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Hi, I'm Adam Grant. I'm here with
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Jessica Jackley, the author of Clay,
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Water, Brick, and also the co-founder of
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KA. Jessica, tell us why you wrote this
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book.
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Thanks for having me, Adam. It's nice to
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see you. It's nice to be here. I wrote
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the book to share with people my own
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entrepreneurial journey and more
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importantly to share with them the
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incredible insight and wisdom that I
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encountered in unexpected entrepreneurs
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along the way. So whereas for most of my
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formal business education I got a lot of
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um I got pointed in the direction of a
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lot of sort of usual suspect examples um
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in terms of who you know who's who in
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business and especially in Silicon
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Valley who's who in the startup world
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which ends up feeling sometimes like a
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very narrow place of you know a certain
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kind of tech startup led by a certain
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kind of um person. when I got to
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actually get out into the world and
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travel and work a lot with entrepreneurs
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in usually developing countries, but at
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very least communities that were um
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socio-economically disadvantaged, I
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would meet these incredible people doing
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really important work despite the fact
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that they had very little education or
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very little resources or well I should
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say and often um or no connections to
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anybody in a powerful position. they
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they lacked or had lost a lot, but they
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were incredibly wise um incredibly um
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clear thinkers, intelligent people doing
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incredible things. And I find their
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stories the most motivating, motivating
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and empowering and um inspiring of any
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other entrepreneur studies that I've
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encountered. What What did you learn
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from them? So, if if you think of some
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of the entrepreneurs who affected you
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most, you said they had a lot of wisdom.
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What were some of the takeaways? So,
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well, the o the clay water brick. It's
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funny. Yeah, this is my first book
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interview, so it's it's uh still not
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rolling off my tongue, but Clay Water
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brick, that title is taken from is
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inspired from the story of a brickmaker
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named Patrick, who I met in Uganda and
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who basically started to change
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everything for himself when one day he
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decided to make life better and to try
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to build something and he had all
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virtually nothing. So he literally, you
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know, not not not figuratively, not like
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in a cliche way that we talk about
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rolling up your sleeves and getting your
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hands dirty, like he actually really did
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this, dug into the ground beneath his
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feet, his bare feet, and started to
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shape a brick, shape bricks out of the
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clay, mixed water with it to make the
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right consistency. And then that's how,
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you know, after a few years, he built a
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brick business where he had several
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employees and was certainly thriving,
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certainly relative to where he'd been
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before.
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So for example, I mean that's just one
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little glimpse of one story. And of
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course I think the main lesson that he
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can teach all of us is that you really
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you don't need to wait to get started.
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You don't need to wait until you have
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all your resources nicely lined up. Just
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start with whatever you have in front of
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you. Even if it's messy or scrappy or
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there's it's rough around the edges
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again, quite literally. Just start and
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you can build something pretty amazing.
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And you also did that yourself. So tell
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us a little bit about how you started
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KA. Sure. Uh gosh, it makes me feel old.
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10 years ago, I was in East Africa
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meeting people like the Patricks of the
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world and I realized there are a few
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things. One, I realized that they indeed
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were incredible entrepreneurs. And that
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was huge for me because for most of my
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life, the narrative about um poverty
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that I that I had heard did not allow
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for now didn't allow for that to be a
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reality. I heard from well-intentioned
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nonprofit organizations uh that wanted
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me to participate in their work as a
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donor that the poor were not
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entrepreneurial necessarily. They were
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people who had stories mostly of sadness
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and suffering and desperation and they
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needed me to participate as a donor and
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the organization would sort of take care
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of the rest. I didn't hear the stories
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of strength and and and empowerment and
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people sort of lifting themselves up by
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their bootstraps if they only had access
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to a little bit of a resource that I had
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had access to my whole my whole life, a
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small bit of capital, small loan. Um,
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and so that for me changed the story and
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I thought those stories were really
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worth sharing. So one, I heard I saw a
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different story of poverty and potential
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that was huge. And two, I really felt
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like I mean I am for most of my life
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I've been kind of a lite. I'm not, you
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know, I I've studied philosophy and
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poetry undergrad. There were computer
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science courses. I did not take them.
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There were there were business courses.
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I didn't take them for the record um
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until later. Went back and got my MBA.
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I'm a fan of that. That was a good
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thing. But um I saw the potential even
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even I saw the potential of technology
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in these very um faroff places in the
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middle of a village with no electricity
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source in Uganda or Tanzania or Kenya
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where I was working at the time 10 years
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ago. But I saw how I could hand my cell
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phone to the goat herder that I was
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meeting and have that person talk to my
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mom and dad back home. And I could leave
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my camera and get pictures from what was
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going on in that village where nothing
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else really had reached. Um it was very
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easy to to to connect them with just
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little bits that even I had. So seeing
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that there was a new story to be told.
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Seeing that that new story, this is two
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parts I guess allowed for a different
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response, not just for anybody who heard
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the story to participate as a donor to a
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big nonprofit that would end up touching
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that person, but somebody could respond
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directly perhaps with a loan directly,
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which was needed, not just the
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donations. Um, and then seeing that
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technology could really connect
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everyone led to the idea for KA. And I
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laugh when I read case studies or things
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like that that have been written about
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KA because at this moment in time the 10
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years ago idea being born moment. It's
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often said in a very sophisticated kind
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of intimidating way. Like I hear it and
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I think wow did that really I'm like oh
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this is me. This is my story because
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they'll say something like thus was born
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the idea for the world's first peer-to-p
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peer microl lending marketplace. And
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there's all these big words. I mean they
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sometimes they um it's even written
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about as you know an early crowdfunding
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thing. I didn't use the word
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crowdfunding until like five years ago.
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Well, not maybe a little earlier than
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that. But it was a very simple desire.
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Ka was born out of a very simple um
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desire and a very simple set of ideas to
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connect people that I knew back in the
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United States mostly with these new
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friends that I was meeting these
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incredible entrepreneurs who had a
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different story to tell. The way to
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connect them was through a loan. So
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that's what we tried to do. And I I know
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there are many people who have been
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inspired by the fact that this wasn't
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just charity, right? you're you're
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actually able to get a loan. The
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repayment rate staggering. Can you tell
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us a little bit about how that works?
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Sure. So, um I have like one micro
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credit micro finance joke and here it
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comes. Get ready. Uh credit is due not
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to necessarily pea for the super high
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repayment rates which
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are at least 98.5 often 99% on average
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at any given moment.
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Um but because throughout micro finance
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overall there's a lot of work being done
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to help people succeed especially with
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the missiondriven organizations that are
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out there. I mean there are big banks
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that now offer microloans and then there
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are nonprofits grassroots organizations
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that offer loans sometimes they offer to
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different groups but even when they're
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offering to the same um you see a lot of
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organizations work really hard to make
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sure those people succeed and to make
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sure repayment rates get up there.
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whether that means extending a loan, um
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making sure that there's group support,
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that sort of thing. Often loans are
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given in groups. There's so much to talk
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about. Um but um yeah, it's been really
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amazing to watch. I mean, it's it's been
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one of the greatest experiences of my
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life to watch the world respond and say,
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"Yes, we value these entrepreneurs, too.
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We want to lend for free. I mean, at 0%
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interest, for no financial gain. We want
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to lend to somebody so that they can try
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to reach their potential." I it's it's
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been awesome. And I think yeah, so
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repayment rates 99ish% and then if it
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hasn't crossed already, it's keeps about
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to cross 700 million in loans in these
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little $25 bits from people all around
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the world. Wow. Of course, you can't
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help but wonder about impact. And I know
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you're aware there's some evidence
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that's come out recently suggesting that
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maybe micro savings programs could be
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more effective than micro lending
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programs. How do you how do you react to
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that? What do you make of that? I think
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there's no well as um Nicholas Kristoff
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who I know we both really appreciate um
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has talked about there's no silver
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bullet. I would never claim to say that
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micro credit micro lending is a silver
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bullet. He's talked before about in this
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in other context sort of a buckshot
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approach which I I love that analogy. Um
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I think micro savings I mean what's
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funny is they're often a part of micro
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lending programs.
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Micro finance right is the largest
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heading we can talk about and I mean if
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anybody if any Wharton folks are
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listening to this I'm I'm obviously
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preaching to the choir but obviously
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micro finance is the broadest heading
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micro credit is one such product under
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that heading one such service um micro
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insurance is one micro savings is
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another often these things work best
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together and the truth is you know I
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believe in the power of teaching people
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to think entrepreneurially or better yet
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just giving them opportunities to to
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figure out how to activate that part of
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themselves. Doesn't always have to be
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taught, per se. I think you just give
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people opportunities to exercise what
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they already have inside of them. And I
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think I value watching people go through
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the process of receiving a
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microloan regardless of the outcome of
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the viability of the business. Now, of
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course, I very much prefer when those
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businesses thrive and go on to provide
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more of a sustainable livelihood for
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folks, but I've seen cases in which
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somebody receives a loan, they ended up
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having, you know, something happen.
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There's often an anomaly, like there's a
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disaster they needed some of the money
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for instead of repaying their loan fully
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or the business survived for for a
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while, but then it shifted. Whatever
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happens, if it's not a business success
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at the end of the journey, I've never
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once met somebody who has not grown or
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changed in a positive way because of the
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entire experience of going through
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receiving that loan, being trusted with
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that resource, and given an opportunity,
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given a chance to thrive um and build
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something meaningful in their lives.
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So, it's a little bit of how I look at
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it, but I'm I'm I'm fascinated by and
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and very uh pro uh the idea of micro
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savings programs. Maybe maybe that'll be
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the next thing that really takes over
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the space and is is prioritized above
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microloans and other things. That that
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would be interesting to see. Jessica,
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what do you think are the biggest
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misconceptions that entrepreneurs carry
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around?
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I think regardless of um where they are,
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where we are in the world, um
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entrepreneurs tend
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to get stuck I think more than they need
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to because they think that they need
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something to move forward and actually
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there's you know they can get there
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anyway over around through they can
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figure out a ways are great at doing
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that in general but I often see people
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stop at particular points where they
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don't necessarily need the things they
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think they
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Um, for example,
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um, with my second startup co-founder,
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there was a woman, um, and this is a
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story also in the book, but there's a
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woman
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who thought that she needed to raise
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$90,000 for her small business. It was a
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a whale watching kind of tour business.
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And it turns out that she she put, you
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know, she put that out there into the
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world to say, "This is what I need to
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get. I need this funding so I can go
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purchase a new boat and all these
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things." And her friends who were
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supporting her, they didn't have all the
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money to support her. and financially,
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but they knew the thing that she needed.
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They knew they needed this boat, and so
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they were they were on the lookout for
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this, and it turns out they found it at,
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you know, a tenth the cost, something
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something incredibly discounted. So, she
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she ended up kind of getting there in a
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different way than she thought she
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would, but she definitely thought the
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path was raise the money, then find the
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thing itself, not go direct to the thing
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itself. Just a small example. So, we
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don't always need to be funded before we
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can get started as entrepreneurs.
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Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's
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helpful. And for some it's absolutely
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the very first you know the first thing
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that that is necessary but it's not
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always the case and that's the fun of
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entrepreneurship right and the way I
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think even broader than being an
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entrepreneur starting a business or even
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acting entrepreneurally within a company
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being an entrepreneur living
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entrepreneurally I feel like is about
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seeing those other ways through those
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other ways around and seeing opportunity
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where we might overlook it at first.
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Jessica I can't help but notice there
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have been a few squeaks in the
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background. What's going on? That is the
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That is absolutely true. So, my infant
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son, my third son, is over there in the
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stroller chiming in now. Um, he's with
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me because tiny right on Q. Asa, say hi.
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And he is with me um pretty much
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non-stop these days. This is what it
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looks like for me to work be a working
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mom. So, I he's here. He's in the
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studio. And I appreciate that everyone
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has been so welcoming, including him,
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wherever I am. That's kind of my mo.
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That's how I That's how one of the ways
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that I find balance. He comes to a lot
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of my work events. We hope to have him
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on set in a future year. He's he's uh
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he's getting ready to go. Great.
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Jessica, thanks for joining us today.
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Thank you, Adam.
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[Music]
