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Our guest today is Elena Litkinabotello. She's a partner at GHS Smart and we're
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going to talk to her about leadership. Elena, thank you so much for joining us at knowledge at Wharton today. Thank
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you, Mico. Thanks for having me here. Uh before we talk about your research uh on
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the CEO genome project about which I want to hear everything. Uh how did you get interested in leadership?
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Oh gosh. Um so I was 14 years old. Um and I just noticed that uh my lots of people around
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me were coming to me for advice and that was my first epiphany that really what I
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love doing in my life is helping people helping be people be successful at whatever they do. Uh and then I had to
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send money back home. So I became an accountant when I came to the US and then I went to Wharton. And so of course
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with Wharton you want to do something really worthy with your time. So I went to Mckenzian company. Uh and then I
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realized that you know while I've changed kind of what I really passionate about hasn't changed since I was 14
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which is my best moments at McKenzie. We're really sitting across like we're
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sitting here from anybody. It didn't matter if they were CEO or anybody in the organization just feeling like in
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some way that conversation helped them be more successful. And so that brought me to GHS smart where you know we're
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really blessed to have a unique job that I never knew existed actually until I joined the firm. Um which is all we do
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is we help leaders be more successful. Uh and then as I kind of went on that journey, uh it became pretty clear that
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um while leadership overall is a really big topic, there are a couple of big pivot points or big pivot topics
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within that topic that really kind of if you can get those decisions right, a lot
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of things flow from that, which is how we got to the CEO genome. So let's talk
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a little bit about the CEO genome project. what are those couple of pivot points that you mentioned and what was
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your objective and what was your purpose in in doing what you did? Yeah, you know, so as a firm we've been helping
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CEOs and helping boards and investors select CEOs since 1995 and so we've always been kind of
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behind the scenes helping our clients make that decision. Um what really shocked me as
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I I I gradually had this awareness built in me that when I look at the pages of you know Wall Street Journal or you know
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Forbes or any any publication out there and then I really think about who I spend my time with counseling and
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advising CEOs and boards. I realized that boy, you know, the CEO that stares at you from the front pages of our, you
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know, publications or very wellrespected publications and CEOs I get to see up close and personal are just two very
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different pictures. And coming from a family of mathematicians, whenever something is unsettling, you know, I
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figure, well, we need to get some good data around this. Uh, and so that's how
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CEO genome project was born. It was really a desire to say, well, let's look
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behind the scenes. Let's really understand what drives performance. What do successful CEOs look like up close
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and personal? and do that not using anecdote or not over relying on any kind of particular um empirical experience
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but really digging into the data and research. And what did the data show? So the data was fascinating. Uh we embarked
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on the research. We weren't fishing for any particular hypothesis to prove or
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disprove it. Uh and so we were really open-minded to see what we find and we applied a multitude of analytical
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approaches. Um and what we found in terms of what didn't matter frankly surprised us as much as what we found of
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what didn't matter. So for example, you know, the one kind of big point that
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stared us in the face is that the this kind of stereotypical larger than-l life charismatic CEO who is, you know, never
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makes mistakes and is probably the smartest person in the room and, you know, rides in and out on a white horse
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with, you know, perfect unblenmished record really only exists in kind of urban legend, right? And that, you know,
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I've since then come to realize that really the only perfect CEOs I know are
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the ones who I don't know. and that any CEO, no matter how lustrious, no matter
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how successful, when you look back and in hindsight, they've all come into the
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role not prepared. So that's one thing we've learned is whenever we advise the
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board, we've we yet to find a board that feels that, you know, this individual is
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a slam dunk. It's a tough decision deciding who will get the role. So they look imperfect getting into the role.
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They look imperfect for much of the role. uh and very few uh kind of uh aspects of this you know big uh public
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stereotype that we have proved that to matter. So things for example, you know, if you looked at the publicly available
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bios of Fortune 500 CEOs, you've probably seen some research out there is gosh, if you didn't go to the right
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preschool, let alone the light right university, you're doomed. You're doomed
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to failure. Well, it's interesting because in our data set, we have the luxury of looking well beyond Fortune
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500. The companies in our data set, it's over 2,000 CEOs and over 18,000 executives that we've assessed. And it's
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it includes folks anywhere from Fortune 100 companies to hundred million dollar companies or 100 person dollar person
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company. And so what we found is actually in our data set only 7% of the executives um had Ivy League college
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education. 8% of the executives didn't graduate from college at all and in final analysis it didn't actually their
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their educational pedigree didn't really impact their performance. Wh why why is
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that? Wh what's what's your explanation? Well, you know, I think so kind of our
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philosophy as a firm is that it's really all about the fit to the role. So, it's
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not so much about people don't walk around as, you know, I'm sure you've
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heard this term of, you know, he's just a great general athlete, right? In practicality, whether or not someone
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will succeed in a specific situation depends on the context. It depends on how well their skill sets are matched to
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the what the job really requires, much more so than kind of on this theoretical set of uh, you know, perfection
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competencies, if you will, that that you might imagine. Um, the other big overarching theme that really stared us
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in the face when we dug into the data is that it's really much more about what
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you do and what your behaviors are and things that you skills and abilities that you develop in your life as opposed
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to traits that you happen to be born in into either traits or access right because to a large degree as much as you
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know we'd like to believe that uh great education is available to everyone having an undergraduate degree I from an
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Ivy League tool is as much a signal of access as it is the signal of lots of other things. Right? And so what we
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found that's just one example of findings, but other findings in the study is that yes, it helps to have a
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head start in some areas, but at the end of the day, what really matters is kind
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of what you do with what you where you given. So let's let let's drill a little
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deeper into those behaviors. And uh what I found interesting about your study is
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that you identified four specific behaviors that the CEOs who are successful do differently than those who
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may seem successful on the surface but eventually are not that successful. Could we talk one after the other about
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those four behavioral uh uh qualities uh and and and see how they make a difference? The first one if I remember
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right was that you found that the CEOs are very decisive. Exactly. Exactly. Tell us a little bit more about that. So
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what surprised us there right is we expected that we looked at quality of decision-m right and we expected that
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cos just make better decisions right by the time they get to the top and when they get selected it must be that they
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just have this uncanny insight that the rest of us don't share. What we were
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shocked to find out is that decisiveness does in fact relate to performance. Um,
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but it's actually more frequent that CEOs stand out for the speed of their decision-m, not simply the quality. Um,
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and so what was interesting, you know, just recently, you may have seen Jeff Bezos um, shared his shareholder letter.
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His shareholder letter could be kind of a primer on all of the four CEO behaviors. And on decision-m, he
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specifically talks about the fact that decision-m is quality times velocity. And that he calls them day two
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companies, companies that, you know, probably have been and still are very successful. but ultimately are not as
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dynamic, are not moving forward and not shaping the industries where they're in.
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Um he talks about those day two companies as being making high quality decisions but too slowly and he sets his
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aspiration for Amazon to always remain a day one company or being a disruptor if
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you will, right? As a company that makes good decisions and makes them very quickly. And so what what we find is um
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as you look at the executives even coming up through the ranks, you could see folks differentiate themselves on
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decisiveness at different stages in their career and CEOs stand out for being willing to make a decision. I
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wonder if you think there are any exceptions to that and I'll I'll tell you why I'm asking that. Uh I remember
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this is maybe about 20 years ago. I remember interviewing the CEO of a very large multinational consulting firm and
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I was talking to him about how he makes decisions and his response was that sometimes he makes decisions quickly and
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at other times he just doesn't make decisions for a very very long time. and
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and for the second category of decisions very often just by not making the decision the need to make the decision
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goes away. Did you find that in your study as well? Yeah, m it's really it's
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it's a great uh build on this behavior topic. Yes. So what we find is that um
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and look if the results of this study were published to CEOs only then the message
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probably would be number one think about which decisions shouldn't even land on
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your desk. So very successful CEOs are very careful. Um a lot of them will share that look in a given year I'll
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make three to four big decisions right and so the first question would be make sure that you don't have too many
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decisions because something's got to be wrong with your team if there are too
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many decisions that you feel you're the only right person to make. So that would
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be one and the second insights for CEOs only would be that kind of be thoughtful
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about applying the right time to make a decision the right kind of thoroughess and thoughtfulness to a decision at
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hand. Right? Depending on the type of decision, certainly if you're betting the company, right? Right. You will be
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really thoughtful. Um this study is really aimed to be helpful to a really broad audience
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regardless of their stage in their career. And this is where what we really focused on is decisiveness. Simply
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because when we look at what separates those that actually get into the CEO's
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shoes and become successful from those who could look like on the face of it, they may have all the same capabilities,
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it tends to be the speed that's the gating factor. So if that if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that that's that's
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really interesting. Um, thank you for So, when in doubt, I would say for most of us, when in doubt, if you sense and
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if you have a sense in your gut that you kind of know the right way to go, that's
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probably the right the the right answer. Now, if you're a CEO, CEOs do tend to be
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more decisive. So, in that case, maybe it it is very um very prudent to be thoughtful and make sure you're getting
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getting different points of view. Great. Thank thank you for clarifying that. That's that sounds really very very
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interesting. Uh the second trait that you talked about was that they are relentlessly reliable. Uh that explain
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what you why does that matter so much? So reliability um caused all sorts of debate on our research team. Uh mainly
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because it's um you know all of these behaviors seem pretty obvious. Reliability was you kind of annoyingly
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obvious, right? It was, you know, plain as milk toast and and it was, you know, we found ourselves resisting even
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putting it there out there because it was so basic. And yet reliability turned out to be have a very significant as a
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statistical significance for performance. And actually, of the four behaviors, reliability is the only one
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that's statistically associated with greater likelihood of getting hired. So,
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demonstrating reliability leads you to be more likely to get into the job uh as well as to perform well in it.
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How can leaders learn to be more reliable? Right? Great question and actually there I'll share an anecdote if
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I may. So uh in addition to the article because we've got you know great reception for the article lots of folks
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wanted you know found this really useful. So on our website uh ceogenome.com we actually have a self-
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assessment on these behaviors and so we had 4,000 folks of all walks of life curious enough to see how they stack up
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against CEOs and against the peer group. So they took the assessment and among those was, you know, one individual who
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is a founder and a CEO of a major major company, one of the most successful in his industry. He took the test and he
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called one of my partners that's been working with him and said, um, you know,
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this is great and you know, I've excelled on these following areas, but it looks like I need to improve on my
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reliability and let's get working at it. And so that caused a really good conversation because clearly even
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somebody who's been tremendously successful who is among the absolute best in his field had a really
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fundamental behavior that he felt he wanted to improve upon. Now also knowing that individual uh probably getting
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anything less than 100 would have been an insult to him. So he which much much like many of the Wharton graduates I'm
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sure. And so what reliability really comes down to and if you had to ask yourself, well geez, all of these sound
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great, but how do I actually learn? Um what what we think about when we think about reliability is really three
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things. Number one is the mindset. Number two is the people and number three is the kind of the processes and
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the cadence and the drum beat of the company. The good news is that really of these three things, there's only one
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that the CEO has to carry in his own brain, right? Uh, and that what we find with CEOs who are highly reliable is
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that they want to be counted on. It's not that they're willing to take responsibility when they see things kind
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of going off course or when they see an opportunities in front of them. They kind of almost have a desperate hunger
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to be counted on and actually pull things together. And interestingly, it shows up pretty early in life sometimes.
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So, you know, one example, I was uh assessing a CEO candidate for a board and he shared a story from when he was
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16 years old and he was living in California. His parents left him on the farm in California alone and a fire
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broke out as it happens in California. And so, I don't know if you remember yourself at 16, if you try to imagine
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the course of action you would take if you're kind of, you know, under a threat, right? A pretty physical threat.
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So, what he did is he led the horses out of the barn. Then he took care of the chickens and loaded them in the truck.
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And then he did a bunch of other things that were kind of aimed to minimize damage. Then he got into the pickup
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truck, drove away 100 miles, and then he called his parents. When I think about myself in that
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situation, I probably I I'm hoping back in 16 I would have had the presence to
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call 911 before my mom, but it would be a toss up, right? And so it's just one
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of those examples where this and you know that mindset of accountability and if you know if we ask ourselves think
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about kind of the most reliable people in your life they don't need to be brilliant leaders but we all know who
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they are and so that has to come from the CEO because that sets the tone for the whole organization. But for those of
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us who are disorganized and you know don't think of ourselves as terrific quote unquote
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managers there are a lot of other pieces of reliability that you don't need to do
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yourself as a CEO. And in fact, so those are the other two pieces. You've got to
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surround yourself with people that have complimentary skill sets and you got to let them do their job, right? Um you
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have to let them build the reliability into the company and be willing to kind of be part of that reliability. And then
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the rest of it is processes, routines, and the cadences. Um kind of a lot of reliable companies feel a little bit
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more like a marching jazz band, marching marching uh band, if you will, than you
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know uh um improvisation of talented musicians. What what did you learn about the connection between reliability and
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trust? That's a great great great question. Yes, the answer is absolutely. Uh trust is one of the reasons why
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reliability is so important in a leader and those two pieces go hand in hand. Yes, absolutely. Here's another
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reliability hack that actually anybody can use. So, if you were interested in uh improving your reliability, here's
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something that's really simple. What we also found when we looked at the CEOs up
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close and personal, the cos who are regarded and viewed as highly reliable is that they're masters at setting
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expectations. And so reliability doesn't start when you start executing. Reliability
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actually starts when you walk in and you understand what everybody expects of you
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and you align your stakeholders towards expectations that are realistic given what the situation presents you with.
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That that's a that's a great point. I'm very glad you mentioned that. So you
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have an opportunity to be to set the stage for reliability very very early in any undertaking you take on. So that
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actually leads to a very logical uh transition to the third attribute you found which is that uh people who are
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reliable also are great at managing relationships. In fact you call them masters at relationships. How does that
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factor into the success of CEOs? Absolutely. Well so being a CEO of being a leader of any kind is a team sport
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right? you're only a leader if you can get others to follow and you know bring
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the whole business or the whole uh initiative that you're leading to success, right? And so what we found
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that was really interesting is how successful CEOs relate if you will um was was there was actually really
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something special in it and what they do kind of the best analogy that I can offer is that of an orchestra conductor.
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Um, and what I'm told, so I'm not a musician myself, but what I'm told is
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that a good orchestra conductor, number one, they obviously understand the score. They understand the intention and
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they have a point of view and a vision for how they want to interpret the music. Number two, they really have a
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keen understanding of the musical instruments and the participants in the orchestra both in terms of what their
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role is in that score and performing that to life, bringing that to life and also what motivates them, you know, how
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you know they will know that the first vi violin had that you know her cat died that day and so while it may sound you
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know light-hearted, it's actually a really big deal for her. And so they're
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really tuned in to the vision of what they're trying to bring to life and they're really tuned in to each
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individual who is sitting around there and creating the music. And then when all of that comes together, the good
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conductor, all of his engagement with the um with the instruments, with his performers, with his musicians, who
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often may be more talented musicians than he or she is, is really all in service of that vision. It's all in
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service of producing a piece of music that nobody in that room individually could have produced on their own. And so
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that's what we call relate for impact. So it's easy to describe what it's not.
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What it's not is it's not relating for affinity, meaning I'm here to be liked.
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I'm here to be beloved by the musician or by the audience because that's much
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easier actually. It's also not I'm not here to, you know, hammer and beat beat
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the living hell out of my out of my musicians because I know they won't perform the best piece of music. And so
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CEOs who are successful at engaging for impact always hold in mind kind of the purpose of what they're here for and
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tune in to their stakeholders to deliver that purpose. How do they manage that balance though between those two
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extremes that you just described? You know, it's it's a really great question. So I think it's for some it's
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comes more naturally than for others. I find that they are um they do two things
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particularly well when for folks kind of that always work at it right is one again it's back to clarity of purpose
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and clarity of intent. Uh and it doesn't need to be purpose with a big P right
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there's a lot of dialogue around kind of the high-minded purpose. The purpose
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could be as simple as you know in this business relationship here's what our
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intent is but they're really clear about what that is. And number two is they're
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voracious feedback consumers. So, they're constantly watching to see the feedback that the audience gives them,
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the feedback that they get from their musicians, and they're constantly evolving and responding. Um, one of the
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CEOs that that we've worked with, uh, Tom Monahan. Tom, uh, led successfully a
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company called Corporate Executive Board, grew to a billion dollars and recently sold it to Gardner. And Tom had
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a great way to frame a job of a CEO. And he said, "Look, you know, I've got three
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groups of stakeholders, uh, my shareholders, my customers, and my employees. And if I were to really fully satisfy
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either one of them, we'd be bankrupt. And so as a CEO, my job is to keep them
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all constructively dissatisfied in the name of making the enterprise successful so that the enterprise can deliver to
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them all. What does he mean by constructively dissatisfied? Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yeah. So I found that
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fascinating kind of how he framed it that he didn't say my job is to satisfy
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all of them. my job is to keep them all constructively dissatisfied so I can bring the whole enterprise forward
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successfully and then deliver for all of them right and I think it's really that
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it's that he's not thinking or successful CEO is not thinking about how do I please my audience they truly think
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about how do I take whatever the cause may be and again you don't need to be
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CEO the cause could be having a good family or cause could be you know in this particular initiative that you're
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given and how do I bring everybody forward towards that cause even if at times they're not going to be happy with
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what it feels like dayto-day So I'm I'm glad you mentioned that because I want
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to come back to that after we talk about the fourth attribute and that is uh they
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are fast learners right they adapt very quickly to changing circumstances why why and
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how is that uh important so I think if there's any behavior that is growing in its importance and is
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getting the kind of the most air time if you will in the boardroom these days it's this
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adaptability you know you write a lot about innovation knowledge at Bordon has a lot of kind of uh knowledge in that
00:22:06
area. I don't know a single board of a company or a single set of investors that aren't talking about how the world
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is speeding up, how there's a greater degree of uncertainty in the world and
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how important it is in that uncertainty environment and environment of change and constant surprises, right? You don't
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have to kind of go too far for those to be able to still position the business for success and to remain vibrant and
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and viable. So adaptability is on the rise as a as a key CEO behavior. Now you you did the study over a really long
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period of time. Uh and I'm sure it was pretty global in its in its character.
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Uh were there any cultural factors that that played into the way in which these behaviors played out? So Mul yes so we
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would love to do kind of additional explorations of that factor and we're still the research is still developing.
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uh 15% of our data set are CEOs of companies that are not US companies. A greater percentage of the data are CEOs
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who are not US-born CEOs. And so uh there's certainly representation and I think we have an opportunity to um to
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dig into it deeper and uh and explore it further. Well, I was the specific point
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that I was thinking about is I wonder if your data showed whether some cultures are more relationship oriented and
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others are more contraoriented. Absolutely. Because I see that conflict in in in
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uh leadership roles all the time where some some some people will change a contract if it preserves a key
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relationship whereas others will let a relationship go if it doesn't stick to
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the contract. Exactly. Uh h how did you navigate this divide? Mul I think that's
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a brilliant brilliant call out. Yes. So if I had a hypothesis, right, I would say that these behaviors hold across
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cultures, but what great looks like will probably be very cultural. So I'll give
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you one example that's very simple and close to home. So in uh 1998, I was uh
00:24:03
graduate I was um between my first and second year at Wharton and I went to do half of my internship was at BCG in
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London and the other half was going to be in Russia working for a private equity fund. And I was very conscious
00:24:14
that when I go to Russia, I shouldn't be smiling too much because in Russia,
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people smile for two reasons. They're either flirting or something is funny or
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if not, then you're an idiot basically. Whereas in the US, the social message
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you're conveying conveying by smiling is just that I'm okay, you're okay. We're
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enjoying our conversation and we're trustworthy partners, right? It's part
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of social lubricant, if you will. And so this is a very trivial example, but just
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goes to to your broader point around what great looks like could be very cultural. Also the value that a culture
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places on a behavior um will be really different. I think in our culture we really uh adaptability again is a
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behavior that we really value. We're a country of you know many of us are first
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generation immigrants or if not have immigrant roots right it's adapt or die
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often in that case right but in more established place um uh countries or countries that have kind of roots with a
00:25:02
more established population reliability might be that much more important um so I think this is actually definitely uh a
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very fertile area for further exploration uh just the last couple of questions u
00:25:15
so you worked on this uh uh CEO genome study for a decade or more. Uh, of all the leaders that you encountered,
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did any one person sort of stick in your mind as the sort of the the top person?
00:25:32
Oh gosh. Uh I I know it may be hard to identify just one, but if I were to ask you, you know, just sort of push you a
00:25:41
little bit and say, tell me who who who struck you most deeply as as the most impressive leader you encountered, who
00:25:49
who embodied some of the things that you found in your study. Who would that be and why? Gosh, you know, it's a it it's
00:25:57
a good question. I tend to think of it almost by behavior. So as we're developing so a lot of this research
00:26:03
will feed into a book that we'll have coming out next year and so uh you know
00:26:08
first part of the book is all about these behaviors and every behavior we kind of we think of a handful of CEOs
00:26:13
and we pushed ourselves to say okay well the data is nice but who really embodies
00:26:17
that behavior and so in each individual behavior we have kind of our masters or our black belts if you will of these
00:26:26
different behaviors at the same time I'll tell you you know I've been very
00:26:28
fortunate I feel blessed blessed to have had an opportunity to be around several
00:26:33
CEOs that I really admire and that have been very very successful and I'll tell
00:26:37
you none of them are equally good at any of these four at all of these four right
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and and each of them will will be able to really shine on probably a couple of them so that's what we're finding in the
00:26:47
data is that um having strength in two is typically seems to be the sweet spot and then having awareness around the
00:26:54
others uh I can talk about a CEO here in town actually that's somebody that uh
00:26:59
you you and your audience may know very well. So Maline Bell has been leading CHOP, right? Uh and Meline so I think
00:27:06
what's you know special about her among many other things uh we often it's very
00:27:10
easy to think when you look at these behaviors some things seem on the face of it very mutually exclusive or
00:27:16
contradictory to each other. Well gee if I'm really decisive and I'm really fast
00:27:20
to move how am I also relating for impact? Or if I'm really decisive how am I also adaptable for example? or if I'm
00:27:28
really adaptable, how am I also reliable? Um, and so I'm always curious about leaders who seem to combine
00:27:34
behaviors that on the face of it seem to be hard to combine. And so if you talk to folks around Meline, um, what you'll
00:27:41
hear is that she's somebody though who really stands out for her ability to relate for impact uh, and really build
00:27:47
trust and in the multitude of stakeholders. uh and at the same time somebody who's very decisive and
00:27:53
obviously reliability is a core fundamental organizational capability for CHOP, right? Because they're saving
00:27:59
kids lives every day and so reliability is really essential. Um I will tell you actually something that I do while I I'm
00:28:05
I'm struggling to come up with one CEO that's a master of all four because I
00:28:10
think we're all masters of different things. I can tell you one behavior that
00:28:14
if you were to really raise your game on across all four behaviors, one simple thing you can do that will help you on
00:28:21
all four. Okay, that'd be useful of course. And so if you look at kind of the underlying muscle building, right,
00:28:28
and how do you raise your game at all four? I think the biggest fertile area for that is mistakes.
00:28:36
We're so used in business and look even our research, right? What are we talking
00:28:39
about? We're talking about who are the most successful CEOs and what comes to
00:28:42
mind is, you know, Olympic list of accomplishments. The reality is the most successful CEOs that are really strong
00:28:48
at these behaviors are fantastic at mining their mistakes for learnings for themselves and for the organization. And
00:28:55
so if I had to think about kind of a underutilized asset in business, it's mistakes and really digging into them
00:29:02
and and figuring out well how do I become more reliable? Right? Another point in reliability that's interesting.
00:29:07
every organization I know where reliability is a matter of life or death right so we can talk about reliability
00:29:13
chop it's a matter of life or death if you're in the Navy Seals it's a matter
00:29:17
of life or death all these organizations are obsessive about mistakes there's a
00:29:21
cult of actually finding these mistakes so Maline chop introduced a program called great catch as a way to celebrate
00:29:28
people and and encourage them and open the doors to the fact that mistake is not an indictment of perfectionism right
00:29:34
because excellent organizations often struggle with mistake because we expect ourselves to be so
00:29:39
perfect, right? And so she found a very kind of light-hearted in some ways but really really profound way to say great
00:29:46
catch. It's all of our jobs to it's a job of all of us to find mistakes. And
00:29:50
so I would kind of encourage all of us to go on a you know personal great catch program if you will because I think
00:29:57
that's a route to improving your behavior on every one of them. That's that's that's wonderful. Thank you. And
00:30:02
then I have just sort of one last question that echoes something you brought up earlier which
00:30:07
is how would the principles that you have learned be applicable to leaders who are not CEOs uh people at every
00:30:15
level of society who just want to be better leaders in their own sphere whether it's a high school teacher or a
00:30:22
high school principal or you know a leader of a nonprofit uh at every level where leadership plays
00:30:30
a role. How could some of your findings be relevant to them? You know, this is probably one thing that makes me most
00:30:36
excited about our research. So, it's exciting to dispel the myths about CEOs
00:30:40
and help boards be better at picking the right CEOs. It's really exciting to see
00:30:44
that it can actually change lives for the better. No matter what you do to your point, whether you happen to be a
00:30:48
principal or if you just want to have a good family. Um, and what we found is that um, number one, it's never too
00:30:55
early or too late to apply these behaviors, right? As I've shared with you earlier, we have examples of
00:31:01
struggles and examples of real victories at any stage in one's career, whether
00:31:04
you're really successful CEO or you're just a kid graduating from high school
00:31:08
or anything in between. Um, and we've also found tremendous amount of feedback
00:31:14
actually I've gotten since the article came out about how much these behaviors
00:31:17
have helped individuals just in their daily lives. Um, and so we're really encouraged by that. Great. Lena, thank
00:31:23
you so much for speaking with Knowledge at Wharton today. Thank you for having me.
00:31:30
For more insight from knowledge at Wharton, please visit knowledge.warton.upen.edu.
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