00:00:00
Yeah, it was tough uh finishing up at
00:00:01
Wales. Results and performances weren't
00:00:03
good enough and I understand that and
00:00:05
there was just a huge amount of
00:00:06
negativity out there and I kind of woke
00:00:08
up one day went actually I don't need
00:00:09
this in my life. Probably a lot of
00:00:11
people don't realize is that the success
00:00:13
that we had over a period and we're
00:00:15
there we knew we were papering over the
00:00:17
cracks that were that were there and
00:00:19
when we said when the dam bursts which
00:00:21
it has it's going to take a while to fix
00:00:23
it up. I have this romantic view of the
00:00:25
Lions. I see the Lions as being an
00:00:27
opportunity to celebrate the game.
00:00:29
Probably 217 221 was the first time I
00:00:32
kind of went winning. It was more
00:00:35
important than anything else.
00:00:36
>> Do you do you load the media?
00:00:37
>> It's one organization that I'd never
00:00:39
deal with again.
00:00:40
>> Can you say what organization or no?
00:00:41
>> New Zealand Hero.
00:00:42
>> Oh, right. On the Hero. Yeah. So, what's
00:00:44
the story about that? What's the whole
00:00:45
backstory with the clown nose? The clown
00:00:47
thing. What's the closest you've you've
00:00:49
come to being involved with the All
00:00:50
Blacks? Have there been like phone calls
00:00:52
or people reaching out over the years?
00:00:53
Oh, I've had um
00:00:57
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:01:00
the center of performance. Whenever
00:01:01
there's a top performance in New
00:01:02
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:04
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:06
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:08
Holland one in To.
00:01:12
>> He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:14
performance going?
00:01:14
>> Top tier.
00:01:15
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:17
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:19
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:21
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:01:23
Maximize, generate, putting performance
00:01:26
first.
00:01:32
>> Warren Gatland, welcome to my podcast.
00:01:34
>> Thanks, Dom.
00:01:35
>> Mate, it's great to have you here. This
00:01:36
was um sort of liazed um through through
00:01:39
your daughter.
00:01:41
>> Yeah, it was. I think you messaged her
00:01:43
and then and then she passed the message
00:01:45
on to me and I said, "Yeah, I said,
00:01:48
"Yeah, look, get him to contact me and
00:01:50
uh I'll I'll see what happens." From
00:01:52
what I can gather, this is your very
00:01:53
first NZ podcast.
00:01:56
>> Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I've done a few of
00:01:58
them. A lot of them overseas, but uh not
00:02:00
really in in New Zealand. Yeah.
00:02:02
>> Yeah. Well, it's an honor to have you
00:02:03
here. One of the one of the greats of
00:02:04
New Zealand rugby, a great Mulu man and
00:02:07
a coaching great. Yeah. Um, how does
00:02:09
life look for you this year?
00:02:12
>> Uh, I'm loving life at the moment.
00:02:14
Really enjoying things. So, yeah, it was
00:02:16
tough uh finishing up at Wales. Um but
00:02:20
I'm I I kind of made the right decision
00:02:22
for myself. Um
00:02:24
kind of looked at it there was um it was
00:02:28
as a challenge and you know results and
00:02:30
performances weren't good enough and I
00:02:33
understand that uh and there was just a
00:02:35
huge amount of negativity out there and
00:02:37
I kind of woke up one day went actually
00:02:38
I don't need this in my life. M
00:02:40
>> uh I've been through a lot, been
00:02:42
successful. Um and I felt was you know
00:02:44
it was it was a challenge. So kind of
00:02:47
said um you know that's enough for me
00:02:49
for the moment and I will have a break
00:02:51
and there's a few other things on the
00:02:54
horizon and few other opportunities but
00:02:56
just really enjoyed uh like having that
00:02:59
time and and myself and family had a bit
00:03:02
of time in Spain and Portugal and and
00:03:04
France and then we come back just come
00:03:06
back from Fiji for a few week a few
00:03:07
weeks and uh yeah and just um just going
00:03:11
with the flow.
00:03:13
>> Yeah. on your your daughter's Instagram.
00:03:15
I saw some uh footage from Dinerell of
00:03:16
you diving into the pool. It's not a bad
00:03:18
dive for a man in his 60s.
00:03:20
>> Yeah. Uh yeah, just having we went out
00:03:24
to one of the islands got um Paradise
00:03:27
Cove which was we flew out there which
00:03:29
was beautiful and then in into Sopel in
00:03:32
Denal and
00:03:34
uh my son and um his girlfriend were
00:03:37
there and my daughter and son-in-law and
00:03:39
two grandkids. Yeah, we had a great
00:03:41
time. It was it was really good to have
00:03:42
some some quality family time.
00:03:44
>> Yeah. Yeah. You seem real family
00:03:45
ccentric. So there's your wife Trudy who
00:03:47
you've been with for um decades now. And
00:03:49
it's her birthday today by the way.
00:03:50
>> Yeah. She's uh she she turns the same
00:03:52
age as me today. So only for a couple of
00:03:54
weeks for my birthday in a couple of
00:03:55
weeks. So
00:03:56
>> and and two adult kids um Gabby and
00:03:59
Brin. And uh yeah, it was Gabby who who
00:04:00
set this up. Um
00:04:03
yeah. Uh I read about Gabby. There was a
00:04:06
bet that you guys had during the 2017
00:04:08
Lions tour. It wasn't so much a bet. Uh
00:04:11
I can remember
00:04:14
um
00:04:16
after the second test, so the the test
00:04:18
series was one all and
00:04:21
the Lions uh it was the second time I've
00:04:26
been involved and obviously coming to
00:04:27
New Zealand and playing
00:04:31
the All Blacks at home. Two test matches
00:04:33
at Eden Park. Uh obviously with a record
00:04:36
has been fairly fantastic for the All
00:04:38
Blacks. Um
00:04:40
the people in charge of the Lions I
00:04:43
suppose never thought that we had any
00:04:44
chance of winning a series. So they
00:04:47
offered me a huge bonus for uh winning a
00:04:52
Lion series in New Zealand. But um
00:04:54
stupidly I never uh
00:04:58
uh sort of uh negotiated for a drawn
00:05:02
series. I remember on the Friday night
00:05:05
before the third test, uh saying to
00:05:08
Gabby, I said, "Gabs, um if we win
00:05:11
tomorrow, uh you can go shopping on
00:05:13
Sunday and buy whatever you want." So,
00:05:15
she was pretty excited about about that.
00:05:17
And obviously, we we drew the third test
00:05:20
and I get a text from her about 15 20
00:05:23
minutes later saying, "Dad, are we still
00:05:24
going shopping tomorrow?" So, you know,
00:05:26
you can understand young uh teenage
00:05:28
girls or young young women in in terms
00:05:31
of um you know, what their priorities
00:05:33
are.
00:05:33
>> Well, I I asked her what she would have
00:05:35
bought um if you handed over the card.
00:05:37
Yeah. By the way, 15 all draw in that
00:05:39
third game. E Lions versus Blacks. Um
00:05:41
she said I would have bought myself a
00:05:42
nice new wardrobe. Well, this is going
00:05:44
to make me sound like a brat.
00:05:46
>> So, I don't know how extensive the
00:05:48
wardrobe is. She's
00:05:49
>> talking she's got she's um uh two lucky
00:05:52
I got two great kids. They they are
00:05:55
>> fantastic. They've done well. Um and the
00:05:59
most important thing is they're good
00:06:00
people and um that's what I like and the
00:06:02
relationship that Gabby and Brenn have
00:06:04
is has been amazing just how incredibly
00:06:07
close they are. So you know look we're
00:06:09
very very lucky as as parents in terms
00:06:11
of uh the two kids we have. And Brun on
00:06:14
Instagram, there's like a series of
00:06:16
videos of um like you having a like an
00:06:18
old man nap in the middle of the day and
00:06:20
he he sneaks up and kisses you on the on
00:06:22
the mouth.
00:06:23
>> Oh,
00:06:23
>> how many times does he get you?
00:06:26
>> He's a recidivist.
00:06:27
>> Oh, I know. He's a he loves scaring
00:06:30
people, you know. So, that's kind of one
00:06:31
of his things, you know, hiding behind
00:06:33
covers. He's got some mates who do that
00:06:35
sort of thing. I remember driving
00:06:36
through the tunnels at um on a bike ride
00:06:38
one day at why he and so he's biked
00:06:40
ahead and it's pitch black and he's
00:06:43
hidden in one of the corners and come
00:06:45
out and scared me and stuff. So he loves
00:06:47
doing a bit of that sort of stuff and
00:06:48
and and catching me out. So uh yeah,
00:06:51
it's probably probably about time I got
00:06:53
him back I think.
00:06:54
>> Oh 100%. Yeah, it's um yeah what it's
00:06:57
like 10 nil at the moment I think to him
00:06:59
according to Instagram. Um and what is
00:07:01
the big match philosophy in the Gatland
00:07:04
household? The big much. Oh. Um,
00:07:10
>> that's an interesting one. Um,
00:07:12
so if we say just each, you know, how
00:07:14
much it's big much and it means uh how
00:07:18
much do I love you? And it's big much.
00:07:21
So I really started with Brin and used
00:07:24
to um read, you know, um I said, "How
00:07:28
much do I love you for big hair?" The
00:07:31
the rabbit story, the big hair story. So
00:07:34
it goes on, you know, just, you know,
00:07:36
how much I love you to to the gate and
00:07:37
back and to the park and back and up to
00:07:39
the road. I I can't remember the story.
00:07:41
So I used to get to the end of it and,
00:07:43
you know, they used to finish off I
00:07:44
loved you to the moon and back and
00:07:45
everyone's sort of heard that and then
00:07:47
so I'd finish off that and Brin say well
00:07:50
I love you the sun back and then I'd go
00:07:52
I loved you the stars and back and then
00:07:54
I love you the stars back hundred times
00:07:56
then a thousand times then million
00:07:58
times. So this would this would go on
00:08:00
and on. He loved the story and one day I
00:08:02
said to him, um, "Bren, I love you big
00:08:04
much and there's nothing bigger than
00:08:06
that." And he went, "Oh, okay." So he
00:08:08
never asked me again. So, so it kind of
00:08:11
just became a saying in the family say
00:08:13
just say how much and it's sort of kind
00:08:14
of like big much. And I don't know if
00:08:16
you ever saw me in games. Sometimes
00:08:17
they'd be in you put your hands out
00:08:19
because that's what the the hair does
00:08:21
and you reach out as far as you can and
00:08:23
that sort of like symbolizes what big
00:08:25
match and a lot of times in games seen
00:08:28
the family and Brin does it as well. you
00:08:30
see u family up in in the stands and you
00:08:32
just might do that and just you know we
00:08:34
know exactly what we're saying to each
00:08:36
other so you know just how important
00:08:38
each other is and and how important our
00:08:40
relationship is.
00:08:41
>> It's so cool something you still say and
00:08:44
do to this day.
00:08:45
>> Yeah. My granddaughter so I'd say she's
00:08:47
she's three and a half. She'll be Oh,
00:08:49
she'll be four in October. So if I say
00:08:51
to her how much she'll go big much.
00:08:52
Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's kind of we
00:08:57
we've got a we've got a a few of those
00:08:59
sort of little saying, you know, I'd say
00:09:01
my daughter, um, she got me some some
00:09:05
shirts for for Christmas last year.
00:09:07
One's
00:09:08
uh called uh u my second favorite
00:09:12
because I, you know, I'd say to all the
00:09:16
kids all the time, "Oh, you're my second
00:09:17
favorite or you're my second favorite.
00:09:18
Who's your first?" And I'd just say, "I
00:09:20
don't know." you know, so that that came
00:09:22
a bit of a bit of a joke. And uh uh
00:09:25
another shirt she she got made for me
00:09:27
was any chance. And people So when we
00:09:30
say to each other in the family, so is
00:09:33
there any chance? We know exactly what
00:09:35
we're saying because I coached a guy in
00:09:38
in Wasps called Fraser Waters and came
00:09:42
from very posh family from family from
00:09:45
Jersey and uh well educated. He wasn't
00:09:47
playing rugby for the money. He didn't
00:09:49
need the didn't need the money. He was
00:09:51
playing because he loved the game and he
00:09:54
was such a competitor. And when you get
00:09:57
those sort of play, they're gold dust.
00:09:59
They're absolutely gold in terms of um
00:10:01
the UK because it's not it's not trying
00:10:04
to think about your future because they
00:10:06
want they're competitive and want to
00:10:07
win. And we were doing something one day
00:10:10
and I and the boys used to take the
00:10:13
mickey out of him and they used to call
00:10:14
him faqua very posh you know Fraser
00:10:17
waters you know play had a few caps for
00:10:19
England Fqua you know so one day Fraser
00:10:22
said excuse me is there any chance and I
00:10:24
went what is there any chance and I and
00:10:27
I went what do you mean is there any
00:10:29
chance and he I said what does that mean
00:10:31
he said that's just a polite way of
00:10:33
saying would you hurry the [ __ ] up
00:10:36
excuse my excuse my language.
00:10:40
So anytime we're with the family and one
00:10:43
of us and no one knows you're saying you
00:10:45
say is any chance and the others know
00:10:47
exactly what they're saying. So we got a
00:10:49
few few little quirky things like that
00:10:51
with within the family a big much and
00:10:54
any chance and you know you're my second
00:10:56
favorite and a few other things there.
00:10:58
>> It's really cool. It's like your own
00:10:59
little sort of language or
00:11:00
>> Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose when
00:11:02
you, you know, when you're away from
00:11:04
home so much and you're in a lot of
00:11:06
different people's companies, you know,
00:11:08
you need a few things to keep you
00:11:10
entertained, but also uh as a reminder
00:11:13
to tell someone to hurry up if they need
00:11:14
to to get on with it as well.
00:11:16
>> Oh, how good's that? And what about
00:11:18
Trudy and yourself? When you guys met at
00:11:20
Teachers College?
00:11:21
>> Met at Teachers College.
00:11:22
>> What age?
00:11:23
>> Uh was our third year at Teachers
00:11:26
College. So, uh 20ish 20. Yeah. 21, I
00:11:29
think. Yeah. Um,
00:11:31
>> what were you like? Were you a rugby
00:11:32
head at the time?
00:11:33
>> Yeah, I was I was I had I hadn't played
00:11:36
I think that year I sat on the bench at
00:11:38
the end of the year for White Cat. It
00:11:40
was it was the we knew who each other
00:11:42
were um cuz we were in the same year,
00:11:44
but we hadn't really connected or or
00:11:46
spoken and
00:11:48
you you'd probably get kicked out of
00:11:50
doing this today, but it was the first
00:11:52
day of the semester or the term of of
00:11:55
the year and she was standing in front
00:11:58
of me looking at the notice board and
00:11:59
looking at the schedule and what was
00:12:01
going on and I came behind, I knew who
00:12:02
she was and I I pinched her backside and
00:12:05
she turned around and smiled and then uh
00:12:08
kind of we connected after that. And I
00:12:10
was thinking this kind of not the thing
00:12:11
you do these in canceled for that.
00:12:14
>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Kicked out and
00:12:17
banned and forever, but um yeah, so
00:12:21
>> that was in 85. So yeah, sort of 40
00:12:24
years really. Yeah.
00:12:25
>> Wow.
00:12:25
>> Yeah,
00:12:26
>> that's an amazing uh Yeah, amazing time
00:12:28
frame. And and it seems like you still
00:12:30
really like each other's company. Yeah,
00:12:32
I think um we've been
00:12:36
uh
00:12:38
done a lot of traveling. You know, we've
00:12:40
lived in a number of countries and with
00:12:42
Ireland and and obviously in London and
00:12:45
and uh time at Wasps and Wales and then
00:12:48
back back home. Uh I don't know how many
00:12:51
how many houses we've lived in over the
00:12:53
years. And I think in all that time, I
00:12:55
think I've only been there for about two
00:12:57
of the shifts, but she's done mo she's
00:13:00
done most of them. Yeah. So, yeah, it's
00:13:02
uh it it's worked. I mean, we went to
00:13:06
Ireland when the the kids were
00:13:09
very young. Um BR hadn't really learned
00:13:12
to to speak at that time. So, um they
00:13:15
both picked up Irish accents and then we
00:13:18
sort of six years living in Ireland. We
00:13:20
moved back to um or we moved to London
00:13:22
and uh Brinn kept his Irish accent till
00:13:25
he was sort of 12 or 13. And then Gabby
00:13:27
picked up an English accent. And I
00:13:29
remember Trudy coming home one day. She
00:13:31
taken the kids out shopping and stuff
00:13:32
and um she was having a coffee and
00:13:35
sitting down. The kids were having
00:13:36
something to eat and drink and woman in
00:13:38
the table next door said, "Excuse me, I
00:13:40
don't mean to be rude, but how does it
00:13:43
work that you have a son who has an
00:13:44
Irish accent, a daughter's got an
00:13:46
English accent, you've got a New Zealand
00:13:47
accent. How does that kind of work?" So
00:13:50
um but after the time at was we came
00:13:52
back um kids were kind of ready getting
00:13:55
Gabby was getting ready for high school
00:13:56
and and Bren as well and then I I did
00:14:01
the whales sing and um sort of travel
00:14:03
back and forwards between campaigns and
00:14:05
they came over and yeah it kind of it
00:14:07
kind of worked. Um the thing about
00:14:10
international rugby is that it's it's
00:14:11
full on in those periods but you do get
00:14:13
a little bit of respite in terms of a
00:14:16
break in between campaigns. How hard has
00:14:18
your career been on um Trudy and the
00:14:20
kids?
00:14:21
>> How has
00:14:22
>> How hard has it been?
00:14:24
>> Has it been hard on them or
00:14:25
>> I think it's been challenging. We you
00:14:27
know we've made sacrifices um being
00:14:30
apart and stuff and
00:14:32
>> missing sort of um you know important
00:14:35
events and things but it's given us that
00:14:39
opportunity. It's given us um security
00:14:41
and and and
00:14:43
you know had that chance to be able to
00:14:45
set ourselves up financially and
00:14:46
probably the f for the future of my
00:14:48
family and stuff and and I kind of um
00:14:52
and that that for me was kind of has
00:14:54
been or was a motivating factor you know
00:14:56
sort of coming from I wouldn't say a
00:14:59
privileged upbringing and you know
00:15:00
pretty tough times and so to have those
00:15:04
opportunities uh given to you in terms
00:15:06
of playing rugby when the game
00:15:08
professional get involved and coaching
00:15:10
and and being able to earn a a good
00:15:12
living. Yeah, it's it's challenging
00:15:14
because there's a lot of um
00:15:18
there can be criticism and negativity
00:15:19
out there and those are kind of you get
00:15:21
to sort of put up with that and um
00:15:26
almost sometimes it I think times are
00:15:28
change where it's kind of almost like
00:15:30
water off a duck's back in terms of a
00:15:32
lot of the stuff that's I'm not on
00:15:34
social media. um
00:15:37
a couple of little accounts where the
00:15:38
family family family know about which is
00:15:40
if we need to contact each other. So um
00:15:43
and I think that helps that you know I
00:15:45
don't you always hear about the stuff
00:15:47
that's going on and and you know sort of
00:15:51
what people are saying if there's
00:15:52
negativity but I just I' definitely try
00:15:55
and stay away from it.
00:15:56
>> You there was a a post Gabby did um some
00:15:58
ex players were coming at you and she
00:16:00
had to go on social media. Um, so
00:16:02
obviously like it it hurt her deeply
00:16:05
like seeing the old man
00:16:06
>> um having a having a rough go. Like when
00:16:09
that happens to you say Gabby don't even
00:16:10
get involved or does it like make your
00:16:13
heart burst with pride? Oh, I think I
00:16:15
think the piece that she wrote was was
00:16:19
um when I saw that I thought it was
00:16:21
pretty amazing. You know, it's kind of
00:16:22
like she was
00:16:25
I could understand look there were some
00:16:27
players in the media and they they had
00:16:29
been a bit critical of um myself and
00:16:33
some of the performance and that's
00:16:35
understandable. That's that was their
00:16:36
job and that's what they get paid for.
00:16:38
But she kind of the point she was kind
00:16:40
of make was that you know if it have it
00:16:43
hadn't been for the success of uh your
00:16:46
rugby careers in Wales and and that then
00:16:48
you probably wouldn't be in those jobs
00:16:50
or in those positions or being asked to
00:16:52
do those sorts of things and um and it's
00:16:56
like everything that sort of it's
00:16:58
sensational and news for for a few
00:17:00
minutes but the amount of responses that
00:17:03
she got from people in terms of and even
00:17:05
the messages that I got from people
00:17:07
saying, "Oh, you must be really proud of
00:17:10
>> your daughter and you know what she
00:17:11
said." And I think she was pretty
00:17:12
eloquent in in terms of her response and
00:17:15
and I suppose having a you know I
00:17:18
haven't I didn't really say anything but
00:17:20
you know her wanting to have a bit of a
00:17:21
crack back at them and and and protect
00:17:23
her dad and uh because you know we are
00:17:26
in really an incredibly close family.
00:17:28
>> Yeah. Oh, it's touching. It's really
00:17:30
nice. Yeah. Um, and yeah. So, so the the
00:17:34
last week while you've been in Wales on
00:17:35
like on on your own, the family's back
00:17:37
here. Um, yeah. How is bachelor life?
00:17:38
Did you pick up any bad habits?
00:17:40
>> Have you found it hard like to go go
00:17:42
back to living in a in a house with your
00:17:43
wife?
00:17:44
>> Um, no. I think I've been good. So,
00:17:47
yeah, I do most of the cooking and try
00:17:49
and help out around around home and
00:17:52
stuff. So, um, yeah, I think, um,
00:17:58
I've never minded my own company and
00:18:00
I've kind of been busier and so when
00:18:01
you're back and you you're sort of
00:18:03
coaching, you are you are really busy.
00:18:05
Probably the hardest I found Sundays the
00:18:07
hardest day. It's kind of like it's
00:18:08
almost like
00:18:10
>> it's your rest day and your family day
00:18:12
and kind of um yeah, that was for me
00:18:14
sometimes being on my own on Sundays was
00:18:17
the most challenging thing. But um like
00:18:20
I said when you're involved in campaigns
00:18:23
and you know particularly rugby it's
00:18:25
it's almost 24/7. It's fully on for that
00:18:28
sort of two month period or couple of
00:18:30
months and as um
00:18:34
you know people involved in the the
00:18:36
rugby championship will know exactly
00:18:38
what I'm talking about. Um
00:18:41
but I say you do get that bit of respite
00:18:43
in terms of a break you know in between
00:18:45
campaigns. M you'd imagine the
00:18:47
homesickness is um pretty fierce when
00:18:49
there's like a birthday or something
00:18:50
back home or maybe when you know you're
00:18:52
getting a hammering over there and
00:18:53
you're on a losing streak. That's when
00:18:55
you want your tribe around you.
00:18:57
>> Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And uh the thing
00:19:00
was that um I know it's Father's Day um
00:19:04
on on Sunday, but um I get uh I I never
00:19:09
I never seem to have Father's Day
00:19:11
because it was a different time of the
00:19:12
year and my wife seemed to get always
00:19:14
get two two Mother's Days, which is kind
00:19:16
of a uh was a was a bit ironic. So um
00:19:20
yeah, I think when you miss birthday
00:19:22
parties and um you know significant
00:19:25
events and you know you miss a lot of
00:19:27
family
00:19:29
functions and weddings and different but
00:19:31
I it's not really indifferent to when
00:19:33
you were playing growing up. You know I
00:19:35
I played a lot of cricket as a youngster
00:19:37
growing up so you know missed a lot of
00:19:39
family stuff in there and those are kind
00:19:41
of the sacrifices you make if you want
00:19:43
to be successful and you want to get to
00:19:45
try and get to the top of your sport. M
00:19:47
>> Well, you're in the country this year
00:19:49
for Father's Day. What What are you
00:19:50
having to get for Father's Day? The
00:19:51
Fuzzy book's pretty good, I believe.
00:19:52
>> Oh, apparently. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:55
Um
00:19:57
Yeah. I don't uh uh not sure what I'm
00:20:00
getting for Father's Day. Yeah. I spoke
00:20:01
to my daughter. I think she's she was
00:20:03
talking about getting me some sunglasses
00:20:04
or something like that. So, I think
00:20:07
>> her and her son might go might go halves
00:20:09
in that. So, I'll have to wait and see.
00:20:11
>> Yeah. I like hearing this family stuff.
00:20:13
It's really cool. It's really cool to
00:20:14
see the side of you. And I've actually
00:20:15
got a card here. And I don't know if you
00:20:16
want to talk about this marcher at all.
00:20:18
Um but this card's called Shauna.
00:20:20
>> All right. Yeah.
00:20:21
>> Yeah. Which is not something that's
00:20:22
widely known I guess about Warren
00:20:24
Gatlin. You you talk about this in your
00:20:25
book.
00:20:26
>> Yeah.
00:20:26
>> Um Yeah. So who who's Shauna?
00:20:29
>> So she was our first born. Um and she
00:20:33
unfortunately lived for about 4 months.
00:20:35
U she was born in spobifida and we and
00:20:38
times we even we had a couple of scans
00:20:39
and things just did not know. Um she was
00:20:42
born in in Ireland in in Gway. Um and
00:20:46
kind of um what happened then had a
00:20:49
really significant impact on me. Um what
00:20:54
wasn't in the short term but was what I
00:20:56
thought about uh on my coaching career
00:20:58
sort of later on. Um just the importance
00:21:01
of you know we're all involved in a
00:21:04
sport that we love and we make a lot of
00:21:06
commitment a lot of sacrifice. But I
00:21:09
kind of went a bit further than that. So
00:21:11
any teams that I've been involved in,
00:21:12
I've spoken about just um you know how
00:21:16
lucky we are and often you know people
00:21:18
are are well paid and you get those
00:21:20
opportunities but the most important
00:21:22
thing in your life is your family. And I
00:21:24
kind of went if things are right at home
00:21:26
if um you've got support from your
00:21:30
family then as a as a coach you get a
00:21:32
much better product on the field. And
00:21:36
often a player comes to me and says,
00:21:38
"Oh, my partner's got a scan. Uh, can I
00:21:41
miss training?" Yeah. Or something, you
00:21:43
know, something's wrong with one of the
00:21:45
kids at home or um the misses, you know,
00:21:48
there's some relationship issues and,
00:21:50
you know, they need to spend a bit of
00:21:51
time together. I I've never had a
00:21:53
problem with giving players some time or
00:21:57
missing some stuff because I know by
00:21:58
doing that that um I get so much
00:22:04
>> more in return from from those players
00:22:06
when I when I ask for um something from
00:22:10
them. Um and kind of like so when I'd
00:22:14
we'd been in uh going backwards and
00:22:16
forwards to Ireland for a few years. So
00:22:19
I' we'd spend uh five or six months in
00:22:23
Ireland and I was sort of player coach
00:22:24
there with a club called Goreians and
00:22:26
I'd come back to New Zealand and pick up
00:22:29
a relief teaching job
00:22:31
if um and lucky enough and play club
00:22:35
rugby play for WA and hopefully get
00:22:37
selected for an all day tour at the end
00:22:39
of the year and then stay on an island.
00:22:41
The downside of that we had eight
00:22:42
winters in a row but um u so but when we
00:22:45
were there um
00:22:48
obviously you know Shauna was born and
00:22:51
we were this the club that I was
00:22:53
involved with had been their whole goal
00:22:56
was to get promoted to the all island
00:22:57
league and the first year I went there
00:22:59
they weren't um in a position where they
00:23:02
could get promoted
00:23:04
the next year um just missed out on
00:23:07
promotion and we got promoted um that
00:23:10
third year or the third or fourth year.
00:23:13
And when Shauna was born, we were right
00:23:16
in the middle of the the playoffs for
00:23:18
promotion and they'd spent a significant
00:23:20
amount of money having us over there um
00:23:24
playing paying for accommodation, giving
00:23:25
us some expenses and and those things
00:23:27
over over that period. And
00:23:31
um when Sean was born, they said to you
00:23:34
you got to go home. and I just said,
00:23:35
"Look, we're in the middle of um
00:23:38
playoffs, you know, the next few weeks
00:23:40
are incredibly important." And they they
00:23:43
wouldn't have it. And so we we flew back
00:23:45
to New Zealand.
00:23:47
Um
00:23:49
I I think I'd played the first game
00:23:51
where we drew and we'd been back in back
00:23:54
in New Zealand for a few weeks and we
00:23:56
got things settled back home in terms of
00:23:58
um having things um you know pretty calm
00:24:02
in terms of Shauna coming back home and
00:24:04
I ran the club and I said was there's
00:24:06
another game. Do you want me to come
00:24:08
back for the the playoff which was
00:24:10
important having drawn the first game
00:24:13
and they said would you do that? So I I
00:24:15
flew back to to Ireland. We played this
00:24:17
game in Limmerch, won the game and I
00:24:20
flew back to New Zealand again. We we
00:24:22
got promoted to the all league. So and I
00:24:24
kind of felt and that that to me was a
00:24:29
massive lesson. They had made a massive
00:24:30
sec a huge sacrifice in giving me
00:24:33
something and it was easy for me to give
00:24:36
it back and I kind of knew, you know,
00:24:39
you know the same with the players. You
00:24:40
know,
00:24:42
people say, "Oh yeah, but what if
00:24:43
they're missing training?" I so I treat
00:24:44
it like you know they're carrying an
00:24:47
injury and they can't train and that
00:24:48
happens all the time and things and like
00:24:50
I said you you kind of get things right
00:24:53
off the field as much as you possibly
00:24:55
can and then hopefully you can get
00:24:56
things right on the field.
00:24:58
>> What were those four months like?
00:25:01
>> That they were challenging. Yeah. So um
00:25:03
>> cuz you're quite young at the time late
00:25:05
20s maybe 30.
00:25:06
>> Uh no it wasn't that. Uh
00:25:09
so Gabby was born when I was 30. So it's
00:25:12
30 years difference. So I think um 28 27
00:25:14
28. Yeah. Um it was tough you know sort
00:25:18
of um
00:25:20
I can remember um
00:25:23
when she was born in hospital in in
00:25:26
Goreway and and I and I didn't realize
00:25:28
but the obviously the the midwife and
00:25:30
the nurses and that and they started
00:25:32
they were sort of crying with tears and
00:25:34
stuff and sort of what was on and then
00:25:35
all of a sudden there was a bit of a um
00:25:40
you know the the sort of everyone
00:25:42
running around and stuff and and then we
00:25:44
got specialists involved and and I can
00:25:47
remember talking to the specialists, you
00:25:50
know, a few days later and saying, you
00:25:51
know, out of terms of spinobipida, you
00:25:54
know, out of
00:25:56
out of 10, how bad is she? He said, oh,
00:25:59
probably nine out of 10. And so, you
00:26:01
imagine a a little um,
00:26:04
you know, a little infant being born
00:26:06
with, you know, a significant sort of
00:26:08
hole on on uh on on the sort of lower
00:26:11
half of their back. And but the thing
00:26:14
for me is Trudy Trudy was amazing, you
00:26:17
know, just before Shauna passed away
00:26:19
that um
00:26:22
the the lesion over on her back had
00:26:25
healed and they said, you know, with a
00:26:28
lesion that size, there's a good chance
00:26:29
that um she'll get an infection and that
00:26:32
that'll go to the brain and it it'll
00:26:34
probably probably end up sort of um
00:26:37
killing her as well. But but that never
00:26:40
happened. And I mean she was, you know,
00:26:41
Trudy was amazing. Um, but it was, you
00:26:45
know, it was challenging afterwards as
00:26:46
well because I'd kind of, we would go
00:26:49
and see the doctor
00:26:52
every now and again. Um,
00:26:55
I'd actually gone on a rugby trip to
00:26:57
Australia
00:26:59
and um, sort of set her up and she
00:27:03
passed away while I was over over in
00:27:05
Australia. So I sort of flew back. Um,
00:27:09
and you know that was um
00:27:14
that to that took me a number of years
00:27:15
to sort of get over that because you I
00:27:17
wasn't when I was there and Trudy rang
00:27:19
me and there um and that was the sort of
00:27:23
the days before mobile phones really
00:27:26
sort of had come in and so you know I
00:27:28
was teaching back in New Zealand and
00:27:30
sometimes I'd get um a phone call from
00:27:33
the office say oh Trudy's run can you
00:27:35
give her a call back when and my heart
00:27:36
would just start pounding you know, kind
00:27:38
of like thinking, oh,
00:27:39
>> worst case.
00:27:40
>> Yeah. Worst case something's happened to
00:27:41
the kids, you know, and that and that um
00:27:43
yeah, so you don't realize sort of the
00:27:47
impact that those sort of things have on
00:27:49
you, not short term, but long term, you
00:27:51
know, and how long sometimes it takes a
00:27:52
while to to recover from those things.
00:27:54
So yeah, it's it's um I often talk to
00:27:58
the kids and go, you know, we talk about
00:28:00
Shauna a lot and say, you know, you you
00:28:04
were here probably because of her
00:28:05
because we wouldn't have had Gabby
00:28:07
quite, you know, as soon as we did after
00:28:10
Shauna had passed away and then
00:28:11
obviously having Brin. So, um, I kind of
00:28:15
look at it as a, you know, it was really
00:28:18
challenging times, but we've ended up
00:28:20
with two amazing kids and and, you know,
00:28:22
that's, you know, sometimes you you've
00:28:26
got to look at your the things that are
00:28:28
difficult in your life and and but also
00:28:30
try and transfer them into the
00:28:32
positives.
00:28:34
>> Do you do you ever get over the grief or
00:28:37
or does it just sort of sit with you
00:28:38
sort of permanently? Oh, I think that,
00:28:42
you know, we always light a um
00:28:45
sort of a candle um for a birthday in
00:28:48
January and January 17th and then and
00:28:52
one of May as well, you know. Um and
00:28:55
often
00:28:56
it's like everything. It's kind of it's
00:28:59
always there, but
00:29:02
and you know people say, you know, time
00:29:04
is a great healer and but you you never
00:29:07
forget it. It's your own personal thing
00:29:09
that um as a family um you're conscious
00:29:14
of and and you go through and you know
00:29:16
it's something that Trudy and I always
00:29:19
um find significant and remember um
00:29:23
uh and you know had a had a massive
00:29:25
impact um you know both challenging but
00:29:30
in a way positively positively in in our
00:29:33
lives as well. M
00:29:35
>> I wonder if in a way it it changed or
00:29:37
shaped the way that you raise um Gabby
00:29:38
and Brun and that you know what's on the
00:29:41
line and what you can lose and just you
00:29:44
know what I mean?
00:29:44
>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Um
00:29:50
you I suppose that you know you say
00:29:54
something and things that I'd said to my
00:29:56
kids that you know I met I you know said
00:29:58
to Gabby and Bren I said I don't care
00:30:01
where you are in the world what what's
00:30:03
happened you know if you get yourself in
00:30:04
trouble whatever you get on the phone
00:30:06
you ring me and I'll be there
00:30:08
>> and I kind of said and I meant it but
00:30:10
they they know that I meant that as well
00:30:12
you know in terms of they know how um
00:30:16
important they uh to to myself and Trudy
00:30:21
as a family uh how close we are and you
00:30:24
know just said um you even even now you
00:30:28
see Bin you know might not see each
00:30:29
other we're going we're going to Japan
00:30:30
for Christmas which I really looking
00:30:32
forward to and the first thing you know
00:30:33
give him a hug and maybe a kiss and how
00:30:35
much and he'll say big much you know so
00:30:37
um and those things are pretty cool
00:30:41
>> that's a you're you're a kissing couple
00:30:42
a kissing family
00:30:44
>> um yeah I think a hugging family Yeah.
00:30:46
Yeah.
00:30:47
>> It's cool. It's cool.
00:30:48
>> Oh, it's it's amazing. And um
00:30:52
uh you know I can I can I can never
00:30:56
remember uh I know my dad was really
00:30:58
proud of me but I can never remember my
00:31:00
dad saying to me love me or or hugging
00:31:02
me you know and even when we got old you
00:31:04
know we shook hands and stuff and when
00:31:06
we greeted each other but um
00:31:09
I think the thing is that
00:31:12
uh it was kind of like different and and
00:31:14
probably the fact that um you know I had
00:31:18
been I didn't worry what other people
00:31:20
thought and had been successful. It
00:31:22
gives you kind of a little bit more of a
00:31:23
license to be able to do things. And I
00:31:25
can remember um when Brim was at school
00:31:28
at Hamilton Boys and um our food bowl
00:31:31
used to be absolutely massive every week
00:31:34
cuz he'd have all his mates around and
00:31:36
we were close to town. We had a swimming
00:31:37
pool and stuff and Trudy would be
00:31:40
looking after them and you know and guys
00:31:41
like Tomati Martin who plays for the
00:31:43
Warriors you know he just bowl in the
00:31:44
front door and Bren him good mates and
00:31:48
you know we had so many people sort of
00:31:50
staying and things and you I'd be there
00:31:52
coming home and Bren come out and I just
00:31:54
give him a big hug in front of his mates
00:31:56
and it was kind of like you know those
00:31:58
you're talking sort of um you know 2013
00:32:02
sort of 11 and there those days sort of
00:32:04
in teenage boys soo you know, it's kind
00:32:07
of been seen as maybe not the thing to
00:32:09
do, but
00:32:11
>> when Bren and I were doing, they went,
00:32:12
"Oh, people sort of, oh, that's normal.
00:32:14
That's pretty cool."
00:32:15
>> And being able to show affection. And I
00:32:17
kind of thought it's a really trying to
00:32:20
set an example to people, not being
00:32:22
afraid to
00:32:23
>> to do those sort of things. the first
00:32:25
day when he when he came into to the
00:32:27
Chiefs there, they were in the gym and I
00:32:28
went and saw him and I just go and just
00:32:30
gave a big hug in front of all the
00:32:31
players and it just, you know, it wasn't
00:32:35
uh it was just something that was normal
00:32:37
for us, you know, and and and I think
00:32:39
you're trying to you're trying to sort
00:32:41
of kind of, you know, you're not being
00:32:43
stoic. There's nothing wrong with
00:32:44
showing emotion and um you know,
00:32:47
particularly with family members and and
00:32:49
I think, you know, like you said, you're
00:32:51
trying to set a good example for other
00:32:52
people as well.
00:32:53
>> That's cool. Yeah,
00:32:55
>> thanks so much for sharing all that
00:32:56
family stuff, especially the the Shauna
00:32:58
stuff. I'm sure it's not not that easy
00:32:59
to talk about.
00:33:00
>> Yeah, it was, you know, definitely tough
00:33:02
at the time, but um I said, you know,
00:33:04
time is a great healer, but
00:33:06
>> you kind of, you know,
00:33:08
>> it never goes away anyway.
00:33:10
>> You live with it.
00:33:10
>> Yeah.
00:33:11
>> Yeah. And the um the family trip to
00:33:13
Japan at Christmas, are are you doing
00:33:15
some doornocking? Looking for some jobs?
00:33:17
>> No, no, no. We're uh we were going to go
00:33:22
for a couple of weeks and then we said
00:33:23
we can get there for three. I think
00:33:24
we're going over on about the 12th of
00:33:27
>> December. We get to see um they they
00:33:30
start just before Christmas, so I think
00:33:31
the 13th or something. So,
00:33:34
>> get to see that game and then a game on
00:33:36
the 20th and one on the 27th or 28th and
00:33:39
then fly back um get back just before um
00:33:44
New Year's. So, um yeah, looking forward
00:33:46
to that. It's going to be bloody cold
00:33:48
over there. It does get, you know,
00:33:50
really extremes in weather. You know,
00:33:52
it's really, really hot in the summer
00:33:53
and really, really cold in the winter.
00:33:55
So, um, but, you know, looking forward
00:33:57
to spending a little bit of time with
00:33:59
him, um, over there.
00:34:01
>> Great place to visit, especially with a
00:34:03
with a bid a on every toilet. You go to
00:34:05
a toilet in Starbucks and there's a
00:34:06
bidet there.
00:34:07
>> Your butt's never been so clean.
00:34:09
>> I know. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:10
>> All right. Let's go back and talk about
00:34:12
some of the early years. Um, so I've got
00:34:14
this photo here of a young um a young
00:34:18
Warren Gatland. How are you the same and
00:34:20
how are you the man sitting in front of
00:34:22
me now? How is he the same? And how is
00:34:23
he different to that kid there?
00:34:26
>> Oh,
00:34:26
>> how old were you there? 15, 16?
00:34:28
>> No, that was 15. I would have been 18,
00:34:30
17, 18. Um,
00:34:35
oh, I I look
00:34:39
I loved my sport. Um,
00:34:42
and that's what drove me. I was
00:34:44
incredibly competitive as a as a kid.
00:34:46
Um,
00:34:48
and I don't think I don't think that's a
00:34:50
bad thing. I I always
00:34:54
kind of challenge I think there was a
00:34:56
period and a time where um with kids
00:34:59
growing up in New Zealand, you
00:35:00
everything was about participation
00:35:02
involved and there's nothing wrong with
00:35:03
that, but there are times where, you
00:35:05
know, life is about competition. life is
00:35:07
um you know things it's about winning
00:35:11
and losing at at times and and trying to
00:35:13
be successful. So as growing up as a kid
00:35:15
you know I was always
00:35:17
uh wanted to be on the winning team or
00:35:20
wanting to do things. So um and I found
00:35:23
myself um you know if we were playing a
00:35:26
game growing up and the score wasn't
00:35:30
being kept or a teacher would just
00:35:31
saying I I lost interest you know I kind
00:35:34
of and so
00:35:37
yeah I don't know where that came from
00:35:39
but you know definitely very very
00:35:41
competitive in anything that I did in
00:35:43
terms of sport and
00:35:45
>> um
00:35:46
>> and you know I was lucky enough from a
00:35:49
very early age to to go and play for
00:35:52
teams that were
00:35:55
pretty successful, you know, from even
00:35:57
from the early age of five sort of, you
00:35:59
know, happened to play in club sides
00:36:01
that were really successful and
00:36:04
um playing Gwen Shield and Rolling Mills
00:36:06
and then sort of um through um secondary
00:36:10
school and first of
00:36:14
secondary schools and and that um
00:36:18
yeah and so Um,
00:36:20
I was kind of driven and and I had,
00:36:25
you know, a big appetite for at the time
00:36:28
wasn't just wasn't just rugby. I loved
00:36:29
my cricket and kind of there was a
00:36:31
period where I was making a decision
00:36:33
which way I was going to go. Was it
00:36:35
going to be the rugby route or the or
00:36:36
the cricket route and um probably rugby
00:36:39
the opportunities in rugby just came
00:36:41
along just a little bit sooner than they
00:36:43
than they would have done in cricket.
00:36:45
God, you're another one of those e like
00:36:46
a a Jordy Barrett or a Jeff Wilson or
00:36:49
there's so many so many of you guys e
00:36:51
that are like just fantastic at both
00:36:53
these games.
00:36:54
>> Well, I think that in those days you
00:36:56
were able to do both. You know, it's
00:36:58
very difficult for
00:36:59
>> even for kids nowadays and you know the
00:37:01
sort of the the environments to to play
00:37:05
um at a high level in both those sports
00:37:08
and you still you still see some pretty
00:37:10
talented kids in terms of
00:37:12
>> doing those things. But yeah, still
00:37:14
still enjoy my cricket and watch my
00:37:15
cricket and and stuff. And
00:37:17
>> still roll an arm over. Okay.
00:37:18
>> Uh not anymore. No, no, not uh not not
00:37:23
really. But you know, still still do
00:37:25
enjoy watching it. Yeah.
00:37:26
>> I' I've got a quote here from Andrew
00:37:28
Strawbridge, who you've known since you
00:37:29
were 7 years old.
00:37:31
>> Um he was a pretty talented bloke. He
00:37:33
was a very good cricketer opening the
00:37:35
batting, keeping wicket, and bowling
00:37:37
fast. If he had the same passion for
00:37:39
cricket as he did rugby, I'm sure he
00:37:40
could have made it in that. Oh yeah. Oh
00:37:43
okay.
00:37:45
>> Yeah. He was a pretty talented sportsman
00:37:46
himself. Um straws in terms of uh
00:37:50
cricket and cricket and rugby. Yeah.
00:37:53
>> But the rugby ended up all right. Um the
00:37:55
fourth most capped wet player ever with
00:37:57
140. Uh number one on that list Fuzzy
00:38:00
with 148. Yeah.
00:38:02
>> It's a hell of a career. Uh yeah. So you
00:38:04
guys were teammates for nine seasons.
00:38:06
Won the NPC together in 1992. Is that
00:38:09
the greatest WA rugby team of all time?
00:38:12
The 1992 team.
00:38:13
>> Oh, I think it would have to be up
00:38:15
there. 1992, 1993.
00:38:17
I think we won the the Shield. But I
00:38:21
remember I remember winning the but we
00:38:23
played Oakland in the semi-final Eden
00:38:24
Park and I think the most 92 93 probably
00:38:29
two significant years that you know
00:38:31
playing Oakland uh in a semi-final in
00:38:36
' 92 in Eden Park and then uh for the
00:38:38
Shield in in 93 and they never scored a
00:38:40
try in both those games and and uh
00:38:43
remember talking to Zen Zanbrook and
00:38:45
when we won the semi-final in 92 and he
00:38:47
said you know if it had been his Shield
00:38:49
game you wouldn't have won and I kind
00:38:50
kept that in the back of my mind for for
00:38:52
another another 12 months. But but also
00:38:57
uh got to recognize that what a great
00:39:02
Oakland team that was. And I can
00:39:04
remember my first game
00:39:06
um
00:39:08
playing against Oakland for the Shield
00:39:10
uh I think it would have been about 87
00:39:12
or something like that. And and we were
00:39:13
a young team and we knew that um
00:39:16
potentially if we stayed together that
00:39:18
team was going to get better and and
00:39:21
Oakland put 30 odd points on us and and
00:39:24
and beat us comfortably at Eden Park.
00:39:27
And but for me as a person, you know, I
00:39:29
I just learned so much and I kind of
00:39:31
went after the game went, "Oh my god, I
00:39:34
want to play them next week." And
00:39:36
because that was my I had an insatiable
00:39:39
appetite for knowledge, but also for
00:39:40
wanting to improve and how did we
00:39:42
improve and you know, I learned so much
00:39:43
there. and then kind of like
00:39:46
um whether it was Kings uh or Queen's
00:39:51
birthday weekend used to you know play
00:39:53
Oakland and in those days and maybe and
00:39:55
then obviously in the NPC and so you get
00:39:58
to play them a couple of times and was
00:40:00
was all about just closing that gap and
00:40:02
trying to trying to learn and and gain
00:40:04
more experience and then obviously um
00:40:07
you know we had a we had some pretty
00:40:09
good years in those those sort of early
00:40:11
90s. Mhm. God, you must have been like a
00:40:14
rock star in Hamilton at the time. I
00:40:15
spent a bit of time living in Hamilton
00:40:16
and you know, you see the the the rugby
00:40:19
guys go out with their blazers on a
00:40:20
Saturday to the outback or the bank or
00:40:22
whatever. Um, yeah, you must have been
00:40:24
like a like a god and white at the time.
00:40:27
>> Oh, I don't know. I think um
00:40:30
uh what I loved about
00:40:33
sort of the the white cattle was just
00:40:35
how passionate uh they were as you know
00:40:38
supporters and fans and even the even um
00:40:43
uh playing playing the Lions and um you
00:40:46
know in terms of um
00:40:50
um
00:40:52
yeah we played them 93 um and and won
00:40:57
comfortably But probably it was a
00:40:59
Wednesday afternoon before the third
00:41:01
test u for the Lions tour and we're
00:41:05
probably the only place in in the
00:41:06
country at the time that on a Wednesday
00:41:08
afternoon help us too could could fill a
00:41:10
stadium you know because of the support
00:41:12
and the obviously the farming community
00:41:14
and and the people used to get in behind
00:41:16
us. So, um, yeah, look, they were always
00:41:20
very passionate supporters and and
00:41:23
incredibly loyal and, um, you know, I
00:41:26
think as you as you get a little bit
00:41:29
older and as you sort of go through
00:41:31
those stages in terms of your playing
00:41:33
and and coaching and stuff, you you you
00:41:35
recognize and you appreciate that the
00:41:38
game that you've played and have been
00:41:41
involved in their love is is there there
00:41:44
are bigger parts to it and And sometimes
00:41:47
um
00:41:49
there's bigger things in the game and
00:41:51
then and often the fans and the
00:41:53
supporters, they need to be recognized.
00:41:55
And we we're going through some pretty
00:41:58
challenging times at the moment about,
00:42:00
you know, how do you how do you promote
00:42:04
the game? How do you make it more
00:42:05
exciting? What sort of things can you do
00:42:07
to to um to make sure people people are
00:42:12
involved? and and uh you I was lucky
00:42:14
enough to spend three weeks in Australia
00:42:16
with the the uh the Lions there and you
00:42:20
know to see the the Lion supporters and
00:42:22
the fans and stuff and and and
00:42:25
I just read a few days ago that
00:42:27
basically it's cleared the debt for
00:42:30
um for Australian rug rugby you know
00:42:33
that's how important the Lions tours are
00:42:35
to the New Zealand uh to the to the
00:42:37
southern hemis we need to do from a
00:42:40
rugby perspect everything we can to to
00:42:43
support it and and people in Australia
00:42:46
and South Africa and New Zealand, they
00:42:48
appreciate, they understand how
00:42:49
important it is. But there are certain
00:42:51
people um who I was involved with the
00:42:55
Lions when uh I think there were 12 or
00:42:58
14 games and then that went down to 10
00:43:00
and I think it's now it's eight games
00:43:02
and there there are people who would you
00:43:04
know like that to like to see that down
00:43:06
to five or six games and I think it
00:43:08
would completely destroy what a Lions
00:43:09
tour is all about where you know you get
00:43:11
the kind of five warm-up games and and
00:43:15
the three tests and you end up with
00:43:16
about eight games and then maybe there's
00:43:17
a warm-up game and and and and and I
00:43:19
think about 10 games on a tour tour is
00:43:22
about right. It's it's kind of like it
00:43:24
is long enough. Um but the impact that
00:43:28
uh Alliance Tour can have on supporters,
00:43:31
promoting the game, creating interest,
00:43:34
creating superstars and and you know
00:43:37
both the home country and and you know
00:43:39
potentially in
00:43:41
um the UK and Ireland um and and
00:43:46
financially um being a a stimulus for
00:43:50
the country that's hosting the uh those
00:43:52
tours. you know, it it's it can be
00:43:54
really important.
00:43:56
>> Yeah. We'll um we'll we'll get into your
00:43:58
involvement with um the Lions shortly,
00:44:00
but um yeah, you made the All Blacks
00:44:03
from uh WCO after playing a game against
00:44:06
Wales of all teams.
00:44:08
>> Yeah, I think
00:44:08
>> having a blinder for WCO against Wales.
00:44:10
Is that correct?
00:44:11
>> Yeah, I think we were a young team at
00:44:12
the time and Wales had just won um
00:44:17
actually won the Triple Crown. So
00:44:18
they've beaten um
00:44:21
uh England um Ireland and Scotland. Um
00:44:26
yeah, so I think that was the first game
00:44:27
of tour. I actually kept that day and um
00:44:31
um yeah, it was um you know it was a it
00:44:35
was good. I remember Glenn Webb the the
00:44:39
black um Welsh winger and it was you
00:44:42
know it was a coldish day in in
00:44:45
Hamilton. not, you know, probably not as
00:44:47
cold as you normally get in uh in Wales
00:44:49
and he was wearing these white gloves
00:44:51
and stuff and I kind of went, "Oh, hell,
00:44:52
what's going on here?" But uh that was a
00:44:55
little bit different for me. Um yeah,
00:44:58
but we were lucky enough to win that
00:44:59
game. In fairness,
00:45:01
I I think um
00:45:04
probably our record for a record against
00:45:07
touring teams, you know, was pretty good
00:45:09
over the years. Yeah.
00:45:10
>> So, how do you do did you get a phone
00:45:12
call from Grizz Wy? Were you were you in
00:45:14
the sort of all black sort of sphere at
00:45:16
the time? Were you in the frame or were
00:45:17
you like a surprise pick? How do you how
00:45:19
do you find out about it? Do you hear
00:45:20
about on the radio or do you get a phone
00:45:22
call?
00:45:23
>> Um no, it's kind of the on the radio.
00:45:26
Yeah, it's kind of like um in those
00:45:29
days, you know, you never really got
00:45:30
phone calls and and
00:45:32
um I I enjoy that. One of the things
00:45:34
that I introduced um
00:45:38
when I became sort of Lions coach and
00:45:40
even with Wales with World Cups is kind
00:45:42
of how do you how do you make this how
00:45:43
do you create sort of attention? How do
00:45:46
you make this uh occasion sort of
00:45:48
something really special and
00:45:51
um and that's what happened. you you
00:45:54
either heard an all black team announced
00:45:56
on live on TV or you heard it on on the
00:45:59
radio and that was kind of and that was
00:46:01
what created that sort of that jeopardy
00:46:04
almost in terms of that creating that
00:46:06
excitement. Um
00:46:09
so yeah, look had a um orbit troll in in
00:46:13
' 88 and um I I I think I was reasonably
00:46:18
close at the after the World Cup in 87
00:46:20
to to going to Japan and and wasn't
00:46:22
selected and then in ' 88 um you know
00:46:27
had an allback trial went pretty well
00:46:28
and got selected for tour of Australia
00:46:31
and you think about how things have
00:46:33
changed. I think we went there. Uh 13
00:46:36
games, 26 players.
00:46:38
>> Um Alex Wally is coach. Um
00:46:42
John Sturgeon is manager. And then
00:46:44
you've got you um
00:46:47
doctor and physio, you know. So um
00:46:50
>> it's a compact team.
00:46:51
>> Yeah. Yeah. Basically four, you know. Um
00:46:56
and John May actually was the um the
00:46:58
doctor. He's unfortunately passed away
00:47:00
now. He was brilliant. Um
00:47:03
um
00:47:05
yeah and then you think um John
00:47:07
Gallagher who was the fullback I think
00:47:08
he played 12 of the 13 matches on tour
00:47:10
and so yeah those are you know
00:47:13
definitely a lot different to and I was
00:47:16
lucky enough to sort of you know have
00:47:17
four years and um you know be involved
00:47:21
in on a few tours but you know never got
00:47:24
on the um on the pitch set behind
00:47:26
Footsie for for a lot of test matches
00:47:29
but um And I and I think and people say,
00:47:32
"Oh, you are you disappointed with
00:47:34
that?" And I've never been disappointed.
00:47:36
I I kind of am really proud and honored
00:47:40
for the the opportunities I had and
00:47:42
experiences I had. Um, and it kind of
00:47:45
made me
00:47:47
uh when the coaching opportunities come,
00:47:49
I think it made me a better coach. It
00:47:51
made me understand,
00:47:53
you know, a player could never
00:47:55
turn around to me and say, "Oh, you
00:47:57
don't know what it's like not to be
00:47:58
selected to be in there." Hang on a
00:47:59
minute. I
00:48:01
I know exactly what it's like to to miss
00:48:03
out. But then it's kind of then it's
00:48:06
that learning experience, you know, how
00:48:08
do you respond to that disappointment?
00:48:09
You got to be disappointed because and I
00:48:11
expect players that I've coached in
00:48:13
volunte,
00:48:15
you know, pissed off and I expect them
00:48:16
to be disappointed they haven't been
00:48:17
selected in um in teams. But then the
00:48:22
thing is then it's how you respond to
00:48:24
that. you know, someone who throws the
00:48:25
toys out of the cot and mopes around and
00:48:28
it's got the head down for three or four
00:48:30
days, you know, they they're in serious
00:48:33
trouble of not being involved in the
00:48:35
future. But a player who's yeah,
00:48:37
disappointed, you know, he's
00:48:38
disappointed, but then he goes, "Okay,
00:48:40
right. I'm going to I'm going to respond
00:48:42
really really positively in terms of
00:48:45
doing everything I can to help this team
00:48:46
prepare for uh the weekend and get get
00:48:50
the team in the best possible shape to
00:48:52
perform on on that weekend. Um players
00:48:55
don't realize that that not just coaches
00:48:57
but management teams they they see that
00:49:01
and and it does have a can have a really
00:49:05
significant impact on on future
00:49:07
selections. you know, particularly if
00:49:08
you ever ever in a, you know, 50/50
00:49:11
situation where you're not quite sure,
00:49:13
but you've got someone who's a a really
00:49:15
good team man and really really positive
00:49:17
around the environment, really
00:49:19
supportive and does lots of things, you
00:49:21
know, those they're the people you want
00:49:23
in your teams.
00:49:24
>> Yeah. Just sort of attitude.
00:49:25
>> Absolutely.
00:49:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's a quote from you
00:49:27
that I read. Um, being behind Fitzy was
00:49:29
the biggest education of my career. Is
00:49:31
that sort of what you mean?
00:49:32
>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was
00:49:34
um and you know he was a fantastic
00:49:38
player,
00:49:41
unbelievable all black, you know, great
00:49:44
all black captain as well in terms of
00:49:45
the success he had. But, you know, I
00:49:47
learned a huge amount playing against
00:49:49
him. And I was probably, you know, I'm
00:49:51
pretty proud. I probably played um had
00:49:54
more wins against him as a as a hooker
00:49:56
than probably anyone else in in in world
00:49:58
rugby you know over over that period of
00:50:00
my rugby career you know in terms of
00:50:01
white kid in Oakuckland and other games
00:50:04
and all black trials and stuff and um
00:50:06
you know he was tough and physical and
00:50:09
you know made me
00:50:11
>> made me better as a player and and I
00:50:13
hope at the time I made him better as a
00:50:14
player as well.
00:50:16
>> What was he what was he like to you? He
00:50:17
was ruthlessly competitive. Was he was
00:50:20
he supportive or did he
00:50:22
>> So was I. Yeah.
00:50:23
>> But but did he was he supportive and
00:50:25
nurturing or did he see you as a threat?
00:50:27
And
00:50:27
>> Oh, and I think there was I think there
00:50:28
was mutual respect. You know, we
00:50:31
>> um you know, we got on well enough, but
00:50:34
I I find times are times are changed,
00:50:37
you know. I I see um the relationship
00:50:40
between players now and teams, you know,
00:50:42
been players who are competing in the
00:50:44
same position. you see how matey they
00:50:46
are and they're all civil. Probably in
00:50:48
our day was a little bit more cutthroat.
00:50:50
You know, if you were in the same
00:50:51
position, you'd be uh civil to each
00:50:54
other, but you were, you know, you'd
00:50:55
want to um you'd want to be taking
00:50:59
someone's position. But in saying that,
00:51:01
you know, I never wished uh an an injury
00:51:04
on anyone. And the All Blacks is
00:51:06
probably the hardest environment to be
00:51:08
involved in because I was involved in a
00:51:10
period where I think we went 50 there
00:51:12
was 50 odd matches undefeated. Um it's
00:51:15
just when which is amazing when you
00:51:17
think of sort of 87 to 1990 you know the
00:51:20
hadn't lost a
00:51:21
>> lost a match a test match or or a game
00:51:23
on tour and then kind of thinking you
00:51:26
know the way for me at the time was you
00:51:29
know how do I become number one well
00:51:31
either the player that um I'm up against
00:51:36
um gets injured or the All Blacks lose
00:51:40
and you don't want to be involved in an
00:51:42
All Black situation or you know it's
00:51:44
going to be, you know, fairly difficult
00:51:46
and and quite challenging to um, you
00:51:50
know, to get selected for yourself. So,
00:51:52
yeah, like a a real learning experience
00:51:54
over a long period for me.
00:51:56
>> What was Grizz like? Was he terrifying?
00:51:58
>> He was tough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was
00:52:01
uh
00:52:04
Yeah, I can remember. Uh, he trained us
00:52:07
incredibly hard, you Hey, like I I kind
00:52:10
of I probably had three coaches who who
00:52:14
had
00:52:15
had the most significant impact on me in
00:52:18
terms of my one one was definitely Grizz
00:52:20
cuz Grizz was uncompromising. If he saw
00:52:23
a weakness, he would
00:52:25
um push you to the limit where he almost
00:52:28
tried to break you and but he it was me
00:52:30
it was a mental toughness. It was kind
00:52:32
of like, you know, he he understood um
00:52:38
trying to get the best out of you. You
00:52:39
go away on an all black tour and
00:52:42
you would train early on that tour. He
00:52:46
he'd push your train and then when it
00:52:47
come towards the test matches, he'd ease
00:52:49
up and he'd freshen guys up and things
00:52:50
and he he you know, he definitely
00:52:52
understood that, but
00:52:55
it was important you didn't show any
00:52:56
weaknesses. he wanted he wanted people
00:52:58
that were mentally tough and um so I
00:53:01
learned a huge amount from that and then
00:53:02
the other two were um Kevin Green uh who
00:53:07
coached way and I I thought his man
00:53:10
management skills were excellent the way
00:53:12
that he got the best out of people um
00:53:15
and the way he kind of motivated and and
00:53:18
the environment that he created was
00:53:20
outstanding and Glenn Ross was another
00:53:21
one who coached me at first 15 at
00:53:24
Hamilton boys and Hamilton all boys and
00:53:27
also with Wetto and probably he was the
00:53:30
first guy that I saw was
00:53:33
uh the most professional you teaching
00:53:35
background but incredibly well prepared
00:53:38
in training sessions. you go into, you
00:53:40
knew exactly how long the training
00:53:42
session was going to be, you know, what
00:53:43
the what the drills were were going to
00:53:45
be. And that to me was that organization
00:53:48
kind of had like had a kind of a big
00:53:50
impact because we'd come through a
00:53:52
period where you'd go to training, you
00:53:55
never really even with Grizz, you never
00:53:57
really knew how long the training
00:53:58
session was going to be for and how hard
00:54:00
he was going to do and then how long
00:54:03
each drill was going to be. Um and so
00:54:06
yeah those you know definitely he was
00:54:09
was tough um had had a lot of respect
00:54:12
for him in terms of you know what he had
00:54:14
done in the game and what he achieved
00:54:16
and and definitely learned a lot from
00:54:18
him from from my main coaching career.
00:54:22
>> What what what's your proudest moment as
00:54:24
an all black? Is there anything that
00:54:26
springs to mind? Oh. Um,
00:54:34
I've never been asked that question
00:54:35
before.
00:54:36
>> Yeah. Uh,
00:54:39
yeah. I think
00:54:42
I think just being being selected. I
00:54:45
think I can remember um
00:54:49
once once being on sitting on the bus in
00:54:52
all black bus and there was all these um
00:54:54
supporters around and and they're
00:54:56
wanting autographs and photos and stuff
00:54:58
and I can remember sitting there and
00:55:00
just going,
00:55:02
you know, just don't take this for
00:55:04
granted. Uh you have, you know, how
00:55:07
lucky you are to be in this situation.
00:55:09
And I used to kind of remind me myself
00:55:11
of of those sorts of things, you know,
00:55:14
just um
00:55:17
yeah, so probably just that opportunity
00:55:20
to be involved to to put that jersey on
00:55:24
to to to call yourself an all black, you
00:55:27
know, that those are my proudest
00:55:28
moments. Yeah.
00:55:30
>> I had um you um a guy on the podcast the
00:55:32
other day who's your your career crossed
00:55:35
paths with, Freno Bodica. Yeah. Um, and
00:55:37
he what was the he was called something?
00:55:40
Um, and I'm guessing you were the same.
00:55:41
Like a guy that a guy that was in the
00:55:42
team but not playing.
00:55:43
>> Yeah.
00:55:44
>> What were you called? There's a name for
00:55:45
it.
00:55:46
>> Dirty dirty.
00:55:46
>> Dirty dirty. Yeah. Dirty dirty. And I
00:55:48
said, "Why? What's a dirty dirty?" And
00:55:50
he had never really thought about it,
00:55:51
but he said, "I think it's because we're
00:55:53
lower than the dirt."
00:55:55
>> But I don't know. What? What is a dirty
00:55:56
dirty?
00:55:57
>> I don't know what the dirty I don't know
00:55:58
where that came from. Just the dirty
00:55:59
Yeah. dirty duties. Yeah. But it sounds
00:56:01
like you guys were just pissed all the
00:56:03
time like going out casing out what bars
00:56:05
to go to for the test guys on the
00:56:07
weekend.
00:56:08
>> Well, sometimes those you did those
00:56:10
things. Yeah. Kind of like uh or if you
00:56:13
weren't involved. It didn't matter if
00:56:15
you you know you had midweek games. The
00:56:17
guys that weren't involved the next day
00:56:20
tended to go out on the night before.
00:56:22
you know that that never happens
00:56:24
nowadays because we see so many occasion
00:56:26
where someone wakes up sick or someone's
00:56:29
uh you know hasn't quite recovered from
00:56:31
an injury or something like that but um
00:56:34
yeah it was kind of like you went out
00:56:38
yeah I mean it kind of those days was it
00:56:42
was a little bit
00:56:44
um um this was a bit of the grizz of
00:56:48
philosophy and some of the you know you
00:56:51
trained hard, you played hard, and you
00:56:53
sort of kind of drank hard. That was
00:56:54
kind of like um and then you fronted up
00:56:57
the next day and you trained every day.
00:56:59
And that was kind of like that was the
00:57:02
almost that mental toughness and you you
00:57:06
knew
00:57:08
you knew the pressures of being an all
00:57:10
black, what it meant, you knew the
00:57:11
responsibilities putting that jersey on,
00:57:14
um and the history and those sorts of
00:57:16
things. Um
00:57:18
probably today some you know the people
00:57:21
aren't quite as aware as as aware of the
00:57:24
past and you know what went before them
00:57:26
and um you but definitely during that
00:57:30
period you knew um yeah and as a dirty
00:57:33
dirty you you sometimes went out there
00:57:35
and had to yeah you had to make
00:57:37
different sacrifices
00:57:40
>> to for the team. um on on reflection
00:57:43
like do you think you were you've been a
00:57:44
better player or a coach?
00:57:47
>> Uh
00:57:49
I think my experience has made me a
00:57:51
better coach, you know, definitely. Um
00:57:54
>> and I've played with some some great
00:57:58
players and some great All Blacks who um
00:58:03
went into the went into coaching but
00:58:06
never made it as coaches. And and I
00:58:08
think a part of that was that they never
00:58:11
knew why they were great players. And um
00:58:16
and I I found I found that. I mean, I
00:58:20
started kind of at a really young age,
00:58:22
you know, like I said, that time in
00:58:24
Ireland. I was a player coach at 25, 24,
00:58:27
25.
00:58:28
And and that for me was really um
00:58:33
significant because there was a lot of
00:58:35
things that I was doing that I didn't
00:58:38
not say so I didn't understand I was
00:58:40
just doing instinctively or naturally
00:58:42
because I did and I kind of had to take
00:58:44
myself and go oh why am I running that
00:58:47
line why am I doing that why why have I
00:58:50
done that and that that to me was really
00:58:53
was quite significant in terms of uh
00:58:56
coaching and understanding and um
00:59:01
you know teaching players things because
00:59:03
I really had to take myself back in
00:59:05
terms of uh asking myself a lot of those
00:59:09
a lot of those things. So yeah look um
00:59:13
yeah I was a better player than Fitzy
00:59:20
I've got to believe that you see
00:59:22
>> let it go.
00:59:25
Um, yeah. So, at the time we're
00:59:27
recording this, it's only been um seven
00:59:29
months. Seven months since you finished
00:59:31
with Wales.
00:59:32
>> Yeah. Beginning of the year.
00:59:34
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:34
>> Yeah. How does it feel to suddenly wake
00:59:36
up without responsibility or pressure?
00:59:39
>> Oh, it feels good.
00:59:40
>> Yeah.
00:59:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um
00:59:42
>> like a relief weight off your shoulders.
00:59:44
>> Oh, I kind of I I I love the pressure. I
00:59:50
love the um
00:59:54
the responsibility and stuff and I I
00:59:57
thrive on that and I thrive on being
00:59:59
involved with teams that have been
01:00:00
underdogs and stuff. Um what I what I
01:00:03
struggled with um
01:00:06
was
01:00:07
I struggle with the negativity in the
01:00:09
end and I kind of went and
01:00:12
>> Is that from the media or the public?
01:00:14
>> Yeah, it was definitely the media. Um,
01:00:16
and I kind of went there there's a
01:00:19
there's a guy who's taken a guy called
01:00:20
Steve Tandy and and I think that um
01:00:24
he'll do a good job. He but he needs
01:00:26
some time and I hope they give him the
01:00:28
time. And it's not that the rugby people
01:00:30
won't give him the time. It's not the
01:00:31
union won't give them. I just hope the
01:00:32
media given that time because um and I
01:00:36
think that when I first went back so
01:00:40
finished in two 2019 we made the
01:00:42
semi-final in the World Cup being beaten
01:00:44
in the last sort of
01:00:45
>> minute with a with a penalty goal from
01:00:48
um Paula
01:00:50
um you know lost in the last couple of
01:00:53
minutes to the semi-final
01:00:55
>> and
01:00:57
so I finished and when I've come back um
01:01:00
into 2022 two and start 23. I went, "Oh,
01:01:03
we're in a little bit of trouble here."
01:01:05
>> And we haven't had a great Six Nation,
01:01:07
poor Six Nations. So, everyone's writing
01:01:10
us off for the World Cup. And what I've
01:01:13
loved about the World Cup and I'm proud
01:01:16
of um times that I had involved with
01:01:18
with club sides is that three months
01:01:21
together, sort of two or three months
01:01:22
together preparation that time and we've
01:01:25
ended up winning our group in the World
01:01:26
Cup um quarterfinal. we should have
01:01:28
beaten Argentina in the the
01:01:30
quarterfinal.
01:01:32
Um,
01:01:34
and
01:01:35
but I didn't get a lot of credit for
01:01:37
that. And then we've gone we've lost 18
01:01:39
players after the World Cup. They have
01:01:41
either retired or finished or or gone
01:01:43
and played overseas. And and I've just
01:01:46
said this is going to take a little bit
01:01:47
of time. And um some of the some of the
01:01:50
well journalists who were criticizing us
01:01:52
before the World Cup and said we
01:01:54
wouldn't get out of a group kind of
01:01:56
didn't really give us any credit. And
01:01:57
then you go on a little bit of a losing
01:02:00
streak cuz you know it's going to take
01:02:02
some time and there's a few games yeah
01:02:03
we were in a position to win and we
01:02:05
didn't get over the line and um and I
01:02:08
just after the the negativity and I
01:02:11
thought I need to take some pressure off
01:02:13
the players and maybe some pressure off
01:02:15
the union and I just wake up you one day
01:02:17
I went actually I don't need this in my
01:02:19
life anymore. You know I kind of I've
01:02:21
been through enough. Uh I love coaching.
01:02:24
I love being involved. Um, and
01:02:28
the game has been brilliant to me, but
01:02:30
there's a there's a time where you got
01:02:31
to actually make a decide for yourself,
01:02:34
you know, in terms of do you need to, it
01:02:37
wasn't just about me. It was kind of I
01:02:38
was I felt I was making the decision for
01:02:40
the best thing for Welsh Rugby as well
01:02:42
at the time. And
01:02:43
>> um, and haven't regretted it, you know,
01:02:46
I just kind of um
01:02:49
um,
01:02:50
yeah, so they're going through a
01:02:52
rebuilding phase. And what probably a
01:02:54
lot of people don't realize is that the
01:02:57
issues that they're there now they're
01:02:58
talking about you are they going to
01:02:59
reduce the four professional teams down
01:03:02
to two and you know what's going to
01:03:04
happen with themies and there was a
01:03:07
national academy that we had that had
01:03:08
been disbanded for a number of years and
01:03:10
that had been successful.
01:03:12
Um
01:03:14
so
01:03:16
um but the success that we had over a
01:03:19
period we're there
01:03:22
we knew we knew we were papering over
01:03:23
the cracks that were that were there and
01:03:26
and
01:03:28
>> when we said when things when the dam
01:03:30
bursts which it has uh it's going to
01:03:34
take a while to to fix it up and and I
01:03:36
think that's
01:03:38
they've been through this thing in the
01:03:40
past where they had unbelievable able
01:03:42
success um in the late 60s and the 70s
01:03:46
and and then they had um teacher strike
01:03:50
in Wales which really impacted the the
01:03:53
the the game it's school boy level um
01:03:57
and that had a quite a negative impact
01:04:00
on the game in the 80s and 90s and I
01:04:03
think it was you know from having been
01:04:06
amazingly successful in the late 60s and
01:04:08
70s I mean they didn't win a six nations
01:04:11
until 200 2005, you know, when um Steve
01:04:15
Hansen was there. Um
01:04:18
so, um yeah, it'll be actually Steve
01:04:21
Hansen had already finished him. I think
01:04:23
Mike Ruddic had won that um the
01:04:27
Six Nations in 2005. So, yeah, you know,
01:04:30
they it might take them a little bit of
01:04:33
time again.
01:04:34
>> Are um Yeah, you mentioned Steve Hansen
01:04:36
there. Are you guys friends? I found a
01:04:38
photo of um you and him on on online. Is
01:04:40
is that after the 15 all Is that after
01:04:43
the 15 all draw?
01:04:45
>> I'm not sure of it. Uh
01:04:46
>> looks like a very awkward passing
01:04:48
handshake.
01:04:50
>> Was probably just the uh you know
01:04:51
someone
01:04:52
>> the angle or the moment. Yeah.
01:04:53
>> Yeah. I can remember um Yeah, that could
01:04:56
mean just us walking away or something
01:04:58
like that. I don't think
01:05:01
>> Yeah. or you know I don't know if you
01:05:02
know what it like I mean I see so many
01:05:04
photos myself and I think photographers
01:05:07
they take every single reaction or photo
01:05:10
whatever and depending on the story that
01:05:12
they want to write they'll you know
01:05:13
they'll they'll try and match up the
01:05:15
match up the photo. So I remember
01:05:17
talking to Steve after after um the
01:05:22
Lions and 217 and he you know he said to
01:05:25
me afterwards he said um how you
01:05:27
feeling? I said I don't know what I
01:05:28
said. What are yourself? And he said it
01:05:30
feels a bit like kissing your sister,
01:05:31
doesn't it? I kind of went not sure
01:05:33
about that, but uh um you know, in terms
01:05:36
of uh
01:05:39
yeah, you know, a drawn series for the
01:05:41
Lions. But I think
01:05:43
um the the the thing about that drawn
01:05:46
series in in 217 is that again
01:05:51
um I think the most amazing thing about
01:05:54
that thing is is
01:05:56
the photo at the end of the third test
01:05:59
>> and you've got Sam Wland and Kieran Reed
01:06:01
holding the trophy where the Lions
01:06:03
players and the All Blacks intermingle
01:06:05
and to me that to me is a is going to be
01:06:08
a rugby photograph for the ages. It's an
01:06:11
iconic picture and if if the Lions had
01:06:14
have won or the All Blacks had have won,
01:06:15
we we never would have seen that um that
01:06:19
image, we never would have seen that
01:06:20
picture of the two teams um on stage
01:06:23
together and and and that kind of like I
01:06:26
I spoke before about
01:06:28
>> you know things are better bigger than
01:06:30
the game and to me that's that that's an
01:06:32
unbelievable um picture that represents
01:06:35
what the game's all about. M would you
01:06:37
still like to be in involved in the All
01:06:39
Blacks in some capacity or is that that
01:06:41
has that ship sailed?
01:06:42
>> Yeah, I think it's it's it sailed. I get
01:06:44
asked a lot about um
01:06:49
about um
01:06:52
um being involved in the I'm I'm a great
01:06:56
believer in what will be um I don't I
01:06:59
don't think ahead. I don't sort of plan
01:07:02
ahead. There are there are I know there
01:07:04
are people who have you know kind of
01:07:07
have had the goals and trying to planned
01:07:09
out their what their journey is going to
01:07:12
be what their their coaching. I haven't
01:07:15
never done that. I kind of thought if
01:07:18
you've been successful um somewhere then
01:07:21
opportunities will come along. Um I'm
01:07:23
probably
01:07:25
the only person who's been involved in
01:07:27
the game as long as I who's never had a
01:07:29
rugby agent.
01:07:31
>> Wow.
01:07:32
>> Yeah. You've done all your own
01:07:33
negotiations.
01:07:34
>> All my own negotiations.
01:07:36
>> How do you know you're not getting
01:07:36
screwed over?
01:07:38
>> Don't know.
01:07:40
>> Kind of know. I think I know what I'm
01:07:41
worth and Yeah. And then sort of
01:07:43
negotiate that.
01:07:45
>> Yeah. Like you talk to a lot of people.
01:07:47
Everyone sort of
01:07:47
>> You got a fair idea.
01:07:48
>> Yeah. You got an idea what what you're
01:07:50
worth. Um
01:07:51
>> [ __ ] You're saving a lot on agents fe.
01:07:55
>> Yeah. Um
01:07:56
>> good for you.
01:07:56
>> So I've never had an agent. uh and
01:08:01
I've um haven't got a CV. I've never
01:08:03
applied for a job and kind of so I've
01:08:07
been incredibly lucky. And
01:08:10
so um like I said, you know, great
01:08:13
believer in what will be will be and and
01:08:16
not planning too far ahead. And if
01:08:19
you're successful, opportunities come
01:08:20
your way. And if you're not um and I'm
01:08:23
lucky enough I've had great experiences,
01:08:26
have been successful. you know, had
01:08:27
challenging times, but rugby has been
01:08:31
a big part of myself and my family's
01:08:34
life, and it's given us those those
01:08:36
opportunities to have security, to be
01:08:39
able to travel around the world, and um
01:08:41
and you know, have have opportunities in
01:08:43
the future. And so if I don't do
01:08:46
anything again, um but I'm sure I will.
01:08:49
Um
01:08:51
you I might spend the next uh few years
01:08:53
spending as much time with the
01:08:55
grandkids, doing as much travel as I can
01:08:57
with myself and Trudy and and making
01:08:59
sure my kids are in the best possible
01:09:02
space, you know, space possible
01:09:04
>> because you're still very young on the
01:09:05
big scheme of things. I think you're the
01:09:06
same age now as what Sir Graham Henry
01:09:07
was when he finished with the All
01:09:08
Blacks,
01:09:10
>> right?
01:09:10
>> Yeah.
01:09:12
>> Yeah. I don't Yeah.
01:09:14
What's what's the closest you've you've
01:09:15
come to being um involved with the All
01:09:17
Blacks? Have there been like phone calls
01:09:18
or people reaching out over the years?
01:09:20
Oh, I've had um
01:09:23
I've had uh I think there there have
01:09:26
been times when uh they've been looking
01:09:29
for all the coaches where they've been
01:09:32
contacting all the all the coaches in
01:09:34
the world and um but a lot of people
01:09:37
would didn't put their names forward in
01:09:39
things and um I think they've changed
01:09:42
their philosophy on that thinking at the
01:09:44
time I you know they might contact
01:09:46
myself I might contact eight or 10 other
01:09:49
people you We want you to put your name
01:09:50
forward for the All Blacks position. But
01:09:53
it's one of those there that
01:09:57
if anyone finds out that you've put your
01:09:59
name forward for the All Blacks and then
01:10:02
you don't get the role
01:10:04
and then you go somewhere else, I well
01:10:06
the All Black's my first choice. You're
01:10:08
only my second choice.
01:10:09
>> It's a really delicate Yeah. delicate
01:10:13
sort of situation that so I think you
01:10:16
know I think they've changed their
01:10:18
philosophy where they may target just
01:10:20
one or two people in terms of the roles
01:10:23
um going forward because I was involved
01:10:26
in a situation where as contact I never
01:10:28
put my name forward and I know a number
01:10:29
of other coaches because of that
01:10:32
scenario I was talking about you know
01:10:33
never put their names forward in terms
01:10:35
of uh applying for an all black coaching
01:10:38
position. M.
01:10:40
>> So, never say never to anything involved
01:10:42
with coaching.
01:10:43
>> No, I think you've always got to keep
01:10:44
your options open. You know, that's
01:10:47
that's the um the thing, you know, it's
01:10:51
um you know, I finished with Wales. I
01:10:54
was going to come back home. Um we had
01:10:57
some time as a family planned. Um we
01:11:01
were going to spend some time in Spain
01:11:04
and France. Um, Brun had some mates that
01:11:07
he went to school with. Um, and they
01:11:10
were all over there with a girlfriend.
01:11:11
So, we had good friend of mine's got had
01:11:13
a shadow in the south of France. So,
01:11:16
yeah. So, there was 17 of us there
01:11:20
>> um sort of celebrating all these boys
01:11:22
30th birthday which was which was
01:11:25
unbelievable actually. So um
01:11:29
yeah uh so we'll just yeah see what
01:11:33
happens in terms of um
01:11:36
that um
01:11:38
yeah so had you know had that time and
01:11:40
then you know we
01:11:43
bit of time in in Fiji and stuff and
01:11:45
just doing lots of travel and things.
01:11:47
Yeah.
01:11:48
>> Well maybe you need to make yourself
01:11:49
more available. Get a LinkedIn page or
01:11:50
something. I had to track you down by
01:11:52
going through your daughter.
01:11:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I don't know.
01:11:56
Yeah, look, I I was Yeah, we're going to
01:11:59
three weeks in Uruguay doing a doing a
01:12:01
bit of bit of coaching there as uh
01:12:04
>> um you that was headlines in there in in
01:12:08
the papers in Wales and in terms of that
01:12:12
where I was asked by someone involved in
01:12:14
World Rugby um you know, would you be
01:12:17
interested to go into to Uruguay for
01:12:19
three weeks just to help with some of
01:12:21
their their national academy and one of
01:12:24
their club sites? And I kind of looked
01:12:25
at and went, you know, the game has been
01:12:27
brilliant for me and here's an
01:12:29
opportunity for me to give a little bit
01:12:30
back. And all of a sudden headlines in
01:12:33
in um Wales online Gatlin take shock new
01:12:37
position. I went, "Oh my god, I'm just
01:12:39
going over there as a consultant for
01:12:40
three weeks,
01:12:42
you know, to help have a look at their
01:12:44
academy and and uh team called Penroll
01:12:48
who was playing in Super Rugby South
01:12:50
America. They ended up winning the
01:12:51
competition. So I was there for the last
01:12:53
game of semi-final and final was you
01:12:55
know great experience great experience
01:12:58
for me in terms of uh looking at
01:13:00
something different looking at a
01:13:01
different culture uh and I loved you see
01:13:06
uh Argentina when they the celebrations
01:13:10
when they win a match and I was lucky
01:13:11
enough to be in the change room with
01:13:13
this team from Uruguay from um Monte
01:13:16
Video um afterwards where they jumping
01:13:19
up and down and sharing the sort of
01:13:21
Latin temperament and stuff, you know,
01:13:23
incredible experience. So, um yeah, so
01:13:26
we'll just we'll just see what happens.
01:13:28
>> Yeah. How good. I mentioned on Instagram
01:13:30
you're coming. I've got a couple of
01:13:31
random questions here. Um hardest
01:13:33
conversation you've ever had with a
01:13:34
player.
01:13:35
>> Oh, Brian O'Driscoll.
01:13:36
>> Really?
01:13:37
>> Yeah. Um
01:13:38
>> you love like I've I've heard you say
01:13:41
like he's one of your your top five
01:13:42
goats.
01:13:43
>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh I I look I gave
01:13:46
him uh his first international cap as I
01:13:48
think as a 19 year old 18 or 19 year old
01:13:52
and then for to be involved with the
01:13:54
Lions to be the first person that um
01:13:58
uh didn't select him when he was fit and
01:14:01
available um in Australia in 2013 for in
01:14:05
the third test. You know that was a
01:14:07
really really tough and challenging um
01:14:10
conversation. But like I said, the way
01:14:13
that he conducted himself, way he
01:14:15
handled himself, I got a huge amount of
01:14:16
respect from him
01:14:18
>> um as a player and as a person. But I,
01:14:20
you know, I learned a I learned a lot
01:14:23
from that situation. And the thing
01:14:27
about, you know, even you've been around
01:14:28
the game for a long time and you getting
01:14:30
I I think you're always learning. You
01:14:31
always got to keep an open mind. It's
01:14:33
always u life's always about learning
01:14:36
experiences and and you know I continue
01:14:38
to learn all the time and don't know
01:14:40
everything about the game and you know
01:14:41
things happen and and you know that was
01:14:44
a a moment for me an experience for me
01:14:47
that you know I learned a lot but it was
01:14:49
you know difficult and challenging
01:14:50
>> like what what did you learn from that
01:14:52
situation? Um
01:14:54
I learned that um probably afterwards
01:14:58
after the second we'd won the first test
01:15:00
we' close we' lost the second test um
01:15:04
and
01:15:07
probably should have said to the um the
01:15:11
media team they they we never had a
01:15:14
conversation about who the cuz I used to
01:15:16
kind of allow people to have their own
01:15:18
autonomy in doing lots of things and and
01:15:20
they made they genuinely made really
01:15:22
good decisions.
01:15:24
Sam Wbertton had been injured after the
01:15:26
second test and
01:15:29
um we put Brian O'Driscoll up on the
01:15:32
Sunday after the second test for for
01:15:34
media and if they asked me
01:15:38
um I probably said it's not the best
01:15:41
choice to
01:15:43
>> to put him up because would have given
01:15:44
us a little bit of breathing space and
01:15:48
um I knew there was going to be
01:15:50
potentially a discussion because we had
01:15:52
had um other players coming back fit
01:15:53
from injury and we'd lost that second
01:15:56
test and by doing by Brian being up uh
01:16:01
in the media then people just assumed
01:16:03
that oh he's he's going to be selected
01:16:06
for the third test there's a good chance
01:16:08
with he's going to be selected as
01:16:09
captain and so they kind of went on that
01:16:12
>> um narrative
01:16:13
>> that narrative in that road by the time
01:16:14
the team got announced on the Wednesday
01:16:17
um you know so uh and that's something
01:16:21
that I've always tried
01:16:23
I've prided myself how do you control
01:16:24
the narrative, you know, and control the
01:16:27
narrative is always get out on the front
01:16:29
foot, you know, get out there first, try
01:16:31
and control the story. Um because once
01:16:35
you get um leaks and stuff and things go
01:16:38
out then um you're always playing
01:16:40
catchup
01:16:41
>> and so you know that I learned a lot
01:16:43
from that. Um and probably there was so
01:16:46
much negativity around that
01:16:49
uh selection as well in terms of leaving
01:16:52
Brian out. Um I can remember on the
01:16:56
Friday so we trained we have had a
01:16:59
couple of days of trained had a couple
01:17:01
two training sessions on the Wednesday
01:17:02
and another training session on Thursday
01:17:04
and a captain's run on the Friday and we
01:17:06
just took the 23 to the the training
01:17:09
ground on the on the Friday for the
01:17:12
captain's run and and I I should have
01:17:14
taken everybody I should have made
01:17:16
everyone feel um how important it was
01:17:19
that they were involved on on that
01:17:21
Friday and it was something that because
01:17:23
Brian wasn't in the 23, you know, he did
01:17:25
say he said to me afterwards, he said,
01:17:27
you know, was the first time I didn't
01:17:29
feel a part of it by not being involved
01:17:31
in that 23. And I kind of took that on
01:17:33
board and going, you know, just how
01:17:35
important everyone is where I kind of
01:17:38
looked at it from a different angle and
01:17:39
saying, look, there's so much negativity
01:17:41
about this selection and leaving Brian
01:17:43
out.
01:17:43
>> Was it better just to focus on the 23 in
01:17:46
terms of their preparation? Uh you again
01:17:48
I didn't get it right and in terms even
01:17:51
though we you know we won the game
01:17:52
comfortably and then the first question
01:17:54
I get in the press conference afterwards
01:17:55
oh Warren you must feel justified in
01:17:57
leaving Brian and Driscoll out
01:18:00
>> if I'd said yes that would have been the
01:18:02
headlines the next day and I went no not
01:18:03
at all you know it's it's the hardest
01:18:05
thing I've ever had to do as a coach it
01:18:07
doesn't mean that it was still the right
01:18:09
decision doesn't mean I don't question
01:18:10
myself was that the the right call and
01:18:12
the right decision so you always
01:18:16
you always trying to play a little bit
01:18:18
of catchup, you know, people trying to
01:18:19
catch you out, trying to look for a
01:18:21
headline and stuff. And in the past, the
01:18:23
times I got myself in trouble because I
01:18:26
have prided myself in trying to be as
01:18:28
honest as I can. Um, I don't think
01:18:30
there's ever been an agenda. If you ask
01:18:32
me a question, I will, uh, you know,
01:18:36
hopefully tell you the truth or give you
01:18:37
an honest opinion. Um and but and
01:18:41
sometimes people don't always like that,
01:18:43
you know, and that's kind of way spin
01:18:44
away. Like I give you a really good
01:18:46
example of that is in World Cup in 2011,
01:18:49
I thought um
01:18:53
the All Blacks deserve to win the World
01:18:54
Cup in 2011 because they were the best
01:18:56
team in the World Cup. I thought France
01:18:58
were fairly hard done by with um a few
01:19:01
decisions in that final, you know, and
01:19:04
it went right down to the wire and I got
01:19:06
absolutely
01:19:08
[Laughter]
01:19:11
bollocked by social media for saying
01:19:13
that, you know, going well cuz I cuz I
01:19:16
can remember at the time uh Brit and I
01:19:19
were uh I had a couple of tickets for
01:19:21
the final and you know the semi-final
01:19:23
and we played France and Sam Orbin had
01:19:25
been sent off And uh so I gave um my two
01:19:29
tickets to the final to to Sam Orbit and
01:19:31
his dad and we were watching the game at
01:19:33
the beach and at Halime Brin was only
01:19:35
only young at the at the time. Um and I
01:19:39
said to him, "Why don't you watch this
01:19:40
game a little bit differently in the
01:19:42
second half?" And he said, "What's
01:19:43
that?" And I said, "Um,
01:19:46
let's watch it from how I might
01:19:48
sometimes look at that. Let's watch it
01:19:49
from, you know, a French perspective,
01:19:51
thinking we're French supporters." And
01:19:52
Bring goes, "Okay." So in the second
01:19:54
half goes, "Oh, that should have been a
01:19:57
penalty against Richard Mcc." And I
01:19:59
Yeah. Oh, that should be a penalty
01:20:00
against all black. Yeah. Oh, that should
01:20:03
have been Yeah. So, um it's Yeah. You
01:20:08
kind of uh
01:20:10
Yeah. You You always learn lessons in
01:20:13
life, don't you? Kind of. You know, as a
01:20:16
Kiwi, sometimes
01:20:16
>> you know your audience.
01:20:17
>> Yeah. Know your audience. Sometimes you
01:20:19
go, you know, the All Black deserve to
01:20:21
win the World Cup, but thought France
01:20:22
were a bit unlucky. Well, maybe don't
01:20:25
say that at home in New Zealand, you
01:20:26
know, kind of cuz we are as as Kiwis.
01:20:31
There's there's our strength is is our
01:20:33
isolation and being involved and, you
01:20:35
know, the success we've had in not just
01:20:38
rugby, but all sports and lots of
01:20:40
different things. But it it it's also a
01:20:43
weakness as well, you know, kind of that
01:20:44
isolation and that naivity and not
01:20:47
understanding things. But it's probably
01:20:50
not the right time to get into that sort
01:20:52
of conversation. Yeah.
01:20:53
>> Do you do you do you load the media?
01:20:55
>> I mean, it's it's a necessary e evil
01:20:57
with your job, isn't it? But you Yeah.
01:21:00
What are your views on them?
01:21:02
>> Oh, uh, it's it's the hardest thing in
01:21:04
in the game to be involved with at the
01:21:06
moment. kind of
01:21:09
and I I don't know what the answer is
01:21:12
here because the with the media at times
01:21:15
you get um
01:21:18
you hear them being critical of players
01:21:21
who are you know trained in media. They
01:21:25
don't say anything.
01:21:27
very um
01:21:30
neutral kind of like very you know in
01:21:32
terms of the the responses they get and
01:21:34
and and they're looking for some color
01:21:36
and they're looking for people to make
01:21:38
but then that opens the players up to
01:21:41
criticism you know social media
01:21:43
criticism the players you've read a lot
01:21:45
of this thing and you feel for the
01:21:47
players sometimes and you go look I
01:21:49
don't know what the balance is but you
01:21:50
know kind of like you can't have it both
01:21:52
ways you can't kind of have where You
01:21:55
can be critical of players or you write
01:21:58
a story and social media critical of
01:22:01
players and and then players sort of
01:22:03
clam up and don't give
01:22:05
>> honest answers and look I don't know I
01:22:08
don't know what the answer is there but
01:22:09
it's it's it's it's different um and
01:22:14
probably you go back a number of years
01:22:17
where you could have had
01:22:20
um a relationship a really good
01:22:23
relationship with journalists that you
01:22:24
you trusted and respected and you could
01:22:27
talk off the record and know that they
01:22:29
wouldn't stitch you up, but they're kind
01:22:31
of few and far between now in terms of
01:22:33
that. And look, it's I think if you
01:22:36
spoke to all,
01:22:38
>> not just not just in rugby, but a lot of
01:22:40
people involved in in the high profile
01:22:42
sport and say, you know, what's the most
01:22:43
challenging thing that you find, they'll
01:22:45
say it's the media and kind media or
01:22:47
social media and dealing with all those
01:22:49
sorts of things.
01:22:52
They've got this cartoon here from um is
01:22:53
it Rod Emerson? Is that the cartoonist
01:22:56
>> from uh
01:22:57
>> from the New Zealand Herald? Yeah. Yeah.
01:22:59
So, this is um during the the Lions
01:23:01
tour. Is this the 2015 Lions tour? The
01:23:03
one
01:23:03
>> 2017.
01:23:04
>> 2017. That was a drawn a drawn series.
01:23:07
Is that that one or
01:23:08
>> Yeah.
01:23:08
>> Yeah. So, what's the story about that?
01:23:10
What's the What's the What's the whole
01:23:12
backstory with the clown nose? The clown
01:23:14
thing.
01:23:15
>> It's a It's a very mean cartoon, isn't
01:23:17
it?
01:23:18
>> It's not the greatest in the world.
01:23:19
Yeah. Well,
01:23:23
I kind of it goes back to where uh
01:23:30
there was an all uh before Australia
01:23:32
played the All Blacks and Michael
01:23:37
Checker was the New Zealand Herald did a
01:23:39
thing with Michael Checker
01:23:42
um being portrayed as a clown and I was
01:23:45
asked about that and I just thought look
01:23:48
I I I just thought
01:23:51
and at the time I don't remember the the
01:23:53
um
01:23:55
New Zealand fans were booing Quaid
01:23:58
Cooper and and obviously Michael Checker
01:24:02
and I just thought
01:24:04
as as a as a fan of rugby I just thought
01:24:06
it was a little bit o over the top and
01:24:10
so I made some comment I just thought
01:24:12
you know that wasn't acceptable that
01:24:16
that people were booing sort of Quay
01:24:19
Cooper and and I thought the the Michael
01:24:21
Checker uh clown thing that was done
01:24:24
before that and so
01:24:26
obviously New Zealand Herald didn't like
01:24:29
me criticizing them and decided to
01:24:32
portray me uh in the same vein I
01:24:34
suppose. Yeah.
01:24:35
>> And when when when you open the paper
01:24:37
and see that or someone in your team
01:24:39
shows that to you how do you feel? Is it
01:24:41
is it hurtful? Is it embarrassing?
01:24:43
>> Does it piss you off?
01:24:44
>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah,
01:24:48
and I I think that that
01:24:51
there's there's no doubt in my mind um
01:24:54
having spoken to people that I know and
01:24:56
and and trust and and and whatever that
01:24:59
that um
01:25:02
journalists in New Zealand her were
01:25:04
given some in inside information on the
01:25:06
All Blacks. Um, and which is, you know,
01:25:09
it's probably the way sport's gone. And
01:25:12
part of the re and part of the
01:25:15
the the deal for that was to try and um
01:25:19
put me off my stride and upset me, you
01:25:21
know.
01:25:22
>> Um, and be critical of myself and that.
01:25:26
Yeah.
01:25:26
>> Did it work?
01:25:29
>> No, it just made me more determined. It
01:25:31
kind of I didn't enjoy the tour, you
01:25:34
know. Well, I didn't enjoy the tour, but
01:25:37
I was really conscious that um the the
01:25:40
interesting thing is that all the stuff
01:25:42
that happens, like the New Zealand
01:25:43
Herald stuff, um the staff would have
01:25:46
seen that, but the players had no idea
01:25:48
that sort of stuff's going on really.
01:25:49
They don't really take much notice in
01:25:51
terms of reading that. But, um
01:25:54
>> yeah, but I did wear I I was I I did
01:25:57
wear a clown nose.
01:25:59
>> You do a pre press conference after
01:26:01
that. Oh, that was after that. Whose
01:26:03
whose idea was that?
01:26:04
>> It was mine actually. Yeah,
01:26:06
>> I was going to do I was going to do it
01:26:07
in Wellington after the second test when
01:26:09
we won the the second test. Um but it
01:26:11
wasn't it wasn't the right time cuz it
01:26:14
was the game where Sunny Bill Williams
01:26:15
had been sent off and he kind of like I
01:26:18
didn't want to be disrespectful
01:26:20
>> to to him and what had happened in that
01:26:22
occasion. But I decided to put it on for
01:26:25
the third test anyway. So um
01:26:28
you know it's
01:26:30
was it Yeah. And I think if I think uh a
01:26:34
few of the photographers were weren't
01:26:36
happy because they they missed it, you
01:26:37
know, they missed the Kashmir wearing
01:26:39
the clown nose into the press conference
01:26:41
and I I only I walked in with this clown
01:26:44
nose on and sat down and then basically
01:26:46
took it off and so I don't think many
01:26:48
people got a photo of me doing that. But
01:26:51
look, I don't know what they were, you
01:26:54
know, what they were trying to do. Yeah,
01:26:56
it was definitely it was a um concerted
01:27:00
effort by some people to try and put me
01:27:03
off my stride and upset me um during
01:27:06
that during that tour.
01:27:08
>> Yeah.
01:27:09
I'm probably projecting here, but if
01:27:11
that was me, if I was in your shoes and
01:27:13
I' I'd played 140 games for my province
01:27:16
and made the All Blacks and been in the
01:27:17
All Blacks for four years and um was
01:27:20
playing my trade overseas and doing it
01:27:22
very well. Um I think I'd be [ __ ] off.
01:27:25
>> Yeah.
01:27:27
>> Yeah. And and I I can't imagine how it
01:27:29
would be for your family as well, like
01:27:30
your kids.
01:27:31
>> Well, I think it was a there was a
01:27:33
journalist People were not that happy.
01:27:35
there's a journalist that
01:27:37
um had written a lot of stuff on that on
01:27:39
that there but never asked a question in
01:27:42
a press conference. Um
01:27:45
and you know it's one
01:27:49
I I would I one organization that I
01:27:51
would never deal with again.
01:27:53
>> Yeah. I'd never do a sorry for them for
01:27:55
for whatever reason. So um
01:27:59
but
01:28:00
>> what or can you say what organization or
01:28:02
no?
01:28:02
>> New Zealand Herald.
01:28:03
>> All right. On the Herald. Yeah. Yeah, I
01:28:04
never I'd never ever do a story with
01:28:06
them again. I just think they're trash.
01:28:08
And
01:28:09
>> where I thought Sky were great in terms
01:28:11
of way they covered stuff, I thought
01:28:12
they were fair. And there were other
01:28:14
outlets I thought were pretty good. Um
01:28:16
>> it's quite I've had um Steve Williams on
01:28:18
the podcast. Tiger Woods, old candy had
01:28:20
him on a couple of times and he um
01:28:22
>> he he he he won't do anything with stuff
01:28:25
because of some stories they wrote when
01:28:27
Tigers and Fidelity came to light
01:28:28
basically accusing him of being
01:28:29
involved.
01:28:30
>> And people at Stuff are like, "Oh no,
01:28:32
those people aren't there anymore." He
01:28:33
doesn't care.
01:28:34
>> Yeah.
01:28:34
>> It's the organization.
01:28:35
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:28:36
>> Yeah. That stuff I don't think these
01:28:38
journalists necessarily have um they
01:28:40
don't necessarily realize or give much
01:28:42
thought into how deep this stuff can cut
01:28:45
because you're dealing with people.
01:28:46
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think you got to be
01:28:48
careful and you got to be it's not just
01:28:51
um I'm I'm a little bit got thicker skin
01:28:54
than probably than most people and and
01:28:57
you know like pretty strong but it's the
01:29:00
impact it has on I see it I've seen it
01:29:04
with players. I've seen it with the
01:29:06
players keep quite strong but it's their
01:29:08
it's also in their partner and then
01:29:10
their mom and dad and brother and
01:29:12
sisters and wider sort of groups you
01:29:13
know they kind of um they can take that
01:29:17
sort of stuff more to heart. I mean, I
01:29:19
know that um
01:29:21
with that clown stuff there, you know,
01:29:24
and there are times where my son and
01:29:26
daughter wanted to say, "Dad, we need we
01:29:28
want to go on and say just look." I
01:29:30
said, "Just let it be. It'll it'll be
01:29:33
there." But um
01:29:36
yeah, I can understand where where
01:29:38
people won't deal with certain
01:29:39
journalists or um outlets because of um
01:29:44
what's happened. And and I I fully
01:29:46
understand that and respect that. and
01:29:48
you know have been in that same
01:29:49
situation myself. Yeah.
01:29:50
>> Yeah.
01:29:52
>> Well, thanks for sharing that and
01:29:53
revisiting it.
01:29:54
>> Yeah.
01:29:55
>> Yeah.
01:29:57
>> No. Yeah. It was um Yeah. I look it was
01:30:01
it was it was it was tough. It was
01:30:03
probably
01:30:05
>> probably two 217
01:30:08
uh 221.
01:30:11
It's kind of the first time from the
01:30:14
I have this different view of the Lions.
01:30:16
I I have this romantic view of the
01:30:18
Lions. I I see the Lions as being an
01:30:20
opportunity to celebrate the game.
01:30:23
>> Uh because you bring the players
01:30:24
together from from four nations and
01:30:26
you're playing away from home normally
01:30:28
against one of the best teams in the
01:30:29
world. And I think three of the four
01:30:31
tours I was involved was against world
01:30:32
champions
01:30:34
and you realize that there's this chance
01:30:37
to to to do something special in the
01:30:40
game. and probably 217 221 was the first
01:30:43
time I kind of went um it's almost
01:30:48
something that the winning
01:30:51
was more important than anything else.
01:30:53
Winning was more important the game and
01:30:54
I just think that when you look at the
01:30:56
bigger picture and you look at what the
01:30:58
Alliance series or Lions tour can do, it
01:31:02
can do some magical things that are that
01:31:04
I think are bigger than just just
01:31:06
winning. and and I and I would really
01:31:09
encourage people to be involved in that
01:31:11
and think about that um and and and be a
01:31:16
part of that and yeah look winning is
01:31:18
really really important and but I was
01:31:20
kind of I thought we'd gone a certain
01:31:22
way you know and that's a good example
01:31:24
where um yeah even like the the very
01:31:30
first game the headliner New Zealand
01:31:32
Herald we're playing against New Zealand
01:31:35
Barbarians and Fungare for a my son's
01:31:38
plane and I
01:31:43
had a coffee with him the the day I went
01:31:45
to press conference it was you know
01:31:48
tough for us we just arrived New Zealand
01:31:49
on the Wednesday we had a training
01:31:50
session on the Thursday we we fly to
01:31:53
sorry we drive to Fong on the on the
01:31:55
Friday we're playing New Zealand barians
01:31:56
on the Saturday so really limited
01:31:58
preparation and I said to him
01:32:01
they said you was a conversation with
01:32:02
Bren and I just said oh look we had a
01:32:04
cup of coffee and I just
01:32:06
Um, we didn't really talk much about the
01:32:08
game. I just said, "Oh, mate, good luck
01:32:10
tomorrow." I said, "You you might have
01:32:11
to make a few tackles." That's all I
01:32:13
said. Headline the next day in New
01:32:15
Zealand herald Gatland to target
01:32:17
Barbarian's weakness dash his son.
01:32:22
I said, "Wow,
01:32:23
>> two for the price of one."
01:32:24
>> I said, "Where the hell did that come
01:32:25
out of?" Yeah. You know, Warren Gatlin
01:32:28
will the head the first paragraph
01:32:29
something like Warren Gatlin will
01:32:31
instruct Ben Tio to run on an angle at
01:32:34
his at his son because that's the way
01:32:36
the Lions are going to play on tour. And
01:32:38
I'm going okay,
01:32:40
you know, right from day one, I knew
01:32:41
exactly what I'm dealing with and and
01:32:42
and that that continued right right
01:32:44
through um right through the whole tour.
01:32:48
M
01:32:48
>> and but like I said, you kind of, you
01:32:51
know, you you you
01:32:54
um you put up walls a little bit and you
01:32:56
you you learn to expect that sort of
01:33:00
stuff and and deal with it.
01:33:02
>> Was that hard on Brin? It's a pretty
01:33:05
mean thing to write. It's pretty shitty,
01:33:06
isn't it?
01:33:07
>> Yeah, I think it was. He was he was
01:33:09
okay. I think it was my my wife and
01:33:12
daughter were the ones who
01:33:15
>> were a little bit more animated about
01:33:17
it. Yeah.
01:33:18
>> And Trudy's a redhead, isn't she? You
01:33:20
know, don't mess with a fiery redhead.
01:33:22
>> I know. The only thing I'm scared of is
01:33:24
she's about, you know, 5'2 with red
01:33:26
hair. Yeah. So, um yeah, she she can be
01:33:30
um Yeah.
01:33:31
>> Yeah.
01:33:31
>> Fairly tough.
01:33:33
>> We haven't talked much about your time
01:33:34
in Wales. Um it's incredible. So your
01:33:36
your first stint there uh 12 years
01:33:38
finished in 2019. Um longest serving
01:33:41
Wales coach ever. And then there's um
01:33:43
they named a gate a g a a gate after
01:33:45
you.
01:33:45
>> Yeah.
01:33:46
>> Gatland's gate at Principality Stadium.
01:33:48
>> Yeah.
01:33:49
>> That's a massive honor.
01:33:51
>> Yeah. Look, I loved my time there. Um
01:33:54
it was um made some great friends, some
01:33:58
some great had some great experiences.
01:34:00
Uh
01:34:02
>> yeah, and kind of Yeah. um
01:34:08
I suppose um being involved with a team
01:34:12
that there weren't a lot of expectations
01:34:14
and we kind of everyone grew um as a
01:34:18
team and we you when you're dealing with
01:34:20
a a nation like Wales with such a small
01:34:24
playing base, you're going you're going
01:34:25
to have the ups and downs. you're going
01:34:27
to have um you know smallest playing
01:34:30
base of any t tier one nation in terms
01:34:32
of the numbers and stuff and you got
01:34:34
four professional sides but still a lot
01:34:38
of with a lot of foreign uh input in
01:34:41
terms of number of foreign players
01:34:44
and
01:34:47
um yeah we I think I think over that
01:34:49
period we punched massively above our
01:34:50
weight you know in terms of the success
01:34:52
that we had but um you know it was
01:34:54
always always tough and really proud of
01:34:57
what we achieved, you know, particularly
01:35:00
uh the cycles that we had and in
01:35:01
particularly in World Cups anyway.
01:35:04
>> Oh yeah, some of those achievements,
01:35:05
four Six Nations titles, three Grand
01:35:07
Slams. Um yeah, what are you proudest of
01:35:10
from your time in Wales?
01:35:13
>> Um yeah, probably probably
01:35:16
that that sort of t Yeah,
01:35:19
>> the titles. Yeah, I the the first you I
01:35:24
went there in 2008 and won won a grand
01:35:26
slam and and
01:35:29
that was a little with a bit of luck you
01:35:31
know you always need in all sport you
01:35:33
need some some luck but the first game
01:35:34
was against England away way way away
01:35:36
way away from home we hadn't won there
01:35:38
in Twickenham in 20 odd years and um
01:35:43
and I can remember in the first half we
01:35:45
talked about being smart playing a bit
01:35:48
of territory but we we kicked poorly in
01:35:50
the first half and kept a lot of ball
01:35:51
away
01:35:53
and at Halime we were down 196 at Halime
01:35:57
and we held uh an the English wing um
01:36:02
Paul Saki we held him up over over the
01:36:04
line and if he had scored
01:36:08
100% England would have won the game
01:36:10
>> because it would have been 25 we got it
01:36:13
we held on we got into halftime and we
01:36:16
changed
01:36:17
uh a little bit tactically where we
01:36:19
wanted to attack through the 13 channel
01:36:21
kept a bit more ball in hand and we
01:36:24
dominated the second half I think
01:36:26
territory 75% territory in possession he
01:36:29
ended up winning 2619 and coming down
01:36:32
the stairs at twigum and a Welsh
01:36:36
reporter walks what Graham Henry
01:36:40
was known as the great redeemer what are
01:36:42
you going to be known as and I looked at
01:36:44
I went the lucky bastard so
01:36:48
that was my first So yeah, um we had a
01:36:51
couple of good wins against England at
01:36:53
Twickerland which were always uh good
01:36:55
some some good success against France
01:36:57
and obviously
01:37:00
>> I I I loved I loved my um time in in the
01:37:05
in the World Cup. It's kind of
01:37:06
international was rugby is is is really
01:37:10
challenging from the limited preparation
01:37:12
time and there's a huge amount of
01:37:14
expectation and you got um and you're
01:37:17
really under under scrutiny under the
01:37:20
spotlight in terms of u performance and
01:37:24
results. Uh, and what I love about the
01:37:26
World Cup is having that time together
01:37:27
where you it's it's the one time in in a
01:37:30
cycle where you feel like you're almost
01:37:32
like going back to a club side where
01:37:33
you've got like pre-season warm-up games
01:37:36
and stuff and you could
01:37:37
>> prepare a team properly. And so I kind
01:37:39
of, you know, for me maybe um that's
01:37:43
something I'd like to potentially be
01:37:44
involved with is, you know, maybe the
01:37:46
next challenge is be involved with a
01:37:49
team um building leading up to a World
01:37:52
Cup. I think um the experiences that
01:37:54
I've had in terms of um with Wales and
01:37:57
um and probably like I said punching
01:38:01
hugely above the expectations and above
01:38:03
our weight is something that I'd like to
01:38:05
bring some of that experience in and
01:38:07
helping
01:38:08
>> maybe another another country involved
01:38:10
in the World Cup in 27.
01:38:12
>> Brilliant. Yeah. Is there anything that
01:38:15
keeps you awake at night or that you
01:38:16
still ruminate on? Like you I've had
01:38:19
Lori Mains on the podcast and he he said
01:38:21
he still thinks about the 95 World Cup
01:38:23
often. It's 30 30 years ago. anything
01:38:26
for you like close misses or missed
01:38:28
opportunities
01:38:29
>> or you sort of at peace with how
01:38:31
everything
01:38:34
>> uh
01:38:37
I think
01:38:38
um
01:38:40
the World Cup in 2011 and Sam Wolverton
01:38:44
being sent off I thought it was
01:38:47
you know whether it was the right
01:38:48
decision but when you got a couple of
01:38:50
million couple of billion people
01:38:51
watching a game you know in sort of 17
01:38:53
minutes
01:38:54
>> Mhm. You know, you could argue, you
01:38:55
know, should that been a yellow card or
01:38:56
should have that been
01:38:58
>> Yeah, I thought that was was a little
01:39:00
bit tough and
01:39:02
um
01:39:04
I thought I thought we would have made a
01:39:05
made the final. So, kind of probably um
01:39:09
it's probably been a couple of those
01:39:12
those situations, but
01:39:13
>> you don't dwell too much.
01:39:14
>> No, I think you can't dwell too much.
01:39:16
You got to you kind of got to look
01:39:18
forward, you know, you kind of
01:39:19
>> you can't change things. You can't
01:39:21
change the past. And um
01:39:24
yeah, you just and you got to somehow
01:39:27
try and create your own luck and and and
01:39:30
do things as well. So um yeah, if you if
01:39:34
you if you dwell too much and you start,
01:39:36
you know, keep looking back too often,
01:39:39
you know, it's going to it's going to um
01:39:41
eat you up, I think.
01:39:42
>> Well, it's it's not it's not helpful.
01:39:44
And you can't change anything anyway,
01:39:46
can you?
01:39:46
>> No. No. And I remember um I give you
01:39:50
talk about not changing anything. um
01:39:53
sitting in the uh in the bus with Andy
01:39:55
Irvine in 2013. We're playing the
01:39:57
Barbarians in Hong Kong
01:40:00
and we'd booked time to go to um the
01:40:05
match and we had allowed an hour and a
01:40:09
an hour 20. So we were meeting something
01:40:11
like as a a team meeting like an hour
01:40:15
and a two hours or two and a half hours
01:40:17
before before kickoff. The analyst had
01:40:20
gone to the game
01:40:22
um earlier and one analyst rang me and
01:40:26
said, "It's only taken us 15 minutes to
01:40:29
get from the hotel to the ground. We've
01:40:30
allowed for an hour or 3/4 an hour,
01:40:33
something like that." And I've gone,
01:40:34
"Oh, okay." So, I've put the meeting
01:40:37
back, the team meeting back half an hour
01:40:40
or 45 minutes or something. And um so we
01:40:44
do that, get on the bus to go to the
01:40:47
game and we are stuck in um
01:40:54
traffic, aren't we?
01:40:57
And we arrive we arrive about 20 25
01:40:59
minutes before kickoff. It was a it was
01:41:02
a it was a brilliant experience. Andy
01:41:04
Ivine's sitting next to me going
01:41:08
the bus driver, "Go there. Go there.
01:41:09
Trying to get us there quicker." and he
01:41:11
turns around to me and he goes, "I can't
01:41:13
believe how come you are,
01:41:16
Andy, I can't change it." You know, we
01:41:18
it is what it is, you know. Why why am I
01:41:20
getting upset about something that I
01:41:22
can't can't really change, you know? So,
01:41:24
um and we went there. Uh the boys were
01:41:28
brilliant. We had physios working on the
01:41:30
bus, got changed on the bus, taped up on
01:41:32
the bus. We went out there uh and we end
01:41:34
up winning the game by about 70 points.
01:41:37
It was one of those things that you know
01:41:40
sometimes from adversity it comes comes
01:41:42
a positive out of it and using using
01:41:44
that to say um you know whatever anyone
01:41:47
throws at us um you know um you're able
01:41:51
to deal with it so I kind of try to turn
01:41:53
it was a plan thing
01:41:56
I completely cocked up in terms of
01:41:58
timings for that
01:41:59
>> well there's all sorts of sayings like
01:42:00
control the controllables you know
01:42:03
>> um when people look back on Warren
01:42:04
Gatlin and say 50 years what do What do
01:42:07
you hope they'll say?
01:42:09
>> Oh,
01:42:10
>> suppose this is in regard to your
01:42:11
coaching, correct?
01:42:12
>> Yeah, I don't know. I
01:42:15
I've prided myself and I'm trying to be
01:42:18
uh straight up and as honest as I could
01:42:20
be. Um like I said, that sometimes
01:42:23
doesn't always go down with people in in
01:42:25
terms of that. Um
01:42:27
and then people would
01:42:30
term me as being stubborn, you know. Um
01:42:34
but I kind of
01:42:38
like I don't know just um I'd like to
01:42:41
think that
01:42:45
someone who's punched you know have
01:42:48
taken teams have punched above their
01:42:49
weight in terms of you know when I was
01:42:51
first involved when the game went
01:42:54
professional in conict and Ireland and
01:42:57
um you know we we did a a lot better
01:43:00
than people expected and then with
01:43:01
Ireland. I'd like to think that I was
01:43:03
involved with a period where it started
01:43:05
of the, you know, a reign of
01:43:08
sort of making Ireland more professional
01:43:10
and success. I went to Wasp when they
01:43:12
were bottom of the premiership and we
01:43:13
won three premierships in a row and
01:43:16
Europe and stuff and and Wales. So, you
01:43:18
know, some someone who's involved with
01:43:20
teams that was able to get hopefully the
01:43:22
best out of teams and and um
01:43:26
and you know, make them make them better
01:43:28
than what they were
01:43:30
>> character-wise. What are you still
01:43:31
working on as a man?
01:43:33
>> Oh, always trying to work on being
01:43:36
better.
01:43:38
Um
01:43:40
yeah, just um
01:43:44
yeah, you know, there's there's always
01:43:46
things that you can be better with and
01:43:47
and be
01:43:49
um
01:43:52
yeah, I I I think that u one of the
01:43:55
things that I've got to do
01:43:58
um since I've since I've been away and
01:44:01
come back is is making sure you that um
01:44:07
back and just making sure that I make
01:44:09
more more connections more often with
01:44:12
with with friends and family. You know,
01:44:13
probably when you're away, you it's easy
01:44:16
when you come back and you catch up with
01:44:17
people in there, but you know, it's
01:44:19
definitely something that that I'm
01:44:21
conscious of making sure that I, you
01:44:23
know, ring ring some friends a little um
01:44:27
more often, you know, catch up with them
01:44:29
for a drink or a coffee or around a golf
01:44:31
or something like that. I've got to be
01:44:33
more conscious of doing that because
01:44:34
that's
01:44:35
>> that that that is important.
01:44:37
>> How are you with the golf? Are you still
01:44:39
like extremely competitive with
01:44:40
everything you do or have you managed to
01:44:42
sort of um compartmentalize it and
01:44:46
>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't play I don't play. I
01:44:48
live when I lived in Wales, I lived on
01:44:50
uh it was two golf courses where we
01:44:52
lived and I hardly ever played them. So
01:44:54
I play more when I come back. Um
01:44:56
>> in terms of the the competitives, say
01:44:58
you're playing, I don't know, Connect
01:44:59
Four with your kids or something. Are
01:45:01
are you are you able to control the
01:45:03
competitiveness?
01:45:04
>> Yeah.
01:45:04
>> Yeah.
01:45:05
>> No, not really.
01:45:08
>> Yeah. Brin's we had a table tennis table
01:45:12
at home and for some reason all the way
01:45:16
grown. I still couldn't let Brin beat me
01:45:18
until he was able to actually beat me. I
01:45:19
think it was about he was about 13 at
01:45:21
the time. Um, you know, I used to just
01:45:24
muck around with him and then I'd get
01:45:25
competitive at the end and beat him like
01:45:27
2119 or something like 2120 and he used
01:45:30
to go absolutely mad. But, uh, and then
01:45:33
once he once he started beating me, I
01:45:35
couldn't beat him. So, uh, yeah, he's
01:45:38
he's probably worse than me actually.
01:45:40
So, uh,
01:45:42
>> doesn't fall far from the tree.
01:45:43
>> I know. Yeah, he's he's he's competitive
01:45:46
and he's got a group of mates and they
01:45:49
they get pissed off with him because he
01:45:51
seems to be able to beat them in
01:45:52
everything whe they're playing beer ping
01:45:54
pong or or whatever they're doing, you
01:45:56
know, in terms of uh competitions and
01:45:58
that. So, um
01:46:00
>> you guys are a different breed, I've had
01:46:02
um both um Grant and Ryan Fox on the
01:46:05
podcast and their their stories both
01:46:08
match up. Um Ryan said the the first
01:46:09
time he bet Grant off the stick in golf
01:46:11
like Grant didn't talk to him for a
01:46:13
couple of days.
01:46:15
>> What is it with you guys? You just like
01:46:17
competitive to the point where it's like
01:46:19
almost an issue.
01:46:20
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:46:22
>> Um how do you how do you personally
01:46:24
define happiness now?
01:46:26
>> What's happiness for Warren Gatlin?
01:46:30
Um,
01:46:33
I suppose waking up every day and not
01:46:35
having to worry about things, you know,
01:46:37
not worry about um,
01:46:40
yeah, I I I I need to,
01:46:44
like I said, I'm there are things I'm
01:46:45
doing at the moment in terms of um,
01:46:47
keeping me busy, but then making sure
01:46:49
that, you know, there's a focus and in
01:46:52
terms of going forward, I'm going to be
01:46:54
doing a little bit of doing a little bit
01:46:55
of stuff with world rugby over the next
01:46:56
six months, which will
01:46:59
cool to be involved in that. And then um
01:47:02
yeah, whatever that is, you know, I'm
01:47:04
kind of I'm not people say, oh, you
01:47:06
know, you need to I don't find it
01:47:09
difficult to make myself busy during the
01:47:10
day and and uh like whether that's going
01:47:14
to be playing a little bit more golf or
01:47:15
doing a bit more fishing or doing things
01:47:17
like catching up with some mates and
01:47:18
stuff. Um and maybe, you know, having
01:47:21
something that um I'll need to do. So I
01:47:26
I yeah I just I don't find it difficult
01:47:30
to make myself happy at the moment.
01:47:31
Yeah.
01:47:33
>> What's it's only been a very short time
01:47:34
since you've taken your your foot off
01:47:36
the gas. Um so at the moment what is
01:47:38
like a perfect day for you?
01:47:40
>> What's a perfect day?
01:47:41
>> Yeah.
01:47:42
>> Uh perfect day is wake up. The perfect
01:47:45
day has to be good weather at the beach.
01:47:47
You know uh I'm trying to do a bit of
01:47:49
exercise at the moment and doing some
01:47:51
stuff. So I kind of I've been I didn't
01:47:53
go for a walk this morning but been
01:47:55
getting up about sort of 5 half past 5
01:47:57
going for a couple of hours walk along
01:47:59
>> half past 5
01:48:01
>> you wake up naturally at half past 5 or
01:48:03
>> I haven't been going to bed uh too late
01:48:06
so um
01:48:08
yeah just try and do a couple of hours
01:48:10
in the morning as the sun comes up and
01:48:12
then get on with the day. Um, and then
01:48:17
been been busy. You know, there's always
01:48:19
emails and stuff and bits and pieces to
01:48:22
do and
01:48:24
uh just getting things organized. We've
01:48:25
been looking after the grandkids a
01:48:27
little bit, spending some time up in
01:48:28
here in Oakuckland. Um, and then yeah,
01:48:32
perfect day and make make sure it's
01:48:35
after 5:00 in terms of, you know, I
01:48:37
might have a beer or a glass of wine and
01:48:39
and and I've been doing a lot of cooking
01:48:41
as well. So, Trudy loves tidying up.
01:48:43
She's an unbelievable house cleaner in
01:48:46
terms of keeping the place tidy and
01:48:47
doing the dishes and stuff, but she does
01:48:49
she doesn't particularly enjoy cooking.
01:48:51
So, I've kind of been taking on a bit
01:48:52
more of that responsibility and been
01:48:54
enjoying it. And
01:48:55
>> what's the signature dish?
01:48:56
>> Uh
01:48:58
been doing a prawn linguini. Um
01:49:00
>> yum.
01:49:01
>> Yeah. So, that pretty good. Um I love I
01:49:04
love cooking a good roast as well and
01:49:06
stuff. Um, yeah, there's, you know, I'm
01:49:10
still looking at recipes and stuff and
01:49:11
things, so but I'm I'm not I'm not too
01:49:13
bad anyway. Yeah.
01:49:14
>> Yes. You seem to be enjoying this um
01:49:15
this chapter of your life. What What are
01:49:17
What are you like as a granddad? How how
01:49:19
are you different as a granddad to a
01:49:20
parent?
01:49:21
>> You spoil them rotten.
01:49:22
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:49:23
>> Ignore the parents instructions.
01:49:25
>> Uh I try not to. Yeah. So, uh yeah, try
01:49:31
try not to. But
01:49:34
yeah, my my granddaughter's kind of got
01:49:36
me twisted around a little finger at the
01:49:39
moment. So, um yeah, they enjoy enjoy
01:49:44
spending a lot of time with them and um
01:49:48
and seeing them grow. The biggest thing
01:49:50
that I found myself doing was um
01:49:55
as a parent you kind of don't you're not
01:49:58
you're not conscious well I wasn't
01:50:00
conscious of the stages that they were
01:50:02
going through you know kind of all of a
01:50:03
sudden they can do everything and and I
01:50:05
could could never remember back you know
01:50:08
>> when did they first start walking when
01:50:09
was their first talking but grandkids
01:50:12
you're kind of obsessed with you know
01:50:14
every little development every little
01:50:16
>> the milestones
01:50:17
>> yeah the milestones and the stages you
01:50:18
know just walking, talking, smiling, you
01:50:21
know, recognizing their hands and all
01:50:22
those sorts of things and uh
01:50:24
>> yeah, so um been enjoying uh spending as
01:50:29
much time with with the grandkids and
01:50:31
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:50:32
>> How do you hope they see you as a man?
01:50:35
>> Uh
01:50:38
I don't I don't know. I I I I hope they
01:50:41
see me as someone who is um
01:50:47
you know can have a have a bit of fun
01:50:50
with them. I probably tease him a little
01:50:53
bit too much and stuff but things
01:50:57
chasing around. So my grandson's a bit,
01:50:59
you know, he loves to wrestle and that
01:51:02
my my they love chasing, you know, um
01:51:06
myself and my my wife around and uh uh
01:51:10
yeah, so
01:51:12
yeah, the the sporting thing
01:51:15
I hope they'll just see me as someone
01:51:17
who's a
01:51:19
um as a as a good person and and um
01:51:23
>> who's uh kind and and gentle. um but
01:51:28
also can be firm when they when they
01:51:30
need to be as well. Um and caring. I
01:51:33
mean this the sporting thing that that
01:51:35
that to me doesn't matter at all. It's
01:51:36
got no real impact on um how my
01:51:40
grandkids see me. I just want to be
01:51:41
someone who's you know sets a really
01:51:43
good example um to them. I think I think
01:51:47
treating myself hopefully done that with
01:51:49
with our kids and then hopefully we can
01:51:52
continue to do that with our grandkids
01:51:53
as well.
01:51:54
>> Are you good at being firm? Are you
01:51:56
scary when you're firm?
01:51:57
>> Oh, no. Trudy is
01:52:00
Trudy is a scary one. Um,
01:52:04
yeah. Look, I can Yeah, and I can
01:52:05
definitely be firm and um um hopefully
01:52:09
in the right way. Yeah. without being,
01:52:11
you know, um
01:52:13
despite what people um in Wales would
01:52:16
say about me, the the thing is the thing
01:52:19
I the thing I love is that there is a
01:52:22
perception that people have over you,
01:52:23
you know, because people in Wales would
01:52:25
see me as this uncaring um sort of um
01:52:31
cranky sort of you miserable bastard
01:52:34
sort of thing. And I I don't have a
01:52:37
problem with people that perception of
01:52:39
me because the the only people that
01:52:42
matter are your your friends and your
01:52:44
family and um and you and people
01:52:49
involved in in your teams and so you
01:52:52
know, excuse me.
01:52:55
Um I'm not I'm not sort of um too
01:52:58
worried what other people what the
01:52:59
impressions other people have of me.
01:53:01
>> Yeah. Well, they don't even know you.
01:53:03
It's almost based on a based on a
01:53:05
snapshot or yeah, a perception.
01:53:08
>> Perception or Yeah. I might say you uh
01:53:12
just, you know, potentially showing
01:53:17
very little or no emotion, you know, as
01:53:19
you're watching games, but
01:53:21
that's a time when the the cameras are
01:53:23
on you, but you know, there's definitely
01:53:24
emotion in between in and other
01:53:26
circumstances. So they the perception is
01:53:29
that you know you're
01:53:32
emotionless in terms of um not
01:53:35
displaying a lot of stuff but
01:53:38
and that can be people's opinion and
01:53:39
that and that's fine with me you know
01:53:41
kind of like that doesn't bother me you
01:53:43
know like I said it's the your friends
01:53:45
and family are the ones and and
01:53:47
teammates are the ones that really
01:53:48
matter
01:53:49
>> well they know if they come to you and
01:53:51
they they say you you know you being
01:53:53
grumpy or contankerous or whatever then
01:53:55
you probably have to do something about
01:53:56
about it. Absolutely.
01:53:57
>> So, it comes from a good place as well.
01:53:58
When was the last time you cried?
01:54:01
>> Um,
01:54:03
oh, probably a year ago.
01:54:06
>> Um,
01:54:09
uh,
01:54:10
yeah, it' be a year ago. And, uh, I know
01:54:13
I know the day actually. Um, St.
01:54:15
Patrick's Day. Um, good friend of um,
01:54:19
Britain's probably one of his best mates
01:54:20
was hit by a car and killed in Sydney.
01:54:24
And um so I kind of knew the day after
01:54:28
that and my wife told me. So yeah, it
01:54:31
was yeah it was it was tough and it was
01:54:34
really really tough on Brenn as well
01:54:35
because
01:54:37
>> he got the phone call and um from uh
01:54:42
good mate of his Mitch's partner and uh
01:54:44
you know Brinn was the one who then had
01:54:46
to make the phone calls to all his
01:54:47
mates. And so for someone of that age to
01:54:50
have to uh deal with and
01:54:54
um give tragic news to you know it was
01:54:57
one it was it was really really tough on
01:54:59
him. So yeah probably that's the last
01:55:02
time I've cried. Yeah.
01:55:02
>> Have you got got more emotional as you
01:55:04
got older?
01:55:04
>> Yeah I've always been emotional. Yeah.
01:55:06
I've always been
01:55:08
>> um there's always been a tear in my sad
01:55:11
movies and stuff and things. I I've
01:55:14
>> I that's what's driven me, you know. I
01:55:16
kind of um
01:55:18
um I you know you see something and then
01:55:21
you I always I have a bit of a tear in
01:55:23
my I hate scary movies. Always been
01:55:25
terrified and [ __ ] myself at scary
01:55:28
movies but you know emotionally I I um
01:55:33
you know I've always been quite
01:55:34
emotional.
01:55:35
>> What what are you most afraid of apart
01:55:36
from horror movies?
01:55:38
Uh,
01:55:42
don't know. Not not not afraid too too
01:55:45
many things, you know. I kind of want to
01:55:48
what I'm afraid of. Like I said, I've
01:55:50
made lots of sacrifices in in in my
01:55:53
life. And I want to make sure that um
01:55:56
hopefully the next 15 or 20 years I get
01:55:59
to really enjoy and do the things that I
01:56:01
want to do and and travel and
01:56:05
spoil the grandkids and and spoil my two
01:56:07
kids as as much as possible because we
01:56:09
like I said we've made those sacrifices.
01:56:11
So, you know, it's the opportunity to
01:56:13
enjoy that part of our lives.
01:56:15
>> Yeah. The fruits of your labor sort of
01:56:17
thing.
01:56:17
>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
01:56:18
>> Just kick back and enjoy it a bit.
01:56:19
>> Yeah.
01:56:20
>> Um any regrets?
01:56:23
Um,
01:56:25
no, nothing that nothing that springs to
01:56:28
mind. You know, there's always games
01:56:31
where
01:56:32
you might have done something a little
01:56:34
bit differently or but like I said, I
01:56:36
don't dwell too much on on the past. I'm
01:56:38
I'm always someone who's sort of
01:56:42
um focused on on looking forward and and
01:56:44
and you can't change things, you know,
01:56:46
so it's kind of you learn from
01:56:49
experiences and things that you do
01:56:50
slightly different, but no no real
01:56:52
regrets.
01:56:53
>> And if um Gabby, Bren, Trudy, and and
01:56:56
the grandkids were all in the room now,
01:56:58
what three words would you like them to
01:57:00
use to describe you?
01:57:07
Um,
01:57:10
oh, generous. I think that's something
01:57:12
that uh
01:57:14
uh caring and um
01:57:20
generous, caring, and um
01:57:24
hopefully fun. Yeah. Yeah.
01:57:26
>> Oh, great words.
01:57:27
>> Yeah.
01:57:28
>> Gabby may disagree since you got the
01:57:31
draw and you didn't give her the card.
01:57:34
And last one, Warren Gatland, are you
01:57:35
proud of yourself?
01:57:37
>> Uh,
01:57:39
yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've uh
01:57:44
yeah, kind of been I've been lucky. Um,
01:57:47
you know, I come up I was um
01:57:52
I probably have had a a bit of a
01:57:54
different focus. you know, sport's given
01:57:55
me so many great opportunities and um
01:57:58
and I was lucky enough in
01:58:00
terms of my upbringing in terms of the
01:58:04
support I had, but you know, definitely
01:58:05
came from a very modest family
01:58:08
background in terms of didn't have a lot
01:58:10
and um and I think, you know, a big part
01:58:15
of my motivation is is trying to produce
01:58:18
and have a couple of kids who I think um
01:58:22
are really good kids. if if they
01:58:25
any way I felt that they were spoiled or
01:58:28
rude or whatever, you know, I wouldn't
01:58:30
I'd be disappointed with them. I think
01:58:32
they're they're two good kids and and
01:58:34
hopefully um being able to provide for
01:58:37
them and give them those opportunities
01:58:38
in life that I didn't really have, but
01:58:42
but for also them to appreciate and
01:58:45
respect that those opportunities that
01:58:47
they've had and and hopefully for them
01:58:49
to to continue to be able to do that
01:58:52
with their own kids as well.
01:58:54
>> Yeah. That that's the best team you've
01:58:56
coached, eh?
01:58:57
>> Absolutely. Yeah.
01:58:58
>> Yeah.
01:58:59
>> Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. M
01:59:01
>> um then the big match thing that we
01:59:03
talked about earlier says it all I
01:59:05
reckon.
01:59:06
>> Yeah.
01:59:06
>> About the family dynamic and what you
01:59:08
guys have got.
01:59:09
>> Yeah. And it was only it was only recent
01:59:10
when Brenn and I were talking about it
01:59:12
and um you read read the story. Um how
01:59:15
much I love you back here or something.
01:59:17
I can't remember. Yeah. Um
01:59:20
BR was Brenn thought that those those
01:59:22
words were actually in the book.
01:59:25
>> I didn't realize you went wrong.
01:59:27
>> Yeah.
01:59:27
>> It wasn't that.
01:59:28
>> Yeah. He said, "I thought that was in
01:59:30
the book. Didn't realize you made that
01:59:32
up." I was
01:59:34
>> flicking through the pages. Where is it?
01:59:36
>> Yeah. Oh, this has been fun. How How is
01:59:38
this for you? Like, do you are you
01:59:41
uncomfortable reflecting on your life
01:59:43
and achievements or do you do you enjoy
01:59:44
it? You find it quite
01:59:46
>> Yeah. I I I Yeah, I think it's a
01:59:48
reminder of um
01:59:51
it's a reminder and a reflection of uh
01:59:54
you know what you've done and and and
01:59:57
um you know potentially achieve, but
02:00:01
it's also a reminder of what you've
02:00:02
learned and what you what you
02:00:04
continually need to learn. you know, we
02:00:06
need to keep always evaluating ourselves
02:00:08
and things that we can do better and
02:00:10
what we, like I said, I've always tried
02:00:12
to think about, you know, how I do that
02:00:14
differently and what I've learned and
02:00:15
and making sure that, you know, you
02:00:17
continue to learn that that that to me
02:00:20
is that to me is the important thing.
02:00:22
It's um and
02:00:24
um but you know, I've enjoyed it. Yeah.
02:00:27
>> Yeah. Wonderful. Hey, well, thank you so
02:00:29
much for agreeing to come here today.
02:00:30
I've really enjoyed it and I can't thank
02:00:32
you enough.
02:00:32
>> Thanks. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.
