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I'm Adam Grant I'm here with Sally cotek
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you may know her as the most powerful
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woman on Wall Street she ran Merill and
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she also ran Smith Barney and now she's
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the owner of 85 broads the business
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Network for women Sally welcome thank
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you Adam talk to me for starters about
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your views on leadership and how they've
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evolved over the course of your career
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oh well leadership is a lot of hard work
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uh you know I sort of hoped when I was
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earlier I'd just be a natural leader um
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or that it was something that was innate
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but it's really learn skill and it's the
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result of I don't have to tell you
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thousands and thousands and thousands of
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micro lessons over long periods of time
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in which you try a little bit of
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leadership it worked you try this method
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of leadership you fall in your face
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somebody gives you feedback you adjust
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and it can be some big lessons the end
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of your review uh but more importantly
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it's those micro lessons that occur and
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one of the things that I'm very aware of
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is that that for women one of my P my
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passions is is women in business and
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helping women to get ahead in business
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that that feedback loop can be broken uh
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that women won't get as much feedback
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from male bosses as men will get um and
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so therefore they have to make an extra
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effort whether that's unfortunate good
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bad indifferent uh have to make that
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extra effort as I did during my the
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entire course of my career to say how
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did I do how did I did I do an okay job
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on answering that question how did I do
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in terms of that business presentation
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how did I do uh you know with that deck
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how did I do in that meeting and to
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constantly be looking for feedback that
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might otherwise not be offered in order
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to learn leadership and to get ahead so
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I I think that's a fascinating Dilemma
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to to navigate because one of my mentors
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Sue Ashford spent the about the last 30
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years studying feedback seeking and she
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finds that people who actually seek out
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criticism get better ratings and tend to
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rise faster of course fishing for
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compliments is bad but there's also this
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risk of being perceived as insecure if
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you're constantly asking how did I do
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what could I be doing better how did you
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manage that but I think it's tone you
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know there's how did I do did I do okay
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and there's hey how could I make that
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better what what did you think of that
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was that you know was that okay um and
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so I think there's a certain matter of
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factless to it um and look you don't
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have to do it 12 times a day but if you
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present to the board of directors it's
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worth when it's over what can I do next
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time to do a better job and what that
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does is it gives other individuals those
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who give you feedback a stake in you you
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know because they gave that feedback
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they're there for you then in a way that
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they wouldn't be if you finish the
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presentation leave the room and that's
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that assuming of course that you
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actually listen to their feedback and
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take it into account the next time
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around well and this is where people can
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run into trouble because if you ask for
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feedback you're not going to get
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positive feedback 100% of the time and
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indeed some you'll get feedback that
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just doesn't feel right and there's
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always that desire particularly amongst
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younger professionals I've seen to fight
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the feedback or get defensive about the
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feedback and the truth is if that's the
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feedback it's the reality it might not
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be what you were intending it might not
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be what you think but that's that's even
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more valuable if it doesn't feel quite
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right because you're learning new
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information that you can
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incorporate so you mentioned that that
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seeking feedback is actually one way to
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increase the investment that other
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people have in you and I think that
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relates to one of your favorite
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observations which is that networking
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Isa the most undervalued skill that
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people deal with in their careers what
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are your your favorite tips on how to
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build a great Network well the problem
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is many individuals think of networking
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as shmoozing and what can pop into our
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head is a couple of folks on a golf
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course and then there's a beer
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afterwards and and I have nothing
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against that whatsoever um I prefer wine
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but beer is perfectly good too but what
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a network actually can be is a a network
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of of nerving sort of a a feedback
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mechanism and that you get a certain
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amount of feedback if you and I are the
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only people we know in the world you
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will'll have a pretty limited um set of
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information but as you know more and
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more people you're able to hear much
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more quickly about the new piece of
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research that impacts your company the
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startup that can impact your company the
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RFP that's being done the board position
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that's opened up you know you name it
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the the really talented individual who's
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now available for higher
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and loose connections are more likely to
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lead to your next business opportunity
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than your close connection so it's
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really having a network out there and my
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advice for folks on networking is and
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you will appreciate this more than
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anybody give give give you'll later
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receive but you're really planting these
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seeds that are out there and many of
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them some of them will die and they
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won't become anything and many of them
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will take many many years before they
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pay off for you if at all are there
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favorite acts of giving that You'
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focused on is you've thought about
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building your own network you know it
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doesn't it doesn't have to be big stuff
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it doesn't have to be Adam I am
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presenting you with a business gift uh
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but instead it can be oh gosh I met with
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Adam a couple weeks ago and I know he
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was interested in X and here's an
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article on X so let me send it over to
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him um you know or I met someone that
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Adam would you know I think they'd
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really hit it off let me make that
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introduction to them or offer to make it
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to them it's the little things that are
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out there um that one can do just
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keeping other people in mind
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that you know that I find come back
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double and triple time and in fact you
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know I don't think I've gotten a new
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business opportunity or a new job from
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an executive Search person terrific
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though many of them are um since I
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graduated from Business School uh but
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the opportunities that I've uh come
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across have come from my
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network so what do most people do wrong
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then when they build their networks one
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problem obviously you mentioned is
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dealing with people who are too similar
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to you or having a closed loop another
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is focusing on SM smoing or what I can
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get as opposed to what I can contribute
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any other errors that you see well as we
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think about women um women as they move
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through their 20s into their 30s they're
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not doing enough networking and and I
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can feel what so many of them are
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thinking like I like I don't have enough
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time to do everything I'm doing much
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less that but uh some of the research
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I've seen shows that as we get into our
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mid-30s as some of the gentlemen move
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ahead in their careers and the women
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don't one part of it is who you know
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what you know it's not are you good at
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your job by that time if you're not good
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at that job you're in a different job
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but is as the individuals get the
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promotion it can be those people who've
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got those those strong networks and so
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for many women it's not a network this
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way or network that way it's it's think
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about networking and again it doesn't
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have to be the day at the golf course it
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can be the email connection that occurs
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he used a word that's a little bit music
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to my ears a moment ago which is
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research it's something we don't hear
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leaders do very often but it's something
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that I've noticed it's very distinctive
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about your writing that there's often a
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research shows or here's what the
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evidence suggests how do you stay up to
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date on evidence and what advice would
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you offer to leaders on that it's so
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funny I was earlier today I was I was
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saying I I consider myself to be a
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recovering research analyst and my first
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job wasn't as a research analyst on on
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Wall Street but it was very early on and
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it was sort of my my foundational job
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and what I love about research you know
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is you know you can you can just vacuum
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it all up and you can piece a very
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interesting portrait together from the
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little bits of research you put together
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um so I always said as a manager and a
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leader I embrace your opinion I'd love
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to hear your opinion but we're making
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decisions off of facts and off of
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research um and so I read research like
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other people read sports magazines or
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fashion
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magazines I'm glad I'm not alone oh no
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it's it's a really uh party time around
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my house on the weekend as I read
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research
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well so the other thing that I've I've
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admired most when reading your work over
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the past few years is how candid you are
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about failures especially um again
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extremely unusual to hear a leader with
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so much experience and so many
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accomplishments admit I got fired not
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once but twice and here's what I took
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away from it how did you get to that
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level of cander first of all I don't
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know you know I look I think there's a I
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think I have an underlying gratitude for
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the opportunities I've had if you had
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told me when I was a a girl growing up
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in Charleston South Carolina the 60s and
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the 70s that I would be on the front
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page of the Wall Street Journal I I
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wouldn't I would have said what's the
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Wall Street Journal but it would have
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flabbergasted me and if you'd said then
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and by the way you're going to be fired
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on the front page of the Wall Street
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Journal would said score wow I get to do
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something that is g to is going to have
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an impact and and I still have that
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sense of I can't believe I get to do
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what I get to do it's by accident of
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birth it's by accident of who my parents
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were that I've had these set of
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opportunities which I've to take nothing
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away from the hard work which you know
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I've worked hard to to achieve but if
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it's there's a sense of gratitude and
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then if you think about all the folks
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who've helped me along the way if I can
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share some of my experiences and keep
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one young person from making one of the
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mistakes I've made and and by the way
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this is particularly true for those of
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us who were in the banking industry
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during the downtown I think every one of
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us should be talking about what happened
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and really exploring and thinking about
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the causes of those downturns I think we
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owe it to the next Generation I think we
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owe it to our country quite frankly so I
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don't know you know by the way it was
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all in the paper anyway so what what the
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heck am I going to hide pretend like it
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didn't happen does that mean it was
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maybe more difficult to be that open
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earlier in your career when you had a
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stumbling block or an obstacle nobody
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cared so I mean you do reach a you do
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reach a point where if you're you're
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talking about the stumbling block and
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you're 30 years old people are saying
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you're you're boring um but that you
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know once you've had a certain level of
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achievement um you know again I think
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you you you have an obligation to to
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share if you if you feel comfortable
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doing so you've mentioned that women in
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business is a big passion of yours and a
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relatively newly discovered one yeah
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what what are your favorite
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recommendations for first of all
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increasing the representation of women
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in leadership positions and secondly not
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just representation but making sure that
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that women end up having a real impact
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well I I think this is incredibly
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important and I think there is an
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enormous amount of good advice much of
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it directed to women about what they can
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do to achieve um and they're terrific
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bestselling books on it I think there's
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another Avenue for us to explore because
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if we take that to an extreme you know
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we have to remember that the positive
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part the benefit of diversity is
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diversity and so if we try to put
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everyone into the same box how much of
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that benefit of diversity are you giving
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up and so I as I think about it I think
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a lot about getting the gentleman into
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the conversation on gender diversity uh
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we're having conversations earlier today
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about some of the biases the subtle
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well-meaning biases men and women have
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about women and how to see those as
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being uh a sort of friction in the
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system um that if we can overcome can
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enable business to be more successful
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because while you know our all the
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analysts out there will say we haven't
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necessarily proven causation I'm not
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sure if we've gone to correlation but it
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is an awfully big coincidence that more
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diverse companies have higher returns
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lower volatility lower risk more client
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focus more Innovation you know that
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diverse leadership teams outperform more
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smarter more capable leadership teams I
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mean all these things are good and so I
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think we have to ask ourselves what are
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the if it were easy we would have
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already fixed it so what are the many
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different means to helping get um more
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diversity the top put another way less
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group think let's bring this then to
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Wall Street specifically so I spent some
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time working with Goldman sacks over the
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summer on the culture change initiatives
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that they were beginning including not
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working on Saturdays and uh actually
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redesigning jobs to make them more
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enriched more learning opportunities
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more client contact I was quite
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impressed by their commitment to
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actually Reinventing what work was like
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for analysts and Associates where do you
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see Wall Street moving well thank
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goodness we're companies are starting to
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address that because there's just no way
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that's good for anybody and and even if
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we think it's a good idea to drive these
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young people into the ground um you've
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seen the research that I've seen on
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business creativity and business
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productivity and there's no doubt
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someone who's pulled all nighter after
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all nighter there's no way there's doing
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they're doing as good a job for the
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clients and eventually for the
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shareholders as someone who is able to
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string two thoughts together um so I
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think you know that that is a a worthy
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undertaking and that's at the bottom of
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these organizations we've talked about
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diversity getting to the top of these
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organizations you know one of the I
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think truly unexamined causes of the
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financial crisis and we've spent so much
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time as a country on the topic of greed
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as a cause I'd say a cause we should
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also be thinking about as group think
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and while there is in the sort of
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popular press this view that these were
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Wall Street Evil Geniuses who who
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foresaw the
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downturn you've probably seen the
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research that I have that shows that
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subprime Bankers had worse personal real
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estate performance than the average
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American so these were not Evil Geniuses
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these were individuals who bought you
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know who made the soup and ate the soup
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and so how do we inject um skepticism
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questioning different thinking into
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these these companies and one is let
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people get some sleep so they can think
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another is diversity and I think we need
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to keep chipping away at this I love the
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the idea of focusing on group think when
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Janice first did the research on this
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topic he thought it was all about
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becoming too cohesive and that if if a
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group got too tight-knit then they would
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actually stop questioning and
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challenging each other and now the
00:14:12
evidence suggests something quite
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different which is it's actually about
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overconfidence that a group can be tight
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but as long as we know we don't have all
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the answers and we are willing to
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question each other we can actually get
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diverse perspectives how do you then
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keep confidence in check especially as
00:14:27
you gain success in your career well I
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think that's one question I think the
00:14:30
other question is the tone from the top
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what you know what I've seen in the I've
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worked for seven Financial Services CEOs
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directly so I think that's more than
00:14:39
anybody um and the the real question is
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how does that CEO incourage an active
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debate and drive an active debate and at
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the best I've seen oh come on Adam give
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us your point of view take the other
00:14:53
side okay you don't believe in the other
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side take it anyway let's you know let's
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argue and let's scream each other let's
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really get into this and on another side
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I've seen CEOs who've shut people off
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and shut people down we don't have time
00:15:07
for this we we don't have the luxury for
00:15:09
this this is the path we've chosen let's
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go where they have put quickness of
00:15:15
decision- making over quality of
00:15:16
decision- making so I think it's you
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know I think there's an individual
00:15:21
question of how does one do that but I
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think there's a tone from the top
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question too which has to come from the
00:15:26
CEO or the business leader as well as
00:15:29
the board what do you do with a leader
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who doesn't quite appreciate the
00:15:32
importance of that find another job
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ideally well you know the look there are
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um sometimes when one has to sort of
00:15:40
fold one's tent and go to someplace else
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um whether it's a a because there are
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plenty of companies in this world you
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know you you do not have to stay at one
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company for forever if um there isn't
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the environment one wants if the company
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doesn't have the values that one wants
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you know you can try to work from within
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but if you're a mid-level employee and
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the company's doing things you don't
00:16:03
agree with you're allowed to get another
00:16:05
job yeah so you obviously have a chance
00:16:07
to make a huge impact on many of these
00:16:09
issues through the work that you're
00:16:10
doing with 85 broads what's your vision
00:16:12
well 85 broads is I say the Chek named
00:16:15
85 broads um I think it's such an
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interesting business because it it's
00:16:19
modern in many ways it's a network and
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I'm so fascinated by the idea that if we
00:16:24
wanted to accomplish things in business
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until 5 years ago 10 years ago it was a
00:16:29
company and now people can come together
00:16:31
with a common goal in a network so
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that's fascinating for me to sort of
00:16:35
watch how a network can move and evolve
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and this is a network around helping
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women Advance their careers and helping
00:16:41
companies Advance their women which as
00:16:44
we've discussed as something that can
00:16:45
have a real economic impact if women
00:16:48
were as engaged in the economy as men
00:16:50
are our GDP would be 9% bigger and in
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many countries around the world they
00:16:55
grow even more and and we've talked of
00:16:57
course about the positive to individual
00:17:00
companies um networking as we mentioned
00:17:02
is the number one Unwritten rule of
00:17:03
success in business so those things
00:17:05
coming together for me is a topic that
00:17:08
matters something that I feel passionate
00:17:11
about my team feels passionate about
00:17:12
it's Heaven it's absolute heaven so
00:17:14
we've got lots of cool and interesting
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things to try many of which will fail
00:17:19
many of which will fail um but the
00:17:21
opportunity to try it and be nimble and
00:17:23
entrepreneurial at this stage of my
00:17:25
career is about the most fun thing I've
00:17:27
done in a long time that's encouraging
00:17:29
to hear actually and it makes me wonder
00:17:32
what can men do to get into this
00:17:33
conversation I've I've talked frequently
00:17:35
with Executives and with students about
00:17:37
the fact that oftentimes conversations
00:17:38
about women in business shut the door to
00:17:40
men um it's a topic that I care a lot
00:17:42
about and it's not always easy to get
00:17:43
into that dialogue so what can we do
00:17:46
well I'll take the other point of view
00:17:49
um which is I'd say get into that
00:17:51
conversation I have sort of a joke
00:17:54
except it's not a joke that I often tell
00:17:56
when I go to these these conferences
00:17:59
um in which I say I mean we've convinced
00:18:01
each other we women all agree that
00:18:03
gender diversity matters but I will tell
00:18:06
you I worked in businesses that were
00:18:09
mostly men and by mostly men I mean by
00:18:11
far mostly men uh for more than 20 plus
00:18:17
years um and I have to tell you I've
00:18:19
I've interrupted a lot of gentlemen
00:18:21
having discussions a lot of times over
00:18:24
that time and never once did it go like
00:18:26
this hey guys hey what are y'all talking
00:18:28
about oh Sally interesting to see you
00:18:31
we're talking about the importance of
00:18:32
gender diversity for business that never
00:18:34
happened and so I'd say get in the
00:18:37
conversation you know begin to talk
00:18:39
about it begin to live it you know take
00:18:42
actions to overcome those subtle biases
00:18:45
and it matters tone from the top tone
00:18:47
from the top of a business uh matters
00:18:49
recognize that we all have these biases
00:18:52
learn about them and learn to overcome
00:18:53
them well I certainly hope that more of
00:18:55
us can and we're really thrilled that
00:18:57
you're able to join us today you Adam
00:18:59
thank you for having me
00:19:03
[Music]
