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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
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hole in one in to
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Finn. How's the performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
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here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:00:24
investments. Get in here, Finn.
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>> Maximize. Generate. putting performance
00:00:29
first.
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>> Steve Bronnius, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thanks so much. It was a pleasure to be
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here. It's very flattering to be
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invited. Thank you.
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>> It's It's really nice to meet you. I'm
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slightly um terrified in a way, I think.
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>> Ease your terror.
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>> Really?
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>> No, because I I you probably you've done
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you do so much writing, so you probably
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don't even remember this. And I only
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vaguely remember it because I think I've
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tried to block it out. But you I have
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been um a subject of one of your
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columns. One of those um
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>> Secret Diary.
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>> Yeah, Secret Diary.
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>> Was it the A Secret Diary of Dom Harvey
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>> something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I
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was on commercial radio for like a
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number of years. David Bre on a station
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called The Edge. And I would have done
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something oish or buffoonish and I would
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would have deserved a public bollocking
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and um rightfully I I got one from the
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great Steve Bronners.
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>> I'm sure it wasn't a bollocking. It
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might have been a gentle mocking,
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>> but you you have been described as
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merciless. Merciless. What um if you
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looked up in the thesaurus, what are
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some other words for merciless? What
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does what does that mean?
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>> Um
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>> like savage.
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>> Savage, cold, unfeilling, lacking in
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empathy, ruthless. These are good
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synonyms.
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>> Is Is that fair? Are you merciless? Oh,
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I I I yeah, I would have to acknowledge
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that sometimes that that would be true.
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Um yes, uh professionally
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um that would be accurate and you know
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there's there's often not a a great
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distinction between your professional
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life and your personal life as well.
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So, um yeah, I I think that would be um
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mainly a kind of failing
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um as a person and as a as a writer and
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a journalist, but sometimes it it can
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be, you know, harnessed to good effect.
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Um, I guess I'm one of these sort of
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writers who um,
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you know, I just can't resist a lot of
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things.
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And um, you know, I'm the sort of person
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who will write something and think,
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"Yep, yeah, you you you should say
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this."
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And then, you know, subsequently regret
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it
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>> and and beat myself up. So, you used to
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think, [ __ ] that's a little bit mean,
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but [ __ ] it. YOLO. It's funny. Send.
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>> It's It's more of a sort of a matter of
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is it um is it
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does it belong to the story and is it
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accurate to the story? And um
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yeah, it the sort of god that I that
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that I've that I've you know kind of
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worshiped over the years is this idea of
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the story. You know the story has to be
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intact and the story has to be honest
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and um it's often at the expense of the
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person who writes it which is me.
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>> Yeah. cuz there was that column I found
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that described you as merciless but um
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if you do a deep dive or you know I know
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you've got a lot of fans a lot of people
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that have probably read all your work
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like there's some columns that you've
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written which are like about your
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daughter and about your personal life
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and they're anything but they're yeah
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they're very um you're very soft and
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gentle. Yeah, it can be. Yeah. I mean,
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you know, everyone is complicated,
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right? No one is any one thing. And so I
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don't I don't see it as any particular
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contradiction or surprise that I should
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you know spend a lot of time say writing
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about murder trials and often or
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sometimes at least quite unfeillingly
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towards say the accused and then spend
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you know a great deal of my writing life
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uh writing quite sentimental columns
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about my mom, my daughter and people who
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I love in my life. Uh we're all like
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that. M
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>> yeah and the crime stuff that you're
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talking about. So this is your latest
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book um which was shroud in secrecy. I
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had to sign an NDA to get a copy of this
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in advance. Pulking horn inside the
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trial of the century. So that's your
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latest bit of work and I'm looking
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forward to getting into that. Um I like
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a lot of New Zealanders I think last
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year during the Pulking Horn trial um
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were had an insatable appetite for your
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updates, your columns.
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>> Cool. Thank you.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. you've managed to combine
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this um this fascination of yours with
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um court trials along with um like a
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career in writing um which is masterful.
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>> Oh, thank you. I don't know about that,
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but thank you.
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>> No, no, to to get paid to do what you
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love. I think anyone that can sort of um
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get that one over the line is done well
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>> because you're not like a court reporter
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per se. It's like um in a sort of an
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opinion piece or an observational piece.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. There there are daily court
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reporters who do a really thorough and
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you know superb job of sort of
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summarizing the day's events.
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It's hard work too. It's real hard work.
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You got to think fast. Uh you've got to
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take all sorts of things into
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consideration and the people who do it
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and do it really well I tip my hat to.
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Um that's not what I do. I I guess they
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are sort of interpretive. Um I was
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always uh I was just sort of interested
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in the idea of um
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attending a tri a trial and making some
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kind of literature out of it.
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>> So the Pokemon trial did you did you
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attend every single day?
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>> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
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>> So So you were there so everything the
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jurors heard you heard?
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>> Yes. Um
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yes that's true. And um I think it's the
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I may be wrong in in thinking this but I
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think it was the first trial
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uh that I attended where I was writing
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every single day of that trial. And so
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typically,
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you know, uh the trial would finish at 4
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or sometimes early at 4:00 or or or 5.
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Either way, I would um catch the bus
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home.
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don't drive.
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And um start writing the story on my
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phone with with one finger, not very
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good at thumbs.
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And I would write the story real fast on
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my phone. Uh the speed was partly
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because after being a day in court, your
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phone wears down. I was never clever
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enough to take a a charger. I don't have
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a laptop. I just took in a notebook and
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a pen. And so anyway, the charge was
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getting down to like 5% 2% kind of
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thing, you know, and so you had to write
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it and continue keep saving it, keep
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saving it and file to the newspaper uh
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pretty much by the time I got home on
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the bus
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>> every day. And uh it was it was,
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you know, it was it was a very exciting
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thing to do, you know, to try and create
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this kind of tension
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which is already there on the trial.
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Every day was tense. Every day was um
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every day was really interesting. You
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never knew how it was going to turn out
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in the end and you never knew what each
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day was going to uh unfold and what the
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arguments would be and also what you
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never knew quite what you felt about it.
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You know, um you can't help yourself.
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You go there as a journalist. Um you're
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not on the jury. You're not a
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prosecutor. You're not you're not the
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defense. and you're certainly not the
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judge.
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And you know, your your mind, well, my
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mind anyway, kept changing throughout
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the trial. Uh like, you know, you'd hear
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a devastating day by the prosecution and
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you go, "Oh my god, this appalling. He's
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clearly guilty. This is terrible. He did
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what they said he did." And then other
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days the defense would tear it apart,
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tear it down, which they often did. And
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you go, "Hang on a minute." You know,
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reasonable doubt has been more than
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established here. Let that man go.
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>> And that was the latter, wasn't it, for
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the jury?
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>> Is is that what attracts you to court
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cases in general? Just the drama of it.
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>> What is it?
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>> Yeah.
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Well, um
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it's what gets said in a room
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about something which is,
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you know, happened usually very fast. It
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doesn't take long to kill someone or for
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someone to be killed by their own hand
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if that's the case.
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And it's this um intense recreation of
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something which has possibly only taken
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a couple of minutes to achieve.
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And um it's this huge test of character,
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>> you know, and um
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>> with the highest stakes imaginable.
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>> Such high stakes. Um
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it's the character of the accused and is
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also the sort of associated tragedies of
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the accused family and the families of
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the alleged you know victim.
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>> And um
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I think the time I I I realized I I I
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the first time I felt this most
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intensely about the families and their
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predicament.
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It wasn't a murder trial. I I I
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sometimes make a point of going to the
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most seemingly boring trial that there
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is. Uh a trial where no one from the
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press wants to go to. And you know,
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perhaps no one wants to read about. To
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me, that's fascinating. But why not?
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It's the same thing somebody whose life
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or freedom or liberty is on the line. It
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was a um it was a methamphetamine
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possession trial. media avoided it like
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the plague went on and on and I couldn't
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tear myself away, you know, like at the
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end of every day I go, "Don't go back
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and I'd be there at 10:00 a.m. the next
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day."
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And it was a it was an Iranian fella.
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It was all a fast. After the jury
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found him guilty, he he and between that
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and sentencing, he he he acknowledged
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>> his guilt. Um
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it was all a fast really, but it took
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forever. And and the point I'm trying to
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make is that there was barely anyone in
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the public gallery too, you know, which
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again makes it more interesting like why
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is everyone avoiding this? Why is there
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a vacuum here? And it gives it a certain
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kind of poignency and a tragedy that no
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one cares,
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you know. Uh, pretty much the only
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people in the courtroom that I remember
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was this Iranian fella's wife and child,
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very young kid, beautiful looking boy,
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gorgeous looking fella with big eyes. He
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was about three, I think.
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>> Used to play with him sometimes.
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And um I remember thinking that um
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the wife who came out of you know a
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terrific sort of loyalty to her husband
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uh I remember thinking of her as like a
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uh a balloon
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and the string was the trial. You know
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she had a place in this trial that she
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was attached to it and then she came to
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realize that she was totally irrelevant
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actually. It was all being performed
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without her and you just sort of saw her
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or sensed her float to the top of the
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room. She was unnecessary and it was so
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incredibly sad to see and um and you see
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that you know uh the frustrations of
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family
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uh particularly of of of the alleged
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victim and murder trials. You know,
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they're so frustrated they can't say
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anything. They can't do anything. they
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just have to let it pass in front of
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them while they float around this
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courtroom having no sort of corporeal
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existence.
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>> Um so yeah, that sort of thing is is
00:13:02
terribly sad. The poignency of it is is
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is attractive.
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Um
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and it all takes part it all takes place
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in one room for you to observe and to
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listen and to watch.
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>> So Dr. Philip Pulking Horn. Um,
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>> did you like him? Would you say your
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mates?
00:13:26
>> I did like him. Yeah. Um, I did like
00:13:30
him. We We It was highly unusual. You
00:13:32
know, the accused in these cases
00:13:35
normally sort of sequestered away behind
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glass. And Philip had the run of the
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courtroom. He took up a whole expensive
00:13:42
row of real estate to himself in the
00:13:45
courtroom. And so he was very
00:13:46
accessible. And you'd go in the morning
00:13:49
and each day and go, "Morn, Phil."
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Have a chat during the daytime at
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recesses. Um,
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>> about what?
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>> Often it was small talk. Sometimes it
00:14:01
was big talk. I suppose he um I remember
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he he he he said at one quite crucial
00:14:08
point, it was a bad day for Phil that
00:14:10
day. Uh the prosecution were banging
00:14:14
this drum of his um of his uh enjoyment
00:14:18
of sex workers and it made him look
00:14:21
super bad. You know,
00:14:25
Phil failed the test of character in
00:14:27
that trial, didn't he? Nobody liked him.
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>> Pretty sure the jury didn't like him.
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>> But it was uh it was this huge sort of
00:14:37
character assassination. And of course,
00:14:39
it had a point to the prosecution. And
00:14:41
they were they were tying it to to the
00:14:43
killing
00:14:45
to the death rather of Pauline Hannah
00:14:48
his wife.
00:14:52
But often it did seem kind of
00:14:54
sensationalist. It seemed very tabloid
00:14:57
and it seemed irrelevant and unconnected
00:14:59
to what had happened that night.
00:15:02
And that one one of those particular
00:15:04
days he was seething with rage and and
00:15:08
you know as we put on our coats it was
00:15:10
winter time to leave he was putting on
00:15:13
his coat and I said bye Phil see you
00:15:15
tomorrow and he said come over here you
00:15:18
know I said you all right he said no I'm
00:15:21
disgusted you know
00:15:24
shocking day shocking day and then he
00:15:25
said you wait you wait till the science
00:15:28
you wait till we bring out science
00:15:30
science.
00:15:32
I thought, "Yeah, sure. I'll wait."
00:15:35
Um, but he was right. It was the science
00:15:37
which um surely liberated him.
00:15:41
>> Did Did he read your columns? Like when
00:15:43
you called him what did you call him? A
00:15:44
like a malignant malignant malignant sex
00:15:47
dwarf.
00:15:48
>> Yes, that's that's the one.
00:15:50
>> It's a hell of a line. Did he like does
00:15:52
he pull you aside and say, "Hey, Steve,
00:15:54
that was a little uncharitable." Or
00:15:57
>> do you do you write something like that
00:15:58
and think that's a great line, send? And
00:16:00
then the next day you're like, "Oh my
00:16:01
god, these are the guy I wrote it
00:16:02
about."
00:16:03
>> Yeah. Every day. Every day of my
00:16:05
professional life. Dom, you've summed it
00:16:08
up. Um,
00:16:12
yeah. Malignant sex dwarf. Um, I I don't
00:16:16
think he did read them. Um,
00:16:18
pretty sure that Ron Mansfield, his his
00:16:21
his brilliant defense lawyer, who, you
00:16:24
know,
00:16:26
constantly will say, "I don't read my
00:16:29
press. I'm pretty sure he was reading
00:16:30
them
00:16:31
>> every day. Uh there would be the
00:16:33
occasional time I'd refer to his
00:16:35
expanding waistline and he would come in
00:16:38
in the morning and pat his tum and glare
00:16:40
at me.
00:16:43
>> Yeah. The book just the observations in
00:16:45
your book like talking about um Pulking
00:16:47
Horn's lawyer, Ron Ron Mansfield. talk
00:16:49
about his the the shape of his teeth and
00:16:50
how that that little and how how he eats
00:16:52
Royal Gala apples and just these little
00:16:55
nuances, a little behind the scenes that
00:16:56
no one else would potentially notice,
00:16:58
but you do. And I suppose that's one of
00:17:00
your strengths.
00:17:01
>> Yeah. It's not part of the normal court
00:17:02
record, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. I
00:17:06
mean, the closest I I I did perform uh
00:17:09
the role of a daily court reporter years
00:17:12
and years ago. Uh, I I was lucky enough
00:17:15
to get a job at the Greymouth Evening
00:17:18
Star and they wanted me as a court
00:17:21
reporter, which I'd never done before,
00:17:22
never been into a courtroom.
00:17:25
And um,
00:17:28
you know, it it it it was a kind of at
00:17:31
least a good grounding for the kind of
00:17:33
writing that I was to do many many years
00:17:36
later, decades later really.
00:17:39
Um, and it was uh it was it was so
00:17:47
I didn't really do anything about courts
00:17:49
until 2005.
00:17:53
So from like 1985
00:17:55
to 2005, 20 year absence really. And
00:17:59
what got me back into it was the Anthony
00:18:01
Dixon murder trials with the guy with
00:18:03
the samurai sword
00:18:05
>> who people always forget, you know, he
00:18:07
wasn't on trial for the samurai sword.
00:18:09
He was really he was on trial for
00:18:12
picking up a uh a machine gun, I think,
00:18:17
something like that. and and shooting a
00:18:20
guy who had never met before in a
00:18:22
service station just cuz
00:18:26
I mean he did go at and attempt to
00:18:29
murder two women with this sword but
00:18:33
yeah there was a 20-year gap in between
00:18:36
and um I was you know I found court
00:18:39
really interesting as a young guy and
00:18:42
Greymouth and Greymouth kept you pretty
00:18:44
busy as a court reporter you know there
00:18:47
was lots of things going on. Assault was
00:18:51
the main thing.
00:18:53
Um,
00:18:55
yeah, it was like it was like, you know,
00:18:58
it's a pretty small town. You know, it
00:19:00
should really the court really by rights
00:19:03
should only been sitting two to three
00:19:04
days a week, but it was full every day.
00:19:08
You know, Greybar's got a particular
00:19:10
sort of set of circumstances which is
00:19:13
going to lead to the district court
00:19:14
being real busy every day. Um but yeah,
00:19:18
I didn't write about um the shape of
00:19:21
people's of courtroom lawyers teeth and
00:19:24
the way that they tore into gala apples
00:19:26
as a metaphor for the way that they uh
00:19:29
approached trial work back then. That's
00:19:32
for sure.
00:19:35
>> I suppose that comes with um you earn
00:19:38
that right over the years with the
00:19:40
experience.
00:19:42
>> I don't know. What do you think?
00:19:43
>> H
00:19:45
[Music]
00:19:47
I don't know. I I I I never looked at it
00:19:50
that way. It was um
00:19:52
>> I mean, as a junior reporter, they're
00:19:54
going to be like, "Brawnous, go back to
00:19:56
your typewriter."
00:19:57
>> Yeah.
00:19:57
>> No one cares about the the type of apple
00:19:59
it is.
00:20:00
>> Yeah. True, true. They would have if I'd
00:20:02
attempted to write something like that.
00:20:04
Um I don't know. I mean, it's always
00:20:07
seemed like a um it always just seemed
00:20:10
like a good idea
00:20:11
>> to to when I eventually did start to
00:20:14
write that way about courtroom trials,
00:20:15
it seemed like a good idea to attempt to
00:20:18
write some kind of literature
00:20:21
um about them. You know, one one thing I
00:20:23
learned from that um experience in
00:20:27
Greymouth
00:20:29
is that when there was a particularly
00:20:31
interesting um case in Greymouth,
00:20:36
I never had to buy a drink.
00:20:40
>> Go to the Golden Eagle pub after work
00:20:43
and people, "Oh my god, Bronnius, have a
00:20:45
beer. Tell me what happened today. What
00:20:48
happened?"
00:20:50
And um people were fascinated, you know,
00:20:53
and of course that was kind of writ
00:20:56
slightly larger really during the
00:20:57
pulking horn trial, you know. I'd be I'd
00:21:00
get off the bus still typing on my phone
00:21:03
as it got down to 1%.
00:21:05
>> And people be coming up to you between
00:21:07
the bus and my house going, "What
00:21:08
happened? What was it like? What
00:21:10
happened? What did you think? What are
00:21:11
you writing?" Well, I'm writing it now.
00:21:13
Leave me alone.
00:21:14
>> You get her on premium. You'll read it
00:21:16
tomorrow.
00:21:18
>> That's right. But yeah, it was that
00:21:19
similar sort of um
00:21:23
it was that similar sort of thing. This
00:21:25
this you know pretty
00:21:28
I've always thought that that the
00:21:29
fascination that people have with with
00:21:31
with trials that I've covered. Um yeah,
00:21:35
there's an element of of vulturism.
00:21:38
Yeah, there's a a small element of
00:21:41
voyerism, but really I I think it's a
00:21:44
totally excusable and tolerable human
00:21:47
emotion. uh almost a decent one, you
00:21:50
know.
00:21:51
>> Um
00:21:53
>> I thought that particularly during the
00:21:54
Grace Mlain trial
00:21:56
>> and the way that people were interested
00:21:58
in that, it wasn't anything dark or like
00:22:01
a dark tourism.
00:22:03
>> I don't think there was any nasty in our
00:22:06
great interest in that trial. I think it
00:22:08
was out of a a common sort of decency
00:22:11
that we uh you know even before we
00:22:14
learned that Grace had been killed,
00:22:17
>> Grace was missing. Do you remember that,
00:22:19
Dom?
00:22:19
>> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I I think
00:22:21
everyone could sort of feel like they
00:22:23
knew a Grace or there was a huge amount
00:22:25
of empathy in an outpouring for David
00:22:27
and Jillian.
00:22:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know what I'm I'm
00:22:32
trying to remember the exact days. I
00:22:34
think there were maybe three days
00:22:36
>> of this sudden announcement. Grace is
00:22:38
missing
00:22:39
>> and and it kind of
00:22:42
>> seized the nation with this longing to
00:22:44
find her. Where is she?
00:22:49
And for it to end like that in this like
00:22:51
really appalling way with the suitcase.
00:22:56
Um
00:22:58
people were so devastated by that and
00:23:01
they followed the trial out of this sort
00:23:03
of
00:23:04
>> huge warmth and suffering that they felt
00:23:08
for for grace.
00:23:10
So yeah, a long way from any kind of um
00:23:13
gaining some dark thrill with pulking
00:23:17
horn. Um that was a different thing.
00:23:20
That was not the same feeling at all.
00:23:23
Um there was I mean this is an
00:23:28
extraordinary sort of thing to say I
00:23:30
suppose Dom but the sense that I picked
00:23:33
up of people constantly coming up to me
00:23:38
during that what was it eight weeks
00:23:40
>> and talking to me or getting hold of me
00:23:42
by email and stuff. Uh
00:23:46
well the word I would use for it was
00:23:48
happiness.
00:23:50
I think it I think there was
00:23:52
>> some sort of entertainment.
00:23:54
>> Hate to use that word.
00:23:55
>> Yeah, I know. It's it it it doesn't seem
00:24:00
apt, does it? Neither does the word
00:24:01
happiness.
00:24:02
>> Um I think it was more than
00:24:04
entertainment. I do think it was a it
00:24:06
was a sort of a happiness. It was a uh
00:24:08
it was a hard winter.
00:24:11
>> Uh the recession was coming in. The cost
00:24:14
of living was this huge remains. But it
00:24:17
first became this huge issue. you know,
00:24:19
everyone was feeling a pinch and along
00:24:22
comes this thing and you know, when
00:24:25
people would come up to me, it wasn't
00:24:27
with a furrowed brow. It was with a huge
00:24:30
grin,
00:24:31
>> you know. Um, and it wasn't about
00:24:34
obviously, you know, the murder of
00:24:36
Pauline, and it wasn't a matter of
00:24:38
taking any kind of delight that Pauline
00:24:41
had died. It was a a delight in the um
00:24:46
the private life
00:24:48
of this guy being revealed in in such
00:24:52
sort of
00:24:54
excruciating and sorted detail.
00:24:59
>> Yeah. I suppose it just highlights that
00:25:01
no one's perfect. Like we've all got
00:25:02
like dirty laundry, don't we? Um and
00:25:04
none of us would want all our dirty
00:25:06
laundry like every last garment exposed.
00:25:08
And that's exactly what
00:25:09
>> Is this our opportunity? Do are you go
00:25:14
But did did do do you think as someone
00:25:15
that was there um for every moment of
00:25:18
every day, did the jury get it right?
00:25:22
>> If you if you were a juror,
00:25:25
>> good jury, by the way,
00:25:28
>> what makes a good jury?
00:25:29
>> They were they concentrated. They were
00:25:31
attentive.
00:25:34
at least um
00:25:38
at least 11 of them.
00:25:41
>> 11 out of 12 ain't bad.
00:25:43
>> Pardon?
00:25:44
>> 11 out of 12 isn't bad.
00:25:45
>> It's it's pretty darn good really. You
00:25:49
know, the amount of juries you see and
00:25:51
it's not an indictment on them. I mean,
00:25:53
it's boring a lot of the time. from a
00:25:56
murder trial. These arguments between
00:25:58
prosecution, defense over some sort of
00:26:01
very small point which is not germanine
00:26:05
or relevant.
00:26:07
Um so yeah, a lot of a lot of
00:26:11
a great number of people on juries are
00:26:14
constantly visibly bored out of their
00:26:16
tree. Not this one. Not this one. This
00:26:20
one.
00:26:23
Same with the melain actually. I mean
00:26:25
that was that was impossible for them to
00:26:27
be bored by that. But the amount of
00:26:30
writing that I saw them uh do in the
00:26:33
Malay trial, man, that's that they must
00:26:36
have written
00:26:40
>> honestly at a guess 700,000 words.
00:26:43
>> Wow.
00:26:45
Well, to put that in perspective, your
00:26:46
new book, that's what 80,000
00:26:49
>> I think. Yeah, it's about 80 to 90, I
00:26:50
think. Yeah. Um and that Yeah.
00:26:54
the jury on that one. Sorry, your
00:26:56
question was, did they get it right? And
00:26:58
I'm sorry not to answer that directly.
00:27:00
The answer would be yes,
00:27:03
>> as in
00:27:04
what they were presented with. Um, yeah,
00:27:09
they they they
00:27:12
I mean, they did that really fascinating
00:27:14
thing at the end where they handed in
00:27:16
the note to the judge.
00:27:20
You know, it's always interesting when a
00:27:22
jury does that. you know, they get sent
00:27:24
out to deliberate and they very often
00:27:26
will will um is this this this custom
00:27:29
dom. It's it's kind of it's often kind
00:27:33
of terrifying.
00:27:35
The jury gets sent out and when they are
00:27:38
either ready with their verdict or they
00:27:41
want to ask a question, they knock on
00:27:44
the door that they're behind. This knock
00:27:47
and it can be so frightening. Oh my god,
00:27:51
it's it's going to happen. We're about
00:27:53
to find out this person is either going
00:27:55
to go away or they're not.
00:27:59
And it's so frightening. And you think
00:28:00
back to the death of the person and the
00:28:03
families involved and you know, word
00:28:07
goes around the court, calls are made,
00:28:09
texts, everyone sort of swarms back to
00:28:12
court
00:28:14
and and you see them come back to court
00:28:17
as families and they can barely breathe.
00:28:23
You know,
00:28:24
>> I remember it was like that at
00:28:26
nighttime.
00:28:28
It was a nighttime verdict. If I pretty
00:28:31
sure I'm accurate in remembering this,
00:28:32
it was a nighttime verdict.
00:28:35
Uh this is a very unpleasant trial, the
00:28:38
Louise Nicholas trial, Clinton
00:28:41
Rickard's,
00:28:43
Brad Shipp, Grant Scholam, all accused
00:28:46
of rape as senior police officers.
00:28:50
And yeah, the jury, the knock came in
00:28:52
and you know, if you just happen to be
00:28:55
sitting in court at that time like doing
00:28:59
stuff and you're there to hear the
00:29:00
knock, so frightening.
00:29:03
>> And yeah, sorry. I I I heard them. I
00:29:06
heard the knock
00:29:08
uh in the Pulking Horn trial
00:29:11
both times, one for the note and one for
00:29:13
the verdict.
00:29:15
and the note. Getting back to that, they
00:29:17
knocked on the door to say that they had
00:29:19
a note. So, you all converge.
00:29:22
It's just the note is there's not this
00:29:24
feeling of tension in the air, but a
00:29:26
little bit of it. It's like, what do
00:29:27
they what's their question? What what
00:29:29
they got? Sometimes it's it's of no
00:29:32
consequence.
00:29:34
This one was very consequential.
00:29:37
They they they had a note and it said,
00:29:41
"Some of us do not believe there is
00:29:45
enough proof
00:29:48
that this was a suicide.
00:29:52
Equally, some of us do not think there
00:29:54
is enough proof for a verdict of murder.
00:29:58
What do we do?" And it was this like
00:30:01
kind of gnomic question.
00:30:05
Oh.
00:30:07
So she didn't kill herself. Ergo, she
00:30:10
must have been killed would be the
00:30:11
logical
00:30:14
>> reading of it. But it wasn't like that.
00:30:15
It was like we don't believe in
00:30:17
anything.
00:30:19
And the judge did what the judge had to
00:30:22
do, which was like, we're not here to um
00:30:26
rule on a suicide. We're here to rule on
00:30:28
a murder. If you don't think there's
00:30:30
enough proof
00:30:32
for a murder, then
00:30:34
you kind of got your verdict. And yeah,
00:30:36
they came back not not too long after,
00:30:39
maybe it was the next day, I'm not sure.
00:30:43
And they said not guilty. So yeah, they
00:30:44
they they they got it right. There
00:30:46
wasn't there wasn't enough proof. The um
00:30:49
and Pulking Horns, you know, comment,
00:30:52
very angry comment to me one day early
00:30:54
in the trial about you wait, you wait
00:30:56
for our science. He got it. He got it.
00:30:58
He hit the nail on the head. He was
00:31:00
totally right. When the defense began
00:31:03
their their defense of uh Dr. Philip
00:31:07
Pulkinghorn, they called in two forensic
00:31:09
pathologists who both said with great
00:31:13
resolution and conviction. There is no
00:31:16
evidence
00:31:18
to suggest that this was that she had
00:31:21
been hanged.
00:31:24
>> And they were so persuasive. They were
00:31:27
so unmovable.
00:31:29
They did not equivocate in
00:31:31
cross-examination from the prosecution.
00:31:35
They held to that ground.
00:31:37
And it was like, wow. You could just
00:31:39
feel like the whole sort of circus tent
00:31:42
collapsing. The show was over.
00:31:45
>> Uh, you know,
00:31:47
accuse somebody of murder, the murderer,
00:31:50
the accused says, "Prove it."
00:31:53
>> That's it. That's it in a nutshell.
00:31:55
>> That's the criminal justice system.
00:31:57
Prove it. you um yeah, you don't have to
00:32:00
answer this. Uh but you can if you want.
00:32:02
Do do you think uh Dr. Pulking Hall is
00:32:04
responsible for the death of Pauline
00:32:06
Hannah?
00:32:07
>> Uh it's the it's the one question to ask
00:32:09
and of course you should ask it. And um
00:32:12
I've got a disappointing answer. I I was
00:32:15
I was open to it
00:32:18
>> when I entered the trial.
00:32:22
Still open to it.
00:32:24
>> Um I don't know is the answer.
00:32:27
No, no, I only only one person does.
00:32:31
>> Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah,
00:32:35
>> I I should be able to, you know, come
00:32:37
down on one side or another. I honestly
00:32:39
should, but um
00:32:42
it just wouldn't be accurate.
00:32:44
>> I don't know.
00:32:46
>> Getting
00:32:46
>> I don't know what I think.
00:32:47
>> Yeah.
00:32:48
>> Yeah.
00:32:50
H getting to know him the way you did
00:32:52
through the 8week trial, like how did
00:32:55
you feel in in the leadup to the verdict
00:32:56
then when the verdict was was read out?
00:32:58
Was it like a a sense of relief? Um a
00:33:02
sense of rage, indifference?
00:33:05
>> I like your last word. Um it was closest
00:33:08
to it was closest to indifference.
00:33:12
>> Um it wasn't exactly that. It was
00:33:15
closely related to that. It was um
00:33:21
was a kind of emptiness,
00:33:25
you know.
00:33:26
>> It was
00:33:28
all that for for for this. Um it was
00:33:33
sad.
00:33:35
>> It was sad on so many levels. It was,
00:33:40
you know,
00:33:42
one of the one of the first sort of sad
00:33:44
consequences of it was that um you had
00:33:46
to then
00:33:49
accept by that verdict that it it's like
00:33:53
turning the jury's note around. Oh, if
00:33:56
she hadn't been killed, then she must
00:33:58
have ended her own life. That's what
00:34:00
you're saying to me, isn't it?
00:34:02
>> And that was sad to to to entertain that
00:34:05
possibility. Mhm.
00:34:06
>> Um it was really sad for Pauline's
00:34:10
family. I um really more than Phil. Um I
00:34:15
really like Bruce who was Pauline's
00:34:18
sister. Pauline's brother, Bruce Hannah.
00:34:22
Hell of a nice guy. Fair dinkham. Kiwi
00:34:26
guy.
00:34:28
um straight up, honest,
00:34:31
>> warm,
00:34:33
devastated,
00:34:35
you know, really liked him. I really
00:34:37
liked um her best friend who came to the
00:34:40
trial most days, if not every day. Um
00:34:43
Feeasant Reedan, lovely woman.
00:34:47
Um
00:34:49
there's a uh
00:34:51
Did you watch the documentary?
00:34:54
>> Yes.
00:34:54
>> Yeah.
00:34:55
>> Yeah. The one with the the private eye.
00:34:57
and the and the the nothing phone call
00:35:01
which I'm you reference in the book like
00:35:03
she had a phone call from a woman a
00:35:04
couple of months before that said I
00:35:05
think my husband's cheating and then
00:35:06
hung up and there was no she thinks it
00:35:08
may have been Pauline but she's not
00:35:10
really sure
00:35:11
>> yeah what a
00:35:12
>> I'm pleased you highlighted that in your
00:35:13
book because it's like what is that
00:35:16
>> yeah what is that exactly what a what a
00:35:19
nonsense um yeah no the reason I
00:35:23
mentioned the documentary which was
00:35:24
otherwise um other other than her the
00:35:28
privateized non-involvement and vain
00:35:31
parading of herself throughout the show
00:35:33
was otherwise really excellent uh quite
00:35:36
meticulous
00:35:38
um and it was true to the trial too
00:35:41
which is what what what I hope the book
00:35:42
is Dom is true to the trial in as much I
00:35:46
I I hope my book and I think the
00:35:47
documentary were true to the spirit of
00:35:50
the trial and its and its its wildness
00:35:54
you know
00:35:55
>> the the documentary century. Um,
00:36:00
you know, it it's it's wildly
00:36:02
entertaining. It's got this incredible
00:36:05
interview with um woman who we haven't
00:36:09
mentioned yet, which is Madison Ashton,
00:36:11
>> who just, you know, it's it's it's real
00:36:15
life stuff. It's true crime to to to
00:36:18
coin that that unfortunate phrase. Um,
00:36:21
Madison steals the show. She's so
00:36:23
watchable. She's so funny. She's so
00:36:26
vivid.
00:36:28
Um,
00:36:30
and indeed she uh, you know, she gives a
00:36:33
long interview in my book and
00:36:37
you know, her answers uh, the way she
00:36:39
spoke so great. She's so clever.
00:36:43
Honestly, you know, I'd love to be able
00:36:45
to talk like that. She she talks like a
00:36:48
writer. These perfectly formed
00:36:50
sentences.
00:36:51
>> She's really interesting. Um
00:36:56
yeah. Uh uh
00:37:01
>> you can see why he was charmed by her,
00:37:03
can't you?
00:37:04
>> Oh yes. Yeah.
00:37:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. You can um you know she
00:37:13
deserved better. You know, she's a
00:37:16
lovely person. Got a lot to give. she
00:37:18
deserved a uh a really good solid loving
00:37:24
relationship, you know, as much as
00:37:26
anybody does really. Um, and I think
00:37:29
that was um
00:37:32
that that became a huge issue in the
00:37:34
trial because she felt that the cops she
00:37:37
was going to be called as a witness for
00:37:38
the prosecution and it may well have
00:37:41
been she didn't appear.
00:37:44
Had she appeared, it may well have been
00:37:46
really devastating and it may well have
00:37:49
got the guilty verdict over the line.
00:37:52
>> She didn't appear because she felt the
00:37:54
cops disrespected her and that they
00:37:56
didn't look upon um the fact that she
00:37:59
had a relationship with Pulking Horn
00:38:01
with any uh with any kind of they didn't
00:38:04
acknowledge it was her feeling. you
00:38:06
know, they just regarded her as a sex
00:38:09
worker, which is her occupation.
00:38:13
But her her whole relationship with
00:38:16
Pulking had sort of evolved from him
00:38:19
being a client of of hers
00:38:23
um to them, you know, having a de facto
00:38:27
relationship.
00:38:28
>> And she felt as though the cops never
00:38:29
acknowledged that. And she felt really
00:38:31
angry about that. And she flipped them
00:38:34
the bird and said, "I'm not coming. I'm
00:38:36
not attending your stupid trial. And uh
00:38:39
it could have been really crucial. We
00:38:42
don't know.
00:38:43
>> Yeah, we'll never know. Um the last
00:38:46
chapter of your book uh chapter 13, it's
00:38:48
called At Home with Pulking Horn. So
00:38:50
this um I found this riveting. It
00:38:53
doesn't paint him as a very nice man.
00:38:57
Yeah, just in terms in terms of how he's
00:38:59
still denies using meth, blaming it on
00:39:01
Pauline, just being really uncharitable
00:39:03
to this woman he supposedly loved after
00:39:05
her death, whether it was at his hands
00:39:07
or otherwise. Um,
00:39:10
>> uh, Madison referring to her as
00:39:12
basically like a work colleague and a
00:39:15
professional relationship gone wrong.
00:39:17
>> Um,
00:39:19
just turning himself into a victim for
00:39:21
the way the police put him in a car and
00:39:23
locked him in there for 15 minutes with
00:39:24
his own thoughts.
00:39:25
>> Mhm. Um, yeah, he does like regardless
00:39:29
of what you think about the trial,
00:39:30
whether he got away with murder or
00:39:31
didn't, he he doesn't seem like a very
00:39:33
nice man.
00:39:34
>> Yeah, that that that that was the the
00:39:36
heavy sigh I gave before, Dom. It wasn't
00:39:40
wasn't at you raising it at all. It was
00:39:43
an acknowledgment that what you're
00:39:44
saying is quite right. Um,
00:39:49
I mean, you know, silly old Phil he does
00:39:52
have a at the very least, you know, he
00:39:56
does have a terrible unpleasantness to
00:39:59
him. And for for him to say those things
00:40:02
and the way he said them,
00:40:04
you know, about about people, I thought
00:40:07
that's not right. You know, even down
00:40:10
well, not even down, but including the
00:40:12
um who's he's so steadfast
00:40:16
in denying that he possessed the
00:40:20
methamphetamine, you know, which he
00:40:22
pleaded guilty to at the outset of the
00:40:24
trial. And his explanation for that was
00:40:26
that the defense, his own lawyers said,
00:40:28
"Well, look, you should we advise you to
00:40:31
do that. It's just going to be another
00:40:33
can of worms."
00:40:36
>> He said, "Oh, well, you know, I'll do
00:40:37
it, but it wasn't mine." And you know,
00:40:41
at sentencing, the judge is like
00:40:43
something like, "Oh, look, you know,
00:40:44
you're still denying that." You know, I
00:40:47
mean, he didn't say this, but basically
00:40:49
the judge said, "Ah, [ __ ] you. M
00:40:52
>> you know
00:40:53
>> you're going down for that cuz he
00:40:54
pleaded guilty to it. That's why he
00:40:56
reappeared at sentencing. It wasn't for
00:40:58
Pauline's death. It was for the
00:40:59
methamphetamine and you know what did he
00:41:02
get community service or something like
00:41:04
150 hours.
00:41:06
>> Yeah. And
00:41:07
>> yeah but trying to blame it on her. I
00:41:08
mean there there was Yeah. She had
00:41:10
searches on her phone like what are the
00:41:11
effects of methamphetamine? Like she had
00:41:13
no she was clueless. She had no idea
00:41:15
what it did
00:41:15
>> quite Yeah. It would it would seem to be
00:41:17
the case. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was
00:41:22
>> Yeah. I mean, dear old Pauline, I wish
00:41:24
I'd met her. You know, she sounded fun.
00:41:26
She sounded pretty stam again with her
00:41:30
internet searches. She was searching,
00:41:34
>> you know, she was searching all these uh
00:41:37
authors,
00:41:38
you know, not too long before she she
00:41:40
died. I remember one of them was uh
00:41:43
Gustav Flo who's the author of Madame
00:41:45
Bovery and she would have loved that
00:41:49
book you know she would have really
00:41:51
loved that book about a
00:41:55
>> it's about a woman who marries unwisely
00:41:57
[Music]
00:42:00
>> love to have sat down with Pauline and
00:42:02
her brother Bruce over a bottle of wine
00:42:07
and Bruce Bruce had a signature dish
00:42:10
Indian meat deal that he liked to that
00:42:12
he liked to make.
00:42:14
>> Uh wouldn't it have been wouldn't have
00:42:15
been would have been such fun to have
00:42:17
met them totally outside of this tragedy
00:42:20
>> and go hi you seemed really terrific.
00:42:22
Let's let's let's drink this bottle.
00:42:24
Let's have this meal
00:42:27
uh and have a good old chat, you know,
00:42:30
and and I would have to say, you know,
00:42:33
and fulfill not to be present.
00:42:35
[Music]
00:42:36
>> Yeah. Will you keep in touch with him at
00:42:38
all? the the at the beginning of the
00:42:40
book there's a text that he sent you in
00:42:41
regards to um
00:42:43
>> your older brother's um death recently
00:42:44
which was
00:42:45
>> charitable.
00:42:46
>> Yeah, it was very charitable. This is
00:42:48
the thing he's you know at the very
00:42:50
least he's an unpleasant person but it's
00:42:53
not the only thing about him. I did like
00:42:55
him you know a fair bit by chatting to
00:42:58
him constantly throughout the trial and
00:43:01
getting a sense of him.
00:43:04
Um, and he is likable, you know, he is
00:43:07
he has a Yeah, I think he has a genuine
00:43:11
real generous streak. He's got a a
00:43:13
spirit of generosity.
00:43:16
Um, yeah, my my brother died uh in
00:43:20
December just before Christmas and um he
00:43:24
sent me this text out of the blue and I
00:43:27
was really touched by that. Um
00:43:31
I'm kind of I'm kind of um I'm more than
00:43:34
aware actually that when I when I
00:43:37
interviewed Madison and you know I would
00:43:40
have said to her oh look I I you know
00:43:42
for what it's worth I liked him. She
00:43:44
said don't you don't you do that you
00:43:46
know don't believe a word that comes out
00:43:48
of his mouth.
00:43:50
Anything he says to you which you regard
00:43:52
as nice is just him using you. You're
00:43:55
just this was her metaphor. you're just
00:43:58
toilet paper to him.
00:44:00
>> Um, hell of a hell of a metaphor.
00:44:03
Honestly, uh,
00:44:06
I respect Madison and and I think almost
00:44:08
everything she said I I I, you know,
00:44:11
thought was entirely accurate and true.
00:44:14
Um, but again, I I I would I gave uh
00:44:18
Phil uh the benefit of the doubt as per
00:44:21
the death of his wife and and as per
00:44:24
being a nice guy. Uh I I think
00:44:28
everybody's pretty much everyone is
00:44:30
capable of being a nice guy um
00:44:32
regardless of something they may have
00:44:35
done.
00:44:38
>> Well, thanks for sharing those insights.
00:44:40
Yeah. Yeah. Is that the you do will he
00:44:42
read this book? What do you think he'll
00:44:44
think of it?
00:44:45
>> What's the extent of your relationship
00:44:47
moving forward? Gee, um
00:44:53
I think the last time I the last time I
00:44:55
heard from Phil was uh when the
00:44:58
documentary
00:45:00
was screened or before it was screened,
00:45:03
the documentary makers had a had a
00:45:05
launch uh a private launch a private
00:45:08
screening for it to which I was invited.
00:45:13
You know, lots of journalists came to
00:45:15
that. And I get this text from Phil
00:45:19
saying, "Hey, are you going to the
00:45:20
screening?" Said, "Yeah, yeah. How are
00:45:22
you going?" "Yeah, I am." Sure. Well, I
00:45:24
don't know why I ever been invited.
00:45:27
I thought, "Wow." Um, I suppose he got a
00:45:30
point, you know, that he would take
00:45:32
umbrage at not being invited to a
00:45:35
screening essentially about his story.
00:45:39
Um, but conversely, you know, uh, uh,
00:45:42
equally, you know, I I'm having a a
00:45:45
private book launch for this book. Uh,
00:45:48
love you to come to that, Dom, but I'm
00:45:50
not going to invite Phil.
00:45:52
>> I think that would be in poor taste.
00:45:56
>> Has he asked you to write his book? I
00:45:57
believe he's been shopping around a book
00:46:00
even though he's not a writer.
00:46:02
>> Um,
00:46:03
>> apart from medical documents.
00:46:05
>> Yeah.
00:46:05
>> Which I believe are quite good.
00:46:07
>> Yeah, he is. Uh he's been he was working
00:46:10
on the book during the trial quite
00:46:12
assiduously. You know I I said to him
00:46:14
one day
00:46:16
um you know he he'd sit in front of his
00:46:18
his his screen all day and I would
00:46:21
slowly fill up with these quite dense
00:46:23
long paragraphs
00:46:26
and uh you couldn't quite see what they
00:46:28
were they were about. But I had this
00:46:30
epiphany one day and when court finished
00:46:32
for that day I took him aside and said
00:46:34
you're writing a book aren't you? Yep.
00:46:37
You damn right I am.
00:46:39
>> Um, what do you say it's called? Guilty
00:46:42
until proven innocent. Not a bad title.
00:46:45
>> Um, oh, you know, good luck to him. Uh,
00:46:48
in in in writing it and in finishing it.
00:46:54
Uh, anyone who writes a book, that's you
00:46:56
you know yourself, Dom, it's it's a it's
00:46:59
a pile of work.
00:47:00
>> Terrible payday as well. terribly hourly
00:47:03
rate.
00:47:06
>> It's not a good hourly rate, is it? But
00:47:08
no, good luck to him. Um, you know, his
00:47:11
book is going to be a document which
00:47:13
which sets out his um sets out his
00:47:17
innocence.
00:47:18
Um, he was found not guilty. So, you
00:47:21
know, fair enough uh for him to want to
00:47:24
do that. He's not the person not the
00:47:26
kind of person to just walk away,
00:47:29
>> you know. He um he's an interesting guy.
00:47:32
Um there was that comment that a um a
00:47:36
witness made during the trial.
00:47:39
Myra Rington was her name. Probably the
00:47:42
most interesting witness that we saw.
00:47:45
She lived in an apartment block on the
00:47:49
Northshore
00:47:50
and she was there to say that she saw
00:47:53
Pulking Horn arrive drive up
00:47:57
regularly at this apartment to have
00:48:00
appointments with a sex worker
00:48:04
who lived there. And her one of her
00:48:07
remarks was um he's a man who likes to
00:48:10
stand out. This was in reference to his
00:48:15
was Merc with the license with a with a
00:48:17
a catchy uh license plate to the fact he
00:48:21
wore bow ties. Um
00:48:24
>> that's right. Sometimes he turned up in
00:48:25
his like medical scrubs.
00:48:27
>> He did once.
00:48:29
Poor form, isn't it? Really? Good grief.
00:48:32
Um
00:48:33
>> that's right. With a bottle of
00:48:34
champagne.
00:48:34
>> Yeah. He did not arrive discreetly, you
00:48:36
know. He was like, "Here I am
00:48:41
in my Merc um wearing scrubs or a bow
00:48:45
tie, you know. Um it's so similar to
00:48:50
that. He he,
00:48:53
you know, he he's not a person in the in
00:48:56
the in the aftermath of this
00:48:59
extraordinary trial.
00:49:02
He's not a person to fade gently away.
00:49:06
>> Cuz that would be easy to do, wouldn't
00:49:07
it? Just move to Australia somewhere.
00:49:09
Move to Brisbane. Be a face in the
00:49:10
crowd.
00:49:11
>> Oh my god. You I
00:49:13
>> He's got the resources.
00:49:15
>> I You know, I caught up with him not
00:49:17
long after. And I said, "So,
00:49:19
>> what are you doing here?" You know, um,
00:49:25
move to the Gold Coast. Get the hell out
00:49:28
of here.
00:49:29
You know, I couldn't imagine him walking
00:49:31
around the neighborhood and putting up
00:49:34
with people staring at him or or hissing
00:49:37
at him or maybe worse, you know. Um I
00:49:42
haven't actually read it yet, Dom, but I
00:49:43
gather there's a story in the paper at
00:49:45
the moment. Have you seen this about his
00:49:48
real estate sign?
00:49:49
>> Oh, yeah. Just last weekend, um yeah,
00:49:51
someone graffitied it with the word
00:49:52
killer,
00:49:53
>> right?
00:49:54
>> Why would you want to hang around that
00:49:56
kind of scene, you know? Um well it his
00:50:00
answer would be I didn't do anything
00:50:02
wrong. Um leave me be. I like you know
00:50:08
he he likes Oakland. He's got he's got
00:50:11
people here.
00:50:12
>> He's got his his sister here lives down
00:50:15
the road from him.
00:50:18
Got every right to be here I guess. Um,
00:50:21
not not I'm not arguing against that,
00:50:23
but gee, you
00:50:25
>> you think nine people out of 10 would
00:50:27
go, you know what? I've always wanted to
00:50:30
live in Paraguay.
00:50:33
>> Well, what is he now? Like 73 72 73.
00:50:36
>> Yeah. Must be around there.
00:50:37
>> So, another another 10 15 years left
00:50:40
maybe. Go and enjoy it somewhere.
00:50:42
>> Paraguay. Yeah. Cheap property.
00:50:45
>> I don't know actually.
00:50:47
>> Yeah. I mean, he's been he's at the very
00:50:50
least, you know, you would think he's
00:50:52
been cancelled,
00:50:53
>> but he refuses to acknowledge it and
00:50:55
walks around to this day, you know. Um,
00:50:59
free as a bird. Um, I don't know. It's
00:51:02
his choice. It's his personality. It's
00:51:05
his it's his thing. Um, let him be, I
00:51:09
guess.
00:51:11
>> Thanks for those insights on Pulking
00:51:12
Horn. It's a Yeah, it's a great book. I
00:51:14
read the beginning of it and the end of
00:51:16
it. Um cuz I I only had limited time
00:51:18
before this podcast, but I'm looking
00:51:19
forward to reading the rest of it cuz
00:51:21
I'm legitimately enjoying it.
00:51:22
>> Look, I I I thoroughly enjoyed this
00:51:24
chat. Um
00:51:25
>> Oh, no, no, no. We're not wrapping up
00:51:27
the chat.
00:51:27
>> Oh, really? I thought I thought I
00:51:29
thought we were shaking hands.
00:51:30
>> No, it's the poking horn section.
00:51:32
>> That's the poking horn section. Is there
00:51:34
a worse one to follow?
00:51:35
>> No, not not at all. But you haven't done
00:51:37
a lot in the way of podcast. I was
00:51:38
telling you before we came in, I heard
00:51:39
one on because once a podcast is
00:51:41
published, it remains there until the
00:51:43
publisher removes it. And you've done
00:51:44
one with Simon Sweetman who's a uh a
00:51:47
writer.
00:51:48
>> Oh yeah.
00:51:49
>> Um
00:51:50
>> and there's another one with Graham Hill
00:51:51
which was like a radio segment which was
00:51:53
posted online on the podcast platforms.
00:51:54
But this is your first long form
00:51:56
platform about Steve Bronners
00:51:58
>> I guess. Is this what this is? Yeah.
00:52:00
Would be. Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten
00:52:02
those two. I mean they were
00:52:03
>> they were chats. Were they podcasts?
00:52:05
Were they?
00:52:06
>> Yeah. They're on the various podcast
00:52:07
apps,
00:52:08
>> right? Podcast apps.
00:52:10
>> Yeah. Like Spotify and Apple. You you're
00:52:12
playing dumb, right? You you've got a
00:52:14
your daughter's what 18 19? Yeah. You
00:52:17
know, you even mentioned Taylor Swift
00:52:19
before. You you know about podcasting.
00:52:23
I I I certainly know about it. I've
00:52:25
never play your character.
00:52:26
>> I've never listened to one in my life.
00:52:28
No. No. No. Actually, I listened to one
00:52:31
a few years ago. Put me off for life.
00:52:33
Really? Um I'm not I'm not a Yeah. God
00:52:37
mighty. The idea of this seems
00:52:40
contradictory to say because I'm
00:52:41
recording a podcast with you, but the
00:52:43
idea of sitting down to to to listen to
00:52:45
somebody chering on. Oh, the [ __ ]
00:52:49
death. Steve Bronnius talking about
00:52:52
Pulking Horn and his brand new book
00:52:54
Pulking Horn inside the toile of the
00:52:55
century is out now. That part of the
00:52:58
podcast came from a bigger conversation
00:53:00
that we had which includes stories about
00:53:02
Steve's life, his career, his thoughts
00:53:04
on aging, the future, uh, so much more
00:53:07
than that. That episode with Steve
00:53:10
Bronnius, an insight into the man
00:53:11
himself. It's going to be out later this
00:53:13
week. It's the next episode released on
00:53:15
the Dom Harvey podcast. As you heard
00:53:17
just there from Steve himself, it's his
00:53:20
worst nightmare. Just a couple of people
00:53:22
chering on, as he said. But yeah, if you
00:53:25
like Steve Bronnius and you like that
00:53:27
episode and you're curious to know more
00:53:29
about one of New Zealand's greatest
00:53:31
writers, check it out next on the Domy
00:53:34
podcast.