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Hello and welcome. You're listening to
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Marketing Matters on the Wharton podcast
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network. This is our weekly podcast
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where we analyze the latest in
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advertising, marketing, customer
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behavior, new product launches,
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retailing, branding. I'm Barbara Khan,
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the Patty and JH Baker Professor of
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Marketing, and I'm joined by my co-host,
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Americus Reed, the Whitney M. Young Jr.
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Professor of Marketing and the brand
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identity theorist. Hello, Americus.
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>> Hi, Barbara. So, you know, they call you
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the wizard of the Wharton marketing
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department and uh the reason why they
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call you this is that you wave your
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wisdom wand and magical things happen
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because we just get smarter about very
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specific topics. So, I was thinking
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about this and I was imagining the last
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two thought scenarios that we've been
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sort of discussing, which is what if
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you're the CMO of Cracker Barrel and
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things are going haywire online and you
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got to be able to communicate. You gota
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be able to come up with a strategy to be
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able to understand the right ways to
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persuade people of your particular
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position or let's say you are seuite
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leadership at Disney and you're sort of
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trying to struggle to figure out should
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we bring Kimmel back should we not bring
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him back what's going on in this
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ecosystem you need a strategy Barbara so
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I'm coming to you today to see if we can
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somehow find some insight around
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communication comms how to say the right
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things what to say when how what have
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you got for me today wizard How about
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the author of a book called Think
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Faster, Talk Smarter. Wouldn't that be a
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good solution to that problem, Americas?
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>> Amazing.
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>> So, we're so lucky today to have with us
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the author of that book, Think Faster,
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Talk Smarter, and the host of a podcast
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with the same name, Think Fast, Talk
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Smart, Matt Abrahams. Thank you, Matt,
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so much for being here.
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>> Hi, Matt.
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>> I am thrilled to be with you, America.
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Barbara, I wish you guys had more
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energy. Would you please dial it up a
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little bit?
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>> Yes, we're full of caffeine, sir. That
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might be one of your one of your
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protocols. I don't know. We'll see.
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>> We are so happy to talk to you. Not Not
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only are you a podcast, an author, but
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you also are teach at Stanford Graduate
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School of Business, so you're one of us.
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So, we're really happy to have you with
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us. Can you tell us like a little bit
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about your background, how you managed
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to accumulate all these accolades?
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>> Well, thank you. and and there's nothing
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more wonderful than being faculty at a
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business school. You know that the
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students are amazingly bright. The
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opportunities are fantastic and and I
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love learning. So, it's it's an
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opportunity to learn to teach. Uh you
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know, my background is I I've always
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been passionate about communication. My
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mother was a teacher, an elementary
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school teacher. My father was a lawyer.
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So, words and communication were always
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really important. My father was always,
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"How do we structure this, make this
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clear and concise?" And my mother was,
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"How do we make this engaging and
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interesting?" And so from a very young
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age I was always fascinated by
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communication. Uh with the last name
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Abrahams, I always went first in school.
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So so the my latest work has been on
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what I call spontaneous speaking. How do
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you communicate in the moment when
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you're put on the spot? And my whole
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life has been that way because I always
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knew where I sat. I always knew I was
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going to go first. So I was always put
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on the spot. So I think that that
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interest early in my life and the
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experience I had growing up really had
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me focus on communication. and I was
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fortunate enough to to study it in grad
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school and then I worked in the
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corporate world for over a decade. I ran
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learning and development for companies
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and clearly saw how critical
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communication is to success not just for
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organizations but for individuals within
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those organizations. So I've been
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teaching strategic communication now at
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Stanford's Graduate School of Business
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for this is my 16th year. We just
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started recently and uh I love helping
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students understand how they can hone
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and develop their communication skills.
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You know, I have a couple reactions to
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what you just said. One of them reminded
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me of Malcolm Gladwell's book, I forget
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which book it was, where he talked about
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like whether you were born in the
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beginning of the year or the end of the
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year, you're going to have some
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advantage in school or that's a really
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interesting thing to think about where
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you are in the alphabet because it does
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follow you um throughout your whole
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>> Absolutely.
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>> So much so that that I was I actually
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feel a little offended uh at Stanford's
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business school and you might know her
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given that you're in marketing. Jennifer
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Oer is aa and and so it is it is one of
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the very first times in my life where I
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have not been first and so uh well I I
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adore Jennifer and her work is
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phenomenal. It it is funny that I
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>> America's thinking fast.
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>> Yeah, exactly.
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>> I didn't even hear the question before
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you came up with the answer.
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>> No doubt. This is awesome. Very very
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cool. Yes. But, you know, this idea of
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of communication and the way America has
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put it out there with like CEOs
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seriously having to be on the spot to
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answer really quickly, what are your big
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takeaways, your big ahas on that?
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>> Absolutely. So, first and foremost, this
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is a skill that needs to be worked on.
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Many people feel I'm either born with it
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or I'm not. And that's not true. It is a
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skill you can learn and you develop. You
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can develop it. I always use the analogy
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of athletes. If you think about it,
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athletes in whatever their sport is,
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they are being spontaneous. They are
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responding to what's demanded in the
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moment, but they do a lot of drills and
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practice. So, we have to practice for
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this. That's number one. When it comes
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to doing that work, we have to take a
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two-pronged approach. It's about mindset
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and messaging.
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>> And with mindset, there are a lot of
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things we have to do. We have to get
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present. We have to listen deeply. We
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have to remember that these situations
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are actually opportunities, not threats
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and challenges. So, mindset is really
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important. And you have colleagues, I
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have colleagues that study mindset that
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really share how important the way you
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approach life, but particularly
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communication matters, but also how we
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craft our messages. Messages need
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structure. Structure is a logical
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connection of ideas. And if you train
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yourself on some of these structures,
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they actually give you road mapaps to
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help. We all know structure. If you've
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ever seen a television ad, you've seen
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the structure problem, solution,
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benefit, issue, challenge in the world.
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the product or service helps remedy it
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and we benefit. If you can get the right
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mindset, develop the right structures,
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it becomes much easier to manage in the
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moment.
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>> Let me let me pick apart a little bit of
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what you said because um and let's start
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with the first part before we get to the
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structure. One of the things that struck
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me that you said and it sounds like kind
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of obvious but it's not my experience
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that people do do this
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>> which is you said you got to do active
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listening. Um, I find in a lot of these
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conversations, especially with people
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who really know them, their stuff,
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they're real experts, that they're not
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really listening. They're waiting.
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They're waiting until you're done so
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they can say what comes next. Yes.
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>> And one of the best advice I ever got
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for teaching really and you know when
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you're a young teacher or you're in
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there like you're so anxious to prove
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yourself that I think this idea of
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active listening. I mean right there in
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my opinion I don't know if you agree
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with me on this but that's like an
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incredibly important piece of advice
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that I don't think people necessarily
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hear.
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>> 100% listening. You know as somebody who
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teaches communication people are often
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surprised that I spend a lot of time
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talking about listening. Most of us see
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communication as putting information
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out, broadcasting. But listening is
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critical, especially in spontaneous
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situations because if you don't listen
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astutely, you might miss what's really
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being asked. If it's Q&A, what's really
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needed, if it's feedback, I have a
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situation where in my life, this
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actually I screwed it up. So we I came
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out of a meeting with a colleague. The
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meeting did not go well. And the
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colleague turned to me and said, "Hey,
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what do you think? What what's what do
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you think? How'd we do?" I immediately
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heard feedback. What I missed was that
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he came out of the room the back door.
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He was speaking quietly, looking down.
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He did not want feedback. He wanted
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support. And when I itemized all the
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things we did wrong, I damaged the
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relationship.
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>> And you're exactly right. Active
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listening is important. But more so than
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active listening. We actually have to
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repeat back what we've heard. I teach
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people and train people, and my wife
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gets really upset when I teach listening
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skills because she thinks I'm a fraud.
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She thinks I need to do some work on
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this. But I I
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>> Wow.
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>> I teach
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>> You're being quite transparent, sir.
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It's We love We love honesty.
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>> You know, authenticity and being candid
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are critical. Um I teach people when I
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teach listening skills to listen to
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paraphrase. Most of us listen just for
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the top line of what we hear and then we
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begin rehearsing, planning, and and
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judging. You need to listen for the
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bottom line. So, I'm listening. If I had
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to summarize everything you're saying,
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what would I say? That causes me to
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listen more deeply and completely and
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then what we know from some of our
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colleagues who teach at Harvard just,
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you know, a little bit away from you all
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that if you actually pair it back, if
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you do that paraphrasing, not only do
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you demonstrate listening, but you
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actually begin to foster trust and
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connection.
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>> So listening is critical. Not only does
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it make sure you respond appropriately,
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but it makes sure that you connect to
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the person. I love the notion of a
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shared reality and we shared reality.
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I'll say it again and we miss that a
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lot. We we we'll be talking to each
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other and it'll be landing on each other
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totally differently and we'll have no
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idea. So I love this point Barbara and
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please jump in and continue what you
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were going to uh you know build on that
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it's just trying to get to a shared
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reality and that understanding of
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listening active listening like Barbara
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said as opposed to waiting for the
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silence to end. I love that point.
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>> You know, I mean, the other thing about
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this thinking just in the way America
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set it up, you know, we are a marketing
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um podcast, so thinking about how these
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skills are useful for marketers and in
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particular, as he set it up, in crisis
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situations where communication is
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critical. Another advantage of what you
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just said, not only are you really
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listening and forcing yourself to
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listen, but it gives you time. Like I
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don't know how important you think that
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is, but like you you know if you're
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you're talking about speaking fast. I
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forget thinking I forget.
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>> Think fast, talk smart. Yeah. Think. All
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right. Let's Barbara, let's practice
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together. Think fast, talk smart. There
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you go.
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>> But like I mean that almost implies I
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should think really fast. But like what
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you just said is if you actively listen
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and then take the time to repeat what
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you just said, you're actually giving
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yourself time. It's not like a race, you
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know.
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>> Yeah. So, two things I want to highlight
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based on what you said. First, think
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fast and think faster is all about
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pattern recognition.
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>> If you train yourself to recognize the
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patterns, you can respond better. So,
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you actually become faster. Expertise is
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often defined as pattern recognition.
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When you look at a chess master and a
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lot of the expertise research is done on
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people who play chess, uh it's really
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pattern recognition. So think faster is
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all about pattern recognition, not
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literally about thinking faster because
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that can cause you to stumble. But
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you're also right in situations of
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spontaneous communication, you can take
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some time. There are three ways I I
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coach and teach people to do this. One,
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ask for it. Say, "Let me think about
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that for a second." That's okay. In
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fact, there's some research that says
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when you deliberately pause to reflect,
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people see you as more credible because
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you're really trying to be present and
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give them what they need.
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>> Thoughtful. Second, you can ask a
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clarifying question. If you ask me a
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question, ask me to do something, I can
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ask for some clarity. That buys me some
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time. And then finally, what we talked
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about earlier is paraphrasing.
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Paraphrasing is a lower order cognitive
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skill, which means we can do it and be
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thinking of other things. So, it buys us
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some time. So, you're absolutely right.
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We have to buy time if we want to. And
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we can do so for by asking for it, by
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asking questions, or paraphrasing.
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I love this point. I you know something
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else that jumped into my mind Barbara as
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we were having this discussion with Matt
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and that's the idea of like how
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fundamental this is right anytime a
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human and another human is engaging
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Matt's work becomes relevant right so
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you can think about a million different
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marketing contexts where this might play
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out right a retail Matt uh Barbara is
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the retail guru at the Wharton school
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she knows everything about retail
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everything she's a wizard she's a guru
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that's great
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>> it's unbelievable I just love basking in
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her glory
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>> basking in her intellectual intellectual
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Matt, so so the idea of like customers,
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like how do you talk to customers? You
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know, we talked about seuite stuff, all
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of that stuff. But I want to put you in
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the hot seat, Matt, real quick. I want
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to go back to All right. So you are the
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Disney executives and you're starting to
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get some feedback from reactions to this
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situation with what Jimmy Kimmel said on
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the television show and there's licenses
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issues, blah blah blah. You're
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counseling Disney in the early days.
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Take us through the analysis. What do
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you tell them? how what pieces of
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additional advice, you know, above and
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beyond what you've talked about thus far
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would you give them and how would you
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help them not destroy things or keep
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things, you know, kind of under control
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if that's possible? Well, first, thank
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you for giving me a a situation that
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isn't inflammatory and have lots of
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challenges on it. I appreciate that.
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>> Don't say the wrong thing.
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>> Yeah. So my my advice in all of these
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types of crisis situations is first
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understand the situation. Often people
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react quickly and that actually can work
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against them. I'm not saying be slow.
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I'm saying take a moment to really
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understand what's an issue. First and
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foremost in all strategic communication
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you need to understand the audience and
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audiences you're speaking to. So what
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are what are the issues at play here?
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You have to lay them out in a
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dispassionate way to understand what's
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going on. Once you have that
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understanding, begin to think about what
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are the what are the potential solutions
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that we can deploy here. You know, they
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they pulled the plug very quickly. Okay.
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What then do we do with that situation?
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You know, now that we've made that rash
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or quick decision, what is it that we're
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going to do? So really think through the
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opportunities and and the problem
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solutions that you have and think then
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about the ramifications of action or no
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action. So if I were advising Disney, I
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would I would first say who are the
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constituents at play here? What are the
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issues involved? What are the possible
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solutions that you have? Look at that
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solution set. Think about the
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ramifications and then begin thinking
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about the scenarios and how they would
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plan out. So do some scenario planning.
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Think about the reactions. This takes a
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little bit of time, but it is time well
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spent.
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>> When you move very quickly, you then
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have to not only fix the mess that got
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you to that place in in the first place,
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but you often create another mess
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because you move so quickly. So, I
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really think people need to test step
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back, take time, think about who the
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audience is.
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>> Let me double down on something you said
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earlier about that. I complet I hear
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what you're saying and it's kind of like
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the structure that you're going to use
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to respond. Another thing I I heard you
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say in the beginning which I think is
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right especially in these kind of
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inflammatory situations is that you kind
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of have to train on these frameworks so
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that you can pull them up right away. I
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mean that's one of the things that we do
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in teaching core marketing is we try to
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give a a framework for immediately how
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to analyze. You know, we call it five
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C's, STP, four Ps, and we practice over
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and over. The answer to each situation
00:15:26
is different. And then you need to
00:15:28
think, you need to listen, do all those
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things. But there's some value in
00:15:33
setting up these structures. I think
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that that's what you said beginning and
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I just want to like double down on that.
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>> Absolutely. So having having structures
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that you are familiar with, well
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practiced structures help you because
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they give you a place to go. You can
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make the choice to go there or not, but
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at least you have a direction. So when I
00:15:52
teach people Q&A skills, Q&A is
00:15:54
spontaneous speaking. I have a structure
00:15:56
I like to teach people. I'm happy to
00:15:58
share it with you in a moment. But by
00:15:59
virtue of having that structure, you can
00:16:01
fulfill one of the two obligations of
00:16:03
spontaneous speaking. What to say and
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how to say it. The structure tells you
00:16:08
how to say it. It's like a recipe. I am
00:16:10
a lousy cook. Neither of you would ever
00:16:12
like to eat a meal I make. But I am a
00:16:14
better cook when I follow a recipe. Mhm.
00:16:16
>> So I teach people a structure. It's
00:16:18
three simple steps. A DD for adding
00:16:21
value. Answer the question. Give a
00:16:23
detailed example. Describe the relevance
00:16:25
or value of the answer. So let if you
00:16:28
don't mind, let's play this out. Imagine
00:16:30
you are interviewing Americas though.
00:16:34
>> I'm going to have you put me in the in
00:16:36
the hot seat. I want both of you to
00:16:38
imagine that you are the on faculty to
00:16:41
hire somebody to teach strategic
00:16:43
communication at your prestigious your
00:16:45
prestigious business school my whichever
00:16:47
it doesn't matter what is a reasonable
00:16:49
interview question you would ask that
00:16:50
doesn't just have a yes no answer to see
00:16:52
if I'm qualified to teach MBA students
00:16:55
strategic communication question just
00:16:56
ask me a question and I'll try to answer
00:16:58
it in the structure be kind
00:17:03
that's good uh and so make sure I I'm
00:17:05
going to ask another clarifying question
00:17:07
to buy a little more time.
00:17:08
>> To buy some time. I love what you're
00:17:09
doing. And you're going to paraphrase.
00:17:10
>> You see what I did there, Matt? Did you?
00:17:12
>> I did.
00:17:12
>> Uh, I did.
00:17:13
>> Yeah. But so, we're interviewing
00:17:15
someone. They're going to come in and
00:17:16
they're going to start immediately,
00:17:17
Barbara, teaching our uh, warden MBAs.
00:17:21
So, I'm probably going to ask how what
00:17:24
something to the effect of what is your
00:17:26
philosophy on how the things that we
00:17:30
study as an academic show up in the ways
00:17:34
we need to teach in the classroom.
00:17:36
>> I might ask a question like that. I I
00:17:38
believe it is absolutely critical when
00:17:41
teaching strategic communication skills
00:17:43
to role model and demonstrate effective
00:17:45
communication. In all of my teaching,
00:17:48
everything from how my syllabus is put
00:17:50
together through what I do in office
00:17:51
hours to how the students metriculate
00:17:54
and what I say as they're leaving class
00:17:55
is all well thought out to demonstrate
00:17:58
and role model what it is we teach in
00:18:01
the class. So, if you were to hire me, I
00:18:04
would make sure that our students not
00:18:05
just learn the theory and practice, but
00:18:07
they see it play out so they can take
00:18:09
advantage of and understand what it
00:18:12
looks like. So, you can tell me if
00:18:14
that's a good answer or not, but it
00:18:15
certainly followed the structure. It
00:18:17
answered the question,
00:18:18
>> gave a detailed example,
00:18:21
>> and then it explained why that's
00:18:22
important or what comes next.
00:18:24
>> See, I need your help, Matt, because
00:18:25
Barbara gets uh very high, you know,
00:18:27
student ratings. I'm just I'm just
00:18:29
trying to get get better. This is great
00:18:31
advice, though. This is fantastic
00:18:33
advice.
00:18:33
>> But but you can see how having that
00:18:35
structure. I didn't know what question
00:18:36
you were going to ask you. That was a
00:18:38
question I have was totally not knowing.
00:18:40
I did not know it was coming, but I knew
00:18:42
how I was going to answer it. I was
00:18:43
going to give an answer, give an
00:18:44
example, explain the relevance. So,
00:18:46
because I had that path, it was easier
00:18:49
for me to put that answer together. And
00:18:51
that's what structure does. And back to
00:18:52
what you said, Barbara, if you practice
00:18:54
structure, not just in messaging, but in
00:18:57
your approach to dealing with issues and
00:18:59
challenges, you can more easily and
00:19:01
readily do it. That's just like an
00:19:03
athlete who does all these drills. when
00:19:05
in the game the opportunity to deploy
00:19:07
what they did the drill for comes up,
00:19:09
they're at an advantage.
00:19:11
>> Yeah. It's kind of like, you know,
00:19:12
you're talking about thinking fast. I
00:19:14
reminds me of the Conaman framework,
00:19:16
system one, system two.
00:19:17
>> That's exactly.
00:19:18
>> And what you're talking about system one
00:19:20
is automatic thinking. And if you have
00:19:22
these frameworks and rehearse it even
00:19:25
though the answers are going to change
00:19:26
in each time you have something you can
00:19:29
immediately go to and you know you're
00:19:31
going to try to answer the question
00:19:32
you're going to try to give an example
00:19:34
and then you're going to try to say why
00:19:35
it's relevant. I think I was looking at
00:19:38
some of the things that you have said in
00:19:40
the media before just you know to see
00:19:42
which questions you were asked that I
00:19:43
was particularly interested in and one
00:19:45
of them you were asked was like how do
00:19:47
you overcome anxiety? Like that's an
00:19:50
interesting thing because a lot of
00:19:51
people are um anxious about public
00:19:54
speaking or they're afraid some
00:19:56
interview or something like this
00:19:58
>> and I I think that I'm guessing one of
00:20:01
the answers to that question is going to
00:20:02
be to have these frameworks to rely on.
00:20:05
I don't know is that is that an answer
00:20:06
to your question?
00:20:08
>> Uh so so having frameworks helps take
00:20:11
away some of the pressure. You know I
00:20:13
spent a lot of my time helping people
00:20:15
feel more confident and less anxious
00:20:17
around speaking. It is a ubiquitous
00:20:19
fear. Those of us who study it believe
00:20:21
it is just part of being human. We see
00:20:23
it in every culture and we see it start
00:20:25
to develop at certain times of in
00:20:27
children's development as they become uh
00:20:29
teenagers. So this is it's it's critical
00:20:32
to work on and there are things you can
00:20:33
do to manage the anxiety. Up to 85% of
00:20:36
people report feeling nervous and high
00:20:38
stakes communication situations.
00:20:40
Personally, I think the other 15% are
00:20:41
lying. I'm lying
00:20:44
a situation. But there are many things
00:20:46
you can do from managing symptoms. You
00:20:48
know, the experiences we have, the the
00:20:50
shakiness in our voice, in our bodies,
00:20:52
the sweatiness on our brow, there are
00:20:54
things we can do to manage that. Deep
00:20:55
belly breathing is a great way to to
00:20:57
reduce some of that. We have to deal
00:20:59
with some of the sources as well. One of
00:21:02
the sources of anxiety is wanting to
00:21:05
communicate right to do it right. I have
00:21:09
been doing this work for decades. There
00:21:11
is no right way to communicate. There
00:21:12
are better ways and worse ways. But
00:21:14
here's where that structure piece comes
00:21:16
in. Many of us believe that if I
00:21:18
memorize what I'm going to say, then I'm
00:21:20
going to do it right. So the problem
00:21:23
there is when you memorize, you actually
00:21:26
split your cognitive bandwidth, your
00:21:28
precious limited cognitive bandwidth. So
00:21:31
part of it is judging and evaluating. Am
00:21:32
I saying it right? And only part of it
00:21:34
is in the process of actually doing the
00:21:36
communication. It's much like when you
00:21:38
have a laptop open and you have lots of
00:21:40
windows open. Each one of those is a
00:21:42
little slower.
00:21:45
Yeah. So this is where this this is
00:21:46
where structure helps because if I don't
00:21:48
memorize, what do I have to get through
00:21:50
my material? I have a structure. So
00:21:52
structure is the answer to avoiding that
00:21:54
perfection memorization trap. It's a
00:21:57
really quick story, Barbara. When I did
00:21:59
a I did a TEDex talk many years ago and
00:22:02
the organizers were really all over me
00:22:05
about send the script, send the thing
00:22:06
because they want to put it in the the
00:22:08
confidence monitor. And the day of the
00:22:10
practice, Barbara, it was a total
00:22:13
disaster because I just don't operate
00:22:15
like in reading stuff and things like
00:22:17
that. To your point, Matt, I said,
00:22:19
"Forget it." The next day, I kind of
00:22:21
showed up and I said, "Here are my
00:22:22
bullet points. Put the bullet points up.
00:22:24
Let me work through this. Give me the
00:22:26
timer and I'll fit into the timer." And
00:22:28
I it made me realize the question,
00:22:29
Barbara, I want to ask this. Can can you
00:22:31
know are there heterogeneity differences
00:22:34
in people who yes we can practice but
00:22:36
are there certain types of personalities
00:22:38
where this person is just you know maybe
00:22:40
maybe they're born to be a an improv
00:22:43
comic I mean they're just good with this
00:22:45
stuff or or how talk and by the way I
00:22:47
will share with you Matt Barbara has
00:22:50
also completed a comedy course so she is
00:22:52
a master master of uh improv comedy in
00:22:55
addition to her wizardry and retail guru
00:22:58
>> of course master is a is a leap I, you
00:23:01
know, improv, I think, is one of the
00:23:03
best skills to train people to be
00:23:05
effective in the moment communicators.
00:23:07
Most people think improv is about being
00:23:09
funny. It's not. It's about being
00:23:12
present. It's about being open to
00:23:14
opportunity. Yeah. Exactly. And we have
00:23:16
lots of I don't know if Wharton does,
00:23:17
but here at the GSB, we have lots of
00:23:19
classes that infuse improvisation
00:23:22
because a manager, a leader needs to
00:23:24
have those skills. That said, Barbara, I
00:23:26
want you to invite me to an open mic
00:23:28
night when you're performing and I will
00:23:31
come and be in the audience.
00:23:32
>> No problem. It's hard. I like stand up
00:23:33
better, actually.
00:23:34
>> Okay. Well, you still have in in
00:23:36
standup, you have to respond to hecklers
00:23:38
and what's happening in the room. So,
00:23:40
there there's a lot of spontaneity. I
00:23:42
have a cousin who is actually a very
00:23:44
well-known comic. And uh it's wonderful
00:23:47
to see him work a room. There's a lot of
00:23:49
spontaneity in that. And all of us as
00:23:51
leaders, as people need to have those
00:23:52
skills. I I want to kind of switch
00:23:55
gears. You're saying so many things and
00:23:57
it's so interesting. What? No, it's
00:23:59
wonderful. I love it. Uh and so relevant
00:24:02
both to communications and to marketing,
00:24:04
but one of the things we're also
00:24:05
interested in just because we do this
00:24:07
too is not only are you at Stanford
00:24:10
teaching and writing books, but you do
00:24:12
have a very successful podcast. So I'm
00:24:14
curious, were you like a pioneer in the
00:24:16
podcast world? Um how did you get to
00:24:19
grow your podcast?
00:24:21
>> Yes. share some of that wisdom with us,
00:24:22
Matt. So, as with many things in my
00:24:25
life, it's about serendipity and
00:24:27
willingness to take risk. So, uh five
00:24:30
five and a half years ago, almost six
00:24:31
years ago, the business school came to
00:24:34
me and said, "Hey, we're interested in
00:24:37
trying a podcast. We the the Stanford
00:24:38
has never had the business school had
00:24:40
never had a true podcast. They had
00:24:42
classes that they would slice and dice
00:24:44
and call podcasts, but those were
00:24:46
courses that were made into podcasts."
00:24:48
And I uh like Americus I had done a uh a
00:24:51
talk. The talk had done really well. It
00:24:53
was about communication. So they said,
00:24:54
"We know that there's an audience for
00:24:56
communication. So do you mind?" And and
00:24:59
I've learned in my career that when
00:25:00
opportunity comes, sure, say yes, why
00:25:02
not? I'm I'm very driven to help people
00:25:04
with their communication skills. This
00:25:05
seemed like a reasonable way to try.
00:25:07
Well, this is where circumstance really
00:25:10
played out. And and I tell all my
00:25:12
students, I tell my children, you can be
00:25:15
really good at what you do, but luck
00:25:16
plays a big role in life. We came out
00:25:18
with our first episodes end of January
00:25:21
2020. So here we are with six episodes
00:25:24
ahead of the curve
00:25:25
>> on communication.
00:25:27
>> Wow.
00:25:28
>> And then the world shuts down, the
00:25:29
pandemic happens, everybody is
00:25:32
sequestered, everybody starts listening
00:25:34
to to podcasts and people are like, how
00:25:36
the heck do I communicate in this
00:25:38
sequestered world? So here we were with
00:25:40
content at a trusted source that was
00:25:43
relevant while people had time to
00:25:45
listen. So I think we had good content,
00:25:47
but I certainly am under no uh no
00:25:50
delusions that we were in the right
00:25:51
place at the right time. And thankfully
00:25:54
the audience started there and and
00:25:56
because hopefully of the value we
00:25:57
provide, the audience has grown. But you
00:25:59
know what Justin marketing if you have
00:26:02
an offering that people need then you
00:26:04
can build a base.
00:26:06
>> But you've been doing this now for six
00:26:08
years. I'm kind of and do you do an
00:26:09
interview show also? Do you talk to
00:26:11
people?
00:26:12
>> So how I'm just curious over the six
00:26:14
years starting from precoid what are the
00:26:17
natures of the guests you get on and
00:26:19
like what are some of the topics you've
00:26:20
talked about? So we we have academics.
00:26:22
I've had several of your colleagues on
00:26:24
Katie Milkman, Jonah Burgerer. Uh we we
00:26:27
recently talked to Wendy Dear Rosa. So a
00:26:30
lot of Wharton faculty, clearly a lot of
00:26:32
Stanford faculty, but also
00:26:33
practitioners, expert practitioners who
00:26:36
who have something to say around
00:26:38
communication. You know, the nice thing
00:26:39
about what I teach, similar to what you
00:26:41
teach, I mean, marketing and
00:26:42
communication, those are big umbrellas.
00:26:44
A lot of things fit under that those
00:26:46
umbrellas. So we bring people on. Uh,
00:26:48
part of the key, I think, to our success
00:26:50
is we're very brief. Our episodes are 20
00:26:52
minutes long. Our goal is at the end of
00:26:54
every episode, you leave with at least
00:26:56
two or three things you can implement
00:26:57
right away. We've won lots of fancy
00:27:00
awards. The one I'm most proud of is
00:27:01
best dog walking podcast because we're
00:27:04
20 minutes. People walk their dogs for
00:27:05
20 minutes, they get value. Um, so, so
00:27:08
yeah, I mean, you I mean, as marketing
00:27:10
professionals, you understand you have
00:27:12
to have a good product. It has to have
00:27:14
it has to fit into people's lives.
00:27:16
People have to see value from it. And
00:27:17
that's what we've tried to to build. And
00:27:19
we are very responsive to our audience.
00:27:21
You know, we believe in the agile
00:27:22
development, rapid prototyping. We try
00:27:25
lots of things. Some work, some don't,
00:27:27
but we're always in service of our
00:27:28
audience.
00:27:29
>> Well, Matt, in in in thinking of keeping
00:27:32
it short, we are at the end of our time.
00:27:35
So, we'd like to thank you so much for
00:27:37
joining us today and tell our listeners
00:27:39
where they can go to hear about your
00:27:40
work, your podcast, etc.
00:27:43
>> Well, first, thank you so much. It was a
00:27:45
true pleasure. I love talking to people
00:27:47
who are in the same world I am, both
00:27:48
podcasting and academics. Uh, to find
00:27:51
out more about what what I do and what
00:27:53
I'm up to, go to fastermarter.io
00:27:56
and you can always link in with me at
00:27:57
Matt Abrahams on LinkedIn. Those are two
00:27:59
great resources. Happy to connect and
00:28:01
happy to share and continue the
00:28:03
education that you all are providing to
00:28:05
your audience.
00:28:06
>> And you gave them a good way to remember
00:28:07
your last name, right? Right in the
00:28:09
>> Yes, exactly. There you go.
00:28:11
>> Excellent. Love it.
00:28:12
>> Anyway, thank you very much. That's all
00:28:14
we have time for today. Thank you all
00:28:16
for listening. We'd like to thank our
00:28:18
producers Deion Simpkins and Marissa
00:28:20
Rena. We'll be back next week. Till
00:28:22
then, this has been Marketing Matters on
00:28:24
the Wharton Podcast Network. I'm Barbara
00:28:26
Khan here with America Reed.
00:28:29
[Music]
