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[Music]
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this is pete fader here the francis and
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paiwan cha professor of marketing at the
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wharton school of the university of
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pennsylvania
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welcome to the fifth in an ongoing
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series of meet the authors conversations
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that i've been having with various
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colleagues here from the wharton school
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let's think uh number one we started off
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in january with my marketing colleague
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michael platt talking about the leader's
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brain
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in march we stayed with marketing then
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it was jonah berger talking about the
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catalyst in may katie milkman former
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operations information decisions
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department spoke about how to change
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in june it was former colleague mauro
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gian now the dean at the judge school
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over at cambridge talking about the
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platform paradox but today
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we turn to the management department
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where it is my pleasure my privilege to
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be talking to another peter peter
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capelli the george w taylor professor of
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management uh here at wharton director
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of wharton center for human resources
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we're going to be talking about uh the
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future of the office
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work from home remote work and the hard
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choices we all face
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uh peter for years you've been studying
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all the different uh forces shaping and
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changing our workplace uh it's something
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you've been
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really deep into for a long time but
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is it fair to say that nothing has
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impacted quite like covet
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yeah i think that's right you know
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there's a flavor of the month feel to
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workplace issues a lot of it is pushed
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by people who've got some
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financial interest they're selling a
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problem and selling a solution so we've
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seen a lot of you know we're running out
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of people now we've got too many people
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sort of stories but you know covet was
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this enormous experiment that was pushed
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on us
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you know march last year
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we had 60 million people out of work
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it's just amazing and if you had told me
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we wouldn't be back in our offices for
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more than a year if you told me that
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then honestly i would have said we'll be
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living in caves and burning furniture
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for heat you know it's amazing that we
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survived i mean it's it's just an
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astonishing story and so with that in
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mind you
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you're kind of going out on a limb i
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mean you wrote this book back in let me
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think 2021
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when as as you said we thought this
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would all be over by the time we reached
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november um so it's so it's pretty bold
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to go out there and kind of uh offer
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observations and statements and
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predictions so tell us a little bit
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about your motivations for doing so what
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the process was like and kind of how you
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feel it's gone
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well i guess the good news is it wasn't
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a very long book so
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it didn't take all that long to write it
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i discovered
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that i was basically being asked to talk
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about this
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all the time and of course the
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event that was triggering this is that
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40 of americans were working remotely
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mainly from home and 70 percent of
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people who could work from home because
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of the nature of their work were in fact
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working from home so we were running
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this big experiment
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and the results are going to matter for
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a long time
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it turned out that i figured that you
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know we'd probably be starting back to
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the office but you'll recall
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you know the discussion that we'd be
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back by labor day but they meant labor
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day 2020 and then it was labor day 2021
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and we're still not back right so
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the pandemic is the gift that keeps on
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giving for topics like this because
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companies the very least now have and
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and individuals have the opportunity to
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think about this
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uh a little more because it's not going
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to be a surprise right that we're going
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to have to decide
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particularly whether to bring people
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back or keep them home or do something
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different
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indeed and and so
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what would be as as you look back at the
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book now you know a few months after
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writing it and of course it was
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published fairly recently um what would
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be i'm looking for and i told you so
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that you can offer as well as a uh
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something that that surprised you uh
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that you might have you know said or
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written differently
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well i think the big aha in the from the
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book which was just an observation
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is that
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working from home during a pandemic
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doesn't tell you much about what it
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would be like to work from home
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after a pandemic and
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you know i didn't really realize how
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many studies had been done
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about remote work before the pandemic
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and so that was a that was sort of a bit
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of an aha i guess the thing that
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has surprised me in terms of
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developments is
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partly to see
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employers so all over the place
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i mean most are doing
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frankly what employers typically do
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which is perfectly sensible and that is
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to wait and see what everybody else does
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but the problem is you can't
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keep doing that i mean to not decide is
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deciding here right if you keep
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everybody at home
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you're sort of deciding
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i think the
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the one development which is the
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weirdest i think is
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this discovery that um
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the silicon valley companies in
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particular
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are
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trying to make people pay to work from
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home right they're going to cut your pay
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if you work remotely
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that was a surprise and that wasn't the
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initial announcement right that kind of
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sneaked in on people a little later and
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that's a quirky one and that's
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what's kind of novel i didn't anticipate
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that was going to happen absolutely yeah
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and so there's just so much we can say i
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have a whole ton of questions for you
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but love to get some questions from the
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the folks uh listening in on the
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conversation i think so many people have
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different perspectives on their own
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experience and getting back to work and
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their experience about getting others to
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come on back so so please enter your
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questions through whatever platform
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you're on uh but i i got a bunch more
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for peter over here so superior as we as
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we go from from the book itself they
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said that some of the surprises that
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you're just referring to you know as
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we're now
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moving forward um so like what what are
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you what's top of mind for you these
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days
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i think uh you know the issue that
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everyone is talking about now
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is
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this issue of uh
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what's the current state of the labor
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market
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which is kind of related to work from
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home
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but kind of not and this is another one
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of these stories which turns out not to
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be quite true this is the great
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resignation story right
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and if you actually look at the data
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the
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average turnover in the u.s right now
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the last month
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uh which available i think it's i think
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is actually still august data is 2.9
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of the current employees have turned
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over in that month over
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you know across the economy
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which they said you know the claim is
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it's the biggest number ever that's not
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true
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uh it is the biggest number since they
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collected that set of data which goes
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back 20 years so it's the biggest number
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in 20 years
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but if you looked before the pandemic
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the number was 2.6 percent so we've gone
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from 2.6
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to 2.9
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is that a huge increase
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i don't think so i mean what drives
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quitting typically is people quit to
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take jobs elsewhere so another kind of
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myth is that
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the people who are quitting are going
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home
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to practice yoga there's no evidence for
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that i mean the typical quitter
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immediately moves to another job
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and there's every reason to think that's
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what's going on now
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the surprising thing
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is if you look at data and some of this
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data comes from the folks that indeed
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who did some surveys of these folks if
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you look at unemployed people
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unemployed people say who are not
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looking actively say one reason is fear
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of covid but the biggest reason is
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actually that they think
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better jobs are coming
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and that's partly because of all the
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noise and the press about oh my god
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wages are going up it's people are dead
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scrambling for jobs etc or workers and
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it turns out our wages going up they're
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not really so if you looked at the pay
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increases or pay levels in september of
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this year
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they're down about
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a tenth of a percent from last year at
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this time right so wages at least real
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wages i should say so relative to
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inflation they're not going up they're
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actually falling behind
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so that's probably not true either
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really surprising thing to me though is
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if you look at people who sort of have
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jobs already which account for most of
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the people who take new jobs
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they're not searching very much so a lot
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of people are sitting on their hands
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waiting
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maybe they're waiting for covid to tail
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off maybe they're waiting to see what
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employers are going to offer
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particularly on work from home which a
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lot of people care about because most
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employers are not saying yet so we might
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be stuck in a little
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you know equilibrium here where
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everybody's waiting to see what
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everybody else is going to do and
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nobody's doing anything and what's your
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sense that
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really all of this is speculative and
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you're bringing about as much data
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experience inside as anyone but what's
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your sense until we reach either a new
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equilibrium or perhaps the old
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equilibrium in terms of of people going
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in and out of the drop market
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well i think um i think the employers
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are kind of losing patience with a lot
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of a work from home
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enthusiasm
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so if you look at survey data now on
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what employers or rather what executives
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say
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versus what
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regular employees say regular employees
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are still really interested in some
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opportunities to work more remotely
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executives are less interested in that
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and are more interested in getting
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people back into the office and and
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getting going so you know my sense is on
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the labor market thing
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this is going to write itself i think
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reasonably
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quickly what happened the whole problem
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was caused by the fact that most
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employers waited until the last minute
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to try to backfill all the positions
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that they had emptied out because of the
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downturn associated with kovitt but you
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could see
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the need coming right because you could
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tell when the restrictions were going to
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be lifted it wasn't a surprise and yet
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for the most part most employers waited
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until the restrictions were lifted so
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they're all trying to hire at once and
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they're all trying to hire the same
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people particularly low-wage
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hourly sorts of relatively unskilled
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folks that's the big thing and it's the
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reason why the vacancy level is so high
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people are coming back into the job
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market
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it's just they're not coming back at the
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pace at which all these new jobs flooded
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in all at once
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very interesting what about the
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differential impact on different kinds
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of subgroups whether it's male versus
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female young versus old blue versus
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white collar do you see any interesting
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patterns there
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well there's some issues if you're an
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employer you should think about and you
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know the big one is disparate impact as
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we say in employment law so you know if
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you think about okay we're going to
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offer remote for remote work
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opportunities for people but you got to
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raise your hand and do it
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and the first thing that does is it
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creates
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two tiers right you got one group of
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people in the office hanging out with
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the bosses you got another one who's
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working remotely
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one of the things we know from prior
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research the people working remotely
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don't do as well they don't get promoted
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as often as quickly their careers suffer
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it's not a big surprise right
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if you're closer to the power you're
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probably going to do better
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the people who are probably going to
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raise their hand more often
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to work remotely are people with
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caregiving responsibilities and they
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tend to be
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disproportionately women so you're going
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to set up this program for a group
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that's going to be disproportionately
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women
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they're going to have worse labor market
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outcomes
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this really looks like disparate impact
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if you're a plaintiff lawyer if you're
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an employer you better think about
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you know how you're going to deal with
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these challenges because they're
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probably going to come
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and we're seeing uh just
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again as you've said now a couple of
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times
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uh companies are unwilling to or unable
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to kind of nail down a specific in fact
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i'm thinking of amazon
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where you know in the book you actually
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took a you know said amazon's taking
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will take a fairly strong stand but then
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just a couple of weeks ago andy jassy
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said you know each group can figure out
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on on its own
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uh is that kind of exceptional rule
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uh i think
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i think if you're an employer there are
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some real risks to telling every group
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just do whatever you want we kind of had
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that before
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um you know there was a lot more work
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from home than we might want to admit a
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lot of it was under the table
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you know people had deals with their
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supervisors to cut out early on friday
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it never showed up on any records and
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things you know but the problem with
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that was this real inequality you know
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if i'm working for you
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you'll let me do it i'm doing the same
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job working for somebody else they won't
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let me do it
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so i think that's probably not the path
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to go down one thing employers ought to
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really do is be clear
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these are our policies and procedures
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i think for sure employers are all over
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the place right the tech companies
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particularly silicon valley companies
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were saying go away you know
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and it's amazing for a company like
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google to say that which had turned
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being into the office into kind of a
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fetish right we want you here all the
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time and here are all these goodies that
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will pull you in and keep you here and
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now it's you know kind of go away then
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in new york you got the banks in new
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york saying forget it you're all coming
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back right
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so most companies i think are trying to
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figure out
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frankly what everybody else is doing
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nobody wants to be the one that's the
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outlier in your industry
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and some of that is because you may feel
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in the job market you'll be out of luck
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people want to work remotely you say no
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but your competitors around you say sure
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and then you start bleeding people right
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right so it's not crazy
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to wait the problem is the longer
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everybody waits
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the longer it takes this job market to
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sort of sort itself out and get more
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people into new jobs are changing their
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existing jobs very interesting well we
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got questions flooding in over here let
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me uh fire away here it's the first one
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coming from robert
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on linkedin
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how do you see the onboarding process in
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working from home times how will
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onboarding uh change
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yeah well if you're hiring people
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remotely and a lot of places are you may
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have this
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pete i do too we hired faculty i had not
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met
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you know i mean they're colleagues it's
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been a year i still have not met some of
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these folks right uh it's got to be
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really difficult
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to come into an organization and try to
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find your way around when you're working
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from home for those of us who've been in
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our organizations for a long time this
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is easy it's a piece of cake you know
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everybody already you know how things
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work but if you're coming in for the
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first time you have nobody to ask what's
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going on if you want information you got
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to schedule a zoom call with people and
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they're irritated by that
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so
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if we're going to continue to do it and
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have people
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come in remotely we really have to do a
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much better job everything has to be
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explained to people in the onboarding
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process right we got to do a lot to get
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them to make connections through some
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sort of visual
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you know virtual contact if we're not
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going to bring him in
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i think we ought to think also about
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onboarding our current employees when
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they come back to the office assuming we
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bring them back they've been away for a
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year and a half
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and this is a good opportunity to change
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the way things work because some of the
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old habits
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might actually be broken if you didn't
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like the way things work before you know
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this is a time to try to change them
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people are already shaken up a little
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bit and you actually touch on that in
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the book about what happened right here
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at the university of pennsylvania
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and so i just without putting pen on the
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spot
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how do you think those programs have
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gone
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uh it sounds like they've gone pretty
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well the those programs that he's
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talking about were ones where parts of
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the university
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uh decided for the staff in particular
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to make the return something more of a
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welcoming event i think knowing in part
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that some people are nervous coming back
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for health reasons you know is it still
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infectious in our workplace trying to
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chill them out on that but some of them
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you know have been away for a while and
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you know they don't want to be back
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maybe uh and most of us i think want to
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reconnect with
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other people so can we put that front
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and center can we make this a good
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experience coming back right
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and also an opportunity for people to
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learn
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some different ways of interaction
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while they're in this mode of boy this
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seems new right so that's what some of
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our colleagues here have been doing
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across parts of the university and you
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know it seems a really smart sensible
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thing to do it doesn't take much time it
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doesn't cost much money so why not
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very interesting here's a great question
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from elliot from linkedin is it
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reasonable to assume that there'll be a
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boomerang effect uh when a work from
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home goes out of vogue in in the short
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term think things will swing the other
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way
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well if we mean boomerang by
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uh there's two ways that could boomerang
00:17:32
right one is that employees who are
00:17:34
working remotely will say hey you know i
00:17:36
really want to come back to the office
00:17:38
there might be some of that but what we
00:17:40
know from other work from home
00:17:43
events before this is that people get
00:17:46
people who go remote are self-selecting
00:17:49
to do it they kind of know what they're
00:17:51
getting into they kind of know after
00:17:52
this point what it's like they're not so
00:17:54
likely to say you know i really missed
00:17:57
as one of my colleagues who left here
00:18:00
said i really miss the chinese food
00:18:01
truck on 37th street you know they
00:18:04
probably not going to happen a lot
00:18:06
are there employers who will back up i
00:18:07
think absolutely and i think this is one
00:18:10
thing to worry about on the employer
00:18:12
side how are you making this decision
00:18:15
right are you deciding to bring people
00:18:17
back because you really think it's going
00:18:19
to be better or is it simply because you
00:18:21
don't trust that your employees will be
00:18:23
able to
00:18:24
continue to work productly unless you're
00:18:26
watching them right and that would be a
00:18:28
really bad
00:18:29
outcome having trusted them for a year
00:18:32
most employers report people really did
00:18:33
pitch in and get things done and to now
00:18:36
to tell them nah you know
00:18:38
we don't trust you come on back i think
00:18:40
the one thing that employees seem to
00:18:42
appreciate the most
00:18:44
during the work from home period is
00:18:47
having more control themselves over
00:18:49
their time and having more trust from
00:18:51
their
00:18:52
employer and if you try to roll that
00:18:54
back now
00:18:55
it's probably not going to get a good
00:18:56
reaction from more harm than good uh
00:18:59
let's keep the questions coming sammy on
00:19:01
linkedin as uh points out that uh that
00:19:04
they uh recently left go of of their
00:19:07
office in new york now renting spaces on
00:19:09
an unneeded basis for strategy sessions
00:19:12
and brainstorming so what do you feel
00:19:14
about the future of work spaces uh are
00:19:16
we already seeing some changes uh how do
00:19:18
you see that continuing to evolve
00:19:21
well you know this comes to the very
00:19:22
interesting question that not a lot of
00:19:24
employers have completely thought
00:19:26
through and that is what's in it for us
00:19:28
if we
00:19:29
change the way we work
00:19:30
permanent remote work is pretty
00:19:32
straightforward you know we're going to
00:19:33
take back your office and cut our real
00:19:35
estate footprint and we're going to save
00:19:37
money instantly and we're going to save
00:19:39
a lot of money
00:19:40
if you don't do that
00:19:42
and if you say we're going to have some
00:19:43
sort of in-between arrangement
00:19:45
could you cut your office space anyway
00:19:49
that's kind of the bet the problem is we
00:19:51
tried that that was the hoteling
00:19:53
movement
00:19:54
in the dot com period it started then
00:19:57
and it didn't work i mean frankly by
00:20:00
2005 or so there are a bunch of stories
00:20:03
in the media saying whatever happened to
00:20:04
hoteling because it had been pulled back
00:20:07
in most places the problem with hoteling
00:20:09
which means you don't get a permanent
00:20:11
office when you need to come in we just
00:20:13
get you a space you know the problem
00:20:15
with that is most people who come back
00:20:17
to the office
00:20:18
do it because they want to meet their
00:20:20
peers and colleagues
00:20:22
and with a rental room it's not clear
00:20:24
you're going to meet them you know you
00:20:26
get a office any place in the complex
00:20:28
where it might be vacant or a special
00:20:31
temp office area we've got we also know
00:20:34
that people like the idea of having
00:20:36
their own space and being able for some
00:20:38
people to decorate it or make it feel
00:20:40
more like them you know and so there was
00:20:43
a lot of pushback by the employees
00:20:46
in silicon valley particular and it kind
00:20:48
of folded right so
00:20:50
if you think it's going to work for you
00:20:51
the question to ask yourself is
00:20:54
why do you think you're different i mean
00:20:56
what is it about your approach where you
00:20:58
think it's going to work because we ran
00:20:59
this experiment before it didn't work
00:21:01
for most people
00:21:02
why do you think it's going to work for
00:21:03
you and i do want to say that that's
00:21:06
this just a really fascinating aspect of
00:21:08
the book and for for anyone listening uh
00:21:12
instead of just saying
00:21:14
it's all new it's all different we can't
00:21:16
learn from the past i think uh peter
00:21:18
you've done a really great job of
00:21:20
pulling together synthesizing a lot of
00:21:21
that that uh literature and just
00:21:24
experience to really
00:21:27
give us some foundations to to better
00:21:28
understand where we're going so i'm sure
00:21:30
as a scholar it just felt very rewarding
00:21:33
to see some of that uh all the research
00:21:35
just all of a sudden come to light in a
00:21:37
really dramatic way well and i think
00:21:40
also as
00:21:41
you would well know to be able to see
00:21:42
that there actually was research you
00:21:44
didn't have to make stuff up right
00:21:46
now we actually have answers to these
00:21:48
questions right so and we also have a
00:21:50
lot of questions about talent management
00:21:52
and so on gene is asking a question
00:21:54
about your recommendations for how
00:21:57
employers can maximize retention and
00:21:59
attract the right kind of talent you
00:22:00
know beyond all the logistics of time
00:22:03
and space and all that how do we bring
00:22:05
in and hold on to the right people
00:22:07
well retention is the harder thing
00:22:08
because you know the big aha around
00:22:11
retention is that social relationships
00:22:13
hold people in organizations
00:22:15
and with remote work we're breaking a
00:22:16
lot of those social relationships so
00:22:20
we're gonna have to deal with that
00:22:21
somehow figure out how to retain people
00:22:24
because the main way that we've done it
00:22:25
hasn't worked is unlikely to work very
00:22:28
well
00:22:28
one of the things we did learn during
00:22:30
the pandemic work from home period is a
00:22:33
quirky statistic from some surveys that
00:22:36
employees reported that their
00:22:37
relationship with their supervisor
00:22:39
actually got better
00:22:41
if you're really cynical you might say
00:22:42
well i don't see my supervisor i like
00:22:44
her much better now
00:22:46
but i think there was some purposeful
00:22:48
action on the part of some
00:22:50
employers to make the supervisors get in
00:22:53
touch with the remote subordinates every
00:22:56
week
00:22:57
and in the office we don't do that very
00:22:59
often partly i guess because we think
00:23:01
you see me all the time why should you
00:23:04
why should we have a sit down and talk
00:23:06
so we could probably do a much better
00:23:08
job of this if we get people back in the
00:23:10
office but even remotely
00:23:12
than we have probably done in the past
00:23:14
on the retention side it's a bit of a
00:23:16
trick
00:23:17
on the hiring side you know one of the
00:23:19
things you hear from the tech companies
00:23:21
in particular is that they think this is
00:23:23
going to be a boom for them
00:23:25
because they can now hire people
00:23:28
anywhere because they can say you don't
00:23:30
have to relocate you can work for us
00:23:32
wherever you are including by the way
00:23:34
outside the us we don't have to worry
00:23:35
about getting you a visa
00:23:37
because as long as you don't work in the
00:23:38
u.s you don't need a visa but you could
00:23:40
be our employee someplace else
00:23:42
which is probably true
00:23:45
i guess the question they maybe not
00:23:46
thought enough about is
00:23:48
other employers could do that to your
00:23:50
employees as well right so you know your
00:23:52
retention problem is going to be really
00:23:54
bigger if we go down that path
00:23:57
the other thing i guess if i'm the
00:23:58
employee is to say to worry a little bit
00:24:01
what
00:24:02
happens if they just want to turn me
00:24:04
into a contractor which is quite likely
00:24:06
to happen
00:24:07
somebody in the finance area will say
00:24:09
well why is peter an employee anyway
00:24:11
you're paying these payroll taxes and
00:24:12
stuff for him and you know he's not here
00:24:14
you don't see him you're managing him
00:24:15
remotely why don't you just make him a
00:24:17
contractor we like that
00:24:19
better for accounting reasons it shows
00:24:21
up
00:24:22
looking better on our books let's do
00:24:23
that right so we've already seen some
00:24:26
controversy and legislation arising uh
00:24:29
even pre-pandemic about you know uber
00:24:32
drivers and so on do you think we're
00:24:33
going to see more changes along those
00:24:35
lines
00:24:36
well my guess is that we will
00:24:39
may see more legislation and it varies
00:24:43
protecting contractors broadly defined
00:24:45
making it more difficult to turn people
00:24:47
into contractors broadly defined right
00:24:49
or at least enforcing the existing laws
00:24:53
more than we have democratic
00:24:54
administration that tends to happen
00:24:56
anyway so
00:24:57
we'll see
00:24:58
where they go in the future it depends
00:25:00
who's in the white house whether they
00:25:02
take that seriously or not
00:25:04
got one more question for you as we're
00:25:06
running short on time uh you know we're
00:25:08
talking before about the
00:25:10
the differential impact on different
00:25:13
groups of employees
00:25:15
diana's asking about gen z
00:25:18
so uh first i'd like to ask you do you
00:25:20
think that there are differential
00:25:22
impacts or for new employees and and
00:25:24
secondly what advice would you offer for
00:25:27
uh for young employees to be entering
00:25:29
the workforce and with all of this
00:25:31
uncertainty and change well you know the
00:25:33
first thing i feel compelled to say
00:25:35
because i just got out of a phd seminar
00:25:37
we're talking exactly about this is you
00:25:39
know the national academy of sciences
00:25:41
this last summer
00:25:43
summer 2020 published a report debunking
00:25:46
the whole idea of these generational
00:25:47
differences that they don't exist right
00:25:50
but you want to be really careful about
00:25:52
working remotely because you don't know
00:25:54
an awful lot about how things work maybe
00:25:57
generally but especially in the
00:25:59
organization you're going into and you'd
00:26:01
like to have the most opportunities
00:26:03
possible
00:26:04
to learn stuff so i would really make a
00:26:07
big push to be in the office if at all
00:26:10
possible
00:26:11
because this is a huge investment in
00:26:12
your career at that point
00:26:15
and if you miss it
00:26:16
first of all if you're not in the office
00:26:18
it's easy to be the last one hired the
00:26:21
first one let go
00:26:23
people don't know who you are they have
00:26:24
connections to you and secondly there's
00:26:26
all kinds of things you learn about how
00:26:27
the world works and business works or
00:26:29
your organization works that you just
00:26:31
can't pick up remotely so i would say if
00:26:34
you're a young person coming into the
00:26:35
labor market go to the office that's
00:26:38
great i'm going to try to squeeze one
00:26:39
more in for you a question from from
00:26:42
david uh real quick uh put you on the
00:26:45
spot a little bit can you point out an
00:26:47
organization that that's navigated this
00:26:49
whole thing particularly well
00:26:52
well i think there are different ones
00:26:54
that have navigated it differently by
00:26:56
different approaches so in the book i
00:26:58
talk a little about clorox as a company
00:27:00
that has thought about the on
00:27:02
re-onboarding
00:27:04
very purposefully and that
00:27:06
you know that's that's good uh i think
00:27:09
in terms of organizations that have
00:27:10
decided to come back bring people back i
00:27:13
think comcast has been good at the way
00:27:16
they've done it they've now given a date
00:27:17
they said you know we're going to bring
00:27:19
people back we're going to work through
00:27:20
the problems
00:27:22
i think any company that communicated
00:27:24
well along the way and communicated the
00:27:27
uncertainty as well to be able to say
00:27:29
look we don't know you know we got to
00:27:31
see what the state does what the city
00:27:34
does with its regulations how the virus
00:27:36
plays out what's happening with the
00:27:37
delta variant you know organizations
00:27:40
that are willing to be transparent
00:27:43
that goes an enormously long way i don't
00:27:45
think your employees will fault you for
00:27:47
not telling them what's going to happen
00:27:49
if you tell them why you don't know but
00:27:51
if you keep it a secret and don't talk
00:27:53
to them they're going to assume there's
00:27:55
a conspiracy going on and that
00:27:57
actually all your jobs are going to
00:27:59
china or something like that so you get
00:28:00
a bad outcome if you're not letting them
00:28:02
know even what you don't know good
00:28:05
advice good advice so we have so many
00:28:07
questions but we don't have time for
00:28:08
them so i do want to thank everyone for
00:28:11
uh not only tuning in but for for taking
00:28:12
the time for being so engaged and such
00:28:14
an important topic
00:28:16
and with that in mind if
00:28:18
participants haven't done so already
00:28:20
future of office right here available in
00:28:22
the wharton school press bookstore
00:28:24
wherever books are sold and actually if
00:28:26
you go to the wharton school press
00:28:28
bookstore
00:28:29
40
00:28:30
off discount on the future of office
00:28:33
ebook so the promo code is meet peter uh
00:28:37
yeah meet peter capelli all one word uh
00:28:40
but
00:28:40
love you all to stay updated um with our
00:28:43
meet the authors series peter it's so
00:28:45
wonderful to have you as part of it
00:28:47
again i can't think of a more timely
00:28:49
topic or a more suitable expert to talk
00:28:51
about it so thanks so much for taking
00:28:53
the time great thank you
00:28:55
and again thank all of you for taking
00:28:57
the time as well
00:28:59
this is pete fader signing off from the
00:29:01
wharton school at the university of
00:29:03
pennsylvania
00:29:05
[Music]
00:29:13
[Music]
00:29:17
you
