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what's up
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hey what's up what's your program when
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do you put this out uh each Monday each
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Monday an episode comes out
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um we're on now John Hart hello welcome
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to Runners only with dom Harvey hi Dom I
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don't know how you got Runners only and
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you got me well you know well this is I
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launched the podcast
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um at the beginning of uh 2022 and it
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was like a run I thought I'm so late to
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the podcast game I need like a niche and
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I love running so I thought everyone's
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got some connection to running so it
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started off with that as a niche but it
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sort of evolved quite a bit yeah it's
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probably probably time for a Rebrand
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yeah I'm not sure not sure if you expect
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me to run yes it is
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um welcome thank you so much for coming
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over I I
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um tried to research you online is this
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your first ever podcast uh yes it is
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I've been um probably pretty quiet in
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recent times and out of out of the
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public eye but um working hard at the
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things I love and um enjoying retirement
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or send me retirement and um yeah having
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fun
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a lot of uh players that you coached
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over the years would find it very hard
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to believe that you've been quiet
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actually
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[Laughter]
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maybe a little Icebreaker here it's one
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of the most recognizable voices that uh
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you'll get to hear
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um
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I asked someone for comment on you
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you'll be a good guest uh absolute
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cracker of a talker and the first thing
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I'd say about John Hart New Zealand
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Rugby was very very lucky to have him as
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coach in 1996 that's when the game went
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professional Hardy had 25 years old
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corporate experience with Richard
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challenge so knew everything about a
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work-life balance knew everything about
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Contracting
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um
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ah just just sorting out both on and off
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field of fears so we're really lucky uh
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to have him there and super super
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organized incredibly organized and
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Brilliant motivational speaker so sat
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down with you and made it very very
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clear uh what was expected of you your
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job nothing more nothing less but
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brilliant uh look in the eye and making
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sure you understood what was required
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yeah Ian Jones one of the greatest ever
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that's very nice yeah how I mean I've
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got another message to play from him but
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before we get into that like how does
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that make you feel when you've had that
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impact on someone yeah that's nice I
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mean um you never know that sometimes
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you know you never hear those sort of
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comments and um you know I there's no
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doubt that
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sorry no doubt going into the um
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professional era was totally new new for
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everyone and uh
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and probably my background helped in
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that regard so I appreciate his words
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and and I don't think people even
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understand how difficult it was going to
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into a profession where I mean there was
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a lot of shifts for at all levels of the
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game and all contributors and uh
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professionalism wasn't as smooth or as
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easy as it might have been but we worked
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hard at it and I wasn't always the most
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popular coach because I had to make some
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pretty hard decisions particularly in
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terms of what was acceptable and what
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wasn't acceptable in terms of how do you
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mean well behaviors
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um you know the old days and the amateur
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days what went on tour stayed on tour
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um standards were possibly a lot more
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average in the professional era you were
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owned by the public you were in the
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public eye and you had a responsibility
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and um and I think you know that mean we
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had to change some of the things that
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were traditional in the All Blacks and
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some people didn't like that some
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players reacted to that but I know it
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was the right thing and ultimately we
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got it right
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was there I mean I've got no idea what
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the all black folds like now whether
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there's the store still the uh the back
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bus thing with senior players or that
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sort of US versus them mentality with
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the they've seen it um it was you look
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back now under the 2023 guys it was just
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sort of elements of almost bullying in a
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way look I I
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I'm not close to it right now but but
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but I would think that's well and truly
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gone yeah that sense of bullying and um
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and there was that it was involved
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pretty heavily before I was involved I
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mean I used to be I used to be quite
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shocked at some of the things I saw and
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read
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um in terms of some of the Behavior Uh
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team behaviors but look
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professionalism's evolved to people
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who've grown with it
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um I think you see really a very
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different attitude now to to young
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people wanting to succeed to older
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players wanting to help younger players
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and everyone's focused on team versus
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maybe individual and so I think um you
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know there's a lot more cohesiveness
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unity and and in the end a better
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product yeah well it just wasn't it
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wasn't a thing back then wasn't it I
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remember I was a um broadcaster in
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Palmerston North at the time in the 90s
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and uh I was uh so I worked in the
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morning doing a breakfast radio show
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then I was free all day so when rugby
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became professional
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um I became best friends with some rugby
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players at the time because we all had
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all this free time so there was a
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Christian Callan Mark Granby yeah yeah
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Dion Waller Kristen Davis yeah yeah um
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switch all of those guys I didn't coach
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Dion but I coached those guys yeah yeah
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we used to kick around to get a bit um
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yeah I think Chris Christian was shy by
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Nature until you get to know him and I
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think he found an incredibly
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intimidating at the time yeah the older
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players yeah Fitzy and Camo and whoever
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else well that's only natural I guess
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um you know for young people
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particularly if they come in
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um pretty inexperienced as well
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um and all of a sudden to be exposed to
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that sort of level of player and and
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everything that goes with it the aura
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around them
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um yeah you do come in a bit quiet and
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and possibly that's a good thing because
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you come in and learn you don't want to
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be a loud mouth whatever you want to
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learn yeah and then anyone understand
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and um you know I I think that that that
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helps them all grow ultimately yeah okay
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I've got another message to play you
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from um Ian Jones now if you know
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corporate people like I'm sure you do
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when you're sack from your corporate job
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and they give you the Spiel you actually
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walk away feeling [ __ ] good about
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yourself
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and that by the way John Hart uh related
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the news to me in 99 I wasn't playing
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um telling you everything you can and
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can't do what they can and can't do for
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you until you walk away uh realizing
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that you win the team but to Heart his
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credit he gave me an opportunity
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gave me a chance and I was back on the
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99 Rugby World Cup squad my final year
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under John Hart so now only fun things
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to say about that man
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and boy you're going to have some fun
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and hear some stories yeah yeah it's
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nice isn't it yeah it is nice yeah so um
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yeah it was
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yeah I mean your corporate experience
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like you're a lifer at Fletcher's that
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must have prepared you well for those
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difficult conversations but um can't be
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ever easy telling someone
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um sorry you haven't made the cut never
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and uh anyone that finds who he finds
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out easy uh is a Savage is a Savage yeah
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I think um you know they're always
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really difficult conversations to have I
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always had a belief that Honesty was the
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most important thing I still do on those
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things I think it's really important
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that you tell people as it is
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um and you help them manage through it
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you know I mean it's um you it's not
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easy you know and and I remember those
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times with camo you know it was a
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difficult time your backs were having a
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tough time in 98
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um after two fantastic years of 96 and
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97. yeah 17 out of 18 years and um you
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know 98 was difficult we lost all our
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experience a lot of experience and uh
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you know we went through a lot of change
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and and a guy like camo
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um you know he showed his qualities
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because he stuck at a he believed in
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himself and he believed in the All
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Blacks and he got back in and he was
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always a real um he was a pro and you
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know you need those sort of leaders you
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need those sort of people and and at a
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time when I think
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um we lacked a bit of experience and
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Leadership because of 98 after 98 we're
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affect we effectively had lost after 97
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Fitzpatrick
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um Olo Browns and Sam Brook uh Frank
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Bunce uh Michael Jones I mean a huge
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amount of experience so people like camo
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who understood the history and
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understood what was you know needed to
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be a great all black was still very
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important to the game
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yeah so he obviously took that
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conversation well how did other players
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do players um
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they cry with the news does anyone get
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angry and defensive
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um look I'm not I'm not going to talk
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about those the odd one that did but yes
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some react
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um but in the end I think as long as
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you're honest and you believe in what
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you're saying
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um they go away and they they'll think
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it through and and look they'll never
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accept it you know they'll never pose on
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them it's a personal isn't it yeah it is
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I mean um greatest example for me was
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was back in the Auckland days and you
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know that great team in the 80 80 years
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80-0 um John McDermott
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um was playing for uh University
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um it was after you know it was a he
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played um he had a fantastic year he was
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playing well for Auckland and but I
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decided that the time had come for me to
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introduce a new player who I had huge
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hopes for and I had to tell John that
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you know I wasn't selecting him for this
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next game
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he was devastated and I I can appreciate
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it because he he'd done all he could do
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you know I couldn't ask for any more
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um and that player just happened to be
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Michael Jones and
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um you know Michael Jones came in and
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obviously career just took off
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um and I'll never forget that game
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because MCD was in the reserves and
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those days reserves didn't get on so
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he's sitting behind me and Michael Jones
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had a fantastic debut scored a few tries
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it looked absolutely brilliant and with
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about three minutes to go I get a whack
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on the back and it's from McDermott he
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said did you see that Hardy I said what
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Michael Jones you just missed a tackle
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so it's sort of you know and we're still
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great mates so you know that's
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um I think I think Honesty and people as
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long as you've got good reasons for your
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decisions I think you've got to you
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gotta and you've got to think about
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those decisions and make sure you get
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effectively yeah
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was did McDermott say he was available
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to play on Sundays well yeah
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I think it was one of the differences
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to play any day yeah so you've had uh
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two books out
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um Straight From the Heart and change of
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heart first one uh Straight From the
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Heart came up before you even got to
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coach the All Blacks and the last
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chapter of that book this um a sentence
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in there that I want to run through
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if the coach so this is before you got
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to coach the All Blacks if the coaching
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career which I never actively planned
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but which grew like Topsy and gave me a
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life gave my life a whole new dimension
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is in fact now over the good memories
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will fire out where the disappointments
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I've got three questions from that one
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sentence first of all what is topsy
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what is topsy is that a Wade yeah no I
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mean all careers are up and down oh you
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know
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okay yep okay not not the one you eat no
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no okay the ice block yeah yeah
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um next question uh you said the
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coaching career is one that you never
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actively planned
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into it well I never planned a coach
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I was um
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[Music]
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I did my first coaching
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um experience was when I was 18 and I
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coached at University and I coached my
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young brother's team
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um and so I got into coaching in that
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sense early but then I went into playing
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and I never thought about coaching until
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I went to wait a matter
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um when I switched away to matter in
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1970 had a couple of years there three
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years there and um then the coach
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retired and um the manager at the time
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Ray voxwich was a great old guy and a
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great great storyboard of way to matter
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and Newcastle lab rugby
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um he said to me why don't you be a
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player coach
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so I thought
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okay I'll I'll think about that and I
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got into it in 1974 I became player
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coach of waiter matter and I picked a
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very good assistant
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um DJ Graham
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um John Graham A Headmaster and great
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all black and uh
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um he and I had been involved in the
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Auckland team I was a reserve and I was
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never good enough to play really I was
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normally a reserver you're quite handy
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right you were never all black level I
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was an average halfback that um was
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lucky to get what I got you know um I
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think I was um I was a competitor and I
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think that got me a long way I didn't
00:13:00
have the skills I mean couldn't kick
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with my left foot couldn't pass with my
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left hand so you just wouldn't get by
00:13:05
today and there were those sort of
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things you know I thought I was pretty
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ordinary but I got a few games yeah but
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so he said I said would you come and
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help me and so he said well of course
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he's committed to the school but he came
00:13:16
and helped me I used to go and pick him
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up in the little mini on Tuesday and
00:13:19
Thursdays and drive out to waitemata and
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that's how my career started wasn't
00:13:23
planned at all and following year we won
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the Galleria won the championship so you
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know that got off to a pretty good start
00:13:29
and then so you weren't like a massive
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planner until I suppose it got to the
00:13:35
time where you were sort of in the all
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black fold did you just sort of like
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evolve and roll with opportunities that
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came your way well to be fair
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um
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planning and thinking ahead has always
00:13:45
been part of my life with Fletchers I
00:13:47
mean I was you know hugely involved in
00:13:51
the the growth of Fletcher's of the
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company and I learned and understood man
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management very early in my in my life
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and and so
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um coaching was coaching really
00:14:04
fell out of that because it usually used
00:14:07
many of the same skills that you require
00:14:09
in managing people in a business and
00:14:11
managing managing a football team and so
00:14:13
um you know it evolved from there and uh
00:14:16
I was really fortunate I guess I coached
00:14:19
way to matter for seven years or so and
00:14:22
then I managed to get the Auckland
00:14:24
Auckland job and and you know that was
00:14:27
that was a huge experience and
00:14:30
interesting thing looking back I mean I
00:14:32
was full-time employed by Fletcher
00:14:34
challenge as a employee relations
00:14:35
manager of that company and in those
00:14:37
days and it was it was a big company
00:14:39
right like one of the biggest companies
00:14:40
in New Zealand yeah it was the biggest
00:14:42
oh the biggest yeah well I I work for
00:14:44
Fletcher's initially I joined them in in
00:14:48
1967 or 66 and
00:14:52
then Fletcher challenge was formed when
00:14:54
Tasman Paul and paper challenge
00:14:56
Corporation and Fletcher's all came
00:14:58
together so as an amalgamation of three
00:14:59
of New Zealand's largest companies to
00:15:01
become New Zealand's largest company and
00:15:03
it was um you know one stage we employed
00:15:05
30 000 people around the world so it was
00:15:07
a it was a real big company and I led
00:15:09
that
00:15:09
HR function for many years towards
00:15:13
towards the end just while we're on the
00:15:14
fleetches thing towards the end it must
00:15:15
have been like you you were taking the
00:15:17
piss with the job and the respect that
00:15:19
like I've had Sue John [ __ ] on the
00:15:21
podcast and he talks about we'll get
00:15:22
into this he he talks about coming and
00:15:24
having a meeting with you with his dad
00:15:26
um so you were conduct you were just you
00:15:27
were coaching all right you were yeah it
00:15:29
was an office for your coaching job
00:15:35
sorry I have to ask you Fletcher I don't
00:15:36
think he would have seen it that way but
00:15:38
um look they merged you know it was I
00:15:41
mean I look back that's just not
00:15:43
possible today you couldn't do a job
00:15:45
like I had
00:15:47
yeah which was full time yeah full on
00:15:50
you know I mean I had a big a big role
00:15:53
in that company at that stage and here I
00:15:55
am coaching a a provincial team as well
00:15:57
I mean I don't know I often say to
00:16:00
myself how do I how did that happen I
00:16:01
don't know I don't know yeah we were you
00:16:04
just busy working burning the candle at
00:16:05
both ends like you you see I mean I was
00:16:08
joking before I was being cheeky you
00:16:09
were obviously doing the Fletcher stuff
00:16:10
well and the rugby stuff well well I had
00:16:12
to well so I wouldn't had either so um
00:16:14
yeah so so it absolutely wasn't one of
00:16:16
those you know when rugby was still
00:16:18
amateur and players were given token
00:16:19
jobs so you might have someone that's um
00:16:21
merchandising with Coke or whatever one
00:16:23
of one of the big advertisers wasn't
00:16:25
there it was a proper job yeah it was a
00:16:27
proper job yeah it wasn't
00:16:28
semi-professional no no it was it was
00:16:31
and um I I was lucky I guess I had
00:16:34
really good people around me I've always
00:16:35
been a great believer that if you want
00:16:38
to be successful you've got to surround
00:16:39
yourself by good people better than
00:16:40
yourself wherever you can get people a
00:16:42
bit on yourself in areas that they're in
00:16:44
and and and and and and look I had at
00:16:47
Fletcher's
00:16:48
um in those days I had a fantastic team
00:16:51
of people under me that running the HR
00:16:53
function
00:16:54
um and as a consequence you know that
00:16:57
helped
00:16:58
um because I could I could manage uh uh
00:17:00
and and I did the same thing
00:17:03
um with Auckland I make sure I got
00:17:05
really good people around me and um you
00:17:08
know tested the boundaries a bit by
00:17:10
challenging the system and and changing
00:17:12
the processes in terms of who would be a
00:17:14
manager how would a managed to be
00:17:16
selected I mean
00:17:17
um I wanted the best not just one of the
00:17:19
rest
00:17:20
um and so managed to get that changed
00:17:23
and something they'd done for 100 years
00:17:25
and pointed a delegate Club delegate was
00:17:27
always that they'd take turns at being
00:17:30
manager of the Auckland team and things
00:17:32
like that so I made sure that I you
00:17:35
can't succeed unless you have good
00:17:37
structure and good people yeah and and I
00:17:40
learned that early and I've always
00:17:41
practiced it and I do it today yeah how
00:17:44
good
00:17:45
yeah so the the so the John Cohen thing
00:17:48
he he told the story and I I get the you
00:17:51
know these um there's three versions to
00:17:52
every story right there's there's four
00:17:54
in his case
00:17:56
so I feel like it's a story that he's
00:17:58
told over the years and it's been
00:17:59
refined and it's um it's like a
00:18:01
punchline now yeah um but there's this
00:18:02
version of events your version of events
00:18:04
and Detroit's probably somewhere in the
00:18:05
middle
00:18:06
um but he said I'm paraphrasing here
00:18:08
there um he was a young player him and
00:18:10
his dad came to see you in your office
00:18:11
high up at Fletcher's yeah and you
00:18:13
wanted him to play in the Auckland B
00:18:15
Team yeah and his dad said no it's The A
00:18:17
Team or nothing and his dad's mentality
00:18:20
was um well if he plays in the B team
00:18:22
and plays badly it's the end of his
00:18:24
career if he plays in The A Team and he
00:18:26
plays badly it's like well come on he's
00:18:27
a boy in The A Team but you weren't the
00:18:30
sort of guy that suffers fools like
00:18:31
you're not going to be have your arm
00:18:33
Twisted by some upstart potential All
00:18:36
Blacks future All Blacks dad
00:18:39
yeah I think there's um there's
00:18:41
definitely two sides for that story
00:18:43
um and I'll have to um he's not far away
00:18:47
um look
00:18:48
JK was someone that I identified through
00:18:52
some colleagues
00:18:54
Eric Boggs was one who told me to watch
00:18:57
this young guy he'd seen him in a club
00:18:58
game so
00:19:00
um no I asked him to go on to watch John
00:19:02
Kerwin as an 18 year old playing for
00:19:05
Auckland third grade a university third
00:19:07
grade and he came back to me with
00:19:10
language Austin I went and watched him
00:19:12
again myself and he would not know no
00:19:14
one knew I was behind her but the end of
00:19:17
a field just just watching this kid play
00:19:19
you know in the uploads and and I said
00:19:22
wow I don't think I've ever seen
00:19:25
sort of things like it you know big
00:19:28
rangy skillful you know
00:19:31
presence had everything and so I I then
00:19:35
managed to get him into a game a
00:19:38
barbarian game
00:19:39
um which was opening I think it was a
00:19:41
messy Club rooms were being opened and
00:19:44
um they were having a a game and it was
00:19:46
a barbarian team playing I was involved
00:19:48
in a barbarian Club I got him in that
00:19:49
team played out played uh Joe Stanley
00:19:52
inside him
00:19:54
um to to look after him and whatever and
00:19:57
went really well and I I thought now
00:20:02
1983 was 100 years of Auckland rugby and
00:20:06
there were two teams being picked to
00:20:08
play a centennial fixture an Auckland a
00:20:11
team and an Auckland B team which I had
00:20:12
to pick both
00:20:14
um and and they were both playing Team
00:20:16
composite teams from around the country
00:20:17
so obviously the best team the Auckland
00:20:20
a team were playing all the All Blacks
00:20:22
and and you know from the provinces and
00:20:25
and the next life were in the B Team and
00:20:28
I decided that I wanted to play John but
00:20:31
I didn't want him to fail because I knew
00:20:33
at 18
00:20:35
um you know it was a huge risk because
00:20:37
he's coming from third grade he hadn't
00:20:39
played a senior game of rugby yeah so
00:20:40
I'm putting him into
00:20:42
so big boys yeah so I sort of um
00:20:45
came out with a strategy publicly which
00:20:47
said um
00:20:49
John as JK is going to represent the
00:20:51
Youth of Auckland in the Centennial so
00:20:55
if it didn't work you could go back to
00:20:57
third grade or go back to his Club if it
00:20:59
did he's on the way but so I predict him
00:21:02
his father actually never said no it's a
00:21:05
team or no I actually told his father I
00:21:08
was going to play him the B Team yeah
00:21:09
and then I went away and thought
00:21:12
if I'm going to make this kid successful
00:21:14
I got to put him with the best and so
00:21:16
having people like Gary Cunningham in
00:21:18
those days Joe Stanley with him was
00:21:21
probably very important so so there's a
00:21:23
little bit of a Twist there yeah yeah
00:21:25
they just comes to my office and we you
00:21:28
know we had a fantastic chat I mean and
00:21:30
John was a butcher's Apprentice
00:21:32
he could hardly write
00:21:35
I mean I've still got the note that he
00:21:37
wrote to me which I'm sure I'm not sure
00:21:38
just after not sure I understand what it
00:21:40
says now Peter but you know amazing why
00:21:43
have you keep that yeah just history
00:21:45
yeah are you are you um not not a
00:21:48
hoarder hoarder would suggest you've got
00:21:49
like rooms full of but are you like a
00:21:52
sentimentalist in a way yeah I'm a
00:21:53
sentimentalist and I I like to keep
00:21:56
things that are important to me and JK
00:21:58
was important to me I became a good
00:22:00
friend
00:22:01
at the time you kept this um shortly
00:22:03
written note you didn't you didn't know
00:22:05
the importance of or you didn't know
00:22:07
what he was going to come on no but I
00:22:09
had a view on him right I sort of you
00:22:11
just hang on to these notes just in case
00:22:13
I didn't get many
00:22:20
I know you're only half joking when you
00:22:22
say that I mean we started with those
00:22:24
voice notes from um Ian Jones
00:22:26
um but yeah is it a weird relationship
00:22:29
with coach and player like I'm guessing
00:22:30
there's some that you end up friends
00:22:31
with and sums that end up hating your
00:22:34
guts and then there's probably like a
00:22:35
large band in the middle yeah I I it's
00:22:37
probably that way yeah
00:22:39
um I'm really delighted that a lot of my
00:22:42
friends today Remain the team of the 80s
00:22:44
the Auckland team of the 80s I mean I
00:22:46
have a lot of uh personal friendships
00:22:48
that remain
00:22:50
um out of that team in the 80s
00:22:52
um so I always look back on that and
00:22:53
it's pretty special I mean
00:22:55
I coached the professional era and I
00:22:58
coach the Auckland team and we created a
00:23:00
very special Auckland team in the 80s
00:23:02
from nothing
00:23:03
um with a whole whole attitude to say
00:23:05
we're going to make this professional
00:23:07
professional didn't mean money
00:23:09
professional meant how it was organized
00:23:11
and planned and you know I gotta say out
00:23:15
of that came some wonderful friendships
00:23:18
some very you know fantastic players
00:23:21
um and if I ever look back at my career
00:23:22
the iron the ironic thing was I coached
00:23:26
them both to professional and the
00:23:27
amateur era yeah the most professional
00:23:30
team I ever coached was a team in the
00:23:32
80s the Auckland team which was amateur
00:23:34
and and I say that because they just had
00:23:37
such a we grew such a professional
00:23:39
attitude
00:23:41
um and we wanted to be the best and we
00:23:43
had great camaraderie and we did a whole
00:23:45
lot of new things introduced you know
00:23:47
bringing Partners to functions which had
00:23:49
never been allowed before we had a whole
00:23:52
attitude to to Growing growing a team
00:23:54
and and and I look back and you know in
00:23:57
those days we got
00:23:58
um a pair of boots and a tracksuit and
00:24:01
you handed the tracksuit back at the end
00:24:02
of the year that was that was it that
00:24:05
was you know
00:24:06
um and and no not ascent and and
00:24:11
um and I just look back with a lot of
00:24:12
pleasure and pride
00:24:14
um with the memories of the people that
00:24:16
we grew through that through that
00:24:18
Auckland team and they were a very
00:24:21
professional outfit
00:24:22
even if um John Kuhn was bringing Sev in
00:24:26
his own words like savaloys and lunch
00:24:28
into the absolutely but that was part of
00:24:31
that that was sort of part of the you
00:24:33
know you didn't have diets nutrition you
00:24:35
know if we didn't understand nutrition
00:24:36
there's none of that going on yeah so
00:24:39
yeah and I know it's all those were the
00:24:41
sorts of things that made it special you
00:24:42
know all the contributions made by so
00:24:45
many people you know it was fantastic I
00:24:47
love that I love that I actually read an
00:24:48
article the other day by chance about um
00:24:50
Steve McDowell and talking just about
00:24:51
what a Trailblazer he was because he was
00:24:52
in the gym before anyone else yeah so
00:24:54
this was a they weren't weightlifting
00:24:56
then per se no yeah I mean
00:24:59
we didn't know what Jim's worth yeah we
00:25:01
didn't you know I mean the team in the
00:25:02
80s we didn't know what a gym was we we
00:25:04
didn't train in gyms we trained around
00:25:07
the Rugby field in Iran and and it's
00:25:09
interesting you know that the dramatic
00:25:12
change in the body types
00:25:14
um you know as a result of
00:25:17
um the whole attitude the strength and
00:25:19
conditioning has totally changed yeah it
00:25:21
was all about Fitness it wasn't so much
00:25:23
about strength but
00:25:25
we seem to get by all right yeah you did
00:25:28
all right so speaking of that Auckland
00:25:30
Auckland um era which was just wildly
00:25:32
successful
00:25:34
um
00:25:34
do you think that's part of the reason
00:25:36
why you were so polarizing with a lot of
00:25:38
new zealanders yeah so I'm I'm thinking
00:25:41
like I wasn't even massively into rugby
00:25:43
but I was in um yeah Palmers North in
00:25:44
the 80s and 90s and there was definitely
00:25:46
an US versus them mentality like
00:25:48
aucklanders were called Jeffers yeah
00:25:49
just another [ __ ] aucklander yeah
00:25:51
there was that sort of Auckland like
00:25:53
sort of hatred in a way oh look I think
00:25:55
it was always there and I'd probably in
00:25:59
some people's minds epitomized um you
00:26:01
know Jeffer um because I I wasn't wasn't
00:26:04
shy to express an opinion uh or a view
00:26:07
and uh I had and I think people didn't
00:26:10
like that and then people don't like
00:26:11
success and uh you know tall poppy
00:26:14
syndrome yeah loud you know was very
00:26:17
much uh alive and well in those days and
00:26:20
uh it still is I think well it still is
00:26:22
and and so that that was that was tough
00:26:26
um didn't worry me at the time really
00:26:27
because I was more focused internally on
00:26:29
what we were doing rather than wanting
00:26:31
worrying what others were thinking
00:26:34
but it got brought home pretty much when
00:26:36
we went to Canterbury and in the 80s and
00:26:38
83 and 85 I mean yeah it was nasty it
00:26:43
wasn't good it wasn't good
00:26:45
oh I just remember a third question from
00:26:48
that uh Facebook so um uh yeah this is
00:26:51
your first book Straight From the Heart
00:26:53
um in the last chapter it says if the
00:26:54
coaching career which I never actively
00:26:55
planned but which grew like Topsy and
00:26:57
gave me a whole gave my life a whole new
00:26:58
dimensioners in fact now over the good
00:27:00
memories will uh outweigh the
00:27:02
disappointments
00:27:03
um so that was before you even coached
00:27:05
the All Blacks so sitting here now as a
00:27:07
77 year old man everything you went
00:27:08
through
00:27:09
um do the good memories far out where
00:27:10
the disappointments oh absolutely cool
00:27:12
yeah yeah oh no look I'm um
00:27:15
I'm really proud of what what I managed
00:27:19
to achieve and who I worked with and and
00:27:21
and and and I love the game and I love
00:27:24
New Zealand I'm a passionate kiwi yeah
00:27:26
and I'm a passionate rugby person and uh
00:27:29
look I just was so honored to coach the
00:27:31
All Blacks um ultimately but if it
00:27:34
hadn't happened I'd had such a great
00:27:35
time with Auckland I coached New Zealand
00:27:37
colts for four years and unbeaten and
00:27:40
and you know I had a whole run of uh you
00:27:42
know success between before I coached
00:27:43
the all backs again I never thought I'd
00:27:45
coach Silverbacks in the end
00:27:47
um you know I got rejected and oh Time
00:27:50
and Time really three times okay let's
00:27:52
get into that because um I think it says
00:27:54
something about um you know persistence
00:27:56
and dogged determination and resilience
00:28:01
I don't know just like a man with like
00:28:03
laser Precision Focus I think they knew
00:28:05
exactly what he wanted so you were um
00:28:08
like assistant coach in 87 when we won
00:28:10
the first World Cup you're one of the
00:28:12
part of the coaching yeah yeah
00:28:14
Brian Lahore was the coach and Alex
00:28:17
Wiley and I were brought in as new
00:28:19
selectors 86 with a horror year remember
00:28:21
that was the Cavaliers year and they'd
00:28:23
gone to France at the end of the year
00:28:24
and hadn't had a lot of success and and
00:28:26
we had a World Cup in March so new
00:28:28
selector new selection panel got picked
00:28:30
uh in October of 80
00:28:34
um of 86 and Alex and I were Alex was
00:28:38
very successful with Canterbury I was
00:28:39
very sorry Alex yeah and um we came
00:28:43
together with um and we were assistant
00:28:45
coaches to to
00:28:47
um to Brian and he did a brilliant job
00:28:49
in leading that World Cup but I think we
00:28:52
had fantastic influence
00:28:54
um particularly in selection
00:28:57
um because Brian
00:28:59
you know was involved in the team in 86
00:29:01
and probably was more committed to the
00:29:03
Past Alex and I had a very little
00:29:07
um surprise some people we had a very
00:29:09
common view on selection
00:29:11
um and you know we worked hard to create
00:29:14
a great squad for that um World Cup
00:29:17
um and I think I look back you know and
00:29:19
I think when we were about
00:29:21
four months out in the world cup so that
00:29:23
was that was just probably January
00:29:27
we wrote down our teams
00:29:29
and ultimately Alex and I got I think we
00:29:32
both got 23 and 24 out of the 26. wow
00:29:35
and I think Brian got about 17. so that
00:29:39
said we had a lot of influence together
00:29:42
in sort of forcing change and players
00:29:44
like Michael Jones who hadn't been heard
00:29:46
of was all of a sudden elevated and and
00:29:49
we had to get we tried we decided we
00:29:51
wanted to play a game at different speed
00:29:53
and a different style from what had been
00:29:55
traditional and so a lot of the older
00:29:57
All Blacks are traditional props and
00:29:59
locks uh you know got bypassed and we
00:30:01
picked a really mobile aggressive team
00:30:04
and and so I look back on that as you
00:30:06
know fun when we're in the North Island
00:30:08
I would be coaching helping Brian when
00:30:11
we're in the South Island Alex Wood
00:30:13
coach we were never there together he
00:30:14
didn't want too many voices and he's
00:30:15
probably right on that I think he was a
00:30:17
pretty good judge Brian I think
00:30:19
what was the um Dynamic like with you
00:30:22
and griswali at the time you you
00:30:23
couldn't imagine two more different
00:30:24
human beings yeah no look um there's
00:30:26
been a lot written about us as being you
00:30:28
know totally apart and you know I hate
00:30:32
personality clashing
00:30:34
um I have a huge respect for Grizz um I
00:30:37
saw what he did with Canterbury uh and
00:30:40
and I think he had a mutual respect we
00:30:43
had very similar attitudes to selection
00:30:46
but we were totally different in the way
00:30:48
you manage people and what you did and
00:30:51
and so you know
00:30:53
when we came when we're put together it
00:30:56
wasn't going to work because totally
00:30:58
different philosophies of how to get the
00:31:00
best out of people or whatever and I'm
00:31:02
not saying he was right and I was yeah
00:31:03
wrong or vice versa they were totally
00:31:06
different been very successful in our
00:31:08
own ways but you put them together as
00:31:11
the New Zealand Union decided to do a 91
00:31:13
after you know things weren't looking
00:31:15
too good before the World Cup it was
00:31:16
doomed to fail because
00:31:19
um you know it just we were very
00:31:21
different but huge respect always will
00:31:24
have that and uh we'll retain that
00:31:26
forever
00:31:27
um so when you see each other now both
00:31:30
both like senior men and the Twilight
00:31:32
years really um what's it like well I
00:31:34
don't see a lot of them but I sent him a
00:31:36
note in fact I was watching him sweat
00:31:38
and forget ads and uh and and I see they
00:31:42
were they were they had all these old
00:31:44
players and I I decided to contact them
00:31:46
and said I rang them I texted him and
00:31:48
said look I we haven't spoken for a
00:31:50
while but and but I've got gray here and
00:31:53
I reckon I'd make your team if you're
00:31:54
looking for someone to join you and you
00:31:55
wait and forget the team give me a call
00:31:57
so uh and he came back so that's
00:31:59
fantastic I mean look
00:32:02
um the media wrote A Lot in those days
00:32:06
um about that conflict and they made a
00:32:10
lot more of it than it was but there was
00:32:11
no doubt there was differences so
00:32:13
there's no point in me trying to I'm not
00:32:14
sugar coating it so you weren't you
00:32:16
weren't best mates you weren't sharing a
00:32:17
room no no I mean I couldn't quite keep
00:32:19
up with drinking okay
00:32:21
okay all right while we're on this so
00:32:24
that was the um yeah so during the 80s
00:32:26
so you never won um the World Cup we'll
00:32:29
get to that later as as um the head
00:32:31
coach but did did you sort of feel like
00:32:33
the 87 success was partially yours oh I
00:32:36
think so yeah and I think those involved
00:32:38
would say that Alex and I made a real
00:32:40
contribution and I know we did yeah um I
00:32:42
think we did in many ways um so um
00:32:45
although it was really interesting I
00:32:46
mean the New Zealand Union uh treated
00:32:49
you very differently you like when they
00:32:51
had the photo of a team we weren't
00:32:54
allowed to be in the photo oh is that
00:32:55
right no coaches yeah no no Brian was
00:32:58
but not us okay so the two selectors and
00:33:00
assistants weren't in the photo you know
00:33:02
so
00:33:03
um don't have an official record of it
00:33:04
actually but you know we yeah I'm sure
00:33:09
we may help to make a difference and and
00:33:12
I'm sure Alex and I and Brian uh we work
00:33:15
really well together and and that's to
00:33:18
Brian's great credit that he managed to
00:33:20
manage the personalities and got the
00:33:22
best out of both of us and I think uh
00:33:25
the success of World Cup was very much
00:33:26
about his leadership of the three of us
00:33:28
and then so the next all black coach
00:33:31
after that that was Laurie Maines yeah
00:33:32
you you guys you guys hated each other
00:33:34
right well
00:33:40
um at the end of 87 we went on a tour to
00:33:43
Japan I took the New Zealand team to
00:33:44
Japan and he was my assistant coach and
00:33:46
when we came back
00:33:48
the politics took over and um it was
00:33:50
always going to be Grizzle not me and he
00:33:52
got appointed and then so Grizzly went
00:33:55
through to to
00:33:57
um 91 and then after 91.
00:34:01
um
00:34:03
unfortunately because of what happened
00:34:05
on the tour of 91 I should never have
00:34:07
gone as a co-coach I was uh I have to
00:34:11
say I was told if I didn't there would
00:34:13
be the end of my aspirations right and
00:34:15
so I was putting a pretty invidious
00:34:17
position and I still damned if you do
00:34:19
Dan yeah I still wanted to coach
00:34:21
jewelbacks but it never worked it never
00:34:23
worked it was a it was a disappointment
00:34:25
the all backs weren't actually going
00:34:26
well that year I don't think putting me
00:34:29
in there helped out all
00:34:31
um because Alex didn't really want me
00:34:32
there and I don't blame him I mean I
00:34:34
don't want you wouldn't want someone put
00:34:35
upon you um and all of a sudden he's a
00:34:38
co-coach not the coach and so at the end
00:34:40
of 91
00:34:41
um because we lost that World Cup
00:34:44
um I think consequences were that
00:34:48
those those that didn't like me had an
00:34:50
excuse again and um away I went again
00:34:52
Into the Wilderness
00:34:54
yeah Wilderness and what did that look
00:34:56
like Wilderness for a couple of years
00:34:58
um well yeah because I got out of
00:35:00
coaching really uh did you you see you
00:35:02
go you go home what do you say to your
00:35:04
family like they'd said I'm done well I
00:35:06
didn't say or done
00:35:07
um I I sort of kept involved in the game
00:35:10
on the peripheral of it but um you know
00:35:12
I Victory when I came back into coaching
00:35:14
you all backs in 96 I'd been about three
00:35:16
years out of coaching so it was a huge
00:35:18
step but I think the whole
00:35:21
um you know Laurie went through good and
00:35:23
bad times uh in 94 things weren't
00:35:26
traveling too well when I got asked to
00:35:27
stand again because I was thinking
00:35:29
you're making a change to the coach and
00:35:31
they've it was close but they didn't
00:35:35
change so I missed an 87 91 94 so 95
00:35:40
came along it was a big risk yeah so in
00:35:42
those years we we weren't doing any
00:35:43
coaching you were you were commentating
00:35:45
right I did a lot of commentating yeah I
00:35:47
heard a and you never know if any of
00:35:49
these things are true um but I heard
00:35:51
that when Laurie Maines would watch like
00:35:53
repeats of the game on VHS he had to
00:35:55
have the volume down because he couldn't
00:35:56
stand your voice is that have you heard
00:35:59
that I wouldn't surprise me really
00:36:03
he's a Southern Man he's a southern man
00:36:06
yeah so was that a frosty relationship
00:36:08
with you too or it was never hurt I
00:36:10
don't know really yeah we didn't really
00:36:12
have a lot to do with each other I mean
00:36:14
um he I mean he he said he's really
00:36:17
committed and he gave everything he had
00:36:19
um you know uh we we had our we had our
00:36:23
differences
00:36:25
um you know but when I got the all-back
00:36:26
job I first bought a call I went down to
00:36:28
see him because I wanted to pick his
00:36:30
brains and get an exchange information
00:36:32
and he was very helpful in that regard
00:36:34
so yeah you moved forward yeah if you
00:36:37
see each other now how would it be
00:36:38
absolutely no problem at all see my golf
00:36:40
down at the hills occasionally so yeah
00:36:42
does it go all right you kick his ass
00:36:43
off no I couldn't
00:36:45
he's too good for me at golf right so
00:36:47
then you you finally get the the all
00:36:50
black job
00:36:51
um and
00:36:53
you know you must I don't know it must
00:36:55
have been a frustrating time for you
00:36:56
because you you knew your skill said you
00:36:59
knew your qualifications you knew on
00:37:01
many occasions you were the right guy
00:37:03
for the job you keep getting overlooked
00:37:06
that must have pissed you off
00:37:08
I'm like or or I mean did you feel like
00:37:11
defeated heartbroken angry all of us
00:37:14
yeah yeah all of us I mean I went
00:37:16
through a lot of you know I thought on
00:37:18
87 uh I'd probably done enough to
00:37:22
be the coach
00:37:24
um but
00:37:25
um the council decided it was very
00:37:28
political dominant was the whole
00:37:30
selection process was terribly political
00:37:32
it was who you know I mean it wasn't
00:37:36
about I mean we didn't even get
00:37:37
interviewed in those days I mean it was
00:37:39
just it was just politicking who you
00:37:42
know and who you who who who which
00:37:45
Council was like to and which councils
00:37:46
didn't and eventually in 95 there was a
00:37:51
far more formal process
00:37:53
um and I think that helped me because
00:37:54
you know I was used to that sort of
00:37:56
thing and um I think
00:37:59
um in the end you know there were quite
00:38:01
a few people standing in in 95
00:38:04
um for that all black job
00:38:06
um but I think probably my
00:38:10
my presentation helped me my background
00:38:12
helped me and it's a bit it's a bit like
00:38:16
Karma's alluded to I guess
00:38:18
um this was coaching the all backs in 96
00:38:21
was dramatically different from coaching
00:38:23
your backs in 95. from amateur versus
00:38:26
professional yeah yeah yeah and I
00:38:27
suppose you had the professional skill
00:38:29
set from your years yeah so I think that
00:38:30
helped you know and um so and finally
00:38:33
finally got it and it was fantastic it
00:38:36
was on my 50th birthday yeah yeah
00:38:40
um yeah December 6 December 6th December
00:38:43
6 1995 and um there's another thing that
00:38:46
I from a personal perspective that I
00:38:47
like about this I 10 50 this year and
00:38:49
it's um I feel like I'm just getting
00:38:51
started like I feel like Life's a sports
00:38:53
game and first half's over now it's into
00:38:55
the second half and here you are 50
00:38:57
years old Just Landing the you know one
00:38:59
of the biggest jobs in the country it's
00:39:01
bloody awesome it's cool yeah you in
00:39:03
competitors like Graham Henry you were
00:39:04
young when you got the job yeah well it
00:39:06
was sort of um
00:39:08
um well imagine getting if I'd go to
00:39:10
back in you know 87 you know you were 39
00:39:13
38 so
00:39:15
in many ways probably was the right time
00:39:17
you know more experience and I was a
00:39:19
better Coach and probably better
00:39:21
equipped than I was then so I'm still
00:39:23
probably learning
00:39:25
um so I think you know
00:39:27
to hear that day to get the phone call
00:39:30
at my office and we're celebrating my
00:39:32
birthday at the office and uh got the
00:39:34
phone call and and then to go home and
00:39:36
have 50 60 of your best best mates there
00:39:39
for your 50th birthday that's what was
00:39:40
all planned to we had no idea that that
00:39:42
was the day the all black coach was
00:39:44
going to be announced and um wow it
00:39:48
turned in quite a party
00:39:50
yeah yeah and um and what a run like you
00:39:53
you referenced this before the first
00:39:54
couple of years 17 out of 18. and I feel
00:39:56
like being um
00:39:58
so um Auckland Centric or at least the
00:40:01
Nationwide perception you
00:40:03
you had to be winning every game you you
00:40:05
had to that was the only outcome
00:40:07
acceptable really yeah it was under
00:40:08
pressure to yeah I can't imagine the
00:40:11
expectation but um you know I think we
00:40:14
we did manage the move to
00:40:16
professionalism really well I mean once
00:40:19
I got the job I did a lot of study on
00:40:21
what made professional teams successful
00:40:24
and I studied NFL and and and and and
00:40:27
and and basketball and I looked at major
00:40:30
sports and that had gone professional
00:40:32
and I learned quickly that there were so
00:40:35
many pitfalls for players and coaches
00:40:37
and administrators and it sort of scared
00:40:41
me a bit and I thought I don't think we
00:40:44
really understand what professionalism
00:40:45
is because it's not just turning up
00:40:47
today and now you're paid and yesterday
00:40:49
you weren't um as I said earlier all the
00:40:52
responsibilities and everything changes
00:40:53
and the whole media attitude changes
00:40:55
everything you know you you you're in
00:40:57
you're in the face so
00:40:59
one of the things I did in February was
00:41:02
hold a seminar
00:41:04
where I talked about the role and the
00:41:07
responsibilities of professionalism and
00:41:09
I brought a group of speakers together
00:41:11
from all walks of different walks of
00:41:13
like Paul Paul Holmes from the media oh
00:41:16
yeah yeah Doug Macias who was in the
00:41:18
chief executive of lion Nathan Ricky
00:41:20
Ellison the American footballer New
00:41:23
Zealand based um who who won um who
00:41:26
who'd won Super Bowls um in America I
00:41:29
brought him out to speak
00:41:31
and had all sorts of
00:41:33
discussions going on in terms of just
00:41:36
alluding this is just this is different
00:41:38
and you've all got to understand you
00:41:41
know if you now paid 200 000 a year when
00:41:45
you were paid nothing last year you got
00:41:47
to learn to live off 50 or 60 and save
00:41:50
save the rest and start to build build
00:41:52
the future you know because there was
00:41:54
none of that none of that thinking and I
00:41:56
I saw young guys just wasting money
00:41:58
consumed by families taking whatever you
00:42:01
know um so
00:42:04
I think that was really important to
00:42:06
address those issues and a lot of those
00:42:08
issues you know I mean when you look at
00:42:10
some of those Sports the rate of divorce
00:42:12
the suicide alcoholism or gambling all
00:42:16
those things that
00:42:18
um were very very dangerous
00:42:20
um and still still are out there in many
00:42:22
ways we're challenges that we all had to
00:42:24
be aware of and and most importantly we
00:42:27
had to understand that we had a
00:42:28
responsibility to perform on and off the
00:42:31
field you were no longer it was no
00:42:33
longer acceptable to be anything but
00:42:36
presented well off the field
00:42:38
yeah that kind of I mean you hear about
00:42:40
Lotto winners that have no financial
00:42:42
literacy and then they come to this
00:42:43
large sum of money and then it's gone
00:42:45
within a couple of years and I suppose
00:42:46
it's the same sort of thing maybe a bit
00:42:48
of easy come easy go but
00:42:50
um
00:42:50
there was so many stories about Jonah
00:42:52
over those years like the team bus would
00:42:54
stop in a different town and had go to a
00:42:55
Harvey Norman or selectrics or whatever
00:42:57
it was and buy like a boom box for the
00:42:59
bus or there'd be a young player in
00:43:01
Wellington that'd take under his wing
00:43:02
and buy a car
00:43:04
um so you didn't do a good job coaching
00:43:05
him about them
00:43:10
let's talk about him because um like
00:43:12
from the outside that seems like the
00:43:14
most um the the most unusual Dynamic
00:43:17
ever like here you are middle age middle
00:43:20
age white New Zealand man
00:43:22
um this phenomenon of the sport a Tongan
00:43:25
giant from South Auckland
00:43:27
um yeah there's a photo in your book of
00:43:28
you and him talking on the field and you
00:43:30
were the spokesperson at the funeral for
00:43:31
the family when when he passed away so
00:43:33
it must have been um a special relate I
00:43:35
always wondered about that the
00:43:36
relationship because I thought maybe
00:43:39
um maybe you you dealt with Jonah
00:43:41
through I don't know like Frank bantz or
00:43:42
era crash or something but you and Jonah
00:43:45
had quite a quite a good one-on-one
00:43:46
relationship yeah we did and we worked
00:43:49
at that
00:43:50
um oh look he how you would have had
00:43:52
nothing in common though no not a lot
00:43:53
just that you both want to win but
00:43:56
um he was a phenomenon phenomenon he was
00:43:58
just unbelievable it's a it's a what he
00:44:00
could do
00:44:02
I look back on his career and you know
00:44:04
he was playing at his Peak probably
00:44:07
because it was Health probably at 60 or
00:44:09
70 percent maximum ability and because
00:44:12
of his restrictions
00:44:14
um imagine what he would have been like
00:44:15
for The Hundreds so now he was fantastic
00:44:18
and he came out of obviously came out of
00:44:21
the World Cup in 95 as a superstar yeah
00:44:23
and he was the face of rugby and um and
00:44:27
I saw that firsthand because I was over
00:44:29
there uh doing the TV commentaries at
00:44:33
the Rugby World Cup so I saw what this
00:44:35
phenomenon and what what it was and it
00:44:37
was quickly evident to me that you
00:44:40
needed to protect them because he was
00:44:43
just being pulled from Pillar To Post
00:44:45
everyone wanted a bit of Jonah and so
00:44:48
and of course we went to Africa in 96
00:44:51
which was you know probably one of my
00:44:53
greatest memories of coaching the
00:44:55
orbacks was winning that Series in South
00:44:56
Africa and Jonah
00:44:59
um had come off what a super career in
00:45:02
95 and was struggling with injuries and
00:45:06
obviously struggling it was a kidney
00:45:08
kidney problem which I didn't know about
00:45:09
but was obviously then affecting him but
00:45:12
he had a knee injury on that too so he
00:45:14
never really Sean he he was only he got
00:45:17
on the reserve bench once in our test
00:45:18
Series in there
00:45:20
um you know he just wasn't quite what he
00:45:22
was but I used to watch the public just
00:45:26
adored him and and we had to we had to
00:45:29
put people around him to protect them
00:45:30
really to keep to to give them so he
00:45:32
could could live a life because
00:45:34
otherwise his life was consumed
00:45:36
um look we kept we kept contact
00:45:39
um you know we we were at as you say
00:45:43
we're very different different people
00:45:44
hard to imagine two more different
00:45:46
things yeah but we had a fantastic
00:45:47
relationship and uh actually am I'm am I
00:45:50
um just imagining this or on one of his
00:45:52
homes TV show appearances were you there
00:45:54
sitting next to us yeah yeah yeah yeah
00:45:55
20 marriage broke up
00:45:58
and uh so when he no when he when he got
00:46:01
married without telling his parents no
00:46:02
no no no no no yeah sorry yeah I think
00:46:05
I'm trying to think back right I'm
00:46:07
getting old
00:46:08
it's a long time ago yeah yeah yeah but
00:46:11
it was one time when uh I went on the
00:46:14
home show with him to help
00:46:16
um explain and help him through a
00:46:18
situation I think it was the wedding
00:46:20
that the parents didn't know about
00:46:21
you're right yeah
00:46:23
but you know we had that trust and
00:46:25
respect and uh you know I just um you
00:46:29
know tragic the way his life ended so
00:46:31
early and um yeah very much so and then
00:46:33
to hear about the financial stuff
00:46:34
afterwards uh yeah it's just sad all
00:46:36
round that was a sad sad finish to a
00:46:38
great career yeah that's not nice to
00:46:40
hear that you guys had that sort of um
00:46:42
special relationship with one
00:46:44
yeah how do you like how do you coach
00:46:46
someone like him everyone talked about
00:46:47
how he was had no defensive skill yeah
00:46:49
well I think with some of those players
00:46:52
you don't try to overcoach them yeah
00:46:54
just um play what's in front of them and
00:46:56
let them do what's natural but they have
00:46:58
to understand they've got to do the dark
00:47:00
side of a game sometimes as well you
00:47:02
know what's that the tackling the Dirty
00:47:03
Work you got to tackle and uh you know
00:47:05
those those things are a bit different
00:47:07
so but
00:47:08
um he was look
00:47:11
he always struggled with his Fitness
00:47:12
because obviously of a kidney I mean he
00:47:15
he was the worst at doing you know the
00:47:18
the the running test that we used to do
00:47:21
um you know he you know he just he
00:47:23
didn't have a stamina and I've seen many
00:47:27
times at the end of this particular
00:47:28
exercise we used to do to to test
00:47:30
everyone you know Sunni and Frank Bunce
00:47:34
Sean going back and running running with
00:47:37
him to get him across the Finishing Line
00:47:39
because they all wanted him to play and
00:47:40
they wanted them to succeed little did
00:47:43
we know what was going on with his body
00:47:44
yeah so that must have been frustrating
00:47:45
like at the time I'm guessing um but you
00:47:49
don't even have to admit this but you
00:47:50
must have been like [ __ ] is this guy
00:47:51
lazy what's he been doing on the off
00:47:53
season must have been incredibly
00:47:55
frustrating what's frustrating and then
00:47:56
that's what I started to wonder I did I
00:47:58
I sort of said as he really does he
00:48:00
really watching what's he about you know
00:48:02
because he just wasn't he couldn't do it
00:48:04
the doctor would always my very good
00:48:07
friend John May who who was his doctor
00:48:09
he was in an ambidious position because
00:48:11
he wasn't able to tell me but he was a
00:48:13
team so Jonah knew it had been diagnosed
00:48:16
at this point but he was keeping it a
00:48:17
secret yeah they were trying to manage
00:48:18
it right and uh then following it
00:48:20
finally in 97 at all all came out 96.97
00:48:24
yeah said you had some good players and
00:48:26
in that time didn't you you had like
00:48:28
Jeff Wilson at his prime kalietta's
00:48:30
prime merts Marshall yeah you look back
00:48:32
at guys like
00:48:34
Justin Andrew Mertens Frank Bunce he was
00:48:38
a Legend
00:48:39
um Jeff Wilson
00:48:42
um Christian Cullen
00:48:44
you know
00:48:46
Jonah Lomo and then you go that's before
00:48:48
you go to the forwards and then you go
00:48:50
to brookton's and Brook probably one of
00:48:52
the most skillful rugby players that's
00:48:55
ever played the game Michael Jones Josh
00:48:57
kronfeld
00:48:58
Ian Jones
00:49:00
Robin Brook Sean Fitzpatrick Olo Brown
00:49:03
cranked out man that 96 team was pretty
00:49:06
special a hell of a team that was a hell
00:49:08
of a team were you were you coaching I
00:49:10
forget what game it was when's any
00:49:11
scored a drop goal from best part of
00:49:14
halfway well is that during your scored
00:49:16
two big drop goals as a coach even
00:49:19
though he landed them do you do you tell
00:49:20
him off for that or afterwards you're
00:49:22
like what the [ __ ] well we were playing
00:49:24
we're in Pretoria and we'd won the first
00:49:27
test of a series and it was a three-tier
00:49:29
series
00:49:30
and as you know no one had ever won a
00:49:33
series in South Africa before
00:49:34
in Pretoria we had to win to win the
00:49:38
series or if we lost we went to the last
00:49:41
game in Johannesburg which was going to
00:49:43
be a hell of a hell of a hell of a
00:49:45
mountain for us because we played eight
00:49:47
11 tests in 13 weeks 14 weeks so it was
00:49:50
really we were coming to the end of it
00:49:52
and we were just in front and
00:49:56
I see zinni
00:49:59
getting himself positioned behind the
00:50:01
Buddy rack and I I think no because the
00:50:08
backs were in front of him and I thought
00:50:09
no gets it charged down seven points at
00:50:13
the other end of the field should I have
00:50:16
worried straight between the first
00:50:19
he was a legend a number eight
00:50:21
dropkicking goals you know yeah
00:50:28
and and what about um Kelly my old man
00:50:31
like how do you how do you coach someone
00:50:33
like that apart from maybe not be so
00:50:34
selfish with the ball and pass it a bit
00:50:36
more like oh look Kelly was just a
00:50:38
natural
00:50:40
um probably the most brilliant gifted
00:50:43
footballer that I saw in my time in just
00:50:45
terms of Brilliance
00:50:46
um the best football I ever saw was um
00:50:49
Michael Jones I think all around but
00:50:52
Kelly was exceptional had exceptional
00:50:55
speed
00:50:56
um the tries he scored early on you know
00:50:59
I mean
00:51:00
he probably suffered a little bit and uh
00:51:02
as the game changed a bit and and and
00:51:05
and it became a two pivot game more
00:51:07
fullback had to come up and do a lot
00:51:09
more of the reading and running a game
00:51:11
that wasn't his strength he was an
00:51:13
instinctive player
00:51:14
um you know he just did things naturally
00:51:16
and he was brilliant and um you know
00:51:19
9607 he he had some fantastic moments
00:51:23
for us so he he scored tries That You
00:51:25
Don't See yeah uh yeah I I you know I
00:51:28
have huge respect for him
00:51:30
um you know
00:51:32
1999 moved him to Center
00:51:35
criticized you know big blue I had Jonah
00:51:40
Tana
00:51:41
um Jeff Wilson and um
00:51:44
and Cully and and for
00:51:47
just brilliant or the best you could
00:51:50
have and we didn't have a center and so
00:51:53
I worked on Christian's game to say that
00:51:57
he was there now
00:51:58
we lost the World Cup because of that so
00:52:01
say the experts there was no way we lost
00:52:03
it oh but there was no way because we
00:52:06
shifted him to Santa yeah that didn't
00:52:08
cost us I'd look back at those games he
00:52:10
played well and that wasn't a problem at
00:52:11
all
00:52:12
um we lost the game because we probably
00:52:13
just weren't good enough in the in the
00:52:16
all-round leadership Stakes uh to when
00:52:18
the when the crunch came
00:52:20
yeah that's got to be annoying hey the
00:52:22
um
00:52:23
Monday morning coaches or you know
00:52:26
armchair quarterbacks whatever whatever
00:52:28
you want to call them it's that's going
00:52:30
to be frustrating as [ __ ] yeah well and
00:52:32
and invariably Don people got no idea
00:52:36
about the background of these things you
00:52:37
know and they they just look at it very
00:52:39
simply are you playing them out of
00:52:41
position yeah he's out of position you
00:52:42
know well who said he's not a natural at
00:52:45
that position as well you know um and
00:52:48
like I defend that you know I look back
00:52:50
probably I probably when I look back
00:52:52
maybe Tana might have been a better
00:52:55
Center straight Center than um than
00:52:58
Christian entitled did end up there
00:53:00
um so you know that would be probably
00:53:02
you know I'd admit that but at the time
00:53:05
hindsight's a pointless game though yeah
00:53:07
it doesn't prove much you can't do much
00:53:09
with it but um I don't have any regrets
00:53:11
in that way I mean I you know I I think
00:53:14
um you know Kelly Kelly would have been
00:53:16
he would have found that tough I think
00:53:19
um but you know he's he's a guy that
00:53:21
I've watched grow to I think he's he's
00:53:23
growing beyond the you know out of a
00:53:26
game he's grown a lot more as a person
00:53:28
than he was in the game and um you know
00:53:30
I mean I think back to when we won the
00:53:32
series in Africa in 96 and he was
00:53:33
brilliant at fullback but he had really
00:53:36
no appreciation of winning the series in
00:53:38
South Africa and that's not his fault he
00:53:39
was a young man you know uh so it
00:53:42
probably was lost on him at the time you
00:53:45
know he couldn't work out why he would
00:53:47
be saying well
00:53:49
um Don Clark came up to him in the uh
00:53:52
because I know this happened Don Clark
00:53:54
came up to him as the players were
00:53:56
coming off in the tunnel after Pretoria
00:53:58
and Don Clark was had tears streaming
00:54:01
down his eyes and wanted to meet
00:54:02
Christian Cullen
00:54:03
now I don't think Kelly would have known
00:54:05
who Don Clark was yeah because that's
00:54:08
just uh you know he was a young man and
00:54:10
uh
00:54:11
um just uh where Don Clark was obviously
00:54:13
in our time and before you know a a
00:54:16
giant of the game and and he just loved
00:54:20
the fact we'd finally won in Africa
00:54:22
because he tried and failed and uh and I
00:54:25
still see that photo of Christian
00:54:26
looking at him sort of who's this guy
00:54:28
why is she crying
00:54:31
oh that's scary yeah okay so then came
00:54:34
the um the 1999 uh Rugby World Cup which
00:54:38
um I don't know I suppose I was going to
00:54:40
say it's bittersweet but it's probably
00:54:41
just better actually mainly better yeah
00:54:44
I don't think there was much sweet in it
00:54:45
so um so see you so the All Blacks lost
00:54:48
to France in the semi-final yeah and
00:54:51
then um in the player for third or
00:54:52
fourth which nobody wants we lost to
00:54:54
Africa yeah
00:54:55
um I think yeah just moving forward
00:54:59
before we pack on this for a bit so for
00:55:01
you as an ex-coach in 2003 and 2007 when
00:55:04
new blacks don't win is there a little
00:55:06
bit of relief in you like it see it is
00:55:09
no relief you know what I mean you want
00:55:11
them to work yeah yeah but you say well
00:55:13
I hope people understand it's not that
00:55:15
easy yes you know um and you're just
00:55:18
there's no you don't have a god-given
00:55:20
right to be because we're supposedly the
00:55:22
best team God given right to win a World
00:55:24
Cup it never happens that way so um yeah
00:55:27
99 was tough really tough because we'd
00:55:30
come off the back of a really hard year
00:55:32
in 98 because we'd lost five tiers three
00:55:35
of them by that much
00:55:36
um you know and and it was hard but 99
00:55:39
we we got our act back together pretty
00:55:41
well
00:55:42
um we stabilized that we had a really
00:55:44
good success we won the tri Nations we
00:55:46
thrashed Australia thrashed South Africa
00:55:47
and you know in the tri Nations
00:55:50
um and then had a loss to Australia in
00:55:53
the last game before we went to to uh
00:55:56
the World Cup and look we just I don't
00:55:59
know we we we're okay at the World Cup
00:56:02
um we had some big wins
00:56:04
um but coming into France I I was always
00:56:07
worried about France and I remember
00:56:10
a saying I had was expect the unexpected
00:56:12
and I talked about it in that for that
00:56:15
game because I I thought that's what you
00:56:16
had to prepare for
00:56:18
um because they were they'll do anything
00:56:20
and look
00:56:23
by half time we were dominant
00:56:26
um and I still got my team talk that I
00:56:29
had on my my on my um on my program
00:56:32
telling what we should do which was just
00:56:36
screw them into the corners and don't
00:56:37
give them anything
00:56:39
we didn't do that we ran the ball we
00:56:42
dropped the ball we we gave them turned
00:56:44
over position and they had 20 minutes of
00:56:47
magical rugby where nothing went wrong
00:56:51
every bounce just went their way
00:56:53
everything went against us and the game
00:56:55
turned and
00:56:57
we had a young Captain young leadership
00:57:00
group and I don't know right yeah and I
00:57:03
think uh it's not his fault I'm not
00:57:05
blaming him what I'm saying but we had a
00:57:06
young leadership group generally and as
00:57:09
a result of that we just didn't really
00:57:11
handle the turnaround and and in the end
00:57:14
we got beaten and you know that was that
00:57:17
was tragic because we we really were a
00:57:19
better side
00:57:20
far better side than France we should
00:57:22
have won and had we won the same thing
00:57:24
could be said about was it 2007
00:57:25
absolutely yeah yeah yeah absolutely I
00:57:27
mean bloody free tickets one game yeah
00:57:29
you know and French again look what's
00:57:31
coming up you know look at it let's not
00:57:34
look at this [ __ ] I think I think it's
00:57:36
fantastic we're playing France first up
00:57:38
that's fantastic yeah yeah so um okay so
00:57:42
so you're the all black coach um you're
00:57:44
knocked out of the Rugby World Cup
00:57:45
sooner than what uh definitely what you
00:57:48
want
00:57:49
um so you're dealing with that sort of
00:57:50
like heartbreak or numbness or
00:57:51
disappointment or whatever and then um
00:57:54
and then you've got to deal with
00:57:55
everything everything else like how do
00:57:57
the immediate like days or hours after
00:57:59
that look so you feel that the heat of
00:58:02
the media immediately huge yeah huge um
00:58:05
I was I've never been in a dressing room
00:58:08
like a after a game uh the team was
00:58:12
shattered
00:58:13
um because they were hot favorites and
00:58:15
and we didn't win
00:58:17
Randall who's supposed the captain's
00:58:19
supposed to do a pre-post-match
00:58:21
interview within I think it's about
00:58:23
three minutes or four minutes of
00:58:24
finishing was a no stake to do that and
00:58:28
and so I had to front and um and you
00:58:33
know I took accountability from the
00:58:35
start which I thought you should do
00:58:39
um
00:58:40
I I
00:58:41
look back and I think I got let down a
00:58:44
bit by some of the players in that day
00:58:46
but overall you're still accountable in
00:58:49
terms of what them not fronting up
00:58:50
they're not doing probably not playing
00:58:53
as they should have or maybe you know
00:58:55
going off to going off for team patent a
00:58:57
bit okay so some of that but you know
00:58:59
I'd never name individuals in that
00:59:01
regard because it's my responsibility
00:59:02
actually you're just pausing here so
00:59:04
we've been talking for almost an hour
00:59:05
there's one thing
00:59:06
um it's quite striking actually that
00:59:08
I've noticed about you in this past hour
00:59:09
you've never you haven't said a bad word
00:59:10
about anyone you've never blamed anyone
00:59:12
for anything and I mean you're an old
00:59:15
old man now now if you had any schools
00:59:17
to settle now it'd be the time to do
00:59:18
that and I think it says a lot about
00:59:19
your character yeah I think um you've
00:59:22
got to accept accountability yeah you
00:59:24
know and um and I had to and
00:59:27
and that was the most difficult period
00:59:28
of my life there's no doubt that um I
00:59:31
went through some things after the
00:59:33
return
00:59:34
um it was a horrible time in my life and
00:59:37
I started
00:59:38
really straight up to the game and the
00:59:41
media were into me there was certain
00:59:42
media who just
00:59:43
wanted payback I don't know what reasons
00:59:46
but they want to pay back or you can
00:59:47
name them who well you know Phil Gifford
00:59:50
was one oh really Murray dieka was
00:59:52
another really yeah yeah and they they
00:59:55
they they they just took aim and
00:59:58
and I had to take a decision
01:00:01
um what to do because I was most of the
01:00:03
players weren't going home they were
01:00:04
staying in Europe and having holidays I
01:00:07
decided
01:00:08
um that I would
01:00:09
after testing the water with a very good
01:00:12
colleague John Hood who's um was used to
01:00:15
a chancellor of Auckland University and
01:00:16
who was someone I employed at Fletcher's
01:00:19
and worked for at Fletcher's in the end
01:00:21
um just one person a very special man in
01:00:23
my life and I rang him to get the
01:00:26
feeling at home and what I should I
01:00:30
resign straight away or should I come
01:00:31
back and you know yes this was
01:00:33
pre-internet yeah pretty much absolutely
01:00:35
yeah and um I he said it was pretty grim
01:00:39
and in the end I advised the Rugby Union
01:00:43
that I would I was resigning the irony
01:00:46
was the Rugby Union had talked to me
01:00:48
about possibly taking a new role the
01:00:50
following year of you know GM of the All
01:00:52
Blacks and under and bring a new coach
01:00:54
in which is something I sort of had a
01:00:57
vision on of what you could do in terms
01:01:00
of the brand in terms of the whole thing
01:01:01
so all of a sudden I had to make that
01:01:04
decision and I made it
01:01:06
um it was pretty hard my family were
01:01:08
over there they came home I followed
01:01:11
them
01:01:12
and arrived back and
01:01:15
worst time of my life
01:01:17
yeah so I mean there's there's one
01:01:20
incident which um will get into as much
01:01:22
or as little as you want uh involving
01:01:24
the the races in Christchurch but so
01:01:26
when you get back is there anyone at the
01:01:27
airport
01:01:28
yeah there was some media not a lot yeah
01:01:31
okay but my family were there and your
01:01:34
wife at the time yeah my wife Judy and
01:01:36
my son and daughter yeah Chris how old
01:01:39
were they uh well they were um you know
01:01:41
sort of 17 uh sort of you know sort of
01:01:45
Ages yeah 18 19 no 20 20 in 2017. yeah
01:01:51
and Christ God bless them said to me dad
01:01:54
homesteog starting in the Auckland cup
01:01:56
in the New Zealand trotting Cup tomorrow
01:01:58
in
01:02:00
Eddington why don't we go down and I
01:02:03
thought well maybe that's a good thing
01:02:04
to do get out and you know and so the
01:02:08
four of us went down to what's home CG
01:02:10
who was fantastic uh I love horses so I
01:02:14
had a lot I've had a lot of fun in my
01:02:16
life with horses and he was he won 13
01:02:18
group once he was just super horse and
01:02:21
he was a favorite to win the uh New
01:02:23
Zealand cup with the race I'd never won
01:02:25
so we went down there it's the worst
01:02:27
decision I ever made in my life for
01:02:29
today that I will regret for the rest of
01:02:30
my life and I'll never forget the day
01:02:32
because it was it was horrible
01:02:35
um it's quite interesting guys people
01:02:37
just abusing you
01:02:39
um so you're in the birdcage area just
01:02:42
in the public area walking around
01:02:43
whatever right woman totally different
01:02:46
attitude
01:02:47
woman
01:02:49
empathized
01:02:50
um came up to me and congratulated me on
01:02:52
my career
01:02:54
um
01:02:54
men just you know there was just this
01:02:57
and I had this awful the most terrible
01:03:00
things ever happened to me I went to the
01:03:02
toilet and I'm in there and this guy
01:03:03
comes up to me and said you're uh
01:03:06
such and such in the words I can't
01:03:08
pronounce on yours you also but it was
01:03:10
the worst words you could hear and he
01:03:12
just spat on my face
01:03:13
and I stood there and I thought I can't
01:03:16
do it what can I do you know I just
01:03:18
and that memory will never leave me and
01:03:21
that was that was that was horrible and
01:03:24
um then we go out and the horse
01:03:27
the crowd is throwing beer cans at the
01:03:29
horse when he goes out on the track
01:03:33
I sort of I looked back and I think the
01:03:35
poor horse didn't know I'd lost the
01:03:36
World Cup I mean you know I mean that
01:03:38
they're both like alarmingly Despicable
01:03:41
acts but
01:03:42
in some way and I should I I feel more
01:03:45
sorry for the horse like that yeah I did
01:03:47
too I mean I feel bloody sorry for you
01:03:49
as well I mean no no no I'm not looking
01:03:51
for sorry no no no but I mean yeah I'm
01:03:54
sorry you went through that like I think
01:03:55
there's a there's a few shameful points
01:03:57
in New Zealand sporting history and the
01:03:58
way um the way you're treated I'd say
01:04:00
that's number one
01:04:02
um the the Butterworth Coupe stuff yeah
01:04:04
that was terrible
01:04:06
um Stephen Donald being sent a bullet in
01:04:09
the post after a bit I mean it's just
01:04:11
it's it's gross so what was the age of
01:04:14
the guy in the bathroom
01:04:16
yeah I don't know I can't I can I see
01:04:19
his face at the time I've lost it now
01:04:21
thank god
01:04:22
um but it was just one of those horrible
01:04:24
moments I just don't think what have I
01:04:25
done you know I've done my best I've uh
01:04:28
I've got a pretty good career record I'm
01:04:30
I've won a lot of things
01:04:32
um but yeah that was
01:04:34
and that led unfortunately to
01:04:38
look for
01:04:39
two years three years
01:04:41
um I went out of I went out of profile
01:04:45
totally I
01:04:47
I'd left Fletchers at that stage I was
01:04:49
on my own I had my own business
01:04:51
consultancy
01:04:52
I did nothing for two years I was hiding
01:04:55
from the public uh I didn't want to be
01:04:58
seen what did you just sort of have like
01:05:00
a fear that if you if you showed your
01:05:01
face anywhere you just lost confidence
01:05:03
yeah really lost confidence and and
01:05:06
obviously I was I suffered depression
01:05:09
but I didn't know it at that time I mean
01:05:11
we were talking about it talked about we
01:05:13
didn't talk about it but even JK was
01:05:15
talking about it no I remember I
01:05:16
couldn't cross the road one day I was so
01:05:19
scared to cry I like anxiety anxiety and
01:05:21
uh you know my mother and wife Judy took
01:05:24
me to Fiji for two weeks to try and to
01:05:27
help because I could see that I was in a
01:05:28
bit of a mess
01:05:30
and look I had two two years in the
01:05:33
wilderness and really did nothing and
01:05:37
um then then a stroke of luck changed my
01:05:41
life again um
01:05:43
John Bailey the chairman of Bailey
01:05:45
Bailey's real estate
01:05:47
um
01:05:48
he must have heard that I was struggling
01:05:50
I didn't even know him must have heard
01:05:52
that I was I was struggling and he was
01:05:54
he was organizing a fundraiser for Team
01:05:58
New Zealand and the aim was to run a
01:06:01
six-week online auction everyone
01:06:04
contributing items and you know bidding
01:06:06
and and then a big dinner and he asked
01:06:08
he came and asked me out of the blue
01:06:10
would I would I leave that for him and
01:06:14
and I thought well
01:06:16
yeah yeah I decided to I don't know why
01:06:19
I decided to because I had no confidence
01:06:21
in myself at that stage but it was
01:06:23
immensely successful it got me back on
01:06:25
the on the road and more importantly he
01:06:30
then because it was successful he did
01:06:32
really well and he a month or so after
01:06:36
that he asked me to go on the board of
01:06:38
Bailey's and uh I became his the First
01:06:41
Independent director outside of the
01:06:42
family to be on the border Bailey's and
01:06:44
uh stayed there for 20 years I just
01:06:47
retired a year ago and
01:06:48
you know I I owe him and that company so
01:06:51
much so great company I mean I just
01:06:53
enjoyed it working with them but you
01:06:55
know
01:06:56
you needed a break and I got a break
01:06:59
um and otherwise I just don't know what
01:07:01
where I'd be and and life life evolved
01:07:03
again and I found myself and found my
01:07:05
confidence and and you know went on and
01:07:08
I've been doing some fantastic things in
01:07:11
my last 15 years or so I've really
01:07:12
enjoyed life again it's been it's been
01:07:14
fantastic I think there's a good message
01:07:15
in there right for a lot of people it's
01:07:17
like um you know this too shall pass you
01:07:20
know that's um I think there's an
01:07:21
Abraham Lincoln uh quote and things do
01:07:24
get better and yeah it never stays
01:07:25
stormy forever did you did you get any
01:07:27
professional help in that time or
01:07:28
anything no I don't know you didn't even
01:07:30
see um your old mate Dr John no well I
01:07:32
didn't know I I well I I really probably
01:07:36
I mean John John I've seen John Mayhew
01:07:39
but then we were I
01:07:42
yeah it's a hard thing to go back and
01:07:44
think about because
01:07:46
I was obviously depressed you know you
01:07:48
hear about it today and I was obviously
01:07:50
depressed I mean I can remember that I
01:07:52
couldn't cross the road I didn't want to
01:07:54
go across yeah and you know I mean
01:07:56
that's pretty that's pretty bad and the
01:07:58
the alarming thing is that and I I
01:08:01
suppose it just goes to show like um the
01:08:03
way mental illness works it's like like
01:08:05
you weren't you weren't you weren't a
01:08:06
cat you weren't enough no you know you
01:08:08
were a man in your 50s yeah and uh yeah
01:08:10
well established in business well
01:08:12
established established in life but
01:08:13
there was this whole thing in those days
01:08:15
you wouldn't admit that no you know yeah
01:08:17
you've got to be bigger than that and
01:08:19
better than that and uh still working I
01:08:22
didn't reach out I didn't I didn't know
01:08:23
how to reach out interestingly with my
01:08:26
background you would have thought I
01:08:26
should have been able to reach out yeah
01:08:28
honestly um JK Can't Get Enough praise
01:08:30
for for what he's done like the the the
01:08:33
the correct courage in speaking out in a
01:08:35
point it's it's very well spoken about
01:08:37
it now you know there's a lot of
01:08:38
ambassadors for um mental health he did
01:08:41
it in a time where it was courageous to
01:08:43
he he he has just been a fantastic
01:08:47
so much admiration when I look back to
01:08:49
that that butcher's Apprentice you know
01:08:52
and I look at what he's done in his life
01:08:54
and the inspiration he has been to so
01:08:57
many people
01:08:58
um he he's one of our special people you
01:09:01
know yeah because of the work he's done
01:09:04
it means you and I can sit here today
01:09:05
absolutely talk about this stuff we
01:09:06
wouldn't we wouldn't be I mean he's
01:09:08
hoping to do he helped open the door
01:09:10
there's no doubt about it absolutely and
01:09:11
it was uh yeah so very grateful for that
01:09:15
and it was it was it around this time
01:09:16
that you first your first marriage yeah
01:09:18
well how long were you married like 30
01:09:20
years or so yeah yeah in 2002 which was
01:09:23
all through my in the times when I
01:09:26
wasn't in great shape to be fair
01:09:28
um Judy and I separated we just grew
01:09:30
apart to be fair and adulting's hard
01:09:33
isn't it yeah and that was life's hard I
01:09:35
regret I regret the way that happened I
01:09:38
don't regret it happening because I'm in
01:09:40
a great space and so she yeah you know
01:09:43
and um we've got two of the most
01:09:45
fantastic kids
01:09:47
um fantastic family and and Kay and
01:09:49
Chris are so important to me um and I'm
01:09:52
so proud of what they've done in their
01:09:54
lives I mean they're just they're
01:09:56
stunningly successful uh and they're
01:09:58
both beautiful kids and so you know went
01:10:01
through a tough time
01:10:04
um and
01:10:05
my new partner died six months later
01:10:09
um yeah I remember breast cancer I
01:10:11
thought I um heard something about this
01:10:13
um I looked for some information online
01:10:15
but it's sort of pre-internets there's
01:10:17
nothing there so she was there
01:10:18
physiotherapist she was a yoga teacher
01:10:20
right yoga teacher and in her 30s and uh
01:10:23
all of a sudden you've got breast cancer
01:10:25
and died within six months so I sort of
01:10:29
Life had really collapsed for me again
01:10:32
and uh
01:10:34
um your 50s were rough yeah they weren't
01:10:36
great great but you know
01:10:39
then I've met the you know the dream of
01:10:42
my life you know
01:10:43
um die my wife now you know I was
01:10:45
introduced by Paul Collins to support
01:10:48
Paul and Rosie Collins
01:10:50
um Paul became a great mate to we were
01:10:52
on the sports Foundation together for
01:10:54
about 11 years in the 90s
01:10:56
um and uh Rose Rosie his wife is guy's
01:11:01
best friend and she had a view that
01:11:03
Rosie decided that guy and I should get
01:11:05
together and she planned it and we got
01:11:08
together and here we are we got married
01:11:10
in 2014 and uh you know she's just a
01:11:14
wonderful part of my life and
01:11:16
my kids love her uh and we you know
01:11:19
life's fantastic but um you know
01:11:22
sometimes you've got to go through
01:11:23
difficult times to have have great times
01:11:25
as well but you know I always look back
01:11:27
on my marriage too and say you know
01:11:29
um we we grew two fantastic kids and um
01:11:32
you know I will always uh respect Judy
01:11:35
so much for that
01:11:37
yeah well I mean I don't know what the
01:11:39
uh the stats are when it comes to
01:11:40
marriages but when you get married
01:11:41
there's a high chance that it's not
01:11:43
going to work
01:11:44
um it's a funny thing isn't it because
01:11:45
I'm I'm um I'm still legally married but
01:11:47
me and my wife broke up like maybe five
01:11:50
or six years ago and uh because you
01:11:51
stand in front of all your friends and
01:11:53
you make promises that you're going to
01:11:54
be with each other till you die anything
01:11:55
less than that feels like a failure yeah
01:11:57
but realistically if you're with the
01:11:58
same woman for 30 years and you have two
01:12:00
kids I I don't think you've got to be
01:12:02
happy with it I don't look bad now yeah
01:12:05
at all I mean I just um you know I I
01:12:09
just look at my kids I live my life
01:12:10
through the kids still you know we Diane
01:12:12
I've just come back from um Phuket where
01:12:15
um my son and his wife Missy and the
01:12:18
three three grandkids uh Jack and Bella
01:12:20
and Rosie 11 nine and three
01:12:23
um you know we went up there and my
01:12:25
daughter uh Kay and her husband dinga
01:12:27
they they live in Bangkok
01:12:29
um
01:12:30
Kai's a superwoman people got no idea
01:12:32
what she knows but she's she works for
01:12:34
Ford and
01:12:36
um she's um I got her when I was all
01:12:39
about coach in 99 she needed a six-week
01:12:42
um role to complete a degree she came
01:12:45
out of aut doing a marketing degree and
01:12:47
I went to Ford and said would you mind
01:12:49
employing Kay for six weeks just for
01:12:52
practical experience you never had to do
01:12:54
this practical experience thing well she
01:12:56
ended up being employed they liked her
01:12:59
so much they employed her full-time and
01:13:01
she's been running she's been running
01:13:04
countries uh she's and she's now the
01:13:07
president of Ford international markets
01:13:09
so she's got 92 countries reporting to
01:13:12
her I mean she's got a humongous job and
01:13:15
I'm just so proud of her and uh I can I
01:13:18
can tell the way your eyes light up and
01:13:19
you smile well I mean she's just a you
01:13:22
know Wonderful success story unknown
01:13:23
here but you know she's done so well and
01:13:26
and Chris has done so well in business
01:13:28
he was chief executive of ear works who
01:13:31
are a prom
01:13:33
new zealand-based
01:13:35
company he grew that and he's taken some
01:13:39
time off now and his kids in here and
01:13:40
off to Europe to five months and life's
01:13:43
pretty good you know I just uh yeah and
01:13:46
more importantly to me than their
01:13:48
successes is there uh is that Amina
01:13:51
they're just wonderful kids and the
01:13:53
wonderful people and and people love
01:13:54
them so you know you can be very
01:13:58
parenting's so important you know I
01:14:00
think if I look at society today if
01:14:02
there's one issue I'd I'd say as as
01:14:04
question is questioning when I look at
01:14:06
crime and health and education yeah it's
01:14:09
that word parenting going across
01:14:10
everything because you know I learned
01:14:12
great parenting through my mum and dad
01:14:14
who had nothing but gave us everything
01:14:16
uh you know
01:14:18
um and I I just think it's it's there's
01:14:21
no better uh there's no better thing in
01:14:23
your life than to see your children
01:14:24
being successful but more importantly
01:14:26
being good children good people you know
01:14:28
if they're successful as well that's
01:14:30
great but being good people yeah how did
01:14:33
you um speak of them like how did you
01:14:35
navigate it during um the 90s when all
01:14:37
this show was going on yeah it was tough
01:14:39
I mean those sort of adults I guess at
01:14:42
young adults in their own right because
01:14:43
you don't need to sit down as you would
01:14:45
like intermediate age kids and how yeah
01:14:46
how do you how do you get through that
01:14:48
yeah look wasn't
01:14:50
um it wasn't that wasn't easy but they
01:14:52
were 20 yeah 23 24 and um you know
01:14:56
they got backlash as well from well no
01:15:00
not really but the
01:15:01
they probably they felt what I went
01:15:04
through and they saw it and they felt it
01:15:07
and uh they were hurt by it
01:15:10
um whether they got backlash themselves
01:15:12
who knows I mean they may have they
01:15:15
didn't talk about it but but
01:15:17
um they felt for me and and what was
01:15:20
going on so and they were both very
01:15:22
strong supporters and stayed with me and
01:15:25
um you know very important part of my
01:15:27
life
01:15:30
yeah that was pretty social media as
01:15:32
well yeah imagine yeah just imagine I
01:15:35
just don't imagine Dom I just hate the
01:15:37
thought of you know I mean with respect
01:15:39
social media's life today but there's
01:15:42
some real downsides of social media in
01:15:44
terms of what it's doing to our
01:15:45
community
01:15:46
but honestly every single person I've
01:15:48
had on this show no one until now has
01:15:51
has ever encountered someone being mean
01:15:53
to them in real life like everyone's had
01:15:55
abuse online but no one Dr Ashley
01:15:57
Bloomfield said the the worst thing he
01:15:58
said is someone coming out to him saying
01:16:00
I hope you have a horrible day but
01:16:02
compared to being spared on in a [ __ ]
01:16:04
bathroom at a horse race mate that's
01:16:06
nothing and that is outrageous yeah and
01:16:10
it was probably all the other things
01:16:11
were going on on that day as well you
01:16:13
know drinking and the abuse from other
01:16:16
people okay seeing the poor bloody horse
01:16:18
time so he got beaten by nose he must
01:16:21
have known it wasn't safe for him to win
01:16:23
he got beaten he's like I've been hit by
01:16:25
cash
01:16:28
and it's quite interesting because
01:16:30
um I think Jenny Shipley was the prime
01:16:32
minister at the time and she heard a few
01:16:36
things that had gone on because we went
01:16:37
home that night straight after the race
01:16:39
we went home and on the Friday as what
01:16:42
they call New Zealand free for all it's
01:16:43
uh where all the couple horses race
01:16:45
again and in home cg1 and I obviously I
01:16:50
wasn't there I was at home and I'll
01:16:52
never forget that that
01:16:54
um the phone went just straight after
01:16:56
the race and it was Jenny Shipley who I
01:16:58
didn't really know but she was prime
01:17:00
minister and she was down there to make
01:17:02
a presentation she said look I heard
01:17:04
what happened to you on
01:17:05
uh well Tuesday and I just want to
01:17:08
congratulate you um on winning this race
01:17:10
I'm sorry that you can't be here to
01:17:11
share it but we're thinking about you
01:17:12
and I thought that was that was really
01:17:14
nice yeah it was nice that was really
01:17:16
nice yeah so um how do you process that
01:17:20
fact do you you go back to your hotel
01:17:22
room are you are you just furious with
01:17:24
rage are you shaken up are you upset
01:17:27
yeah well you're upset
01:17:29
um I didn't know how to talk about it
01:17:31
even really at the time how did it come
01:17:33
out did you did you bring it up or did
01:17:35
someone else I wasn't someone else right
01:17:37
I'd mention it to someone and I think
01:17:39
they've got okay released I didn't go
01:17:41
out publicly yeah that's how it came out
01:17:43
but um you know that's that look that's
01:17:46
gone
01:17:47
um
01:17:48
that was just a a a a bit of a blip in
01:17:51
the in the journey and uh you know I've
01:17:55
I've come back stronger yeah I don't
01:17:58
yeah sorry
01:17:59
a little bit but I just can't get over
01:18:01
how outrageous it is but someone someone
01:18:03
chances are that person's still alive so
01:18:05
someone's walking around today yeah
01:18:06
knowing that they they did that yeah and
01:18:09
I hope they feel immense Shame about it
01:18:11
an embarrassment maybe they don't I
01:18:13
don't know I don't know I mean you know
01:18:14
you must you must feel like this as well
01:18:17
because what when I was in my 20s I so
01:18:20
when I was in my 20s and you became all
01:18:21
black coach at 50 I saw 50 year olds and
01:18:23
I thought they were [ __ ] old yeah and
01:18:25
I thought they knew everything and had
01:18:27
it all figured out now I get to 50 and I
01:18:29
realize everyone's just learning all the
01:18:30
time absolutely evolving and growing so
01:18:32
that person I don't know what age they'd
01:18:35
be now but there's someone walking
01:18:37
around that is probably mortified by how
01:18:40
they acted that day I hope so who knows
01:18:42
where they are yeah yeah so um
01:18:45
how's the risk of your life looking what
01:18:47
do you reckon another good decade left
01:18:48
another good two decades well look I'm
01:18:50
just um I'm sort of semi-retired but I
01:18:53
am working so hard on two things that
01:18:57
I'm passionate about you know I'm um I
01:19:00
created this tournament golf tournament
01:19:02
um
01:19:04
something happened from
01:19:06
2004 I was invited to play in the
01:19:09
Dunhill classic the Dunhill age you
01:19:12
Dunhill at uh Saint Andrews the the
01:19:14
Pro-Am event yeah yeah and
01:19:17
um which was really nice and because
01:19:19
those invitations are not easy to get
01:19:21
and I
01:19:23
and out of that out of that tournament
01:19:25
came to Fantastic things that happened
01:19:27
to me
01:19:29
firstly I was paired with Eric Watson
01:19:33
um as he was the other amateur in my
01:19:35
group so we played together for three
01:19:37
days
01:19:38
and he put the hard word on me too
01:19:41
come to the Warriors to help him with
01:19:43
the Warriors who were struggling a bit
01:19:45
and I said no I could not ever turn my
01:19:48
back on Rugby rugby was my love and I
01:19:52
said no and um and I the other thing was
01:19:54
that I learned about this combat this
01:19:56
tournament and thought wow
01:19:58
you know at the time I was on the PGA
01:20:00
board here as an independent director
01:20:03
they asked me to come on and help them
01:20:05
as an independent director
01:20:07
I said well some event so anyhow it
01:20:11
evolved two years later every year and a
01:20:13
half later he kept hammering me and I
01:20:15
finally decided
01:20:17
well rugby hasn't reached out to me at
01:20:20
all since 99. I mean it's quite
01:20:22
interesting looking back
01:20:24
after I resigned I never heard from New
01:20:26
Zealand Rugby Union
01:20:28
never
01:20:29
for years yeah it's kind of a slap in
01:20:32
the face really right now you'd say it
01:20:35
just wouldn't be possible today but in
01:20:37
terms of in terms of the lack of Duty of
01:20:39
care or yeah well both really yeah uh
01:20:42
but primarily just common decency I
01:20:45
thought at the time but you know it sort
01:20:47
of
01:20:48
so I sort of thought well maybe why
01:20:51
wouldn't I do something different
01:20:52
and so
01:20:54
I agreed to go in there and I had five
01:20:56
of the best years of my life there at
01:20:59
the you know it was uh we we turned
01:21:01
things around
01:21:02
um I help recruit and put Ivan Cleary in
01:21:06
as coach
01:21:08
um
01:21:08
we had some wonderful times
01:21:11
um 2011
01:21:12
we had all three Warriors teams in the
01:21:15
finals at uh in Sydney on the on the
01:21:17
final day final you know we had under
01:21:19
20s our Reserve grade and our Senior
01:21:22
Team NRL Team all playing off in the
01:21:24
finals which was just fantastic
01:21:27
um and um
01:21:28
you know so I had a I've got to say I've
01:21:31
got a soft spot for the Warriors because
01:21:32
I had five great years there
01:21:34
um they made a tragic decision they
01:21:37
should have really done a lot to try and
01:21:39
keep Ivan clear as a coach I mean
01:21:42
he's gone he's done all right with
01:21:43
Penrose he's gone on to be one of the
01:21:45
greatest he's probably the best coach
01:21:46
I've seen he's a fantastic coach
01:21:49
um and it's not it's not lost on me that
01:21:51
Andrew Webster who's now doing a
01:21:53
fantastic job with the Warriors was a
01:21:57
protege of Ivan Cleary at the Panthers
01:21:59
and uh
01:22:00
I often think back maybe if Ivan was
01:22:02
still here we might have a son playing
01:22:04
for us as well Nathan oh Nathan yeah
01:22:05
he's not a bad football honestly but I
01:22:07
had you know fantastic five years there
01:22:09
and um and then I came off that and uh I
01:22:13
came up with this idea to run this golf
01:22:15
tournament and um went down and saw
01:22:18
Michael Hill and I said you know how
01:22:19
about we try and run a PGA Championship
01:22:22
as a Pro-Am not heard of a big
01:22:24
tournament and
01:22:26
and he liked the vision and he and he's
01:22:30
a Visionary himself
01:22:31
um and so between us we employed Michael
01:22:34
glading who became a really become a
01:22:36
really good no Michael he was the boss
01:22:37
of Sony music
01:22:39
and he's still running the New Zealand
01:22:41
open today we've been together for 12
01:22:44
years and um we created this event and
01:22:47
it evolved after two years of the PGA
01:22:49
Championship
01:22:51
um you see when golf came to me and said
01:22:53
because the New Zealand open was going
01:22:55
backwards and our tournament was going
01:22:56
upwards and they asked me if I'd take
01:22:59
out make the tournament the New Zealand
01:23:01
open and um and which was quite that was
01:23:05
quite a
01:23:06
um I was really proud of that because
01:23:08
there's no open played in a Pro-Am
01:23:10
format around the world every anywhere
01:23:12
and so we created this tournament and
01:23:14
recreated it in 2014 and now it's um
01:23:19
it's it's just a great event it's a
01:23:22
international class event it's um you
01:23:25
know it was when we started I think
01:23:26
their budget was just under a million
01:23:28
dollars and our prize money was about
01:23:29
400 I think we're now at six million
01:23:32
dollars we've got International backing
01:23:35
we've got 60 70 of our money comes from
01:23:38
International uh across you know Korea
01:23:42
and the states and Indonesia
01:23:45
um uh whereas Hong Kong you know people
01:23:49
who are supporting us
01:23:51
um and it's one of the three biggest
01:23:52
events on
01:23:53
the australasian circuit
01:23:56
um and it's growing and it's a it's a
01:24:00
it's a it's an event that's showcasing
01:24:02
the best of New Zealand it's bringing
01:24:04
huge profile names to New Zealand who
01:24:06
end up investing government have been a
01:24:08
great supporter of a tournament because
01:24:09
they see you know the television
01:24:11
pictures alone coming out of Queenstown
01:24:13
are pretty special and so that takes a
01:24:16
lot of my time
01:24:18
um and I you know sort of went from the
01:24:21
Warriors into that and um
01:24:23
and then five years ago New Zealand
01:24:26
rugby
01:24:27
I got a call from New Zealand Rugby and
01:24:29
saying a long time no see yeah just
01:24:33
about and remember us yeah
01:24:37
for the 2011 World Cup I was actually
01:24:40
chairman of a task force they end up
01:24:41
chairman of a task force
01:24:43
um to um to maximize the benefits of the
01:24:46
World Cup for New Zealand so yeah they
01:24:48
brought me back in to do something that
01:24:50
was government really yeah a time here
01:24:51
was a lot of wounds yeah it does but it
01:24:53
does it's a it's a it's a funny old
01:24:55
thing isn't it this is something that we
01:24:56
we didn't talk about at all but um so
01:24:58
the 2011 World Cup what was the score in
01:25:00
the final seven six yeah yeah yeah so
01:25:03
nine seven nine seven it's a knife like
01:25:05
Graham Henry he he would have been um he
01:25:07
would have been kicked out of the
01:25:09
country spend the rest of his life in
01:25:11
the south of France or two losses
01:25:12
um you could have end up 2007 2011 could
01:25:16
have been there yeah imagine that but
01:25:18
it's a fine fine line between becoming a
01:25:20
legend and being deemed a loser yeah
01:25:22
yeah it doesn't seem fair yeah no no I
01:25:25
think you just got to accept those
01:25:26
things that's that's life but you know
01:25:28
um
01:25:29
but then the New Zealand Rugby Union had
01:25:32
brought out the interest of the private
01:25:34
shareholder in the Blues and asked me if
01:25:36
I'd become one of our directors and so
01:25:38
last five years I've been um working
01:25:41
really hard on the blues helping
01:25:44
helping put together a really good team
01:25:45
and we've now got a great team of people
01:25:48
off the field chairman you board
01:25:51
UCO new coaches I mean everything's
01:25:53
changing and it's quite exciting we've
01:25:55
still got a long way to go but I've
01:25:57
thoroughly enjoyed that and and now when
01:26:00
New Zealand Rugby wanted to get out of
01:26:01
his shareholding
01:26:03
um I helped with Grant Graham bring
01:26:05
together a group to buy the shareholding
01:26:07
and so we're part owners of a place now
01:26:10
but we've got some great people involved
01:26:12
as owners and yeah so I'm sort of
01:26:15
retired love golf still got my horses
01:26:18
and um you know cheered the New Zealand
01:26:21
open and on the board of the Blues and
01:26:25
I'm doing things now I'm passionate
01:26:26
about yeah you know I just want to do I
01:26:29
want to give to what I love love love
01:26:30
love seeing and love doing and um yeah
01:26:34
life's pretty good life's pretty good
01:26:36
yeah as it should be and um you send me
01:26:38
a text um last night of um your
01:26:40
granddaughter holding both of granddad's
01:26:42
books
01:26:43
um what would you two kids say about you
01:26:45
you're a bit of a better grandfather
01:26:47
than you were a father did they complain
01:26:49
about it yeah
01:26:58
yeah I can tell you love it you love
01:27:00
being a Granddad and uh yeah you're busy
01:27:02
doing projects you're passionate about
01:27:03
and you still have so much to offer as
01:27:04
well yeah well I'm sort of I you got to
01:27:07
realize you know getting to the age I'm
01:27:09
getting it's uh uh there's limited time
01:27:12
ahead but my whole resolve is just to
01:27:15
keep enjoying myself and keep
01:27:17
contributing and um you know being the
01:27:20
best I can be and um and and enjoy
01:27:22
myself and you know I think that's um
01:27:25
you know I've got some great mates
01:27:27
um we we play a lot of golf we have a
01:27:29
lot of fun and and friendships are so
01:27:32
important to life and yeah and those are
01:27:34
the things that I treasure and and work
01:27:36
hard at yeah well I'm sorry you went
01:27:37
through that dark patch but I'm pleased
01:27:39
that you've gone through it oh look I'm
01:27:41
a better person for going through it
01:27:42
yeah
01:27:43
absolutely no no I I don't look back at
01:27:47
that with uh I it wasn't a great part of
01:27:50
my life but you learn to become
01:27:52
resilient you learn a lot about yourself
01:27:55
you know I think it taught me that um I
01:27:58
I would have thought you were resilient
01:28:01
anyway like you you yeah all those knock
01:28:03
Downs when you were going for the all
01:28:04
black job yeah I I think I was but I
01:28:07
think it it it it showed me how to
01:28:10
bounce back and that was important you
01:28:12
know I mean um a lot of people don't
01:28:15
um and and I probably as I say I owe
01:28:20
people like John Bailey um Paul Collins
01:28:22
or some special people Hugh Fletcher I
01:28:24
look back you know I've got some special
01:28:27
people who go back to my Fletcher days
01:28:29
when I first started at Fletcher's a guy
01:28:31
called George Fraser who wouldn't be
01:28:33
known to me he was Sir James's right
01:28:35
hand man he was a communist he was
01:28:37
chairman of TV3 it was it was everything
01:28:40
everything different he was my mentor
01:28:43
and I've always remember something he
01:28:45
said to me he said for you to be
01:28:48
successful there's one thing you must
01:28:50
remember
01:28:51
never forget the most important thing in
01:28:53
life and I didn't know what I was going
01:28:55
to hear here and he said common sense
01:28:57
and I I think I've survived on Common
01:29:01
Sense and and I look back at what he
01:29:03
taught me
01:29:04
I'm not an intellect you know I I'm I'm
01:29:07
I deal with people that blow me away you
01:29:10
know but I think in common sense terms I
01:29:14
I can see through see what's right and
01:29:16
wrong and and see see Pathways and I
01:29:18
think that's that's always been quite
01:29:20
important for me are you a good
01:29:22
communicator and you're truthful as well
01:29:23
yeah well that's I think Communications
01:29:25
have to battle isn't it yeah no and I'm
01:29:27
being prepared to front I mean I was a
01:29:29
bit reluctant to do this as I told you
01:29:32
um yeah why so
01:29:37
but I'm not seeking publicity really I
01:29:40
mean I'm I'm where I am now but when you
01:29:43
talked about it the way you did you know
01:29:45
share your life and I just think there
01:29:47
are lessons to it and I I think
01:29:49
um you know I came out of a a whole
01:29:52
background where I grew up in the state
01:29:54
house uh just had you know lovely family
01:29:58
life
01:29:59
didn't have anything really in terms of
01:30:02
um anything certainly didn't wasn't born
01:30:04
with a silver spoon in my mouth I mean
01:30:05
yeah we had nothing
01:30:07
um but boy I had everything you know I
01:30:09
had a great schooling
01:30:11
I love Mount Roscoe grammar you know I
01:30:13
achieved there I sort of and it was all
01:30:16
about parenting my parents were so great
01:30:17
and so
01:30:19
um I'm so grateful for that so and I
01:30:21
think I look back and while
01:30:24
I don't want to get out there publicly
01:30:27
but you know there are lessons that you
01:30:29
can share you know
01:30:31
um that you can share to you know good
01:30:33
times and bad times and I thought when
01:30:36
you spoke to me I sort of I talked to a
01:30:39
couple of people I trusted and they said
01:30:41
you should do this and yeah you told me
01:30:43
this Kerry Woodham was one who works at
01:30:44
music ZB yeah I'm staying and she was
01:30:47
really strongly saying you should do
01:30:49
this it's good and he's a good man and
01:30:51
you know it's going to be good for you
01:30:53
and and um yeah so as I said to you I
01:30:56
was a bit I was a bit dubious about
01:30:58
doing it but I've really enjoyed it and
01:31:00
it's um well it's mate it's been a hell
01:31:02
of a life so I feel like it's one that's
01:31:03
worth um reflecting on because I I feel
01:31:06
like even at your age now you're still
01:31:08
looking forward and looking towards the
01:31:10
next thing
01:31:11
um but you've done a lot so it's nice to
01:31:12
like pause and look back and enjoy some
01:31:15
of those moments I think yeah yeah and
01:31:16
that's it made me it's made me just
01:31:18
talking to you has made me reflect a lot
01:31:20
on my life and there's been a lot going
01:31:21
on there you know and and to be fair
01:31:24
ninety percent of it's positive there's
01:31:26
no there's not much that's not so but
01:31:29
the 10 make you better yeah and you
01:31:31
think about how many players that you
01:31:32
that you coach that are considered great
01:31:34
players even though they never want to
01:31:35
win a World Cup oh my God the list is
01:31:37
too long to to name
01:31:39
um but I think it's the same with
01:31:40
coaches as well just because you didn't
01:31:42
win a World Cup on your own it doesn't
01:31:43
mean you weren't a great coach yeah I
01:31:46
look back at my record and he speaks for
01:31:48
itself you know 88 I can I can put up if
01:31:51
I had if you put all my International
01:31:54
coaching and all my Auckland coaching
01:31:56
and New Zealand cultural first class
01:31:58
career I know that my record will stand
01:32:01
a test of any of them but it's not
01:32:03
recognized like that because I didn't
01:32:04
get a World Cup but that's okay I don't
01:32:06
go to bed worrying about I didn't get a
01:32:08
World Cup I go to bed thinking that you
01:32:11
know I've had a lot of fun yeah well
01:32:12
that's exactly my point no one's saying
01:32:13
Jonah yeah not bad you're gonna win a
01:32:16
World Cup though
01:32:18
um oh one one final one this might be
01:32:21
the thing that gets uh picked up in the
01:32:23
news if anything um so the Rugby World
01:32:24
Cup's coming up
01:32:27
you said something about the Ian Foster
01:32:29
thing like you you were asked to comment
01:32:31
on that so you thought um Ian Foster was
01:32:33
a bit hard done by with the
01:32:35
look I have recently I don't think
01:32:39
um I'm slow coming backwards on that one
01:32:41
I don't think it was handled really well
01:32:43
at all
01:32:44
um I think what went on last year when
01:32:47
he went through that bad patchwood
01:32:48
Island and whatever
01:32:50
um I I think it was treated pretty
01:32:52
roughly personally by the the New
01:32:54
Zealand Public or the nzru everyone
01:32:55
right I think collectively media I think
01:32:58
he he took uh and I've just been
01:33:01
um delighted to see him successful I
01:33:03
mean it's quite interesting to me
01:33:05
um I think
01:33:07
the introduction of Joe Smith and Jason
01:33:09
Ryan have enabled him to be the coach he
01:33:14
needed to be
01:33:16
um I think he probably made a mistake in
01:33:19
the in the quality of the people he had
01:33:20
with him and and having to get rid of
01:33:22
his assistance
01:33:24
um but he made that move
01:33:26
um and he's brought in two world-class
01:33:28
people and as a group now they are
01:33:31
looking a lot stronger and and I only
01:33:34
wish him well I had a couple of hours
01:33:35
with he and Joe Smith just last week
01:33:38
before last week's test and it was
01:33:40
really refreshing I was really
01:33:41
respectful of listening to him and talk
01:33:43
about the game he's he's he's he's he's
01:33:45
he's a lot smarter than people giving
01:33:47
credit for in the game in the game of
01:33:49
rugby I think a lot of people wanted to
01:33:51
see him fail and that's that hurts you
01:33:53
know I've seen that
01:33:55
um and and the Robert Scott Robertson
01:33:57
thing you know that was in the
01:33:58
background all the time
01:34:00
um look I I think um he's gonna he's
01:34:03
he's got as good a Chances with the
01:34:06
World Cup and the world up in
01:34:09
2023 it's going to be an immensely Hard
01:34:11
One to Win particularly because of a
01:34:14
draw the draw is right against all black
01:34:17
South Africa France and Ireland the best
01:34:20
four teams are in the same two pools so
01:34:22
come quarterfinals two of them are gone
01:34:25
and you're going to see Australia and
01:34:26
England go through on the other side
01:34:27
Australia who aren't an average team I
01:34:30
I'm almost certainly will say we'll get
01:34:32
in the semi-finals and and yet we could
01:34:34
get out knocked out at the quarterfinals
01:34:36
because we're going to have to play
01:34:37
South Africa or Island to get through
01:34:39
but I've got a feeling about this world
01:34:42
cup that the first game will be the last
01:34:44
game
01:34:45
what is that until like the final I
01:34:47
reckon who's the first game first games
01:34:49
France versus all blacks and I reckon
01:34:51
that'll be the final I think you would
01:34:54
say that you've been stung by France
01:34:55
before yeah well actually New Zealand's
01:34:57
been stung by France
01:34:59
they're right up now Ireland and France
01:35:02
are the top two teams in the country in
01:35:04
the world at the moment
01:35:05
South Africa showed their weaknesses
01:35:07
last week by just believing they could
01:35:10
come over here and Bashas and physically
01:35:11
and found that we didn't we weren't
01:35:13
subdued and and that's why I thought
01:35:15
your Black Performance was outstanding
01:35:17
physically and then our skill was too
01:35:19
much for them
01:35:20
um but they'll be better for it I
01:35:22
wouldn't write South Africa off day you
01:35:24
won't see that starting team play next
01:35:25
time you know they they they they I
01:35:28
think they probably got a bit arrogant
01:35:30
in this election thought they could
01:35:31
physically beat us and then bring their
01:35:32
best on to really
01:35:34
to destroy us and it didn't quite work
01:35:36
for them so they'll be very competitive
01:35:38
but I think France Australia France see
01:35:40
all blacks and um Ireland South Africa
01:35:42
they are the four best teams
01:35:44
unfortunately two aren't two are not
01:35:45
going to get through but I do believe if
01:35:47
we win the quarterfinal we we can meet
01:35:49
France in the semi-final in the final
01:35:51
are you still fully immersed in rugby
01:35:54
you enjoy it you love it you you know
01:35:56
I'm totally immersed in the world in the
01:35:57
blue Hoosier Warriors and the blues you
01:35:59
know I've sort of I loved that I've
01:36:01
spent a lot of my time there I've
01:36:02
created a family foundation for the
01:36:05
blues and um you know got a whole lot of
01:36:07
people involved in that supporting
01:36:09
getting you know getting out and getting
01:36:10
some really great names in Auckland
01:36:12
supporting the the blues and and I'm
01:36:15
loving that so I'm yeah I'm passionate
01:36:16
about the game look I'm a passionate
01:36:18
kiwi I just love New Zealand uh I don't
01:36:22
necessarily like what I'm seeing in New
01:36:23
Zealand at the moment yeah it's not
01:36:25
quite the country that I love and and
01:36:28
hopefully you know we that gets turned
01:36:30
around and you know listening to what
01:36:32
happened today you know yeah
01:36:35
we're filming this on um Thursday July
01:36:38
20 and there was a shooting this morning
01:36:40
in commercial Bay and yeah I went to
01:36:42
work with a gun and yeah he's dead and
01:36:45
two other people who did as well it's
01:36:46
awful that's sad and particularly I
01:36:48
thought it was really sad given that
01:36:50
it's on the eve of you know the FIFA
01:36:53
World Cup the Women's World Cup right
01:36:55
big event for New Zealand so if not
01:36:56
exactly the publicity we want but you
01:36:59
know
01:37:00
I've got a lot of my mates saying to me
01:37:02
you know they're thinking about leaving
01:37:03
no way I could leave I I believe in this
01:37:06
country and we'll we've just got to get
01:37:08
through it we've got to we've got to be
01:37:09
better we've got to be better I love the
01:37:11
attitude I think that's a good place to
01:37:12
end it John Hart a hell of a lot and um
01:37:15
I don't know if we're if we want to look
01:37:17
at like a game clock you're into the
01:37:19
maybe the last quarter yeah
01:37:21
I don't know I don't know I'm well under
01:37:23
the last quarter I don't know as I said
01:37:25
you just before we started recording I
01:37:27
had um Arch jelly sitting in the seat a
01:37:29
couple of weeks ago John Walker's Old
01:37:30
Coach who's about to turn 101 so you
01:37:32
just never know you're looking great I
01:37:34
don't know if I'll get to 101 but thanks
01:37:35
for having me I've really enjoyed being
01:37:36
on the program I appreciate it John Hart
01:37:38
a great New Zealander
01:37:39
[Music]
01:37:54
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