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Maurice Schweitzer: So if we take
a step back, and we think about the
00:00:02
traditional expectations and norms
that we have around men and women,
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we expect women to be more communal
and caring and kind;
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and we're expecting men
to be more assertive,
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more agentic. And there can be
penalties when people step outside
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of those assumed norms, those
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gendered norms. And so when women
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behave more assertively, that might
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be perceived to be less congruent
with the stereotype,
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compared to when a man
behaves assertively.
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Dan Loney: Welcome to The Ripple
Effect, the podcast that takes you
00:00:42
on a journey through the minds of
Wharton faculty.
00:00:45
I'm your host, Dan Loney,
00:00:47
and in each episode, we'll
be diving deep into the inspiration
00:00:50
behind the groundbreaking research
that Wharton professors have
00:00:53
conducted, and exploring
how their findings resonate
00:00:56
with the world today.
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Well, gender inequality in the workplace
has been an issue for quite a long
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time now, but how much does it
still occur, and what can be done
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to try and eliminate it?
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A pleasure to be joined by
Maurice Schweitzer,
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who is a Professor
of Operations, Information, and
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Decisions here at the Wharton
School. Maurice, great to talk to
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you again. How are you?
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Thanks for having me back.
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How much of an issue do you
think that gender inequality is in
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general in today's culture?
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You know, I think it's different
across different industries and
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across different divisions, but it
remains a persistent challenge.
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You know, you have done work in the past
looking at the differences between
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how men and women are perceived
in the workplace, and that goes to
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this level of concern
around gender inequality.
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Yeah. I— that's exactly right. So you can
think about gender differences that
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reflect how people act,
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and then how people
are treated, and then
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how people are evaluated based
upon their behaviors. And there's—
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there's evidence to suggest that basically
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women incur some costs in all three
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of those categories.
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How much of a challenge is it,
especially
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I would think right now
because we have seen
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an influx of women
moving into C-suite roles,
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and that becomes, I think,
you know,
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a greater challenge
for what has kind of been
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an established culture to a
degree in and around the workplace
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for many years?
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So we've definitely seen great
progress. That's absolutely true,
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and even in the C-Suite.
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Still, however,
women are more likely
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to be in roles like HR
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than to be the CEO
or chief financial officer.
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So even though we've seen
progress,
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there remain significant differences.
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What is the perception, then,
of a woman in the workplace,
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especially when
she's more assertive?
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Well, so if we take a step back
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and we think about the traditional
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expectations and norms that we have
around—
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around men and women,
we expect women
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to be more communal
and caring and kind; and we're
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expecting men to be more assertive,
more agentic.
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And there can be penalties
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when people step outside
of those assumed norms,
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those gendered norms.
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And so when women
behave more assertively,
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that might be perceived
to be less congruent
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with the stereotype, compared to
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when a man behaves assertively.
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And so there's some evidence to suggest
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that women experience more
pushback for similar behavior.
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So when you have a scenario like
that, then, what is the impact back
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onto the employees, whether they
be male or female, of having that
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component as a
perception in the office?
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Yeah. So— so it could be—
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it could present this challenge
because women who want to
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move up the corporate ladder
face a challenge because if they're
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assertive, they may be perceived
to be overly assertive.
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But a man doesn't
face that same penalty.
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What we've found,
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and what other scholars
have found is that
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when women advocate for a group—
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so for my team, for my
division, for my area—
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when women advocate for others,
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this sort of "we" or "us"
advocacy, it's now very consistent
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with that gendered norm.
So we're expecting—
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sort of like, think of that mama bear.
We're expecting
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an assertive woman attorney,
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or if you think about, say,
the U.S. Government,
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we've had women Secretaries
of State for many years.
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Think about Madeleine
Albright, for example, or
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Condoleezza Rice. Like,
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for many years,
we've had women who have been
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Secretary of State assertively
advocating for others,
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for the country, in this case.
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But how can a woman be assertive
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and still garner the respect
that she probably deserves?
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Well, so there's a— there's a bind,
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and I think this is
one of the challenges women face.
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So— so I think we've seen many
changes.
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I mean, If we think about
the last 60, 70 years,
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we've seen dramatic
changes. And even here, for example,
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at Wharton, our MBA class
becoming, you know, really
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really close to a 50/50 split
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in terms of gender in our
MBA classes.
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I think that reflects incredible progress
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and incredible
change from where we were before,
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when classes were exclusively
or predominantly men.
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We've seen the same thing happen in
executive positions, though not to
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the 50/50 level. I mean, so,
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things remain
in some areas like computer science
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and finance, the— the gender inequality
remains quite big,
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and I think in those cases in particular,
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women face a challenge
in being assertive,
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without being perceived to
have violated
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some gendered expectation.
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So going back to something you said
a moment ago, it seems like
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that component of advocating for others
within your group, within your
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sector, is a very important
component in terms of
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somewhat of a normalization
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of the
perception of a female leader
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in a— in a company,
in a sector.
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Well, yeah, what—
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what others have found is
that basically when women are very
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assertive in advocating for their
group --
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as opposed to for them individually—
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but advocating for the group,
when they frame it that way,
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that's perceived very
positively.
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In fact, they're— people are
expecting that.
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It's— it's congruent.
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And so there is a path,
there is a lane
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for women to be very assertive
and still consistent
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with that sort of stereotype
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in a way that does not cause them
blowback for— for being assertive.
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But then I would think the
individual's mindset and kind of
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work style, lifestyle
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probably ends up
playing a factor in this, as well,
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because no two individuals
are probably the same in terms of
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reacting to all of
these dynamics.
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Yeah, so there— there are definitely
individual differences.
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There are industry differences,
there are cultural differences
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sort of as we go
across different cultures,
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you can see that
the gender equality norms,
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for example in the Scandinavian countries,
Northern European countries,
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we see much greater
equality there
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than in some other—
other countries.
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And I think, you know, these things
are changing, not as fast as they
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ought to be. You know, as somebody with
daughters, I'm very keen to see
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these things change
faster than they are.
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Yeah, that was going to be my next
question, is realistically,
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are we looking at something that you think
can shift over time?
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Or is that some of that
historical mindset and bias
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kind of ground into what we deal
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with and probably will be
there for a long time to come?
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Well, you know, it's a socialization.
I think
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if we think about norms
in our society,
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you know, you and I
are probably similar in age
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to remember historically how—
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how we perceived people who are
homosexual, and now how normalized
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that's become. And part of that
comes from changes at the top,
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when leaders advocate for this.
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We see examples
when laws change.
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We can see norms change in
some cases pretty quickly.
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So I'm optimistic that we can make
real substantive change.
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I don't think this is an innate, fixed, or
fast perception.
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This is something
that can change. And it
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has been changing, but—
but gendered perceptions,
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gendered norms have been
slower to change than we'd like.
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And I find it interesting because it's
also a time where you will see
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companies, specifically probably
more small to mid-sized firms,
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that tend to end up being all female
or primarily female. And so I'm
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wondering how a lot of these
historical biases play in
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when you have a framework of
a company like that?
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It's interesting. Actually we're
seeing women
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in high school, in college,
be very successful,
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often more successful than
their male counterparts.
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And so new companies,
emerging companies, there—
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there's now an incredible supply of very
talented women,
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and in some cases, far more
talented women than— than men.
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Again, depending on the geographic
region, the area.
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But— but we're seeing,
just as you said, some companies
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completely led by women.
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Some new companies, some
even sort of completely
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comprised of women. And—
and I think that's going to
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be, you know, something that
will emerge going forward.
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I think that will help us, you know,
normalize the idea that,
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you know, anything somebody
from one group can do,
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another group can do.
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And, you know, we've been talking
about, you know, gender as sort of
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a binary thing, but—
but we're beginning to
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to understand that it's really
more of a continuum. - Yeah.
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And so I think— I think
our perceptions around gender
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are really going through a transition.
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And, you know, there are
fits and starts, and
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it's not all monotonic, but—
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but we're moving to a very
different place.
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Somewhat like what we're seeing
with some of the generational
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shifts and mindsets that we've seen
in recent years, as well, correct?
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I think that that's
exactly right.
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What's your expectation, then, for
how women should perceive
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the state of the workforce right now,
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and how to best
handle a lot of these
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biases and scenarios
when they come upon them?
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Well, yeah. So, I think it's—
it's tricky.
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So— so the one hand, I
would encourage women to be very
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optimistic and very
enthusiastic about
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the opportunities and the—
and the way forward.
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On the other hand, there's
no question that there remains
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gender bias, and women, as well
as minorities from, you know,
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every persuasion are
likely to encounter some bias
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at some point.
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What do you do about that?
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And it's tricky because we
can say, "Well, you want to fight
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everything everywhere," but it's
difficult to fight every battle,
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and there are some times when we've
got to pick and choose
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what we're taking on
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because there's a cost
as you sort of fight things and
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allocate your resources, the precious
time and attention that you have,
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to figure out where you can navigate
your career the best.
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You know, also, I'm optimistic
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these things will change over time,
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as we see more women leaders
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succeed and demonstrate that
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anything that was a sort of a
historically male position,
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women can do just the same.
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Where do you think that cost
ends up showing itself
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for the most part? Does it show it in
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the career path that a woman
may have?
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Does it even, to a degree, show
up in the productivity levels that
00:14:00
companies may or may not have?
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Well, it certainly can. And there is
some work on what are termed
00:14:09
"non-promotable tasks."
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There are things like, you know,
planning an office party
00:14:17
that come up, and some things
that may
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fall on some people more
that others—
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people who are around,
who seem congenial,
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who seem like they'd be a good fit for
doing something.
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And there are some tasks that
don't help people
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when it comes time for their annual
reviews and their promotions,
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that, you know, people can spend
time and effort and energy doing.
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And I think fighting some
battles
00:14:47
in ways that may upset some people,
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alienate people, create friction
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or cause people to wonder, "Hey,
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I know they had conflict.
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There are always two
sides of a story.
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Who knows how
much blame each side deserves?"
00:15:05
And so it could be that the battles
that people take up
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can be costly. And
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and so I think we have to, you know,
pick and choose where we—
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where we fight, and where we
00:15:20
push forward, advancing our careers
and sort of blazing a path for change
00:15:27
that, you know, frankly
has been slow.
00:15:30
Yeah, because the dynamic of having
those battles within the office
00:15:35
is certainly a totally different
scenario than having them out in
00:15:39
the public when you're
discussing topics, and you—
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and you disagree with somebody.
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I think that's right. So how public
these battles become, you know, that—
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if we think about influence
within an organization,
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we're trying to gain allies,
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we're trying to advocate
for our ideas and our positions.
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And so we need other people
to like us.
00:16:06
We need to be familiar
and likeable,
00:16:09
and— and sometimes that means not
arguing over everything.
00:16:15
And so again, I think that there's a—
00:16:21
there are tough choices that,
you know, some people, like
00:16:24
women or other minorities, might
have to decide that—
00:16:30
that represents a cost
that others may not face.
00:16:34
But that being said, you seem very
positive, very confident that we
00:16:39
are on the right path so that we
can have better work scenarios,
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better work locations, where we
don't have to deal with or consider
00:16:51
these biases as much as we move
forward,
00:16:53
as maybe we did in the past.
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I am. So I mean, I'm very
optimistic about the future.
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There are clearly setbacks,
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and, you know, in many organizations
and in many institutions,
00:17:10
some of the most intense pressure
00:17:13
gets put on young employees
00:17:17
during their childbearing years,
when they
00:17:21
are likely to be raising young kids.
00:17:24
You know, pregnant, raising young kids.
That makes things hard.
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I— you know, one cause for
optimism is I see—
00:17:32
you know, men and women—
you know, it isn't 50/50,
00:17:37
but we're seeing shifting
expectations and norms.
00:17:42
And, you know, women—
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women have been a major part of
the workforce for decades,
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and they're assuming
leadership positions.
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And we are seeing real
change. Is it—
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is it all going in one
direction? No,
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there are definitely
setbacks, but—
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but I'm optimistic that
things are changing,
00:18:03
and that we will—
we will, you know,
00:18:06
in our lifetime,
see things get better.
00:18:10
You know, at the rate of
change that we're seeing,
00:18:12
it's not going to be solved, but—
but things are getting better.
00:18:16
Maurice, thanks very much
for your time today. All the best.
00:18:19
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
00:18:21
You got it. Maurice Schweitzer,
who is a Professor of
00:18:24
Operations, Information, and Decisions
here at the Wharton School.
00:18:28
Thank you for listening to
The Ripple Effect.
00:18:30
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00:18:33
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00:18:35
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