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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New
00:00:06
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:08
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
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hole in one in to
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Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
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here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
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[music] investments. Get in here, Finn.
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Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first.
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>> Steve Divine, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Good to be here,
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>> mate. It's It's great to connect. You
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You reached out to me and I was like,
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"Shit, yeah, I'll have you on my
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podcast."
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>> Yeah. No, we're uh we're getting out
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there doing all sorts of things. It's uh
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you know, the last couple of weeks have
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been pretty hectic, but uh but pretty
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exciting at the same time.
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>> F. Yeah. Why have the last few weeks
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been pretty hectic and exciting? Uh so
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we we essentially launched uh two weeks
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ago a well a week ago um a portable
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brain scanner that uh assesses and
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detects concussion with a 2-minute scan.
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Um and that's sort of a bit of a game
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changer really in terms of um concussion
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around sport u but not just sport uh
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around New Zealand.
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>> And this is something you know a lot
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about. [ __ ] there's a lot of chapters
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to this podcast today. There's a lot to
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talk about. There's um yeah, there's the
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concussion stuff, the rugby stuff, the
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fire service stuff, life after there's a
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lot.
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>> Um but just yeah, rugby injury stock
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take. Let me know if I miss anything
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here. Three broken fingers, broken toe,
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broken nose, broken collarbone, uh ribs,
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12 ankle operations.
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>> Yeah.
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>> ACL reconstruction, teeth knocked out,
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and that's from the neck down and then
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the neck up. 30 to 40 concussions.
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>> Uh I'd say comfortably. I'd say
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comfortably 30 to 40. Yeah.
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unfortunately,
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but it was a it was it was a long time
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ago when uh you know things a lot of a
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lot has changed in rugby, particularly
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rugby uh these days, which is which is
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good, but um we we yeah, we need to get
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a bit better as well.
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>> Mhm.
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>> You we'll get into the medtech lab group
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stuff and this um portable brain
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scanner, which you've you've got
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actually got right here.
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>> Yep. We'll chuck it on the table for a
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bit so it's on camera for anyone that's
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watching the podcast. But um these head
00:02:21
injuries that you suffered over your
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playing career um
00:02:26
yeah how do you feel now when you get
00:02:27
out of bed 15 20 years later after
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retiring?
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>> I feel old like everyone else when I get
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out of bed. Um but I so 20 years on I
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still get um uh I get injections into my
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in my head, my temple and my neck. Um so
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I I I I get into a stage where I get
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really fatigued. uh I get a a lot of
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headaches. Um and those headaches can
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develop into migraines. So I I feel when
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that's happening um I've sort of learned
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to know when I'm starting not to do well
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that I um reach out to my doctor and he
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he gives me a few more injections and
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and we're pretty good for a little while
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after that. So as long as I keep on top
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of things uh the headwise I'm generally
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pretty good these days I feel.
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>> You say you're pretty good for a while
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after that. How long how long do these
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injections last? uh sometimes now like
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we're getting out towards two years.
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>> Okay.
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>> Um so it is it is pretty good. Uh and
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initially it was sort of 12 weeks sort
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of thing and uh we had to keep on top of
00:03:26
it but yeah I'm pushing it out now which
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is quite nice. I still at times I still
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feel like I might have a migraine but I
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don't have the the the blinding
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headache. I just I just feel a bit sick
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and um want to vomit sometimes and
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sometimes do but that's a small price to
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pay for for what I was living with with
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the migraine. So, um certainly happy for
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that to happen.
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>> When you say sometimes, like how how
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frequently or infrequently?
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>> I might be, you know, um a couple times
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a month. I just I just don't I feel like
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I have a uh I feel like I have a
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migraine without having the headache. I
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just feel a bit yuck in the stomach and
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sometimes um want to throw up and um but
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that yeah, like I said, that's that's a
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hell of a lot better [snorts] to where I
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was cuz where I was a couple of times a
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month, though, that's still not a great
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quality of life. I I like at my worst I
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was um four days a week in bed, curtains
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drawn, uh lights out with a bucket by
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the bed for for days, sometimes multiple
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days and nights. Um for you know post my
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last uh hit to the head. Uh that was
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essentially two years. I was I was that
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bad.
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So this is while you were still playing
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or after you finished?
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>> That was my So my last hit. the last hit
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the head. I I I the next day I woke up,
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I was sore. I'd had a you know some
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teeth issues. I had a nose issue and I
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was pretty sore. And then in the days
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post that I got my first ever migraine
00:04:54
and then they essentially just
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uh kicked in for
00:04:58
>> um you know at the start it was you know
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five five out of the seven days. Um was
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it was it was tough. M
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>> yes you so you played your last game in
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200
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>> 2007
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>> I think it was like round one of the MPC
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that year so um against counties at Eden
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Park and um I think um we had a little
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scrum move off the back of a scrum eight
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past nine and then I that's about the
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last thing I remember still to this day
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I've seen it um but uh don't don't
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really remember it and just got a big
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swinging arm to the to the mouth uh nose
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nose area and um yeah and that was about
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it. I know I went to hospital that day
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um with they thought I had a broken nose
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or a hematoma in my nose and uh and then
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to the dentist not long after.
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>> Is that the photo from that game?
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>> No, that was that another one.
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>> That was well before that. [laughter]
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>> Yeah,
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>> another one. So, this was like a
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recurring thing in your rugby career
00:05:55
like your first All Black test against
00:05:57
England. You were concussed twice.
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>> Yeah, it
00:05:59
>> was just like an ongoing What is that?
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bad luck or were you just concussion
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prone?
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>> I I I don't I don't know. I I think
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maybe um maybe the repetitive effect
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maybe took it to certainly took its toll
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towards the end, but in the starter I
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you know I I was a lot lower than than
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most of the people I was playing against
00:06:19
which which probably didn't help. Um I
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threw myself around probably a bit more
00:06:23
than I needed to which probably didn't
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help. And I certainly didn't uh allow
00:06:28
myself to recover. um uh as well as I
00:06:32
should have but you know what you don't
00:06:34
know you don't know back in the day so
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that all those sort of factors I feel
00:06:38
probably um led me down the track I went
00:06:41
down
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[snorts]
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>> what impact have these head injuries had
00:06:45
on you not in terms of the actual the
00:06:48
the actual pain and discomfort which you
00:06:50
sort of talked about before about days
00:06:52
in bed but just like from a mental
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perspective
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>> uh you know I went from being a really
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um a really fit person like I was really
00:07:00
fit even amongst um the professional
00:07:04
athletes I train with. I I was you know
00:07:06
towards the the top end of being fit and
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you know within a week I I I couldn't
00:07:10
get out of bed and you know that that
00:07:13
was really hard for me. I I really
00:07:15
really struggled to um not be the person
00:07:19
I was, you know, and I
00:07:21
>> you know there were dark days and they
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were a long they were they were it was 2
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years of you know really really
00:07:27
struggling to to uh exist as a human
00:07:31
being. Uh I was a new parent.
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>> Uh I was actually I had a migraine when
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my um second child was born. Uh they
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woke me up in a lazy boy and he pops out
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and I went back to sleep cuz I just I
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couldn't see um the birth care in
00:07:47
Oakland. This amazing building up on the
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um top story of Oakland Hospital with
00:07:53
amazing views of the city and but I had
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to have the um curtains drawn. Um it was
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just you know the light was I was too
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sensitive to light and I had a migraine
00:08:02
and and I I I couldn't cope on even on a
00:08:05
on a day you know like that. I I just I
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was really I really struggled to exist
00:08:11
as a as a human being, as a functioning
00:08:13
human being. [snorts]
00:08:14
>> Did it change your personality?
00:08:16
>> I think how can it not?
00:08:18
>> In that in those in those moments
00:08:19
definitely like I was grumpy. I was
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angry. I I couldn't I couldn't
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socialize. I couldn't concentrate on uh
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a conversation. Like I just literally if
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it was if I was in a bar or a restaurant
00:08:31
where there was background noise, I I
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just I couldn't do it. I I'd last 2
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minutes and I'd just have a headache and
00:08:36
I'd be so fatigued from it that I'd you
00:08:40
know I'd have to get out of there. I
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just so you know socially for those few
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years I was uh inept really I just I
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couldn't handle um that aspect of things
00:08:50
the noise.
00:08:51
>> You just become reclusive. Well, yeah, I
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I was, you know, I was trying to exist
00:08:56
as a human and and the effort it would
00:08:58
take would take a lot out of me. And I
00:09:00
think that probably trying too hard in
00:09:02
the early days probably contributed to
00:09:04
to me um having you know migraines
00:09:08
lasting for so long because you know
00:09:10
having a couple of young kids running
00:09:12
around the house and whatnot. It was um
00:09:14
with not a lot of help and also not a
00:09:16
lot of um medical advice on how to do or
00:09:20
what to do cuz it was so early days
00:09:22
around concussion. [snorts]
00:09:24
>> Uh initially they didn't think it was
00:09:26
from my brain. Initially they thought I
00:09:28
had some sort of um you know fatigue
00:09:31
syndrome um cuz that's where my symptoms
00:09:33
I was just so fatigued.
00:09:36
>> Did you know in your heart it was your
00:09:38
brain though?
00:09:38
>> I knew something was I knew something
00:09:40
was wrong. So I I I literally you know I
00:09:43
woke up in my car uh between rugby
00:09:46
trainings like I I drove home between
00:09:49
trainings and I just woke up in my car
00:09:51
in my garage cuz I was I just fell
00:09:54
asleep. I was so tired. Uh, another time
00:09:56
I I I got out of the car, made it to the
00:09:58
hallway and I just slept in the hallway
00:10:00
and then wake up and go back to training
00:10:02
and I just I remember sitting down with
00:10:04
my doc and just going, "Doc, I I I like
00:10:07
I literally I don't know what's wrong
00:10:08
with me, but I know there's something
00:10:10
seriously
00:10:11
>> seriously wrong." And [snorts] before
00:10:12
one of the games, um, you know, I just
00:10:15
slept for days. Like I literally slept
00:10:19
for 16 hours before one of the games and
00:10:21
then all day of the game and I just you
00:10:24
know that's not like me and I I just I
00:10:28
didn't know what was wrong in one of in
00:10:30
you know one of my rugby matches I was
00:10:33
playing Queensland and I was playing a
00:10:35
halfback called Sam Cordley who I played
00:10:38
Australian 21s with. So I knew Sam
00:10:40
reasonably well and halfway through the
00:10:42
match he he looked at me like he looked
00:10:43
me dead in the eyes at a scrum and he's
00:10:46
like mate are you all right? You you
00:10:48
like you don't look well and I was just
00:10:51
so fatigued and just so I just had no
00:10:53
idea what was going on
00:10:56
which is which is amazing right an
00:10:58
opposition player can can take the time
00:11:00
out to to sense it.
00:11:03
>> Yeah it's touching really.
00:11:04
>> Ah yeah
00:11:05
>> that's a beautiful moment. It's lucky
00:11:07
you remember it.
00:11:08
>> Yeah. Ah, and you know that I I had been
00:11:10
knocked out in the weeks prior, like 3
00:11:12
weeks leading up to that game. And um
00:11:15
you know, I I on that Monday morning
00:11:18
before it, I I said to doc, "Something's
00:11:19
wrong." And and then, you know, the
00:11:21
coaches walk in and say, "We've had a
00:11:23
few injuries. You're good to go." And
00:11:25
you was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm
00:11:26
good." And but I I I knew, you know, I
00:11:29
really knew something wasn't well uh
00:11:31
that match. And um I I I took some time
00:11:35
off post that game. I just I I just
00:11:37
couldn't operate. So I had 6 months off
00:11:39
and were on all sorts of medication to
00:11:42
try and get better and you know with a
00:11:44
bit of a rest I came I came good that I
00:11:46
think that was 2005
00:11:48
um and then I maybe 2006 and then I had
00:11:52
you know came back for another year
00:11:54
essentially u before I took the last hit
00:11:57
to the head.
00:11:59
Are there many black spots in your
00:12:01
memory? Like do can you remember a lot
00:12:02
of what went on or are there just are
00:12:03
there periods that
00:12:06
it's like they never happened
00:12:07
>> funnily enough like I don't remember a
00:12:09
lot of the onfield stuff um [snorts] but
00:12:13
not a lot of the boys can like um it's
00:12:16
always a bit of a blur and uh as you
00:12:18
know so fast and as it happens so yeah I
00:12:20
don't remember a lot of the onfield
00:12:22
stuff I remember still remember a lot of
00:12:23
the the good times off the field
00:12:26
>> um I I'm probably better at some of the
00:12:28
boys actually at remembering some of
00:12:30
some of those times which is which is um
00:12:33
nice for me. Uh I I don't remember
00:12:36
anything of my first test match. I I um
00:12:40
I was knocked out twice in that game and
00:12:43
uh eventually came off. I needed I think
00:12:45
a dozen stitches around my eye and I
00:12:48
just I didn't I was keen to go back on
00:12:50
and I I just I didn't know. One of the
00:12:52
coaches mentioned a move at halftime and
00:12:54
I was for the life of me I did not know
00:12:57
what it was. And then I asked one of the
00:12:59
other guys and they were like, "Well,
00:13:00
that's not right." And then the doctors
00:13:02
got involved and they were like, "No,
00:13:03
you're not going back out." Which is,
00:13:05
you know, you you work so hard and you
00:13:08
train so hard for so long to get uh a
00:13:10
moment like that and then, you know,
00:13:12
very disappointing to to not be able to
00:13:15
to play and then also think, you know, I
00:13:19
might I might actually be heading home
00:13:20
here. So, you know, that was uh that was
00:13:24
hard. It was a hard couple of days
00:13:26
thinking finally getting to where you
00:13:27
want to be and then have it end um by an
00:13:29
injury that you can't see. Um yeah, so
00:13:33
it was it was probably um lucky that I,
00:13:38
you know, we used to do a baseline test
00:13:40
back in the day. So, you'd have a
00:13:42
baseline test that you you knew that you
00:13:44
couldn't go very well in because if a
00:13:46
situation arose where um you needed to
00:13:49
play um you could then probably pass the
00:13:53
baseline. Um [snorts] so, I I'm I'm not
00:13:56
100% sure, but I know in the days after
00:13:59
my first test, I did a I did a baseline.
00:14:01
I did a test and they compared it to the
00:14:03
baseline and I was all right. So, I got
00:14:05
to stay.
00:14:08
>> Cuz you were just that hungry to play.
00:14:09
>> I just I just loved it. E. Yeah,
00:14:11
>> like it's not I I'm not an athlete that
00:14:14
like I'm not a a Dan Carter or Richie
00:14:17
Mccor, you know, and I I
00:14:20
I
00:14:22
had to work really really really hard to
00:14:24
where I got and you know, you finally
00:14:26
get there and then, you know, to have it
00:14:28
taken away by something that happened,
00:14:31
but you can still run the next day, you
00:14:33
can still walk, you sort of feel like,
00:14:36
you know, I'm I'm I'm good to go and
00:14:39
ultra competitive. which was probably my
00:14:42
biggest problem looking back and it's
00:14:44
like yeah let's go um let's get let's
00:14:47
get amongst it which was you know as
00:14:50
much as I sort of feel the whole thing
00:14:52
is as much as my fault as as anyone
00:14:54
else's fault where I ended up
00:14:58
[sighs]
00:14:58
>> what about the impacted you you just
00:15:00
before we started recording you said
00:15:02
you've just become an empty neester your
00:15:03
kids are adults they've left home what's
00:15:05
are you still are you on marriage number
00:15:07
one
00:15:07
>> uh no I've uh I have um been divorced uh
00:15:12
um from the mother of my boys. And
00:15:14
>> did the did the concussions have
00:15:16
anything to do with that or
00:15:17
>> Yeah, 100%.
00:15:18
>> Yeah, you sort of pushed her away.
00:15:20
>> Well, I think there was a lot of you
00:15:21
know, I was I was I was like a like a a
00:15:24
bear with a sore head. literally and and
00:15:28
you know I I wasn't the person who I was
00:15:30
and I was not well
00:15:32
>> and I couldn't be well like I I couldn't
00:15:34
be myself cuz I was just you know I was
00:15:37
just unwell and you know that definitely
00:15:40
definitely led to
00:15:42
um you know a breakdown in the
00:15:44
relationship for sure.
00:15:45
>> Well it's a big burden for the other
00:15:46
person isn't it? It's a lot to take on.
00:15:48
Yeah, I mean, [snorts]
00:15:50
yeah, being, you know, I now I, you
00:15:53
know, things get hard in my life, I I
00:15:55
refer to health and happiness because at
00:15:57
the end of the day, there's essentially
00:16:00
the only two things that are important
00:16:01
when when you are ill, gravely ill in a
00:16:04
bed. Um, your health and and your
00:16:06
happiness are,
00:16:08
>> you know, two things that need to be a
00:16:10
priority. And so, you know, when when
00:16:12
things get tough for me, that's that's
00:16:14
what I remind myself and that's where I
00:16:15
go back to to making sure I'm ticking
00:16:17
those two boxes, then then life
00:16:19
>> is generally pretty good. But, you
00:16:21
unfortunately for a lot of people, you
00:16:23
know, the health the health side of
00:16:24
things is is not a tick in the box.
00:16:27
>> Yeah. Um, yeah. What other impact has it
00:16:29
had on your family and friends?
00:16:32
>> Yeah. like like I I was very lucky, you
00:16:35
know, 2 years post my really severe
00:16:38
symptoms, I I received some medication
00:16:41
that that really helped me and um you
00:16:45
know, from then I I was able to function
00:16:47
as a human being again. So, you know,
00:16:48
those injections just you know, they
00:16:51
saved my life really
00:16:53
>> and I I I can become a functioning human
00:16:55
being again and you know, got got my
00:16:58
life back on track. It took a while. Um
00:17:00
and you know joined the fire service and
00:17:02
and um doing some other business stuff
00:17:05
these days. And um you know the fire
00:17:09
service for me I I really enjoy being
00:17:11
part of a team and the fire service
00:17:13
really you know I found a team
00:17:14
environment in that which was really
00:17:16
good for me but also allowed me to be a
00:17:18
dad for 4 days out of eight cuz I was at
00:17:21
work for 4 days on and 4 days off and
00:17:23
for those four days I was essentially a
00:17:26
single dad just looking after his his
00:17:28
kids which was which was you know a
00:17:30
great time essentially for me. I I you
00:17:33
know it was hard but you know it was a a
00:17:37
time where I can invest four days into
00:17:39
my kids a week which you know not a lot
00:17:42
of people get an opportunity to do that.
00:17:43
>> Yeah. And rock bottom for Steve Divine.
00:17:46
What did that look like?
00:17:47
>> Uh that was um that was me not knowing
00:17:51
if I was ever going to get better.
00:17:54
Um it was um
00:17:56
>> after being in pain for how long?
00:17:57
>> Two years.
00:17:59
So yeah, it was a it was a it was a ride
00:18:01
and um you know I I it was it was a
00:18:06
tough ride and that was that was rock
00:18:08
bottom. I just I just wanted
00:18:11
the headaches to go away. Just just make
00:18:13
the headaches go away and I let me live
00:18:16
my life and um yeah, fortunately enough
00:18:20
um the injections did that. And I I feel
00:18:23
lucky cuz you know I was I was I had a
00:18:26
life again. And I just know there's
00:18:27
there's a lot of people out there with
00:18:29
concussion that are in those moments
00:18:31
that
00:18:32
um they're in those moments and they
00:18:36
they don't have answers to to their
00:18:40
solutions. I met up with a guy um this
00:18:42
morning [snorts] who's going through
00:18:44
some some troubles who's a mutual friend
00:18:46
and you know and we had a good chat for
00:18:48
for an hour and a bit about you know how
00:18:51
those moments what helped me in those
00:18:53
moments and maybe what could help him
00:18:55
but you know concussion in the brain is
00:18:57
it's such a big it's such a big complex
00:19:00
organ that no one really knows. So, I
00:19:02
mean, a lot of people
00:19:04
uh that have had things similar to me,
00:19:07
you know, what I did doesn't help. And,
00:19:10
you know, what works for them doesn't
00:19:12
work for me. It's just it's such a a
00:19:14
strange organ that we don't really know
00:19:16
a lot about. So, yeah, it's good to be
00:19:18
able to talk about it and help people
00:19:20
that maybe don't know where to go cuz it
00:19:22
it it's a battle.
00:19:25
>> At your lowest, did you ever consider
00:19:27
taking your own life?
00:19:29
>> Don't tell my kids.
00:19:33
>> [gasps]
00:19:35
[sighs]
00:19:36
>> Yeah. Is that what is that what kept you
00:19:38
here?
00:19:38
>> Yeah.
00:19:39
>> Mhm.
00:19:44
[sighs]
00:19:45
How old were they at the time?
00:19:48
>> Uh so my youngest would have been two
00:19:52
younger than two between Yeah. He would
00:19:54
have been one and my probably was three.
00:20:01
>> [sighs]
00:20:04
>> [ __ ] that's grim. It's a grim space to
00:20:06
be playing in. Do you I can see you
00:20:10
getting emotional today when there's
00:20:12
been a couple of like incidents of rugby
00:20:13
players in the past like year or so that
00:20:15
have um uh taken their own life and it's
00:20:18
thought to be, you know, related to uh
00:20:20
the same sort of thing. Um yeah. How
00:20:22
does do you shudder when you hear that?
00:20:24
How do you feel when these cases crop
00:20:26
up? Uh you count yourself lucky that it
00:20:30
wasn't you.
00:20:30
>> Yeah. Yeah, I do. Um
00:20:34
yeah, I I I find that really difficult
00:20:37
because you know whenever there's um new
00:20:40
research comes out or new development
00:20:43
that I I get a phone call from a
00:20:45
journalist
00:20:47
that wants to write a story about
00:20:49
whatever it is and you know some of some
00:20:52
of it has been grim where it's like um
00:20:55
you know Alzheimer's and dementia and
00:20:58
you know you're probably going to have
00:20:59
it and you know it just it it it's grim
00:21:03
to think about what may happen. Um, but
00:21:05
at the same time, I'm I'm very thankful
00:21:09
that I have what I have. Um, and I don't
00:21:13
know, you know, am I living with a time
00:21:16
bomb? I I don't know.
00:21:18
>> Um, so that just makes me want to, you
00:21:21
know, live life for now and not too much
00:21:24
in the future because I I don't I don't
00:21:26
know. And it may be good, it may be bad.
00:21:28
I I don't know. But, you know, I just as
00:21:31
long as I look after my health and
00:21:33
happiness today, then then I feel like
00:21:35
I'm in a pretty good pretty good space.
00:21:38
>> Do your kids know what you just shared
00:21:40
here?
00:21:40
>> Yeah. Yeah. Listen, they know. They
00:21:42
know. Uh I finished playing rugby
00:21:45
because of my um hits to the head. They
00:21:48
know that. Uh I've coached both of them
00:21:50
for a long time in rugby. Um so yeah,
00:21:53
they know um they understand that. They
00:21:56
they probably don't know the the grim
00:21:59
detail that I just um spoke about, but I
00:22:04
guess they're of age now. I probably
00:22:06
tried to protect them for a long time,
00:22:07
but I guess they're of age now where
00:22:08
they can understand that.
00:22:12
>> Well, no doubt they'll um hear this or
00:22:14
watch this or information will get fed
00:22:16
back to them. Um yeah,
00:22:20
I mean, I think they'll be proud and
00:22:22
relieved. Um, but yeah, if they happen
00:22:26
to be watching this or listening to
00:22:27
this, what would you what would you want
00:22:28
to say to them directly?
00:22:30
>> Well, like I I've always told them, you
00:22:33
know, the hardest thing you're ever
00:22:35
going to do as a male is ask for help.
00:22:37
So,
00:22:39
yeah, I just hope if anyone ever is in
00:22:44
those moments that they reach out for
00:22:46
help.
00:22:47
>> Did you?
00:22:49
It took me a while
00:22:50
>> and and [snorts] I did I reached out to
00:22:53
my old footy doctor Steven Car and um
00:22:58
yeah he sort of sent me in a track that
00:23:02
that really assisted
00:23:04
>> and uh we're still friends. Oh my god. H
00:23:09
no, we're still Doc's a great man and
00:23:11
he's he's probably now um maybe maybe
00:23:14
the best um doctor in New Zealand in
00:23:18
terms of um head injury.
00:23:20
>> So, you know, he he he was part of the
00:23:23
journey and and still is.
00:23:25
Yeah. And a great man. And anyone
00:23:27
anyone, you know, anyone out there who's
00:23:29
really struggling, I I think, you know,
00:23:31
if you can get a hold of Doc Car, he's
00:23:34
uh
00:23:34
>> he's certainly a great great contact and
00:23:36
a and a and a great person who who will
00:23:38
be able to help.
00:23:39
>> Well, this photo card I've got here, um
00:23:42
that's half of him.
00:23:43
>> That's Doc. Yeah, that's Doc. So, that
00:23:45
must have been, you know, maybe 200
00:23:48
>> 2005 or six or seven or something like
00:23:51
that.
00:23:52
>> Yeah. You you don't look present at all.
00:23:54
>> No, I I I actually think that might have
00:23:57
been um at North Harbor and
00:24:02
uh for Oakland. I Yeah, I wasn't well. I
00:24:06
Yeah, I and that's it, right? But you
00:24:09
know, give [snorts] me 5 minutes and I
00:24:11
was wanting to play on from from looking
00:24:13
like that, feeling like that.
00:24:17
>> Are you typically emotional?
00:24:19
>> Uh are you quite
00:24:20
>> No.
00:24:21
>> No. Yeah,
00:24:22
>> I try to be
00:24:23
>> I try to be old school,
00:24:25
>> but
00:24:26
>> old school is not the necessarily the
00:24:27
right way.
00:24:28
>> I get I get emotional when I talk about
00:24:30
my kids.
00:24:31
>> Yeah.
00:24:31
>> Which, you know, which is all right.
00:24:33
Right.
00:24:34
>> Oh, 100%. And I I appreciate your um
00:24:36
Yeah. being vulnerable on the podcast
00:24:38
today.
00:24:39
>> Are you Are you um I don't know. I get I
00:24:42
get the feeling you're um you're a guy
00:24:43
that takes like extreme extreme
00:24:45
accountability for everything, but are
00:24:47
you pissed off that Mo wasn't done to
00:24:48
protect you?
00:24:50
Um,
00:24:52
I'm not like I I know we just didn't
00:24:55
know back then and I I I'm sort of bit
00:24:58
of a, you know, ground zero case number
00:25:00
one. So, I just I'm not angry at anyone.
00:25:04
I'm not
00:25:06
Yeah, [snorts] I just I just want I just
00:25:09
want things to get better. I just want I
00:25:12
don't want other people to suffer. I
00:25:14
mean, what I did was 20 years ago.
00:25:17
>> I just I we are better. We are getting
00:25:19
better. But we we we continue need to be
00:25:21
better. It's a big reason why I,
00:25:26
>> you know, have got involved.
00:25:28
>> Yeah.
00:25:28
>> With what I'm doing because we we got to
00:25:30
get better.
00:25:32
>> It's a heavy price to pay though for a a
00:25:35
career doing something you love with
00:25:36
with what you know now. Do you
00:25:38
>> [snorts]
00:25:38
>> um if someone came to you at 17, 18,
00:25:41
whatever age and said, "Hey, just want
00:25:42
you to know this is this is what's going
00:25:45
to happen. You're going to make the All
00:25:46
Blacks. you're going to have this
00:25:47
amazing career, but this this is the
00:25:49
price it's going to cost you. Would you
00:25:50
have done it?
00:25:53
>> Uh I was I was a at 17 18 I was a young
00:25:57
boy full of testosterone [snorts]
00:25:59
and I I probably would have done it. Um
00:26:03
you know, given the opportunity, would I
00:26:05
play rugby again right now? Um I'd say
00:26:08
I'd say probably would. I I you know I I
00:26:11
absolutely love what I did
00:26:14
>> you know and it you know gave me a life
00:26:16
that I got to have options and you know
00:26:19
I love that. Um it it took its toll. Um
00:26:24
you know we could all sit around in bed
00:26:27
all day not going outside thinking so we
00:26:30
don't get hurt and we live a long life
00:26:32
but you know is that really living?
00:26:35
I I definitely I went too far uh with my
00:26:38
injuries particularly to my head. I I
00:26:40
definitely went too far and and that's
00:26:42
that's where I think we need to get
00:26:43
better to make sure that that doesn't
00:26:45
happen again. And and and we and we can
00:26:47
like my understanding I'm not a
00:26:49
neurologist and but my understanding of
00:26:51
the brain if if we give it time to heal
00:26:53
that it it can do that. Um but we
00:26:55
certainly got to stop um people
00:26:59
going too far. like once enough is
00:27:02
enough is enough and and I probably push
00:27:04
those boundaries out too far.
00:27:07
>> Yeah. You mentioned before you're not
00:27:08
sure what the future brings, although to
00:27:10
be fair, none of us none of us do, but
00:27:12
um is is there like a dramatically
00:27:14
increased risk of dementia or I I think
00:27:18
[snorts]
00:27:18
I think probably I think there's some
00:27:20
research released by New Zealand Rugby
00:27:22
Union maybe a month ago about, you know,
00:27:25
they interviewed, you know, every rugby
00:27:28
player in the past they could find. And
00:27:30
I I think there is a couple of percent
00:27:32
chance
00:27:33
um that playing rugby particularly
00:27:36
professional rugby there's probably you
00:27:37
know a 3% chance that there is those
00:27:40
increases.
00:27:42
>> Um I I look back um you know 50 years
00:27:46
ago um the people people with dementia
00:27:50
now it's almost 50/50 between male and
00:27:52
female and and 50 years ago females
00:27:55
didn't play rugby. M
00:27:56
>> so um I'm sure possibly rugby has
00:27:59
something to do with it. I I I think I
00:28:02
like to think that it doesn't have
00:28:04
everything to do with it. Um that's the
00:28:07
way I see it. That's the way I got to
00:28:09
tell myself to see it. Um
00:28:11
>> so yeah, I I think I think in times, you
00:28:15
know, we we're probably going to find
00:28:16
out more about it and what to do and
00:28:18
what not to do with around dementia and
00:28:19
Alzheimer's and those sorts of things.
00:28:20
But does rugby play a part? It probably
00:28:24
plays a little part, but I you know I I
00:28:27
still think that what a a young male
00:28:32
gets in playing a team team sport
00:28:34
definitely outweighs the fact of of of
00:28:37
what could be injury whether it's your
00:28:39
army league or it's your head. I I
00:28:40
really think the benefits of team sport
00:28:42
for for our young kids definitely
00:28:44
outweighs uh injury risks. Hm. I
00:28:47
>> if a young player or the parent of a
00:28:49
young player uh came to you for advice,
00:28:52
what would you say to them about head
00:28:53
injuries?
00:28:54
>> I'd say rest. Uh it's important to to
00:28:58
rest post. Um if you if you just keep
00:29:00
going and getting my my little hits
00:29:03
became hits if you know what I mean.
00:29:05
Like um for not having a week off and
00:29:08
come back the next week get another
00:29:09
little hit and I get knocked out and
00:29:12
then I come back the next week and get
00:29:14
even a little hit. Like towards the end
00:29:16
some of the last couple were big but I
00:29:18
had some time off and the last few they
00:29:21
weren't very big hits and I was knocked
00:29:24
out. So, you know, that was just the
00:29:27
brain saying you need need to rest. Um,
00:29:30
you know, there there's some pretty good
00:29:31
protocols now that developed across all
00:29:33
sports in New Zealand. I think they were
00:29:34
announced maybe a month ago as well with
00:29:36
Dr. Steven Car leading the charge that
00:29:38
there's a 21-day return to play
00:29:40
protocol. If if you're feeling good, you
00:29:42
progress. If you don't feel good, you
00:29:45
regress back and and and you wait till
00:29:47
you get to where you're feeling well and
00:29:49
then you can start playing again is is
00:29:50
the safest way to do things these days.
00:29:52
So that's exciting that you know all
00:29:55
sports no matter what sport um if you
00:29:58
have been knocked out or a doctor senses
00:30:01
you have been knocked out then you have
00:30:03
a protocol to follow uh regardless of
00:30:05
who you are what sport. [snorts]
00:30:08
>> Yes. So Dr. Steven who you've mentioned
00:30:09
a couple of times it was ultimately him
00:30:11
that said bro you got to you got to give
00:30:13
it away. Did was there anyone else like
00:30:15
before that in your corner like your mom
00:30:17
your dad partner anyone that was like
00:30:20
Steve? Uh yeah,
00:30:22
>> not that you would have listened, I'm
00:30:23
sure. But
00:30:23
>> well, I think my partner at the time was
00:30:24
probably asking the questions like, you
00:30:26
know, this has been happening for a bit
00:30:29
now. Um but and Doc Car, you know, he he
00:30:32
just said to me in the end, I I I wasn't
00:30:35
I wasn't well post the last knock and I
00:30:38
I knew, you know, give it give it a
00:30:41
while and I'll come right and I'll be
00:30:42
able to play again. But, you know, Doc
00:30:44
said to me, he goes, I still remember,
00:30:46
he goes, mate, um, you know, chances
00:30:50
chances of you receiving another hit to
00:30:52
the head playing rugby are 100%. And,
00:30:55
you know, another one is going to make
00:30:57
you worse. And, you know, I listened to
00:30:59
him and I understood it, but I I I
00:31:02
felt that I was going to get better and
00:31:05
then I will worry about that when I get
00:31:07
better. But, I I was unwell for two
00:31:09
years. like not one day in those two
00:31:12
years did I ever think I could play
00:31:14
rugby because I was just I was so
00:31:16
unwell.
00:31:18
>> Um and then you know after 2 years
00:31:21
you're you're you're a dinosaur and and
00:31:23
and it was Yeah. But I I know now like I
00:31:26
do things that make sure I I look after
00:31:28
my head like I I don't do water skiing.
00:31:30
I I'm probably never going to go
00:31:32
snowboard skiing, you know. just I just
00:31:35
got to make sure that I don't do
00:31:37
anything silly and woke the head
00:31:38
unnecessarily because another one I mean
00:31:40
who knows.
00:31:44
>> Thanks for being so open about all this
00:31:45
stuff by the way.
00:31:46
>> No, we got to get better, right?
00:31:47
>> Yeah. Yeah, we do. We do. What needs to
00:31:50
change?
00:31:52
>> What are some easy quick fixes? Um I
00:31:55
listen for me and and I've always I've
00:31:58
I've said this for a long time is that
00:32:00
you know in the professional game of
00:32:01
rugby um you have your team doctor on
00:32:04
the sideline you have the opposition
00:32:06
team doctor on the sideline and two
00:32:08
physios from each and a doctor in the
00:32:10
grand stand doing has you know
00:32:13
in a game I I was 8 seconds away from
00:32:15
having the best medical people around me
00:32:18
you know they'd run onto the field it
00:32:20
was I was professional game we're very
00:32:22
well looked after it's it's the amateur
00:32:24
game and the school boy game where there
00:32:26
isn't a doctor. Uh sometimes there's a
00:32:28
physio, not not all the time. And we're
00:32:30
leaving some, you know, some decisions
00:32:33
left up to parents, um parent coaches,
00:32:36
student coaches, and and people that are
00:32:39
not really in a position to really
00:32:41
assess what's going on. And I I I you
00:32:44
know I think in those moments in that
00:32:47
amateur game not just rugby or league
00:32:49
you know any any any game in those
00:32:51
moments we we need to get better
00:32:56
>> cuz that's a large majority of of people
00:32:58
right like
00:32:58
>> absolutely
00:32:59
>> there's a very small percentage of
00:33:01
people play professional rugby or league
00:33:02
or or hockey or whatever it is um you
00:33:06
know equestrian riding there's a very
00:33:08
small percentage and it's the larger
00:33:10
majority of the people that probably
00:33:12
don't have the access they should have
00:33:13
to to a doctor when they need it.
00:33:16
>> That leads us to the portable brain
00:33:18
scanner.
00:33:20
So, how did you get involved with um
00:33:21
MedTech Lab Groups?
00:33:23
>> Um,
00:33:23
>> how did this uh relationship come about?
00:33:25
>> Um, yep. So, they they reached out to me
00:33:27
a little while ago uh about this device
00:33:30
um that [snorts]
00:33:31
um essentially can it's a portable brain
00:33:34
scanner. Uh there's no baseline test or
00:33:37
anything like that. And it um assesses
00:33:40
uh and it detects concussion in in 2
00:33:43
minutes. And I initially so that's open.
00:33:45
I left that open now.
00:33:47
>> Jeez, it's a tiny bit of cut, isn't it?
00:33:48
>> Yeah, it's tiny. So initially I thought,
00:33:51
you know, this is actually too good to
00:33:52
be true. And um you know, I I rang up
00:33:55
car and had a doc about it and we had a
00:33:57
couple of zoom meetings and and that's
00:34:00
essentially it. And when you plug it in,
00:34:03
there's just two little LED LED lights
00:34:05
on the inside that flash um for a minute
00:34:08
of the 2 minutes and [snorts] it reads
00:34:10
the brain. So it takes 400,000 data
00:34:12
points in those two minutes and then
00:34:14
uses an AI to to say yes or no you're a
00:34:17
concuss or not.
00:34:19
>> How can how can clubs or organizations,
00:34:23
schools, whoever get hold of one of
00:34:24
these?
00:34:25
>> Um we we we're working very very hard in
00:34:28
the back at the moment, but they can go
00:34:29
to neuroche.co.nz NZ um or MedTech Lab
00:34:33
Groups and um get hold of us. Uh give me
00:34:37
a call um
00:34:40
um even um on Facebook, social media or
00:34:43
whatever. Just drop us a message and we
00:34:45
we'll see what we can do. I've had
00:34:46
[snorts] some really promising meetings
00:34:48
over the last couple of weeks about, you
00:34:50
know, some clubs wanting it, some rugby
00:34:51
clubs wanting it, some um medical people
00:34:53
wanting it. uh rugby league, we're
00:34:55
talking rugby league, we're talking to
00:34:56
New Zealand Rugby Foundation, you know,
00:35:01
there's sort of essentially no one that
00:35:03
says it's a bad idea. Um there's some
00:35:06
people that are possibly a little bit
00:35:08
confused about the research, but I'm no
00:35:11
doctor.
00:35:12
>> You know, it's it's uh it's a medical
00:35:14
device cleared um by the FDA in America.
00:35:18
Uh and that clearance says that it can
00:35:20
be used here. So, um,
00:35:24
>> it's cheap and accurate. It's worth a
00:35:26
shot.
00:35:26
>> It's worth it's, you know, it can be
00:35:29
used, it can be used alongside a doctor
00:35:31
in a hia to give him another um, another
00:35:35
string to the bow essentially for a
00:35:37
doctor to determine if someone's being
00:35:38
concussed or not.
00:35:40
On the sports field in an amateur rugby
00:35:42
game, there there isn't a doctor on the
00:35:44
sideline and and you know, it's it's six
00:35:46
at um, 86% success rate. Wow.
00:35:49
>> And that's that's light years above a
00:35:52
parent coach on the sideline
00:35:55
>> and and that's that's where we're going
00:35:57
to say the second the secondary hit you
00:36:01
know during a match uh can be fatal. M I
00:36:04
know of a there was a young boy I think
00:36:06
playing rugby league in Australia last
00:36:07
year died u was put back on the field
00:36:09
and got a second one and you know that's
00:36:12
that's an area where you know I feel um
00:36:16
again I'm not a doctor but I feel this
00:36:18
is a device that right now is is better
00:36:20
than anything out there. Um there's talk
00:36:22
around use of the mouthguards. Um the
00:36:25
the mouthguards is great technology
00:36:28
um for detecting G-forces. Um but
00:36:31
unfortunately G forces aren't really
00:36:33
linked to concussion. So
00:36:35
>> you know they can be set at a at a at a
00:36:38
G-force rate. Uh a player can receive
00:36:42
uh a hit to the head above that G-force
00:36:43
and not be knocked out. And then the
00:36:45
same player can receive a hit below that
00:36:47
G-force and be knocked out. So, there's
00:36:49
no real link with the G-forces uh to
00:36:52
concussion where where this um it's not
00:36:55
stopping a concussion. Uh it's just
00:36:58
going to tell you yes or no and and
00:37:00
hopefully help people um get their brain
00:37:04
to rest due to the protocols um what
00:37:07
they need to do so there isn't a
00:37:09
long-term injury. [sighs]
00:37:12
>> I mean, this has been a fairly there's
00:37:14
been some fairly bleak and crunchy
00:37:15
moments in this half hour that we've
00:37:16
been chatting so far. So, if it can save
00:37:18
anyone from going through what you've
00:37:20
been through, then I think that's a good
00:37:21
thing.
00:37:22
>> Yeah. And and that's what it's about,
00:37:23
right? Like that's what it's about. I
00:37:25
And again, I still I love team sport. I
00:37:28
love kids team sports. And the benefits
00:37:30
of them playing them shouldn't
00:37:32
definitely outweigh an injury. And now
00:37:35
we have a device that that can help a
00:37:37
brain uh and make sure that brain um
00:37:41
gets the rest it needs there. So three
00:37:44
35,000 brain injuries in New Zealand a
00:37:47
year. Um but they reckon up to up to 50%
00:37:51
go undetected, undiagnosed.
00:37:54
>> So maybe the same amount again. Um
00:37:56
because people go to an A&E, sit there
00:37:59
for 6 hours,
00:38:02
decide I feel actually don't feel too
00:38:04
bad now and go home. Like there's
00:38:05
there's there's a there's a lot we can
00:38:07
do in the head space.
00:38:09
This [snorts] is a string to the bow to
00:38:10
to to help um sort that issue out.
00:38:14
>> Yeah. Good on you and thanks again for
00:38:17
sharing that stuff. Is it um like
00:38:19
emotionally exhausting for you to talk
00:38:20
about this stuff?
00:38:22
>> Um takes you back to some dark places.
00:38:24
>> Yeah, I I don't like talking about my
00:38:27
dark places. Um but you know, it
00:38:30
happened.
00:38:31
Um, what's important [snorts] is I
00:38:34
reached out to my doctor and I and I got
00:38:36
some help and you know we found a
00:38:39
solution that worked for me and you know
00:38:41
I wish that that solution will work for
00:38:43
everyone but unfortunately it doesn't
00:38:44
but [gasps]
00:38:46
>> um you know it still can work for people
00:38:49
but you know I think the the biggest
00:38:51
lesson learned um I do some work with
00:38:53
Movember as well is that you know
00:38:55
particularly males in this country we
00:38:57
it's all right to ask for help and um
00:39:00
whatever it is what whatever it is, we
00:39:03
we need to get better at asking for
00:39:04
help. We need to get better at going to
00:39:05
see a doctor cuz for a long time I I
00:39:08
didn't. And I I suffered immensely. And
00:39:10
I got into a really dark hole. And then,
00:39:13
you know, we we we have to be able to
00:39:15
ask to help. And you know, I hope my
00:39:18
boys watch this and
00:39:19
>> understand that.
00:39:20
>> Yeah.
00:39:22
>> Oh, congrats, mate. I'm sure they'd be
00:39:24
so proud. I've only just met you. I'm
00:39:26
proud of you. Yeah. I think it's great.
00:39:28
It's really powerful stuff. And I I
00:39:30
intentionally wanted to talk about that
00:39:32
stuff in the podcast first before we get
00:39:33
to the fun stuff cuz I feel like it's
00:39:35
the most important.
00:39:35
>> Yeah.
00:39:36
>> Good.
00:39:36
>> All right. So, let's go all the way
00:39:38
back. So, where are you from? Bog Bo.
00:39:42
Where is that? New South Wales
00:39:43
somewhere.
00:39:43
>> North northwest New South Wales. So,
00:39:45
between u Ganadar and Aar um out uh the
00:39:48
other side of the great divide.
00:39:51
>> Yeah. Great little town. Mom and dad are
00:39:52
still there. Um it's a little little
00:39:55
town, but um I have I have good memories
00:39:57
growing up in Bogra. Mhm. How did you
00:39:59
end up playing rugby? Rugby is a nothing
00:40:01
sport in Australia. They don't even care
00:40:02
about it.
00:40:03
>> Yeah, it is. I I didn't
00:40:04
>> Why do you play hockey or Aussie rules
00:40:05
or
00:40:06
>> I play a bit of league and a bit of
00:40:07
soccer uh growing up and then I I was
00:40:10
lucky enough to head to a [gasps]
00:40:13
private school in Sydney for my
00:40:15
secondary schooling and they only had
00:40:16
rugby. So, initially I I put my name
00:40:19
down uh to play soccer and then a few
00:40:20
mates were like, you know, what's what's
00:40:22
going on here? So, I I I'm proud to say
00:40:26
that I went to St. Joseph's College and
00:40:29
I put my name down for soccer and before
00:40:31
the first training I decided I better
00:40:33
give this rugby a go and that's how I
00:40:35
started playing rugby.
00:40:36
>> Were you naturally you you small for
00:40:38
your small for your age? Were you were
00:40:41
you
00:40:41
>> I was tiny but I was fast and I I I I
00:40:44
you know I could play all right. I was a
00:40:47
bit of an athlete. Uh but I wasn't I was
00:40:49
tiny. I was always tiny and uh you know
00:40:52
I my first year uh played on the wing
00:40:55
and then I moved into like 10 and 12 and
00:40:58
played a few years in the in the lower
00:41:00
grades and [snorts] then moved to
00:41:02
halfback. I was probably about 16 before
00:41:04
I started playing uh at halfback and
00:41:06
then um and then yeah I just started
00:41:10
playing rugby but I I you know I was
00:41:11
like you know I was at a boarding school
00:41:12
with a thousand borders and you know I I
00:41:15
grew up with my mates and all my mates
00:41:17
played rugby and that's that's just what
00:41:19
I wanted to do and that that's how I got
00:41:20
like I didn't ever think I was going to
00:41:22
be a professional athlete at it. I just
00:41:24
I just love playing with my mates on the
00:41:25
weekend and we'd have a few beers after
00:41:27
the game. And
00:41:29
I actually thought it was a cool way to
00:41:31
to meet girls as well, which you know
00:41:33
that's why it probably wasn't [laughter]
00:41:35
>> and and that's and that's and that's
00:41:37
what it was for me. Like it was a social
00:41:40
it was a social event for me playing
00:41:41
rugby and yeah I loved it.
00:41:43
>> So you leave [clears throat] school then
00:41:44
you become like an apprentice
00:41:46
electrician.
00:41:46
>> Yeah, I was electrician for for 4 years.
00:41:48
Um
00:41:50
and yeah, loved that. worked hard,
00:41:52
worked incredibly hard and we had a good
00:41:53
crew and had a lot of fun. Um, my my
00:41:57
coach, my my boss was a coach at West
00:42:00
Harour. So, I end up moving over to West
00:42:02
Harour in Sydney and played some grade
00:42:04
great grade footy there and just had a
00:42:06
great time with with the older boys. I
00:42:07
was young. I didn't [snorts] you
00:42:09
normally play a couple of years of Colts
00:42:10
in Australia, which is under 21s back
00:42:12
then and uh I only had one year and then
00:42:14
went and played grade with my boss. He
00:42:15
was coaching fifth grade. So I actually
00:42:18
started out in fifth grade uh West
00:42:20
Harour for for a year or so and then
00:42:22
>> end up playing first grade and uh then
00:42:25
got a a bit of a bait to to come over
00:42:27
here and stand in uh at Oakland for MPC
00:42:30
for a year for a year for for 3 months
00:42:33
was
00:42:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Why I was going to ask you
00:42:35
that like why how did you end up in New
00:42:36
Zealand? Because you were playing a
00:42:37
rider you so you played sevens for
00:42:39
Australia and under 21s for Australia.
00:42:41
played under 21s and then so my coach at
00:42:44
West Harour, Kelvin Frankton, played for
00:42:46
Oakland on the wing and through Joe
00:42:48
Stanley um Oakland were looking for a
00:42:50
halfback and and between those two. So I
00:42:52
came over with uh Graeme Henry uh played
00:42:55
a trial match on number two at Eden Park
00:42:57
and then he said, "Yeah, come back. We
00:42:59
need we need some halfback uh to cover
00:43:02
cuz um Junior Tanu is going to be away
00:43:04
with the All Blacks." So I went home for
00:43:06
for a couple of weeks and then came back
00:43:08
for 3 months for the NPC campaign and um
00:43:11
wow I just like rugby in Australia
00:43:14
wasn't big but I just remember that
00:43:15
first that was 98 um it was just um it
00:43:20
was just you know 40,000 people to a
00:43:22
trial match at Eden Park
00:43:24
>> uh was just like nothing I I I had ever
00:43:27
even even ever experienced and it was
00:43:29
was incredible and I end up you know
00:43:32
having a re Oakland didn't play well 98
00:43:34
8 MPC. Um, but I had a I guess a
00:43:37
reasonable um few games and the Blues
00:43:40
asked me to hang around the following
00:43:41
year for 99.
00:43:43
>> So, I'm trying to get the timeline
00:43:45
right. Sue Graham got you over here. Is
00:43:47
that about the same time as he [ __ ]
00:43:48
off to Wales?
00:43:48
>> The day the day I landed. So, I got
00:43:50
picked up at the airport. I got picked
00:43:52
up at the airport, chucked in a car,
00:43:54
driven to suburbs rugby training and on
00:43:58
the [snorts] way to training. So, I land
00:43:59
I think I landed around 5 on the way to
00:44:01
training. Uh um the guy Guy Smith his
00:44:05
name was he goes do you have you heard
00:44:06
the news and I was like no and he goes
00:44:08
the front page of the paper today and I
00:44:09
was like I I've been on a flight I have
00:44:10
no idea and he's like Graeme Graeme's
00:44:12
going to Wales that day I landed Graeme
00:44:14
announced he was going to Wales.
00:44:16
[laughter and gasps]
00:44:16
>> So he lures you over here and then he's
00:44:18
off.
00:44:19
>> So I literally thought I thought I'm
00:44:22
probably going to go home tomorrow.
00:44:23
That's what I thought. I honestly
00:44:24
thought
00:44:26
>> So did you was part of your motivation
00:44:27
for coming to New Zealand because um
00:44:29
George Grian was like the the [snorts]
00:44:31
the big dog in Australian um halfback at
00:44:34
the time. Did you think you just not
00:44:36
didn't have a chance?
00:44:37
>> So this is this is the yarn, right? This
00:44:39
is a good yarn. So I played NPC. They
00:44:42
said hang around for the blues. Uh and
00:44:44
then I went home and they said um
00:44:46
Australian 7 said you want to come to
00:44:48
Dubai and I was like hell yeah I'll go
00:44:49
to Dubai. And [snorts] had a good time.
00:44:52
came home and then Eddie Jones rang up
00:44:53
and said um he was the coach of the
00:44:56
Brumies and he said we we want you to
00:44:57
come down to the Brumies and so I had a
00:45:01
contract with the Brumies you know to
00:45:03
sit on the bench behind George Grian or
00:45:05
I had an offer in New Zealand so I
00:45:06
reached out to someone on u my boss knew
00:45:08
someone on the Australian Rugby Union
00:45:11
board so we asked him you know what do I
00:45:13
do I'm a young kid do I sit on the bench
00:45:16
behind George or go to New Zealand get
00:45:17
and they said go go and get some
00:45:18
experience go you're in the same
00:45:20
competition go so I told uh Eddie Jones
00:45:22
that I'm going to Oakuckland and he
00:45:24
abused me on the phone and I was like 22
00:45:27
and I was like you know that's anyway
00:45:29
whatever Eddie and I came to New Zealand
00:45:32
and within a month of me being here
00:45:35
Australian rugby announced you had to be
00:45:37
playing in Australia to be eligible for
00:45:38
the wabies. [sighs and gasps]
00:45:40
>> So in a month Eddie's obviously gone to
00:45:43
them and said whatever and then they
00:45:45
said you got to be playing here and that
00:45:47
really disappointed me. uh that really
00:45:51
um disappointed me. And then New Zealand
00:45:52
Rugby through through my manager said um
00:45:57
you know if you want to make yourself
00:45:58
eligible here um we we'd love we'd love
00:46:01
for you to do that. We're not going to
00:46:02
promise you anything but you know if you
00:46:04
want to have a crack here in New Zealand
00:46:05
then then um
00:46:08
then we want you to do that. So I I
00:46:10
signed I signed a clause to make myself
00:46:12
eligible for New Zealand but I had to
00:46:14
stand down from international rugby for
00:46:16
3 years.
00:46:17
um that wasn't a problem because I
00:46:19
wasn't good enough to be uh selected or
00:46:23
eligible at that time. So I I just said
00:46:26
yeah okay I made myself eligible for New
00:46:28
Zealand and and worked incredibly hard
00:46:30
for for three three three years and um
00:46:34
you know was lucky enough to be selected
00:46:35
at the end of that time which was which
00:46:37
was pretty cool.
00:46:38
>> What does an abusive phone call from
00:46:40
Eddie Jones look like? I just he said
00:46:41
[laughter] he he actually said he goes
00:46:43
you're turning your back on Australian
00:46:44
rugby and and I was like man you just
00:46:47
told me to go.
00:46:49
So I just, you know what? So that was me
00:46:52
being stubborn and being competitive,
00:46:54
digging my toes in and saying, you know,
00:46:56
>> if you I can understand you'd feel, you
00:46:58
feel really sort of like, I don't know,
00:47:00
hurt, betray.
00:47:01
>> I was burnt. I felt like they burnt me,
00:47:03
>> honestly. And and I was like, you know
00:47:05
what? [ __ ] you. And I I signed the
00:47:08
contract to be eligible here, which, you
00:47:10
know, I didn't Yeah. I didn't I I I had
00:47:13
an uncle here and an auntie, and that's
00:47:15
essentially the only people I knew. Um,
00:47:18
and I was like, you know what, let's
00:47:20
let's give it a go. I was so thankful
00:47:23
that I had an opportunity that I was
00:47:25
just like, yeah, the, you know, these
00:47:28
people have been loyal to me. I want to
00:47:30
be loyal to them and and let's get into
00:47:32
it. And I but I absolutely loved it.
00:47:34
>> Yeah. And it was the the beginning of um
00:47:36
an incredible chapter of rugby for
00:47:38
Oakland from 1998 to 2007. Uh 78 games
00:47:41
for Oakland and 70 games for the Blues.
00:47:44
And this was um you were going in there.
00:47:46
It was a stacked team, right?
00:47:48
>> Oh, we were. Yeah.
00:47:49
>> You were playing with Sir Michael Jones.
00:47:50
>> Yeah. So, Michael 99 um Ice played
00:47:55
Michael Sir Michael played. So, I played
00:47:58
uh in his last game. I've got a jumper
00:48:00
at home somewhere with with his last
00:48:02
game. Um but you know, you know, one of
00:48:05
the first days of training, he comes up
00:48:07
to me. I was just a little Aussie kid
00:48:08
and he and he said to me, he looked me
00:48:11
in the eyes and he goes, "Uh, how do you
00:48:13
want to be remembered as an Oakland
00:48:14
rugby player?" And I I said, "Oh, I
00:48:16
guess tough. Um, I guess you know, not
00:48:21
not u backing down from anything." And
00:48:24
he goes, "Do that every day and you'll
00:48:26
be fine." And I was like, "Wow."
00:48:30
>> And and and I was like, "You know what?
00:48:32
Let's do that every day." And then and
00:48:34
that's what it was. And you know,
00:48:36
probably the greatest advice I I ever
00:48:38
heard from a guy that I on the one of
00:48:41
our very first meetings and he just
00:48:42
looked me in the eyes and said, "And
00:48:44
that's and that's what it is." You know,
00:48:48
>> what a memory.
00:48:48
>> What incredible incredible and that's
00:48:51
the man he is, right? And he's man, he's
00:48:54
tough. He was a tough boy. I think the
00:48:56
final in 99 he um
00:49:00
within the first couple of m uh minutes
00:49:02
he he cut his arm like open like
00:49:05
open open the doctor went off and
00:49:07
[snorts] he was going to go to hospital
00:49:09
and then the the substitute got injured
00:49:11
and they messaged Doc from the coaches
00:49:14
box and said we've got an injury um we
00:49:16
got to get Michael back on and he he he
00:49:19
like 60 stitches or something in his arm
00:49:21
and the doc was like he can't like he
00:49:24
I've got to take him to hospital and get
00:49:25
this is a serious warning. We got to get
00:49:27
it closed up. And Michael Jones just
00:49:30
tape it up, dog. And he taped it up and
00:49:32
he went back on and finished the game.
00:49:35
Like that's it. That was his last game
00:49:37
at Eden Park in a final NPC um in 99.
00:49:41
>> Is that what made him the goat? He was
00:49:43
just really tough. He's just a tough
00:49:44
tough tough human being and like big and
00:49:48
ripped muscles and he was just, you
00:49:51
know, straight as straight and just he
00:49:54
was everything was based on just being
00:49:57
tougher and harder than than than the
00:49:59
next person.
00:50:00
>> But the softest guy in person as well,
00:50:02
like just a complete marshmallow.
00:50:04
>> I know, right? You just there's just
00:50:06
chalk and cheese between he crossed that
00:50:08
line and he was he was he was an animal.
00:50:09
like he could do a prone bridge for like
00:50:12
7 minutes or something and back in those
00:50:14
days like you know
00:50:16
>> he's just mentally just on just tough
00:50:21
>> cuz you hear about other competitors
00:50:22
like the other MJ Michael Jordan and
00:50:24
apparently he's he's you know I guess
00:50:26
some people depending on who you speak
00:50:28
to call him a bully off the court um
00:50:30
because his expectation was just that
00:50:32
high but no one you you won't find
00:50:34
anyone anywhere in the world that will
00:50:36
say a bad word about the Iceman. No, no,
00:50:39
just a [snorts] just a and a competitor
00:50:41
as well. And just, you know, there's a
00:50:43
lot of people that say after his knee
00:50:45
injury like he was lucky to walk again
00:50:48
and yet got back to where he was.
00:50:51
>> Like tough man.
00:50:53
>> What about the Brooks? Were they both
00:50:54
there? Robin and Zinny.
00:50:55
>> Uh I miss Zinny. I miss Zinny by um a
00:50:59
couple of months really. So my first
00:51:01
year 98, Zinny had announced at the end
00:51:03
of the blue season in 98 that he was
00:51:05
heading away. So, but played a lot with
00:51:07
Robin. Actually caught up with him last
00:51:08
weekend at a at a Maris function. Um,
00:51:11
great man. Again, incredibly tough. I
00:51:15
remember one day at training I I had the
00:51:16
ball. Um, I was just a training like
00:51:19
semi- opposed opposed and I was on the
00:51:21
bottom of a rock and I grabbed the ball
00:51:23
and he he was he just put his foot on my
00:51:25
chest and squeezed down. I'm on my back
00:51:28
and I looked him in the eye and I was
00:51:29
like I was like, you know, whatever. And
00:51:31
I hung on to the ball and he just put
00:51:33
his foot down a bit lower and I was
00:51:34
like, "Holy shit." And I looked at him
00:51:37
and I was like, "I'm" and then he went a
00:51:39
bit lower and I he just looked at me and
00:51:42
I and [snorts] then I was like like I
00:51:44
honestly thought he was going to cave my
00:51:45
chest in and he wouldn't have even
00:51:46
blinked an eyelid and I'm on his own
00:51:48
team [laughter] and I and I let the ball
00:51:50
go and he and he looked at me and took
00:51:51
his foot off my chest and was like
00:51:53
that's all he had to do. You know, they
00:51:55
just [laughter] he would have caved my
00:51:57
chest in like without even blinking.
00:52:00
You're his teammate. This is a training
00:52:02
session. Imagine what he's like with
00:52:03
opponents in a real life game.
00:52:06
>> They were just incredibly tough men back
00:52:08
then
00:52:09
>> and don't dare show weakness. Even,
00:52:14
>> you know, you can run and run and run
00:52:15
and run and and run and you don't bend
00:52:17
over and you don't let your hands touch
00:52:19
your knees and you don't put your hands
00:52:21
on your head. you just you just be
00:52:25
>> tough and you be silent about about
00:52:29
being tough and don't show weakness.
00:52:31
>> So this is sort of where you I suppose
00:52:33
in a way cut your teeth or serve your
00:52:35
apprenticeship in New Zealand rugby. So
00:52:36
it's it's understandable that when when
00:52:39
you got to the big stage like when you
00:52:40
had a head knock you know you weren't
00:52:42
going to be like actually I want to sit
00:52:43
the second half out. I've got double
00:52:44
vision or I'm I'm a bit blurry. Um I
00:52:48
suppose yeah this sort of explains why
00:52:51
you wanted to keep on going and weren't
00:52:52
prepared to show any weakness.
00:52:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. Shake it off. Um you know
00:52:57
broken bones, broken whatever you just
00:53:00
you you shake it off and and you get on
00:53:01
with it
00:53:02
>> and you know right or wrongly that's
00:53:05
what it was.
00:53:06
>> Yeah. Well it's just the environment at
00:53:08
the time.
00:53:09
>> Yeah.
00:53:09
>> So then um your all black debut uh
00:53:11
November the 9th 2002 um against
00:53:14
England.
00:53:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. What are your recollections
00:53:18
of that? First of all, what are your
00:53:19
recollections of making the All Blacks?
00:53:20
Ah,
00:53:21
>> TV announcement, radio announcement,
00:53:23
phone call. I
00:53:23
>> I told this story like two days ago on
00:53:25
Tuesday. I had some friends over from
00:53:26
Aussie and we're out to wi. So [snorts]
00:53:29
90 uh 2002 we won the MPC against uh the
00:53:33
Mulus in Wetto. We bust back. Uh
00:53:36
everyone having a great time having
00:53:38
beers. The next day, we jump on a ferry,
00:53:41
go out to Wiki, and um we're in uh one
00:53:46
of the little bays. Uh there's a house.
00:53:48
It's someone's farm. I won't say who it
00:53:51
was. And they put a marquee up on the
00:53:53
beach. So, it's just the team. We're
00:53:55
just there and partners and some kids.
00:53:57
And we're everyone's [snorts] having
00:53:58
beer still and we're having a great
00:54:00
time. And there's a little marquee on
00:54:02
the beach. They run down an extension
00:54:04
lead like maybe maybe 200 m of extension
00:54:06
lead and plug in a little radio to
00:54:07
listen to the all black naming at 12:00
00:54:10
[snorts] and I I I I remember it vividly
00:54:13
was standing around listening and they
00:54:15
started naming the team and um they said
00:54:17
Daniel Brad and it was Brady was just a
00:54:20
a young kid, you know, and I was
00:54:22
standing right next to him and I was
00:54:23
like, "Oh my god, Brady." It was like
00:54:25
[snorts] such a moment and then I heard
00:54:28
Steve Divine and I I I like I had to
00:54:31
look around. I was like, "Was that me?"
00:54:32
And they're like, "Yeah." And I I was It
00:54:35
was just wow. Like instantly a thousand
00:54:39
emotions. Um, yeah, I was I'd had a few
00:54:42
beers over that last 12 hours and
00:54:45
instantly sober [laughter]
00:54:47
and and then within minutes just the the
00:54:50
expectation of now being um an All Black
00:54:54
u being named as an All Black to you
00:54:56
know, you just felt instantly
00:54:59
um you got to you got to do better, you
00:55:02
got to be better and um and that's I
00:55:05
will remember that every day like it was
00:55:08
it was so clear but there was probably
00:55:10
about seven of us named in that team. I
00:55:12
think Ally Williams, Brad Ma, um Douggee
00:55:16
was already named. Um Douglet,
00:55:18
>> Douggee Howlet was already named. So
00:55:19
there's quite a few newbies. Uh Kevin
00:55:21
Mu. So
00:55:23
>> So it was quite it was quite a big
00:55:25
moment for a lot of us there and that
00:55:27
and that's how we found out. And I would
00:55:28
I remember ringing mom and dad and
00:55:30
telling them and
00:55:32
>> yeah, it was it was emotional and
00:55:34
touching and
00:55:35
>> but then there was also the pressure,
00:55:36
right? Right. It's it's
00:55:38
>> Well, that's when when it starts.
00:55:39
>> It's time to go to work, you know. It's
00:55:41
literally So, we assembled the next day
00:55:42
and uh I think we had a day in
00:55:44
Oakuckland and jumped on a plane to to
00:55:46
London. When I landed, I remember we
00:55:50
landed in uh Heathrow and then Robbie
00:55:53
Deans, John Mitchell, the manager, just
00:55:55
about everyone in management rushed me
00:55:58
and they started asking about my
00:56:00
eligibility. They're like, "Are you
00:56:02
eligible?" And I was like, "Do you do
00:56:04
you have a grandfather?" And I was like,
00:56:06
"No, but I've signed I've signed a
00:56:08
contract to say that I am eligible." Um,
00:56:11
and and then they were on their phones
00:56:13
and they were and I was like, "What's
00:56:14
going on?" They're like, "Oh, nothing,
00:56:16
nothing, nothing." And and there was
00:56:18
there was an eligibility issue that I um
00:56:22
cuz they changed the rules post me
00:56:23
signing. They had changed the rules that
00:56:25
saying that if you played sevens for
00:56:26
another country that you were then not
00:56:28
eligible,
00:56:30
respectively. Um, so anyway, I know I
00:56:34
was sheltered from a lot of it, but I
00:56:36
know there was um there was a major I
00:56:38
think there was a court case, a court
00:56:40
hearing like on the Wednesday to
00:56:42
determine whether I was eligible or not.
00:56:45
So I I knew there was something going
00:56:47
on. I knew there was an eligible issue
00:56:48
cuz I I'd asked a lot of questions and
00:56:51
gave my answers. And uh they didn't name
00:56:54
the team. They delayed the naming of the
00:56:56
team till they found the decision. And I
00:56:57
I think in the end they the argument was
00:57:00
it was sevens is a different game to
00:57:01
15s.
00:57:03
Um and
00:57:04
>> so in argued argued you went on a
00:57:07
technicality or something.
00:57:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
00:57:10
Good.
00:57:10
>> But but also at that tournament like um
00:57:13
during sevens at those times if there
00:57:15
was an injury you could play for another
00:57:16
team in the tournament. So if your team
00:57:18
was knocked out, so say Australia was
00:57:20
knocked out and the All Blacks are still
00:57:22
in and the All Blacks got an injury,
00:57:24
they they could pick someone who wasn't
00:57:26
injured to fill in.
00:57:27
>> That's so random.
00:57:28
>> Yeah. Yet then they're saying you've
00:57:30
played for that team, you're not
00:57:31
eligible. Like it it was actually um so
00:57:33
I think
00:57:34
>> um legally I think that's why I got off
00:57:37
and why I was selected.
00:57:39
>> But I was like it was
00:57:41
>> I remember going for a walk in London by
00:57:42
myself going, you know, I know
00:57:45
something's going down. I I didn't
00:57:46
really get to the the degree of what it
00:57:48
was going down, but I I thought I might
00:57:50
be going home. I knew there was another
00:57:51
halfback at LA waiting for the decision
00:57:55
as well.
00:57:56
>> Yeah. Who were the other halfbacks at
00:57:57
the time? Was that was it Marshall or
00:57:59
Byron Keller?
00:58:00
>> Uh Marshall. Marshall I think Keller was
00:58:02
injured maybe and Marshall they give him
00:58:05
the end of season tour off. So on that
00:58:07
on that tour it was me and Denny Lee
00:58:11
um on that tour. Um, but I know Jason
00:58:15
Spice, I've spoken to Spicy since he
00:58:18
they sent him to LA um because they
00:58:20
didn't know the outcome,
00:58:22
>> right?
00:58:22
>> Because then he used to have two
00:58:23
halfbacks.
00:58:25
>> So, there wasn't an option. So, uh,
00:58:28
Spicy was in LA at the airport waiting
00:58:30
to see what the decision was. If if it
00:58:33
was a no for me to play, then they were
00:58:35
going to get him to London to to play.
00:58:38
>> Wow. if it was um if it was a yes and
00:58:41
then he's he got sent home essentially.
00:58:45
>> There's a lot that seemed to go into
00:58:46
your favor.
00:58:46
>> That was a big that was a big week. Like
00:58:48
it was
00:58:49
>> stressful.
00:58:50
>> Yeah, it was a big week. It was it was a
00:58:52
big week and you know pressure from
00:58:54
every every avenue and um yeah and then
00:58:58
this daunting Twickenham Stadium at the
00:59:00
end of it to a really good English team
00:59:03
um at the end of the week. There was
00:59:04
there was a lot of
00:59:06
uh preparation was was was it was a
00:59:09
tough week to prepare.
00:59:11
>> Yeah, that's a daunting prospect for
00:59:13
your first test. You know, you'd like to
00:59:14
ease into it with a game against Fiji or
00:59:17
[laughter]
00:59:17
>> Yeah.
00:59:18
>> Namibia maybe or I don't know, but
00:59:20
England's a big deal.
00:59:22
>> Yeah, especially at Twickenham. And uh
00:59:24
you know, I remember I remember the
00:59:26
anthems. I I actually, this is hard to
00:59:29
believe, but I burnt a disc um traveling
00:59:32
to London and I burnt a disc that had
00:59:34
the national anthem and the hacker on
00:59:35
it. Like I I I knew I would be watched
00:59:39
and I knew I knew I couldn't mess it up.
00:59:42
So I
00:59:43
>> Oh, even more so because of your
00:59:45
Australianness.
00:59:46
>> Yeah. And I I just didn't want to like
00:59:48
my whole life I just I don't want to be
00:59:49
the weak link and I just didn't want to
00:59:51
ever let anyone down in that
00:59:53
environment. So I I burnt a disc and I
00:59:57
was at the airport and I was buying a
00:59:59
discman so I could put it on the plane
01:00:01
and Jonah came up to me. Jonah was in
01:00:02
the team and he's like what are you
01:00:03
doing? I said I need a discman. I got
01:00:05
got to listen to some music on the way
01:00:07
over and he's like no. He's like have
01:00:09
mine. I was like no no no I I need one.
01:00:11
So I'm just going to buy. He said no
01:00:12
just just borrow mine. And I was like no
01:00:14
no I'm going to borrow borrow it. I
01:00:16
literally I have heaps of them. Just
01:00:19
borrow it. Don't buy it. Definitely
01:00:20
don't buy. Just borrow. I said all
01:00:21
right. So Johnny Tony gave me his his
01:00:23
Dicksman on the plane and I listened to
01:00:26
that all the whole way over to the to so
01:00:28
we stopped in LA and then when he throw
01:00:30
I just burnt batteries out both times
01:00:33
listening to it and then um yeah I went
01:00:36
to see Jonah in his room I said Jonah
01:00:38
what you he's like mate just keep it
01:00:39
he's already got another one and um that
01:00:42
was the that was the generosity of the
01:00:44
big man he was he was a he was a great
01:00:47
human being
01:00:48
>> that is a great name drop that is the
01:00:50
beast I I've read so many stories about
01:00:52
Jonah like that. Like um they won't meet
01:00:54
I stop in a Harvey Norman or I suppose
01:00:56
it was like a Celectrics or whatever at
01:00:57
the time and buy like a what was it like
01:00:59
a boom box for the team bus and then
01:01:01
just give it to hotel staff or leave it
01:01:03
in his room.
01:01:03
>> Oh, he's the most generous it is. I like
01:01:06
I knew Jonah was big. I played I played
01:01:09
super rugby against him. I never played
01:01:11
with him. He he'd moved to Wellington by
01:01:13
the time I got over here and played for
01:01:15
counties MPC. I only ever played against
01:01:17
them and I knew he was huge but I had no
01:01:20
idea how big he was until I got to to
01:01:23
Europe the week we had in Paris.
01:01:25
>> Um it was off the recctor scale like
01:01:28
>> oh how big he is in terms of his um
01:01:30
celebrity status.
01:01:31
>> He he couldn't go anywhere like like he
01:01:34
was a big name here but like
01:01:36
internationally like in in that
01:01:38
environment he it was just unbelievable
01:01:41
how how massive he was. Yeah, because it
01:01:44
was that 99 World Cup that he became
01:01:46
like an international name with the game
01:01:48
against England. So, I suppose going
01:01:49
going back there three years later.
01:01:51
Yeah. Yeah. The legend will only grow.
01:01:53
Did you Did he Did you ever tackle him
01:01:55
as an opponent?
01:01:56
>> Yeah.
01:01:56
>> Did he ever concuss you?
01:01:58
>> Uh, no. I mean, my tactic with Jonah was
01:02:01
[laughter] like he was so big and so
01:02:03
fast, right? Big people shouldn't be
01:02:05
that fast. Like he was lightning quick.
01:02:07
Was just just jump in front of his knees
01:02:10
and hope he trips on you. That and that
01:02:12
is pretty much all I could do.
01:02:13
>> [laughter]
01:02:14
>> And that and that that was that was
01:02:16
trying to play Jonah. Like he was so
01:02:18
fast. Like I could move pretty quick and
01:02:20
I was nimble and light but he
01:02:23
>> for someone that big shouldn't be able
01:02:25
to run that fast.
01:02:26
>> Mhm.
01:02:27
>> And and that was that was that was my
01:02:28
only option really. Just hope he trips
01:02:31
on me as he as he goes past.
01:02:34
>> What do you remember of the game itself?
01:02:36
>> Uh I I've seen I've seen a bit of it so
01:02:39
I know I I was playing reasonably well.
01:02:42
Uh we were going well in the early parts
01:02:44
of the match. I made a good break um
01:02:46
down the sideline.
01:02:48
Um and then
01:02:51
and then I I don't remember. I remember
01:02:54
I think there was a scrum and I made a
01:02:56
tackle. The number eight came off the
01:02:57
back of the scrum and I just I just
01:02:59
clipped his hip and
01:03:01
>> who was number eight then? Was that
01:03:02
Lawrence Dalio?
01:03:03
>> Yeah, I think it was.
01:03:04
>> Yeah. Jeez. or might have been it might
01:03:06
have been like a willie away and Diego
01:03:08
was at six and he wheeled around and I I
01:03:10
just clipped his hip and I I remember
01:03:13
sort of coming to on the ground and I
01:03:15
was trying to stand up but I I was
01:03:17
really dizzy like everything was
01:03:18
spinning and I was really and I couldn't
01:03:20
I I couldn't stand up. It took me a
01:03:22
while and then Doc came on. I sat down
01:03:24
and I sort of thing settled down and I
01:03:26
was like I'm all right doc and he's like
01:03:27
and I was like
01:03:30
I'm where I want to be. I'm I'm all
01:03:33
right. And and then I made another
01:03:35
tackle and um as I tackled I I came to
01:03:38
the ground and one of the English I
01:03:40
think it was Richard Hill um came in to
01:03:42
clean out the ball and just just I got a
01:03:44
knee to the head and and
01:03:47
all I know I don't I don't really know a
01:03:50
lot what happened. I had maybe 10
01:03:52
stitches underneath my eye and they took
01:03:54
me off to to stitching me up and then um
01:03:59
it was halfime so the players came into
01:04:01
the dress sheds half time and they were
01:04:03
talking about moves over work and I I
01:04:05
just had no idea what the moves were.
01:04:06
Like I had I had
01:04:09
no they could have been talking Chinese
01:04:10
for all I just had no idea. And I there
01:04:13
was a there was a a baggage handler his
01:04:15
name was Lippy. Uh he was with he'd been
01:04:17
with the All Blacks for like 30 years or
01:04:18
something. And I went up to him. I said,
01:04:20
"Mate, do you know what these moves
01:04:21
are?" And he looked at me funny and I
01:04:23
was like, "Don't tell anyone. I just can
01:04:25
you find out what they are and just tell
01:04:27
me." And he went to the he went to the
01:04:29
coaches and said, "I I don't think he's
01:04:31
all right." And then coaches came over
01:04:33
with Doc and they like, "Do you know the
01:04:35
moves?" And I was like I was like,
01:04:36
"Yeah." [laughter]
01:04:38
They're like, "We they're like, "We you
01:04:40
can't go back out not knowing cuz that
01:04:43
that doesn't help the team." And um I
01:04:46
said, "I've got no idea what the moves
01:04:48
are." and they're like, "All right." And
01:04:50
I didn't go back on.
01:04:52
And that was that was halftime. But then
01:04:54
by the end of the match, I was I was,
01:04:56
you know, I was I was clear. I I sort of
01:04:58
I
01:05:00
worked out what had happened, what was
01:05:01
going on. I didn't know what had
01:05:03
happened, but I knew where I was and
01:05:05
started to think clearly again.
01:05:08
>> Where's that testoo jersey? Have you got
01:05:10
that framed and hung up somewhere or?
01:05:12
>> Uh, I actually gave it to a mate.
01:05:15
>> Who's the mate?
01:05:16
>> Why would you give that away? No, I've
01:05:18
I've I've said a lot today, but I I
01:05:20
won't It's a very personal story. I
01:05:22
won't I've
01:05:24
>> Yeah.
01:05:24
>> Right. So, it's not something you
01:05:26
regret. It's something you proud.
01:05:28
>> No, I I
01:05:31
>> Yeah.
01:05:33
>> Sounds like there's a good story behind
01:05:35
it. I fully respect. If you don't Why
01:05:36
don't you want to
01:05:37
>> Oh, cuz I've never told anyone and um
01:05:41
>> Yeah, it's between me and him.
01:05:42
>> Yeah. Fear.
01:05:44
>> Yeah.
01:05:46
Um, so who else was in that team when
01:05:49
you first joined? Well, oh, was that
01:05:51
Mccor's and Dan Carter's second year?
01:05:53
First year.
01:05:54
>> No, so Mccor's second year I think. And
01:05:56
Dan Carter, he played the next year uh
01:05:59
in 2003. So I played So his first test
01:06:03
was against Wales at uh Hamilton in
01:06:06
Hamilton and I played in that test, but
01:06:08
he played at 12. And in that test it was
01:06:11
um Jerry Collins made the big tackle on
01:06:15
their big loose forward and and and
01:06:17
knocked him out cold. I think Tonga
01:06:18
Tanunga stopped playing and um pulled
01:06:21
his tongue out of his throat. He knocked
01:06:24
him out.
01:06:25
>> So that was um Travis I think his name
01:06:27
was. Colin Colin Chavas I think. So, so
01:06:30
that was yeah, that game was mostly
01:06:31
remembered for yeah, Jerry just just
01:06:33
waloped him and he just dropped like a
01:06:36
stone and sort of play went on and um um
01:06:40
there was a turnover play went on and I
01:06:42
think Tana um stopped and assisted and
01:06:45
pulled his tongue out.
01:06:48
>> These are some great stories, eh? Yeah.
01:06:50
Jeez, you
01:06:51
>> they were great times, right?
01:06:52
>> You played alongside some just legends
01:06:54
of the game. Johnny Wilkinson as well.
01:06:55
He would have been playing I played
01:06:57
against Johnny. um at my first test and
01:07:00
then also I think one of my other tests
01:07:02
they played a game before the World Cup
01:07:04
down here in Wellington. We lost to
01:07:07
England in Wellington. Uh Johnny was
01:07:10
playing that match.
01:07:12
Um and I I I came in off the bench. I
01:07:14
think um Justin Marshall pulled his
01:07:17
hamstring uh during that game. So I came
01:07:19
in and probably got 30 40 minutes
01:07:21
towards the end of the match I think.
01:07:23
>> Um so yeah, played Johnny. um that
01:07:26
English team were, you know, they won
01:07:27
the World Cup that year. They were very
01:07:29
good. Um [snorts] yeah, a lot of lot of
01:07:31
lot of rugby memories. Lot of lot of
01:07:34
great people. Like
01:07:35
>> I really, [snorts] you know, the the
01:07:36
thing about New Zealand that I really
01:07:39
enjoy now is that like I travel New
01:07:41
Zealand a lot playing rugby, but you
01:07:42
like you're in a motel, you go to the
01:07:44
match, you might have a few beers after
01:07:46
and then you fly home. like [snorts]
01:07:47
traveling New Zealand post rugby and
01:07:50
actually meeting people is is, you know,
01:07:54
way more than I than I ever thought. I
01:07:56
just always thought traveling around New
01:07:57
Zealand, meeting people in the rugby
01:07:59
scene, but, you know, now you get to
01:08:02
meet people from from everywhere around
01:08:04
New Zealand and it's it's it's a great
01:08:05
little country.
01:08:07
>> It's a really cool little country.
01:08:08
>> You're a proud Kiwi, eh?
01:08:10
>> Yeah, I've been I've lived in New
01:08:12
Zealand now longer than than Australia,
01:08:14
>> which is hard to believe. [snorts] I
01:08:16
still have an Aussie passport. Some
01:08:18
people can't believe that. But uh
01:08:20
>> Oh, they don't want you back now. You're
01:08:21
damaged goods to them.
01:08:22
>> I am. Well, I [laughter] I can be I can
01:08:24
be in Sydney quicker than my parents can
01:08:27
be cuz they'll drive to Sydney. It's
01:08:29
about 6 hours. So,
01:08:30
>> if I get a phone call, I can jump on a
01:08:33
plane and be in Sydney quicker than mom
01:08:35
and dad can be.
01:08:36
>> Did you ever play against Australia?
01:08:38
>> I did. I So,
01:08:40
>> [ __ ] [snorts]
01:08:41
>> I played in 2003 before the World Cup.
01:08:44
We played Africa in Africa and put like
01:08:46
50 points on Africa at Loftus and I I
01:08:49
started that game and was you know
01:08:51
probably one of my highlights in in a
01:08:53
black Juice fan West's last game
01:08:56
>> in Africa. So I have his jumper
01:08:58
somewhere at home.
01:08:59
>> Wow.
01:09:00
>> Um and then we came to Sydney and I
01:09:02
thought you know we put 50 on the spring
01:09:04
box. I'm I'm a really good chance of u
01:09:06
playing this. the Aussies held the Blers
01:09:08
Low Cup and I thought I'm a really good
01:09:10
chance of playing here and and it turned
01:09:12
out I I was on the bench um and I was
01:09:17
about 10 minutes to go and um I was the
01:09:19
only one not on and I'm like they got to
01:09:21
give me we're up by
01:09:23
>> 40. I was like they got to give me and
01:09:25
Douggee how it went down uh with cramp
01:09:28
and they said uh you're on. So I jumped
01:09:30
up I took my track sit top off and I'm
01:09:33
like here we go. And then the manager,
01:09:35
he he had like a he had a microphone but
01:09:37
also had an earpiece and he put the
01:09:39
earpiece in and it was Robbie Dean
01:09:41
saying, "You're going on the right wing.
01:09:43
No one goes down the right side." And it
01:09:45
was 10 minutes to go. We're well clear.
01:09:47
And I was like, "All right, no one goes
01:09:49
down the right side." [snorts] And so I
01:09:51
went onto the wing and I was marking
01:09:52
Wendell Sailor and um it was in Sydney
01:09:55
and it was it was it was a it was a a
01:09:58
dream come true really not to be on the
01:10:00
wing but um that was that was the time I
01:10:02
played Aussie and then we won that game
01:10:05
well and then the following week um I
01:10:08
sat on the bench and didn't get on and
01:10:10
we won the Berslo cup uh in 2003 and
01:10:13
we've had it since.
01:10:17
>> Oh amazing. Oh, you Oh, okay. You were
01:10:19
there at the beginning of beginning of
01:10:21
>> I was at I was at the I was in Yeah, I
01:10:23
was at the beginning of the Berslow
01:10:25
reign,
01:10:26
>> the reign of terror.
01:10:28
>> See, anyone under the age of 30 won't
01:10:29
even sort of remember life without the
01:10:31
bleeders, but it used to be um like a
01:10:33
back and forth sort of thing. It was a
01:10:34
big deal.
01:10:34
>> Yeah, Aussie had it for a couple of
01:10:36
years, I think, and then we we took it
01:10:37
back off them that year
01:10:39
>> and I've had it since. Yeah. Which is
01:10:40
pretty cool.
01:10:42
>> And 2003 World Cup. So, you Yeah, you
01:10:44
were in that squad.
01:10:45
>> Yep. I was I played um I played some
01:10:48
some of that. Um played a few of the
01:10:51
earlier tests and then um yeah, I still
01:10:54
remember the semi-final. I played I was
01:10:57
on the bench for the quarterfinal
01:10:59
against South Africa. We played we
01:11:00
played really well. Um and then
01:11:04
um I had a bit of a little bit of a
01:11:07
hamstring niggle, but it wasn't a
01:11:10
hamstring. It was more of a tight back.
01:11:11
So we we got that sorted out. And the
01:11:14
morning I remember the team naming uh
01:11:16
the morning on the Thursday before the
01:11:18
semi-final and uh all the team were you
01:11:23
know meeting outside the team meeting
01:11:25
room just just wandering around before
01:11:27
we went in and and then I seen Robbie
01:11:30
Dans and he made eye contact and he
01:11:31
point and I was like that's that's the
01:11:33
dreter point to know before the the name
01:11:35
of the team they're going to let you
01:11:36
know you're not in it and they said
01:11:38
>> um we're going to go with Bon Kelly this
01:11:40
week. Um he's got a pretty good record
01:11:43
against George.
01:11:45
So um so that's it. And I I was I was
01:11:50
devastated. Um but that was it. And um
01:11:55
yeah, and then and and that was it. That
01:11:58
was uh watched from the grand stands and
01:12:00
um yeah, we were we were in trouble
01:12:02
early against the Aussies that just they
01:12:04
were just they were just better than us
01:12:06
that day unfortunately. Mhm.
01:12:09
[sighs]
01:12:10
>> What's it like um competing for the same
01:12:12
position as um like a Justin Marshall
01:12:15
and Byron Kellah? I've I've got to know
01:12:17
Marie pretty well and he's he's a great
01:12:20
human. He's a phenomenal human, but I I
01:12:22
I could imagine he would have been a
01:12:24
[ __ ] pain in the ass in his playing
01:12:26
days, especially if you're trying to
01:12:27
take his position.
01:12:28
>> Yeah, halfback's are competitive. Like
01:12:30
everyone's competitive at that level.
01:12:31
And you know, there was rivalry, there
01:12:33
was you know, everyone wants to play.
01:12:35
not everyone can do, but you know, at
01:12:38
the end of the day, it's about the all
01:12:39
backs and it's about the team, whatever
01:12:41
team you're in. And uh sometimes the ego
01:12:44
gets gets ahead of that. Um definitely.
01:12:47
And you know, it takes a it takes uh an
01:12:50
experienced leader in the team or it
01:12:52
takes uh you know, a really good coach
01:12:54
to to see that and you know, tell you to
01:12:57
wind it back a few pegs and it's about
01:12:58
the team. you know, I I I guess all
01:13:01
professional athletes at some stage have
01:13:03
had that conversation with a with a
01:13:04
senior player or a coach to,
01:13:07
>> you know, to to wind your wind your head
01:13:08
in a bit and it's about the team. So,
01:13:10
you know, in those moments, you're
01:13:12
disappointed for yourself, but, you
01:13:13
know, you then do what whatever you can
01:13:15
to make sure everyone else in that
01:13:17
team's ready to rumble.
01:13:18
>> I had um Sir Steve Hansen on the podcast
01:13:21
a few months ago. He told a story about
01:13:22
Marshy. I think it was a super rugby
01:13:24
game and he got told on the bus ride
01:13:26
that he wasn't going to be playing. And
01:13:27
when the team got off at the venue, he
01:13:28
just stayed on the bus just reading his
01:13:30
book. So Steve ended up going back on
01:13:32
sitting next to him and he goes, "Mate,
01:13:34
every p every minute you sit here and
01:13:37
every page you you turn in that book,
01:13:38
your teammates are in there losing
01:13:40
respect for you." So you can either keep
01:13:42
reading or get off the bus.
01:13:43
>> And he got off the bars.
01:13:44
>> Yeah. It takes a good coach or a good
01:13:46
senior player to to to see those moments
01:13:48
and help someone through. So and that's
01:13:51
always a good coach. Who were your
01:13:53
favorite coaches?
01:13:53
>> Uh Ted was good. Um I I listen I didn't
01:13:57
really not get on with anyone. I I I Ted
01:14:01
was amazing coach. Just his ability to
01:14:03
put everyone on the same page. I mean
01:14:05
that's coaching, right?
01:14:07
>> Have 15 people all understand what
01:14:09
they're doing, where they're doing it,
01:14:10
and when they're doing it, and how
01:14:11
they're doing it is coaching
01:14:12
essentially. And he school teacher, and
01:14:15
he just he just made sure everyone was
01:14:17
on the page. Um I had, you know, they're
01:14:20
all so different. Um, you know, I I
01:14:23
there wasn't anyone that I didn't think
01:14:24
was a good coach that I ever had. I I I
01:14:27
really enjoyed um the coaches. I mean,
01:14:29
it's such a
01:14:30
>> tough tough tough thing to do.
01:14:33
>> Um
01:14:34
>> Yeah. John John Mitchell, he's um I
01:14:38
mean, one thing that's lurked over his
01:14:39
time as a black coach, I suppose, is the
01:14:41
dropping of Kelly. Uh which has been
01:14:43
well well documented. Yeah. What was it?
01:14:44
I've had Kelly on the podcast. Um I know
01:14:47
him reasonably well, so I've got his
01:14:49
perspective. Um, what's it like being in
01:14:51
the all black environment when all this
01:14:52
sort of sideesh shows going on?
01:14:55
>> Was my first So, Kelly's last tour was
01:14:57
my first tour. So, you're very um
01:15:02
you're not really aware of a lot of
01:15:04
those bigger moments um with senior
01:15:07
players cuz that's all done in another
01:15:09
room. You and for me, I was just so
01:15:11
focused on doing what I had to do. Um
01:15:14
this is my chance and and I don't ever
01:15:17
want this to end. So, I'm going to do
01:15:19
everything I can. I It wasn't really I I
01:15:22
didn't I wasn't good enough to make it
01:15:24
about anyone else. I just had to make it
01:15:26
about me and and do as well as I could
01:15:28
at that stage. So, I I didn't know that
01:15:31
Kelly wasn't ever going to be selected
01:15:33
again. I know on that tour he didn't
01:15:35
play a lot, but also that he had a bit
01:15:38
of a knee injury. Like, I don't think
01:15:40
his knee was what it had been. So,
01:15:42
that's about all I knew. But listen,
01:15:45
Kelly, great team, man. like honestly as
01:15:48
a young young fellow in there, he was he
01:15:50
was a great great great team man. Great
01:15:53
great man to be around.
01:15:54
>> Obviously, you know, one of the greatest
01:15:57
ever in terms of a rugby [snorts]
01:15:59
player, but yeah, also a really top like
01:16:00
Kelly was was a good man and Mertz like
01:16:03
Mertz really
01:16:04
>> I spent a lot of time playing rugby with
01:16:06
Carlos and we had a really good
01:16:07
relationship and I I really understood
01:16:10
him on the rugby field against England.
01:16:12
He he got injured as well and came home.
01:16:14
Um and then I I played with Mertz and he
01:16:17
he is a character and um enjoyed the
01:16:20
light of moments and but again a great
01:16:22
man and yeah really enjoyed Mertz. You
01:16:24
sort of
01:16:26
uh helped me through um a few things but
01:16:29
he his way of dealing with pressure was
01:16:31
was really a lot different to other
01:16:33
people's. Um and then it made me think
01:16:36
about you know how I prepare for a
01:16:37
match. M
01:16:38
>> when you say Mertz help you through a
01:16:40
few things. What what
01:16:43
>> uh yeah um it's just it's just a calming
01:16:47
very calm influence like those big
01:16:49
pressure moments as a as a youngster
01:16:51
like Millennium Stadium with 80,000
01:16:53
people uh roof on you you literally
01:16:55
can't hear anything. It's just so
01:16:58
deafening the noise across the whole
01:17:00
game. Like even calling a line out is is
01:17:03
hard work because you can't you're
01:17:04
screaming it and no one can hear it.
01:17:07
um you know pressure on um they were
01:17:10
competitive and you know Mertz just
01:17:13
being the Mertz he is um calm, cool,
01:17:16
just happy, [snorts]
01:17:18
joking maybe about stuff and you know
01:17:21
that's just who he was.
01:17:23
>> Who who are you who was your favorite
01:17:25
person to room with? Were the favorite
01:17:26
people?
01:17:27
>> No, it didn't. I just love being being
01:17:29
away with the boys on tour. It didn't
01:17:31
matter. Um
01:17:32
>> yeah, I didn't have a bad one. Put it
01:17:35
that way. Well, there's a few bad
01:17:36
snorers here and there, but
01:17:38
>> Tana, did you have a room with Tana?
01:17:39
Apparently, he was the worst snorer
01:17:41
ever.
01:17:41
>> Did he get his own He only got his own
01:17:43
room for a while because the snoring was
01:17:44
so bad,
01:17:44
>> I'd say. So, Tana was uh Tana, he he
01:17:48
Yeah, he was up the top end. I was at
01:17:50
the bottom end essentially. No, I never
01:17:53
Tana, but yeah, listen, I I I I enjoyed
01:17:56
I enjoyed every every single second away
01:17:58
of my rugby career.
01:18:00
>> Uh injuries included.
01:18:02
>> I mean, you know, you you get to a point
01:18:06
where you you actually um enjoy
01:18:09
waking up on Sunday morning being sore
01:18:12
and shattered. You you actually get to a
01:18:14
stage where you train it. You live it.
01:18:16
You you actually it becomes part of your
01:18:19
life just waking up sore and it's almost
01:18:21
like a you know I've done this, I've
01:18:24
torn that it's it was like a
01:18:26
>> like a badge of honor.
01:18:27
>> Yeah. And and I I actually post rugby,
01:18:31
you know, you sort of you you miss you
01:18:35
miss that. It's it's such an evolving
01:18:38
intense environment like you can play
01:18:41
have a great week of training and have a
01:18:42
great game and you know Monday morning
01:18:45
you just you're just back back in the
01:18:47
moment. You're in the grind. just
01:18:48
working hard and you can you can have a
01:18:52
great week, have a bad game, and then
01:18:54
you have that Monday morning, everyone's
01:18:56
angry and upset and it's it's just
01:18:58
heated and it's intense and you you
01:19:00
know, you do everything you can
01:19:03
to get yourself ready for the next
01:19:05
Saturday. Like you you have multiple
01:19:07
reviews. Like I I find like in a work
01:19:09
environment these days, sometimes it can
01:19:12
be a year like there's issues over the
01:19:15
year and then you have a review and try
01:19:16
and fix it. like we used to do it every
01:19:18
every Monday essentially some when we
01:19:20
played really badly it would be a Sunday
01:19:22
morning
01:19:23
>> and it's a it's a really dynamic way of
01:19:26
you need things to improve very quickly
01:19:29
seven days um I I enjoyed the um you
01:19:35
know the the team dynamic to to get
01:19:38
everyone moving forward together in
01:19:40
seven days
01:19:42
was you know was fun intense um big
01:19:45
conversations had to be had particularly
01:19:47
in the later part of my career with
01:19:49
Oakland and and and and the Blues. Um I
01:19:53
never really made a leadership role uh
01:19:56
with the Allbacks, but you know, in in
01:19:58
those environments, I I really enjoyed
01:20:01
um
01:20:03
getting everyone ready for a big match.
01:20:06
>> And a lot of these lessons, I suppose,
01:20:07
are transferable, so you can take them
01:20:08
into the fire service and the other
01:20:10
roles that you've had. Yeah, I I think I
01:20:13
I I hope I am a little bit calmer uh in
01:20:15
and around pressure and a little bit
01:20:18
more light-hearted around work until
01:20:19
until it's on like fire services there
01:20:22
can be, you know, some sitting around
01:20:24
waiting for stuff to happen um which is
01:20:26
never nice. So, you know, why not enjoy
01:20:28
those moments? But certainly when when
01:20:30
the bells go down, it's it's game time
01:20:32
and and you zone in and make sure others
01:20:34
around you are zoned in.
01:20:37
>> Looking forward to moving into that
01:20:38
chapter. Just a couple more questions on
01:20:39
the All Blacks. Um the proudest moment
01:20:41
as an All Black.
01:20:43
>> Uh just, you know,
01:20:47
>> just just to wear the jumper.
01:20:50
>> It's a It was a road like not very well
01:20:54
traveled there. Dez Connor was another
01:20:56
Australian that I think wore the all
01:20:57
black jumper. Uh he was a half pack as
01:20:59
well. [snorts] Um yeah, you know, it was
01:21:02
my journey. It was a different journey
01:21:03
and I'm proud of that. I wouldn't swap I
01:21:06
wouldn't swap one minute in an all black
01:21:08
jumper for you know 200
01:21:11
>> m
01:21:12
>> caps as a an Australian rugby player. I
01:21:15
I I
01:21:17
feel I was able to play for the the
01:21:20
greatest team on the planet. That's what
01:21:22
I that's what I truly believe.
01:21:25
>> The fact that you get a little bit
01:21:26
emotional just saying um that sentence
01:21:28
speaks volumes, right?
01:21:30
>> Yeah. I mean, it's there's a, you know,
01:21:33
there's a a badge of honor that comes
01:21:35
along with being named as an all and
01:21:37
people expect you to be um very good at
01:21:41
what you do, but also expect you to be a
01:21:43
good person and
01:21:44
>> uh I I I still hope I hold myself to
01:21:48
those standards today.
01:21:50
>> Best [snorts] and worst memories from
01:21:52
that chapter.
01:21:53
>> Oh, yeah. you know, they had the the the
01:21:56
toll the the the two years post my last
01:22:00
concussion were were, you know, they
01:22:02
were my worst days
01:22:04
>> without a doubt. Um, you know, my best
01:22:07
days I I'd say every day was my best day
01:22:10
when I was in a rugby team, whether I
01:22:13
was injured or not. You know, it was
01:22:15
it's it's just I just loved every second
01:22:17
of it. And,
01:22:19
>> you know, I just I loved every second of
01:22:21
it. And I I think I've had a incredible
01:22:25
uh journey with with rugby. And I I I
01:22:27
honestly I not there's not a bad moment.
01:22:30
Um and that's probably why I ended up at
01:22:33
where I ended up because I I just never
01:22:35
wanted to stop and kept going. That's
01:22:38
probably what put me, you know, at my
01:22:40
lowest low was was was my chasing my
01:22:42
highest high
01:22:43
>> put me in my lowest low.
01:22:46
in the uh for for a lot of people that
01:22:47
the tradition from um high performance
01:22:49
sport to no longer being involved in
01:22:52
high performance sport is a tough one.
01:22:54
Um first of all the financial piece of
01:22:56
the puzzle. Was that sort of sorted?
01:22:57
Were you quite smart with your money?
01:22:59
>> Uh you have some savings.
01:23:01
>> Listen, we're all we're all really smart
01:23:03
with our money until you get divorced,
01:23:05
right? And then and then that doesn't
01:23:07
help anyone no matter what situation. So
01:23:09
>> [snorts]
01:23:10
>> um so was I smart? Listen, I I I wasn't
01:23:13
stupid with it. I invested a bit uh I
01:23:16
invested a bit into myself and my
01:23:20
lifestyle for for my people. And at the
01:23:24
time that
01:23:26
wasn't a silly idea. And at the time I
01:23:29
had, you know, an incredible
01:23:32
life and lifestyle that I, [snorts] you
01:23:34
know, no one in my family ever had. You
01:23:36
know, I had a batch and a boat and, you
01:23:39
know, that just I just was so thankful
01:23:42
for for where I was. Um, so you know, I
01:23:46
I was um yeah, I was very thankful that
01:23:49
I had options, I guess. So that that was
01:23:52
nice that there's a lot of people that
01:23:53
don't ever get an option, and I I was
01:23:55
very thankful that I was able to have
01:23:57
options to do something I wanted to do
01:23:59
post rugby.
01:24:00
>> You, as you sort of alluded to before,
01:24:02
um I'm paraphrasing here, you sort of
01:24:04
retired in 2007 kicking and screaming
01:24:06
after Dr. Steven Car said, "Look, mate,
01:24:08
you Yeah, enough is enough." Um
01:24:13
yeah. Yeah. How was that first year post
01:24:15
rugby?
01:24:15
>> I was very ill. I I did a bit of work
01:24:18
with um Jeff Thomas. I was working on um
01:24:20
the Outdoors with Jeff fishing and
01:24:22
hunting show.
01:24:23
>> So [snorts] we maybe a couple of days a
01:24:24
month we we'd go and do an adventure and
01:24:26
film it. And um and that's about all I
01:24:29
could manage really. And I I just know
01:24:31
post those two days, if it was two days,
01:24:33
I' i'd be a I'd be a a wreck for a
01:24:35
couple of weeks trying to recover from
01:24:37
it
01:24:38
>> just in time to probably go and do
01:24:39
something else with them. So I I was
01:24:42
very unill and I wasn't really capable
01:24:44
of doing much more than than that
01:24:47
unfortunately for two years. And then
01:24:49
and then I got my my injections and I
01:24:52
sort of came good and um post that like
01:24:55
a month post that I I I got a job with
01:24:56
Oakland Rugby being the team manager uh
01:24:58
for the MPC team for I did that for a
01:25:00
couple of years but I I really felt like
01:25:03
I was still good enough to play and I I
01:25:06
I really wanted to play but I wasn't
01:25:09
able to play but I had to watch it on
01:25:11
the sideline and it was really
01:25:12
frustrating for me and I I just knew
01:25:14
that I I couldn't do it. So I ran into a
01:25:17
mate who was a fireman and um I went had
01:25:20
a night at station with them and really
01:25:23
good crew um good team environment and
01:25:25
that and that's what I really missed. I
01:25:26
really love that time environment and
01:25:28
that's what I've always had like
01:25:29
boarding school being an electrician and
01:25:32
great team environment um footy teams
01:25:34
great team environment then I I just
01:25:35
really missed it.
01:25:37
>> Um and the fire service you know it
01:25:39
gives me that. Um we're we're you know
01:25:43
being a pretty tight crew and not every
01:25:46
day but I reckon maybe twice a year that
01:25:48
I'm in a situation where I think
01:25:52
this could be life or death
01:25:54
>> and I need to um I need to be aware of
01:25:58
what's going on around me and what's
01:25:59
going on around the people next to me to
01:26:01
make sure that we're safe. So I I enjoy
01:26:06
that. I think that takes a little bit of
01:26:09
the pressure of the rugby world that I
01:26:11
experience into the fire service. It
01:26:12
doesn't happen every Saturday, but it
01:26:14
does happen a couple times a year where
01:26:15
I I'm thinking, you know, this could go
01:26:18
either way. And I I enjoy that.
01:26:22
>> Yeah. And if you're talking something
01:26:23
like that, being a first responder, like
01:26:24
someone's life being on the line, then
01:26:26
the stakes are far higher than any rugby
01:26:27
game.
01:26:28
>> Yeah. Well, I'm talking my, you know,
01:26:31
most days we're in a situation where
01:26:32
someone's life is on the line, but um
01:26:34
I'm a couple of times a year I'm
01:26:36
thinking that's my life that's on the
01:26:37
line here.
01:26:38
>> Okay. Wow.
01:26:38
>> This could this could go either way. So,
01:26:41
yeah, I enjoy that. I
01:26:44
>> um I'm the fire service is it's a tough
01:26:47
gig at the moment. You know, we're we're
01:26:49
really undervalued by our employees.
01:26:51
It's it's I'm almost embarrassed.
01:26:54
Um,
01:26:54
>> what do you what what is a fire an
01:26:56
experienced fire fire service employee
01:26:58
you earn?
01:26:59
>> I think as a senior fireman I think
01:27:00
you're um maybe maybe a hund
01:27:05
um and then or just under and then as
01:27:07
you get into the bosses ranks you you go
01:27:09
you go a bit higher than that but
01:27:12
[snorts] I it's not about wage for me
01:27:14
it's just it's just been undervalued. I
01:27:16
I they're they're a very hard
01:27:18
organization to work for right now. um
01:27:22
you know the people on the front line
01:27:24
trying to save lives, not being given
01:27:27
adequate tools to do that is is actually
01:27:30
harder than like I experienced death a
01:27:34
lot at work and that's hard to deal
01:27:36
with. But
01:27:38
not being given the tools to help
01:27:40
someone in that situation is is is very
01:27:43
hard to deal with for me. It's different
01:27:45
for other people. I just
01:27:46
>> I just find an organization should help
01:27:49
its employees. Everyone in that
01:27:50
organization should be working towards
01:27:54
getting that fire truck out the front
01:27:55
door to save people in the community.
01:27:58
That's what I believe it is. And
01:28:00
unfortunately, it's really not that at
01:28:02
the moment. It's it's an organization
01:28:04
that
01:28:05
looks after
01:28:07
it's
01:28:09
um looks after the top few at the top.
01:28:12
They make some really poor decisions
01:28:14
around what's needed and not needed.
01:28:16
It's a it's an old man's club and people
01:28:19
get promoted into positions where
01:28:21
they're yesmen and then the guys at the
01:28:23
top continue to make the decisions that
01:28:27
is not based on what is best for the
01:28:29
community but what is based on best for
01:28:31
them and I I find that very difficult.
01:28:33
[snorts]
01:28:34
>> You've been really good at using the um
01:28:35
the profile that you built through rugby
01:28:37
to like champion things like this that
01:28:39
you're really passionate about and that
01:28:41
you firmly believe in. Well, that's
01:28:43
that's part of, you know, wearing the
01:28:45
jumper, right? You've you you've got to
01:28:47
be a good person and you got to do
01:28:49
what's right. And I I
01:28:52
you know, I think, you know, I think I'm
01:28:54
doing what's right. I I'm
01:28:57
why why shouldn't I use my position to
01:28:59
to try and make some change where where
01:29:01
I think it's it's for the good of the
01:29:02
community and and for the good of the
01:29:04
community basically. I mean, it's not,
01:29:06
[snorts]
01:29:07
you know, this is the I I think Neuroch
01:29:10
is for the community. I think fire
01:29:11
service is for the community and I sort
01:29:14
of feel maybe New Zealand's lost its way
01:29:15
as a community a little bit over the
01:29:17
last few years
01:29:18
>> and you know I think we need to start
01:29:21
back at the community level and really
01:29:23
concentrate on people in our little
01:29:26
communities working well together.
01:29:29
>> Yeah, the fire service do a tremendous
01:29:31
job. Um yeah, so undervalued. Can you
01:29:35
can you remember the first the first um
01:29:38
death you experienced in that job?
01:29:40
[sighs]
01:29:40
>> Oh, you know,
01:29:43
I
01:29:45
I just ask that cuz there's a lot of
01:29:46
stuff that people sort of overlook. They
01:29:47
think you just, you know,
01:29:49
>> we do a lot of
01:29:49
>> taking cats out of trees, putting in
01:29:51
smoke detectors for old ladies and go to
01:29:52
fire.
01:29:52
>> So, maybe 10 years ago now, I've been in
01:29:54
for 14 years. So, maybe 10 years ago, we
01:29:57
were told we're doing um first
01:29:59
responders to medical events. Uh we'll
01:30:02
call them um so basically cardiac
01:30:04
arrest. we're doing. We're going to be
01:30:05
first responders and was like overnight
01:30:07
it was like
01:30:09
what? Um, so we were always able to do
01:30:13
CPRs, but we never got called to them.
01:30:14
And then overnight we got called to
01:30:16
them. And as a fireman, our um, we see
01:30:19
trauma a lot at work. Like I'd been
01:30:21
around deaths and car accidents and
01:30:23
whatnot, but you know, could manage
01:30:25
that. But then overnight we started
01:30:27
going to these cardiac arrests and we
01:30:30
honestly our our incidents exposure to
01:30:33
trauma uh, went up 6,000%.
01:30:37
6,000% overnight. And we just started
01:30:40
going to these medical events where you
01:30:43
know we we just do chest compressions
01:30:44
and and you know people were dying and a
01:30:48
lot and it it tipped uh you know it
01:30:52
tipped a few colleagues over the edge
01:30:55
and um you know suicide in the fire
01:30:58
service. There were there were a few of
01:30:59
people in Oakland and around the country
01:31:02
and we we had no help. We had no
01:31:05
support. We had no counseling. Yet we
01:31:08
continue to go these medical events with
01:31:10
with to be brutally honest our medical
01:31:13
training is the same medical training
01:31:14
you would get as a office worker
01:31:17
>> like a St. John's first aid yeah
01:31:18
>> half a day course sort of thing. We do
01:31:20
we do a one day course every two years
01:31:22
now and and then that's we don't get
01:31:23
anything different
01:31:25
>> and there was no support for us at the
01:31:27
other end and
01:31:28
>> you know I got involved in Movember um
01:31:31
because you know we just we were we were
01:31:35
we had firemen good people committing
01:31:38
suicide because they couldn't deal with
01:31:39
the trauma anymore and that's
01:31:41
>> you know that's brutally
01:31:46
um not good enough and we still to this
01:31:49
day we have We have fire trucks that are
01:31:50
breaking down every day. The New World
01:31:52
fire just down here,
01:31:54
>> what 4 months ago?
01:31:56
>> Yeah,
01:31:56
>> I was at that.
01:31:58
>> So the day after it happened, I I was
01:31:59
there waiting for a firet truck to break
01:32:01
down and it didn't in front of all the
01:32:02
media. The next day, two fire trucks
01:32:05
caught on fire.
01:32:08
You know, we're just so hopeless. Our
01:32:12
fire service management are just so
01:32:16
in depth. They're just useless at
01:32:18
managing the most important resource in
01:32:21
our job,
01:32:23
uh, which is our tools we need to help
01:32:26
our communities.
01:32:29
>> I I can I can sense your frustration.
01:32:32
>> Someone's going to die.
01:32:33
>> I already know I already know people
01:32:35
have died u because we have been able to
01:32:37
help them.
01:32:38
>> Mhm.
01:32:38
>> And my biggest fear is if going to die
01:32:41
and it's someone I know.
01:32:45
[laughter]
01:32:46
How do you and your co-workers like cope
01:32:48
with the trauma of the stuff you see and
01:32:50
the stuff you experience?
01:32:51
>> Yeah, it's been a journey. Um yeah, I
01:32:53
you know I I for a long time I I
01:32:56
couldn't go a night uh I couldn't get
01:32:59
through a night of sleep without
01:33:02
uh waking up doing compressions on
01:33:04
someone like I'm doing CPR. Like I wake
01:33:06
up whether it was
01:33:07
>> my partner or or just just doing
01:33:10
compressions. So, you know, that's
01:33:12
trauma. And so, I I have a I had a
01:33:15
psychologist that I uh used
01:33:19
uh finally through the fire service,
01:33:20
which was, you know, unpacking that
01:33:22
trauma is uh a skill. And it's tools I
01:33:26
didn't have at the start, but tools I
01:33:28
feel like I have have now. And, you
01:33:31
know, I see people with trauma, it's
01:33:33
it's easier to
01:33:36
to having known that I've been there
01:33:37
myself to to sort of maybe help others.
01:33:39
But sometimes it's a very hard thing to
01:33:41
help someone until they unlock it. You
01:33:45
can't see it while you're in it. But
01:33:46
until you get out of it that you can see
01:33:48
exactly what it is. So [gasps]
01:33:50
yeah, it's it's a it's a pickle
01:33:51
particularly with you know all your
01:33:53
friends you work with, your work
01:33:55
colleagues all going through the same
01:33:57
>> sort of thing together. So, it's been a
01:33:59
journey, but we we're definitely getting
01:34:01
better, but you know, we just need to be
01:34:05
what
01:34:07
we need to be better in this country at
01:34:09
resourcing the things we need, the
01:34:11
frontline staff that we need,
01:34:13
>> nurses,
01:34:15
fire, police, ambulance. We I I don't
01:34:18
understand why we don't have a great
01:34:20
front line.
01:34:22
>> Everyone like not every you don't need
01:34:24
them every day, but when you do need
01:34:25
them, you need them, right?
01:34:27
>> Oh, yeah. and you want them to be very
01:34:28
very skilled
01:34:29
>> and and it's just why they're under why
01:34:32
they're all under resourced. I I I just
01:34:34
do not know.
01:34:35
>> It's a it's a crime.
01:34:38
>> When when you think about your legacy,
01:34:40
um what would you like people to
01:34:42
remember? Is it the rugby career? Um the
01:34:44
work you've done to shine a light on
01:34:46
concussion, um the campaigning you've
01:34:48
done for better conditions in the fire
01:34:50
service, or something completely
01:34:51
different? Um, I' I'd like Michael Jones
01:34:54
told me a long time ago, I a hard
01:34:57
worker. Uh, loyal.
01:35:00
>> Um,
01:35:02
uh, that that's that's how I'd like to
01:35:04
be remembered.
01:35:07
>> Yeah. A good person, I guess.
01:35:09
>> Yeah.
01:35:09
>> Like,
01:35:10
>> yeah.
01:35:12
>> Yeah. That's a great way to be
01:35:14
remembered. Jesse, are you are you
01:35:16
typically this this emotional? You're
01:35:17
quite an emotional guy. You got your
01:35:19
heart on your sleeve.
01:35:20
>> Yeah. Uh,
01:35:20
>> it's not a weakness, by the way. I think
01:35:22
it's like shows a huge amount of courage
01:35:24
and strength.
01:35:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's hard. I've
01:35:29
always found it hard talking about
01:35:30
myself, and that's why these things are
01:35:32
never great, but I
01:35:34
>> Yeah. I mean, particularly when my
01:35:36
children are involved, I I think I get
01:35:38
emotional. But, you know, health and
01:35:40
happiness, right? And
01:35:41
>> 100%.
01:35:42
>> And you just you just try and help what
01:35:45
you think you can help with. And I don't
01:35:49
I don't think I'm any more important
01:35:51
than anyone else. I just think, you
01:35:53
know, this is my story. I hope people
01:35:55
listen and I hope it helps. I guess I
01:35:58
don't want it to hinder. Definitely. I
01:36:00
But,
01:36:00
>> you know, we need to get better at
01:36:02
asking for help.
01:36:03
>> Yeah.
01:36:04
>> And we need to get better at seeking
01:36:06
some help out. And I can't expect other
01:36:08
people to do it if I if I don't do it
01:36:09
myself. And, you know,
01:36:11
>> I don't want to be
01:36:14
>> me talking about it makes me be better.
01:36:16
M
01:36:17
>> um so I can't expect other people to do
01:36:19
it if I don't do it. So here I am.
01:36:22
>> Yeah, I'm the same in that in that
01:36:24
department. Like I talk about a lot on
01:36:25
the podcast like the importance of
01:36:27
vulnerability and sharing even though I
01:36:29
know I'm [ __ ] at it myself. But the more
01:36:31
I vocalize it, the more that I wear that
01:36:34
the more that I'm aware there's a lot
01:36:35
more work to be done.
01:36:36
>> Yeah.
01:36:36
>> I think um in the All Blacks I think
01:36:38
it's it's probably better now than what
01:36:39
it's ever been with guys like Arty See
01:36:40
and TJ Pedonado. But yeah, back in your
01:36:43
day it was just wasn't a thing, was it?
01:36:44
>> Yeah. And that's not good or bad. That's
01:36:46
just what it was. I know I know they're
01:36:48
working. I think I think men in
01:36:50
generally across society are working on
01:36:52
it. I think Movember has been massive
01:36:54
and we we're getting better. Um but
01:36:56
there's always room for improvement,
01:36:58
right?
01:36:58
It always starts with with education and
01:37:01
you know we teach our kids I think kids
01:37:04
at school should be have counselors and
01:37:06
should have
01:37:07
>> um psychiatrists because if they're
01:37:09
using it at school by the time they get
01:37:11
to late teens when when there's some
01:37:14
really big issues can be quite complex
01:37:16
that they're already seeking they've
01:37:17
already s sought help before and it's
01:37:20
easier for them to do that. we sort of I
01:37:23
I feel we we leave that to right at the
01:37:26
very end and then some people miss that
01:37:29
last step when if we if it psychology
01:37:32
and stuff is used in school. Yeah.
01:37:34
>> Uh we teach our kids to to reach out and
01:37:37
ask for help then they're more likely to
01:37:39
do it when they get themselves in a bit
01:37:41
of a pickle when they get a bit older
01:37:42
on. That would be so cool if that was
01:37:44
part of the curriculum. E like um yeah,
01:37:46
resilience, gratitude, mindfulness,
01:37:49
>> the importance of speaking,
01:37:50
>> wouldn't it? It just I I think it it
01:37:53
would change our communities. I think
01:37:55
people would then start looking
01:37:57
>> looking to help others around our
01:37:59
communities and and we become better. I
01:38:03
Yeah.
01:38:04
>> What's what's your inner voice like? Are
01:38:06
you sort of like a a cheerleader for
01:38:08
yourself or a critic to yourself? I can
01:38:10
I can be harsh on myself, but I you know
01:38:14
I I just I'm very thankful for where I
01:38:17
am at the moment. You know,
01:38:20
uh I've got a a great partner and we
01:38:22
talk a lot and we I'm very thankful for
01:38:26
where I am and I can be harsh on myself,
01:38:28
but you know, at the end of the day, my
01:38:31
health and happiness, I I bring myself
01:38:32
back to back to that. And if I'm happy,
01:38:35
which I am, you know, I'm probably
01:38:37
happiest I've ever been right now. And I
01:38:39
I it's life's in enjoyment. Uh my health
01:38:42
my my health's good if I look after
01:38:44
myself. Probably put on a a few too many
01:38:48
kilos over the winter, so I'm I'm going
01:38:51
to deal with that. Um you know,
01:38:53
>> you're looking like Steven Donald in
01:38:54
2011.
01:38:55
>> Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. I'm
01:38:57
glad this job is [laughter] not that
01:38:58
tight, but you know, you know, I've had
01:39:01
some injuries and you know, it's as you
01:39:03
get older, it gets a bit harder to
01:39:04
bounce back, right? So, [snorts]
01:39:06
>> you know, I'll work my way through that.
01:39:07
I don't have to work my way through it
01:39:08
as a rugby player. I find now that at my
01:39:10
age I'm almost 50 that if I try and be
01:39:13
that person, I just break myself.
01:39:15
>> So I just I'm just going to moderation
01:39:17
work my way back into getting a bit
01:39:19
fitter. A great stat No Movember told me
01:39:21
last year is that um
01:39:24
getting fit is three to four times
01:39:27
better for you than the best medication
01:39:30
prescribed medication for depression.
01:39:33
So, so getting fit is three to four
01:39:35
times better for you than medication for
01:39:37
depression. Like it's a massive stat,
01:39:39
right? Going for a walk is better for
01:39:41
you than medicating for depression.
01:39:44
>> Oh, yeah. Like if if you put um the
01:39:46
benefits of exercise into a pill,
01:39:48
everyone would be taking it.
01:39:49
>> Yeah.
01:39:50
>> People up for it,
01:39:51
>> you know. And I I now understand at at
01:39:54
my age that you don't have to be you
01:39:56
don't have to run a Bronco
01:39:59
>> uh sub 5 minutes because that's what the
01:40:01
All Blacks are doing and train like
01:40:02
that. You just you just have to be
01:40:05
active and going for a walk. I I try and
01:40:07
walk every day.
01:40:08
>> I I can't run now cuz I just tear calves
01:40:12
like
01:40:12
>> Mhm.
01:40:13
>> So I just I just walk and I I go to the
01:40:15
gym and I I try and and do what I can
01:40:17
but if I if I try and train like an all
01:40:19
black I I just injure myself. So, you
01:40:21
know what? I'm I'm just going to step
01:40:23
back and just exercise um like a normal
01:40:28
human being and not like a [snorts] like
01:40:30
a madman.
01:40:31
>> Yeah. The way you and I are the similar
01:40:32
age. I'm a couple of years older than
01:40:33
you, but there was a book I read that
01:40:35
that I really like by this guy called um
01:40:37
Dr. Peter Atier called outlive and he
01:40:39
talks about reverse engineering aging.
01:40:40
So he's like at 70 if you think okay
01:40:43
well I want to be traveling around
01:40:44
Europe on rail I mean I need to be
01:40:46
strong enough to put a 20 kilo suitcase
01:40:48
into an overhead locker then at 50 you
01:40:50
need to be you know doing exercises that
01:40:53
are going to allow you to do that 20
01:40:55
years down the track if you're going to
01:40:56
be like walking briskly around you know
01:40:59
around Europe then you need to be like
01:41:00
you know be able to walk 10 15 20ks
01:41:03
comfortably in your 50s
01:41:05
>> um something I've applied to my life you
01:41:07
said before you're the happiest you've
01:41:08
you've been in ages what what What what
01:41:10
is happiness to you now? What makes you
01:41:12
happy?
01:41:12
>> Uh I I feel like my kids have moved out
01:41:16
of home. Uh they're in great they're in
01:41:18
a great space. They're both excited
01:41:20
about what's ahead of them. Um I got a
01:41:22
great partner. Um you know um good
01:41:27
friends. Um I'm not uh I feel like I've
01:41:31
got lots of different things happening
01:41:33
at the moment. I'm probably not doing as
01:41:35
much fishing as I'd like, but let's
01:41:37
let's try and change that in the in the
01:41:38
summer coming forward. I just um you
01:41:41
know I feel like I'm I'm
01:41:44
I've stopped trying to um be so
01:41:48
competitive. I've I've stopped trying to
01:41:51
be the best person at the gym. I've
01:41:53
stopped trying to compete with everyone
01:41:56
at everything if it's from, you know,
01:41:58
cooking a barbecue to mowing the lawn.
01:42:00
Like I've just I've just I've really
01:42:03
tried to release competition away from
01:42:05
my life. I don't think it's a good
01:42:07
trait. I I know it's an important trait
01:42:09
to have, but I I really as a as a
01:42:12
person, particularly when you're not in
01:42:13
a professional environment when you
01:42:17
compare yourself to um just the average
01:42:21
general person trying to compete against
01:42:23
them, I I don't need to do that. And
01:42:25
it's very like it comes across as a real
01:42:28
arrogance and I I really don't like
01:42:30
myself in those moments where I get
01:42:32
competitive. Like sometime it can be a
01:42:33
game of touch. Someone [snorts] will say
01:42:35
something to me and I'm just like, "All
01:42:37
right." [laughter]
01:42:38
>> It's like you're back there at
01:42:39
Twickingham.
01:42:39
>> Yeah. And I'm like, "Fuck it. Let's go."
01:42:42
[laughter] And and like I don't care if
01:42:44
we fight. Like honestly, let's go. And I
01:42:46
just I then put myself in a car and I
01:42:48
just I just I I I hate myself in that
01:42:52
moment because that's not fair on
01:42:54
anyone, particularly myself. So I really
01:42:57
I I I try my hardest not to be
01:42:58
competitive anymore. I think that's the
01:43:00
thing that really triggers me into being
01:43:04
from being a nice person into not being
01:43:06
a nice person and being all about
01:43:07
winning. I life for me now I don't I
01:43:11
don't have to win at everything.
01:43:12
>> I'll still try but I don't have to be
01:43:15
>> brutal about it. So, as long as I'm in
01:43:18
that space, I find I'm really happy. A
01:43:21
lot of people probably won't even
01:43:22
understand that, but I I just I I don't
01:43:25
I don't like me as a human being when
01:43:27
I'm ultra competitive. And I So
01:43:30
>> I try. I don't get it right all the
01:43:32
time,
01:43:32
>> but I
01:43:33
>> You never will.
01:43:33
>> I I I hope I do get it right because I
01:43:36
don't like myself in those ultra
01:43:38
competitive moments, particularly when
01:43:39
it's [snorts]
01:43:41
not an all black test or it's not a
01:43:43
super rugby. It
01:43:44
>> doesn't matter. It just [laughter]
01:43:46
doesn't matter, right?
01:43:47
>> Social touch.
01:43:48
>> I know. Sometimes it's not even social.
01:43:50
Sometimes it's against my kids,
01:43:52
[laughter]
01:43:52
you know. I just it can be a game of
01:43:55
golf when I just someone will say
01:43:57
something and I just I
01:43:58
>> I just don't enjoy myself in that moment
01:44:00
and I feel like I'm a better person when
01:44:02
I'm not. So
01:44:04
>> that's what I that's what I'm trying to
01:44:06
do.
01:44:06
>> When I had um Steve Hansen on the
01:44:08
podcast, he he yeah he talked about his
01:44:10
competitiveness and he his kids say it's
01:44:12
an alter ego called Stanley and they're
01:44:14
like Stanley's come out and he he said
01:44:16
uh the cost it had on him is that his
01:44:18
kids didn't want to play cards with him.
01:44:20
They didn't want to play any board
01:44:21
games, anything cuz it's just
01:44:22
unbearable.
01:44:23
>> Yeah, it is. It's it's it's unbearable.
01:44:26
And
01:44:27
>> you come out of that moment and you see
01:44:28
yourself and you're like, "God, that's a
01:44:30
dicky thing to do."
01:44:32
>> Zero chill.
01:44:33
>> Yeah.
01:44:34
>> Yeah. Would that be would that be um
01:44:38
Yeah. Know another thing Steve said is
01:44:40
that he's got a theory that a person's
01:44:41
greatest strength is also usually their
01:44:43
greatest weakness. Would that be your
01:44:45
competitive like your competitiveness?
01:44:46
Like it served you very well.
01:44:48
>> Yeah. But it's it's but it's a horrible
01:44:51
trait [laughter] as you get older,
01:44:52
right? People don't care.
01:44:54
>> Like even like doesn't matter. Even if
01:44:56
it's like going to the pub and having a
01:44:58
few drinks with some friends, like there
01:45:00
is a moment in in my life where I it's a
01:45:03
competition to see who can drink the
01:45:04
most. and [snorts] I don't end up as a
01:45:07
good person and I don't end up enjoying
01:45:10
myself doing it and the next day I hate
01:45:12
it and I you know and it's just it's
01:45:15
just that if I feel if I can reduce that
01:45:18
gene away from me like don't get me
01:45:21
wrong it served me very very very well
01:45:23
but I think now at my age it's it's time
01:45:25
to let it go and
01:45:28
>> it's not a sexy quality in our 50s
01:45:30
>> no it's not it's an arrogant dick
01:45:32
quality right
01:45:33
>> yeah but it's like the um the
01:45:34
vulnerability thing we were talking
01:45:35
about and you know being able to speak
01:45:37
about difficult things if you're aware
01:45:39
of it then you can you've got a better
01:45:41
chance of putting a lid on it.
01:45:42
>> Yeah.
01:45:43
>> Um you what about future goals? Are you
01:45:45
are you much of a goal setter? Like
01:45:47
where do you see yourself at 55 60?
01:45:50
>> My my goals these days like I I want to
01:45:53
be I want to be healthy and I want to be
01:45:55
happy and as long as I tick those boxes
01:45:57
I I feel like that's who that's where
01:46:00
I'm at my best. Um, I' I've got a, you
01:46:03
know, I've got issues. We all have
01:46:05
issues. I I I find like everyone else
01:46:08
probably finds that if you talk about
01:46:10
them, then they get a bit easier. Like
01:46:12
that's crazy to find out at 50, right?
01:46:15
>> Um,
01:46:15
>> there's a saying that's been it's not a
01:46:16
new saying, but a problem shared is a
01:46:18
problem that's been around.
01:46:20
>> Yeah. So, I'm working hard on myself to
01:46:22
get myself in those situations to have
01:46:24
those um tough conversations about
01:46:28
myself and about my life and about the
01:46:29
people around me. So, you know, that's
01:46:32
good. Um, I Yeah, I my goals my goals I
01:46:36
just want to be a good person. I I'd
01:46:38
love to see this thing kick off. I'd
01:46:40
love to see Neuroch get used. I I
01:46:42
>> is Is it
01:46:45
you know that they probably don't want
01:46:47
me saying this and I I don't really
01:46:49
care. I just Is it the best thing we
01:46:51
have right now? Like I truly believe
01:46:53
that. And is it going to save the
01:46:56
problem going forward? I I don't know.
01:46:57
But is it the best thing we have right
01:46:59
now?
01:47:00
>> If there's other things out there that
01:47:03
people know about or using then let's
01:47:06
chat like let's honestly let's chat and
01:47:08
get together and maybe between all of us
01:47:10
we can we can figure out a better
01:47:11
solution. But right now, I really think
01:47:14
particularly in that amateur space, um I
01:47:17
really think that this is a tool that
01:47:19
can be used to really assist us sport in
01:47:23
a accidents um in a time where there's
01:47:27
not a lot. So I I I I'm I'm
01:47:32
my goals for that. I hope hopefully I
01:47:34
can get it accessible to every New
01:47:35
Zealander to be able to use
01:47:37
>> because I until something else comes
01:47:39
along, I I think this is the best thing
01:47:41
we have right now. And I I truly believe
01:47:43
that.
01:47:46
>> That's awesome. Now, I think you we only
01:47:48
just met today, but we've been talking
01:47:49
for an hour and three/arters. And uh the
01:47:52
Steve Divine that I've got to meet
01:47:53
today, he's he is a good person.
01:47:55
>> Well, that's good. I Yeah. And you know,
01:47:58
I think I we don't know each other prior
01:48:00
to today. And you know, it's a it's a
01:48:03
it's [snorts] a it's a great skill to be
01:48:05
able to sit and listen to someone and I
01:48:08
you have done that. you've made it very
01:48:10
easy for me to talk about some tough
01:48:12
situations. So, I I thank you for that.
01:48:14
>> I appreciate you being so open. Last
01:48:17
couple of questions. Um, say we weren't
01:48:20
in this room, but your your family and
01:48:22
friends were. How would you like them to
01:48:23
describe you?
01:48:26
>> What would you hope they'd say behind
01:48:27
your back?
01:48:28
>> I'd hope they'd say that I'm hardworking
01:48:29
and honest and loyal.
01:48:30
>> Mhm.
01:48:31
>> Um, that's what I that's what I set out
01:48:34
to be.
01:48:35
>> Yeah.
01:48:36
>> And are you proud of yourself?
01:48:38
>> Yeah. Listen, we're we're getting there.
01:48:43
Um, yeah, like I've my my journey's been
01:48:47
very different to a lot of others, but
01:48:49
>> but everyone has a journey, right? So, I
01:48:51
I'm I'm very happy where I'm at right
01:48:53
now.
01:48:54
>> Um,
01:48:56
and from where I've been
01:48:58
>> uh at both ends of the scale, you know,
01:49:00
I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty happy with that.
01:49:04
[gasps]
01:49:05
[sighs]
01:49:06
>> This has been great.
01:49:07
>> Long may it continue, eh? Yeah, 100%
01:49:09
100%. Well, you're almost 50, so
01:49:11
hopefully it's hopefully it's like half
01:49:13
time.
01:49:13
>> Almost 50. That's hard to say. E,
01:49:15
[laughter]
01:49:16
>> no, it's a great I remember turning I
01:49:19
remember turning 30 and I I remember
01:49:21
when I was a younger kid, like 12 or
01:49:22
whatever. I remember saying to myself,
01:49:24
God, could you imagine being 30? And I
01:49:28
it was a voice that stuck in my head and
01:49:30
then I was I was quite depressed when I
01:49:32
turned 30. I was just like, God, that's
01:49:34
old. And now it's like, you know what? I
01:49:37
can still act 30 if I want to um and
01:49:40
have a good time. So, 50 is not so bad.
01:49:43
>> You're doing great. And I I'll tell you
01:49:45
one big observation from this podcast
01:49:46
today is um you're you're very um
01:49:50
articulate and nothing wrong with your
01:49:52
memory.
01:49:53
>> Yeah.
01:49:53
>> Your memory recall spot on. I I you know
01:49:56
I I feel I feel some of my short-term
01:50:00
stuff um is probably
01:50:04
um when I compare it to some of my footy
01:50:07
mates is probably definitely on par with
01:50:09
but uh I feel some of the shorter term
01:50:11
stuff is hard but what I understand is
01:50:12
the shorter term stuff is for for
01:50:15
everyone once you get a bit like where's
01:50:17
my keys where's my those sorts of things
01:50:19
>> m I've had zero concussions but um I I I
01:50:22
probably can't remember some passwords
01:50:23
that I set up on my yesterday.
01:50:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Good. So, it's
01:50:27
normal.
01:50:27
>> So, not too bad there.
01:50:28
>> Yeah. Hey, this has been a great podcast
01:50:30
today, mate. It's been really wonderful
01:50:31
and I I can't thank you enough, Steve
01:50:32
Divine.
01:50:33
>> Thank you.
