Yeah. Um, what are some of the lessons
00:39:25
from the black environment which have
00:39:26
stuck with you through your professional
00:39:28
life?
00:39:29
Um,
00:39:32
yeah, I
00:39:34
there's there's there's just something
00:39:35
really special, you know, and and and
00:39:37
I'm I guess, you know, it worries me a
00:39:39
little bit that that, you know, we we
00:39:42
can't lose those core values that that
00:39:45
have made the All Blacks such a unique
00:39:48
uh and powerful
00:39:50
um not not only sports team, but but um
00:39:54
um the
00:39:57
yeah, the ethos around, you know, um,
00:40:00
keeping things
00:40:02
straight and, you know, loyalty and
00:40:04
being humble and, um, you know, all all
00:40:07
those things that have made all black
00:40:08
teams so good, you know, um, I think you
00:40:12
can carry those through into other
00:40:13
aspects of your life. And, you know, I
00:40:15
think they've, you know, tried to kind
00:40:16
of commercialize a little bit too,
00:40:18
which, you know, I don't know if I'm
00:40:19
such a fan of, but um,
00:40:21
>> in what way? Like, um, yeah, what do you
00:40:23
mean? Um well I I I you know I I I think
00:40:26
um
00:40:28
um you know you you'll get businesses
00:40:31
will you know spend time down at New
00:40:32
Zealand Rugby kind of you know learn
00:40:34
being taught the whole kind of all back
00:40:36
ethos of you know how to kind of do
00:40:39
business basically and and uh I thought
00:40:41
that's what you were going to say like I
00:40:42
was I was going to yeah the James
00:40:44
Kerbach um what's it called? I think
00:40:47
it's Yeah. the James Ker book. It's got
00:40:48
Yeah. lessons from the All Blacks and it
00:40:50
talks about the no [ __ ] policy and
00:40:52
you know, no one's beyond sweeping the
00:40:54
sheds and things like that.
00:40:55
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:56
>> I suppose there are transferables for
00:40:57
business. But yeah, you know, yeah,
00:41:00
there definitely are, I guess. But um
00:41:01
but but yeah, look, I I I think um there
00:41:05
are lessons that I learned that I've
00:41:06
been able to kind of carry through um
00:41:08
into aspects of my life and and I think
00:41:10
just kind of keeping things real is
00:41:12
probably the most important.
00:41:13
>> Yeah. What what was your proudest moment
00:41:15
as an All Black?
00:41:17
>> Um
00:41:19
well, I guess I Nothing beats your first
00:41:22
test match, you know. Uh nothing I don't
00:41:25
think anything would ever beat, you
00:41:26
know, that standing there at Carter
00:41:28
Farms Park, you know, um about to play
00:41:32
your first test match. That was that was
00:41:34
pretty cool. Um being named, you know,
00:41:36
having your name read out, it's just
00:41:38
kind of surreal, all that kind of bit.
00:41:41
But um but yeah, look, I'm you know, I'm
00:41:43
really happy with what I achieved um
00:41:46
while I was there. It probably, you
00:41:48
know, and some people say, you know,
00:41:50
wasn't long enough really, but um but
00:41:55
I'm more than happy with, you know, what
00:41:57
what I achieved while I was while I was
00:41:59
playing, you know, playing rugby and at
00:42:00
that point and and then able to go off
00:42:02
and do something different.
00:42:03
>> Yeah. And you you played every game in
00:42:05
the 91 World Cup.
00:42:06
>> Yep.
00:42:06
>> Yeah.
00:42:07
>> Yep.
00:42:08
>> Y
00:42:08
>> it's a hell of a contribution. You know,
00:42:10
you look at um how many All Blacks
00:42:11
there's there's been like 12 or 1300 All
00:42:13
Blacks and there's a lot of one test All
00:42:14
Blacks along the way. So to get to 17,
00:42:16
it's no mean feat.
00:42:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, back in those days
00:42:19
too, you played all the midweek games,
00:42:21
too. So, I think I ended up with about
00:42:22
30 30 games in a in a all black jersey,
00:42:25
which um yeah, I know I'm, you know,
00:42:27
really proud of.
00:42:28
>> And financially, what did you get back
00:42:29
then? Did you get per DMs? You get like
00:42:31
a day like a day rate or anything or
00:42:33
>> Yeah. And I can't remember what the hell
00:42:34
it was, but it was bugger all
00:42:36
>> like 20 bucks, 50 bucks.
00:42:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean like and this
00:42:39
is the thing, right? And so you know if
00:42:41
I think you'd probably know you have
00:42:43
your if you got a say a test match or
00:42:45
you got a midweek game whatever you got
00:42:47
your you got your playing team and back
00:42:49
in those days you know if you are coming
00:42:50
off the bench you were lucky to get on
00:42:52
the field cuz no one wanted to give up
00:42:54
their spot. So there was no kind of you
00:42:56
know interchange or anything like that.
00:42:58
So you had your um you had your planing,
00:43:00
you had your duties which were the um
00:43:02
were the reserves and then you had the
00:43:04
dirty duties. the dirty duties were the
00:43:05
guys that didn't even change, you know,
00:43:07
they just sat in the stand and ate
00:43:08
lollies. Um, so so one one of the things
00:43:12
was with with with all the games, uh,
00:43:14
we're all given two two tickets, you
00:43:16
know, two match tickets for for every
00:43:17
game, whether it was test match or
00:43:19
midweek game. So, um, so it was the job
00:43:22
of a couple of the DDs, the dirty
00:43:24
duties, to get out there with the rest
00:43:26
of the scalpers and, um,
00:43:30
oh,
00:43:32
>> a few moments later. All right, so we're
00:43:35
back. Uh, Posty, um, I don't know what
00:43:37
just happened. There was like a power
00:43:38
cut.
00:43:40
>> Who knows? So, um, we're going to
00:43:42
continue with limited light. And I've
00:43:44
got my, um, glasses here, which I don't
00:43:46
normally wear because, um, the the font
00:43:48
on the cards is too small. But we were,
00:43:50
you were in the middle of a really good
00:43:51
story when the power went out. We were
00:43:52
talking about, um, well, I think we were
00:43:54
talking about, you know, um, how we were
00:43:56
paid back in back in those old amateur
00:43:58
days. And I I was just I was just
00:44:00
talking about how um we all got two
00:44:03
tickets for these um you know for each
00:44:05
game whether whether it was a test match
00:44:07
or a midweek game and the DDS the guys
00:44:10
that weren't uh change w change to
00:44:13
actually play that day a couple of them
00:44:14
would have to go out with the scalpers
00:44:17
uh and sell off our tickets and and then
00:44:20
you know all the money went kind of went
00:44:21
into a pool which they called the
00:44:22
cabbage patch and um and I think Foxy
00:44:26
was usually the uh the treasurer. he is
00:44:28
in charge of the uh you know the the the
00:44:30
cash that was generated from the cabbage
00:44:32
patch. Um and then at the end of the
00:44:34
tour um that was all divied up between
00:44:36
the boys and uh and again you know for
00:44:38
the young guys it was awesome. It was
00:44:39
like oh a couple of grand or whatever
00:44:41
you know beautiful they'd go off on a
00:44:43
little excursion around Europe or
00:44:44
whatever. And uh but of course for the
00:44:46
older guys you know that was pretty
00:44:48
important that money they had to kind of
00:44:49
go home and um like I was saying you
00:44:51
know whether it was paying people that
00:44:53
had been looking after the farm or
00:44:55
looking after the truck or whatever. And
00:44:56
uh so yeah, I just never really kind of
00:45:00
sat that well that um he had like these
00:45:02
high performing kind of athletes at that
00:45:04
time. Um and um yeah, having to struggle
00:45:08
to kind of get out there and and and
00:45:10
play for their country and and do what
00:45:11
they did. I mean, everyone loved it. No
00:45:13
one was complaining, but it still wasn't
00:45:15
right. Um and and so that that had a big
00:45:18
effect on me, I guess. And and and I
00:45:20
guess, you know, when that opportunity
00:45:22
came up for rugby league, well, yeah, I
00:45:23
was I was all over it.
00:45:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, this was 91 after the
00:45:27
World Cup where the All Blacks finished
00:45:29
third. Seems seems like a no-brainer to
00:45:31
me. Um, what sort of money was on offer
00:45:33
for for that first league deal?
00:45:35
>> Um, do you remember?
00:45:36
>> Well, yeah. I mean, I I can't remember
00:45:39
exactly, but it was um it was it was
00:45:42
pretty reasonable kind of money for for
00:45:43
back in those days. Like nothing
00:45:45
compared to what the guys get paid
00:45:47
today, I guess. Um, but I I I think it
00:45:50
was, you know, maybe around a million
00:45:52
kind of Kiwi, something like that. um
00:45:55
over a 4-year period or whatever it was
00:45:56
and batch payments and everything else.
00:45:58
So
00:45:59
>> Oh, that's crazy money.
00:46:00
>> Well, yeah, it was certainly a lot more
00:46:02
than uh being a sales kid at at
00:46:06
Panasonic, you know, which was a great
00:46:07
job, by the way. I'm not complaining
00:46:09
about that. But um but yeah, look, it
00:46:11
was it was that that type of money.
00:46:14
Yeah, cuz I was thinking going from
00:46:17
going from being a dirty dirty that's
00:46:18
sculping tickets to get a couple of
00:46:20
grand at the end of a tour from the
00:46:21
cabbage patch to I was thinking like 50k
00:46:24
a year would have been um a substantial
00:46:25
amount of money. That's that's like a
00:46:27
no-brainer to me. Why why weren't more
00:46:29
people making the switch? Um don't know.
00:46:32
Um I guess it's kind of position
00:46:34
specific. Uh and and and and also, you
00:46:37
know, I think um you know, it was only
00:46:40
really the younger guys that they were
00:46:42
targeting that they probably had time to
00:46:44
to to make that, you know, make that
00:46:46
transition from from playing union to
00:46:48
league. Um oh, mind you, in saying that,
00:46:51
you know, Botu and John Gallagher were a
00:46:54
little bit older, I guess, but uh yeah,
00:46:55
I don't know. Um I guess they probably
00:46:58
figured that outside backs and that were
00:46:59
probably going to transition a little
00:47:00
bit easier than than others, and that's
00:47:02
kind of what they tended to go for. Who
00:47:04
did you speak to about it? You speak to
00:47:06
your parents or you speak to any
00:47:08
friends?
00:47:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I spoke to I spoke to
00:47:11
dad a lot about it. Um and u and dad
00:47:16
Yeah. Funny enough, like like I said,
00:47:18
had always been a a really big supporter
00:47:20
of everything we did. But always had
00:47:23
this thing in in my head that he always
00:47:24
told us too, you know, when it's over,
00:47:26
it's over and no one's going to care.
00:47:27
You know, when it's over, it's over. and
00:47:31
um you know keep your nose clean and um
00:47:33
you know you just do do all the right
00:47:35
things but at the end of the day you got
00:47:36
to look after yourself you know all
00:47:38
those kind of things he you know always
00:47:39
kind of said and it kind of stuck with
00:47:40
me a little bit I guess um so yeah spoke
00:47:43
to him a bit I was lucky that um Grant
00:47:46
Mar was our coach at Ponsubby and he was
00:47:48
also my accountant really good really
00:47:51
good accountant and um so I spoke to
00:47:53
Grant a lot about it he kind of became
00:47:56
like a quasi kind of agent I guess for
00:47:58
me Um and so I spoke to him about it. He
00:48:02
helped me a lot and um and so that was
00:48:04
good. So yeah, I spoke to them. Um Buck
00:48:07
was actually while I was at Bedford, he
00:48:08
was playing down the road at
00:48:09
Northampton. So um yeah, I kind of spoke
00:48:13
to Buck a little bit about it. Um but
00:48:15
but not a lot.
00:48:16
>> Yeah, I mean it was it was my decision
00:48:18
to make and you know I kind of feel like
00:48:21
I kind of made a decision based on what
00:48:24
I thought was right for for me, you
00:48:27
know. Um, and so I I don't I wasn't
00:48:31
persuaded by anyone else or was just
00:48:33
like I think, you know, um, for my
00:48:35
long-term future, this is probably going
00:48:37
to be a good move for me. Um, as long as
00:48:39
I don't stuff it up, you know. So, I was
00:48:41
always really conscious of um, making
00:48:44
sure that, you know, it was going to I
00:48:46
was going to succeed um, and I wasn't
00:48:48
going to just going to kind of blow all
00:48:49
the, you know, wasn't just going to piss
00:48:51
all the money away or whatever. I was
00:48:52
going to try and do the right things.
00:48:54
And, uh, so yeah. Uh, Certainly don't
00:48:57
regret it. It was a good move and um and
00:48:59
certainly enjoyed my time.
00:49:01
>> Oh yeah. No one no one could hold that
00:49:03
against you. Like Yeah. Are you kidding
00:49:04
me? I I know there's like pride in the
00:49:06
black jersey and it's this thing that
00:49:08
you know a dream that you almost
00:49:09
manifested from when you were a little
00:49:11
boy.
00:49:11
>> Yeah.
00:49:12
>> You know, getting up watching these
00:49:13
games in the middle of the night. But um
00:49:15
yeah, setting yourself up for a
00:49:16
financially financial secure future um
00:49:18
it seems like a no-brainer. Where where
00:49:20
did your financial literacy come from?
00:49:23
Like there's there's there's a a
00:49:24
casualty of players like when rugby went
00:49:26
professional that um you know suddenly
00:49:28
went from nothing to to big money that
00:49:30
um you know weren't equipped with the uh
00:49:33
skills to handle it. Where did it come
00:49:34
from with for you to not not do dumb
00:49:36
things?
00:49:37
>> Um I think it was just a fear of failure
00:49:40
really you know more than anything else.
00:49:42
I just you know like I said I just
00:49:43
didn't want to stuff this up. I mean,
00:49:45
you know, to give away an allback
00:49:47
career, move to the other side of the
00:49:49
world, away from your support network,
00:49:50
away from, you know, away from your
00:49:52
friends and your family and everyone
00:49:53
else, you know, to to make those kind of
00:49:56
sacrifices. And, you know, I mean, I I
00:49:58
did look at them as, you know, you got
00:49:59
to make some sacrifices to to do this.
00:50:01
If you're going to do it, well, you got
00:50:03
to make it work, right? And and it's
00:50:05
actually something I I I tell, you know,
00:50:07
the players today, you know, if um you
00:50:10
know, before they go off and play in
00:50:11
Japan or play in France or whatever,
00:50:13
it's the same exactly the same thing.
00:50:14
It's like, well, you know, make sure
00:50:16
that, you know, it's it's it's it's fun
00:50:19
and it's great to go off and have a new
00:50:21
experience, but you got to make this
00:50:22
work for you for your long-term future,
00:50:25
you know.
00:50:25
>> So, um, so yeah, and that that's kind of
00:50:28
always stuck in my mind right from the
00:50:30
start.
00:50:31
>> And how was life in Leads? So, you were
00:50:33
there for, I think, five seasons, 135
00:50:35
games.
00:50:36
>> Yeah.
00:50:36
>> Um, something you've got in common with
00:50:38
Oasis, you got to play Wembley.
00:50:40
>> What the [ __ ] What's that like? Yeah,
00:50:42
that was that was that was pretty
00:50:44
unreal. But um yeah, Leeds Le I love my
00:50:46
time in Leeds. Leeds was awesome and the
00:50:48
people up there are just, you know, were
00:50:50
fantastic. And Leeds is a pretty cool
00:50:51
city actually. It was pretty
00:50:52
metropolitan, pretty international, you
00:50:54
know, great shopping, all those kind of
00:50:56
things. Um but, you know, it's the north
00:50:59
and uh certainly a lot different from
00:51:00
being down south. Um but that's good in
00:51:02
a good way, you know. Um, and the the
00:51:05
the supporters were just so passionate.
00:51:07
Like the lead's fans are kind of crazy,
00:51:10
you know, uh, fanatical supporters and,
00:51:13
uh, you know, uh, they'll let you know
00:51:16
if you weren't if if things weren't
00:51:17
going well. You know, you you'd be
00:51:19
coming off the end at the end of a game,
00:51:21
uh, if if things hadn't gone well that
00:51:23
day and they'd be like, you know,
00:51:24
chanting, you know, what a waste of
00:51:25
money. What a waste of uh, but they'd
00:51:28
all be back there the next week. You
00:51:30
know, we are leads. We, you know,
00:51:31
they're back singing again. So, um, so
00:51:34
that was that was that was pretty cool.
00:51:36
And and, um, my first my first game was
00:51:40
on a, uh, my first league experience. I
00:51:43
never played League before, uh, was over
00:51:45
Witness was bit of a [ __ ] hole over over
00:51:49
the Penines. And, um, well, I shouldn't
00:51:51
really say that, but um, but it was a
00:51:54
cold, miserable night. And this is for
00:51:56
the second team, you know, just to kind
00:51:57
of give me a run. And, you know, we were
00:51:59
playing on a pitch that was pretty much
00:52:00
frozen over. like you needed blades like
00:52:03
skiing skating rather than uh rugby
00:52:06
boots. And uh I just remember getting
00:52:08
out there just going what the hell you
00:52:10
know what what are you doing? But um so
00:52:12
I played that game and then on the
00:52:14
Saturday I had my first game for the for
00:52:16
the first team against Rod York and that
00:52:18
was a challenge cup game and um and so
00:52:21
that was my first experience at Hingley
00:52:23
in front of this kind of full crowd and
00:52:26
uh full full stadium and it was very
00:52:28
cool and um yeah I just loved it. It was
00:52:31
you know we had great great guys um a
00:52:34
lot of Kiwis. Yeah, we had a stack of
00:52:35
Kiwis at the club. You know, your Kevin
00:52:37
Aros and your George Mans and Tony Kemp
00:52:39
and Carl Hall and so u so I was lucky to
00:52:43
be surrounded by, you know, a lot of
00:52:44
people from home and and and and the
00:52:46
English guys were awesome as well. So,
00:52:48
um yeah, Ellery Hanley and Gary
00:52:51
Scoffield and people like that, you
00:52:53
know, legends of the game. Um and and
00:52:55
that's really where where I learned the
00:52:57
game from. Doug Lorton was the coach.
00:52:59
Um, but he was more of a kind of a like
00:53:01
a football manager, you know, he wasn't
00:53:02
so kind of technical or out on the
00:53:04
field. Like we'd be training and he'd be
00:53:05
in the he'd be in his office having, you
00:53:07
know, smoking [ __ ] and uh different era.
00:53:11
>> Yeah. Yeah. But and um and so yeah, so I
00:53:14
kind of learned from the from the
00:53:15
players, you know, I basically had to
00:53:17
learn the game from from the players and
00:53:19
just getting out there and playing.
00:53:20
>> And then after five years at Wigan, you
00:53:22
end up in Perth.
00:53:24
>> Uh yeah, Leed. So um so yeah I I had in
00:53:28
my contract uh an opportunity to go off
00:53:30
and play uh an offseason in in in
00:53:33
Australia. So in my last year at Leads I
00:53:37
um I it was the first year they they had
00:53:40
um uh West the Western Reds came into
00:53:43
the into the competition as an expansion
00:53:45
team based out of Perth. Uh so yeah so
00:53:48
um Peter Mholland was the coach and he
00:53:50
came over and he signed me up and so it
00:53:52
was it was just it was like a 10 week
00:53:54
stint pretty much. So um so I went out
00:53:57
there and and and that was my first
00:53:59
experience of playing in Australia which
00:54:00
was I just Yeah. I mean it was just a
00:54:02
different different level. Um and yeah I
00:54:05
was I was kind of like this is me. This
00:54:07
is what I want to be doing.
00:54:09
>> Well and what do you mean like in terms
00:54:10
of the professionalism or the the setup
00:54:13
or what do you mean a different level?
00:54:15
>> Well it just Yeah. I mean, the English
00:54:17
game um is great, you know, um but but
00:54:20
kind of I guess not as structured as as
00:54:22
the the Australian competition and you
00:54:26
know, out of all the rugby or in rugby
00:54:28
league I've played, I mean that well
00:54:30
what is the NRL competition now is it's
00:54:33
you know it's next level. It's it's
00:54:34
tough. It's it's you know every week is
00:54:37
is tough and uh and you've got to have a
00:54:41
thick skin where you're out there
00:54:42
because there's a lot of talking going
00:54:44
on and you know there's big hits and
00:54:45
there's a lot of Yeah, it's it's I just
00:54:48
thought this is awesome. I just loved
00:54:49
it.
00:54:50
>> Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. And so and
00:54:53
we had some we had some really good
00:54:55
players at at um up there in Perth. they
00:54:58
were kind of seen as as a bunch of kind
00:55:00
of hasbins and uh you know um but you
00:55:04
know your Mark I were there and um um
00:55:07
Ronny House and people like this and we
00:55:08
actually had a quite a successful little
00:55:10
stint um so I enjoyed that but it was
00:55:13
just kind of um before I went to Perth
00:55:16
the ARL Super League thing was starting
00:55:18
to kind of heat up and I
00:55:20
>> Oh yeah yeah yeah give us a history
00:55:22
lesson for anyone that doesn't sort of
00:55:23
remember that or recall that. Yeah. What
00:55:25
was that what was that period like? Uh
00:55:27
well I mean it was basically you know
00:55:29
the pay channels kind of going the war.
00:55:31
You had um News of the World, you know
00:55:34
with um the Murdoch and then Kerry
00:55:36
Packer with Optus and um and so the game
00:55:41
kind of got fractured to to a large
00:55:43
degree and and I actually remember going
00:55:46
off to um to play golf with Bobby
00:55:48
Golding. He was um he play he was at
00:55:51
Leads when I first got the little
00:55:52
halfback. Um, and it was on the radio
00:55:56
talking about how the the English
00:55:57
competition was moving to Super League.
00:55:59
What's the Super League? And uh, anyway,
00:56:02
we just pulled up and I got this phone
00:56:04
call from a lawyer in Bradford and he
00:56:06
said, "What are you doing?" I said,
00:56:07
"We're just about to play golf." He
00:56:08
said, "Well, get your ass in the car,
00:56:09
get over to my office because the um,
00:56:12
the ARIRL guys are in town, the
00:56:13
Australian Rugby League guys." I'm like,
00:56:14
"Who who are they?" You know, what's
00:56:16
what say anyway? So, I just packed up
00:56:18
and and and headed over and walked up
00:56:20
the stairs thinking I'd be the only one
00:56:21
in the in the waiting room. I walked in,
00:56:23
there's about 10 other guys who was
00:56:24
sitting in there and all, you know, from
00:56:27
different teams from Wigan and bloody
00:56:29
Sulford or whatever. And I was kind
00:56:31
like, what's going on? Like um but one
00:56:34
by one guys were going into the
00:56:35
boardroom and kind of going in looking
00:56:37
all perplexed and and then coming up
00:56:39
with the biggest bloody grins on their
00:56:41
faces you've ever seen. And so my turn
00:56:43
came and I walked in and there was a
00:56:45
lawyer from ARIRL and Frank Stanton who
00:56:47
was who would eventually end up being um
00:56:50
he was the CEO at Manley. So he was the
00:56:52
CEO when when I when I was a manly but
00:56:54
but he was there representing the the
00:56:56
IRL. So basically we sat down they said
00:56:58
okay Craig if you sign a you know ARIRL
00:57:01
contract um you know p pledging your
00:57:05
loyalty to the IRL uh this will be in
00:57:06
your bank account within the next seven
00:57:08
days and this will be your you know um
00:57:11
minimum retainer then you got to
00:57:13
negotiate with your club on top of that.
00:57:16
And so you're looking at this going
00:57:17
Jesus you know it's a no-brainer. So
00:57:20
like, oh, I better go and talk to the
00:57:21
club about that. So we're back in two
00:57:22
and three with with leads and
00:57:24
everything. And in the end, I end up
00:57:25
signing this ARIRL contract. And that's
00:57:27
when the manly thing started to kind of
00:57:29
come into play.
00:57:30
>> So ARIRL is like the NRL now as we know
00:57:32
it.
00:57:32
>> Y can you remember what Yeah. Was it was
00:57:35
it just like a lolly scramble with cash
00:57:36
at the time?
00:57:37
>> Pretty much.
00:57:38
>> Yeah,
00:57:38
>> pretty much. It was a fantastic time to
00:57:40
be a player. There's no doubt about
00:57:41
that.
00:57:41
>> Yeah. Can you remember the sort of
00:57:42
figures?
00:57:43
>> Uh not well not really. It was they were
00:57:47
pretty big. Um and you know some some of
00:57:51
the figures that were banded around were
00:57:53
you know unbelievable for for the time
00:57:54
you know it's all relative right
00:57:56
>> but uh but there are a lot of boys that
00:57:58
did pretty well out of that the
00:58:00
unfortunate part of that was that it
00:58:02
almost crippled the game completely but
00:58:04
but what's kind of you know the phoenix
00:58:06
that rises right and what's come out of
00:58:08
that since you know that NRL competition
00:58:12
is pretty cool pretty amazing so but
00:58:14
yeah they had to go through all that to
00:58:16
get to this get to that stage
00:58:18
Did Did you see a lot of your teammates
00:58:19
do silly stuff with the cash? You know,
00:58:21
cars or I don't know, just just gifts
00:58:26
for friends or
00:58:27
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:28
>> I don't know. Like it's uh there's that
00:58:30
saying easy come easy go. It's it's hard
00:58:31
at that age. Like it's um it's really
00:58:33
impressive that you had the the the
00:58:35
foresight or the wisdom to, you know, to
00:58:37
be smart with your cash.
00:58:38
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. But I mean I guess for
00:58:40
a lot of guys um you know that aren't
00:58:43
from around money, it's hard to know the
00:58:45
value of it, right? Um and and it's the
00:58:48
same thing happening today except these
00:58:50
guys, you know, there's some pretty
00:58:52
considerable cash that's that's thrown
00:58:53
around. Um so, you know, having having
00:58:57
that kind of support network around to
00:58:59
kind of help kind of guide them through
00:59:00
that is really important. And I think
00:59:02
the you know, the NRL do a really good
00:59:04
job. Um you know, rugby here in New
00:59:06
Zealand, the players association and and
00:59:08
with the agents kind of do our bit to
00:59:10
try and help them kind of navigate all
00:59:12
that. Um, but it's hard and you can lead
00:59:15
a horse to water. Um, but at the end of
00:59:17
the day, guys got to want to do it and
00:59:19
um, yeah, people have different
00:59:21
different values and you know, for some
00:59:23
people it doesn't really matter.
00:59:24
>> Yeah, different priorities.
00:59:26
>> Different priorities. Exactly.
00:59:28
>> So, after that year in Per Oh, that that
00:59:29
year in Perth, you got to play the the
00:59:31
Warriors in their first season. Yeah.
00:59:33
How was What was that like?
00:59:35
>> Yeah, that was pretty pretty cool to
00:59:36
kind of come home and and play against
00:59:38
the Warriors. So, that bit that day. Uh,
00:59:40
and actually that was a pretty bad day
00:59:41
for Frano. um you recently had on he he
00:59:45
broke his leg in that game. I can
00:59:46
remember the bloody snap here in the
00:59:47
snap. Um it makes me kind of go oh
00:59:51
Jesus. But um yeah, but that that was
00:59:53
that was cool. That was uh yeah, but one
00:59:56
one thing I remembered um coming into
00:59:59
the on the bus to that game and it was
01:00:00
pissing down and it was a horrible night
01:00:02
and all the Australian they're all
01:00:04
saying, you know, bloody [ __ ] I'll win
01:00:06
and and um and it's always stuck with me
01:00:08
that you know um this place should be an
01:00:11
absolute fortress for the Warriors. You
01:00:13
know, no one should come here and win
01:00:15
because they all hate coming here, you
01:00:18
know,
01:00:19
>> especially in the middle 3-hour flight,
01:00:20
>> especially like in the middle of winter
01:00:22
and it's kind of damp and cold and
01:00:25
miserable and, you know, they all used
01:00:26
to run around in these singlets at
01:00:28
training buddy, you know, in Sydney and
01:00:30
Brisbane and that. I mean, this place
01:00:32
should be like they should make this
01:00:34
like you just don't, you know, you don't
01:00:36
want to come here. You don't want to
01:00:37
come here cuz you're going to get bashed
01:00:38
and you're going to be cold and
01:00:40
miserable. Do will the Warriors ever
01:00:42
win?
01:00:43
>> Yeah, I think they will. Yeah, I think
01:00:45
we will.
01:00:45
>> When in our lifetime?
01:00:47
>> Well, I hope so. You know, I hope so.
01:00:49
Um, yeah. Um, I I personally don't have
01:00:53
like a whole lot of dealings directly
01:00:54
with the Warriors. Um, I I kind of
01:00:56
concentrate with my work more in the
01:00:58
union space, but but recently I've had
01:01:00
more and more. I've got a few, you know,
01:01:01
younger players that have been involved,
01:01:03
and I'm really impressed with the the
01:01:05
way that they go about their business
01:01:06
and the way they look after the young
01:01:08
guys and, you know, they do do a really
01:01:09
good job. Um and and so that's been
01:01:11
really good to see. Um yeah, I don't
01:01:15
know. It's it's it's a hard one to put
01:01:16
your finger on. You know, I think people
01:01:19
underestimate and not making excuses,
01:01:22
but that travel aspect, I think I think
01:01:25
that it plays a bigger part than what
01:01:27
people probably appreciate. I know, you
01:01:28
know, from when I was playing in um
01:01:30
Perth and it was a longer flight, you
01:01:32
know, it's 5 hours down to Sydney or
01:01:33
whatever um as opposed to three, but
01:01:35
it's still just that that those time
01:01:37
changes and in and out and you know, um
01:01:40
I'm sure that has some kind of effect.
01:01:42
But um but at some stage, you know, I
01:01:45
think they're going to they're going to
01:01:47
come through there. Certainly the talent
01:01:49
and there's more and more that use in
01:01:51
talent. It's just it's just kind of
01:01:52
getting the right stuff and and getting
01:01:54
the right mix cuz you can't, you know,
01:01:55
you can't just have rock stars and you
01:01:57
can't just have, you know, grinders. You
01:01:59
got to have you got to have a bit of
01:02:01
everything
01:02:02
>> to win those competitions.
01:02:03
>> Yeah. There's a saying like um a a
01:02:06
champion team will always beat a team of
01:02:08
champions or something like that.
01:02:09
>> Absolutely. So true. And that's what we
01:02:11
found at um at Leads. I mean, we had
01:02:13
this team like amazing individuals, but
01:02:16
you know, we lacked kind of discipline,
01:02:18
you know, week to week discipline. We
01:02:19
we'd go and beat Wigan who were the top
01:02:21
team. We we'd beat them one week, but
01:02:23
then we go and lose to this bottom team
01:02:24
the next week. So we we you know we had
01:02:27
a team full of champions but we weren't
01:02:29
a champion team. Whereas Wigan
01:02:31
>> uh were the they had they had some
01:02:32
really good players but they just had
01:02:34
guys kind of like I guess the Crusaders
01:02:36
kind of environment now where you just
01:02:38
come in and you either kind of you know
01:02:40
you float or you sink and um and and
01:02:44
that's the type of team that wins
01:02:45
championships.
01:02:46
>> So 1996 you end up in Manley. How how
01:02:49
does By the way, Manley at the time sort
01:02:51
of like um I suppose kind of like how
01:02:52
Penri has been in recent years. It was
01:02:54
like a dynasty, right?
01:02:56
>> Just like an epic epic team. I remember
01:02:58
at the time like
01:03:00
>> Yeah. The the PepsiC Eagles. Yeah.
01:03:02
>> Yeah. There's so many supporters here in
01:03:03
New Zealand at the time. It was like
01:03:04
iconic.
01:03:05
>> Yeah.
01:03:05
>> Great team. You you were in it. Reggie
01:03:08
>> D Hler. Yeah.
01:03:09
>> Um John Hawardi. Y Steve Menses Cliffy
01:03:13
Lions just Nick Kos just goes on and on.
01:03:16
Yeah. It was it was a it was a fantastic
01:03:18
team to be part of. Um and Bob Fton was
01:03:22
a was an amazing coach um technically
01:03:24
and and you know he was a scary dude as
01:03:27
well. You know like you went in the
01:03:29
change room after the game and we you
01:03:31
know if we'd had a loss you just didn't
01:03:33
want to be you just didn't want to catch
01:03:36
his eye. Um, and you knew that he'd be
01:03:39
going straight home just to dissect, you
01:03:41
know, and he'd come to training the next
01:03:42
day and you sit there going through all
01:03:44
the analysis and everything and he, you
01:03:45
know, it was obvious he'd spent the
01:03:47
whole bloody night sitting there just
01:03:48
kind of chopping through tape and stuff.
01:03:51
>> Wow.
01:03:52
>> Um, but yeah, no, it was it was it was
01:03:54
very cool and um, yeah, kind of
01:03:56
intimidating coming into a team like
01:03:58
that, you know, just full of rock stars.
01:04:00
Um, but they were again just a bunch,
01:04:03
you know, great bunch of guys. And you
01:04:05
you um knew Matthew Ridge quite well,
01:04:08
but he didn't have anything to do with
01:04:09
like um luring you to the team, right?
01:04:11
>> No.
01:04:11
>> No,
01:04:12
>> no, no. Um no. I got a I got a phone
01:04:15
call from uh Frank Stanton, who was the
01:04:18
uh CEO
01:04:20
um and uh so I'd um I'd played against
01:04:25
Leeds had played against Australia and
01:04:28
um and we well we we got a bit of a
01:04:30
hinding, but I had reasonably good
01:04:32
night. Um and I was I was playing I was
01:04:34
marking Malmaninga. Um so I managed to
01:04:37
contain Mal which obviously impressed
01:04:39
them. Um and so um so Bob was kind of
01:04:44
like oh yeah be pretty keen to get him
01:04:45
over. So that was that was kind of how
01:04:47
it all started and unfolded from there.
01:04:51
When I was at the Reds uh went down and
01:04:53
played at Manley at Brookie um had a
01:04:55
good game there as well and I guess that
01:04:57
probably helped.
01:04:58
>> So um so yeah, next thing um yeah I'm
01:05:00
off to Manley.
01:05:02
What was the biggest surprise you got
01:05:03
when you got there in terms of like the
01:05:05
team environment and the training? Was
01:05:06
it like a different level of
01:05:07
professionalism to what you had
01:05:09
experienced before?
01:05:10
>> Yeah, it was. Yeah. Um but it was
01:05:14
the interesting thing too was with all
01:05:16
the Super League stuff going on. Um
01:05:19
there was a bit of contention about my
01:05:20
contract at um at Leeds and um and
01:05:25
whether I'd fulfilled obligations or
01:05:27
not. And and so of course you got all
01:05:29
the NRL lawyers saying well you hadn't
01:05:30
signed up to play in a you know super
01:05:33
league competition all this and cuz you
01:05:35
know they're saying you need to get over
01:05:36
you need to go to Sydney. I'm like well
01:05:38
so in the end I was like okay I'm I'm
01:05:40
off. So, um, so I I left Manly, uh,
01:05:44
Leadeds and and headed off to to Manley,
01:05:47
and I was sitting in my new apartment,
01:05:50
um, overlooking the sea on Manley Beach,
01:05:53
thinking, "This is pretty awesome." And
01:05:54
I got a knock on the door and there's
01:05:56
this guy standing there with his papers,
01:05:58
and he goes, "Yeah, Craig Innist." I
01:05:59
said, "Yeah." He goes, "You've been
01:06:00
served." And so, um, so I was, yeah,
01:06:04
I've been sued for breach of contract.
01:06:06
Um, so that kind of hung over us all the
01:06:08
way through that period as well, which
01:06:10
made things kind of interesting. Um, but
01:06:13
it was kind of taken care of by the by
01:06:14
NRL lawyers until later on it wasn't,
01:06:18
which is another kind of story down the
01:06:20
track. But um but yeah, as far as the
01:06:23
the competition, um I I I learned so
01:06:27
much in the first few weeks being at
01:06:30
Manley and just being, you know, um
01:06:32
around those players and just, you know,
01:06:35
a little bit more structure than than
01:06:37
what I was used to playing in in um in
01:06:39
England. And like I was saying before,
01:06:42
just, you know, it was just tough and
01:06:44
pretty brutal and and um but I yeah, I
01:06:48
just I just I kind of found my thing,
01:06:50
you know,
01:06:51
>> um and really really loved it. What's it
01:06:54
like going to a grand final?
01:06:56
>> Uh yeah. Well, that was Yeah, that was
01:06:58
amazing. Like um they they lost it the
01:07:01
year the year before with the with Cry
01:07:03
Bankstown. They had won the minor
01:07:04
premiership and um and they expected to
01:07:07
win that I'd lost. So going into this
01:07:08
one, we'd won the minor premiership
01:07:10
again and then going into this there was
01:07:12
no way they're going to lose this game.
01:07:14
Um so I mean sometimes you can kind of
01:07:17
be a little bit you know bit nervous
01:07:20
kind of going into these into these
01:07:22
games but that particular week no one
01:07:24
was nervous. Everyone was just like
01:07:25
let's just get out there and we just
01:07:26
want to get this done get get this in
01:07:28
the bag. And uh so to to um to kind of
01:07:33
get that as a feather in the cap was
01:07:35
pretty amazing. you know, I'm something
01:07:37
I'm really proud of in the premiership.
01:07:39
>> Yeah. And you scored the first try.
01:07:40
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:41
>> Yeah. How how how far into the game was
01:07:43
that?
01:07:44
>> Uh wasn't I don't think it was too far.
01:07:45
Maybe 10 minutes, something like that.
01:07:47
>> [ __ ]
01:07:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um scoring scoring in a
01:07:51
final is amazing. Right.
01:07:52
>> I bet John helped the ball by like a
01:07:55
quarter of a second. And I've never let
01:07:56
him live it down like telling he's the
01:07:58
slowest winger ever to play the game.
01:08:00
But um but yeah, no, it was Yeah, it was
01:08:02
pretty cool. Very cool. And there's that
01:08:05
um iconic photo of that wind.
01:08:08
>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
01:08:09
>> Just Do you have that framed at home or
01:08:11
anything?
01:08:11
>> No, I don't. No, I don't have that.
01:08:12
>> It's a beautiful photo.
01:08:13
>> Yeah, it's a great photo. Yeah.
01:08:14
>> Like there's that saying a picture says
01:08:16
a thousand words and that definitely
01:08:18
does. Like it's just elation.
01:08:20
>> Yeah.
01:08:20
>> Yeah. What's what's that vibe like in a
01:08:23
changing room after a win like that? Uh
01:08:25
well it's it's kind of it's kind of
01:08:27
bizarre because um you know there's that
01:08:30
initial excitement and you know uh but
01:08:33
but then it's almost replaced with a bit
01:08:35
of a what now? You know we've kind of
01:08:38
done it and what are we going to do?
01:08:41
What's happening next? you know, and so
01:08:43
everyone kind of sits here a little bit
01:08:45
kind of like stunned mullets for for a
01:08:47
little bit, you know, until it kind of
01:08:49
really seeps in that, you know, this is
01:08:51
what you've achieved and and then of
01:08:53
course you you know you get on the bus
01:08:55
and you head back to the to the Leagues
01:08:56
Club and you know that's absolutely cho
01:08:59
block just bursting and and that's where
01:09:00
that's when the fun really kind of
01:09:02
begins. uh you know once you get back to
01:09:04
the leads club and kind of surrounded by
01:09:05
your supporters and you know chucking up
01:09:07
on the stage and you know um so yeah the
01:09:11
whole experience was was pretty amazing
01:09:13
and kind of like I guess uh when it
01:09:15
leads going to the challenge cup um it's
01:09:18
not something I grew up ever aspiring to
01:09:22
you know to to go to Wembley and play in
01:09:24
the Challenge Cup final and just like
01:09:25
I'd never really thought about winning
01:09:28
NRL or you know rugby league
01:09:29
premierships but um But amazing to kind
01:09:34
of be part of that experience, but also
01:09:36
to share with your teammates who have
01:09:39
spent all their lives, you know,
01:09:41
manifesting that experience and going
01:09:44
through that and actually achieving
01:09:45
that, you know, and they're like Mark
01:09:47
Carroll with tears bloody rolling down
01:09:49
his cheeks and,
01:09:50
>> you know, things like that, which which
01:09:52
was pretty pretty amazing.
01:09:53
>> And do you get a ring? You get a
01:09:54
championship?
01:09:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. I got the ring.
01:09:56
>> Where's that?
01:09:58
>> Uh, it's just at home. just yeah just
01:10:01
just locked up somewhere.
01:10:03
>> Yeah.
01:10:04
>> Yeah. But but you okay so it's not it's
01:10:06
it's it's it's like a medal. It's not
01:10:08
something you wear, but it is something
01:10:09
you treasure.
01:10:10
>> No. Yeah. I think the boys are all kind
01:10:11
of wearing the lid for the first 24
01:10:13
hours or whatever. And uh but Yeah.
01:10:16
Yeah. Um they'll put away.
01:10:18
>> Yeah.
01:10:18
>> Yeah.
01:10:19
>> Man, that's unbelievable. Was Mad Monday
01:10:20
a thing back then?
01:10:21
>> Mad Monday was a big thing back then.
01:10:23
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think that's when
01:10:25
my haircut changed from uh I think I uh
01:10:29
I got down to the Stain Hotel um where
01:10:32
I'd gone home just to kind of check up
01:10:34
and make sure everyone was okay and and
01:10:35
then headed back to the Stain and
01:10:38
place was pretty much empty of all our
01:10:40
players and said to the, you know, one
01:10:42
of the bar weather and they said, "Oh,
01:10:44
they're in that back room over there."
01:10:45
So, I opened the door just all these
01:10:46
bald heads. So they had the razors out
01:10:49
and uh so they grabbed me and yeah, they
01:10:53
had the same haircut ever since.
01:10:56
>> I don't know how you got the energy to
01:10:57
party after a game like that cuz
01:10:59
physically and mentally you got to be
01:11:01
exhausted, right?
01:11:02
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just you just find
01:11:04
it find a reserve somewhere.
01:11:06
>> You find it. You just manage it. Yeah.
01:11:07
It's I mean it's a chance just to you
01:11:09
know I mean it's so intense all year,
01:11:11
you know, and to and to achieve it and
01:11:15
you know you just don't want to let it
01:11:16
go. you know, you just want to you want
01:11:17
to keep that kind of um celebration
01:11:19
going as long as you can and then
01:11:21
eventually you just run out of puff and
01:11:23
and that's it. But um but you certainly
01:11:26
make the most of it
01:11:27
>> and and that season which was
01:11:29
incredible. So bubbling under in the
01:11:31
background was all the legal stuff that
01:11:32
you were talking about before. Was that
01:11:33
happening through the entire season?
01:11:35
>> Yeah. Well, not so much. Well, then we
01:11:36
went into the second year. Um and um and
01:11:40
you know we had another good year, won
01:11:41
the minor premiership and then they end
01:11:43
up playing Newcastle in the final and we
01:11:45
end up losing that one. Um you in the
01:11:47
last kind of seconds of uh just before
01:11:50
extra time. Um Darren Albert the
01:11:53
Newcastle winger scored and that was
01:11:55
that was it. Um so that was a completely
01:11:58
different experience to winning it the
01:12:00
year before just the I guess devastation
01:12:02
of of losing a final. Um but then kind
01:12:06
of into the off season and and um uh Bob
01:12:09
Fton pul pulled me aside one day and he
01:12:12
said mate it's not going great with this
01:12:14
bloody all this legal stuff and and like
01:12:17
I was mentioning before they the leagues
01:12:20
clubs were doing it pretty tough you
01:12:22
know having to pay out all these players
01:12:24
and you know kind of pretty much bank um
01:12:26
bankrupted a lot of clubs and and that's
01:12:28
where you start to see all those merges
01:12:29
start to happen like you know and St.
01:12:31
George got together and remember Manley
01:12:34
and North kind of combined for a while.
01:12:36
Um it's all all this type of stuff all
01:12:38
on the back of you know this period
01:12:40
they've been through. Uh so it's like um
01:12:44
mate you you know um you might end up
01:12:46
having to go back to leads you know and
01:12:49
I was like well [ __ ] that you know I
01:12:51
enjoyed my time up there but you know
01:12:53
I'm kind of heading home rather than
01:12:54
kind of heading back. Um and that's when
01:12:58
we kind of engaged with with rugby union
01:13:00
as a potential, you know, and um and so
01:13:03
that's what we did and and end up kind
01:13:05
of working out this deal with with the
01:13:08
British rugby league and um like a a
01:13:11
transfer fee, compromised transfer fee
01:13:14
and and I came home and back to back to
01:13:16
Rugby Union.
01:13:17
>> Was that stressful for you at the time
01:13:19
even though there's lawyers deal dealing
01:13:20
with it? Like how do how do you fully
01:13:22
focus on on the game and the job in hand
01:13:24
when there's that going on in the
01:13:25
background? Um, I think that's well it's
01:13:29
it's all you can do, you know. I think
01:13:30
it's it's all you can do really is is
01:13:32
just kind of focus on what you can what
01:13:34
you can do. And I guess, you know,
01:13:37
>> I think that's what helps to be a decent
01:13:40
or a decent player is, you know, being
01:13:43
able to just focus on your job and let
01:13:46
stuff kind of over the, you know, over
01:13:48
the top and and and also have good
01:13:51
people around you to be able to, you
01:13:53
know, sort through all the rubbish. So
01:13:54
you can just get on get on with your
01:13:56
job.
01:13:58
>> The power is back on. Should we resume?
01:14:01
>> Did that sort of give you an insight or
01:14:03
an idea about the sort of career path
01:14:05
you could take postp profofessional
01:14:07
sport?
01:14:07
>> Yeah, I mean I guess not initially. Um
01:14:10
but but you know you kind of like
01:14:12
everyone gets to that point in their
01:14:13
careers. It's like okay what's going to
01:14:15
happen? What am I going to do next? and
01:14:17
and I had kind of started to think about
01:14:18
it because you know through my rugular
01:14:21
career you you know um you're surrounded
01:14:24
by guys with agents and you know you see
01:14:26
the good ones you and I think you you
01:14:29
start to form uh when you've been doing
01:14:30
it as long as as as I had been uh
01:14:33
forming an idea of what it takes to you
01:14:38
know um I guess be a professional rugby
01:14:41
player or league player and you know the
01:14:44
the the resource that you need around
01:14:46
you. So, you're basically um the way I
01:14:49
look at it is you know you're you're own
01:14:51
business and um and so you you know you
01:14:54
need a support network, you need your
01:14:55
family, you need your friends, you need
01:14:57
a good accountant, you need a good
01:14:59
lawyer if you need a lawyer and you need
01:15:01
an agent um that's there to kind of
01:15:03
bring it all together and really just
01:15:05
another cog in the wheel. So um so
01:15:07
that's how I started to kind of think
01:15:09
and and then one thing led to another
01:15:10
and and um through a a mutual friend
01:15:13
Tony Kemp who I played with up in
01:15:16
England. Uh Kembi had a mate Bruce Sher
01:15:19
um who was starting to dabble in in that
01:15:21
space as well. He Bruce had come from a
01:15:23
financial services type background and
01:15:25
we got together and uh yeah we started
01:15:28
um started uh I think it was called
01:15:30
direct sports uh management back in back
01:15:33
at the start and we were running around
01:15:35
in board shorts and t-shirts and you
01:15:38
know grabbed a few uh teammates as
01:15:39
clients to begin with and away we went
01:15:41
and um yeah that that was the start of
01:15:44
it really that sort of opens um this
01:15:47
last chapter uh quite nicely but first
01:15:49
first of all I've just got a couple more
01:15:51
to end with on the sports side of
01:15:52
things. Did Did you ever have an agent
01:15:54
through through your career?
01:15:56
>> Not really.
01:15:56
>> Was it just like lawyers that and
01:15:58
accountants that you leaned on or what?
01:15:59
>> Yeah. Well, well, yeah. Grant Mar, I
01:16:01
guess, was as close to an agent as as I
01:16:03
as I had. Um, and but you know, if I if
01:16:07
I look back over my career, could I have
01:16:09
done with having like on the ground, you
01:16:11
know, Grant was back in New Zealand
01:16:12
obviously, um, and and doing his his own
01:16:15
thing? He wasn't an agent as such. Um,
01:16:18
could I have done with having an agent?
01:16:19
Yeah, probably. you know, there's
01:16:21
probably a few things that would have
01:16:22
been ironed out um a lot quicker through
01:16:24
professional advice um than me trying to
01:16:27
kind of wrangle my own way through it.
01:16:29
Um but it did set me up, you know, to to
01:16:32
be able to, I guess, move into the space
01:16:33
with a bit of confidence.
01:16:35
>> Yeah. So, you moved back to New Zealand.
01:16:37
Um
01:16:38
does it piss you off that you never got
01:16:40
to play for the Kiwis?
01:16:41
>> Uh not really. Um I I guess you know
01:16:45
when when I was playing in the UK you
01:16:47
know for whatever reason you know just
01:16:50
wasn't a wasn't really kind of
01:16:52
considered um but uh I came back to
01:16:56
Australia
01:16:57
you know obviously playing pretty well
01:16:59
and at that point they were pretty keen
01:17:00
to to get me involved but the whole
01:17:02
ARIRL super league will stop that. So,
01:17:05
so New Zealand rugby league had gone
01:17:07
with the Super League. I was ARL. So, I
01:17:09
mean in a funny kind of little twist, I
01:17:11
have got a a cap, an international cap,
01:17:13
but it's for the world world 13 against
01:17:16
Australia, you know. Um, but but yeah, I
01:17:20
I guess having never grown up really
01:17:22
wanting to aspire to be a Kiwi, you
01:17:25
know, in that team, I guess, you know, I
01:17:27
mean, I I I don't sit here, you know,
01:17:29
today going, "Oh, you man, I wish I'd
01:17:31
have made that team."
01:17:33
Um, yeah, it's just, yeah, would would
01:17:36
have been nice, I guess, but at the end
01:17:37
of the day, didn't really doesn't really
01:17:38
matter to me.
01:17:39
>> It's funny that yeah, you only know what
01:17:41
you know. It's like you were saying
01:17:42
earlier about winning the um the
01:17:44
championship ring with Manley and some
01:17:46
of the guys crying and, you know,
01:17:48
because it wasn't your heritage or your
01:17:50
history, you don't sort of understand
01:17:51
just how much it means to other people.
01:17:53
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's right.
01:17:55
I mean, and that and that's not, you
01:17:56
know, taken away.
01:17:57
>> No, absolutely. you know, from from my
01:17:59
own experience and and the enjoyment I
01:18:01
got out of that. But, you know, seeing
01:18:03
those guys and it was the same in with
01:18:04
Leeds, you know, going to Wembley, like
01:18:06
Leeds hadn't been to Wembley for years
01:18:07
and and and you know, we we were off to
01:18:10
Wembley and and teammates were just like
01:18:12
they were beside themselves,
01:18:13
>> you know, I mean, that's all they'd ever
01:18:15
aspired to as footballers was to to you
01:18:18
know, that trip to Wembley. Um, and what
01:18:20
an experience, you know, 100,000 people
01:18:23
in a bloody football stadium. Pretty
01:18:25
amazing, man. It's the stuff of
01:18:27
goosebumps.
01:18:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like you
01:18:29
walk out there and you just can't
01:18:30
believe it really.
01:18:31
>> Yeah. So you return to rugby and um you
01:18:35
know that's where you end your career.
01:18:36
What what Yeah. I I think you sort of
01:18:38
answered that. I was going to ask what
01:18:39
pulled you back to New Zealand rugby,
01:18:40
but it was sort of like you had you're
01:18:42
in no man's land.
01:18:43
>> Yeah. Well, I kind of was a little bit.
01:18:45
I mean I could have come back to the
01:18:46
Warriors. Um but you know, for whatever
01:18:48
reason, you know, I I didn't want to go
01:18:51
play for another leagues club after
01:18:52
having those two amazing years at
01:18:54
Manley. um rugby was an option. Um and I
01:18:57
guess there was that, you know, that
01:18:59
little bit that you wonder if you can
01:19:00
kind of, you know, kind of get back to
01:19:02
all past glories and and continue from
01:19:04
there. But that wasn't to be. But uh but
01:19:07
yeah um I guess coming full circle was
01:19:09
was was great and um you know coming
01:19:12
back and coming home was you know it was
01:19:13
a an important time to come home and um
01:19:17
and yeah I mean the the guys I played
01:19:19
with at the blues are all you know a lot
01:19:20
of those guys are still good mates and
01:19:22
uh you know but a lot younger than the
01:19:24
group that I kind of finished with.
01:19:26
>> Yes. So where are we now? Is this the
01:19:28
late ' 90s?
01:19:29
>> Uh this is Yeah. Yep. This is late 90s.
01:19:33
>> Yeah. So you so you did you have a young
01:19:35
family then or? No.
01:19:36
>> No. Uh well I I retired around I think I
01:19:38
was about 31 32. So G Gabriel my oldest
01:19:41
was was born kind of around about that
01:19:42
time. I was just finishing off.
01:19:44
>> Yeah.
01:19:45
>> How how were those last year? So you you
01:19:46
played the um 1998 Super Rugby final.
01:19:49
>> Um no I um no things it didn't go that
01:19:54
great actually. I came home uh played
01:19:56
played in a um you know warm-up kind of
01:20:00
tournament in Australia. I went to South
01:20:01
Africa and first game I blew my knee out
01:20:03
which was uh unbelievable given like I'd
01:20:06
hardly put a bloody piece of ice on my
01:20:08
leg uh for three or four years before
01:20:11
playing league come home and and and did
01:20:13
my knee. So that was pretty much me out
01:20:15
for that you know for that entire season
01:20:17
and um so yeah it uh yeah I mean like if
01:20:20
I look back at it um you know I I I
01:20:25
enjoyed I enjoyed being back and I
01:20:26
enjoyed whether I I didn't I didn't
01:20:29
enjoy the rugby as much as I had done in
01:20:31
the past and I and I I think you know um
01:20:34
having kind of gone off and gone in a
01:20:36
different direction you know and then
01:20:37
kind of come back to it I wasn't back
01:20:39
long before I was kind of going I don't
01:20:41
know if this is you know where really
01:20:43
want to be from a rugby point of view,
01:20:45
but but from a life point of view, it
01:20:47
was exactly where I needed to be.
01:20:49
>> It's funny how it's almost like your
01:20:50
body telling you that the time's right.
01:20:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, by the time I I
01:20:55
you know, I retired, I think I was I was
01:20:57
only about 31, but you know, that year
01:21:00
kind of leading into u into into
01:21:02
retirement. Exactly that. You know, my
01:21:05
body was I just knew it was it was time
01:21:07
to give it up. you know, when when the
01:21:09
eyes are saying there's a gap and go and
01:21:11
legs are saying
01:21:13
go to hell.
01:21:14
>> Not anymore, Posty.
01:21:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's kind of like and
01:21:17
and you know, and these the younger guys
01:21:18
are getting only getting quicker. Um so,
01:21:21
yeah. So, I made the decision that, you
01:21:23
know, that was going to be it and was
01:21:24
trying to get on with other things in my
01:21:25
life.
01:21:26
>> Yeah. You were you were in um the Blues
01:21:28
with Jonah that last year, eh?
01:21:29
>> Uh yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Actually, Jonah
01:21:33
was when when I did my knee in South
01:21:34
Africa, Jonah was my roommate. And um
01:21:37
and uh yeah, I mean, like everyone's got
01:21:40
Jonah stories, you know, and and um but
01:21:42
I tell you and and it's, you know, I
01:21:44
mean, when you're in a rugby team, this
01:21:45
is just part of the course, but you
01:21:47
know, I remember Jonah staying up with
01:21:48
me pretty much all night, you know,
01:21:50
bringing ice in, making sure that I was,
01:21:52
you know, had plenty of ice for my knee
01:21:53
cuz you, you know, you're icing every
01:21:55
bloody half an hour or whatever. um
01:21:58
going out bringing back food, bringing
01:21:59
food back and he was basically my nurse
01:22:01
for 24 hours. Um you know, he was a
01:22:03
great guy and um but just one of the
01:22:05
boys.
01:22:06
>> That's such a cool story.
01:22:08
>> Oh, it's you know,
01:22:09
>> look after the old guy.
01:22:10
>> Yeah, look after the old boys. Yeah.
01:22:12
Yeah, exactly. But um Yeah. Yeah. No, he
01:22:16
Yeah, that's what you'd expect. They
01:22:18
kind of, you know, it's there's no kind
01:22:20
of ears and graces. Uh doesn't matter
01:22:23
who you are, it's everyone mucks in.
01:22:25
Were you were you when you knew the end
01:22:27
was in sight? Were you sort of like
01:22:28
anxietyridden? Like were you worried
01:22:30
about the next chapter? I I just like
01:22:34
very few people get to experience what
01:22:35
you've experienced like you know the
01:22:36
roar of the crowd or you know whether
01:22:38
it's running in out in Wembley or you
01:22:41
know um winning a league title or you
01:22:43
know finishing third in a rugby world
01:22:45
cup. I can't imagine how uh terrifying
01:22:47
that is knowing that that chapter's
01:22:49
ending and uh whether anything in life's
01:22:51
going to bring you the same sort of
01:22:52
level of joy again.
01:22:53
>> Yeah. No true. It's uh yeah, it's you
01:22:56
you you certainly need to be thinking
01:22:58
about it well well before you know that
01:23:00
uh that message comes from the CEO
01:23:02
whatever that mate there's no more
01:23:04
contracts and she's a pretty steep curve
01:23:06
down as far as earnings and everything
01:23:08
else go you know when you've you know
01:23:10
when when that when that message comes
01:23:12
so yeah I've been thinking about it for
01:23:14
a while and and talking to different
01:23:15
people so you know I was kind of ready
01:23:17
to I was ready I was you know I' I'd
01:23:20
kind of satisfied with where I was at as
01:23:22
far as what I'd achieved D and and I was
01:23:24
ready actually ready to move on with the
01:23:26
next part of my life. So, you know, I
01:23:27
don't I don't kind of look back and go,
01:23:29
"Oh, you know, did I really miss it or
01:23:31
anything?" Not really. You know, there
01:23:32
was plenty of other opportunities and
01:23:34
other other challenges out there. And
01:23:36
so, it's just a matter of getting on
01:23:37
with it.
01:23:39
>> A lot I mean, you you'd be you'd know
01:23:40
more about this than what anyone would.
01:23:42
Um, but a lot of people, I suppose,
01:23:44
struggle with that piece, like the piece
01:23:45
about what's next. You must see this
01:23:46
time and time again, year in year out.
01:23:48
>> Yeah.
01:23:49
>> Um,
01:23:50
>> yeah. How how long did it take you to
01:23:52
figure out you sort of mentioned a few
01:23:53
names before like Tony Kemp and um
01:23:55
Bruce?
01:23:56
>> Bruce.
01:23:56
>> Y
01:23:57
>> So you sort of did they sort of like
01:23:58
talk you into this idea or did you have
01:24:00
the idea? Oh, no. I kind of had had the
01:24:02
idea myself and, you know, talking to
01:24:04
Kemp and that and he said, "Well, you
01:24:05
need to talk to Bruce because he's, you
01:24:06
know, he's starting to think about stuff
01:24:08
like this and start you starting to
01:24:09
dabble and had a couple of clients and
01:24:11
and so we we spoke and our philosophies
01:24:14
pretty much matched up on what we
01:24:15
thought, you know, and and it was good.
01:24:17
where, you know, me coming from a
01:24:19
professional playing background, so kind
01:24:20
of understanding that side of things and
01:24:22
and Bruce coming from a financial
01:24:24
services type background and, you know,
01:24:26
really staunch on, you know, budgeting
01:24:28
and and uh, you know, making sure that
01:24:30
these guys had good advice all the way
01:24:32
through. So, he he brought that. So, we
01:24:34
actually had a really good mix to kind
01:24:35
of go out there and and um, you know,
01:24:37
pitch for new clients, whatever.
01:24:39
and and I often kind of certainly
01:24:42
certainly in the early days used to pull
01:24:43
them up quite a bit and say, "Mate, you
01:24:45
know, you can be mowing your bloody lawn
01:24:46
sticks the way you you know, stop make
01:24:49
him get out there and do it, you know."
01:24:51
Um but but it worked. It worked really
01:24:53
well and and and our partnership kind of
01:24:56
went all the way through to today
01:24:57
really.
01:24:58
>> Who who some of your early clients?
01:25:01
>> Um
01:25:01
>> can you drop some names or is it sort of
01:25:03
um frowned upon? Um yeah, I mean early
01:25:07
clients um well I can tell you the first
01:25:10
client we ever put into Japan for
01:25:12
instance was Romy Roati and if you
01:25:14
remember Romy's played for the Holland
01:25:16
>> um and a good lesson there was you go
01:25:19
and play for Toyota you don't roll up in
01:25:21
a BMW uh
01:25:24
>> it's got to be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
01:25:27
>> yeah um Oh god. Uh Jerome Kono. Um, you
01:25:30
know, Drone was one of those guys that
01:25:32
we picked up as a school boy and we had
01:25:35
all the way through his career and even
01:25:37
now, you know, he's um and guys, you
01:25:39
know, those kind of guys, they're always
01:25:42
client, you know, we're always there if
01:25:43
they ever need us for anything, you
01:25:45
know. Um, but yeah, it's a it's a
01:25:47
massive fl I'll I'll get kind of lost in
01:25:50
it. But um but yeah, we we've had some
01:25:52
great clients over the years.
01:25:53
>> Well, you've got so much credibility and
01:25:55
you've been doing it so long like uh you
01:25:57
know Yeah, you're very early to the
01:25:58
game, right? Yeah. Um and with that
01:26:00
comes like credibility and experience
01:26:02
and a whole bunch of stuff. What what is
01:26:04
it about um Japan that makes it such a
01:26:06
fascinating or intriguing rugby
01:26:07
destination? Can't be just the money.
01:26:09
>> Um no, it's not just the money. The
01:26:11
money's, you know, it's on par with, you
01:26:13
know, the likes of France and and and
01:26:15
the UK. Um but I I think just the fact
01:26:18
that it's so close to home, you know,
01:26:20
it's a like 10-hour flight. Um and I
01:26:23
think the guys like that. um as far as
01:26:26
as far as longevity goes, you know, it's
01:26:28
a it's a good competition these days. I
01:26:30
mean, they um they they have a lot of
01:26:32
the best players in the world are
01:26:33
playing in that competition. Um but the
01:26:35
unique thing is, you know, you might
01:26:36
have World Cup winners playing next to
01:26:39
guys who still driving a truck for the
01:26:41
uh you know, for the company and then
01:26:43
turning up the training at 5:00 and then
01:26:45
going back and drive the truck in the
01:26:46
morning. And so you've got that kind of
01:26:48
mix of full full-on professionals and
01:26:51
amateur players, you know, all kind of
01:26:53
combined into one. So, so it's a pretty
01:26:56
unique type of environment, but they
01:26:57
they do a good job of looking after the
01:26:59
families. You know, they um um yeah,
01:27:02
they have good accommodation. Um you
01:27:04
know, they're pretty law, the Japanese
01:27:06
as far as you look after them, you do
01:27:08
the right thing by them. And we tell the
01:27:10
guys, you know, you go to Japan, you got
01:27:11
to change your focus a little bit. You
01:27:13
know, you're there to to help bring on
01:27:15
the other Japanese players to to set a
01:27:17
good example in the gym and, you know,
01:27:19
and to obviously to help them win games.
01:27:21
But if you know you you keep your nose
01:27:22
clean, you stay out of trouble, if you
01:27:24
do all these things, well, you could be
01:27:25
there for a long long time. So guys do,
01:27:27
you know, some some of them been up
01:27:29
there for bloody 10 years.
01:27:31
>> And um what's the most frustrating thing
01:27:33
about your your job? Like what do people
01:27:34
think you do versus what you actually
01:27:36
do? And has has the movie um Jerry
01:27:37
Maguire with Tom Cruz um ruined
01:27:41
everything for you? Does it is it a pain
01:27:43
in your ass?
01:27:43
>> Um not not really cuz we you know that's
01:27:46
kind of I guess that's been our
01:27:47
philosophy. It's kind of along those
01:27:49
lines of a Jerry McGuire, you know,
01:27:50
where it's not just about
01:27:53
>> showing you the money.
01:27:54
>> Yeah. It's not about just kind of doing
01:27:56
the the contract side of it's actually
01:27:57
probably the easiest. It's, you know,
01:27:59
the the the most satisfaction you get is
01:28:02
the that pathway just helping to, I
01:28:05
guess, keep momentum going in someone's
01:28:07
career. And of course, there's always,
01:28:08
you know, these injuries and these loss
01:28:10
of form and, you know, all sorts of
01:28:12
drama that go on in in people's lives.
01:28:14
And it's kind of navigating through all
01:28:16
that to eventually, you know, finish
01:28:18
your career with, like I was saying
01:28:20
earlier, with something a little bit
01:28:21
more to show than a few rugby jerseys
01:28:23
and a few trips away. Um, and if they
01:28:25
can do that and if you've been part of
01:28:27
that, that's that's pretty rewarding.
01:28:29
>> And in 2022, um, you were acquired by
01:28:33
Wasserman. What is Wasiman for anyone
01:28:36
that doesn't know.
01:28:37
>> Uh, so Wasiman are are are a big, um,
01:28:40
American, uh, sports entertainment
01:28:42
company. So on this on the sports side
01:28:45
of things, um you know, all the American
01:28:47
sports, you know, the uh NFL, NBA, uh
01:28:51
Major League Baseball, you name it,
01:28:53
they're they're into it. Um uh football,
01:28:56
probably the biggest football agency in
01:28:58
the world, um up in Europe. Um on the
01:29:01
entertainment side of things, you know,
01:29:02
they manage, uh the likes of Coldplay
01:29:05
and Drake, and look, it just goes on and
01:29:07
on. Um, so it was started by this guy
01:29:09
Casey Wasserman. Um, who, you know,
01:29:13
started off with with a few people and
01:29:14
just kind of grew this kind of piece of
01:29:17
of a company. Um, and basically they
01:29:20
just took us as their rugby and rugby
01:29:22
league guys and bolted us on because
01:29:24
there was no one doing that. Uh, after
01:29:26
they after they acquired us, they went
01:29:28
out and bought another company, CSM,
01:29:30
which was big English uh, sports
01:29:31
entertainment company and the only real
01:29:33
crossover was rugby. Um so you know guys
01:29:36
that we've been throwing hand grenades
01:29:38
at you know over the years where all of
01:29:39
a sudden they're our um our colleagues
01:29:42
you know which was kind of interesting
01:29:44
but um but it's been it's been awesome.
01:29:46
So what what we've been able to create
01:29:48
is this great you know rugby and rugby
01:29:50
league agency um like you know France
01:29:53
has 21 agents and they basically you
01:29:56
know the whole French team are clients
01:29:59
the whole 23 of them 24 clients same in
01:30:02
the UK you know big number of those
01:30:04
Lions clients um so around there in
01:30:06
South Africa um but the good thing is
01:30:09
that we're basically just been left
01:30:11
alone to carry on and do what we do you
01:30:13
know but with this resourcing behind us
01:30:15
you know and and and this network this
01:30:17
amazing network around the world for our
01:30:19
players to tap into. So uh so we're very
01:30:22
lucky in in in that respect that we can
01:30:24
do what we've always done and offer the
01:30:26
same kind of services and you know do
01:30:28
all that but with this resource bonus as
01:30:30
well.
01:30:30
>> I mean it's every business owner's dream
01:30:32
right to start something from scratch
01:30:34
and build it up to the point where
01:30:35
someone wants to buy it out. So are you
01:30:37
on a salary now?
01:30:39
>> Yeah, I'm basically
01:30:40
>> you're a wage slave.
01:30:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:42
>> Oh my god, that's so cool.
01:30:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
01:30:44
>> you still love it? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I
01:30:46
And I've been able to change my role.
01:30:48
Um, so with with Eastport and that was
01:30:51
who we were before. Um, and actually the
01:30:54
Eastport story was quite cool too
01:30:55
because you know we there was Bruce and
01:30:57
and Duncan Sandlat who's another Kiwi
01:31:00
had been up in the UK and specializing
01:31:02
coaching. Um, but we wanted to turn it
01:31:05
into this global thing, but we didn't
01:31:06
really know how to go about it. And um,
01:31:08
Duncan just happened to be seated next
01:31:10
to this guy. Um, um, uh, oh god damn.
01:31:15
I've got a I've got a blank. Um Oh,
01:31:19
Peter Kenyon. Peter Kenyon who was who
01:31:21
had been the CEO at Manchester United
01:31:23
and Chelsea and u so he was telling he
01:31:28
was telling Peter that you know we
01:31:29
wanted to create this thing and you know
01:31:31
do you know anyone that could help us
01:31:32
kind of bring it all together and he
01:31:33
said oh yeah I can probably help you
01:31:35
with that. So um so we jumped Bruce and
01:31:38
I jumped on a on a plane and we went up
01:31:39
to Jersey up to where um where Peter was
01:31:42
and we basically sat in a room for three
01:31:44
three days with him and we came out with
01:31:46
this international company. He kind of
01:31:47
brought people in from around the world.
01:31:49
Um and at the end of it we got cheeky
01:31:51
with him and said you know you got any
01:31:52
interest? He said yeah. So he became our
01:31:55
um our uh chairman and um yeah and off
01:31:59
we went and kind of built this Cortif
01:32:01
rugby business which was which was
01:32:03
pretty cool. And I remember being on the
01:32:05
plane um going back with Bruce and just
01:32:07
going I mean has that just really
01:32:08
happened or all of a sudden we've got
01:32:10
the former Manchester United and Chelsea
01:32:13
CEO is our is our rugby chairman. Does
01:32:16
he know what he's doing? So um so that
01:32:18
was pretty cool.
01:32:20
>> Well I suppose you're like well sport is
01:32:21
sport like if he can if he can do it at
01:32:23
that level for the round ball he can do
01:32:24
it at this level for the oval. Well, he
01:32:26
was just a great sounding board, you
01:32:28
know, for all sorts of things. And um
01:32:29
and then of course when the Wasman thing
01:32:31
came along,
01:32:32
>> his knowledge and and expertise was
01:32:34
invaluable really.
01:32:35
>> And the the Wasman deal, is that um is
01:32:38
that confidential knowledge? Is it
01:32:39
public knowledge?
01:32:41
>> Uh
01:32:41
>> how how much it sold for?
01:32:43
>> Uh no, it's confidential.
01:32:45
>> Yeah.
01:32:45
>> Was it was it a good day for it to be
01:32:47
Craig and us? Uh yeah, I mean like you
01:32:49
know we got partners of course at Esport
01:32:52
so um but but yeah look it was it was I
01:32:54
I guess nice to um to to get rid of some
01:32:58
risk.
01:32:59
>> Yeah, I've had um numerous um like
01:33:02
successful founders and entrepreneurs on
01:33:03
the show and they all say the same sort
01:33:05
of thing that it's like a a strange day
01:33:07
and it's actually quite underwhelming um
01:33:09
the day you sell because it's like you
01:33:11
you've come into some money or financial
01:33:13
reward but also like you've sold like a
01:33:15
part of you like a limb in a way. Is
01:33:17
that a fair way to explain it?
01:33:18
>> Yeah. And and and the thing I guess we
01:33:20
underestimated was, you know, telling
01:33:22
staff, you know, um who who got really
01:33:25
attached to the whole Esportif kind of
01:33:27
brand, you know, and and it's like,
01:33:29
well, what do you mean, you know, we
01:33:30
going to keep the name or um and so that
01:33:33
was that was really interesting. and and
01:33:35
then having to kind of get out there and
01:33:36
re- kind of you know reso and and um you
01:33:39
know get that was name out there cuz I
01:33:40
mean you know it's a big big agency in
01:33:43
the states big agency in Europe but you
01:33:45
know no one knows who the hell wasman
01:33:47
are around here so um so that's a
01:33:50
challenge to really kind of grow it
01:33:51
>> al so staff had sort of bought into like
01:33:53
the culture or the loyalty and
01:33:55
>> yeah yeah we're on the move again but uh
01:33:58
yeah but you know at the end of the day
01:34:00
like I said you know we're basically
01:34:01
doing the same stuff that you know that
01:34:03
we've always And um and and and for me
01:34:06
personally, it's been great because it's
01:34:08
been able to change my focus a little
01:34:10
bit. So I spent a lot of time
01:34:12
concentrating in the international
01:34:13
markets, but now you know being based
01:34:15
down in Hawks Bay and you know what a
01:34:17
great kind of part of the world for
01:34:19
talent down around there. Um it's
01:34:21
allowed me to kind of go out and and get
01:34:22
my own kind of roster of of domestic
01:34:24
clients. U which is I'm just loving. you
01:34:27
know, I've got this great group of young
01:34:28
players who, you know, I think will come
01:34:30
through, you know, over the next few
01:34:32
years and, you know, we'll be able to
01:34:34
talk about a few of them, but uh but but
01:34:36
it's been good because, you know, you've
01:34:37
obviously been there yourself through
01:34:39
the age group stuff and and then onto
01:34:41
that next step and be able to pass that
01:34:43
knowledge on. It's pretty cool.
01:34:44
>> Oh, is that how it kind of works? So,
01:34:46
people don't um like look you up or call
01:34:48
you up, you've got to go out and sort of
01:34:49
like try and find them young.
01:34:51
>> Oh, bit of bit bit of both. Bit of both.
01:34:53
Yeah. Oh,
01:34:54
>> so you got to go like talent spotting.
01:34:55
Yeah. or or do people message you and
01:34:57
say, "Hey, hey, Posty, there's this kid
01:34:59
here."
01:34:59
>> Both. Both. Yeah.
01:35:00
>> What's the What's the youngest kid that
01:35:02
you've had on your radar?
01:35:04
>> Well, I mean, it's it's um I mean, most
01:35:06
of them are, you know, the youngest
01:35:08
would maybe be year 11, year 12, kind of
01:35:11
around there. Most of them tend to be um
01:35:13
transitioning from that year 12 to year
01:35:15
13. Um and and to be honest, I mean
01:35:18
that's for a lot of these guys, um
01:35:20
that's a pretty important period because
01:35:23
you know, you've got the same you got
01:35:24
the franchise, you know, super rugby
01:35:26
franchises, the NRL clubs, they're all
01:35:28
kind of chasing around this small little
01:35:29
group of you know, of players. Um and so
01:35:32
for parents and for the kids that are
01:35:34
getting phone calls from NRL clubs,
01:35:36
getting, you know, I mean, having advice
01:35:38
and having the right people kind of
01:35:40
being able to coordinate that um is
01:35:42
pretty important. So that's when we
01:35:43
start to get involved. Like when we
01:35:45
first started, I never dreamt that we'd
01:35:47
be talking to kids at school. They all
01:35:48
tended to be like 21, 22 year olds, but
01:35:50
that's that's all changed. Um if we were
01:35:53
doing football, I mean, you'd be talking
01:35:54
to a bloody 11 year olds, you know, it's
01:35:56
kind of crazy. So, thank God we're not
01:35:58
at that point. But um but it's very
01:36:00
competitive, you know, and and the the
01:36:02
the the thing is that, you know, the NRL
01:36:06
clubs are in that pool. They they're
01:36:07
chasing the same kids that the
01:36:09
franchises are. So, it's a pretty small
01:36:11
group. So, um, so it's very competitive.
01:36:14
>> Mhm.
01:36:17
>> Yeah. When you're dealing with, let's
01:36:18
say, school kids or or their parents,
01:36:20
um, yeah. What's the sort of tone of the
01:36:23
conversation? Like, are you managing
01:36:24
their expectations or are you are you
01:36:26
telling them that it's potential pathway
01:36:28
for their son or daughter to make money
01:36:30
as a professional athlete? A combination
01:36:32
of both.
01:36:32
>> Um, it's it's a little bit of both. Um
01:36:34
because you know the fact is that when
01:36:36
they're at school most of them aren't
01:36:38
going to go through to being
01:36:39
professional players even if they've
01:36:41
been the best team in their first 15 or
01:36:43
you know I think you know the stats on
01:36:45
um New Zealand schools players for
01:36:47
instance that team going through to you
01:36:48
know super rugby it's about 20 odd% or
01:36:51
30% maybe max. So it's not high. Um so
01:36:55
their focus is really like you know um
01:36:59
rather than working your education or
01:37:01
your job around your rugby it's kind of
01:37:03
got the other way around to a to a large
01:37:05
degree you know your education's got to
01:37:07
be number one first certainly in the
01:37:09
first instance you know for those first
01:37:11
few years if you're if you're a bloody
01:37:12
good footballer and you're going to play
01:37:13
super rugby um by the time you get to
01:37:15
playing signing a super rugby contract
01:37:18
um you get to that point forget about
01:37:20
your schooling for a while yeah you're
01:37:22
going to be you know um it's it's
01:37:25
full-on rugby. Um so those first couple
01:37:27
of years are really important to kind of
01:37:29
you know just get that ground and get in
01:37:30
there, get stuck into into the
01:37:32
schoolwork and make sure that um you
01:37:34
know you're getting into a point where
01:37:36
you know after a while you can start
01:37:37
picking up papers again and kind of work
01:37:39
through it. But um but rugby takes over
01:37:42
for for a long period.
01:37:44
>> Are there many kids that you spend like
01:37:46
a lot of time with nurturing and
01:37:47
developing and you never see a scent?
01:37:49
>> Oh yeah, heaps. Yeah, like a stack of
01:37:51
them. Yeah.
01:37:52
>> Yep. Yep. And and that's a hard
01:37:54
conversation with, you know, some of
01:37:55
these guys. It's like, mate, I think you
01:37:57
need to concentrate on, you know,
01:37:59
>> getting else getting into the work.
01:38:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. And because, you know,
01:38:02
everyone's got a dream.
01:38:03
>> Yeah.
01:38:04
>> You know, and it's a pretty hard thing
01:38:05
to hear, but uh you're kind of doing
01:38:07
them a disservice if you if you're just
01:38:09
kind of dragging them along and
01:38:10
>> give them false hope.
01:38:11
>> Give them false hope. So, um,
01:38:13
>> have you got better at those
01:38:14
conversations?
01:38:15
>> Yeah, I think Well, yeah, it's just a
01:38:16
conversation you got to have, you know?
01:38:18
It's just you're just not being fair if
01:38:19
you if you, you know, if if you're not
01:38:21
having that conversation. M
01:38:23
>> um and and it's it is it's it's a really
01:38:25
hard conversation to have and even for
01:38:27
some of the older guys, you know, that
01:38:28
might have been knocking on that door,
01:38:29
black door for a while and you know,
01:38:31
there might be an opportunity overseas,
01:38:33
whatever. It's like, you know, uh
01:38:34
sometimes it's the only opportunity
01:38:36
they'll get. Sometimes you'll get the
01:38:38
well, you know, just kind of feel like I
01:38:40
need to give it more of a crack here for
01:38:42
a while and chase that dream. And
01:38:44
sometimes, you know, that that dream's
01:38:46
not it's not it's not it's not reality,
01:38:48
you know. Um but you know at the end of
01:38:51
the day um
01:38:53
you don't want to encourage guys to go
01:38:55
off and do other things until they've
01:38:58
satisfied themselves that um they're
01:39:01
ready to move on.
01:39:02
>> What about success stories? Like is
01:39:04
there anyone that springs to mind that
01:39:05
you spotted like at still at school age
01:39:07
that has um gone through to have a
01:39:09
phenomenal career? Uh well I mean
01:39:11
Drromes obviously won. Um Mos to um he
01:39:14
was a favorite you know. Well, they
01:39:16
they've all been favorites, but um but
01:39:19
Mo was great. you know, he um he he
01:39:21
started I remember sitting in with Bruce
01:39:23
s sitting in the lounge at his mom and
01:39:25
dad's you know uh selling them the dream
01:39:28
and um and then Moss um you know played
01:39:31
for Oakland for a while and then up to
01:39:32
North and and and then ended up down in
01:39:34
Crusaders where he became a bit of a
01:39:36
legend down there and then we got him up
01:39:38
to Japan and you know he was at Yamaha
01:39:41
for for years and you know in the
01:39:43
meantime wife kids come along so and
01:39:46
that's the cool thing you know these
01:39:47
guys that start as kids basically. And
01:39:51
then you're seeing them kind of progress
01:39:52
through their career and and and and
01:39:54
also the family kind of situation
01:39:56
changing and and you know as the as the
01:39:59
um as those priorities change, their
01:40:02
priorities change as far as you know the
01:40:05
money becomes obviously becomes more
01:40:06
important when uh you know there's
01:40:08
mortgages to pay and everything else.
01:40:10
>> So um but but yeah, that's that's the
01:40:13
real rewarding part of it.
01:40:15
>> And how how close is your relationship?
01:40:17
like is is it a month or six weeks every
01:40:19
year where where it's um like intense
01:40:21
negotiations or are you um sending them
01:40:24
a text before each game or you know a
01:40:26
condolence message if they injure
01:40:27
themselves?
01:40:28
>> Yeah, bit bit of everything really. Bit
01:40:30
of all of that. Um you know obviously
01:40:32
when when there's contract negotiations
01:40:34
are on it's pretty intense. Um you know
01:40:37
you don't want to be living in people's
01:40:38
pockets either you know. Um but um but
01:40:42
yeah, look at different times of the
01:40:43
year different things are going on and
01:40:45
then you you know there's obviously more
01:40:46
contact and and when that's not
01:40:48
happening if you know they play well to
01:40:50
send him a text if things aren't going
01:40:51
very well how you going mate you okay
01:40:54
you know rehabbing through injuries you
01:40:56
know and that's one thing I I guess
01:40:57
having been a former player as a you
01:40:59
know um of I'm able to kind of I guess
01:41:03
you know have that understanding of you
01:41:05
see a guy on TV go down and he's holding
01:41:08
his knee and you can just see seeing
01:41:09
their face. I just cuz they just know
01:41:11
that, you know, for the next 6 months or
01:41:13
a year or whatever, they're just sitting
01:41:15
on a bike or, you know, the team are out
01:41:17
and you just don't feel like you're part
01:41:18
of the team, you know, so you you've got
01:41:20
that empathy um and you understand what
01:41:22
they're going through, which I think
01:41:24
kind of helps.
01:41:25
>> Oh, 100%. What's um the one piece of
01:41:27
advice players typically never listen to
01:41:29
until it's too late.
01:41:31
Uh,
01:41:34
I think timing as far as moving on can
01:41:37
can be a, you know, can be an issue
01:41:39
sometimes.
01:41:40
>> Oh, you can understand why though,
01:41:41
right?
01:41:41
>> Oh, totally.
01:41:42
>> Especially if it's all you know and
01:41:43
>> Yeah.
01:41:44
>> You think um it was like this when I
01:41:46
finished up with radio like the last
01:41:47
couple of years before I finished, I'd
01:41:48
be looking up seek and stuff to see what
01:41:50
other jobs I could do and it's like I
01:41:51
don't want to earn that.
01:41:52
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm I'm talking
01:41:55
also from you know from New Zealand to
01:41:57
the that next stage in their careers or
01:41:59
whatever. like it's just cuz it's all
01:42:00
timing, you know, you know, your your
01:42:02
values up here and then you're kind of
01:42:04
down here and you know what I mean? It's
01:42:06
it's your timing is really important. Uh
01:42:09
just getting all that right. So, um so I
01:42:11
guess that's that's one thing.
01:42:13
>> What is New Zealand rugby currently
01:42:15
doing right and what could we be doing
01:42:16
better for players?
01:42:18
>> Um I think it's a really interesting
01:42:21
time at the moment. Like I, you know, I
01:42:23
I worried about the game to be honest,
01:42:25
you know, here in New Zealand. Um and
01:42:26
and the game is a spectacle, you know.
01:42:30
Um in terms of what?
01:42:32
>> Well, yeah, you know, I mean, I I I
01:42:34
guess I get as frustrated as anyone
01:42:36
watching a test match where after 5
01:42:38
minutes you got three or four players in
01:42:39
the bin and the TMOs bringing players
01:42:41
back after, you know, like like a knock
01:42:44
on that happened six phases and you
01:42:46
know, like all that kind of stuff I
01:42:47
think is really messing with the game as
01:42:49
a spectacle. You especially if I'm
01:42:51
comparing it to like NRL for instance.
01:42:54
Um so I I think they really need to sort
01:42:56
that out and as a as a spectacle um here
01:43:01
in you know as far as rugby here in New
01:43:04
Zealand um what worries me I guess more
01:43:07
than anything else is what I what I see
01:43:11
is the erosion of the what you know
01:43:14
what's the fabric that's underpinned us
01:43:16
and made us different to everywhere else
01:43:18
in the world. Um, and I'm talking about
01:43:20
things like, you know, um, age group
01:43:23
rugby, for instance, and and not having,
01:43:26
um, representative rugby up to a certain
01:43:28
age group. Um, you know, things like
01:43:30
roller mules, which was so important,
01:43:33
um, for us as kids, you know, just to
01:43:36
aspire to those kind of teams and just
01:43:38
do anything to kind of make the grade,
01:43:41
including losing weight and everything
01:43:42
like that. Um, but the age group stuff I
01:43:46
think's, you know, I mean, there'll be
01:43:49
experts out there to tell you that's
01:43:50
just the way it is, but I, you know, I
01:43:52
just can't see how that's a good thing
01:43:54
>> to not give kids that that um that that
01:43:57
really, you know, that competitive um
01:43:59
rugby and and and something to be
01:44:01
aspiring to all the time. Um, so that
01:44:04
that that really worries me. Um and you
01:44:07
know um just the state of I guess club
01:44:10
rugby and you know it's a different
01:44:13
society's changed and you know things
01:44:15
are different
01:44:16
>> and um and a lot of stuff is probably
01:44:19
out of everyone's control but
01:44:22
>> um you know when I see like New Zealand
01:44:24
schools team getting cleaned up by the
01:44:26
Australians by 80 points for instance
01:44:28
you know when I see like you know all
01:44:30
black teams kind of you know getting
01:44:32
cleaned up um like the South Africans
01:44:35
and you know stuff like that.
01:44:37
>> Um there's something not right you know
01:44:40
uh and I think it comes back to high
01:44:42
performance
01:44:43
and um and you know I I guess you know
01:44:47
we've got a lot of really talented rugby
01:44:48
players in there. I know that you know I
01:44:50
watch a lot of school boy rugby there's
01:44:51
a lot of talent but I'm just wondering
01:44:53
if if we're letting them down with the
01:44:55
pathway we're giving them and you know
01:44:57
to kind of get to that point. We haven't
01:44:58
run a uh under 20s
01:45:01
uh World Cup for a number of years now.
01:45:04
And it's you know there's it's it's not
01:45:06
by
01:45:08
um it's it's it's not by um mistake that
01:45:12
um the likes of England, France, South
01:45:15
Africa, you know, have dominated that
01:45:17
under 20s over the last few years and
01:45:19
other teams are doing really well at the
01:45:21
moment, right? Um
01:45:22
>> so so yeah, you know, I don't know. Um
01:45:26
we've got a lack of money in the country
01:45:27
of course. Um you know I think New
01:45:29
Zealand rugby is you know we've always
01:45:31
been hanging in there by the skin of our
01:45:33
teeth just by the nature of you know um
01:45:36
where we are in the world as far as um
01:45:40
you know it's we're we're a small island
01:45:42
in in the middle of nowhere. Um you know
01:45:45
the South Africans going off to play uh
01:45:47
up in Europe. I mean that was always
01:45:49
going to happen. you know, I mean,
01:45:50
that's where the money is and that is uh
01:45:55
on the same timeline as as the UK, South
01:45:57
Africa. It just made sense, but it's
01:45:59
it's I think it's done real damage to
01:46:01
our game here.
01:46:03
>> It's Yeah, funny just a little
01:46:04
observation. I think that's the longest
01:46:06
answer you've given today and it's an
01:46:07
answer that's talking about the sport in
01:46:08
general rather than about yourself.
01:46:10
>> Are you more is is this your passion?
01:46:12
You just or you just more comfortable
01:46:13
talking about the broader game than than
01:46:16
>> Well, I mean, like I was thought about
01:46:17
it before I kind of came in. I don't
01:46:18
want to be negative Nancy, right? But
01:46:20
but I but I I think you know I'm a
01:46:22
realist as well and um you know I mean
01:46:26
some people follow the Yankees and other
01:46:27
people follow Manchester. I mean the All
01:46:29
Blacks are my team and you know we're
01:46:32
regardless whether you know was lucky
01:46:34
enough to play for them or not you know
01:46:36
it's following this team has been a big
01:46:38
part of my life
01:46:40
>> and um you know you know um everything
01:46:44
about it about the All Blacks is um is
01:46:47
is you know something that I've I've
01:46:50
enjoyed being a an All Black supporter.
01:46:53
So to see I guess um this change you
01:46:58
know I think there's there's a real
01:46:59
change that's gone on and how do we get
01:47:01
it back on you know that's that's the
01:47:03
question.
01:47:04
>> Yeah and and you're in a a unique
01:47:06
position where you can comment on this
01:47:07
as as I've mentioned earlier I think
01:47:08
there's been something like 1200 all
01:47:10
blacks in the history of New Zealand. So
01:47:11
you're part of a very very small group
01:47:13
of people. Um, yeah, from what you're
01:47:16
saying, it sounds like it's like a a
01:47:18
bigger problem rather than just like a a
01:47:20
coaching specific problem or a current
01:47:22
moment in time problem. But yeah, did
01:47:24
did your your paths ever cross with
01:47:26
Razer as a player?
01:47:28
>> Um, do you play against each other in
01:47:29
the tail end of your career?
01:47:30
>> Tail end. Yeah. Yeah. Tail end. Yeah.
01:47:32
Tail end it is. Yeah.
01:47:33
>> What What do you do is he the right guy
01:47:35
for the job?
01:47:35
>> Um, look, I um he he's there right and
01:47:39
um and I think I I'll support him 100%.
01:47:43
you know, uh, he's got the job and, um,
01:47:45
and I think we'll see whether he's the
01:47:47
man or not, you know, that's that's yet
01:47:48
to be seen. Um I I I think and this is
01:47:52
kind of regurgitating old stuff, but the
01:47:55
the way that um in Foster the way all
01:47:57
that kind of came about and the way that
01:48:00
situation handled was I thought was
01:48:01
disgraceful
01:48:02
>> and as far away from you know what it
01:48:06
what it means to be like an all black
01:48:09
and in that you know that that whole all
01:48:11
black kind of thing.
01:48:12
>> Um you know I couldn't give a rat's ass
01:48:15
who was going to be the coach the
01:48:16
following year where you know there was
01:48:18
a world cup to go to. he was the coach.
01:48:20
Um, and I know that there were some, you
01:48:23
know, there's some people who very close
01:48:26
to this to that team and had a big part
01:48:28
of their success over the years that
01:48:30
went to the board and told them they
01:48:31
couldn't do it and they did it
01:48:33
>> and it was just, you know, um, I've
01:48:36
never wanted an all black team to win as
01:48:37
much as that bloody World Cup final.
01:48:41
>> A lot of people felt the same way.
01:48:42
>> Yeah. and team
01:48:44
>> I mean that that Irish semi-final I
01:48:46
think I've never been as proud
01:48:48
>> um of an all black team you know it was
01:48:50
amazing and and then that final and it
01:48:53
from for me it just would have been like
01:48:55
the greatest win ever you know just
01:48:57
given the build up everything that that
01:48:59
had happened
01:49:00
>> and I kind of knew that what had gone on
01:49:02
would have galvanized that group like
01:49:04
nothing else you know oh my god I wish
01:49:07
we had won that game oh that was um I
01:49:10
remember going out that morning and
01:49:11
watching it was a really good game As
01:49:12
far as finals go though, it's everything
01:49:14
you could. Is that the one where Sam
01:49:15
Kane was sent off?
01:49:17
>> Yeah.
01:49:17
>> Yeah, that was rough.
01:49:18
>> Um, you've got some um some hot takes,
01:49:21
some strong opinions. Have you did you
01:49:22
ever like look at Yeah. coaching or or
01:49:25
getting into administration like with
01:49:26
the NZ AU?
01:49:28
>> No.
01:49:28
>> No interest?
01:49:29
>> No. No. I kind of dabbled a little bit
01:49:31
with coaching. Um just just, you know,
01:49:33
bit of school, but it wasn't it was
01:49:34
never going to be my thing. Um I don't
01:49:37
know if I got the patience for it, but
01:49:39
um but no. What do you think um young
01:49:43
Kiwis are better off starting in league
01:49:44
or union right now?
01:49:46
>> Um well, that's a good question. Uh I I
01:49:49
think there's skills that you that
01:49:50
develop in both games that um that that
01:49:53
will, you know, uh that cross over for
01:49:56
sure.
01:49:57
>> Um
01:49:58
yeah, I don't know. I think rub rub your
01:50:02
league kind of obviously gives you great
01:50:04
tackle technique and and and stuff like
01:50:06
that. So maybe maybe that's a good way
01:50:08
to start. Um but but yeah, no there's
01:50:11
there's some real crossover. I don't
01:50:13
think it really matters.
01:50:14
>> Yeah. And when you're um dealing with
01:50:16
young players now or up and cominging
01:50:17
players, how important are things like
01:50:18
social media, personal brand um and
01:50:21
offfield behavior.
01:50:23
>> Um well, it's becoming more and more
01:50:25
important. You know, the whole social
01:50:27
media things, you know, like um
01:50:29
>> does is that a good thing? Like if
01:50:30
you're a young player and you've got say
01:50:31
20,000 followers on Instagram, does that
01:50:33
sort of work in your favor or is that
01:50:35
relevant?
01:50:36
>> I think it's how you handle it, you
01:50:37
know. Um, and yeah, a lot of them use it
01:50:40
as just some kind of form of
01:50:42
communication with their mates and and
01:50:43
that's all good. Other guys are trying
01:50:45
to commercialize it and you know, if
01:50:47
they're going down that track, well, it
01:50:48
needs to be done properly, you know. Uh,
01:50:50
so we try to help them with, you know,
01:50:51
some advice around all that, bringing
01:50:53
people in to kind of help them and get
01:50:54
them going. Um, but I think as long as
01:50:56
they're not getting too kind of caught
01:50:58
up in it is is kind of important to,
01:51:00
especially in the in the in the early
01:51:01
stages, you know. Um, and one thing that
01:51:04
we do know, this is such a small market
01:51:06
here in New Zealand, you know, from a
01:51:08
commercial kind of point of view. Um,
01:51:12
you we tell the guys, hey, um, you're
01:51:14
going to make the most money being a
01:51:16
decent rubby player, you know, rather
01:51:18
than an ambassador for, um, you know,
01:51:20
some pet food or whatever, links or
01:51:22
power aid or
01:51:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a nice
01:51:24
it's a nice thing to have, but but at
01:51:26
the end of the day, um if you're if
01:51:28
you're a decent rugby player, if you're
01:51:29
playing good footy, that's where you're
01:51:31
going to make the majority of your
01:51:32
money. So, you know, try not to get too
01:51:34
caught up in it all.
01:51:35
>> Well, if you look at someone like Richie
01:51:36
McCoy, like I I think he only set up a
01:51:38
Facebook after he retired.
01:51:40
>> Yeah. Well, that's right.
01:51:41
>> Didn't need the distraction. I don't
01:51:42
know why I'm asking you about that. I um
01:51:44
you're going through our DMs. I I sent
01:51:47
you a message the day before I had
01:51:48
Richie on the podcast saying, "Hey,
01:51:49
Posty, I've got your Ridgie coming on.
01:51:51
you you you can you share anything about
01:51:53
him? I think you replied to me about 2
01:51:54
years later.
01:51:57
>> Yes.
01:51:58
>> Yeah. Um yeah, before we close on that
01:52:01
chapter about the the age and stuff, is
01:52:02
there anything that we've overlooked?
01:52:04
Anything that I should have asked that I
01:52:05
haven't?
01:52:06
>> Uh no, I don't think so. No, I mean it's
01:52:09
like I really enjoy it and um you know,
01:52:12
I don't think it's probably what people
01:52:13
expect it would be. Um at the end of the
01:52:16
day, you're dealing with young guys and
01:52:18
and girls now. um and you know all the
01:52:22
issues that that kind of brings and you
01:52:25
know larger kind of extended family and
01:52:28
and all that kind of stuff and you know
01:52:30
sometimes there's big drama and um but
01:52:32
but yeah look at the end of the day
01:52:34
we're there to kind of guide them
01:52:35
through as much as we can and and and
01:52:37
play a part um that uh that hopefully
01:52:41
you know uh brings them to an end of
01:52:43
career where they can look back and go
01:52:44
well I made the most of it.
01:52:45
>> Yeah. without naming names, what's the
01:52:47
um biggest sum of money that's been on
01:52:49
the table for one transaction?
01:52:51
>> Um oh
01:52:54
um
01:52:55
yeah, I I think the you know rugy's
01:52:58
rugby is not
01:53:00
NFL or you know NBA or anything like
01:53:03
that. Uh
01:53:04
>> no Stephen Adams is anything. It's like
01:53:07
wow.
01:53:07
>> No. Yeah. Wasman Klein. Um but um you
01:53:12
know I hey if if they're doing well then
01:53:15
might be a couple of couple of mil you
01:53:17
know a year
01:53:17
>> a season.
01:53:18
>> Yeah. Wow.
01:53:20
>> So you're born in um New Plymouth 1969
01:53:24
summer of 69 just like the song. So
01:53:26
you're 56 now. How how do you feel about
01:53:28
this chapter of your life?
01:53:30
>> Um yeah pretty good. I'm um I'm living
01:53:32
down the Hawks Bay these days. Been down
01:53:34
there for a while now. We built a house
01:53:35
about 3 years ago and uh so I spend the
01:53:38
majority of my time down there and I'm
01:53:40
able to kind of do my work from down
01:53:42
there. Um which is which is great. Um
01:53:46
I'm a pretty keen fly fisherman so I get
01:53:48
down on the old Tukie Tuk River whenever
01:53:50
I can and kind of try and haul a trout
01:53:52
out of there now and again. Um so yeah,
01:53:54
no life's life's pretty good. Just kind
01:53:56
of tracking along. Um, and look, no
01:53:59
plans to stop doing what I'm doing with
01:54:01
with the, uh, with the WMAN stuff, you
01:54:03
know, still really enjoying that. Um,
01:54:05
you want to help these younger guys,
01:54:06
especially kind of, um, you know,
01:54:08
navigate their way through and, uh, so
01:54:10
that's cool. Looking forward to kind of
01:54:12
just, yeah, carrying on with what we're
01:54:14
doing really.
01:54:14
>> What What is a perfect day for you these
01:54:16
days?
01:54:18
Um
01:54:20
probably uh well you know a lot of my
01:54:22
stuff uh you know it might be uh you
01:54:26
know doing some of the the the domestic
01:54:28
stuff early in the morning and then you
01:54:30
know the Japanese stuff will kind of
01:54:31
kick in later in the afternoon get that
01:54:33
stuff sorted out. Um and then late
01:54:35
afternoon it might be shoot down to the
01:54:36
river and try and catch trout or uh take
01:54:39
the dog for a walk or um you know maybe
01:54:41
even around a golf. So, um, yeah, trying
01:54:44
to mix it up, you know. Um, life's Yeah,
01:54:47
life life's pretty good down there.
01:54:48
>> Fantastic. Yeah, you got a new knee as
01:54:50
well. So,
01:54:50
>> new knee. Yeah, it's a bad time to be a
01:54:53
golf course in the Hawks Bay region.
01:54:55
>> Not quite, but we're heading there.
01:54:57
>> What when you when you're out on the uh
01:54:59
Tokyo River trout fishing? Are you Are
01:55:01
you Is it something you do solo like to
01:55:03
clear your head or are you usually with
01:55:05
mates or
01:55:05
>> Um, often by myself. Yeah.
01:55:08
>> Yeah. And um but but I have got a you
01:55:11
know a couple of mates that are that are
01:55:12
pretty keen on it as well. We you know
01:55:14
go off now again. Um and a man of mine
01:55:17
got me into it after when I came to the
01:55:19
end of my career. He was like well you
01:55:21
need a hobby you know you need something
01:55:22
to do
01:55:23
>> and I didn't realize that he was you
01:55:25
kind of like a pretty keen fly fisherman
01:55:27
himself. I said always been kind of keen
01:55:28
on you have a look at that fly fishing.
01:55:30
His eyes lit up and he said well pack
01:55:31
your bags were off on Wednesday and and
01:55:33
we ended up um tripping all over the
01:55:35
place. Uh we were down to Patagonia and
01:55:37
fish down there and you know in
01:55:39
Argentina and um and all over the place.
01:55:41
It's it's been fantastic actually. It's
01:55:43
just a really nice kind of get away from
01:55:45
everything and uh you know just
01:55:47
concentrate on um on on trying to catch
01:55:49
a catch a fish. It's been a real um yeah
01:55:53
real find actually. It's it's great.
01:55:55
>> Are you good?
01:55:56
>> Uh oh. Not as good as a guy.
01:56:00
>> Oh yeah, I'm pretty good. I can uh I can
01:56:03
usually find one somewhere.
01:56:04
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:56:05
>> Yeah.
01:56:06
>> Um, one thing I like to ask um, most of
01:56:08
my guests about is their their mental
01:56:10
health, especially like guys our age in
01:56:12
our 50s. How's How's yours been?
01:56:14
>> Yeah, I think pretty good. Yeah, I think
01:56:16
I'm Yeah, I think um Yeah, I know. I'm
01:56:18
I'm kind of happy with my lot.
01:56:20
>> Um, yeah, kind of Yeah, there's I um
01:56:23
just kind of getting on with things
01:56:25
really, you know. Um,
01:56:27
>> yeah. Uh, I don't know what else to
01:56:30
really say. Yeah, things things are
01:56:31
things are good and I'm I'm good. Um but
01:56:35
yeah, no one gets to the position of
01:56:36
being in their their 50s without being
01:56:37
kicked in the ass a couple of times.
01:56:39
What's the Yeah. biggest adversity
01:56:40
you've gone through?
01:56:42
>> Um oh well, you know, um parents passing
01:56:46
away, my mother passed away. Um that's
01:56:50
that's going back about 15 16 way too
01:56:52
young. She was, you know, she was only
01:56:53
62, I think.
01:56:54
>> Oh [ __ ]
01:56:55
>> So that was that was obviously pretty
01:56:57
tough. Um and you know um I my kids were
01:57:01
still pretty young. So, it's just that
01:57:02
sadness of knowing that she wasn't going
01:57:05
to be there to kind of see them grow up
01:57:07
and um so yeah, uh you know, a couple of
01:57:11
things like that. Um yeah, I mean, you
01:57:14
get kicks in the ass along the way. It's
01:57:16
how you bounce out of them. I guess
01:57:17
that's that's what counts.
01:57:19
>> Yeah, it's true. I had a um a love
01:57:21
incredible woman sitting in the chair
01:57:22
that you're seeing yesterday called Dr.
01:57:24
Alia Bojalova. She was a SAS
01:57:26
psychologist here in New Zealand.
01:57:27
>> Sure. It should be interesting. She
01:57:28
wrote a book called The Resilience
01:57:29
Toolkit, and she talks about not um
01:57:31
bouncing back, but bouncing forward from
01:57:33
these things. Okay.
01:57:34
>> So, not just getting back to where you
01:57:36
were, but like ending up in a better
01:57:37
position.
01:57:38
>> Yeah. Nice.
01:57:38
>> Um Yeah. Yeah. Like life throws [ __ ]
01:57:41
your way and you just have to you have
01:57:43
to deal with it.
01:57:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think so. And I
01:57:45
mean, you know, I mean, it's a roller
01:57:47
coaster, isn't it? You know, you have
01:57:48
good stuff and it same in this job that
01:57:50
we're doing. You know, there's good
01:57:51
stuff and there's bad stuff, you know.
01:57:53
Are you good at the um vulnerability
01:57:55
piece with your close mates or do you do
01:57:57
you sort of process things internally on
01:57:59
the banks of the river or
01:58:02
Yeah. Yeah. I'm probably pretty old
01:58:05
school, I'd imagine. I think you'd
01:58:07
probably put me in that category. Um but
01:58:10
I'm I'm the same. And I know it's I know
01:58:11
it's not not something to be proud of.
01:58:13
Like I know I should be better at having
01:58:14
these tough conversations, but I'm I'm
01:58:16
[ __ ] at it. It's hard. The time never
01:58:18
seems right.
01:58:19
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree. I've,
01:58:22
you know, I've got good mates and um
01:58:24
yeah, I'm happy to kind of share stuff
01:58:26
with with um with with most of them, I
01:58:29
guess.
01:58:30
>> Um but a lot of the time it's kind of in
01:58:32
joke kind of form or whatever, too. You
01:58:34
know, we kind of take the piss out of
01:58:35
each other like guys do. And um but uh
01:58:38
yeah, I I' I'd say to sum it up, I'm I'm
01:58:40
pretty old school when it comes to all
01:58:42
that. Um yeah, you mentioned at the
01:58:44
beginning um you've got a lunch um
01:58:47
tomorrow with um some of your old rugby
01:58:48
teammates, but are you still in touch
01:58:50
with um your band mates and the camel
01:58:52
toes?
01:58:53
>> Oh, I'm glad you brought that up.
01:58:56
>> So, this is a like a band with um Jeff
01:58:58
Ross, founder of 42 Below, Dion Nash,
01:59:01
former New Zealand cricket captain. Who
01:59:03
else is in the band?
01:59:03
>> Uh so, Nick Ross uh from the financial
01:59:07
um industry. Uh he was the he's well the
01:59:11
lead singer. Uh and and luckily U Hamish
01:59:14
G from the Fearless uh who Awesome.
01:59:16
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So having having
01:59:18
Hamish kind of just helped to bring
01:59:20
everything together.
01:59:21
>> He's the drummer, right?
01:59:22
>> He was a drummer, but in our band he's
01:59:24
he was bass,
01:59:25
>> right?
01:59:26
>> Yeah. So So basically,
01:59:27
>> what was your role in the band?
01:59:28
>> I was a drummer, right?
01:59:29
>> I was a drummer. Yeah. So basically, you
01:59:31
got a group
01:59:31
>> if you playing drums in front of the
01:59:32
drummer from the feelers.
01:59:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. But to to uh so we we we
01:59:38
came up with this concept and then we
01:59:39
had this span and it was a bit of you
01:59:41
know bit of we thought okay well let's
01:59:42
kind of take it kind of seriously.
01:59:45
Should we do something? So so we we
01:59:47
bought um we bought a uh was it wasn't
01:59:50
Hish but another musician in and we
01:59:52
basically rope learned these two songs
01:59:54
to play at a friend's 40th birthday.
01:59:57
And um so we we we played it this
02:00:00
birthday after about 6 weeks of rope
02:00:03
learning these two songs. I'd never
02:00:04
played I've never had a drum lesson in
02:00:06
my life and these guys could only you
02:00:07
know can manage a few chords whatever
02:00:09
but anyway we rope learned these two
02:00:11
songs and it was a freaking disaster
02:00:14
like absolute disaster. We had this guy
02:00:16
another friend we brought in as our
02:00:18
manager. He reckoned it was like listen
02:00:20
to four or five BS all playing different
02:00:22
different songs at the at the same time.
02:00:25
So that was we didn't get off to a good
02:00:26
start, but we we kind of kept at it and
02:00:29
then um I I'll show you the footage at
02:00:31
some stage, but uh Mike Chan had
02:00:33
organized for a um 50 years since the
02:00:37
Beatles played at the Oakland Town Hall
02:00:39
concert.
02:00:39
>> Wow.
02:00:40
>> And he asked um he said to uh to Jeff um
02:00:43
Jeff, you got a band you want to you
02:00:45
know you guys want to play at this at
02:00:47
this thing? You know, you get two songs
02:00:49
and uh Jeff's like, "Oh yeah, yeah,
02:00:50
sure." So he came back and told us, "You
02:00:52
guys want to do were like, "No, he's
02:00:54
crazy." But anyway, he kind of talked us
02:00:57
into it. So, we bought Hish in and we
02:00:59
basically rope learned these two fetal
02:01:02
songs, Hey Jude, I can't remember what
02:01:03
the other one was. And we were the
02:01:05
opening act. And it was packed. It was a
02:01:08
packed out Oakland Town Hall. And it is
02:01:11
the most terrifying thing I've ever
02:01:13
done. It was It was I I thought kind of
02:01:16
being the drummer I'd be at the back and
02:01:17
that would be it. But we got in there
02:01:19
for a rehearsal and they the drums were
02:01:21
up on this kind of on this platform up
02:01:23
there just looking straight down at the
02:01:25
crowd. It was terrifying. Absolutely.
02:01:27
But we got away with it. It was the
02:01:28
biggest fraud ever. It's amazing. It's
02:01:31
funny that you say it's the most
02:01:32
terrified you've ever been. You know, I
02:01:34
suppose it's what you know, you're
02:01:36
comfortable with what you know, but for
02:01:37
most people like running out onto like
02:01:39
Wembley in front of 100,000 people for a
02:01:41
contact sport would be, you know, way
02:01:44
more terrifying than that.
02:01:44
>> Oh, it was it was so we were so out of
02:01:46
our comfort zones. And the funny thing
02:01:48
is like if you know if these guys those
02:01:50
guys listen to this podcast they'll be
02:01:52
like what do you mean it was a fraud you
02:01:53
know as far as we're awesome but um it
02:01:57
>> but I but I think you know with the
02:01:59
rugby side of it um you know you're
02:02:01
nervous and then the whistle blows and
02:02:03
you're just into another game of rugby
02:02:05
um
02:02:05
>> this you know what you got to do.
02:02:07
>> Yeah, this was completely different. It
02:02:09
was just like bloody you know what are
02:02:10
we doing here? But uh we got away with
02:02:12
it.
02:02:12
>> So is there a reunion on the cards at
02:02:14
any time? Uh, no, no. We've we've um
02:02:17
we've we've been um we've been hiatus
02:02:20
for for quite a while now and um I don't
02:02:23
think there's any I don't think we could
02:02:24
reach those kind of heights again. So,
02:02:26
um we kind of s just sit back and um
02:02:29
>> just uh live live with that memory.
02:02:32
>> And and you're you're a dad. You've got
02:02:34
like two um adult uh daughters now. Um
02:02:38
so, not that I want to apply any
02:02:40
pressure to anyone, but um I suppose
02:02:41
like grandkids on the on the cards in
02:02:43
the future. Oh, in the future, I don't
02:02:45
think anytime soon. Thank you very much.
02:02:47
But, uh,
02:02:48
>> how old are the girls now? So, there's
02:02:50
Toby and Dolly,
02:02:51
>> eh?
02:02:51
>> Yep. Yep. So, Gab Gabriel's should be 24
02:02:54
next next year. Um, Toby's just turned
02:02:56
23.
02:02:57
>> Yeah.
02:02:58
>> Um, so, um, yeah. No, they're great.
02:03:01
Yeah, they're doing great. Cuz one thing
02:03:03
I one thing I remember, I was thinking
02:03:04
about this on my run this morning. I
02:03:05
don't know if you'll remember this at
02:03:06
all, but um I don't think you were even
02:03:08
at home, but I was around having a
02:03:10
meeting with your with your wife and the
02:03:11
girls were there. They would have been
02:03:12
maybe primary school age. And there was
02:03:14
like a like a playhouse or a doll's
02:03:16
house or sleepout sort of thing at the
02:03:17
back of the house. And they took the
02:03:19
girls took me in there to show me
02:03:20
something. There was like a like a I
02:03:22
don't know like a like a a statement of
02:03:24
intent or a letter or something on the
02:03:26
wall from you.
02:03:27
>> All right.
02:03:27
>> Can you remember what they It was
02:03:28
something like um yeah, be true to
02:03:30
yourself. Don't forget where you came
02:03:31
from or
02:03:32
>> Yeah.
02:03:33
>> or something like that. Did you do you
02:03:34
does this ring any bells? Do you know
02:03:35
what I'm talking about? Uh
02:03:37
>> it was I remember reading it at the time
02:03:39
and it's stuck with me for like 15 years
02:03:41
or however many years it's been. It was
02:03:43
like a really wonderful um note whatever
02:03:45
it was.
02:03:46
>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Car.
02:03:49
>> Yeah. It was good girls.
02:03:52
>> Um and you seem to you seem to have a
02:03:54
good relationship with them. I was just
02:03:55
like going through your social media for
02:03:56
this. Um it seems like your love
02:03:58
language with with them is light
02:03:59
roasting.
02:04:00
>> Yeah. There's um I've got one here. Uh
02:04:04
um there's Yeah. a joke with your older
02:04:07
daughter on Instagram about her um never
02:04:10
picking up wet towels and having
02:04:11
unauthorized tattoos
02:04:14
>> and uh for Toby. Don't ever stop being
02:04:15
you. Except for the bikini Instagram
02:04:17
photos, you can stop doing them.
02:04:20
>> It's really cool. It's a wonderful
02:04:21
relationship.
02:04:22
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, they're um they're
02:04:24
great. Um and they're off doing their
02:04:27
thing, which is which is cool at the end
02:04:28
of the day. That's that's what you want.
02:04:29
You want them to be happy and and off
02:04:31
doing their thing. And um and they are.
02:04:33
>> Yeah. You proud of them?
02:04:34
>> Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Absolutely.
02:04:37
>> They proud of you.
02:04:38
>> I hope so. Yeah, I think they are. Yeah,
02:04:40
I think they are. And um you know, now
02:04:42
and again someone will kind of like, oh,
02:04:44
remember your dad or whatever and they
02:04:45
they think that's pretty cool.
02:04:47
>> Um so yeah. Yeah, I think they are.
02:04:50
>> Oh yeah, there was another one. It was
02:04:52
like you trout fishing and one of your
02:04:53
daughters with you and you made a joke
02:04:55
about her just using you for a photo
02:04:56
shoot or something.
02:04:57
>> Yeah, that's Toby. Yeah, she's missed
02:04:59
social media.
02:05:00
>> Yeah. Yeah, she is. Yeah, her social
02:05:02
media game's a lot better than you was
02:05:04
to be. Yeah, much bigger. Yeah.
02:05:05
>> Um, what are you still working on as a
02:05:07
man?
02:05:10
>> Um, that's a that's a big question.
02:05:13
>> Yeah. And with some deep ones.
02:05:14
>> Yeah. Bloody hell. Um, oh, look, I I I I
02:05:18
I think you never you never stop
02:05:20
learning, right? And um, you know, I'm
02:05:22
just trying to be um, you know, a good
02:05:24
father and and uh, and a good husband
02:05:27
and um, and a good friend, you know. I
02:05:29
think they're they're all the most
02:05:31
important things
02:05:33
>> you you can be, you know. Um, like I
02:05:35
said, you know, I'm pretty happy with uh
02:05:37
where things are at, you know, and and
02:05:39
and what I've done and and, you know,
02:05:41
but it's not the end of the road.
02:05:42
there's plenty plenty out there to to
02:05:45
try and you know try and achieve and and
02:05:47
uh and I think you know one thing with
02:05:49
this whole wasman even though you know
02:05:51
we don't own the company anymore you
02:05:53
still want it to be a success and you
02:05:54
still want to be out there competing and
02:05:56
you know um and so that doesn't leave
02:05:58
you so yeah look just just continuing to
02:06:01
to you know to do things and do them
02:06:03
well.
02:06:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I love that. I I would
02:06:06
have um I would have thought I'd be
02:06:07
retired by now. Like, you know, in my
02:06:10
20s or 30s, like 50 was sort of the goal
02:06:12
age. Now I'm 52. It's like I Yeah. I I I
02:06:15
don't want to want to want a job that I
02:06:17
want to retire from. I want to keep
02:06:19
doing something. You need that reason to
02:06:21
get out of bed.
02:06:22
>> Oh, I think as you get older, you know,
02:06:23
you realize you just got to keep, you
02:06:25
know, it's important to kind of just
02:06:27
keep moving. Yeah. And and that's, you
02:06:29
know, your body and your mind. And
02:06:31
>> um you know, my my father-in-law, he's a
02:06:34
great example. Well, you know, he he
02:06:35
turned 81 uh not that long ago and and
02:06:38
he still plays tennis on Fridays with
02:06:40
his mates and he still gets out and
02:06:41
plays cricket and sorry, not cricket,
02:06:44
tennis, and you know, he's just been to
02:06:46
Australia to um to an old cricketing,
02:06:49
you know, lunchon with a group of old
02:06:51
mates and and and you know, I think
02:06:54
that's awesome. You know, once you stop
02:06:55
doing all that kind of stuff, you're in
02:06:57
trouble, I reckon.
02:06:57
>> Yeah. Is is it actually tennis or is he
02:06:59
is it pickle ball?
02:07:01
>> Uh no, no, no, he's tennis. us. That's
02:07:04
good going.
02:07:04
>> Yeah. I I don't think it'd be the most
02:07:06
attractive game to watch.
02:07:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if
02:07:12
there's a lot of movement, but uh you
02:07:13
know, he's out there doing it, though,
02:07:14
and that's that's important.
02:07:16
>> Have you found um as you get into this
02:07:18
chapter of your life, you've got more
02:07:20
emotional?
02:07:21
>> Um I'm probably projecting here. Like I
02:07:24
you know, I went through my 20s, 30s,
02:07:26
even most of my 40s without crying. And
02:07:28
I don't know, just the last like decade
02:07:30
or so.
02:07:31
>> Um I'll cry at anything at the top of
02:07:33
the hat. Usually happy tears.
02:07:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, look, I I I
02:07:36
think there's, you know, there's
02:07:37
obviously things that set you off, you
02:07:39
know. Um Gabriel, she's up in London,
02:07:42
you know, she she she comes home like
02:07:44
she goes back. It's, you know, that will
02:07:47
set me off. Um you know, and it's funny
02:07:50
like thinking about mom or something
02:07:52
like that. You know, there's things that
02:07:53
kind of I guess set you off, but um but
02:07:56
yeah, not that often, I guess.
02:07:58
>> Oh, it's good. It shows you care, right?
02:08:00
>> It shows what they mean to you.
02:08:02
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally.
02:08:03
>> Yeah. Like the fact you lost your mom 15
02:08:04
years ago and you can still think about
02:08:05
her and it sets you off. I think that's
02:08:07
just the the you know, the impact of the
02:08:09
relationship.
02:08:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally.
02:08:11
>> Um do you have any regrets?
02:08:13
>> Um no, I don't. you know, I I um I was
02:08:17
thinking about that, you know, before he
02:08:18
came in because I thought there'd
02:08:19
probably be a question and and um uh
02:08:21
because everything I've done has le led
02:08:23
me to where I am today. Um if anything
02:08:26
had been different, well, you know, I
02:08:28
wouldn't be doing sitting here with you
02:08:31
now. I wouldn't be, you know, um
02:08:34
wouldn't have flown up from the Hawks
02:08:35
Bay. I mean, it's amazing where life
02:08:37
takes you really. Only not in a million
02:08:40
years do I ever think that I'd be living
02:08:41
in bloody rural Hawks Bay. Um uh but but
02:08:45
there we go. And and it's the decisions
02:08:48
I guess I made early on that were tough
02:08:50
decisions like you know whether to to
02:08:52
leave New Zealand rugby and go play
02:08:54
rugby league. Um those kind of decisions
02:08:57
set me up for where where we are today
02:08:59
which is you know I'm pretty grateful
02:09:00
for really and I'm I'm kind of proud of
02:09:02
myself for making those decisions at
02:09:04
quite an early age.
02:09:05
>> Yeah. So how did you end up in a horse
02:09:06
bay? I uh I met well my my wife now um I
02:09:10
guess we're going back about 11 12 years
02:09:13
ago and uh she was from down in Havlock
02:09:16
living in Havlock um couple of kids at
02:09:18
school down there and and uh but a lot
02:09:20
of her work up in Oakland and uh so we
02:09:23
we got together and and so I started
02:09:25
kind of back and forth with her down
02:09:27
there and discovered that I that I love
02:09:29
the place and um yeah we uh we bought a
02:09:32
bit of land just outside of Havlock a
02:09:33
few years ago. built a house, got
02:09:35
married, I think about four years ago
02:09:37
now, and uh yeah, amazing.
02:09:40
>> She she's awesome. Um yeah, Belinda, she
02:09:42
used to be a a journalist on TV3. I'm
02:09:45
pretty sure she was at my first wedding.
02:09:47
>> Her and her not you, though, another
02:09:49
bloke.
02:09:50
>> Yeah. Well, that's right. It's, you
02:09:52
know, um yeah, second time around for us
02:09:54
for us both. And um but yeah, look,
02:09:56
amazing. and and um so you know with
02:09:59
that um a couple of um a couple of uh
02:10:03
stepdaughters uh Molly and Grace who are
02:10:05
awesome kids and uh lucky for me they've
02:10:07
got great parents so I get to be um you
02:10:10
know like a a really good friend and um
02:10:12
and are a couple of my best friends uh
02:10:14
and uh so yeah really really really
02:10:16
lucky and although you know surrounding
02:10:19
myself with uh a lot of females with I
02:10:22
was going to say like massive female
02:10:24
energy so there there's um your two
02:10:26
adult daughters from your first marriage
02:10:27
and now now another two um in this
02:10:30
blended scenario.
02:10:31
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:10:31
>> Um yeah. Awesome though. E lucky lucky
02:10:34
man.
02:10:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's cool and
02:10:36
and you know, they're all doing well and
02:10:38
uh um yeah, you know, really looking
02:10:40
forward to seeing what you know what how
02:10:42
how they all kind of go over the next
02:10:43
few years and and what's what's in front
02:10:46
of them. But uh yeah, you know, it's
02:10:47
it's it's great living down there and um
02:10:50
you know, back and forth to to walk
02:10:52
still a fair bit and uh and and and you
02:10:55
know, uh Belinda stuff kind of works in
02:10:56
with what I'm doing. So, so you know, we
02:10:59
get to travel a fair bit together and
02:11:00
no, it's great.
02:11:03
>> Would you say you've been lucky in love
02:11:04
or unlucky in in love?
02:11:06
>> Um well, well, I got to say lucky, I
02:11:09
guess. Um, you know, I mean, uh, going
02:11:12
through separations and things, you
02:11:14
know, people have been in that. I've
02:11:16
>> been there, bro. Yeah. So, I mean, it's
02:11:18
not a fun time as people have been in
02:11:20
that, uh, situation. Um, know, but, you
02:11:23
know, I guess on the other side of that
02:11:25
is you don't know what's down the track
02:11:27
and, um, lucky enough for me, I I found
02:11:29
my best mate and, um, and we're doing
02:11:32
great.
02:11:33
>> Fantastic. You seem really happy.
02:11:34
>> Yeah. No, for sure.
02:11:35
>> And the, um, the two younger kids, what
02:11:38
do they call you? Just Craig.
02:11:40
>> Yeah, Craig. Craigy. Yeah.
02:11:43
>> Yeah. Um Yeah, just depending. But um
02:11:46
Yeah. Yeah. I'm just I'm just Craig or
02:11:48
Craigy. Yeah.
02:11:49
>> Yeah. Sh. Is it Is it still customary
02:11:51
for um the dad to pay for daughter's
02:11:54
weddings?
02:11:54
>> Bloody well. Better be.
02:11:58
>> You've got an expensive couple of
02:11:59
decades coming up potentially.
02:12:01
>> I know that. But uh but yeah, at least
02:12:03
I'll have a decent seat anyway.
02:12:05
>> Yeah. Yeah. Everything's worked out
02:12:06
pretty good. And I wonder if it's um if
02:12:08
it's you made the right decisions or
02:12:11
so far so good. Late 50s. Um yeah, I
02:12:14
wonder if it's a case of you making the
02:12:16
right decisions or just making the
02:12:17
decision and then just working your ass
02:12:19
off to make sure they were the right
02:12:20
decisions.
02:12:20
>> Yeah, I think so. I think there's
02:12:22
definitely a big element of that, you
02:12:24
know, and like I'm a big believer of,
02:12:26
you know, um ideas manifesting as as
02:12:30
well, you know, and and um
02:12:32
>> Yeah, you are.
02:12:33
>> Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yeah. I I think you
02:12:36
know I look back at um like the all the
02:12:38
rugby stuff like the All Blacks for
02:12:40
instance and and this might sound
02:12:42
arrogant because you know I was never
02:12:44
like a great All black or anything like
02:12:45
that but I always kind of in my mind I
02:12:48
always kind of knew I was going to be an
02:12:49
all um I just had this thing in my
02:12:53
>> selfbelief.
02:12:54
>> Yeah. In a funny way because I I don't
02:12:56
think I project that. Um, and I' I'd
02:12:59
hate to think I, you know, I'd like to
02:13:02
think I'm a pretty humble kind of guy,
02:13:03
but there was always this kind of belief
02:13:04
that this is this is what you're going
02:13:06
to do. Um, and I think that made my
02:13:08
other decisions quite easy, you know,
02:13:10
kind of having done that going, okay,
02:13:12
well, I've done that and then I'm going
02:13:13
to go off and do something else. So, um,
02:13:15
so no, definitely I think I think um,
02:13:18
you know, positive thought man manifests
02:13:20
positive outcomes for sure.
02:13:23
>> What are you most afraid of?
02:13:26
Um,
02:13:29
oh gee, I don't know. Um,
02:13:31
I guess lo losing losing things, you
02:13:34
know,
02:13:37
losing it all.
02:13:40
And I'm not talking about, you know, I
02:13:42
mean, life life throws up all sorts of
02:13:45
[ __ ] doesn't it? So, um, you know, this
02:13:49
if I can bet bat all that bad stuff away
02:13:51
as long as I can, you know,
02:13:53
>> not losing everything like the mate you
02:13:54
talked about earlier at the casino.
02:13:56
>> Wow. Who knows? But
02:13:58
>> yeah,
02:13:58
>> but yeah. Um,
02:14:00
what three words would you like family
02:14:02
and friends to describe you? Say it's
02:14:06
your funeral and uh you're in the box,
02:14:09
your daughters are there. What three
02:14:11
words would you like them to say about
02:14:12
you? Um, oh, I'd like to, you know,
02:14:15
think that, you know, I'd like to think
02:14:17
that I'd be seen as, you know,
02:14:19
reasonably kind of humble kind of guy
02:14:21
and and um pretty, you know, pretty
02:14:23
downed, you know, pretty straightforward
02:14:25
with things. You know, I'm kind of I'm a
02:14:27
realist, I think, kind of pragmatic
02:14:29
about a lot of things. Um, you know,
02:14:32
family's everything to me. Um, and
02:14:36
friends are, you know, really important
02:14:38
and, uh, and just being a good person. I
02:14:40
think at the end of the day, um, if if
02:14:43
people kind of, you know, think that
02:14:45
I've, you know, he was a good bugger,
02:14:46
well, I'm happy with that. At the end of
02:14:48
the day, what else is there really?
02:14:50
>> Yeah, you know,
02:14:50
>> it's everything, eh?
02:14:51
>> Yeah,
02:14:52
>> that's way more than three, but I think
02:14:54
that's a great collection of words.
02:14:56
>> Yeah. Oh, sorry about that.
02:14:57
>> Yeah. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's that's
02:14:59
great. And, um, I think you definitely
02:15:00
tick all those boxes like that that note
02:15:02
I'm talking about before that was in the
02:15:04
Yeah. The girls playhouse at home. Um,
02:15:06
that definitely sums it up, I think.
02:15:09
>> Yeah. I wish I had a clearer memory of
02:15:11
exactly what it said.
02:15:12
>> It just I just remember I'd never seen
02:15:14
anything like that before and I thought
02:15:15
it was just a really cool thing and I
02:15:16
wondered if it came from one of your one
02:15:18
of your team environments or something
02:15:20
like that. But it was it was really
02:15:21
really cool.
02:15:22
>> Yeah. Particularly that your daughters
02:15:24
every time they went into this play area
02:15:26
this play space they had they'd see this
02:15:27
you know message from their dad.
02:15:29
>> Yeah. So like an instruction manual for
02:15:31
life.
02:15:32
>> This has been a great chat.
02:15:33
>> Yeah. Well thanks mate. It's nice being
02:15:35
here. Yeah. Kind of reminiscing.
02:15:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How was the
02:15:40
reminiscing piece for you?
02:15:41
>> Uh yeah, I mean like it's it's it's fun
02:15:43
to kind of kind of go over old old
02:15:46
experiences, I guess, you know, and uh
02:15:50
um yeah, and and and most of it's been
02:15:52
pretty positive, you know, having been
02:15:54
I've been lucky, I guess, in in that
02:15:56
respect. Um I I guess um I've been lucky
02:16:01
to be in extraordinary
02:16:04
um positions, you know, throughout my
02:16:07
life. Um, and I'm, you know, really
02:16:09
thankful for that to, uh, to experience
02:16:12
all sorts of, you know, different
02:16:14
things. Um, which is, which is, you
02:16:16
know, for me pretty cool.
02:16:19
>> Can't think of a better place to end it.
02:16:21
Posty Craig, thank you so much, mate.
02:16:24
Been nice being here.
02:16:25
>> Yeah. Cheers.