00:00:00
The All Blacks are good because they
00:00:02
hurt when they lose. You staff are no
00:00:04
different. I think the fans don't really
00:00:05
understand how much it does hurt people.
00:00:07
I remember 207 like that was horrific.
00:00:11
>> How often do you think about 2019?
00:00:13
>> Pretty regular
00:00:14
>> really.
00:00:15
>> Yeah. He was probably not the most
00:00:18
talented rugby player. Definitely the
00:00:20
most best work ethic. Mentally the
00:00:22
toughest. In the end, he was the
00:00:24
greatest rugby player of all time. I
00:00:26
think he always knew I I wanted to talk
00:00:28
to him if I said, "Oh, let's go and have
00:00:29
a cup of tea." So, we went and had a cup
00:00:32
of tea and I said, "You know, I reckon
00:00:34
there's only one thing that's going to
00:00:35
stop us winning the World Cup." And he
00:00:38
said, "What's that?" And I said, "Yeah."
00:00:40
>> One of the players um in your team in
00:00:42
Japan is um Aaron Smith.
00:00:45
>> Like to say huge sorry to my partner,
00:00:49
Tegan.
00:00:49
>> Why didn't you throw him to the Wolves
00:00:51
at the time?
00:00:53
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:56
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:57
there's a top performance in New
00:00:58
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:00
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:02
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:04
hole in one in
00:01:08
it again.
00:01:09
>> Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
00:01:11
>> Top tier.
00:01:11
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:14
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:15
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:17
investments. Get in here Finn. Maximize.
00:01:20
Generate. Putting performance first.
00:01:28
Sir Steve Hansen, welcome to my podcast.
00:01:31
>> Yeah, thanks very much for having us and
00:01:33
just call me Steve and we good things.
00:01:34
>> Oh, really?
00:01:35
>> Yeah.
00:01:37
>> Does the knighthood thing not sit
00:01:39
comfortably with you or
00:01:41
>> Oh, it's okay. But, you know, I've
00:01:43
always been my parents called me Steve
00:01:45
and that's who I am. So, uh, I think the
00:01:48
SU thing is a reflection really of a
00:01:50
whole group of people who worked really
00:01:52
hard for a long time and got some great
00:01:54
rugby results. So, um, yeah, it's not
00:01:58
it's not just mine.
00:02:01
>> Just before you go any further, I'll
00:02:02
just check the mic level. Andy, is it
00:02:03
okay with um Steve sitting back like
00:02:05
that or
00:02:06
>> Sorry, I'm going to Yeah, it's
00:02:09
>> I need this much closer to your mouth if
00:02:11
you can, Steve.
00:02:15
>> Big old mob.
00:02:17
It's very phallic.
00:02:19
>> Um, so I thank you so much for for
00:02:21
coming on my podcast. I really
00:02:23
appreciate it. I reached out to uh one
00:02:25
of your sons on Instagram.
00:02:27
>> Yeah. Ollie.
00:02:28
>> Yeah. Flicked him a random DM and um
00:02:30
Yeah. How did that conversation go? Did
00:02:32
he he messaged you and asked you if you
00:02:34
were keen or
00:02:35
>> uh he said some guy's reached out and
00:02:37
wants to do a podcast with you and
00:02:39
here's his number or something. So
00:02:42
here we are.
00:02:43
>> Yeah. So, I I I emailed you and um your
00:02:46
reply could not have been more
00:02:47
courteous. Like, you replied um
00:02:49
apologizing for the um delay. Um and and
00:02:53
then here we are. And I wasn't sure what
00:02:54
to expect because there's this sort of
00:02:56
um
00:02:58
feels like there's almost like two Steve
00:02:59
Hansen. Like there's um the Steve Hansen
00:03:01
that perhaps the media think of and that
00:03:03
some people seen which is quite an
00:03:05
intimidating scary guy. And then there's
00:03:06
the Steve Hansen which if you speak to
00:03:08
players that you've coached speak about
00:03:09
which uh sounds like it's the most
00:03:11
lovely gentle giant imaginable.
00:03:15
>> Well, I guess that's for other people to
00:03:17
judge and I just try to be me and uh the
00:03:20
media and I we had our moments and
00:03:23
especially early on. um I didn't
00:03:25
probably handle them that well and
00:03:27
wasn't until I
00:03:29
you know got the opportunity to be the
00:03:31
head coach that I realized that I had to
00:03:33
do things a bit differently and spent
00:03:35
some great time with Ian Fraser was a
00:03:37
wonderful man and a good strategist and
00:03:41
he straightened me up a we bit on how we
00:03:43
should approach it. So just became
00:03:46
easier to just to be myself. So,
00:03:48
>> m
00:03:49
>> but you know it is uh it is a a job that
00:03:53
requires
00:03:54
um to be open and honest, but it also I
00:03:58
think it's a job that you've sometimes
00:03:59
got to protect your player. So, it's a
00:04:01
fine balance.
00:04:03
>> I'm looking forward to deconstructing
00:04:04
all that. Um yeah, the idea of this
00:04:07
podcast is to try and get a a a portrait
00:04:10
of the man Steve Hansen. Um not just the
00:04:12
job that you've you've done. Um even
00:04:14
though that that job you did it's like
00:04:16
so fascinating and it's such a big and
00:04:18
important role especially in New Zealand
00:04:19
and you you finished at the age of 60
00:04:21
and you'd been in that role for like
00:04:23
what was quarter of your life.
00:04:25
>> Yeah. Well a lot of time but you know
00:04:28
it's a privilege to be able to coach the
00:04:30
All Blacks or be part of the All Black
00:04:31
team and the hardest people or it's
00:04:35
hardest on the other people in your
00:04:37
life. you know, they make all the
00:04:38
sacrifices because they're missing out
00:04:42
on dad time or husband time or friend
00:04:45
time. So, for me, that's the reason why
00:04:49
I gave up in the end because, you know,
00:04:51
it was time to give back to those
00:04:52
people.
00:04:55
>> So, in anticipation of doing this, I got
00:04:57
hold of a copy of the book um the legacy
00:04:59
by Gregor Paul.
00:05:01
>> How how would you describe that? It's
00:05:02
not like Is it a biog and would you say
00:05:05
is it is it an authorized biography or
00:05:07
an unauthorized biography?
00:05:08
>> Uh well I didn't authorize it but Greger
00:05:11
and and um can't remember the publishing
00:05:15
company they wanted to do a book and
00:05:18
they were at me and at me or the
00:05:21
publishing company was at me and at me
00:05:22
and I said no I don't want to write one
00:05:24
and then they commissioned Greger to
00:05:27
write one. Um, and then it came down to
00:05:32
him asking me, "Well, if I do write it,
00:05:36
would you be prepared to talk to me?"
00:05:38
And so, well, may as well, if you've got
00:05:41
questions, I'll talk to you, but it's
00:05:42
not my book. It's your book. And, uh, I
00:05:45
haven't received any money from it, so
00:05:47
it's definitely not my book. But, you
00:05:49
know, it is what it is. And, um, always
00:05:53
felt that, you know, if you wanted to
00:05:54
know my story, then just go on Google.
00:05:57
It's all there. So,
00:06:02
I'm not into bookw writing. I think, you
00:06:05
know, a lot of to sell books, people
00:06:07
have to do things that they normally
00:06:09
wouldn't do. So,
00:06:11
>> so that so that have you read that book?
00:06:14
>> Uh, not really. No.
00:06:17
>> So, would you would you describe it as a
00:06:19
great work of fiction?
00:06:21
>> Uh, well, Greg is a good writer. I think
00:06:23
he's the best rugby writer out there.
00:06:24
So, you know, it was an honor to have
00:06:26
him to write it. And I I guess it's uh a
00:06:30
reflection on, you know, the group's
00:06:32
work that we did during that period of
00:06:34
time to have them want to record uh what
00:06:38
happened, but um
00:06:40
now I haven't read it. Parts of it I've
00:06:43
seen obviously, but I haven't read it.
00:06:46
No.
00:06:46
>> So, the book's called The Legacy. Is
00:06:48
legacy something you you you think
00:06:50
about?
00:06:52
>> Not personally, but for the All Blacks,
00:06:53
I do. I think the there is a legacy with
00:06:56
the Olex. There's a an understanding
00:06:59
that you have a responsibility to when
00:07:01
you enter into that framework
00:07:04
that you you will have a story told
00:07:07
about your time there and but the
00:07:10
greatest story is the All Blacks
00:07:11
themselves. So, it's team first,
00:07:13
individual second, but how do you want
00:07:15
that story to read or be told when you
00:07:19
finish? And and and uh you know, New
00:07:22
Zealand public's really demanding. They
00:07:23
want a great story to be told. Um, but
00:07:27
the unique thing about the All Blacks, I
00:07:29
think, is the people within it, uh,
00:07:32
during my time anyway, they all wanted
00:07:34
it to be a great story and they all
00:07:35
wanted to be better every day. They
00:07:37
worked really hard at it. And um you we
00:07:39
had some wonderful players who drove
00:07:41
that and um you know people will make
00:07:45
their own opinions whether we were able
00:07:48
to be better than we were when we
00:07:49
started but I think um
00:07:53
it was a period of rugby where New
00:07:54
Zealand could be proud. I think the team
00:07:56
and the fans felt like they were united
00:07:59
and together so
00:08:00
>> and we had some good results.
00:08:02
>> And you're immensely proud of that
00:08:04
period. Yeah, I'm immensely proud of uh
00:08:08
the hard work that went into doing it
00:08:10
and um you know the people I worked with
00:08:14
and and uh you know how hard they worked
00:08:18
and
00:08:20
and the achievements they made, the
00:08:21
players, the growth in the players, not
00:08:23
just as rugby players but as men and and
00:08:27
women because we had women in the group
00:08:29
as well. So everybody grew together and
00:08:32
it wasn't always perfect. uh it never is
00:08:34
in life. You make mistakes and
00:08:37
>> but if you own those mistakes and and um
00:08:41
you can move on together. So very proud
00:08:44
of it.
00:08:44
>> There's um a photo from that book, The
00:08:47
Legacy, which I've got um it's a young
00:08:50
Steve Hansen.
00:08:52
>> I'm just wondering like when you see
00:08:53
that photo, how is the man sitting in
00:08:54
front of me today the same? And how is
00:08:57
he different to that guy?
00:08:59
Uh well, probably
00:09:03
similar but different. As we all get
00:09:05
older, we get a little bit smarter or
00:09:08
mature. Some would say I've taken a long
00:09:09
time to mature, but um particularly my
00:09:12
wife. But um
00:09:15
look, I
00:09:17
from a mental side of life, I think I'm
00:09:20
a lot stronger than I was back then.
00:09:22
Understood very little. You know, then I
00:09:26
was in a hurry. I wanted to you know
00:09:30
achieve things and do things and didn't
00:09:33
understand
00:09:34
um the importance of you know uh
00:09:37
psychology and sport. Um however
00:09:42
uh because of that time I became a
00:09:45
better coach probably.
00:09:48
>> Takes time doesn't it?
00:09:50
>> Oh it does. Yeah. And uh you've been
00:09:52
through it yourself. You know what it's
00:09:54
like. It's life brings things to you
00:09:57
that challenge you and you either deal
00:10:00
with them really well or or you struggle
00:10:02
with them and and then find ways to deal
00:10:05
with them. Well, so
00:10:06
>> it's not really uh the struggles that
00:10:09
matter. It's it's how you end up dealing
00:10:11
with them.
00:10:12
>> Mhm.
00:10:14
>> So, you've got many nicknames. Um, one
00:10:16
of them is uh, Shag, which um, from what
00:10:20
I can understand, it's like it's it's
00:10:22
um, it's an exciting nickname, but it's
00:10:24
quite a boring story.
00:10:26
>> It's not that exciting either. Um,
00:10:29
>> no, but the mind the when you hear the
00:10:31
nickname Shag, you think, "Oh, maybe
00:10:33
he's a roofer back in his younger days."
00:10:34
>> Well, no, we don't want to go there. So,
00:10:37
um,
00:10:39
no, the story is really boring,
00:10:41
actually. It was Andrew Mertens who's I
00:10:44
coached both at club level and uh
00:10:46
provincial and so forth. But he uh he
00:10:51
was a young guy uh very smart with a
00:10:54
quip and Steve Chu and I were both
00:10:56
working with Canterbury at the time and
00:10:58
two Steves didn't work so he just said
00:11:00
call him Shag cuz he calls everybody
00:11:02
else Shaq. So boring story. H other
00:11:07
nicknames. I don't know if this is an
00:11:08
authorized one or not, but this was in
00:11:10
the book. Last word. Is that a nickname?
00:11:12
Uh no, there was certainly something
00:11:15
people will say. And
00:11:18
uh you know, particularly when I was
00:11:20
younger, I I'd want to win everything.
00:11:22
And if it was an argument or a
00:11:24
discussion, it would become an argument
00:11:26
and I would want to win it. And so I'd
00:11:28
want the last word. I always used to
00:11:30
say, well, I can say the last word
00:11:32
because I've got the,
00:11:34
you know, I can find the last thing to
00:11:36
say. But in the end, you sort of grow up
00:11:38
and you work out, well, you're not
00:11:40
wanting anything really. You're only
00:11:41
getting the last word cuz everyone's
00:11:42
sick of it or they've left and you're
00:11:44
only there talking to yourself. So, but
00:11:48
>> you do have a sharp sharp mind and a
00:11:50
sharp tongue. H have you have you ever
00:11:52
lost an argument?
00:11:54
>> Oh, lose plenty of time.
00:11:58
Yeah, certainly not the boss at home.
00:12:01
>> Okay. And one one more nickname. Um
00:12:03
Stanley.
00:12:06
>> What's that? Like an old is an alter
00:12:07
ego? Is it a nickname? What is it?
00:12:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's as of recent times.
00:12:11
And again, that's the competitive side
00:12:13
of me. Um
00:12:15
good friends of ours down in Monica. She
00:12:18
uh Peanut and and um
00:12:23
Duchy Vermuan uh and Peanut name
00:12:27
Stanley. She said, "Oh, Stanley's coming
00:12:29
out to play." Um and it stucks and you
00:12:34
know, again, it's interesting because
00:12:36
you learn sometimes you can be too
00:12:38
competitive and and sometimes it's okay
00:12:41
to let other people win. So, but yeah,
00:12:44
Stanley is probably the the one that
00:12:48
stuck around the most.
00:12:50
>> What does Stanley look like? Is he a Is
00:12:52
he a sore loser? Is he a um is he a
00:12:55
confrontational winner? What is he?
00:12:57
>> Uh he's not a confrontational winner and
00:12:59
he's not a sore loser. He's just in the
00:13:01
fight when the fight's on and then when
00:13:03
it's over, it's over. But, you know,
00:13:05
he'll do whatever he has to do to win, I
00:13:07
guess. And yeah, so we have to keep him
00:13:10
under control. Are you are you just
00:13:12
ruthlessly competitive about everything?
00:13:15
>> It would appear that way. Yeah.
00:13:17
>> Yeah.
00:13:19
>> I've read stories about like numerous
00:13:21
other All Blacks over the years. Like
00:13:22
you you hear about someone like say Zan
00:13:24
Brookke and had have competitions about
00:13:26
who could make a cup of tea the fastest.
00:13:28
So you there'd be two bits of
00:13:30
condensation running down a glass pane
00:13:32
and had want to have bets on that. Is
00:13:34
that Does that sound familiar?
00:13:36
>> Uh yeah. Yeah, I try and avoid making a
00:13:38
cup of tea if I could, but um
00:13:44
there's a I play for a golf trophy with
00:13:46
a friend of mine um and it came about
00:13:50
because we were playing for five bucks.
00:13:52
It was the money wasn't the problem, but
00:13:54
we played into the dark because I wanted
00:13:57
to win. Whoever won the last hole won
00:14:00
and I kept I'd win or get back to all
00:14:04
square. And I just wouldn't give up
00:14:06
until he said, "Oh, for Christ sake, you
00:14:08
just win the hole so we can go."
00:14:10
And so he framed it. He framed it. And
00:14:14
uh so yeah, it's I just want to win.
00:14:17
Yeah. And I I I I'm not a a person who
00:14:23
enters into something to lose. Um, and
00:14:26
it's been,
00:14:29
you know, with me since childhood
00:14:30
really, I guess. And, uh, at times it
00:14:33
gets in the way. Um, early on, we're a
00:14:37
blended family. And early on,
00:14:40
uh, I guess playing cards with the kids,
00:14:42
like all of a sudden no one wants to
00:14:44
play cards with Steve, so Stanley
00:14:46
obviously was out and about then. So,
00:14:49
you know, it's just learning to relax
00:14:52
and enjoy it rather than be so
00:14:55
competitive.
00:14:56
>> Are you still like that now as a man in
00:14:57
your 60s or is it dimmed a bit?
00:15:00
>> Uh, it's probably under control a bit. I
00:15:02
don't know if it's dimmed, but it's
00:15:04
control.
00:15:05
>> It's still a work on.
00:15:06
>> Yeah, it is.
00:15:08
>> That's because I used to be like that,
00:15:09
like ruthlessly competitive. And then
00:15:11
with things that I had no no reasonable
00:15:14
right to be competitive about. Like I
00:15:15
play golf and I'd throw my clubs and I'd
00:15:17
throw tantrums and it's like I'm not
00:15:19
Ryan Fox. I'm not Tiger Woods. I've got
00:15:21
no right to think that was going to be a
00:15:22
good shot.
00:15:24
>> I'm not a I'm not a club thrower or
00:15:26
anything like that. Like I don't sulk
00:15:27
about it. I just I'm in the fight, you
00:15:30
know, and
00:15:33
there's no reason for me to be like that
00:15:35
other than it's about well I I want to
00:15:38
say I won and
00:15:40
>> I don't know why I'm like that but but I
00:15:43
I understand I am and I understand that
00:15:46
at certain times it's got to be
00:15:47
controlled but it was okay uh
00:15:51
you know when it really mattered and we
00:15:53
needed to win it was a it was a great
00:15:55
attribute but at other times
00:15:58
Um, you know, I had to learn that it
00:16:00
wasn't about the result, it was about
00:16:02
the process early on in my coaching
00:16:04
career. And, you know, was a wonderful
00:16:07
thing to learn because once you learn
00:16:09
that the process is more important than
00:16:11
the outcome, you then get to focus on
00:16:13
the right stuff rather than the outcome.
00:16:16
>> I heard a quote from you, I think this
00:16:18
was on another podcast, um, that with
00:16:20
most humans, their greatest strength is
00:16:21
also their greatest weakness.
00:16:23
>> Yeah.
00:16:23
>> Is that is that what it would be for
00:16:24
you? Oh, 100%. You know, um I I can
00:16:29
remember a couple of times even with the
00:16:31
the All Blacks when
00:16:34
or when coaching once was with
00:16:36
Canterbury and once with the All Blacks
00:16:37
and we'd been successful um with
00:16:41
Canterbury and I came back and coached
00:16:43
poorly because it was all about the
00:16:44
results and ended up having to apologize
00:16:46
to the group the next year because I was
00:16:49
the person who was making it too hard
00:16:51
for them to be able to to do their job.
00:16:54
and I come out come focus and the same
00:16:56
thing happened one season in the all
00:16:58
black so one part of the all black
00:17:01
season um and once it becomes about
00:17:06
yourself or becomes about the result you
00:17:08
just don't lose control of of what you
00:17:11
really need to be doing so
00:17:13
>> again had to apologize and
00:17:16
>> give yourself an up and get on with it
00:17:18
again you know
00:17:19
>> I love those oneliners they where they
00:17:22
come from they from your your dad days
00:17:23
There's so many. There's um the one
00:17:26
about um you reporters saying that they
00:17:29
never make statues of critics or
00:17:31
reporters.
00:17:32
>> Um
00:17:33
>> that was a that was uh Jim Kay's I think
00:17:37
he
00:17:37
>> Oh, no. I've got the Jim K one. You're
00:17:39
like Jim, you you've been on TV for 3
00:17:40
minutes and you think your [ __ ] don't
00:17:42
stick.
00:17:42
>> Yeah. Well, that was that came from the
00:17:45
statue on
00:17:47
during a period of time when I was
00:17:49
assistant coach and
00:17:52
uh
00:17:54
we um we were struggling to win line out
00:17:57
ball and I was in charge of line outs.
00:17:58
But people didn't understand. They just
00:18:02
look at the result and they don't
00:18:03
understand that if you've only got two
00:18:04
locks, it's pretty easy to shut down
00:18:06
your line out if you only got two
00:18:07
jumpers. And at that stage, we had two
00:18:09
jumpers. cuz we had Jerry Collins
00:18:13
uh who wasn't a line out forward, didn't
00:18:15
want to be a line out forward. Um and we
00:18:17
had Richie just learning to jump and
00:18:19
Rodney just so just learn to jump. So
00:18:22
and South Africa had uh Bakies and and
00:18:25
Victor who were very very good line out
00:18:27
fors anyway. They shut they were
00:18:28
shutting us down all over the place to
00:18:30
the point where I think Bies have won
00:18:32
Tess and and Hamilton. They won the
00:18:35
first three lineups. We won the the
00:18:38
fourth one and and um Peter Davilius
00:18:41
intercepted a pass between Mar and
00:18:44
Conrad and scored under the bar and and
00:18:47
Buckyy's run back and went past Victor.
00:18:49
He said, "Oh, I think we should let them
00:18:50
win some more lineups."
00:18:53
So anyway, uh we were getting heavily
00:18:56
criticized and with all of us, the
00:18:59
players were and and as was I and I
00:19:02
didn't I don't mind criticism of myself
00:19:04
because you know I can deal with that
00:19:07
but I don't like them particularly when
00:19:09
they don't know the full story and they
00:19:10
don't want to hear the full story.
00:19:13
However, um went to this press
00:19:15
conference and
00:19:17
something about critics came up from Jim
00:19:19
Kay's and Andrew Chev was there too.
00:19:22
Both of whom I now get on really well
00:19:24
with and I said, "Well, Jack Gibson, the
00:19:27
old league coach said, you know, they
00:19:29
don't build statues for critics." And
00:19:31
then Jim Case couldn't help himself. He
00:19:33
he goes, "Do you think they'll build one
00:19:35
for you?" And I said, "No, I don't. I
00:19:38
don't think they'll build one for you
00:19:39
either, Jim." And walked off. And Z said
00:19:42
something as well which I didn't forget
00:19:45
for a while. And and uh
00:19:47
>> what did he say?
00:19:48
>> Oh, he said something. Can you He asked
00:19:50
me if we were bringing people in to
00:19:51
help. And we'd had a lot of people in.
00:19:54
What we needed to do was just get better
00:19:56
at what we were trying to do and it
00:19:58
takes time.
00:20:00
>> And he said, "Could I look myself in the
00:20:02
mirror?" And of course he had a bed. And
00:20:03
I said, "You have a shave every day."
00:20:05
Said, "You know what about yourself?"
00:20:06
And so it was like a boxing match
00:20:10
really. And
00:20:13
of course the pens mightier than the
00:20:15
sword. So I came a distant second. But I
00:20:19
uh carried it for a while and I think I
00:20:22
let loose at Jimmy and Mar
00:20:25
at one training run. He it just went
00:20:29
left when it should have probably gone
00:20:31
nowhere but and he cpped it. So, and
00:20:34
then after that, that's when I went and
00:20:36
saw
00:20:38
Fraser
00:20:39
>> and we had a cup of coffee with uh well,
00:20:41
I had a co coffee with Jimmy and we had
00:20:44
a talked our way through it and anyway,
00:20:47
we
00:20:48
>> got where we got to in the end.
00:20:49
>> Yeah, I was going to I was going to um
00:20:52
get to that later in the piece, but
00:20:53
since we're there, we may as well get on
00:20:54
to it now. So, um you're seeing Ian
00:20:56
Fraser um who's a respected journalist
00:20:58
and former CEO of TVNZ. Did that um like
00:21:02
was someone higher up than you in the
00:21:04
NZ? Are you were they like Steve you
00:21:05
need to work on your relationship with
00:21:07
the media or is it something that you
00:21:09
thought was necessary?
00:21:11
>> Uh I knew that
00:21:13
the media and I weren't getting on well.
00:21:16
Um I was fighting them and
00:21:19
you know they
00:21:21
they were having cracks and then I' I'd
00:21:24
come back out rather than being
00:21:26
informative with them and and um
00:21:28
trusting them. I I wasn't. And so it
00:21:32
was, you know, it was tip for tat
00:21:34
really. And as I said before, like they
00:21:36
get the last say cuz they get it's in
00:21:38
print and everybody believes it whether
00:21:41
it's true or not. Um so I knew I had to
00:21:44
go and do something especially if I was
00:21:45
going to become the head coach.
00:21:48
And um it was around that time I thought
00:21:50
well who will I go and see? And
00:21:53
I always admired Ian. He was from Otago
00:21:56
as same as myself. my mogill boy. So, we
00:22:01
hit it off really well. Um, and
00:22:06
we spent a lot of time together and and
00:22:09
uh our relationship became really close
00:22:11
and I trust him a lot and you know we
00:22:15
would talk our way through things and
00:22:18
but you know his big message was just be
00:22:20
yourself and
00:22:23
and be as honest as you can be and then
00:22:25
if you can't be honest then tell them
00:22:26
you can't be honest about that and it's
00:22:28
not something we need we can talk about.
00:22:30
But was it was it about softening the
00:22:32
edges or
00:22:33
>> Well, that happened
00:22:36
um more
00:22:39
as a result of the change of the mindset
00:22:41
really. No, and again, I'd met Ian
00:22:45
probably need to explain that a little
00:22:48
bit. I met Ian through a coaching
00:22:50
accelerator course I was on that was run
00:22:51
by New Zealand High Performance
00:22:54
and had done a a um a session with the
00:22:59
whole group. Um and uh you know I
00:23:03
thought well here's a guy that's talking
00:23:04
a bit of sense here. So that's where we
00:23:07
tapped into it. But I think the mindset
00:23:09
was the biggest thing that you know
00:23:10
they're not the enemy. They're actually
00:23:13
a group of people who are there to pass
00:23:18
on the messages that you want them to
00:23:20
pass on to the public. And
00:23:24
so once I started thinking about what's
00:23:26
the messages I want for the public to
00:23:28
hear regardless of the question they
00:23:30
asked, I just used to answer the
00:23:32
question that I wanted to answer.
00:23:33
>> And sometimes I would ask questions I
00:23:35
didn't want to answer. So, I just go
00:23:37
back to, okay, well, here's the two or
00:23:39
three things that I really want to get
00:23:42
people to understand about this team or
00:23:44
this player or or this decision. So, I
00:23:47
just go there and and invariably
00:23:51
they would leave the question they'd ask
00:23:53
because I'd given them something that
00:23:55
was better for them to write about
00:23:57
anyway.
00:24:00
>> Was it was that a hard change? see seems
00:24:01
like quite a significant sort of almost
00:24:04
personality change in a way.
00:24:07
>> Uh I think it might have been harder if
00:24:09
I'd still been the assistant coach, but
00:24:11
because I took over as head coach, you
00:24:14
sort of it's quite easy to mold your own
00:24:16
media plan. So
00:24:19
>> um and it's easier to lead that than to
00:24:22
follow it. M
00:24:23
>> you know um there's times when
00:24:27
there would be things I would maybe want
00:24:29
to say but I couldn't say because we're
00:24:32
allowed to say whereas when you're the
00:24:36
at the top of the tree you can say what
00:24:38
you want to say
00:24:39
>> within reason.
00:24:41
>> Speaking of press conferences there it's
00:24:43
it's unrelated to the media in a way but
00:24:45
um it's just like a sort of viral moment
00:24:47
that I saw on TikTok. Um and I wanted to
00:24:49
know if this was um a slip or
00:24:51
deliberate. So it's uh I think it's you
00:24:54
Richie Mccor maybe Ian Fost on the other
00:24:56
side of you and there's you struggle
00:24:58
with the airpiece
00:25:00
>> I don't know what it was and Richie's
00:25:02
trying to um fiddle with your um your
00:25:04
dial to get the volume up and you you
00:25:06
you you drop an Fbomb in a press
00:25:08
conference. Was that um for comedic
00:25:11
purposes or was that a slip or
00:25:14
>> Oh, no. I think it was just reality and
00:25:17
and uh it's quite a descriptive word.
00:25:19
So, I probably used it when I shouldn't
00:25:21
have, but
00:25:24
luckily enough, we had enough uh
00:25:26
goodwill in the media at that point to
00:25:28
be able to cope with it.
00:25:29
>> Uh it it's it's a really good moment.
00:25:30
Like, it's just so you just don't see an
00:25:33
All Black uh head coach dropping an
00:25:34
Fbomb at a press conference. So, um, you
00:25:37
know, there was something really
00:25:38
endearing about it.
00:25:39
>> Well, we just tried to be as natural as
00:25:41
we could.
00:25:42
>> And, you know, like the whole aim of
00:25:46
what Ian and I wanted to do from a media
00:25:48
point of view was to just be a normal
00:25:51
New Zealander.
00:25:53
And, uh,
00:25:55
you know, that's I guess I I it's
00:25:58
probably why I prefer Steve rather than
00:26:00
Sir Steve. You know, just we're just
00:26:02
normal people. I just happen to be okay
00:26:05
at coaching a footy team and very lucky
00:26:08
to be able to coach a very very good
00:26:10
footy team with a lot of other good uh
00:26:13
staff.
00:26:15
>> I I've had a few sers on on the podcast.
00:26:17
Um you you corrected me, told me just
00:26:20
Steve will do. Um Sir Peter Beck said
00:26:22
exactly the same thing. Just call me
00:26:24
Pete. Um I think Sir Peter Leech is the
00:26:26
only one that insisted on
00:26:30
on being called sir. Uh that it's quite
00:26:33
an honor though, right? Like getting a
00:26:35
getting a nighthood for for doing what
00:26:37
you love and doing it at such a high
00:26:39
level.
00:26:40
>> It is. And
00:26:43
when you get the letter, you know, I
00:26:45
know I spent a lot of time um
00:26:50
actually
00:26:51
making the decision. Am I going to
00:26:53
accept this or not?
00:26:55
>> Really?
00:26:55
>> Yeah. And
00:26:58
it wasn't until
00:27:01
my wife and Ian actually
00:27:04
pointed out, well, it's not just about
00:27:06
accepting it for yourself. And once I
00:27:10
got my head around that, it was easy to
00:27:12
say yes because
00:27:16
yeah, okay, you're the head coach and
00:27:18
but you're really only one part of the
00:27:23
wheel spoke. there's many spokes and
00:27:25
there's many parts of it that make the
00:27:28
team become what it was.
00:27:31
Um, and I just had the privilege of
00:27:33
leading that group. Um, so on once I got
00:27:36
my head around, well, actually I'm I'm
00:27:38
representing them by saying yes.
00:27:42
Um, you know, it was easy, but up until
00:27:44
then I had, to be fair, I just struggle
00:27:47
with it a week.
00:27:47
>> Yeah. Do you do you have like a like a
00:27:50
man cave or an office at home with
00:27:52
things in like your like your metal the
00:27:55
knife metal or
00:27:56
>> Well, we got a
00:27:58
a man cave with a bar and and uh and a
00:28:02
few things in it and the office is just
00:28:04
off that and my wife actually did the
00:28:07
office and there's a few rugby things in
00:28:09
that. Yeah, there's a bit of memorabilia
00:28:11
there but
00:28:11
>> like what?
00:28:13
>> Uh there's a bit of horse racing stuff.
00:28:15
Uh we're lucky enough to own a very good
00:28:16
raceh horse called Nature Strip. Uh
00:28:18
there's some photos of of moments. Um
00:28:22
now the two World Cups photos are up
00:28:24
there. Uh there's a rugby jersey that
00:28:27
the team gave gave me when I left.
00:28:30
>> Yeah,
00:28:31
>> that's about it, I think.
00:28:33
>> Yeah.
00:28:33
>> Lots of photos of the kids.
00:28:35
>> How do you feel when you see that stuff
00:28:36
now? Like I feel like you're a man
00:28:38
that's um got like got a growth mindset.
00:28:39
So even though you're in your mid60s
00:28:41
now, you're still like looking forward
00:28:42
to what's next. Um you do you do you
00:28:45
allow yourself reflective moments and
00:28:48
>> uh yeah I think it's important to
00:28:49
reflect every now and again. Um
00:28:52
you know and like you can reflect easy
00:28:55
on the stuff that got away like I think
00:28:58
2019 got away from us. One bad week cost
00:29:02
us the an opportunity to be in the final
00:29:05
and everyone said we played poorly in
00:29:08
290 but we didn't. We beat three sides
00:29:10
that were number one in the world going
00:29:11
into the World Cup or as a at the end of
00:29:14
the World Cup. Ireland, Wales, and South
00:29:17
Africa who who won it. But we didn't
00:29:21
have a great England week and and and we
00:29:24
didn't have a great performance because
00:29:25
of it. And and I I reflect a lot on that
00:29:29
week. What could I have done different?
00:29:31
Could have made some different
00:29:32
selections.
00:29:34
Um ratty ratty ra. And then I've got to
00:29:36
bring myself back to, okay, well, you
00:29:38
got one week wrong, but maybe you got a
00:29:41
few other ones right. So,
00:29:44
you know, but that's the competitive
00:29:45
side again, too, cuz you want to win
00:29:47
everything. And the All Blacks are good
00:29:50
because they want to be
00:29:53
they hurt when they lose
00:29:55
>> and you know, the staff are no
00:29:56
different.
00:29:58
some some other um guests on the
00:30:01
podcast, Shane Cameron for example, he
00:30:03
he told me he thought about the loss to
00:30:05
David Tu every day for like seven years.
00:30:07
>> Yeah.
00:30:07
>> Uh Dion Nash, he said sometimes in the
00:30:10
shower, even now he'll think about you
00:30:12
things that happened like 20 years ago
00:30:13
on the cricket pitch. Um how often do
00:30:16
you think about 2019?
00:30:19
>> Pretty regular
00:30:20
>> really.
00:30:20
>> Yeah. as in oh
00:30:24
probably once a month or you know if
00:30:26
you're talking about things or
00:30:30
you know World Cup comes around you
00:30:32
think about it a bit more often but you
00:30:35
know I'm at peace with it as I said just
00:30:37
a minute ago I think
00:30:40
if you can acknowledge to yourself oh
00:30:42
okay we could have done that week better
00:30:44
and here's the things I would have done
00:30:45
better and and um
00:30:49
then you can acknowledge yourself. Oh,
00:30:52
actually, but that was one week out of I
00:30:54
don't know how many years I was there
00:30:55
for, so can't remember, but it was a lot
00:30:58
of weeks and we must have got a lot of
00:31:00
weeks right cuz we
00:31:02
>> we only dropped 10 games in that whole
00:31:04
period. So,
00:31:06
okay. Well, is it the end of the world?
00:31:09
No. But would you have liked to have won
00:31:11
it? Yes.
00:31:14
But did we do okay? Yeah, we did. So,
00:31:16
and then I move on and don't think about
00:31:18
it for a while.
00:31:20
I I think think members of the public
00:31:22
and people listening to this will
00:31:23
probably be um yeah pleased to to hear
00:31:25
that it still hurts you to a degree. You
00:31:27
know what I mean?
00:31:28
>> Yeah. Look, I think it's a misconception
00:31:32
around
00:31:35
uh I think the fans don't really
00:31:37
understand how much it does hurt people.
00:31:39
And I remember 207 like that was
00:31:42
horrific to get knocked out in the
00:31:45
quarterfinals when we were the best team
00:31:47
in the world at at that point. and we
00:31:50
just
00:31:52
didn't go to that World Cup
00:31:55
understanding what it takes to win one,
00:31:57
but losing it created,
00:32:00
you know, a a uh a learning opportunity
00:32:03
which allowed us to win two after that.
00:32:06
So,
00:32:07
>> but you you know, people would say to
00:32:09
me, "Oh, you realize, you know, I went
00:32:12
over to watch that and you guys went
00:32:13
there."
00:32:15
And I'd think I just quietly shake my
00:32:17
head and think to myself, well, yeah,
00:32:19
I'm pretty bloody keen to be there
00:32:20
ourselves, mate. So,
00:32:23
>> yeah. Sorry for ruining your holiday.
00:32:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You still got a
00:32:26
holiday, but we got one we didn't want.
00:32:30
>> Um, you you mentioned um the horse
00:32:32
racing thing before in your horse uh
00:32:34
nature strip. So, I think now's probably
00:32:35
a good time to go back to the early
00:32:36
years. So, um yeah, young Steve Hansen
00:32:39
from Mosgill. Um you wanted to be a
00:32:41
jockey.
00:32:42
>> I did. I uh my father was a um owner
00:32:48
trainer. We had a dairy farm. Um he had
00:32:52
many jobs but then he became a farmer
00:32:54
and dairy farmer there for a while. And
00:32:57
um we trained horses and I was small
00:33:00
enough in those days to ride them. And I
00:33:03
still uh think sometimes
00:33:07
in a different life I might have ended
00:33:09
up being a horse trainer. Uh cuz I just
00:33:11
I love the animal. I love the the the
00:33:14
racing scene and the people in it and um
00:33:18
but yeah, jockey would have been good.
00:33:20
>> Just sort of outgrew that, Dom, I not
00:33:23
sure what happened, but
00:33:26
>> not you. Could you be um like a sulky?
00:33:29
>> No. Do you still need to be little for
00:33:30
that?
00:33:32
>> I could have done that, but that didn't
00:33:33
I like riding them rather than sitting
00:33:35
behind them.
00:33:35
>> Yeah. So, your dad your dad de um sounds
00:33:39
like he was an amazing man. Uh I I heard
00:33:42
a quote from Mike Cron, the um scrum
00:33:44
guru, saying that sometimes when he
00:33:45
shuts his eyes, um he could swear like
00:33:48
you were de. Is that where the the
00:33:51
oneliners came from?
00:33:52
>> Oh, he's pretty good with oneliners. Our
00:33:55
whole his whole side of uh our family
00:33:58
are
00:34:00
comedians, I guess, but u sharp and with
00:34:05
the oneliners or we ditties and he had
00:34:08
heaps of them. So, um, growing up with
00:34:11
him, we spent a lot of time, uh,
00:34:14
together and,
00:34:16
um, I guess it just rubbed off and
00:34:18
>> Mhm.
00:34:19
>> Chrono's not too bad with oneliners
00:34:21
himself. So, him and dad spent a lot of
00:34:23
time together, too. Um, once we moved to
00:34:27
Christ Church and they did a lot of
00:34:28
coaching together.
00:34:30
>> So, yeah. Know,
00:34:32
>> what was the relationship with with your
00:34:34
dad and Andrew Mertens? I read a story
00:34:36
somewhere that like Mertz would just go
00:34:37
around and visit him and have cups of
00:34:39
tea or a beer.
00:34:40
>> Oh, everybody used to go around and see
00:34:41
him.
00:34:42
>> Is that right? Was he quite like quite
00:34:43
an identity?
00:34:45
>> I don't know if he was an identity. He
00:34:46
was just somebody that people were
00:34:48
endeared to. Um he he loved talking
00:34:52
about footy. He he was a man who was
00:34:55
before his time and his thinking about
00:34:57
the game. Um he challenged you as a
00:35:01
rugby player or as a coach to think
00:35:03
about
00:35:05
things in a bigger sense than just in
00:35:09
the one moment or
00:35:12
uh you know and like I we our dairy farm
00:35:16
was seven
00:35:18
and a half miles from Mosgill. So if we
00:35:22
played a home game, I got a 7 and 1/2
00:35:24
mile ride home in the car getting talked
00:35:26
to about how I could have done this or
00:35:28
what could I have done or how could we
00:35:31
have done something different or if it
00:35:33
was a game in Dened and it was twice as
00:35:36
long. So I got twice as long in the car.
00:35:37
So
00:35:40
and at the time you don't appreciate how
00:35:42
much teaching he's giving you. You
00:35:45
you're you're probably thinking, you
00:35:46
know, he's just
00:35:48
you can't do anything right. So you
00:35:50
become a little bit victimlike, but you
00:35:53
as you reflect on it later and as you
00:35:55
get older and mature, you understand,
00:35:57
well actually he's challenging me to
00:35:58
think here. And that's what he did all
00:36:00
his coaching. And he didn't give you the
00:36:03
answer. You had to find the answer
00:36:04
yourself. And it was probably something
00:36:06
I took with me right through my own
00:36:09
coaching. Like I wanted players to be
00:36:10
able to think for themselves as opposed
00:36:12
to me telling them.
00:36:15
>> Actually, that's something a lot of
00:36:16
people say about you. like they have a
00:36:17
conversation with you and you want them
00:36:19
to figure out the answer rather than you
00:36:21
just like tell them how it is.
00:36:23
>> Well, if they figure it out, then they
00:36:25
own it.
00:36:25
>> No, you know,
00:36:28
to me it was always a better way than
00:36:30
like we're doing this and and not and
00:36:32
you not knowing why we're doing it or
00:36:34
how we do it.
00:36:34
>> Yeah.
00:36:36
>> Yeah.
00:36:37
>> So, um your first job freezing work
00:36:40
inspector.
00:36:41
>> Meat inspector. Yeah. Um I had a job for
00:36:44
6 months before that which was at a
00:36:46
place called Spotlight Poles in Hornby
00:36:48
and it was horrific. It was the worst
00:36:50
job ever but it was until such time as I
00:36:53
could was after finishing school and and
00:36:56
joining the meet inspector I had to wait
00:36:59
um 6 months sorry to join. So I did that
00:37:02
and then went to the freezing works as
00:37:04
meat inspector was great. um some
00:37:07
wonderful wonderful characters in the
00:37:08
freezing works and it was a great
00:37:10
learning uh curve cuz you just didn't
00:37:13
judge people at all. You had to f treat
00:37:16
them as you found them and everyone has
00:37:18
their own story and you don't know their
00:37:20
story until you take time to work them
00:37:23
out. So there was some good men there.
00:37:28
>> How did you not stay there? I'm I'm just
00:37:30
thinking um I had some friends that left
00:37:32
school at the same time as me and there
00:37:33
was a freezing works just outside of
00:37:34
Palmerston North Long Freezing Works and
00:37:36
they uh if you were unskilled you could
00:37:38
go there and it was quite highly paid
00:37:39
work.
00:37:40
>> Yeah, it was great.
00:37:41
>> A lot of a lot of my mates I say a lot
00:37:43
like three of them end up getting sort
00:37:44
of stuck there
00:37:46
>> um because the money was good and Yeah.
00:37:48
How did you have the drive to pull
00:37:49
yourself out of that and do something
00:37:50
else?
00:37:51
>> Uh wasn't so much a drive to pull myself
00:37:53
out of it because I I loved it. I I
00:37:55
thought you know this it was a
00:37:57
university in its own right.
00:38:00
It was University of Life. So I I don't
00:38:02
see myself having to pull myself out of
00:38:04
it. But
00:38:05
>> what changed was I decided that
00:38:09
>> um I went overseas to play footy and
00:38:12
when I came back uh I just went in a
00:38:15
different direction. So, and then I
00:38:17
wanted to I did some sales repping and
00:38:21
um worked for a a company called Smith
00:38:24
Klein and Nordon, which was a drug
00:38:27
company selling drugs to vets like
00:38:30
drenches and and um
00:38:34
dog vaccines, cat vaccines. So, you and
00:38:37
that in itself was another learning
00:38:39
curve because you had to I'm not a great
00:38:42
cold caller.
00:38:43
I warm up to people, but you had to
00:38:45
learn to actually find ways to to break
00:38:48
down the barriers to be able to even get
00:38:50
in to speak to the vet, let alone before
00:38:52
you got, you know, once you get in
00:38:55
there. Otherwise, you couldn't sell
00:38:56
anything. So, that that was wonderful.
00:38:58
And then again, I went back overseas and
00:39:01
wanted to play footie overseas. I played
00:39:03
in France and then I came back and uh I
00:39:07
thought, right, oh, well, I'd always
00:39:09
thought about the police force, but I
00:39:11
didn't want to join when I was young. I
00:39:12
wanted to join when I was older and and
00:39:15
had a few more life skills and so I
00:39:17
ended up joining that and
00:39:20
um initially got rejected cuz I had uh
00:39:23
um melanoma on my back and they didn't
00:39:26
want me. They thought I was going to
00:39:27
die. So
00:39:29
we uh convinced them that wasn't going
00:39:30
to be the case. So then got in and and
00:39:33
uh I worked there for six years. Then I
00:39:35
became a coach.
00:39:38
>> Best and worst days on the job as a
00:39:40
police constable.
00:39:42
Uh best days are
00:39:45
uh you know when you're helping people.
00:39:48
Worst days are when you know you've got
00:39:50
to go and talk to people who have lost
00:39:52
somebody in their life and it's not
00:39:54
easy. So
00:39:56
>> tough.
00:39:57
>> Yeah. Uh what did you learn about human
00:39:59
behavior in that role that you were able
00:40:01
to take into coaching?
00:40:04
>> Yeah, that's a really good question. Um
00:40:08
obviously a number of things. one
00:40:11
reinforced what I'd learned in the
00:40:13
freezing works that everyone's got their
00:40:15
own story. So don't don't be too
00:40:17
judgmental.
00:40:19
Don't rock into something and and and
00:40:23
not know the facts before you make big
00:40:25
decisions about who's right and who's
00:40:27
wrong. Um
00:40:30
because I was a little older, I knew and
00:40:32
understood that people make mistakes. So
00:40:35
again,
00:40:37
don't be black and white. there's always
00:40:39
a little bit of gray in life and and um
00:40:42
so be a little bit empathetic um and
00:40:48
guiding rather than forceful. And the
00:40:51
last one was, you know, if you go in at
00:40:52
a 10, then it's only going to stay at
00:40:54
10. So, you're better to go in at a one
00:40:56
and and let it escalate if it has to.
00:40:58
But, um yeah, so calm. Just stay calm
00:41:02
and we'll see where it goes.
00:41:05
Um, why didn't you stay there and go
00:41:07
through the the ranks?
00:41:09
>> Oh, well, professional rugby came about
00:41:12
and uh I got the opportunity to coach
00:41:15
and
00:41:16
for me that was more exciting than being
00:41:18
a policeman.
00:41:19
>> Mhm. Yeah. Where where here is this sort
00:41:20
of mid to late 90s?
00:41:22
>> Yeah, late
00:41:27
90.
00:41:28
So I went in and so it's about 96 I left
00:41:31
I think six years there. today.
00:41:34
>> Yeah, I think you sort of touched upon
00:41:35
this um in the beginning of the chat. Um
00:41:38
or yeah, I've definitely heard about in
00:41:40
another interview you've done. Um in
00:41:42
your second year as Canterbury coach,
00:41:43
you described yourself as a prick.
00:41:45
>> Yeah. Well, that was the period I was
00:41:47
talking about before where I become
00:41:48
outcome focused and and really coached
00:41:51
poorly because it cuz I was too
00:41:53
demanding and
00:41:55
>> there wasn't a lot of uh care of the
00:41:58
athlete or or the approach was was wrong
00:42:03
and it was a good learning curve and it
00:42:05
read its head again later in life but
00:42:08
only the once so and I managed to see it
00:42:10
a lot quicker so dealt with it. Who who
00:42:13
was who was in the team then that we'
00:42:15
we'd know of uh when you called yourself
00:42:16
a pro? Was Razer in the team then?
00:42:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Razer was there. Back at her
00:42:20
and Marshy merch
00:42:23
very good sort.
00:42:24
>> Yeah. How would they reflect on that? So
00:42:25
say if Razer Robertson was here and say
00:42:28
Kieran Reed um you're both you know
00:42:31
fantastic guys who had you at very very
00:42:33
different stages of your career.
00:42:35
>> Like what would what would their
00:42:37
respective views be about your coaching
00:42:38
style?
00:42:40
>> Uh not too sure. Oh man, you probably
00:42:42
have to ask him. Razer, I know.
00:42:45
Ra Razer was uh Razer, as we all know.
00:42:49
He's
00:42:51
a little different and
00:42:54
>> Yeah. What was he like as a as he
00:42:56
>> as a player? He would be just 100 miles
00:42:59
an hour and no control. We had another
00:43:03
player at the time called Angus Gardner
00:43:05
who was a very very good player and they
00:43:08
both played seven and um so some games
00:43:12
we would start
00:43:14
uh Angus ahead of Razer because Razer's
00:43:17
energy was better coming off the bench
00:43:19
and then other days it would be you know
00:43:22
you start Razer because he he needed to
00:43:25
learn how to start a game and control
00:43:27
himself
00:43:28
>> and probably how I communicated that to
00:43:31
um didn't press his buttons, you know,
00:43:36
and uh one day he finally told me. He
00:43:38
said, "Well, Steve, that's not helping
00:43:39
me." And I said, "What? You know,
00:43:41
Christ, why don't you tell me?" He
00:43:44
waited. And he he knew I was pissed off.
00:43:46
And he said, "Oh, I shouldn't have told
00:43:48
you cuz you're pissed off." I'm not
00:43:49
pissed off you told me. I'm pissed off
00:43:50
you've waited 6 months to tell me cuz
00:43:53
we've wasted 6 months of you learning.
00:43:56
And so, you know, it was a good learning
00:43:59
curve that everybody's not the same and
00:44:01
everybody needs a a different button
00:44:05
sometimes than than just this one.
00:44:07
>> M
00:44:08
>> and some need a cuddle, some need a a
00:44:11
kick up the bum and and some, you know,
00:44:14
can cope with both
00:44:16
>> and so forth. So,
00:44:18
uh what would Rita say? Rita would
00:44:20
probably say, "Yeah, he's not too bad at
00:44:24
doing that, but you know, sometimes he
00:44:27
doesn't get it right." And and I'd agree
00:44:29
with him. Like, you don't get it right
00:44:30
all the time as a coach.
00:44:32
>> You don't get it all the right all the
00:44:33
time as a parent. Um, but
00:44:36
>> that's life, isn't it?
00:44:37
>> Well, yeah. And it comes from a place of
00:44:38
love and care
00:44:41
and and wanting uh the best for the
00:44:44
athlete or your child. and and sometimes
00:44:48
it hurts. You know, they don't like it,
00:44:50
but you're not there to be their best
00:44:52
friend. You're there to be their coach.
00:44:54
And and their job is to allow themselves
00:44:58
to be coached. It's the ones that don't
00:45:00
want to be coached that are hard to to
00:45:03
help.
00:45:03
>> Mhm.
00:45:05
Um Yeah. When was it that you realized
00:45:08
like vulnerability and and leadership
00:45:10
and coaching was a strength and not
00:45:12
necessarily a weakness? I'm not sure
00:45:15
really. I think it's just something that
00:45:17
I learned through my own life
00:45:20
experiences, both in the feas, both as a
00:45:22
policeman. Rugby, you could, you know,
00:45:25
just seeing how people responded.
00:45:28
Um, and I went through a rugby career
00:45:32
that had lots of ups and downs in it
00:45:34
myself. I mean, uh, back in my playing
00:45:36
career, you only had 21 uh people in the
00:45:40
squad. uh they didn't carry extra people
00:45:44
and I was always the 22nd guy. So I was
00:45:47
in and out of that Canterbury team a lot
00:45:49
and um under Alex and was a coach and he
00:45:52
was a brilliant coach and a great
00:45:54
tactician. Um
00:45:58
however,
00:46:00
it wasn't until I probably became a
00:46:02
coach myself that I worked out, well
00:46:06
it's not because you're not good enough,
00:46:07
it's just cuz there's not enough room.
00:46:11
and and
00:46:13
if they're going to carry an extra
00:46:14
person, he has to be able to either do
00:46:16
that job or do the job you did. And for
00:46:20
the team, it was better to have that
00:46:21
job. And usually came down to a guy
00:46:24
called Wayne Burley and myself. And
00:46:27
Bills could play first five or second
00:46:29
five. So we needed a cover for Smithy.
00:46:31
So a lot of the time
00:46:34
you don't learn that as a a player until
00:46:36
later in your life, but you get
00:46:38
frustrated by it. So learning those
00:46:41
things also helped me understand okay
00:46:45
when I took up coaching I said to myself
00:46:47
right how do I want to treat these
00:46:51
people how to and I always came back to
00:46:53
I would want to treat them how I wanted
00:46:55
to be treated as a player and I could
00:46:57
accept not being picked but just tell me
00:47:00
the real reasons
00:47:02
and and um and just treat them like
00:47:06
people don't treat them like they're
00:47:08
just a number and and back in the day,
00:47:12
you know, I had a lot of coaches who
00:47:16
who were from that generation. It wasn't
00:47:18
their fault.
00:47:20
>> That's that they they were dictated and
00:47:23
you just did as your adult.
00:47:24
>> Yeah.
00:47:25
>> And you didn't question. You didn't
00:47:26
challenge. You did certainly didn't want
00:47:28
to know why, but you did, but you didn't
00:47:30
ask why. And as coaching has grown and
00:47:34
and the generations have changed, you
00:47:36
know, we got generation, what are we up
00:47:38
to now,
00:47:40
>> Zed? I think so. No, Millennials, I
00:47:43
don't know what it's hard to keep up.
00:47:45
>> Yeah. And they're all different and they
00:47:47
all need things differently. But
00:47:48
>> at the end of the day though, they still
00:47:50
have the same desires as we all had.
00:47:54
Whether you're a boomer or whatever it
00:47:56
was before the boomers or what you know
00:47:57
everyone has the same desire and that's
00:47:59
to be successful
00:48:01
>> and and you know how how you teach them
00:48:04
to do that or how you help them to do
00:48:06
that might be subtly different and
00:48:08
that's probably art of coaching but
00:48:11
along the way
00:48:13
>> you find that if you're vulnerable you
00:48:15
work out well okay they trust you more
00:48:19
>> and and doesn't hurt to tell other
00:48:22
people your story cuz you want to know
00:48:24
theirs. So, it's got to be a two-way
00:48:27
thing.
00:48:28
>> Yeah. I I I've been doing this podcast
00:48:29
for 3 years now and I've sort of found
00:48:31
that it's um I call it like a
00:48:33
vulnerability exchange. So, there's some
00:48:35
people that I I can just sit back and
00:48:36
open, you know, ask a question and
00:48:38
they'll open up. Other people are a bit
00:48:39
more difficult. So, in those cases, I
00:48:41
sort of give a bit more of myself away
00:48:43
and
00:48:44
>> um it allows people to open up.
00:48:47
>> Um I've heard so many so many wonderful
00:48:49
stories about you. The studio we're
00:48:51
sitting in now, it's a good mate of
00:48:52
mine, Andy Row. It's called Red N Studio
00:48:53
in Christ Church just next door. He does
00:48:55
a podcast with Justin Marshall called um
00:48:57
Gbrands, Good Bad Rugby New Zealand. Um
00:49:00
Justin Marshall told a story about you
00:49:02
recently. Um I don't know if you
00:49:03
remember the story about him uh not
00:49:05
being selected. I think it was for a
00:49:07
Crusaders game against the Brumies and
00:49:09
he was sulking on the bus.
00:49:11
>> Yeah. No, it wasn't the Brumies. I think
00:49:13
it was South Africa. But he definitely
00:49:14
was sulking on the bus. Yeah. And he
00:49:16
wouldn't get off and
00:49:18
it was embarrassing for him. And I think
00:49:20
Robbie tried to get him off and he he
00:49:23
said, "No, I'm not getting off." And was
00:49:24
reading his book. And so I went on and
00:49:26
just said, "Look, mate, I don't care if
00:49:28
you get off the bus or not. Please
00:49:30
yourself." But there's a group of men
00:49:32
out there that have a lot of respect for
00:49:35
you. And every minute and every page
00:49:37
that you turn over in this bus is
00:49:39
they're losing respect for you. So you
00:49:40
please yourself, but I'm going
00:49:43
>> turned around and he said, "Oh, hang on.
00:49:44
I'm coming." So,
00:49:46
>> so it would have been just as easy for
00:49:47
you and understandable to say, "Get off
00:49:49
this [ __ ] bus,
00:49:51
>> you know." And
00:49:52
>> well, with Marie, that wasn't going to
00:49:53
work. Like, uh,
00:49:56
a very competitive man, Marie, and he's
00:50:00
he's stubborn. It's But that's okay.
00:50:04
That's what makes him who he is. And so,
00:50:07
you know, it would have been a waste of
00:50:08
time cuz he he just wouldn't have
00:50:11
responded to that. So, I wanted him off
00:50:13
the bus, but I didn't want him to know I
00:50:14
wanted him off the bus. I wanted him to
00:50:16
make that decision himself for the right
00:50:18
reasons. And the reasons were, as I
00:50:21
outlaid them, man, get off and I'll
00:50:23
respect you if you
00:50:27
That's a lot of um emotional EQ on your
00:50:29
part.
00:50:31
>> Yeah,
00:50:32
>> I guess so. Yeah.
00:50:34
>> Yeah. Um yeah, there's another story on
00:50:36
that same podcast, G Brands from Aaron
00:50:37
Major. Um you teaching him how to do a
00:50:40
tie up. And then and then say saying
00:50:43
them he should look nice cuz his nana's
00:50:44
in the grand stand or something.
00:50:47
>> Oh, I can't remember about the nana
00:50:49
story, but it would have been I
00:50:51
definitely taught him how to tie a tie
00:50:53
and that was club rugby days and
00:50:57
uh started that with you. We wanted the
00:50:59
boys to be
00:51:01
look tidy and respect the club and and
00:51:05
the team they played for. So we had we'd
00:51:09
teach them how to tie their tie and if
00:51:11
they couldn't tie one we'd just take a
00:51:12
bit more time and teach them and finally
00:51:14
they'd get get it and he was the same he
00:51:17
hadn't he couldn't tie his tie I think
00:51:19
it was in the canary team actually NPC
00:51:21
team and took the time to teach him but
00:51:24
>> it's not a hard thing to teach so
00:51:27
>> yeah but it's not yeah it's not really
00:51:29
your job as like a rugby coach but
00:51:30
you're teaching these these boys how to
00:51:32
be men and you're teaching them some
00:51:33
really good life skills.
00:51:34
>> Yeah, I think that is your job. you
00:51:36
reckon?
00:51:36
>> I think look rugby is one part of your
00:51:40
job and you teach them to be
00:51:43
good rugby players, but uh I think your
00:51:50
your influence on the people you touch
00:51:53
as a coach is way more
00:51:56
widespread than just teach them to play
00:51:58
rugby. You know, you have an influence
00:52:00
that can teach them to be better human
00:52:02
beings.
00:52:04
Um, and you know, I take a lot of pride
00:52:06
out of looking at the achievements. A
00:52:08
lot of people I've had a small part to
00:52:11
play with as a coach and seeing how well
00:52:14
they're doing away from rugby. you know,
00:52:16
rug rugby at the end of the day is just
00:52:19
well, it is a living for a lot of people
00:52:21
now, but it's also it's a sport which uh
00:52:25
there's always going to be a winner and
00:52:26
a loser and there's going to be moments
00:52:28
where there's great success, but there's
00:52:31
also going to be downtimes and but
00:52:33
life's forever.
00:52:36
And if you can be a good human being and
00:52:38
treat people well and and understand
00:52:42
yourself better, then I think you're
00:52:44
going to have an influence on other
00:52:46
people and you know society becomes a
00:52:48
better place.
00:52:51
>> Yeah. But it must be nice for you to
00:52:52
hear like these stories being retold on
00:52:54
podcast like 25 years on or whatever it
00:52:56
is like that's a huge impact you've had
00:52:59
on someone's life.
00:53:01
Oh,
00:53:01
>> it's nice to hear you say that. they've
00:53:03
said that and and
00:53:06
you know I don't need to hear it.
00:53:09
>> Um I just need to do it and and I know
00:53:13
that like even now I'm coaching up in in
00:53:16
uh Japan and the men up there we're
00:53:20
still doing still one of the things that
00:53:22
I pride myself on doing is making sure
00:53:24
that we're not just a rugby team. We're
00:53:27
more than that. M
00:53:29
>> and and
00:53:31
you know the best gift you can give
00:53:33
another human being is value them
00:53:37
>> and and value them enough to to help
00:53:40
steer them in the right direction and in
00:53:42
doing so you try and steer yourself
00:53:44
there too.
00:53:45
>> Mhm.
00:53:46
>> You know, we don't always go in the
00:53:47
right direction all the time.
00:53:49
>> But if we try, then we're we're doing
00:53:53
okay.
00:53:53
>> Yeah. Um, one of the players um, in your
00:53:57
team in Japan is um, Aaron Smith.
00:54:00
>> Yeah.
00:54:00
>> Um,
00:54:03
>> yeah. I listened to a podcast last week
00:54:05
that, um, he was on a couple of years
00:54:07
ago and, uh, he talked about you in
00:54:08
great length. Um, there was a couple of
00:54:10
things which I thought was really cool.
00:54:12
Um, when the big scandal happened in
00:54:14
2016, which we don't need to get into it
00:54:16
all because, uh, that's on the internet
00:54:18
if anyone wants to read it. Um he said
00:54:21
something like um after that you called
00:54:24
him like once a week.
00:54:26
>> Yeah. Was that as a as a mate or a boss?
00:54:30
>> I just was another human being and I
00:54:33
knew that he was suffering and I knew
00:54:36
that uh he and Tegan were going through
00:54:38
a really tough time and
00:54:41
uh you know you can't pretend to care
00:54:43
about people. you've actually got to act
00:54:45
in a way that shows them that you do
00:54:47
care about them and
00:54:49
take uh too much of an effort to have to
00:54:52
pick the phone up. I mean, that's a
00:54:54
pretty easy thing to do. So, I wanted to
00:54:56
make sure that he was okay. I knew he
00:54:58
was struggling a lot and um just
00:55:01
checking in to make sure he's I'd do
00:55:02
that with anybody
00:55:04
>> that I knew and cared about.
00:55:07
>> Yeah, cuz I mean it's a reality of life,
00:55:08
isn't it? and [ __ ] up at some point.
00:55:10
But not not not all of us have our
00:55:12
indiscretions, you know, plastered over
00:55:14
the front page for days and days on end.
00:55:16
But why didn't you throw him to the
00:55:18
wolves at the time?
00:55:20
>> Why would you throw him to the walls?
00:55:22
And like he's a human being who's made a
00:55:24
mistake.
00:55:25
>> Uh he didn't do anything that was
00:55:29
uh legally wrong.
00:55:30
>> Yeah. morally you could you could
00:55:33
question mark it certainly but
00:55:36
>> uh
00:55:39
I look at the rugby boys our rugby
00:55:43
family as a family and sometimes you
00:55:47
don't like the behavior but you still
00:55:49
love them you still care about them and
00:55:52
if it was your son what what would you
00:55:55
want to do
00:55:56
>> and so that's how I treated it and uh
00:56:00
the important thing was not what he did.
00:56:02
It was okay. The important thing was how
00:56:05
he dealt with it and how he responded
00:56:09
and and uh how he and his family got
00:56:13
through it. That was what was important.
00:56:16
Um, you know, and to me, my job as his
00:56:22
rugby coach was to support him to get
00:56:24
through that, uh, a with a learning
00:56:27
experience, b with
00:56:30
causing too many scars that were going
00:56:32
to cause more problems in the future.
00:56:36
>> Yeah. I've even heard him publicly,
00:56:38
thank you for helping him become a man.
00:56:40
Is is that um connected to the the
00:56:42
saying that I've heard you use on
00:56:43
numerous occasions, if you can't change
00:56:44
the man, change the man. Uh no the that
00:56:48
saying is about our job as coaches
00:56:53
as leaders of teams is to first of all
00:56:58
um
00:57:01
try and change them. You know like it's
00:57:04
easy just to say no I'm not picking up
00:57:06
because he's got this problem or that
00:57:08
problem or he does this or he does that.
00:57:11
particularly when you've got the talent
00:57:12
that we have in this country. But
00:57:17
if you've got an athlete that's got all
00:57:19
the ingredients and okay, he doesn't
00:57:22
he's selfish.
00:57:24
As opposed to putting the team first,
00:57:26
he's putting himself first, then okay,
00:57:28
let let's look at this and see if we can
00:57:30
change it. Because
00:57:33
sometimes the way we are is the way
00:57:35
we've been dealt the cards we've been
00:57:37
dealt in life and and we're a reflection
00:57:40
on that and we don't know why. We just
00:57:44
see what we get at the end. But the
00:57:47
challenge is he he may not know he's
00:57:49
selfish and uh
00:57:52
you know if you can teach him to be
00:57:54
selfless
00:57:57
um then you have this great talent. So
00:58:00
why would you just chuck it away without
00:58:02
trying to change? And
00:58:04
but if you try and change them and they
00:58:06
don't want to be coached and they don't
00:58:08
want to change, then then you have to
00:58:10
change them.
00:58:11
>> So that's where that comes from.
00:58:13
>> Well, um yeah, Aaron definitely like
00:58:16
repaid your investment in him, didn't
00:58:18
he?
00:58:19
>> Well, he certainly did. He played
00:58:21
wonderful rugby for the blacks, but I I
00:58:23
think uh by and large he's grown up a
00:58:26
bit. Um,
00:58:28
none of us are perfect.
00:58:30
>> Yeah. And we're all work works in
00:58:31
progress. Like there's never Yeah. You
00:58:34
never reach that summit, eh? There's
00:58:35
always another mountain to climb. Should
00:58:37
should all blacks be seen as role
00:58:38
models?
00:58:40
>> Uh, well, it's a tricky one, isn't it?
00:58:42
Because they are, whether they should be
00:58:44
or shouldn't be. Um, and
00:58:50
the challenge is within that is when the
00:58:56
scrutinized like the one thing that is
00:58:58
constant when you're in the All Blacks
00:59:00
is the scrutiny that you're going to
00:59:01
come under. There's always pressure and
00:59:04
and you know, you see many times in the
00:59:07
media ex all black in trouble. There's
00:59:10
not ex you know see ex plumber or ex
00:59:14
blah blah blah. So
00:59:17
that's the tough side of being an all
00:59:19
black. You know, the good side is that
00:59:21
you're if you've been successful, then
00:59:24
there's, you know, there's all black
00:59:25
currency that allows you to be able to
00:59:27
do some things that other people
00:59:29
probably don't get the opportunity to
00:59:31
see or do. However, um because of that,
00:59:36
you are a role model. People look at you
00:59:38
and want you to be perfect, but no one
00:59:41
is perfect. There's, you know, it's
00:59:43
life's just not like that. Um,
00:59:47
and for me it's not about the how many
00:59:51
mistakes you make. It's how you respond
00:59:54
to the mistake.
00:59:56
Um, do you own it? Uh, do you learn from
01:00:00
it? Um, you know, if you're making 10
01:00:03
mistakes and they're all the same one,
01:00:06
you know, then, you know, when we're not
01:00:10
making much progress. Um,
01:00:14
but if you're making mistakes because
01:00:16
you're immature or because of something
01:00:19
in your background or your past that
01:00:22
drives you in that direction, then
01:00:25
our job uh is to try and help you
01:00:29
>> understand why you're making them and
01:00:31
steer you in the right direction to be
01:00:33
able to get the help for it.
01:00:35
>> Yeah. It's like that saying you learn
01:00:37
more from you know your fails than your
01:00:39
wins and your failure is a stepping
01:00:41
stone to success.
01:00:43
>> Well, if you keep stepping up eventually
01:00:45
you'll be successful.
01:00:47
>> You know you can't perseverance can't
01:00:49
cope with
01:00:50
>> with uh failure can't cope with
01:00:53
perseverance. That's the saying I think.
01:00:55
>> Yeah. Um what are the non-negotiable
01:00:59
traits of a great leader?
01:01:03
uh that he puts the organization ahead
01:01:06
of himself. Uh he's able to have the 8%
01:01:10
conversations that most people don't
01:01:12
want to have.
01:01:13
>> 8% conversations.
01:01:15
>> Yeah. Well, 92% of the conversations we
01:01:17
can all have, they're easy.
01:01:19
>> But the eight 8% are the tough ones.
01:01:22
>> Mhm.
01:01:23
>> Uh that you don't want to have, you
01:01:25
know, you have to have them cuz you
01:01:26
care, I don't want to do this. I I need
01:01:28
to talk to him, but we don't.
01:01:30
>> Mhm. Um,
01:01:32
and when you feel like that, that's the
01:01:34
one you have to have. Um, you've got to
01:01:37
have care and and empathy for the people
01:01:41
that work with you and and you're the
01:01:45
climate setter, you know, and when
01:01:48
you're not leading well, it's invariably
01:01:50
the the thermometer is off because
01:01:55
everything's too hot or or it's too
01:01:58
cold.
01:02:00
Um, so you know, check yourself before
01:02:03
you go into meetings. No matter what's
01:02:05
happened before, people don't care
01:02:08
>> when you come into that meeting that
01:02:10
that's who you are. So, and there's been
01:02:12
times, you know, I can remember uh with
01:02:16
the All Blacks that my thermometer got
01:02:18
too hot and I I was short and grumpy and
01:02:23
because I was thinking about the outcome
01:02:25
and it wasn't until I reflected back on
01:02:26
that and and got some home truth from a
01:02:31
couple of people who were honest enough
01:02:33
to tell me that, yeah, well, you're
01:02:35
right. You had to change. So,
01:02:38
um, they're pretty much, you know, and
01:02:41
everyone talks about their culture, but
01:02:43
you got to try and live it the best you
01:02:44
can from the top down, not the bottom
01:02:46
up. Uh, again, you don't always get it
01:02:49
right. Like, try and be on time for
01:02:52
meetings. And if you're not, then own it
01:02:54
and and put your hand up and, you know,
01:02:57
but just don't be late all the time. I I
01:03:01
had a story about that. Did um he
01:03:03
another previous podcast guest uh Kevin
01:03:05
Mameo did he um did he give you a public
01:03:08
dressing down at one point for being
01:03:09
late to a meeting?
01:03:10
>> He did. It was good.
01:03:14
>> Where that seems so unlikely by the way
01:03:16
like he you it's hard to hard to think
01:03:18
of a more lovely man than Kevin Mamu. So
01:03:21
what what happens? You walk into a
01:03:23
>> I was late. I was 2 minutes late uh to a
01:03:26
meeting and he and he just stood up and
01:03:28
said, "Steve, it's not good enough.
01:03:29
You're late." And I said, "Thanksg,
01:03:31
right, I am." And and why I said it was
01:03:35
good was because every ass in the chair
01:03:38
that was in the room, they all visibly
01:03:40
move forward.
01:03:42
And you know, here's a a player telling
01:03:46
the head coach. And here's the head
01:03:49
coach saying, "You're right." So whilst
01:03:51
it wasn't great that I was late, uh what
01:03:54
happened after that was good
01:03:56
>> from a team point of view. And and no
01:03:58
one's
01:04:00
No one's um immune from being asked to
01:04:04
be what they say they be.
01:04:06
>> With with the benefit of hindsight, you
01:04:08
can see that's a good thing. Um at at
01:04:10
the time, um like were you you pissed
01:04:12
off or embarrassed or
01:04:15
>> Oh, you're embarrassed. You wouldn't be
01:04:18
human if you weren't embarrassed. But it
01:04:21
Yeah, I had no right to be pissed off
01:04:23
because I was late. The facts were I was
01:04:24
late.
01:04:26
>> So
01:04:27
you you got If one of the players was
01:04:30
late and and I told them they're late or
01:04:33
someone else in the room told them late,
01:04:35
I'd be agreeing with whoever told him he
01:04:36
was late. It's not acceptable. So,
01:04:39
>> um,
01:04:41
no point being pissed off. Just take it
01:04:44
on the chin and say, "Well, don't be
01:04:45
late next time."
01:04:48
>> Yeah. But in a hierarchy environment,
01:04:50
like he he really he sort of had no
01:04:52
right to
01:04:53
>> Yes, he did. He had every right. And
01:04:55
like there's no hierarchy environment. I
01:04:58
don't believe there is one. I think yes
01:05:00
is like you you ask players to join a
01:05:05
leadership group. So it's a joint
01:05:07
leadership and you have alignment with
01:05:10
all parties across the board
01:05:12
and
01:05:14
you know the players
01:05:17
uh have to drive the game on the field.
01:05:20
So you need them to be help drive it off
01:05:22
it. And and so I don't see it as
01:05:25
hierarchy. I would just see it as okay
01:05:27
well we're all in this together
01:05:30
>> and uh
01:05:31
>> I'm just privileged one who gets to be
01:05:33
called head coach
01:05:35
>> but if I do something that doesn't go
01:05:37
with what we're saying which is team
01:05:39
first and being late is not team first
01:05:41
that's I've been selfish because I've
01:05:44
either done yeah you put something ahead
01:05:48
of the team to not be at that meeting
01:05:52
uh so I deserve a an uppercut and you
01:05:55
know he was good enough to give me one.
01:05:57
Well, at the time, yes, it was
01:05:59
embarrassing, but at the same time, it
01:06:01
was also something I really,
01:06:04
you know, appreciated him having the
01:06:06
strength of character to do.
01:06:08
>> Um,
01:06:09
>> it was great leadership from him.
01:06:10
>> Yeah, 100%. You said something before
01:06:13
and I've never I've never heard it
01:06:14
framed this this way before, but the um
01:06:16
the 92 uh% thing, 88% thing. Um, and I
01:06:21
got to say for me and possibly a lot of
01:06:23
people listening or watching this
01:06:24
podcast, it's one of my toxic traits.
01:06:27
I'm just terrible at having tough
01:06:29
conversations.
01:06:30
>> Um,
01:06:32
>> yeah. Does it get easier and easier?
01:06:34
>> No, never gets easy. And and ironically,
01:06:40
uh, if you spoke to my wife, she'd say
01:06:42
I'm terrible at it with
01:06:45
with her and with the kids.
01:06:50
So I have to work really hard at it in
01:06:54
our family environment like in the the
01:06:56
emotional side of that and I don't know
01:07:00
if it's because of you know we're a
01:07:02
blended family
01:07:04
um whereas I find it an easier thing to
01:07:09
do when there's less emotion around it
01:07:12
>> and in the rugby side of it. So, you
01:07:15
know, we can be good on the right hand
01:07:17
side, but poor on the left hand side, or
01:07:19
we can just be totally good, or we can
01:07:21
be totally poor.
01:07:23
>> Um, but what I do know is, uh,
01:07:29
if you don't have them, there's a
01:07:31
consequence. If you do have them and you
01:07:33
manage them well, then, you know, the
01:07:36
consequences aren't so great.
01:07:40
>> Yeah. Yeah, I suppose it's different in
01:07:42
like um a test rugby environment like
01:07:44
you got to make you got to have these
01:07:45
tough conversations and do it with a
01:07:47
sense of urgency because it's a
01:07:48
selection based thing or whatever, but
01:07:50
>> in a home environment like you can
01:07:52
procrastinate a bit and eventually it'll
01:07:55
if you address it or not, it's going to
01:07:56
work itself out somehow.
01:07:58
>> Yeah. Well, relationships I think are a
01:08:00
lot harder than
01:08:02
>> uh when you don't have them though. Like
01:08:05
they
01:08:07
it drags on and on, doesn't it? And then
01:08:09
eventually there's a big bust up and
01:08:12
>> you either fix it or you don't. And if
01:08:14
you don't fix it then, you know, it's
01:08:17
two people going in different
01:08:18
directions. But um
01:08:22
I'm certainly not an expert on the
01:08:24
relationship side of it. Uh but I'm okay
01:08:28
in the rugby side of it. I can as I said
01:08:30
I think it's because of the emotion and
01:08:32
and and it may be you know your
01:08:34
different
01:08:37
world you live in sometimes within the
01:08:39
one world you live in but
01:08:41
>> I just know if you don't have them then
01:08:43
there's a bigger consequence so
01:08:45
>> I'm working hard at having them.
01:08:48
>> Yeah it's good to hear that you're still
01:08:50
working on it. So I think we all are.
01:08:52
We're all constantly works in progress.
01:08:53
There was um I was reading the um the
01:08:56
Ivan Kerry book and there was a quote in
01:08:58
there and when I when I read this quote
01:08:59
I actually thought of you because I
01:09:00
thought it's a it's almost like a steism
01:09:02
um he he says tough conversations don't
01:09:04
have to be tough conversations but I I
01:09:06
don't know I like the idea of that in
01:09:08
practice but I feel like they they just
01:09:10
are by design.
01:09:12
>> Well they are in our own mind. I think
01:09:15
once you have them, I think they become
01:09:18
actually um invigorating conversations
01:09:21
because they allow you to move
01:09:26
uh either the relationship that you're
01:09:30
have with the person you're having it
01:09:31
with in a better direction. It's an
01:09:34
opportunity to show care.
01:09:37
Uh it's an opportunity to take
01:09:39
responsibility
01:09:40
uh for things. So, and ownership. So I I
01:09:44
understand what he's saying, you know,
01:09:46
but it's
01:09:48
the blocker is, you know, this is going
01:09:50
to be tough. I don't want to do this. Oh
01:09:53
god, I don't want to have to give them
01:09:55
bad news or I don't want to take
01:09:57
ownership of this, you know, cuz it's
01:10:00
embarrassing. Um,
01:10:03
but once you've done it, it's, you know,
01:10:05
you'll know yourself. It feels so much
01:10:07
better once it's done and it's it's like
01:10:11
I guess you've got an abscess and you
01:10:12
lance it and all the buses out and you
01:10:14
can get on with it again, you know, and
01:10:16
>> move forward.
01:10:17
>> Yeah. Are there any that stand out as
01:10:20
some of like the the toughest
01:10:22
conversations you've had? like over the
01:10:24
weekend um knowing this podcast was
01:10:26
coming up I watched that Amazon Prime um
01:10:28
series that the All Blackstone and so
01:10:31
there was some things in there like um
01:10:33
Ryan Croy Julian See
01:10:36
maybe an Andy Allison there as well like
01:10:38
they these these are really tough
01:10:40
conversations like you you you know
01:10:42
you're almost like crushing someone's
01:10:43
dream in a way aren't you? Well, when
01:10:46
you're dropping someone, you are.
01:10:48
>> And I think um or you you know, you're
01:10:51
you're taking away their dream
01:10:53
>> and
01:10:55
they are they're really tough
01:10:57
conversations because
01:11:00
it's giving someone news they don't want
01:11:02
to hear.
01:11:04
>> But I I guess the thing that helps me
01:11:08
have those is, you know, was this is
01:11:11
what we believe is right for the team.
01:11:13
So the team's more important than the
01:11:15
individual even though you care and love
01:11:17
the individual.
01:11:18
You love the team more than so you have
01:11:22
them and you try and do it in the best
01:11:24
way you can.
01:11:26
>> Yeah. That the Amazon program I I really
01:11:29
hated it because I it wasn't really us
01:11:33
and it doesn't matter who you are.
01:11:35
You've got cameras there. It makes
01:11:36
people different. And yeah, I thought it
01:11:39
was one of the commercial things we
01:11:42
didn't need to do.
01:11:44
>> Yeah, that's that's interesting. I
01:11:46
suppose as soon as there's cameras
01:11:47
there, it does there there is a
01:11:48
performative aspect to it.
01:11:50
>> Well, you just can't be your normal
01:11:51
self.
01:11:52
>> Um I don't think it's very very
01:11:55
difficult to be anyway. You know, you're
01:11:56
always aware of
01:11:59
we we didn't show them a lot anyway. M
01:12:04
>> we
01:12:06
okay you can come and do this and that's
01:12:08
gone and then
01:12:10
>> now we'll get on with it.
01:12:12
>> I I I found it quite interesting that
01:12:14
cuz I I had sort of no clue really what
01:12:16
what your job was. I thought like your
01:12:17
job would maybe be a manager and you
01:12:19
know you've got coaches and you get like
01:12:21
direct executive reports or something
01:12:22
but you're you're you're on the
01:12:24
>> you're on the field every day like
01:12:26
tossing the ball around you know calling
01:12:27
all the shots. So the head coach is
01:12:29
still definitely like a a coaching role
01:12:31
even though you've got all these coaches
01:12:32
beneath you.
01:12:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're more the
01:12:34
helicopter, you know, like you've got
01:12:36
it's not just the coaches, it's all your
01:12:38
staff and
01:12:39
>> you try and let them do their thing, but
01:12:42
>> you know, your job is to challenge them
01:12:44
a little bit and
01:12:46
>> or or
01:12:48
I remember talking to Gilly, who's best
01:12:52
SMC coach I've ever seen, and we're
01:12:55
having problems with Dan Carter uh and
01:12:58
his leg. And I' said to Dan, you know,
01:13:01
what's your best playing weight? and he
01:13:03
saw I'm 93 and you know he was doing the
01:13:05
jockey head so there was no fat at 93
01:13:07
and so yeah what weight were you when
01:13:10
you weren't having trouble with your
01:13:12
with your leg and he was 92
01:13:16
he might have been 95 and then 92 and I
01:13:18
said oh okay good and then I went and
01:13:21
saw Gillian I said you know at 92 he
01:13:23
didn't have any leg problems at 95
01:13:26
he is and biomechanically DC is not the
01:13:29
perfect individual he's
01:13:32
different. He's like a great raceh
01:13:35
horse. You It doesn't slow them down
01:13:36
just cuz their legs aren't
01:13:39
in alignment. But I learned from the
01:13:42
raceh horsing game that, you know,
01:13:44
eventually you pay a price if you're
01:13:47
carrying too much weight on them. So I
01:13:48
said, "Why don't why don't we try and
01:13:50
get some weight off and see what
01:13:52
happens?" And Gilly was great. He said,
01:13:54
"Yeah, okay. Let's try it." And we
01:13:56
didn't. He never had any leg problems.
01:13:57
He come into that, you know, under a
01:13:59
cloud in the 215 into the World Cup and
01:14:02
just grew and grew in confidence and
01:14:04
played like a, you know, best player in
01:14:06
the world. So,
01:14:08
so that that's part of your job is uh as
01:14:11
a overall head, you know, your job is
01:14:15
not to be the Sinc coach. Your job is to
01:14:18
just check, okay, what he looks like
01:14:21
he's fat. What's going on there? Oh,
01:14:23
blah blah blah. Okay, I'll know where he
01:14:26
is when we got him doing some extra. So,
01:14:28
you're you're just helping them.
01:14:31
Sorry. You know, deliver on what they
01:14:34
want to deliver on.
01:14:36
>> Yeah. Um, yeah. Speaking of Gilly, uh,
01:14:38
Dr. Nick Gill, I had him on the podcast
01:14:40
and he he told a story about, um, early
01:14:42
on in the his all black time, um, he was
01:14:45
doing like a a pull-up or something at a
01:14:47
bar at a um, at one of the gyms and
01:14:50
downtrailed him. Um,
01:14:53
were you a victim of any pranks or were
01:14:56
were you immune? Were you I thought
01:14:57
you'd be immune to that.
01:14:58
>> No,
01:14:59
>> really.
01:15:01
>> No, they love they love uh seeing you
01:15:06
and I think it's right like they they
01:15:08
love seeing,
01:15:11
you know, the people that they're
01:15:13
working with and in Gilly's case, you
01:15:15
know, he's the SNC coach, me, I'm the
01:15:18
head coach. So, they love seeing
01:15:19
normalization.
01:15:21
and and having a laugh at your expense
01:15:23
and and I think that's that's good for
01:15:25
the team.
01:15:27
>> Um you may not like it at the time, but
01:15:30
it's good for the team.
01:15:31
>> Any any standouts?
01:15:33
>> Oh, there's heaps.
01:15:36
Heaps. We used to have a uh a Tuesday
01:15:39
night um club knot. We call it a club
01:15:42
knot where you wore your club jersey and
01:15:45
and we'd sell raffles and
01:15:48
um Dne and and Brady Retellic were the
01:15:52
raffle
01:15:54
uh guys. So they'd go and get prizes
01:15:57
either see Shandandy or Gilbert and get
01:15:59
some money to go and get the prizes or
01:16:01
they'd get some donated through
01:16:03
sponsors. Um, so the raffles would be on
01:16:06
and then you'd have a club captain who'
01:16:07
do give out club notices and and then
01:16:11
there would be a pistake somewhere
01:16:12
amongst that. So invariably I'd be one
01:16:15
coping it.
01:16:16
>> What about um in terms of impressions of
01:16:19
you? Uh anyone
01:16:20
>> H.
01:16:22
>> Could anyone do it? Okay.
01:16:24
>> Uh yeah, there was a few that weren't
01:16:25
too bad. Yeah, a few.
01:16:29
>> What was it? Um, yeah. What's the What's
01:16:32
the um team bus like? I'm guessing
01:16:34
there's two sort of team buses. There's
01:16:35
team bus on on the weekend.
01:16:37
>> Yeah.
01:16:37
>> And team bus on a on a on a weekday.
01:16:40
There you are. You're a bloke in your
01:16:41
50s in this bus with a with a bunch of
01:16:44
like, you know, fit, energetic young
01:16:46
guys. Um, is that a crazy environment?
01:16:50
>> Uh, the bus has a different
01:16:53
flow to it depending on what part of the
01:16:55
week we're in. So
01:16:58
trainings early in the week, you know,
01:17:00
there's plenty of chatter. Um,
01:17:04
everyone has their own seats um through
01:17:08
through time served. Coaches always sit
01:17:11
at the front or management are always up
01:17:13
the front. You guys are usually in the
01:17:15
seats up the front next behind the last
01:17:19
management person. And then the guys
01:17:22
that have been there the longest,
01:17:23
there's usually four, three or four, I
01:17:25
can't remember how many we had in the
01:17:26
back seat, would be in the back seat.
01:17:27
Captains never allowed in the back seat.
01:17:29
>> And there'd be a lot of talking and
01:17:32
stuff and it was great. You know, music,
01:17:34
there's a music committee, so someone
01:17:36
had to play music.
01:17:38
Uh then as we get into nearer the end of
01:17:42
the week
01:17:44
I like captain's run still it'd be quiet
01:17:47
on the way to the captain's run but then
01:17:49
afterwards it'd be chat and banter and a
01:17:51
bit of laughter and then on game day it
01:17:54
was
01:17:56
everyone had their headphones on and be
01:17:58
no noise, no speaking, no nothing. And
01:18:01
then afterwards, depending on how we
01:18:04
went,
01:18:05
>> uh, we would there'd be plenty of noise.
01:18:09
>> And we we had a ritual where we played a
01:18:12
song. It had to be the last song and it
01:18:14
had to finish. Was all bit of pressure
01:18:17
on the music uh guy. He had to have it
01:18:20
finishing as the bus rolled up to the
01:18:22
hotel where we were staying to get off.
01:18:25
And it was called the Gambler. During my
01:18:27
time, I think they got a new one under
01:18:29
Fosian. I don't I don't know what
01:18:30
they're doing with Razer, but um I'd
01:18:33
been coached by a guy called Gordy
01:18:35
Hunter.
01:18:36
>> M
01:18:37
>> who
01:18:39
showed me the how humor was a really
01:18:42
important part of of helping a rugby
01:18:46
team diffuse pressure.
01:18:49
And he taken us on a tour with New
01:18:50
Zealand Combined Services
01:18:53
um throughout the UK. It was about a
01:18:55
12-week trip. And uh
01:18:59
he had asked us all to bring cassettes
01:19:01
back in those days. He's we' all had to
01:19:03
bring a cassette of our favorite song
01:19:06
and then he gave to the music guy and
01:19:08
anyway he wanted his one played first
01:19:10
and it was Stairway to Heaven.
01:19:13
>> 8 minutes or something.
01:19:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. And it was more than that
01:19:17
because what happened was
01:19:20
um
01:19:22
played it, he took it out and he always
01:19:25
got his cassette back cuz he sat right
01:19:27
behind the bus driver and he made me as
01:19:29
c I was captain of the team and he made
01:19:30
me sit beside him. So I was allowed up
01:19:33
the back and
01:19:36
anyway second I don't know whose
01:19:39
cassette went in the second time but as
01:19:41
soon as it started playing he tapped the
01:19:42
bus driver on the shoulder said take
01:19:44
that put this back in. So for 12 weeks
01:19:46
we played one cassette, Stairway to Hip,
01:19:48
one song,
01:19:51
and it drove everyone nuts. But then in
01:19:53
the end, it united us. And that's where
01:19:56
I got the idea from. So I thought, okay,
01:19:58
well, let's play this one song. We only
01:20:00
play it if we win. We don't play it if
01:20:02
we it's that was the rule. So if we if
01:20:05
we lost, we never we never got to play
01:20:06
it. Never got to hear it.
01:20:08
>> And it was like a subconscious thing.
01:20:11
And you know, it was great. and everyone
01:20:14
would rip into it and sing and you know
01:20:16
initially again it was the same
01:20:18
resistance as we had with Gordy or what
01:20:21
this is a [ __ ] song it's not a modern
01:20:23
day song but then they got okay well
01:20:26
we're playing this again and then the
01:20:28
challenge went into the poor old music
01:20:30
man he had to if he didn't get it right
01:20:32
the boys would and the bus driver would
01:20:34
muck around with him had a great bus
01:20:36
driver in New Zealand so no it was good
01:20:39
so it was little things like that
01:20:40
happened
01:20:41
>> yeah there must be conversations that
01:20:44
you hear that like what the hell is this
01:20:46
going?
01:20:47
>> Uh, no. Not too you're far enough away
01:20:51
from that so you don't hear them.
01:20:54
>> Yeah. In the um Amazon Prime
01:20:56
documentary, the bus driver says
01:20:58
something like there's some songs where
01:20:59
Steve's like, "Skip on to the next one."
01:21:01
>> Yeah. Know next. Yeah.
01:21:03
>> What genre?
01:21:04
>> I I'm pretty open to most genre, but I'm
01:21:06
not a big rapper. I don't like the
01:21:08
rapping stuff, so I used to try and put
01:21:11
a bit of pressure on them to change
01:21:12
that. Then to the credit of the music
01:21:15
guys that would be a we challenge to see
01:21:17
if they could cope with me putting them
01:21:18
under pressure and then the other boys
01:21:20
would be a listen to the go get it back
01:21:23
on don't put it on
01:21:25
>> and we'd have a bit of fun with them.
01:21:27
>> That's good. Um yeah I've heard you talk
01:21:29
about um rules versus expectations and
01:21:32
you're not a big fan of rules. Um yeah
01:21:35
what were your non-negotiable rules? uh
01:21:38
with the teams one um
01:21:42
number one was team first individual
01:21:44
second uh alignment so I wanted to have
01:21:47
alignment within the coaching group
01:21:50
wanted to have alignment then with the
01:21:52
leadership group and then I wanted to
01:21:54
have alignment with management
01:21:56
leadership group and then alignment with
01:21:59
the team so but and and that the senior
01:22:02
guys the leaders would drive it you know
01:22:06
was their team they had to drive it So
01:22:07
they were the non-negotiables.
01:22:10
>> Everything else was up for negotiation.
01:22:13
>> Um,
01:22:15
a player like Richie McCoy
01:22:17
as head coach, how do how do you coach
01:22:18
someone like that? Someone that's that's
01:22:20
got that um competitive level the same
01:22:23
as yours, if not higher. Um, yeah, just
01:22:25
personal expectations that are like
01:22:27
level 10.
01:22:29
>> Well, he was really coachable cuz he
01:22:31
wanted to be better all the time. So,
01:22:33
and he was smart enough to know, well,
01:22:35
he can't do it by himself. So he would
01:22:37
look to people within the organization
01:22:40
to to help him get better. Um what he
01:22:43
wanted, okay, identify for me what you
01:22:47
want me to be better at and then give me
01:22:50
some examples of how I can do that and
01:22:52
then he'd go away and do it. Cuz when he
01:22:54
started like he was he was probably
01:22:58
not the most talented rugby player. um
01:23:01
definitely the most uh
01:23:04
best work ethic and definitely mentally
01:23:08
the toughest.
01:23:11
So he combined those two things with
01:23:14
okay now if I if I can improve my skill
01:23:17
level and skills you know skill is is
01:23:21
something you can learn if you're
01:23:23
persistent enough with it
01:23:25
>> and he was and he became very very
01:23:28
proficient at a whole range of rugby
01:23:31
skills because he had the work ethic and
01:23:34
the and the mental fortitude to to keep
01:23:36
turning up every day to try and be
01:23:38
better at it. And in the end he was the
01:23:40
greatest rugby player of all time I
01:23:42
think um because he he had so many
01:23:45
skills uh and he had that mental
01:23:47
fortitude
01:23:48
>> and the work ethic.
01:23:50
>> He he seems from everything I've read
01:23:52
and heard about him um just so like
01:23:55
incredibly focused and dialed in on the
01:23:57
job at hand. Did did you have many
01:23:59
conversations with him that weren't
01:24:01
rugby or all black related?
01:24:03
>> Oh, we had lots of conversations. you
01:24:04
like you didn't have to have too many
01:24:07
rugby conversations with him. I remember
01:24:09
having one particular rugby conversation
01:24:11
in 15. We were in London
01:24:15
and uh he always knew I I wanted to talk
01:24:19
to him if I said, "Oh, let's go and have
01:24:20
a cup of tea."
01:24:22
So, we went and had a cup of tea and I
01:24:25
said, "You know, I reckon there's only
01:24:26
one thing that's going to stop us
01:24:27
winning the World Cup." And he said,
01:24:30
"What's that?" And I said, "You."
01:24:33
And he he sat back in his chair and he
01:24:36
said, "What do you mean? You think I'm
01:24:37
not playing well enough?" I said, "I
01:24:38
think you're playing like a champion,
01:24:40
mate." I said, "But you want it so much.
01:24:43
You're not trusting anybody else in the
01:24:45
group and you're trying to do
01:24:47
everybody's job." I said, "Just do yours
01:24:51
and trust the boys will do theirs. Trust
01:24:54
the coaching group will do theirs. Trust
01:24:56
manager to do his job and we'll be
01:24:57
sweet."
01:24:59
And he did. He just walked, you know, he
01:25:02
must have gone away and thought about it
01:25:04
and but it was because he wanted it so
01:25:06
much because he knew he was going to
01:25:08
retire. We both knew he was retiring at
01:25:10
the, you know, before the World Cup. We
01:25:12
knew he was going to retire after the
01:25:14
World Cup. So, and as you said, he's
01:25:17
very competitive and he he he
01:25:20
cares so much about the team and about
01:25:22
the game. Um, and you can see that and
01:25:26
you know, why he's still involved in it
01:25:28
now. So
01:25:29
>> could could you see yourself in many of
01:25:31
the players
01:25:33
like you see Richie Mccor and did it
01:25:35
remind you of a like a younger version
01:25:37
of yourself or Rich in 2015 did it
01:25:40
remind you of that you know year in
01:25:41
Canterbury where you were being
01:25:43
controlling or
01:25:46
you don't see yourself you just see
01:25:49
I know what you're feeling something cuz
01:25:50
I've been there
01:25:52
>> and I want it too but
01:25:54
>> I know if we both like that that's not
01:25:56
going to work for us. So we have to we
01:25:59
just have to trust other people.
01:26:00
>> Mhm.
01:26:02
>> Um you know like he
01:26:05
should always never good enough to be
01:26:07
even considered to be see parts of me
01:26:09
and him but
01:26:10
>> he he
01:26:12
I know what you mean like he's very
01:26:14
competitive and and when we allow our
01:26:17
competitive nature to get in front of
01:26:19
the process then we're in trouble.
01:26:22
>> It doesn't matter who you are. So it's
01:26:23
just a matter of bringing learning and
01:26:26
understanding that this is all about
01:26:28
process
01:26:29
>> because what happens is we get
01:26:31
distracted when it's about the outcome.
01:26:34
>> Mhm.
01:26:35
>> And we start thinking about the past sh
01:26:37
you know 07 or we think about the
01:26:39
future. What if we don't what if we
01:26:41
don't win this? What are the public
01:26:42
going to be like when we get home?
01:26:45
And really what's really important is
01:26:47
what's happening now. What do we have to
01:26:49
do right now to do what we need to do to
01:26:52
get where we want to go? And and
01:26:56
the the problem is not thinking about
01:26:58
the past or thinking about the future.
01:26:59
It's how long we stay there.
01:27:01
>> That's the big issue.
01:27:03
>> And and recognizing you're not there. So
01:27:06
the job is to try and see it yourself.
01:27:08
And the job of your your teammates and
01:27:11
and your coaching group or other people
01:27:14
in your, you know, is is to recognize
01:27:16
that you're there and help you get out.
01:27:18
M
01:27:19
>> cuz the good people can get out really
01:27:21
quickly.
01:27:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. Is is that a Gilbert and Noa
01:27:24
thing? I I I think I read about this in
01:27:26
the book um Legacy by James Kerr. Uh the
01:27:28
redhead, bluehead thing.
01:27:30
>> Yeah. Well, that's part of it, right?
01:27:32
Yeah. Yeah. And like Gilbert was
01:27:33
brilliant with the group and understated
01:27:36
how valuable he was and
01:27:39
he did so many things for that team that
01:27:41
Yeah.
01:27:43
[Music]
01:27:44
I've heard you say um Sunonny Bill
01:27:46
Williams is the best athlete um you've
01:27:48
you've ever coached. How like how do you
01:27:50
um how do you say that say that so
01:27:52
definitively? Like what separates
01:27:53
Sunonny Bill Williams from a like a
01:27:56
Barrett, a Smith, insert name here?
01:27:59
>> You know what I mean?
01:28:00
>> Just an athleticism of of him like uh as
01:28:05
an athlete he'd be the best athlete up
01:28:07
coast. I'm not saying he's the most
01:28:09
talented or or anything like that, but
01:28:11
he as an athlete, he's look at him. He's
01:28:16
>> he's a supreme uh looking athlete. He's
01:28:21
built beautifully. Uh he's powerful.
01:28:26
Uh he's strong. Um he's big.
01:28:30
So all the things if you were looking
01:28:32
for if if he was a raceh horse, for
01:28:34
example, you'd say, "Well, I want to buy
01:28:36
that horse.
01:28:38
you know, and and the athletes are no
01:28:41
different. Um, you look at all those
01:28:44
great sprinters, they've all got
01:28:47
big asses, big powerful athletes.
01:28:50
And,
01:28:52
you know, he he is just probably in my
01:28:56
mind the best athlete.
01:28:58
Like Dan Carter is a great player,
01:29:01
but biomechanically
01:29:02
had flaws. Whereas you look at um
01:29:06
Sunny like he had no flaws
01:29:08
biomechanically perfect. Uh he ended up
01:29:11
having some knee problems in the end but
01:29:13
he's great athlete. Another guy I coach
01:29:16
is um who was close to him was uh Alfie
01:29:19
Thomas from Wales. He was a amazing
01:29:22
athlete too.
01:29:24
[Music]
01:29:25
>> Yeah. Well to time stamp this
01:29:27
conversation at the time we're recording
01:29:28
this. say like a week or two out from
01:29:30
Sunny Bill having a fight with um Paul
01:29:32
Gallon. Um so he's still in insane shape
01:29:36
and still working really really hard.
01:29:38
>> Um
01:29:40
>> yeah, I know you're not a fan huge fan
01:29:42
of it, but the Amazon Prime show, which
01:29:43
I've referenced a couple of times,
01:29:44
there's a really nice moment in there
01:29:46
where uh following an awful moment where
01:29:48
he gets that red card. Um can you
01:29:50
remember what you said to him after
01:29:52
that?
01:29:54
>> Oh, I I'm not sure.
01:29:55
>> Like no use sulking about it, son.
01:29:58
Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was
01:30:01
hurting cuz he knew he'd let the team
01:30:03
down and we we lost the test because
01:30:06
right in the last moment, but we didn't
01:30:09
lose the test cuz he got sent off. But
01:30:11
when you get sent off, you take that
01:30:12
responsibility and you and and if you
01:30:14
lose, you take it even heavier. So,
01:30:17
there was no point in talking about it.
01:30:19
We just I needed him to come back and be
01:30:20
a, you know, back in a good place
01:30:23
mentally so he could help the rest of
01:30:24
the team
01:30:25
>> cope with it. So,
01:30:27
Yeah.
01:30:29
>> When do when do you think you were um at
01:30:31
your peak as a leader? Like as a player,
01:30:33
you can probably look back and in
01:30:35
hindsight on reflection over your career
01:30:36
and say, "Oh, this was the year where I
01:30:38
I played my best regardless of the win
01:30:40
loss record." Can can you do that as a
01:30:42
coach?
01:30:43
>> I think you can look back and say you
01:30:45
coached better
01:30:47
this day or that day than you did this
01:30:51
day or this year. And
01:30:54
>> um
01:30:56
you know there's there's
01:30:59
periods within periods that you coach
01:31:01
well and you don't coach well and you
01:31:03
know so
01:31:05
um you strive to be better every day but
01:31:08
you're not always able to do that.
01:31:11
>> Um such a polarizing job and you had it
01:31:14
for such a long time. Were um any
01:31:17
members of the public ever like rude or
01:31:18
impolite to your face?
01:31:21
Uh yeah, there was when we were we lost
01:31:23
in ' 07. There was a few people
01:31:27
uh had things to say, but I don't didn't
01:31:30
used to worry me too much.
01:31:33
>> Yeah, cuz I've had um Hardy John Hart on
01:31:35
the podcast and uh after was it the 99
01:31:39
World Cup?
01:31:40
>> Yeah.
01:31:40
>> Yeah. 99 World Cup. Yeah. He he the
01:31:42
backlash from that uh caused him to go
01:31:44
into like a deep depression to the point
01:31:46
where he was in dinner with his with his
01:31:48
first wife and was miserable over there
01:31:51
then came home and there's a period of
01:31:52
time where he you could barely leave the
01:31:54
house and cross the street you know he
01:31:55
was that
01:31:57
>> I feel like we've grown grown up as a
01:31:59
nation e we've moved
01:32:02
>> um look 07 was tough time and
01:32:08
for a number of reasons and like my
01:32:10
other passed away.
01:32:13
Um, and
01:32:16
that sort of put a reality to losing the
01:32:19
World Cup. And was it something we
01:32:22
wanted to do? No, we didn't set out to
01:32:24
do it. And did we make some mistakes?
01:32:27
Yeah, of course we did. Cuz we we we
01:32:28
didn't get it right. Uh, did we own
01:32:31
that? Yeah, we did. Um, but at the end
01:32:34
of the day, World Cups are hard to win
01:32:38
>> and uh,
01:32:41
you know, not everyone's done that. Like
01:32:44
Ireland's have been supposedly the the
01:32:46
number one team in the last
01:32:49
we while and they still can't get past
01:32:51
the quarterfinals.
01:32:52
Um, so they're not easy and
01:32:57
you've got to try and learn from them.
01:33:00
But people
01:33:02
get like they get because they care too.
01:33:06
M
01:33:06
>> and if you can
01:33:09
dec uh if you can put that in the
01:33:12
cupboard and go, "Right, I understand
01:33:13
how that person's feeling
01:33:16
cuz I care." Then you can sort of brush
01:33:19
it off.
01:33:22
>> And and if they walk away and they
01:33:25
actually have any sense of normality
01:33:28
about them, they'll actually be
01:33:29
embarrassed when they stop and think
01:33:31
about what they've just said or done.
01:33:33
and
01:33:34
uh and if they don't then they're not
01:33:36
worth worrying about anyway.
01:33:38
>> So uh the key thing is you've got to be
01:33:42
able to compartmentize it to the point
01:33:44
where okay if I look in the mirror have
01:33:47
I done everything I possibly could have
01:33:50
done? Yes.
01:33:54
Have I done it all right? No. Okay. What
01:33:57
have I got to be able to do better if I
01:33:58
get another chance?
01:34:01
And that's all you can do. And then I
01:34:04
wouldn't want the New Zealand public to
01:34:06
change their passion and their want for
01:34:10
all black team. That's what makes
01:34:13
rugby so important to this country is
01:34:16
but it makes our rugby players and our
01:34:18
coaching and our rugby union have to
01:34:21
look at ourselves and well what do we
01:34:23
want?
01:34:24
>> You know we've got this outside group
01:34:25
who aren't even involved in it wants
01:34:27
this. So it pushes you to want even
01:34:30
more. So
01:34:32
>> you can't have all the pats on the back
01:34:35
and not get the odd punch in the nose
01:34:37
>> and then you know cry poor me poor me.
01:34:41
And some of it like I know what Hardy
01:34:43
got was ridiculous. And it was
01:34:45
particularly down here.
01:34:47
>> You had a race meat down here.
01:34:48
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:34:49
And contabrians are very very oneeyed
01:34:52
and they're called that bit for a reason
01:34:54
because you know they don't see too much
01:34:56
past red and black
01:34:57
>> and that's okay. Nothing wrong with it
01:34:59
but um sometimes it gets out of kilter a
01:35:04
little bit
01:35:05
>> and there is a problem with that. today
01:35:08
and I think
01:35:10
um in in Card's case I think it you know
01:35:13
it was we were learning
01:35:18
but at the same time as learning we were
01:35:21
hurting and we didn't do those
01:35:23
particular things very well and as I
01:35:25
said some of the people that behave like
01:35:27
that will look back on it and
01:35:29
>> think you know they'll be embarrassed
01:35:31
>> give themselves an uppercut
01:35:33
>> good idea
01:35:35
>> 2007 um World Cup was would that be your
01:35:38
biggest professional adversity?
01:35:41
>> Oh no [ __ ] I we
01:35:45
uh lost 10 tests in a row I think it was
01:35:47
when I was coaching Wales and
01:35:50
>> that was tough
01:35:51
>> because I was in an environment where I
01:35:54
didn't have the support of all my
01:35:56
friends and
01:35:58
>> and uh a group or a nation that knew me
01:36:01
or you know I'd come out of Canterbury
01:36:03
and coaching crusaders and Canterbury
01:36:05
and we'd been very very successful. So,
01:36:07
I hadn't tasted
01:36:09
uh defeat like that. And uh
01:36:13
>> but what we did have and I'd gone over
01:36:15
there to help Graeme and Graeme um
01:36:19
pulled the pin
01:36:21
after we lost to Ireland in the first
01:36:23
Six Nations game and then I got handed
01:36:26
uh the job and a I probably wasn't ready
01:36:29
for it, but you're not going to say no
01:36:31
when under the circumstances that you
01:36:32
got given it. And then I was we had a
01:36:35
group of young men who
01:36:38
weren't fit enough,
01:36:41
weren't ready for the task that they
01:36:44
were being asked to do, but they were
01:36:45
the best we had.
01:36:48
>> So it was a matter of protecting them
01:36:50
against a a nation who have Welsh have
01:36:54
similar high expectations.
01:36:57
unrealistic I might add but same high
01:37:01
expectations as New Zealand public do
01:37:04
>> and uh that was tough you know so
01:37:10
I learned there though that um
01:37:14
you know be inclusive
01:37:16
but what's our plan okay this is where
01:37:19
we're going
01:37:21
we know if we do this we're going to get
01:37:22
better if we keep persevering we're
01:37:24
going to be successful so we ended up
01:37:28
becoming uh we had a we lost I think it
01:37:34
was either 10 or 11 I can't remember and
01:37:36
Dave Moffett was the CEO and he come to
01:37:39
see me and he couldn't he couldn't
01:37:41
really say it but he wanted to tell me
01:37:43
if we didn't win against the next
01:37:46
opponent where we're going to I was
01:37:47
going to get the chop.
01:37:50
So I had to say it for him and he and he
01:37:53
goes, "Yeah, well you you need to win."
01:37:55
And I said, "Okay, well, you go away and
01:37:57
sort out who the next coach is going to
01:37:59
be, and I'm just going to carry on
01:38:00
coaching
01:38:01
>> because I need to spend the time
01:38:02
coaching. These kids need
01:38:04
>> their help." And uh so we just dug in
01:38:07
and we lucky enough we beat Scotland.
01:38:09
And so kept the job. Then we went to the
01:38:12
World Cup and had a got knocked out in
01:38:14
the quarterfinal by uh was it England?
01:38:17
Yeah, England. We outscored them three
01:38:18
tries to two actually in Australia.
01:38:22
came back, had a pretty good uh Six
01:38:24
Nations. Then I came home and I'd always
01:38:28
I two older daughters. I promised them
01:38:29
I'd come home. I would only go for x
01:38:31
amount of time to Wales and um so I
01:38:35
promised them I'd come home and and um I
01:38:39
was lucky enough to walk straight into
01:38:40
the black job. However,
01:38:44
the thing that pleased me most of all
01:38:45
was that next year that 2004 year, the
01:38:50
Welsh team went on and won the the Six
01:38:52
Nations. So, we'd turn them around
01:38:55
enough to be able to be successful. So
01:38:58
yeah, that's one of the proudest
01:38:59
coaching
01:39:01
things that when I look back on my
01:39:03
career, yeah, winning the World Cups was
01:39:05
great and a lot of things along the way
01:39:08
with the all blacks, but I was also very
01:39:10
proud of how we dug in and took on the
01:39:13
adversity of that Welsh experience and
01:39:16
grew from it.
01:39:18
>> Well, thanks for sharing that. I suppose
01:39:20
to be a great coach, you also need that
01:39:22
adversity as well. I'm think of like the
01:39:24
NBA, completely different sport, but if
01:39:25
you look at the um the top point scorer
01:39:27
list of all time, like there's names on
01:39:28
there that you'd expect like Kobe,
01:39:30
LeBron, MJ, they're also on the the list
01:39:33
of the guys that have missed the most
01:39:34
shots as well.
01:39:35
>> Yeah.
01:39:36
>> Yeah. Part and parcel. Well, you don't
01:39:38
get better if you don't, you know,
01:39:40
you've got to put your hand up and and
01:39:42
you've
01:39:45
adversity is a wonderful teacher
01:39:47
>> and and there won't be a coach out there
01:39:49
that hasn't had at some point in their
01:39:52
career a period where they've had to
01:39:55
look at themselves and challenge
01:39:58
themselves to deal with adversity.
01:40:03
>> Still not nice when you're going through
01:40:04
it.
01:40:05
>> Well, it's not
01:40:06
>> sucks. Yeah, of course it does. And and
01:40:08
it's why you don't want to go back
01:40:10
there.
01:40:11
>> Yeah. Um, one more coaching question
01:40:14
then. Um, I'd love to move on to some
01:40:16
personal reflections. How are you doing?
01:40:17
You right?
01:40:18
>> Yeah. Good.
01:40:19
>> Yeah. You enjoying yourself or would you
01:40:21
Is there a million places you'd rather
01:40:23
be?
01:40:24
>> Oh, there's probably a million places
01:40:25
I'd rather be, Dom, but
01:40:27
>> appreciate the honesty.
01:40:29
>> We're here and we're having a chat, so
01:40:31
you know, why not enjoy it?
01:40:32
>> Well, yeah, I'm I'm loving it. I love
01:40:34
that attitude as well. Um yeah, what did
01:40:37
it feel like when you're in that job for
01:40:39
so many so many years and then uh 2019
01:40:42
suddenly it's you know you wake up and
01:40:43
you don't have this pressure or
01:40:44
responsibility anymore. Is it is it a
01:40:47
weird feeling? Is it a a a feeling of
01:40:49
like relief? What's it like?
01:40:52
>> It's not relief. Um
01:40:56
it's hard to describe really because it
01:40:59
becomes part of who you are like the
01:41:02
team. You care about them so much. you
01:41:04
care about the people in the team so
01:41:06
much. So you want them to continue to be
01:41:09
successful and and you want you know
01:41:13
uh
01:41:14
I guess you then become quite judgmental
01:41:17
about things
01:41:21
with regard to how are they being
01:41:23
supported and and so forth and not
01:41:27
judgmental but you're looking you know
01:41:29
you're watching and you're observing
01:41:31
become very much an observer of what's
01:41:34
going on and And you know, I I was
01:41:39
really pleased that Fozy took over
01:41:41
because I think he deserved that
01:41:43
opportunity. And then co happened and a
01:41:47
lot of other things have happened that
01:41:49
probably didn't need to happen.
01:41:51
>> And if you read his book, you'll hear
01:41:52
all about them. But
01:41:56
I knew that the team would be in good
01:41:58
hands and that uh a lot of the stuff
01:42:03
staff was still there and and the
01:42:06
players would be looked after. So
01:42:09
uh you know I I chose to then step right
01:42:12
back out of it. I didn't I've only think
01:42:13
I've only watched
01:42:16
uh live um
01:42:19
the one all black test that was the
01:42:21
opening France test in the French uh
01:42:25
world cup all the rest I watched on
01:42:27
tally
01:42:29
um because I think I felt like it's time
01:42:32
to get back out and leave it to whoever
01:42:34
is doing it you know and it's the same
01:42:36
now you still feel like you know you're
01:42:39
watching and observing but it's not your
01:42:41
time you've had your time at someone
01:42:43
else's, let them get on with it and and
01:42:46
support them the best you can.
01:42:50
>> Yeah, that's interesting. Um, a lot of
01:42:52
politicians say the same sort of thing
01:42:53
once you've been prime minister. They
01:42:55
like retreat like well into the
01:42:56
background. They just don't want to
01:42:58
don't want to get their fingers in the
01:42:59
pie anymore.
01:43:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you get a lot of
01:43:01
people ringing up, you know, the media
01:43:03
ring up and want you to comment and
01:43:06
and sometimes you do and and then
01:43:09
sometimes, you know, I I 99% of the time
01:43:12
I just go, "No, and I'm not going to do
01:43:15
that." And sometimes I do and
01:43:18
uh you know, but I I I'm more of the
01:43:22
opinion that look, it's their time. Let
01:43:24
them get on with it and
01:43:26
>> let them do what they want to do and
01:43:27
they they've the right to do it. they've
01:43:29
been elected to do the job and
01:43:31
>> trust them to get on with it.
01:43:33
>> Yeah. Um Fozy, who who you've mentioned.
01:43:35
Yeah. Yeah. You coached together for a
01:43:37
long time. You're in Japan together. Is
01:43:39
he one of your best mates?
01:43:41
>> Uh yeah, he is. He's he's uh
01:43:44
you've got best mates that you went to
01:43:46
school with and then you've got people
01:43:48
that become your best mates because
01:43:49
you've come in contact with him along
01:43:51
the way. So, he's a good man. I trust
01:43:53
him heck of a lot and we have a good
01:43:55
relationship and we enjoy each other's
01:43:57
company and and and we like every
01:44:01
relationship you have moments where you
01:44:03
have disagreements too but you know
01:44:05
those disagreements are put on the table
01:44:07
and because they're it's a tight
01:44:10
relationship you can have those 8%
01:44:12
conversations that you need to have and
01:44:14
and you grow because of them. M
01:44:16
>> so and I enjoy coaching with him and
01:44:18
>> as I said he's a good human being.
01:44:21
>> When when he was all black coach and
01:44:23
there was the stuff going on about him
01:44:24
being replaced which is no doubt a
01:44:25
couple of um um meaty chapters in his
01:44:28
book. Um yeah how how do you support um
01:44:31
him as a mate? Is it a text or a phone
01:44:34
call?
01:44:35
>> I'd just ring in and see how he's going
01:44:37
and how he's feeling and make sure he's
01:44:39
okay. And
01:44:41
um yeah, I got a bit vocal about how the
01:44:43
rugby union treated him one point and
01:44:46
cuz I thought it was poor.
01:44:47
>> You know, you if you elect someone then
01:44:49
get behind whether you've made a poor
01:44:52
decision or a good decision, you're you
01:44:54
you've put him there. So he didn't he
01:44:57
didn't get put there by himself. They
01:44:59
put him there.
01:45:01
>> And and the relationship between your
01:45:03
CEO and your head coach has got to be
01:45:05
really one-off support. And I was very
01:45:07
very fortunate to have Steve Chu as the
01:45:11
CEO and we had a great relationship you
01:45:13
know coming back to Canterbury and
01:45:17
Crusaders and then into the black. So
01:45:20
and I don't I don't think that
01:45:21
relationship was there for those two and
01:45:23
and that's that was disappointing.
01:45:27
>> Um you you mentioned your mom in passing
01:45:31
before. Uh, so your mom Loris, she died
01:45:34
in 2008 and um I believe your dad moved
01:45:36
in with you for a time a time then. Uh,
01:45:39
>> yeah. Yeah. He lived with us once mom
01:45:42
passed away. He come and lived with us
01:45:43
for the rest of his days and it was
01:45:45
great.
01:45:47
>> Yeah. You lost your they died in quite
01:45:50
quick succession really. Your mom in
01:45:51
2008, dad of a stroke at the age of 78
01:45:54
and 2012.
01:45:55
>> Yeah. So um so your mom the year before
01:45:59
she died that was the the 2007 World Cup
01:46:02
which we talked about before she never
01:46:04
got to see the success that followed. Uh
01:46:06
your dad 2012 so he got to see 2011 but
01:46:09
not the um incredible success after
01:46:11
that. Um, is that with with those
01:46:14
massive like career highs that followed,
01:46:17
is that something that sort of stung a
01:46:19
little bit in the back of your mind that
01:46:20
they missed that? They missed seeing you
01:46:22
grow to the
01:46:24
>> peak, Steve. Um, it didn't sting, you
01:46:27
know.
01:46:28
>> Is it uh something that you would have
01:46:31
liked them to have gone through that
01:46:35
time with with us? It would have been
01:46:37
good, but
01:46:39
life's not fair. So there's no point
01:46:41
being a sook about it. You just got to
01:46:43
accept it. And and if there is an
01:46:46
afterlife, then they would have gone
01:46:47
through it with us anyway. If there's
01:46:48
not, then uh they did everything they
01:46:52
could to set me up to be able to do what
01:46:56
we did anyway. So, um, yeah, like it's
01:47:00
more
01:47:02
I I I would rather they were here so I
01:47:05
could have the conversation than to have
01:47:08
them see what I've done, you know, like
01:47:11
just as mates. Like, dad and I were
01:47:13
incredibly close and
01:47:15
>> as I said, he lived with us for quite
01:47:16
some time after mom passed. So, uh, he
01:47:21
became even closer. So, yeah, you do
01:47:23
miss you miss that. Um
01:47:26
>> but
01:47:29
can't change it. So
01:47:30
>> yeah, it's it's it's life, isn't it?
01:47:33
>> It's um it's a certainty for all of us.
01:47:35
So were you were you living with your
01:47:36
dad down here in Crush during the
01:47:38
earthquakes?
01:47:38
>> Yeah.
01:47:39
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. How Yeah. How
01:47:41
was that with the earthquakes? Uh well,
01:47:44
the house got broken
01:47:47
>> and um
01:47:49
I just uh basically we just finished uh
01:47:53
doing it all up but got broken so we had
01:47:56
to sort of move out of it. We got it got
01:47:58
condemned so moved out of it.
01:48:00
>> Mhm.
01:48:01
>> Tough.
01:48:02
>> Um so your wife Tash so you've been
01:48:05
married since um
01:48:07
>> 14
01:48:08
2014.
01:48:09
>> Yeah.
01:48:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:48:12
Did you not have enough going on at that
01:48:13
time to organize a wedding and
01:48:16
>> uh
01:48:17
>> right in between World Cups?
01:48:18
>> Yeah. No, it was a good time. It was
01:48:21
good uh
01:48:24
uh a good um
01:48:27
distraction,
01:48:28
>> was it? Yeah.
01:48:30
>> Yeah.
01:48:30
>> What was your um what was your proposal
01:48:32
like? Are you a
01:48:33
>> Oh, very romantic.
01:48:36
>> Would I would expect nothing less hot
01:48:38
air balloon?
01:48:38
>> No.
01:48:39
>> Hot air balloon over the port hills.
01:48:40
>> No, I don't like heights. So it wouldn't
01:48:41
have been that I actually proposed to
01:48:43
her in Sydney in the gardens in Sydney
01:48:46
actually. So went down on one knee and
01:48:49
>> I probably asked her a couple of times
01:48:50
before that and she thought I was
01:48:51
joking. So
01:48:53
>> she didn't take me seriously. But
01:48:56
>> how how did you guys meet? Uh we've
01:48:58
known each other for years and then um
01:49:01
it was really a relationship that her
01:49:04
father had passed away and then mom had
01:49:08
passed away and then uh
01:49:11
I know just through that relationship
01:49:15
grew out of talking about respect for
01:49:18
parents and
01:49:22
>> is this number number three for you?
01:49:25
>> Yeah, we're number one really. I've only
01:49:26
got one wife. Yeah.
01:49:28
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I mentioned before
01:49:31
the podcast started like you and I um
01:49:34
and our respective families were in um
01:49:36
dinner in Fiji like many years ago. I
01:49:38
think probably before you were married.
01:49:39
>> Um and it was fascinating sort of you
01:49:41
know seeing you briefly how you were
01:49:42
running your family with you fairly
01:49:44
young kids at the time. You were running
01:49:45
them almost like a like a micro team in
01:49:47
a way. It was quite inspiring to see.
01:49:50
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, Tash has done a
01:49:52
wonderful job helping blend a group
01:49:54
together and you know, it's difficult.
01:49:57
Uh it was effectively three families, so
01:50:01
two two and two and and but now we're
01:50:05
a group that are pretty solid and you
01:50:08
know the two oldest girls Whitney and
01:50:09
Jess are
01:50:12
uh you know their own uh right very
01:50:14
successful and and the other the four
01:50:17
youngies are all starting to to grow and
01:50:20
become successful in their right too. So
01:50:21
it's wonderful.
01:50:23
>> Yeah. Whitney one of the um the Black
01:50:25
Ferns uh coaches. Yeah. What? Um, yeah.
01:50:28
Do you do you text her? Do you have any
01:50:30
sort of input in that?
01:50:31
>> Uh, well, no, not really. I mean it
01:50:34
should I wanted to give her a space to
01:50:36
do her own thing and we talk about rugby
01:50:40
uh you know when we do chat and she's
01:50:43
she's uh you know she come from a
01:50:46
teaching background and she's strong
01:50:50
uh about her thoughts and beliefs and
01:50:54
>> um which is good you know she's got her
01:50:57
own uh rugby now she's pretty sharp So,
01:51:03
>> well, not from um not from bad stock to
01:51:06
be fair.
01:51:07
>> Yeah. Well, I think she she too got a
01:51:09
lot from dad and uh you know, more so
01:51:13
from him than me, I would suggest.
01:51:14
>> Mhm.
01:51:16
>> Um and your wife Tash, like you I feel
01:51:19
like you sort of touched upon this
01:51:20
before, but you what sort of role has
01:51:21
she played in your success?
01:51:23
Oh, she's came into my life at a really
01:51:26
great time. Um, as I took over the All
01:51:30
Blacks and she's a former sports woman
01:51:33
herself. She's a very successful net
01:51:35
baller and uh she's very straight
01:51:38
shooter. So, she's not frightened to
01:51:40
tell me what she thinks I should be
01:51:43
doing. and and she's strong with that
01:51:45
and and I love that because she's got
01:51:48
good wise counsel and um good
01:51:51
understanding of sport in itself and
01:51:54
>> Mhm.
01:51:54
>> but more importantly what's right and
01:51:56
wrong about life. So she's been
01:51:58
wonderful and and as I said as a as a
01:52:01
blended family she's you know been
01:52:04
wonderful mother so great stepmother as
01:52:07
well.
01:52:08
Yeah, I suppose she's got to run the
01:52:10
household because it's it's not just the
01:52:13
11, 12, 13 games, whatever a year we see
01:52:16
on TV, is it? Like there's a lot that a
01:52:18
lot that goes on. What is it exactly
01:52:20
like with All Black Coach? Like how how
01:52:22
many nights a year are you away from
01:52:23
home?
01:52:24
>> Uh I think one year we're about 290 days
01:52:29
away from So
01:52:31
>> but
01:52:33
most years would be 140 to
01:52:37
190 probably. So, you know, at least
01:52:39
half the year or more.
01:52:41
>> Um,
01:52:43
so there's a lot of time where she she's
01:52:45
left dealing with with stuff and it's
01:52:50
difficult enough, you know, when it's
01:52:51
not a blended family. So, when it's a
01:52:52
blended family, you're dealing with
01:52:55
other people as well and and uh there's
01:52:58
multiple people to be looked after. So
01:53:01
during the earthquakes,
01:53:04
uh, you know, Crochet was all all cones
01:53:06
and we had kids getting dropped off all
01:53:08
over the city to schools and she was
01:53:11
having to do that. But, you know, she
01:53:13
was on the money and we were still
01:53:15
learning to be a couple as well. And uh
01:53:19
at times, you know, she probably sold
01:53:23
shouldered, you know, massive amount of
01:53:26
responsibility and and uh more than she
01:53:30
probably deserved to have to take. But
01:53:32
um it was just, as I said before, the
01:53:35
sacrifice is that group of people, not
01:53:37
the not the person doing the job. Like
01:53:40
it's not a sacrifice to coach the All
01:53:41
Blacks. It's a sacrifice not to have
01:53:43
your husband or your father at home. I
01:53:46
think they're the people that sacrifice.
01:53:48
A and and whenever um like you were
01:53:52
under the spotlight or you know coping
01:53:54
criticism. Yeah. What like what sort of
01:53:55
impact does that have on her?
01:53:57
>> Oh, they feel that and but you know
01:54:01
they're also as I said because she's
01:54:03
been through the sporting arena herself.
01:54:06
She understands
01:54:08
a lot about it and uh her advice is she
01:54:12
probably one of the first people I'd
01:54:13
look to when I'm frustrated or I'm
01:54:16
feeling something I can talk to her
01:54:18
about it and she'll have good advice for
01:54:20
me. So, she's been great.
01:54:21
>> Yeah. I've um I've got a photo here. I
01:54:25
found this online. It's um it's a it's a
01:54:28
beautiful photo. I think this is from um
01:54:31
2019. When where did where did you
01:54:33
finish in the World Cup? Was it third?
01:54:34
You got the third place medal. Yeah. So,
01:54:36
there's um
01:54:37
>> there's a really nice moment where
01:54:39
>> um I think you get you go over to the
01:54:41
grand stand, there's security guards. Um
01:54:43
she breaches all health and safety
01:54:45
protocol and
01:54:46
>> jumps over the bar.
01:54:46
>> Jump over the barrier and then it's um
01:54:48
you guys on the field together and
01:54:50
>> um yeah, it looks like a couple in love.
01:54:54
>> Oh, well, yeah, I do love her and
01:54:56
>> I'm pretty sure she loves me, too. So,
01:54:59
can't um
01:55:02
>> I I certainly have no uh right to be uh
01:55:08
saying that I've done all this by
01:55:09
myself. I mean, she's certainly been a
01:55:11
big part of it.
01:55:12
>> Yeah.
01:55:13
So, I feel like um you're at that
01:55:15
reflective stage of life now. What are
01:55:18
you still working on as a man?
01:55:20
>> Uh still trying to be a better husband
01:55:22
and better father and you know, they're
01:55:24
the two key jobs I've got now. and be a
01:55:27
better coach. Like
01:55:29
>> just be a better human being. You don't
01:55:31
get it right every day of the week. But
01:55:33
uh if you can
01:55:35
keep asking yourself to be better, I
01:55:37
suppose you've got a chance, you know.
01:55:39
Certainly not perfect. That's for sure.
01:55:41
>> Mhm. Well, yeah. Well, nobody is.
01:55:44
>> No.
01:55:44
>> No. Um we're all we're all flawed. And
01:55:48
anyone that anyone that isn't has lived
01:55:50
um an incredibly boring life, right?
01:55:52
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I look, I think we're
01:55:54
all flawed by the things that happen to
01:55:56
us when we got no uh control over those
01:56:00
things when we're young children and
01:56:03
we're
01:56:05
we're um either scarred or
01:56:09
or created by those experiences and and
01:56:12
if you you know talk to the
01:56:13
psychologists, they'll say it all
01:56:15
happens at a young age. So, at a young
01:56:18
age, you don't have too much control.
01:56:20
It's but it's how you choose to
01:56:24
>> get yourself through that. And you know,
01:56:26
if you become aware of what your flaws
01:56:28
are, then you can slowly but surely
01:56:33
fix them
01:56:34
>> or
01:56:35
>> or do try and do better
01:56:36
>> or control them.
01:56:37
>> Yeah.
01:56:37
>> You know, so they're not flaws and
01:56:39
they're not such a handicap to who you
01:56:41
are in your everyday life. And you know,
01:56:44
some people unfortunately
01:56:46
don't get to do that and it's a tough
01:56:48
old life for them. M.
01:56:51
What are your biggest flaws, would you
01:56:52
say?
01:56:54
>> Uh,
01:56:55
selfish.
01:56:57
>> Um,
01:57:00
yeah, probably selfish.
01:57:04
Uh, competitive,
01:57:07
which makes me selfish.
01:57:10
Yeah, look, I don't
01:57:14
It's easy to rattle off a few things,
01:57:17
but
01:57:21
Some people see and say, "Well, this,
01:57:23
this, and this." And other people say
01:57:25
that, that, and that. And
01:57:27
>> it's not really what the biggest ones
01:57:29
are. It's just what what it is that that
01:57:32
can jump out and bite you in the bum.
01:57:34
>> Mhm.
01:57:34
>> Uh when you don't want it to.
01:57:35
>> Yeah.
01:57:36
>> And And
01:57:38
you know, if I think about myself,
01:57:41
uh you know, there's three or four
01:57:44
things. my pride, you know, can get in
01:57:48
the way. And
01:57:50
um,
01:57:52
you know, I think about, do I like being
01:57:55
embarrassed? No. You know, when I was
01:57:58
younger, a lot younger, you know, like I
01:58:00
couldn't laugh at myself because I was
01:58:01
too, you know, I'd be ashamed or
01:58:04
embarrassed by, you know, people
01:58:06
laughing at me or laughing at something
01:58:07
that I should have been laughing at,
01:58:10
too.
01:58:11
So, you know, there's lots of things
01:58:13
that and they come and go, too. Like,
01:58:16
you know, you get one under control and
01:58:18
then something else will jump up. So,
01:58:21
but by and large, I'm pretty happy with
01:58:23
the human being I am and and uh I've got
01:58:27
the love of a wonderful woman and and my
01:58:31
children and and you know, I've got some
01:58:33
great friends, so can't ask for too much
01:58:35
more than that.
01:58:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. You seem like, you know,
01:58:38
you're at peace. Are are you someone
01:58:40
that you'd want to have a beer with?
01:58:43
>> Uh, some days.
01:58:47
>> That's a real honest answer. I
01:58:48
appreciate that. I feel exactly the same
01:58:50
way.
01:58:51
>> Some days it' be certainly wouldn't want
01:58:53
to have a beer with me cuz I might be a
01:58:55
we bit grumpy. But look, I've just I
01:58:59
understand I'm just turned 66, you know.
01:59:02
So every day is a good day that you wake
01:59:04
up and and
01:59:07
>> you can be as reflective as you like,
01:59:09
but really life's about living now. Uh
01:59:15
I'm not there's no point me judging
01:59:18
myself or allowing other people to judge
01:59:21
me
01:59:22
at 66. I've just got to enjoy every day
01:59:25
that I'm alive. I don't know how long
01:59:27
I'm going to still be here for. And
01:59:29
look, I hope it's as long as possible,
01:59:31
but if I happen to go tomorrow, then
01:59:34
I'll go knowing that, you know, it's
01:59:36
been a pretty good life. And and uh I've
01:59:40
been fortunate to to have been involved
01:59:44
in some wonderful things.
01:59:48
>> [ __ ] that's a beautiful answer.
01:59:50
>> Your your grandkids, how do they hope
01:59:53
how do you hope they see you as a man?
01:59:55
or don't have any yet. So, uh,
01:59:57
>> come on. Come on. There's a blended
02:00:00
family. Who's going to be first?
02:00:01
>> No, we don't want to put them under
02:00:03
pressure.
02:00:05
But look, I don't know. and and and
02:00:11
I think the
02:00:13
again
02:00:16
if we are fortunate enough to to have
02:00:20
grandchildren and and uh I just want
02:00:24
them to know that granddad's someone
02:00:26
they can go to and and get an ice cream
02:00:29
or get a
02:00:32
a piece of chocolate or all the things
02:00:34
that mom and dad don't give them because
02:00:37
they're not allowed them.
02:00:38
>> You know,
02:00:39
>> granddads and and and grandmothers are
02:00:41
there to spoil grandkids.
02:00:44
>> Jeez, I I could see you being a granddad
02:00:46
and I reckon you'd be a fantastic one as
02:00:47
well. Great for shoulder rides.
02:00:50
>> Uh yeah, well be great for the ice
02:00:51
creams and the chocolates cuz I like
02:00:53
them myself.
02:00:54
>> Yeah.
02:00:55
>> Um when was the when was the last time
02:00:57
you cried? Are you quite in touch with
02:00:59
your emotions?
02:01:00
>> Oh, yeah. I get quite emotional when we
02:01:03
start talking about family.
02:01:04
>> Yeah.
02:01:05
>> Yeah. I'm surprised I haven't cried when
02:01:07
you give me that picture of Tash
02:01:08
actually, but
02:01:09
>> Oh, it's a beautiful photo actually.
02:01:11
That just the whole moment like um Yeah.
02:01:14
her jumping over the barrier and and you
02:01:17
both look so happy and at peace and
02:01:19
calm.
02:01:20
>> Yeah.
02:01:20
>> Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you'd prefer a
02:01:22
different color metal around your neck,
02:01:24
but the fact that you you seem so happy
02:01:25
and you've got your chest puffed out
02:01:27
with a a bronze medal.
02:01:28
>> I don't know if that's my chest. I think
02:01:29
that's
02:01:32
uh
02:01:32
>> What are you most afraid of?
02:01:35
Um, what am I most afraid of?
02:01:41
I'm not sure I'm afraid of anything
02:01:43
really.
02:01:45
That's probably a pretty
02:01:49
cynical answer because I will be.
02:01:51
There'll be things that
02:01:55
I'm not a big worrier. Like, I've always
02:01:57
thought that worrying is a waste of time
02:02:00
because it hasn't happened.
02:02:04
then okay prepare for it to happen and
02:02:06
have a plan for it or if it has happened
02:02:09
what are you doing about fixing it?
02:02:11
>> Um
02:02:13
but um as I said before life's been you
02:02:18
know I've been very fortunate. There's
02:02:20
not too much to be afraid of because
02:02:23
I've lived a very
02:02:25
been treated to a wonderful time while
02:02:28
I've been here and uh I guess you fear
02:02:32
that the people you love
02:02:35
get hurt or or you know D got uh breast
02:02:40
cancer we ago and that was tough and you
02:02:43
fear that
02:02:46
but you know things are going really
02:02:48
well there. So keep your fingers crossed
02:02:50
that that carries on. But that's really
02:02:52
the only thing I'm fearful of. I'm not
02:02:56
I'm not scared of um
02:02:59
you know
02:03:01
life ending or or not being you know
02:03:05
being judged by other people.
02:03:08
That's never been something that's
02:03:09
bothered me. But
02:03:11
>> I I think you Yeah. If I was got down
02:03:15
deep and
02:03:17
and uh honest about it really is the
02:03:20
only fear I have is what you know may
02:03:23
happen to your kids or your wife or the
02:03:26
people you love.
02:03:27
>> Mhm.
02:03:29
>> Yeah. I I'm not scared of dying, but um
02:03:32
I think it's it's not not something I
02:03:35
want to do, but it's the FOMO aspect, I
02:03:36
guess. You know, it's what you'd miss
02:03:38
out on.
02:03:40
>> Yeah. Yeah. If you think if you dwell on
02:03:41
it too long and you think about it,
02:03:42
that's what it would be for me.
02:03:44
>> Yeah. I guess like
02:03:48
>> you have no control over being born and
02:03:50
you have no control over when you're
02:03:51
going to go. So, but you do in between.
02:03:55
>> And that's why I said, you know, I'm 66
02:03:57
now. I'm trying to work really hard on
02:04:00
not allowing other people to affect me
02:04:02
with through their judgment or,
02:04:05
you know, be tied down to how they think
02:04:08
I've got to do this because they think I
02:04:10
should be doing it. If I'm doing what
02:04:12
needs to be done because it's right for
02:04:15
me and
02:04:16
and and the people that I love, then,
02:04:20
you know, I'm living pretty good life.
02:04:22
And uh if I happen to to drop dead, I'm
02:04:26
going to be
02:04:28
I I won't know I'm dead.
02:04:30
>> And And but I know that I've I've uh
02:04:35
I've I've I've had a good go, you know.
02:04:38
>> Yeah, you sure have. What do you think?
02:04:41
Is there an afterlife?
02:04:43
>> Well, look, I don't know. But
02:04:45
>> no, no, no, no. Well, no one knows.
02:04:47
>> But if there is, then we'll we'll we'll
02:04:51
enjoy that for what it is, you know, and
02:04:54
>> that's a whole new experience, isn't it?
02:04:56
Um, do I
02:04:59
am I a spiritual person? Uh,
02:05:04
not overly, but certainly not underly
02:05:07
either. I think I'm sort of
02:05:09
middle of the road.
02:05:10
>> Mhm.
02:05:11
>> Um, yeah, but
02:05:15
it' be a hell of a way to go if there is
02:05:16
an afterlife. Bloody good party.
02:05:20
>> Bonus. Um,
02:05:23
is there three words that you'd like um,
02:05:25
family and friends to use to describe
02:05:27
you at your funeral?
02:05:29
>> Have you Have you heard this before? Do
02:05:30
you may have even come up with this. I
02:05:31
had had this guy on the podcast called
02:05:33
Dooall Allen, multisport legend, uh,
02:05:35
podium, finished on the coast to coast
02:05:37
nine or 10 times, then became America's
02:05:39
Cup Cyclaw.
02:05:41
>> He he does some like 24 48 hour
02:05:43
adventure races. And one of his
02:05:44
teammates was um, Richie Mccau.
02:05:46
>> Yeah. And he said during one of the
02:05:48
nighttime challenges to keep everyone
02:05:50
sort of motivated, Richie went around
02:05:52
the team and got everyone to, you know,
02:05:55
to say three words they'd like people to
02:05:56
use at their funeral. And he couldn't
02:05:58
remember Richie's three words, but one
02:05:59
of them was integrity. And he he thought
02:06:01
it was an interesting word because even
02:06:02
though I'd only known Richie a couple of
02:06:04
days, uh, that is definitely one of the
02:06:06
words he would have used for him.
02:06:08
>> Yeah.
02:06:08
>> Is this is this one of your coaching
02:06:10
things? Did you give this to Richie or
02:06:12
>> No, no, no. Uh we often talked about uh
02:06:17
you know your story at what story would
02:06:19
you want them to
02:06:21
>> tell about you when you have your
02:06:23
grandchildren on your knee and or you
02:06:27
know your son or daughter has their
02:06:29
child on their knee and they're talking
02:06:30
about you. We talk about that a bit. But
02:06:34
uh no, the three things I know like does
02:06:39
it matter what they say?
02:06:42
Like at the end of the day, you're going
02:06:44
to have some people say he's a bastard.
02:06:48
Some people going to say, "Oh, you know,
02:06:49
he's brilliant." Um
02:06:58
the people to ask that question I reckon
02:07:00
are the people that are closest to you.
02:07:01
You know they'll they'll be able to say
02:07:03
it and you you can come up with all the
02:07:06
you like it to be integrity and you'd
02:07:08
like it to be this and you'd like it to
02:07:09
be that. But the reality is you know
02:07:12
people at funerals is you never hear
02:07:16
anyone say anything bad anyway. But
02:07:19
yeah, there's plenty of people that have
02:07:21
passed away that people have spoken
02:07:24
about badly before they passed away.
02:07:26
>> 100%.
02:07:27
>> So, I'm not too I'm, as I said before,
02:07:30
I'm at the stage of my life where, you
02:07:32
know, people can say what they like.
02:07:34
>> Not going to affect me anymore.
02:07:36
>> Um, and I'm not going to be allow other
02:07:40
people to
02:07:42
to judge me.
02:07:45
Um, the people that I love, they can
02:07:47
judge me
02:07:48
>> and and and I'll judge myself.
02:07:52
>> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself?
02:07:55
>> Uh,
02:07:59
am I proud of myself?
02:08:02
I'm,
02:08:03
you know, if you
02:08:08
look back to
02:08:12
a little boy that was born in Mosgill,
02:08:16
uh,
02:08:20
and to where I've come now, yeah, I'm
02:08:22
proud of myself. I'm proud of
02:08:26
uh being able to say I work with some
02:08:29
wonderful people uh who have given us a
02:08:35
lot of success in in sport.
02:08:38
Uh I'm proud to say I've got some
02:08:41
wonderful friends. Um and through that
02:08:43
we've had some success in horse racing
02:08:46
and and various other things. Uh, I'm
02:08:50
proud of the fact that I've grown as a
02:08:54
human being and way better husband now
02:08:56
than I've ever been. Um, yeah. So,
02:09:02
yeah. Well, I would be I think I can sit
02:09:06
here and say I'm proud of myself. Yeah.
02:09:07
But
02:09:10
>> I'm also realist enough to know that,
02:09:12
you know, I could have if I had life
02:09:15
again, would there be things I'd change?
02:09:17
Yeah. 100% and and all the way all along
02:09:22
the journey you change them and but
02:09:25
hindsight's a wonderful thing. You don't
02:09:27
get to um have another go,
02:09:31
>> you know, and if you do, I won't be
02:09:33
called Steve Hansen. I'll be called,
02:09:36
you know, Jenny May or who knows, you
02:09:39
know, like and and you don't get the
02:09:41
opportunity to
02:09:44
to bring the wisdom with you. Um,
02:09:50
this has been great, Steve. This has
02:09:52
been really good. Um, yeah, you've been
02:09:54
like a a dream guest uh for mine on the
02:09:57
on the podcast when I randomly reached
02:10:00
out to your son with a DM and um we made
02:10:03
this happen. I was really surprised and
02:10:04
it's been everything I hoped it would be
02:10:06
and more. Um, can I call you sir?
02:10:12
>> How's it how's it been for you? Do you
02:10:14
you okay?
02:10:16
Yeah, I mean it's it's a hell of a life
02:10:18
and there's a lot to reflect on and I
02:10:19
just wonder how you feel reflecting on
02:10:21
it for this length of time.
02:10:23
>> Well, I was probably haven't spoken
02:10:25
about myself like this uh for this
02:10:29
amount of length and time and you know
02:10:32
it's enjoyable um doing podcasts. I've
02:10:36
been lucky enough to do a couple of
02:10:38
them. Uh, and you get an opportunity to
02:10:41
actually express who you are and
02:10:45
uh, and have the opportunity to thank
02:10:48
the people that you've worked with.
02:10:50
Um, but at the end of the day, you know,
02:10:52
like we're we're just all people and you
02:10:56
know, some of us are lucky enough to be
02:10:59
successful at some things and you know,
02:11:01
whether it's academia or whether it's
02:11:03
sporting proess or or whatever it may
02:11:06
be. So, doesn't make us any better or
02:11:08
any worse than anyone else. It just
02:11:10
means it's who we are. and um through
02:11:14
our success uh you know our families
02:11:16
benefited and and you know I'm grateful
02:11:19
for that.
02:11:21
>> Well, I'm so incredibly grateful and
02:11:23
appreciative for your time today. It's
02:11:24
been amazing, mate. And thank you so
02:11:26
much.
02:11:27
>> Yeah, thanks Norman. I've enjoyed it,
02:11:28
too. So, and I enjoyed the coffee. So,
02:11:33
and you didn't even have to pay for it.
02:11:34
>> There he goes. Cheers, Steve.
02:11:37
>> Good, man. Thank you.
