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our guests today are Nancy Rothbart
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who's the chair of the management
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department at Wharton and Julianna
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polymer a doctoral candidate at Wharton
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whose research focuses on organizational
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behavior we're going to talk with them
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today about their paper which is titled
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friends without benefits understanding
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the dark side of workplace friendships
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Julianne and Nancy thank you so much for
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joining us at knowledge at Wharton
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thanks Michael thanks for having us so
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all of us spend such a lot of time at
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work and one would assume that having
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friendly relations with our co-workers
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is overall a good thing what led you to
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explore the dark side of workplace
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friendships Julianne would you like to
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start off in that sure yeah it's funny
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that you say that that was sort of an
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inspiration for thinking about the
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complexities because so many people
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assume that it's just sort of uniformly
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a good thing and so the inspiration for
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this paper came out as actually taking a
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course with Nancy on identity in
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organizations and this research would
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have tapped a sweet spot between a gap I
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saw in research that's been done and
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observations I made I saw in the real
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world so basically most of the work that
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talked about the way relationships
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outside of work influence your work were
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focused on family and there was almost
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no research looking at the influence of
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friendships and for me at the time I was
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in my mid-20s a lot of my friend you
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know none of my friends were married
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none of them had kids and the topic of
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conversation was constantly friendships
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and how their friendships at work were
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both really enriching and life-giving
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and also sort of exceedingly complex and
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even led some people to want to switch
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organizations at times and so for me
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this was fascinating and I saw an
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opportunity to work with Nancy to sort
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of dig into you know friendship at work
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more deeply and not only from this sort
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of it's uniformly good standpoint but
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what are some of the challenges and
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complexities that accompany friendship
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and what I think is so fascinating about
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this question is that of course we don't
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mean to suggest that friendship is not a
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good thing
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right it French
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that work can be really really valuable
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to people but what is really fascinating
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to us is that it's not this uniformly
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good thing where there are these
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complexities there are these tensions
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that arise because of a number of
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features of organizational life which
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make friendship more difficult to
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navigate in the workplace and so what we
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did was we started to try to explore the
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juxtaposition between some of these
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tensions and and with the features of
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organizational life and in particular
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what we looked at was the fact that
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friendship has this informal quality to
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it this voluntary nature to it it has
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aspects where really the primary goals
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are relational and socio-emotional and
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it you know it really and it really has
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a dynamic which involves communal types
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of exchange based norms where you know
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need be you know if I need you you're
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gonna you're gonna respond whereas a lot
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of features of organizations really
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focus on things like formal roles or you
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know you can't always control who you're
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put together with in a group with you
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you have this involuntary relationships
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that sometimes are necessitated there
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are lots of instrumental goals that you
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need to pursue not necessarily
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relational goals to achieve
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organizational outcomes and you have a
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lot of exchange based or reciprocity
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norms that really dominate a lot of
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times rather than need based norms and
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so these different features of
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organizational I think they sort of
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clash sometimes with friendship and so
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navigating how to be a good friend
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within an organizational context can be
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really challenging and it does it and
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also has implications for other aspects
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of the organization
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so those were the things that we really
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were curious to explore more deeply what
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are some insights that turned up as you
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did went about your research yeah
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absolutely so so one of the insights was
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kind of what needs you just described
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which is that sort of the defining
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features of friendship can be
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fundamentally in conflict with with the
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defining features of organizational life
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and that sort of struck us as you know
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you see more and more organizations
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famously you know being proponents of
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friendship and encouraging friendship
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and bringing you know foosball tables in
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and all these sort of things that are
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supposed to bring people closer and as
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Nancy said you know we think that that's
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a good thing and more and more sort of
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an inevitable aspect of organizations
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and you know it's not it's no longer is
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it okay to just assume that you'll show
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up to work and leave and and not relate
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with people in most instances and so you
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know what one one insight basically
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can't you know that came up is just that
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we need to think about how to manage
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these relationships more effectively
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given their inevitability I don't know
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if you want and you know a couple of
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other things one of the things that's
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really fascinating to us is that while
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friendship can have really a lot of
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individual benefits to people too much
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friendship can also lead to distraction
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in the workplace it can lead to needing
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to engage with other people in a way
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that can be emotionally taxing to you if
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it's too deep at one point we had a line
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in the paper in too deep right so
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sometimes you you kind of go into a
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relationship and you get caught up in
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some of the dynamics and it can be
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really distracting to you another
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another insight that we had was that
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when you are really close friends with
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people that can sometimes make it
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difficult to make hard decisions and
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there's a lot of research which shows
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that in group decision-making
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of situations interacting with people
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who are really similar to you and who
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you like a lot that makes it hard
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sometimes to raise those hard questions
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and to deliberate really carefully and
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to not just kind of come to a quick and
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easy decision but to really slog through
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some some tough stuff and so you know
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those kinds of challenges can occur as
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well so what might be an example yeah
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for conflict of a conflict so you know
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if you're if you're in a group and
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you're you're trying to make a hard
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decision about you know perhaps where to
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allocate you know some of your budget or
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or what have you and you know different
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people might have different pieces of
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information or they may have different
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perspectives on it but if they're
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friends it can be really hard to go
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against somebody who's advocating really
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strongly for one particular position
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because they might get mad at you and so
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you know you might hold back even though
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you believe there's another direction
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that might be better for the
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organization you might not want to
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offend a friend you don't want it you
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don't want to step on their toes and so
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sometimes that causes us to pull back
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and not really hash things out so that
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we can really see which of these options
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might be better and so there is there is
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quite a bit of research that shows that
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people do pull back in those kinds of
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circumstances and so having these really
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close bonds can be really challenging
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now what we also argue in this paper is
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that when you're really close with
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people truly truly close so if you're
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you know at an extreme you know level of
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friendship that gets ameliorated a
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little bit because you know you can you
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fight with your family you fight with
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your friends and you can make up with
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them and it's okay it's the it's sort of
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the middle ground where you're kind of
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friends with people but your
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relationship isn't so secure that you
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know it can withstand the fight that you
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pull back and so you know there's a
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little bit of a caveat there so there's
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a there's a curvilinear effect that we
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described that we think is really
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important to consider and there's
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another category
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of challenges that we also highlight in
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the paper which is that sometimes when
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there's the there are a lot of close
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friendship relationships in an
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organization that becomes visible to
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other people and if if there are certain
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relationships that are certain people
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who are close and other people who are
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not close then the people who are on the
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outside looking in it can get really
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upset and so it's the classic clique
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type of situation where you know what
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Giuliana and I described the high school
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cafeteria right it's the classic you
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know you know you want to be in the
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in-group and you're not and kind of see
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them around the table and that's really
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upsetting and so sometimes strong
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friendships can have this really really
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inadvertent negative effect not on the
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people within the friendship but on the
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other people in the organization who
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feel excluded yeah yeah I think just to
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sum up what what Nancy beautifully
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describes you know so it's a part of art
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one of our core insights was when
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friendships are considered to be sort of
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uniformly positive it's often from the
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perspective of an individual and does
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this feel really great you know - it
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feels awesome to connect with people it
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probably makes you want to show up to
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work you know it makes things fun but
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you really need to consider these sort
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of other levels of analysis you know
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where might not be great for group
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outcomes it might not be getting great
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for organizational outcomes so really
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taking a more holistic look at the
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impact of what might seem like a great
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individual relationship and that can
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cascade in sort of negative ways and
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what people need to do is they need to
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really think about this carefully so you
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know if you're in this really close
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friendship you need to be aware of the
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impact that's having on other people
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right and you need to be aware that
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other people might be feeling excluded
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or you might you know need to think
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about being more deliberately inclusive
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of other people things like that are
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really important
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to keep in mind because you know a lot
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of times you're in this bubble of the
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friendship and you're just not aware of
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the impact it's having on these other
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organizational outcomes how you see the
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role of Technology in all this because
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technology seems to have has the effect
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of blurring the boundaries to some
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extent between personal and professional
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relationships so for example there are
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you know a number of my colleagues who
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are also my friends on social media now
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is this necessarily a good thing or a
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bad thing or both you've clearly read
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our paper and I know our research and
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know the things that are on our minds so
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this is something that is so so
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centrally on our minds because it's it's
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really all around us and we think it's
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changing the dynamic of how people are
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interacting at work and so this was a
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very big theme for us as we explored
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this question and so I'm gonna turn it
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to Julianna to give some thoughts and
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then all I'll show ya so it's
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interesting how you said blurring the
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boundaries because we thought a lot
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about this and that's sort of the
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language that people usually use when
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they when they talk about the the
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blurring of professional and personal
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boundaries and when we really thought
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about sort of what the correct analogy
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was we came up with this idea of
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boundary transparency right where social
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media sort of provides this window into
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your personal life you know whether it's
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with your kids or you know the stuff
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you're doing on the weekend or you know
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god forbid someone wants to go back and
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look at what you're doing ten years ago
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you know in your photos so it's this
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really something that didn't exist maybe
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five or ten years ago in terms of just
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this one click connecting with with a
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colleague that almost seems mindless for
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many people and it really it really is
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the sort of floodgate of disclosure in
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this different form in this multimedia
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form that can really bring you closer
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but also maybe lead to some discoveries
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that that you kind of wish you didn't
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know and absolutely I think that what we
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fought what we feel is really critical
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as an insight about social
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and technology visa vie friendship at
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work is that it's it's amplifying a lot
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of these dark sides because it's I mean
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it's also amplifying the the positives
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right it's allowing us to connect to
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people in ways that and more deeply
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right but that also leads to this
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inadvertent some some inadvertent
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challenges that we've already been
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discussing and highlight some of them so
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for example when you're connected to
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somebody on social media that affords
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you a window into their into their
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personal life but it also makes it more
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difficult for you to tailor some of
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those disclosures in a way that is more
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targeted to the person you're talking to
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so if I post my pictures from my
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vacation on social media and I'm
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connected with people at work they all
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know that I was in France on spring
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break
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and you know that I have my kids there
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and they've you know they might have
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seen you know my my kids in some
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not-so-great situations right or are
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they you know they might have they met
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and they and they they'll be aware right
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that I wasn't working for the last week
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and that might be okay you know but
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maybe somebody was really annoyed at me
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because they needed me for something and
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I would they think I was just lalala off
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in France you know and on vacation and
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they really needed me for something so
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you know and that's like a very very
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bland kind of example of what people
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might post right you know people also
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post opinions and those opinions may not
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be shared by everyone and so you know
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these kinds of disclosures on social
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media and through the kinds of
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technologies that we have available the
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connection technologies we have
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available are really making it more
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difficult to navigate friendships in
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more one-on-one ways
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because you have this broad this broad
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disclosure - or this disclosure to a
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broad or group of people that's not as
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targeted yeah yeah and we I'll just say
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one more thing you know we really know
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Nancy mentioned that they that social
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media sir - amplified the specific
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Darkseid's that we came up with for
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example we you know she discussed how
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the high school cafeteria right and you
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can see in person you know the cleats
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that are forming and and where you stand
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and social media is is a whole new you
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know people are posting photos you know
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I've certainly I've experienced I'm sure
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you guys have experienced oh you know
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these co-workers went and hung out
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without me and and that might be you
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know that might be a surprising thing
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you might not have even seen that cleek
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sort of in person in the office so
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that's an example of how social media
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can really amplify some of these
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existing Darkseid's that have always
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been there but but sort of give them new
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new light new life and again I think
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that it's it's not always a bad thing so
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we want to emphasize that right so
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sometimes when you see you have a window
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into somebody's personal life you get to
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know them more as a person and you have
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more context for what's going on with
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them you know you may understand that
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you know they were slow to respond an
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email but they've just posted that they
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had you know I you know their their
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family member was ill right and so you
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know you may have much more insight and
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you can kind of you can you can give
00:17:06
them a break because you have more
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understanding of what's going on in
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their life so you know there can be
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really positive things to this - and we
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don't mean to suggest that it's all
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negative so be based on everything
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you've said so far how do you think
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manager should enhance the benefits
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which are many of workplace friendships
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while managing the downside
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what would you be revised to them that
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is a great question you want to start
00:17:38
sure yeah so you know some of the stuff
00:17:41
we've already discussed is you know we
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think first just managers and leaders
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having awareness
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of these that these challenges can even
00:17:50
arise you know I think that that that's
00:17:52
kind of the first step to you know okay
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if you're if you're you know the CEO of
00:17:58
some startup and you really want to you
00:18:01
know create this collegial culture and
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that's wonderful you know you might want
00:18:05
to also put some things in place to
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ensure that these dark cents don't occur
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so you know perhaps every people maybe
00:18:12
don't choose their own teams but you
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have sort of people from different
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different areas of the organization on
00:18:17
teams to guard against challenges with
00:18:20
decision making or you know for example
00:18:23
I know like the design firm IDEO one
00:18:26
thing that they do is they have sort of
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cross-functional lunches or events once
00:18:30
a week where you really encourage people
00:18:32
who won't usually be interacting with
00:18:34
each other might not be as similar to
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ensure that you're not getting that sort
00:18:39
of click silo effect so again yeah we're
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not saying you shouldn't encourage
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friendship but but an awareness of the
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dark sides and how to sort of guard
00:18:48
against them structurally within the
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organization is a really great thing
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that managers can do so it's also really
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important for individuals to set
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boundaries and so thinking about how
00:19:00
they how they interact with their
00:19:02
friends sometimes it's really important
00:19:04
to set expectations so you know you
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might be very close friends with
00:19:07
somebody but we have expectations that
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when we're in a meeting
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we are gonna challenge each other and
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we're gonna talk about this explicitly
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up front so that you know I'm not you
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know I'm not doing this to because
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because I'm annoyed at you I'm doing
00:19:23
this because this is what our job is a
00:19:26
second a second thing that you might
00:19:28
want to really think about from an
00:19:29
individual perspective in terms of
00:19:30
setting some boundaries is thinking
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about you you might be great friends
00:19:35
with somebody but maybe you set times to
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catch up with them about various things
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rather than then having them interrupt
00:19:43
you when you're trying to get your own
00:19:45
work done right so setting up lunches
00:19:48
with them or having coffee or having a
00:19:50
certain time of the day where you do
00:19:52
catch ups and so those are really
00:19:54
important types of rules if you will
00:19:58
that you need to adopt
00:20:01
with your friends to manage that
00:20:03
friendship so that doesn't become
00:20:04
individually taxing to you as well now
00:20:08
was there anything that surprised you as
00:20:09
he went about to research I think that
00:20:13
what surprised us is that there's been
00:20:17
so little done on friendship at work um
00:20:21
I mean that was that was amazing to us
00:20:23
and we we really scoured the literature
00:20:25
to find studies on this topic and you
00:20:29
know there was one study that we found
00:20:31
it which was very interesting that
00:20:33
looked at how you know friendship was
00:20:35
important but it had you know these
00:20:37
costs in terms of being emotionally
00:20:39
taxing to people and that was really
00:20:41
great because that study helped us to
00:20:43
really think about both the positives
00:20:45
and the bit and the negatives of
00:20:47
friendship at work but there were very
00:20:49
very few studies that explicitly looked
00:20:52
at friendship and it almost seemed like
00:20:54
it was a taboo for people to to be even
00:20:58
asking this question and that was
00:21:00
fascinating to us right because
00:21:02
friendship is really all around us at
00:21:04
work we spend a tremendous amount of our
00:21:06
time at work and and nowadays with with
00:21:12
technology nection technology and online
00:21:14
social media it's really that that line
00:21:17
between work and and personal is
00:21:19
becoming even more and more blurred and
00:21:21
so friendship is really an inevitable
00:21:25
part of the workplace and so the fact
00:21:27
that they were so little that we found
00:21:29
on it was a little bit surprising to us
00:21:32
yeah and to build off of that idea you
00:21:36
know the the work that did exist largely
00:21:38
just sort of didn't dig into the
00:21:41
complexities of of what friendship is
00:21:43
what it entails what differentiates it
00:21:46
from say a mentoring relationship or you
00:21:48
know just a casual acquaintance so so
00:21:51
part of the work that we did in this
00:21:53
paper was to say well what are these
00:21:55
core features that differentiate
00:21:56
friendship from other kinds of sort of
00:21:58
friendly relationships or mentoring
00:21:59
relationships and what are the unique
00:22:02
challenges that are eyes from from those
00:22:05
features and then we touched on this a
00:22:07
little bit but again you know there's
00:22:10
been very little distinction between
00:22:11
sort of levels of friendship right so
00:22:15
closeness maturity status differentials
00:22:18
in friendship and so we tried to touch
00:22:19
upon that and our paper to say you know
00:22:22
how how does for example a friendship
00:22:26
between a boss and subordinate differ
00:22:28
from a peer relationship how does a
00:22:30
friendship that's you know you've known
00:22:33
this person for 10 years differ from a
00:22:36
friendship that's burgeoning in the
00:22:37
first week so so we saw our core
00:22:40
contribution as as also digging into
00:22:42
those complexities and same friendships
00:22:45
different and they're all these
00:22:46
different flavors of friendship that
00:22:48
that can really influence outcomes and
00:22:50
to build on that a little bit I think
00:22:52
what's also really important for example
00:22:53
when you do have a friendship across
00:22:56
hierarchical lines which i think is
00:22:58
something that you know sometimes we see
00:23:00
is you've got to really be much more
00:23:04
vigilant about how it appears to other
00:23:07
people and so thinking about being very
00:23:12
careful about process and what's called
00:23:16
procedural justice right using
00:23:19
structures and processes and making very
00:23:22
explicit your decision-making criteria
00:23:24
becomes very very important when you
00:23:27
have people who are friends across
00:23:29
hierarchical lines because other people
00:23:31
looking in or judging and they're
00:23:34
usually looking at it and thinking that
00:23:37
the person who's the subordinate is
00:23:40
getting favoritism and so trying to
00:23:43
manage that is really critical if you've
00:23:47
got a friendship that crosses those
00:23:48
hierarchical lines as an example to wind
00:23:54
up what kind of questions for future
00:23:56
research they did come up as you were
00:23:59
going about your your studies and any
00:24:02
thoughts on that yeah I mean you know
00:24:05
building on what we just talked about
00:24:06
there's so little research and so much
00:24:08
more to be done in this area so we
00:24:10
thought that was you know there's so
00:24:11
many exciting avenues for future
00:24:13
research you know one domain is is that
00:24:18
you know the workplaces are really
00:24:19
changing and a much you know this is
00:24:22
true of a lot of research but kind of is
00:24:25
built on the idea of Western
00:24:27
educated you know predominantly white
00:24:29
male cultures and and so we think a
00:24:31
promising future direction is to think
00:24:33
about sort of the individual and then
00:24:36
organizational culture of you know the
00:24:39
people that better in the business and
00:24:41
and thinking about how that impacts
00:24:43
outcomes of friendships so for example
00:24:45
women might be more communal in their
00:24:47
modes of relating and be able to sort of
00:24:48
navigate this tension a little bit more
00:24:51
effectively or perhaps not you know we
00:24:52
don't really know or you know similarly
00:24:54
cultures that are known to be more
00:24:57
communal and their modes of relating you
00:24:58
know Asian cultures Latin American
00:25:00
cultures might have a different approach
00:25:01
to the sort of individualistic American
00:25:06
organization so we think that's a great
00:25:08
area for future research and we also
00:25:10
think that it's it would be really
00:25:12
interesting to look at these aspects of
00:25:15
social media and technology because we
00:25:18
think that that is a really really
00:25:21
important new way of relating that we
00:25:23
don't understand very well and so that's
00:25:26
something that fascinates both of us and
00:25:28
also this you know this question that
00:25:31
Giuliana is exploring this more in her
00:25:33
dissertation work is you know this
00:25:35
question of authenticity and you know
00:25:37
how do you relate authentically to
00:25:39
people and and when do they perceive you
00:25:42
to be you know a genuine the genuine
00:25:47
article right somebody who is is
00:25:50
yourself at work and and I think that
00:25:53
friendship and how that plays out in the
00:25:56
workplace comes in as well in terms of
00:26:00
that that question all sounds very very
00:26:04
fascinating so hope we'll get chance to
00:26:06
talk about that again in the future well
00:26:09
auntie Giuliana thank you so much for
00:26:11
speaking with knowledge at Wharton today
00:26:12
thank you
00:26:13
it's been wonderful
00:26:17
for more insight from knowledge at
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