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[Music]
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I called my friend Kevin Volpe a star
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Economist and medical doctor who helped
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build one of the most successful applied
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behavioral economics research groups in
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the world I wanted Kevin's perspective
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why did he think we'd been so
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unsuccessful at making Behavior change
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stick Kevin offered up some
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Unforgettable words of wisdom when we
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diagnosed someone with diabetes we don't
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put them on insulin for a month take
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them off of it and expect them to be
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cured in medicine doctors recognize that
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chronic diseases require a lifetime of
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treatment why do we assume that behavior
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changes any different welcome to the
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ripple effect the podcast that takes you
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on a journey through the minds of
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Wharton faculty I'm your host Dan Looney
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and in each episode we'll be diving deep
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into the inspiration behind the
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groundbreaking research that Wharton
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professors have conducted and exploring
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how their findings resonate with the
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world today we'll be covering a diverse
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range of topics bringing you the latest
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insights and knowledge that you can
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apply to your life into work so get
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ready to dive into new ideas with the
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ripple effect
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well great to be joined by Katie Milkman
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Wharton School professor of operations
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information and decision she's also
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co-director of the behavior change for
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good and author of the book how to
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change the science of getting from where
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you are to where you want to be Katie
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always great to talk to you have you
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been always great to talk to you too Dan
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I've been great I hope you have been as
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well I have been all right so take us
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first into the book itself and and
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really the kind of the Genesis of why
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you wanted to write about this
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yeah I'd be delighted to you know this
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has been the focus of all my research
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the the topic of how do we create
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positive behavior change it's the reason
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that Angela Duckworth and I co-founded
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the um Behavior change for good
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initiative at Wharton and Penn and at a
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certain point I felt look I've collected
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enough insights and knowledge that
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there's real value to share with the
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world if we can put it all together in a
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digestible format and explain here here
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are the things we've learned that can
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help people make the positive changes
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they want in their lives and that can
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help organizations steer their employees
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and customers towards positive behavior
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change
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and really we're talking about Behavior
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changes that can occur at any point in
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the course of the year in a course of a
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person's life it really kind of you know
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we're constantly kind of looking at
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these potential moments in our lives
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throughout the course of our our time
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here
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absolutely right so there there's
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everything from making a change related
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to my health maybe I want to get in
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shape or start eating differently uh
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maybe I want to quit smoking or I want
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to quit drinking right so those are all
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health behavior changes that are
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important uh to changes around my
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finance I might want to start investing
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I want to set aside something for
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retirement I want to cut back on
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spending so there's Financial changes
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and then of course changes with your
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productivity at work the way that you
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interact with your family uh every kind
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of change that you can think of really
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is what we study and this book is
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designed to help people achieve it for
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themselves or help others achieve those
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kinds of changes well obviously one of
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the ones that you talk about and a lot
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of people talk about ends up being
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around New Year's and the resolutions
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that we make uh that we're gonna do this
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we're gonna do that and maybe we hold
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them for a couple of days after and then
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things kind of dissolve take us into
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that mindset of of people making those
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resolutions and either following through
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the on them or not being able to
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yeah absolutely so first of all let me
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just say that I am actually a big fan of
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New Year's resolutions I think that that
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is that makes me unusual because most
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people write them off and say you know
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this is a whim most of them don't
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succeed uh why would we do this I've
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done research with uh former Wharton PhD
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student Heng Shen Dai who's now a
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professor at UCLA's Anderson School on
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what we call the Fresh Start effect
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along with Jason Reese also we're an
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affiliate and what we have shown is that
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there are moments in our lives like New
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Year's that give us the sense of a new
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beginning and a fresh start and that
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make us feel separated from our past
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failure so on January 1 you can look at
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things that you didn't achieve in the
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last year that you meant to get around
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to you know I wanted to learn Spanish I
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wanted to figure out how to really be on
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time regularly at my meetings I wanted
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to eat healthier and I didn't and I
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failed but that was the old me and this
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is the new me so they create this sense
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of dissociation and it's not just yours
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like I said that's the most famous but
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at the start of a new week the start of
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a new month um following birthdays
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following holidays that we associate
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with Fresh Starts so think Labor Day not
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Valentine's Day what we see in data set
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after data set is that people at those
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moments set goals more often but as you
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point out many of those goals fail and
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so I think while it's exciting and
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promising that these are moments when
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people will be willing to bite off and
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attempt at change that they wouldn't
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normally pursue and that could be useful
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especially if it's a one and done type
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of change right make that important
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appointment uh to get a mammogram for
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instance or set up an auto deduction
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from my paychecks to go put money
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straight into a 401k those kinds of
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things right you can have one moment
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where you're feeling ready and it can
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have long-term consequences but for most
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things a moment of motivation is not
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enough to carry us forward and that's
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really what the rest of my book is about
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is I think one of the key barriers to
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successful change is that most of it is
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I oh I have a goal I'll just get there
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as opposed to thinking strategically
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about what are the obstacles I might
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face and let me make a plan that can
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actually tackle those obstacles goals
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and that's based in science and the
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reason I wrote this book is we now have
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a lot of evidence-based solutions that
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need to be tailored right if the reason
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you're for instance not going to the gym
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is you find it absolutely miserable then
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you need a different solution to get you
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there than if the reason is your life is
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too crowded to fit it in right so
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depending on what the barrier is you
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need different solutions but we have a
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lot to say about that and so once people
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start using the evidence they can make a
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lot more progress with those Fresh Start
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moments how much concern is there though
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if people try to make a change and don't
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succeed and they give up that that
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becomes kind of the pattern that they
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fall into more so than as you said kind
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of looking strategically at ways to be
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able to make sure that you do complete
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the task
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yeah it's a great question and I think
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it's a thing that we often worry about
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is sort of if you
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um look at you know what people say
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commonly they'll say things like oh you
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can't teach an old dog new tricks which
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might suggest that over the course of a
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lifespan it becomes harder to make
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change maybe after multiple failures we
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give up on ourselves for what it's worth
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in our research studies we always look
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at things like
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um you know we've we've developed an
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intervention to try to help people make
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this positive change and we look at does
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uh the effectiveness vary as a function
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of age and we very rarely see that it
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does we we rarely find actually a lot of
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we call it moderation a lot of variables
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a lot of features of a person that seem
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to say oh shoot this intervention only
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works for this type of of person so I
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actually am very optimistic that if
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people are willing to stand up and try
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again
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um they will they will be able to make
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progress and the Fresh Start effect does
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seem to apply pretty broadly as opposed
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to narrowly it's not as if it's only a
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phenomenon we see in our 20s or our 30s
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women once we've been fooled by enough
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New Year's resolutions that didn't work
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out we stopped making them so humans are
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shockingly optimistic and good at I
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think that's what the Fresh Start is
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really about right we keep telling her
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so we're good at sort of tricking
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ourselves into this time will be
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different but that probably is an
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Adaptive trait to be that optimistic and
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ready to try again all right I'll get up
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and start but I'll wait till after I do
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the interview before we start to do it
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all right I promise fair enough you talk
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also in the book about uh kind of the
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Mary Poppins approach to behavior change
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meaning what exactly
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one thing that I think is really
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fascinating and that that leads to this
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name is that uh this comes out of
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research by islet fishbach the
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University of Chicago and Caitlin Wooley
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at Cornell
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um what they've found is that most of us
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when we pursue change are our intuition
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is we should just take the most direct
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approach um the most effective efficient
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path to get to where we want to be so
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say you want to East your math test the
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first approach you'd take would probably
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be to say you know I'm just going to sit
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down and study and I'm not gonna I'm
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gonna block all distractions I'm going
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to do nothing else for the rest of the
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day that's how I'll get there or if you
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want to get in shape you'd say let me
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find the most
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painful workout I could do with the gym
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that will maximally burn calories but
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interestingly what they've shown in the
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research is this is a mistake a small
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subset of people take a different
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approach which is to actually try to
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find the most fun way to study for their
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math test maybe quizzing themselves with
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a friend or uh you know hopping it into
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a Zumba class and it while it may get
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you
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closer to your goal at a slower rate it
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actually ends up being better because
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you persist because you go back to the
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gym after a positive experience you'll
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study for the next test too after an
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enjoyable
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um first few minutes study or you'll
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you'll keep the studying going even late
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into the night if you found a way to do
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it that isn't miserable
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so this persistence is a really
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important part of success and we neglect
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the importance of fun so the Mary
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Poppins effect is really just a
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description of what Mary Poppins sings
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about in the in her famous
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um versus saying a spoonful of sugar
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makes the medicine go down she
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understood and communicated this when it
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comes to children that we actually need
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to find a way to make it enjoyable to
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pursue goals but it turns out that
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adults are wired the same way as kids
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maybe a little bit less uh it's a little
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bit less extreme we have a little bit
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more ability to exert self-control or
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prefrontal for uh cortex is more
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developed but just like kids we are
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present biased which means we care more
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about instant gratification than
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long-term rewards and rather than trying
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to work against that what we need to do
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is lean into it and try to find ways
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that we can make it more enjoyable in
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the moment to do the things that are
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going to help us achieve our goals in
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order to serve um the long-term benefit
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so it's a mistake to constantly be
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looking for the most efficient path to
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achieve your goal because you will quit
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at a higher rate than if you look for a
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path that you will find pleasurable and
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we've done research on a topic called
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Temptation bundling which is
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uh when you find a way to link something
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you find tempting with a chore that you
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would otherwise
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procrastinate on this is a way of using
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that Mary Poppins Insight a spoonful of
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sugar makes the medicine go down for
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instance you only let yourself exercise
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while indulging and watching your
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favorite low brow TV show on Netflix
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that's an example of Temptation bundling
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or you only
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um let yourself listen to your favorite
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podcast while you're doing household
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chores or you only get to eat a really
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unhealthy but delicious meal when
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spending time with a difficult mentee at
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work so those would be Temptation
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bundles and we found in our research
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that through Temptation bundling we can
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help ourselves achieve more it's another
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way of using this Mary Poppins effect so
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also take a little time and talk about
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this concept of the flake out that you
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talk about and really I I mean how you
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can try and go about combating it
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yeah flakeout I think is a vastly
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underestimated problem a lot of our
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goals they just don't stay top of mind
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and as a result we flake out on doing
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things that are are really important to
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us uh because we haven't structured Our
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Lives properly around them so we tend to
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underestimate the importance of this
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issue I'd say it's very closely related
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to forgetting
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um simply you know you meant to vote but
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oh my gosh it slipped off of your to-do
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list or um you meant to get uh That
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vaccine or get your annual checkup or
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take care of this important issue with
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an employee who's been struggling at
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work but you just flaked out on on
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bidding it into your schedule often it's
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one time but highly impactful decisions
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that we flake out on with major
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consequences and uh in general we find
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is that people underestimate this as a
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barrier to follow through on key goals
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but we can combat it using pretty simple
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tools from you know of course the most
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obvious being things like digital
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reminders and calendaring but some of
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the less obvious which I think are also
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important you can um
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actually get better results and there's
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wonderful research by Peter goldwitzer
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of NYU on the fact that simply making if
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then plans where and he calls them
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implementation intentions
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dramatically increase the likelihood we
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follow through so not just saying I plan
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to go to the gym or I plan to schedule
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this meeting but saying if it's 4 P.M on
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a Thursday then I'll be at the gym or uh
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every day after work I will schedule
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time for meditation by having the if
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then component we actually end up seeing
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dramatically higher follow through and
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there's some really wonderful research
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studies that have been done showing that
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we can use this as a tool to nudge
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people towards follow through on
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important behaviors like voter turnout
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vaccination I was involved in one effort
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about a decade ago where we ran a
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randomized controlled trial with a
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company that was trying to encourage
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people to come to an annual flu shot
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clinic where they'd be giving free
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on-site vaccines and what we found is
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sending a reminder that let people know
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the dates and times when they could come
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and the location of free vaccine clinics
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that is useful but we at no cost uh
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increase the effectiveness of that
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reminder by adding a simple prompt for
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people to write the date and time when
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they intended to show up and that that
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simple prompt to make a concrete plan
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led to about a four percentage Point
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increase in vaccinations and these are
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the kinds of things that I think
00:14:02
organizations and individuals tend to
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think you know I don't need to write
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down my plan or prompt someone to Think
00:14:08
Through the date and time why would that
00:14:10
matter and yet making it more concrete
00:14:12
works because
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um first of all that's the way memories
00:14:15
are stored we need a cue that triggers
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the memory so the date and time serves
00:14:20
as a cue when you see that date and time
00:14:22
now you're much more likely to realize
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oh this is when I said I would do X
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because this is how memory is stored
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it's also more likely you literally put
00:14:30
it in your calendar and you now get a
00:14:32
digital or electronic reminder but again
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these are the kinds of things we've done
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experiments where we said to people will
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you pay us to get a reminder for
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instance to follow through on a behavior
00:14:40
you intend to do in fact we even tried
00:14:43
things where they were behaviors people
00:14:44
would get paid to do and people said no
00:14:46
no I don't want to be paying for a
00:14:48
reminder and yet when we automatically
00:14:51
sign people up for reminders and charge
00:14:52
them for them we see higher earnings and
00:14:54
and better follow-through than when
00:14:56
people have the optionality because they
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underestimate the value of such tools
00:15:00
and then there is the problem of
00:15:02
laziness which I think we all at times
00:15:05
kind of fall into for at least a little
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bit
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yes so we all have this issue and I
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actually like I like to say that it's a
00:15:13
it's a a pro of the human operating
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system rather than a con so my
00:15:17
background is in computer science and
00:15:20
computer scientists know that the best
00:15:21
algorithms are efficient lazy algorithms
00:15:23
that take shortcuts rather than
00:15:25
searching every possible solution so
00:15:27
laziness is a good feature for a system
00:15:30
to have built in that you look for the
00:15:32
passive least resistance but when it
00:15:33
comes to achieving goals it of course
00:15:35
can be a problem if we are looking for
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the the fastest route to success
00:15:40
um or the the simplest path so there's
00:15:43
sort of two ways that laziness I think
00:15:45
comes up in the human operating system
00:15:47
and is important to keep in mind and
00:15:48
think about if you want to build
00:15:50
solutions that will help people achieve
00:15:52
their goals the first actually has to do
00:15:54
with a well-studied and pretty well
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known phenomenon which is that we
00:15:57
succumb to defaults we are very
00:15:59
susceptible to whatever is automatic so
00:16:02
if you get a new computer it comes with
00:16:05
a whole bunch of default settings right
00:16:06
a default background default fonts size
00:16:09
and so on and most of us just accept
00:16:11
those and move on and PS that means it's
00:16:14
important to set them wisely in ways
00:16:16
that will set people up for Success
00:16:18
um one of my favorite studies showing
00:16:20
how important it is to set defaults that
00:16:22
people will just passively accept
00:16:24
because they're a bit lazy wisely was
00:16:26
one that was done here at at the
00:16:28
University of Pennsylvania in our
00:16:29
medical system and it involved changing
00:16:32
the way that
00:16:33
drug prescriptions were automatically
00:16:35
sent to pharmacies to prioritize sending
00:16:38
generic drugs so that actually doctors
00:16:40
if they wanted to prescribe a brand name
00:16:42
drug let's say Lipitor which is
00:16:44
chemically identical to its generic
00:16:46
cousin
00:16:48
um but much more expensive because it's
00:16:50
a brand name drug if you want to instead
00:16:53
see a higher rate of prescribing
00:16:55
generics which all doctors and insurers
00:16:57
agree is better there's higher
00:16:58
compliance by patients when their drugs
00:17:01
are cheaper and every and everyone saves
00:17:03
money so what they did is they just made
00:17:05
that the default so instead of the
00:17:06
doctor having to remember to prescribe
00:17:08
the generic they remember the brand name
00:17:10
they type in Lipitor but unless they
00:17:12
check a box saying no I really mean
00:17:13
Lipitor not the generic the generic was
00:17:16
automatically sent to the to the um
00:17:19
Pharmacy that was filling the drugs and
00:17:21
this overnight made ensured that Penn
00:17:25
Medicine was one of the best
00:17:28
hospitals in the area on generic
00:17:31
prescriptions they went from something
00:17:32
like 75 percent of drugs being
00:17:34
prescribed as generics to almost 100
00:17:36
percent and there was one um One Drug
00:17:40
where this didn't work and was actually
00:17:41
a drug where the generic and the uh and
00:17:44
the brand name were different and there
00:17:46
were chemical differences so you didn't
00:17:47
see this bomb it's a really nice
00:17:49
illustration but it basically says any
00:17:50
time you can set a wise default that's
00:17:53
really important for setting yourself up
00:17:55
for Success so this for an individual
00:17:57
could be something like I stock my
00:17:58
pantry only with healthy snacks so that
00:18:00
the default snack is something that's
00:18:02
easier I set my
00:18:04
um default website to be the New York
00:18:06
Times as opposed to Facebook so I spend
00:18:08
less time on social media so those are
00:18:10
sort of personal defaults or
00:18:11
organizations can have wise defaults
00:18:13
that they set to try to support success
00:18:15
in the workplace whether that's we by
00:18:18
default don't have meetings from nine to
00:18:19
ten you have to override something in
00:18:21
order to make that possible so everyone
00:18:22
starts with focused work
00:18:25
um or or settings and computers settings
00:18:27
with in terms of retirement savings
00:18:29
defaulting everyone into enroll in a
00:18:31
401k so that that would be the first way
00:18:34
so the other way in which defaults are I
00:18:37
think important is that um we are have
00:18:39
habit creatures of habit we build habits
00:18:42
in order to
00:18:43
um essentially short circuit having to
00:18:46
think deeply about decisions right so
00:18:48
it's very helpful not to have to think
00:18:50
every morning about shampooing your hair
00:18:52
brushing your teeth what you'll eat for
00:18:53
breakfast you form some habits around
00:18:55
that and as a result you just have a
00:18:57
shortcut you don't have to process
00:18:58
deeply oh what what will I do but habits
00:19:01
can be harmful if they're not supporting
00:19:03
your goals so there is a whole large
00:19:05
literature on how do we intentionally
00:19:07
form good habits and I think there's
00:19:09
been some wonderful books that that
00:19:11
cover this quite nicely like
00:19:13
um the The Power of Habit by Charles
00:19:16
duhigg Atomic habits
00:19:18
um by James clear and good habits bad
00:19:21
habits by Wendy wood the simple story is
00:19:24
that as with animals humans are um sort
00:19:29
of repeat when we repeat a behavior and
00:19:31
are rewarded for it over time it becomes
00:19:34
more habituated the more frequently you
00:19:36
can repeat the set of actions it's
00:19:38
almost like practice right this is how
00:19:40
you learn the piano you sit down you
00:19:41
practice you repeat we can do the same
00:19:43
thing with habits trying to save or form
00:19:45
a habit around exercise
00:19:47
research shows that if we pay people to
00:19:49
go to the gym eight times in a month as
00:19:51
opposed to just once and then take
00:19:53
payments away and look what happens
00:19:54
after now there's no reward we see the
00:19:56
people who are paid to go repeatedly
00:19:58
habituate and continue to exercise at a
00:20:00
higher rate than people who were only
00:20:01
rewarded for going once even though
00:20:03
there's no longer any reason to do it so
00:20:05
the key idea here is if you have um the
00:20:07
desire to form a habit you want to think
00:20:10
of it like practicing a new skill you
00:20:12
want to try to repeat it as frequently
00:20:13
as possible find a way to reward
00:20:15
yourself that might be through
00:20:16
Temptation bundling making it fun or it
00:20:18
might be by announcing to friends that
00:20:20
you're doing this simply tracking your
00:20:22
progress and and over the course of that
00:20:25
repetition you're going to build
00:20:27
something that starts to feel more
00:20:28
habitual and become more natural you may
00:20:30
want to piggyback it on something you
00:20:32
already do having a a time for instance
00:20:35
you know there's research showing that
00:20:37
if you piggyback flossing habits on
00:20:40
after you brush your teeth that's
00:20:42
actually more effective than just saying
00:20:44
I'm going to floss or trying to floss
00:20:45
before you remember to to brush your
00:20:47
teeth so tying it to something you
00:20:49
already do can other also be a useful
00:20:51
tool final question for you what areas
00:20:54
then with all this work you've done in
00:20:56
your career around Behavior change what
00:20:59
still is out there what what are you
00:21:01
looking at next that is kind of the next
00:21:04
Hill to climb
00:21:06
some of the most exciting work I think
00:21:08
and behavior change that we've done and
00:21:10
that others have done shows the power of
00:21:12
our social networks and influencing our
00:21:15
behaviors the people around us show us
00:21:17
what's possible they show us how to
00:21:19
achieve
00:21:20
um and Signal what's appropriate there's
00:21:22
some really wonderful research that's
00:21:24
been done by Scott Carrell at the
00:21:27
University of California showing that uh
00:21:30
for instance the randomly assigned
00:21:32
college roommate you get affects your
00:21:34
grade because the person if if you end
00:21:37
up with someone who is essentially a
00:21:38
better student you end up
00:21:41
hey they don't go out on Thursdays and
00:21:43
Fridays they study like this and and you
00:21:44
do too but someone who was less studious
00:21:47
oh they do go out and party and maybe
00:21:49
that's what I should be doing so we're
00:21:51
really shaped by these random
00:21:54
allocations of our compatriots and what
00:21:56
I am looking at at the behavior change
00:21:58
for good initiative in collaboration
00:21:59
with Angela Duckworth who's my key
00:22:02
partner in crime on this is how can we
00:22:04
use that insight to build better social
00:22:07
interventions that that help connect
00:22:09
people with peers who have shared goals
00:22:11
and help facilitate
00:22:14
um pure interactions that that increase
00:22:17
success so we're doing work right now in
00:22:19
the space of Education around this to
00:22:21
try to see if we can leverage purefx to
00:22:23
improve student outcomes and reduce
00:22:24
student Dropout from school
00:22:27
um at the college level but we're also
00:22:29
interested in in workplace pure effects
00:22:32
and generally leveraging this power of
00:22:34
of groups as opposed to Simply studying
00:22:37
individuals and how we can help people
00:22:39
um in isolation
00:22:41
Katie always great to talk with you
00:22:43
thanks very much for your time today
00:22:44
thank you so much for for taking the
00:22:47
time to speak it's always a pleasure on
00:22:48
my end as well you got it Wharton's
00:22:50
Katie milkman
00:22:52
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:22:53
effect we hope you found this episode
00:22:55
informative and engaging don't forget to
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00:23:00
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Insight from the warden School
