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Maurice Schweitzer: So if we take
a step back, and we think about the traditional expectations and norms
that we have around men and women,
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we expect women to be more communal
and caring and kind; and we're expecting men
to be more assertive,
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more agentic. And there can be
penalties when people step outside of those assumed norms, those
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gendered norms. And so when women behave more assertively, that might be perceived to be less congruent
with the stereotype,
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compared to when a man
behaves assertively. Dan Loney: Welcome to The Ripple
Effect, the podcast that takes you
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on a journey through the minds of
Wharton faculty. I'm your host, Dan Loney,
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and in each episode, we'll
be diving deep into the inspiration behind the groundbreaking research
that Wharton professors have
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conducted, and exploring
how their findings resonate with the world today. Well, gender inequality in the workplace
has been an issue for quite a long
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time now, but how much does it
still occur, and what can be done to try and eliminate it?
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A pleasure to be joined by
Maurice Schweitzer, who is a Professor
of Operations, Information, and
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Decisions here at the Wharton
School. Maurice, great to talk to you again. How are you?
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Thanks for having me back. How much of an issue do you
think that gender inequality is in
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general in today's culture? You know, I think it's different
across different industries and
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across different divisions, but it
remains a persistent challenge. You know, you have done work in the past
looking at the differences between
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how men and women are perceived
in the workplace, and that goes to this level of concern
around gender inequality.
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Yeah. I— that's exactly right. So you can
think about gender differences that
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reflect how people act, and then how people
are treated, and then how people are evaluated based
upon their behaviors. And there's—
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there's evidence to suggest that basically women incur some costs in all three
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of those categories. How much of a challenge is it,
especially I would think right now
because we have seen
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an influx of women
moving into C-suite roles, and that becomes, I think,
you know,
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a greater challenge
for what has kind of been an established culture to a
degree in and around the workplace
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for many years? So we've definitely seen great
progress. That's absolutely true,
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and even in the C-Suite. Still, however,
women are more likely to be in roles like HR
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than to be the CEO
or chief financial officer. So even though we've seen
progress,
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there remain significant differences. What is the perception, then,
of a woman in the workplace,
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especially when
she's more assertive? Well, so if we take a step back and we think about the traditional
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expectations and norms that we have
around— around men and women,
we expect women
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to be more communal
and caring and kind; and we're expecting men to be more assertive,
more agentic.
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And there can be penalties when people step outside
of those assumed norms, those gendered norms.
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And so when women
behave more assertively, that might be perceived
to be less congruent
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with the stereotype, compared to when a man behaves assertively. And so there's some evidence to suggest
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that women experience more
pushback for similar behavior. So when you have a scenario like
that, then, what is the impact back
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onto the employees, whether they
be male or female, of having that component as a
perception in the office?
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Yeah. So— so it could be— it could present this challenge
because women who want to
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move up the corporate ladder
face a challenge because if they're assertive, they may be perceived
to be overly assertive.
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But a man doesn't
face that same penalty. What we've found, and what other scholars
have found is that
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when women advocate for a group— so for my team, for my
division, for my area— when women advocate for others,
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this sort of "we" or "us"
advocacy, it's now very consistent
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with that gendered norm.
So we're expecting— sort of like, think of that mama bear.
We're expecting
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an assertive woman attorney, or if you think about, say,
the U.S. Government, we've had women Secretaries
of State for many years.
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Think about Madeleine
Albright, for example, or Condoleezza Rice. Like, for many years,
we've had women who have been
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Secretary of State assertively
advocating for others, for the country, in this case.
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But how can a woman be assertive and still garner the respect
that she probably deserves?
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Well, so there's a— there's a bind, and I think this is
one of the challenges women face.
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So— so I think we've seen many
changes. I mean, If we think about
the last 60, 70 years,
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we've seen dramatic
changes. And even here, for example, at Wharton, our MBA class
becoming, you know, really
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really close to a 50/50 split in terms of gender in our
MBA classes. I think that reflects incredible progress
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and incredible
change from where we were before, when classes were exclusively
or predominantly men.
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We've seen the same thing happen in
executive positions, though not to the 50/50 level. I mean, so,
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things remain
in some areas like computer science and finance, the— the gender inequality
remains quite big,
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and I think in those cases in particular, women face a challenge
in being assertive,
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without being perceived to
have violated some gendered expectation. So going back to something you said
a moment ago, it seems like
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that component of advocating for others
within your group, within your sector, is a very important
component in terms of
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somewhat of a normalization of the
perception of a female leader in a— in a company,
in a sector.
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Well, yeah, what— what others have found is
that basically when women are very assertive in advocating for their
group --
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as opposed to for them individually— but advocating for the group,
when they frame it that way,
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that's perceived very
positively. In fact, they're— people are
expecting that.
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It's— it's congruent. And so there is a path,
there is a lane for women to be very assertive
and still consistent
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with that sort of stereotype in a way that does not cause them
blowback for— for being assertive.
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But then I would think the
individual's mindset and kind of work style, lifestyle
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probably ends up
playing a factor in this, as well, because no two individuals
are probably the same in terms of
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reacting to all of
these dynamics. Yeah, so there— there are definitely
individual differences.
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There are industry differences,
there are cultural differences sort of as we go
across different cultures,
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you can see that
the gender equality norms, for example in the Scandinavian countries,
Northern European countries,
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we see much greater
equality there than in some other—
other countries. And I think, you know, these things
are changing, not as fast as they
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ought to be. You know, as somebody with
daughters, I'm very keen to see these things change
faster than they are.
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Yeah, that was going to be my next
question, is realistically, are we looking at something that you think
can shift over time?
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Or is that some of that
historical mindset and bias kind of ground into what we deal
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with and probably will be
there for a long time to come? Well, you know, it's a socialization.
I think
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if we think about norms
in our society, you know, you and I
are probably similar in age
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to remember historically how— how we perceived people who are
homosexual, and now how normalized
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that's become. And part of that
comes from changes at the top, when leaders advocate for this.
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We see examples
when laws change. We can see norms change in
some cases pretty quickly.
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So I'm optimistic that we can make
real substantive change. I don't think this is an innate, fixed, or
fast perception.
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This is something
that can change. And it has been changing, but—
but gendered perceptions,
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gendered norms have been
slower to change than we'd like. And I find it interesting because it's
also a time where you will see
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companies, specifically probably
more small to mid-sized firms, that tend to end up being all female
or primarily female. And so I'm
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wondering how a lot of these
historical biases play in when you have a framework of
a company like that?
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It's interesting. Actually we're
seeing women in high school, in college,
be very successful,
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often more successful than
their male counterparts. And so new companies,
emerging companies, there—
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there's now an incredible supply of very
talented women, and in some cases, far more
talented women than— than men.
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Again, depending on the geographic
region, the area. But— but we're seeing,
just as you said, some companies
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completely led by women. Some new companies, some
even sort of completely comprised of women. And—
and I think that's going to
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be, you know, something that
will emerge going forward. I think that will help us, you know,
normalize the idea that,
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you know, anything somebody
from one group can do, another group can do. And, you know, we've been talking
about, you know, gender as sort of
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a binary thing, but—
but we're beginning to to understand that it's really
more of a continuum. - Yeah.
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And so I think— I think
our perceptions around gender are really going through a transition.
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And, you know, there are
fits and starts, and it's not all monotonic, but— but we're moving to a very
different place.
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Somewhat like what we're seeing
with some of the generational shifts and mindsets that we've seen
in recent years, as well, correct?
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I think that that's
exactly right. What's your expectation, then, for
how women should perceive
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the state of the workforce right now, and how to best
handle a lot of these biases and scenarios
when they come upon them?
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Well, yeah. So, I think it's—
it's tricky. So— so the one hand, I
would encourage women to be very
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optimistic and very
enthusiastic about the opportunities and the—
and the way forward.
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On the other hand, there's
no question that there remains gender bias, and women, as well
as minorities from, you know,
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every persuasion are
likely to encounter some bias at some point. What do you do about that?
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And it's tricky because we
can say, "Well, you want to fight everything everywhere," but it's
difficult to fight every battle,
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and there are some times when we've
got to pick and choose what we're taking on
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because there's a cost
as you sort of fight things and allocate your resources, the precious
time and attention that you have,
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to figure out where you can navigate
your career the best. You know, also, I'm optimistic
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these things will change over time, as we see more women leaders succeed and demonstrate that
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anything that was a sort of a
historically male position, women can do just the same.
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Where do you think that cost
ends up showing itself for the most part? Does it show it in
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the career path that a woman
may have? Does it even, to a degree, show
up in the productivity levels that
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companies may or may not have? Well, it certainly can. And there is
some work on what are termed
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"non-promotable tasks." There are things like, you know,
planning an office party
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that come up, and some things
that may fall on some people more
that others— people who are around,
who seem congenial,
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who seem like they'd be a good fit for
doing something. And there are some tasks that
don't help people
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when it comes time for their annual
reviews and their promotions, that, you know, people can spend
time and effort and energy doing.
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And I think fighting some
battles in ways that may upset some people, alienate people, create friction
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or cause people to wonder, "Hey, I know they had conflict. There are always two
sides of a story.
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Who knows how
much blame each side deserves?" And so it could be that the battles
that people take up
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can be costly. And and so I think we have to, you know,
pick and choose where we—
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where we fight, and where we push forward, advancing our careers
and sort of blazing a path for change
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that, you know, frankly
has been slow. Yeah, because the dynamic of having
those battles within the office
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is certainly a totally different
scenario than having them out in the public when you're
discussing topics, and you—
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and you disagree with somebody. I think that's right. So how public
these battles become, you know, that—
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if we think about influence
within an organization, we're trying to gain allies,
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we're trying to advocate
for our ideas and our positions. And so we need other people
to like us.
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We need to be familiar
and likeable, and— and sometimes that means not
arguing over everything.
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And so again, I think that there's a— there are tough choices that,
you know, some people, like
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women or other minorities, might
have to decide that— that represents a cost
that others may not face.
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But that being said, you seem very
positive, very confident that we are on the right path so that we
can have better work scenarios,
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better work locations, where we
don't have to deal with or consider these biases as much as we move
forward,
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as maybe we did in the past. I am. So I mean, I'm very
optimistic about the future.
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There are clearly setbacks, and, you know, in many organizations
and in many institutions,
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some of the most intense pressure gets put on young employees during their childbearing years,
when they
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are likely to be raising young kids. You know, pregnant, raising young kids.
That makes things hard.
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I— you know, one cause for
optimism is I see— you know, men and women—
you know, it isn't 50/50,
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but we're seeing shifting
expectations and norms. And, you know, women— women have been a major part of
the workforce for decades,
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and they're assuming
leadership positions. And we are seeing real
change. Is it—
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is it all going in one
direction? No, there are definitely
setbacks, but— but I'm optimistic that
things are changing,
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and that we will—
we will, you know, in our lifetime,
see things get better. You know, at the rate of
change that we're seeing,
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it's not going to be solved, but—
but things are getting better. Maurice, thanks very much
for your time today. All the best.
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Thank you. Thanks for having me. You got it. Maurice Schweitzer,
who is a Professor of
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Operations, Information, and Decisions
here at the Wharton School. Thank you for listening to
The Ripple Effect.
00:18:30
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