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Our guest today is Elena Litkinabotello.
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She's a partner at GHS Smart and we're
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going to talk to her about leadership.
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Elena, thank you so much for joining us
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at knowledge at Wharton today. Thank
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you, Mico. Thanks for having me here. Uh
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before we talk about your research uh on
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the CEO genome project about which I
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want to hear everything. Uh how did you
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get interested in leadership?
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Oh gosh.
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Um so I was 14 years old. Um and I just
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noticed that uh my lots of people around
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me were coming to me for advice and that
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was my first epiphany that really what I
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love doing in my life is helping people
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helping be people be successful at
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whatever they do. Uh and then I had to
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send money back home. So I became an
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accountant when I came to the US and
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then I went to Wharton. And so of course
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with Wharton you want to do something
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really worthy with your time. So I went
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to Mckenzian company. Uh and then I
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realized that you know while I've
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changed kind of what I really passionate
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about hasn't changed since I was 14
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which is my best moments at McKenzie.
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We're really sitting across like we're
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sitting here from anybody. It didn't
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matter if they were CEO or anybody in
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the organization just feeling like in
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some way that conversation helped them
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be more successful. And so that brought
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me to GHS smart where you know we're
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really blessed to have a unique job that
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I never knew existed actually until I
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joined the firm. Um which is all we do
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is we help leaders be more successful.
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Uh and then as I kind of went on that
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journey, uh it became pretty clear that
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um while leadership overall is a really
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big topic, there are a couple
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of big pivot points or big pivot topics
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within that topic that really kind of if
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you can get those decisions right, a lot
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of things flow from that, which is how
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we got to the CEO genome. So let's talk
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a little bit about the CEO genome
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project. what are those couple of pivot
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points that you mentioned and what was
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your objective and what was your purpose
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in in doing what you did? Yeah, you
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know, so as a firm we've been helping
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CEOs and helping boards and investors
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select CEOs since
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1995 and so we've always been kind of
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behind the scenes helping our clients
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make that decision. Um what really
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shocked me as
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I I I gradually had this awareness built
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in me that when I look at the pages of
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you know Wall Street Journal or you know
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Forbes or any any publication out there
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and then I really think about who I
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spend my time with counseling and
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advising CEOs and boards. I realized
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that boy, you know, the CEO that stares
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at you from the front pages of our, you
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know, publications or very wellrespected
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publications and CEOs I get to see up
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close and personal are just two very
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different pictures. And coming from a
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family of mathematicians, whenever
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something is unsettling, you know, I
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figure, well, we need to get some good
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data around this. Uh, and so that's how
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CEO genome project was born. It was
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really a desire to say, well, let's look
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behind the scenes. Let's really
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understand what drives performance. What
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do successful CEOs look like up close
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and personal? and do that not using
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anecdote or not over relying on any kind
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of particular um empirical experience
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but really digging into the data and
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research. And what did the data show? So
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the data was fascinating. Uh we embarked
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on the research. We weren't fishing for
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any particular hypothesis to prove or
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disprove it. Uh and so we were really
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open-minded to see what we find and we
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applied a multitude of analytical
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approaches. Um and what we found in
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terms of what didn't matter frankly
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surprised us as much as what we found of
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what didn't matter. So for example, you
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know, the one kind of big point that
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stared us in the face is that the this
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kind of stereotypical larger than-l life
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charismatic CEO who is, you know, never
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makes mistakes and is probably the
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smartest person in the room and, you
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know, rides in and out on a white horse
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with, you know, perfect unblenmished
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record really only exists in kind of
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urban legend, right? And that, you know,
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I've since then come to realize that
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really the only perfect CEOs I know are
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the ones who I don't know. and that any
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CEO, no matter how lustrious, no matter
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how successful, when you look back and
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in hindsight, they've all come into the
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role not prepared. So that's one thing
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we've learned is whenever we advise the
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board, we've we yet to find a board that
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feels that, you know, this individual is
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a slam dunk. It's a tough decision
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deciding who will get the role. So they
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look imperfect getting into the role.
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They look imperfect for much of the
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role. uh and very few uh kind of uh
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aspects of this you know big uh public
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stereotype that we have proved that to
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matter. So things for example, you know,
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if you looked at the publicly available
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bios of Fortune 500 CEOs, you've
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probably seen some research out there is
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gosh, if you didn't go to the right
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preschool, let alone the light right
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university, you're doomed. You're doomed
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to failure. Well, it's interesting
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because in our data set, we have the
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luxury of looking well beyond Fortune
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500. The companies in our data set, it's
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over 2,000 CEOs and over 18,000
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executives that we've assessed. And it's
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it includes folks anywhere from Fortune
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100 companies to hundred million dollar
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companies or 100 person dollar person
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company. And so what we found is
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actually in our data set only 7% of the
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executives um had Ivy League college
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education. 8% of the executives didn't
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graduate from college at all and in
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final analysis it didn't actually their
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their educational pedigree didn't really
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impact their performance. Wh why why is
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that? Wh what's what's your explanation?
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Well, you know, I think so kind of our
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philosophy as a firm is that it's really
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all about the fit to the role. So, it's
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not so much about people don't walk
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around as, you know, I'm sure you've
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heard this term of, you know, he's just
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a great general athlete, right? In
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practicality, whether or not someone
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will succeed in a specific situation
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depends on the context. It depends on
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how well their skill sets are matched to
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the what the job really requires, much
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more so than kind of on this theoretical
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set of uh, you know, perfection
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competencies, if you will, that that you
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might imagine. Um, the other big
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overarching theme that really stared us
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in the face when we dug into the data is
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that it's really much more about what
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you do and what your behaviors are and
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things that you skills and abilities
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that you develop in your life as opposed
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to traits that you happen to be born in
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into either traits or access right
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because to a large degree as much as you
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know we'd like to believe that uh great
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education is available to everyone
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having an undergraduate degree I from an
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Ivy League tool is as much a signal of
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access as it is the signal of lots of
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other things. Right? And so what we
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found that's just one example of
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findings, but other findings in the
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study is that yes, it helps to have a
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head start in some areas, but at the end
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of the day, what really matters is kind
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of what you do with what you where you
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given. So let's let let's drill a little
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deeper into those behaviors. And uh what
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I found interesting about your study is
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that you identified four specific
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behaviors that the CEOs who are
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successful do differently than those who
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may seem successful on the surface but
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eventually are not that successful.
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Could we talk one after the other about
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those four behavioral uh uh qualities uh
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and and and see how they make a
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difference? The first one if I remember
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right was that you found that the CEOs
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are very decisive. Exactly. Exactly.
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Tell us a little bit more about that. So
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what surprised us there right is we
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expected that we looked at quality of
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decision-m right and we expected that
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cos just make better decisions right by
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the time they get to the top and when
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they get selected it must be that they
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just have this uncanny insight that the
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rest of us don't share. What we were
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shocked to find out is that decisiveness
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does in fact relate to performance. Um,
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but it's actually more frequent that
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CEOs stand out for the speed of their
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decision-m, not simply the quality. Um,
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and so what was interesting, you know,
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just recently, you may have seen Jeff
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Bezos um, shared his shareholder letter.
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His shareholder letter could be kind of
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a primer on all of the four CEO
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behaviors. And on decision-m, he
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specifically talks about the fact that
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decision-m is quality times velocity.
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And that he calls them day two
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companies, companies that, you know,
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probably have been and still are very
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successful. but ultimately are not as
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dynamic, are not moving forward and not
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shaping the industries where they're in.
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Um he talks about those day two
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companies as being making high quality
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decisions but too slowly and he sets his
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aspiration for Amazon to always remain a
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day one company or being a disruptor if
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you will, right? As a company that makes
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good decisions and makes them very
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quickly. And so what what we find is um
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as you look at the executives even
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coming up through the ranks, you could
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see folks differentiate themselves on
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decisiveness at different stages in
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their career and CEOs stand out for
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being willing to make a decision. I
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wonder if you think there are any
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exceptions to that and I'll I'll tell
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you why I'm asking that. Uh I remember
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this is maybe about 20 years ago. I
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remember interviewing the CEO of a very
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large multinational consulting firm and
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I was talking to him about how he makes
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decisions and his response was that
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sometimes he makes decisions quickly and
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at other times he just doesn't make
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decisions for a very very long time. and
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and for the second category of decisions
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very often just by not making the
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decision the need to make the decision
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goes away. Did you find that in your
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study as well? Yeah, m it's really it's
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it's a great uh build on this behavior
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topic. Yes. So what we find is that um
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and
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look if the results of this study were
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published to CEOs only then the message
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probably would be number one think about
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which decisions shouldn't even land on
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your desk. So very successful CEOs are
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very careful. Um a lot of them will
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share that look in a given year I'll
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make three to four big decisions right
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and so the first question would be make
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sure that you don't have too many
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decisions because something's got to be
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wrong with your team if there are too
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many decisions that you feel you're the
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only right person to make. So that would
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be one and the second insights for CEOs
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only would be that kind of be thoughtful
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about applying the right time to make a
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decision the right kind of thoroughess
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and thoughtfulness to a decision at
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hand. Right? Depending on the type of
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decision, certainly if you're betting
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the company, right? Right. You will be
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really thoughtful.
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Um this study is really aimed to be
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helpful to a really broad audience
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regardless of their stage in their
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career. And this is where what we really
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focused on is decisiveness. Simply
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because when we look at what separates
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those that actually get into the CEO's
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shoes and become successful from those
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who could look like on the face of it,
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they may have all the same capabilities,
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it tends to be the speed that's the
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gating factor. So if that if that makes
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sense. Yeah. No, that that's that's
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really interesting. Um, thank you for
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So, when in doubt, I would say for most
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of us, when in doubt, if you sense and
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if you have a sense in your gut that you
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kind of know the right way to go, that's
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probably the right the the right answer.
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Now, if you're a CEO, CEOs do tend to be
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more decisive. So, in that case, maybe
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it it is very um very prudent to be
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thoughtful and make sure you're getting
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getting different points of view. Great.
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Thank thank you for clarifying that.
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That's that sounds really very very
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interesting. Uh the second trait that
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you talked about was that they are
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relentlessly reliable. Uh that explain
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what you why does that matter so much?
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So reliability um caused all sorts of
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debate on our research team. Uh mainly
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because it's um you know all of these
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behaviors seem pretty obvious.
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Reliability was you kind of annoyingly
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obvious, right? It was, you know, plain
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as milk toast and and it was, you know,
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we found ourselves resisting even
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putting it there out there because it
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was so basic. And yet reliability turned
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out to be have a very significant as a
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statistical significance for
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performance. And actually, of the four
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behaviors, reliability is the only one
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that's statistically associated with
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greater likelihood of getting hired. So,
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demonstrating reliability leads you to
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be more likely to get into the job uh as
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well as to perform well in it.
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How can leaders learn to be more
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reliable? Right? Great question and
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actually there I'll share an anecdote if
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I may. So uh in addition to the article
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because we've got you know great
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reception for the article lots of folks
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wanted you know found this really
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useful. So on our website uh
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ceogenome.com we actually have a self-
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assessment on these behaviors and so we
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had 4,000 folks of all walks of life
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curious enough to see how they stack up
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against CEOs and against the peer group.
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So they took the assessment and among
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those was, you know, one individual who
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is a founder and a CEO of a major major
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company, one of the most successful in
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his industry. He took the test and he
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called one of my partners that's been
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working with him and said, um, you know,
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this is great and you know, I've
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excelled on these following areas, but
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it looks like I need to improve on my
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reliability and let's get working at it.
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And so that caused a really good
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conversation because clearly even
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somebody who's been tremendously
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successful who is among the absolute
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best in his field had a really
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fundamental behavior that he felt he
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wanted to improve upon. Now also knowing
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that individual uh probably getting
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anything less than 100 would have been
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an insult to him. So he which much much
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like many of the Wharton graduates I'm
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sure. And so what reliability really
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comes down to and if you had to ask
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yourself, well geez, all of these sound
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great, but how do I actually learn? Um
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what what we think about when we think
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about reliability is really three
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things. Number one is the mindset.
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Number two is the people and number
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three is the kind of the processes and
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the cadence and the drum beat of the
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company. The good news is that really of
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these three things, there's only one
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that the CEO has to carry in his own
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brain, right? Uh, and that what we find
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with CEOs who are highly reliable is
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that they want to be counted on. It's
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not that they're willing to take
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responsibility when they see things kind
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of going off course or when they see an
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opportunities in front of them. They
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kind of almost have a desperate hunger
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to be counted on and actually pull
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things together. And interestingly, it
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shows up pretty early in life sometimes.
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So, you know, one example, I was uh
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assessing a CEO candidate for a board
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and he shared a story from when he was
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16 years old and he was living in
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California. His parents left him on the
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farm in California alone and a fire
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broke out as it happens in California.
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And so, I don't know if you remember
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yourself at 16, if you try to imagine
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the course of action you would take if
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you're kind of, you know, under a
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threat, right? A pretty physical threat.
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So, what he did is he led the horses out
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of the barn. Then he took care of the
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chickens and loaded them in the truck.
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And then he did a bunch of other things
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that were kind of aimed to minimize
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damage. Then he got into the pickup
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truck, drove away 100 miles, and then he
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called his parents.
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When I think about myself in that
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situation, I probably I I'm hoping back
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in 16 I would have had the presence to
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call 911 before my mom, but it would be
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a toss up, right? And so it's just one
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of those examples where this and you
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know that mindset of accountability and
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if you know if we ask ourselves think
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about kind of the most reliable people
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in your life they don't need to be
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brilliant leaders but we all know who
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they are and so that has to come from
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the CEO because that sets the tone for
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the whole organization. But for those of
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us who are disorganized and you know
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don't think of ourselves as terrific
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quote unquote
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managers there are a lot of other pieces
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of reliability that you don't need to do
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yourself as a CEO. And in fact, so those
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are the other two pieces. You've got to
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surround yourself with people that have
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complimentary skill sets and you got to
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let them do their job, right? Um you
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have to let them build the reliability
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into the company and be willing to kind
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of be part of that reliability. And then
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the rest of it is processes, routines,
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and the cadences. Um kind of a lot of
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reliable companies feel a little bit
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more like a marching jazz band, marching
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marching uh band, if you will, than you
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know uh um improvisation of talented
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musicians. What what did you learn about
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the connection between reliability and
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trust? That's a great great great
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question. Yes, the answer is absolutely.
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Uh trust is one of the reasons why
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reliability is so important in a leader
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and those two pieces go hand in hand.
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Yes, absolutely. Here's another
00:16:21
reliability hack that actually anybody
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can use. So, if you were interested in
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uh improving your reliability, here's
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something that's really simple. What we
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also found when we looked at the CEOs up
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close and personal, the cos who are
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regarded and viewed as highly reliable
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is that they're masters at setting
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expectations.
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And so reliability doesn't start when
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you start executing. Reliability
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actually starts when you walk in and you
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understand what everybody expects of you
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and you align your stakeholders towards
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expectations that are realistic given
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what the situation presents you with.
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That that's a that's a great point. I'm
00:16:54
very glad you mentioned that. So you
00:16:55
have an opportunity to be to set the
00:16:57
stage for reliability very very early in
00:16:59
any undertaking you take on. So that
00:17:01
actually leads to a very logical uh
00:17:03
transition to the third attribute you
00:17:05
found which is that uh people who are
00:17:08
reliable also are great at managing
00:17:10
relationships. In fact you call them
00:17:12
masters at relationships. How does that
00:17:14
factor into the success of CEOs?
00:17:17
Absolutely. Well so being a CEO of being
00:17:21
a leader of any kind is a team sport
00:17:23
right? you're only a leader if you can
00:17:25
get others to follow and you know bring
00:17:28
the whole business or the whole uh
00:17:30
initiative that you're leading to
00:17:32
success, right? And so what we found
00:17:34
that was really interesting is how
00:17:36
successful CEOs relate if you will um
00:17:40
was was there was actually really
00:17:42
something special in it and what they do
00:17:43
kind of the best analogy that I can
00:17:45
offer is that of an orchestra conductor.
00:17:48
Um, and what I'm told, so I'm not a
00:17:50
musician myself, but what I'm told is
00:17:52
that a good orchestra conductor, number
00:17:54
one, they obviously understand the
00:17:56
score. They understand the intention and
00:17:57
they have a point of view and a vision
00:17:59
for how they want to interpret the
00:18:01
music. Number two, they really have a
00:18:04
keen understanding of the musical
00:18:05
instruments and the participants in the
00:18:07
orchestra both in terms of what their
00:18:09
role is in that score and performing
00:18:12
that to life, bringing that to life and
00:18:13
also what motivates them, you know, how
00:18:15
you know they will know that the first
00:18:17
vi violin had that you know her cat died
00:18:20
that day and so while it may sound you
00:18:23
know light-hearted, it's actually a
00:18:25
really big deal for her. And so they're
00:18:27
really tuned in to the vision of what
00:18:29
they're trying to bring to life and
00:18:30
they're really tuned in to each
00:18:31
individual who is sitting around there
00:18:34
and creating the music. And then when
00:18:36
all of that comes together, the good
00:18:39
conductor, all of his engagement with
00:18:41
the um with the instruments, with his
00:18:44
performers, with his musicians, who
00:18:46
often may be more talented musicians
00:18:48
than he or she is, is really all in
00:18:50
service of that vision. It's all in
00:18:52
service of producing a piece of music
00:18:54
that nobody in that room individually
00:18:55
could have produced on their own. And so
00:18:57
that's what we call relate for impact.
00:19:00
So it's easy to describe what it's not.
00:19:03
What it's not is it's not relating for
00:19:04
affinity, meaning I'm here to be liked.
00:19:07
I'm here to be beloved by the musician
00:19:10
or by the audience because that's much
00:19:12
easier actually. It's also not I'm not
00:19:15
here to, you know, hammer and beat beat
00:19:17
the living hell out of my out of my
00:19:20
musicians because I know they won't
00:19:21
perform the best piece of music. And so
00:19:24
CEOs who are successful at engaging for
00:19:26
impact always hold in mind kind of the
00:19:28
purpose of what they're here for and
00:19:30
tune in to their stakeholders to deliver
00:19:32
that purpose. How do they manage that
00:19:34
balance though between those two
00:19:36
extremes that you just described?
00:19:39
You know, it's it's a really great
00:19:40
question. So I think it's for some it's
00:19:43
comes more naturally than for others. I
00:19:45
find that they are um they do two things
00:19:49
particularly well when for folks kind of
00:19:51
that always work at it right is one
00:19:53
again it's back to clarity of purpose
00:19:55
and clarity of intent. Uh and it doesn't
00:19:57
need to be purpose with a big P right
00:19:59
there's a lot of dialogue around kind of
00:20:00
the high-minded purpose. The purpose
00:20:02
could be as simple as you know in this
00:20:03
business relationship here's what our
00:20:05
intent is but they're really clear about
00:20:06
what that is. And number two is they're
00:20:08
voracious feedback consumers. So,
00:20:10
they're constantly watching to see the
00:20:12
feedback that the audience gives them,
00:20:13
the feedback that they get from their
00:20:15
musicians, and they're constantly
00:20:16
evolving and responding. Um, one of the
00:20:18
CEOs that that we've worked with, uh,
00:20:20
Tom Monahan. Tom, uh, led successfully a
00:20:23
company called Corporate Executive
00:20:24
Board, grew to a billion dollars and
00:20:27
recently sold it to Gardner. And Tom had
00:20:29
a great way to frame a job of a CEO. And
00:20:32
he said, "Look, you know, I've got three
00:20:33
groups of stakeholders, uh, my
00:20:35
shareholders, my customers, and my
00:20:37
employees.
00:20:39
And if I were to really fully satisfy
00:20:41
either one of them, we'd be bankrupt.
00:20:44
And so as a CEO, my job is to keep them
00:20:46
all constructively dissatisfied in the
00:20:49
name of making the enterprise successful
00:20:51
so that the enterprise can deliver to
00:20:52
them all. What does he mean by
00:20:54
constructively dissatisfied? Isn't that
00:20:57
interesting? Yeah. Yeah. So I found that
00:20:58
fascinating kind of how he framed it
00:21:00
that he didn't say my job is to satisfy
00:21:01
all of them. my job is to keep them all
00:21:03
constructively dissatisfied so I can
00:21:05
bring the whole enterprise forward
00:21:06
successfully and then deliver for all of
00:21:08
them right and I think it's really that
00:21:10
it's that he's not thinking or
00:21:12
successful CEO is not thinking about how
00:21:14
do I please my audience they truly think
00:21:17
about how do I take whatever the cause
00:21:19
may be and again you don't need to be
00:21:20
CEO the cause could be having a good
00:21:22
family or cause could be you know in
00:21:24
this particular initiative that you're
00:21:26
given and how do I bring everybody
00:21:27
forward towards that cause even if at
00:21:29
times they're not going to be happy with
00:21:31
what it feels like dayto-day So I'm I'm
00:21:33
glad you mentioned that because I want
00:21:34
to come back to that after we talk about
00:21:36
the fourth attribute and that is uh they
00:21:39
are fast
00:21:40
learners right they adapt very quickly
00:21:43
to changing circumstances why why and
00:21:46
how is that uh important
00:21:49
so I think if there's any behavior that
00:21:53
is growing in its importance and is
00:21:55
getting the kind of the most air time if
00:21:57
you will in the boardroom these days
00:21:59
it's this
00:22:00
adaptability you know you write a lot
00:22:02
about innovation knowledge at Bordon has
00:22:04
a lot of kind of uh knowledge in that
00:22:06
area. I don't know a single board of a
00:22:09
company or a single set of investors
00:22:10
that aren't talking about how the world
00:22:12
is speeding up, how there's a greater
00:22:14
degree of uncertainty in the world and
00:22:16
how important it is in that uncertainty
00:22:18
environment and environment of change
00:22:20
and constant surprises, right? You don't
00:22:23
have to kind of go too far for those to
00:22:26
be able to still position the business
00:22:27
for success and to remain vibrant and
00:22:29
and viable. So adaptability is on the
00:22:31
rise as a as a key CEO behavior. Now you
00:22:34
you did the study over a really long
00:22:37
period of time. Uh and I'm sure it was
00:22:39
pretty global in its in its character.
00:22:42
Uh were there any cultural factors that
00:22:45
that played into the way in which these
00:22:47
behaviors played out? So Mul yes so we
00:22:50
would love to do kind of additional
00:22:51
explorations of that factor and we're
00:22:54
still the research is still developing.
00:22:57
uh 15% of our data set are CEOs of
00:22:59
companies that are not US companies. A
00:23:02
greater percentage of the data are CEOs
00:23:03
who are not US-born CEOs. And so uh
00:23:06
there's certainly representation and I
00:23:08
think we have an opportunity to um to
00:23:11
dig into it deeper and uh and explore it
00:23:13
further. Well, I was the specific point
00:23:16
that I was thinking about is I wonder if
00:23:19
your data showed whether some cultures
00:23:22
are more relationship oriented and
00:23:24
others are more contraoriented.
00:23:26
Absolutely. Because I see that conflict
00:23:28
in in in
00:23:30
uh leadership roles all the time where
00:23:32
some some some people will change a
00:23:35
contract if it preserves a key
00:23:36
relationship whereas others will let a
00:23:39
relationship go if it doesn't stick to
00:23:42
the contract. Exactly. Uh h how did you
00:23:44
navigate this divide? Mul I think that's
00:23:47
a brilliant brilliant call out. Yes. So
00:23:49
if I had a hypothesis, right, I would
00:23:51
say that these behaviors hold across
00:23:53
cultures, but what great looks like will
00:23:56
probably be very cultural. So I'll give
00:23:58
you one example that's very simple and
00:24:00
close to home. So in uh 1998, I was uh
00:24:03
graduate I was um between my first and
00:24:05
second year at Wharton and I went to do
00:24:07
half of my internship was at BCG in
00:24:09
London and the other half was going to
00:24:10
be in Russia working for a private
00:24:12
equity fund. And I was very conscious
00:24:14
that when I go to Russia, I shouldn't be
00:24:16
smiling too much because in Russia,
00:24:18
people smile for two reasons. They're
00:24:19
either flirting or something is funny or
00:24:21
if not, then you're an idiot basically.
00:24:23
Whereas in the US, the social message
00:24:25
you're conveying conveying by smiling is
00:24:27
just that I'm okay, you're okay. We're
00:24:29
enjoying our conversation and we're
00:24:30
trustworthy partners, right? It's part
00:24:32
of social lubricant, if you will. And so
00:24:34
this is a very trivial example, but just
00:24:36
goes to to your broader point around
00:24:38
what great looks like could be very
00:24:40
cultural. Also the value that a culture
00:24:42
places on a behavior um will be really
00:24:44
different. I think in our culture we
00:24:46
really uh adaptability again is a
00:24:48
behavior that we really value. We're a
00:24:50
country of you know many of us are first
00:24:51
generation immigrants or if not have
00:24:53
immigrant roots right it's adapt or die
00:24:56
often in that case right but in more
00:24:58
established place um uh countries or
00:25:01
countries that have kind of roots with a
00:25:02
more established population reliability
00:25:04
might be that much more important um so
00:25:06
I think this is actually definitely uh a
00:25:09
very fertile area for further
00:25:10
exploration
00:25:12
uh just the last couple of questions u
00:25:15
so you worked on this uh uh CEO genome
00:25:18
study for a decade or more. Uh, of all
00:25:22
the leaders that you encountered,
00:25:25
did any one person sort of stick in your
00:25:28
mind as the sort of the the top person?
00:25:32
Oh gosh. Uh I I know it may be hard to
00:25:35
identify just one, but if I were to ask
00:25:38
you, you know, just sort of push you a
00:25:41
little bit and say, tell me who who who
00:25:44
struck you most deeply as as the most
00:25:47
impressive leader you encountered, who
00:25:49
who embodied some of the things that you
00:25:51
found in your study. Who would that be
00:25:53
and why? Gosh, you know, it's a it it's
00:25:57
a good question. I tend to think of it
00:25:59
almost by behavior. So as we're
00:26:01
developing so a lot of this research
00:26:03
will feed into a book that we'll have
00:26:05
coming out next year and so uh you know
00:26:08
first part of the book is all about
00:26:09
these behaviors and every behavior we
00:26:11
kind of we think of a handful of CEOs
00:26:13
and we pushed ourselves to say okay well
00:26:15
the data is nice but who really embodies
00:26:17
that behavior and so in each individual
00:26:21
behavior we have kind of our masters or
00:26:24
our black belts if you will of these
00:26:26
different behaviors at the same time
00:26:27
I'll tell you you know I've been very
00:26:28
fortunate I feel blessed blessed to have
00:26:30
had an opportunity to be around several
00:26:33
CEOs that I really admire and that have
00:26:35
been very very successful and I'll tell
00:26:37
you none of them are equally good at any
00:26:39
of these four at all of these four right
00:26:42
and and each of them will will be able
00:26:44
to really shine on probably a couple of
00:26:46
them so that's what we're finding in the
00:26:47
data is that um having strength in two
00:26:51
is typically seems to be the sweet spot
00:26:52
and then having awareness around the
00:26:54
others uh I can talk about a CEO here in
00:26:57
town actually that's somebody that uh
00:26:59
you you and your audience may know very
00:27:01
well. So Maline Bell has been leading
00:27:03
CHOP, right? Uh and Meline so I think
00:27:06
what's you know special about her among
00:27:08
many other things uh we often it's very
00:27:10
easy to think when you look at these
00:27:12
behaviors some things seem on the face
00:27:14
of it very mutually exclusive or
00:27:16
contradictory to each other. Well gee if
00:27:18
I'm really decisive and I'm really fast
00:27:20
to move how am I also relating for
00:27:23
impact? Or if I'm really decisive how am
00:27:26
I also adaptable for example? or if I'm
00:27:28
really adaptable, how am I also
00:27:29
reliable? Um, and so I'm always curious
00:27:32
about leaders who seem to combine
00:27:34
behaviors that on the face of it seem to
00:27:36
be hard to combine. And so if you talk
00:27:38
to folks around Meline, um, what you'll
00:27:41
hear is that she's somebody though who
00:27:43
really stands out for her ability to
00:27:45
relate for impact uh, and really build
00:27:47
trust and in the multitude of
00:27:48
stakeholders. uh and at the same time
00:27:50
somebody who's very decisive and
00:27:53
obviously reliability is a core
00:27:55
fundamental organizational capability
00:27:57
for CHOP, right? Because they're saving
00:27:59
kids lives every day and so reliability
00:28:01
is really essential. Um I will tell you
00:28:03
actually something that I do while I I'm
00:28:05
I'm struggling to come up with one CEO
00:28:08
that's a master of all four because I
00:28:10
think we're all masters of different
00:28:11
things. I can tell you one behavior that
00:28:14
if you were to really raise your game on
00:28:17
across all four behaviors, one simple
00:28:20
thing you can do that will help you on
00:28:21
all four. Okay, that'd be useful of
00:28:24
course. And so if you look at kind of
00:28:26
the underlying muscle building, right,
00:28:28
and how do you raise your game at all
00:28:30
four? I think the biggest fertile area
00:28:33
for that is mistakes.
00:28:36
We're so used in business and look even
00:28:38
our research, right? What are we talking
00:28:39
about? We're talking about who are the
00:28:40
most successful CEOs and what comes to
00:28:42
mind is, you know, Olympic list of
00:28:44
accomplishments. The reality is the most
00:28:46
successful CEOs that are really strong
00:28:48
at these behaviors are fantastic at
00:28:50
mining their mistakes for learnings for
00:28:53
themselves and for the organization. And
00:28:55
so if I had to think about kind of a
00:28:57
underutilized asset in business, it's
00:28:59
mistakes and really digging into them
00:29:02
and and figuring out well how do I
00:29:04
become more reliable? Right? Another
00:29:05
point in reliability that's interesting.
00:29:07
every organization I know where
00:29:09
reliability is a matter of life or death
00:29:11
right so we can talk about reliability
00:29:13
chop it's a matter of life or death if
00:29:15
you're in the Navy Seals it's a matter
00:29:17
of life or death all these organizations
00:29:19
are obsessive about mistakes there's a
00:29:21
cult of actually finding these mistakes
00:29:23
so Maline chop introduced a program
00:29:25
called great catch as a way to celebrate
00:29:28
people and and encourage them and open
00:29:30
the doors to the fact that mistake is
00:29:32
not an indictment of perfectionism right
00:29:34
because excellent organizations often
00:29:36
struggle with mistake
00:29:37
because we expect ourselves to be so
00:29:39
perfect, right? And so she found a very
00:29:42
kind of light-hearted in some ways but
00:29:44
really really profound way to say great
00:29:46
catch. It's all of our jobs to it's a
00:29:48
job of all of us to find mistakes. And
00:29:50
so I would kind of encourage all of us
00:29:53
to go on a you know personal great catch
00:29:55
program if you will because I think
00:29:57
that's a route to improving your
00:29:58
behavior on every one of them. That's
00:30:00
that's that's wonderful. Thank you. And
00:30:02
then I have just sort of one last
00:30:03
question that echoes something you
00:30:05
brought up earlier which
00:30:07
is how would the principles that you
00:30:10
have learned be applicable to leaders
00:30:12
who are not CEOs uh people at every
00:30:15
level of society who just want to be
00:30:17
better leaders in their own sphere
00:30:20
whether it's a high school teacher or a
00:30:22
high school principal or you know a
00:30:25
leader of a nonprofit
00:30:27
uh at every level where leadership plays
00:30:30
a role. How could some of your findings
00:30:32
be relevant to them? You know, this is
00:30:34
probably one thing that makes me most
00:30:36
excited about our research. So, it's
00:30:38
exciting to dispel the myths about CEOs
00:30:40
and help boards be better at picking the
00:30:42
right CEOs. It's really exciting to see
00:30:44
that it can actually change lives for
00:30:45
the better. No matter what you do to
00:30:47
your point, whether you happen to be a
00:30:48
principal or if you just want to have a
00:30:51
good family. Um, and what we found is
00:30:53
that um, number one, it's never too
00:30:55
early or too late to apply these
00:30:57
behaviors, right? As I've shared with
00:30:59
you earlier, we have examples of
00:31:01
struggles and examples of real victories
00:31:02
at any stage in one's career, whether
00:31:04
you're really successful CEO or you're
00:31:06
just a kid graduating from high school
00:31:08
or anything in between. Um, and we've
00:31:11
also found tremendous amount of feedback
00:31:14
actually I've gotten since the article
00:31:15
came out about how much these behaviors
00:31:17
have helped individuals just in their
00:31:19
daily lives. Um, and so we're really
00:31:21
encouraged by that. Great. Lena, thank
00:31:23
you so much for speaking with Knowledge
00:31:25
at Wharton today. Thank you for having
00:31:27
me.
00:31:30
For more insight from knowledge at
00:31:32
Wharton, please visit
00:31:33
knowledge.warton.upen.edu.
00:31:35
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