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I'm Madam Grant I'm here with Nick
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Kristoff co-author with his wife Cheryl
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Wun of a path appears a brilliant book
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that's been called inspiring by the
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likes of Bill and Melinda Gates Bill
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Clinton Angelina Jolie and many others
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Nick welcome delighted to be with you
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well I I've been a fan for a long time
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uh two pullit surprises New York Times
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column what inspired you to write this
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book well Cheryl and I had written a
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previous book uh half the sky about
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empowering women in other countries and
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then after we wrote that then so many
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people would come up to us and they
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would ask you know a well what about the
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US and B so what can I do and we wanted
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to try to address that and it seemed to
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us that there are so many Americans who
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want to make a difference in some form
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but the problem seem too vast uh they
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don't really they're suspicious about
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corruption inefficiency and they don't
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really know that they can accomplish
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anything in fact we think there's been a
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pretty good evidence base that has
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emerged that shows what does work what
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doesn't work that's one of the big
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points that you Hammer home in the book
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that we need to take evidence more
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seriously in this domain why why aren't
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we doing it and how do we change
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it you know I think that it's so
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tempting just to go with our gut and
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that's always been the way we've done it
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I think it's also just a little bit more
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work um but I think it is gradually
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coming and now you have randomized
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control trials where you can uh test a
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intervention the way you would a
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pharmaceutical and um it gives you a
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real sense of what the impact is at what
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cost and I find it so useful because you
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know every every Aid group in the
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history of the world has always found
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that its own interventions are
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incredibly successful and they always
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come to me and want me to write about
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them and I you know I'm frankly a little
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bit skeptical but when I see an outside
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measurement um using randomized trial
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then I'm much more confident that this
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is real well one of the things that that
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I found challenging reading the book was
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it led me to question how I actually
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make my everyday choices
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and I I have a feeling I'm Not Alone um
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did you find that writing the book
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transformed your own thinking about
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giving
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um you know it challenged me a little
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bit I think Cheryl and me both because
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you know frankly we do a certain amount
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of giving that is not particularly
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optimized to create opportunity you know
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I mean I um we give to some cultural
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organizations we give to our Alma
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modders uh the beneficiaries of those
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are going to be you know kids that are
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better off than average and um and so
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that kind of forc me to think about that
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and I think where I came down is that
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it's a little like a a bouet and that we
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don't everything we do isn't intended to
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you know add a little bit of utility and
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some kind of utilitarian scheme uh but
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Cheryl and I also go out to dinner and
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um that money might be better spent in
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Bangladesh but so be it and as long as
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our donations to a cultural organization
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or to where Alma moders are coming out
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of the go to dinner money rather than
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out of the Bangladesh money then we're
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in good shape so there there are a lot
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of powerful stories along with with
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studies looking at different ways of of
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trying to successfully make a difference
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um I thought cure violence was one of
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the most fascinating ones how did you
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come ac across that story and uh what
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did you take away from it you know I've
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always been interested in public health
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approaches because it seems to me that
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we have this yearning for silver bullets
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and that that is not in fact how change
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comes about change comes about through
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silver Buckshot you know just a lot of
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little things that that achieve results
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and that's kind of a classic public
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health approach and indeed that is what
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Gary slutkin the founder of cure
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violence did he was an expert in
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epidemiology and uh looking at at the
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way contagious diseases spread in Africa
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and he then came to Chicago and looked
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at the way gang violence was spreading
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and he realized this is a public health
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problem it's not a criminological
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problem and we have tools from public
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health about stopping infections that we
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can apply to stop gang violence and he
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began to to do that uh and it worked and
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it worked incredibly cheaply uh and so
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and he's been able to measure that and
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now try it in other cities it's been
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it's even being introduced in Syria
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right now um so um you know the this
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idea of just trying creative new
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approaches measuring them carefully
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tweaking the model in this sort
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iterative process to get the most impact
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you can at the cheapest price I think
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it's just such a powerful model what can
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companies learn from this approach
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social impact is a theme that runs
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throughout the the book and what do you
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think businesses should be doing
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differently based on everything that
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you've been learning and studying well
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I've got to say I think businesses right
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now tend to approach um CSO far as this
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kind of Fringe activity on the side
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boards and and CEOs spend very little
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time on it it has very little effect I
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think they've got to completely rethink
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this if they want to recruit and retain
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young people from the millennial
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generation for Millennials these are
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issues that really matter deeply and if
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you're not competing in this space then
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you are undermining the long-term future
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of your company uh and and that goes to
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the long-term future of your share price
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as well if you can't get good people um
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I think that companies can have a huge
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impact on uh Society for good if they
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exercise it and uh but right now it's
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this kind of peripheral thing it's not
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well thought out not much measured
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people know within the company that if
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they go off and CSR you know their
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career may be stalled I I think we'd all
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be much better off if companies um made
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this much more front and center you
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talked not just about you know thinking
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about social responsibility but about
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creating opportunity how did you settle
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on that as as your lens and your sort of
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focus within the domain of making a
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difference CHL and I sort of feel that
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the basic aphorism for the 21st century
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is that Talent is universal but
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opportunity is not that just seems to
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sum up so much of the challenges we face
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and earlier we wrote about women's
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empowerment because one of the main
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reasons why um opportunity is not fully
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exercised is gender around the world but
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it's not the only one and there are an
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awful lot of people who don't exercise
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their talent can't fulfill their
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contributions to society because of
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other reasons they don't get a good
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education they're living in poverty
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they're stuck in a poverty cycle um and
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uh try to create that opportunity is a
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way of addressing inequities in society
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um we tend to measure uh inequality
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through metrics of income or wealth the
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greatest inequality of all is inequality
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of opportunity and these are things we
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can do something
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about and one of the things that that I
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found I would say striking at minimum um
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maybe even unsettling at maximum is how
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close you got to people who are
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experiencing this equality inequality of
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opportunity um you there there are some
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stories in the book that were absolutely
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gut-wrenching um and what's what's also
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inspiring is that many of them turn
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around and are able to discover
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opportunity but but what was it like to
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to engage with people both in the
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developing world and here in the United
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States who are just experiencing some of
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the worst of what life has to offer and
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and still come away with a sense of hope
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you know it is so frustrating when you
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see um people who we let down because
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they slip through the cracks there's a
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four-year-old kid in West Virginia who
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we saw who um had had uh ear infections
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that weren't addressed early he went
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deaf there was no hearing screening and
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so as his bra is developing he's not
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getting any auditory stimulus and so he
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can't speak it's not clear if he's ever
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going to bounce back and I think what I
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find most frustrating is that there's a
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tendency of successful people to harp on
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personal responsibility and that's you
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know absolutely true one there's a lot
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of self-destructive behavior that goes
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with poverty and of course we want
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personal responsibility on the part of
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the poor but we also want responsibility
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on the part of society and we let kids
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get by without a hearing screening or
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not able to get to a good school or not
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have access to family planning at a time
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when onethird of teenage girls become
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pregnant by age 19 then that's
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irresponsibility not just on their part
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but on all of our parts especially when
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we have the toolboxes now and the
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evidence about what works and yet we
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don't implement it what would you like
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to see happen in in schools let's take
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business school as an as an example if
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you want to teach the Next Generation to
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think differently about solving these
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kinds of problems where would you start
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start Business Schools have so much to
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offer because one of the problems in the
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nonprofit sector has been you have
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people with very good intentions who
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were very very well-meaning but
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productivity in the nonprofit sector has
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hugely lagged productivity in the
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for-profit sector and because you're not
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getting Market signals people are much
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more inclined to invest in nonoptimal
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uses and over the last 15 or 20 years it
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has really been quite useful to have
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more people coming from the business
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world into the doter world with a real
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emphasis on measurement on bang for the
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buck uh and that is useful but there's a
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lot more that can be done and in
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particular the nonprofit World often
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doesn't have people who are good at um
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kind of the um some of the peripheral
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areas in marketing for example uh
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nonprofit systematically don't Market
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well and marketing is so much more
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important if you're
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encouraging girls education than it is
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if you're you know trying to sell a Coke
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do you think the same skills apply
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though or do we need to rethink the way
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that we actually teach people to Market
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in this new
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domain I think that in that for that
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example in marketing probably the same
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skills apply I think that we do need to
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rethink um a lot of business skills and
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um you know in in finance for example I
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think that um social impact bonds are
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potentially a way of providing capital
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for Investments That save the public
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money in a context in which often
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government does not invest in things
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that would save it money um and so I
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think they're I think it's going to be a
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mix uh both applying existing uh
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business tools to the nonprofit world
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but also rethinking some um some of the
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conventional business tools for a new
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context and if you think about your
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typical business reader coming away from
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the book what actions would you like to
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see them take that they're not doing
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currently you know one of my
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frustrations is that we in society
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generally we have this um sort of
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bifurcation in how we see the world so
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uh probably a little less true of
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business audience but in general there
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tends to be this view that um for-profit
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companies greedy nonprofits Noble um and
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it's obviously more complicated than
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that what matters is whether there's
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impact and and some businesses
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for-profit companies can have tremendous
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impact for good and some nonprofits can
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have none um likewise when we allocate
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our Capital at the end of the year you
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know we divert a little bit of it toward
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charity and we want no return we give it
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all away we want to lose all our
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investment and then much of it we will
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invest in the market or for our
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retirement and there we want the highest
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possible return and you know no
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compromise on that and we don't look at
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all about social impact there know there
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should be something in between the two
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maybe uh people are willing to invest
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their Capital but not get their not get
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a return or to lose part of their
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capital or you know there should be
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something in between these two poles
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where do you stand on on B Corps as an
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example of falling in the middle I think
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that b Corps are a great idea uh I think
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that uh the whole idea of trying to find
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Alternatives uh to these two extremes is
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is a really useful one um I think that
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in practice it's been um you know hard
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to figure out how you manage the
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tradeoffs uh but uh in general I think
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it's a great idea and on a similar note
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U buy one give one models are I think
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exploding in popularity if you think of
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a tom shoes or Warby Parker how does
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that fit into the picture for you I
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think that works really well uh as a
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marketing technique for the companies
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I'm less convinced that it's always
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always the optimal way of addressing
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that social need you know but on the
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other hand if if the marketing works and
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it's a way of getting customers then
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then then it may in the in the long run
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be successful uh there
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too there was a a very moving review in
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the New York Times by an Oxford
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professor of the book uh who warned if
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you don't want to reink the way that you
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spend your time don't read this book uh
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and I I think that that was a very
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accurate way of characterizing the
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effect it has what was your reaction to
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that review
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we were incredibly flattered because you
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know we wrote the book not just to
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inform but ultimately we want people to
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to then take action and the most
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flattering thing for us has been when a
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book club reads a path of peers and then
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decides okay what are we going to do now
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and when they decide to to do something
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and um you know we would love to see uh
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people who read it then decide okay
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they're going to not only support um a
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business school With Their donation but
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also support a nursery school for
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example you know I think that would
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be I I think that there really is a
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toolkit out there to have an impact on
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the world that we are underusing right
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now and I hope that people will pick
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that up and do things with it what if
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you were going to take away one major
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message from the book what would be the
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the driving point
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there I think
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one can I get two
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so you know one would be that we really
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can indeed uh have an impact and that by
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having an impact on others we have an
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impact on ourselves and that nothing you
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know that purely altruistic behavior is
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pretty much impossible because of the
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selfish Pleasures we derive from it and
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the other is that both in this country
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and abroad one reason why we haven't had
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more uh luck in chipping away at poverty
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has been that we typically start too
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late that it is an awful lot easier to
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help a troubled six uh six-month-old
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than a 16-year-old down the road and you
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know that's the lwh hanging fruit these
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early interventions and yet we
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invariably try to pick the high hanging
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fruit of building prisons later on to
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address those who slipped through the
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cracks that we put there I think early
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intervention is a message we can all get
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behind and we're grateful that you came
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and joined us today thank you I'm
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delighted to be here
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[Music]
