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I'm Adam Grant Wharton Professor I'm
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here with Betty Lou who's a Bloomberg
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anchor you may know her from Betty in
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the loop also a penelon and she's the
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author of the new book work smarts
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giving advice from CEOs on what it
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really takes to succeed in your career
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and get ahead Betty welcome hi thank you
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Adam great to great to be here I'm just
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thrilled to have a chance to reverse our
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roles and put you in the hot seat today
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vice versa I know I I can't believe I am
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in the hot seat so uh so be nice to me
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Adam I'll do my best so why are you here
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what motivated you to write this book
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you know it
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was for a lot of people during the uh
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during the last few uh few years there
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have been I've had several people when
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I've been at um conferences when I've
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been at events I've people come up to me
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young people mostly you know people from
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college who've said you know Betty
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you're so successful please give me some
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advice about what I can do with my
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career and I got enough of those
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questions that I started to think to
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myself there must be this there is this
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great need and I'm sure you see it all
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the time Adam of young people who want
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to get career advice they want some
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Direction but what was funny was that
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while they were asking me these
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questions I kept saying to myself gee I
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have the same questions I want to know
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what to do with my career I don't feel
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all that successful you know I still
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want to know how these very basic
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questions how to make your boss happy
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how to ask for a raise um you know how
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how to how to stand out how to shine and
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so I thought you know if I I still have
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these questions in the middle of my
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career then other people must have those
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same questions so who do I ask then and
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so then I began to think well the best
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people to ask are the people who are at
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the top or at the very top of their
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careers and those would be the CEOs that
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I talk to every day on our program on
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Bloomberg so all of that kind of gel
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together and then it came into uh into a
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proposal with my with my agent and we
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and we put it together and tend it to
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the publisher but in any case so so
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that's kind of the Genesis of of why I
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thought hey you know let me let me write
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this book I'm sure others must have the
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same questions
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yeah I certainly do and and you got to
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talk to many interesting people in the
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business world what were the most
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surprising insights that you got well
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first of all I was very surprised at the
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number of people who said yes to the
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interview I thought you know some people
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might might not want to reveal you know
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all the dirty secrets on how they got
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ahead um but but the the second thing
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was was how um Frank people were about
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their struggles you know um Jamie
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Diamond the the CEO of JP Morgan the
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chairman of CEO was really um open about
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his you know his essentially fight with
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Sandy W his mentor at City group and it
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got to the point where Sandy eventually
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fired him and that was a huge
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controversy during the time when it was
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happening and I was I guess enough years
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have passed that that Jamie felt like he
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could talk about it but he was really
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very open about um you know about that
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moment in his life and he said look he
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went home he told his daughters I got
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fired and he said for the first time it
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was really strange to go from 90 m per
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hour hour to zero um and that was the
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same thing you know with other CEOs
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about the mistakes they made um Susan
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line at AOL you know she said I made the
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huge mistake that I thought just because
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it was a great idea it's a great
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business and that and that's failed
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spectacularly so I was just surprised at
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how people were just very honest about
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and genuine about about their
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failures and is that easy to do because
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they're now back on the top or have they
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been this way all along you know I think
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it's easier because you're back on the
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top it's obviously a lot harder if
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you're still in that position but I also
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felt that they were being that that that
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they would have mentioned it anyway or
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that or that it's a part of their fabric
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of of who they are you know and felt
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like I felt like many of them many of
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them did feel that the mistakes that
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they've made were just as important as
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the successes that you have and in fact
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maybe probably even more important you
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know I'm sure many who are watching this
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or you know you and me like we've all
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learn from our mistakes and in fact you
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know there's that saying right that you
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can't feel happiness without some
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sadness so it's almost like you can't
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feel that success if you don't have
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those failures too so how do you
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actually think about then taking that
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into sort of everyday life right is is
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the lesson to fail more often is it to
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try to figure out okay reduce the number
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of failures yeah so how do you how do
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you make those actually productive or or
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learning opportunities based on what you
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learned from the the folks you spoke
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with well a lot of it is attitude right
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I mean you know the problem that that
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the the the issue that people have is
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that you know people fail all the time I
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mean you know I can even point to this
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book project and and the number of the
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number of book proposals I've had out
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there outweighs the number of books that
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I've actually written by you know 10
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fold so you know for every success
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there's about 10 a dozen failures behind
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that um so how so it's a great question
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how do you you know how do you how do
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you take that then into your everyday
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life is you know what I found it's
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really all about
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much of is it about attitude you know
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how do you bounce back it's almost like
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how you bounce back is more important
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than than the failure itself and so if
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you bounce back if you if you have that
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positive attitude which Adam I know you
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you are a perennial Optimist as well if
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you have that kind of attitude um it it
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can mean such a difference to the path
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of your career versus you know versus
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being taken down by it and wallowing
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that in that mistake so I know it sounds
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kind of um panish or or whatever but uh
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but there's just evidence time and time
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again um you know there was a there was
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a one piece of research I read in this
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book that that I read for this book um
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and it had to do with this uh this
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author of the luck factor and he did
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this whole I don't know if you know
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about this experiment but he basically
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to long story short he tried to find out
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why some people lucky and why are some
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people unlucky and he did this
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experiment where he put two PE people in
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a coffee shop um and he rigged one
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person to be a millionaire you know one
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person was a quote unquote millionaire
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and he put f a 5 pound he bu in Britain
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so he put a 5B note right out the right
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outside the coffee shop and he had one
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person who was considered himself lucky
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go through the exact same experience as
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a person who thought of herself as
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unlucky so basically that person who was
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lucky found the 5B note went into the
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coffee shop bought a cup of coffee sat
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next to the millionaire struck up a
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conversation and they had a great the
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beginnings of a great relationship the
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person who was unlucky walked by the 5B
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note just like unq went into the coffee
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shop bought her coffee sat next to the
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millionaire and did not say a word to
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the millionaire and left the coffee shop
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and said you know and didn't do anything
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and so when you look at those two
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instances who who's lucky and who's
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unlucky and who makes their luck and who
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doesn't and who misses the luck so it
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really is a many ways about about your
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attitude about how you behave in life is
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there a a sort of counterintuitive piece
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of advice that you picked up through
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this
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process that's a great question um
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I don't know about counterintuitive but
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there was a great piece of um Insight
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that Sam zel the the Real Estate Mogul
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um from Chicago that he he said to me
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that really made me rethink about what a
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big organization is really about he said
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to me look as an
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entrepreneur um you know I need as much
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information as possible in a big
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Corporation people use information as
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currency so they trade it they the more
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information a person has the more power
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that person has in a big organization
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but he said in a small company or an
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entrepreneurial environment if you're
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keeping a a piece of information away
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from me then you're damage then you're
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damaging my own company um because I
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need to make decisions you know quickly
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and I need to make them with as much
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information as possible so he told me a
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story about a woman that he hired from a
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major corporation he said she was an
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overachiever uh he said she was you know
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she had she was a star all the way
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through her career came into his
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organization nine months later nine
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months later he fired her and he said
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it's because she used the same practice
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of using information as currency and
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when he told me that I thought gez how
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many big companies have I worked for
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where I have seen that happen I have
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done the same thing you know I take I
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have done the committed the same crime
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of of using information to get
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information from other people and using
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information and hoarding it so that I
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have the power you know over the
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colleagues that I work with and and I
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thought geez that is such a great that
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is such a great observation and I need
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to check myself and make sure I'm not
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doing something like that because
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organizations talk about transparency
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but it's the execution of it that really
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obviously
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matters yeah I think it's it's something
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we've all faced and you know I think
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about my own experiences of you know you
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come across a piece of knowledge that
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seems to be unique do you basically use
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it for your own benefit or do you try to
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figure out how to share it for some kind
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of collective gain well yes because J
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samit uh who is a founder of this
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company called uu it's like a Skype
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Skype like um company he said to me we
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were sitting at for coffee and talking
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about this book and I was doing an
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interview for the book and he said I
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said what about your because he's a
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perennial entrepreneur he's a perennial
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uh startup guy he's like started up you
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know a dozen companies I said what about
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ideas you know what you know do you how
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do you how do you come up with ideas and
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when you come up with ideas what do you
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do with them he says your everybody
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every person's job is to make sure that
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if they have an idea not to hoard it but
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to give that idea to everybody else and
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I said but you know people say I have an
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idea and I want to keep it and I don't
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want anybody to know about it he said no
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your job is to kill your idea he said
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beat it up find every single way why
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that idea is a bad idea and what you
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come out with at the end is the actual
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idea so when he told me that I thought
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wow like you know everyone has a
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different reaction they all think they
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have to you know keep their idea Secret
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and you know only release it at a time
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that they feel like it's it's you know
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it's the proper time but he was saying
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absolutely not just broadcast it out he
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said because part of the reason is that
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everybody H many people have great ideas
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but very few actually follow up on them
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so that's you know if you're the rare
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person who follows up you're way ahead
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of the game it reminds me of some some
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research by Dunbar and colleagues who
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found that successful microbiology Labs
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that produced a lot of patents and
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groundbreaking Innovations actually had
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this Norm of just tearing each other's
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ideas apart and you almost couldn't get
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through a day without having your idea
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dissected and destroyed but it was for
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ultimately the benefit of of new
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discoveries right exactly that's exactly
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the same idea you're like wait a minute
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where did this come from where did this
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come from well I I'm curious you know
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there there's just a fascinating sort of
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cast of characters in this book and if
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you think through the different
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interviews that you did are there one or
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two people who stand out as the most
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interesting well you know S I mean Sam
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zel I think is is a fascinating
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character himself and Warren Buffett of
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course you know I've interviewed him you
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know about a dozen times so far in my
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career and he's he's always uh you know
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very very interesting but
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um you
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know you know it's almost like trying to
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pick from like your you know because
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they were actually all um really really
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interesting but um Jamie Diamond I
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thought was you know this was during
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right at the height of the London whale
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uh Fiasco and I had a little bit of a
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curiosity to to just see you know did he
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have more stress lines on his face was
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he you know just a little bit more down
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from everything and he was true to form
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you know I mean he knew he would had to
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be on but he was he was very you know
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sort of still Jamie Diamond still you
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know I'm G to get through this and I'm
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going to get this company through this
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uh Bob Ben Moshe actually was a really
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interesting interview and and you know
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I'd always heard all these stories about
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him and you know that he's kind of a you
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know quirky guy and you he came out of
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he was had a Vineyard in Croatia and he
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came out of retirement to take over AIG
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um and he you know called I don't know
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if you remember the the famous line
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where he when he came out of retirement
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he you know he had said something to the
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effect of I'm going to take over AIG I'm
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going to bring this company back to life
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and I don't care what those crazies in
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Washington think of me and those crazies
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in Washington got pretty pissed off at
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them and uh you know didn't like didn't
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like what he said about them but um he
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was he I just thought he was very
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interesting CU he had a lot of um
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insights about what it was like to be
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you know to be not poor but almost on
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the brink of bankruptcy when he was
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younger when his father passed away so
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just I know I'm rambling here with with
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some of these stories but they were all
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they I took nuggets from all of them and
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just applied them to my life well I
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guess on the subject of applying some of
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these ideas to your life you said you
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were surprised that so many people
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actually said yes to these interviews
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and and one thing that that I wonder
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about is if you didn't have the the
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history and the relationship with them
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if you weren't at bloom ber what can we
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learn from a successful journalist about
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how to actually get access to somebody
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whose ideas are so important well you
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know it's funny you mention that Adam
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because you know yes the Bloomberg
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platform helps and yes you know the fact
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that I've been in this career for so
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long also helps but you know I want to I
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want part of my motivation in a way for
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the for a book like this is I want to
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let people know that access to people
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like Jamie Diamond and Warren Buffett
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and Bob B Moshe and Sally CR it's really
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not that hard I mean any of your
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students if they tried hard enough uh
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would be able to get a response from any
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of these people uh you it's
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accessibility it's being able to go to
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them with the right question and the
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right proposal and any one of them would
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be accessible to to anybody and that was
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kind of what I wanted to that was kind
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of a motiv a motivation for the book
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that you know here's here's the access
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but you yourself can get that access if
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you try and you just apply your you know
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your energy to it tell us
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how good ideas um good
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questions
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um hard work to find their prop their
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correct con contact info um I do believe
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in the you know Six Degrees of
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Separation you can always find somebody
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who knows someone who knows someone who
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knows that person um and I think that
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kind of skill is so important in
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whatever profession you are whether it
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is journalism or you're an entrepreneur
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or you're a banker you're you know a
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professor you know so um but once you
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get in the door it's important to really
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think carefully how do you approach that
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person what's a compelling what's your
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compelling um you know opening to them
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and I you know people people for
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instance they email me you know um and
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if if there's a big difference between
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emailing me because they've read
00:15:08
something that I've written or or that I
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did on on my show or they're you know
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seeking some sort of um guidance or
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advice versus you know hi my name is
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such and such and could you help me with
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something there's such a big difference
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I'm sure Adam you get tons of emails
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like that too and there are differences
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you know to there there's different
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approaches and some are more effective
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than others yeah I think there's there's
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no doubt about that no doubt about that
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well I you know I think it's interesting
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that you were sort of encouraged to
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write a book on Career advice that you
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would offer and then you turned to other
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people and and curated their advice
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right but if you do look back on your
00:15:47
own career and think about how your view
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of what it takes to succeed has changed
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over the past few years what what do you
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know now that you hadn't perhaps thought
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about
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before that's a great question
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um you know I've always I mean I you
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know I always I've I've always known
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that you know my parents taught me you
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have to work hard you have to work hard
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um you have to uh uh you know uh know
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your stuff do your research and so when
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I started when I left college and I
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started out that was kind of my you know
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my focus work you know work hard do all
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your research you know your your you
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everything that you whatever work that
00:16:33
you do is going to rise it's going to
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rise to the Top If it's good work no
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matter what um so that was kind of that
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was my focus when I graduated in my 20s
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but as I've gotten older and older you
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know I start to realize that it's much
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more that now my career is yes all about
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that but also I've learned that
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relationships really matter that being
00:16:56
likable really matters that um giving
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giving is almost more important than it
00:17:03
is you know T and it always is but
00:17:06
taking that you know that there is
00:17:09
really um you know that that that all
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that those things are also almost just
00:17:15
as important and maybe even more so than
00:17:17
just being a a really you know a really
00:17:19
excellent writer or really you know
00:17:21
great show host um so I've kind of I
00:17:24
guess you could say matured you know in
00:17:26
my view Through The Years where you know
00:17:28
I had sort of this very narrow kind of
00:17:30
view of like what what how how do I get
00:17:32
successful how do I be successful so now
00:17:34
it's more about you know what about the
00:17:35
people around me and how do I you know
00:17:38
how do I lift them up so that then I
00:17:40
will also be lifted up how do I become
00:17:42
you know how do I make sure I'm every
00:17:45
day adding to them how do I give to them
00:17:47
so they'll give back to me you know
00:17:49
those sorts of things I'm start I'm
00:17:51
learning now as I get as I get older
00:17:54
well needless to say I'm I'm a huge fan
00:17:55
of that particular message I know yes
00:17:58
and in in closing if you know if you
00:18:00
think about the different ways that that
00:18:02
you try to help or give back to others
00:18:04
is is there a favorite that stands out
00:18:06
well
00:18:08
um I always you know I I always I always
00:18:13
hope that when I'm on on the program and
00:18:16
I'm you know doing my interviews or um
00:18:21
I'm you know uh essentially you know
00:18:23
reporting information I'm always hoping
00:18:25
that I'm teaching somebody something
00:18:27
that I'm always that I'm giving them
00:18:28
information that they couldn't have
00:18:30
gotten before anywhere else or that it's
00:18:32
analysis that they that they couldn't
00:18:34
have gotten uh you know anywhere else so
00:18:37
I always I always hope I'm I'm doing
00:18:39
that on a you know inter person an
00:18:41
interpersonal level um I just try to
00:18:44
Mentor as many as many people as I can
00:18:46
you know young people who who come up to
00:18:48
me and say you know I would like to be
00:18:50
in television or I would like to do
00:18:51
journalism or or or many of them come up
00:18:53
to me and say what should I do um so i'
00:18:56
I'd love to do more of that and I and I
00:18:59
think you know as I as I continue and
00:19:02
with this book that I'm hoping that I
00:19:04
get to BR part pars you know parse out
00:19:07
some of that information and be able to
00:19:10
distribute that to to to other people so
00:19:12
that hopefully you know a light clicks
00:19:15
for them or something clicks for them in
00:19:16
their heads and it changes the way they
00:19:18
they view their careers I'm I'm looking
00:19:21
forward to watching that and again
00:19:22
congratulations on the launch of work
00:19:24
thank you Adam thank you very much
