00:00:00
Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New
00:00:06
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:08
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
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hole in one in to
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Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:00:21
here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:00:24
investments. Get in here, Finn.
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Maximize. Generate. putting performance
00:00:29
first.
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>> Fanobotica, the Croatian sensation,
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welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thanks, Tom. Glad to be here.
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>> Do you um you asked me just before we
00:00:44
started recording um what the what the
00:00:46
ground rules were for language on the
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podcast, which What do you want to say
00:00:50
exactly?
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>> Well, um sometimes I put my foot in my
00:00:54
mouth and and say things I shouldn't
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say. So, um, now it doesn't matter, does
00:00:58
it? So,
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>> no, it sure doesn't. So, the Croatian
00:01:02
sensation, that's one of your nicknames.
00:01:04
Any other nicknames? Any other good?
00:01:05
>> I didn't know that was one, actually, to
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be fair. No. Um, bots, skinny.
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>> Um, black. Oh, no. I can't say that.
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>> You can. I can't.
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>> Yeah, I black ass, I suppose.
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>> Um, the Croatian sensation, not a
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nickname. I thought that was your
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nickname in um, Wigan. Um, no. No. I
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don't know where that came from.
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>> You never heard that before.
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>> No.
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>> All right. It's a good one though. It
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makes you sound like a
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>> Maybe I was. I don't know.
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>> So, um, Fredo Bodica, I I've done some
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facteing. Let's see if I've got this
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right. So, you played in four black
00:01:38
jerseys. The All Blacks, um, the Kiwis,
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the Moldi, and the Sevens.
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>> Yep.
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>> Yep. Um, you also played rugby for
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Croatia.
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>> Yes, I did.
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>> What else? Um, coached Fiji?
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Nope.
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>> Didn't you do some coaching for Fiji for
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the 2015 World Cup?
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>> No. No. Oh. Oh, yeah. I went actually I
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came
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>> actually Yeah, I forgot about it.
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>> I came in I came in as a guest for a
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guest appearance with the help with the
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backs and some kicking.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Um but yeah, I forgot but that was only
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a you know a one a one day wonder,
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>> right? Um an incredible career too. 18
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year 18 year career. Yeah, it's uh the
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body has felt that you know I've been
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through a few operations after since I
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finished and
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>> and that but yeah it was a it was either
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that mate or go to work and so I was
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trying to prolong the go to work as much
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as long as I could. So at the detriment
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of my body. Yeah, I want to get into all
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of that because um I I can't imagine
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that transition part's easy like going
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from being, you know, such a such a a
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player um and then having to like you
00:02:51
return to like normal life. But we we'll
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get into that later because it's got to
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be a huge a huge adjustment piece. Um
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but yeah, what are you doing now? You're
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a real estate agent.
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>> Real estate agent. Yep. For Bailey's up
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in Odia. Yep. So uh um start with with
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the Odia branch on uh on Monday. So
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looking forward to that. I live up in
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Gulf Harour, so the office is nice and
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handy.
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>> You still get um recognized quite a bit
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or you when people see your name on real
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estate signs, they get they get a little
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bit excited.
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>> The older generation, yeah, the younger
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ones go, "Who the hell is this for?"
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>> Is that Is that quite nice though, sort
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of being a little bit anonymous or
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>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't mind it at all.
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Doesn't bother me whatsoever, you know.
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Mhm.
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>> Um but yeah, I still get a lot of the
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older generation saying hello and and
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and
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funny funnily enough in uh up in Gulf
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Harour, there's about I don't know 20 or
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30 Wiganers who live there and they all
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know who I am. They used to come some of
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them used to be at my uh at the games
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when when they were kids and now they're
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adults.
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>> So yeah, so that was interesting.
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>> Yeah, cuz that's a that's a big part of
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your story. We'll get into that. So you
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played for the All Blacks, then you went
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to and played for Wigan for five years
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and you were like a legend over there.
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The Croatian sensation apparently first
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first player fastest player to score a
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thousand points.
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>> Yep. Yep.
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>> Yeah. So you're a big deal.
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>> Yeah, it was. Yeah, it's uh
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>> when I got to Wigan, it was um it was a
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team full of superstars. It was a team
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full of internationals. There was 12
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internationals in that team. So I had to
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sort of try and figure out how I can be
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different and try and make the team in
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the one spot that they didn't have an
00:04:36
international. So and that was on the
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wing. So um I figured out very quickly
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that I had to learn to kick better than
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I I was kicking.
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>> But you were one of the best in the
00:04:45
world right at kicking.
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>> I I was um but I wasn't when I arrived.
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I was um obviously second string in the
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abs because Foxy was a lot a heck of a
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lot better than I was goal kicking and
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tactically kicking. So um
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>> I didn't put as much time and effort in
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practicing because I was thought to
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myself, well man, I'm not going to beat
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Foxy, so
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>> why bother trying? You know, which is a
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bit of a negative
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>> defeist attitude.
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>> It was a defeist attitude. Definitely.
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Definitely. But um um I learned from
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that and and figured out that I didn't
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want to the same thing to happen again.
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So
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>> best I practice.
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>> Man, I'm so excited to have you here.
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There's like just from that answer you
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gave there like there's there's so much
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to um dig into around that. I've
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actually got um an old teammate of
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yours, Warren Gatlin, coming up for a
00:05:36
podcast in a couple of days. And I I
00:05:38
obviously I was prepping for this
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interview and I was prepping for Gats at
00:05:41
the same time. And there's parallels
00:05:43
with you two, like you you you spent
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your all black career in the shadows of
00:05:46
Grant Fox. He spent his all black career
00:05:49
in the shadows of Fitzy.
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>> Fits. Yeah.
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>> So you two were just
00:05:53
were always on the bench or or dirty
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duties.
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>> What's a dirty dirty?
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>> Um well, back in the day, we used to um
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have dirty duties. So they they're the
00:06:01
guys who aren't sitting on the bench or
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playing. And your job was to go out and
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see where all the bars were for after
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the game. It was a tough job, but we had
00:06:12
to go out and and someone had to do it.
00:06:14
So, and we also had um we also had to
00:06:17
sell some tickets for pocket money for
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the team. Um so, we'd go around trying
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to sell some of our um our allocated lot
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of tickets. So, which was tough work,
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man.
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>> Was that Was it tough work?
00:06:30
>> Well, it's tough work. If you had if you
00:06:32
hadn't sold them all um by the time the
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game started, you were out the front
00:06:38
before the game. finding anyone who was
00:06:41
looking for tickets. So,
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>> oh my god, this is so amateur. E, it's
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crazy,
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>> mate. It was it was crazy. Yeah. But
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those are the things we had to do to to
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get some extra money in the coffers for
00:06:51
for the boys, you know. So,
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>> why were you called dirty dirties? What
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What does that mean?
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>> I don't know. I don't know where it came
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from, mate. Just Well, because you're so
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low ranked, you're down by in the dirt,
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I suppose, cuz you're not in the team.
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You're not on the bench. So you might as
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well just go down in the dirt and do
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whatever you you have to do. And I
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suppose I know we were on a Saturday
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morning before the game or a Wednesday
00:07:17
on in the on the big tours, we um had to
00:07:20
get up and go and train and it was
00:07:23
normally a flogging cuz we'd had a
00:07:25
couple of beers the night before
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and we had to sweat that out. So So we
00:07:31
did. Yeah. So
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>> um
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how's your health? Well, you uh you were
00:07:36
telling me just before you had a stroke
00:07:38
last year, but you you pulled up to the
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Pod Lab Studios today and there's um
00:07:41
there's like a trades entrance and you
00:07:43
you were quite prepared to climb up
00:07:44
there. So, you're obviously still in
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good nick.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a health and
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safety issue. Actually, you need to put
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some signs up there, mate. I actually
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thought, [ __ ] what's wrong with these
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guys? They're cheap, man. They haven't
00:07:55
even got a ladder. I got to stand on the
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seat and then jump in the door. Like,
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>> yeah.
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>> Next one. Are you 60
00:08:02
>> 62?
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>> 62. Yeah. You're in good shape. How's
00:08:05
the body?
00:08:06
>> Um, apart from this the stroke I had,
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um, yeah, it's getting better. Getting
00:08:10
better. You know, I try to stay healthy
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and fit. Uh, but I suppose sometimes
00:08:15
there are certain underlying health
00:08:17
things that you don't know about and
00:08:19
they creep up on you if you're not
00:08:21
staying on top of it. So, and I thought
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I was on top of it. Um, but I missed
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something. So,
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>> was that terrifying?
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>> Um, it was to start with. Yep. Yep. But
00:08:32
um I've I've learned to
00:08:34
I mean look it it I lost a little bit of
00:08:36
vision in my peripheral but um other
00:08:39
than that um it's not too bad. Had a few
00:08:42
little operations on on the heart but
00:08:44
again nothing serious just in one day
00:08:47
out the same day. So um yeah starting to
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feel really good.
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>> Um and and hopefully just it'll get
00:08:54
better from here.
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>> Did you have to make any significant
00:08:56
lifestyle changes or anything?
00:08:58
>> Um yeah, mainly just training. Um my my
00:09:02
sport um for the last 20 years has been
00:09:05
been outrigger canoeing wak arama and I
00:09:08
used to you know I'd be getting up at 5
00:09:12
4:30 every Tuesday Thursday morning and
00:09:15
and and going to the Takapuna beach and
00:09:18
and and with a group of guys and
00:09:21
paddling every morning you know so to
00:09:23
stop that and I've stopped I stopped it
00:09:25
a year ago that's been pretty tough
00:09:27
probably just because of I'm used to
00:09:30
doing something in a team sport. I hate
00:09:33
training by myself. That's why I enjoy
00:09:35
the uh the six man outriggers.
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>> I think that paints a picture of the
00:09:40
sort of the sort of guy you are and the
00:09:41
sort of life you're living now. Like
00:09:43
you're obviously very disciplined. Um
00:09:45
yeah, quite I mean to get up at 4:30 in
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the morning twice a week.
00:09:49
>> Yeah. Something like like exercise or
00:09:52
sport then yeah I'll get up I'll get up
00:09:55
early. I mean, I I love watching sport
00:09:58
on TV, but obviously the MS doesn't like
00:10:01
all the rugby and and the golf I watch
00:10:03
and the cycling, so I've got to get up
00:10:05
early sometimes just to fast forward it
00:10:08
all and get through it before she gets
00:10:10
up. So,
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>> there's so much sport, eh?
00:10:12
>> It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
00:10:14
>> Um, yeah, you you mentioned your MS just
00:10:16
then. Just before we started recording,
00:10:17
you told me you're engaged. I said,
00:10:19
"Congratulations." Um, you told me not
00:10:21
to get too excited because you've been
00:10:22
engaged for like 14 years.
00:10:24
>> 14. How does that happen? I know.
00:10:25
>> How do you get engaged and then manage
00:10:27
to avoid a wedding?
00:10:28
>> Oh, well, look, um, everything's going
00:10:31
along nicely. Uh, Anna is is is not that
00:10:35
fussed about, um,
00:10:38
getting married at the moment, I
00:10:39
suppose, and obviously uh,
00:10:45
things cost a lot of money these days.
00:10:47
So,
00:10:49
so we're happy.
00:10:52
Are you are you enjoying this this age
00:10:53
and stage of life that you're at now and
00:10:55
in your early 60s? A granddad?
00:10:59
>> Yeah, I'm a granddad. Uh unfortunately,
00:11:02
my grandkids live
00:11:04
two live over in um in France and and
00:11:07
the other five are in the Hawks Bay. So,
00:11:09
I don't see as much of them um as as I
00:11:12
would like. Um but then so in saying
00:11:15
that when the five from the Hawks Bay
00:11:17
come up after two days I'm like holy
00:11:21
[ __ ]
00:11:23
You can go and help.
00:11:26
>> Yeah. But no it's it's good being a
00:11:29
grandad.
00:11:29
>> Yeah. Well that's cool. Well let's go
00:11:31
let's go back to the uh the early years
00:11:33
and we'll paint a picture of um who
00:11:35
body. So you're from Mangakino.
00:11:37
>> Yep. Born mangakino.
00:11:39
>> Yeah. Um Willie Apiata is from there
00:11:40
too. Do you know Willie Apiata, the
00:11:42
Victoria Cross winner?
00:11:43
>> No, mate. I
00:11:44
>> I wish I did in case I was in trouble.
00:11:47
But um
00:11:49
>> I heard I heard him in an interview talk
00:11:50
about being from um um Mangakino. And I
00:11:54
wondered if you could sort of resonate
00:11:55
with this like with the success that
00:11:57
he's enjoy enjoyed in his life. He's
00:11:59
like, "Oh, you know, a small small moldy
00:12:00
boy from Mangino."
00:12:02
>> Do you do you feel the same way like um
00:12:04
that you know, are you punched above
00:12:06
your weight like being from such a small
00:12:08
sort of place? Um my dad was down that
00:12:11
way working. Um and and
00:12:15
fortunately or unfortunately um we I
00:12:18
left there when I was young like
00:12:21
a year old or something or 6 months old
00:12:24
I can't remember. Um and moved up to
00:12:26
Oakland so um I didn't really can't
00:12:29
really remember anything of of those
00:12:31
times but
00:12:32
>> certainly glad that I was born down that
00:12:35
way I suppose.
00:12:36
>> Yeah. And uh you see you're part
00:12:39
Croatian, part Maldi.
00:12:40
>> Yeah.
00:12:40
>> So the Frano that's um the Croatian word
00:12:43
for Francis.
00:12:44
>> Frank.
00:12:44
>> Frank.
00:12:45
>> Yeah.
00:12:45
>> Yeah.
00:12:46
>> So who who's who on your on your parents
00:12:48
side?
00:12:49
>> My um uh my dad's
00:12:52
uh father is a was creation from um
00:12:55
Kchilla in uh which is just a little
00:13:00
island off to Brvnik. So beautiful
00:13:03
little part of the world
00:13:04
>> and everyone seems to go there now for
00:13:06
holidays and the the the Croatian
00:13:09
coastline is beautiful. So
00:13:11
>> Oh, it's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I've
00:13:13
been to the old town of De Brvnik and
00:13:15
Split and Havar.
00:13:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:18
>> Everyone everyone does sailed Croatia.
00:13:20
Are are you are you quite connected with
00:13:22
um with with your cultures?
00:13:24
>> No, not so much. No. Um having lived
00:13:27
overseas a fair bit um yeah. No, I I not
00:13:31
as much as I've I would have liked. I
00:13:33
you know, I can't speak today. I I can't
00:13:36
speak Croatian. Um which I wish I could.
00:13:40
Um the unfortunate thing about when we
00:13:43
were growing up is that the my
00:13:46
grandfather
00:13:49
didn't want to teach my dad and and the
00:13:52
rest of my uncles and aunties Croatian
00:13:55
because he said, "You're never going to
00:13:57
go back there." because obviously he was
00:13:59
over here just after the war
00:14:02
um the first world war and so so they
00:14:06
didn't learn it at all. He wouldn't
00:14:07
speak it so which is a shame.
00:14:11
>> Yeah.
00:14:14
>> Not that it's something that you sort of
00:14:15
had a choice in but is it a regret of
00:14:16
yours?
00:14:17
>> Yeah, definitely. Definitely
00:14:20
>> more so um to um but again living
00:14:25
overseas a lot it's pretty hard to pick
00:14:27
it up.
00:14:28
>> Um my sister is is is is has been
00:14:31
learning it for the last two or three
00:14:33
years. So that's great to see.
00:14:36
>> But no, not me.
00:14:39
>> Too old to learn. I'm like I'm like it
00:14:43
was so hard at school just I was I was
00:14:46
one of those pupils who was there to
00:14:48
play rugby and and do other sports and
00:14:51
that was it.
00:14:52
>> Yeah.
00:14:52
>> Yeah. So
00:14:54
>> well it worked out all right for you in
00:14:55
the end. What what are your earliest
00:14:57
memories and particularly your earliest
00:14:59
um rugby memories?
00:15:01
>> You're a league family. E
00:15:04
>> Union
00:15:04
>> Union family
00:15:05
>> Union family. Union family. Um, first
00:15:07
memories, um, first memories are going
00:15:11
to to Northshore Rugby Club with my dad.
00:15:14
Um, he used to use me as an excuse on
00:15:16
the weekends for getting home late. Uh,
00:15:21
thinking telling mom that I was playing
00:15:23
with all the kids out on the on the
00:15:25
field, which I was, but only because he
00:15:28
was still inside having a beer, you
00:15:30
know. And back in those days, you can
00:15:31
imagine that, you know, the the drink
00:15:33
driving rules were quite a little bit
00:15:36
more relaxed. So, so yeah, is going down
00:15:39
there watching uh watching those guys
00:15:41
play and run around and and and always
00:15:44
wanting to be one of them one day. Um,
00:15:47
and it got started because I lived in
00:15:50
Glenfield. Uh I went to the Glenfield
00:15:52
Rugby Club and my memories of
00:15:57
uh like uh bun fights after, you know,
00:16:01
at the end of the season uh playing
00:16:03
rugby with with all my mates in the air
00:16:05
in the in and around the streets we
00:16:08
lived and jumping in um their father's
00:16:12
parala and because we were dirty,
00:16:15
there's five of us in his boot, you
00:16:17
know,
00:16:19
and we thought it was Hey, you know, you
00:16:21
Oh, we can jump in the boot.
00:16:24
Yeah. So, you probably not get away with
00:16:25
that these days, but we enjoyed it back
00:16:28
then.
00:16:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. These um these are great
00:16:30
memories. They haven't aged particularly
00:16:32
well though over the last 50 odd years.
00:16:34
>> Yeah, I've got similar memories. Were
00:16:36
you Were you a good kid? Were you Did
00:16:38
you get in much trouble as a kid?
00:16:40
>> No. No. I was I was I think I was a
00:16:42
pretty good kid. Yeah. I think I um I
00:16:44
did probably pick up a bit of a few
00:16:47
things like um I got my speed from my
00:16:51
dad and um not because not because of of
00:16:56
that he had it because he was a prop
00:16:59
although he'll tell me that he used to
00:17:01
be a 10 once and he was pretty quick.
00:17:03
I'm like a year radio. Um but because I
00:17:06
was um always got in trouble and I had
00:17:09
to get out of the house before he got
00:17:11
hold of me and gave me hiding
00:17:14
a justified kick up the backside, you
00:17:16
know. So I used to sprint out across the
00:17:19
balcony, hurdle a fence without him
00:17:22
without touching it and he wasn't
00:17:23
hurdling no fence and those and I just
00:17:26
stand on the other side till he calmed
00:17:28
down.
00:17:32
Unfortunately,
00:17:33
he's got a long memory.
00:17:36
So, although he'd calmed down, I still
00:17:38
got to boot up the ass and your usual
00:17:40
sort of back in those days, you know.
00:17:42
>> Yeah. And what about the uh the goal
00:17:44
kicking? Where did that start? Why did
00:17:46
that start?
00:17:48
>> Uh I think it's it started really when I
00:17:50
was um
00:17:53
probably
00:17:55
doing it part-time at Westlake Boys when
00:17:57
I was in the first 15 there. Um, and
00:18:02
from then on it was just like a
00:18:05
um it wasn't a passion to be a goal
00:18:08
kicker because I didn't want to be a
00:18:09
goal kicker. Um, but it was um
00:18:13
there was no one else really to do it
00:18:15
back in those days. There was a couple
00:18:17
of other guys I think uh remember Billy
00:18:19
Balden the
00:18:21
um
00:18:22
>> the cricket umpire?
00:18:23
>> Cricket umpire. Well, he was in the
00:18:25
first 15 with me as well. In fact, he
00:18:28
was 10, I think, and I was 12. And he he
00:18:31
used to I think he used to think he was
00:18:32
better than me.
00:18:33
>> Amazing. He's one of the most flamboyant
00:18:36
and animated cricket umpires.
00:18:38
>> He was a bit like that when we were at
00:18:39
school, too. Bit of a strange dude. I
00:18:43
mean, he's a friend of mine as well. But
00:18:45
I mean, I'm like, he's bit strange. But
00:18:48
>> you can say that if you're friends of
00:18:49
But you were you were really really
00:18:51
good. Everyone talked about your
00:18:52
technique and how good you were. Was it
00:18:54
was it like our natural talent or was it
00:18:56
just like 10,000 hours of practice
00:18:58
outside on your own or
00:19:00
>> um to start with before I got to Wigan
00:19:02
it was just on a Friday before a game.
00:19:05
Um and then I was either really good or
00:19:08
really bad
00:19:10
and every now and then in the middle,
00:19:12
you know what I mean? So it was it was
00:19:15
because I hadn't done didn't really
00:19:16
practice you know
00:19:18
and
00:19:20
because Foxy was around it just meant
00:19:22
that I mean I did it for North Harbor
00:19:24
when North Harbor split in 85 and and
00:19:27
was reasonable at at that level but I
00:19:30
again I just didn't if you remember
00:19:32
North Harour back in the day all we did
00:19:35
was throw the ball around
00:19:37
>> you know so even inside our own 22
00:19:39
behind our line we used to throw it
00:19:41
around a lot So really wanted to score
00:19:44
more tries and kick kick the goals. They
00:19:46
were a bonus but between myself and uh
00:19:50
and uh um Paul Feny. Um we used to share
00:19:56
the kicking so and a few other players
00:19:59
along the way. Um, so I didn't really
00:20:02
get into that, like I say, until I got
00:20:04
to Wigan in in a more serious
00:20:08
um, vein and trying to try to figure out
00:20:12
again how I could make that team, you
00:20:13
know. So, because I wasn't it was being
00:20:16
on the wing and wigan and I'd never
00:20:19
played wing before, but didn't look that
00:20:21
hard. Didn't have didn't have to think
00:20:23
too much, you know, like just get the
00:20:26
ball and run, center set you up, that
00:20:28
sort of thing. Um, and we had some
00:20:30
pretty good centers there. Um,
00:20:34
and yeah, so that's how it all started
00:20:36
slowly.
00:20:37
>> So, a lot of it was natural cuz I've had
00:20:39
Grant Fox on the podcast and he he
00:20:41
talked about practicing for hours and
00:20:42
hours every spare minute on on his farm
00:20:45
growing up.
00:20:46
>> We all know the Dan Carter story like
00:20:47
there was some rugby goalposts in the
00:20:49
the in the the front yard of their
00:20:51
house, which he he practiced until dark
00:20:53
until his parents called him in for
00:20:54
dinner. Not the same. Not the same for
00:20:56
you.
00:20:56
>> Yeah. No, no, no. This is a This is a
00:20:59
real flex.
00:21:00
>> No, I had a We had a backyard, but
00:21:03
no post on it. We used to play cricket
00:21:05
and break the window. So, there's no way
00:21:06
I'm kicking a rugby ball to break a
00:21:08
window because I'll get in trouble. So,
00:21:11
>> so no, but I mean, I became good at goal
00:21:15
kicking because I I did what those guys
00:21:19
did, but I just did it a lot later, you
00:21:23
know.
00:21:23
>> Incredible.
00:21:25
Can
00:21:25
>> Can you watch kickers now without
00:21:27
analyzing them? Like if you're watching
00:21:28
a game when you
00:21:31
>> I will I will. Yeah, I do. I do. I do. I
00:21:34
watch I don't I don't mean to. If it if
00:21:37
they zoom in and it's right the camera's
00:21:40
right behind them and they're in the
00:21:41
corner and there's kicking, then I'll
00:21:43
I'll analyze them,
00:21:45
>> see what they're doing wrong or or how
00:21:48
they do it and it works. And and that's
00:21:51
because there'll be a fundamental thing
00:21:53
that everyone does. You might have a
00:21:56
different styles, but there's something
00:21:57
that you do which is we all sort of do.
00:22:01
>> Can you can you elaborate on that? Cuz
00:22:02
like to me, I see someone kicking it.
00:22:04
Everyone looks the same to me. I don't
00:22:05
know what I'm looking for. Like what are
00:22:07
you looking at? What are you
00:22:08
>> I'm just looking at at at whether
00:22:10
they've got a follow through with their
00:22:12
body. um whether um even if they stop
00:22:15
their body's still pointing at the
00:22:18
towards the post
00:22:19
>> or at the middle towards the middle of
00:22:20
the post. Um um and so I can sort of
00:22:24
figure out from there whether they've
00:22:28
you know their legs their legs come
00:22:31
across or they move their body offline
00:22:33
and and so the ball goes where the the
00:22:36
body goes. Um, some I don't bother with
00:22:40
because they whatever they're doing it
00:22:43
works really well and they it's
00:22:45
generally the guys who do the big um
00:22:47
like Thirsten used to do.
00:22:50
um he he'd just curl it in from you know
00:22:53
from the sidelines and everything and
00:22:55
I'm like I'm gonna bother watching
00:22:57
because because if someone's got a style
00:22:59
and it works for them and it's got and
00:23:02
it's goes against everything I'm oh I I
00:23:05
I was practicing then
00:23:08
don't change
00:23:10
>> you know don't change
00:23:10
>> there's a saying in in golf it's not
00:23:12
it's not how it's how many and I suppose
00:23:14
it's the same with goal kicking if it
00:23:16
works who um
00:23:18
>> yeah what what what do you think have
00:23:19
like players that have like really
00:23:21
really unique individual styles like
00:23:23
Johnny Wilkinson springs to mind. Um
00:23:25
Damen McKenzie with the smirk.
00:23:27
>> Oh yeah.
00:23:30
>> Oh, each to their own. You know, if it
00:23:31
if it works for if it works for you,
00:23:34
then keep doing it. But if it doesn't
00:23:36
work, then
00:23:38
>> get rid of the smirk if that's if it's
00:23:40
if he's I mean, he's gigging fine. But
00:23:42
if he doesn't get rid of something, you
00:23:44
know, whatever that is, you know, just
00:23:47
change change something cuz you know,
00:23:50
like my boys kick as well and I was just
00:23:52
speaking to him on the way um Ben who's
00:23:55
in France on the way here and he's
00:23:57
changed his slightly um to the same sort
00:24:00
of way that Ramos kicks for the French
00:24:03
team. He he's had to change a few
00:24:05
things. So, um, you know, you generally
00:24:09
speaking, if you've got a a style and
00:24:12
you don't want to change it too much,
00:24:15
uh,
00:24:17
the problem you have is is if you train
00:24:19
too much,
00:24:21
you'll it's a good way to pick up bad
00:24:23
habits. Mhm.
00:24:24
>> So, for example, uh I was it it took me
00:24:28
two months to get of of training six
00:24:31
days a week, doing the same routine over
00:24:33
and over and over again to get good at
00:24:35
it. After that, I only trained once a
00:24:40
week and that's the the night or two
00:24:44
days before the game and that was it. If
00:24:46
it was too wet
00:24:48
and rainy and windy, I wouldn't
00:24:50
practice. I'd go and kick it in a into a
00:24:53
net
00:24:54
>> and just get timing.
00:24:56
Whereas some guys will go out and kick
00:24:59
hundreds and hundreds of balls and and
00:25:03
you can just pick up pick up bad habits
00:25:05
or get injuries, you know. So,
00:25:08
a little thing that I used to do was if
00:25:11
I did 10, 15, 20 kicks, then I would
00:25:15
also in between just swing my left leg
00:25:20
the other way pretending I'm kicking a
00:25:22
goal just to try and balance balance the
00:25:25
body up, you know, rather than just
00:25:27
going that way all the time. Just
00:25:30
>> because it might be I might end up
00:25:32
pulling something whether it's a hemi or
00:25:34
whatever, you know. Who who have who who
00:25:36
are your favorite all black players of
00:25:38
recent years in that position? So like
00:25:40
Dan,
00:25:42
>> Richie Mo,
00:25:43
>> Dan um um Moa,
00:25:47
>> I really like the way he plays. He's
00:25:50
really good. Um,
00:25:52
and that's yeah, I mean I there's
00:25:55
there's some good tens around, but I
00:25:57
just follow the All Blacks and
00:25:59
>> although they have been quite it's been
00:26:02
quite tough uh last couple of games, you
00:26:05
know.
00:26:06
>> And do do any of the current players
00:26:07
like reach out to you to pick your
00:26:09
brains?
00:26:09
>> N look, there's so many uh there's so
00:26:12
many really good
00:26:14
kickers in the game that I don't they
00:26:17
don't need to see me.
00:26:19
Whoever's who whoever's closest to age
00:26:23
of the like Bod and them, they might
00:26:25
speak to Dan. I don't know.
00:26:27
>> But they've got plenty of people around
00:26:28
them.
00:26:30
>> Half the time I think that most teams
00:26:32
have a kicking coach or
00:26:33
>> as well as a a coach for every other
00:26:36
thing, you know.
00:26:37
>> Yeah, it's different now. E I um It's
00:26:39
crazy. I I've got a I've got a by the
00:26:42
time this this podcast comes out, this
00:26:43
one's well and truly going to be out,
00:26:44
but I caught up with Lorie Mains a
00:26:46
couple of weeks ago.
00:26:46
>> Oh, yeah. Um, so it was him and Earl
00:26:48
Curtain and that was that was basically
00:26:50
it in terms of the coaching team. And
00:26:52
now, yeah, now there's just so many
00:26:54
coaches, isn't there?
00:26:55
>> Yeah. Sometimes you look at it and go,
00:26:56
man, this you don't need that. Surely
00:26:58
you don't need that many. You know, you
00:27:00
can outsource some if you're trying to
00:27:02
save money or you know what, it's like
00:27:04
mate.
00:27:06
There's a bus the bus for the management
00:27:08
and coaches and then there's a bus for
00:27:11
two buses for the players, you know, or
00:27:13
bus for the players. So yeah, it's a bit
00:27:16
Yeah, I mean everyone's doing it. So,
00:27:19
>> but it doesn't mean you have to follow
00:27:21
everyone and do the same thing, but
00:27:24
>> do you do you think you would have
00:27:25
performed better as a player and with in
00:27:27
in the environment today like with all
00:27:29
the information and
00:27:31
>> Oh, I would have I would have because um
00:27:34
because I wouldn't have been working,
00:27:36
>> you know.
00:27:37
>> Yeah,
00:27:37
>> it's it's completely different. So, you
00:27:40
know, we had to we had to find a time in
00:27:43
the day to to train or do extra
00:27:46
training. And I was um at one point I
00:27:49
was a courier driver, you know, so for
00:27:52
New Zealand couriers out at um Carbine
00:27:54
Road in Mount Wellington and I had to
00:27:58
like go for runs around the Pame Basin a
00:28:01
couple of times at at at lunchtime
00:28:04
because that's all the time I had. And
00:28:06
then I just grab some sandwiches and a
00:28:08
drink, jump change my shirt, jump back
00:28:10
in the in the van and
00:28:13
toodle on off again, you know. So,
00:28:15
>> so it's completely different when you're
00:28:18
fully professional and you don't have to
00:28:20
work and, you know, and I sort of I got
00:28:23
I I got the tail end of that in the
00:28:25
rugby union when I was about to retire
00:28:28
and and played a couple of more years,
00:28:30
which was good, but then by that time
00:28:32
the body was starting to slow down.
00:28:35
Yeah, I I love hearing these um stories
00:28:38
about the the amateur era. It's just
00:28:40
like a completely different time. We're
00:28:41
going to get to the um yeah 87 World Cup
00:28:43
soon, but you look at the team, there
00:28:45
was you know Sir John Kerwin who's a
00:28:47
butcher. There were builders on the
00:28:49
team, farmers,
00:28:50
>> you a courier as you just said. Um,
00:28:54
yeah, it's crazy. Just different
00:28:56
different time, eh?
00:28:57
>> Definitely. Definitely. Especially those
00:28:59
farmers. Stay away from them if uh if
00:29:02
you piss them off.
00:29:05
>> What do you mean?
00:29:06
>> They going to they give you one warning
00:29:08
and then they'll punch you.
00:29:11
>> Yeah. So, um 1986, that's when you um
00:29:14
made the All Black Squad for the first
00:29:16
time.
00:29:17
>> What are your recollections of that? Was
00:29:18
it um was it like a TV announcement? Did
00:29:20
you get a call from who was the coach?
00:29:23
Oh, Brian Lore.
00:29:24
>> Brian Lahore. Yeah,
00:29:25
>> Sir Brian Lore. Did you get a phone
00:29:26
call? Is it on the radio?
00:29:28
>> No, it was on the radio, I think.
00:29:29
>> [ __ ] Yeah, we were in fact um
00:29:33
yeah, back in those days it was on the
00:29:35
radio and I remember one time I can't
00:29:36
remember whether it was the one um in '
00:29:38
86, but you we were training with North
00:29:42
Harbor um on the Sunday and we were
00:29:46
running around and then someone said,
00:29:48
"Oh, it's 10:00."
00:29:51
and they'd come out with a radio and
00:29:52
we'd be standing there
00:29:54
waiting to see if we're in or not, you
00:29:56
know, and then if your name came up, we
00:29:59
go, "Yeah." And then the coach would go,
00:30:02
"Yeah, get on the line. It's not going
00:30:04
to work."
00:30:05
>> Back to work.
00:30:07
>> So, were you were you is that like a
00:30:09
core memory for you making the All
00:30:10
Blacks for the first? Were you expected
00:30:11
to make the
00:30:12
>> Yeah. Um,
00:30:15
>> yeah. Yeah, I was I knew I had a shot
00:30:17
because all the Cavaliers had gone, you
00:30:19
know, and they were in trouble. So So
00:30:22
they got a slap on the wrist, which was
00:30:25
um um helped a lot of us back then. So
00:30:29
was it helped like Fitzy was there and
00:30:31
Mike Brewer and myself and and uh oh
00:30:35
just about the whole team, you know. So
00:30:38
that's the opportunity that we all
00:30:39
needed to sort of show what we can do.
00:30:42
Um and we ended up obviously beating the
00:30:44
French which was great. Um it was a bit
00:30:48
daunting but you know because Blano was
00:30:50
there and Laray and um some of their
00:30:55
forwards were scary as hell. Um so it
00:30:58
was it was it was a tough day at the
00:31:00
office and that man for man they were a
00:31:02
lot better than us
00:31:03
>> but we played together better as a team
00:31:06
and and you know we had some standout
00:31:09
performances. Obviously JK was
00:31:12
was there and and yeah, we just we just
00:31:15
did it as a team and and you know, I got
00:31:18
a few kicks in that game and some two
00:31:21
drop kicks and I'd never done a drop
00:31:23
kick before in my life, you know, cuz I
00:31:26
was a runner. I wasn't go Why would I
00:31:28
drop kick? I'm just going to pretend to
00:31:30
drop kick and run, but I'm not going to
00:31:32
drop kick. And then I ended up kicking
00:31:35
two of them. They were both ugly looking
00:31:37
kicks, you know, but they went over, you
00:31:39
know. One was like wasn't even going on.
00:31:42
I was floating around. It just drops
00:31:43
over. I'm going, "Oh, mate, I'll take
00:31:45
that." And so, mate, funny funnily
00:31:48
enough, I never did another drop kick in
00:31:50
my life cuz two from two, you know,
00:31:52
that's a 100% record.
00:31:55
I'm not going to spoil that, mate.
00:31:57
>> Don't want to ruin your legacy. Did
00:31:59
What? Did the um Did the team c Who was
00:32:01
the team captain? Was that um Andy
00:32:02
Dalton? No,
00:32:04
>> he was with the World Cup. He was the
00:32:06
offfield,
00:32:07
>> right,
00:32:07
>> captain and and and David Kirk in the
00:32:09
World Cup.
00:32:10
>> So why um what did the captain ask you
00:32:13
to do the drop kicks or?
00:32:15
>> No, no, like an instinct thing.
00:32:16
>> Just an instinct thing. I think I just
00:32:18
did it.
00:32:19
>> And is that is that the French game?
00:32:20
There's this this moment in um that's
00:32:22
like in New Zealand sporting folklore,
00:32:25
you know, Buck Shelfford um having his
00:32:27
um like scrotum ripped open.
00:32:29
>> Oh yeah, that was another French tour
00:32:31
later on. Yeah, that you were there.
00:32:33
>> Yeah, I was. Yeah, I got I got smacked
00:32:36
around as well. Yeah.
00:32:37
>> Yeah. What's the What's the story with
00:32:39
Buck's testicle?
00:32:40
>> Oh, you know, I was hanging out. It was
00:32:42
not a pretty sight, I can tell you.
00:32:45
>> So, it got rucked open.
00:32:47
>> He got rucked open and then he just he
00:32:50
just kept playing cuz he's cuz he's a
00:32:53
tough either tough or stupid. And I'm
00:32:55
going to say tough because if I say
00:32:57
stupid, he'll give me a slap. In fact,
00:33:01
probably two years ago when I was co
00:33:02
three or three or four years ago when I
00:33:04
was coaching Northshore Prims just off
00:33:07
to the side there and and he came in
00:33:10
after I we' won a final or something and
00:33:12
I I said something smart to him and he
00:33:14
whacked me around the ears freaking real
00:33:17
hard, you know, like ears ringing. I'm
00:33:18
going and everyone in there went
00:33:22
and they sort of what the hell just
00:33:24
happened then they cracked up laughing
00:33:25
and I'm like ah I'm too old for you to
00:33:28
do that [ __ ] anymore.
00:33:32
He goes, "No, you're not. You're just a
00:33:33
cheeky little prick and you you'll get
00:33:35
another one if you're not careful." I
00:33:37
went, "Oh, yeah. Sorry about that.
00:33:38
[ __ ] and all the players are laughing
00:33:40
at me and all that." So, yeah,
00:33:42
>> some things never change.
00:33:44
>> So, the the So, the testicle thing, was
00:33:46
it a big thing at the time? Like a Oh,
00:33:48
yeah. When the game finishes, is
00:33:49
everyone in the team like outraged by it
00:33:51
or is it like like
00:33:52
>> We were just like we just went, "What
00:33:54
the hell just happened?" Um they we sort
00:33:58
of all all said they might they're on
00:34:01
something these fers the forwards
00:34:02
especially because they were crazy like
00:34:05
going down the tunnel you know you could
00:34:08
see their eyes freaking bulging out some
00:34:10
of couple of them forwards were
00:34:12
headbutting a concrete wall you know a
00:34:14
bit of blood scing we going holy what
00:34:17
the hell's going on here and so yeah I
00:34:20
got concussed I think a couple of times
00:34:22
or once and then just I carried on
00:34:24
saying
00:34:25
>> no HIA back then.
00:34:27
>> No HIA back then. And yeah, then
00:34:30
obviously when Shelfford was in the
00:34:32
showers, yeah, it was like you throw up
00:34:36
or something. It was not a good sight.
00:34:39
But but I um
00:34:43
we had a uh we the next morning we
00:34:46
actually had a little session and
00:34:47
Shelfford comes down and he's got this
00:34:49
big nappy thing on, you know, and I
00:34:53
and so I thought to myself, "Oh, this is
00:34:56
a great time just to give it to him and
00:34:58
have so yeah, I got smart to him and and
00:35:00
and
00:35:02
you know, took the piss out of him and
00:35:03
and he couldn't chase me cuz he couldn't
00:35:07
he could just barely walk.
00:35:10
>> I hope for your sake he's he's too old
00:35:12
now to know what a podcast is cuz if he
00:35:14
hears this, you're going to get another
00:35:15
smack around the ear.
00:35:16
>> Get another smack here. He gave me a
00:35:18
lift home last week actually when we
00:35:20
watched North Harbor.
00:35:21
>> So,
00:35:22
>> how is he? He's He's quite like I asked
00:35:24
him to go on the podcast maybe about a
00:35:25
year ago and he said he he just not no
00:35:27
interest in it. He's just all about his
00:35:28
grandkids now.
00:35:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that'll be right.
00:35:31
>> Yeah. No, he's not that interested in in
00:35:34
doing a lot of this stuff. So,
00:35:37
>> they're great stories to share, though.
00:35:38
Like, it's um it's part of New Zealand
00:35:40
history. So, it's an honor to have you
00:35:42
here today. It's really cool.
00:35:43
>> Yeah, he's I mean, obviously, we used to
00:35:46
call him uh we used to we used to call
00:35:48
him God, you know, basically um down the
00:35:52
rugby club when he walked in or wherever
00:35:55
he walked in, we just North Harbor
00:35:57
Rugby, we just drop to our knees and go,
00:36:00
"Oh, buck shelf. God, we're not worthy."
00:36:03
And he'd whack us all as we were. Then
00:36:05
we'd stand up. Then we stand. God, just
00:36:08
hit me. Yeah. You know
00:36:09
>> why? Why was it just like a mana or a
00:36:12
presence
00:36:12
>> mana? Cuz he was just scary. Scary and
00:36:16
good and tough and his back was like he
00:36:19
was whipped, you know. Um and yeah, when
00:36:23
he took his shirt off in the showers and
00:36:24
all that, he did and he didn't care. And
00:36:26
he he he used to cheat. He said, "Yeah,
00:36:29
I don't care. What's a ruck? It's not
00:36:32
that bad." And we're going, "You sure?"
00:36:34
Cuz that looks sore, you know?
00:36:36
>> Oh, spring marks all over.
00:36:37
>> Spring marks all over his back. Yeah.
00:36:39
And so, so, yeah. So, you sort of, yeah,
00:36:43
we're we're scared of him.
00:36:45
>> Yeah. I I appreciate you telling these
00:36:47
stories. Like there's there's a lot lot
00:36:48
of stories out there about, you know,
00:36:50
say Colin Me for example. I feel like
00:36:52
Buck Shelfford probably Yeah. deserves
00:36:54
the same sort of kudos. The stories like
00:36:56
sort of what you're you're telling
00:36:57
today.
00:36:58
>> Um, your Kiwi folk hero. What were the
00:37:01
perks? You mentioned before you were um
00:37:03
a courier at at the time. So what were
00:37:05
the perks of being an all black in in
00:37:07
the amateur era? What did you get? Did
00:37:09
you get like um per DMs?
00:37:10
>> Yeah, we got per DMs. I think it was
00:37:12
like maybe I think it was like 20
00:37:16
something dollars a day or something.
00:37:18
>> So it's [ __ ] money even at the time.
00:37:20
>> Yeah. And obvious and in in those days
00:37:22
we had a we had a like you had a lot of
00:37:24
different groups of people and one was
00:37:27
the card school. So we used to we used
00:37:31
to most evenings when we were on tour um
00:37:34
or in a hotel we would play poker for
00:37:39
you know like maximum of a dollar
00:37:42
um blind and all that sort of stuff. So
00:37:45
yeah. So so that didn't last long if you
00:37:49
lost.
00:37:50
And then um yeah, you mentioned before
00:37:52
>> you mentioned before like being one of
00:37:54
the the dirty dirties and how you'd have
00:37:56
to sell tickets for and what was that
00:37:58
for? Like a team like a fund like a
00:37:59
pool.
00:38:00
>> Yeah, just team fund. Oh yeah,
00:38:01
>> just a team fund. Yeah.
00:38:02
>> In case we wanted to have some extra
00:38:04
beers and all that.
00:38:05
>> I mean on one tour we had um uh the
00:38:08
breweries
00:38:10
um when we went on went to go to
00:38:13
England, we had we had a Paladus Stiny
00:38:16
Classics come with us. We we had in the
00:38:22
hotels we'd have like a they'd take all
00:38:24
the alcohol and and drinks out of the
00:38:26
fridges and put in some stein l
00:38:30
you know cuz some some of these uh some
00:38:33
of those farmers we train in the morning
00:38:36
they'd have a beer after training like
00:38:38
at lunch just just one but they just
00:38:42
we're like mate it's only it's only
00:38:45
12:00
00:38:49
I um I asked Lori Mains. I said, "Who
00:38:52
like who who drunk more? Uh the All
00:38:53
Blacks in the 70s when you were playing
00:38:55
or the All Blacks in the ' 90s when you
00:38:56
were coaching?" And he he didn't even
00:38:57
hesitate. He said, "The '9s all the
00:38:59
way."
00:39:00
>> Yeah.
00:39:00
>> Yeah. It was a real drinking culture at
00:39:02
the time. E
00:39:03
>> It was a drinking culture. And And you
00:39:05
know, you'd have your
00:39:07
um even in the 80s when we were there,
00:39:09
like you'd have your uh your court
00:39:11
sessions straight after after games. Um,
00:39:14
and you know, you you get plastered
00:39:17
basically.
00:39:18
>> Yeah. What happens at a court session?
00:39:20
>> I know. You just have a judge,
00:39:22
couple of sidekicks, and then you just
00:39:25
play stupid games. Yeah. So, it's uh
00:39:30
>> So, you have you have to you you're made
00:39:32
to drink for like mistakes you made in
00:39:34
the game or
00:39:34
>> Oh, yeah. You Well, I mean, it's it's to
00:39:37
get together and have a sing a bit of a
00:39:38
sing song, too. You know, we break it up
00:39:40
with a a song or or two. Um, and then
00:39:43
we'd we'd have like any fines. Does did
00:39:46
anyone do something stupid? Um, and it
00:39:48
might it won't be a free-for-all to
00:39:50
start with, but the judges in them will
00:39:52
go, "Right, you guys who didn't score a
00:39:54
trial, who scored a try, well, you can
00:39:57
drink for being a smartass tri, you
00:40:00
know, it's it's it's stupid shit." Well,
00:40:03
we'll do a we'll do a um a speed round,
00:40:06
>> you know, to see
00:40:07
>> to see how quickly we can we can all
00:40:10
drink our bottle a bottle or a glass
00:40:13
>> and then at the end we'll do another
00:40:15
one, see if we can beat it.
00:40:17
>> Things like that. You know, there's
00:40:18
plenty of stupid games
00:40:20
that you come up with and and and you
00:40:22
know, if you got guys who have been at
00:40:24
uh down in Otago, then those fellas,
00:40:28
>> they know every single every single
00:40:30
drink
00:40:31
>> drinking game you can imagine.
00:40:33
>> Yeah. All sorts of
00:40:34
>> And they can drink more than anyone else
00:40:36
generally.
00:40:37
>> Yeah.
00:40:38
>> So,
00:40:38
>> yeah. And this is like preones, preocial
00:40:41
media, pre any of that stuff. Yeah.
00:40:43
>> What a golden time. Who were the who are
00:40:45
your best and worst roommates? Who did
00:40:47
who who were you roommed with? Like Foxy
00:40:49
or
00:40:51
>> normally a half back? A halfback?
00:40:53
>> Yeah. So, um
00:40:55
>> who was that? Kirk.
00:40:57
>> Oh, no. No, no, cuz I wasn't. That would
00:41:01
have been him and Foxy probably.
00:41:03
>> Yeah.
00:41:05
Graeme Bishop I would be with sometimes.
00:41:08
Um
00:41:10
>> but it would chop and change. But you
00:41:11
like if I'm if I'm in the reserves then
00:41:13
you'll be with a reserve back. If I'm
00:41:15
with a with a dirty duties and you'll
00:41:18
probably be in the dirty duties because
00:41:19
you don't want to be coming home
00:41:22
>> the night before a game and someone's
00:41:24
either playing or on the bench.
00:41:26
>> So you all all your dirty duties are
00:41:29
rooming together
00:41:31
>> basically.
00:41:33
Um yeah. So um the worst one
00:41:37
the worst ones are always the fords and
00:41:39
you're never put with a Ford.
00:41:42
Thank god. Why are they the worst?
00:41:45
>> Well, just cuz they are. They they they
00:41:48
get pushy and they [ __ ] you know,
00:41:51
>> they think they're the boss cuz they're
00:41:53
a lot bigger.
00:41:54
>> And generally they are because
00:41:56
because they are.
00:41:58
>> And and um the late Brian La Hoya's
00:42:00
coach, what was he like? Was he
00:42:01
intimidating? Yeah, they're all Yeah, he
00:42:04
was not so When you get to know him,
00:42:07
he's not he's a he's an awesome guy, you
00:42:09
know. Um and and a very good coach, but
00:42:12
he um
00:42:15
he was just like down to earth, quietly
00:42:18
spoken.
00:42:19
>> But then you get a Griswali, you know,
00:42:21
who was a good coach, but he was scary
00:42:24
and um he loved the whiskey, you know.
00:42:29
Um, Colum Me, we had I had Colin Me once
00:42:33
um and he was
00:42:36
um it was in our under in a Colts trial
00:42:38
team
00:42:40
and I can't tell you what he said to us
00:42:42
when we first walked in, but we were
00:42:43
scared that he when he walked in and
00:42:45
when he said what he said, we were like,
00:42:48
"Oh shit." You know, and it was based on
00:42:52
I I'll tell you as much as I can, but I
00:42:54
can't say the word.
00:42:55
>> You You can, but it's a podcast. You can
00:42:57
if you want.
00:42:58
>> Oh, no. I can't say this one.
00:43:00
>> So it starts with C anyway
00:43:03
>> and not
00:43:04
>> okay and and so he goes a
00:43:08
if I uh if I look at you and I say oi
00:43:12
siti
00:43:14
um it's not because I hate you. It's
00:43:17
because I can't remember your [ __ ]
00:43:19
name. Okay. And we're all [ __ ]
00:43:25
Yeah. So yeah. And and what about what
00:43:29
about Grant Fox? Yeah, we sort of
00:43:30
established earlier that your your
00:43:31
career in the All Blacks was sort of um
00:43:33
in his in his shadow. What was it? He's
00:43:36
he's super competitive. Like he when I
00:43:38
had him on the podcast like he told
00:43:39
stories about the first time Ryan beat
00:43:41
him in golf and they didn't talk for
00:43:43
like two or three days afterwards. Um so
00:43:46
was he like supportive and nurturing or
00:43:49
did he see you as like a threat or an
00:43:50
enemy?
00:43:51
>> No, no, no. We got on we got on fine,
00:43:52
you know. Um um I
00:43:55
>> Yeah. No, we I got we got them fine. Um
00:43:58
I mean it's like uh you have you have
00:44:02
your playing team and then you have your
00:44:04
forwards and your backs or sorry you
00:44:06
have your squad then you have your
00:44:07
forward your backs then you have your um
00:44:11
your clicks not click your your mates
00:44:14
you hang around with all the time. So in
00:44:16
in in most of these teams you have a
00:44:18
your different groups of guys you know.
00:44:21
So we had um we had the Jeffers who were
00:44:26
the Oaklanders.
00:44:28
Then we had the Brown brothers and the
00:44:33
the Brown brothers who played for
00:44:34
Oakland were in the Brown brothers
00:44:36
group, not the Jeffers group. And then
00:44:38
you had your uh the farmers.
00:44:42
Then you had the real quiet guys who
00:44:44
didn't mix and mingle too much. Um, so
00:44:48
you had these different and then you had
00:44:50
the card school who were in some in in
00:44:53
in multiple groups, you know, and those
00:44:56
are the those are sort of the guys cuz I
00:44:58
mean the the the brown boys used to go
00:45:01
and I don't know go to do stupid [ __ ]
00:45:05
and the other fells would be more
00:45:09
sensible or
00:45:10
>> what sort of stupid [ __ ] Oh man, we
00:45:11
just we could be bored. So I remember in
00:45:13
Cardiff one year we were bored. So we
00:45:17
decided to go and have a Oh, and um John
00:45:20
Gallagher, he was a token Brown brother.
00:45:23
So um we used to we went on a um a
00:45:27
hamburger eating crawl to see who could
00:45:29
eat the most hamburgers around Cardiff.
00:45:32
Well,
00:45:35
so we go into a one place, have a a
00:45:38
burger, go to the next place,
00:45:39
McDonald's, and whatever. And yeah, and
00:45:42
see who won. Well, we finished that and
00:45:44
we're all going, "Oh,
00:45:47
whose idea was it? That was so stupid,
00:45:49
you know."
00:45:51
>> Um, yeah. So, yeah, we just Yeah, some
00:45:56
of the things you just you got to figure
00:45:58
out what what to do in your downtime,
00:46:00
you know. M so
00:46:02
>> just killing time.
00:46:03
>> Just killing time.
00:46:04
>> So um the 1987 Rugby World Cup, you you
00:46:07
were part of that squad. You didn't get
00:46:08
to play though.
00:46:09
>> No, didn't get to play. Um which was
00:46:11
disappointing. Um I thought I might get
00:46:13
one um game against one of the smaller
00:46:17
teams
00:46:17
>> like an Italy or something.
00:46:18
>> Yeah, like in Italy or something, but
00:46:20
not but that was fine. Um
00:46:24
we were there. Yeah, I didn't I I wanted
00:46:27
the a game, but I also
00:46:31
wanted to be part of the team um and and
00:46:34
a winning side, a winning team. So, I I
00:46:36
I did whatever I could off the field to
00:46:40
make sure that like like the everyone
00:46:42
else um to make sure that that
00:46:46
they were in the best position to win
00:46:49
basically. So,
00:46:50
>> so on reflection like do you do you feel
00:46:52
like a World Cup winner?
00:46:54
>> Um, yep. I was part of it. Y I I
00:46:57
definitely feel like a World Cup winner.
00:46:59
Yeah, definitely.
00:47:00
>> Did you Cuz that was the I mean, we all
00:47:02
know um what a big deal the World Cup is
00:47:04
now and how hard it is to win one of
00:47:05
those things. Um this was the first one.
00:47:08
What? Yeah. What was the hype like
00:47:09
beforehand? I I remember it vaguely, but
00:47:11
I was like 13 14 at the time and it just
00:47:13
sort of came up out of nowhere and it's
00:47:14
like, "Oh [ __ ] this is the rookie."
00:47:16
>> Yeah, the hype was was was pretty big.
00:47:18
Um um we I remember we used to um Brian
00:47:22
Lort he took he took us around the
00:47:25
smaller provinces for trainings and all
00:47:28
that sort of stuff to get get everybody
00:47:32
feeling involved in the in the buildup
00:47:35
to it. So So that was great. Um we were
00:47:38
down the west coast uh sorry the east
00:47:41
coast down by uh
00:47:43
over over in the wrapper bush. So,
00:47:48
>> oh, is that where um were you billeted?
00:47:51
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:52
>> It's a crazy concept, eh?
00:47:54
>> Oh, yeah. We were billeted and [ __ ]
00:47:56
was it.
00:47:56
>> So, you like all the All Blacks at the
00:47:58
time. Like, it's just hard to imagine
00:48:00
like today like Bone and Barrett staying
00:48:02
at some random's house and
00:48:04
>> Yeah.
00:48:04
>> in Maston, you know.
00:48:05
>> Yeah. No, it was great. You know, we
00:48:08
really enjoyed it. You know, it's like
00:48:10
sometimes you get bit sick of the hotel
00:48:12
food anyway.
00:48:13
But it was just nice to meet different
00:48:15
people around the place and it was yeah
00:48:17
I mean it doesn't obviously when you
00:48:21
when you're growing up and going to
00:48:22
school and going on school trips you're
00:48:24
always getting billeted anyway. So and
00:48:26
even if you um with a club team
00:48:29
sometimes you got billeted
00:48:31
um on a on a on a weekend with club
00:48:33
trips. Yeah.
00:48:35
>> So, you know, you you got used to it and
00:48:38
they felt part of part of the whole
00:48:41
World Cup buildup, you know. So,
00:48:43
>> so were you like staying in some You
00:48:45
like a spare room in someone's house or
00:48:47
someone's sofa or
00:48:48
>> No, no, we're in a I was in a bedroom,
00:48:51
but it was on the coast,
00:48:54
but I can't remember where where in the
00:48:57
it was. But, you know,
00:48:58
>> it's quite quite funny because Well,
00:49:00
you're the Old Black, so I wouldn't
00:49:03
expect any of you guys to remember, but
00:49:04
for the like the family that you stayed
00:49:06
at, for them it's probably like a core
00:49:07
memory for life like
00:49:08
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, I
00:49:10
mean, they would they would definitely
00:49:12
be going, man, that was we had an all
00:49:14
black stage this year, but um
00:49:17
>> yeah, and I wish I could remember it,
00:49:19
but I just few too many knocks in rugby,
00:49:22
I suppose. I don't know.
00:49:24
>> Yeah. How how is your um you mentioned
00:49:25
before the concussion against the French
00:49:27
game? Did you Yeah. Are you okay now?
00:49:29
There's a lot of lot of chat about
00:49:30
concussion and
00:49:32
>> the ongoing effects of
00:49:34
>> Fortunately, I'm I'm I'm fine at the
00:49:35
moment.
00:49:36
>> Yeah.
00:49:36
>> Um
00:49:38
>> Yeah. I I mean I had the I had the
00:49:40
stroke and and last year and I think
00:49:42
I've I just I probably can't remember
00:49:46
things quite as well but I was wasn't
00:49:49
that great before the stroke. So you
00:49:52
know
00:49:54
>> so I'm not quite sure whether it was
00:49:56
I'm I'm 52 and I've never had a head
00:49:58
knock in my life but I've I have trouble
00:50:00
remembering things as well. So a lot of
00:50:02
that Yeah. A lot of it comes down to
00:50:03
age. What would you say your like best
00:50:05
and worst experiences from your four
00:50:08
years as an All Black?
00:50:12
>> Best and worst. The best would
00:50:14
definitely be the the very first test
00:50:16
against the French down in Christ Church
00:50:19
without a doubt. You know, you'll always
00:50:21
remember your first one and especially
00:50:23
against, you know, one of my heroes was
00:50:25
>> Serge Blanco. And in 1981, I was
00:50:30
um I'd left I'd left uh school. Um I was
00:50:36
playing for Northshore Rugby and I got
00:50:37
an opportunity. Um one of the players
00:50:40
had married a French girl and he came to
00:50:43
training one day and said, "I need a 10
00:50:45
and a seven to come to a little French
00:50:48
rugby club um to play for a season." And
00:50:52
I'm like, "Uh, is it free?" because I
00:50:55
got no money. And he goes, "Yeah, yeah,
00:50:58
they'll pay for your F here and they'll
00:50:59
give you a a job." So I ended up going
00:51:02
over there, but it was a ski resort in
00:51:04
the Pyrenees Mountains
00:51:05
>> and it was beautiful. And and Serge
00:51:08
Blanco used to go there, you know. So
00:51:11
I'd met Serge Blanco in a cafe having a
00:51:14
few drinks cuz all of the guys I knew um
00:51:17
in the rugby team knew him because he
00:51:20
was, you know, in the winter he'd come
00:51:22
down there a fair bit.
00:51:24
Um, so I got to meet him there and and
00:51:26
and and you know, sort of like a like
00:51:30
meeting Buck Shelford again, you know,
00:51:32
going
00:51:34
you I got a po per of you in my in my
00:51:38
bedroom back in New Zealand, you know,
00:51:40
and so then to be playing my first game
00:51:43
in the All Blacks when he's getting
00:51:45
towards the end of his career um was was
00:51:50
amazing, you know, it was really good.
00:51:53
very very uh excited to do that
00:51:56
>> and also a little scared because you
00:51:58
know my hero I've watched him and he's
00:52:00
scored tries from behind his own post
00:52:03
you know and scored tries and uh and
00:52:07
I've got a I've got a you know
00:52:09
potentially I could be the last line of
00:52:11
defense and he's in front of me. I'm
00:52:13
like then I gave myself a slap and said
00:52:16
mate don't think negative like that
00:52:18
you're going to beat these fellas in
00:52:19
here. So we ended up winning.
00:52:21
>> So yeah. Yeah. What about um worst
00:52:23
memories?
00:52:26
>> Worst memories? Just the injuries I've
00:52:29
I've of I've I've had over the years. Um
00:52:32
had a couple of uh well, they're not
00:52:35
serious, but they they hold you back a
00:52:37
little bit, you know, like just little
00:52:40
um cartilage trims
00:52:43
and those sorts of things in your knees.
00:52:45
Um missing my the birth of a couple of
00:52:48
the kids as well. In fact, Foxy and I
00:52:52
were on going on a tour when
00:52:56
um his wife was pregnant and and mine
00:53:00
was pregnant and we both stayed back and
00:53:03
we missed going to Canada. We never been
00:53:06
to Canada. Come on, babe. Hurry up. Can
00:53:08
you have this baby? Anyway, we So, we
00:53:12
missed out on that, but uh um we had to
00:53:15
leave anyway because the babies didn't
00:53:18
come
00:53:19
>> until we left. So, but but yeah, missing
00:53:21
missing some of the best of the kids is
00:53:24
is is is
00:53:27
probably one of them.
00:53:29
>> That's that's really powerful.
00:53:31
>> Yeah,
00:53:34
>> not that I'm mate. Well,
00:53:37
I I have did watch one of them and I
00:53:40
nearly [ __ ] eggs were going like
00:53:46
I'm going, "Oh [ __ ] take a seat." you
00:53:49
know.
00:53:50
>> No, but you you can't be beating
00:53:51
yourself too much about that because it
00:53:52
was just how it was at the time. E like
00:53:54
it was
00:53:54
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's just the way it was
00:53:56
back in those days. So,
00:53:58
>> so yeah.
00:53:59
>> I mean, this is this is a time where
00:54:00
Yeah. Yeah. people Yeah. Michael Jones
00:54:04
I got another worst one. Yeah. was was
00:54:07
actually playing um we played a team
00:54:10
called Tukerman in the New Zealand Moldi
00:54:12
team in Argentina and they they're at
00:54:15
the bottom of the Andes Mountains and
00:54:18
they are renowned for fighting. And so
00:54:22
when we got there, they said, "Oh, this
00:54:24
team's just come back from a two-year
00:54:26
ban."
00:54:28
We went, "What for?" They said,
00:54:31
"Fighting." And we went, "Really?" Yes.
00:54:35
Anyway, we went out there, they kicked
00:54:38
off and all 15 of them came running in
00:54:42
and started a fight. Now, we had we had
00:54:45
uh Buck Shelfford, Hickory, um we had
00:54:48
the Frank Shelford, we had um the Brook
00:54:52
brothers, you know, we had Steve McDall,
00:54:55
we had a Borovich,
00:54:58
and they wanted to start a fight.
00:55:01
Well, we didn't want to, but we had no
00:55:04
choice.
00:55:05
And there was a fight for the whole
00:55:08
game. Like that. It was ridiculous.
00:55:10
There's one um one time when when you
00:55:15
sort of like a comedy show where I'm
00:55:16
chasing, you're chasing someone and they
00:55:18
stop, you stop. Come on. Come on. And
00:55:20
then they take off when you go to have a
00:55:22
go. And then it was just like it was
00:55:24
terrible. And then the the game was
00:55:26
called off five minutes before full
00:55:29
time.
00:55:30
because the crowd were getting wild and
00:55:32
and started throwing [ __ ] at us. So we
00:55:34
had to stand in the middle of the field
00:55:37
until they ran out of ammunition.
00:55:40
Then we had to walk to the sideline
00:55:42
together in a line and there was there
00:55:46
was a cage but the cage only went 10 m
00:55:50
and the sorry 5 m and the gap to get
00:55:54
under there was 10 m. So we had 5 meters
00:55:57
of walking through like a corridor of
00:55:59
angry locals who were hitting us with
00:56:02
umbrellas and all sorts of [ __ ] So that
00:56:04
was the worst the worst scariest um
00:56:08
experience we've had. We were under the
00:56:11
under the grand stand and we were
00:56:13
looking for [ __ ] like weapons. Like
00:56:16
there was some guys on barbecues. We
00:56:18
were taking their their some forks or
00:56:21
freaking ripping some bits of wood off
00:56:23
the freaking side of whatever. I don't
00:56:25
know. And and just so we had something
00:56:27
cuz we we had to walk another 30 m out
00:56:30
the back to the changing rooms and we're
00:56:33
thinking, man, we're going to die, you
00:56:35
know, like we are seriously going to
00:56:37
die. And the police had got around the
00:56:40
back and and blocked it all off. So, we
00:56:43
had to grab our bags and jump straight
00:56:45
in the in the bus and go back to the
00:56:48
hotel, which was
00:56:51
we jumped in the bus and we were going,
00:56:53
"Thank God the cops were in there
00:56:55
saying, "Boys, just put your heads down.
00:56:57
Don't look." And and we'll get back to
00:57:00
the hotel. You don't tell a bus full of
00:57:02
moldies. Don't look out the window. Must
00:57:05
we're out the window.
00:57:08
[ __ ] you, too. and they're banging on
00:57:10
the side of the bus and we're saying
00:57:13
driver, hurry up,
00:57:15
run them over if they're in the way, you
00:57:17
know, like so and then we were told not
00:57:20
to go out that night
00:57:21
>> because you might not be found. So So no
00:57:24
one went out. No one.
00:57:26
>> Unbelievable. Was the team banned again
00:57:28
after that?
00:57:29
>> Um I don't know. We don't care. We hope
00:57:30
so. Um they Yeah. I mean I I remember
00:57:34
someone sent me a little clip of it. So
00:57:36
I I went online to have a look and I saw
00:57:38
some of it and I was like man and then I
00:57:40
above it it had like a some other team
00:57:43
might have been South Africa or
00:57:44
something. So I pushed that and they're
00:57:47
fighting too. I'm like geez. So it
00:57:50
wasn't just us. They just they are just
00:57:53
crazy. So that was scary that
00:57:55
>> Oh. So there's some video footage that
00:57:56
exists. I might have to try and hunt
00:57:58
that out.
00:57:58
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:59
>> So then um in uh Oh yeah, one more
00:58:02
question before we move on to your your
00:58:03
league stuff which is like the second
00:58:04
part of the Frenobotica story. So you
00:58:06
did you he was a teammate of yours, but
00:58:08
did you ever play against the Iceman,
00:58:10
Michael Jones?
00:58:11
>> What was he like to play against?
00:58:12
>> Um I think I might have played against
00:58:14
him. Yeah, I did. When North Harbor in a
00:58:16
in a Shield challenge? Um he was and I
00:58:20
couldn't get away from him. Like I could
00:58:22
I just had to shovel the ball on and get
00:58:26
out of the way cuz I could see him come
00:58:29
flying at me. And um he sort of knew
00:58:32
where to where to go, where I would was
00:58:36
potentially going to try and go. And
00:58:38
because he was so quick as well, he was
00:58:40
he was just on top of you. So you didn't
00:58:42
have a choice. You only had one choice,
00:58:44
and that's either pass it or I'm going
00:58:46
to I'm going to get you. And which I
00:58:49
didn't chance my arm against him.
00:58:51
>> What made him so good?
00:58:52
>> I don't know. It just sometimes you just
00:58:54
got you're you are so talented and you
00:58:57
have this X factor and you can't quite
00:59:00
put your finger on it, but he's he's
00:59:03
he's full of it, you know. He's got a X
00:59:06
factor oozing out of him. And
00:59:09
um obviously he's he was fit, he had
00:59:12
size, he was an athlete, a real athlete.
00:59:15
Um and yeah, and just toughest opponent
00:59:20
to
00:59:23
to play against like Yeah. toughest
00:59:26
opponent to play against you
00:59:27
>> and so nice and humble off the field as
00:59:29
well.
00:59:29
>> I know. So quiet.
00:59:31
>> It's like it's like an Inger as well,
00:59:33
you know? They're all They're all And
00:59:34
they're all so quiet and humble and
00:59:37
really nice and then you get him on the
00:59:39
field,
00:59:42
>> I've had Kev Mama on the podcast. Same
00:59:45
sort of thing.
00:59:46
>> Same sort of thing. like very quiet,
00:59:48
humble, everyone's favorite player, but
00:59:50
a complete savage on the field.
00:59:52
>> Yeah, you have sort of a you have your
00:59:55
your alter ego, you know,
00:59:56
>> and
00:59:58
I suppose you have well once you go on
01:00:00
into battle, then you have to really.
01:00:02
>> So,
01:00:03
>> yeah. So, 1990 um was the year you
01:00:06
switched to league after four years and
01:00:08
seven tests as an all black. Was was
01:00:10
that a tough decision? Was it was it
01:00:12
based around money or was it frustration
01:00:14
of not getting enough game time? What
01:00:16
was it?
01:00:17
>> Um, it was based around money really and
01:00:20
and the fact that I I I couldn't sit
01:00:24
again having that negative attitude
01:00:26
towards kicking. I couldn't see myself
01:00:28
beating Foxy. So, I didn't want to I'd
01:00:31
had enough of sitting on the bench. I
01:00:33
had enough of of the, you know, it used
01:00:36
to cost me I got 20 I got 27 or 20
01:00:40
something dollars um a a week for
01:00:44
freaking incidentals um with the All
01:00:46
Blacks cost me 100 bucks to pay for my
01:00:49
the career driver,
01:00:52
>> a relief driver.
01:00:53
>> A relief driver, you know. I'm like,
01:00:54
mate, this is
01:00:56
>> Yeah. So I ended I yeah I basically I I
01:01:00
said well it's time for me to find
01:01:03
something else
01:01:04
>> and it was you know and it was random.
01:01:06
It was I remember I was um we just
01:01:09
finished the all black tour of of the UK
01:01:12
and we were stuck in London for a couple
01:01:15
two or three days and I couldn't be
01:01:17
bothered having a look around. Well, I
01:01:19
was going to look around London. Then I
01:01:21
just got a random phone call from the
01:01:23
director of Wagan Rugby League, you
01:01:25
know, said, "Mate, do you want to come
01:01:26
and have a look at playing for us?"
01:01:30
Um, and I said, "Oh, mate." Well, first
01:01:34
of all, he said, "Do you know much about
01:01:35
Wigan?" I said, "Oh, no. I think you're
01:01:37
red and white or something. I think I
01:01:39
might have seen you on on TV playing
01:01:42
Hulk Hulk or something." And uh he said,
01:01:46
"Do you want to come up?" I said, "Oh,
01:01:49
mate." Cuz what I thought, "Oh, he wants
01:01:52
me to go up and have a look up there.
01:01:54
He's going to take me out to a nice
01:01:55
restaurant, champagne,
01:01:58
and then ask me if I want to sign, and
01:02:00
I'll say no." But I'll take the trip up
01:02:02
there. I haven't been up there. I'll
01:02:03
have some champagne, some nice food, and
01:02:05
then say no. How hard can that be? And I
01:02:08
got nothing else to do. So, I jumped in
01:02:10
a train, went up there. Got there, it
01:02:12
was it was freezing cold. There was like
01:02:15
a misty rain which you you could see
01:02:18
about 20 feet in front of you and I um I
01:02:22
was looking at it going man what a
01:02:24
miserable hole. You can't even see the
01:02:26
place. Anyway, he didn't even pick me up
01:02:28
but he he said just jump in a cab. I'll
01:02:31
sort out when you get here. Give him the
01:02:33
the address. So I had the address. I
01:02:35
gave it to him and um he said you sure
01:02:39
is that where you want to go? I said
01:02:41
yeah. Oh okay. Anyway, 10 minutes later,
01:02:44
we pull up outside this restaurant. Big
01:02:46
red and white sign.
01:02:49
Kentucky Fried Chicken. I went
01:02:53
Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cheap
01:02:56
bastard.
01:02:58
Anyway,
01:02:59
I went in there. Well, his his work was
01:03:01
beside it, but we we went into KFC and
01:03:05
um we sat down there and uh he must have
01:03:08
got some inside information that KFC was
01:03:10
my favorite food. Um cuz I walked out of
01:03:14
there having signed the contract for
01:03:15
three years scratching my head going,
01:03:17
"Man, what just happened?"
01:03:20
>> How How much was it?
01:03:22
>> How much was it?
01:03:22
>> Yeah. No, not not the KFC, the the
01:03:25
contract.
01:03:25
>> Oh, it was it in my eyes, I thought it
01:03:28
was really good cuz I hadn't seen that
01:03:29
much money before in in one go. And um
01:03:33
unfortunately
01:03:35
over time, I figured out that that
01:03:37
wasn't that much compared to everyone
01:03:38
else. I mean, damn, I just I just got I
01:03:42
just got I just got hammered for uh um
01:03:45
for 3 years. I got to wait three years
01:03:47
now. So,
01:03:48
>> um so it was not as much as the rest of
01:03:51
them, that's for sure. I I mean the
01:03:53
second contract was a lot better. A lot
01:03:55
better. But
01:03:56
>> um but I didn't mind because
01:03:59
I it was more than I I'd got before. So
01:04:02
So I was happy. Um yeah.
01:04:04
>> And was it a controversial thing at the
01:04:06
time? Like I feel like it's fairly
01:04:08
common now for people to switch codes
01:04:10
like whether it's
01:04:11
>> Benji Marshall or RTS or whoever. But at
01:04:14
the time it was
01:04:15
>> like was it seen as like a controversial
01:04:17
sort of thing?
01:04:18
>> It was but little did we know there was
01:04:21
five of us
01:04:23
thinking we were the first one
01:04:25
>> you know and we hadn't it hadn't been
01:04:27
leaked out yet. So I think um I don't
01:04:31
know was it was it Reggie or might have
01:04:35
been Reggie or John Shusta? One of them
01:04:38
theirs leaked before mine. So I was like
01:04:42
I'm not first.
01:04:44
>> They took the heat.
01:04:46
>> They took the heat. So yeah. So then the
01:04:48
end there was you know there's a few of
01:04:50
us who ended up ended up leaving. I
01:04:52
think there's myself.
01:04:53
>> Oh John Gallagher ended up going to
01:04:55
Leeds.
01:04:57
Um John Schustster I think he went to
01:05:00
the Knights I think. Um
01:05:04
there's uh there's a few others as well
01:05:07
who went um so um so it was it wasn't
01:05:13
that hard to make that decision.
01:05:16
>> Seems like a no-brainer to me but but it
01:05:19
you got to Yeah. And it's I mean it's
01:05:21
very common now. You even have guys like
01:05:23
whether it's Richie Monga or whoever
01:05:25
doing sbaticals in Japan, but at the
01:05:27
time, yeah, it was it was sort of a big
01:05:28
deal. You were almost seen as disloyal
01:05:30
in a way, weren't you?
01:05:31
>> Yeah. I mean, these days you can bounce
01:05:33
from one to the other quite easily. And
01:05:35
and it's great. And it's so, you know,
01:05:36
and so they should,
01:05:38
>> you know, both professionals just like a
01:05:40
job.
01:05:41
>> So, you should be able to bounce from
01:05:42
one to the other without any problems,
01:05:44
you know.
01:05:45
>> Were you were you good with your money?
01:05:46
Like, did anyone teach you about
01:05:48
financial literacy or anything?
01:05:49
>> Not not not a lot. No. And you know,
01:05:53
made a couple of
01:05:55
bad financial
01:05:57
um decisions uh
01:05:59
>> like buying dumb [ __ ] or just bad
01:06:01
investments.
01:06:01
>> In a couple of investments that were
01:06:04
were were I thought were good. a
01:06:08
restaurant
01:06:10
a restaurant motel in with my uh with my
01:06:15
uncle in Tonga which I thought was great
01:06:18
but not
01:06:20
>> and um Lif a company called Lifestyle
01:06:24
Sports um
01:06:27
put some money into that as well
01:06:28
>> and it
01:06:29
>> Yeah, a lot of people I remember
01:06:30
Lifestyle Sport that was like a big
01:06:31
chain maybe before Rebel.
01:06:33
>> Yeah, it was a big It was a chain then.
01:06:35
Yeah. Yeah. And and so we we
01:06:39
the guys who who started it, they ended
01:06:42
up um wanting to buy some of the
01:06:44
franchises back. And so a few of us put
01:06:47
some money in to help with that. And we
01:06:51
we ended up having a a flagship shop
01:06:54
right beside McDonald's in Queen Street.
01:06:56
And it was the first
01:06:58
one of the first shops that had back
01:07:01
wall just all big big big screen
01:07:04
>> TV you know with sport on. So but yeah
01:07:07
one thing and another happened and and
01:07:09
and both of those businesses were just
01:07:12
has some money and and not really
01:07:16
involved in it. So, so yeah, there was
01:07:19
some bad decisions, but you know,
01:07:23
>> what was the the five years in Wigan?
01:07:24
What were they like? You were a big deal
01:07:25
over there. Did you Did your ego ever
01:07:27
get out of control?
01:07:28
>> Um, never. Never. Um, there was too many
01:07:32
superstars in that team. Um, and if
01:07:34
anyone tried to put their head above the
01:07:36
rest of us,
01:07:38
>> everyone else would just all the senior
01:07:40
players would just have them. M
01:07:42
>> Martin the Fire turned up one day and um
01:07:45
you know he was a new signing for us and
01:07:48
I remember he uh he was walking around
01:07:51
and like he was you know he was a man
01:07:54
and we got some new drinks and all that
01:07:58
that which we never got before because
01:08:00
he and we there well because he was
01:08:02
there and so he had a uh he had an
01:08:05
interview after training and when he was
01:08:08
in the shower they got the the boys the
01:08:10
senior boys got all his I threw them in
01:08:12
the in the drink container. He said,
01:08:15
"Mate, don't you think you're bigger
01:08:18
than the rest of us? Cuz you ain't,
01:08:20
buddy." Oh, you didn't have to put my
01:08:22
clothes in. But yeah, and he and he was
01:08:24
fine after that.
01:08:26
>> Just team first, eh?
01:08:27
>> But team first, mate. Yeah. So, um Yeah.
01:08:31
So, that was that. Yeah.
01:08:34
>> Where did you feel um more at home? Did
01:08:38
you have a favorite team like what like
01:08:39
between the Kiwis and the All Blacks?
01:08:44
What was the difference between those
01:08:45
two teams?
01:08:48
>> You're in a rare position. There's not
01:08:49
many people that can answer that, right?
01:08:50
Not many people that play.
01:08:51
>> There's a few. There's a few. Um
01:08:54
League boys, I mean, we all have we all
01:08:57
like a drink. I think the league back in
01:09:00
those days the league boys probably
01:09:02
drank a bit more than the the Old
01:09:04
Blacks. I
01:09:05
>> think Lion Red was the key sponsor,
01:09:06
wasn't it?
01:09:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. It's the same
01:09:08
theme.
01:09:10
Low and red and Steiny. Same same
01:09:13
company. Uh yeah, it was um the the the
01:09:17
differences were although we were
01:09:20
amateur, we were probably the All Blacks
01:09:22
were probably um
01:09:25
seen more professional I think in as an
01:09:28
organization
01:09:29
>> probably because it was it had been so
01:09:31
for so long
01:09:32
>> and our national sport
01:09:34
>> and our national sport etc. for his
01:09:36
league. Well, like back in those days,
01:09:38
there was there was just the win uh they
01:09:41
had the Winfield Cup over in Aussie, but
01:09:43
we never had a a team in that
01:09:45
competition. It was just our own local
01:09:48
um league. So, um so that yeah, that
01:09:52
that was main the main thing, the
01:09:54
professionalism
01:09:56
>> and so was a bit bit of an eye opener,
01:09:59
but I mean I loved and enjoyed playing
01:10:02
for the Kiwis. Um, again, we played when
01:10:05
we beat the Australians in Melbourne,
01:10:07
that was a highlight of of of my career
01:10:11
in the in the Kiwi jersey.
01:10:13
>> Yeah. Who was in that team?
01:10:15
>> [ __ ]
01:10:17
McCracken was in there.
01:10:19
>> Sean Hoppy.
01:10:20
>> Um, yeah, I think he was. Yeah. Mate,
01:10:23
honestly,
01:10:24
>> Brent Todd, Reggie.
01:10:26
>> No, Reggie wasn't.
01:10:27
>> Is that later? Richie was he honestly
01:10:31
I'm I'm you've I'm wrecked my brain now.
01:10:34
Richie Blackmore. Um um what's his name?
01:10:40
>> One of the some of the forwards I
01:10:42
honestly
01:10:44
pass.
01:10:45
>> Um yeah.
01:10:47
>> I'll blame I'll blame the stroke.
01:10:51
>> Well, there's like a lot of teams over a
01:10:53
lot of years. Oh yeah. You mentioned
01:10:55
Winfield Cup before. So, Winfield Cup,
01:10:57
that's pretty much like the NRL as we
01:10:59
know it now.
01:11:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:01
>> I don't even know that might have been
01:11:02
that might have been. Yeah. Yeah. It
01:11:04
was. Yeah. Sure.
01:11:05
>> It's crazy. That's another another crazy
01:11:07
We talk about Lion Red and Steiner like
01:11:08
Yeah. tobacco company sponsoring.
01:11:11
>> So, you you you played um you weren't
01:11:13
there for the first game, but you played
01:11:14
um for the Warriors in 1995, their very
01:11:17
first the debut season.
01:11:19
>> Yeah. How was how was that jumping into
01:11:20
that environment for the first year of
01:11:22
the Warriors?
01:11:22
>> Yeah, it was good. I I came a little bit
01:11:24
later because of I
01:11:26
>> I was just finishing off the season over
01:11:29
in um over in the UK and well was
01:11:32
amazing. I mean obviously the hype, the
01:11:35
crowds um the players that we had in
01:11:39
that team um but I only lasted
01:11:43
four games and then I broke my leg.
01:11:47
So that was uh very short and sharp. Um
01:11:50
and and put me in a little bit of a of a
01:11:54
bind because I was I was going to go
01:11:57
back to like I was going to play that
01:11:59
first year and then probably go back to
01:12:00
Wigan. Um and I I hadn't signed the
01:12:06
contract. I asked for a little bit bit
01:12:08
more money. Um and they said yes, the
01:12:12
contract will come on. And this was on a
01:12:14
Friday.
01:12:15
the contract will be there on Monday and
01:12:17
then I broke my leg in the weekend. So
01:12:20
was uh h thanks but we don't need you
01:12:23
anymore.
01:12:25
So I had to go back. I was had to head
01:12:28
back because of the we still had a house
01:12:30
there and um I was um
01:12:34
I was
01:12:36
didn't have a club. my insurance had run
01:12:39
out while I was over here and I didn't
01:12:41
realize and
01:12:44
um so I ended up going to
01:12:48
Castleford in Yorkshire and and that cuz
01:12:51
they were the only ones who would buy me
01:12:53
with a broken leg basically.
01:12:56
So I just I just did a lot of rehab for
01:12:59
six months and then six six months to
01:13:03
the day I was back playing. So,
01:13:06
>> but it took a lot of lot of training and
01:13:08
and rehabbing and all that sort of
01:13:11
stuff.
01:13:11
>> How's how's your mental health through
01:13:13
through the stuff going on?
01:13:15
>> Oh, yeah. It's all right.
01:13:16
>> Yeah.
01:13:16
>> It um sometimes it gets me down a bit,
01:13:19
>> but you know,
01:13:21
um I'm I'm okay.
01:13:23
>> Yeah.
01:13:24
>> Oh, yeah.
01:13:25
>> It must be Yeah. I can't imagine how
01:13:27
like stressful and um just the anxiety
01:13:29
at the time.
01:13:31
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. was definitely and and
01:13:33
you know um my partners was very good
01:13:37
and still is. So,
01:13:40
>> so, um, yeah,
01:13:43
>> you looking back on your career, when
01:13:44
when do you think you were happiest?
01:13:50
>> I'm always playing for the All Blacks, I
01:13:53
was happy. Um, you go through different
01:13:56
stages in your life when you're starting
01:13:58
rugby, you have kids while you're
01:14:00
playing rugby, you move to another
01:14:03
country while you're playing rugby or
01:14:05
rugby league. Um, and and and
01:14:08
all through those times you're happy
01:14:11
where you are at at the m at the time
01:14:14
you know like I loved Wigan for example
01:14:17
Wigan's a [ __ ] hole like it's a [ __ ]
01:14:19
hole bro um but the the the people are
01:14:24
amazing friendly
01:14:29
huge supporters last time I went back
01:14:32
there for example last year that there
01:14:34
were people coming up asking for auto uh
01:14:36
for to sign a photo and then these old
01:14:40
these older ladies and then they got
01:14:41
another photo of me and them when they
01:14:44
were young
01:14:45
>> and they've still got them. It's like
01:14:47
I'm like, "Man, have you
01:14:49
>> you got guy's got nothing else or
01:14:51
nothing better to I didn't say that, but
01:14:53
I'm going like I'm thinking, man, you
01:14:56
you still got that photo of you and me
01:14:58
and you want another one?" And I'm like,
01:15:01
I mean, yeah, no problem. But I'm like,
01:15:03
man,
01:15:04
thanks. Thanks for remembering. You
01:15:06
know,
01:15:06
>> that's cool though, that you've had that
01:15:08
sort of impact on people.
01:15:10
>> Um, yeah, it is. It is great. It is
01:15:13
great. And you know it's
01:15:15
uh it's Wigan's in around all the
01:15:17
football teams but it's in that area.
01:15:20
Wigan is strong. The club even the
01:15:23
amateur club scene is pretty strong
01:15:26
there. They their setup is is is better
01:15:29
than I think one of the best I've seen.
01:15:32
There's nowhere in New Zealand who has a
01:15:34
setup better than them.
01:15:35
>> Wow.
01:15:36
>> You know.
01:15:37
>> So yeah, they've got they got things
01:15:40
happening. So I loved it there. But I
01:15:41
loved it there because I knew I was
01:15:43
always coming back to New Zealand.
01:15:45
>> Then I went to Wales to Lenley. I really
01:15:50
liked it down there too. They were
01:15:51
fanatical. They're crazy fanatical,
01:15:54
especially beating the All Blacks once
01:15:57
in this
01:15:59
the score still stays up on the board in
01:16:02
between games, you know. Like you
01:16:06
>> get over it.
01:16:07
>> Get over it, you know. So everywhere I I
01:16:09
played in Italy um and lived in Italy
01:16:12
for a couple of years. Me and Mike
01:16:13
Brewer played there. So again, love that
01:16:16
little town and and everywhere you go,
01:16:20
we you you get a lot of good close
01:16:22
friends. You know, you don't see them
01:16:23
very often, but you know, I went back to
01:16:25
Wigan and and and bumped in some of the
01:16:28
boys and and it was like like we're all
01:16:31
a bit older, but still the same sort of
01:16:33
[ __ ] banter and all that sort of
01:16:35
stuff, you know?
01:16:38
Do do you have like um like a like a
01:16:40
like a games room or a man cave or an
01:16:42
office at home? Like have you got any
01:16:44
memorabilia? You got you got anything
01:16:47
hanging up?
01:16:48
>> No, I did a little um um program on um
01:16:52
on on
01:16:54
um it's called Pathfinders and part of
01:16:56
that was to show some of the jerseys
01:16:58
that I had and that was the first time
01:17:01
I'd open that thing for a long time. So
01:17:04
no, the answer is no. It's in a They're
01:17:07
in big sto little storage bins, you
01:17:09
know,
01:17:10
>> like system containers or something.
01:17:11
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're about that big
01:17:13
and and they're full of of memorabilia
01:17:16
and all that. I don't I have never put
01:17:18
them up in a in a property. Um but I
01:17:22
have cuz my granddaughter was saw it and
01:17:25
I had the box down there with the
01:17:27
jerseys. She had a quick look through it
01:17:29
and saw one of the jerseys and tried to
01:17:31
take four or five of them and I said,
01:17:33
"You can't take those." And she goes,
01:17:35
"Yeah, but we have to go and buy those.
01:17:38
We have and they're expensive, those
01:17:40
rugby jerseys." And I'm like, "Oh,
01:17:43
they're getting they're back in again,
01:17:44
you know, the old school." And that's
01:17:46
and they're real good material and thick
01:17:49
and warm. And so I ended up giving her
01:17:52
the Argentinian jersey. Wow.
01:17:53
>> But she wanted my old black jerseys. I'm
01:17:55
thinking, "You're not No, no, no. Go
01:17:59
away."
01:18:00
>> So even though they're not on display,
01:18:01
they they clearly mean something to you.
01:18:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. They're there. And I've
01:18:04
actually just I I got some of them out.
01:18:06
I had to wash them a couple of times. Um
01:18:09
hang them out in the fresh air and and
01:18:10
and and
01:18:12
now I start wearing them over the
01:18:13
winter. I've been wearing
01:18:15
>> actually Yeah, I wear the um I got the
01:18:17
the the the
01:18:20
English bars, black and white top, but I
01:18:24
got a French one. I've been wearing
01:18:26
French bars. One, I got a heap of them.
01:18:30
I'm going, man, I should have started
01:18:31
wearing couple of them to be fair. A
01:18:33
couple of them I can't fit.
01:18:38
>> Got imagine turning up to an open home
01:18:40
in Foasic there wearing like an old
01:18:42
rugby jersey.
01:18:43
>> Oh yeah. Well, I'd get dressed up a bit
01:18:45
more.
01:18:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. You You've got no um Yeah,
01:18:48
they clearly mean a lot to you. The fact
01:18:49
that you've still got them in the
01:18:50
they've been stored carefully, but you
01:18:52
got no interest in displaying them or
01:18:55
>> No, I mean the house is our house is we
01:18:58
got a nice house, but it's not enough
01:19:00
room to Yeah. Like it would mean you'd
01:19:03
have you need I need I would need a
01:19:05
bigger room than this, you know.
01:19:08
>> It's it's not Yeah, I mean I might at
01:19:11
some stage, but at the moment they don't
01:19:14
want to be sitting in there all the time
01:19:16
because they'll just disappear.
01:19:19
>> But even if I give some away to the
01:19:20
grandkids, then at least they're getting
01:19:22
used, you know,
01:19:24
>> not not the all black.
01:19:25
>> Don't give them to the grandkids.
01:19:27
There's um there's an Instagram page
01:19:28
called Jersey Hunter and uh I reckon you
01:19:30
could get top dollar at Jersey Hunter.
01:19:35
>> I'll write that down.
01:19:37
>> Well, otherwise you give them to the
01:19:38
grandkids and they'll they'll be giving
01:19:39
them to Jersey Hunter.
01:19:40
>> Yeah, I'll be I'll I'll be online.
01:19:42
>> Hey.
01:19:43
>> Hey, that's mine.
01:19:44
>> That's mine. Check.
01:19:46
>> How many did you get like one all black
01:19:48
jersey per season or?
01:19:50
>> Yeah, generally per game.
01:19:52
>> Per game. Yeah, even back then.
01:19:53
>> Yeah. Um well not per maybe per series
01:19:57
you used to get them and they used to
01:19:59
have big Stein logo things on them. Um
01:20:02
so I have got a framed one of the World
01:20:05
Cup one. So we all got it was great.
01:20:09
>> We all ended up getting one of those
01:20:11
that and the second time we won the
01:20:13
World Cup which was
01:20:15
>> 2011.
01:20:16
>> Yeah. 2011. So
01:20:19
>> fully framed with everybody's signature
01:20:22
on there.
01:20:23
Um, so that was that was good. It was
01:20:27
nice of them to do that.
01:20:30
>> That's under the bed.
01:20:33
>> It's m It's about the second half the
01:20:36
size of that window over there, mate.
01:20:39
>> It's funny. Like when whenever I have um
01:20:41
like ex you know sports people on it, I
01:20:43
I like to ask them that because
01:20:44
everyone's got like a different sort of
01:20:45
answer. Like when I when I had Christian
01:20:46
Cullen on, he um he had his stored in
01:20:49
boxes in the attic and a couple of years
01:20:51
ago he was like, "What am I going to do
01:20:52
with them?" So now the kids wear them to
01:20:54
school and they just wear them around.
01:20:56
>> There's everyone has like a different
01:20:58
relationship, I guess, with their with
01:21:00
their jerseys.
01:21:02
>> Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, they
01:21:04
were
01:21:05
it was at some point sentimental, and
01:21:07
you had all these big grand ideas of
01:21:09
putting them up somewhere, etc. Uh but
01:21:12
there's so many of them. I mean, and
01:21:15
I've lost heaps of them.
01:21:17
>> Like, yeah, the problem back in the day
01:21:19
is you you go, "Oh, yeah. Someone who
01:21:22
owns a pub. Yeah, I'll give you that
01:21:24
one." You know, you can have that one.
01:21:27
And now, um, you're like, "Man, that pub
01:21:30
isn't there anymore. I wonder what
01:21:32
happened to my my jersey." Or you forget
01:21:34
you forget who you gave them to, you
01:21:36
know? Um, I've got somebody found one up
01:21:41
north and the guy's selling the pub. Oh,
01:21:44
up in Fare. I gave them a uh I gave them
01:21:48
a uh I gave them a jersey and he's
01:21:52
selling it and one of my mates
01:21:54
was up there and he they got talking
01:21:58
about it and he's going to send it back
01:22:00
down to me. I was like, that's the first
01:22:03
time that's happened.
01:22:04
>> How good.
01:22:04
>> So, yeah. So that's that's nice of it.
01:22:07
>> Um, what about leg? Do is legacy
01:22:09
something you think about much? Like
01:22:11
when when people talk about Freno
01:22:12
Bodica, what would you like them to say?
01:22:15
>> Um, oh mate, I got just that he was a a
01:22:19
good running rug uh running player.
01:22:23
Um, I'm a nice guy,
01:22:26
>> you know, that's that like just that's
01:22:29
that's all that I would want them to
01:22:31
think. like in their mind they think,
01:22:34
"Oh, running and scoring tries and
01:22:38
whatever." So that's that's all really
01:22:41
>> nothing nothing any bigger than that.
01:22:44
>> That second part's really cool. I think
01:22:46
that that's way more important. Eh,
01:22:48
>> oh yeah, exactly. Um um how you are off
01:22:52
the field um and and how you are to
01:22:55
other people is more important.
01:22:58
>> Yeah. Are you a nice guy? Like are you
01:23:00
someone you'd want to have a beer with?
01:23:02
>> Yep. I'm definitely a nice guy.
01:23:04
>> I doesn't think so.
01:23:06
>> No, no, he doesn't. I don't mind, you
01:23:08
know, I don't mind talking to anybody
01:23:09
really. Like if someone is is polite
01:23:12
enough to or wants to come and say hello
01:23:15
to you than that. I don't have a problem
01:23:16
with it. Um
01:23:18
>> obviously some people
01:23:20
just go on and on and on and you get
01:23:22
sick of that. But instead of being
01:23:25
telling him to shut the hell up, you
01:23:27
just go, "Mate,
01:23:29
love talking, but I've got to get over
01:23:31
here."
01:23:31
>> And you just do it politely, you know?
01:23:34
>> Yeah.
01:23:34
>> As opposed to
01:23:36
>> Yeah. You must find it especially
01:23:37
difficult in those drinking
01:23:38
environments, I suppose, where mainly
01:23:40
dudes of a certain age just want to talk
01:23:42
about
01:23:42
>> Yeah. the glory days.
01:23:44
>> Yeah. Well, there are. Yeah. Uh, like I
01:23:46
say, I give them a couple of minutes or
01:23:48
if if I'm in no rush to do anything,
01:23:50
then I don't have a problem with sitting
01:23:52
there talking [ __ ] for a while.
01:23:55
>> Yeah.
01:23:56
>> Cuz it's I mean, it's it's
01:23:58
>> they they've got good memories of it.
01:24:00
And you don't want to be an [ __ ] and
01:24:02
>> Yeah.
01:24:02
>> The last memory they have of you is
01:24:04
being a dick,
01:24:05
>> you know?
01:24:06
>> Well, it's a big moment for them, I
01:24:07
guess.
01:24:08
>> Yeah.
01:24:09
>> Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, they they
01:24:12
a lot of people out there have been
01:24:14
following
01:24:15
different rugby players, league players,
01:24:18
you know, all their lives and and
01:24:20
sometimes they've never met one or or
01:24:24
one of their favorites or or
01:24:27
>> someone who just brings back a memory.
01:24:29
So, you know, you got to
01:24:31
>> got to give them their um
01:24:34
little bit of time.
01:24:36
>> Oh. Oh, yeah. How was that adjustment to
01:24:39
um you know being a player for such a
01:24:41
big part of your life and at such a high
01:24:42
level to suddenly it not being there
01:24:44
anymore? Was that a hard transition for
01:24:46
you? Was it hard navigating?
01:24:48
>> It was pretty tough. Yeah, it was pretty
01:24:50
tough and uh
01:24:54
I ended up Yeah. having a a marriage
01:24:57
breakup at the same at the same time. So
01:25:01
yeah, got it was pretty tough for a few
01:25:02
years, you know, and then getting into
01:25:04
the workforce again was pretty tough. I
01:25:06
think these days they are
01:25:10
they have the background staff and all
01:25:13
that sort of stuff and other people to
01:25:15
help the younger guys through all that
01:25:18
and and um financial advice
01:25:23
etc. Um that's around a lot more than it
01:25:26
was back in my day.
01:25:27
>> So yeah,
01:25:29
>> you what um yeah you mentioned the
01:25:31
marriage break up there that that was
01:25:32
before your current partner who you've
01:25:34
been engaged to for 14 years. One day,
01:25:36
one day we're going to put a ring on it.
01:25:37
Um, but yeah. Do you think um yeah, part
01:25:40
of the demise of that marriage was just
01:25:42
your adjustment from being a player to
01:25:44
not being a player?
01:25:46
>> Oh, yeah. Look, it was a probably a
01:25:48
number of things. I was um we just built
01:25:51
a house in um out in Par and um
01:25:56
not too close to the prison, but just in
01:25:59
case you're wondering,
01:26:01
>> I believe the the sections right next
01:26:03
door are very affordable.
01:26:04
>> They're very affordable. Yeah, big
01:26:06
sights too.
01:26:07
>> Terrible neighbors.
01:26:07
>> Um um yeah, big sight too.
01:26:09
>> Um
01:26:10
>> so where were we going with that one?
01:26:12
>> Oh yeah, I just wondered if um like the
01:26:14
just from your your perspective like the
01:26:16
the mental adjustment to going from this
01:26:18
exciting
01:26:19
>> exhilarating like technical life of
01:26:21
being a player at the top level to
01:26:23
>> suddenly just being a regular civilian
01:26:25
again. I wonder if that played played a
01:26:26
part in the demise of the marriage.
01:26:28
>> Yeah. No, no, that didn't. Um that was
01:26:30
my own that was my own fault. Um and and
01:26:32
we also um because of the age of the
01:26:35
kids, we brought them back to go to you
01:26:37
know to to to especially for the oldest
01:26:41
to go to college back in New Zealand,
01:26:44
not not overseas.
01:26:47
>> And so for that reason, I ended up going
01:26:51
to France by myself and then they would
01:26:53
come over twice a twice in the season.
01:26:57
So that was that was probably the worst
01:27:00
thing. M
01:27:02
>> yeah it's a big distance isn't it?
01:27:04
>> And that's how it started. So
01:27:06
>> yeah um what makes you feel most alive
01:27:10
these days?
01:27:12
>> Like I I I just wonder like
01:27:14
>> from the perspective of someone that's
01:27:16
never never done anything too exciting
01:27:17
in his life. Like I can't imagine the
01:27:19
exhilaration of like you know kicking
01:27:21
matchwinning points in front of 50,000
01:27:23
people. And I just wonder what what
01:27:25
brings you the same sort of happiness
01:27:26
after that stops
01:27:27
>> in the sporting field just paddling. Um
01:27:31
um otherwise just going down to our
01:27:35
local and and sitting in the sun having
01:27:37
a a rosé or a beer or or a wine or
01:27:42
something with the misses. Yeah, it's
01:27:44
good laugh.
01:27:46
>> I think that's an exclusive Fabotica.
01:27:48
He's a rosé man.
01:27:50
>> Actually, I I do I like in the summer I
01:27:52
like rosé. I'd much rather have bubbles,
01:27:55
but I'm a I'm a bubbles snob. So if it
01:27:59
ain't champagne then I ain't drinking
01:28:01
it.
01:28:02
>> Imagine imagine in the late ' 80s being
01:28:04
in the black changing room and passing
01:28:06
on the stone lager and waiting for a
01:28:07
bottle of rosé.
01:28:09
I didn't know what rose was back in
01:28:10
those days so it was all right, you
01:28:12
know.
01:28:13
>> Um so I feel like um in in your 60s it's
01:28:16
almost like um a reflective stage of
01:28:18
life in a way. Um what what are you
01:28:20
still working on as a man?
01:28:23
Um, like most men, um, communication,
01:28:26
um, with my partner, I really need to
01:28:29
work on that a lot more because, you
01:28:31
know, we sometimes we still just hold a
01:28:33
few things in that that we we should
01:28:35
probably get out. Um, and whether that's
01:28:38
through health, um, and trying to keep
01:28:41
that private
01:28:43
>> um, and not wanting to let anyone know
01:28:45
when when the best person to talk to is
01:28:47
your your partner.
01:28:49
>> So, yeah, I'm a I'm I'm not too good at
01:28:51
that. and and sharing information a bit
01:28:55
sooner than than the day before that
01:28:57
we're going to I forgot to tell you
01:29:02
where
01:29:03
we're meant to be here tomorrow.
01:29:06
>> I think um I think a lot of what you
01:29:08
talk about like it comes from a place of
01:29:10
love. It's like I don't want to burden
01:29:11
her with this like I don't I you know
01:29:13
but but really you're doing um the
01:29:15
relationship a disservice by not sharing
01:29:17
it. the relationship a disservice and if
01:29:19
it goes on too much and it it can spiral
01:29:22
down um and that's when when bad things
01:29:25
might start to happen to you. So um
01:29:28
mentally. So yeah um
01:29:32
yeah. So you just got to I've got and
01:29:34
I'm I'm I am hopeless and I just got to
01:29:37
get better at it, you know,
01:29:39
>> and um so that's really what I've I've
01:29:42
got to do. Um um yeah, but that's that's
01:29:47
what I like doing, just having a quiet
01:29:49
drink. And
01:29:50
>> yeah,
01:29:50
>> don't get me wrong, once a year or twice
01:29:52
a year, I don't mind going out with the
01:29:54
boys and having a
01:29:56
>> not so quiet,
01:29:57
>> but not not two days close beside each
01:29:59
other cuz it's a long recovery these
01:30:02
days.
01:30:03
>> Oh my god. Isn't it? Yeah. The 4-day
01:30:05
hangover. What the [ __ ] is that?
01:30:06
>> I know. I know. It's like [ __ ] I mean,
01:30:08
I get up and I jump on my bike, wind
01:30:11
trainer, and I just put a a jacket on
01:30:14
and just I can put the bike in the sun
01:30:17
and just pedal uh pedal pedal until I
01:30:20
can I start sweating
01:30:22
>> um and get some of the alcohol out, but
01:30:24
but it's Yeah, it's it's there's big
01:30:26
gaps in between there.
01:30:27
>> It seems like you got some really good
01:30:29
um male mates like and and old teammates
01:30:32
that you can um shoot the [ __ ] with. Um,
01:30:35
yeah. Are are you good with the
01:30:37
vulnerability piece with with malemates?
01:30:40
Like if if you're not feeling 100%. I
01:30:42
bring this up one of your one of your
01:30:44
teammates in the late 80s um and also in
01:30:46
the 90s actually at um the Warriors, Sir
01:30:49
John Kerwin, who has probably done more
01:30:51
for men's mental health in New Zealand
01:30:53
than anyone.
01:30:54
>> Yeah. Yeah, he definitely has. And um
01:30:57
>> game changer.
01:30:58
>> Yeah, it was. Especially
01:30:59
>> because most people would have looked at
01:31:01
him and gone, "Mate, this fell's
01:31:02
invincible. He's he's huge. He's a big
01:31:06
guy. He loves rugby. He's so good at it.
01:31:09
He's got his
01:31:10
>> good looking like
01:31:12
>> he's handsome,
01:31:13
>> good looking fell and he's got the the
01:31:16
world's his oyster, you know, and you
01:31:19
people would put him up here and and and
01:31:22
in reality and he was going through
01:31:25
challenges and issues and and you know
01:31:28
like back in those days he's exactly
01:31:30
right. It's like hard. It was the it the
01:31:34
only thing that came back when you said,
01:31:35
"Oh, mate, I've got this and that." Is
01:31:37
mate hard enough. Like what's wrong with
01:31:39
you?
01:31:40
>> Yeah. Stop being a [ __ ]
01:31:41
>> Yeah. You're soft [ __ ] you know.
01:31:43
>> But um so he has definitely done a lot.
01:31:46
Um it's still but it is still hard for
01:31:50
for for
01:31:51
males to open up even if it's to your
01:31:55
mates you know
01:31:56
>> sometimes
01:31:57
>> when it shouldn't be really
01:31:59
>> but if I don't know what it is.
01:32:01
>> Yeah.
01:32:01
>> It's that it's that macho
01:32:04
um don't want to look soft in front of
01:32:07
people. I I'll be able to work this out.
01:32:09
And I suppose with some guys
01:32:12
>> my their I'm just going to work it out.
01:32:14
it it's too late and then something
01:32:17
might might happen. So,
01:32:21
>> which is which is not good.
01:32:22
>> No.
01:32:24
>> Um Yeah. You mentioned your grandkids a
01:32:27
couple of times. How many? Seven. Seven
01:32:28
of them.
01:32:29
>> Yeah. Seven.
01:32:29
>> Yeah. How How do you hope they see you
01:32:31
as a man?
01:32:32
>> Um
01:32:35
Um
01:32:36
>> What are you like?
01:32:37
>> The supplier of the supplier of rugby
01:32:40
jerseys to them.
01:32:43
No, I just I mean I've been to watch
01:32:45
watch some of their sports not as much
01:32:47
as I I I I want to or would have wanted
01:32:51
to. They they have they moved up from
01:32:54
Christ Church at the beginning of this
01:32:56
year. So So I was even further away. So
01:32:59
um m just that that I I go and watch
01:33:02
their sports when I can that if they
01:33:05
want me on the other end of the phone
01:33:07
that's
01:33:08
>> I'm there. Um
01:33:12
um they my granddaughter will I'm not
01:33:16
sure whether I'm her favorite because
01:33:18
she gave me late notice and asked for an
01:33:20
all black ticket to the game and I'm
01:33:22
like hey I might be able to get one and
01:33:24
I haven't been able to. So
01:33:26
>> how how old are they? How old are the
01:33:28
grandkids?
01:33:28
>> Um the oldest is uh 16 and she's so she
01:33:32
she's the one who took my Argentinian
01:33:35
rugby jersey. Um so um and then it's 16
01:33:41
14
01:33:44
11 9 and two I think
01:33:49
>> and and then the boys are
01:33:53
I think one and two on the other side.
01:33:55
>> Wow.
01:33:55
>> And then Yeah.
01:33:57
>> Yeah. I mean you you your playing days
01:33:59
were over by the time they came along.
01:34:00
But do they have an appreciation for for
01:34:02
just how good you were?
01:34:04
um the older they get, they they look at
01:34:07
videos or online in between all that
01:34:10
other [ __ ] that kids watch
01:34:13
um and go, "Oh." And sometimes my
01:34:16
daughter will ring me and go, "Oh, kids
01:34:18
were just saying, "Oh, I didn't
01:34:19
realize." Cuz what they call me Koro
01:34:22
Koro Mumu. Because when they were
01:34:25
younger, I was the same old thing. They
01:34:26
I don't know what they were trying to
01:34:28
say, but it was Kor Mumu. So that's what
01:34:30
they call me. and they just say, "Oh,
01:34:32
Cotto Mumu was I didn't think I didn't
01:34:34
realize he was that he was good like
01:34:36
that,
01:34:37
>> you know."
01:34:39
>> But yeah, so got a a net baller and a
01:34:42
rugby player or league rugby or league.
01:34:44
He plays both at the moment. So,
01:34:47
>> are you getting um more emotional as you
01:34:49
get older?
01:34:50
>> I find I find I am in my 20s or 30s. I
01:34:52
could probably count how much I cried on
01:34:54
like one hand.
01:34:56
>> Now, a sad movie will get me going.
01:34:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. sad movies and and and
01:35:02
sort of tragedies whether it's a doco or
01:35:05
whatever that Yeah, mate. I I don't I
01:35:08
think I was like this when I was
01:35:09
younger, too, but I hit it better. But
01:35:12
yeah, no, I I get a tear tear to the eye
01:35:15
quite easily these days watching some of
01:35:17
the [ __ ] on TV going, well, it's not
01:35:19
[ __ ] but I'm like, man,
01:35:21
>> it's quite a nice emotion to lean into
01:35:23
though, eh?
01:35:23
>> Yeah. I sort of got to turn my head.
01:35:27
>> Yeah. You're still like a little little
01:35:28
bit sort of embarrassed about it.
01:35:30
>> Yeah, she knows cuz you're soft, man.
01:35:32
I'm like cuz she's my she doesn't she's
01:35:35
she's a bit tougher in that aspect.
01:35:39
>> But she she watches scary movies all the
01:35:43
time and I
01:35:46
>> I I'm hopeless. I hate them. They scare
01:35:49
the [ __ ] out of me.
01:35:50
>> Yeah. Especially that one where you know
01:35:52
it's coming. But I still go like that
01:35:54
and she's go and she's just sitting
01:35:56
there going that's ridiculous. You knew
01:35:58
it was coming. I said well yeah I know I
01:36:01
knew it was coming but when it came
01:36:03
still made me jump because
01:36:05
she goes she shakes her head. I'm like
01:36:10
I'm exactly the same. I I loathe horror
01:36:13
movies and they do that thing where the
01:36:15
music's building and yeah you know it's
01:36:16
you know it's happening. Um, do you have
01:36:19
any regrets?
01:36:22
>> Do I have any regrets?
01:36:24
Um,
01:36:26
no. Not in the not in the sense of of of
01:36:29
where I've been and what I've done um in
01:36:31
my life. The only regret is probably
01:36:33
more um setting things up for when I
01:36:38
finished playing rugby
01:36:40
>> and and and and maybe having done that
01:36:45
through with some professionals who
01:36:48
could direct you in a in a in a better
01:36:50
path.
01:36:51
>> So
01:36:53
>> yeah,
01:36:54
>> probably probably only that. Um, you
01:36:57
know, we all do some silly things here
01:36:58
and there um as as we get on. And I'm no
01:37:02
different. I did some stupid things when
01:37:04
I was, you know, single
01:37:07
>> um for a few years thinking I was still
01:37:11
a teenager running around being stupid.
01:37:13
But
01:37:14
>> but nothing that hurt anybody hopefully.
01:37:19
>> Um, yeah, that's the thing about getting
01:37:21
older. So sometimes you don't realize
01:37:23
you're getting older and then you look
01:37:24
in the mirror. I don't know if it's the
01:37:25
same for you. I look in the mirror like,
01:37:26
"Who is that old guy looking back at
01:37:28
me?"
01:37:29
>> Yeah. No, I do. I go, "Jesus,
01:37:31
>> where's where have the years gone?"
01:37:34
>> Um, what about future goals?
01:37:38
>> No, just to be happy, spend more time um
01:37:40
with with the grandkids as they as they
01:37:43
grow up. Again, like I say, it's a a
01:37:45
little bit tough when they live in out
01:37:48
of out of town, but um hopefully um when
01:37:53
they all come back this way, the boys as
01:37:56
well that you know, just there'll be
01:37:58
times when we get the family together a
01:38:00
lot more often,
01:38:02
>> you know.
01:38:02
>> Yeah. It seems like you're quite I don't
01:38:03
know if I don't know if this was on the
01:38:04
on the podcast or before we came in the
01:38:06
studio, but you mentioned um on the
01:38:07
drive here today, you spoke to your son
01:38:09
Ben in France. So, you're obviously
01:38:11
quite Yeah. quite connected. You're
01:38:12
quite you're quite in touch with
01:38:14
everyone. Quite familycentric.
01:38:16
>> Oh yeah. I just um
01:38:19
I just ring up um every week with the
01:38:22
boys, see how they're going.
01:38:24
>> Maybe twice a week sometimes um and just
01:38:28
see see how the rugy's going. I I mean I
01:38:29
see some of it on TV um or the
01:38:32
highlights of it and just see what he
01:38:34
was thinking on some points.
01:38:38
>> Does he appreciate the input?
01:38:40
>> Um
01:38:41
>> probably.
01:38:41
>> Yeah. Yeah, they they appreciate some of
01:38:43
the input. Um,
01:38:46
>> some of it they know, like I said, like
01:38:48
one of my the oldest boy
01:38:50
>> got some some tips off of off somebody
01:38:53
else. Um, which I don't mind, you know,
01:38:57
it's fine as long as sometimes it's
01:38:59
harder even now it's still harder of
01:39:01
them to
01:39:02
>> get the info off me
01:39:05
>> as opposed to that fellow over there who
01:39:07
just said what I just said,
01:39:08
>> you know,
01:39:09
>> and a different slightly different. But
01:39:11
yeah, Dad. Yeah, I'm all right, Dad. So,
01:39:13
>> yeah, Dad. Things are different now,
01:39:14
Dad.
01:39:15
>> Yeah. Well Well, unfortunately, they're
01:39:17
not some of that stuff that they do. So,
01:39:20
>> yeah. So,
01:39:21
>> and what what are your thoughts on
01:39:23
retirement? So, you're like three years
01:39:25
away from the New Zealand government
01:39:27
retirement age, but I mean 65, it's
01:39:30
[ __ ] young, isn't it? You still got a
01:39:31
lot of life ahead after that. You
01:39:33
planning on retiring or you just want to
01:39:35
keep on going?
01:39:36
>> Um, no. I don't really want to keep on
01:39:38
going.
01:39:39
>> What? Are you stupid?
01:39:43
>> What What would you do though? Like I
01:39:45
feel like you need a reason to get out
01:39:46
of bed.
01:39:47
>> Oh, I'll f Don't you worry. I'll find
01:39:48
plenty of reasons. It's not a problem.
01:39:52
Are you going to be able to retire at
01:39:53
65?
01:39:54
>> Um, yeah, I think I will.
01:39:55
>> Y
01:39:58
>> um, and if if um, what three words would
01:40:01
you like family or friends to use to
01:40:03
describe you? So, say say you weren't in
01:40:06
the room, but you were through that
01:40:08
glass listening and your grandkids or
01:40:09
your kids were in here or your fiance.
01:40:11
What three words would you like them to
01:40:13
use to describe you?
01:40:15
>> How do you hope they would see you?
01:40:16
>> Um,
01:40:20
thoughtful.
01:40:22
loving
01:40:24
and
01:40:27
full loving
01:40:30
and caring.
01:40:32
>> That's all.
01:40:33
>> They're great words, eh? It feels like
01:40:36
they're all quite similar.
01:40:38
>> Yeah, they are. Um,
01:40:43
fun as well. Like, let's go and see
01:40:45
grandad. He's fun.
01:40:49
You do you load them up with sugar or
01:40:50
are you quite responsible?
01:40:52
>> Mate, when they with I remember my I
01:40:55
went down to Christ Church to uh to look
01:40:57
after the kids cuz my my daughter was
01:40:59
out of town with work and so was um my
01:41:03
son-in-law and she had three pages on
01:41:07
each child and what they will try and do
01:41:10
what they I looked at it and I rang her.
01:41:12
I said, "What the hell is this?" She
01:41:14
goes, "They're going to try that stuff."
01:41:17
And this is what you got to do. I looked
01:41:18
at it. I went, "Okay." Did nothing of
01:41:22
it. If they wanted something, they got
01:41:24
it.
01:41:28
Yeah. Okay. No worries. Like, "Oh, mom
01:41:31
only lets us have one." Well, you That's
01:41:33
all right. I'm not mom like I'm I'm
01:41:37
grandad and you can have it.
01:41:39
>> So,
01:41:40
>> like an instruction manual. But I think
01:41:41
that's the perk of being a granddad,
01:41:42
isn't it? That's um Yeah, that's the
01:41:45
pleasure of being a grandparent,
01:41:46
spoiling your kids and then giving them
01:41:48
back.
01:41:48
>> Yeah.
01:41:49
>> I don't care what my daughter says to me
01:41:50
and what I should and shouldn't do. I
01:41:52
don't I'm not going to listen to you.
01:41:54
You never listen to me, so no.
01:41:57
>> Oh, that's cool. I can see your eyes
01:41:59
light up when you talk about um your
01:42:01
kids and your grandkids. It's cool.
01:42:03
>> Yeah. No, no, love talking to my my kids
01:42:06
all the time and and love seeing them
01:42:08
succeed in in different areas, whether
01:42:11
it's sport and in you know, and my
01:42:13
daughter and her and and my son-in-law
01:42:15
and business are doing really well. So,
01:42:18
>> so it's great.
01:42:19
>> Yeah. Really love it.
01:42:21
>> This has been a great chat today. Do you
01:42:22
do you enjoy do do you enjoy reflecting?
01:42:25
You enjoy a conversation like this or um
01:42:28
>> you indifferent to it?
01:42:29
>> I don't mind it. I love it when like uh
01:42:33
when you're talking about it with the
01:42:35
your the rugby boys and you because you
01:42:39
keep they keep bringing up stories that
01:42:41
you forgot about and you go, "Oh man,
01:42:43
that was so funny." And then you you go
01:42:45
in off on another tangent and and and
01:42:47
the stories keep flowing and you there's
01:42:50
nothing like a good laugh
01:42:52
>> all the time. Not all the time, but most
01:42:54
of the time, you know, you just want to
01:42:57
have a laugh every now and then.
01:42:58
>> So that and it's generally from from
01:43:02
past memories
01:43:04
>> where you just crack up and go,
01:43:06
>> what were we thinking?
01:43:08
>> So funny.
01:43:08
>> Yeah.
01:43:09
>> Yeah.
01:43:10
>> Oh, that's cool. Well, thanks for coming
01:43:11
today and being so open.
01:43:13
>> Yes.
01:43:14
>> It hasn't been too unpleasant.
01:43:16
>> No, no, it's been easy. And you can you
01:43:20
say hello to to my mate on Friday.
01:43:24
>> Oh yeah, Warren Gatland. Yeah, he's he's
01:43:25
coming in.
01:43:26
>> Yeah.
01:43:26
>> Yeah. Say hello to him. That would be
01:43:28
good.
01:43:28
>> I'll um drop some words like um ask him
01:43:30
about life as a dirty dirty.
01:43:32
>> Yeah, you can. You can. Yeah, he was
01:43:34
pretty good. Dirty dirty to be fair.
01:43:38
>> He's gone all right. I thought about him
01:43:39
before when you were talking about Wales
01:43:40
and just how passionate they are over
01:43:41
there. It's like um if you're a
01:43:43
successful coach over there like
01:43:44
>> Sir Graeme Henry was and Warren Gatland.
01:43:47
Yeah. Like Warren Gatlin have got some
01:43:48
gates to the stadium named after him.
01:43:52
>> Principality Stadium. There's Gatlin
01:43:54
Gates.
01:43:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, they've done he's done
01:43:56
an amazing job over there and coached,
01:43:59
you know, done some coached some great
01:44:01
teams and that. So, I mean, good on
01:44:03
them. I mean,
01:44:06
>> full credit. Yeah.
01:44:09
>> Last one. Are you proud of yourself?
01:44:12
>> Am I proud of myself? For the majority
01:44:14
of of what I've done here,
01:44:16
>> in my life, I'm pretty proud of myself.
01:44:19
>> You know, there's always going to be one
01:44:21
or two
01:44:23
things that I've, you know, we've all
01:44:25
done in our life where we go, "Oh,
01:44:26
Jesus, shouldn't have done that. Oh, I
01:44:29
shouldn't have done that."
01:44:31
>> Those I find those intrusive thoughts,
01:44:32
they sort of come into your head at 2 in
01:44:34
the morning when you wake up. You think
01:44:36
about something you did back in the 80s
01:44:37
or
01:44:38
>> something random. And you're like, I
01:44:40
don't know why I'm thinking of this, but
01:44:42
yeah. So, yeah.
01:44:45
>> Yeah. Well, Franica, thank you so much
01:44:47
for coming on the podcast today, mate.
01:44:48
It's been bloody brilliant. I've really
01:44:50
enjoyed it, and I can't thank you enough
01:44:51
for your time, mate.
01:44:52
>> Cheers, though.
01:44:52
>> Yeah. Cheers.
01:44:53
>> Thanks, bro.
