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I'm Adam Grant I'm here with New York
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Times bestselling author Keith farazi
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he's written Never Eat Alone as well as
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who's got your back also the former
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Chief marketing officer at deoe and
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Starwood Hotels in addition he runs
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ferazzi Greenlight and he's really
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focused a lot on philanthropy and
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disadvantaged communities these days as
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well as research around Behavior change
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Keith pleasure to have you here you did
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that in one take I'm so impressed
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actually may maybe or maybe I didn't
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we'll see thanks a lot for having me now
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we we'd love to chat with you a little
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bit about building relationships and and
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networking what you're known best for so
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talk to us a little bit about how you
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think about building relationships well
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I don't think uh the fact that I'm here
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is probably um you know part and partial
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of the fact that you and I believe very
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much the same thing and that is number
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one relationships are crucial to all of
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our success no matter what we want to
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achieve in our life uh whether it's to
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be president of the United States the
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CEO of a company to to write some social
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ill whatever it is people are crucial in
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achieving that and that's what we study
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we are a research institute on
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relational and collaborative Sciences
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but particularly focused not just on
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studying the relationships and how one
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goes about building better relationships
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but more importantly how do you change
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Behavior how in fact do you sustainably
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change the behaviors in our life to step
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up to be more effective in our
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relationships and our collaboration so
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number one relationship Primacy is
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really critical to me I always ask the
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question what do you want to achieve in
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life and then the next question you
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always have to ask is who who are the
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people that are necessary to achieve
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that and that's when we introduce
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something that we call a people plan um
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the next thing we believe in is that
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people are too damn busy people are too
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damn busy to spend any time with you and
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and people are too damn busy to pay
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attention to your issues unless of
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course you lead all relationships with
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generosity what's in it for them and
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that's sort of the old way of thinking
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that it's a balance sheet sort of
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scorecard but it's really not it's
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really just leading in the world with an
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unadulterated Focus on making other
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people successful and if you walk around
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the world creating an environment around
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yourself that invites people in to be
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generous to them you will have
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extraordinary success and I can get into
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a lot more of the detail but I think
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those are the basic principles people
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are critical and go help them I I love
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the message so let's talk about how to
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make it practical so if I want to think
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about being more generous to the people
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around me what are some of the steps you
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recommend well the first thing we think
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about is um you've got to develop what
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we call your currency and there are
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three layers of currency that you have
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to offer generosity um any one
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individual can exercise any one of them
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with uh with more ease or not the first
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layer is the kind of generosity that
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just makes people want to be around you
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we call that universal currency um are
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you the kind of person that people want
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to be around you know some people use
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wit um but I have to tell you that the
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the leading indicator of are you the
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kind of PE person that people want to
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hang around is authenticity it's
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vulnerability actually to teach leaders
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that for their ability to create
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environments around themselves that
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invite their own team in an organization
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abroad Etc it's it's their leading with
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their own
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Humanity there's there's there's the
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part of our brain The Reptilian Brain
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that that that uh drives our fight
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flight mechanism is really what's in
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control here
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anthropologically while we long to
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connect with other people we long to be
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uh in somebody's what's called an
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ingroup right um on the other hand we're
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so F particularly in the last 20 to 30
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years where we don't have as much
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practice being communal we're so fearful
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that that another person is them instead
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of us that they're not our tribe they're
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another tribe that we walk around
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putting guards up pushing people away
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the ability to get into somebody's
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ingroup is the ability to let your own
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guard now so that's probably the first
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thing and I can get into a lot more
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detail around that in fact due in my
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second book who's got your back where I
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teach people how to be more effective at
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building those Lifeline relations ships
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because we feel that if you don't have
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those Lifeline relationships those deep
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intimate kick your butt tell you the
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truth love you no matter what uh care
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for you help you kind of relationships
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the extension of your network is going
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to be quite weak um so number one again
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is just the focus on universal currency
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by the way um I I highly Advocate
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therapy I high highly Advocate going
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seeing uh uh a coach or a priest or
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whatever it takes some people have such
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a difficulty trusting other people that
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sometimes you have to pay somebody to
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practice learning how to trust and and
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you call them a coach right any the
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great athletes in the world have at
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least two or three coaches if you want
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to be the best relational athlete
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spousal athlete if you want to be the
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best leadership athlete if you want to
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be the best professional athlete go get
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a coach all right next layer um the next
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layer focuses on the professional
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currency and I think most people have
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curated that the most we have we lead in
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the world with strong professionalism we
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bust our butts we do a great job we make
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sure our products are solid Etc although
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I have to I have to say that you know in
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retrospect in my life I spent way too
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much time early on as an entrepreneur
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pushing selling as opposed to generously
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serving and once I started to generously
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serve my product got better uh as an
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entrepreneur so even in that area of
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professional currency people who believe
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that their job is to sell stuff versus
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serve a community uh actually don't do
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as well the third layer of currency that
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we all have to curate and making other
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people successful and creating an
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environment around us is literally
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trying to understand what the hell
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somebody cares about if you care about
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your kids I have a 15-year-old Foster
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son anybody who wants to help the foster
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care system and is willing to put their
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money and their time behind it I'll
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spend time with right you and your work
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around I mean if if you know I want want
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to get to know you because you're a
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young mover and a Shaker and you're out
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there in the in the intellectual
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property World in a space that I want I
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would like to to to participate in and
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the work that you're doing and I'm so
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proud of of of all you've done I really
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am so much so proud of all you've done I
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show up here from Los Angeles I fly in
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from Los Angeles to do this for you and
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then I've got to fly back out again
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tomorrow morning I'm here for you
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because you are on a list of individuals
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that matter to the intellectual property
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that I'm trying to perpetuate in the
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world you're on a people plan side
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somewhere at farazi Greenlight that says
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Adam's the kind of dude that we want to
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hang with therefore you serve him that's
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that's a scary thought right there well
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but but it's true if you're doing great
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things all I care about and all my firm
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cares about right now is making a
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difference in the world around
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relational competencies and changing
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people's behavior and moving the world
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toward a greater degree of relational uh
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competency generosity um you know
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humanity and particularly disadvantaged
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communities which we can get to later
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anyway you asked me one question I spent
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a lot of time talking about it but was
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really important to us if you're going
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to build generosity you're do building
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it on three layers the universal
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currency of who you are and how you're
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interact with people um the professional
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currency of delivering an extraordinary
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product and the personal currency of
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also ultimately saying you know you know
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by the way I've got some good baby books
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um I understand you're a new dad um and
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that there's some opportunities for you
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to consider uh um you know things that I
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can do for you whatever it is I want to
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serve you in whatever way possible to
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make you a better person more successful
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personally M it makes sense I guess one
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of the challenges that many of us run
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into is when we approach networking or
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relationship building with this idea of
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helping others they often react with
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suspicion why do you want to help me
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what's in it for you how do you manage
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that I because you be transparent I
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think the weirdness is that we think
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that this has to be something cloistered
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in any way um I just told you you're
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you're you're an individual whose
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intellectual property is making it on
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the stage and it's a set of intellectual
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property that I believe strongly in so I
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want you to be more successful my job is
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that anybody who is perpetuating a space
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that I care about I need to serve them
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because my job is to help other people
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be as great as they possibly can be as
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long as it promotes our mission um so
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and now I told you why right it's very
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clear very transparent that's my agenda
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so to speak um and there we go by the
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way when my when I have an
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African-American kid and when when we
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brought my boy into our home at 12 uh I
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decided I needed more African-American
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leaders in my life and so I started
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reaching out to African-American leaders
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in the Los Angeles area saying Hey
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listen you know I've just uh brought in
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a foster son um I want this child to
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have uh an incredibly strong and proud
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and Rich uh uh upbringing as an
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African-American youth I want to make
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sure that there's other influences in my
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life so you know guy like guys like Jay
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Jay Williams from duke uh are now a part
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of my friendship but there's nothing
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wrong with that that Jay's an awesome
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guy I'm helping Jay with his his new
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book he's one of the most extraordinary
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people that I know out there just as a
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human right I'm going to having up for
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dinner soon you know there's nothing
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wrong with transparency when your
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heart's in the right place so when they
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when they're I think suspicion is
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meaning they're waiting for the shoe to
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drop right well just drop the damn shoe
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right up front say hey dude you're
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interesting you know you're a poet I
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need more I want more poets in my life I
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want journalists in my damn life because
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I find them they they just read which is
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relieving in Los Angeles right so so I
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reach out to people and I tell them that
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I just tell them that I love it so what
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do most people do wrong when they
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approach relationships and networks in
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your experience it's a mindset and it's
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a mindset of what's in it for me right
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that's the first thing it's a mindset of
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what's in it for me and it's stinks on
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their suit a mile away what's in it for
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me um it needs to be a values-based
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Judgment of how you're going to live
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your life and and you've gotta now by
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the way I mean there's an AA slogan uh
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called fake it to you make it so you
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know the point is that little by little
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by little you've got to be able to
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recondition your brain and that's one of
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the things about human behavior change
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human behavior change doesn't happen
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through knowledge if it happened through
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knowledge then nobody on a diet would
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eat a piece of cake right I mean the the
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the bottom line is we need to experience
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Behavior change small doses of
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incremental experiences positive
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experiences not even negative
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experiences small doses of incremental
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positive experiences change mindsets so
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you change the behavior to change the
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mindset um we unfortunately have
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addictions and I use the word Addiction
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and I follow things like 12-step
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programs and other mechanisms to shift
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uh behavioral addictions because
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everybody who's watching this has an
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addiction there's not a single person
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that isn't addicted to feeling less than
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in a room
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procrastination um you know some
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behavioral addiction that holds us back
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that you know being too shy being too
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insecure being too whatever tempers all
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these things are nothing more than
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addictive behaviors that we practice
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even though they don't serve us well
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right so little tiny doses of new
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behaviors pushing yourself incrementally
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will will be the way in which we change
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those behaviors you got a question I
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think I do in fact so in the spirit of
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transparency so 2005 had a group of MBA
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students who were reading your first
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book Never Eat Alone and everybody was
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buzzing about it it was changing the way
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they were thinking about networks I went
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and read it and at first it was very
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hard to process as a relatively
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introverted guy I want to eat Al loone
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and I think it really pushed me to to
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think differently about how I manage my
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network what's been the reaction to to
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the book over the years oh gosh I mean
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you know the the the best I my life has
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been transformed because of it um it
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gave me a purpose that I didn't think
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I'd have um when I was young I wanted to
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be in politics and then was
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disillusioned by that and I mean I found
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my my way back around to being what I
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think I was put on this planet for is to
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try to make a difference to make an
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impact and you know as an entrepreneur
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as a philanthropist um I that's a fancy
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word as somebody who wants to to help
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disadvantage communities um what I've
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what I've really learned is that that
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book has given me entree as now yours
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has and will um it's really kind of
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powerful uh
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what I've learned is that when somebody
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reads that book and is overwhelmed the
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way we wrote it was with so many small
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tactical things you could just try right
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that it's very difficult to ignore the
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whole body without trying something and
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and people generally navigate their way
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to trying something and then when they
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do they were like well damn that wasn't
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that bad you know it was actually worked
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and then they want more and they want
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more and that's exactly I mean look
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we're transforming massive cultural
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iconic corporations uh behaviors saving
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them from um from uh from from
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directions that was uh you know
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potentially um uh eviscerating to the
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entire company and and the way we're
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going about doing that first of all the
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the most uh the least curated set of
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behaviors that are necessary for large
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corporations to change uh are the
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relational ones because we grow up in
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large companies through the operations
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through the finance Etc and we don't
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think of the relational we think of it
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as woowoo well we've engineered
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behavioral understanding and by
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engineering behavioral understanding
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around relationships particularly um we
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what we call we thin sliced the
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practices so that we can give people
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small doses coated in Sugar that give
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them a chance that to to begin to shift
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massive mindset changes and we've been
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very proud of of being able to do that
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at some pretty damn big companies to
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extraordinary results I one particular
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large telecommunications company over
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the last two years got $3.2 billion
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dollar of new Pipeline and 1.7 billion
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of new Revenue around key strategic
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accounts just by applying uh the
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intervention uh methodologies that we
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put into place wow what kinds of
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behavior changes are we talking about
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that that at least move in that
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direction well again Behavior changes
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are are too broad even one of the things
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we're realizing that is the behavior is
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made up into of of a set of practices so
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the behavior is we want you to build
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loyal relationships with your
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customers that's been preached for years
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on the other hand to say to an
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individual think of three of your
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customers who you would you
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authentically admire and I want you to
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send them an email right now telling
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them that you authentically admire them
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and ask for a cup of coffee right that's
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a practice that's a practice of somebody
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who's relationally and loyally minded
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that one practice with 15 consultants in
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one of the largest consulting firms in
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the world created 2 58 million of new
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Revenue in nothing more than two months
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because that that had opened an
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authentic door that they hadn't been
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willing to open themselves so what we've
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done is we've finin sliced the practices
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around unleashing customer experience um
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in a retail environment uh around
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strategic account management and large
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B2B sales around shifting individuals to
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self-directed learning within large
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corporations so we've got a number of
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verticals that we have so engineered the
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behaviors and practices and then we have
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come up with our methodology to coach
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those practices through positive
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psychology and a number of other levers
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that uh we'll be talking a little bit
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about tonight at the talk um that we've
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been we've been very successful for for
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our clients it's it's interesting to
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hear about the impact on the corporate
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world what about in disadvantaged
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communities well the first one we chose
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was foster care um actually that's not
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true the first one we chose I was going
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down to Guatemala um I just wanted to
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get away and and and help at an
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orphanage and I picked one in Guatemala
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went down and I I thought I was going to
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go down there to give some money out and
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what I realized was that the the glass
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ceiling the addiction the behavioral
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limitation of these very smart kids some
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of them was that they did not believe
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that they could break through their
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cycle of poverty the best that they
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could do was going to go out and pick
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beans in the field like their parents
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had um and so we started adapting our
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philosophy and our strategy B basically
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combining the lifeline groups of of
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who's got your back along with the
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relational Outreach of Never Eat Alone
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similar to what the gomon bank does um
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for its micr lending but we started
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teaching high potential orphans in
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Guatemala and it was amazing these kids
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never this this population didn't go to
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school these kids started graduating
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from high school uh going to school and
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coming back as nurses as doctors and as
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teachers so we've got an entire cycle
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cycle of of Rejuvenation of curring ing
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using this methodology there we brought
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it back to the States for third world
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kids I mean to for um for foster kids
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80% of the US prison population 80% of
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the US prison population came from
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foster care it's an extraordinarily
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broken system it's a major passion of
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mine we now have a a foster son and uh
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and and perhaps another on our way we're
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negotiating that at home right now
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whether we can we can handle it but our
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heart certainly can and our bedrooms are
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available so um really helping kids
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because these are kids whose relational
00:17:30
competency was broken early because the
00:17:32
their their primary relationship severed
00:17:34
that relational competency and then they
00:17:36
were thrown into a transactional system
00:17:38
no intimacy no care no trust no love
00:17:41
they graduate from that system incapable
00:17:44
of bonding incapable of sitting in front
00:17:46
of you looking you in the eye and
00:17:48
establishing any degree of trust no job
00:17:50
competency they find families in gangs
00:17:53
they find Intimacy in prostitution um
00:17:56
they're the highest homelessness rate
00:17:58
it's it's horrible and unfortunately the
00:18:00
politicians won't fix this system
00:18:02
because none of nobody caring about
00:18:04
these folks votes and and it's when we
00:18:08
can't afford our education system for
00:18:10
the people who vote where does the money
00:18:12
go it goes there not on these kids so
00:18:14
we're we're we're doing a major effort
00:18:16
there excellent and one other question
00:18:18
I'd love to close on is you're known for
00:18:21
making introductions and connecting
00:18:23
people who don't know each other any
00:18:24
tips you can offer to our listeners and
00:18:26
readers about how to make an excellent
00:18:27
introduction
00:18:29
you know I I think the key is to do your
00:18:31
research back in my day I had card
00:18:33
cataloges to do my research on and now
00:18:35
we've got you know the internet um what
00:18:38
you need to do is you need to get into
00:18:41
the mind of the person sitting in front
00:18:42
of you and put that triangle on top of
00:18:44
them so you've got two people you want
00:18:45
to introduce make sure that there's
00:18:47
value to both of those individuals right
00:18:50
so if you want to introduce two people
00:18:52
to each other you understand what I
00:18:55
ideally with their personal uh uh
00:18:59
currency is in terms of what their
00:19:00
demands are what do they most need uh
00:19:04
personally and professionally but mostly
00:19:05
personally find out what they're and and
00:19:08
if they're senior chances are they've
00:19:10
got some sense of desire to make an
00:19:13
impact in this world how do they want to
00:19:15
make an impact um family you know
00:19:18
there's a chapter in my book we're
00:19:19
talking about this concept of social
00:19:20
Arbitrage but social Arbitrage of
00:19:23
introducing to people applied with
00:19:25
health wealth and children making a
00:19:26
difference making an impact those are
00:19:28
the things that really matter to people
00:19:30
so if you can put them together for that
00:19:31
purpose that's a bond that sticks very
00:19:34
good Keith thank you for joining us
00:19:35
today that's my pleasure thanks
00:19:44
[Music]
00:19:57
Adam
