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Jimmy Hunt, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thank you.
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>> Um, how are you?
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>> I am I am interesting.
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>> Yeah. No,
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>> I'm all over the show.
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>> How are you really? Like
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>> Yeah, that's that's the point. I'm
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interesting, right? So So the answer to
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your question right there is, "Oh, yeah,
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good. Thanks, Dom." I'm like, "No, I'm
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I'm interesting." Like uh
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>> what does that mean? Uh, interesting
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means that like there's there's the good
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and bad of life and there's the there's
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the demons I fight in my head every day
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and there's the there's the things I
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feel and uh don't quite understand and
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then the ones I do understand but it's
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just that it's that whole complicated
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process and that's life and uh so some
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good some not quite good but in general
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trending pretty
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So more yeah if there was a good bad
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column more good
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>> yeah there's there's more good there's
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more good than bad um but uh like I like
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the inquisition
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which you should do between friends of
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how are you really
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>> right there's a big difference between
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how are you
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>> and how are how are you
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>> how are you yeah no all good
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>> yeah yeah yeah exactly
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>> well I've heard you talk about um you
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know brutal honesty and uh the one to
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100 scale.
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>> Um, so if you applied that lens to
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yourself, where would you where would
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you be like today, right now?
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>> Yeah. I mean to to
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>> anything above 51 is good, I guess.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, what you're what
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you're referring to in my last book I
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call the mental health continuum. Runs
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from 0 to 100. I split up into five
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different areas and then I split those
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areas into emotional states, right? So 0
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to 20
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is uh severe discomfort.
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20 to 40 discomfort. 40 to 60 okay.
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Um we got 60 to 80 is like good growth.
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And then 80 to 100 is contentment.
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>> And so when most people ah like 9 out of
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10 8 out of 10 mine's a little more
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subjective than that. And so like today
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I would probably be in the
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65ish
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range, which is a range where like
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everything's everything's better than
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okay. Everything's solid. Everything's
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good. But there's a whole bunch of
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things that I'm really sort of
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contemplating and working on. I'm not
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sitting in a state of just contentment.
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>> That sounds like a good Yeah, that's a
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good result, I think.
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>> Oh, no. That's a It's a decent It's a
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decent place to be. Yeah, cuz I think
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most people probably trudging trudging
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through life sort of in the 40 to 60.
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>> Well, yeah. That's actually in the 20 to
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40, right? And in uh what I call
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discomfort,
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right? So discomfort is a state where
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like life is hard. Like everything is
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just takes that bit of a fight and is a
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bit of annoying and like it's like, man,
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I just wish everything was just a little
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more chill. Right? That's that's that 20
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to 40 range. And then 0 to 20 is the
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state of severe discomfort. And that is
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a state that you cannot subsist in.
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>> You can't live there forever because it
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is a severe discomfort. And so most
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people do just enough to get out of that
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and and live in that 20 to 40. Oh, I'm
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uncomfortable, but it's fine. I'll get
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by.
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>> Um, and so we separated at the start of
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last year. And she is the the deepest
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love I've ever had. Um, and it was a
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very hard process separating from her.
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Uh we'd lived eight years in Mexico and
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so I had to leave our home and and and
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come back here because I wanted to be
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back home and then back here trying to
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restructure my life. And you know last
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year I said very very very very tough
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for me and there were um there were
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months last year like a couple of months
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in particular that I was suicidal every
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day. Every single day I did not want to
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be here. And one of the interesting
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things with that compared to being
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suicidal now versus, you know, 15, 18
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years ago
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was the tools that I'd learned this time
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around. And so I was never in any danger
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of taking my life even though I was
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suicidal cuz I was having these suicidal
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ideiations. I was thinking about it all
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of the time. And there were a couple of
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things that allowed me to be able to
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move through that.
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Number one was that every single day I
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had a phone call with my best best
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friend Rachel every single day and she
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checked on in on me every day. And even
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that makes me emotional because such a
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beautiful beautiful person to do that.
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Uh number two is knowing that this shall
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pass. Like this is a temporary state
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that I will end up moving through. But
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number three, and I think it's the most
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interesting, and it ties back to what I
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just said before about Sasha and Taran,
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was that
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one of the what I call the cornerstones
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of good mental fitness is the ability to
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observe your thoughts. M
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>> and the ability to observe your thoughts
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as a state is best learned through the
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process of meditation. Most people think
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that meditation is about quieting your
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mind and like clearing your thoughts
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when in reality what it really is is the
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ability to observe them without
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judgment.
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And so when I was in this state of deep
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sadness
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and not wanting to be here anymore, I
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was able to use this practice to
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separate,
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my consciousness
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from my body
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and observe the thoughts, the feelings
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and the beliefs that I was having during
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this time. And that separation,
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that detachment from that allows me to
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be able to see that I am not my
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thoughts. I am not my feelings. I am not
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the state. That is just a state that my
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body is currently in. And with that
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ability to observe allowed me to really
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put perspective on it and allow me to
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then start moving through that.
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It's still very alarming when you have
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those thoughts though because if you if
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you have those thoughts you could you
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could just have like one weak moment and
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you know you make an irreversible
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decision.
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>> Uh yes and yes and no. Um
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the the thing and this is just this is
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literally my experience with this is is
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that like
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there is like to me suicide is when
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there is no hope left.
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>> When you cannot deal with the pain of
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existence any longer. you've exhausted
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every single other option under the sun,
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then that is the only option left. And
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in order to relieve the pain, that is
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what you do.
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>> And I can understand that.
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I
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could absolutely
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I can sympathize with that. I can
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understand that I wanted to do that. But
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I could always see
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a tiny glimmer. There was always that.
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And it's one of those and that's why
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sharing this stuff is so vitally
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important. Even though I only did it
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with one real person, couple couple of
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people
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like they were enough to be the glimmer,
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right? Whereas if I had not told
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anybody,
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then there probably would have been a
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closer move towards the final option.
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And so
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that's when you talk to these people
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about it, they give you ideas, they give
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you options, they give you some hope.
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And so whether it is professional
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therapy, whether it's just them being
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somebody to lean on, whether it's like
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um come stay at my house, let's go hang
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out, let's go to the beach, let's like
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any of those things just gives you that
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little bit of oh yeah, cool. Like thank
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you. And helps you to understand that
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yes, you may not want to be here right
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now.
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But but that's the interesting thing is
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like like there only exists the present
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moment, right? Anything in the past is a
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memory and any anything that we're
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thinking about imagining is the future.
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And the present moment is hard in that
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state,
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but with different circumstances creates
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a different state. And with that
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different state allows you to to be in a
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different place. And so
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I mean I don't even really know what
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else I'm I'm talking about here. I've
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sort of got lost in it. Um but that's
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just the reality of of this situation.
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You do get lost in it and it's hard to
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put stuff together. But um those are my
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three things. The ability to share your
00:10:03
story is really really really important
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to have someone to do that. And that's
00:10:07
connection. That's community. That's
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that's people.
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The ability to observe your thoughts
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is a key key component that is
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h like you you when you talk about and
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you're like oh we should do this
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>> like this is how you do it
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>> like if you haven't practiced it like
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it's hard to do it just as a one-off
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thing. I'm like oh just just separate
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yourself from your thoughts and just
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look and you're like I don't know how to
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do that right
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>> but the more you've practiced it the
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better you're at it. Right. So you can
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do it in that in that moment.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Well, thanks for sharing that. Um I tell
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we we'll go back and then we'll um work
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through the Jimmy Hunt story. This is
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like a a great greatest hits. All right.
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>> Jimmy's greatest hits.
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>> So um yeah, early years. Who was Jimmy
00:11:00
Hunt? You were really good at sport, eh?
00:11:02
Like North Harbor rep for hockey,
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tennis, and golf.
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>> Where the hell did you find that out?
00:11:07
>> Did my research.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. I played I played hockey,
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tennis, and golf for North Harour.
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>> Yeah. What were you like? What were you
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like as a young fellow? You happy Lar?
00:11:17
>> Yeah. Like a a Laran who loved sport.
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>> Um and I was very good at those things.
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Um hockey I only did for a short time,
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but made the North Harbor team just it
00:11:29
was a weird thing. But uh yeah, uh golf
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I started playing when I was eight
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>> and I was down on basically a scratch
00:11:36
handicap at 13. Um and I can still play
00:11:40
good golf because of that. Um tennis I
00:11:42
was I was very good played rep all that
00:11:44
sort of stuff and um burned out of that
00:11:47
tennis system. Was very good and then
00:11:50
like went overseas to play some matches
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and realized oh actually I'm quite [ __ ]
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>> I'm north good.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Even even New Zealand good
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right just doesn't doesn't equate to
00:12:00
much.
00:12:01
>> And so that kind of that kind of
00:12:03
shattered who I was. Um
00:12:07
because you know like people here were
00:12:08
like you could win Wimbledon, you could.
00:12:11
And you're like you [ __ ] can't.
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Like it's nice people saying nice things
00:12:16
to you but you can't.
00:12:18
>> It's a big fish small pond scenario.
00:12:20
>> Yeah. And this sort of thing is that
00:12:22
like it's sort of a pervasive thing and
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I'm not going to jump ahead too far
00:12:27
since you are going through it this way.
00:12:28
pervasive thing throughout my life is
00:12:31
that I have never been good enough
00:12:36
ever. No matter what I won, no matter
00:12:38
what I achieved, it was never enough
00:12:42
>> for you,
00:12:42
>> for me. Um, and I sat down one Christmas
00:12:48
um, and we're just talking like after
00:12:50
lunch or whatever, and I said to my
00:12:52
parents, "Just so you know, you [ __ ] me
00:12:55
up." And my parents are absolutely
00:12:58
wonderful. They are just beautiful
00:13:00
humans. And they were like, "What?" And
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I was like, "You told me I could be
00:13:06
anything. You told me I could win the
00:13:08
Masters. You could tell me I I could win
00:13:10
Wimple." And the reality was I I
00:13:13
couldn't. And so
00:13:18
and and so attached with later diagnosis
00:13:21
and everything like the point is that
00:13:23
like I just I never feel like what I
00:13:25
have done is enough.
00:13:26
>> Like it's never good enough. And so I've
00:13:29
spent since then until now trying to
00:13:34
make it okay
00:13:36
for whatever I'm doing even if it's not
00:13:39
much and taking that pressure off of
00:13:43
myself cuz that's that's hard to live
00:13:45
with.
00:13:47
>> Yeah. Why did you never think you were
00:13:50
you Yeah. you you were good enough. Was
00:13:51
it a perfectionism complex or
00:13:54
>> Yeah. It turns out it's a symptom of
00:13:55
ADHD as well.
00:13:56
>> Okay. Um but yeah, it's it's
00:13:58
perfectionism. It's um expectations.
00:14:02
It's wanting to
00:14:05
uh wanting to please people.
00:14:08
>> Um
00:14:09
>> wanting valid external validation.
00:14:11
>> It's yeah 100% external validation of
00:14:14
like you know people will like you if
00:14:16
you do these things.
00:14:18
>> Um but they might not like you if you
00:14:21
just sit in a room with them. M.
00:14:23
>> Um, but if you've got this and this and
00:14:24
this and this, then they'll be like, "Oh
00:14:26
my god, you're amazing."
00:14:28
>> Um,
00:14:30
>> is there you're jumping ahead a little
00:14:31
bit, is there still elements of that in
00:14:32
you now with the with the the awesome
00:14:35
things that you do?
00:14:36
>> Yes and no. So, like throughout my adult
00:14:39
life, yes, absolutely. Uh, if I did
00:14:42
these big cool things, people would like
00:14:44
me hopefully. Um,
00:14:47
now like I have a real understanding of
00:14:51
what drives me. I mean like over the
00:14:54
last 15 years I've probably done more
00:14:56
introspection than than most people
00:14:58
around. And trying to understand myself
00:15:02
and how I work and and how I work best
00:15:05
and you know one of my core values is
00:15:08
freedom, right? So, the ability to just
00:15:10
go and do
00:15:13
um
00:15:15
one of my sort of
00:15:18
if you asked me, which you haven't, but
00:15:20
if you asked me what is your favorite
00:15:23
thing in the world, I would say the
00:15:26
unknown.
00:15:28
Like, the unknown
00:15:32
just lights me up. The knowing bors me
00:15:36
to tears.
00:15:38
So, like if we were to go down and do a
00:15:41
bungee jump,
00:15:43
like I've done dozens of them for
00:15:46
various reasons over over my life. Um,
00:15:48
but I would go up there and I'd just go,
00:15:51
"Oh, yeah, cool, fun. Jump off."
00:15:53
>> It wouldn't bring you some sort of
00:15:55
exhilaration.
00:15:55
>> It doesn't neither does skydiving.
00:15:58
Neither does anything else like that.
00:15:59
Right. Like it literally doesn't because
00:16:01
my mind my mind says this is
00:16:05
99.999999999999%
00:16:08
safe
00:16:09
right AJ Hackett's never had a never had
00:16:11
a fatality a fatality in New Zealand
00:16:14
this is literally 99.99% safe and so I
00:16:17
was like h right whereas when I was
00:16:20
growing up the two things that this is
00:16:23
from the age of like 12 to 25 the two
00:16:26
things that I did to an extreme level to
00:16:30
go as fast as I could go and as high as
00:16:32
I could go. My two favorite hobbies were
00:16:34
cliff diving and racing downhill
00:16:37
skateboards.
00:16:39
Both things that like have no you have
00:16:44
to well you have to you have to really
00:16:46
prepare and control and and and train
00:16:49
and all of that. But the unknown of that
00:16:52
is is really important. But the
00:16:55
adventures that I go on, like I can't go
00:16:59
on a structured adventure. I need to go
00:17:01
on an unstructured adventure. And two
00:17:05
years ago when I walked the TA the turoa
00:17:10
trail from Cape Rang to Bluff,
00:17:14
it was it's different. There was there
00:17:16
was some aspects of that that I really
00:17:18
needed and I did that for a good reason.
00:17:20
But in terms of adventure, it was boring
00:17:23
because you follow a trail
00:17:26
because because you go the same as
00:17:28
everybody else.
00:17:29
>> Yeah. It's not exactly It's not a foot
00:17:30
path, though, is it?
00:17:31
>> No, it is literally one of the most
00:17:33
[ __ ] up hiking trails on the like
00:17:36
there's not enough signpost. There's not
00:17:38
enough there's not it's a it is a mess.
00:17:40
And it is a big adventure to a lot of
00:17:42
people, but it wasn't enough adventure
00:17:44
to me. It needs to be more unstructured.
00:17:46
>> Worth highlighting. Yeah. You you did
00:17:48
that in like 90 days, like a 3-month
00:17:49
walk, 38 km a day on average.
00:17:52
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, the average time is
00:17:53
probably about 150 days and I did it in
00:17:56
91. Um yeah, average 37 38ks a day. Um
00:18:00
like just get up and go.
00:18:02
>> It's a big walk.
00:18:03
>> Oh, yeah. 3,25 km.
00:18:05
>> Yeah. So, um and so you you first
00:18:09
started getting sad or depressed in your
00:18:11
mid20s. Were you were you married at the
00:18:13
time to your No, you were with your
00:18:14
partner Joe. I was I was with a partner
00:18:16
called Joe and then yeah we got married
00:18:19
at when I was 30.
00:18:20
>> What happened? Was there um was there
00:18:22
was there an a catalyst you know was
00:18:25
there was there like
00:18:26
>> to my depression?
00:18:27
>> Yeah. An event or series of events?
00:18:29
>> No. That was that was that was sort of
00:18:30
the thing that really perplexed me. So
00:18:32
I'm 44 now. So, we're looking at like
00:18:35
let's say 18 years ago when I started to
00:18:37
get depressed and 18 years ago
00:18:41
like John Kerwin hadn't even or maybe he
00:18:44
had just done that first campaign in New
00:18:48
Zealand
00:18:50
and so nobody was talking about
00:18:52
depression. nobody understood um what it
00:18:54
really was in the common um place. And
00:18:58
so I just started to get progressively
00:19:00
sadder and sadder and really had no idea
00:19:02
why and felt like a [ __ ] It just felt
00:19:04
like I was the only one in this state
00:19:08
and I didn't know how or why. And so it
00:19:11
was it was creeping on me.
00:19:14
>> And looking back um you know there's
00:19:19
you know there's a few I think catalyst
00:19:21
to it. One which I think is quite
00:19:23
interesting um with a lot of research
00:19:26
coming out now is that I've had too many
00:19:28
head injuries.
00:19:30
So I ended up with I think about 21
00:19:32
concussions between the ages of like 13
00:19:35
and 25 and
00:19:38
>> doing what?
00:19:40
>> Uh doing dumb [ __ ]
00:19:42
skateboarding down
00:19:45
those activities that you
00:19:47
>> cliff diving just so I was I was in the
00:19:50
I was in the just pre-jackass
00:19:53
phase and we were doing that sort of
00:19:55
dumb stuff and then jackass came out and
00:19:57
we're like oh yeah let's make this even
00:19:59
crazier and so yeah I just did dumb
00:20:02
stuff but I ended up it's no different
00:20:04
to you know if I was if id played rugby
00:20:06
you know and ended up with lots of
00:20:07
concussions from rugby or whatever but
00:20:10
head injuries play a major part in um in
00:20:13
depression and anxiety and things like
00:20:15
that. So I think that was a contributing
00:20:17
factor.
00:20:18
>> Um
00:20:20
and then like a real just
00:20:24
not understand this like the amount of
00:20:27
podcasts and books and everything about
00:20:29
self-development now um is phenomenal
00:20:32
for someone looking to guide themselves
00:20:34
through their 20s. But when you and I
00:20:36
were in our 20ies, we had nothing. Like
00:20:39
nothing. We never read a book about this
00:20:41
stuff. We never listened to anything
00:20:42
about this stuff. We just had to kind of
00:20:44
figure it out. And I really didn't. And
00:20:47
I didn't understand who I was, why I was
00:20:49
acting this way, why I was doing these
00:20:51
things. And
00:20:53
it just got a progressive spiral
00:20:56
downwards until like
00:20:59
>> and it it's kind of like a snowball,
00:21:01
right? Just got it just got faster and
00:21:03
faster and faster and faster. And I and
00:21:04
I really didn't know why at the time.
00:21:07
>> How long were you living like that for?
00:21:09
>> A few years. M
00:21:11
>> um but again like it's even it sort of
00:21:13
blurs because like it was like I was
00:21:16
good and then I was okay and then I was
00:21:19
bad and then I was [ __ ] but it was a
00:21:22
>> like this weird sort of continuum down
00:21:24
and then you'd have good days in between
00:21:26
and you'd be like ah and you put on a
00:21:27
brave face and all that sort of stuff.
00:21:30
>> Yeah. Were you were you quite good at
00:21:31
wearing a mask?
00:21:32
>> Oh yeah, of course. Like everybody is
00:21:34
and like when you talked about Taran
00:21:37
before, oh she was always so bubbly.
00:21:40
Yeah,
00:21:40
>> we are like and and it's not even just
00:21:44
we as in people who have had depression,
00:21:47
anxiety, anything like that.
00:21:49
>> It's everybody. You put on a mask when
00:21:52
you come here. This is not the real you
00:21:55
that I am talking to. This is podcaster
00:21:58
Dom,
00:21:58
>> right? And if if if we went and sat at
00:22:01
your home, you'd be a different dom. If
00:22:04
you know if you uh were slightly drunk,
00:22:07
you'd be a different dom. you know, like
00:22:09
we we put on these different masks and
00:22:12
then, you know, we only reveal them to
00:22:14
people as we go.
00:22:16
>> Um, if we choose to. And so, like, when
00:22:20
I was in my worst state, you know, that
00:22:23
sort of 15 to 18 years ago, literally
00:22:26
the only people that knew were my father
00:22:28
and my wife.
00:22:29
>> That's it.
00:22:30
>> Yeah. I heard um Yeah. You you'd call
00:22:32
your dad and you like you didn't even
00:22:34
want to play golf on a s on the weekends
00:22:36
with him. You'd stay in bed and your
00:22:38
wife you'd have a shower and your wife
00:22:39
would find you like in the shower like
00:22:41
balling your eyes out like 30 minutes an
00:22:43
hour later.
00:22:44
>> Yeah. Yeah. Abs. Yeah.
00:22:46
>> An awful way to be living your life for
00:22:47
that extended period of time.
00:22:48
>> Yeah. And it really was like that shower
00:22:51
thing. Um it's interesting cuz like I
00:22:54
lived my life in the moment and you are
00:22:59
quoting things from my book that I wrote
00:23:03
13 years ago, my first book. And I wrote
00:23:07
those. I gave them to the publisher. It
00:23:10
went off and became a bestselling book.
00:23:15
And I've never thought about those
00:23:16
things again. And I try I try and move
00:23:19
forward. And and and you've literally
00:23:21
just reminded me that. Yes. Like I
00:23:24
literally used to sit in the shower
00:23:28
and just ball my eyes out and I had no
00:23:32
idea why.
00:23:32
>> How often? like semi-regularly
00:23:37
and that like I I remember that being a
00:23:40
catalyst
00:23:42
for me actually going oh there's
00:23:45
something seriously [ __ ] wrong with
00:23:46
you right before I was like I'm just sad
00:23:49
I'm just having a hard time like never
00:23:52
like again at that time it was never you
00:23:55
have depression
00:23:57
>> um and so I was like oh no like there's
00:24:00
something genuinely wrong there's no
00:24:02
reason like you know no one had done any
00:24:05
anything to me recently. There was
00:24:07
nothing wrong with my marriage at that
00:24:08
particular time. There was like there
00:24:10
was nothing that was
00:24:13
>> the catalyst for me to be balling my
00:24:15
eyes out in the shower. And so yeah,
00:24:18
like that was like a big wakeup call for
00:24:21
me.
00:24:24
>> Why didn't why didn't you take your own
00:24:25
life then? Like 3 years is a long time
00:24:27
to be in that state. Eh, it's that's
00:24:30
>> it's heartbreaking.
00:24:31
>> Cuz I'm a [ __ ]
00:24:33
Oh. Oh. Like you too scared.
00:24:35
>> Too scared.
00:24:37
>> Too much of a [ __ ] to take my own life.
00:24:38
Like I could I couldn't do it. Like I
00:24:41
you know like the amount of times I
00:24:42
wanted to I just couldn't do it. Um and
00:24:47
one of the things for me is that like
00:24:51
I am too aware to be able to do it. I am
00:24:58
I am hyper aware of
00:25:02
what it would do to the people around me
00:25:06
and to my family and my friends and
00:25:10
uh and I really like
00:25:14
I don't want to cause anyone any pain
00:25:16
ever, right? I I want to all I want to
00:25:20
do is bring joy to people, not pain.
00:25:22
>> And so like I could I just couldn't.
00:25:25
There's no way I could do that.
00:25:28
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's
00:25:29
quite courageous. But there's I can I
00:25:31
can understand it from the flip side.
00:25:32
People that are like, "Oh, I'm just a
00:25:34
burden to everyone.
00:25:35
>> I'll be doing the world a favor if I'm
00:25:37
not
00:25:37
>> 100% 100%."
00:25:40
Yeah. And I I guess I I just hope
00:25:47
when I was in that state, I hoped that I
00:25:50
would be able to
00:25:53
move through
00:25:56
and be able to
00:25:59
contribute
00:26:01
in some way post.
00:26:04
And I think that's one of the really
00:26:06
sort of interesting things is like you
00:26:08
know I ended up like after that when I
00:26:10
started doing my stuff and I started um
00:26:13
telling people about my story and
00:26:15
everything which again was novel at the
00:26:18
time. there weren't many people talking
00:26:20
about it and so
00:26:23
like so many people
00:26:26
resonated with simply me just sharing
00:26:31
and it sort of snowballed up in me just
00:26:35
being able to
00:26:37
>> like really find some purpose in what I
00:26:41
was going through. And no matter what
00:26:44
that was,
00:26:46
even to this day, it has allowed me to
00:26:49
see like
00:26:51
like I don't think everything happens
00:26:53
for a reason, but I think everything
00:26:54
happens for a lesson.
00:26:56
>> And so no matter what we're going
00:26:59
through, I think it has this beautiful
00:27:02
ability to be able to help us and help
00:27:04
other people around us.
00:27:06
>> Well, I mean, yeah, you really have like
00:27:08
turned lemons into into lemonade,
00:27:10
haven't you? Like it's going through
00:27:12
that three-year um ghastly battle, it
00:27:15
sort of changed the trajectory of your
00:27:17
life.
00:27:18
>> Oh, 100%.
00:27:19
>> Yeah. Was that Do you think that's the
00:27:20
biggest adversity you've gone through in
00:27:22
your in your life?
00:27:24
>> I mean, I I I I guess so. I mean,
00:27:29
>> like I try not to compare my traumas.
00:27:34
>> You don't rank them. You don't have a
00:27:36
top 10.
00:27:36
>> I don't really have a top 10. Um
00:27:41
but there's definitely a list of 10. Um
00:27:45
and so
00:27:46
>> what's a perk of getting to getting to
00:27:47
your 40s e like yeah you're going to
00:27:48
have to go through some adversity.
00:27:50
>> Yeah. And and this is sort of like
00:27:53
something that everyone really needs to
00:27:56
understand is that nobody gets out of
00:27:59
this life without going through a whole
00:28:02
bunch of [ __ ] So, there's a couple of
00:28:04
pieces that one, we should be um giving
00:28:08
everybody as many tools as humanly
00:28:11
possible to be able to deal with that
00:28:12
[ __ ] And then two, we should be able to
00:28:16
share these stories as much as possible
00:28:19
because I and I love saying this to
00:28:21
people, you are not [ __ ] special.
00:28:24
You're not special. Like, you might feel
00:28:27
special, but you're not because your
00:28:29
story is millions of other people's
00:28:32
story. And you might think it's slightly
00:28:34
unique in some slight but and sure maybe
00:28:36
it is but in a general sense like we all
00:28:39
go through similar [ __ ]
00:28:42
>> We all have parents. All of our parents
00:28:44
are going to die before us pretty much,
00:28:48
>> right?
00:28:49
>> We're all going to lose a job.
00:28:51
>> We're all going to have a partner cheat
00:28:53
on us probably. We're all going to
00:28:55
mostly according to statistics end up
00:28:57
separated from our partners, right? Like
00:29:00
these things are all going to happen and
00:29:04
so we better prepare for it and we
00:29:06
better support each other when we go
00:29:08
through that
00:29:10
>> because it's going to happen
00:29:12
>> and we can only do that by sharing our
00:29:13
stories with each other.
00:29:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Yeah. You I
00:29:18
think you've got to expect [ __ ] to
00:29:19
happen and and then if if it if it
00:29:21
doesn't for whatever reason then then
00:29:23
good for you. But um you got to I think
00:29:25
that's where people fall off like when
00:29:26
they when they're not expecting it to
00:29:28
happen and they get overwhelmed by it.
00:29:29
Do you know the story of the Chinese
00:29:30
farmer?
00:29:32
>> Oh, yeah. It might be good, it might be
00:29:33
bad.
00:29:34
>> Yeah.
00:29:34
>> Yeah.
00:29:35
>> Right.
00:29:36
>> Yeah. Actually, actually, yes. I'm
00:29:37
sorry. That was that was that was rude
00:29:38
of me. I know it, but a lot of people
00:29:39
listening to this or watching this won't
00:29:40
know it. You want to tell it? It's a
00:29:42
great
00:29:42
>> Yeah. I can do I can do it in about 60
00:29:44
seconds. Alan Watts tells it very, very
00:29:46
succinctly. And basically, there was a
00:29:48
Chinese farmer.
00:29:49
>> He had a son, lived in a village, they
00:29:51
had a horse, the horse ran away. Um, the
00:29:54
son comes running up to the dad. Dad,
00:29:56
uh, the horse has run away. this is
00:29:58
horrible. This is we're poor. We're
00:30:00
gonna not be able to do all these
00:30:01
things. Um and his dad goes, "Good news,
00:30:04
bad news. Who knows?"
00:30:08
Son looks confused. Goes, "No, Dad. It's
00:30:12
pretty [ __ ] bad news."
00:30:14
And then the next day, the son comes
00:30:17
running back to the um the father. Dad,
00:30:20
dad, dad, the horses come back and it
00:30:22
bought six wild horses. We're the
00:30:24
richest family in the village. We've got
00:30:25
seven horses now. This is amazing. this
00:30:27
is the best thing ever. And dad goes,
00:30:28
"Good news, bad news. Who knows?"
00:30:32
Son's like, "No, no, no. Good news."
00:30:34
Following day,
00:30:36
uh, son is breaking in one of the
00:30:38
Broncos, gets bucked off, lands on the
00:30:40
ground, breaks his leg, crying like a
00:30:42
little baby. Oh my god, this is my leg.
00:30:45
My leg. And dad's like, "Good news, bad
00:30:47
news. Who knows?" [ __ ] you, Dad.
00:30:51
>> By the way, that wasn't in the actual
00:30:53
story that I read. The [ __ ] you, Dad.
00:30:54
>> No, Alan Watts didn't say that. Um, and
00:30:57
then the following day, the Chinese army
00:30:59
comes around recruiting for a war that's
00:31:02
going on, taking all able-bodied young
00:31:04
men,
00:31:05
>> and he's like, "This is the best day
00:31:06
ever. They're not taking me. This is so
00:31:08
cool." And dad goes, "Good news, bad
00:31:09
news, who knows?"
00:31:12
>> That dowist parable
00:31:14
also told in the story of maybe is one
00:31:19
of the core understandings of allowing
00:31:23
you to move through your [ __ ]
00:31:26
So, if you read that first book, it
00:31:29
reads like a [ __ ] Shortland Street um
00:31:32
narrative of my uh my ex-wife.
00:31:37
Um I have been married twice.
00:31:39
>> You're bringing the average up.
00:31:40
>> Yeah, I know. Um she basically left me
00:31:45
then, um found out about 6 weeks later
00:31:48
she'd been sleeping with a friend of
00:31:51
ours for about 9 months. Then um
00:31:53
>> this is during your your depression
00:31:55
bout.
00:31:55
>> This is so
00:31:58
so when I finally succumbed to the
00:32:01
understanding that I was really not in a
00:32:04
good way and there was something wrong
00:32:05
with me. I went and saw five different
00:32:07
psychologists and they were all [ __ ]
00:32:09
>> and they didn't help me. And then my dad
00:32:12
found me this one last dude and I went
00:32:14
to him and he was brilliant guy called
00:32:16
Dr. John Mchuan. And um within an hour
00:32:20
he kind of explained me to me and then
00:32:23
said just do these things and and I was
00:32:25
like uh okay. And I walked out of there
00:32:28
with hope with understanding and I was
00:32:30
like holy [ __ ] this is going to be
00:32:32
better. And then 7 days later my wife
00:32:34
left me. And
00:32:37
he said that that is quite a standard
00:32:40
thing because the the the partner will
00:32:43
stay with the person because they fear
00:32:46
of if they left it would compound and
00:32:48
then that person probably would kill
00:32:50
themselves. So like I understand that
00:32:55
from that perspective.
00:32:57
Um and then uh a few weeks later we
00:33:01
found out she was pregnant and went to
00:33:02
figure out who it was. not man.
00:33:07
And so um like that broke me broke me
00:33:10
broke me.
00:33:11
>> [ __ ]
00:33:12
>> Right.
00:33:13
>> Broke me and
00:33:20
I can cut this bit out cuz I forgot
00:33:21
where we were going.
00:33:24
>> Oh um
00:33:25
>> um
00:33:25
>> yeah, we just talking about the your
00:33:27
marriage break.
00:33:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
00:33:30
And so that was the worst thing that
00:33:34
ever happened to me in my entire life.
00:33:36
Not my depression,
00:33:37
>> but that heartbreak and that betrayal.
00:33:40
That was the worst thing that ever
00:33:41
happened to me in my entire life.
00:33:45
And then 3 months later, I met Libby.
00:33:49
The best thing that ever happened to me
00:33:50
in my entire life.
00:33:53
still to this day, even though we're not
00:33:54
together anymore, we amicably uh
00:33:57
separated and moved uh moved on. But
00:34:02
what was ostensibly the worst thing
00:34:05
ever,
00:34:07
if that had not happened, I would not
00:34:11
have met Libby three and a half, four
00:34:13
months later, I think.
00:34:14
>> Mhm.
00:34:15
Like so so if I had continued with that
00:34:19
narrative that that was the worst thing
00:34:20
ever, I could have ended up going down
00:34:22
some big thing, right? But but
00:34:24
understanding that we don't know whether
00:34:27
that's good or bad turns out best thing
00:34:30
that ever happened to me.
00:34:31
>> Best thing that ever happened to me, the
00:34:34
end of that marriage,
00:34:36
>> which led me into a whole new life and a
00:34:39
whole new world with Libby that's led me
00:34:41
to now. And even though we've separated
00:34:44
and I went through a lot of pain letting
00:34:47
her go,
00:34:49
>> still
00:34:51
I don't know if that'll be the best
00:34:52
thing that ever happened to me, but I
00:34:54
definitely know that it's not the worst
00:34:56
thing and I can't judge it
00:34:59
>> until I have perspective on it.
00:35:01
>> Well, it's surprising how many people
00:35:03
say that. Like they'll go through some
00:35:04
big adversity and then they'll look back
00:35:05
look back and um you just Yeah, you just
00:35:09
um spilled some water on your on your
00:35:10
beard. Is is the beard a um
00:35:12
>> I'm a mess.
00:35:13
>> I'm a mess.
00:35:15
>> We got that on camera. Good. Um yeah,
00:35:18
lot a lot of people that go through a
00:35:19
big adversity, they with the benefit of
00:35:21
some hindsight, they often look back and
00:35:22
say it's the best thing that ever
00:35:23
happened.
00:35:24
>> Yeah. Well, it's interesting like there
00:35:26
was a there was a study done that I read
00:35:28
that um so you have uh let's say you go
00:35:31
through something a trauma and they
00:35:33
studied people who had gone through uh
00:35:36
plane crashes, cancer, like all sorts of
00:35:39
things, right?
00:35:40
And you basically end up in three
00:35:42
different categories. Uh post-traumatic
00:35:45
stress disorder.
00:35:48
Okay.
00:35:50
Or post-traumatic growth.
00:35:53
Right? And so when they studied all
00:35:54
these people, for argument sake, it's
00:35:56
close enough too. Um they basically
00:35:58
ended up a third, a third, a third,
00:36:01
right? So a third ended up with PTSD, a
00:36:04
third were okay, and a third ended up
00:36:05
with post-traumatic growth. And they
00:36:07
went, "Well, that's pretty interesting."
00:36:09
like why is it split like that? And
00:36:12
obviously how could we have more people
00:36:15
in the post-traumatic growth or at least
00:36:17
the the okay?
00:36:21
And so the answer seems so paradoxical
00:36:26
and crazy, but what they figured out was
00:36:30
what box you ended up in was the box
00:36:34
that you believed you would end up in.
00:36:38
If you believed you were going to be
00:36:39
traumatized by it, PTSD. If you
00:36:42
believed, oh, I'll be okay, you were
00:36:43
going to be okay. And if you believed
00:36:45
that you were going to grow and learn
00:36:46
from this,
00:36:48
>> then that's what you did.
00:36:49
>> That's so interesting.
00:36:50
>> General terms, right? And this is about
00:36:52
like us creating our own reality, right?
00:36:55
And so when we when we make a decision,
00:36:58
then we follow through with all the
00:36:59
micro decisions based off the back. It
00:37:01
leads us in particular paths in
00:37:02
particular ways. And so if we're like
00:37:05
it's kind of like the the yellow car
00:37:08
theory whereas like you buy a yellow car
00:37:10
and then you start seeing yellow cars
00:37:11
absolutely everywhere, right? You see
00:37:14
what your attention is on.
00:37:16
>> If you're looking for [ __ ] you'll find
00:37:18
[ __ ] If you're looking for good stuff,
00:37:20
you will find it.
00:37:22
>> And
00:37:24
even like worst case scenario kind of
00:37:26
like me is that I ended up in
00:37:29
post-traumatic growth out of spite.
00:37:32
How do you mean?
00:37:34
>> Like like [ __ ] her. She's not going to
00:37:35
ruin my life. I'm going to be good
00:37:38
regardless of what happened to me.
00:37:40
Right.
00:37:40
>> Do you talking about
00:37:41
>> my my my first one?
00:37:43
>> First one. Yeah. How do you how do you
00:37:44
reflect on that now? Like um that's it's
00:37:46
it's it's pretty brutal like breaking up
00:37:49
and she's seeing seeing one of your
00:37:50
mates.
00:37:50
>> But so like I have zero zero bad
00:37:54
feelings towards her. I wish her all the
00:37:56
happiness in the world. Um, like I still
00:38:00
love her for so many reasons, but as a
00:38:03
30-year-old man, I was angry at her and
00:38:05
I didn't understand and and and all of
00:38:08
that side of it. Um,
00:38:09
>> cuz you you you wouldn't have been easy
00:38:11
living with you at the height of your
00:38:12
depression.
00:38:14
No. So, it was interesting when I wrote
00:38:15
my first book, which told a lot of those
00:38:18
stories. Um, Libby was there to
00:38:21
proofread it. And Libby being one of the
00:38:24
wisest people I know, she said to me,
00:38:27
"You should probably go back and rewrite
00:38:32
yourself worse and write her better."
00:38:36
>> Cuz I don't think you were probably
00:38:39
objective enough on it. And I was like,
00:38:42
"Oh god, you're probably right." And so
00:38:44
I went back and
00:38:45
>> Oh, did you were you the like the victim
00:38:47
in the story or
00:38:48
>> Yeah, probably to to more of a thing.
00:38:51
you know, you want to be the victim. You
00:38:52
want to be the agrieved party. You don't
00:38:54
want to be the one that did anything
00:38:56
wrong. And though and sort of it's
00:38:59
easier to paint that narrative with the
00:39:01
actual actions that happened,
00:39:04
>> whereas mine were more what I'd call
00:39:07
micro in terms of the relationship. It's
00:39:10
like I was probably a [ __ ] husband.
00:39:12
>> Like, you know, in my late 20s in that
00:39:15
state, not understanding anything. I was
00:39:18
probably a [ __ ] husband who was really
00:39:19
hard to live with. M
00:39:21
>> and so I don't agree with cheating in
00:39:24
any um thing like that like it's just a
00:39:28
moral thing that I don't like but like I
00:39:31
can also understand why she might have
00:39:35
>> and so I don't hold any negativity
00:39:36
towards her in that regard.
00:39:39
>> Yeah.
00:39:40
Yeah. So um on this you did a TED talk
00:39:43
and uh the line in there was um that you
00:39:45
used was I was 92% of the way through
00:39:47
destroying my marriage. So yeah, you're
00:39:49
taking you're giving her 8% of the blame
00:39:52
or what?
00:39:52
>> Yeah.
00:39:53
>> Well, no. Well, yeah. Well, maybe is
00:39:55
that what I said in my TED talk?
00:39:56
Awesome. I remember what I had for lunch
00:39:58
yesterday. So, um
00:40:00
>> that's Yeah, that that's use to to me
00:40:02
that says you're you're owning it.
00:40:03
>> Yeah.
00:40:05
>> So, that TED talk was a few years after
00:40:09
the that and I think definitely at that
00:40:12
stage, yeah, if I Yeah, I was probably
00:40:15
92% of the way through ruining my
00:40:17
marriage. Um, not um,
00:40:22
not consciously.
00:40:24
Obviously, I didn't want to ruin my
00:40:26
marriage, but I was ruining my marriage
00:40:29
through the inability to be able to look
00:40:32
after myself.
00:40:36
>> Yeah. I'm pleased there's still like a
00:40:37
friendship there now.
00:40:38
>> No [ __ ] No, I haven't seen her.
00:40:40
>> Oh, there isn't?
00:40:40
>> No. I've literally not heard or seen her
00:40:43
since she rang me and told me she was
00:40:45
pregnant.
00:40:47
>> Oh.
00:40:48
No,
00:40:50
there's the the the We'll get on to the
00:40:52
um the the um Wet River on a lio um
00:40:55
challenge, but she you made a
00:40:56
documentary about that and she was in
00:40:57
the documentary.
00:40:58
>> Yeah. The the production crew when I saw
00:41:01
her.
00:41:01
>> Oh,
00:41:04
I assumed everything was good cuz it was
00:41:05
like the the the caption in the
00:41:07
documentary is like um you Jimmy's
00:41:08
ex-wife. Yeah. So, I thought it was it
00:41:10
was friendly.
00:41:11
>> Oh, no. Well, it was nice of her to take
00:41:13
part in the docu
00:41:17
research can only get you so far.
00:41:19
>> Yeah, lit literally. Um, they the like I
00:41:22
was actually I was worried about it. I
00:41:25
didn't know what she was going to say or
00:41:26
what was going to happen. And
00:41:28
>> I know she was very kind. I thought she
00:41:29
she was very warm in the docker. She was
00:41:31
she was and you know the production crew
00:41:33
were really lovely and um you know they
00:41:36
said I didn't see it before the
00:41:38
documentary came out um but yeah
00:41:45
um okay yeah so the the so you got out
00:41:48
of that bout of depression the three
00:41:49
years um you made it through the other
00:41:50
side
00:41:51
>> and that's when you started doing um
00:41:53
epic [ __ ] with your life.
00:41:56
Yeah. I mean, I was doing some cool [ __ ]
00:41:57
before, but not on a scale that you're
00:42:00
about to say yes.
00:42:01
>> Yeah. So, um, yeah, pedling down the
00:42:03
Weta River on a lio, 425 km. Um,
00:42:08
and that's sort of like a a tipping
00:42:10
point, I guess, in the in the Jimmy Hunt
00:42:11
story, right? When you Yeah.
00:42:13
>> Yeah. There's a there's a massive
00:42:14
tipping point. So, this that tipping
00:42:18
point came before the end of my
00:42:20
marriage. So it came I can't remember
00:42:24
exactly but maybe it was May in a year
00:42:28
and I was in this really bad place and I
00:42:32
realized that there was one thing that
00:42:35
always made me happy, one thing that
00:42:38
would always uh like help drive me
00:42:41
forward and that was going on
00:42:42
adventures.
00:42:44
And so I decided that my tomorrow had to
00:42:48
be different than my today cuz my today
00:42:50
sucked. And so
00:42:53
I sat down and as I do I came up with a
00:42:57
random idea. And the idea was to swim an
00:43:01
$8 pool float a lio from Tapo to Port
00:43:07
Wetto the entire length of the Wetto
00:43:09
River. And
00:43:11
I turned to Joe and said, "Uh, I think
00:43:16
I'm going to lie the white kiddo." And
00:43:18
she's like, "How long is that? How far?"
00:43:22
And I was like, "I don't know." And so I
00:43:25
I Googled it and went, "Oh, [ __ ] 425
00:43:28
km. That's quite quite a long way." Um,
00:43:31
and I was like, "All right." And so
00:43:33
Facebook was a useful platform back in
00:43:34
the day. So, I went to my Facebook post
00:43:37
and posted, "I'm going to lio the white
00:43:40
kiddo." And a lot of people wrote a
00:43:42
whole bunch of comments. Uh, you're an
00:43:44
idiot. Um, you're going to die. Um,
00:43:46
legend. And then this guy whose name is
00:43:49
Guy said, uh, when are you going to do
00:43:52
it? And I was like, well, it's May. I'm
00:43:56
fat and overweight and unfit and it's
00:43:59
cold, so February.
00:44:03
And he's like, cool. what date in
00:44:05
February? I was like, uh, I looked up
00:44:08
the first Saturday in February. It was
00:44:09
like 7th or something. And I said,
00:44:11
"Seventh of February." He's like, "Cool.
00:44:12
I'll be there to see you off." And I was
00:44:15
like, "Fuck."
00:44:19
Okay, now I have to do it. Like, I've
00:44:21
made it public. I've said I'm going to
00:44:23
do it. This guy's now made me make a
00:44:25
date for it. And so, here it is. And so
00:44:29
the thing about having a a goal like
00:44:32
that or adventure like that is when you
00:44:34
make a a big plan, then in order to
00:44:38
actually have this come to fruition, you
00:44:40
have to start breaking it down. So you
00:44:42
got to start training, you start eating
00:44:43
better, you got to start doing all of
00:44:44
these things. You'll start planning in
00:44:47
order to make this a reality. And so
00:44:49
every day that I woke up,
00:44:53
you know, well, like you say, eight
00:44:54
months later, I was like, this is what I
00:44:57
have to do. And so, what can I do today
00:45:01
to help make that a thing? And so for
00:45:05
the next eight months, I just woke up
00:45:07
every day going, "Okay, what am I doing
00:45:09
today to do this stupid adventure that
00:45:11
means nothing?"
00:45:13
>> Oh, you mean like getting physically
00:45:14
fit, you mean?
00:45:15
>> Yeah. like anything I could do whether
00:45:17
it's you know um uh physically fit or
00:45:20
just eating better um or planning like I
00:45:24
didn't do much of that but um yeah
00:45:26
mainly physical fitness was was about
00:45:28
getting fit for
00:45:28
>> and and you went through um 26 lios
00:45:31
>> no I think so did you do that research I
00:45:35
don't think it was 26 I think it might
00:45:37
have been like 13 or 14 or something
00:45:38
like that
00:45:39
>> um
00:45:39
>> a lot they were [ __ ]
00:45:41
>> 10 bucks 10 bucks at the warehouse they
00:45:43
leaked
00:45:44
>> what were the um what Yes. That was like
00:45:45
2 weeks. 2 weeks on the the Wetto River
00:45:48
from start to finish.
00:45:48
>> Took me 12 days.
00:45:49
>> 12. Yeah. 12 days.
00:45:50
>> 12 days.
00:45:51
>> Um and got massive massive mainstream
00:45:54
news coverage.
00:45:55
>> Yeah.
00:45:55
>> Um
00:45:56
>> and they made a documentary about it
00:45:58
like you said.
00:45:59
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:59
>> What were the biggest lessons from that
00:46:00
experience?
00:46:01
>> Ask for help. That's my simple lesson
00:46:03
that came out of all of that. Um that's
00:46:05
what my TED talk was on. That was at
00:46:07
that time in our culture in New Zealand.
00:46:11
Um, you know, John Kermit had started
00:46:13
this uh, oh, depression is a thing
00:46:17
>> thing. And then I really just wanted to
00:46:19
drive through this this ask for help
00:46:21
thing because it wasn't until I asked
00:46:23
for help that
00:46:25
>> I got some and then it started getting
00:46:27
better.
00:46:29
Ironic, right? Imagine that. And so, and
00:46:33
one of one of the interesting sort of
00:46:34
stories off the back of ask for help was
00:46:37
like when you're in that bad state, like
00:46:40
you're not very good at your business.
00:46:41
You don't, you know, I had
00:46:43
self-employed, so I wasn't making as
00:46:44
much money. I pretty much had no money
00:46:46
left. And I couldn't really afford to do
00:46:48
this adventure. And I just trying to
00:46:50
figure out and make it work. And two
00:46:52
main components were going to cost me a
00:46:54
bunch of money. One is um
00:46:57
food and one is accommodation. And so I
00:47:01
came up with a pretty simple plan which
00:47:03
was that I was to ask for help. And so
00:47:06
each night I would get out of the river
00:47:07
and I would uh go up to the nearest
00:47:10
house. I'd knock on the door and say,
00:47:12
"Hi, my name's Jimmy. I just happen to
00:47:13
be liloing your river out here. Can I
00:47:15
please stay the night and have some
00:47:16
food?" And the the thing with that is um
00:47:24
that's a tough thing to do for a man
00:47:27
with depression and anxiety. And so,
00:47:30
like, I wouldn't lie, like I would spend
00:47:34
probably half an hour each night on the
00:47:36
side of the river
00:47:38
looking at all the houses trying to
00:47:40
figure out which one looked the kindest.
00:47:43
Finally get up enough courage out of
00:47:45
desperation, go knock on the door. And
00:47:47
in the end, my friend and I, we tried to
00:47:49
figure out how many people I'd have to
00:47:51
knock on the door, how many houses I'd
00:47:53
knock on before I'd get um 11 people to
00:47:57
let me stay the night. And in the end, I
00:48:00
had to knock on a grand total of 11
00:48:03
doors.
00:48:05
Literally, every single person opened
00:48:07
the door and said, "Hey, um I explained
00:48:10
to them what was going on." They're
00:48:11
like, "Yeah, please uh come inside. Stay
00:48:14
on my couch from the spare room on the
00:48:16
floor, whatever. Here's some dinner."
00:48:18
Then, um I'd wake up in the morning.
00:48:20
Want some breakfast? Yes, please. Can I
00:48:22
pack you a lunch? Like, [ __ ] yes,
00:48:23
please. Mhm.
00:48:26
>> And we just don't quite understand how
00:48:31
many beautiful, wonderful people are out
00:48:35
there who are willing to help.
00:48:38
>> If asked,
00:48:41
they will not help if they are not asked
00:48:44
to help cuz they will feel like they're
00:48:46
intruding. And that's one of the
00:48:47
interesting concepts is they get it's
00:48:50
kind of like you ever had a mentor?
00:48:52
>> Yes.
00:48:53
>> Yeah. like you feel like you're taking
00:48:55
from that mentor, right? That you're
00:48:57
getting all the things and you're not
00:48:58
giving them very much. But if I went and
00:49:00
asked your mentor what they got out of
00:49:03
being with you, they would have they'll
00:49:05
say all these list of things. They loved
00:49:07
it. They people get joy from giving and
00:49:11
being asked to help. And if we do not
00:49:14
ask for help, we are literally stealing
00:49:17
potential joy from people.
00:49:21
>> We need more people asking for help. So
00:49:23
more people can help and get joy from
00:49:24
that help.
00:49:27
>> And yet we're so scared to do it.
00:49:28
>> Well, it's like the uh the saying giving
00:49:30
is better than receiving.
00:49:31
>> Of course it is.
00:49:32
>> Um Oh, yes. So, so during that um that
00:49:37
um river experience um Yeah. around
00:49:40
about the time you were going through
00:49:40
Huntley, there was an incident where um
00:49:43
a teenage boy uh had jumped off the um
00:49:46
the rail bridge in Huntley into the
00:49:48
water and and was was missing, presumed
00:49:50
drown. And you you happened to stumble
00:49:52
across the body the same time as the
00:49:55
boy's uncle who was out looking for him.
00:49:57
>> Yeah.
00:49:59
>> Yeah. I mean this
00:49:59
>> that must have been tough.
00:50:01
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was tough.
00:50:04
Um and it was really tough.
00:50:09
So fast forward just to after that
00:50:13
I have to keep swimming down the river.
00:50:18
So after the cops came and we did all
00:50:21
the things and um the uncle went back to
00:50:25
the family on the riverbank, you know,
00:50:27
dozens of them hugged him and all that
00:50:29
and I got in the river and kept swimming
00:50:32
and I only lasted maybe a kilometer or
00:50:35
two
00:50:37
because
00:50:39
um
00:50:41
I had never dealt with the dead body
00:50:43
before. I'd never dealt with death in
00:50:45
that way.
00:50:47
Most of us don't. Most of us, you might
00:50:49
you might there might be an open casket
00:50:50
at at a funeral, but apart from that,
00:50:52
most of us won't see a dead body.
00:50:54
>> And I just broke down. Like I absolutely
00:50:59
broke broke broke down. Um and I was
00:51:03
just inconsolable
00:51:06
by myself
00:51:08
on a lio in the Weta River.
00:51:12
And
00:51:14
I got a phone call
00:51:17
because a lot of um a lot of media had
00:51:20
my number. Uh back then I had an iPhone
00:51:23
with a waterproof pouch that I could
00:51:26
kind of push the buttons through the
00:51:27
pouch.
00:51:29
And I got a phone call and it was from a
00:51:31
number I didn't know and I answered it
00:51:32
and it was radio New Zealand
00:51:35
and they went, "We hear you just
00:51:37
stumbled across the body." And I was
00:51:39
like, "Yeah." And they're like, "Um, can
00:51:42
we talk to you about it?" And I was
00:51:43
like, "Um,
00:51:46
yeah." And they go, "Cool. We're on the
00:51:48
air in three, two." I was like, "Oh,
00:51:51
[ __ ]
00:51:54
I have no idea what they asked me. I
00:51:56
have no idea what I said."
00:51:59
When I hung up,
00:52:01
I was like
00:52:03
so disappointed in myself
00:52:06
because it was just not my place to say
00:52:10
anything or like like talk to the family
00:52:12
about it. Yeah, I know some random dude
00:52:15
on Lilo was part of it, but like it
00:52:18
wasn't my place to be able to talk about
00:52:20
that situation and I did it and it hurt
00:52:22
my feelings that I did that.
00:52:25
And so
00:52:25
>> you didn't have a lot of lot of time to
00:52:27
think about it though in fairness to
00:52:29
you.
00:52:29
>> I know in fairness to me but they
00:52:31
literally went 321 where oh [ __ ] And so
00:52:36
you know radio New Zealand I'm major um
00:52:39
media outlet and so lots of um people
00:52:43
listen to that and things pop off off
00:52:44
the back of that. And
00:52:48
I started getting phone calls which I
00:52:50
just ignored. And I got a phone call
00:52:53
from my friend Locky and my friend
00:52:58
answered the phone and he said, "Mom's
00:53:00
dead."
00:53:02
And I was like, "Shit."
00:53:05
And I spent the next probably hour and a
00:53:07
half, two hours floating slowly down the
00:53:10
river talking to him about his mom who'
00:53:12
just died that day. Never told him
00:53:17
what was going on, what I was doing,
00:53:18
what had been happening. And I just
00:53:19
talked to him. And then when I hung up
00:53:21
that, I had about 50 mis calls, bunch of
00:53:24
them from my mother, um asking if I was
00:53:26
okay.
00:53:27
>> Um and it was one of the toughest
00:53:32
days that I'd ever had to to deal with.
00:53:36
>> And I still had about like there's no
00:53:39
houses on that. I still had about like
00:53:41
20ks to paddle, swim that day before I
00:53:44
got I got in like 11:00 at night.
00:53:46
>> Um I didn't want to bother anybody.
00:53:50
um
00:53:51
I don't want to go knock on anyone's
00:53:53
door. So, I didn't know where I was
00:53:54
going to stay. Um cuz like turning up at
00:53:57
11 o'clock at night or you know 10:30 or
00:53:59
whatever it was was like
00:54:02
and so
00:54:04
um I got to Tala and there's a tavern
00:54:08
there and I went in and I asked if I
00:54:11
could stay at the hotel there for free
00:54:14
and the manager was like I can't make
00:54:17
that call only the owners can and
00:54:20
they're in Oakuckland. And I was like oh
00:54:22
don't worry about it bro I'll figure it
00:54:24
out. and he said, "No, no, no." And he
00:54:25
called them up at like 11:00 at night
00:54:28
and said, "Hey, can this guy stay for
00:54:30
free?" And they said, "Yes." Um, and I
00:54:34
still like [ __ ] that's beautiful. I
00:54:36
love that.
00:54:37
>> But whilst that was one of the hardest
00:54:40
days of my life,
00:54:43
an interesting point was that was the
00:54:47
literal
00:54:50
spiritual awakening of my life that day.
00:54:54
Um, and it's a long story which I'll
00:54:57
make it very very short.
00:55:00
Three women who I did not know
00:55:05
told me I was going to find that body
00:55:08
before I found that body.
00:55:12
When I was talking to the uncle on the
00:55:14
sandbank in the middle of that river, I
00:55:16
asked him how he ended up there and he
00:55:18
was like, "You won't believe me. Two
00:55:21
women had told him to go and find that
00:55:23
body
00:55:25
before it was there.
00:55:28
So in total, five women had told the
00:55:31
pair of us that we were going to end up
00:55:33
in that spot that day before it had
00:55:34
happened.
00:55:36
And that was the day that made me go, I
00:55:39
don't understand how the universe works.
00:55:42
I don't understand what this is or how
00:55:44
this works. And then every day after
00:55:48
that got stranger and stranger and more
00:55:50
mystical and more
00:55:53
weird woman turned up in my life and led
00:55:56
me down a whole path to where I am now
00:55:58
which is I believe in everything and
00:56:01
some of the things I've seen and do uh
00:56:04
blow my own mind and I don't even
00:56:05
understand them.
00:56:06
>> Yeah.
00:56:07
>> And you attract weird women to your
00:56:08
life. It seems
00:56:09
>> it seems it it seems to be the case.
00:56:11
like, "No, this is like it's kind of
00:56:14
insane." Like like these women will come
00:56:16
in to my life for like a day.
00:56:20
>> One one of them was like a day came in
00:56:23
sat next to me at the beach in Mexico
00:56:25
and and said these things and um I said,
00:56:29
"Oh, you know, this is the Yeah. had
00:56:30
deep discussions and and like this is
00:56:32
what I'm trying to figure out." And
00:56:33
she's like, "Boom." and we sat and
00:56:35
meditated and and she did some weird
00:56:37
energy thing on me and then a whole new
00:56:39
world opened up to me.
00:56:41
>> Um, and then she left again.
00:56:44
>> Well, I suppose if if you if you're open
00:56:46
to these experiences, then that's when
00:56:48
they they happen.
00:56:49
>> So, that's that's exactly it. I mean, I
00:56:50
could I could do 20 hours on on this
00:56:53
sort of stuff, but it like like I I grew
00:56:56
up a militant atheist. like just like I
00:56:58
it's what I can see what I can
00:57:00
understand what science tells me and
00:57:02
then this world has just got really
00:57:05
really strange and the more I connect to
00:57:07
it the the easier my life is the more I
00:57:10
understand it and the more beautiful it
00:57:12
becomes.
00:57:12
>> Yeah. So um after the Wetto thing that's
00:57:16
when you sort of blew up right like
00:57:18
public speaking books.
00:57:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
00:57:22
>> life changed just dramatically.
00:57:24
>> Yeah. Like I was literally just going to
00:57:26
be a dude who went and lieloed the
00:57:29
river. And I I'd liloaded other rivers
00:57:32
before that. Um
00:57:33
>> it wasn't your first rodeo.
00:57:34
>> It wasn't my first rodeo, but just
00:57:35
little ones, right? Just for for for a
00:57:37
day sort of thing. Um
00:57:40
I literally did it for me and for nobody
00:57:43
else. And I had no concept that me doing
00:57:46
it and sharing my story would become
00:57:49
such a thing.
00:57:51
Again, it's a real crazy story about how
00:57:53
that even happened. You know, Matt
00:57:55
Chism.
00:57:56
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah.
00:57:58
News journalist.
00:57:59
>> News journalist.
00:58:00
>> Um Treasure Island host. Then he's
00:58:02
written a couple of books now. He sort
00:58:03
of turned his back on the media and I
00:58:04
think he's in a farm. Yeah. Exactly. You
00:58:08
know, has a good story about depression
00:58:09
and everything as well.
00:58:11
Um so after I had separated from my
00:58:14
first wife, there was a wedding and um
00:58:18
the I drove my car as the wedding car
00:58:23
and so I got to the reception with the
00:58:24
bride and groom first, but because it
00:58:26
was soon after they hadn't um they
00:58:29
hadn't changed our seating, I was
00:58:31
sitting next to um my ex-wife, which I
00:58:35
didn't want to do. And so because I'm
00:58:38
walking around, I pick her up. I move
00:58:40
her down to the other end of the
00:58:42
building and I swap some people out and
00:58:45
I end up sitting next to Matt Chisum
00:58:47
because of this
00:58:49
and he's like, "What are you up to?" And
00:58:53
I was like, "I'm training for this Lilo
00:58:54
the Yet thing." He's like, "What's
00:58:56
that?" He's like, "Why? Why are you
00:58:58
doing this?" And my tagline up until
00:59:01
that moment was just cuz. Like, I'm just
00:59:03
doing it just cuz. And I just got to
00:59:06
some like I was in a bad space that day.
00:59:09
that was hard for me that day. And I was
00:59:11
like, he said, "Why?" And I'm like,
00:59:14
"Because I'm [ __ ] depressed and I
00:59:16
have to do something about this." And he
00:59:18
goes, "Oh, okay." And he listened and we
00:59:21
talked about it. And he goes, "Can I do
00:59:23
a story about this?" I was like, "Who
00:59:25
are you?" He's like, "I'm Matt Chisum
00:59:27
and I work for Closeup." I was like,
00:59:29
"Oh,
00:59:32
okay."
00:59:34
And so he goes and pitches it and they
00:59:37
say, "No, we won't do a story about it
00:59:41
because nothing's happened yet." Like,
00:59:43
"We'll do a story about it when you do
00:59:44
it." And I But after that catalyst, I g,
00:59:48
okay, I want to do this. I want to make
00:59:50
this a thing. And so he said, "Look, is
00:59:53
there a way that you can do something
00:59:55
beforehand that would be storyw worthy?"
00:59:57
And I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I
00:59:59
train by swimming my lielo from Naron
01:00:03
Beach to Rangitoto. And he's like, "Holy
01:00:05
[ __ ] that's good." Um, and so they got
01:00:08
across the line, they hired a boat um
01:00:10
about 4 500 meters offshore uh from
01:00:14
Narin Beach. I'm caught in the current
01:00:16
of the tides whipping through between
01:00:18
Northhead and Rangi Toto. I'm battling
01:00:21
myself and he looks down. He goes,
01:00:23
"You've never done this before, eh?"
01:00:26
And I was like, "Nah, bro."
01:00:30
He's like, "Do you want to ride to
01:00:32
Rangonto?" I was like, "Yes, please."
01:00:34
And so they drove me to Rangonto. And
01:00:37
then I jumped out of the boat and swam
01:00:39
up to the other side. Two thumbs up.
01:00:41
>> Get the piece for camera.
01:00:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then that that piece on
01:00:46
closeup was what started the real big
01:00:49
snowball of everything.
01:00:51
And it was really just a normal dude
01:00:54
telling his story with vulnerability
01:00:56
that really resonated and amassed a lot
01:01:00
of social media following. Um then um
01:01:04
book publishers came and asked me to
01:01:05
come and write my um my memoir they
01:01:09
called it. Um and then you know all of
01:01:13
these things started happening off the
01:01:14
back of that.
01:01:16
>> Yeah. Where was Matt at at at that
01:01:18
point? Um was he was he was he drinking
01:01:20
at the wedding? Was he still drinking?
01:01:21
Had had he cuz he's he's been very
01:01:23
public about his mental health
01:01:24
struggles.
01:01:25
>> Yeah. So this was before this was this
01:01:26
was pre anything. This was pre anything.
01:01:30
Um and um you know I mean I wouldn't
01:01:34
claim anything around it but like um me
01:01:38
and him you know he came he came down um
01:01:42
to the Lilo while I was doing it as well
01:01:44
did another story. And so we we had a
01:01:46
whole thing um over the next couple of
01:01:48
years talking about this stuff between
01:01:50
us. Yeah.
01:01:51
>> And was it after that after the Lilo
01:01:53
that you formed Live More Awesome?
01:01:55
>> Yeah. So when I got out like I I'd
01:01:57
created all of this momentum and then I
01:01:59
realized like so I ended up with like
01:02:01
25,000 people on a Facebook event page
01:02:05
cuz I didn't have anything for them to
01:02:07
follow back in those days, right? And I
01:02:09
was like, "Oh, now this event's
01:02:11
finished. I can't even talk to these
01:02:12
people anymore." like they they all just
01:02:14
disappeared cuz like I was like what was
01:02:16
the point in even collecting them there
01:02:18
and I was like I need an entity in order
01:02:21
to if I'm going to do anything else in
01:02:23
this advocacy I need I need something
01:02:25
and so I just sat down and came up with
01:02:27
the name Live More Awesome because
01:02:29
everyone would like to live just a
01:02:31
little bit more awesome.
01:02:33
>> Yeah. And and was it the water slide
01:02:36
after that?
01:02:37
>> Yeah. So I mean we sort of we did a
01:02:39
whole bunch of little things. Um,
01:02:41
>> what are some of the other little things
01:02:42
that I may have missed?
01:02:43
>> Ah, like um like just dumb little things
01:02:47
like um I did New Zealand's biggest
01:02:49
water balloon fight
01:02:51
um where where we had a couple hundred
01:02:53
people throwing thousands of water
01:02:55
balloons at each other. Just little
01:02:56
little fun things like that. But then I
01:02:58
did um like I did a gratitude in schools
01:03:01
program. I got a grant for like 10 grand
01:03:04
and we got like 20,000 gratitude
01:03:06
journals printed up and put them in
01:03:07
schools and stuff like that. But it got
01:03:10
to this point where
01:03:12
I was really really adamant that the way
01:03:15
that we were talking about mental health
01:03:17
was insufficient cuz we talk about
01:03:19
mental health in a inherently negative
01:03:22
way. So if somebody like if you watch
01:03:25
the news or something
01:03:27
quite often they will say somebody was
01:03:29
suffering from mental health. M
01:03:32
>> you're like, "No, they may have been
01:03:34
suffering from a mental illness,
01:03:37
>> but they weren't suffering from mental
01:03:39
health. Mental health is just a thing."
01:03:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. That annoys me so much.
01:03:43
Everyone has mental health.
01:03:44
>> Exactly.
01:03:45
>> And so that's when I started realizing
01:03:47
that there were two binary options for
01:03:50
us. You were either mentally ill
01:03:52
>> or you were mentally well.
01:03:54
>> Those were your two choices for a long
01:03:56
long long time. And no one wanted to be
01:04:00
mentally ill. And so if they weren't
01:04:02
mentally ill, they would just if they
01:04:04
were mentally ill, they'd just be
01:04:05
saying, "No, no, no. I'm mentally well."
01:04:07
Those were the two boxes. And that's
01:04:09
when I really wanted to start talking
01:04:11
about my continuum and my rebrand from
01:04:16
mental health to mental fitness
01:04:20
because we inherently understand what
01:04:22
fitness means because we all inherently
01:04:25
understand physical fitness and we've
01:04:27
been taught it our entire lives.
01:04:30
Everyone has some level of physical
01:04:33
fitness, right? So if I say, are you
01:04:36
fit?
01:04:38
You might go yes or you go yeah, no.
01:04:40
Like like where where's that line of
01:04:43
you're not fit and you are fit, right?
01:04:47
Physical fitness is a continuum. You put
01:04:50
in small incremental efforts over time,
01:04:52
you get physically fitter, and then you
01:04:54
get all the benefits of being physically
01:04:55
fit. Mental fitness is exactly the same
01:04:58
way. Small incremental
01:05:03
activities done over time make you
01:05:05
mentally fitter.
01:05:07
>> The more mentally fit you are, the more
01:05:09
you're able to deal with what comes
01:05:11
along. I have two very scientific words
01:05:14
for the top and the bottom of my
01:05:15
continuum. And um at the bottom is
01:05:19
fuckwithable,
01:05:20
right? So if you're down the bottom of
01:05:22
the mental fitness continuum, you're
01:05:24
[ __ ] Everything [ __ ] with you.
01:05:26
Other people [ __ ] with you. The weather
01:05:27
[ __ ] with you. Traffic [ __ ] with you.
01:05:29
Like everything [ __ ] with you.
01:05:32
>> If you are up high 90s to 100,
01:05:36
you are unfuckwithable.
01:05:39
It doesn't matter what happens. You're
01:05:41
the you're the Chinese farmer.
01:05:44
You're just like that happens. Okay.
01:05:46
That doesn't happen. Okay. It's there's
01:05:48
there's literally nothing
01:05:51
that can [ __ ] with you. And so the more
01:05:54
effort and the more tools and the more
01:05:57
understanding that you get over time and
01:05:59
move yourself up that continuum, the
01:06:01
more unfuckwithable you become
01:06:03
>> and the easier, happier, and more
01:06:06
peaceful your life is.
01:06:07
>> And so I needed so I needed to um I
01:06:10
needed to get that across. That was the
01:06:12
point here. I needed to get that across,
01:06:14
but nobody would listen.
01:06:16
And so I came up with a very simple
01:06:18
thing which was I would manipulate the
01:06:20
media to be able to do that by building
01:06:22
the world's biggest water slide
01:06:24
>> which was [ __ ] great. It was 650 m.
01:06:27
>> No, 601.98
01:06:29
says Guinness.
01:06:31
>> I I
01:06:31
>> So it was a world record at the time.
01:06:33
>> Yeah.
01:06:33
>> Yeah. It is a Guinness World Record. I
01:06:35
don't know if anyone's beaten it. Um
01:06:37
someone probably would have told me if
01:06:38
they had. Um 601.98 m long.
01:06:41
>> Yeah. And and this um you got even like
01:06:44
international news coverage like he had
01:06:45
like a nine nine minute piece on like
01:06:48
Good Morning America or something.
01:06:49
>> Yeah, it was the Today Show.
01:06:50
>> The Today Show, right?
01:06:51
>> The the competitor to Good Good Morning
01:06:54
America. Um yeah, I had 9 minutes on
01:06:56
there and
01:06:57
>> which is absurd.
01:06:58
>> It's absurd. What is more absurd is that
01:07:01
they sent this um reporter out called
01:07:04
Jenna Wolf. And Jenna was lovely. And me
01:07:08
and her got on like a house on fire. And
01:07:11
the thing about the media was like this
01:07:15
wasn't about the water slide. This was
01:07:16
about my rebrand to mental fitness. I
01:07:20
wanted everyone to understand mental
01:07:22
fitness. And so
01:07:24
I would do this deal with any media that
01:07:27
contact me from around the world. I will
01:07:29
talk to you if we talk 50% about what
01:07:32
I'm doing and 50% about why I'm doing
01:07:34
it.
01:07:36
And they were all like, "Yeah, cool. If
01:07:38
there's a story behind it, that's kind
01:07:39
of even better." And so I would I would
01:07:41
talk about mental fitness and then the
01:07:43
water slide.
01:07:45
The Today Show are [ __ ] They just
01:07:49
like, "No, no, we no, we're not talking
01:07:51
about they they said we're going to do
01:07:53
it and we are not going to talk about
01:07:55
mental health at all, but we will do a
01:07:59
whole segment on the water slide." And
01:08:02
so that broke my rule, but I was like,
01:08:05
uh, okay. because it's such a big
01:08:08
opportunity.
01:08:10
Jenna came out to where we did it. So,
01:08:12
it's a long story, very short, but
01:08:14
basically a billionaire paid me to take
01:08:16
the water slide to his ski slope in New
01:08:19
Jersey where we put it down. That's
01:08:21
where Guinness came and gave us the
01:08:22
record. That's where we did the Today
01:08:24
Show stuff. And so, she came out to this
01:08:27
um ski resort a day early. And we just
01:08:30
got on like a house on fire.
01:08:32
Seven of those nine minutes we talked
01:08:34
about mental fitness. M
01:08:36
>> the truck was in her ear the entire time
01:08:41
going, "Shut up. Shut up. Get it back to
01:08:43
the slide. Get it back to the slide. Go
01:08:44
back to the slide." And she because she
01:08:47
believed in what I was doing so much,
01:08:49
she stayed with me and talked mental
01:08:51
health on prime time American
01:08:53
television.
01:08:54
>> Why were they so anti it?
01:08:56
>> Because even this is so that was like
01:08:58
>> it's not it's not a fun morning topic.
01:09:00
>> Yeah. 2015.
01:09:01
>> Yeah. Um, and even though I'm not
01:09:03
talking about depression, suicide,
01:09:05
anxiety, anything like that. I'm talking
01:09:06
about mental fitness. That's the whole
01:09:07
idea of the rebrand, right? That we want
01:09:09
to be understand like it's just like
01:09:11
fitness. That's it's all it is. It's
01:09:14
just like fitness and here are the
01:09:15
things we can do to get fitter in this
01:09:17
way. Like I'm not talking about the
01:09:19
negative, dark, deep stuff. I'm talking
01:09:21
about these are the things that make us
01:09:23
better. And they just didn't understand
01:09:25
that. Uh, but she did. And so we ended
01:09:28
up, you know, doing that in a really
01:09:30
good way.
01:09:32
Yeah, that's really powerful. Did did
01:09:34
all did all this stuff at the time um
01:09:36
like you the attention and the the
01:09:38
results that you were getting did it did
01:09:40
it bring you happiness
01:09:44
>> in the moment?
01:09:46
Um
01:09:48
>> because it's sort of external
01:09:49
validation.
01:09:50
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of
01:09:52
the really big things. And in my second
01:09:55
book, I wrote about it because it was a
01:09:58
and this is not from a bragging place.
01:10:01
Um, it's from a
01:10:04
because I don't think it's a good thing.
01:10:06
Like I think it was 2013,
01:10:09
I had a really big year, right? So I
01:10:11
wrote a bestselling book. I um opened
01:10:14
TEDex Oakland in front of two and a half
01:10:16
thousand people. Um I built the world's
01:10:20
biggest water slide. I
01:10:22
um did a national ad campaign for the
01:10:25
biggest company in the country uh where
01:10:27
I got to do all of the coolest things in
01:10:29
the country and I was a finalist for New
01:10:31
Zealand Innovator of the Year and I was
01:10:33
a for my slide design because no one had
01:10:35
ever designed a interlocking um the
01:10:38
whole big thing and I designed it myself
01:10:40
and so I got finalist for New Zealand
01:10:42
Innovator of the Year and then I was a
01:10:43
finalist for New Zealander of the year
01:10:45
as well
01:10:46
>> and
01:10:46
>> it was it was pe Jimmy Hunter you're on
01:10:48
fire. That was peak. And at the end of
01:10:51
2013, I was real sad.
01:10:54
And I was real sad because the book
01:10:57
didn't sell enough copies. The TED talk
01:11:00
didn't um get enough views. The water
01:11:02
slide didn't raise enough money or
01:11:04
awareness. Um that product I fronted
01:11:07
sucked and died. And I did not win
01:11:10
either of those two big awards.
01:11:12
>> Is it like what we were talking about at
01:11:13
the beginning? How nothing's nothing's
01:11:14
good enough?
01:11:15
>> Nothing was that none of that stuff was
01:11:17
good enough. And that was when I
01:11:19
realized that I had done enough to get
01:11:23
from severe discomfort to discomfort,
01:11:26
but I had stopped there.
01:11:29
>> Like I hadn't gone any further. Like
01:11:32
it's like I still have a problem. It's
01:11:34
not the same problem that I had before.
01:11:37
>> Um but it's still a like if you can do
01:11:39
all of those things and not and not be
01:11:41
happy, then it's the same as people who
01:11:44
um you know win the lotto. Um, if you
01:11:48
win lotto, no matter how much it is,
01:11:50
your uh pre-la happiness levels return
01:11:56
to sorry, your happiness levels return
01:11:59
to pre-la happiness levels within six
01:12:04
weeks.
01:12:05
>> How are you?
01:12:05
>> How are you, JJ? What brings you in
01:12:07
here?
01:12:07
>> Hold that thought. I need your car keys
01:12:09
urgently.
01:12:11
>> So sorry. Landon wants to get his boat
01:12:13
out.
01:12:13
>> Oh, it's all right.
01:12:15
>> Thank you. I'm so sorry. Continue.
01:12:17
>> No worries. As you
01:12:18
>> start that piece again.
01:12:19
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. You fill your water up.
01:12:22
How's your How's your temperature?
01:12:23
>> Yeah, I'm all good. I'm going to eat
01:12:25
whatever you
01:12:26
>> um Oh, yeah. Lotto winners.
01:12:28
>> Yeah. So, it's it's the same as lotto
01:12:31
winners, right? So, they've done many,
01:12:33
many, many studies on lotto winners. And
01:12:35
your happiness levels post winning the
01:12:38
lotto will return to pre-loadto winning
01:12:41
levels within about 6 weeks to about 3
01:12:45
months.
01:12:47
That's how long winning the lotto makes
01:12:49
you happy, right? And so you may uh you
01:12:54
you'll just be unhappy with a better
01:12:55
quality of life,
01:12:57
>> right? So you're you're unhappy, but now
01:13:00
you got a boat,
01:13:02
>> right?
01:13:03
>> What is it? There's like a like a
01:13:04
dopamine or serotonin thing. Like it
01:13:06
gives you a quick quick rush.
01:13:07
>> Well, it's just it's like wherever you
01:13:10
go, there you are,
01:13:13
>> right?
01:13:13
>> Yeah. Confucious.
01:13:15
>> Yeah. Like you what the problems you had
01:13:18
before winning lotto are probably only
01:13:20
going to be exacerbated after winning
01:13:22
lotto,
01:13:23
>> right?
01:13:24
>> No matter what you do. like the problems
01:13:27
I had at the end of 2012 were the same
01:13:30
problems I had at the end of 2013 even
01:13:32
though I'd just done all of those things
01:13:34
>> right they those doing those things
01:13:37
solves nothing
01:13:39
>> solves nothing and so that was when I
01:13:42
realized oh I really have to do some
01:13:45
work
01:13:46
>> within
01:13:47
>> more work going going inwards
01:13:51
>> yeah I was I was pretty much the same
01:13:53
like I accumulated as many material
01:13:56
possessions as what I could. And it's
01:13:58
only when you when you reach the top of
01:14:00
that mountain, you realize, oh, it's not
01:14:01
what I thought it was going to be.
01:14:03
>> Um, yeah. And that's quite alarming when
01:14:05
when you accumulate all the things that
01:14:07
you think are going to make you happy
01:14:08
and it doesn't work.
01:14:09
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, when you look at
01:14:11
like uh Robin Williams or Kate Spade or
01:14:14
any like these these are people at the
01:14:15
top of the game who killed themselves.
01:14:16
Yeah.
01:14:17
>> And you know, Jim Kerry said, "I wish
01:14:20
everyone could be a multi-millionaire so
01:14:23
that they realize it's the answer to
01:14:24
nothing." H
01:14:28
yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:30
Money can't buy you happiness. I I think
01:14:31
think there's like a base level, but the
01:14:33
base level is a lot lower than what
01:14:34
people think.
01:14:34
>> Yeah. So, the base level was um about
01:14:36
2015 Harvard came up with the idea that
01:14:39
$75,000
01:14:41
per year. So, let's say that's h 100red
01:14:43
grand US per year now. Um is uh the
01:14:48
level that um is peak happiness. So
01:14:51
every dollar that you earn up to
01:14:53
$100,000 US a year um makes you happier
01:14:57
because it improves the quality of your
01:14:59
life and then every dollar over that
01:15:02
well there's a there's a level that sort
01:15:04
of plateaus out for quite a while but
01:15:06
then lots of money can actually bring it
01:15:09
down because suddenly like the stress is
01:15:11
so much more um gold diggers or people
01:15:15
trying to take your money you know
01:15:16
become so much more of a thing and you
01:15:18
know as Biggie said more money, more
01:15:22
problems, right? And so, yeah, that that
01:15:25
was a Harvard happiness study that
01:15:27
showed that.
01:15:27
>> Yeah. So, um why why TA? Why did you do
01:15:31
that walk?
01:15:32
>> Um the Tiata trail, which is the length
01:15:35
of length of New Zealand
01:15:36
>> that um
01:15:38
Yeah. And that didn't get sort of much
01:15:40
mainstream media attention. Did you sort
01:15:42
of press release it? Is it just that the
01:15:44
media's sort of changed?
01:15:45
>> I can tell. No, no, no. I can tell you
01:15:47
exactly why. Was that something you did
01:15:49
more for you than
01:15:50
>> Yeah. So,
01:15:52
um I was meditating on a beach in Mexico
01:15:55
and the voices in my head said, "You
01:15:57
need to go walk the length of New
01:15:58
Zealand." And I said, "I can't afford
01:16:00
that.
01:16:02
You know, it takes it takes 3 months and
01:16:04
costs a bunch of money." And they said,
01:16:06
"Yes, you can." And then um
01:16:10
uh about two weeks later I got a job for
01:16:15
30 grand and they went there you go. And
01:16:19
so I was like all right and then so
01:16:21
about 3 months later I just started
01:16:23
walking and
01:16:27
basically uh to answer your question
01:16:29
about like yes it was for me there were
01:16:31
lots of things that I needed to learn.
01:16:33
Uh, one of the one of the more
01:16:35
interesting things is that because I
01:16:38
went very fast. U, I'm just a fast
01:16:40
walker. I have a hiking group in Mexico
01:16:42
where we hike in the jungle three times
01:16:44
a week. So, I'm fit, I'm fast, and I
01:16:48
basically
01:16:51
would scare the hell out of walkers.
01:16:55
>> Why? With your briskness.
01:16:57
>> You wonder why, right? So, we're walking
01:16:59
in the middle of nowhere.
01:17:02
I'm coming up behind them. I'm like,
01:17:04
"Hi." Coming. Passing. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.
01:17:13
95%
01:17:14
of people walking on the TA by
01:17:17
themselves are wearing headphones.
01:17:21
>> Disconnected
01:17:23
from everything around them, but most
01:17:26
importantly, disconnected from
01:17:28
themselves. They're literally
01:17:29
distracting their brain from being alone
01:17:32
with itself.
01:17:33
>> I had 91 days I did without headphones,
01:17:36
without any stimulus
01:17:38
>> where I just was with myself.
01:17:43
And it's a really interesting thing and
01:17:44
it's basically just a very very long
01:17:46
walking meditation
01:17:48
where you observe your thoughts and the
01:17:52
question is how long do you have to
01:17:54
observe them before they dissipate until
01:17:58
there's nothing left to think?
01:17:59
>> How long was 90 days enough?
01:18:02
>> Not really.
01:18:04
>> But there were definitely patches in
01:18:06
there where it got very quiet. Um, but
01:18:10
what's interesting is when you observe
01:18:13
the initial thoughts for long enough,
01:18:16
they're usually the inane [ __ ]
01:18:19
And when you've let that inane [ __ ]
01:18:21
just dissipate over time, then the
01:18:24
quality of your thoughts starts getting
01:18:26
better. And so over that period of time,
01:18:28
I learned a lot about myself. And it was
01:18:31
a really interesting way. And so my the
01:18:35
public part of of my walk which was
01:18:38
interesting I was uh my my theme was
01:18:41
connection. Connection with the self
01:18:44
connection with the land and connection
01:18:46
with each other. I have a keynote talk
01:18:49
um that I give is called connection is
01:18:52
the cure. The cure to what? Cure to
01:18:54
pretty much everything. If we can
01:18:55
connect with ourselves, the land and
01:18:57
others it solves pretty much all of our
01:18:58
problems.
01:19:00
And so by walking by myself without
01:19:03
headphones, I was able to connect with
01:19:05
myself,
01:19:08
by being on the TA, literally one of the
01:19:10
most beautiful trails in the entire
01:19:12
world, I was able to connect with
01:19:14
>> this beautiful country in a way that I
01:19:17
had never been able to cuz you go places
01:19:19
where you cannot drive, right?
01:19:23
>> And then connect with others is one of
01:19:26
the core components to us living happy
01:19:28
and healthy lives. And I got to do that
01:19:29
each night wherever I was staying.
01:19:32
And so I had this sort of call to action
01:19:35
around connection and getting people to
01:19:37
connect in these ways. And why wasn't it
01:19:42
as successful as all the other things I
01:19:44
did? Like we So the water slide had two
01:19:47
documentaries about it. Um the first one
01:19:50
on the Travel Channel had 20 million
01:19:53
views in the first month I think it was.
01:19:56
Um, we generated tens of millions of
01:19:59
dollars in media coverage. Like it was a
01:20:01
whole whole big thing. Lilo was very
01:20:03
successful in New Zealand. This was
01:20:05
nothing. And I knew this was going to be
01:20:06
nothing. And you know why it was
01:20:08
nothing? Cuz it's not remarkable.
01:20:12
This is one of my favorite lessons.
01:20:16
And it's not a mental health lesson.
01:20:17
It's um a business lesson. It's about
01:20:21
marketing. It's from Seth Goden who is
01:20:23
like the king.
01:20:24
>> Oh, you've got one of his books, Purple
01:20:25
Cow. Yep. He's the king of marketing.
01:20:29
And he says if you want something to be
01:20:31
successful, it has to be remarkable.
01:20:37
And to take that to the core of the
01:20:40
word, it is to remark about.
01:20:44
And so if I asked you like we we had a
01:20:48
chat um before this podcast
01:20:52
and if I said to you when was the last
01:20:53
time you went out for dinner,
01:20:57
>> you know. When was the last time we went
01:20:58
out for dinner?
01:20:59
>> Oh, last weekend.
01:20:59
>> Yeah. Yep. Was it good?
01:21:01
>> Yeah, it was nice.
01:21:02
>> Yeah. Was it remarkable?
01:21:04
>> No.
01:21:05
>> No. You haven't been going around
01:21:06
telling me about it. You haven't told
01:21:08
anyone else about it. Right. So, it's
01:21:09
just good.
01:21:10
>> Yeah.
01:21:10
>> Right.
01:21:11
>> So, it's it can't be good. It can't be
01:21:13
great. It has to be remarkable, right?
01:21:16
People have to actually talk about it.
01:21:18
>> And because my background is in
01:21:20
branding,
01:21:22
if I had swam the Wetto River, that
01:21:26
would have been a more impressive
01:21:27
physical feat. I swam I swam it floating
01:21:31
on a lio, right? There were some guys
01:21:34
the couple of weeks before me that um uh
01:21:37
jet skied the whole length of the wake
01:21:39
at a river and they got no attention.
01:21:42
swimming it would have got less
01:21:43
attention than lieloing it. I did it
01:21:45
dressed in a captain's hat, a dress
01:21:47
shirt with a bow tie.
01:21:51
And it was a [ __ ] lio.
01:21:53
It's remarkable. People, have you heard
01:21:55
about that dude that's that's liloing?
01:21:58
It's ridiculous.
01:22:00
The world's biggest water slide is
01:22:02
remarkable. You want to talk about that?
01:22:06
Walking the length of New Zealand is not
01:22:07
remarkable
01:22:09
because thousands of people have done it
01:22:11
and they even made a trail for thousands
01:22:13
more to do it.
01:22:16
>> Right. There's a map you can follow.
01:22:17
>> So did you do it more for for yourself?
01:22:19
>> This was far. This was far more for me.
01:22:22
Right.
01:22:22
>> And so
01:22:24
>> the other ones were for a really good
01:22:26
reason and cause
01:22:28
>> but I've moved away from the need of
01:22:30
validation to do big cool things for me.
01:22:34
Um,
01:22:36
so now I just do them for myself
01:22:38
>> and the TA was for myself, but it
01:22:42
actually did have some really good
01:22:46
positive net outcome through social
01:22:47
media and and and people that follow me
01:22:50
and all that sort of stuff. So really
01:22:51
engaged in a lovely way.
01:22:53
>> Yeah.
01:22:54
>> And the cool thing was I had a tracker
01:22:55
on me. I think something like 200 people
01:23:00
came and found me on trail and came and
01:23:03
walked bits with me.
01:23:05
>> That's well that's a community that
01:23:07
you've built over over many many years.
01:23:09
Yeah. And also um I mean yeah like like
01:23:12
it's not remarkable remarkable but still
01:23:14
you know you get a hund a thousand
01:23:15
people in a room and maybe one of them
01:23:17
will do it like the percentage of people
01:23:19
that are going to walk the length in New
01:23:20
Zealand.
01:23:20
>> But but where would you asking
01:23:22
specifically about the media landscape
01:23:25
and so it is not remarkable to the media
01:23:27
landscape
01:23:28
>> right there's nothing particularly
01:23:31
newsworthy about another person walking
01:23:34
the length of news.
01:23:34
>> Yeah. Or quirky.
01:23:35
>> Yeah. Exactly. Do do you want to do
01:23:39
um another remarkable thing or have you
01:23:41
sort of passed that chapter?
01:23:43
>> Uh I still want to do remarkable things.
01:23:45
So whatever I do, I want it to be
01:23:47
remarkable but remarkable for myself.
01:23:50
So I trade in stories.
01:23:53
>> All right. So you know my actual job uh
01:23:56
if anyone needs me, I'm a keynote
01:23:58
speaker that does um you know
01:24:00
conferences, events, corporates, all
01:24:02
that sort of stuff. And I trade in
01:24:03
stories. That's my that's my bread and
01:24:05
butter. But what I do is I use those
01:24:07
stories, metaphors and analogies to
01:24:09
translate highle neuroscience, esoteric,
01:24:14
psychology, positive psych, whatever. I
01:24:17
use those stories to translate them. And
01:24:19
so having new stories, they're
01:24:22
remarkable stories that I get to hide
01:24:25
learning information inside.
01:24:27
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're a hell of a
01:24:29
wrecker.
01:24:31
>> Yeah. Out and about doing a great
01:24:32
storyteller. Oh, you from from the walk,
01:24:34
what were the like what were the big
01:24:35
lessons? What were the key lessons or
01:24:36
things you learned about yourself?
01:24:39
>> Um
01:24:39
>> I feel like you you're probably one of
01:24:40
the most introspective people I've ever
01:24:42
met anyway.
01:24:43
>> Yeah, I it's true. Like I spend a lot of
01:24:46
time thinking. Yeah. Yeah. And and that
01:24:50
is obviously one that that that drives
01:24:52
that drives a lot of in introspection.
01:24:56
>> Um I don't quite know the answer to that
01:24:57
thing, but I'm going to tell you a story
01:24:59
from day five of the walk. The first uh
01:25:04
day six, the first four days are [ __ ]
01:25:07
>> Is that 90 mile beach?
01:25:09
>> 90 mile beach.
01:25:11
>> Just just gray sand everywhere.
01:25:13
>> The se it's sand dunes and ocean and it
01:25:17
just extends as far as the eye can see
01:25:19
and it's demoralizing. It's a hard way
01:25:21
to start. Um then you walk um up into
01:25:26
Kitea and then um the next day is out
01:25:31
into the I can't remember the name of
01:25:33
the rangers there. And I walked out and
01:25:37
this was two years ago when we had all
01:25:39
of those cyclones that just messed up
01:25:41
the country. And I walked through three
01:25:44
cyclones in the North Island on this. It
01:25:45
rained on me 95% of my days in the North
01:25:48
Island. That was demoralizing to pretty
01:25:51
much everyone around me and was a really
01:25:53
good lesson for me to be able to go, I'm
01:25:56
actually okay. I'm dealing with this
01:25:58
much better than everyone around me. And
01:26:00
I think that's a testament to the work
01:26:01
that I'd done.
01:26:03
But I got turned around by these hikers
01:26:07
coming back the other way and the
01:26:10
um the trail was flooded. Like what was
01:26:12
supposed to be a little stream was a 2
01:26:14
meter deep like raging torrent. No
01:26:17
passing. um doc that was um trail A
01:26:22
couldn't get trail B had already been
01:26:25
closed by doc and the state highway
01:26:28
between Kite and South had been closed.
01:26:31
There was literally no way through and
01:26:34
so we had to figure out what we wanted
01:26:35
to do and like you wanted to walk but
01:26:38
like um TA and Doc were saying everyone
01:26:41
should um go around to Kerry Kerry and
01:26:44
just skip that whole section about 45ks.
01:26:47
A lot of people didn't want to do it and
01:26:48
I was like, I got places to be. I'll
01:26:49
skip that 45k section.
01:26:52
And because I'm cheap, I decided to
01:26:54
hitchhike and Northland's great place
01:26:55
for hitchhiking. And so I go out and I
01:26:58
start hitchhiking. And um no one's
01:27:01
picking me up. I always get picked up
01:27:02
real quick. And I just hear these voices
01:27:04
in my head say, "Go to the bakery." And
01:27:07
I've come back from Mexico. I could
01:27:08
always go a pie. Um but like I was like,
01:27:12
"I don't see any bakeries." And but this
01:27:14
voice in my head just kept saying, "Go
01:27:15
to the bakery." And then I looked and
01:27:16
like down the highway there was like a
01:27:18
sandwich board. I thought maybe that
01:27:19
actually looks like a bakery. I walk
01:27:21
down to the bakery and um I take one
01:27:25
step in and this big marry guy goes,
01:27:27
"Oi, what's that?" I was like, "Um,
01:27:29
that's my GPS tracker." Oh. He starts
01:27:32
asking me all these questions about
01:27:33
that. He go, "Oh, we need some of
01:27:34
those." I was like, "Oh, cool." He said,
01:27:36
"What are you doing?" I told him what I
01:27:37
was doing. He said, "Cool. Um,
01:27:40
then you're coming with us." I was like,
01:27:43
"All right." And so I took a step back
01:27:45
out of the bakery with him and his mate,
01:27:47
got in the car and they were going to
01:27:48
Kerry Kerry.
01:27:50
>> And so we're chatting about mental
01:27:51
health, mental fitness, um the
01:27:53
difference between the way the western
01:27:55
world looks at it and the indigenous way
01:27:57
looks at it. And then we start talking
01:27:59
about language and how um indigenous
01:28:02
language is a language of the heart and
01:28:04
western language quite often language of
01:28:07
the head. And he said, I'll give you an
01:28:09
example. He's like arro. He's like, "You
01:28:13
think it means love?"
01:28:15
>> I was like, "Well, yeah, I do. Isn't
01:28:18
it?" Well, if you know five words in
01:28:20
Maldi, you know, ara is kind of one of
01:28:23
them, right? Um, and he's like, "Yeah,
01:28:25
but it's not it's not not quite right."
01:28:28
I was like, "Oh, yeah." And he said,
01:28:31
"The root of Aroha, you have arro and ha
01:28:38
means to pay attention to something.
01:28:43
Ha is the breath of life.
01:28:47
So aroha means to pay attention to
01:28:51
somebody's utmost being.
01:28:55
And aroha for the self is to pay
01:28:57
attention to your utmost being. And he
01:29:01
said so aroha isn't just love.
01:29:07
>> It's connection.
01:29:09
It's being seen.
01:29:11
And I was like,
01:29:13
"Okay, I'm just wiping this little tear
01:29:15
down in the back in the back of the
01:29:17
car."
01:29:17
>> You were Did it make you emotional?
01:29:18
>> M made me emotional. Gave me a little
01:29:20
tear.
01:29:22
>> And I just understood
01:29:24
>> that like,
01:29:27
>> yeah, we want to be loved,
01:29:31
but we really want to connect with
01:29:33
people,
01:29:35
>> but we really just want to be seen.
01:29:40
And that changed the way I looked at so
01:29:42
much from there.
01:29:44
>> [ __ ] that's powerful. E, if you open
01:29:46
yourself up to these things, then you
01:29:48
just you do just end up meeting these
01:29:50
sorts of people and having these sorts
01:29:51
of conversations
01:29:52
>> every day.
01:29:53
>> Yeah.
01:29:56
>> Yeah.
01:29:57
Where do you think things are at now
01:29:58
with um like mental health? Like is
01:30:00
there
01:30:02
Yeah. Mental Yeah, actually the whole
01:30:04
mental health you can say mental health
01:30:06
for that. Yeah. Yeah. like do do you
01:30:08
think um like it's better or worse than
01:30:10
when you started on this journey?
01:30:13
>> Um
01:30:15
well, it's demonstrabably better.
01:30:19
>> Like, uh the fact that there are so many
01:30:22
more resources, there's so many more
01:30:24
people telling their stories and talking
01:30:25
about it. Um you know, going back that
01:30:28
15 odd years ago, like to now, it has
01:30:31
changed. I used to get asked to come and
01:30:33
speak at companies and they would
01:30:35
literally bring me in the back door and
01:30:37
say, "Don't tell anyone you came here to
01:30:38
talk to our people cuz people will think
01:30:40
that, you know, we've got a problem."
01:30:42
>> Right? Now, when I go in, they take my
01:30:44
picture and post it everywhere.
01:30:46
>> You know, that's the corporate
01:30:47
difference. It's massive. So, that's
01:30:50
that's amazing.
01:30:53
And
01:30:55
there's a point in many sort of
01:30:58
different um
01:31:01
problems in our society where you get to
01:31:06
a point of awareness saturation.
01:31:09
Like we're all aware.
01:31:12
Like there's not a person you can talk
01:31:14
to who doesn't know what depression is
01:31:15
and know kind of how it works, right?
01:31:17
We're all vastly aware of depression.
01:31:21
And so the awareness piece, while it
01:31:23
still needs to keep going blah blah
01:31:25
blah, we're really needing the landscape
01:31:29
to transition to the action piece
01:31:33
>> of actually getting people to do stuff
01:31:37
differently.
01:31:39
And so like whether it is learning to
01:31:43
observe your thoughts, whether it is
01:31:44
learning to regulate your nervous
01:31:46
system, whether it's learning how to
01:31:48
connect better, learning how to be
01:31:50
vulnerable with people, learning any of
01:31:52
these skills, the facilitation of this
01:31:56
needs to be put to the forefront.
01:31:58
>> We need to change the way that people
01:32:01
are actually doing things. We we need to
01:32:04
like in the corporate example, oh, you
01:32:07
know, now we can talk about it more.
01:32:09
Cool. Now, let's set up our workplaces
01:32:11
differently so we're not burning
01:32:12
everyone out. Massie University uh last
01:32:15
year there like 78% of the workforce is
01:32:19
currently at extreme risk of burnout.
01:32:23
>> Like what the [ __ ]
01:32:25
Like that doesn't mean you're weak that
01:32:28
you can't hack it. That means that the
01:32:31
system is set up
01:32:33
to ruin people.
01:32:35
>> And until we start actually changing
01:32:37
these systems, whether they're in our
01:32:39
households, in our schools, or in our
01:32:42
businesses, we will continue to have the
01:32:44
same results.
01:32:45
>> And so the call now is action, is
01:32:48
change, is actually doing these things
01:32:51
to make it better for people.
01:32:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. You've got a really good
01:32:55
point. Like it's um there is so much
01:32:57
awareness, but the um the the suicide
01:32:59
rates haven't changed. They stay the
01:33:01
same. They go up, they go down a little
01:33:02
bit, but they're always up around that
01:33:04
sort of 600 mark, eh?
01:33:05
>> Yep. Haven't changed.
01:33:06
>> What What are your What are your
01:33:08
thoughts or views on um like suicide
01:33:09
reporting in New Zealand?
01:33:11
>> You know, it's always
01:33:12
>> it's an interesting one. There are like
01:33:15
with so many things. There are studies
01:33:16
that show that um suicide can be like a
01:33:20
contagion. So that if you speak about
01:33:22
it, other people can take their lives.
01:33:23
There are studies that will show that uh
01:33:26
reporting it reduces um and you know uh
01:33:30
because people uh are more aware of it
01:33:33
>> and so if I was actually in legislation
01:33:37
I wouldn't know which side to take but
01:33:39
because I don't have to report to the
01:33:41
government I'm like we need to talk
01:33:43
about it more
01:33:44
>> like I mean suicide
01:33:47
as I said right at the start is like the
01:33:50
very pointy end of the stick and The
01:33:53
reality is that if we can change our
01:33:56
systems,
01:33:57
then the suicide rate goes down,
01:34:01
right? You don't It's why like um drug
01:34:04
rehab, drug rehabilitation barely works
01:34:08
because you send them into this
01:34:09
particular place where they uh have all
01:34:13
the support they want. They have all of
01:34:15
the um all of the knowledge, all of the
01:34:17
things, and they're like, I'm clean. and
01:34:19
then they go back out and they're still
01:34:21
living with the same drug addicts and
01:34:23
same friends. And guess what? You're
01:34:24
going to end up back in that, right?
01:34:26
>> So until we change the actual
01:34:28
situational system of these people,
01:34:32
>> the rate's not going to change.
01:34:34
>> And so like
01:34:37
if you really wanted to fix it,
01:34:40
universal basic income,
01:34:43
there's no government brave enough to do
01:34:44
it in the world yet. There are there's a
01:34:48
state in Canada that trial it in a in a
01:34:51
town for a while. Um you know basically
01:34:53
giving everybody I don't what the
01:34:56
numbers will be different now in let's
01:34:57
say you get $500 a week right there's um
01:35:04
uh there's all sorts of ways to pay for
01:35:05
it. People will argue this. There's um
01:35:09
there's if you look up uniboo basic
01:35:11
income, there's there's good structures
01:35:12
for it.
01:35:13
>> But basically cost of living
01:35:16
and the um the 80hour work week for
01:35:19
these people working three jobs like so
01:35:22
much of that contributes to people
01:35:25
taking their own lives
01:35:26
>> when it's like everything is just too
01:35:28
hard. There's no way out. You can't see
01:35:30
anything. You end up taking your life.
01:35:32
Systems need to change before the
01:35:33
suicide rate changes.
01:35:35
>> Yeah. Do do you think there's still
01:35:36
stigma around talking about depression
01:35:38
or having therapy and stuff?
01:35:40
>> Of course there is.
01:35:41
>> You think so?
01:35:41
>> Yeah, 100%. Um, and like it depends like
01:35:45
what you're in. Like I was talking to
01:35:50
uh uh what were they? Uh law firm the
01:35:53
other day.
01:35:56
or talking to people inside the law firm
01:35:59
about the law firm like you will get
01:36:05
told that you're soft, you'll get
01:36:06
demoted, you won't get promoted. Like
01:36:09
that's that's it's it's rough. Um,
01:36:13
even even down to the fact that like on
01:36:17
social media, there's a really sort of
01:36:21
interesting narrative between men and
01:36:23
women, the masculine, the feminine, and
01:36:26
um, and dating and all of that sort of
01:36:28
stuff about men being vulnerable and
01:36:31
women saying that they want it, but when
01:36:33
men do it, then the woman use it against
01:36:35
them, you know? So, so, so like you know
01:36:40
there's guys saying like
01:36:42
>> the the one time that you open up as a
01:36:44
man to a woman, if she ever uses that
01:36:45
against you, that's like that's the end
01:36:48
of it. He'll never open up ever again.
01:36:51
>> And so, like, we've still got these
01:36:54
situations where it can be problematic
01:36:57
for people to talk about this stuff
01:36:59
because they might lose friends or jobs
01:37:01
or relationships or anything like that.
01:37:04
And so there's there is still work to do
01:37:06
around compassion and empathy for people
01:37:08
who aren't doing it, who aren't, you
01:37:10
know, who are going through things like
01:37:11
that.
01:37:12
>> Yeah, that's that's a good point. Yeah,
01:37:14
I lost a mate about 5 years ago through
01:37:16
um he took his own life um uh because he
01:37:19
he suffered severe bipolar, but I had no
01:37:22
[ __ ] idea. No one did. His wife knew
01:37:24
his immediate family, but no one else
01:37:25
because he he was scared he was going to
01:37:26
be um you judged at work.
01:37:28
>> Do you know how much effort it is to
01:37:29
hide bipolar? Yeah,
01:37:32
>> you imagine like how much internal
01:37:35
effort is required to hide that from the
01:37:37
world.
01:37:38
>> It is so so hard. And I don't have
01:37:41
bipolar, but I have a friend with
01:37:43
bipolar and he came on my podcast the
01:37:45
other day, literally about 4 days ago.
01:37:47
And you know, like the the his his big
01:37:51
thing that he was talking about was
01:37:52
don't fight the feelings. M
01:37:54
>> and so with as someone with bipolar was
01:37:56
talking about as soon as he learned to
01:37:59
to stop trying to hide it and put it all
01:38:01
down and actually just feel the feelings
01:38:04
and then find good ways to to move
01:38:06
through them, that's when his life got
01:38:08
good.
01:38:08
>> Yeah. If you could change um like just
01:38:11
one thing about how you know mental
01:38:14
health is approached in New Zealand,
01:38:15
what would it be?
01:38:19
I mean go go goes back to it goes back
01:38:22
to what I asked before like like mental
01:38:25
health is the
01:38:28
symptom and not the problem.
01:38:30
>> And so like if I could change one thing
01:38:33
to improve the mental health, it would
01:38:34
be legislation.
01:38:36
>> It it it would be um it would be things
01:38:39
like anything that legislates towards
01:38:41
better cost of living, um better ability
01:38:43
to just live. Like you think about
01:38:46
people like, "Oh, back in my day, we
01:38:48
didn't have any of this [ __ ] No
01:38:50
depression. No one was killing
01:38:51
themselves." It's like, "Yeah, back in
01:38:53
your day a house cost five grand and you
01:38:55
only had to work one job and your wife
01:38:57
got to stay home and look after the
01:38:59
kids."
01:39:00
>> Like genuinely the economics now are
01:39:04
horrific for trying to live a quote
01:39:08
unquote normal life. And so until we can
01:39:11
legislate that in some way and give
01:39:14
incentives to moving a society to be
01:39:17
more equitable, to be more um like just
01:39:25
move it just to be more care based,
01:39:29
>> like to actually look at people and not
01:39:33
say they're bad because of this, they're
01:39:35
bad because of this, but like actually
01:39:37
come together and connect in a
01:39:40
that
01:39:41
improves our GDP like like I'm not I'm
01:39:44
not some bleeding heart liberal like
01:39:47
like a a economy is better when people
01:39:52
are functioning better
01:39:53
>> like when I said 78% of people on the
01:39:55
verge of burnout what do you think their
01:39:57
productivity is we have one of the
01:39:59
lowest productivity rates in the OECD
01:40:03
>> you know who has one of the highest
01:40:04
productivity rates France
01:40:07
you know what people say about France
01:40:08
lazy [ __ ] is
01:40:11
>> right. Always don't start late, finish
01:40:14
early. They're at the cafes, they're
01:40:16
smoking, they're drinking. What the [ __ ]
01:40:18
are they doing?
01:40:19
>> You go look at their productivity score
01:40:21
in the OECD, it's pretty much the
01:40:23
highest. So when they go to work, they
01:40:25
actually work and they get stuff done
01:40:27
and then they then they piss around
01:40:29
whenever the rest of the time
01:40:32
>> and have a better better way of life.
01:40:34
>> Yeah, they seem to have the right way
01:40:36
around. the French. They they definitely
01:40:37
um like work to live.
01:40:39
>> Yeah.
01:40:39
>> Yeah.
01:40:39
>> Yeah.
01:40:40
>> Um what about you? What are your like um
01:40:43
not non-negotiables in your in your
01:40:45
toolkit? I know you're a huge advocate
01:40:48
for me um meditation.
01:40:49
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm a huge advocate
01:40:53
for the ability to observe your thoughts
01:40:56
without judgment. And so meditation is
01:41:00
the main way that you can learn that
01:41:02
skill. There are obviously many
01:41:03
mindfulness practices as well that you
01:41:06
can you can do for that. Um that
01:41:10
the interesting thing about meditation
01:41:12
is that it does not solve any of your
01:41:14
problems.
01:41:15
>> Solves nothing.
01:41:17
>> What it does is allows you to view them
01:41:20
from a different perspective, understand
01:41:22
them and gain insights that allow you to
01:41:25
make better choices.
01:41:28
My second cornerstone is the ability to
01:41:29
regulate your nervous system.
01:41:32
Pretty much most people like those 78%
01:41:36
of people that are burning out have
01:41:37
disregulated nervous systems.
01:41:40
Um we live in our
01:41:44
sympathetic nervous system far too much
01:41:46
um in what modern science has called
01:41:48
low-level sympathetic nervous system
01:41:49
state. So sympathetic nervous system
01:41:51
what people usually refer to as fight or
01:41:54
flight.
01:41:54
>> Yeah. And lowlevel sympathetic nervous
01:41:57
system state means that um people aren't
01:42:00
in that. You know, you usually
01:42:02
understand when you're in fight or
01:42:03
flight, right? But if you're in low
01:42:05
level, you might not actually be able to
01:42:07
viscerally see and understand that
01:42:09
you're in fight or flight, but you're
01:42:11
still dumping the three main chemicals
01:42:13
that you dump when you're in that state,
01:42:15
which is adrenaline, cortisol, and
01:42:18
glucose. And these are leading like when
01:42:20
you dump them for long periods of time,
01:42:21
it leads to heart disease,
01:42:23
cardiovascular disease, um everything
01:42:25
through to uh like diabetes, like all of
01:42:28
these things come because we're dumping
01:42:29
glucose and and all of that sort of
01:42:31
stuff. And if we stay in that state for
01:42:33
too long, then we have problems. Main
01:42:36
way to get yourself uh out of
01:42:40
sympathetic and parasympathetic is
01:42:42
learning how to breathe properly.
01:42:44
I take my mouth every night, so I get at
01:42:47
least eight hours of um nasal breathing.
01:42:51
When I walked the TA, I would guess that
01:42:54
I spent 98% of that walk, no matter how
01:42:57
hard I was going, with my mouth closed.
01:43:00
Nasal breathing. If you want to know any
01:43:02
of this stuff, read um Breath by James
01:43:05
Nester. It's the best book on this um
01:43:07
easily. Um
01:43:08
>> also, mutual friend of ours, Nigel
01:43:09
Beach. It's worth following him on
01:43:11
Instagram.
01:43:11
>> Yeah, go follow Nigel. Um, everyone
01:43:13
loves Nigel.
01:43:15
>> Nigel, lots of mates.
01:43:16
>> Nigel, lots of mates. Um, one of my best
01:43:19
friends and one of the loveliest humans
01:43:21
and um, someone I've also learned a lot
01:43:24
of. We we learn a lot off off each
01:43:26
other, which is which is great. Um, and
01:43:28
so, and we talked about it earlier,
01:43:31
which is something that's Nigel's
01:43:33
specialty is is hot and cold therapy.
01:43:36
So, sauna and cold exposure. And the
01:43:39
cold exposure being a a really really
01:43:42
core component because
01:43:46
cold puts you into sympathetic nervous
01:43:49
system state in the safest way possible.
01:43:53
I've thought about other ways and I've
01:43:55
tried like if I want to get you into a
01:43:57
fight or flight right now, I've pretty
01:43:59
much got to jump over this desk and try
01:44:00
and attack you, right? That's really the
01:44:02
only way I'm going to get you into that
01:44:04
state,
01:44:05
>> right?
01:44:07
not hugely useful, not a safe way to do
01:44:10
it, right? Whereas if we have a if we
01:44:12
have a ice bath in here and we put you
01:44:15
in there, you go
01:44:18
and that's putting you into the
01:44:19
sympathetic nervous system state, right?
01:44:21
So we can do it in a safe way. Then
01:44:25
you can practice through the breath
01:44:27
through using the simplest form is shut
01:44:29
your mouth so you're only nasal
01:44:31
breathing. uh best form is using the
01:44:34
physiological sigh which is a long
01:44:36
inhale through your nose and then jam as
01:44:38
much extra air up your nose as you can
01:44:40
and then a long exhale through your
01:44:42
mouth. So
01:44:50
once twice three times fastest way to
01:44:52
move you into the parasympathetic state.
01:44:54
But what it does is it teaches you
01:44:57
through the safety of cold that you
01:45:02
increase the threshold of you ever going
01:45:04
into that fight or flight state. It
01:45:06
makes you more unfuckwithable.
01:45:09
>> It makes it harder for you to end up if
01:45:11
someone cuts you off in traffic, if
01:45:13
someone says something dumb to you, if
01:45:14
there's a little bit of stress at work.
01:45:17
Suddenly, because you know how to
01:45:19
regulate your nervous system
01:45:20
consciously,
01:45:22
one, you've increased the threshold with
01:45:23
the cold exposure, but two, even if you
01:45:26
do start feeling yourself in that state,
01:45:29
you can get yourself out. I was sitting
01:45:32
on the beach in Mexico. I have this sign
01:45:35
that I have um I've done it for the last
01:45:37
10 years and it says um chat with me,
01:45:40
free advice, conversation, and
01:45:41
listening. And I go sit all around the
01:45:43
world in places and just sit and talk to
01:45:45
people. And I'm sitting there. I'm
01:45:47
reading my book. I've got no one to talk
01:45:48
to at the moment. And this surfer goes
01:45:51
past me and he looks and he goes, "No
01:45:54
one wants to [ __ ] talk to you."
01:45:57
And I was like,
01:45:59
>> and you know, when someone says
01:46:01
something like that, you go move
01:46:02
straight into that sympathetic nervous
01:46:05
system. And just even that one inhale
01:46:08
where I felt all of that adrenaline
01:46:10
start coming out. I was aware enough to
01:46:13
understand that state and go
01:46:17
and just started taking a couple of
01:46:19
nasal breaths and he just kept walking
01:46:21
and I looked over at him and I thought I
01:46:24
observed my thoughts. Right. My first
01:46:25
thought is [ __ ] you. What a [ __ ]
01:46:29
>> That's what I'm thinking. That's what I
01:46:30
would have said.
01:46:30
>> Yeah. Like what are you to Yeah. And 15
01:46:34
years ago like I would have got up. I
01:46:35
would have said something. He would have
01:46:37
said something and would be each other's
01:46:39
noses, you know, and it would have been
01:46:40
a thing.
01:46:41
>> I look at him and I think, how hurt must
01:46:47
he be to be saying that to someone who
01:46:51
is just sitting on a beach offering free
01:46:53
help,
01:46:53
>> trying to do good?
01:46:54
>> Yeah. How hurt must he be?
01:46:56
>> Yeah.
01:46:56
>> And so I sat there and I sent him love.
01:46:59
I sent him love and I just like I hope
01:47:02
whatever is hurting you dissipates
01:47:05
please.
01:47:06
>> And then I just went back to doing what
01:47:08
I was doing.
01:47:11
>> I now use that as a teaching story.
01:47:14
Had I not been needing to use it as a
01:47:17
teaching story, I would have forgotten
01:47:18
about it within a short amount of time
01:47:20
>> and just let that go. Whereas
01:47:24
a decade, 15 years ago, that would have
01:47:28
haunted me for a week, a month,
01:47:31
>> just enraged every time you think about
01:47:32
it.
01:47:33
>> I just still would have been enraged
01:47:34
about that, right? But with the ability
01:47:36
to regulate your nervous system and
01:47:37
observe your thoughts, you can move your
01:47:39
way through those situations vastly
01:47:42
easier.
01:47:42
>> Yeah, I reckon that that's one thing um
01:47:44
my experience with depression probably
01:47:46
gave me like more compassion.
01:47:48
>> Yeah. Like if if someone's like that,
01:47:50
I'm like, "Fuck, that person's got some
01:47:51
[ __ ] going on." Yeah.
01:47:52
>> Whereas in the past, I would have been
01:47:54
like, "That motherfucker."
01:47:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%.
01:47:57
>> Yeah. Um, what's your inner voice like
01:48:00
these days? Is it mostly good?
01:48:02
>> Nah, I fight with my inner voice every
01:48:05
single day.
01:48:07
>> See, it's it's it's [ __ ] Dave. So, so
01:48:09
you've done you've done so much work, so
01:48:11
much introspection. You you've got the
01:48:13
tool kit all sorted. You do all the
01:48:14
right things, and yet you you still have
01:48:16
periods where you have suicidal
01:48:17
thoughts. Yeah. So the suicidal thoughts
01:48:19
were directly about last about last year
01:48:22
and about that time. So I don't have
01:48:23
suicidal thoughts at the moment or
01:48:24
anything, but like I fight every day
01:48:27
trying to not feel like a failure. Like
01:48:30
I feel like a failure every single day.
01:48:32
>> Yeah. Why?
01:48:33
>> Um because I'm twice divorced. Uh right
01:48:37
now I'm living at my parents house. Um I
01:48:40
get on brilliantly well with my parents.
01:48:42
I live downstairs in like an apartment
01:48:45
type thing um with a view of the
01:48:47
mountain in Tonga. Um like it's a
01:48:50
awesome place to be, but I still feel
01:48:52
like a loser for being there, even
01:48:53
though I love getting to spend time with
01:48:55
them since I haven't for so long. And
01:48:57
I'm literally just waiting until my
01:48:59
house sells in Mexico. But my brain
01:49:01
still says failure. Um yeah, because um
01:49:04
I don't have a partner. I feel like a
01:49:06
failure because um I'm not as wealthy as
01:49:12
I thought I would be at this stage. Uh
01:49:15
because even though like I'm selling a
01:49:18
house, I'm going to have money in the
01:49:19
bank. Like still all of these thoughts,
01:49:22
>> you know, just end up in my head and
01:49:25
like I know my brain doesn't shut off
01:49:29
because of my ADHD. I know that my head
01:49:33
injuries do lead to um thoughts that I
01:49:36
know are not mine, but that's also not
01:49:38
unique. Right?
01:49:41
That's sort of one of the really best
01:49:43
parts of that meditation, that observing
01:49:45
your thoughts is understanding that you
01:49:47
are not your thoughts.
01:49:49
>> Like your thoughts are just like some
01:49:51
crazy electrical impulses that are
01:49:53
bouncing around through weird reasons.
01:49:56
But when you can separate that, you
01:49:58
know, into what scientists call
01:50:00
consciousness, you know, um, other
01:50:03
people might call a soul, you know, when
01:50:05
your soul looks down and views that,
01:50:09
you're like, "Stop talking shit." Like,
01:50:12
I think I'm fat.
01:50:15
Like, I'm not
01:50:17
right. Um, like there's this there's
01:50:20
just all of these things that
01:50:21
consistently run through my brain. And I
01:50:23
don't know if my brain is different to
01:50:24
anybody else's. I don't know if this is
01:50:27
what other people feel like at home, but
01:50:30
this goes back to what we're talking
01:50:31
about is that all I can do is tell these
01:50:33
stories of this is how I feel.
01:50:36
>> And if you feel the same way, bro,
01:50:38
you're not alone.
01:50:40
>> Like this is but this is what I do to
01:50:43
deal with these thoughts every day.
01:50:45
>> Yeah.
01:50:45
>> And so I have good days. Like I have a
01:50:47
good life. My life is rad. I have good
01:50:50
friends. I do cool stuff. Like my life
01:50:53
is awesome.
01:50:55
But I still have these thoughts.
01:50:57
>> Well, I think everyone does. E,
01:50:58
everyone's got [ __ ]
01:50:59
>> Surely. Yeah,
01:51:00
>> surely.
01:51:01
>> Um, what are your biggest flaws?
01:51:07
>> H. Yeah, we got a while. Sweden.
01:51:12
Uh,
01:51:15
I am
01:51:17
self centered.
01:51:20
Now,
01:51:22
we are all self-centered. We're all the
01:51:24
our self is the center of the universe
01:51:26
literally. Um,
01:51:30
selfish is the definition of selfish is
01:51:33
to put yourself first to the detriment
01:51:35
of others.
01:51:38
And I am very self-centered as in like
01:51:41
freedom is my um my number one thing.
01:51:45
And so I want to be able to go and do
01:51:47
what I want when I want, you know, fly
01:51:50
in, fly out, just, you know, have that
01:51:52
freedom. And occasionally it can
01:51:56
unintentionally
01:51:58
border on selfish.
01:52:00
>> Um especially like with a partner
01:52:03
>> like I So I'm sitting here you ask me
01:52:05
that question. I'm like what would Libby
01:52:07
say?
01:52:08
>> Um and so yeah I can be selfish
01:52:12
>> in that way. Um, I can be
01:52:15
um not thoughtful
01:52:18
because I get so
01:52:21
carried away in my ideas.
01:52:24
>> Is that the ADHD?
01:52:25
>> Yeah, I I don't even know. I think so. I
01:52:27
just get so carried away and I get and
01:52:30
it is ADHD, right? So, it's um that's
01:52:32
the hyperfocus. Like I'll get caught up
01:52:35
in something and then just be like zoom
01:52:38
in on that and everything else in my
01:52:40
world disappears. And that could be
01:52:42
people, that can be responsibilities,
01:52:44
that could be all sorts of things. And
01:52:46
so I've really got to try and um make
01:52:50
sure I'm aware of that. There is a
01:52:52
really really cool personality test that
01:52:56
I'm going to shout out here. I've got no
01:52:58
affiliation with them and it's free,
01:53:00
which is cool. But I came across it and
01:53:03
it's the one that's nailed me the best
01:53:05
and it's for children. It's literally
01:53:08
for like six to 14 year olds.
01:53:11
And it's based on the Yungian
01:53:13
archetypes, the eight archetypes for
01:53:15
introverted, for extroverted. Um, but
01:53:18
it's also um got MyersBriggs sort of
01:53:21
stuff all under the base. So, it's all
01:53:22
properly done, but it basically tells
01:53:24
you what your uh what animal you are.
01:53:29
And so, there's introverted like there's
01:53:31
pandas, mir cats, um
01:53:35
owls, otter, a whole bunch of things.
01:53:38
I'm a parrot.
01:53:40
I I process my emotions through talking.
01:53:44
I like freedom. I like to fly around.
01:53:47
>> Um, and it's got all these being a
01:53:49
parrot's really cool for lots of
01:53:51
reasons, but one of the best things and
01:53:54
and and how it applies to your question
01:53:57
directly is instead of saying the
01:54:00
strengths and the weaknesses to a child,
01:54:03
>> they say the strengths and the
01:54:05
stretches.
01:54:07
what is what is a stretch for you to do?
01:54:09
What is out of your uh comfort zone? And
01:54:13
so those things are a stretch for me. Um
01:54:16
and in my stretches, it's like you're a
01:54:20
[ __ ] mess. You're all over the show.
01:54:22
You need to have It says stick with wise
01:54:25
friends.
01:54:27
>> It says stick with pandas, mircats, and
01:54:29
beavers.
01:54:31
Three of my best friends are pandas. my
01:54:34
best best friend uh is a beaver and my
01:54:37
ex-wife is a beaver. And so surrounding
01:54:40
myself with those sorts of people who
01:54:44
can call me out on my [ __ ] point out
01:54:47
what I need to work on, but really
01:54:49
support me through that is a really
01:54:52
really powerful thing for me
01:54:54
understanding what I am, which is what's
01:54:56
called external awareness. Right? So you
01:54:58
have internal self-awareness and
01:54:59
external self-awareness. And these are
01:55:02
people
01:55:03
who are what what are called in
01:55:05
psychology um a loving critic and to be
01:55:09
a loving critic you have to have three
01:55:11
things. You have to have a mutual level
01:55:12
of respect for each other. You have to
01:55:14
have the best interest at heart and you
01:55:18
have to be willing to tell them the
01:55:20
truth
01:55:22
>> which you know quite often a partner
01:55:24
might not be a loving critic because
01:55:26
they don't have that third thing.
01:55:27
They're not willing to tell you the
01:55:28
truth for fear of the consequences. And
01:55:30
so I'm lucky that I have a few loving
01:55:33
critics in my life that can help point
01:55:34
out those stretches or weaknesses for me
01:55:37
so I can observe them, work on them, and
01:55:40
and try and be better for it.
01:55:41
>> Yeah. Do you think um Yeah. Would you
01:55:44
want to get married again?
01:55:46
>> Yeah. [ __ ] it.
01:55:48
>> My third wife has got to be the best
01:55:50
one.
01:55:50
>> Third time's a charm or something. Um,
01:55:52
no, but I I suppose it's Yeah, I'm I'm
01:55:55
pleased that that's your answer because
01:55:56
it it does open yourself up to the up to
01:55:58
the risk of feeling like more of a
01:55:59
failure if it doesn't work.
01:56:00
>> Oh, yeah. Like 100%. Like I am I am a
01:56:04
lover and not a fighter. Um
01:56:08
uh despite having uh two marriages, if
01:56:11
you talk to my ex-wife Libby, she will
01:56:13
tell you that I am a a really good human
01:56:15
and a really good partner and husband.
01:56:18
And um like I
01:56:22
you know, for the last year, I um
01:56:25
definitely
01:56:27
wasn't ready to date or or do anything
01:56:29
like that, but especially towards the
01:56:31
end of last year, I processed so much
01:56:34
and um sort of coming out into this
01:56:36
year, like I'm actually kind of ready to
01:56:38
date now.
01:56:39
>> So, please send in your applications,
01:56:40
ladies. Um I'm sure I sound awesome
01:56:43
after all of this stuff.
01:56:46
Um
01:56:47
but but uh like yeah like I I absolutely
01:56:51
will be in a partnership again sometime
01:56:53
because like I I will add value and and
01:56:56
I definitely need to stick with wise
01:56:58
friends. So it'll probably be a panda or
01:57:01
a mircat or a beaver that that I end up
01:57:03
with.
01:57:04
>> Yeah. What about um future goals? Like
01:57:05
where do you see yourself at 50 55?
01:57:08
Um,
01:57:11
it's weird like you said, I am a I am a
01:57:13
a rack tour. I'm all about I don't even
01:57:16
like I don't have a real job, you I mean
01:57:19
I I I do all of my speaking. I'm an
01:57:21
author and a speaker I guess is my job,
01:57:23
but it's not a real job. I just sort of
01:57:25
do things and um
01:57:28
that makes it hard to really figure out
01:57:31
who you are and what you're doing. And
01:57:33
so like I have only recently
01:57:42
found a new idea that is going to really
01:57:46
be a point of purpose for me. It's
01:57:49
outside of the mental health space, but
01:57:51
it's also very mental health related.
01:57:53
Um, and it's um it's a business that I
01:57:57
haven't like made made yet, but I'm
01:57:59
going to. Uh, I'm just putting some
01:58:01
people together to do it. Uh, but it's
01:58:04
got a name. It's called Side Quests. And
01:58:06
it's basically about helping people
01:58:08
experience life more by going out and
01:58:11
doing cool and interesting things,
01:58:13
small, big, gigantic.
01:58:15
And that's just kind of what I do and
01:58:18
how I live my life. And because people
01:58:19
are forever asking me, well, how do you
01:58:21
do cool [ __ ] all the time? I was like,
01:58:23
well, I choose to. And I identified sort
01:58:27
of three of the problems that I see and
01:58:29
uh I have a way that I am going to
01:58:32
overcome those for people and allow them
01:58:35
to do more cool stuff. And it's like
01:58:38
that's just something that I could see
01:58:39
myself doing for a long time cuz it
01:58:42
would bring me such joy. the the
01:58:46
facilitation
01:58:48
of joy in others is a major thing that
01:58:54
that drives me and makes me happy. And I
01:58:58
do that through my mental health stuff,
01:59:01
but I could also do that through a
01:59:02
business as well. Like I will never ever
01:59:06
ever ever
01:59:08
get sick of people coming up to me and
01:59:11
going, "I read your newsletter. I read
01:59:15
your book. I heard you at a thing and
01:59:17
then I did this and now my life is
01:59:19
better because of it. Never will I get
01:59:21
sick of that. And every time like
01:59:25
because I have these doubts
01:59:27
consistently. This was a Libby thing and
01:59:30
she made me do it and it was really
01:59:32
quite brilliant. There's two things.
01:59:33
One, she said every time someone sends
01:59:37
you something nice, you have to put it
01:59:38
in a spreadsheet and put a dollar value
01:59:40
next to it. And so, how much is
01:59:44
somebody's life worth? Because I get
01:59:47
people sending me stuff all the time.
01:59:48
You saved my life. And so, I put that in
01:59:51
a spreadsheet
01:59:53
and like we just
01:59:56
>> It's priceless, isn't it?
01:59:57
>> Yeah, it is. It is priceless. Um, like
02:00:00
literally, and I don't mean to
02:00:01
trivialize anyway, but I think I put
02:00:02
like $5 million. Like, that's for me.
02:00:05
Like, I get $5 million for saving
02:00:07
someone's life, right?
02:00:08
>> And so, I started putting like imaginary
02:00:10
dollars. And so I just started putting
02:00:12
these all in and and I stopped doing
02:00:14
that. But what I continued to do was I
02:00:17
have a folder on my um on my computer
02:00:22
that is nice things people have said.
02:00:24
And so every time someone sends me an
02:00:26
email, I screenshot that like you helped
02:00:30
me do this, you saved me from this, you
02:00:32
did this. And I put it in there and I
02:00:34
[ __ ] bank it. like I bank it because
02:00:37
it means so much to me and I could never
02:00:41
stop doing it because I get so much joy
02:00:45
and satisfaction out of being able to
02:00:46
make a small difference in what's going
02:00:49
on in this world.
02:00:50
>> Oh, that's so gratifying.
02:00:52
>> If your parents were sitting here now,
02:00:54
what three words would they use to
02:00:56
describe you?
02:00:58
>> Um, my mother would say painful.
02:01:02
>> What does that mean? Like like annoying.
02:01:05
Yeah. Yeah. Like I've been the bane of
02:01:08
my mother's life since I was a child.
02:01:10
Like frustrating maybe painful
02:01:13
frustrating or something like that. Like
02:01:16
so my mother
02:01:19
uh she is a beautiful and lovely woman
02:01:21
but she is not like me and
02:01:27
my entire life I have made her afraid
02:01:31
because I have been like jumping off
02:01:34
cliffs like no like the one the one
02:01:37
saving grace that she's always had is
02:01:40
that I don't drink and I've never drunk.
02:01:42
So, like she's always like, "At least
02:01:44
he's making clear decisions." They'll be
02:01:46
stupid decisions. Like the amount of
02:01:49
times that I came home like from the ED
02:01:51
with a like a broken limb or something
02:01:53
like that and she's just like,
02:01:56
"What is going on?" So, like
02:01:59
exasperating. Maybe that's what we land
02:02:02
on. So, painful, exating, frustrating.
02:02:04
I'm calling [ __ ] on that. If she was
02:02:06
if she was here,
02:02:07
>> do you know what she would say if she
02:02:08
was actually here? What? She would say
02:02:10
proud.
02:02:11
>> Yeah. M yeah.
02:02:13
>> Um and even that makes me tearary,
02:02:15
right? Like she's proud of me because
02:02:17
she knows everything that I've been
02:02:20
through, right?
02:02:22
>> And so, and by the way, uh camera, I
02:02:26
don't give a [ __ ] that I cry because
02:02:27
everybody should cry more. A thousand%
02:02:30
everybody should cry more. And I'm
02:02:32
crying because my mother is proud of me.
02:02:34
and uh she's proud of me because of
02:02:38
the ability to have things happen
02:02:43
and then navigate my way through that.
02:02:47
Some was slow trudgy navigation, some
02:02:49
was easily slipped through, but like
02:02:52
she's proud that I turn up, right?
02:02:54
That's the thing. I turn like I will
02:02:56
always turn up and I'll figure it out
02:02:58
and I'll get it done.
02:03:00
>> Yeah.
02:03:02
>> What about you? Are you proud of
02:03:03
yourself?
02:03:04
>> That's a harder one, eh? Like,
02:03:07
yeah, you you'd love to just go, "Yeah,
02:03:09
absolutely. So proud of myself." Um, I
02:03:12
look back and I'm like,
02:03:14
like, I have lived a remarkable life.
02:03:17
Like, I've written down a lot of it.
02:03:19
I've had three documentaries made about
02:03:21
it. I've done so much [ __ ]
02:03:25
And I for I forget most of it. Like I
02:03:28
legitimately don't remember half it
02:03:30
unless I use it as a story. Um this is
02:03:34
head injury stuff too. It's like my
02:03:35
memor is a bit screwy. Um like unless I
02:03:39
use it in a story and tell it over and
02:03:40
over and over and over and over again I
02:03:42
forget it and people will remind me
02:03:44
about stuff all the time. Oh [ __ ]
02:03:46
really? That was great. Um
02:03:48
like I just
02:03:51
really understand that there is
02:03:55
only one life.
02:03:57
>> Mhm. And you, this is this main quest
02:04:00
side quest stuff, right? You can choose
02:04:02
whatever you want. And none, none is
02:04:05
none is right and none is wrong. If you
02:04:07
want to choose a main quest of meeting
02:04:10
someone and having three children and uh
02:04:14
just working so that you can provide for
02:04:16
them and just having this life where you
02:04:18
play sport with your mates or you know
02:04:21
go hang out with what like if you want
02:04:23
to do that,
02:04:25
live it. like live all of it and love it
02:04:27
and be grateful for it and be proud of
02:04:29
it.
02:04:31
>> My ex-wife and I had miscarriages. We
02:04:33
wanted to have babies and it didn't work
02:04:36
out.
02:04:37
>> And so I'm now 44 and will not have a
02:04:43
child. Like technically I can.
02:04:45
Technically I can. But I've got to a
02:04:48
place now where like
02:04:51
because it didn't happen, I kind of feel
02:04:53
like that's that's the thing. And my
02:04:56
life has now gone in a direction where
02:04:59
even though I'd be a good father, like
02:05:01
that's not what's in store for me. And
02:05:04
so I actually feel a real sense of
02:05:10
need
02:05:12
to really go and live my life and and
02:05:18
do as much as I can but not to an
02:05:21
extreme level. Just just contribute
02:05:24
>> as as a man who is not held not held
02:05:29
back but has more free time than
02:05:32
somebody with a family.
02:05:33
And so like that's what the next 20
02:05:36
years are going to be for me is more of
02:05:39
the same. Like more of going and doing
02:05:42
stuff and trying to like my job is to
02:05:46
figure me out because like I said, I'm
02:05:49
not special.
02:05:51
And so if I figure me out a little bit,
02:05:54
I'm probably helping a whole bunch of
02:05:56
other people figure themselves out and
02:05:58
shortening the journey for them to that
02:06:01
space. And the more amount of journeys I
02:06:04
can shorten to epiphanies, the the the
02:06:08
happier I'll be.
02:06:09
>> Yeah. I found an old article from the um
02:06:12
Bay of Plenty Times in 2017
02:06:14
>> and your quote is depression is the best
02:06:16
thing that's ever happened to me.
02:06:18
>> Yeah.
02:06:18
>> Yeah. Still still agree with that.
02:06:20
>> Yeah. 100%.
02:06:22
>> Um
02:06:24
again like you know you know icky guy
02:06:27
the concept of icky guy.
02:06:29
>> Yes.
02:06:29
>> Yeah. Uh, so it's basically the
02:06:31
intersection of I'm trying to remember
02:06:33
this right now. What the world needs,
02:06:37
>> what you're good at,
02:06:40
um, what, uh, you can be paid for, and
02:06:44
what you're passionate about, right? So,
02:06:46
there's lots of things you can be
02:06:47
passionate about, the world ain't paying
02:06:49
you for.
02:06:50
>> There's lots of things you can be
02:06:51
passionate about, the world doesn't
02:06:52
need, right? And there's lots of things
02:06:54
that um, will pay you, but you're not
02:06:56
passion and all of that. Right? So I am
02:06:58
quite lucky that I have that depression
02:07:04
stumbled me into my icky guy and icky
02:07:08
guy translates to reason for waking up
02:07:10
in the morning.
02:07:13
>> I work in this space cuz I am passionate
02:07:16
about it even when it paid me barely
02:07:19
anything.
02:07:21
>> But now that I'm pretty good in this
02:07:23
space, it pays me so I can make a living
02:07:26
out of it.
02:07:28
and the world needs it.
02:07:31
And so
02:07:35
I am just really grateful,
02:07:39
like immensely grateful that I've ended
02:07:43
up
02:07:45
really
02:07:46
through no fault of my own
02:07:51
in this place. Um, and so I'm just going
02:07:53
to keep riding that wave.
02:07:55
>> Yeah. Well, good on you. Hey, thank you
02:07:57
so much for coming on the podcast today.
02:07:58
This has been great.
02:08:00
>> So many so many lessons, so many
02:08:02
takeaways. Um, yeah. Yeah, I appreciate
02:08:06
it and I can't wait to see what the
02:08:07
future brings.
02:08:09
>> Hopefully, it's um that most of it is
02:08:11
spend in that um 80 to 100.
02:08:13
>> 100%. That's that's exactly where I want
02:08:15
to live.
02:08:16
>> Yeah. Oh, you're a good man. Thanks so
02:08:17
much.
