00:00:00
so gram Henry Ted welcome to my podcast
00:00:03
pleasure good to be here um first of all
00:00:07
um I apologize for the barage of
00:00:09
messages to try and get you to do it
00:00:11
we've been going back and forth for a
00:00:12
very long time oh 6 months perhaps no I
00:00:17
was always going to do it it was just a
00:00:18
matter of fitting
00:00:19
it yeah you so you're 70 77 now
00:00:23
78 is that is that is that important I'm
00:00:27
78 actually yeah well no it's um I think
00:00:30
it's um I'm probably older than you do
00:00:33
marginally well there's some mornings I
00:00:34
probably feel older than you I I I find
00:00:36
it inspiring because you you're still so
00:00:38
busy like I messaged you earlier in the
00:00:40
year and you said I can't do it just yet
00:00:41
cuz me and my wife are going on a trip
00:00:43
to the Antarctica um a couple of weeks
00:00:45
ago messaged again you're in Canada
00:00:47
you're all over the
00:00:49
place yeah we we've had a had a busy
00:00:51
year it's not we're not that busy most
00:00:54
years but just how happens at 24 seems a
00:00:57
busy year so I've been to Europe Canada
00:01:01
Antarctica going to South Africa for the
00:01:04
all black 2 test doing a safari in
00:01:06
between couple of trips to Fiji one with
00:01:09
a family one to Aly Williams's wedding
00:01:12
oh you are going to that I had um I had
00:01:15
his fiance an a mbre um in the podcast
00:01:18
the other day and I I asked her about
00:01:19
the wedding guest list I said who's
00:01:20
going that I Know Dan Richie and she she
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said none of my none of my business oh
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now I've got I've and I I do apologize I
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W say
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anymore well that's going to be
00:01:34
good yes I'm looking forward to it yeah
00:01:37
hey um I so appreciate you being here
00:01:39
I've done so much um research it's hard
00:01:42
to cram like a an amazing 78 years of
00:01:45
life um into a podcast but yeah we'll do
00:01:48
our best to cover some of the um some of
00:01:50
the I suppose greatest hats and greatest
00:01:52
shits of your
00:01:53
life unfortun so first of all um I found
00:01:57
this on the back of your book it's like
00:01:59
you're coaching stat sheet how how good
00:02:01
are you at recalling what you've done
00:02:03
and your records and percentages and
00:02:06
stuff I can't remember those but um I
00:02:09
look back with a lot of gratitude yeah
00:02:12
loved it very fortunate to go through
00:02:15
that experience well let's try a couple
00:02:17
of these just for a laugh all blacks
00:02:19
what was your what was your success
00:02:20
record I know that
00:02:22
one I think it was about
00:02:25
87.5 oh 85 calm down 85.7 was it and you
00:02:30
book at just his 85 okay um British
00:02:34
Lions ah we lost to Australia 2-1 the
00:02:38
test Series in
00:02:39
201 in fact it changed my life but that
00:02:41
was another story yeah your success
00:02:44
record there was 70% which on paper
00:02:47
doesn't look too bad but it would
00:02:48
scarred you deeply didn't it I just had
00:02:51
too much on Dom and I I hit the wall
00:02:54
actually and that's why I resigned from
00:02:56
Welsh rugby and and came back to New
00:02:58
Zealand so I got depression M uh self
00:03:02
assessment of course I didn't go to a to
00:03:05
a doctor or any but I just I just lost
00:03:07
all desire or energy to do the job and I
00:03:11
was contracted to Wales for 5 years and
00:03:14
I've been through three and a half years
00:03:16
of that contract so I was meant to go on
00:03:18
to the 2003 Rugby World Cup in Australia
00:03:21
but um I just couldn't couldn't do the
00:03:25
job I'd hit the
00:03:26
wall uh got overloaded didn't think I
00:03:29
would thought I was
00:03:30
bulletproof and uh I wasn't so that was
00:03:33
a great learning experience yeah I'd
00:03:35
love to get into that and some greater
00:03:37
detail later on if you'd be prepared to
00:03:40
um yeah yeah I've heard you talk about
00:03:44
this before and um it's so good to hear
00:03:47
um your guys in particular of a certain
00:03:48
age talking about this stuff openly I've
00:03:50
had John Hart do have you do you know
00:03:52
Hardy very well I know Hardy pretty well
00:03:54
yeah I've had him on the podcast and
00:03:55
there's a lot of parallels between what
00:03:57
you went through and what he went
00:03:58
through after 199 9 in the World Cup um
00:04:01
so we'll get into that a bit later um
00:04:04
first of all let's go right back to the
00:04:05
young gram Henry so good cricketer good
00:04:08
rugby player bit of a
00:04:11
smartass yeah that's a good summary is
00:04:14
it you got caned on your last day of
00:04:16
school hell are we going to go right
00:04:19
back there just briefly um yeah I I I
00:04:22
thought that was was a token really
00:04:27
ridiculous really looking back yeah it
00:04:29
was a master that haded in for you right
00:04:31
that was looking for I was a music
00:04:32
Master yeah I'd been playing Cricket for
00:04:35
Christ Jude boys vers Oran grammar
00:04:37
school so I hadn't hand him a text back
00:04:39
textbooks back to the textbook shop so I
00:04:43
was doing that and I was meant to be an
00:04:46
assembly
00:04:47
apparently so that's why I got Kane
00:04:49
ridiculous isn't it we're talking about
00:04:52
1964 when I refused to came from the
00:04:55
deputy Headmaster so I sent to the
00:04:58
Headmaster of Christ Church boys and he
00:05:02
gave me a couple of tokens on the bum
00:05:05
but um the staff got very upset about
00:05:08
that um at the Injustice at the
00:05:10
Injustice but you know it was just one
00:05:13
of those things that
00:05:15
happened um I thought it was an
00:05:17
injustice it wasn't a biggy you got into
00:05:20
the education system yourself so I'm
00:05:22
sure you got payback on a lot of there's
00:05:24
probably a lot of like middle-aged men
00:05:25
in the country that have got the honor
00:05:27
of being caned by Graham Henry
00:05:30
would be fa to say I think it hurt me
00:05:31
more than that hurt
00:05:36
them that's what my dad used to say
00:05:38
before he gave me the belt oh and I was
00:05:40
like no it doesn't trust me it's hurting
00:05:42
me the more the most well it was a a
00:05:45
quick sharp punishment and you got to
00:05:47
got on so it had its value yeah at the
00:05:50
time but I can understand why it's been
00:05:53
abolished there's been a lot more
00:05:55
communication between the school and the
00:05:57
parents now M which I guess is positive
00:06:00
yeah so tell us about um young rayan
00:06:05
Cochran rayan Cochran she she didn't
00:06:08
like in the beginning right and you wore
00:06:09
her
00:06:10
down yeah she thought I was a bit of a a
00:06:13
prick really what a prick is that is
00:06:16
that allowed to be on the podcast
00:06:18
anything go so we were in the same class
00:06:20
at physical education School in the
00:06:22
needen both Christ Church people didn't
00:06:24
know each
00:06:26
other um got together in the third year
00:06:30
of three so the first two years she
00:06:33
avoided me as I said I think she thought
00:06:36
I was a bit of a
00:06:38
twit um but once she got to know me
00:06:41
thank goodness she uh bent and uh we got
00:06:45
married very young ridiculous 23 and 21
00:06:48
1973 we're still together no 1970 D oh
00:06:53
really yeah you got that wrong but
00:06:55
that's okay um I'm going edit that out
00:06:57
you can't be right all the time and and
00:06:59
um so we've been married for 54 years
00:07:03
best best selection I've ever
00:07:06
made never dropped her
00:07:08
ones we're still married she's still my
00:07:11
current wife yeah yeah and I um I
00:07:13
actually I bumped into you guys in um
00:07:15
wcky Island maybe a couple of months ago
00:07:18
you two you're both not great for your
00:07:20
actually I was going to say for your age
00:07:21
but for any age you both walk briskly
00:07:23
through the car park um and you look you
00:07:26
look really happy like you know I think
00:07:28
you were holding hands at the time is
00:07:29
that right goodness me yeah must must
00:07:32
been an unusual situation but no no as I
00:07:36
say d most most important selection of
00:07:39
her life she's been
00:07:40
fantastic H she knows rugby that's not
00:07:43
why I married her but she came from a
00:07:45
rugby family two brothers and father all
00:07:48
played representative rugby two brothers
00:07:51
one played for New Zealand 20s one was
00:07:53
an old black
00:07:54
trialist U so she knew the
00:07:58
game which was a hell of an advantage
00:08:00
also a very good Sportsman Sports person
00:08:04
sportswoman in her own right uh coached
00:08:07
the Welsh Network team yeah coached
00:08:09
ockland New Zealand silver Fern
00:08:12
selector um so you know that
00:08:15
understanding of of sport at a high
00:08:18
level and what was required was a real
00:08:21
benefit and a real help you didn't she
00:08:23
initially um this might be just an urban
00:08:26
Legion but didn't she sort of initially
00:08:28
select Conrad Smith
00:08:30
oh that's a good
00:08:31
story yes well I came home one night
00:08:35
after being I think in denan and Conrad
00:08:37
was playing for the Hurricanes probably
00:08:40
in Wellington against somebody else so I
00:08:42
hadn't seen the game and I said how
00:08:44
would the game go hurricans playing
00:08:47
whoever she said you that Conrad Smith's
00:08:49
not a bad player well not you too Rowan
00:08:53
so BJ laor God bless him Miss de uh had
00:08:58
been talking about Conrad and we'd all
00:09:00
been talking about Conrad she said he's
00:09:02
a very intelligent
00:09:05
player oh okay so um in the Finish we
00:09:08
pit Conrad but I always tell the story
00:09:11
that Conrad got bit you know he got
00:09:14
overconfident because he knew I my
00:09:17
marriage was over I ever dropped
00:09:19
him so uh that was just a story but he
00:09:23
was a fabulous all black yeah he was but
00:09:26
you know she um she knew rugby and could
00:09:29
could see good players on the field and
00:09:31
understood the game you you must have um
00:09:34
tested her at times over the years um
00:09:36
like very early on you're in Christ
00:09:39
Church you just bought a house which was
00:09:41
no mean feet at the time and then um
00:09:43
straight away like you upticks and moved
00:09:45
to Oakland did you Did you sort of
00:09:46
discuss that with her or you looking at
00:09:49
me confused this was in your book or do
00:09:52
you just go home one day and say hey
00:09:53
I've got this job we're going to
00:09:55
Oakland yeah well you've done your
00:09:57
homework G and I'm not confused but I'm
00:10:00
just surprised at the
00:10:02
question yeah I probably didn't handle
00:10:04
it very well you know it was early time
00:10:06
in the marriage and
00:10:08
rayan's had never lived in her own house
00:10:11
parents didn't own their own house and
00:10:14
so it was really big deal for her big
00:10:16
deal for both of us and um I got a ring
00:10:19
from John Graham who was the principal
00:10:22
of walk and gramar school and he taught
00:10:24
me as a kid at Christ Church boys and he
00:10:27
also coached me at High Bol Boys Rugby
00:10:30
Club in Christ Church and all black in
00:10:31
his own right too right oh yeah all
00:10:33
black Captain he was he was a very
00:10:36
special person to me very fine teacher
00:10:39
great mentor I wouldn't be sitting here
00:10:42
talking to you if it hadn't been for him
00:10:44
so he rang me he's just started as
00:10:46
principal of of walk grammar school 1973
00:10:49
it was said there's a job here Ted do
00:10:51
you want it I could have bitten his arm
00:10:54
off because I was I was wavid at the
00:10:57
time hadn't really said any Roots down
00:11:00
and was making any progress say yes I'll
00:11:04
take yes I'll be there and I thought oh
00:11:07
hell new house new wife better discuss
00:11:11
that so before I made the decision
00:11:14
before I discuss it with the most
00:11:16
important
00:11:18
person uh so it wasn't easy uh CU
00:11:21
leaving Christ Church where we're born
00:11:23
and bread both of us U where our parents
00:11:26
were and uh to come up here but best
00:11:31
decision I ever made you you learned
00:11:34
your lesson so years decades down the
00:11:36
track when it's some time to leave New
00:11:37
Zealand and go to Wales you do run it
00:11:40
past rayn
00:11:42
first you're a difficult man with asking
00:11:45
difficult questions I'm sure I did um we
00:11:49
have to get ran in for a chat to get
00:11:51
here yeah yeah well it probably be
00:11:53
different from what I'm saying but I got
00:11:55
this invitation to go to Wales so she
00:11:58
knew about the
00:12:00
invitation um and when we decid when I
00:12:04
decided to go I think I'm sure we had
00:12:07
discussed it but I think the term was 5
00:12:12
years away from New Zealand was quite a
00:12:15
a hurdle but she's always been re always
00:12:19
been very supportive so I've been been
00:12:22
extremely lucky yeah yeah we'll get into
00:12:25
the the Wales chapter later on as well
00:12:27
there's there's just so much of your
00:12:29
story to get through like it's been such
00:12:30
a such a rich Mosaic of a life why oh
00:12:35
you look worried now like how long is
00:12:36
this going to
00:12:38
take yeah is that a question or a
00:12:42
statement okay so um but you did well
00:12:44
out of the house in Christ ch right like
00:12:45
you bought it for something like $10,000
00:12:47
and doubled your money yeah I think we
00:12:49
bought it in pounds days was it right
00:12:51
yeah it would have been pounds yeah yeah
00:12:53
uh like over what sort of span of time
00:12:55
did you dou double your money like over
00:12:56
a course of a year or a couple of years
00:12:58
18 months I think wow it's a long time
00:13:01
ago D before you were born yeah well I
00:13:03
was born in 73 so about that time yeah
00:13:07
so now it's we wild away but I think we
00:13:10
doubled our money in two years yeah
00:13:13
incredible yeah so we went from 10 to 20
00:13:16
yeah well that would ease the pain for
00:13:18
rayan of moving to
00:13:19
ockland uh money's not important house
00:13:24
was um and you know it's a big big step
00:13:28
yeah Christ chur people going to walk
00:13:30
not the right thing right really was it
00:13:33
uh well I think that's probably part of
00:13:35
it yeah um we have loved it it's been
00:13:39
very good to you too I so so yes so you
00:13:41
come to Oakland um this is when you get
00:13:43
in the teaching system this is sort of
00:13:44
when you're your um coaching career
00:13:47
starts um so your hostel Master you're
00:13:50
dealing with the likes of say like Grant
00:13:53
when did you first meet Grand Fox how
00:13:55
old was he like 13 yeah he was a hostile
00:13:58
boy yeah
00:13:59
uh came from Patu originally and then
00:14:03
from his parents bought a motel in Tanga
00:14:06
got to know his parents well but he was
00:14:08
I would say was
00:14:10
1975 76 doesn't matter um and some and
00:14:16
he was a hostile boy and somebody said
00:14:18
to me you want to go and see this little
00:14:20
blonde kid kicking goals down the bottom
00:14:21
field at walk in grammar school coming
00:14:23
to my office so I wanted the down to the
00:14:26
bottom field and he was foxy kicking
00:14:27
goals from the sideline as I 13y old
00:14:31
that looks pretty good yeah who else
00:14:35
Martin Crow he was a good rugby player
00:14:36
right oh there was I coached the or
00:14:39
grammar school side with a guy named
00:14:41
Derek stubs for three years and then I
00:14:43
coached by
00:14:45
myself and um there was seven All Blacks
00:14:47
during that time coach the first 11 for
00:14:50
a while and Martin Crow and Mark great
00:14:53
batch were in that team Jeff Crow wow um
00:14:57
All Blacks John Drake Nikki Allen
00:15:01
obviously Foxy the wet and brothers Gary
00:15:04
and Allen uh two hookers John buckin and
00:15:07
John Mills I think that's seven um so
00:15:12
like they were like I learned to coach
00:15:13
there like I've got so
00:15:15
much uh great memories of those young
00:15:18
guys they were just jumping out of the
00:15:20
skin wanting to play love the
00:15:22
game um coached in the afternoon after
00:15:25
school ideal environment ideal
00:15:29
um group of guys to coach still see them
00:15:32
a lot have we have social occasions we
00:15:35
get
00:15:36
together um so it was the ideal
00:15:39
environment to learn to coach yeah by
00:15:41
the way on that um scorecard of your
00:15:43
career for ockland grammar uh you were
00:15:45
the coach of 102 games do you know what
00:15:47
your success record was or how many wins
00:15:49
losses oh was fairly High I think yeah
00:15:52
93% success you know good coaches Dom
00:15:55
have good teams yeah yeah yeah yeah you
00:15:58
dropped a lot of good names there yeah
00:16:00
no no we had good teams and um and as I
00:16:03
say they were just a great bunch of
00:16:06
young men a lot of them have made a
00:16:07
massive difference to life in New
00:16:09
Zealand quite frankly been very
00:16:11
successful people not necessarily in
00:16:13
sport but in business and and in
00:16:16
community yeah fantastic and then you
00:16:19
sort of Rise through the coaching ranks
00:16:21
I suppose this is when you are you
00:16:22
familiar with the a guy called Malcolm
00:16:24
Gladwell in the 10,000 hour Theory I I
00:16:27
hear about the 10,000 yeah so this this
00:16:29
would have been nice but where you cut
00:16:30
your teeth or got your 10,000 hours
00:16:32
right through the the school system and
00:16:33
through those sort of Junior grades yeah
00:16:35
look I I was a bit of a goal Setter and
00:16:38
um know when you win a couple of
00:16:40
championships at Secondary School level
00:16:42
you think you can coach the world so
00:16:45
pretty arrogant as you say um so I was a
00:16:49
goal Setter and I used to write my goals
00:16:51
down and one of them well it was good
00:16:53
marriage and school Headmaster and Coach
00:16:56
the ORS only taught me through 30 years
00:16:59
to get
00:17:00
there so but you know as I say um what a
00:17:04
foundation to be able to learn to coach
00:17:06
in that environment well what else was
00:17:08
on that list were they the three gos or
00:17:11
oh you know successful kids kids who
00:17:13
enjoy life I can't remember the rest D
00:17:16
you've nailed them all um yeah I think
00:17:20
so like I'm like life's been fantastic
00:17:23
and our school
00:17:25
Headmaster I think we've got a great
00:17:27
marriage but You' have to ask ran that
00:17:29
well she's stuck around she has but
00:17:31
she's always a promising sign she's a
00:17:33
very resilient
00:17:34
woman um you know and and and coaching
00:17:38
the or black so you know I I was 30
00:17:42
years later when I managed to I was 58
00:17:44
when I started coaching the old black so
00:17:46
it took a we l of time but I wasn't a
00:17:49
professional rugby player or an old
00:17:51
black so in those days you just did you
00:17:54
went through the grades and and it's a
00:17:56
Pity that doesn't happen more often
00:17:59
although know um razer's done the same
00:18:02
you know he started off Coaching Club
00:18:04
footy and and gone through so that's
00:18:06
good yeah this is your your age thing is
00:18:09
part of what um attracts me to um the
00:18:11
Graham Henry story I'm I'm 51 now I got
00:18:13
a lot of mates in there you early
00:18:15
mid-50s and a lot of them have just sort
00:18:17
of it feels like they've reached the
00:18:18
Apex of their life and they're just sort
00:18:20
of like cruising along now or even sort
00:18:22
of going downhill the fact that like all
00:18:25
your greatest coaching achievements
00:18:27
happened after the age of 50
00:18:29
it's um I think it's inspirational I
00:18:31
think it's cool well the game went
00:18:32
professional in '96 mhm and I was 50 in
00:18:37
'96 uh so you know just and the and like
00:18:43
what can you say of the best years of
00:18:44
your life but I was 58 to 66 when I
00:18:48
coached the or blacks and I look back
00:18:50
and say how lucky you were you know
00:18:54
fantastic
00:18:56
um um so I got huge gratitude for that
00:19:00
opportunity suppose it seems seems quite
00:19:02
old to be coaching a big team like the
00:19:04
olds but still far too young to be
00:19:06
president of
00:19:08
America what a shamble that is [ __ ] show
00:19:11
oh so um yes so you uh in Oakland in the
00:19:14
90s you were sort of like um suppose the
00:19:16
thing you could compare it to as like
00:19:18
Razer and Canterbury right like you were
00:19:20
winning everything how many how many NPC
00:19:22
titles did you you won like three in a
00:19:23
row four in a row yeah but as I said
00:19:26
before you know we had a marvous
00:19:28
foundation so hary coached them and then
00:19:31
Morris and BG Morris with tra and BG
00:19:34
Williams and then I followed them and
00:19:37
there was a magnificent period of Walken
00:19:40
rugby uh in fact I was the coach when
00:19:42
they lost the
00:19:44
shield you you want it back though right
00:19:47
yeah but you know I we still lost it I
00:19:49
think it was 64
00:19:51
challenges and it was ridiculous um
00:19:56
length of time 8 years or something so
00:19:59
I think Hardy won it against Canterbury
00:20:02
Hardy definitely won it as coach his
00:20:05
team won it then BG and
00:20:08
Morris kept it then Ted got the team and
00:20:11
lost
00:20:12
it and there was a big very big social
00:20:15
function of the ranil shield era and the
00:20:20
guest speakers were John Hart and Morris
00:20:21
trap graah Henry stood in the corner cuz
00:20:25
he had lost the bloody thing but uh so
00:20:28
we we had very good Rugby
00:20:31
teams and um so you know a lot of credit
00:20:35
must go to those fantastic players we
00:20:38
just happen to be the coaches and oh
00:20:40
you're you're you're deflecting a lot of
00:20:42
the a lot of the credit here um rugby at
00:20:45
the time was a dynasty it was I I loved
00:20:48
it loved the involvement we won four
00:20:50
national championships in a row um I
00:20:54
think
00:20:54
from 93 to whatever mhm 93 94 955
00:21:00
96 and the team won the first two super
00:21:03
the oran coach was also the blues coach
00:21:06
and Matt mccallan was was the other
00:21:09
coach in the Blues who was outstanding
00:21:12
and we won the first two Blues there
00:21:14
first two super championships in 96 and
00:21:17
97 got beaten in 98 by the Crusaders at
00:21:20
Eden Park in the final still annoys me D
00:21:25
um and then I went to
00:21:27
Wales so those those years in the Blues
00:21:29
who who was was Jonah in those teams
00:21:32
yeah we had a Poor Side really like we
00:21:34
had Jonah and Joey Vere and Adrien Cas
00:21:38
Ronnie Clark and Lee stenus and caros
00:21:40
Spencer Junior T Michael Jones and Zam
00:21:44
Brook Mark Carter Robin Brooke you know
00:21:48
your memory's good isn't it H Brown
00:21:51
Craig Dow Shan Fitzpatrick like it was a
00:21:54
was an average team yeah yeah it wasn't
00:21:57
a team of Champions eh it was what what
00:22:00
are your what are your memories of um
00:22:02
like Joon Mania or the first time you
00:22:04
the first time you sort of came across
00:22:05
this kid oh he was very quiet I mean he
00:22:09
couldn't get boo out of him and he and
00:22:11
he struggled with the fitness side of
00:22:13
the game and we know why now uh but hell
00:22:17
he changed the game like
00:22:19
he the television people couldn't wait
00:22:22
to get professional rugby on the screens
00:22:25
and he was the Catalyst of that he was
00:22:28
he was he changed the game like 120 kilo
00:22:31
Winger who could run the 100 meters in
00:22:33
11
00:22:34
seconds and do what he did on the on the
00:22:36
Rugby field I was on the coaching of
00:22:39
course
00:22:40
D 100% it would have been nothing
00:22:42
without you and then you know I remember
00:22:44
him scoring a try in a
00:22:47
semifinal probably in
00:22:50
97 where he got the ball from the end of
00:22:52
the line out half back to
00:22:54
him half back to Winger and he scored
00:22:57
under the under the post from the 22
00:23:00
four guys hanging on to him you know
00:23:02
that's all in the coaching
00:23:04
[Music]
00:23:05
surely at at that time um I was a a
00:23:08
young broadcaster in paliston north and
00:23:10
rugby just went professional so I had a
00:23:12
couple of um couple of mates who had a
00:23:14
lot of spare time on their hands like
00:23:16
Christian Kalen uh Christen Davis Mark
00:23:19
ramby so a few of us would play golf all
00:23:20
day um Christian went on to be a very
00:23:22
good old black as as you'd be well aware
00:23:24
of he he told me stories of those early
00:23:26
days of professional rugby about um
00:23:29
just the sort of money that was going
00:23:31
around and that'd be on the team bus
00:23:32
that'd stop somewhere and Jonah would
00:23:34
buy like a a stereo for the bus and just
00:23:38
the money what was your experience when
00:23:40
rugby first went professional of um you
00:23:42
know these these young kids that had no
00:23:43
sort of financial literacy coming into
00:23:45
big sums of money being being the wise
00:23:48
old soul of the team well um no like I I
00:23:53
think they took a while to to shake down
00:23:56
into into professional athletes and
00:23:58
maybe it's gone too far now you know
00:24:01
like they still love the game like those
00:24:04
guys are brought up working doing normal
00:24:07
jobs Carpenters or electricians or
00:24:10
lawyers or whatever School
00:24:13
teachers um so it took them a while to
00:24:16
get their feet under the table in the
00:24:18
professional sense I remember
00:24:21
Jonah we played a preseason game super
00:24:25
preseason game in Greymouth
00:24:28
uh before he went to the Highlanders the
00:24:30
first game of the
00:24:32
championship and there was probably
00:24:33
6,000 people there and after the game
00:24:36
there would have been 5,000 people
00:24:38
around Jonah like he was just he just he
00:24:43
was enormous in the game but he just
00:24:45
attracted
00:24:46
people
00:24:48
um I look I I I can't remember how they
00:24:52
handle the the money side of things but
00:24:55
they were a
00:24:56
pleasure um I've about him buying cars
00:24:59
for young players later on in his career
00:25:02
I I think that's probably an
00:25:03
exaggeration but I could be wrong
00:25:06
amazing and then so was around this time
00:25:08
so um you're you're part of this um
00:25:11
massive massive success in Oakland um
00:25:13
all of you nothing to do with the
00:25:15
players and then um says is this about
00:25:18
the time when the whales thing comes
00:25:19
along so you get overlooked for an All
00:25:20
Black's job what happens there you you
00:25:23
sort of sned by the old black I had
00:25:25
applied for the old Black's job
00:25:28
uh hell it's a long time ago um I think
00:25:31
when hary got the job in
00:25:34
95 and thank God I missed it CU I wasn't
00:25:37
ready but you think you are why with
00:25:40
hindsight why do why do you look back
00:25:42
now and say you weren't ready well I
00:25:44
hadn't you know I'd been a school
00:25:46
teacher I hadn't been involved in the
00:25:48
game so like a guy like Wayne Smith and
00:25:50
Steve Hansen they were in rugby acmy and
00:25:53
so on so it was part when the game was
00:25:55
amate so they grew up in the game if you
00:25:58
like Smithy was CEO of hawks Bay rugby I
00:26:02
was a school teacher and a school
00:26:03
principal so I wasn't involved in the
00:26:05
game apart from it was my passion my
00:26:09
hobby uh coaching the
00:26:11
game and so you know
00:26:14
in um 95 I was still a school
00:26:19
principal although to to be fair wasn't
00:26:21
John Hart it was like a side hustle for
00:26:23
him as well right he had his job at yeah
00:26:25
yeah yeah but he had you know he had
00:26:26
coached Orland in the middle 80s okay
00:26:29
more P's duws more you mean yeah yeah he
00:26:32
he yeah and so I wasn't ready so I was
00:26:36
you know I thought I might get the
00:26:38
job uh and um that was something you
00:26:43
missed which just thank God you'd missed
00:26:45
that um I can't remember the question
00:26:48
Dom what was the question oh so yeah it
00:26:49
was around this time that you you left
00:26:51
and went to Wales so oh yeah I got an
00:26:53
invitation to co the
00:26:55
Welsh uh so I got a ring
00:26:58
are you interested which you know when
00:27:01
you got a a rugby nation which is as mad
00:27:04
as the Welsh it's their number you know
00:27:07
it's their national sport they're
00:27:09
passionate about it uh there's a huge
00:27:11
relationship between the Welsh and the
00:27:13
New Zealand about rugby lot of respect
00:27:17
um so I was I was pretty chuff to get an
00:27:20
invitation to go to Wales absolutely so
00:27:23
I was coaching the blues and the Orland
00:27:25
at the
00:27:26
time and I thought oh I better go down
00:27:28
and have a chat to New Zealand Rugby
00:27:31
about this cuz I really wanted to coach
00:27:33
the All Blacks as being a key will you
00:27:36
that's what you want to do so I went
00:27:38
down and saw David Mofford in Wellington
00:27:40
he was the CEO of New Zealand
00:27:43
Rugby uh he just abused me did he
00:27:47
actually he just I can't repeat what he
00:27:49
said it's a podcast you can if you want
00:27:52
no I can't it was really what was it
00:27:54
really is this true like I couldn't
00:27:57
believe what he said to me what just
00:28:00
really dismissive or like just actually
00:28:02
down right Road uh
00:28:05
both he just swore at me and said if you
00:28:08
go to go to uh Wales you'll never coach
00:28:12
in this country again with a few
00:28:15
expletives um and I was shocked which
00:28:19
just gave me the more make me more
00:28:21
determined to go and then I then I did
00:28:24
some homework you know with a few board
00:28:27
members and they were lukewarm so I
00:28:30
thought ah M I'll
00:28:33
go and um I did discuss it we with Ren
00:28:37
of
00:28:38
course um lesson learned from
00:28:42
Christ and no it was I was I was amazed
00:28:47
and they put this Clause together called
00:28:48
the Henry Clause if he went overseason
00:28:51
coached International R you wouldn't
00:28:53
coach the old blacks you wouldn't coach
00:28:54
in this country again in fact is that
00:28:56
what it was called the Henry
00:28:59
yeah and so I thought I'd Burt the
00:29:01
bridges quite
00:29:03
frankly um and just to finish that story
00:29:08
when I came
00:29:09
back uh the 2003 Rugby World Cup was
00:29:13
eminent so I came back in
00:29:17
2002 and was meant to be in New Zealand
00:29:19
and Australia 2003 Rugby World Cup but
00:29:23
because they couldn't get clean grounds
00:29:25
no advertising in New Zealand the
00:29:27
International Rugby Bo the IRB at that
00:29:29
time now in World rugby said n we can't
00:29:32
have the World Cup in New Zealand can't
00:29:34
get clean grounds we're only be in
00:29:36
Australia so the board and the CEO got
00:29:41
got moved
00:29:43
on all of them all of them are the same
00:29:45
and the Henry cause was lost yeah and uh
00:29:51
history's history you must have do you
00:29:52
send them all condolence cards at the
00:29:55
time was it was a it was It was a it was
00:29:58
disappointing actually cuz you'd you'd
00:30:00
given a lot of a lot of time to and not
00:30:05
because you didn't enjoy it but I'd
00:30:07
coached in walk and rugby for I coached
00:30:10
the under 20s for four years the B team
00:30:12
for a year and probably six or seven
00:30:15
years with the a team so probably 12
00:30:18
years of
00:30:19
service um it's a real slap in the face
00:30:22
it's not like I was hell of an enjoyable
00:30:25
for me but the reaction for me going to
00:30:28
Wales was really negative from New
00:30:30
Zealand and Orland
00:30:33
rugby
00:30:35
wow yeah yeah was it at the time I I
00:30:38
remember um yeah you did a press
00:30:40
conference and then left the country
00:30:41
straight away right pretty much you oh
00:30:43
your car got to you had did a press
00:30:44
conference and your car got toed to get
00:30:46
a get a taxi to the
00:30:49
airport was it David mofet that towed
00:30:51
your car oh possibly I I was talking to
00:30:55
deaker actually Mar deaker yeah I said
00:30:58
I'm going to Wales and I'm going
00:31:00
tonight uh it just happened he was a
00:31:03
mate at the
00:31:05
time and um it was just a way of sort of
00:31:10
rolling off and I did have a car
00:31:12
obviously I parked it in the right wrong
00:31:14
place so they had to and had to find it
00:31:17
but I flew to Wales that
00:31:19
night um that's right with with um Grant
00:31:22
Dalton he happened to be in the lounge
00:31:24
and you guys ended up um sitting next to
00:31:26
each other on the plane
00:31:29
I don't know if he sat next to other in
00:31:30
F but we certainly had a
00:31:32
conversation um yeah yeah it was like it
00:31:38
was really exciting to have a new
00:31:41
challenge but disappointing that after a
00:31:45
lot of time in New Zealand Rugby that
00:31:48
the administrators just cut me off and
00:31:53
since there was that thing called the
00:31:54
Henry claws like you must have when you
00:31:56
hopped on that plane it must have been
00:31:58
um quite significant like you must have
00:32:00
really thought that was it you know what
00:32:02
I mean it's like your you the stream
00:32:04
that you had this dream that you had in
00:32:06
your drawer along with you know keeping
00:32:08
your marriage good and raising happy
00:32:10
healthy kids you could strike that off
00:32:12
that dream was over yeah take that a we
00:32:15
bit further down I the I talked to the
00:32:18
CEO of Oran rugby because I had a
00:32:20
contract with them I didn't have a
00:32:22
contract with New Zealand even though I
00:32:25
was coaching Super Rugby with the blues
00:32:26
I didn't agree with the contract so I
00:32:28
didn't sign
00:32:30
it but I had a contract with Oakland
00:32:32
rugby which went on for another I think
00:32:35
another 18 months and I talked to the
00:32:37
CEO and he said oh you've got a hell of
00:32:40
a lot of service talking you'll be fine
00:32:42
Ted don't worry about
00:32:44
it and just before I left I got a ring
00:32:47
from the CEO he said look we're in a
00:32:49
board
00:32:50
meeting uh would you can you come along
00:32:53
to the board meeting I said oh yeah I
00:32:56
thought this doesn't sound too good so I
00:32:58
arve at the board meeting they said look
00:33:00
we're happy for you to go to Wales but
00:33:02
you'll have to pay you'll have to buy
00:33:03
out of your contract I said how much is
00:33:06
that they said
00:33:07
300K [ __ ] and so um I thought that was
00:33:12
pretty bad at the time and so I some of
00:33:16
my mates and rugby got together and put
00:33:18
some pressure on it was reduced to 150
00:33:21
if I known they were going to do that
00:33:23
when I signed the contract with Wales
00:33:25
they would have paid it m but I said no
00:33:27
everything's okay I'm sure or R would be
00:33:30
fine but I was mistaken it was very
00:33:33
disappointing at the time so I paid that
00:33:35
150 over 3 years 50,000 a year for three
00:33:39
years it's a lot of money you were
00:33:40
earning good money though right like
00:33:42
£250 a year in Wales oh we B more than
00:33:45
that though was it more than that and
00:33:46
that the exchange rate was terrible so
00:33:47
that's like three times that in New
00:33:49
Zealand yeah no it was it was a good
00:33:51
contract yeah and um so you weren't too
00:33:54
worried about the ockland money was just
00:33:55
the principle but I really wanted to
00:33:58
take another step in my coaching so I'd
00:34:00
coached provincial rugby and Super Rugby
00:34:04
for eight years and I wanted to coach
00:34:07
International Rugby I was I was 50 52 53
00:34:13
so I was maturing I was getting
00:34:16
on and it was a magnificent experience I
00:34:19
I look back and think hell and ran went
00:34:24
over and she coached a Welsh uh coached
00:34:27
a clubside in
00:34:29
Cardiff and uh she's she's into Neto
00:34:31
she's a very good netball coach coach
00:34:34
Oakland uh and she was coaching this
00:34:37
club team and they asked her to coach
00:34:38
the Welsh team so she was coaching Welsh
00:34:41
Neto and I was coaching Welsh rugby so
00:34:43
we're how a couple we were pretty busy
00:34:46
at the time loved that you know we were
00:34:48
very very very involved in the in Welsh
00:34:53
community and and and the environment
00:34:55
and all the people uh just love that
00:34:59
experience you go over and you know
00:35:01
nobody so it's a hell of a challenge and
00:35:04
the Welsh had had some challenges with
00:35:07
their results over the previous couple
00:35:10
of years so there was a big Challenge on
00:35:12
yeah cuz before you went over there they
00:35:14
played South Africa and lost by like 80
00:35:15
points or something right 963
00:35:19
963 yes and then you must and you signed
00:35:22
by then you must have been thinking what
00:35:24
am I walking
00:35:26
into no
00:35:28
63 funny
00:35:30
enough when all this was happening and
00:35:33
David mord said if you go to Wales
00:35:35
you'll never coaching this country again
00:35:38
I arranged to meet the CEO of Welsh
00:35:40
rugby and the chairman in
00:35:43
Sydney and it was the weekend of the 963
00:35:46
or whatever it was so was probably a
00:35:49
good time to be talking to
00:35:51
them and I signed the contract in Sydney
00:35:55
so I didn't go to Wales cuz I didn't
00:35:57
didn't know if I was going to sign it
00:35:58
till I saw all the
00:36:00
detail and I had a lawyer who I sent the
00:36:05
contract to emailed it do we have emails
00:36:09
in
00:36:10
96 that it's probably like a telegram
00:36:13
anyway 98 it was must have had emails
00:36:17
anyway I finished up signing the
00:36:19
contract in in
00:36:21
Sydney um yeah but but a team a team
00:36:25
that's just lost by 93 points what makes
00:36:27
it what makes you think you can add
00:36:28
value and turn them around where do you
00:36:31
begin um is it because they're in such a
00:36:33
such a crap place you think the you know
00:36:35
the the only way is
00:36:36
up yeah you didn't think of that you
00:36:39
know they've got a history which was
00:36:41
fantastic not always successful but I
00:36:44
remember watching the 1970 Lions play
00:36:47
you know and Carwin James's team and it
00:36:50
was the the nucle of that team was Welsh
00:36:53
and a lot of those Welsh guys like like
00:36:56
Barry John and GTH Edward and those and
00:36:59
JB Williams and all those guys I met MH
00:37:03
when I was in Wales uh fantastic men and
00:37:06
I they they have had a history of some
00:37:08
success M so there must been this
00:37:11
something in the in the blood there and
00:37:13
then the country that so just a it was
00:37:16
just a bad a bad game bad game and and
00:37:18
your um your results were immediate like
00:37:20
you 11 wins in a row they weren't quite
00:37:24
immediate um but from an outsider's
00:37:26
perspective it seems like like you no
00:37:28
there was two or three tests we went
00:37:29
through before we started to win right
00:37:32
yeah we had a we yeah we had a good run
00:37:34
we had a bit of luck we had a good
00:37:37
run um and you know the Millennium
00:37:42
Stadium was being built and we played
00:37:44
South Africa to open the Millennium
00:37:46
Stadium and Wales had never beaten South
00:37:48
Africa we're talking
00:37:50
1998 are we 298 have I got that right
00:37:55
yeah I think so opening of the
00:37:57
millennium might have been 99
00:37:59
actually and um we beat the South
00:38:02
Africans out the Millennium Stadium was
00:38:04
only half full for security reasons so
00:38:07
they half full three quarters full full
00:38:10
for the opening of the stadium for for
00:38:13
health and safety
00:38:14
reasons and um I think we won 26 or
00:38:20
2719 brilliant brilliant you know like
00:38:23
it's dreams are made of those things
00:38:26
just fantastic and we we had some some
00:38:30
good wins we beat France and Paris for
00:38:33
the first time since
00:38:35
1976 uh we beat England and Wembley in a
00:38:38
special game
00:38:41
3332 3231 something like
00:38:45
that um so by the way your recall is
00:38:49
incredible um so yeah don't get me they
00:38:54
ask some difficult questions but and
00:38:56
don't defect afterwards you know was
00:38:58
there was a brilliant group of guys we
00:39:01
connected well
00:39:03
um and I think being out a non- Welsh
00:39:07
people person that helped because it's
00:39:09
very tribal Wales is very tribal East
00:39:13
vers West uh Northwest South M so often
00:39:18
because it's Tribal and you get a Welsh
00:39:20
person selecting they pick their own
00:39:23
rather than the best right so you were
00:39:25
neutral sometimes
00:39:28
and I was neutral and managed to pick
00:39:30
the best team and I've just been to been
00:39:33
to Europe been to Wales been a c for
00:39:36
anniversary of that England game against
00:39:40
Wales W England at Wembley in
00:39:44
1999 uh 18th of March we had a
00:39:48
anniversary of that
00:39:49
game um 25 years incredible and I've
00:39:54
just been to the anniversary in Cardiff
00:39:58
brilliant brilliant guys great fun are
00:40:00
you are you still like a like a God over
00:40:03
there that's a stupid question to ask me
00:40:06
John am I still like God over there no I
00:40:09
just love the people they're they're
00:40:11
very
00:40:12
supportive uh they celebrate successes
00:40:15
they don't have a
00:40:16
lot um and you know there's a lot of
00:40:19
unemployment in Wales particularly in
00:40:22
the valleys and rugby to them is very
00:40:24
important and successes they celebrate
00:40:27
and they've got great
00:40:30
memories of of fantastic wins you know
00:40:34
but yes so this was around the time that
00:40:35
you got the nickname um the great
00:40:37
Redeemer um how was that at the time
00:40:40
ridiculous what you don't have like a I
00:40:43
see if I was you I'd have like a
00:40:44
probably a framed newspaper on my wall
00:40:46
at home with um that headline did did it
00:40:49
sit comfortably with you it must have
00:40:51
felt like the ultimate [ __ ] you to David
00:40:52
Mofford and the nzru back home yeah yeah
00:40:56
I guess it was it just was the part ofy
00:40:58
that just makes you nervous cuz you know
00:40:59
that you know what goes up must come
00:41:01
come down no you don't think of that no
00:41:04
no you just you're just trying to do
00:41:06
your best you know and um and I I I
00:41:10
coached like I'd always coached and how
00:41:12
I've been coach you coach from the front
00:41:15
you drive it and then then the finish it
00:41:18
takes its toll you know after
00:41:20
those after that series of successes and
00:41:24
let's be frank we got to the 99 rby
00:41:27
World Cup and we get to the quarterfinal
00:41:30
got beaten by the
00:41:32
Australians in the quarterfinal they
00:41:34
went on to win the Rugby World Cup they
00:41:36
were good in those days best in the
00:41:38
world so they won the 990 World Cup but
00:41:41
they beat us in the quarter I can't
00:41:44
remember what the school was 79 or
00:41:47
something like that um and then I got
00:41:51
asked to coach the British and Irish
00:41:53
Lions and the British and Irish Lions is
00:41:55
a huge huge part of the game you know
00:41:58
yeah England Ireland Scotland and Wales
00:42:00
oh yeah so it's it's a legendary rugby
00:42:03
team and it makes rugby go round it's a
00:42:07
big fillet for the South Africa
00:42:10
Australia New Zealand when they tour
00:42:12
because it fills the
00:42:13
cfers but you know Lions teams have been
00:42:17
fantastic over the years and be the
00:42:19
first non Brit non-irish person to be
00:42:23
asked to coach the British and Irish
00:42:25
Lions is
00:42:27
is Big yeah even though I soate
00:42:31
myself um so it's just an opportunity
00:42:33
you just can't it's too good to turn
00:42:35
down and also you know you wanted to
00:42:36
stick it up New Zealand Rugby and say
00:42:38
well you can you're not you're not a
00:42:39
bloody hasb or you can do the
00:42:42
job um but it took its
00:42:46
toll and I look I when I got when I was
00:42:49
asked to do the job obviously I had to
00:42:51
discuss it with the world's rug Union
00:42:54
and um they said look don't do this Ted
00:42:59
too much too much on your plate and I
00:43:02
thought I was
00:43:04
bulletproof you were the great great
00:43:05
Redeemer yeah I thought it was
00:43:07
bulletproof but it took its toll and I
00:43:09
hit the wall and got depression yeah
00:43:11
actually I've got um I've got a a photo
00:43:13
to show you know there's that saying of
00:43:14
a picture paints a thousand words yeah
00:43:17
what um what do you feel when you see
00:43:20
this oh yeah yeah yeah yeah well that
00:43:23
was know the lies to I've seen the I've
00:43:25
seen the photo thanks Tom
00:43:28
don't even want to hold it where we want
00:43:30
no no no no no well you know we had all
00:43:34
the players on the lines to had had um
00:43:37
contracts with media M with a
00:43:40
newspaper and um those two Dawson and
00:43:44
Healey uh weren't great team people at
00:43:49
the
00:43:49
time and
00:43:52
so Dawson had written some negative
00:43:54
stuff before the first test
00:43:57
about the Lions and my coaching and
00:44:01
which is you know the way it was but it
00:44:04
came out in all the it came out in the
00:44:06
newspapers before the first test in
00:44:08
Brisbane a game that we happened to win
00:44:11
and win very comfortably and play
00:44:14
superbly uh but you know it's just the
00:44:16
way it was in those days you know um I'm
00:44:20
sure players don't have media contracts
00:44:22
today but that's the way it was then and
00:44:25
uh so it pretty lonely tour like I'm not
00:44:29
blaming anybody no um I was coaching
00:44:32
with three or four English guys who were
00:44:35
bloody good and I enjoyed them and I
00:44:38
think we did a good job it was a hell of
00:44:41
a series cuz the Australians were world
00:44:43
champions from 99 and this is
00:44:45
2011 finished up getting beaten 21 seven
00:44:48
tries each I'm popping up my own tires
00:44:50
here do um but when I got back to Wales
00:44:54
I was just completely buggered M and um
00:44:59
and I knew I had to get
00:45:01
out um otherwise I was just going to
00:45:05
die if you know what I mean and I I I
00:45:09
had some good mats David Pickering and
00:45:10
his wife Justine he was the manager of
00:45:13
the team ex or or ex Welsh captain and
00:45:17
ran and I sat around the table and
00:45:19
discusted and decided that I would
00:45:22
resign I had still had 18 months of the
00:45:24
contract to go yeah do you do you think
00:45:26
it was just the the Lions thing that
00:45:27
took it out of you and doing the Lions
00:45:29
thing coaching Wales and just the the
00:45:31
the the exhaustion of you know maybe
00:45:33
having that split or division within the
00:45:35
team just everything just a cumulative
00:45:37
effect yeah I think so yeah I thought I
00:45:39
was bulletproof yes you do yeah yeah and
00:45:42
I wasn't and I was told uh don't do it
00:45:46
and ever since then the Lions coach has
00:45:48
had a Year's leave of absence from their
00:45:50
normal job so Warren Gatlin for example
00:45:53
he coached the Lions a couple of times
00:45:54
he was a Welsh coach he would have a
00:45:56
years Le absence from Wales and just do
00:45:58
the lines so they did learn a bit from
00:46:01
that um which is nice yeah that you were
00:46:04
the guinea pig but you know it's just
00:46:07
accumulation that I just CU I used to
00:46:10
drive it from the front was which was
00:46:13
wrong I should have involved the other
00:46:15
people a lot more particularly the
00:46:17
players and that was the big learning so
00:46:19
from that adversity I look back on and
00:46:22
think hell if that hadn't
00:46:24
happened um we wouldn't have done the
00:46:26
same things with the All Blacks you know
00:46:28
it changed the way I coached it changed
00:46:30
the way I thought about the players and
00:46:33
the team and the rest of the management
00:46:35
so it was a massive learning
00:46:38
experience um so difficult at the time
00:46:41
yeah but no I look back and think yeah
00:46:46
good time difficult but good learning
00:46:50
yeah these things are difficult but when
00:46:51
you yeah when you get through them and
00:46:52
have some um you Clarity at the other
00:46:54
end or see the light at the end of the
00:46:56
tunnel however you frame at it works out
00:46:58
for the best but yeah what what did yeah
00:47:00
what did the depression look like for
00:47:02
you CU it's quite a you know CU I um I
00:47:05
went through some mental health stuff
00:47:06
myself maybe about five or six years ago
00:47:08
in my mid-40s and it's quite alarming
00:47:09
when you go through life without any of
00:47:10
this sort of stuff and then suddenly it
00:47:12
happens oh I just didn't want to connect
00:47:15
with people head away lie on my bed
00:47:17
reading books yeah self-isolate
00:47:20
isolation um and I just couldn't get
00:47:23
myself up to do the like I you need to
00:47:26
be jumped on your toes on edge to do it
00:47:30
right well I did right I could tell you
00:47:34
some stories D but I I won't won't bore
00:47:37
the public but um no I I knew that I had
00:47:42
like health is everything and I knew I
00:47:44
had to get out of there I had 80 months
00:47:46
of my contract I was been paid a th000
00:47:48
New Zealand a million New Zealand
00:47:50
dollars a
00:47:51
year um so it wasn't giving away
00:47:54
something that was not significant who
00:47:56
did but I had to get out did you did you
00:47:59
um yeah you mentioned um a guy before
00:48:02
that you could talk to did you did you
00:48:03
see any therapist or anything no but you
00:48:05
did you have like a a team mental skills
00:48:08
coach or anything in Wales that you
00:48:09
could have spoken to or no no so just a
00:48:12
couple of friends that you sort of did
00:48:13
you did you mainly sort of bottle it
00:48:15
up no I or work it out internally
00:48:19
yourself I just
00:48:21
knew I've been driving myself for a long
00:48:24
time yeah with Orland and the blue and
00:48:27
the Welsh and the Lions I just knew that
00:48:31
I had to get there from space m um and I
00:48:35
had no space yeah and the only way I
00:48:37
could get space was not do the job
00:48:39
anymore I still bloody passionate about
00:48:42
rugby coaching so I just made a
00:48:46
decision made a decision to resign and
00:48:49
the Welsh Rugby Union was fantastic a
00:48:52
very supportive did did did did people
00:48:54
know something was up or do you think
00:48:55
you wore quite a good mask I've had I've
00:48:57
had um your old mate um sjn Kuan on the
00:48:59
podcast and he talked about like wearing
00:49:01
a mask and how he wore a bit mask I
00:49:04
don't I don't think I even thought about
00:49:06
that yeah um you just knowing your
00:49:10
gut that it's time to move so I coached
00:49:15
37 tests for Wales and three for the
00:49:17
Lions 40
00:49:18
tests um
00:49:21
and you know I just knew that I needed
00:49:24
some space mhm to get myself self
00:49:27
right and you know i' burnt the bridges
00:49:30
so was a hell of a big decision oh the
00:49:33
burnt the bridges as in New Zealand yeah
00:49:35
well to be fair well I feel like they
00:49:37
sort of they sort of burnt the bridges
00:49:39
is that right like David Mo and the New
00:49:40
Zealand Rugby Union they they left you
00:49:42
painted in a corner with no option no
00:49:44
well they they told me if I'd ever coach
00:49:47
I coached overseas International never
00:49:49
coach in this country right country
00:49:51
again so I I'd made the decision to go
00:49:54
to Wales and I knew that was the
00:49:56
decision
00:49:57
so it was a hell of a big
00:49:59
decision but the team was much more
00:50:02
important than me and you know I
00:50:04
knew that I needed to get some space uh
00:50:08
rayan stayed CU she was coaching the W
00:50:11
netball team to a World Cup in Jamaica
00:50:13
so she stayed I came home I went back to
00:50:16
Christ Church we had a house in ockland
00:50:19
no oh actually you you're skipping out
00:50:21
one bit I think um she was coaching in
00:50:24
um Singapore and you went to visit her
00:50:26
and she she sent you off to the year old
00:50:29
groomsman who happened to live in
00:50:30
Singapore cuz she was like I'm
00:50:33
busy overlooked that but God you know
00:50:36
lot you've done your homework now when I
00:50:39
was going through this depression yeah
00:50:42
ran was in
00:50:44
Singapore uh with the Welsh Neto team in
00:50:47
a preor cup
00:50:49
tournament and I was sitting at home by
00:50:52
myself I thought oh Buck of this so I
00:50:55
jumped on a plane from Heath went to
00:50:57
Singapore walked into the hotel said
00:50:59
good day how you
00:51:00
going I said well and my one of our
00:51:04
mates lived in Singapore it was a
00:51:06
groomsman at our wedding so I spent a
00:51:08
bit of time with him and then we went to
00:51:10
puket yeah
00:51:12
Thailand and went to the beach for a
00:51:14
week got my toes in the sand and relaxed
00:51:19
and went back from there to Wales and
00:51:22
still still wasn't right were you okay
00:51:26
PUK
00:51:27
I when I had John har on the podcast he
00:51:28
said the same sort of thing like after
00:51:31
he fell into depression after the 99
00:51:32
World Cup and his wife took him to dinal
00:51:35
for a while um but there's that saying
00:51:37
um wherever you go there you are so
00:51:40
whatever's going you can be on the
00:51:42
nicest beach in the world but yeah yeah
00:51:44
um no so it didn't work yeah but she was
00:51:47
fantastic as always came back to Wales
00:51:51
went through the process of getting out
00:51:54
um and as I said the wsh rug Union was
00:51:58
fantastic and she stayed and I went back
00:52:00
to Christ
00:52:01
Church uh where my parents were and I
00:52:03
took them to
00:52:05
acara and I ran the forest in akaroa M
00:52:08
every day and it's amazing the
00:52:11
connection between the physical and the
00:52:12
mental and I started to come right
00:52:15
started to started to relax and feel
00:52:18
good and then I got a phone call from
00:52:21
Japan from was University would you come
00:52:24
and Coach us so it gave me an
00:52:27
opportunity to get back on the bike and
00:52:28
the Japanese only asked you when they're
00:52:30
good so I knew they would be a good
00:52:33
side cuz they they wouldn't you know
00:52:35
they couldn't do that unless they had a
00:52:37
great side and I I coached them with
00:52:39
David Young who happened to be the
00:52:41
captain of the Welsh team when I was
00:52:42
coaching prop forward and a very funny
00:52:45
man a good man so we had or a long time
00:52:48
probably a couple of months in in Japan
00:52:50
M and they won the Japanese University
00:52:54
Title as they were always going to do
00:52:57
and I trained every morning with David
00:53:00
coached every afternoon so back on the
00:53:03
bike and started to feel veryy good
00:53:06
again just start to get your confidence
00:53:08
back and get a bit of momentum yeah yeah
00:53:12
what do you think um we'll you'll close
00:53:14
the chapter on this in a second but um
00:53:17
biggest learnings about yourself in this
00:53:18
time and any Silver Linings from
00:53:21
depression oh I think the big thing I
00:53:24
learned it wasn't about me you know the
00:53:26
coach it it was about them and I had to
00:53:29
involve um more of the management and
00:53:32
the senior players and the driving of
00:53:34
the team so I think that was the biggest
00:53:36
learning curve I couldn't drive it by
00:53:39
myself in fact I was sitting with um um
00:53:43
Clive Woodward after an England game and
00:53:47
he and we're on the same table black TI
00:53:49
dinner after six nations go at
00:53:52
twickingham and he's got eight guys
00:53:56
around him and I've got three and he
00:53:58
said Ted you don't think you three can
00:54:01
beat us eight do
00:54:04
you and know so and you look at what
00:54:08
they doing to know there's there's a
00:54:09
large number of specialist
00:54:11
coaches anyway the biggest learning I
00:54:14
had was one it was about them not about
00:54:18
me you know and the more I could involve
00:54:21
them and give them ownership and
00:54:23
responsibility the better I would be and
00:54:25
the better they would be and the second
00:54:27
thing I learned is that I had to look
00:54:29
after myself and so I developed a
00:54:33
personal game plan of of
00:54:34
self-preservation if you like or self um
00:54:39
feeling good mentally so mental health
00:54:42
physical health so I did a lot of
00:54:44
exercise and as I said to you before D
00:54:46
there a huge connection between the
00:54:48
mental and the physical uh having good
00:54:51
mentors so I started to talk to a lot of
00:54:54
people few people John Graham was a good
00:54:58
mate you know we'd gone through a lot
00:55:00
together I he' been very helpful over
00:55:02
the
00:55:03
years um and he he he was hell of a good
00:55:07
Mentor spent time talking to him jock
00:55:10
Hobs who was the chair of new rugby
00:55:13
Chris do who probably heard of he was a
00:55:15
good mate of mine at school we talked
00:55:17
together at or grammar school he was an
00:55:19
opera
00:55:20
singer um he came back from Asia from
00:55:24
Austria we we used to have long lunches
00:55:27
M and talk challenge he was fantastic so
00:55:31
a lot of good
00:55:32
mentors um and just getting away you
00:55:35
know getting your I spent a lot of time
00:55:38
up in Russell up over at way hickey just
00:55:42
chilling
00:55:43
fishing relaxing connecting with nature
00:55:46
I'm I'm so pleased that you found um I'm
00:55:48
I'm a massive fan of running I'm so
00:55:50
pleased that you found um you know your
00:55:52
mental well-being again in the um in the
00:55:54
trails of akaroa that's cool
00:55:57
yeah and it was and it was um like my
00:56:00
parents in those days were in their
00:56:02
80s yeah in their 80s and and so they
00:56:05
were getting older we' been and I hadn't
00:56:08
seen them for a while so just spending
00:56:10
some time with them but you know that as
00:56:13
I said I can't emphasize enough exercise
00:56:16
and mental mental health uh massive
00:56:20
correlation yeah and and talking about
00:56:22
things and showing vulnerability it's
00:56:24
not something um you or I and our ation
00:56:26
growing up whereever sort of no no and
00:56:28
and and been old like John rayan John
00:56:32
Graham jock hops those guys they know
00:56:37
fantastic just to be old to and and then
00:56:40
when I got involved in the OR sko with
00:56:43
Anoka who was a mental skills coach we
00:56:45
used to meet every night and discuss the
00:56:47
day and how it went and how we can
00:56:50
improve tomorrow
00:56:51
and um yeah I just just sharing sharing
00:56:56
and sharing ideas sharing your thoughts
00:56:59
sharing your
00:57:01
vulnerability uh using helping making
00:57:04
sure those guys were right in center
00:57:08
making sure they were very much part of
00:57:10
the
00:57:11
future you know Wayne Smith Steve Hansen
00:57:14
Gilbert Anoka Mike craon and the All
00:57:17
Blacks yeah well thanks foring up about
00:57:20
that stuff yes so we're at the part now
00:57:21
where you become all black coach so the
00:57:23
dream that you had for your entire life
00:57:26
um yeah you even outlived the Henry
00:57:30
Clause so you get the job in 2003 after
00:57:34
the World Cup or 2004 after the World
00:57:37
Cup who do you who do you replace is it
00:57:39
John Mitchell no yes it's John Mitchell
00:57:41
but it was I went to the Rugby World Cup
00:57:43
and where I meant to be coaching the
00:57:44
Welsh Steve Hansen took over so I gave
00:57:48
him the poison
00:57:50
chalice well so to speak um he took over
00:57:54
the Welsh but I was there as as a tour
00:57:57
leader of a group of supporters Rowan
00:58:00
and
00:58:01
I and we watched the or blacks play and
00:58:05
obviously um they got beaten in a
00:58:08
semifinal in
00:58:10
Sydney and you know but what really
00:58:14
happened was the the 203 Rugby World Cup
00:58:17
was meant to be in Australia and New
00:58:18
Zealand if I mentioned this already yeah
00:58:21
yeah yeah about the um the signage in
00:58:22
the stadium so it was in Australia so
00:58:24
the whole in you board got the X yeah
00:58:27
yeah and and the CEO and Henry cross was
00:58:30
lost so I that was great and then you
00:58:33
know I got involved in Oran rugby
00:58:36
again um I went from a million dollar to
00:58:39
$20,000 we would of a drop it's like
00:58:43
going from being a a breakfast radio
00:58:44
broadcaster to a podcaster I don't know
00:58:47
anything about that but that's okay and
00:58:49
so I and the Oakland and the blues teams
00:58:52
had a good time over that period of time
00:58:54
when I came back and won three
00:58:56
championships in a row and I applied for
00:58:58
the old blacks and and John Mitchell who
00:59:01
was a bloody good coach and I were the
00:59:03
only two who applied for the job and I
00:59:06
managed to get the job well yeah well at
00:59:09
that stage um if you lost a World Cup
00:59:11
you were done weren't
00:59:13
you yeah usually at that stage yeah you
00:59:16
only get one shot at it until until you
00:59:19
came see so so you become coach uh
00:59:23
2004 um you had a good when did Rich and
00:59:26
Dan and those guys come along when did
00:59:28
you first come across those guys as
00:59:30
coach was it around this time yeah well
00:59:32
Richie first played I think in 2011 oh
00:59:35
yeah so you inherited Richie yeah and he
00:59:37
was a kid then I think he probably 20 or
00:59:39
19 or
00:59:41
20 um so he had played quite a bit of
00:59:44
all black rugby Dan started I he started
00:59:48
the year before
00:59:50
me um but he was a inside Center second
00:59:54
58 see is mainly a second 5'8 in those
00:59:58
days um yeah but it was good to have
01:00:01
those men along they were quite good
01:00:04
they weren't bad were they to be fear
01:00:06
helped Along by a good coach they were
01:00:08
pretty
01:00:09
helpful yeah but I think the big thing
01:00:11
is that
01:00:12
we uh we had a like Minds you know I was
01:00:15
lucky enough to to get Wayne Smith and
01:00:18
Steve Hansen to help and Mike cron who
01:00:21
was the Ford
01:00:22
coach uh grahe low who was the
01:00:25
conditioning coach
01:00:27
um Gilbert sports
01:00:31
psychologist um so we had a good nucleus
01:00:34
and we were likeminded about team-driven
01:00:37
culture rather than than coach driven
01:00:40
culture so yeah where did that sort of
01:00:43
thinking come from you know the the
01:00:45
whole leadership group and everything
01:00:46
else well that came from from from me
01:00:49
yeah it it didn't necessarily come from
01:00:52
me cuz we're likeminded but it came from
01:00:55
the welshan line experience knowing that
01:00:57
it was not about me it was about
01:01:00
them still a weit about me but a lot
01:01:03
more about them so it's like driving the
01:01:06
bus from the back of the bus instead of
01:01:08
the front of the bus yeah and you're
01:01:10
developing the people in front of you
01:01:12
giving them the right education and
01:01:15
skills to take responsibility and
01:01:18
ownership and um but that take a while
01:01:21
to to to mold in cuz you get the blacks
01:01:26
in my time now we we we met on a Sunday
01:01:30
and you play your first test on the
01:01:31
Saturday we're playing England and an
01:01:33
Eden just like um Razor's doing this
01:01:38
weekend uh so that was 2 years ago same
01:01:44
opposition I'm going to needen got to be
01:01:47
there
01:01:48
there yeah who yeah do you you still
01:01:50
enjoy going and watching the games oh
01:01:52
hell yes where will you be sitting who
01:01:54
will you be with oh we with alako I'll
01:01:57
be
01:01:58
with so I'm going to
01:02:01
hospitality uh but it's just a parallel
01:02:04
you know my when I was a coach the first
01:02:06
test I was involved in was England
01:02:10
indoned all right yeah and and raised
01:02:13
his first test as England in the Eden so
01:02:16
it's only 20 years ago um so I just want
01:02:20
to be there and um like it's part of you
01:02:25
and just hope DNA I just hope it has a
01:02:28
great start so um yeah so but in those
01:02:32
days you know you didn't have any
01:02:34
leading so you meet on a Sunday you play
01:02:37
on the Saturday and that goes on for
01:02:39
quite a
01:02:40
while and we finish up in this first
01:02:43
series of
01:02:44
games uh in
01:02:47
Johannesburg and this is the end of the
01:02:49
tri Nations and they all won our home
01:02:51
tests Australia won their home tests New
01:02:54
Zealand won their home tests
01:02:56
and S Afric had won their one home
01:03:00
test so we're playing South Africa in
01:03:03
Johannesburg and it's 2004 and it's the
01:03:07
10th anniversary of Freedom Day in South
01:03:09
Africa so a partied with abolished in
01:03:13
1994 and it's massive Alice Park joerg
01:03:18
every seat's got a drum on it and a
01:03:20
scarf and the drum's got spring box
01:03:23
colors and the scarf spring box scarf
01:03:26
and Nelson Mandela walks out on D Park
01:03:29
and congratulates the springbox on their
01:03:32
selection wishes them well and I'm
01:03:34
sitting in the coaches box with Smithy
01:03:36
and Steve I'm thinking hell this is hell
01:03:39
of a game and Nelson Mandela like we
01:03:42
play for the freedom cup which is really
01:03:44
about the change you know and and you
01:03:48
you feel
01:03:50
really
01:03:53
uh it's a really good thing to be
01:03:56
involved in yeah and um but we get
01:04:01
beaten so we get finished last in the
01:04:04
tri Nations on points for and
01:04:08
against and we go back to the team hotel
01:04:11
and we have a we have a court
01:04:15
session and it's not very good it's
01:04:18
pretty ugly Court you know what a court
01:04:19
session is yeah like from old Club rugby
01:04:21
days like a drinking session drinking
01:04:22
games and that was part of the or
01:04:25
culture right which I'm not criticizing
01:04:27
that it was just part part of the time
01:04:28
part of the
01:04:29
tradition and didn't it doesn't finish
01:04:32
up that well it's pretty ugly what sort
01:04:35
of what sort of things were happening in
01:04:36
cour you you don't need to know all that
01:04:38
stuff but so we had a judge in a jury in
01:04:41
compulsory drinking and I'm thinking
01:04:44
hell this is not good in the
01:04:46
professional period we need to be better
01:04:48
than this go back to go back to New
01:04:52
Zealand call a meeting at head office
01:04:55
and um and discuss where we're at and
01:05:00
say how do you enjoy playing with the
01:05:02
old black boys you know got 10 senior
01:05:05
players oh we feel very privileged um we
01:05:08
feel you know we feel very grateful but
01:05:11
we don't enjoy the
01:05:13
culture and we don't enjoy the
01:05:16
expectation which was a massive
01:05:18
statement from the senior players and
01:05:21
that was the that was gold it was the
01:05:24
Catalyst for me me change and then we
01:05:27
had the time because we had two or three
01:05:28
months before the Indie year tour and so
01:05:31
we put in a leadership group set a
01:05:34
purpose set up the
01:05:36
culture uh discussed it with a team it
01:05:39
became reasonably strong solid concrete
01:05:44
always R for change of course but and
01:05:47
that was the start of the of the team
01:05:49
driven culture really and it it proved
01:05:53
very successful you know we had some
01:05:55
hiccups
01:05:57
yeah I am had some hiccups but in the
01:06:01
main you know it was it was it got it Go
01:06:05
players ownership and
01:06:07
responsibility uh and they were
01:06:09
fantastic you know and the more
01:06:11
ownership and responsibility they got
01:06:13
the better they
01:06:15
played Yeah you mentioned um with a r
01:06:18
smile just a second ago about the
01:06:19
hiccups in 2007 um do you want have a
01:06:22
look at another photo yeah yeah you
01:06:25
don't even want to touch
01:06:27
that yeah I've seen
01:06:32
that just about put that one in the fire
01:06:35
yeah how do you how do you feel when you
01:06:36
say it is
01:06:38
it does it does it bring back any any
01:06:41
sort of emotion or feeling of that day
01:06:44
oh yeah no it was the hardest day of Our
01:06:45
Lives I think so there was um when you
01:06:48
guys were knocked out of the 2007 World
01:06:50
Cup with that um just
01:06:52
remarkable um for numerous reasons came
01:06:55
against France um and Richie book The
01:06:58
Open side he he said it was just like a
01:07:01
moment that was captured by camera looks
01:07:03
like he's crying but he he wasn't he was
01:07:04
just wiping away some sweet or something
01:07:07
um yeah now that was at the press
01:07:10
conference after the game yeah and as
01:07:12
you could imagine there was you know
01:07:14
couple of hundred people in the press
01:07:15
conference there probably 20 television
01:07:17
companies there and it's like we were
01:07:21
favorites to win so we had a very
01:07:24
successful run into into the Rugby World
01:07:26
Cup in
01:07:27
207 we got bit complacent to be fair you
01:07:31
know we we had beaten the French by a
01:07:35
big score not not long before the Rugby
01:07:38
World Cup in
01:07:39
207 and so we got ahead of ourselves you
01:07:42
know and complacency is the biggest evil
01:07:45
in business and Sport I guess and we got
01:07:49
complacent um and you know it was a
01:07:53
difficult game the because the
01:07:55
officiating in the game was not normally
01:07:59
what how we had experienced it and so
01:08:01
the boys found that
01:08:03
difficult um and so they
01:08:06
froze most of them
01:08:10
choked and we got you know got beaten 20
01:08:12
points to 18 and at the end of the day
01:08:16
you
01:08:17
know that was another huge loing
01:08:21
curve and it probably was the was a
01:08:24
foundation to winning Rugby World Cup
01:08:26
with a bit of luck in 211 and
01:08:30
25 well there is that saying you learn
01:08:32
more from your your fails than from any
01:08:34
successes right but how did you how did
01:08:36
you manage to break history and keep the
01:08:39
job after that because as we mentioned
01:08:41
before with every single World Cup since
01:08:44
um the start of that tournament in 1987
01:08:47
you had one shot at it and then you were
01:08:48
you were gone you were out B baby was
01:08:50
out with the bath water so was it
01:08:52
because you still had the support of the
01:08:54
players like how did you manage to keep
01:08:56
keep the job and get a sick and crack at
01:08:58
it oh I think you know we had a hell of
01:09:00
a good record um to be frank we had a
01:09:04
very good record in the in the previous
01:09:06
three years in fact I'd say in 205 6 and
01:09:11
seven we probably won 90% of our tests
01:09:14
the players supported us and I had
01:09:17
Smithy and Steve and Kono and Gilbert
01:09:21
and they supported the management team
01:09:24
they're probably all better than me but
01:09:25
that's that's that's part of the deal
01:09:28
you know um so the players wanted that
01:09:32
management team to continue including
01:09:35
the
01:09:35
coaches and I think that was probably a
01:09:38
big
01:09:39
thing uh the game itself you know the
01:09:41
the quarterfinal where we get beaten
01:09:44
there was although you know I'm not
01:09:46
making excuses but there was the
01:09:49
refereeing in that game and and was
01:09:52
questionable let's not go any further
01:09:55
cuz it's people get very sensitive about
01:09:57
these
01:09:58
things um um you know so there was a few
01:10:04
few gray areas there I I was I was
01:10:07
amazed that we were reappointed think um
01:10:10
I went to Wellington with rayan went
01:10:13
through the interview didn't interview
01:10:15
well we went out that night which we
01:10:17
usually do and had a cutle of wines and
01:10:19
a nice meal and said well were we
01:10:22
looking for something else to
01:10:23
do back to Japan maybe or oh well you
01:10:27
know yeah and and I got you when jock
01:10:30
hob said you've been reappointed the
01:10:32
next morning I went to the New Zealand
01:10:34
Rugby and you couldn't knock me over
01:10:35
with a feather but again you know from
01:10:38
that adversity you learn and and we
01:10:42
learned we learned a lot you know we we
01:10:44
were got ahead of ourselves we got
01:10:47
complacent um the unexpected happened in
01:10:50
that game we learned from The Unexpected
01:10:53
we had a we had a
01:10:55
of policy for 211 Rugby World Cup the
01:10:59
unexpected will happen handled it and
01:11:02
Finly enough we had some unexpected in
01:11:05
21 and we had um Carrie Evans coming and
01:11:09
help us so Gilbert got Carrie Evans to
01:11:11
help us and Carrie Evans was a
01:11:13
psychiatrist an ex New Zealand football
01:11:16
captain and a black belt in
01:11:18
karate and he talked about he he worked
01:11:22
with us on the mental strength side of
01:11:24
the team
01:11:25
and those two little those two things
01:11:28
made a massive difference to us and
01:11:31
helped us win until 11 smash the French
01:11:34
87 one point one huge point that um that
01:11:39
tournament that I can't imagine what
01:11:42
that tournament was like for you because
01:11:43
it was it just felt like everything was
01:11:45
falling apart you know I remember at the
01:11:48
beginning of the tournament there there
01:11:49
was shots of like Aaron cruden in the
01:11:51
grand standand drinking beer in
01:11:52
Wellington not even in the frame Steven
01:11:54
Donald was out white baiting um Dan went
01:11:57
out injured Richie had a broken foot
01:12:00
like oh there was incidents with like
01:12:02
Zach and Corey Jane and um who else was
01:12:05
it I he taking like from a coach's
01:12:08
perspective and a former Headmaster you
01:12:10
must have be like what the hell is going
01:12:12
on around me no were the unexpected you
01:12:15
know we had Richie with a broken metga
01:12:17
tassel in his foot and and Deb Robinson
01:12:21
the doctor she was and the medical staff
01:12:23
were fantastic he didn't train for a
01:12:24
month
01:12:25
unexpected it happen to handle it and
01:12:28
Richie and I didn't discuss his foot
01:12:30
because we'd have to make a decision so
01:12:32
what what do you mean you didn't discuss
01:12:33
his foot we didn't discuss his foot we
01:12:36
didn't talk about Richie's foot between
01:12:39
the two of us left it to the medical
01:12:41
staff they said he was okay he didn't
01:12:43
train
01:12:45
played um then we had all these injuries
01:12:48
to the playmaker to the 58 position so
01:12:51
Dan ripy duck the Tenon off the bone and
01:12:55
in the practice before the Canadian
01:12:56
round robin game the last round robin
01:12:58
game he was going to captain on the side
01:12:59
for the first
01:13:00
time that was massive you know and he's
01:13:03
out of the
01:13:04
tournament I remember going into the
01:13:06
dressing shed after he'd done that and
01:13:09
said look fellas the unexpected has
01:13:11
happened we've we've planned for this
01:13:14
Dan's out of the tournament Colin Slade
01:13:16
will be superb we'll go up 5% and play
01:13:20
for
01:13:20
Dan and then Aaron cruden came in right
01:13:24
so he wasn't in the team now who's
01:13:26
drinking beers at a pool match in
01:13:28
Wellington well I don't want to know
01:13:31
this I might have to walk out of this
01:13:33
interview now I don't I don't want to
01:13:36
know what Aaron cruden was doing out of
01:13:38
the old blacks it's immaterial so he
01:13:41
came
01:13:42
in he came in and he was just a kid you
01:13:45
know um he still a nepes really
01:13:48
19yearold guy in a Rugby World Cup as
01:13:52
the playmaker in this in the core of the
01:13:54
shots
01:13:56
very talented Aaron very talented player
01:13:59
good athlete but
01:14:00
young and then Colin St gets injured in
01:14:03
the first quarterfinal in the
01:14:05
quarterfinal goes the argentinians he's
01:14:08
out of the tournament need to find
01:14:10
Beaver need to find Steve Donald can't
01:14:13
find
01:14:14
him rang a young lady who knew him knew
01:14:17
him well now his wife said where's
01:14:20
Beaver he's white baiting
01:14:22
Ted I'll get him to ring you Beaver
01:14:25
Rings me what are you doing white
01:14:27
baiting how much you got eight kilos
01:14:30
eight pounds let's be
01:14:33
correct if you bring that to the
01:14:36
Heritage Hotel on Orland baver you can
01:14:37
play in the final of the Rugby World
01:14:40
Cup about 3 hours later knock on the
01:14:44
door Beaver comes in with a chili bin py
01:14:47
whiy grabs it Cooks a white bait meal
01:14:50
for the Steam and the rest is history
01:14:53
I've heard you so Aaron cruden gets
01:14:55
injured in the final so he beat the
01:14:58
Australians and play well in the
01:15:00
semi Aaron kudin gets injured in the
01:15:03
final Beaver comes on wins the game for
01:15:05
us uh
01:15:08
like he was he he went through hell
01:15:12
Steve Donald yeah through PE from the
01:15:14
from people and the media because he had
01:15:17
a he had a a poor game against Australia
01:15:21
in Hong Kong cost us the game perhaps
01:15:25
I love him fantastic guy bright knows
01:15:28
the game comes
01:15:30
in um comes in on the final boys walk
01:15:35
towards him Embrace him love him because
01:15:38
he's a great team guy and he wins the
01:15:40
game for us kicks the winning goal plays
01:15:42
out of his skin now he's written a book
01:15:44
had a movie made of him he'll probably
01:15:46
be the next prime minister I'd say yeah
01:15:49
how do yeah how do you reflect on that
01:15:52
because it's like um you know just like
01:15:55
one point in it lucky kick or whatever
01:15:58
lucky opportunity for Steven Donald to
01:16:00
have the chance to redeem himself um but
01:16:03
if he if he missed that kick he' still
01:16:05
be you
01:16:06
know not respected by the New Zealand
01:16:09
Public as you would be as well it seems
01:16:11
almost quite cynical in a way doesn't it
01:16:13
do you know what I mean he didn't miss
01:16:15
it yeah he picked it I guess I suppose
01:16:18
I'm thinking it had things been
01:16:20
different well it's a very fine line
01:16:22
isn't there yeah I've got to go mate oh
01:16:24
do you yeah um you know I think we're
01:16:26
just about done haven't we okay just
01:16:28
just about done yeah um sorry okay oh no
01:16:31
that's right but I I just found you
01:16:33
captivating I could have yeah talked
01:16:35
talked for ages um in the um in the
01:16:38
Becky book you say the Rugby World Cup
01:16:40
is the Holy Grail that's what gives you
01:16:42
peace has it given you peace oh for sure
01:16:45
yeah like the feeling after the
01:16:48
final walking on Eden
01:16:51
Park just you just feel at peace m
01:16:55
and it's probably the first time in
01:16:56
eight years you feel an absolute peace
01:16:58
because you always knows another game
01:17:01
and another game so I I was lucky enough
01:17:03
to coach SBS for out the three
01:17:06
tests
01:17:07
and I'd made up my mind that that was I
01:17:10
was 66 young I was I you had the pension
01:17:15
coming and you didn't need a job no but
01:17:18
I felt young and I still feel
01:17:21
youngish um but I and it was time to
01:17:23
move and I was
01:17:25
I was
01:17:26
so grateful for that opportunity but it
01:17:29
it was amazing how how you feel and then
01:17:33
ran walked onto the field and you just
01:17:36
saw the relief in her face actually this
01:17:39
might be a photo you prepared to
01:17:41
hold yeah that's the photo yeah the
01:17:44
relief in her face I get emotional
01:17:47
looking at that a
01:17:50
um because you know you're married to
01:17:54
this this wonderful lady who had got no
01:17:57
control really you know and you know we
01:18:01
wondered if we could live in this
01:18:02
country if we got beaten in
01:18:05
211 and uh we love New
01:18:08
Zealand and it's our country what you
01:18:11
and I could see what Hardy was talking
01:18:13
about um like there's a huge amount of
01:18:16
scrutiny and I could tell you stories
01:18:17
for hours about the scrutiny and people
01:18:20
hiding around your house and hiding
01:18:23
under hiding behind the head trying to
01:18:25
get you know anyway let's not go there
01:18:29
and so there's a huge amount of
01:18:34
relief um and it's all part and parcel
01:18:37
of the job I guess shouldn't be though
01:18:39
should it um to it agree it should well
01:18:41
some of those things shouldn't
01:18:43
happen but you know when you're all
01:18:46
black coach that you're going to go
01:18:48
through some some examination and some
01:18:51
scrutiny um but you know you would
01:18:54
change up
01:18:56
quits it's been a hell of a career and
01:18:59
one last photo this one they say there's
01:19:01
that saying behind every great man is a
01:19:03
great
01:19:05
woman yeah I don't know where that's
01:19:07
been taken
01:19:09
um but gez you You' you've married well
01:19:12
eh you've done good I have what would
01:19:15
what would she about say about your
01:19:17
greatest um strengths greatest
01:19:19
flaws oh she'd probably go on about my
01:19:21
four or hours
01:19:23
but no no I think you know we were very
01:19:26
lucky I'm very
01:19:27
lucky um cuz she's been so supportive
01:19:31
and know you couldn't have done it
01:19:33
otherwise um like you go through some
01:19:36
real challenges and we mentioned the
01:19:39
depression after the lines to
01:19:41
her um H I've got so much you know so
01:19:46
much respect and
01:19:48
gratitude and now it's 54
01:19:52
years Inc incredible and I I see you
01:19:54
guys around I see you guys around you're
01:19:56
holding hands you're drinking wine um
01:19:58
you're laughing it's um I I mean it's
01:20:02
inspirational like in terms of a
01:20:04
partnership it's a couple goals um you
01:20:06
know I
01:20:07
remember before the 211
01:20:10
final I went home on the Saturday night
01:20:14
it was a Sunday game M I think I'm
01:20:16
right and I couldn't do nothing in the
01:20:19
pub you right just sitting there
01:20:21
festering waiting for the game mhm
01:20:25
and we we were living in some helas and
01:20:28
we walked around the Waterfront because
01:20:30
I always walk before the game it relaxes
01:20:32
me
01:20:33
mhm well it's meant to relax me so
01:20:36
you're just doing exercise make you feel
01:20:38
good pass some time and walking past
01:20:41
people and they're looking at me
01:20:42
thinking what's he doing out here why
01:20:45
isn't he with the O
01:20:47
blacks and uh I mean we work for walk
01:20:50
for three and a half hours before I came
01:20:52
in Wellington once it's just what you
01:20:54
did you know we have a chat and catch up
01:20:57
because you you're away all week you
01:20:59
might have been away for weeks and just
01:21:02
nice to be able to chat and talk to your
01:21:05
mate you know about other things rather
01:21:08
than rugby take your mind off it for a
01:21:11
while uh
01:21:13
no I I can't I can't speak hardly enough
01:21:17
she is your mate she's your best mate eh
01:21:20
correct yeah hey Ted Su gr Henry thank
01:21:23
you so much for your time
01:21:25
um I really appreciate it and um yeah
01:21:27
yeah just thanks thanks for everything
01:21:29
you've done for New Zealand Rugby and
01:21:31
just thanks for being a just a just a
01:21:32
good man oh I I feel very fortunate that
01:21:36
had that
01:21:37
opportunity thank you
